Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Extended confirmed protection policy

Background

Extended confirmed protection (also known as "30/500 protection") is a new level of article protection that only allows edits from accounts at least 30 days old and with 500 edits. The automatically assigned "extended confirmed" user right was created for this purpose. The protection level was created following this community discussion with the primary intention of enforcing various arbitration remedies that prohibit editors under the "30 days/500 edits" threshold to edit certain topic areas. The Arbitration Committee recently passed a motion that established expectations for use of the protection within the scope of arbitration enforcement.

The protection policy currently states that extended confirmed protection may only be applied in topic areas authorized by the Arbitration Committee or as a result of community consensus (per this discussion). However, it also states that Criteria for community use have not been established. This request for comment seeks to establish such a community process for the use of extended confirmed protection. A discussion at the village pump ideas lab produced the following options.

Options

• Option A: Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee (current policy).
• Option B: Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee or for persistent sockpuppetry where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective (similar to what ArbCom stipulated for arbitration enforcement and discretionary sanctions 30/500 applications). Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee.
• Option C: Allow use to combat any form of disruption (such as vandalism, edit wars, etc.) on any topic, given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective. Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee.

For clarity, please support only one option. Supporters of option C may inherently support option B unless stated otherwise. Katie^talk 00:31, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Option A

1. Support As the lesser of evils. I am against this type of protection in general, and prefer the old "nothing-semi-full" system. Debresser (talk) 08:11, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

   The old system is "nothing-full", semi-protection is a more recent invention. HighInBC ^{Need help? {{ping|HighInBC}}} 13:42, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

2. Support. This option will obviously fail, but I will cast my vote for what I believe is correct. Admins don't need more practically unrestrained discretionary power, especially considering that this is a rather powerful level of protection. If we are to use this type of protection for purposes other than Arbitration Enforcement, the criteria for doing so should be specific, not a sweeping mandate for discretionary use "whenever necessary." Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 15:16, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
3. Support. As Biblio said above, Option C gives far too much discretion to admins. This RfC does little to prevent 30/500 protection from being used as frequently as semi-protection, and I am concerned that extended confirm protection will drive away the good-faith new contributors that Wikipedia needs for its long-term survival. See the Wikipedia:Request_for_comment/Extended_confirmed_protection_policy#Discussion section for my full reasoning. I can live with Option B, but I strongly oppose Option C. Altamel (talk) 19:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
4. Strong support: I would have been much more hesitant to support ECP earlier this year if I had known it would lead down this slippery slope. Content disputes should not be solved by applying ECP instead of full protection—even if the original war was between two (or more) non-500/30 users, a 500/30 account could come along and (either maliciously or making an honest mistake) carrying on the reverting. We have enough protection levels for combating vandalism: pending changes is something I am a big supporter of and while few people !voting here might agree with me because they can't remember ever being at that point, I think even semi-protection will stop quite a few people from editing (lots of people create an account specifically because they want to edit one page, and if they find out that page is semi-protected, they might just give up and we have lost a potential new editor; the 30/500 criteria will seem ridiculously unattainable to a newbie). Since option A seems like it will fail (although anything is possible), I should note that I would strongly prefer option B to option C—I don't like the idea of more esoteric protection rules for rare cases (persistent autoconfirmed socks); although I can see its benefits, I think the disadvantage of instruction creep outweighs them. I agree strongly with the sentiments of Altamel and Biblioworm, both of whom phrased their concerns much more eloquently than I have. — Bilorv_(talk)^(c)(e) 20:32, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
5. Support. I actually support wider use than just approval by the arbitration committee, but both options B and C are too lenient as they allow it to be imposed at the discretion of a single user so this is the only option I can support. In my view the restriction should be applied only with the prior consensus of multiple independent administrators that other methods have failed or are not appropriate. Thryduulf (talk) 20:55, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
6. Support At this point we are moving from "encyclopedia anyone can edit" to "encyclopedia anyone can edit unless it's a contentious topic." I don't think it's a useful sanction at all, it's just a tool for owning the article by the regulars of Wikipedia who are not necessarily the experts of the subject and might be the bigger problem. Funny thing is, WP fought creationists, Scientologists and climate change deniers and it was a stupid Hashtag that needed such draconian protection. And I remember why. It happened because an experienced editor could not stop biting the newcomers, who, short time later, topic banned from the subject. This sanction is a massive failure to assume good faith and should not be used anywhere. But if it is, it should at least be authorized by arbcom. Darwinian Ape ^talk 21:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
7. Weak support here for now – My thoughts tend to align with Altamel's comment in the general discussion section below. I'm mostly concerned that if this becomes widely used, it will have a negative impact on our newer editors. With regards to an intermediary between semi-protection and full protection, we already have one that isn't so restrictive as 30/500: pending changes level 2. But PC2 has been rejected every time it's come up. I'm still thinking, but I'm very hesitant to extend 30/500 beyond our most strife-torn articles. Mz7 (talk) 21:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
8. Support Recognizing that 500/30 is needed at times, this should only be determined after evaluating the case to know that semi really is not working and other forms of admin actions can't handle it. --MASEM (t) 01:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
9. Support option A in lieu of abolishing it altogether. Marginalized editors are less likely to create accounts that can be used to harass them. Silencing them with this protection policy is another form of victimization. This includes sexual harassment where female editors don't wish to edit except as anonymous IPs. Reject expanding this as it would be detrimental to efforts to attract diverse contributions and close the gender gap. --DHeyward (talk) 05:30, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
10. Support. Option C is too restrictive. While Option B is better than Option C, there should also be an expiry date or a mechanism in place to allow the removal of 30/500. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:03, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

