Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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See also: Logged AE sanctions

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
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Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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NorthBySouthBaranof

We're not going to block someone for submitting a terrible BLP to AFD. Nobody cares about this except GG partisans on both sides. Please edit the encyclopedia or find another website to use to argue. Gamaliel (talk) 18:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning NorthBySouthBaranof

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Pudeo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[1] nominating the article for deletion
[2] participating in the AfD discussion
[3] participating in the AfD discussion
[4] removal of inquiry from his own talkpage (i.e. refusal to dicuss the issue)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The remedy states that: "Any editor subject to a topic-ban in this decision is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, (a) Gamergate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed."

The nomination was about Chanty Binx (Google search results about her), a feminist who has gained Internet-fame after arguing with men's rights activists in Toronto in 2013. It is thus a gender-related dispute or controversy, and even directly Gamergate-related due to the "meme-status" which can be confirmed by combining the full name or nickname as indicated in the "Knowyourmeme.com" article and "Gamergate". I do agree with the outcome of AfD (it's best fit in the forementioned site, not Wikipedia). However, there's no doubt that the person in question is very notable in Internet feminism-related disputes and her video in Youtube, which I will not link for possible BLP reasons, has over 1 million views.

NorthBySouthBaranof also removed an inquiry by another user on his talk page (4th diff). This is aggravating in my opinion because raising an issue on someone's talkpage is the first, and these days without RFC/U, pretty much the only way for dispute resolution. Hence posting here. --Pudeo ' 01:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion whether it's directly related to Gamergate is actually besides the point since the remedy is about "gender-related dispute or controversy -- broadly construed". I just mentioned that "inofficially" it even is related, well obviously, since Gamergate is about people opposing feminism and men's rights activists is about people opposing feminism so it has much of the same audience. And as I just mentioned, it's gender-related disputes broadly construed, I don't think there's any question that a an AfD about a feminist activist wouldn't fit in to the category. Nothing else to add.--Pudeo ' 02:59, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning NorthBySouthBaranof

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

I stumbled on the page in question doing standard new-pages patrol. It was a wholly-negative biography of a living person sourced only to an unacceptable source (Know Your Meme) and utterly failed our basic content standards for biographies. The question of whether it might be a "gender-related controversy" didn't even cross my mind — the fact is, the page wasn't an acceptable biography of a living person. Even with other putative sources added, it appeared to me that there was no possibility of writing an encyclopedic biography of the person, so I nominated it for deletion and briefly engaged in discussion. It was at that point — one week ago — that another long-time user in good standing privately reminded me of the topic ban and that it might be construed as a violation. I recognized the issue, heeded the advice, disengaged from the deletion discussion and took no further part in editing the article, which has since been deleted by a clear and overwhelming consensus that it is unsuitable for the encyclopedia.

On the other hand, the "another user" Pudeo refers to is an obvious SPA troll/sock account with a grand total of three 0-byte articlespace contributions 7 months ago who somehow "magically" leaped into discussion of an AfD and a topic-ban. I decline to engage in any conversation with obvious trolls.

The record speaks for itself and the chips will fall where they may. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do want to comment that the "Google result" argument is absurd on its face. I don't make a habit of obsessively appending "Gamergate" to all my Google searches, like DHeyward and Pudeo apparently do. A simple Google or Google News search for the article subject reveals absolutely nothing to connect this to "Gamergate," and what a non-notable Canadian feminist has to do with "ethics in video game journalism" escapes me. I did not have not and never will read the "KnowYourMeme" article Pudeo refers to, because nothing in that article can ever have relevance to Wikipedia content. All I needed to see was that the only sourcing was to KYM, and that was enough to know it was unacceptable for Wikipedia.

The first person to utter the word "Gamergate" in the context of this article was Pudeo, here. The second person was DHeyward, also here. No other user in any point anywhere on the encyclopedia claimed any connection between this article and "Gamergate." If there is someone here fomenting "GG drama," that person is not me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The purported "Google News" hit DHeyward claims is a user comment on an entirely-unrelated article that nowhere mentions Binx. The fact that an anonymous Internet user calls a person "anti-GG" in an anonymous Internet comment thread does not make that person "Gamergate-related" — or else effectively anything in the entire world could be "Gamergate-related." You're seriously reaching here, DHeyward. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The IP appears to be mistaken on several levels; for one, the account they purport to link with me is not banned. Their paranoiac ramblings about some secret "mailing list" are similarly nonsensical. I ask that a clerk or administrator strike their comment as an unfounded personal attack.

If DHeyward wishes to comment about "drama," he had best look in the mirror. This is the true result of the topic ban — I have a malicious band of anonymous trolls following me around the encyclopedia searching for any excuse to create drama — even an AfD and an article that I haven't edited in a week. None was to be found on this subject until they interjected themselves. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:18, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

I noticed this at ANI (permalink). That report was opened by an account with a total of 7 edits made six months ago. The same account posted at NorthBySouthBaranof's talk. Asserting that NBSB's removal of that post was a "refusal to dicuss the issue" is very unrealistic. If there is an issue, why didn't an established editor raise it? Why didn't Pudeo or anyone else watching ANI discuss it with NBSB? The answer is that there is nothing to discuss—the article was an WP:ATTACK, should have been deleted, and was deleted.

The AfD proceeded smoothly and the community endorsed NBSB's action by deleting the article with a very solid consensus. I examined the article and would have advised NBSB to disengage if I thought the "gender-related dispute or controversy" claim was reasonable. I could not see such a dispute—it looked like a standard attack article where the subject protested during a lecture at a university and was heckled and criticized afterwards. Not a "dispute or controversy", but a flash-in-the-pan incident commemorated with an obviously inappropriate BLP. The article I recall did not phrase the issue as a feminist versus men's rights activists—if the Internet searches mentioned above show that such a connection exists, they should be discounted as it is not reasonable to go beyond how the topic was expressed on-wiki. Johnuniq (talk) 02:03, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DHeyward

This is obviously more GamerGate nonsense as the Google result shows and NBSB should know that GamerGate topics are off-limits. It's exactly what his Topic Ban covers. NPP and BLP are specious reasons for creating the GG drama of an AfD started by a topic banned editor. No different then those GG topic-banned editors proposing deletion of Quinn or any number of other articles related to GG. --DHeyward (talk) 02:06, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, my search is this and doesn't include Gamergate[5]. It returns gamerGate though. I had no idea who she was until I searched and GG nonsense came back. --DHeyward (talk) 02:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rhododendrites

I don't have any great reason to believe the subject of the AfD has any obvious connection with GamerGate, but it would seem to fit into the category of "gender-related controversy". The article was primarily about a video of the subject's conflict with men's rights advocates. She was engaging them on the subject of feminism and its relationship with men's rights and the interaction became heated. The article was also about the harassment she received afterwards, stemming directly from the video. Even a quick glance at the sources shows the subject to be inextricably linked to both feminism and antifeminism. In fact, she's probably best known for a meme based on the video used broadly to caricature/ridicule feminists.

However, there is an exception to such topic bans for "obvious" BLP violations (WP:BANEX). As far as I know that exception applies to GG sanctions, too. The article was about a subject of ridicule and harassment who is currently reported to be in hiding, and even the small amount of text in the article that wasn't a basic description of events included a negative judgment of her representation of feminists. Every one of the sources was unusable per WP:BLPSPS and the topic was a pretty clear WP:BLP1E.

As for whether all of this constitutes "obvious" violations, well, to be honest I'm not certain -- and for that reason I feel a little weird making this my first AE post. I don't follow AE much so don't have a great handle on what precedent is for gray area like this. But I did spend some time with this article and the AfD, and know that, at least from my perspective, I saw major red flags that some might consider "obvious". — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by PeterTheFourth

I participated in this AfD. I believe there are probably valid WP:BLP based exceptions to the topic ban if it is determined that this article falls under the purview of the topic ban, given that people were raising concerns that it was a attack page at the deletion discussion. PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:11, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IP

If Mark Bernstein shows up then we'll have nearly the entire gang of "usuals" magically showing up to defend each other. May as well get rid of the topic ban since this all seems to be part of the plan.

For fuck's sake, he was already site banned under his previous account for his bullshit. Everyone knows who he is, what he is and how he'll continue to behave and give a giant middle finger to anyone not on his mailing list.

Statement by MarkBernstein

The unsigned comment above, attributed to "IP", is interesting. The phrase, "for fuck’s sake” -- is that perhaps related to the current Case Request, in which an exasperated admin said something like this?

If discussing whether or not Chanty Binx merits a Wikipedia biography falls under the ambit of "gender-based controversies", then in fact the biography of any woman who has every expressed an opinion falls under that ambit. If ArbCom had wished the topic ban to encompass "all biographies of women" or "all biographies", they were perfectly capable of doing so.

This complaint is not intended to prevent disruption.' It is itself disruptive. In point of fact, it’s being coordinated at the Gamergate boards, originally launched by that charming fellow whose user name recalls the sweet, sweet music of Nazi dive bombers exterminating Spanish civilians.

For shame. MarkBernstein (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating how Gamaliel’s close was just undone by an editor so new that they followed they unclose at WP:AE by taking a moment to create a user page. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by a procrastinating Brustopher

I've been trying to stay away from Wikipedia for the past month or so, but I really must oppose any block here. The article was utter crap, initially largely negative and a blatant case of BLP1E. Perhaps not a "blatant BLP violation" of the sort traditionally meant by WP:BANEX but definitely not a disruptive move that he should be punished for. I'd disagree with User:DHeyward that this is comparable with GGers AfDing Zoe Quinn, as this was a blatant BLP1E case where the article clearly should have been deleted. If NBSB had nominated TFYC or something along those lines at AfD while topic banned, that would have been a completely different story.

I'll also note that the GG topic ban is very broad and everyone and their mother seems to (presumably accidentally) breach it at some point or another. I've seen multiple editors that are far more sympathetic to GG than NBSB breach their "broadly construed" topic bans, but none of them ever get dragged to AE for it. I'd ask the peanut gallery to consider this next time they complain about NBSB allegedly being immune to sanctions.

NBSB clearly did the right thing according to BLP policy, and drew attention to a crap, obscure, negative BLP article that may likely have avoided attention had he not intervened. To block him for this would be petty, bureaucratic and encourage the persistence of bad BLP articles within the encyclopedia. Bosstopher2 (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning NorthBySouthBaranof

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ollie231213

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Ollie231213 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ollie231213 (talk) 23:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic Ban from Longevity broadly construed, imposed at

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive186#Ollie231213, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/Log/2015#Longevity

Administrator imposing the sanction: Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [6]

Statement by Ollie231213

The reason that I was topic banned was because, in the admins' words, I am "clearly here to advocate for a specific position on longevity articles rather than following our long standing policies and guidelines" and that I am "consistently editing articles, and voting in AfDs, to favor the position of the Gerontology Research Group [which] is incompatible with the goals of Wikipedia."

