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Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by PCPP on 13:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• PCPP (talk · contribs)
• Keahapana (talk · contribs)
• Shrigley (talk · contribs)
• TheSoundAndTheFury (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a continuation of a former DRN request on the same subject [1], which was closed last June due to an Arbcom request. After the Arbcom case concluded, the case was left unresolved for the following months due to personal issues, and I hope for the outstanding issues on the article to be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Per prior case

How do you think we can help?

Per prior case

Opening comments by Keahapana

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Thanks to PCPP for finally restarting this Dispute Resolution. Thanks also to Guy Macon for volunteering to help us. I apologize for being Easter-sloth slow in replying, and don't have any objections to the somewhat longwinded opening comments because we've been talking in circles for too long. For instance, my "recent addition" of the CSM quote (#5) was added to the Confucius Institute article on 15 December 2010, was carried over into the initial Concerns and controversies article on 10 July 2011, and first deleted by PCPP on 14 May 2012. I hope we can reach an amicable resolution on appropriate contents for the C&CoCI article, and then cooperate on updating it. How should we proceed? Keahapana (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by by PCPP

My prior concerns in regards to article

Hi, I've read the discussion, and per the terms, I will not edit the main page of the article while the discussion is going on, and will not touch or mention the paragraphs regarding FLG. Overall, I feel that this article is overlong with quotes, and some can be better served with summarized statements. I also feel a need to distinguish between criticisms of CI and criticisms of individuals working at CI. My main disputes are with several of Keahapana's recent additions, which I view as failing to satisfy NPOV and due weight. Here are some of the specific changes I disagree with: 1) [2][3] Statements by Pierrebourg et al alleging that some CI employees have relations with United Front Work Dept and Huawei. The authors also allege that United Front and Huawei employees were engaging in possible propaganda and spying efforts. In my opinion, this is given undue weight, since it engage a "guilt-by-association" fallacy, sounds like a conspiracy theory, and itself is not really a criticism of CI itself. 2) [4] A quote from the German publication "Der Spiegel", which claims that CI possibly promotes "China's cultural superiority". I feel that this statement falls on undue weight, as it comes from an article about China's foreign relations, and only mentioned CI in one sentence. 3) [5][6] Comparisons with Mussolini's Italian Institutes. I feel that this violates NPOV and engages in further association fallacy. 4) [7] A statement from Branner speculating on the long term consequences of CI finances. I feel that this statement adds little to the article, which is in danger of being too long with its quotations. 5) [8] A tabloid headline referring to China as "a cruel, tyrannical, and repressive foreign government". I feel that this violates NPOV, tells nothing to the reader, and feel that it's better to use the author's concluding statements about how Chinese should be taught "in terms of freedom and democracy" 6) [9] A paragraph detailing that the Dickinson State University not wanting a CI, noting that it's not where they want to focus right now. I feels that this is not really a criticism at all, since such institutions can be rejected for administration reasons at anytime. Also, the university mentioned is a comparatively minor educational institution which has been accused of being a diploma mill. 7) [10] A paragraph detailing a Senate hearing regarding Chinese diplomatic efforts in the US, which includes quotes of political rhetorics from Representative Dana Rohrabacher as well as statement from Steven W. Mosher. I feel that quoting Rohrabacher adds little to the article, and it's better to simply summarize his statements. As for Steven Mosher, it was claimed that he was expelled by Stanford due to Chinese pressure, while failing to mention the event happened in 1981 and has nothing to do with CI at all. 8) [11] A paragraph regarding a local dispute over an elementary school's Confucius Classroom, sourced largely from blogs. I feel that this does not meet notability and due weight requirements. 9) [12] The paragraph states that CI is administered by Hanban, and its chair used to work with United Front. This already says "association fallacy", and the Mosher quote regarding United Front is inappropriately added to synthesis further spying allegations. 10) [13] Here is a paragraph about London School of Economics accepting donations from China, and associates it with the controversial Gaddafi donations. Again, I feel that this has little to do with CI, and more to do with LSE. 11) [14] Long paragraph regarding Visa requirements of CI employees. I feel that this is given undue weight. 12) Lastly, I feel that the article would serve better if it was renamed "Reception of Confucius Institutes" or something similar instead, since the current title emphasizes an undue weight on negatives, suffer from a repetition of similar statements, while not giving due weight to CI's side of the story. I also feel that this article is in danger of becoming a collection of random negative stories on CI pulled from Google news, and as such, does not satisfy WP:CRIT. Perhaps the article could be restyled after similar criticism articles on Microsoft and Apple, where the criticism is organized by a clear heading and opening statement, present all sides using very little direct quotes and more concise paraphrasing. --PCPP (talk) 08:29, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Shrigley

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Basically, the problem with this article is that it has turned into a dumping ground and clearinghouse for any old web page that could vaguely be construed as damaging to CIs. There's no editorial control for NPOV and weight; there's no summarizing; there's no merging. For example, Keahapana says in discussion, "we could add more references to CIs and cultural superiority such as China Is Culturally Superior to America". However, there is no in-depth discussion of any issue of "cultural superiority". There's just an obscure blogpost mocking state-run media around the world, and which made some sarcastic, uninformed, and extrapolative remarks about a Chinese newspaper op-ed. And this push to continually add irrelevant commentaries is a fair microcosm of the kind of shenanigans that I would like to see stop. Give me highly-corroborated, widely-referenced criticisms from the finest quality sources. Those criticisms will be exactly the ones that merit a response from the criticized party, or a well-documented refusal to respond. Restricting the article to those types of criticisms solves the balance issue. Shrigley (talk) 14:00, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by TheSoundAndTheFury

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to read the Guide for participants at the top of this page. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Because the comment was placed in this section (right under the instructions that says not to do that -- see above) I have moved it to "Opening comments by by PCPP" above. Normally we limit opening comments to 2000 characters and the comment is over 5000 characters long, but this is an unusual case, having been through DRN and arbcom previously, and it is collapsed, so I would like to ask Keahapana, do you have any objection to this? I don't want anyone to think we are being unfair or biased toward one side or the other. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

It has been over 24 hours, and still I only see one person choosing to participate. I have also not received any feedback from my post at Talk:Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes#Notice of Dispute resolution discussion. I am going to give it another 24 hours, and then if there is still no participation, we can start discussing the best way to proceed. Thanks for your patience. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I advise allowing more time. Keahapana does not appear to edit daily, but has waited nine months for this dispute resolution to begin in order to accommodate the other party.Homunculus (duihua) 01:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, I am opening this up for discussion. You can all take as much time as you need -- I just didn't want anyone to feel that we are ignoring the case.

There are a lot of issues here, so I want to focus on one thing, see if we can resolve it, and then move on the the next. Let's start with PCPP's point #8: "A paragraph regarding a local dispute over an elementary school's Confucius Classroom, sourced largely from blogs. I feel that this does not meet notability and due weight requirements."

This raises two questions:

First, why are we calling an editorial from the San Gabriel Valley Tribune and a news story sourced to the Associated Press (AP) "blogs?" (See WP:BLOGS)

Second, why are we giving so much weight to the opinions of a history teacher at Cedarlane middle school in Hacienda Heights, CA? (See WP:WEIGHT. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

In regards to the Confucius Classroom section, I felt that it was overwhelmed with sources and needs to be summarized more, since this is not just a criticism of CI but also a local ethnic dispute between Asian and Hispanic parents, as noted by the Washington Times piece. The Tribune editorial, which I wrongly referred to as a blog, has its position already been covered by both of these higher quality sources [15] [16]. As for the history teacher source, I favored its removal, so in conclusion, I feel that the paragraph only need a short reference to the both the views Tribune editorial and school board member Jay Chen, concluding with Prof. Cull's views on people's suspicion of outside ideas.--PCPP (talk) 13:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I am going to wait until I see the argument on the other side before addressing the weight issue. As for the blog issue, of course anything that is only referenced in a blog needs to be sources or removed, which is why I asked. Could you do me a favor and go through your statement and correct any other errors you see? This is not a criticism; everyone makes errors. The only reason I am asking is that I intend to go through every area of dispute in detail and I don't want to waste your time. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry that it's taken me so much time to get up to speed again, but I haven't looked at these diffs since last May. Here are some initial replies to PCPP's 12 prior concerns.

• 1) Associations with UFWD and Huawei. Neither logical association fallacy nor legal collective guilt apply to political controversies, some of which are entirely based on associations (e.g., Bill Ayers presidential election controversy or Jeremiah Wright controversy). Calling espionage concerns a conspiracy theory seems inappropriate.

• 2) Der Spiegel article. Admittedly, I could be wrong here, but is does WP:UNDUE require reliable sources to have more than one sentence on a topic? Either way, we could add more references to CIs and cultural superiority such as China Is Culturally Superior to America or Soft Power.

• 3) Comparisons with Mussolini's Italian Institutes. To my knowledge, the early Italian Cultural Institutes are the best historical analogy for CIs, and various authors make this comparison. Zimmerman is quoted is sources like this and this.

• 4) Branner's criticism. I agree that this quote could be paraphrased but disagree that it "adds little to the article." It represents a legitimate academic concern over CI financing.

• 5) CSM quote. This argument is based on two factual errors: The Christian Science Monitor is widely regarded as one of the most neutral US newspapers – not a tabloid. The quote is from the lede not the headline. Compare the original conclusion with the misrepresentative summary.
  • "So yes, absolutely, more Americans should take Chinese. Our economy, our cultural life, and our national security all demand it. But we should study the subject on our own terms, making sure that it also reflects our best civic language of freedom, open discussion, and democracy."
  • "article argued that teaching of Chinese language in the United States should be done on the terms of freedom, open discussion and democracy."

• 6) Dickinson State University. PCPP, you are correct. I agree to this deletion.

• 7) Rohrabacher's "political rhetorics" and Mosher's testimony. Directly quoting Dana Rohrabacher is more accurate than this distorted "summary." Steven W. Mosher appeared as an expert witness rather than a CI alumnus. Why make an ad hominem attack?

• 8) Cedarlane controversy. The "blog" mischaracterization has already been discussed. This Hacienda Heights story is perhaps the most widely reported criticism of a Confucius Classroom rather than a Confucius Institute. I think we originally had references from the National Review and Washington Times too.

• 9) Mosher UFWD quote. Respectfully disagree. See 1) and 7) above.

• 10) London School of Economics. Wasn't this already reverted? In June 2012, Professor Hughes reported the CI's egregious Korean War propaganda video (listed under Talk:Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes#New Controversies). We could combine the two refs.

• 11) State Department CI employee visa flap. This controversy was widely reported in both Western (The Chronicle of Higher Education) and Chinese (Global Times and Xinhua News) sources. I also think the paragraph needs rewriting.

• 12) General comments. We can probably all agree that the current C&CoCI name is awkward. Based on the un-critical piping of Criticism of Microsoft and Criticism of Apple, I think that Criticism of Confucius Institutes might be the clearest and most succinct title. As already discussed during the 2012 merger discussion, CIs specifically meet two of the WP:CRIT's exceptions for which criticism articles are allowed: subject matter and independent criticism sources. The CI and C&CoCI diffs and Talk pages fully document that an ongoing pattern of creative paraphrasing resulted in the relatively high number of direct quotes. I've already searched for and contributed many refs expressing "CI's side" for NPOV, but most come from CI employees. Perhaps other editors can find additional reliable sources.

This should be enough to get our discussion productively started. Keahapana (talk) 20:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, we have an agreement on #6. If so, could someone please edit the article to reflect the agreement?

Trying to knock down the easy ones first, let's look at #2 next.

PCPP wrote:

[17] quote from the German publication "Der Spiegel", which claims that CI possibly promotes "China's cultural superiority". I feel that this statement falls on undue weight, as it comes from an article about China's foreign relations, and only mentioned CI in one sentence.

Keahapana wrote:

Der Spiegel article. Admittedly, I could be wrong here, but is does WP:UNDUE require reliable sources to have more than one sentence on a topic? Either way, we could add more references to CIs and cultural superiority such as China Is Culturally Superior to America or Soft Power.

My comments:

WP:UNDUE doesn't specify how many sentences a source has to have. It isn't about how much weight the source gives the topic, but rather whether the topic itself is a minority viewpoint and whether we are giving to much emphasis to the minority viewpoint. So, let's discuss any other reasons why we think this should be included or excluded.