    @OhanaUnited: By your wording, it sounds like you probably meant a different option in your !vote. Option A, the current policy, is probably the most restrictive, not explicitly allowing sysops to apply ECP for sockpuppetry / disputes, whereas the other options do. Also, does the software really prevent application of extended confirmed for a duration other than indefinite? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 15:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

    @Andy M. Wang: No, the most restrictive (from a new editor's point of view) is option C. Option A is where ArbCom is going to use ECP. Option C is where ArbCom and any perceived disruption will use ECP. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:22, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

    Ahh I see... looked at this from the wrong perspective. (we serve editors after all) Thanks for letting me know — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:27, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

11. Support. 500/30 is an extreme form of protection which disallows a very wide swathe of the editors. There should be first a serious examination of the results of the 500/30 protection on the areas it has been used, before expanding it any further. Absent this review, I am unwilling to extend it any further than it already has. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:23, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
12. Support I am a bit ambivalent about the use of this on articles - I don't like it, but it is another tool to consider. What I don't like is the use of this rule on talk pages. There it disenfranchises new editors from even involving themselves in the discussion. Semi-protection serves to keep most socks at bay, but this isn;t aimed at socks, or disruptive IPs, but 30/500 states that certain editors aren't considered to be experienced enough to even discuss the topic. Given that Option A already sees it applied to talk pages, I'm concerned that any further opening up of its use will see far wider and even less careful application. - Bilby (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
13. Support I support this option. The EC protection should be used only for ARBCOM approved articles. If another article is heavily vandalized, then fully protect and open an ARBCOM case to switch to EC protection. Perhaps ARBCOM should develop a fast-track system for EC protection? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Option B

1. Support: Option C is vague, creates more caste and encourages editors to put "this user has extendedconfirmed permission" userboxes (more hat collecting!), and gives too much power to silence newcomers. Semi-protection works just fine for most cases. I support use only to stop paid advocates and other sockpuppets. — Esquivalience (talk) 03:50, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
2. Support – I originally supported the creation of 30/500 protection on the assumption that its use wouldn't be expanded beyond Arbcom-initiated areas, and I'm a little disappointed that this is being rushed towards the door of being used as "just another semi-protection level" already... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
3. I'd prefer to see how we go with this for a while before we give all 858 admins carte blanche. Jenks24 (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
4. Support - 30/500 protection would definitely be more effective against persistent sockpuppetry than semi-protection (i.e. "4/10 protection") in that it would take a full month for a sock to gain auto-extended confirmed status. However, I would add the caveat that community-imposed 30/500 should last no longer than 60–90 days, after which ArbCom would have to authorize indefinite 30/500 protection. Option C goes too far, and Option A doesn't give admins the flexibility to impose 30/500 in an emergency. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 09:05, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
5. Oppose - "for persistent sockpuppetry where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective" I've seen several WP:RFP that make the claim it's sockpuppetry. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the article history shows IP edits and/or redlink accounts. WP:SI requires diffs and proof before they take on a case. This well-meant option requires no proof, and relies on the judgement of the requester and admin. Too much room for error. — Maile (talk) 14:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
6. Support. Addressing Maile66, any admin can already block socks at WP:SPI based on the proof presented; the process there is already "requester and admin" for patrolling admins. As always, the discretion and accountability lies with the administrator. If admins go around placing protection without making a determination of sockpuppetry (or if they make such determinations with no regard to proof), then that's an issue of tool misuse. I don't believe I've ever been convinced that a rule shouldn't be made because people could break it. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:57, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
7. Support I am concerned, except in a few situations, about the message that this sends that newcomers are automatically less trustworthy than established editors. I think the best way to prevent new but autoconfirmed editors from with editing things they do not yet have the competence for is mentoring and advice rather than automated means. I am very uncomfortable about EP being used in edit warring situations because it effectively gives older accounts a great upper hand over newer users. I am not as concerned about full protection since admins go through a vetting process and risk desysop if they abuse their power over protected article. I would be open to creating a user right that would be granted upon request to edit through an intermediate protection level, but since extended confirm is about account age and not trust, it doesn't satisfy me in that regard. The only use of ECP I feel confortable with is to prevent socks, and even then I worry about overuse leading to a sort of arms race with sockmasters. Happy Squirrel (talk) 19:11, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
8. Support - I can understand seing Option C as too vague and/or too far away from the wiki idea. If semi-protection doesn´t work get the 30/500 authorized by the ARBCOM and everything is fine. And the addition of usage against sockpuppetry makes absolute sense to me. What I would think about is making the 30/500 temporary at first, like automatically downgrading it to semi-protection after a month or something like that; with the option to easily renew and lengthen it if necessary. ...GELongstreet (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
9. Support - without prejudice to migrating to C down the road after this is tried out. Recent use of 30/500 has been, in all cases so far, a "we're at the end of our wits trying to solve this, so its either this or full-protection". So Option B would maintain that Last-Resort mentality without having to tie up ArbCom. I think we give this a try and see how it works first. Using this for "regular disruption" treads the line on infringing on "anyone can edit" due to a few bad apples. It may be that it is inevitable, but I'd rather go incrementally down that road. Crow^Caw 16:42, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Option C

