Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard: Difference between revisions
→Sweet Baby Inc.: clarifying that I am not a party to this, since otherwise it will be marked as failed when I continue editing the article. |
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As an additional note, I have made a relevant amendment request to ArbCom [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_GamerGate|here]], which (while not ''directly'' about this dispute or article) does mention it and may preclude participating in this; I think it's clear that this ought to fall under the GamerGate general sanctions, but because it was renamed to gender and sexuality that may not be the case. To reiterate, though, I won't participate either way; there is not enough here to productively engage. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 03:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
As an additional note, I have made a relevant amendment request to ArbCom [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_GamerGate|here]], which (while not ''directly'' about this dispute or article) does mention it and may preclude participating in this; I think it's clear that this ought to fall under the GamerGate general sanctions, but because it was renamed to gender and sexuality that may not be the case. To reiterate, though, I won't participate either way; there is not enough here to productively engage. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 03:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:Since I suspect the fact that I have declined to participate may have been overlooked, I have tagged myself as a non-party and removed myself from the list. My view is that this has already been decided by a clear consensus on the page's talk, and I have no intention of participating further here or being a party to this case. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
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=== Sweet Baby Inc. discussion === |
=== Sweet Baby Inc. discussion === |
Revision as of 21:12, 11 March 2024
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Neith | In Progress | Potymkin (t) | 27 days, 9 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours |
Defense of Sihang Warehouse | New | Adachi1939 (t) | 8 days, 11 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 15 hours | Adachi1939 (t) | 2 days, 11 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 02:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
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Current disputes
1977 anti-Tamil pogrom
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Current dispute is over cited content has been removed by two users Oz346 and Petextrodon who have repeatedly removed cited content added by me claiming "ruining the flow of the article with unnecessary details". Given the highly controversial nature of the article, I feel that the events leading up to the events of at the core of the article needs to be clearly stated to established the context of the events mentioned in the article. Furthermore, these events have been mentioned in the government commission that has been cited heavily to narrate the events that took place during the time covered by the article. However these editors feel that should focus on the pogrom which I feel that is non-WP:NPOV.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#Discussion_on_background_section
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Decide if the content that has been removed should be kept in the article.
Summary of dispute by Oz346
User Cossde wants to have an overly long background section, which expands greatly on Tamil separatism, anti police violence and the 1977 Tamil electoral history. See his preferred version here: [1]. I think this is of undue weight and that the current background section already summarises these topics concisely, without submerging the actual topic of the article which is the 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom. His reliance on the framework of a government commission which has been described as being biased towards the government by other reliable sources, should not be the basis of how an encyclopaedic article on this topic is framed.
1977 anti-Tamil pogrom discussion
Zeroth statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)
I am ready to act as the moderator if at least two editors request a moderator. Please read DRN Rule A and follow the instructions. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion.
Will each editor state briefly what they want to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). It is not necessary at this time to state why you want to change it or do not want to change it. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (1977 pogrom)
Cossde: Yes please. I would greatly appreciate your involvement in this matter and agree to follow the rules mentioned.
- The key dispute at hand is over the that was added by my and removed by these editors over the write up of the prelude to the events of this article. The removed content explains the events leading up to the riots in August 1977 and were fully citied. These are supported by both primary and secondary sources. A primary source, the report of the Government public inquiry was used since it was heavily cited to detail incidents that took place during the riots, coving majority of the written content of this article. My request is that you review the deleted content and consider what needs to be included to develop a meaningful prelude section that covers the events leading up to the riots in August 1977. Cossde (talk) 13:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Yes please, I would appreciate your moderation. I want to leave the current background section as it is, as I believe the proposed changes by the other user is of undue weight for this article, which is about the 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom. Oz346 (talk) 23:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)
One editor has said that they want a third party to review the content in question and decide whether it should be in the article. The usual function of this noticeboard is to facilitate discussion between the parties rather than to make a decision. I am willing to review the content in question and make a decision as to whether it should be kept, and how much of it, but only if the parties agree that they will accept and be bound by the decision. The reason that I insist that my decision must be binding is that I know that it is otherwise likely that one party will not accept the decision, and then it may be difficult or impossible to find a neutral mediator for the continuing argument. So I have two questions. First, do the editors want me to make a binding decision on the questioned content? Second, are the editors willing to take part in moderated discussion (mediation), which, if unsuccessful, will be followed by an RFC?