These are accusations which I strongly deny. The implications here are that I am not following Wikipedia policy and am affiliated with the Gerontology Research Group, both of which are false. I explained very clearly in my statement why I believed I was following Wikipedia policy, but these arguments appear to have been ignored.

Let me use an example here: we can probably all agree that an organisation like the New York Times is, generally speaking, considered a reliable source for many things on Wikipedia. However, what if we're dealing with a specialist topic area - astronomy, for example? Are you going to argue that the NYT is an equally reliable source on that topic as NASA is? What normally happens is that, for stories about astronomy, news organisations simply report what NASA has said. They don't do the research themselves. If the NYT published a story claiming that a new star had been discovered, but no authoritative bodies such as NASA had verified the claims, would we just add that to Wikipedia without even a footnote?

Well, the GRG is to gerontology what NASA is astronomy. Just look at how many times you see news organisations say "...according to the Gerontology Research Group" in stories about the world's oldest people - these are just a few: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. Lots of other sources clearly consider the GRG to be an authority in the topic area. All I am saying is that Wikipedia should reflect this and base its articles on longevity primarily on this source and not on other less-reliable ones.

For example: Yasutaro Koide, recognised by the GRG and Guinness World Records as the world's oldest man, died recently aged 112. However, the previous day, a man named Andrew Hatch died at the claimed age of 117, according to this source (which might generally be considered reliable). However, he was not able to prove his age so was not recognised by Guinness and the GRG. So what happens here? Do we treat both sources as equally reliable and say that both were the oldest man?!? No, Guinness and the GRG are clearly more reputable and widely-recognised as authorities in this topic area than the Contra Consta Times. I'm not saying don't include Andrew Hatch at all on Wikipedia, but include him as a "longevity claim" and not as if his age is definitely true.

So, just to summarise: I made it very clear in my statement in the initial request that I am following Wikipedia's policies. I just want Wikipedia's articles on longevity to based on the best sources, and don't want unverified information to be included as if it is fact. My edits in the past have been in line with WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:BESTSOURCES, WP:NOR, and WP:RSCONTEXT. I don't see how I can be justifiably topic-banned when I've clearly explained why I am following policy and am acting in good faith. And, should the ban be repealed, I promise to act in a more civil manner in the future. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 23:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Ollie's assertion that we should "base its (Wikipedia) articles on longevity primarily on this (GRG) source and not on other less-reliable ones." goes right to the heart of why he must stay topic banned. GRG is not a super source of absolute WP:TRUTH that must be used to the general exclusion of all other RS. --> I have explained very clearly what my point of view is here and explained why it is in line with policy. I am not suggesting that other sources be excluded, just that they are not given the same weight as sources which are considered authorities on the subject according to mainstream consensus. It should be clear to anyone wishing to write good encyclopedic articles that you cannot treat all sources as if they are equally valid. Again, how on earth can I be topic banned for simply suggesting that the most reputable sources on a specialist subject should be the primary source used to write articles on Wikipedia? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 01:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I don't understand how this works - how is this a "fair trial" if just some editors turn up and comment but not others? Am I allowed to request input from someone who will likely defend me? (And a number of respected users have, by the way). If not, how do we get both sides of the argument? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 01:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Spartaz If the only opinions that matter are those of the uninvolved admins, then why is anyone else even allowed to comment? I'm not going to canvass support but it seems totally unfair that there is no systematic way of dealing with appeals like this. Where's my lawyer? Other editors have expressed frustration at the behaviour of LegacyPac and others (see here). Now, can you please provide evidence that I am editing to "advocate for the GRG position"? The implication is that there is COI but I've clearly explained why that's not true. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 22:01, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@The Blade of the Northern Lights: So yet another editor involved in the longevity WP:BATTLEGROUND, clearly biased against me, arguing in favour of a topic ban, who does NOT explain why my edits have violated policy. It's a strawman to claim that I am arguing that the GRG is the "only and only true source"; I am not. I am saying that other sources clearly recognise that the GRG is an authoritative body on the topic of the oldest people in the world and thus, Wikipedia's articles should be based primarily, but not solely, on that source. If we want to make an article of the top 100 oldest people ever, then it should be based on verified data from the most reliable source that deals with age verification, not on a mish-mash of other sources like news reports on people claiming to be 135 or whatever and then compiled in a jumbled WP:OR, WP:SYNTH mess. This really should be common sense. How can sourcing articles on a specialist subject primarily to specialist organisations, most reliable on the topic, in any way "degrade the quality of the articles"? It's madness. Are you going to topic-ban people who insist that astronomy-related articles should be based primarily on the WP:BESTSOURCES, like NASA, the ESA, etc.? I should hope not, because those editors are the ones following core policy. Now, I repeat again: how is this a fair trial? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 02:06, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Glrx You're quite right, I don't understand why this sanction was imposed, otherwise I wouldn't be appealing it! You also falsely represent my argument. My argument is that I was editing in line with policy. Do you contest this? If so, can you explain why? So far, no one has done so.

Statement by Spartaz

I don't have anything to add beyond what Ed and I said in the original AE. Ollie, the only opinions that have any weight here are the uninvolved admins. Everything else is just noise. Do not canvass others to come and support you. It won't affect the outcome but would be obvious evidence that you are not editing per our accepted norms. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Legacypac

Ollie demonstrates a lack of understanding of wikipolicy in his appeal. If, as he say,s "GRG is to gerontology what NASA is astronomy" we can safely treat GRG as just one of many RS. Our Astronomy article does not even mention NASA (that I can see) and the lead says "Astronomy is one of the few sciences where amateurs can still play an active role" NASA is definitely a great authority but hardly the primary or final authority in astronomy.

If someone wants to write up Andrew Hatch (super old guy) we have good sources and would report he claimed to be 117, has lots of id that verifies that, but did not have a birth certificate because birth certificates were not issued in his region (just as the contracosta times did), they should write it. For completeness, they should also note that GRG would not validate his age. But Hatch is a total red herring as no editor has tried to include him in any table or assert he was the world's oldest man (that I'm aware of).

Ollie's assertion that we should "base its (Wikipedia) articles on longevity primarily on this (GRG) source and not on other less-reliable ones." goes right to the heart of why he must stay topic banned. GRG is not a super source of absolute WP:TRUTH that must be used to the general exclusion of all other RS. (I commented on the AE request that led to the topic ban, not sure if that makes me involved or uninvolved) Legacypac (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights

It will be quite unsurprising that I see no reason to overturn the sanctions here. The amount of energy that's been expended arguing that the GRG is The One And Only True Source^TM on this subject is so enormously wasteful that allowing editors back in who want to continue that fight will only degrade the quality of the articles on human longevity. I don't see where the implementation of sanctions violated any policies, nor do I see how lifting them will be in any way helpful. Therefore, I strongly recommend this be closed with no action and a reminder that brevity is actually a virtue. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:46, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In response, 1. Wikipedia isn't a court of law and 2. my previous points, especially that one about brevity, are reaffirmed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:03, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 3)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ollie231213

Statement by Glrx

Ollie231213's appeal does not show an understanding of why sanctions were imposed. Instead the argument is that GRG should be as respected as NASA and therefore implies the sanctions were improper. The ban should stay. Glrx (talk) 05:43, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Ollie231213

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Prokaryotes

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Prokaryotes

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tryptofish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Prokaryotes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms#1RR imposed :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

January 25, 2016. Revert of January 25, 2016.
January 25, 2016. Revert of January 23, 2016.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

There is an edit notice that displays when editing the page, notifying users of the ArbCom sanctions.
User was a party to the ArbCom case: [14].
Received a "final warning" about GMO editing from MastCell: [15].

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think that this is a self-explanatory violation of 1RR by a user who has been extensively warned before. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For brevity. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Prokaryotes has now replied, and ironically presents this link: [16] as indicating that I am "ignoring" editor consensus. However, the discussion is actually me reaching out to other editors with a compromise, and even saying that I "fully support" an edit that Prokaryotes had made. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Prokaryotes has now said that the two reverts here are his only recent GMO-related edits, a statement that can be seen as patently false simply by looking at the recent edit history at Genetically modified crops. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, the central issue here is 1RR (as opposed to having an argument over content – and indeed arguments over whether the reverts were justified display a failure to understand the central issue here). --Tryptofish (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very happy that the two administrators who have commented as of this time very clearly understand what is going on. Given Prokaryotes' demonstrated lack of understanding of why the 1RR violation is wrong, administrators may want to consider how likely it is that a block will really prevent anything, in that the behavior is likely to continue after the block is lifted. Perhaps a topic ban, something that was explicitly pointed out in MastCell's warning, is really what is needed. And the defenses from other editors illustrate how extensive the problem is. Albino Ferret is even saying that I don't understand NOR, or some such nonsense. There seems to be a belief that if editors on the POV-pusher "side" don't get what they want, then it's OK to violate 1RR to get the content that they want. The initial flurry of AE complaints just after the GMO case has passed, and editors should by now understand what ArbCom meant. AE needs to be firm about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:38, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Prokaryotes has self-reverted, which is obviously a good thing. I wonder if he can convince the rest of us that he understands why this self-reversion was needed, as opposed to doing it in hopes of avoiding sanctions? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

...Considering, for example, this? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Still a problem. Inasmuch as the self-revert was helpful, it seems to have come without any real self-awareness, more like a last-minute effort to avoid trouble here. This comment just made at the article talk page, [17], following a series of similar comments, is completely objectionable in context, and clearly demonstrates that the conduct is continuing unabated, self-revert or no. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MastCell and other admins: I'm continuing to see ongoing problems. Prokaryotes argues incessantly against reliable sources based on bizarre reasons. He objects that one source is not reliable because it was written by one author instead of multiple authors: [18], and objects to another because "GM crops" are supposedly not to be used as foods: [19]. This isn't good faith editing; it's trying to throw anything at the wall to prevent us from citing sources that go against his POV. The purpose of 1RR is not simply to assure that second reverts are self-reverted; it is to prevent editing that hampers consensus. Even though I filed this about 1RR, the editing is happening under DS. Where you ask Prokaryotes to demonstrate that he understands, please do not accept inadequate answers. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I just remembered that your warning to him was already a "final warning". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [20]

A Modest Proposal after Jonathan Swift

Definition of a "final warning": You have been warned, but you can keep on doing it. We will just give you another final warning, and another, and another.
Definition of "1RR": Make as many reversions as you want. Then proclaim at length that you were doing it for a good reason. Then self-revert, and keep on proclaiming that you were right all along.
Definition of "Arbitration Enforcement": Not to be confused with a system for dealing rapidly with violations of decisions made by ArbCom. A place where uninvolved administrators wait for other uninvolved administrators to show up, and for editors to argue at length about why various content considerations mean that 1RR violations are justified.