1. Support One more option in the toolkit. Sockmasters, vandals, trolls etc have been getting more savvy lately, so as they get trickier so must the toolkit evolved to deal with them. Blackmane (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
2. Support as an obvious intermediate to semi and full, which, being less restrictive, should not be subject to more use-restriction than full. TimothyJosephWood 01:43, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
3. Support This is a great intermediate option between semi and full and would cause minimal to no disruption since we already have an edit request system in place for protected pages --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 01:45, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
4. Support But we should only use this sparingly as a short-term measure for really heated issues that it would be difficult for administrators to otherwise keep on top of. We shouldn't create barriers to editing for new and occasional contributors, lest it become another gentle step away from the original vision of a free and open encyclopedia. That said, it's a tool that would be eminently useful to have. KaisaL (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
5. Support and agree with KaisaL. We should only be using this as little as possible and only as a short-term measure unless further authorized. I especially like the notification part of this option so that any uses of this level can have community input. If further authorization is required it can be discussed there. --Majora (talk) 03:01, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
6. Support another useful tool for admins that will be useful in vandalism fighting. - Yellow Dingo (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
7. Support. From what I can observe, 500/30 has worked well in curbing disruption to Gamergate and caste-related articles. Semi-protection is no longer effective against persistent sockmasters, vandals and trolls. MER-C 05:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
8. Support Option B is to specific, because this could be used fine to prevent issues that don't necessarily have anything to do with socking. I do of course agree that this should only be utilized in major issues where semi-protection has proven ineffective. Omni Flames (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
9. Tentative support as preferable to either rampant, calculated vandalism or full protection. I join KaisaL's comments that this should only be used when it's truly necessary as, unlike semi-protection, this excludes a significant part of our user base. I think a new pending changes level that held changes by users who weren't extended-confirmed (instead of merely confirmed) may be a better option. Rebbing 07:07, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
10. Support I'm in favour of admins having more fine-grained tools to deal with disruption like this. I would much prefer protecting an article with this protection level to fully protecting it. However, as others have said above, I think this should only be used when semi-protection has been tried and has failed. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 07:25, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
11. Support Net positive - useful for admins to combat disruption. -FASTILY 07:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
12. Support as a useful and relatively benign tool that should be available when full protection would otherwise deprive established content editors from participating. Jclemens (talk) 07:48, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
13. Support Good alternative to full protection. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 08:04, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
14. Support: Perfect where ever recurring semi P is insufficient, full P too restrictive, or pending P inappropriate. - DVdm (talk) 09:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
15. Support. Makes sense. Nsk92 (talk) 09:23, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
16. Support Combat those vandalism is better. SA 13 Bro (talk) 09:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
17. Support From occasional visits at WP:RfPP, administrators already do a very good job on applying the most appropriate, minimally necessary, level of protection with their current toolset. 500/30 will just be another tool to allow a more efficient protection in some cases - and I trust that it will only be used where really necessary. GermanJoe (talk) 11:04, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
18. Support Though I think posting at AN every time it is used is excessive. I think it can just be posted there when someone takes issue with it. HighInBC ^{Need help? {{ping|HighInBC}}} 13:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
19. Support, though I still hope to see it used sparingly, and only where semiprotection has clearly proven ineffective. We should always be using the least drastic measure; most garden variety vandalism sprees and the like can be handled with semi. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:43, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
20. Support Much too easy to create new accounts. "Anyone can edit" should really be "Anyone can edit, responsibly".--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 14:32, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
21. Support Like others, if this option is chosen I think some guidance is warranted. While I agree with the general sentiment that this should be viewed as a tool when semi-protection is not sufficient and full protection might be overdoing it, I prefer not to be so explicit as to require evidence of a failed semi-protection. As an example, which I offer cautiously as I have not been involved in Gamergate issues, I see that it has proved useful in that brouhaha. I can envision that a new article about a player in that controversy might be created and then might erupt into problems. I can imagine that this level of protection might be warranted rather than insisting that semi be added and failed before jumping to this level, but I am totally on board with the concept that jumping immediately to this level of protection would be extremely rare.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
22. Support As others have said: another tool in the toolkit. If semi-protection doesn't work, this is definitely better than giving full protection to articles as it would allow edit requests to still be fulfilled. ECP isn't used often enough to warrant its existence otherwise, I think. KieranTribe 14:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
23. Support As this is a preferable option over full protection in many cases. The admins that work at WP:RFPP are competent enough to use this new option with care. —Ruud 14:48, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
24. Weak support - It's the best of the options being offered, but I'm unsure of how effective it will be over the long haul. But it's better than nothing. — Maile (talk) 14:55, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
25. Support. The current option between either semi-protection or full protection is too broad; there are some cases where semi-protection doesn't help and full protection halts all meaningful contributions. 30/500 is a good alternative, and should be used far more often. Colonel Wilhelm Klink (^Complaints|_Mistakes) 16:20, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
26. Support. Conceptually, I hate the idea of restricting editing from new users on certain pages. Practically, I acknowledge the necessity. That being said, this is a less restrictive option than full protection, and it adequately addresses the weaknesses of semi-protection. There are cases of vandalism, BLP violations, highly visible pages, etc. where this will be useful temporary measure of protection. I agree with the comments above that this should be used sparingly and only after lesser forms of protection have failed. ERK ^talk 16:29, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
27. Support. This is a good protection scheme when full protection is unwarranted. --Coemgenus (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
28. Support, and, given the persistence of some vandals, I'd raise the edits to 1,000 (and erect a wall and have Britannica pay for it). Randy Kryn 18:02, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