After those questions are answered, we will continue in one direction or another. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. Cossde (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- yes I agree. Oz346 (talk) 13:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (1977 pogrom)
Second statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)
I think that the question that I asked to answer had to do with the addition and then removal on 19 February of several paragraphs of background information that was described as excessive detail in an edit summary. I don't consider it to be excessive detail to add to the background section. The details about the Tamil separatist movement and about the killing of the policemen help to understand the background of the violence. At least, that is my answer to what I think the question was. There may be some remaining issues about that content that can still be discussed, but my opinion is that it is useful additional background.
Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- If this section (Events leading to August 1977) is just added to the current page, will that be suffice from your POV?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom&oldid=1209136268#Events_leading_up_to_Augest_1977
- I think the additional section edits of "St. Patrick’s College Carnival" is not a good change, as the events of the carnival are already recorded in clear chronological order in this existing section:
- 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#Jaffna District Oz346 (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Robert. Events leading up to the riots helps understand the background to the violance. Only one suggestion here, we could change "Events leading to August 1977" to prelude if that makes better sence. I disagree with Oz346, the section on St. Patrick’s College Carnival should be kept as it gives the diffirent conflicting accounts to the start of the violance.Cossde (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- The different conflicting accounts are already mentioned in this section: 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#The ethnic pogrom.
- It does not make sense to me to excise the events of August 12th from the chronological timeline already set out here: 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#Jaffna District. Oz346 (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- As I agreed earlier, I do not want to take part in a continuing argument. I have stated my view. I defer to the judgement of @Robert McClenon on this matter. Cossde (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Robert. Events leading up to the riots helps understand the background to the violance. Only one suggestion here, we could change "Events leading to August 1977" to prelude if that makes better sence. I disagree with Oz346, the section on St. Patrick’s College Carnival should be kept as it gives the diffirent conflicting accounts to the start of the violance.Cossde (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (1977 pogrom)
@Robert McClenon: I did not think this was completely resolved. I left some concerns which went unanswered regarding whether to have a separate section on the carnival divorced from the overall chronology. I would appreciate the moderators decision on that before final closure. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)
Will each editor please state concisely what they want to change in the article, or what another editor wants to change in the article that they want left alone? The purpose of discussion at DRN, or any content discussion, is to improve the article, so state exactly what the issue is about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Third statements by editors (1977 pogrom)
I believe that a separate section entitled 1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#St._Patrick’s_College_Carnival is unnecessary, and that its current first paragraph should be removed, with the section being renamed back to the "the ethnic pogrom" as before.
The current first paragraph is as follows:
St. Patrick’s College Carnival
On 12 August, four policemen visited a carnival at St. Patrick’s College, where they assaulted Mr. Kulanayagam, who asked them for an entry free.[9][21] The policemen misbehaved and helped themselves freely to food at food stalls without paying.[21] The four off-duty policemen had tried to enter the carnival without paying the entrance fee, policmen were accustomed to using public transport and entering places of entertainment without paying entrance fee. Many policmen regarded this as a privilage. On 12 August the carnival orgernizers resisted and a scuffle ensued, with the uniformed policemen on duty coming to the aid of their colleagues. [15][better source needed] On the 13th, the same policemen again went to the carnival where they clashed with locals around midnight. Two policemen were injured and hospitalised as a result.[21] The policemen had claimed that they had gone in search of two men wanted for a rubbery, this was rejected by Sanson.[21]
This information is better integrated in the existing 1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#Jaffna_District section, where the chronology of events can be followed more logically from August 12th onwards. Having the events of the carnival separated from the subsequent days does not flow well. At the moment there is also repetition of content.
Finally, there has been a dispute about the reliability of a source used in that section, which I feel should not be in the article, as the author Chandraprema has been accused of gross human rights violations as part of the Sri Lankan security forces, and for glorifying Gotabaya Rajapaksa. See discussion here: [2]
Oz346 (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Russo-Ukrainian War
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Pofka (talk · contribs)
- Mzajac (talk · contribs)
- Slatersteven (talk · contribs)
- Parham wiki (talk · contribs)
- RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk · contribs)
- Cinderella157 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Hello, I and others attempted to reach a WP:Consensus regarding the role of Belarus in the article Russo-Ukrainian War, but the issue is quite complicated and requires a strong, broad and long-term WP:Consensus. I think that in the infobox (and elsewhere in this article) Belarus should be described as a "co-belligerent" or as "Supported by" in the side of Russia in this war (e.g. like that) because of Belarus exceptional role in this war which is already more than just "Supplied by" (e.g. military hardware to Russia).