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Prokaryotes

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Prokaryotes

The second reference is in response to an ongoing OR investigation, which was triggered when an edit from January 23, 2016 readded content previously considered settled, was changed back to a WP:Synthesis/WP:OR. My edit summary, "per talk page, no consensus, dont readd without conclusion of current discussion, see also OR noticebaord discussion"

The OR discussion involves Tryptofish, i had to report him after fruitless attempts to sort this out @talk page, OR noticeboard report. Tryptofish is ignoring any editor arguments in this matter, or alternatives, and it seems he tries to use this request here to remove me from further participating.

I believe that in light of the ongoing OR discussion my second reported ref above should not be treated as a revert. Additionally, i suggest to use this request here as a chance to settle the current ongoing disputes, which would involve Tryptofish and a couple more editors. I state that i thought 24 hrs had past (look at my edit history, hundreds of edits in the past 24h, well it has now almost past).prokaryotes (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@KingOfAces, he is casting very serious aspersions, and here - where he essential frames everybody participating in the current discussion as a climate change denier, among his common theme as fringe. You be the judge Arb. prokaryotes (talk) 00:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Additional i want to state that these ~~two~~ actually four (see aboves Tryptofish response, though all related to the same single content) edits described below as edit warring are my only GMO related edits in a long time. While Tryptofish and KingofAces make GMO edits on a daily routine. prokaryotes (talk) 00:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MastCell, your warnings were not related to 1RR, and given how easy it is to break 1RR, and given this situation a topic ban seems very drastic. Also to my knowledge a final warning should come from Arbcom not as a quick single admin decision, at least that is my impression when lurking around here. prokaryotes (talk) 02:03, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Aircorn, i have self reverted naw. Thanks prokaryotes (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MastCell, can you clarify what you mean with "there is a strong pattern here"? It would be helpful if you cite a Wikipedia guideline. Besides me breaking the 1RR i am not aware of any wrong doing in my 2016 edits. Thanks. prokaryotes (talk) 01:36, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

Was about to request this myself. First, I should point out there was also a previous revert 16:18, January 23 that technically doesn't cross the bright line of 1RR, but gaming of 1RR to keep edit warring has been specifically called by arbs as behavior to deal with by DS.[21]. A common problem can be seen in their edit summaries like, "per talk page, no consensus, dont readd without conclusion of current discussion, see also OR noticebaord discussion" where they try to edit war in their preferred content change that did not have consensus on the talk page (yet citing it as if they did) in order to replace the longer standing consensus version. It's like a reverse WP:BRD where someone tries to claim the status quo cannot remain and their preferred addition must remain even when the new edit does not have consensus.

Prokaryotes' edit warring was also brought up in a separate case they brought forward here that was closed without much comment on them because Prokaryotes withdrew the complaint.[22] Prokaryotes' edit warring had quite a bit of coverage at the ArbCom case too. They narrowly avoided a topic ban by one vote. [23][24]. Opposing arbs generally said the behavior was a problem, but didn't quite reach the point of action at that time.[25] Their edit warring and battleground behavior was the largely last straw on the camel's back that triggered the ArbCom case. Considering their behavior issues have continued even after the warning MastCell gave (mentioned in Tryptofish's request) that they were precariously close to enforcing DS after the case, it doesn't look like there's any other options left. I'd suggest 0RR at a bare minimum, but Prokaryotes has received sufficient warning on impending topic bans due to other things mentioned at the case such as casting aspersions, battleground mentality, a nearly passed ban, that a topic ban would better help prevent disruption at this point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Prokaryotes' claims about me

It looks like Prokaryotes is doubling down on the battleground behavior they were warned about in this very board.[26] For those not involved, I was referring to the real-world issues outlined in sources with general "anti-science" sentiment when it comes to scientific consensus on topics like vaccines, climate change, GMOs, etc and the common themes we see in fringe sources. My comments were mostly referring to subject matter (e.g., tactics). I wasn't addressing editors excluding the bit where I mentioned that some editors were misunderstanding the subject matter. That Prokaryotes takes those comments and tries to paint a very different picture about my comments such as painting everyone as a climate change denier is a huge stretch and continuation of the battleground behavior that almost got them topic banned. I shouldn't need to clarify that further at this point, though it is an ongoing problem in the topic that some editors try to manufacture drama like this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have to echo Tryptofish's reminder that it's still a problem. Given the history and near topic-ban shown at ArbCom with this continuation of behavior even after the self-revert nearly 24 hours later, a short block won't prevent future disruption with that in mind. We're past that point. 0RR or the impending topic ban Prokaryotes was warned about multiple times can though. I'd rather give sanctions a chance instead of doing a GMO 2 case, but we need enforcement of the sanctions to get peace in the topic, especially when editors already warned they were on the brink continue that behavior. Otherwise, civil editors in the topic are going to burn out as battleground behavior and edit warring continues amongst even those that nearly were sanctioned by ArbCom. Admins should consider that the DS are meant to prevent disruption when the history shows it's only been continuing. Kingofaces43 (talk) 07:00, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New developments

Admins, I've unfortunately got to go over the word limit with these new developments, so let me know if you want trimming, a separate case, etc. Essentially, we now have a trainwreck at ANI perpetuated by Prokaryotes. Because we didn't get timely action on this, Prokaryotes has resorted to going to different boards to engage in battleground behavior in a retaliatory fashion, which am I concerned was to avoid scrutiny while their case was open here. Regardless of intended reason (they've never responded) the case should have been opened here so we could actually get some focused scrutiny on my edits.

The short of it is that they are violating WP:NPA by purposely misrepresenting two of my comments at WP:NORN [27][28] incorrectly claiming I am calling editors climate change deniers. The purposeful misrepresentation comes from me directly telling them before they opened the thread and after that those two comments were about content, not editors (i.e., sources describe many of the methods to oppose scientific consensus in this topic as being the same is climate change denial, vaccine controversy, etc.) mainly here here and here. I made it clear my only comments related to editors were: 1. Some editors were misunderstanding some technical details in sources. 2. Mentioning that Prokaryotes' false claim I was commenting on editors as climate-change deniers was a behavior issue (misrepresentation) I wasn't going to mention further so we could focus on content at NORN[29](more on this). They decided to double-down instead to call discussion on content personal insult.

Here are some of my other main comments relating to my intent on my comments if any admins are interested in what's going on with respect to my behavior.[30][31][32][33] If an admin still thinks something is odd on my part, I'll gladly chat with them or even open up a case on myself if they thought it was needed. I don't think it's needed, but I'd abide by such a request so we could get a focused look on what I actually said (my cited comments should make it clear it's very different than Prokaryotes portrays though).

For Prokaryotes though, we have them opening up an ANI case shortly after this AE case opened, repeatedly misrepresenting my comments after being notified many times, false accusations of canvassing at WP:FTN [34] just today, and an overall continuation of the battleground out-for-blood behavior at ANI that nearly got them topic banned at ArbCom with a split vote. That's a continued "lack of insight" as you described MastCell, and I'll also ping EdJohnston on these ongoing behavior issues. This is just continuing the same battleground behavior cited at ArbCom [35] we've always had with Prokaryotes that still don't appear to be improving. Something needs to stop it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David Tornheim

The problem is not Prokaryotes. The problem is that Tryptofish, KingofAces43 and likely also Aircorn want to change language that was already settled upon and had been stable since last August 2015-early September 2015. That language used the term "scientific agreement" to replace "scientific consensus". The stable language was the result of a compromise created and executed here by Jytdog and agreed to by Prokaryotes at this end of this lengthy discussion that I was also involved in. Others like myself saw the change as a slight improvement and allowed it to stand. That language was incorporated in the lead of the Genetically modified crops article here on September 4, 2015. Prokaryotes inadvertently had not revised the language in the body during that edit. That was the status quo ante consensus position on the language in the lead during this dispute. Now the three editors I named want to go back to the disputed "scientific consensus" language, despite significant opposition to the change here, and to the fact that the term "scientific consensus" is little more than WP:OR and WP:SYN explained here.

I will note that this all started when I tried to correct the portion of the body of the article that still had the "scientific consensus" language in it and had not yet been corrected to the agreed upon language with all the other articles back in September 2015. Shortly after I made the correction here, Aircorn put the word "consensus" back in here and in his edit notes suggested the need for yet another RfC. I explained here why I thought that was needlessly causing new problems and was against the former agreement decided months ago at Genetically modified food I explained again the how the agreement came into being again at WP:NOR here.

In summary, the problem is not Prokaryotes, but the other three editors who are working against the agreed upon language and creating drama by so doing. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aircorn wrote: "I was (and still am) unaware of any wikipedia consensus for changing scientific consensus to scientific agreement. I believe the most recent discussion on the issue...was at Talk:Genetically modified food controversies#Scientific consensus?." The first post in that section by Johnfos says: "Most GMF articles on WP, like this one [GM Food], contain the statement that: there is "general scientific agreement that food on the market ...."." [36] This shows that Aircorn was aware that the status quo on the articles had the language "scientific agreement", not "scientific consensus". It is my understand that per WP:PAG (please correct me if I am wrong), stable language in the article is assumed to have consensus by default, even if the previous talk page discussion(s) did not clearly achieve it. Per the essay WP:STATUSQUO, "During a dispute, until a consensus is established to make a change, the status quo reigns." Also in WP:BRD, it says "BRD will fail if...There is a preexisting dispute on the page, by editors with entrenched positions, and you are reigniting a debate that has achieved stalemate without consensus." That is exactly where things stood when the above three editors tried to change the "scientific agreement" language (the WP:STATUSQUO) to "scientific consensus". --David Tornheim (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Aircorn: Thank you so much for owning up to what happened. Very upstanding, and also to the suggestion that Prokaryotes self-revert which s/he did within 21 minutes of your suggestion. If Tryptofish had made that suggestion to Prokaryotes, perhaps this entire AE action could have been avoided. Much appreciated. It makes it much easier to work together when you show such integrity. Thanks again. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This post and this post on the other hand have just the opposite effect, and are directly contradicted by the cooperative behavior of Aircorn and Prokaryotes to resolve the dispute, where each is owning up to their own behavior. How are we to work together when some editors will do anything to try to punish another editor and try to justify a topic ban for someone who they disagree with? It's an attempt to sway consensus by removing anyone who disagrees on content. This WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude and lack of accountability has to stop and is bad for the project. WP:BOOMERANG with a warning is justified for these lasts post and any like them for those continuing to press for more punishment when editors are working together to resolve disputes. This action could have been avoided entirely if the Plaintiff had simply pointed out and warned the Defendant of the 1RR rather than going straight to court. --David Tornheim (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