(Change of subject) User:Shrigley has asked to be added to this case, and I have made a place for her/his opening comments above. I am also going to ask everyone who participated in previous cases whether they want to join the discussion.

To all the new voices; the most important things where this DRN case differs from article talk pages are: [A] I am trying to get everyone focused on one point of disagreement at a time rather than being all over the map. [B] At DRN, we focus on article content, not on user conduct, so please talk about the article, not about other editors, and if someone else talks about other editors, don' reply -- I will ask them to delete the comment. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 07:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. The (apparently misinterpreted) reason that I mentioned two other examples of CIs and "cultural superiority" was to demonstrate that it should not necessarily be excluded as a minority viewpoint. Keahapana (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

So, do we agree on #6? Is there any progress on resolving #2? Does anyone have a preference as to what point we should work on next? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree and will gladly delete it. Any order of discussion is fine with me. Since there is overlap between #1, #7, and #9, perhaps we could deal with them together. Keahapana (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot it's already been deleted (guess <grin> I need more caffeine). Thanks again to PCPP. Keahapana (talk) 19:59, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to get the ball rolling on a couple of easy ones while I got a feel for the participants (am I dealing with reasonable folks who want what is best for the encyclopedia but disagree about what is best, or am I jumping into a raging battle full of accusations and counteraccusations?) Now that I see that I won't be needing body armor, I would like to follow your lead. Here is a new section so you don't have to scroll so far after hitting the edit button:

C and C over CI discussion 1

---

PCPP #1: [18][19] Statements by Pierrebourg et al alleging that some CI employees have relations with United Front Work Dept and Huawei. The authors also allege that United Front and Huawei employees were engaging in possible propaganda and spying efforts. In my opinion, this is given undue weight, since it engage a "guilt-by-association" fallacy, sounds like a conspiracy theory, and itself is not really a criticism of CI itself.

Keahapana #1: Associations with UFWD and Huawei. Neither logical association fallacy nor legal collective guilt apply to political controversies, some of which are entirely based on associations (e.g., Bill Ayers presidential election controversy or Jeremiah Wright controversy). Calling espionage concerns a conspiracy theory seems inappropriate.

---

PCPP #7: [20] A paragraph detailing a Senate hearing regarding Chinese diplomatic efforts in the US, which includes quotes of political rhetorics from Representative Dana Rohrabacher as well as statement from Steven W. Mosher. I feel that quoting Rohrabacher adds little to the article, and it's better to simply summarize his statements. As for Steven Mosher, it was claimed that he was expelled by Stanford due to Chinese pressure, while failing to mention the event happened in 1981 and has nothing to do with CI at all.

Keahapana #7: Rohrabacher's "political rhetorics" and Mosher's testimony. Directly quoting Dana Rohrabacher is more accurate than this distorted "summary." Steven W. Mosher appeared as an expert witness rather than a CI alumnus. Why make an ad hominem attack?

---

PCPP #9: [21] The paragraph states that CI is administered by Hanban, and its chair used to work with United Front. This already says "association fallacy", and the Mosher quote regarding United Front is inappropriately added to synthesis further spying allegations.

Keahapana #9: Mosher UFWD quote. Respectfully disagree. See 1) and 7) above.

---

Relevant comments about #1, #7, and #9 by Shrigley: Basically, the problem with this article is that it has turned into a dumping ground and clearinghouse for any old web page that could vaguely be construed as damaging to CIs. There's no editorial control for NPOV and weight; there's no summarizing; there's no merging. [...] Give me highly-corroborated, widely-referenced criticisms from the finest quality sources. Those criticisms will be exactly the ones that merit a response from the criticized party, or a well-documented refusal to respond. Restricting the article to those types of criticisms solves the balance issue.

---

Are we to discuss here the two issues above - i.e. whether Rohrabacher and Mosher's remarks should be included, and if so whether they should be in a short or long quote, or short or long paraphrase? And then, whether we should mention the UFWD link to Hanban? I'm a little confused about the format of the discussion. It seems that whoever wrote the above agreed with their inclusion. I'm just not sure about the format this discussion is supposed to take. One note: for criticisms of something, does Wikipedia necessarily require something to be "highly-corroborated" (what does that mean, when we're talking about expressions of opinion?) and "widely-referenced"? The standard of a reliable source is much lower than that. The guideline on reliable sources is very clear and we can all know what they are. I'm not sure what the standard is for something to be highly-corroborated or widely-referenced. For that reason and others, it may be simpler to keep the threshold at what our content policies say, but then exercise reasonable judgement for the length to which something is quoted and the weight it is given, on factors such as how corroborated or referenced a statement is. Very often these differences are differences of taste between editors. To the extent that the matters can be extracted from personal preferences and made to submit to objective criteria, that's great. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. For TheSoundAndTheFury any anyone else just joining the conversation, I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. I have added your name to the list of participants and have made a place for you to write an initial statement.

We can discuss any issue that you folks agree to discuss. My only guidance on that is that we all read and understand the Guide for participants at the top of this page -- especially the part about talking only about the article content and not talking about other users -- and that we try to resolve one issue before jumping to the next. Otherwise I am just here to help you in any way that I can. So far we have been working on numbered items from PCPP's opening comments and Keahapanas reply, and right now we are looking at #1, #7, and #9. Once we either resolve that issue or decide that we can not reach agreement, we can discuss anything that we agree to discuss -- not necessarily something from that list.

As for your specific questions, we have an essay at Wikipedia:Criticism that is well worth reading. Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines, but this one does a pretty good job of summarizing our policies or guidelines. One question we might want to ask after we finish with the point we are discussing now is whether this article should exist at all or whether one of the other approaches would be better. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:26, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sorry about the lack of replies, I'm still keeping an eye on this discussion, I should have a reply within the next day or so.--PCPP (talk) 07:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, PCPP. I look forward to reading your reply. As embarrassingly evident from reading the CI and C&CoCI talk pages, we need impartial help to resolve these long-standing content disputes before they get closed. Thanks also, Guy Macon. Is there any way to increase outside participation? Perhaps notices to suitable WikiProjects? Since our inside-baseball-ish arguments have only involved a few Sinophile contributors, more outsiders might provide consensus on which CI criticisms are appropriate. Keahapana (talk) 21:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. if anyone has a WikiProject they want notified, let me know and I will post the notice (best that I do it so nobody suspects bias). The other alternative is to post an WP:RFC, but RfCs are best for one well-defined question, whereas DRN is better for resolving a list of point where editors disagree.

There is no deadline, and you can take as much time as you need. The comment above by PCPP is the kind of thing that helps a lot -- it lets me know that we haven't all given up. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

No, we haven't given up. The C&CoCI Talk page already has China and Linguistics WikiProjects. Alternatively, any other projects concerned with Chinese language teaching would be apt, perhaps Languages or Education. Thanks, Keahapana (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It has been over two days since anyone has commented. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Pong to your ping, thanks. I've been waiting for PCPP to reply before making further comments. If we knew the reasons for the delay, then perhaps you and he/she could set a deadline. I'm ready to resolve this and want to move on. Keahapana (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

There are a lot of issues on the table, and I was hoping that we could quickly go through the list. I am going to mark this one as "Failed" in roughly 12 hours. The next logical step would be for whoever is in the minority as far as consensus goes to give up and edit elsewhere, or to post an RfC to see if they can swing the consensus their way. Usually the RfC just confirms the consensus among the regular editors, but it does happen that the consensus among the larger community does not match the consensus among the regular editors of a page, which is why we have an RfC process. Another alternative would be formal mediation. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I've created a work in progress replyin addressing Keahapana's concerns.--PCPP (talk) 16:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Lutici, Pomerania duringthe High Middle Ages