29. Support per Randy Kryn. I support the fullest possible implementation to protect the hard work our content contributors have made. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
30. Support. I regularly (as "on an almost daily basis") see cases where semi-protection isn't enough, and it's far from only cases of vandalism, but also POV-pushing, persistent addition of unsourced material and BLP-violations. Thomas.W ^talk 18:22, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
31. Strongly Support! Just what our WP:MVPs need when semi won't do. I've been longing for this option for years and now is the time! <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 18:27, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
32. Support I trust our admins will use this form of protection wisely, just as we do with other levels. It is nonsensical and contrary to our mission to resort to full protection when the lesser evil 30/500 would adequately control the disruption, and allow more contributors to edit. You might have found me doing it even though the policy says not to, per WP:IAR. For the purposes of sockpuppetry, 30/500 should work wonders. We can't keep making expensive edit filters for each and every issue of sockpuppetry, and no one is having fun combing through revision histories fact checking every change. Same rules apply with 30/500 – don't protect preemptively and use it only when necessary. The flexibility of having a new form of protection at our disposal is only going to make things easier, save us a lot of headaches, and still allow articles to develop — MusikAnimal ^talk 18:31, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
33. Support So much time is wasted combatting persistent vandalism, POV-pushing, etc.; time that could be spent on creating new content. More flexible tools can only help. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
34. Support - This will prevent vandalism from socks on pages, and works much better than having Semi-Protection. Class455fan1 (talk) 20:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
35. Support because semiprotection is too easy to game. --Rschen7754 22:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
36. Support. In fact, I think this protection level would be a good default for user pages. Funcrunch (talk) 22:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
37. Weak Support. I think that this option is the best of the three, but it should be used as little as possible: after every possible semiprotect or pending changes method has been exhausted, and even then, under strict scrutiny from both admins and non-admins—ideally, almost a one to one ratio. Dschslava ^Δx parlez moi 22:45, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
38. Support - This is a more precise tool than full protection, it should be permitted for use in more situations rather than fewer. James086^Talk 23:22, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
39. Support - Good alternate to full protection. SlightSmile 00:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
40. Support as long as this is used as a last resort (i.e. after multiple blocks have been ineffective), and not as a default measure for persistent disruption. I do believe however that in very specific cases, not necessarily established by Arbcom or consensus, that this should be used to protect pages/topics on a permanent or semi-permanent (~6 months–1 year) basis, given multiple periods of short-term 30/500 protection and subsequent semi-protection has proven ineffective. –Gladamas^talk 00:50, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
41. Support, except that I see no need to ask for review on AN. Better to handle it as a protection option like any other. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
42. Support With Wikipedia's size and fewer active editors, tougher protection is needed against inappropriate behavior like vandalism and edit-warring. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:29, 5 July 2016 (UTC).
43. Support We need to have tougher rules on editor's use of vandalism, disruptive editing, edit war and sock puppetry. This one is the best option, but I think it should be only used when it's absolutely necessary. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:41, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
44. Support – the more protection options, the better, and we need something in between semi- and full protection. I can also see this being useful for very high-traffic articles (e.g. after the death of Michael Jackson). Graham87 07:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
45. Support – This would have spared myriads of editor hours and heaps of reader frustration had it been applied to the articles about Republican and Democratic primaries over the last few months. The Republican one was using the pending changes mechanism and the Democratic one was semi-protected for several periods; both articles were susceptible to 1RR and discretionary sanctions. None of these approaches were very effective in controlling the outpour of craziness, leaving a volunteer army of level-headed editors to sort the mess repeatedly. With a 30/500 protection, knee-jerk reactions from drive-by editors would have been channelled to the appropriate talk page debates or edit requests. — JFG ^talk 08:03, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
46. Support - given that the current main alternative when semiprotection doesn't seem enough is full protection, it seems silly to have a greater threshold for the use of ECP than FP, which seems to be the gist of the other two options. WaggersTALK 12:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
47. Support This will be a vital tool in trying to help with vandalism and socks. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
48. Support essentially per Mr. Stradivarius above. Yes, this is introducing additional complexity into the protection options; but to strike a healthy balance between preventing disruption and encouraging constructive contributions, wider use of such protection would be helpful. Of course, it should only be used if semi-protection is not going to help. Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
49. Support as long as it is applied carefully. shoy (reactions) 13:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
50. Support provided at least five admins all agree at AN, and there is also an actively patrolled {{edit request 30-500}} available. (No real difference between B and C.) (Yes some process overhead and constraints to reduce the non arbcom use of the process. Wikipedia is and must remain essentially a responsible editors free for all. Aoziwe (talk) 15:22, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
51. Support - we trust admins to full-protect, delete and block, so we can trust them to do this and not use it as a "kick out everyone I don't like in a content dispute" magic button. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
52. Support This is simply another tool to use, a level between semi-protected and full protection. Certainly it's better to use this than full protection on an article. However, I believe that using this should be avoided on talk pages, even when there are concerns about persistent sock-puppetry. Mamyles (talk) 16:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
53. Support Per MusikAnimal. Not only has this proven effective in contentious areas, it is also a more precise option than full protection. Mizike (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
54. Support This adds another tool to the admin's chest, which could be useful in stopping the sorts of problems that currently slip through the cracks. However, it's only useful if admins can actually use it. The more rules governing its use, the more work it will take for an admin to implement it, and thus admins will be more reluctant to use it. This, in addition to the restrictions those rules represent on their face could severely strip this option of usefulness if regulated too tightly. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
55. Support - Pile-on, per above. Mlpearc (open channel) 17:56, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Option C question. Need clarification on "Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee." What does this mean? Will this be a general notification permanently posted at AN, or is this to be posted every time it's used? Wording is open to interpretation. — Maile (talk) 12:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