KingofAces43 mentions this AN/I incident raised by Prokaryotes as if it were problematic. However, many like me agree that the issues Prokaryotes raised are a very real problem that needs to be addressed. Prokaryotes should be applauded, not condemned, for staring that helpful discussion about the unnecessary use of ad hominem comparisons, which resulted in the very productive section with Softlavender's Suggestion which has quite a bit of support. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AlbinoFerret

I also have concerns that Tryptofish and Kingofaces43 are using AE to win a content dispute. Tryptofish has an opinion that Core policies like WP:OR/synthesis can be overcome with a local consensus.[37] in a dispute over a synthesis claim. In fact both editors are arguing to include WP:SYNTHESIS in the GMO articles. Removal of those who wish to follow WP policy would aid in this quest to retain OR. AlbinoFerret 02:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish, excuse me? POV pushers following a comment about me? That is an asperation to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a POV pusher. The only POV I have is that WP policies and guidelines be followed. If you think otherwise you best have some diffs. AlbinoFerret 19:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It appears Prokaryotes followed Aircorn's very good advice and has self reverted the 1RR violation.[38] AlbinoFerret 20:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aircorn

I was (and still am) unaware of any wikipedia consensus for changing scientific consensus to scientific agreement. I believe the most recent discussion on the issue before I partially reverted David was at Talk:Genetically modified food controversies#Scientific consensus?. AIRcorn (talk) 07:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@David. It shows nothing except that Wikipedia is inconsistent. The wording "scientific consensus" has been in the controversies section since October 2013. You made an edit in good faith, I partially reverted in good faith because I did not think there was any consensus. Now we are having this discussion in multiple places. WP:BRD was followed and WP:STATUSQUO would have been too if Prokaryotes had not broken 1rr. AIRcorn (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So I went back through the edit history again and see I made a mistake. I meant to change Davids edit[39] to scientific consensus, but ended up changing the lead one instead.[40] That was a mistake on my part and added to my confusion and possibly to others. Apologies to all. AIRcorn (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Prokaryotes. You still have time to self revert. AIRcorn (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Prokaryotes

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This looks like an unambiguous 1RR violation. Insofar as I can parse Prokaryotes' response, it doesn't seem that either revert meets the criteria for 1RR/3RR exemptions. I already did the final-final-warning thing with Prokaryotes awhile back. Given that, and the fact that there's no evidence of any insight in Prokaryotes' response, I feel a block would be appropriate, but I will leave this open for other admins to comment. MastCell ^Talk 01:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Prokaryotes: It is indeed easy to slip up and unintentionally violate 1RR. I've probably done it myself. If it happens, then the right response is: "Hey guys, I accidentally violated 1RR. My bad. I'll go ahead and self-revert". The wrong response is... well, pretty much anything else. Your response seemed to consist mostly of misguided self-justification combined with criticisms of other editors, both of which are inappropriate when you are the one who has violated a revert restriction. Like many admins, I'm generally willing to cut people a break if they accidentally screw up, but you have to meet us halfway by recognizing that you've screwed up and trying to fix it.
  This particular 1RR violation is moot, at this point, with the self-revert, but the lack of insight that I mentioned in my original comment is, if anything, more apparent, which concerns me because there's a strong pattern here and it's not heading in a good direction. The level of enabling in some of the "outside" comments here is likewise unhelpful, as is the general pro and con content argumentation. I'd be OK with closing this request without action (in light of the self-revert), but with a recognition that there aren't likely to be much additional leeway given to Prokaryotes. Thoughts from other admins? MastCell ^Talk 01:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is a plain 1RR violation. The talk-page consensus may be unclear, but that doesn't give anyone a license to break 1RR. If admins decide that a block is needed, then something between two days and one week would be appropriate. If people keep on reverting the lead of Genetically modified crops then more admin action is likely. Anything that looks like edit warring on GMO pages ought to receive a strong response. EdJohnston (talk) 18:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CFCF

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning CFCF

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: AlbinoFerret (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: CFCF (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#4.3.1 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

26 Jan 2016 Inserts POV caption that does not describe the image "fruit and candy flavored e-liquid may appeal especially to younger users"
27 Jan 2016 Inserts off topic claim (about brain development (children) and is a [[Safety of electronic cigarettes | Safety claim) in the lede, at the beginning of the paragraph (prominent position), that is not in the body of the article. It is also already covered in the Safety article.
27 Jan 2016 Inserts editorial (primary non MERDS) into the article to counter a MEDRS secondary source.
27 Jan 2016 [41] Adds image of illegal drugs and paraphernalia to consume them into the e-cig article relying on fringe source.
27 Jan 2016 Adds a blog post ~~to an< activist site~~[42] from a known anti-tobacco activist (Stanton Glantz, as described in multiple high quality RS [43][44][45][46] [47][48][49][50][51]) that is currently the subject of an RFC.[52] to prove his point. 1/31/2016 Edit Strike, reword, and add RS on activism.
27 Jan 2016 Adds off topic material against consensus in this section.[53] This happened after this section was opened and he was notified.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

12 Jan 2016 Previous AE section where CFCF was warned not to edit against consensus.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Discretionary sanctions mean that editors on a page must adhere to accepted editorial norms and follow policy and guidelines. CFCF is an experienced editor. He is very active on the WP:MEDRS page and had done a lot of editing to it. Because of this he is very knowledgeable on what is and isnt problematic. He should know better than to insert a editorial (primary) to counted a secondary MEDRS source. He should know better than to insert claims at the front of a paragraph in the lede that are not on the page, and not on topic for the page. He should know better than to use fringe sources to link e-cigs to illegal activity. He should know better than to write captions for images that are not about the image to bring in POV about children. But he has chosen to ignore MEDRS and insert POV after POV edit. He is also arguing to keep these POV edits in place. This one is very problematic as it points out a WEIGHT problem along with POV.[54] This one where he argues an editorial in a journal is a position statement.[55] This push to include pure POV without any discussion beforehand or consensus, one after the other is problematic. He has also added multiple images about children, as KimDabelsteinPetersen points out 40% of the images in the article now are about children and vaping,[56] a very POV focused number considering the article states that use by them is low compared to other age groups. AlbinoFerret 17:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In response to CFCF's post I will point out it is against WP:CAUTIOUS which the talk page has been following lately. Pushing POV edits without and contrary to consensus is problematic. I will also point out the deceptive multiple edit diffs he uses. AlbinoFerret 18:46, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified here.[57]

Responses by AlbinoFerret

@MarkBernstein While Stanton Glantz may be a professor, he is also a recognised activist. As found in numerous reliable sources. [58][59][60][61] [62][63][64][65][66] While the whole university site isnt an activist site, his personal blog on the site can be reasonably found to hold his thoughts and agenda. AlbinoFerret 19:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cloudjpk has provided diffs against me. But none of them show anything really relevant to this current situation.

A year ago I discussed if a source with pharmaceutical funding was biased. I do find activists biased, and started a RFC to gain consensus on if the source should have in text attribution (not removal). Both diffs show how editors should solve differences on content on a contentious article, discussion beforehand. Sadly in CFCF's case that was not done.
I thank Cloudjpk for including this diff [67] what it shows is I reverted CFCF editing against consensus of a closed merge discussion that was brought to AE and CFCF was warned not to edit against consensus.
The last link is pretty much ancient history (sadly dragged up to toss mud). The almost a year old section was about me being to active in the topic and editing to much. I took a 6 month self break from the topic. During which time I was just as active in other areas of WP, because I am mostly homebound and have lots of free time. I am no longer as active in the topic and have other interests, including being a NAC on WP:ANRFC where I have closed around 260 RFC's, but still find e-cigs interesting. AlbinoFerret 22:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I believe because of a prior Arbcom section that I was involved in concerning JzG/Guy that he is involved. I have left a message on his talk page.[68] He disagrees and I hope that he recuse's himself from this section. AlbinoFerret 18:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy I will give a link to the Lancet source.[69] I will also point out that it is an "editorial" as can clearly be seen right above the title. Regardless of the respectability of the Lancet, an editorial is a primary source and not WP:MEDRS. Editors should never rely on editorials to counter findings of a secondary source, in this case Public Health England a part of the UK Department of Health.

I will explain the Lancet POV problem. I point out that we have been here before. McNiel wrote a criticism of the Grana review,part of "peer review". The source was said to be primary. In the McNiel case CFCF was against including it. Here is one subsection from that discussion In the case of criticizing a negative review CFCF argued to keep the primary source criticism out, pointing out its not MEDRS . In this case CFCF wants the primary source criticism of a positive review in. This shows a big POV problem. AlbinoFerret 19:32, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning CFCF

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by CFCF

These edits do not constitute anything apart from a departure from the point of view of AlbinoFerret. All edits are properly sourced and I can categorically refute each accusation:

There are a multitude of sources to support that statement, I have used at least three separate WP:MEDRS-compliant sources.
That statement is taken without any alteration from the Centers for Disease Controls website: [70], where is is repeated multiple times. I also chose to add the statement later in the article body, and suggested expanding the article by using the linked website, which is among the highest quality MEDRS-compliant sources.
The Lancet is a recognized medical authority, this statement was written in their name and as such is compliant as per WP:MEDRS
Using a review article as per WP:MEDRS I included a number of images adding to the quality of the article.
This is not a blog post but a comment submitted to the CDC with numerous references and is backed by the University of California Los Angeles Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education. Neither is the inclusion of the authors material the subject of the RfC – but rather if citing him should require attribution as an "anti-tobacco activist". The current RfC reads in favor of no with a vote of 6 to 0 (I have not voted).

I believe it is also important to note that AlbinoFerret chose to revert these edits multiple times, I did not revert back, choosing each time to engage in discussion on the talk page. See reverts: [71], [72], [73].

I am under the firm belief that I chose the constructive approach, following up any controversy with discussion, not reverting. CFCF 💌 📧 18:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Response to KimDabelsteinPetersen

(Kim has a declared connection to electronic cigarettes, disclosure can be seen at the top of the page: Talk:Electronic_cigarette)

2. Brain development is negligible beyond adolescence, at least in the sense of being affected, this is a content dispute about a qualifier, and I do not dispute that it could be included, but the full phrase was removed entirely without discussion.

3. That is a different situation, without the full backing of an editorial board. This is the same reason I chose not to include the multiple critiques in the BMJ Feature – Public Health England’s troubled trail, Analysis – Evidence about electronic cigarettes: a foundation built on rock or sand?. I'm glad to see I was as consistent in 2014.