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Skäpperöd on 18:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Lutici (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Pomerania during the High Middle Ages (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Skäpperöd (talk · contribs) Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Volunteer Marek added information to articles and drew a map based on details from Michalek, A: Slowianie Zachodni. Monarchie Wczesnofeudalne. These claims include: A campaign of Bolesław I Chrobry against Stralsund/Stralow in 1121 (which includes the claim that that place even existed by 1121) [22][23][24][25][26] A joint Danish-Polish campaign against Rügen in 1130 leading to the defeat of the local tribe who swore allegiance to the Polish duke.[27][28][29] I contest the accuracy of these claims, as these are errors stemming from an overview work which can not be supported by any secondary sources. There are secondary sources confirming a campaign of Boleslaw into the Müritz area in 1121 and others confirming a Danish-Polish campaign against Wollin in 1130, which the overview work had just confused for above-named places. Michalek has published a series of overview books about crusades, West Slavs (where the contested details are from), South Slavs and East Slavs, so one would expect errors in detail rather than unreferenced novel theories about said details. I contest the inclusion of these errors in articles per WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Volunteer Marek insists on keeping these claims in the resp. articles / map. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk:Lutici#Attempts at removing well sourced material Talk:Pomerania during the High Middle Ages#1130 Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 145#Andrzej Michalek "Slowianie Zachodni. Monarchie Wczesnofeudalne" Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 67#Lutici, Pomerania during the High Middle Ages (aborted due to ongoing RSN discussion, which was then closed w/o outside input) How do you think we can help? Mediate the discussion that is running in circles for days Participate in solving the case(s) by commenting from a neutral, policy-based perspective Opening comments by Volunteer Marek Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Obviously I disagree with Skapperod's characterization of this dispute. Pretty much all the relevant info has been gone over at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 145#Andrzej Michalek "Slowianie Zachodni. Monarchie Wczesnofeudalne". The Map is based on a reliable source and backed up with two additional reliable sources. It does not claim that "Stralsund" existed at the time, merely that the Duke campaigned in the area - this is simply incorrect on Skapperod's part. Likewise, while the original phrasing of the related text may have suggested that "Stralsund" existed at the time, the text has been appropriately reworded. The Rugen/Rugia issue is different. First, the Polish-Danish expedition against Wolin is placed by sources at either 1129 or 1130. Second, the source states that the expedition to Rugia took place after the Danes sailed to Pomeranian towns (Wolin). So there's no necessary contradiction here. However, it is true that different source put the Polish-Danish expedition to Rugen at different years (1121, 1123, 1126, or this one, 1130) - this is simply due to incomplete historical record. I'm open to phrasing this better to reflect this ambiguity in the sources. However, what I do object to is the contention (unsupported by sources) that such an expedition never took place. Overall, Skapperod has failed to back up his claims with a single source, he's just been trying to create pretexts to question the info which *is* based on reliable sources. Volunteer Marek 20:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC) Lutici, Pomerania during the High Middle Ages discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I volunteer here at the DRN noticeboard. This doesn't mean I have any special powers or what I say is more important that anyone else. It simply means that I am impartial and will try mediate this dispute as best I can. Now, after reading through the dispute on the RS noticeboard I find myself slightly confused to what the basis of the dispute actually is. There's a lot of claims by one party against the sourcing and inclusion of sourced information. Skäpperöd, are you able to provide a source that contradicts Marek's statements? Additionally, as far as I can tell the claim that "A campaign of Bolesław I Chrobry against Stralsund/Stralow in 1121 (which includes the claim that that place even existed by 1121" was resolved in the RS discussion with Marek agreeing to clarify the wording to remove ambiguity. If this is, in fact, the case then I see no reason for that to be brought to this DRN discussion and would request that Skapperod strikes it from the dispute overview. If he feels that it is not resolved then he is welcome to keep it in but we will be tackling each item seperately to avoid confusion Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 12:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Hey Cabe6403, thank you for volunteering for this. My point is that not all information that can be sourced must be included, it depends on how authorative the source is: WP:EXCEPTIONAL policy, which is an integral part of WP:V, says that "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources" are "red flags that should prompt extra caution." WP:PSTS policy, part of WP:NOR, says '"Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic or evaluative claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." The claims and map inserted by VM fail support by any secondary source: The claims regarding 1121 [30][31][32][33] and the map drawn by VM are based solely on an identical map [34] in a tertiary source by a non-expert for the region in question. The claims regarding 1130 [35][36][37] are based solely on the same book (tertiary source) where the map is from, quote and pg nr. were not provided despite a respective request. My stance is that per the above-cited policies, the material does not meet the criteria for inclusion, regardless of whether there are sources directly contradicting it or not. It is sufficient to note that there are no secondary sources at all supporting either VM's map or VM's edits linked above. I'd like to have an agreement here on this important point. Regarding "as far as I can tell the claim that "A campaign of Bolesław I Chrobry against Stralsund/Stralow in 1121 (which includes the claim that that place even existed by 1121" was resolved in the RS discussion with Marek agreeing to clarify the wording to remove ambiguity." This has made some progress regarding the wording but is not resolved, as the map is still in the articles, and so is the claim that Stralsund existed in 1121 (VM has just exchanged the word Stralsund for the Polish exonym Strzałów). The 1939 secondary source which was initially thought by VM to confirm the disputed information turned out to not confirm that, it actually says "the Polish conquest also most likely covered the towns of Kockow (Güztkow) and Dymin (Demmin)" [38] and "probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund" [39]. That is not stating a route or capture, and it is also far away from claiming that Stralsund existed in 1121, it is clearly marked as speculation by the author. Apart from that 1939 book, no other secondary sources speculate about the campaign probably taking that route, even though the campaign is widely considered by secondary sources. So we have an UNDUE issue here, we still have a map lacking secondary sources, a map failing to support article text, and a slight falsification (VM's "in the area of Strzałów (future Stralsund)" which implies that this place existed and was later transformed somehow, in contrast to "vicinity of today's Stralsund" per the source, which does not imply that this place existed back then). Regarding the 1130 joint Polish-Danish expedition against Rügen claimed by VM, this is still completely unsettled, no secondary sources supporting that claim have been provided. I have in the above-linked discussions provided secondary sources for a joint Danish-Polish expedition against neighboring Wollin though and think the author just confused placenames, but I maintain that it has not to be proven that the information inserted by VM is false, but that it first needs to be substantiated that this information even meets the criteria for inclusion per above-cited policies before we engage in weeks of discussion. In the context of a mention of Boleslaw and the "Rugi" in 1135, there are some sources directly contradicting an 1130 capture of Rügen, e.g. the expert for Pomeranian history Lucht, Dietmar: Pommern und das Reich vom Beginn des 12. Jahrhunderts bis zum Jahre 1181, in: Baltische Studien Ser. NF, vol. 70 (1984), pp. 7-21, here p. 14: "davon, daß der Polenherzog jemals nach Rügen gekommen ist, ist jedenfalls nichts überliefert"; also Barth, Reinhard et al.: Die Chronik der Kreuzzüge, Gütersloh/München 2003, p. 88: "Rügen, das er noch nicht unterworfen hatte." The key issue though, as above, is the lack of secondary sources supporting an 1130 Polish-Danish expedition to Rügen. 16:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC) The claims regarding 1121 [50][51][52][53] and the map drawn by VM are based solely on an identical map [54] in a tertiary source by a non-expert for the region in question . No, this is simply not true. First, the word "solely" is false. Three additional reliable secondary sources have been provided to back up the map, in addition to the reliable source the map is based on. Second, not a single source has been provided by Skapperod to contradict the info found in map. Instead he's making exceptional claims that this is an exceptional claim. It's not. Third, the author of the book is a military historian, the publishing house specializes in history books. I guess one could describe this as a "tertiary sources" but so what? Tertiary sources can be used on Wikipedia. And like I said, it's also backed up by secondary sources. Fourth, if you really think that "in the area of Strzałów (future Stralsund)" is a "slight falsification" then I'm fine with the wording "vicinity of today's Stralsund" (nota bene, a settlement called Strzalow probably DID exist at the time) Fifth, I would prefer to have the map/text issue resolved before we move on to the Rugia/Rugen issue since that one's much more complicated. This one's here is pretty straightforward and I don't understand why Skapperod insists on wasting time on it.Volunteer Marek 17:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Three additional reliable secondary sources have been provided to back up the map - VM, can you provide these sources here for me. It would be helpful also if you could explicitly state which part(s) of the sources back up the map. Skapperod, likewise to you, are you able to provide a source contrary to VMs map. We will tackle the issue with the map before we move on so if both contributors could refrain from discussing the other topic until we have resolved the map I'd appreciate it. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 18:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Sure. The original source is Andrzej Michalek, "Slowianie Zachodnie. Monarchie Wczesnofeudalne". [40] [41], 2007, Bellona Publishing House, one of the most respected publishers in Poland when it comes to history books. The other sources are: "Bolesław III Krzywousty" by Karol Maleczynski. This is an older but reliable source by a prominent historian, widely cited in subsequent later works [42]. For the relevant passage search for "Stralsund" and use google translate. Atlas Historyczny Polski - Historical Atlas of Poland, 1989 (I believe there are more recent editions with the same material). This source has a map showing areas "conquered" (that's a bit of a strong word as there was very little actual fighting that took place, the Duke just marched through and obtained oaths of fealty) by Boleslaw Krzywousty, up to Stralsund/Strzalow and including Demmin and Kockow (I assume that Demmin and Kockow are not under dispute by Skapperod any longer) The Polish Way: A Thousand-Year History of the Poles and Their Culture, with a relevant excerpt available here [43] (I hope linking to it does not violate copyright). Adam Zamoyski is a British/American historian of Polish descent. The relevant excerpt is "He (Boleslaw Krzywousty) recaptured the whole area up to and well beyond the Oder, as far as the Island of Rugen" - "as far as Island of Rugen" would include the area of Stralsund/Strzalow. Volunteer Marek 18:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Re Michalek - the very tertiary source (according to the wikipedia definition in the WP:PSTS policy) which is disputed here. Not a secondary source. Re Maleczynski, Karol: Bolesław III Krzywousty, Lwow 1939 (repr. Wroclaw 1975), p. 154 [44] [45] (Same as [46] but not as messy). This is exactly the 1939 secondary source I referred to above. Maleczynski contradicts Michalek's map by saying that probably the 1121 campaign covered Demmin and the vicinity of today's Stralsund. So no implying that Stralsund was there in 1121, as the map suggests, and clearly marking the course of the campaign as mere speculation, not as a definite fact as the map suggests by its arrows. For the map to match that secondary source, it needs to have huge question marks all over the respective campaign arrows and "today's" added to Stralsund, and then there is no point in having that map. This secondary source I provide as the requested secondary source contradicting the map. Re Atlas Historyczny Polski - tertiary source, needs pg. nr. and evaluation if it is referring to the 1121 campaign or to the 1135 Hoftag of Merseburg Re Zamoyski, Adam: The Polish Way, London 1987 (online excerpt) - tertiary source, no mention of an 1121 campaign, no mention of Demmin, Gützkow, Stralsund. The Rügen sentence might refer to the Merseburg Hoftag of 1135. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Re Michalek - I don't know what a "very tertiary" source is. Tertiary sources though are fine though. Cambridge Medieval History series are a tertiary sources. You're stretching. What you've left out of WP:PSTS is "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources.", which shows that tertiary sources are fine. They are used throughout Wikipedia. Re Maleczynski - Maleczynski DOES NOT contradict Michalek. He just says "probably" - how is that a contradiction? That is a pretty insane definition of "contradicts". If I say "X went to the store to buy milk" and you reply "yeah, probably", did you just contradict me? Also the map doesn't have "Stralsund" in it anymore, just Strzalow. And I was the one that provided this source not you. Re the other two - the main point is that they don't contradict and support the other two sources. Now can you actually provide a source which really (not "pretend") contradicts the map and the sentence? I've been asking for this over and over and over again, and your refusal to provide such a source or sources is to a large extent what had stalled the discussion at WP:RSN. Volunteer Marek 19:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC) The New Cambridge Medieval History Vol IV Part 2 page 283. supports VM re Boleslaw “ he then conquered western Pomerania, reaching Rugen in 1123” If there is doubting Thomas, I can make a PDF copy and have an administrator confirm. Please contact me by email and I can forward copy. Also I also have the Polish Atlas VM refers to, it is a professional study published in 1998 by a Polish government sponsored topographical organization. I can also do a PDF of the map in question and have an administrator confirm. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC) You can do a quick and dirty confirm on Amazon books of The New Cambridge Medieval History Vol IV Part 2 page 283- do a search for Rugen and it pops up.“ he then conquered western Pomerania, reaching Rugen in 1123” --Woogie10w (talk) 21:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC) The New Cambridge Medieval History is peer reviewed secondary source that that is reliable.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC) How does "reaching Rugen in 1123" support any of the claims regarding Demmin and Stralsund in 1121 or VM's map for the 1121 campaign or a joint Danish-Polish invasion of Rügen in 1130? Skäpperöd (talk) 06:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Right, I'd say that settles that, the sources Marek is using are suitable. Do both parties accept this and, if so, can we move onto the other issue at hand? Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 05:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC Which one of the sources is suitable for what? Could you please be more clear on how which source is supporting which statement, or the map? Skäpperöd (talk) 06:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Cabe6403 Re VM's sources, I can send you by E-mail (berndd11222@yahoo.com) a PDF of map in Polish Atlas and page in Zamoyski book. The New Cambridge Medieval History should ice the cake. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC) How is a sentence about 1123 supposed to 'ice the cake' about the disputed details of the 1121 and 1130 campaigns, and VM's map? Skäpperöd (talk) 12:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Per The New Cambridge Medieval History Page 283 " In 1121 he (Boleslaw) imposed feudal overlordship over Prince Warcislaw of western Pomerania."--Woogie10w (talk) 12:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Undisputed. Do you have any sources regarding the disputed details? Do you uphold your claim that the 1123 sentence has anything to do with the details in question here? Skäpperöd (talk) 13:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod, can you PLEASE present some source of your own? This discussion has been going on for two weeks now and you have failed to present a single source to support your claims. Without that I don't see how we can progress here.Volunteer Marek 13:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC) That there are no secondary sources about that is exactly my point. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC) But there are, or at least is. Given above. Can you please stop denying the obvious.Volunteer Marek 14:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod's source Herrmann is available via interlibrary loan, it will take me weeks to obtain a copy. Skapperod please be nice and send PDF/MSword copies of relevant pages in Herrman to a 3rd party admin to verify. This is turning into root canal, give us a break we need to close this and move on. In any case I will request Herrmann via interlibrary loan.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC) I'm not clear on what "Herrmann" source you're referring to.Volunteer Marek 13:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Herrmann, Joachim (1985). Die Slawen in Deutschland: Geschichte und Kultur der slawischen Stämme westlich von Oder und Neiße vom 6. bis 12. Jahrhundert--Woogie10w (talk) 13:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Ah, ok, but I'm not sure how that source is relevant here or if Skapperod actually brought it up in this instance.Volunteer Marek 13:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Herrmann has nothing to do with the disputed claims discussed here. Please do not discuss issues unrelated to the dispute at hand. Woogie10w claimed that Jerzy Wyrozumski's overview in the New Cambridge Medieval History 4.2, p. 283 "supports VM re Boleslaw". It obviously does not. I have access to the book and neither the 1123 sentence Woogie10w quoted nor anything else in there supports any details in question here, i.e. nothing about an 1121 campaign in or north of Demmin, nothing supporting VM's map, nothing supporting an 1130 Danish-Polish campaign against Rügen. At this point I'd first like to hear a detailed response of Cabe re [47] so discussion does not derail further. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC) I think you were supposed to present your sources first, before he responds.Volunteer Marek 14:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Per CMH4/2in 1121 he (Boleslaw) imposed feudal overlordship over Prince Warcislaw of western Pomerania. which includes Demmin and what is today Straslund. Skäpperöd cited Herrmann as a source in the Lutici article , I will request to see this book and see what author actually wrote about Boleslaw's campaign--Woogie10w (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC) That the area of Demmin and todays Stralsund were part of Wartislaw's realm in 1121 is not in the source (and I dispute that), and even if it was, the sentence could not be read as if there had been a military campaign in that specific area in 1121. Herrmann (as above) pp. 384-5 mentions the 1121/22 campaigns to Stettin/Sczcecin and the Müritz (for that referring to Ebo III/4, as most secondary sources do). No other destinations are mentioned for that campaign (since Ebo does not mention anything but the Müritz). Again, that Wartislaw became Boleslaw's vassal in 1121/22 and that Boleslaw in 1121 launched a campaign from the Oder to the Müritz and back is undisputed, the 1121 dispute is about the claim that this campaign led Boleslaw through Demmin and the area north of it. So far, the literature provided here does not make such a claim, except for Michalek, and we should await Cabe's response on how which source is supporting which statement, or the map, or none. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC) I just submitted a request at the New York Public Library for Das historische Pommern : Personen, Orte, Ereignisse / von Roderich Schmidt and Die Slawen in Deutschland : Joachim Herrmann. Both books should be available by Saturday. Lets see what German historians have said about Boleslaw's campaigns. Both of these German sources were cited in the Lutici article as support for the campaign in West-Pommern.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:15, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Apologies for the delay in responding. I was pulled offsite in work today so didn't have a chance to drop by. The way I understood the dispute was that Skapperod was primarily disputing the 'source' of the placenames and details on the map created by VM. Woogie10w then confirmed the reliability of these sources (I also have the Polish Atlas VM refers to, it is a professional study published in 1998 by a Polish government sponsored topographical organization) and the details presented in VMs version of the map. Skapperod, you are looking for explicit statement in a RS that 'the area of Demmin and todays Stralsund were part of Wartislaw's realm in 1121' am I correct? Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 19:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Not quite, whether Wartislaw had been in control of the area by 1121 or not is not relevant here. I am looking, for quite some time now, for secondary sources supporting the disputed information introduced by VM into two articles and referenced to Michalek, i.e. a 1121 campaign by Boleslaw in the area of Demmin/north of Demmin, VM's map (there, the arrows pointing at Demmin and Stralsund), and a 1130 joint Polish-Danish campaign against Rügen. Apart from the secondary/tertiary issue, I fail to see how the sources presented so far support these claims. You say that "Woogie10w then confirmed [...] the details presented in VMs version of the map." I fail to see that either. Do you see, in any of the presented literature, a confirmation of either the 1121 campaign to Demmin/north of Demmin, or the respective arrows in VM's map, or a joint Danish-Polish campaign in 1130 to Rügen? Where? Skäpperöd (talk) 19:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC) The book (Michalek) on which the map is based on is a reliable source. The other sources which support what is in the Michalek's book are also reliable sources. The only thing you've done is claimed, strangely, that somehow because one sources (Maleczynski) says "probably" that "contradicts" the Michalek source. That is a patently ridiculous understanding of the word "contradicts". You have not presented ANY sources which contradict the map, or the fact that Boleslaw campaigned in the area of Demmin and future Stralsund. At a certain point you need to put some sources on the table rather than just obfuscating, otherwise the discussion becomes pointless.Volunteer Marek 20:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC) And we can discuss the issue of Rugia separately.Volunteer Marek 20:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC) How is This? In 1121/22, Boleslaw III of Poland mounted an expedition into the Müritz area west of the Oder and took duke Wartislaw I of Luticia as a vassel, Boleslaw then controled the region up to Demmin (Dymin)-SourceSchmidt Das historische Pommern , later in 1123 Boleslaw III campaigned in the area of Rugen-Source NCMH4/2. The Polish domination of the region west of the Oder was short lived and Luticia reverted to German control after 1124 Source NCMH4/2 ----Woogie10w (talk) 21:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod, are you able to present any sources that contradict the map created by Marek? I'm also feeling that this is more of a WP:RSN issue. I'm willing to keep it here however if Skapperod is unable to produce a source and continues to question the reliability of sources provided then I will ask that that issue be taken back to the RSN and we move onto the second issue. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 07:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC) @Cabe6403: This is not a RSN issue, and RSN has already failed to solve this. Please, as a neutral 3rd party could you reflect on the following to get the discussion focussed again: (1) Michalek [48] is an overview work about West Slavs not citing references for the claims of interest here. The author of the book has within a few years published similar overviews about East and South Slavs and else published about crusades [49]. It is not an expert source for Pomeranian history, and it does not qualify as a secondary source per WP:PSTS. Can you confirm this assessment? (2) Said book includes a map about the 1121 campaign of Boleslaw III from the Oder river to the Müritz lake [50]. It does not detail the campaign in the text and does not give any sources for the map. The map is basically the same map as the one VM had drawn [51]. On Michalek's and VM's maps, campaign arrows point at Demmin and Stralsund (Demmin, Stralsund and Müritz lake are depicted by their Polish exonyms Dymin, Strzalow and jez. Morzyckie respectively). Can you confirm this assessment? (3) Maleczynski, Karol: Bolesław III Krzywousty, Lwow 1939 (repr. Wroclaw 1975) qualifies as a secondary source per WP:PSTS. On p. 154 he says about the 1121 campaign: "Na zachodzie podbój polski objął znowuż zapewne miejscowości Kocków i Dymin" and "Ekspansja polska i niemiecka zetknęłyby się w taki sposób ze sobą na przestrzeni górnego biegu Piany od Jeziora Morzyckiego ewentualnie po okolice dzisiejszego Stralsundu", i.e. in the West the Polish conquest most likely covered Gützkow (Kockow) and Demmin (Dymin); and German and Polish expansion met in the areas of Müritz lake (jez. Mor.), Peene river (Piana) and probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund (emphasis added). Maleczynski does not say that the campaign targeted Demmin, he considers it "most likely," which contradicts the map presenting that as a definite fact. Maleczynski does not say that the campaign went from Demmin to Stralsund, as depicted on the map, he instead says that German and Polish expansion probably met in that area. Maleczynski does not claim that Stralsund existed in 1121, he is talking about the area of today's Stralsund, thus not supporting the "Strzalow" dot on that map. Can you confirm this assessment? (3a) That Stralsund/Strzalow appears in an 1121 context is especially surprising as expert sources for local history say it was first mentioned in 1234, i.e. more than a century later - Niemeck (2002), p. 78: "Nahezu zeitgleich mit der Gründung des Klosters Neuenkamp findet sich erstmals in der Überlieferung die Siedlung Stralow, das spätere Stralsund erwähnt. Im Jahre 1234 ...;" Kroll & Papay (2007), p. 101: "Stralsund wurde [...] vermutlich um 1230 gegründet und 1234 erstmals urkundlich erwähnt;" Schäfer, Igel & Schindler (2007), p. 213: "In den erhaltenen historischen Urkunden wird die Stadt Stralsund erstmals im Jahre 1234 erwähnt. Dabei handelt es sich um eine Stadtrechtsverleihung, die zeigt, dass Stralsund damals als Ort bereits bestand, wenn auch - wie zu vermuten - noch sehr jung war." Do you agree that a mention in 1121 is thus an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim? (4) None of the other sources brought up here, i.e. Atlas Historyczny Polski,The Polish Way and The New Cambridge Medieval History p. 283 support the claim that the 1121 campaign targeted Demmin and the Stralsund area. Can you confirm this assessment? If not, please cite how which source references which detail. (5) So all we got here about Boleslaw in/north of Demmin in 1121 is a map in a tertiary source not specialized in Pomeranian history and we do not have any secondary source or expert source to confirm this, despite week-long research. We only have one secondary source (Maleczynski) from 1939 speculating that there was a chance that Boleslaw targeted that area in 1121, and which does not claim that Stralsund/Strzalow existed back then. Do you agree with this assessment?Skäpperöd (talk) 10:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC) In the section of the Lutici article Lutici#Division and conversion of the Lutician areas there are two German language sources cited: 1-Herrmann, Joachim (1985). Die Slawen in Deutschland: and 2-Schmidt, Roderich (2009). Das historische Pommern. You quoted from both sources on your talk page yesterday. I ask Skäpperöd to please tell us what these two sources tell us about Boleslaw III’s campaign west of the Oder. Please cite the actual text, not your rendition of what the authors have written.