As a disclaimer, I was the one that proposed the addition of the notification requirement during the village pump idea lab discussion. The idea, in my mind, was to require admins to post the levying of ECP on any given article for community review. The exception above means that if the article has been granted ECP through an Arbcom case, Gamergate for example, then the ECP is an Arbcom action, with the authority of the whole committee, and not an unilateral action by an admin. An Arbcom action such as this already requires a majority vote by the committee before being performed. As for the subsection notification, the requirement is like a block review. It's posted as a new thread, the community reviews, the discussion is closed once consensus supports or opposes the ECP action then it is archived as normal. Blackmane (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it should only be posted if someone has a problem with it to avoid cluttering the noticeboard. If nobody takes issue with the protection why take up space? It should be like a block review, we don't post every block for review just the ones someone takes issue with. HighInBC ^{Need help? {{ping|HighInBC}}} 13:40, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. TimothyJosephWood 13:44, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I think require notification in every instance may be overkill. We obviously need to monitor make sure it doesn't get overused but there are better mechanisms than counting AN posts.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

No objection from me. My thinking was in the early days of it, there probably won't be that many requests for ECP so the first bunch of them may (or may not?) be worth putting past the community, but after that it would be as you and HighinBC indicate, that only those objected to would be reviewed on the noticeboards. WP:Requests for ECP board anyone...? Blackmane (talk) 14:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I strongly object. If this measure is to be used "sparingly", as many supporting option C have indicated, the notifications will be occasional and will not clutter the noticeboard. If ECP is used so frequently that the number of notifications is cluttering the noticeboard, we need to reexamine the use of ECP, not get rid of the notifications. The point of the AN notifications is to actively prod the community to monitor the use of this protection method. Just waiting for someone to object is not a good alternative, since the users with fewer than 500 edits that would be unable to edit an ECP article are unlikely to voice a complaint at AN, or even know what that noticeboard is for. Altamel (talk) 16:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion - If this action needs posting at AN, why not just have a bot trigger a posting everytime it's used. Either on the main AN page, or a sub page. That way, everyone will get an idea of whether it looks like it's being used too liberally. If it's only a once in a while usage, then it's no problem for an uninvolved editor to click on the link and see if it warrants a second look. — Maile (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing. Special:Log and the category will give us what we need, but it'd be nice to have a clean automated report to some subpage that we can transclude wherever we want, namely AN. User:MusikBot would be happy to do this for us :) — MusikAnimal ^talk 18:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