4. Following another editor removing the image I asked on the talk page if a cropped version would be better [74]. Also note that this is one of two images from the same source which I added, the other which remains in the article. [75]

5. The FDA comment was reposted in full, available in pdf-format here: [76]

CFCF 💌 📧 20:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Starke Hathaway

Having reviewed the diffs, I am not persuaded that CFCF has done anything more heinous than disagreeing with AlbinoFerret in a content dispute. My own independent review of the interactions between CFCF and AlbinoFerret leaves me with more concern over the behavior of the latter than the former. See this for instance. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 18:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TracyMcClark

Once again CFCF has shown today on talk and article space that their purpose in the e-cigs area isn't to build a reasonable NPOV entry but to advocate their personal fundamental opposition to the subject. No surprise here considering the OP's advocacy in the past which already led to sanctions against tem.--TMCk (talk) 19:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MarkBernstein

Is it entirely reasonable to describe a site of the University of California San Francisco as "an activist site"? The author of this particular page is a full professor of medicine. This does have an unfortunate appearance. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by KimDabelsteinPetersen

In reply to the diffs and CFCF's reply to these:

A "multitude of sources" here is unfortunately used to mislead, since what we are interested in, is the prevalence of this argument in the literature. In other words it is a WP:WEIGHT issue. Several sources do state this, but several sources also consider it moot. When combined with prevalence of Think about the children! in controversial issues such as this, then any editor should be cautious when relying on, or promoting such.
The response by CFCF is incorrect, as the CDC page has the added correct context of ".. among youth". Translating such into a generic statement, ie. all agegroups, is problematic. Particularly when this has been pointed out. For background: Nicotine has a detrimental effect on a growing brain, but not on an adult brain (see Surgeon General (2015)).
Here CFCF uses the language "recognized medical authority" where he should have written "recognized medical journal". The Lancet itself is not an authority or a recognized scientific body. What it cooks down to, is that CFCF wants to use a primary editorial source to dispute a secondary review from Public Health England. This is strange because he is against using similar sources in comparable situations[77].
This one is problematic - CFCF wants to place an image of e-cigarettes using illigal drugs, despite the topic being extremely minor in the literature. This seems inline a ecig negative POV as the above.
Here CFCF is using a pressrelease and a blog post to argue a point. Strangely he is arguing on the talk page that the pressrelease is a position statement?!

All in all it seems quite clear to me that CFCF is having difficulty in seperating his personal WP:POV from his work as a wikipedia editor on this article. And that is problematic.

Short response to MarkBernstein: He may be a full professor, but it is still a blog, and the source is still opinion and primary. In fact that particular blog is part of Pf. Glantz activism/advocacy, something which he btw. is well known, and well regarded, for. See the discussion on the talkpage, as well as his BLP article for details. --Kim D. Petersen 20:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And we've now turned from Think about the children!, to lets associate it with drug use[78][79]. I'm not questioning the mention of this in the article, but more the WP:WEIGHT put upon it. And, if i wasn't aware of CFCF's status as a serious medical editor, i would seriously say that he has now turned to the next page in an advocacy handbook. --Kim D. Petersen 20:45, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Noticeable, with regards to the general POV and WEIGHT porblems, should also be the talk page discussion here Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Youth_vaping_images --Kim D. Petersen 20:54, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to the reply from CFCF:
2. The problem is location and weight combined with the lack of qualifier.
3. It really doesn't change anything. An editorial is opinion, it is not a position statement from a scientific body or a secondary review. And the other discussion is actually very like this, since that was the peer-reviewed opinion of several expert scientists within the topic-area, while the editorial board of a journal aren't a) expert in the topic, nor b) peer-reviewed.
4. Pictures carry content - one image from a reference may be uncontroversial, while another from the same reference may be significantly controversial. You really should know this.
5. What difference does it make that it is in PDF format?? It is still unpublished unreviewed opinion of some scientists, sourced from a blog! I'm shocked that you appear to think that PDF is a guidance to reliability. Anyone can send letters - that doesn't make it reliable. --Kim D. Petersen 21:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cloudjpk

I agree with Starke Hathaway [80] AlbinoFerret's complaint and his related history raises more concerns about him.

AlbinoFerret finds reliable sources he disagrees with biased: [81]] [82].

AlbinoFerret deleted text he does not like [83] He claims his change was by consensus, but he deleted a notable source without AFD discussion. He did not not move all the content back to the safety page as he claims. IMO this was gaming the system.

And none of this is new; this is a longstanding pattern [84] Cloudjpk (talk) 22:01, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved JzG

The "blog post" from an "activist site" is actually a submission to the FDA jointly issued by the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, University of California San Francisco and the Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University. It is extensively referenced and although not peer reviewed is clearly an expert opinion and not a mere "blog post".

One of the diffs cited as evidence of evil behaviour also includes this:

The same advertising tactics the tobacco industry used years ago to get kids addicted to nicotine are now being used to entice a new generation of young people to use e-cigarettes,” said CDC Director Tom Frieden, M.D., M.P.H.

The CDC is not some random bunch of activists, and to pretend that citing the CDC is POV-pushing is plainly completely unacceptable.

The complainant also objects to an "editorial primary non-MEDRS" statement contradicting a "MEDRS" source. In fact, the edit in question was an article in The Lancet, one of the most respected medical journals in the world, which pointed out that a figure estimated by Public Health England to be based on "an extraordinarily flimsy foundation" Now, The Lancet does not often go into bat against public health bodies, and Public Health England is not actually a MEDRS, there's been a lot of discussion on opinions by medical and public health bodies and they are not considered reliable to the standard of peer-reviewed articles.

I find it worrying that despite the lengthy arbitration, motivated reasoning of this type is still going on. Wikipedia really doesn't care how fervently you might wish that medical academics were in favour of vaping, the fact is that there are profound and well-founded reservations about it, and it is Wikipedia's policy that these must be adequately reflected in articles. The edits of which AlbinoFerret complains are all entirely defensible and to an independent onlooker they appear to be necessary corrections to pro-vaping activism. This is an area where the evidence base is ambiguous and there is still spirited debate within the scientific community, we definitely should not be trying to protray it as settled one way or another, and balancing statements of the type CFCF added are necessary to maintaining NPOV.

If there is to be an outcome here it should be a topic ban for AlbinoFerret for making vexatious complaints and attempting to abuse Wikipedia process to gain an advantage in a content dispute.

Statement by Kingsindian

I have no opinion on the request except to state that Mystery Wolff should not be commenting here as they are under a topic ban from the area. They are a new user, so they should be advised that topic bans apply to all pages. They should simply avoid commenting on this matter altogether. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LesVegas

First of all, Guy is involved. I'm going to assume in good faith that he is saying he's uninvolved because he doesn't edit on E-Cig or tobacco articles, so he might think he's classified as impartial, but he has definitely been involved in several interactions with Albino Ferret and CFCF that I have seen. One of the more recent ones was when Albino Ferret commented about Guy's behavior at AE here on a GMO case. JzG was also involved in an E-Cig Arbitration Request case where he commented on Albino Ferret, said he supported a topic ban for him, and characterized the E-Cig topic as an unholy confluence of commercial vested interest, emotional commitment, immature medical knowledge and peripheral craziness. Guy and CFCF also both supported topic banning Albino Ferret here and Guy, CFCF, and Albino Ferret have all been involved in a very hot, and very recent dispute on MEDRS, with Guy and CFCF arguing against Albino Ferret's stance there. LesVegas (talk) 01:43, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Johnbod

Just brief comments provoked by the (unsigned) "Comment by uninvolved JzG" above.

The diff in the complaint above [85] is neither "a blog post to an activist site[42] from a known anti-tobacco activist" (Per Albino Ferret) nor "a submission to the FDA jointly issued by the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, University of California San Francisco and the Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University." (per JzG). It is a press release from the "Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, University of California San Francisco" linked to a PDF of the submission [86], which is submitted by 9 academics whose affiliations are footnoted to the "Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, University of California San Francisco and the Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University." The diff (#5 in the list) in fact comes from the talk page of the EC article (a CFCF contribution) not the article itself.
JzG says "In fact, the edit in question was an article in The Lancet, one of the most respected medical journals in the world, which pointed out that a figure estimated by Public Health England to be based on "an extraordinarily flimsy foundation" - as extensively covered on the EC talk page, the "estimate" is from a 2014 paper by 12 academics, which a report commissioned by PHE England from 6 academics (at 113 pages long, much the most comprehensive on the subject) endorsed as the best estimate available. The Lancet's comment has itself been widely criticized.
It is true that "balancing statements of the type CFCF added are necessary to maintaining NPOV" (JzG), but these need to accurate, and I don't think that either CFCF's edits nor JzG's comments are sufficiently so - in common with much else in the WP debate on the subject, including many of Albino Ferret's contributions. Hence the complaint. The ecig talk page is busy and time-consuming to follow but it is fairly effective at grinding through this stuff, and the process should be allowed to continue.
The actual press release/submission deal with very specific US regulatory matters, and US evidence of prevalence etc, and the authors are generally careful to keep qualifying their statements to reflect this. What the submission wants might be summarized as to bring US regulation to what the EU already has in large part. There is also some evidence that prevalence of ecig usage in youth is widely different between the US and elsewhere in the world (higher in US). All editors need to take care not to globalize US-specific material on this. Johnbod (talk) 12:00, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Doc James

Per this edit [87] the image was placed in the section on motivation and was very well referenced. Not seeing what is so horribly wrong with it?
Agree this is not the best place for that content[88] and Albino removed it after a couple of hours [89]
Agree that we should tend to stick with reviews rather than editorials.
This was added to the talk page[90] and uses the CDC and the UCSF as refs. What is wrong with this?