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Let's continue this on my talk page, where I have already provided full quotes. I want the 5 questions above settled first, and though I am primarily interested in the mediator's response, you are of course free to answer them, too. But please, do not add anything beyond that here before this is settled, we can use my talk page for matters unrelated to the question of whether there are any sources supporting the 1121 Demmin/Stralsund bit in Michalek's map. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC) The discussion belongs here not on your talk page. The two German sources cited in the Lutici article are relevant to the issue Boleslaw III’s campaign west of the Oder. Deminin is in fact mentioned as part of the region he controlled. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:10, 5 April 2013 (UTC) No, Demmin is mentioned as part of the area Wartislaw controlled, and it is not mentioned as a target of an 1121 campaign. Full quotes and translation are here, let's continue there. I think we agree that there is nothing in there about a campaign by Boleslaw to Demmin/from Demmin to Stralsund in 1121, so this is not relevant to the discussion here. Let's first hear Cabe6403's assessment of the points I raised above. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Sigh, we're just repeating everything from RSN here. (1) Michalek is an overview work about West Slavs not citing references for the claims of interest here. - it is an overview work but there's nothing wrong with that. And it has an extensive bibliography. (2) - I don't know what the problem is supposed to be here. You're basically saying that my map represents the source accurately (and no, it is not a copyvio as I made sure to make it aesthetically different) (3) - The text and map only state that Boleslaw campaigned in the Strzalow/Stralsund area. It makes no claim that a city or name "Stralsund" existed. Strzalow did exist before Stralsund, though, but that's really irrelevant. Our article on the subject, Stralsund, says At that time (circa 1168-VM), the Dänholm isle and fishing village, both at the site of the latter town, were named Strale / Stralow, Polabian for "arrow". Yes I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source but that does suggest that Strzalow existed before 1234. Anyway, like I said, that's actually irrelevant here. The wording states "in the area of future Stralsund", so that's taken care off. (4) - The other sources support the claim that Boleslaw controlled these areas, including Demmin and Kockow. They don't explicitly state "Boleslaw campaigned in these areas" but, given that we have OTHER sources for that, it shows that the information is broadly consistent across several sources. (5) - Again, saying "probably" is not just "speculation" (I guess that's a better way of putting it than claiming that the word "probably" "contradicts" the map - I'm happy to see you've backed off that ridiculous claim), it actually supports the source. The Malezynski source, while a bit old, is widely quoted and respected. I can provide a link to a book review from the 1970's which basically says it's still THE source on Boleslaw (gimme time to find link and get jstor access). And again, Skapperod has not provided a single source to contradict the map or the text. Rather he's just been running the discussion in circles over and over again.Volunteer Marek 17:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Strzalow is just a Polish exonym for Stralsund. If you have a source that a place named "Strzalow did exist before Stralsund" please present it. For the rest, I am looking forward to see Cabe6403's assessment. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC) It's also essentially the name of the place before it became "Stralsund". But like I already said several times, that's irrelevant here.Volunteer Marek 19:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC) No, the first documented name of Stralsund was Stralow, which was used in the first mention of Stralsund in 1234. I have provided the respective sources in point (3a) of the list above waiting for Cabe's assessment. Please provide a source that some place named Strzalow existed before that, especially in 1121. That is relevant here as you put a place named Strzalow on your map for the 1121 campaign and claim it was targeted. How is that not contradicting the expert sources on Stralsund above who maintain that the place was first mentioned in 1234 (under the name "Stralow")? Skäpperöd (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC) "Stralow" is just a medieval chronicler's rendering of "Strzalow". The distinction doesn't matter. This is an irrelevant and minor point whose only purpose seems to be to derail the discussion.Volunteer Marek 20:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Not at all. Where did you take that "'Stralow' is just a medieval chronicler's rendering of 'Strzalow'" from? "Stralow" appears in the charter of 1234, as the first mention of Stralsund ever according to the sources I presented. You can view the document here. If you say it existed in 1121, you need sources of equal quality saying so or that information needs to be removed. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC) And all that the map and text claim is that Boleslaw campaigned in the area of future Stralsund/Strzalow/Stralow. It DOES NOT contradict "expert sources" (which ones? You haven't provided any, expert or not!). You're pretending that the map/text makes some extraordinary claim about a "Stralsund" existing in 1121 in order to get rid of the map as a whole, simply per WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The map/text makes no such extraordinary claims, they're purely your inventions.Volunteer Marek 20:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC) That is easily proven false. First, re "It DOES NOT contradict "expert sources" (which ones? You haven't provided any, expert or not!)" - I have maintained from the beginning that no history of Stralsund sees its beginnings that early (i.e. in 1121 or before), and I have provided sources that it was first mentioned in 1234. If it was first mentioned in 1234, this excludes a mention in 1121. Second, re "all that the map and text claim is that Boleslaw campaigned in the area of future Stralsund/Strzalow/Stralow." That is also not true and one of the reasons for this discussion. If the map and the text were actually talking about "future Stralsund/Strzalow/Stralow" we would not have this part of the dispute. But this is what you actually wrote: The Pomerania during the HMA article, as of now states "1121 [:] Expedition east of the Oder. Bolesław took control of Gützkow (Kocków) and Demmin (Dymin), and campaigned in the area of Stralow (Stralsund) and Müritz lake" That wording was added by you [52] [53] [54]. The Lutici article, as of now states that Boleslaw in 1121 probably campaigned "in the area of Strzałów (future Stralsund)". That wording was added by you [55] [56] [57] [58]. The map [59] drawn by you and added to above articles, claims to be about Boleslaw's 1121 campaign and has a dot described as Strzalow with a campaign arrow pointing at it. So your statement that I was "pretending that the map/text makes some extraordinary claim about a 'Stralsund' existing in 1121" is false, the text and the map are indeed claiming the existance of that place in 1121, and that claim was added by you. If you do not uphold that claim, fix the map and the wording accordingly to make it clear that there was no Stralsund/Strzalow/whatever in 1121, and we are done with that part of the dispute. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC) I have just seen the sources cited in the Lutici article. They make it clear that Boleslaw led the crusade against the pagans and that Deminin was destroyed.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC) "crusade" - in 1121? source? ---- "Deminin was destroyed." - in 1121? by Boleslaw? source? Skäpperöd (talk) 19:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC) On pages 105-106 of Schmidt writes about Boleslaw’s mission to bring Christianity to Pommerania. Boleslaw had the support of the Church hierarchy as well as the German Emperor. I characterize this as a Crusade. On Page 386 of Herrmann there is mention of an account by Edo in June 1128 of the destruction in Demmin. On Page 386 of Herrmann there is an important point-in 1135 Boleslaw agreed to pay tribute to the German Empire for his 12 year occupation Pommerania and Rugen. In other words Skapperod, Herrmann puts Boleslaw in Pommerania and Rugen from 1123-1135. Boleslaw led the Crusade against the Lutians with the support of the German Empire and the Church. The Pommeranian Duke Wladislaw was an alley of Boleslaw in his campaign.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC) You misunderstood Herrmann, I have the book in front of me. Neither did Ebo report a destruction of Demmin in 1128 (per Herrmann or the original), nor did Herrman claim that Pomerania and Rügen were occupied by Boleslaw. I can provide you with translations/quotes from Herrmann on my talk page if you want, but let's focus on 1121 here. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Skäpperöd I don't need your translation - 1.Ebo reported the wartime environment in Demmin in 1128 2. Boleslaw agreed in 1135 to pay 12 years back tribute to the German Emperor for Pommerania and Rugen.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Skapperod I see your point re Edo in 1128, that was during Lothars campaign. However Schmidt mentions Demmin as an objective in Wladaslaw's campaign, Wladaslaw at that time was vassal of Poland.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC) VM's map is correct, he just needs to tweek the dates a bit 1122-1124, erase Straslund and add Rugen(per NCMH4-2). At this point we are spinning wheels. Lets move on.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC) Without access to these books it is hard for me to make a statement one way or another. However I will remind you that what I say is, by no means, binding. I am not given any additional authority over any participant in any dispute on the DRN. My judgement carries no more weight than others. That being said, Skapperod, your points: You are claiming that the source is not a secondary source based on your opinion because " The author of the book has within a few years published similar overviews about East and South Slavs and else published about crusades". I do not see why this means the source is not reliable and viable. Additionally, another user with access to the book states there is an extensive bibliography. Yes, the maps are similar. This is not an issue. Regarding whether its sourced or not, without the book I can't say. I'd imagine its referenced in the text and the map is synthesised from the information to hand by the book author. Sources can do that, it is us that cannot [[WP:SYNTH[[ The author does not say the settlement was mentioned by name in 1121, you say that point yourself. He never makes this claim, he is referencing the name of the area as it is known later in history. Therefore it is not an exceptional claim as there is no claim to begin with. I actually see no one claiming that the settlement existed in 1121, rather that events happened in the area. This is similar to referencing ancient history in, say Mesopotamia as taking place in today's Iraq - true but no claim that a country called Iraq existed thousands of years ago. No, not without the sources. I rely on others who do have access and WP:AGF. I do not agree with your assessment. First off, it's a loaded question due to your phrasing and as there are many variables to consider. Now, can I ask, what do you consider a resolution of this? Is the adjustment that Woogie suggested suitable or do you maintain the map should be removed in its entirety? Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 21:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC) re 1: You misread part of my statement, I wrote that Michalek "does not qualify as a secondary source per WP:PSTS." WP:PSTS the policy defining what in wikipedia is considered a secondary or tertiary source and how they are to be used in articles. It says "A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources [...]" and Michalek does not do that. He is referencing not one primary source with regard to the 1121 campaign. In contrast, eg. Maleczynski does reference primary sources and provides his own thinking, thus being a secondary source per policy. WP:PSTS says about tertiary sources that they "are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources." That is Michalek, a broad overview summarizing the West Slavs' history. Novel theses are not expected from tertiary sources. re 2: "I'd imagine its referenced in the text and the map is synthesised from the information to hand by the book author." No, the information in question here (Boleslaw's campaign in 1121) is only in Michalek's map. No reference, no in-text discussion. You can ask VM to confirm that if you do not want to go through the google books preview. But I think this is undisputed. re 3: Exactly. Maleczynski is very precise about that, and that is in line with the sources provided in (3a). But the exceptional claim I am talking about, i.e. that Stralsund (under whatever name) existed in 1121, is not in Maleczynski, but in Michalek's map [60] and VM's reproduction of it [61], which depict such a place in 1121. If it was the case that, as in Maleczynski, Stralsund is mentioned as a future place, then this part of the dispute was settled. But VM claims that it existed in 1121 in the articles [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] and the map [69]. re 4: The sources are online and linked above, except for the atlas, but Woogie10w had offered above to send you a scan of the respective page per mail. Some are non-English, you can ask VM for the respective quotes and translation for Polish ones and you can ask me the same for German ones. Whether a source references that Boleslaw's campaign in 1121 targeted Demmin and (future) Stralsund is a yes-or-no question, either it is in there or not. re 5: Then please name the variables and we sort that out. Basically, whether something is in a given source or matches WP:PSTS is a yes-or-no-question which can be solved one by one. re "Now, can I ask, what do you consider a resolution of this? Is the adjustment that Woogie suggested suitable or do you maintain the map should be removed in its entirety?" -- I want it clearly marked in the text that whether Boleslaw's campaign to the Müritz in 1121 targeted Demmin and areas north of it is speculative. I prefer to have Stralsund (under whatever name) not mentioned at all, and if, it needs to be unambiguous that it was not there in 1121. I maintain, that per WP:UNDUE, a mention about Boleslaw's expedition to the Müritz possibly targeting Demmin/areas north of it, needs to be as short as possible, because it does not have sufficient coverage in secondary sources. We can follow Woogie10w's proposal to remove Stralsund from VM's map. The map has other issues, too, eg. presenting a speculation about a possible route (eg Demmin) as a given. That could be remedied by applying question marks to (a) Demmin and (b) the campaign arrow pointing from Demmin northwards. If we have agreed on that, we can move on to discussing another problem with the map, i.e. discuss how it can be properly shown that Stettin/Szczecin was taken in the winter of 1121/22, while the Müritz campaign was in 1121. If this is disputed, I will provide the respective sources. Right now, the map looks like Boleslaw first went to Stettin and then to the Müritz, while it obviously was the other way around. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:05, 6 April 2013 (UTC) This is getting extremely tiresome. (1) Yes Michalek is a tertiary source. But there's no "novel theses" here. You've made that up. (2) Boleslaw's campaign as a whole IS discussed in text of the book. Michalek does not name Stralsund explicitly in the text but generally states that Boleslaw arrived in the "land of the Chyzans". The Chyzans are the Kessinians, with their main fort at modern day Kessin, which is actually to the West of Stralsund. Hence, the text and the map are consistent with each other. The map just provides other details. (3) If by "very precise" you mean he says "future Stralsund" sure. In Michael's map "Strzalow" is explicitly marked. For what it's worth - and like I keep saying, this is an irrelevant red herring pretext - Michalek has maps for later time periods where he includes both the name "Strzalow" and the later name "Stralsund". This suggest he is aware that Strzalow was not Stralsund yet. At any rate (3a) we actually don't know whether Strzalow as a settlement existed and (3b) it doesn't matter because the map just marks the location. (4) I guess he *could* ask you for quotes and translation from sources you provided... oh wait. You didn't provide any sources (5) I agree with Cabe6403 that your presentation of the dispute/issue/sources is highly misleading. Your phrasing does not reflect the sources. As pointed out over and over and over again, if a source says "probably" it is NOT contradicting the claim. And it's "speculation" in the same sense as ALL history is speculation, since we can't jump in a time machine and confirm events for certain. Bottom line is that if a source says "probably in the area of future Stralsund" then that supports the map. You're the only one who somehow tries to flip the logic on its head here and that's why this discussion has been getting silly. As to what you want: I want... - The current wording is duke Boleslaw III of Poland mounted an expedition into the Müritz area,[60] most likely took control of Gützkow (Kocków) and Demmin (Dymin) and probably campaigned in the area of Strzałów (future Stralsund). So the words "most likely" and "probably" are already in there! You already got what you want. I prefer... - sorry, not going to happen. Stralsund is mentioned in the Michalek source, in the Malezynski source and also in this source [70](add that one to the pile). Quote: W rękach polskich ponownie znalazł się Szczecin, wyspy Wolin i Uznam a ponadto na lewym brzegu dolnej Odry szeroki pas ziem, ciągnący się prawdopodobnie na przestrzeni górnego biegu rzeki Piany, od jezior Morzyckich aż po okolice dzisiejszego Stralsundu. Translation: Szczecin, the islands Wolin and Uznam, were once more in Polish hand, and whats more, on the left bank of the Oder a wide pass of land, stretching over the area from the upper flow of the Peene river, to the Murtiz lake, to the area of today's Stralsund. So we got multiple reliable sources which talk about Stralsund. On the other hand we have an anonymous Wikipedia editor Skapperod who just doesn't like the mention of Stralsund in there for some reason. Sorry, we go with the sources. We can follow... - I don't know if that's actually Woogie's proposal, but no, we do not remove Stralsund from the map, just because some guy Skapperod thinks so. It's in the source. Other sources support its inclusion. Sources, sources, sources. If you can present a source which contradicts the map then please do so already! The map... - No, that'd be Original Research. You might want question marks in there but then find a source that has a map with question marks in it. This source doesn't. We stick with sources. The map stays as it is. Bottom line: Sources vs. Skapperod? Sources win. Sorry.Volunteer Marek 07:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC) re "Michalek does not name Stralsund explicitly in the text but generally states that Boleslaw arrived in the "land of the Chyzans". " Can you please provide a pg. nr. and the respective quote? Skäpperöd (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2013 (UTC) re Kowalski (1980), p. 108: "dzisiejszego Stralsundu" / "today's Stralsund" - "today's" ! No claim that Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121. It makes no mention of 1121 anyway, but in the following sentence says that Boleslaw had to pay tribute to the emperor for Western Pomerania, which is referring to 1135. re "we do not remove Stralsund from the map, just because some guy Skapperod thinks so. It's in the source. Other sources support its inclusion. Sources, sources, sources." --- Please cite here, with full quote, sources that claim Stralsund existed, under whatever name, in 1121, in addition to Michalek's map. You have so far failed to do so. re "No, that'd be Original Research. You might want question marks in there but then find a source that has a map with question marks in it." --- It certainly does not violate WP:NOR to draw a map based on a secondary source, i.e. Maleczynski as cited above. If the source says that a campaign probably took a respective course, there is no OR in depicting that with a question mark. Cabe6403? Skäpperöd (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2013 (UTC) "land of the Chyzans" - the page is 101, but actually I was imprecise. The text states that when Lothair got to the land of the Chyzans he could not go further east as he would encounter and risk a war with Boleslaw. My mistake (it's late here and I'm tired), but it doesn't change anything. No claim that Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121. - So what? No claim that Stralsund existed is being made. That's just a bad faithed excuse you invented to try and get rid of the map. Please cite here, with full quote, sources that claim Stralsund existed - No claim is being made that Stralsund existed is being made. That's just a bad faithed excuse you invented to try and get rid of the map. The only claim is that Boleslaw campaigned and controlled the area around future Stralsund. If the source says that a campaign probably took a respective course - yes, and then there's another source that has a map with an arrow in it. I know! Why not we use the source that actually has a map. Maybe some guy named Michalek has wrote a book about it or something... The "question marks" are you a product of your own imagination - i.e. unsourced OR. What's next, we attach confidence intervals to the arrows? And for the millionth time: PLEASE PROVIDE AT LEAST A SINGLE SOURCE WHICH CONTRADICTS THE MAP OR THE TEXT!!!! The fact you have steadfastly refused to do so pretty clearly indicates that at this point you're not conducting this discussion in good faith. This is just being tendentious on your part. Which is why this is so frustrating.Volunteer Marek 09:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC) re Chyzans - Ok, that is what I thought. re "No claim is being made that Stralsund existed is being made." Can you please state explicitly that you do not claim that a place named Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121? That would resolve this part of the dispute. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Can you provide a single source which contradicts the information in the map or in any of the other numerous sources which have been provided? Volunteer Marek 10:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC) You have NOT provided numerous sources supporting the disputed details in the map. Stop claiming that or provide actual page numbers and quotes that support that Boleslaw's 1121 campaign targeted Demmin and Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow (which obviously includes the claim that this place existed back then). All you have provided is one secondary source, Maleczynski (1939), that says probably and today's Stralsund. All other sources provided do not say anything about an 1121 attack on Demmin or Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow. Prove me wrong and provide respective quotes or stop claiming that anyone besides Michalek says so. I have provided, with quotes, [71] expert sources saying that Stralsund/Stralow/whatever was first mentioned in 1234. This contradicts Michalek's map who has it there as a target in 1121. I have also provided quotes of the sources [72] I used for the Müritz campaign, who make no claim about the 1121 campaign targeting Demmin or Stralsund. This information appears only on Michalek's map, a tertiary source written by a non-expert for Pomeranian history. Prove me wrong and provide respective quotes or stop claiming that anyone besides Michalek says so. I repeat my request re "No claim is being made that Stralsund existed is being made." Can you please state explicitly that you do not claim that a place named Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121? That would resolve this part of the dispute. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC) The issue I see here is that Marek is providing a map faithful to the source while Skapperod would prefer every detail of the map be sourced individually (name of the settlements, direction of the arrows etc). It is clear we are unlikely to come to a compromise in this situation so I will make two statements in the hope that this dispute can be resolved. 1 - Marek, a few tweaks have been suggested to the text regarding the map clearer. Would you be willing to implement these suggestions to ensure that readers know that parts of the map are speculation on the behalf of historians (as are all reports about history many years ago - as they say, history is written by the winners) 2 - Skapperod, it is my opinion (in purely a third opinion point of view) that the case for including the map outweighs the case for removing it. I will therefore ask you to concede the inclusion of the map pending minor changes to the text referencing the map in prose. I'm not asking you to like the map, merely to accept its inclusion. In this case, you should agree to disagree. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 10:37, 6 April 2013 (UTC) There is already a consensus here that Michalek's map is a tertiary source. The WP:PSTS policy is binding for us. It says "Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic or evaluative claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." ---> The claim that Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow was attacked by Boleslaw in 1121 has not been published by a reliable secondary source. Policy forbids inclusion. ---> The claim that Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121 has not been published by a reliable secondary source. Policy forbids inclusion. ---> The claim that Demmin was attacked by Boleslaw in 1121 has not been published by a reliable secondary source. There is one secondary source, Maleczynski (1939), saying that it probably happened. Policy forbids inclusion. Unless policy changes or secondary sources are presented for either claim, or the map is changed in a way that it only has information that can be supported by secondary sources, there is no chance for inclusion policy-wise. Next, WP:EXCEPTIONAL is also policy, i.e. binding for us. It says Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. Red flags that should prompt extra caution include: surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; [...] claims [...] that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in [...] history [...]" ---> The claim that in the 1121 campaign Boleslaw targeted Demmin and Stralsund is a surprising claim not covered by multiple mainstream sources, i.e. not by any secondary source, there is only Maleczynski (1939) who says that it probably happened. Policy asks for multiple high-quality sources. ---> The claim that Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow existed in 1121 is likewise a surprising claim not covered by multiple mainstream sources, i.e. not by even one secondary source. Mainstream consensus is that the first mention was in 1234. Policy asks for multiple high-quality sources. As long as these concerns are not eliminated, best by providing high-quality secondary sources explicitely supporting an 1121 campaign by Boleslaw targeting Demmin and Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow, or changing the map accordingly this map must not be included per the policies cited. Cabe6403, how do you want to make your proposal fit with the cited policies? I really only see the chance of either sourcing it to secondary sources (that has failed) or changing it that it fits the secondary sources we got. Same goes for the sentences added by VM that say the same thing as the map and are sourced to the map. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC) It is this kind of purposeful stonewalling and obfuscation that is making a resolution of the dispute impossible here. 1) There are no exceptional claims here, just Skapperod's own invented excuses, unsupported by sources, for getting rid of the map. See red herring fallacy. 2) And bad faith is evident in the selective quoting of the policy in regard to tertiary sources (historical atlases, Cambridge Medieval History, historical encyclopedias, are all tertiary sources used on Wikipedia all the time). For example, the policy also states Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics - that's exactly what the map does. Finally 3) secondary sources supporting and consistent with the map HAVE in fact been provided but Skapperod continues to act as if these didn't exist. Volunteer Marek 16:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Yes, WP:PSTS policy also says "Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources" (you omitted that part in italics here). Where are these secondary (or even primary) sources for Boleslaw targeting Demmin and Stralsund in 1121? That tertiary sources can be used as cited from the policy above does not invalidate the fact that there must be secondary sources, too, which is unambiguously stated in the same policy (quoted above) and which is also the premise for using tertiary sources (as quoted in the first sentence of this para). That's policy, and binding. So instead of repeating ad nauseum that secondary sources have been provided for Boleslaw targeting Demmin and Stralsund in 1121, cite one that actually says so. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod the map can be sourced to secondary sources that have been presented in the discussion: New Cambridge Medieval History 4/2 Page 283- Boleslaw was responsible for bringing Christianity to Pommerania. In 1121 he (Boleslaw) imposed feudal overlordship over Prince Warcislaw of western Pomerania, he then conquered western Pomerania, reaching Rugen in 1123” In 1124 he eased the rigorous conditions of this suzeranity. Schmidt, Roderich (2009). Das historische Pommern, p. 113: Boleslaw reached lake Müritz and his vassal Wartislaw I conquered the Demmin area. Atlas historyczny Polski (1998) shows Polish control of West Pommeranian region as a vassal state from 1122-1127. I rest my case on these sources--Woogie10w (talk) 12:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC) None of these reference Boleslaw targeting Demmin or Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1121. These are the disputed details, and we need secondary sources for this and not for something else. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Skäpperöd VM's map is supported by reliable sources, IMO it needs some minor tweeking, 1121 to 1122. We should be thanking VM for putting in the time to prepare the map.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:33, 6 April 2013 (UTC) "VM's map is supported by reliable sources" - then please, cite where they reference Boleslaw targeting Demmin or Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1121, which is a central part of the map. So far it's only Michalek, and he is a non-expert tertiary source. If you change the date to 1122, you need secondary sources for Boleslaw targeting Demmin or Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1122, and also for the Müritz in 1122 which is problematic (since in literature it is 1121). Skäpperöd (talk) 15:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Per NCMH By 1119 Boleslaw subjugated Gdansk-Pommerania he then conquered western Pomerania in 1123 reached Rugen. In 1121 he (Boleslaw) imposed feudal overlordship over Prince Warcislaw of western Pomerania. VM's map is correct --Woogie10w (talk) 16:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC) NCMH says nothing about the 1121 (or any other) campaign targeting Demmin and Stralsund. The conquest of eastern and western Pomerania and the imposition of feudal overlordship is already in the article and is not disputed. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC) From one of the source provided: Na zachodzie podbój polski objął znowuż zapewne miejscowości Kocków i Dymin - "In the west the Polish conquest most likely covered the towns of Kockow and Dymin" (i.e. Demmin). So it's sitting right there, it has been mentioned above, but yet Skapperod STILL keeps on insisting that this isn't backed up by a secondary source (in addition to Michalek), as if the source had magically evaporated between yesterday and today. It's a classic case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.Volunteer Marek 16:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC) That is Maleczynski (1939), and you can not source an information "that and that happened" with a reference saying "that and that probably happened." Also, there is absolutely nothing about Boleslaw targeting Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1121 in Maleczynski, he just says that German and Polish expansion probably met in the vicinity of today's Stralsund. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC) You're just engaged in playing semantic games and trying to deny the obvious. One more time. If one source says "X happened" and another source says "X probably happened" the two sources are NOT in conflict with one another, they support each other. To deny this is simply bad faithed stonewalling. Likewise if a source says that "German and Polish expansion probably met in the vicinity of today's Stralsund" that SUPPORTS the contention that Boleslaw campaigned in the vicinity of today's Stralsund's. Again, to try and pretend that this isn't case is just pure SPIN. You've invented your own particular red herring and are trying to make the argument about that red herring, not about the actual issue. And there is the third source which says that Boleslaw came to control an area up to (future) Stralsund, which is, again, consistent with him campaigning in the area. Can you provide a single source which contradicts the information in the map or in any of the other numerous sources which have been provided?Volunteer Marek 17:07, 6 April 2013 (UTC) And here is a source - on a not really related topic - which uses the name "Stralsund" for 1168, when "Stralsund" is supposed not to have existed [73]. Here's the thing - some settlement on the spot of future Stralsund most likely existed (in 1168 and probably 1121). It was probably called Stralow/Strzalow. Not sharing Skapperod's obsession with... with, well getting rid of a particular map and obtaining his way and only his way on Wikipedia, historians will sometime refer to "Stralsund" before it was actually called "Stralsund" or as a simple short hand for "area around future Stralsund". There's nothing wrong with that.Volunteer Marek 17:12, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod, At this point I am beginning to get pissed offWP:IDHT, we have haggled way to long about VMs map. The sources clearly support the map, there is no doubt. It is time to move on.--Woogie10w (talk) 17:04, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Break Skapperod, consensus is against you in this matter, from a third opinion POV I believe the points Marek and Woogie are putting forward are legit and you are fixating on details per WP:IDHT. I will therefore ask again that you to concede the inclusion of the map pending minor changes to the text referencing the map in prose. I'm not asking you to like the map, merely to accept its inclusion. In this case, you should agree to disagree. If that can be done we can move on to the other dispute. If you are not willing to accept this then I am unsure what other avenue to pursue regarding Dispute Resolution since it is a voluntary process and requires one or both parties to compromise. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 17:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Cabe6403, as a mediator in this content dispute, where one party says "it's not covered by secondary sources" and the other party says "it is covered by secondary sources," I expect you to actually look at the sources provided, most are online and each one can be made accessible to you and translated if you wish. My claim that an attack by Boleslaw on Demmin and Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1121 can not be referenced to any secondary source can be easily rebutted by providing quotes from secondary sources unambigously saying so. Likewise, VM's claim that there are secondary sources stating an attack by Boleslaw on Demmin and Stralsund/Stralow/Strzalow in 1121 can be easily confirmed by providing exactly the same quotes. I think that not looking at the sources and asking me to agree [74] on this proposal [75] which got the dates wrong (that the Müritz campaign took place in 1121 is referenced and undisputed) is not a solution here. What I'd settle for re the article text about the Demmin/Stralsund bit is quoting and attributing the only secondary source we got that actually refers to these places in connection with Boleslaw's 1121 campaign, i.e. Maleczynski (1939). That would look like this: ... [sentence about Boleslaw's campaign from the Oder to the Müritz in 1121].[fn for sec. sources and Ebo] Maleczynski (1939) says that Boleslaw thereby "most likely took Demmin/Dymin and Gützkow/Kockow" and, with reference to the contemporary campaign of Lothair of Süpplingenburg, "German and Polish expansion met at Müritz and Peene, and probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund/Strzalow."[fn for Maleczynski with original quote in Polish] After that sentence, I'd add that it had also been proposed that Boleslaw went via Nieden, and about the dispute about that. I'd still strongly advise against keeping the map in its current state because of the lack of secondary sources supporting the Demmin/Stralsund bit in it. If this is going to be decided by numbers and not by sources here, I'd at least want an attribution in the caption like Route proposed by Michalek. I maintain though that per WP:PSTS policy the map should not be in there at all. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC) on page 51/52 of Schmidt, Roderich (2009). Das historische Pommern, -Google Books Wratislaw was a vassal of Poland, he promised Pomerania to Poland, he paid tribute and was required to provide armed forces. He agreed to accept Christianity. In 1121/22 Boleslaw conquered the Settin-Oder region, his offensive toward lake Muritz was a brief episode, next Wratislaw with "total Polish approval" "wohlpolnischer Billigung" engaged in a campaign to subdue west Pomerania and conquered the fortress of Demmin.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC) Woogie, you mean Wratislaw. Skapperod, what's a source for Nieden? The map satisfies all wikipedia policies and more. It's fine.Volunteer Marek 01:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC) And I should note that I'm only asking about Nieden out of interest. It's actually significantly to the East so it has no bearing on the Stralsund issue. He went through both - there's no "alternative" route here. Nieden is basically that big arrow from Szczecin to Demmin, just not marked explicitly.Volunteer Marek All three of the arrows on VMs map are backed up with reliable sources: 1-lake Muritz by-Schmidt, Roderich (2009). Das historische Pommern, pp 51/52 2-Demmin by-Schmidt, Roderich (2009). Das historische Pommern, pp 51/52 3-Rugen region and Boleslaw is mentioned by name as seizing west Pomerania by the New New Cambridge Modern History 4/2 pp 283 (NCMH is a secondary source, there is an extensive bibliography of primary sources listed in the back of the book, the articles are by recognized scholars)--Woogie10w (talk) 07:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC) 1 - undisputed that Boleslaw went to the Müritz in 1121, source does not claim he went there from Demmin. 2 - not in source that Boleslaw went to Demmin in 1121 (source says Wartislaw took Demmin, w/o date) 3 - not in source that Boleslaw went to Stralsund/Rügen in 1121 (source says Rügen 1123) Cabe6403, these sources are accessible online. I can either provide you with the links or you can ask for the respective quotes so you can confirm/reject either claim. Is anyone opposed to implementing the Maleczynski quote as suggested above? Skäpperöd (talk) 05:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC) I have read the sources but considering they are either in Polish (which I do not speak/read) or German (which I can understand but not to the level required to confirm the exact meaning of a source) I am reliant on other editors providing translations. This has the downside that there is always the possibility of something being lost in translation. VM, what are your thoughts on the proposed sentence that Skapperod suggested above? Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 08:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC) The source for (3) is in English, and can be browsed online [76], let's start with this one then. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC) he [Boleslaw] then conquered western Pomerania, reaching R¨ugen (Rugia) in 1123. In 1121 he imposed feudal overlordship over Prince Warcislaw of western Pomerania; in 1124 he eased the rigorous conditions of this suzerainty. - Clearly he is in the area and you can only impose an overlordship if you're in control of the area so it must be conquered. Vassel: A person or country in a subordinate position to another - Wartislaw is Boleslaws vassel so it's fair to say he was under the command of Boleslaw or acting on orders. Boleslaw himself didn't take anything, his army, generals, commanders, soldiers etc did the taking but he made the decision/order. Pomerania (Pomerelia) contains Stralsund. The source linked states: by 1119 he had subjugated Gdansk-Pomerania (Pommerellen) and he then conquered western Pomerania, reaching R¨ugen (Rugia) in 1123. - the Stralsund area was part of the West Slavic Principality of Rügen so I would say it's safe to say he was there between 1119 and 1123 at the very least Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 13:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC) Pomerelia is the easternmost Pomerania (Gdansk=Danzig). Stralsund/Rügen (and Demmin) are the westernmost Pomerania. The area around Demmin was in 1121 still Lutician land, it only became Pomeranian in the subsequent years. The principality of Rügen was not controlled by Wartislaw in 1121, it was inherited/annexed to the Pomeranian duchy in 1325. This should be undisputed. So everything you based on these assumptions is invalid. For Rügen (1123), I have added some background here. This is not the 1121 campaign. "you can only impose an overlordship if you're in control of the area" - being in control of part of the area certainly helps, but that is not a precondition. Eg when the Danes imposed their overlordship on the principality of Rügen just a few years later (1168), they conquered the main stronghold (Arkona) and surrounding areas, and the prince with his trapped army surrendered. When the Danes imposed their overlordship over Pomerania thereafter, they devastated the coast and had Stettin surrender. They did not take each and every stronghold there was. Or when Henry the Lion imposed his overlordship over the Pomeranians in 1164, it took him one battle in the western periphery of that realm (in Verchen). Once you defeat the main army with the prince, you can dictate the terms of surrender. "Boleslaw himself didn't take anything, his army, generals, commanders, soldiers etc did the taking but he made the decision/order." - Oh no, not Boleslaw or any other prince of that time, at least not in this part of Europe. Why do you believe that? Of course Boleslaw (and Wartislaw, and the emperor) were personally leading their campaigns. We are not talking about the modern world here, but about the Middle Ages in Central Europe! There is a whole lot of questionable interpreting to do if you want to make the source fit the claim. The source itself does not say that Boleslaw targeted Demmin and Stralsund in 1121. You see that one has to twist and turn it and add a lot of additional information to make it fit. And that is the problem here. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC) You're correct about some of the points above, but there's no "twist and turn" here that is necessary for Demmin and Stralsund. In fact it's a bit the other way. What exactly was in the Muritz lake area? Why would Boleslaw go there but leave Demmin, the closest large fort alone? To slap around some poor fisherman? What military leader would leave an enemy stronghold and force at his back and go to some fairly unimportant place? So Demmin definitely fits in. Stralsund does too when one considers the "border" between Boleslaw's area and those of the Emperor, or the possibility that Boleslaw reached Rugen during this campaign. I'll get back to the sentence proposed by Skapperod shortly. It's mostly ok, but it makes it sound like it's only Maleznynski which mentions Demmin and Stralsund - this of course isn't the case, other sources do too. Also does this mean that the objections to the map have been dropped, at least for the time being and the "disputed" tag can be removed?Volunteer Marek 15:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC) "there's no "twist and turn" here that is necessary for Demmin and Stralsund." - if there was not twist and turn necessary, why has not anyone been able to quote a single secondary source saying something like "Boleslaw targeted/took Demmin in 1121" or "Boleslaw targeted/took Stralsund in 1121." We have this one Maleczynski (1939) who says that Boleslaw probably campaigned in this area and that's it. Compare to the Müritz, where there are ample secondary sources saying that Boleslaw targeted the Müritz in 1121 (and he did not target just fishermen there, the fisherman was what he left over). Or Stettin/Szczecin, where there are ample secondary sources saying Boleslaw targeted/took this place in 1121/2. But that is just not the case for Demmin and Stralsund in 1121, and there should neither be a map nor text be included here saying so. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC) You keep demanding a source that says "targeted" or "took" but it's simply not how the campaign worked. Boleslaw pretty much just marched through the area with his troops (probably doing some pillaging in the countryside) and forced the local rulers to give him oaths of fealty. There were no sieges or big battles (aside from Szczecin/Stettin) because the rulers did submit. And as you point out yourself WE DO have a secondary source which says that Boleslaw campaigned in the area. One more time, yes, it uses the word "probably", but the word "probably" SUPPORTS the map. And we have other secondary sources which explicitly state that Boleslaw controlled Demmin and Stralsund - that may not be the exact wording you're demanding here, but that's a problem with your demands, not the sources.Volunteer Marek 19:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC) "forced the local rulers to give him oaths of fealty." - show me one source about one Lutician ruler who gave Boleslaw an oath of fealty during that campaign. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC) @Cabe6403. (1) Do you agree that the claim that Boleslaw's campaign in 1121 targeted/attacked/took Demmin and Stralsund needs secondary sources explicitely saying so to be included in the article, per WP:PSTS and WP:NOR? (2) Do you uphold your assertion that, per the New Cambridge Medieval history, "the Stralsund area was part of the West Slavic Principality of Rügen so I would say it's safe to say he [Boleslaw] was there between 1119 and 1123 at the very least" [77] in the light of my response [78]? (3) Maleczynski says about the 1121 campaign: "Na zachodzie podbój polski objął znowuż zapewne miejscowości Kocków i Dymin" and "Ekspansja polska i niemiecka zetknęłyby się w taki sposób ze sobą na przestrzeni górnego biegu Piany od Jeziora Morzyckiego ewentualnie po okolice dzisiejszego Stralsundu", i.e. "in the West the Polish conquest most likely covered Gützkow (Kockow) and Demmin (Dymin);" and "German and Polish expansion met at Müritz lake (jez. Mor.), at the upper Peene river (Piana) and probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund" (emphasis added). Do you agree with VM's assessment "WE DO have a secondary source [Maleczynski] which says that Boleslaw campaigned in the area. One more time, yes, it uses the word "probably", but the word "probably" SUPPORTS the map." Do you agree with my assessment that Maleczynski clearly marked this as speculation ("most likely," "probably") and thus fails to support a statement/map which presents it as a fact. Do you agree that in-text, it would be best to quote and attribute Maleczynski instead of interpreting him as proposed above [79]. At least as a working solution. If other sources unambiguously support/contradict/add to that part of the 1121 campaign, they can be subsequently verified and included. That way, the knot re in-text presentation of the 1121 campaign was cut and some progress would be made here, and quoting a source will not harm anyone. The sentence containing the quotes would read ... [sentence about Boleslaw's campaign from the Oder to the Müritz in 1121].[fn for sec. sources and Ebo] Maleczynski (1939) says that Boleslaw thereby "most likely took Demmin/Dymin and Gützkow/Kockow" and, with reference to the contemporary campaign of Lothair of Süpplingenburg, "German and Polish expansion met at Müritz lake and the upper Peene river, and probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund/Strzalow."[fn for Maleczynski with original quote in Polish] Are you in? Skäpperöd (talk) 07:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC) The part I don't get about this whole process is that you adopt this inquisitorial tone ("Do you agree..." "Do you uphold..." - this isn't Socrates schooling his pupils) in an attempt to control the conversation, but you still haven't provided a single source of your own to contradict the info from Michalek, Malczynski and other sources I've provided. Rather you're focusing on semantic details and playing word games (first with Strzalow vs. Stralsund, now with "targeted" etc).Volunteer Marek 13:24, 11 April 2013 (UTC) Do you agree on just quoting Maleczynski as proposed above? That way there is no dispute about "semantic details" and nobody expects the Spanish inquisition [80]. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC) Here are some tips on Haggling [81]--Woogie10w (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC) It feels more like this [82].Volunteer Marek 17:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC) Anyone opposed to quoting Maleczynski, as proposed above? Skäpperöd (talk) 17:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC) Skapperod I entered this discussion in an effort to help you. I am skeptical when dealing with Polish sources like Maleczynski. I was hoping that you would accept the NCMH as a source in order to save face. BTW my favorite cap is [83]--Woogie10w (talk) 18:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC) If NCHM does not say that Boleslaw went to Demmin/Stralsund in 1121, we can not use it as a reference for a statement claiming so, it's as simple as that. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Sorry for being a bit wary but my concern is that you will later turn around and try to use the phrasing of the sentence to try and get rid of or tag up the map again (because the sentence doesn't say "targeted" or something).Volunteer Marek 02:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC) You did not present a single secondary source besides Maleczynski that discusses Boleslaw's alleged campaign in the Demmin/Stralsund areas in 1121. Not one. There is noone to quote except for Maleczynski for Boleslaw/Demmin/Stralsund in 1121. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC) So let's see... I did not present a source besides the source I presented, but then I did not present a source. Not one. Huh? What? You see why I'm wary of your proposal? Volunteer Marek 15:10, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Cabe 6403? Skäpperöd (talk) 04:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC) "Of course Boleslaw (and Wartislaw, and the emperor) were personally leading their campaigns" - I am aware of this, my point was he was commanding others. Boleslaw can't be in all locations at once so he needs to delegate (such as ordering Wartislaw to take Demmin. The purpose of DRN isn't to rule on which side is right or wrong but to help resolve a dispute. You keep asking me to make rulings and judgements of various statements yet you have made no indication that you are willing to actually work to resolve the dispute. You seem to have adopted a position that you are correct and this DRN posting is supposed to affirm that view. This is not the case. You need to be willing to compromise to reach a resolution. Unfortunately, if you are not willing to compromise then we're just spinning our wheels here and we could go on for weeks. Skapperod, you are gaming the system by using the letter of policy to violate the broader principles of the policy. Please indicate some sort of willingness to comprimise on this as it't not a simple black and white dispute as you make claim to, otherwise I may have to think of closing this as unresolved and recommending it be kicked up to MedCom Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 08:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Cabe6403, I kindly request that you clarify, with diffs, where I have been "gaming the system by using the letter of policy to violate the broader principles of the policy," or that you strike that attack. All I have been asking for is that the information introduced to the articles can be referenced to secondary sources. It's not my fault if no such sources can be provided, or if the sources provided turn out to not reference what they are claimed to reference. I did provide a compromise, i.e. quoting Maleczynski as proposed above. The only time you have actually publicly assessed a source here [84], that assessment was full of errors. You eg. mistook Stralsund as a part of Pomerelia (easternmost Pomerania), and based on that error you claimed that Boleslaw was in the Stralsund area (westernmost Pomerania) in 1119. And so on. You chose to ignore my response [85], and that is sad. The proper process would be if we worked that out. I am willing to do so, are you? If you do not want to assess the sources alone, probably another DRN volunteer can help. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC) If you want the sources assessed we have the reliable sources noticeboard. Perhaps we have different views on how DRN should run. My view is that, since it's voluntary and my POV has no more weight that any other editor, the DRN volunteer should attempt to mediate the discussion by directing discussion not by making declarations and rulings. When I 'assessed' a source I simply gave my interpretation on it, as someone who has never encountered the area or the historical individuals involved I am not particularly well suited to evaluate a historical source for accuracy, especially when statements in the prose pull together information from multiple sources to make one statement. Regarding 'ignoring' your response, not true, your response picked appart my interpritation, which, as I have just explain why, I was hesitant to give as the last thing this dispute needs is another viewpoint, particularly if it's based on a limited understanding of the subject. Now, I'm getting a little frustrated and I feel I am losing my objectivity in this matter so I will withdraw from this DRN and request another volunteer take over Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 10:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