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Will probably cast a vote soon... I hope that EC-P can effectively counter the sockpuppet accounts that are used to counter semiprotection i.e. accounts making 10 dummy edits and waiting 4 days to disrupt. (ex. see Special:Contributions/Rack3515, Special:Contributions/Rah2882, possibly (!AGF) Special:Contributions/South Morang. as far as I'm aware this is happening quite a bit) If they start to create sleeper accounts and make 500 dummy edits on their userpage or sandbox, that would be detrimental to this project. EC-P will likely make User:AnomieBOT/EPERTable more active and worthy of monitoring. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

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• I'd like to see a change to Options B or C to add "... unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee or community discussion at AN or ANI." If the community has reviewed multiple articles related to a topic area and endorsed the 30/500 protection on each of them, the community should eventually be allowed to make the determination that 30/500 is appropriate within the general topic area and future review isn't necessary unless someone disputes the protection. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY and all that. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 16:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

• We discussed that (see the talk page). We left it out because anyone is free to bring up anything at AN at any time, including ECP for a page, as evidenced by the discussion that closed earlier this week. This is strictly about administrator discretion using ECP. Katie^talk 18:23, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

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Impact on newcomers

This proposal is being voted on by the people it would affect the least: we are approaching this RfC through an enormous blind spot. Who among us has fewer than 500 edits or can remember what it was like to be a newcomer? This proposal will drive away new users, and here's why: 500 edits seems like an insurmountable barrier to the average good-faith new user or IP (whereas making 10 edits for autoconfirm is quite achievable). To seasoned editors like us, 500 edits is nothing, but keep in mind new users are unsure of how to edit and may have been bitten by unnecessary warning templates on their talk page. The more frequently a newcomer encounters ECP-locked pages, the more they will conclude that Wikipedia does not want them.

Now, I see many users have asked that ECP be used only rarely, or when semi-protection fails. But besides the AN notification, nothing in this proposal would actually discourage admins from excessively applying ECP. Although this RfC sells ECP as an alternative to full-protection, ECP could easily become as widespread as semi-protection: with full vs. semi-protection, many active non-admins will argue against full protection. This is not the case when choosing between ECP and semi-protection, since the newcomers ECP restricts are unlikely to speak out against it. Wikipedia is failing to attract as many new editors as in the past; ECP will only exacerbate the decline.

TL;DR: ECP will be used excessively and drive away good-faith newcomers. Altamel (talk) 18:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely right, It's easy to ask this kind of sanctions if you know you wont be effected.

-Hello new user, welcome to the encyclopedia anyone can edit!

-Oh, I see you want to contribute to something related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, excuse me but you first have to edit Broomstick and Garden hose articles to be eligible! Because, after all, a good editor is an editor with the highest edit count.

-Oh you are an expert on the subject you say? You have no interest in editing Broomsticks and Garden hoses? You shameless SPA, get out of here!!! Darwinian Ape ^talk 21:49, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

At least it's not Shrubbery and Path again. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Many newcomers are diving into the most contentious and bitter of dispute areas, Israel Palestine, India Pakistan, Syria, American Politics, Gamergate, etc.