I am just not seeing anything that causes significant concern. This appears to be an attempt by Albino to eliminate those who disagree with them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:14, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Beyond My Ken

I support Guy's suggestion of a topic ban for Albino Ferret for using Wikipedia processes as a weapon in pushing a POV. BMK (talk) 19:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning CFCF

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I propose a three month topic ban for AlbinoFerret for vexatious complaint and attempting to use Wikipedia process to gain an advantage in a content dispute, per my observations above. Guy (Help!) 09:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darkfrog24

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Darkfrog24

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: SMcCandlish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:12, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#All parties reminded; Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Discretionary sanctions; Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive188#Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

23 January 2016 Despite many admin warnings to move on, in previous AE and after ([91], etc.), Darkfrog24 instead attempts harassment by tagteam proxy, trying to recruit a fellow frequent MOS/AT editor (who didn't take the bait and is not a party here) to go after me vexatiously while DF24 cheerleads: "I'm going to be speaking very carefully because I'm the one under topic ban right now. (I.e., is aware [92][93] they're crossing the ban's edge.) "If you want to ... just talk about frustration with SmC, that's one thing. If you have something concrete enough for a formal complaint, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Some of this [material provided by DF24 on the banned-topic] may be corroborating."
23 January 2016 Darkfrog24 posts (in same discussion) material about me and the (temporary) result of my WP:ANEW request about DF24's logical-quotation (LQ) editwarring at MOS and mainspace – the very topic of DF24's ban.
28 January 2016 Further pursuit of same dispute, in user talk, projecting implications that I'm the one harassing, and I'm posting on their talk page (I haven't, since DF24 asked me a question by name there [94], days ago.
22 January 2016 Canvassing admins, after the ban [more diffed in comments section, re: aspersions], to advise DF24 how "to oppose a longstanding Wikimedia MoS rule" and "do [something] about it", i.e. how resume the fight against consensus they were banned for. Editor even changed thread name to refer to their ban in posting this violation of it. A nearly identical message was posted on talk pages of several other admins (JzG, Laser brain, EdJohnston, Thryduulf, etc.), but I have diff limits, and can't insert them all here. It's a whole series of ban violations, showing irreconcilable WP:NOTGETTINGIT and WP:GREATWRONGS. JzG sums it very clearly.
There are other examples, but this should be enough, and I think admins here are already aware of them.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

22 January 2016 Topic ban, from aforementioned AE request, delivered by Thryduulf

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months:

DF24 received a {{Ds/alert}} for WP:ARBATC and warning (not overturned) 6 September 2015, resulting from the aforementioned ANEW request.

Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months: The one that resulted in their ban.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

DF24 is transgressing their ban and WP:ARBATC, perpetuating and more intensely personalizing the AT/MOS dispute central to the ban, seemingly for revenge. Was specifically warned against such behavior (diffs of other warnings also available).

Just before the ban, DF24 wrote: "The way I see it, I've done nothing wrong" [95]. AE already made the problems clear. DF24 blames me for their ban, disputing everywhere the evidence I provided, as if AE admins were unable to assess it correctly.

When I raised these matters with Thryduulf (who said take it to AE), DF24 didn't take the hint (third diff), pursuing it on my own talk page while professing to not want interaction; this defies reason on several levels.

Admins suggested that, DF24 being a professional proofreader, that this an obvious productive area [96], [97]. But DF24 says they mostly can't stand to do it, because WP's punctuation choices are not "correct English". [98]. This fundamentalist, anti-linguistics view is central to the matter – MoS must be changed, no matter what and how long it takes, because it is wrong. This will not be cured by a block of any length. Over six years of tendentious, disruptive campaigning, yet DF24 admits our users don't care about this punctuation trivia anyway [99] Keeping this up is WP:NOTHERE (at least regarding ARBATC).

Third party in the first two diffs (we're interacting well now) isn't involved in the LQ debate, and found the circular rehash of it at WT:MOS tiresome in September. He's just a not-random AT/MOS editor – one to whom DF24 (noting an earlier argument between me and that editor about MOS) has repeatedly cast WP:ASPERSIONS about my mental health, after the ban [100], and after Ds/alert: [101], [102]. Also, a long string of dishonesty allegations (increasing after ban) without evidence, only links to DF24's previous claims and denials [103], [104], [105], [106], etc. Can prove this habit of incivility and gaslighting is much broader, but would need length-limit extension.

Remedy proposed

Given the personalized nature of DF24's continuance of the dispute, the attempts to recruit a previously uninvolved AT/MOS editor to tagteam (see also last AE's evidence of attempt to recruit a new editor to file anti-MOS:LQ RfC on DF24's behalf), and the fact that DF24 has been quite productive in unrelated mainspace and other things since the TB, I suggest the best response isn't the promised block (could make grudgematching worse), but:

Extended topic ban, from the scope of WP:ARBATC (i.e. WP:MOS, WP:AT, and related pages, which involve mostly overlapping issues and editing circles), with a longer time before appeal.

"Walling-off" would remove DF's ability to involve more AT/MOS editors in style-warrior crusading, permits ongoing good editing, and obviates further admin action. DF24 needs to start up a new conversation with other guests in some different room at the Wikipedia party.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

20:14, 28 January 2016 by SMcCandlish

Later responses as needed

Re: Darkfrog24's "defense", I don't think I need to respond to much of anything in it in detail. It's all obvious deflect-and-misdirect handwaving, and a return to the claim that AE admins didn't already look at the evidence presented last time and determine what it meant. The editor clearly refuses to accept that pursuing the same take-down-MoS-editors-who-cross-me battlegrounding pattern that multiple admins warned them to stop pursuing is not okay just because they craftily avoid including the words "quotation marks". Using WP:CIVILPOV techniques to veil emotional-instability and dishonesty insinuations behind wording one can play "CYA" games with when called on it is WP:SANCTIONGAMING (the very "Are you okay?" post DF24 cites as exonerating, is actually just another example of the same "something must be wrong with you" insinuation pattern). A sensible answer would have been "sorry, I just hadn't fully dropped it yet, I have now, and it won't happen again." Instead it's just more attempts to turn AE attention to someone else so the gaming can continue. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 08:32, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: I can certainly voluntarily avoid interacting with Darkfrog24 (was already doing so since Jan. 26). I don't think a mutual interaction ban is justified, and dropped my own suggestion of a one-way IBAN because it would be redundant with the wider TBAN proposed. No problem (much less two-way, or one-way from me) is occurring when I run into DF24 outside ARBATC-scope discussions, e.g. when mutually participating in some random WP:NPOVN thread (Jan. 26). Even in ARBATC discussions that do not touch on the quotation marks thing, I've often bolstered DF24's views, e.g. [107] & [108]; [109] & [110] (anon was me accidentally logged out [111]); [112]; [113] & [114]; [115]; etc., etc. – some of those during then-ongoing quotation marks disputation elsewhere; I was careful to not let my irritation with the editor's behavior in that topic affect my responses to them otherwise. The problem isn't that DF24 and SMcC can't get along (even in ARBATC matters in particular), it's that DF24 just will not drop one ARBATC issue, and it's affecting their ability to be constructive in that sector, including now trying to get other ARBATC editors to manufacture WP:DRAMA with whoever DF24 is angry at over this pet issue (the target is incidentally me this time, but could just as easily have been Dicklyon or someone else). DF24's counter-suggestion of harassment by me, to deflect attention from their own, has no merit. I've twice suggested (in both these AE threads) that DF24 should not be blocked, just separated from the conflict area and left to keep editing, and also defended them against an earlier accusation of TBAN violation [116], as well as omitted evidence from this filing of an additional violation on the basis that it was unintentional. Not exactly hounding, is it? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 01:20, 30 January 2016 (UTC) Clarified, 02:51, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Re: DF24's additional comments: "I want ... to speak at any formal complaint that might be filed against SmC ... to file one myself ... to participate ... with CurlyTurkey [against SMcC]" is a long way of saying DF24 is actively planning to hound me forever, and laying out this plan right in front of AE. The admonitions against this still aren't sinking in, even after a wider topic ban and an interaction ban are contemplated. So, I reinstate my original request [117] for a 1-way IBAN in addition to an expanded TBAN. I took it on good faith that DF24 was just angry at not getting their way, but below they state clearly that now it's an anti-SMcC thing in particular. Good faith assumption is now exhausted, per WP:SPADE/WP:DUCK.
The other stuff can be dispensed with quickly: "[SMcC] does not understand how I think or why I do what I do." Oh, I agree. I take pains not to imply any particular motivation for the Great Quotation Marks Crusade. DF24 seems to entirely believe what they're saying and that "opposing ... and doing something about" logical quotation at all costs is of vital importance for Wikipedia, even if DF24 knows the rest of the project doesn't care (see previous diffs). That it was arguably being done in good faith doesn't make the end result okay. This won't-let-go behavior is similar to that which resulted in another whole-topic ban against DF24 in a mainspace area. The "stop presuming to take credit for my work" thing is a non-sequitur, and another evidence-free aspersion. "[T]alk to Tony1, SlimV and Izno" – DF24 already canvassed the other MoS regulars in the last AE request, with no effect on the outcome. The rest of DF24's response is more projection and gaslighting, more "not me" reversal of DF24's own behavior. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 02:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "If SmC pulls on someone else what he pulled on me" – i.e. presented evidence that AE accepted. (DF24's new diff is, as usual, just another link to DF24 asserting the same opinion in a previous discussion, not to actual evidence.) WP does not need someone to make it their mission on here to fire up a personalized dispute every time a particular individual and any other editor have an issue to air out between them that doesn't involve DF24. Darkfrog24 is effectively testifying against their own case, really effectively. Enough said. I'm going back to sourcing and other real wiki-work. If I'm needed for anything, please ping me. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 05:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Darkfrog24

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Darkfrog24

The topic ban covers quotation marks and WP:LQ [118]. It does not cover SMcCandlish specifically or talking about other editors or their behavior in general.

For all SMC's links, please just look at what I actually said, in its original context. Do not take his summary of matters at face value.

Diff #1: Saturday, user @Curly Turkey: pinged me to ask if SMcCandlish had violated a topic ban placed against him in September[119] [120]. I told CT that said topic ban had a two-month expiration date and had been appealed anyway.[121] In other words, CT asked "Did SMC break the rules?" and I answered "No he didn't." Curly also referenced SMC's behavior, which has been inappropriate.
2 is just #1 again.
3 I want SMcCandlish to leave me alone. I've told him so repeatedly, and so have others: It's time for you to stay away from me. [122] [123]. If it is necessary for someone to follow me around, appoint a neutral party. Regarding my "one tenth" comment, I'm referring to things like this: [124]
4 I asked the admins about the specifics of the topic ban as they saw them and for constructive criticism regarding my conduct. The whole reason I am banned is because my understanding of the rules is different from theirs. Asking questions about what is expected of me is the solution.

I did not make accusations without evidence. Plenty was provided [125] [126] [127] [128] and there is more. He rearranges words or leaves them out to make my posts look like something they're not. Example, I actually said "The way I see it, I've done nothing wrong, but you clearly don't feel that way. So what do you see as a positive change that I could make here?"[129] And here's why I cut back on gnoming: [130].

Example: SMcCandlish claimed that I removed a dispute tag "without doing anything to resolve the disputes."[131] That's not true. I attempted to resolve the dispute by replacing the source, which I believed he had contested. [132] Here's the two of us talking about it. [133] Not true + He knows it = "Not being honest" is the nice way to put it. I'd need more space to refute every point.

SMcCandlish has not been shy about calling me a liar without cause [134] or about making vicious claims about my motives [135] [136]. Here he is saying "I don't want Darkfrog to be allowed to say I'm not honest or speculate about my motives!" SmC is playing the victim.