85 (number)

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Marqaz on 23:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute 85 (number) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Marqaz (talk · contribs) Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Very minor but annoying dispute over a edit I made, adding a qualification (that is was the lowest number with this property where all squares were all non-trivial i.e. >1) to an observation (85 is the sum of two squares in two different ways). This was then undone by the other party initially without discussion. I reinstated as I considered it valid. We have since reverted back and forth, with some discussion on the talk page, with no progress. Various policies have been cited by both parties but with no consensus. Have you tried to resolve this previously? none - have consider a topic forum or a third opinion listing, but for me (as a relatively new user) the issue is as much about the reasonableness of my actions, the appropriate policies to apply and the best way to resolve this sort of issue. How do you think we can help? A third party view on the merit of the disputed edit would be useful, but as indicated above views on the appropriate policies and conduct and in particular clear guidance on the appropriateness of deleting signed good faith edits without strong justification are probably more important to me. Opening comments by Arthur Rubin Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I was trying to apply the guidelines from WP:NUMBER, but I can't find the consensus I remember that mathematical properties of integers should only be included if they would be sufficient to make the number notable, per WP:NUMBER. I suggested that the other person contact WT:MATH or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers to look for comment from people familar with the number articles. Speaking as a mathematician, I particularly object to the term "non-trivial" for "greater than 1", and writing "greater than 1" makes it clear that the concept is not notable. Perhaps the fact (if accurate) that it's the 2nd number which is a member of a Pythagorean triplet in 4 ways could be included, but that still seems uninteresting. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:58, 7 April 2013 (UTC) 85 (number) discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. I have examined the facts in this case and made the following recommendation: Hello, I am Solarra and I am here as part of the dispute resolution process. I have overlooked all of the edits and done considerable research on the subject including perusing results here and here and having looked at the facts, I have to side with Marqaz in this case. 85 is in fact the result of 9^2 + 2^2 = 7^2 + 6^2 and several universities have it displayed prominently in the "Special properties of numbers" sections of various math themed sites including the fact that this is the lowest integer to have this property. This page is dedicated to valid mathematical facts that are not commonly known, if you look here the number 4 lists it is the smallest squared prime for example. The fact should be included in the page :-) ♥ Solarra ♥ ♪ Talk ♪ ߷ ♀ Contribs ♀ 06:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC) There hasn't been much discussion as of here lately - has this dispute been resolved? Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 02:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Unless someone wants to say something else here within the next 24 hours, this dispute will be closed as "resolved." Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Istanbul#RFC2: Istanbul Infobox_Image