There is a reason why these all have Arbcom cases. What has come out of the Gamergate is that the admin corps needs a new tool to deal with disruption. Autoconfirmed is easily gamed and protection might be too strong. There's not been an intermediate protection level that lets newbies who have picked up some experience continue while telling complete newbies "this article has seen some issues, we'd like you to test the waters in less conflict prone articles before diving in here" as opposed to Semi protection or protection which basically prevents all newbies from contributing altogether. Blackmane (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes there is a reason why these all have arbcom cases, and it's not the newcomers. Yes there might be a certain amount of disruption from newcomers especially when the topic is hot. But lets not pretend that newcomers are like children and the experienced editors are the adults trying to keep order. As I said above in the vote section, it was actually the biting from an experienced editor, who was shortly after topic banned, that led to 500/30 protection. Wikipedia was against creationists with all the resources to build an Ark, Scientologists with the power of Xenu, climate change deniers who are friends with creationists, all of which were much more powerful and well funded, those topics did not require this kind of protection but a hashtag with a lame internet drama was too much, we need new tools for admins, man the harpoons, it's Gamergate!!! I don't buy it. This protection might make the subject much more quiet, it does not make it better. Gamergate article didn't improve as far as I can see, It still reads like autism incarnate. And now people suggest using this protection as commonly as semi protection. Darwinian Ape ^talk 00:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

One thing you may have missed is that the RFC is not about the topics that Arbcom has jurisdiction over but to grant admins discretionary use of ECP in lieu of semi protection, which is very rarely applied indefinitely. The articles Arbcom have jurisdiction over has, if I remember correctly, indefinite ECP applied. What the RFC is asking is whether Admins should be allowed to apply limited duration (at least that should be thrust of it) ECP to articles that are seeing heavy disruption from new accounts, sock accounts, IP's and sleepers. If ECP is not necessary, then the fall back position is semi protection. @KrakatoaKatie:, this may be something we missed when framing the RFC at the Village Pump discussion. Blackmane (talk) 01:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Nothing in this RfC says ECP can only be applied for a limited duration. And given that there is no limitation, admins will extended confirm protect articles indefinitely. Altamel (talk) 01:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

You are correct that the RFC does not say this. That is outside the scope of the RFC when admins aren't even permitted to apply ECP in the first place. The community needs to come to a consensus that actually permits admins to do so first before framing the policy that governs the practical use of the added protection. Step 1: You are allowed to do this. Step 2: This is the scope and here are your limitations. It'd be somewhat pointless if a policy was created and then the community consensus was "sorry you're not allowed to use ECP". Now that would be a right waste of time. Blackmane (talk) 02:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

• Option C is a terrible precedent. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, and Option C purposely works against that. While there are points where semi can fail and full is not sufficient, requiring 500/30, and the current cases outlined by ArbCom seem reason (though I still object to how broadly it is used for I/P), but realistically, if semi is not working, there is something else going on that needs a better evaluation of the situation and not just slapping a closed door onto an article. The Internet is inherently not a safe space, and I've seen people suggesting 500/30 to make WP such a place, which can't happen without closing off the open-edit fundamental system. It might take more work and for editors and admins to show patience and restraint, but if we close off Wikipedia, the experiment has failed. --MASEM (t) 01:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I knew this was where we were heading since the first proposal of this protection, and warned about the slippery slope. Edit count is becoming a wiki currency, perhaps always kinda was but never so profoundly. Let me tell you another problem with this protection, people will immediately be suspicious of anyone with just above 500 edits who participate in an ECP'ed article. I mean anyone who is willing to take the time to edit 500 times and wait a month just to be able to edit a topic must have an agenda, right? I actually saw a conversation exactly like that, and it wont be the last I assure you. With this RFC going the way it is, we will be throwing the AGF out of the window and the articles with this protection will be OWNED spaces. I sometimes understand the frustration of an editor who works in a contentious area, or an admin. It's easy to lose perspective and see the IP's and New editors as a disruption, but they are what makes this project what it is now. You are breaking the Wikipedia albeit with good intentions. Darwinian Ape ^talk 02:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I would add that although vandalism commonly comes from IPs and new users, on unprotected pages it is often the IPs and new users (in other words, casual readers) who spot the vandalism and remove it. On the other hand, it will be much more difficult to vandalize a 500/30 protected page, but if the Wikipedians using anti-vandalism tools fail to spot it immediately, we can no longer depend upon casual readers to revert vandalism that has fallen through the cracks. This is a feature, and not a bug of the open-edit system. Altamel (talk) 16:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Can the multitude of people who support Option C, give a few examples of how the current none-semi-full protection system falls short on some articles? In practice, 500/30 has only been used so far as an "indefinite" (or very long duration) measure. I am concerned that this might become the new default "semi-protection" measure which is often used for an indefinite duration. This has resulted, in some cases, an indef semi-protection on an article for years after the original vandalism/sockpuppetry, simply because nobody switched it off. See the history of Imaginary number for an example. If Option C passes, then may I suggest an explicit time limit on the protection, with indef 500/30 only allowed via ArbCom directives. I see many people saying that it is "a good alternative to full-protection": but full-protection is typically only used for a short duration, till the dispute cools down. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