January 2016: "hope that he just improves his manners and figures himself out" is not an aspersion against SmC's mental health.

September 2015: "if you [CurlyT] and JG66 want to get back to working out the intro sentence, you don't need to make sure you haven't run out of Valium" is not an aspersion against SmC's mental health. One or the other of them had said the situation was stressful, and I cracked a joke about how they would not need Valium.

September 2015: "Please go easy on [SMcCandlish] anyway ... Something might be going on" is not an aspersion against SmC's mental health. I've known him on Wikipedia long enough to tell that, last summer, he'd been acting in a manner that was unusual for him and speculated that something might be wrong IRL.

And yes, he does know that's what I meant: [137] Scroll down until you see "Are you okay?"

Remedy: Tell SMcCandlish to leave me alone.

Response to SMC's further allegations: This editor does not understand how I think or why I do what I do. He wants you to believe that this isn't a response to his actions, that I'm just randomly mad and lashing out at just anyone. That's not true. (And speculating about my motives while saying that I should be banned from speculating about his motives is messed up.) Lots of editors don't agree with me on quotation marks. More than one editor commented on the last AE thread. SmC said and is continuing to say things that he knows aren't true.

What do I want here? I've already unwatched the MoS and quotation mark pages. I want to reserve the right to speak at any formal complaint that might be filed against SmC for his behavior or to file one myself and to participate in ordinary conversations—like the one I had with CurlyTurkey—under Wikipedia's ordinary rules. I'm trying to make the best of this topic ban. What I need is for him to stay away from me, cease acting as though I were his business in any way, stop presuming to take credit for my work, stop following me around, stop misrepresenting what I say. What's it going to take from me to get that? The question is not rhetorical.

Oh good God. [138]. I can't even say "Are you okay?" without him imagining some ulterior motive.

@Thryduulf: Last week, I was not aware that I was not allowed to ask involved admins about the core issue underlying the topic ban. I stopped doing so as soon as EdJ and KillerC told me otherwise. This is what I mean when I say your understanding of the rules is different from mine. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:17, 30 January 2016 (UTC) @EdJohnston: I thought the topic ban already covered the MoS in general. I think you should talk to Tony1, SlimV and Izno. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In case my meaning wasn't obvious, the want/need dichotomy is meant to indicate "I am willing to forego what I want to get what I need." As for what I want, I mean I want to reserve the right to do something like this: [139] If SmC pulls on someone else what he pulled on me, I want to talk about it. I've done it before without incident. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:40, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EdJohnston: But it does currently cover WP:MOS and WT:MOS themselves, right? So what you're considering is an expansion of the gag order? Question: Do you believe my conversation with Curly Turkey concerned the MoS in some way or is this because of something else? Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:34, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You guys are right that there is a lot that I don't understand a lot about this situation. It seemed like asking questions about what I saw as the core issue underlying the topic ban—challenges to WP:LQ—would solve that problem, and I didn't expect it to be so controversial. (In my defense, the topic ban alert specifically says "ask me if you have any questions.") The way I see it, I just didn't know that asking involved admins about WP:LQ was covered by the ban, and I stopped asking about it as soon as I found out. Answering a question about another editor's behavior also didn't look like it was covered. (It actually still doesn't. If that's not the case, please inform me.)

However, the reverse is also true. I didn't guess that non-WP:LQ MoS issues weren't covered (and if they are, now would be the time to say). That being the case...

Reasons not to expand the scope or duration of this topic ban

When MOS:IDENTITY came up for review, I took the lead, working cooperatively on an eleven-person team. The issue was controversial and many of us held disparate views. The two proposals went through nine drafts: [140] [141] I also did the considerable legwork of publicizing the proposals and posting notifications to the talk pages of all participants in the previous RfC that had inspired the revisitation.

But taking the lead on a big multi-person project was relatively new for me. More often, I'm doing things like this: [142] [143] The discussion of animate vs inanimate pronouns for fictional characters eventually covered thirteen sub-threads. I found a way to cut through the moot points to the chase.

It's a bit of a tangent, but I also don't think this TB should have covered the article space in the first place (for me or Dicklyon). I'd say Full stop is a good example of my work there. Removal of unsourced material [144] and of a six-year-old typo that flipped the meaning of a relevant sentence [145]. Took a bit of digging through a lot of archived pages, but I found the edit in which the error had been inserted, confirmed with the Wikieditor in question that it was probably accidental [146], and corrected it. As for conflicts, discussions of WP:LQ at WT:MOS did occasionally include sources, but more often they dealt with beliefs and qualitative matters. Which editors believe one system is better than the other? Because the article space is subject to WP:V, conflicts stuck more closely to facts. Which sources say what? As such, they tended to end quickly: [147]

Statement by Dicklyon

Darkfrog is correct that the topic ban was not quite broad enough to force her to drop the stick. That can be fixed. Dicklyon (talk) 05:21, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JzG

Darkfrog's immediate reaction to the topic ban was to canvass opinion on how he could plan to carry on his campaign when the ban expires: [148], [149], [150], [151], [152], [153].

I think that tells us something important about his determination to continue this, despite clear and unambiguous feedback that his efforts are not appreciated and not in line with Wikipedia ethos.

I don't see any alternative here but to extend the TBAN and send an unambiguous sign that no means no. Guy (Help!) 14:53, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Darkfrog24

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It's clear that Darkfrog24 has not understood why the topic ban was imposed, and so it needs to be restated and possibly broadened to cover all discussions about the manual of style and manual of style related topics on all pages, including their user talk page. It also needs to be said that, even if the topic ban is not broadened that further speculation, discussion or similar about how to proceed with the same campaign once the ban expires will in future be treated as a topic ban violation. Topic ban violations typically result in being blocked from editing.

I'm also tempted by an interaction ban between Darkfrog24 and SMcCandlish, either one way (Darkfrog24 may not interact with SMcCandlish) or two way (neither may interact with the other) as nothing productive is currently occurring when the two engage. I'd prefer a voluntary agreement that both stay completely away from each other, but if that is not forthcoming then an interaction ban could be imposed.

The 6-month date for appeals seems too lenient now, so if we add anything new here it should be for 12 months, and if we don't we should extend the date of appeal of the original topic ban to 12 months from when this discussion closes.

I want input from other admins on both suggestions before I do anything more here though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:Thryduulf's proposal to extend DF24's indefinite ban to cover all discussions about the manual of style and MOS-related topics on all pages, including user talk, and to allow appeal of the ban in 12 months. Not sure whether an IBAN from SMcC is worthwhile. Perhaps we could just warn DF24 that they can be blocked if they won't stay away from SMcC. EdJohnston (talk) 17:19, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darkfrog24, up to this point you are only banned from quotation marks, not from all style discussions. EdJohnston (talk) 22:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Concur that the TBAN needs to be extended as proposed by Thryduulf, with an extension of the appeal timeframe to 12 months. I believe Darkfrog24 is capable of contributing constructively to article space but behavior since the limited TBAN has demonstrated that the expanded scope is necessary. I'm not in favor of an IBAN at this time—I believe the inability to discuss MOS issues will have the desired effect. --Laser brain (talk) 14:09, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SageRad

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SageRad

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Edward321 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:49, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: SageRad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: [[154]] :

"SageRad is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[155] SageRaded removes tags from Charles Eisenstein; according to the article, Eisenstein has a column where they write "on topics including genetic modification and the patenting of seed".
[156] SageRad edits DuPont; according to the article, DuPont "makes and sells hybrid seed and genetically modified seed" and has made and sold pesticide.
[157] Further edit by SageRad to the Dupont article.
[158] Further edit by SageRad to the Dupont article.
[159] SageRad edits Talk:DuPont
[160] SageRad further edits Talk:DuPont
[161] SageRad edits Dow Chemical Company; according to the article "Dow’s Agricultural Sciences segment provides crop protection and seed/plant biotechnology products and technologies, urban pest management solutions and oils".
[162] SageRad edits Talk:Dow Chemical Company
[163] SageRad further edits Talk:Dow Chemical Company
[164] SageRad further edits Talk:Dow Chemical Company
[165] SageRad further edits Talk:Dow Chemical Company
[166] SageRad further edits Talk:Dow Chemical Company
[167] SageRad edits Talk:Yvette d'Entremont; according to the article, d'Entremont "works on debunking ideas about alternative medicine, the anti-vaccination movement, and the anti-GMO (genetically modified organisms) movement".

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

SageRad was mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
SageRad was reminded of their topic ban by Looie496.[168]
SageRad was reminded of their topic ban by HighInBC.[169]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I'll requote the decision against SageRad, emphasizing the parts some people are missing "SageRad is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[170]

Discussion concerning SageRad

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SageRad

This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm observing the topic ban to a strict degree. I have not edited anything about GMOs or agrochemicals at all since the topic ban. Period. I'm not stupid. I know that violating my topic ban would be suicide. Someone obviously spent a lot of time trying to compile a case. Looks like enemies have it out for me. I'm editing with integrity and not touching the areas from which i am topic banned. I don't have time to waste on this and i'm not even going to grace this case with any point-by-point rebuttal. It's clear this is a witch hunt trying to find an excuse to get me blocked. SageRad (talk) 10:54, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But, just to be safe, none of the diffs provided show me discussing GMOs or agrochemicals at all -- because i have not. And when Kingofaces writes:

SageRad has also been commenting directly at ANI on a discussion on GMOs

he's actually speaking of a conversation that begins with:

Editor KingOfAces casts aspersions Kingofaces43 is casting very serious aspersions, and here - where he essential frames everybody participating in a OR noticeboard discussion as a climate change denier, among his common theme as fringe.

In other words -- it's not "a discussion on GMOs" -- it's a discussion on meta-level aspects of Wikipedia culture, mainly about the use of "fringe" as an aspersion, and how we deal with name-calling, and all that. It is not a discussion on GMOs, and his trying to frame it as such is a lie.

And once again, what Kingofaces calls:

They also responded directly to me at WP:FTN when I asked for more eyes on this GMO discussion

links actually to this diff which has nothing to do with GMOs. Again, a lie.

And most of his issue seems to be that i have opinions and speak against a McCarthyism sort of dynamic that i see going on. Ironically, this very case here is another such incident within that dynamic. I should not have to be wasting my time on this.

As for DuPont -- my edits on that company (and Dow who have merged with them, hence [171]) have been about the chemical PFOA (like this edit [172]) which is not an agrochemical. It's a Teflon additive that did pollute water in West Virginia and in the Ohio River. That's not at all under my topic ban. And i also edited about Styrofoam [173] to correct a trade name. Styrofoam is made by Dow but Thermocol is made by another company. I also made the same change at Polystyrene to correct that trade name -- again, another chemical also made by Dow (my edit).