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Cavann on 21:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Istanbul#RFC2: Istanbul Infobox Image (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Cavann (talk · contribs) Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I created a RFC for the infobox image [86], but the RFC was removed. [87] There was a RFC 5 months ago, but I did not participate in it. It's hard to reach a consensus when the debate is shut down. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk:Istanbul#New_Collage_and_Cityscape_picture How do you think we can help? Clarify if a 5 month RFC, which I did not participate, stops all further discussion like User:Tariqabjotu suggests. Opening comments by Tariqabjotu Ugh. I don't have time for this rigmarole. There was an RfC opened in mid-November, closed in late-December. There was an earlier discussion about this point in August and September. It's been discussed. And recently. On the other hand, the complainant started a new thread on this issue just this past week (Talk:Istanbul#New_Collage_and_Cityscape_picture), and without allowing for it to run its course went directly to an RfC. And in the meantime had opened another RfC about an issue in which he refused to concede he was in the wrong. That's not how the RfC process is supposed to work. RfCs are supposed be launched after lengthy discussion fails to lead to a conclusion. Despite the first issue being clearly resolved, editors on the page allowed his first RfC to proceed. But this new RfC is a continuation of his abuse of the process. The complainant should be advised to allow the current thread to run its course before considering further action. For the record, these are not opening comments by me. These are my only comments on this issue, and I will not be commenting further on this matter. -- tariqabjotu 21:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC) Talk:Istanbul#RFC2: Istanbul Infobox_Image discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Law of value