A good example, digging into the past, would have been the MMA (Mixed martial arts) articles that, for a time, showed up at ANI virtually every week. There was a great deal of disruption from a lot of new accounts and IP's largely due to off wiki forums, so many articles were semi'd however, there was a solid enough fan base who ensured they were autoconfirmed to keep pushing the disruption. ECP would have been an excellent choice to deploy at that point. Articles relating to politicians that are not covered by WP:ARBAP2, particularly around election time in any given country especially those given to extreme partisan politics, would be another example. Like I said in an another post, a discussion about specific aspects, such as duration, should wait until consensus has been reached as to actually permit admins to deploy ECP. Blackmane (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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The edit request process should already be working - if it is broken it does not need to wait for this RfC to fix

Proposal - Is there any possibility of creating a suitable method for non-extended-confirmed users to suggest changes to a 30/500-protected article? For semi-protected pages, users can place {{Edit semi-protected}} on the article's talk page to request edits, but many 30/500 article talk pages (such as Talk:Gamergate controversy) are also 30/500 protected. Creating Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/30/500-protection edit requests or similar might work, but there would be a lot or disruption on that page, too. –Gladamastalk 01:18, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Feel free to create a RFC for this question after this one is complete. Adding things in to a structured RFC usually just causes chaos Blackmane (talk) 01:29, 5 July 2016 (UTC) What Blackmane said. We should create a category and template similar to {{edit semi-protected}} and {{edit protected}} anyway, but that's outside the scope of this RFC. Katietalk 02:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC) What need is there to wait—why not create it now? If there is an edit request template for the higher-level full protection, what good reason would there be to not create a template for this type? We should never create a system in which any admin can unilaterally impose protection and consequently block even edit suggestions. Be bold—we certainly don't need an RfC for the creation of every little obvious thing. Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 03:29, 5 July 2016 (UTC) These things already exist and should be working - if they are not then they should be fixed. I just logged on with my alt account that is not 500/30 - trying to edit a ECP goes to the "edit request" dialog just like full protected, and uses template {{edit extended-protected}}. Additionally, if the talk page is protected such as with that gamergate page - the edit request goes to Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_edits_to_a_protected_page. Is there some part of this that is not working? — xaosflux Talk 03:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Note: talk protection should be extremely rare - it is currently only in use on 6 pages. — xaosflux Talk 03:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Additionally, these should be appearing in Category:Wikipedia extended-confirmed-protected edit requests. — xaosflux Talk 03:42, 5 July 2016 (UTC) And additionally, there is a bot generated list of these that should be present at User:AnomieBOT/EPERTable - anyone who is extended confirmed that is interested in following these requests may want to watchlist that page. — xaosflux Talk 03:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC) @Gladamas, KrakatoaKatie, and Biblioworm: I've been actively monitoring the EPERTable since around May. It's very very quiet, and typically there are ~1–2 requests per week, whereas SPERTable sees about 6–8 per day. You can actually put {{edit semi-protected}} on the talk page of an ECP page, and the template doesn't actually care – it senses the editprot level on the target and picks up on the fact that it's ECP anyway — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 04:00, 5 July 2016 (UTC) 04:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

By the way am just misunderstanding this or are some admins already using ECP for articles that weren't sanctioned by arbcom. See the list of EC protected articles (example article) Darwinian Ape ^talk 04:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

There have been some out-of-the-lines usages, and some accidental usages. For any specific page that you think is improperly protected, please start on the protecting administrators talk page. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

@Darwinian Ape: the page Disgusting (for example) would fall into Option B (minus the post/review), and so would example page you mention I think. But apparently EC-P still didn't do its job. See Special:CentralAuth/JeremyCubsfan98, who made 500 edits just to do the damage at that page. (confounding) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 04:42, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, I think these accidental uses are a preview of what we will see if B or C is passed(which is likely,) a beta test if you will. Notice that their expiration dates are indefinite, which I believe will be the norm. Full protection by it's nature has to be short termed, ECP is more like the Semi that it can be used in long periods because the article is technically open to edits. Caution to anyone who see this as a lesser evil. Also someone who has no job never fails to amaze the occupied. Darwinian Ape ^talk 04:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment about Option C, EC is permanent, or usually is, yet socking or edit warring is a fleeting thing. Why would we want to protect an article so that someone can't contribute positively? Perhaps Option C should have a time limit, temp-EC. As for my Option A, I could see a fast-track system of ARBCOM approvals so that we don't have to wait for a full case to get ARBCOM approval for EC. The one thing we SHOULD NOT have is EC available to every admin. It will do terrible things to Wikipedia. Everyone can edit is turning into only the elite can edit. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:30, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

  To implement your not-every-admin suggestion, the permission protect would need to change, and ECP protection would need to be its own permission then, called "extended-protect-pages" perhaps, that doesn't get packaged to sysops by default. Who would grant this permission? Bureaucrats? I personally don't see this happening any time soon. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)