Seriously, my edit to Charles Eisenstein [174] ??????? This is out of control. So he's a wonderful thinker, author of Sacred Economics and a social change agent in the world. He probably wrote something about GMOs sometime, but i've never read it, and it's not his main thing, not what he's known for. You're really stretching. This is looking like McCarthyism, sort of proving my point, the actual point for which this case appears to have been brought against me.

So, even though i said i wouldn't, i just went through all the diffs provided, and as i know, they do not show me editing anything at all about GMOs or agrochemicals. I know this because my conscience is clear. I have not edited anything about GMOs or agrochemicals at all since the topic ban. I ask for this case to be summarily dropped, as it's onerous and seems to be intended to "get me" for being outspoken on cultural issues within Wikipedia. Good day. SageRad (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Look, i still reserve the right to speak to meta-issues on Wikipedia that are not about GMOs or agrochemicals. The topic ban is what it is -- and you cannot "clarify" it to become greater than it is.

Let's give it a rest already. SageRad (talk) 16:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that i was quite aware of this decision which explicitly did not prohibit editing about companies that may also make agrochemicals or GMOs. Those were subject to DS and not the ban, and that was already clarified. I operated under that clarification when i edited about PFOA and Styrofoam, if Only in Death was unaware of this clarification, then now they are.

How far would a topic ban reach? Like if i edit about corn, would that be a violation because there is GMO corn in the world? As you see, people tried to claim a violation when i edited about Charles Eisenstein because maybe (i have no idea) he wrote something about GMOs somewhere. Well he probably did mention them in his many book but i've no idea. This is simply topic ban creep gone crazy. Come on already. I'm done with this. If this is how it is then you basically kill my ability to edit Wikipedia because i'll be nailed to the cross whatever i do. SageRad (talk) 17:12, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And there's this. SageRad (talk) 17:25, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish, I guess that page does say that, but I hadn't noticed when I made the single talk page comment about peacock language, and it's not what my edit was about, and I know her as only a commenter on food safety. I had no intent of making any comment on GMOs by posting that comment on the article's tone. SageRad (talk) 20:20, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AlbinoFerret

Having commented on the recent WP:ARCA section on increasing the topic bans to "companies that produce them" for the topic banned editors from the GMO case. I would like to point out the motion in section 11.25.1 that would have added the companies failed. As a result, SageRad is not topic banned from editing articles of companies that produce agricultural chemicals as long as he is not editing about agricultural chemicals/GMO's. None of the diffs provided are on agricultural chemicals/GMO's. AlbinoFerret 03:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to point out that that the warnings predate the close of the ARCA section and one was specifically about that section and should be covered by WP:BANEX AlbinoFerret 03:27, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

SageRad has also been commenting directly at ANI on a discussion on GMOs starting with this scaled back to this, quite obviously so they could claim they weren't directly entering discussion on GMOs.

Followed by:[175][176][177][178]

With this gem of an edit summary, "There is a reason that i continue to compare the anti-fringe movement to McCarthyism." All these above occurred in this ANI thread, which was explicitly focused on genetically modified organisms, the scientific consensus around it, and how we deal with WP:FRINGE aspects in content discussion around it.

They also responded directly to me at WP:FTN when I asked for more eyes on this GMO discussion[179] with this referring to McCarthyism again, which is another unambiguous violation followed by more commentary Regardless of meta-discussions popping up within the specific incidents, there they have been plenty of discussions on topic banned users in this topic to not even be commenting from the sidelines at admin boards when they are topic banned.

There have been some previous instances where SageRad has been chaffing against their ban[180][181], though not quite as bad as others sanctioned at the case. There still have been issues going on though with a previous AE case[182]. I won't even suggest any particular actions to admins, but SageRad needs to stay out the topic plain and simple without finding ways to skirt the ban. I'm concerned there's a lot of the same soapboxing and hyperbole related to WP:FRINGE, etc. that got them topic banned from GMOs, but that might be something ANI handles if they can respect the topic ban. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

My observation is that SageRad is much more interested in complaining about being "bullied" by other users who attempt to guide his edits in such a way that is consistent with his topic ban then he is in actually living within the ban and finding other non-banned areas to edit in. He is clearly here to push an agenda, and when he is prevented from doing so, immediately begins his "bullying" trope on talk pages and noticeboards. At this point, I see him as a disruptive element who, by his example, encourages other WP:FRINGE-sympathetic editors to behave similarly. He is a net negative to the project, one that we can hardly afford to allow to roam freely at a time when Wikipedia is experiencing a concerted effort to throw off the discipline of the scientific standard and allow all sorts of unscientific nonsense into the encyclopedia. I urge the admins evaluating this complaint, on the basis of the evidence that has been presented, ~~to broaden SageRad's topic ban to include all fringe-related areas, and~~ to encourage admins to police his behavior vigorously.

If the admins who frequent AE doubt that there is a stromg effort to influence Wikipedia in favor of fringe subjects, all they need to do is to look up at some of the complaints being filed here., whic clearly outline their program.BMK (talk) 06:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SageRad: Please consider "Broadly construed". Generally what that means is that if there is a mere possibility of the subject being part of the topic ban, you should turn your back and go do something else. You, on the other hand, appear to be minutely parsing the subject matter, and then diving in. That's just not going to fly with a "broadly contrued" topic ban, something which you've been warned about at least twice now. BMK (talk) 19:32, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkfrog: SageRad's topic ban is not phrased to say that he is banned from those pages "except where the edits cause a problem". It is a plain, straight-out ban from those pages which broadly construed come under the terms of the ban. The quality or efficacy of the edits is totally irrelevant and should not be considered by the admins evaluating this complaint. BMK (talk) 19:41, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reflection, struck one suggestion above. BMK (talk) 20:31, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Darkfrog24

Very uninvolved non-admin. Most of these edits don't specifically mention GMOs, but Sagered is also banned from "pages relating to genetically modified organisms." According to AlbinoF, that does not include DuPont or Dow, but my own take is that it would include d'Entremont.

1. No GMO mentioned. Is it the filer's position that SR is trying to indirectly talk about GMOs by minimizing mention of one of their supporters or detractors?
2. No GMO mentioned
3. No GMO mentioned.
4. No GMO mentioned.
5. Mentions PFOA, not GMOs. Does the article that SR recommends talk about GMOs? If so, I guess it could be construed as a way to induce others to talk about GMOs, but it could also just be what it looks like. AGF.
6. No GMO mentioned.
7. No GMO mentioned.
8. Recommending the same NYT article. Again, depends on what it says.
9. The edits made by OnlyinDeath do not mention or involve GMOs.
10-12. No GMO mentioned.
13. Maybe this one. SR is talking about the article in general and it mentions GMOs in the opening paragraphs but SR him/herself does not.

IMO #1 and #13 are the only ones that can be construed as violations, but it is reasonable that the filer would not know that DuPont and Dow are not covered by the ban, so I wouldn't call it deliberate spam either.

Yes, SR mentions GMOs or more specifically the discussion of GMOs on Wikipedia in this AN/I discussion; self-removes this part of the post about twelve hours later. I don't see the problem with "Resent your calling my response 'hysterical'" or those other posts. Bottom line: There is a lot of stuff in this complaint that's innocuous. The comment on the SciBabe article talk page could be a problem. The real issue here is the participation in the AN/I discussion, which included GMOs even though it was not solely about them. I'd go with yes, SageRad was over the line here. If SR has been engaging in a pattern of such borderline activity, then action is warranted. If not, I'd just clarify the terms of the topic ban so that they explicitly state that SR is not allowed to participate in meta-discussions of GMOs on Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:37, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Only in death: It sounds like technically Sagered's Dow and DuPont edits don't violate the ban, even though I'll agree with what I infer to be @Edward321:'s opinion that one would think these pages would be covered. I'd say this: Do the edits cause or constitute a problem? Do they exacerbate a conflict or push a POV? If so, then the admins should consider extending the topic ban, but it should be acknowledged that Sagered did not violate its existing terms with these edits. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Only in Death

Re Darkfrog, SageRad is banned from agricultural chemicals, which are a major part of Dow's business. The only reason I did not report SageRad for those transgressions was they appeared to take the hint and backed off the article. The AE report I actually filed previously which was closed by EdJohnston despite being a blatant violation was a different matter, evidence of their attempt to canvass support for their POV pushing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

DF, SageRads MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, and attempt to skew it towards their POV. (Their contribution history contains the evidence of that). As they hold a viewpoint that corporations (GMO affiliated ones mainly) are bad and up to no good, this generally means trying to paint them in an unduly negative light. By coatracking, unreliable sourcing etc. Not restricted to companies, individuals who are pro science (and so, anti fringe/pseudoscience) get the same treatment. As SageRad has a basic lack of understanding of how NPOV, Fringe/Pseudoscience policies work, this means they get into the same arguments in multiple venues with multiple editors who have to explain things over and over again. Take a look at the NPOV and fringe noticeboards (and archives) for a sample. Not to mention the rubbish at Veganism. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:38, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MarkBernstein

The complaint is vexatious, and is apparently intended to lure admins at AE into carelessly extending a topic ban into domains which ArbCom explicitly rejected, for the purposes of gaining advantage in a topic dispute and of further securing Wikipedia for the American right.

Is perfluorooctanioc acid an agricultural chemical? It sure sounds chemical, doesn’t it? Does it have something to do with GMOs? Kind of sounds like it would! DuPoint and Dow do make some farm products! Obviously, a breaching experiment: ring the alarms!

Unfortunately for this complaint, some Wikipedians have knowledge of a variety of domains, and others are remarkably willing to look stuff up. A long time ago, I earned a doctorate in chemistry. Also, a long time ago, I was employed by E. I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., Inc., though by Central Research, not by the agrochemical division. I can say with some confidence that perfluorooctanoic acid is not an agricultural chemical, at least not on this planet! (Speculation on the slippery nature of perfluorinated wildlife might amuse arbitrators more than this complaint.) DuPont has long been a world leader in fluorocarbon chemistry, and its perfluorinated polymer, Teflon, is a household word. Perfluorooctanoic acid is used to manufacture Teflon and related polymers, as a water repellent, and for related applications. There’s quite a decent article on this on a Web site called Wikipedia.

The question of whether the topic ban extends to non-agricultural chemicals, or to other operations of these and other companies, was explicitly raised -- by myself and others -- at ARCA. ArbCom's rejection of this broad construction was clear and unambiguous. The editor raising this question should be topic-banned from discussion of topic bans for GMO in order to avoid future disruption. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I have not looked at all the company-related edits, but the last edit listed in the opening filing, [183], is an unambiguous violation, because the lead section of the page clearly notes that the subject is notable for criticizing "the anti-GMO (genetically modified organisms) movement". --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SageRad

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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