– New discussion.

Filed by NinjaRobotPirate on 03:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Law of value (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• NinjaRobotPirate (talk · contribs)
• Jurriaan (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User:Jurriaan is the main author of Law of value, and he believes that primary sources should suffice. I made a series of edits, tagging many statements with original research and requesting citations. I further moved many of the quotes from primary sources outside of the main reflist, into a new section, called Notes, which also held many helpful notes moved out of References. An edit war has erupted, and Jurriaan seems to believe that my edits are pedantic, bureaucratic, and without proper authority. I believe that his version of the page violates WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:Primary, among other policies.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have each argued extensively throughout the talk page for the past week, culminating in an edit war. I have attempted to contact an uninvolved admin, but that admin has been unresponsive, possibly due to overwork.

How do you think we can help?

My interpretation of several policies leads me to believe that my edits have brought the article (Law of value) into better compliance with several Wikipedia policies, and I seek to convince Jurriaan that these policies trump his desire to keep the article clear of what he believes are unnecessary tags (such as "citation needed").

Opening comments by Jurriaan

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Law of value discussion

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Talk:Byzantine Empire

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Sowlos on 19:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Byzantine Empire (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Sowlos (talk · contribs) Athenean (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Several editors (including myself) worked on improving the lead of Byzantine Empire. Some editors had some lingering concerns over potential inadequacies and omissions in the revision. This is — of course — perfectly alright. However, one editor became increasingly combative when I voiced disagreement to his suggestions. Within 5 hours of making his suggestion he declared I was the only objector and modified the content that had received consensus support, prior. His changes have since been reverted, but he has chosen accusations and name calling over attempting to resolve the dispute. I have worded my side in many different ways, but he continues to accuse me of saying nothing substantial and demand that I lay out my objections to his position. This has become extremely frustrating and it's becoming increasingly hard to keep civil. I feel the discussion desperately needs neutral parties to join the discussion. Unfortunately, this and related articles can stir so much passion in some editors that most simply run for the hills rather than deal with this sort of headache. I'm worried he is simply making a fuss on the talk page until he beats his opposition into submission by ignoring what they say and inflaming the situation until he gets what he wants. I really hope someone here can help. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried engaging in discussion on the talk page, but it quickly devolved into circular nonsense smothering any meaningful discussion. How do you think we can help? I think neutral outsiders need to intervene in this interaction. I don't know what that would entail, but I am open to suggestions. I strongly believe in achieving consensus and following it (even if it settles in a direction I disagree with), but there needs to be more than two people yelling at each other for that to happen. Opening comments by Athenean It's unfortunate that Sowlos' opening comment contains little more than personal attacks and bad faith assumptions ("I'm worried..."), but that is indicative of the type of individual I am dealing with. Regarding the dispute, Sowlos has lately been agitating to re-write the lead of Byzantine Empire in it's entirety, even though the article is already an FA. His re-write can be seen here [88]. In my opinion, it goes too far in condensing the material. Specifically, I object to the describing the Macedonian renaissance as "something of a renaissance", it's lumping together with the Battle of Manzikert in one sentence (end of 3rd paragraph), the removal of the Komnenian restoration and it's replacement by a euphemism, and the removal of the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 from the end of the lead. My suggestions can also be seen in detail here [89] and here [90]. I should mention that there never was any discussion or consensus for Sowlos' changes to the 3rd and 4th paragraphs, thus my suggestions are in fact nothing more than the previous consensus version, with which the article had reached FA status. I have tried to engage Sowlos on the talkpage, repeatedly asking him what he objects to specifically [91], and all I get are patronizing lectures about what the lead is supposed to contain and copy-pasting of parts of WP:LEAD, obfuscation, and evasion [92] (his "itemized objections" are nowhere to be found: He has never addressed my proposal to include the Komnenian restoration and the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, he just keeps pretending not to notice it). So as far as trying to "making a fuss on the talk page until he beats his opposition into submission..." and all that, I think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Athenean (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC) Talk:Byzantine Empire discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copernican principle

– New discussion.

Filed by Uruiamme on 07:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Copernican principle (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Wyattmj (talk · contribs)
• 4twenty42o (talk · contribs)
• 78.50.199.189 (talk · contribs)
• 91.183.53.247 (talk · contribs)
• Materialscientist (talk · contribs)
• Lithopsian (talk · contribs)
• 74.100.71.90 (talk · contribs)
• Kheider (talk · contribs)
• Diamondandrs (talk · contribs)
• Drbogdan (talk · contribs)
• Aunva6 (talk · contribs)
• 7%266%3Dthirteen (talk · contribs)
• 74.100.51.204 (talk · contribs)
• 78.50.195.154 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The question is whether the "CMB Anisotropies" (Cosmic microwave background anisotropies) prove or disprove the Copernican principle, and obviously, whether this proof should appear as a conclusion or theory or argument in the article.

I will answer shortly, but the question is not of "proving or disproving", rather, whether certain structural features of the CMB (alignment of quadrupole and octupole , and correlation to the ecliptic and equinoxes, especially) challenge the Copernican Principle. This is clearly the case. I did not feel an issue answering here, as the filer stated they had no intention of being involved in the dispute. Wyattmj (talk) 12:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

This has been edit warred and talk paged and see-my-link-to-a-Wikipedia-article and see-my-abstract-link-ed to death with the result on the article being that it stinks.

Let's stick to regurgitating the sources on this subject, if it has even come up in the press or in journals.

How do you think we can help?

I am personally uninvolved, so I have not included my name above. I have been watching dispute for a month in my watchlist. I doubt I would have time to resolve it without help from other uninvolved helpers. The subject of the dispute is quite difficult to grasp, so some highly technical user would be great.

Opening comments by Wyattmj

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Opening comments by 4twenty42o

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Opening comments by 78.50.199.189

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Opening comments by 91.183.53.247

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Opening comments by Materialscientist

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Opening comments by Lithopsian

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Opening comments by 74.100.71.90

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Opening comments by Kheider

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Opening comments by Diamondandrs

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Opening comments by Drbogdan

As before, my involvement in the Copernican principle article was limited to the questionable quality of newly posted text and references - and urged a discussion on the article's talk page - to reach WP:CONSENSUS among interested (& knowledgeable) editors per WP:BRD - as follows => "rv edit - text doesn't seem well settled - please discuss on talk page - and reach "WP:CONSENSUS" first - per "WP:BRD" & related." - afaik this seemed appropriate at the time for the text/refs involved - please let me know if otherwise of course - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Aunva6

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my involvement was limited to reverting an edit that had previously been removed. after looking at the source, I found that it contained no mention of the Copernican Principle. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 14:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 7&6=thirteen

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Opening comments by 74.100.51.204

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Opening comments by 78.50.195.154

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Copernican principle discussion

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