The role of Belarus in this war is exceptional because during the highly intensified phase of this war since 24 February 2022 (see: Russian invasion of Ukraine), the Russian Army forces were allowed to: 1) invade Ukraine from the Belarusian territory through ground (1, 2); 2) Russian jets have taken off from Belarus (from Belarusian airbases) to subsequently enter Ukraine from Belarusian airspace (3); 3) Belarus allowed Russia full access to its military airbases for Russian military aircraft to launch aircraft and its army installations to shoot artillery and missiles from Belarusian territory towards Ukraine (4, 5); 4) see more info here: Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Consequently, although no evidence was collected that the Armed Forces of Belarus themselves invaded Ukraine (which would make Belarus a full belligerent in this war), the role of Belarus is clearly not equal to other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Germany to Ukraine; Iran/North Korea to Russia) because they have never allowed to use their territories for direct military actions against Ukraine/Russia (and their armies), while Belarus allowed to do that.
Many sources describe Belarus as a "co-belligerent" in this war: Institute for the Study of War (6, 7), Ukrainian sources (8, 9), and others (e.g. 10, 11).
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
- Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War#Belligerents: supported by Belarus (the latest discussion about the role of Belarus where no consensus was reached; started in November 2023)
- Talk:Russo-Ukrainian_War/Archive 20#Belarus' involvement (discussion about the role of Belarus in this war; started in March 2022)
- Talk:Russo-Ukrainian_War/Archive 18#Belarus as a direct participant of the war in the first sentence (discussion about the role of Belarus in this war; started in February 2022)
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I think that a qualified help is necessary to start a broad WP:RFC discussion (by informing as many users as possible through Wiki projects, etc.) and reach a WP:CONS. I believe that in the upcoming RFC other users should be informed about my arguments provided here in the "Dispute overview" section. To simplify the upcoming RFC voting, I think that the users should be given three options regarding the role of Belarus: A) Co-belligerent; B) Supported by; C) Supplied by.
Summary of dispute by Mzajac
Summary of dispute by Slatersteven
At its heart, the issue really is not about Belarus, but attempts to claim parity with NATO.
Belarus allowed Russian forces to launch attacks from its soil but did not (as far as I am aware) participate. As such it both did more and less than just supplying arms. This creates a rather odd situation where they are not (technically) a belligerent but also are not uninvolved. Thus is seems that they need a middle-ground approach. Slatersteven (talk) 18:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Parham wiki
Summary of dispute by RadioactiveBoulevardier
I doubt that another round of discussions will forge a clearer consensus at this time, despite the passage of some real time and the topic-banning of a major and…polarizing contributor. I think Slatersteven is right about “wait for the historians” (which means big thick hardcover books of sober analysis, not ideology-laced works like those of Timothy Snyder and the infelicitously named Serhii Plokhy).
It sounds like Pofka wants Belarus listed as a co-belligerent. This is, as Cinderella157 said, WP:EXCEPTIONAL (since the term has a specific formal definition). The term has occasionally been bandied about by biased sources like our old friends at ISW (which is, last I checked, still a post-neocon Washington think tank) and stuff but it would be functionally equivalent to listing Belarus along with Russia with no caveats.
This possibility was at multiple points raised by Mzajac and, unlike the use of “supported by” to represent Belarus’ unique status during the initial invasion, was not endorsed by a plurality.
On other pages I’ve already stated quite a lot (although by the metrics a fraction of the amount several others have written). I don’t see the point in rehashing old arguments when diffs are forever.
In fact, I would like to continue the slow fade from talk pages in this topic area. I have better things to do –having already fallen down the rabbit hole that is EE studies at college, I don’t feel like being contrarian and realistic is consistent anymore with the part of me that enjoys sipping tea with cute refugees and erudite dissidents.
I hope some of this late-night stream-of-consciousness has been helpful to the DR process. While I’m not leaving RUSUKR entirely, I’ve pretty much had more than enough of the talk page atmosphere.
Summary of dispute by Cinderella157
Slatersteven summarises the situation quite well. The evidence omits where Pofka added Belarus to the infobox under the heading of Co-belligerence. It was deleted by me with the summary: A WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. The status of belligerence is not supported by the body of the article per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE
. There is nuance to co-belligerence here. It is not consistent with the usual meaning - engaged in the fighting. From the discussions, there is clearly no appetite to add Belarus to the infobox as a co-belligerent because it is too nuanced in this instance. Supported by is depricated unless there is an affirmative consensus (RfC) to use it as in Russian invasion of Ukraine. As Russian invasion of Ukraine is a daughter article, of the Russo-Ukrainian War, I am in two minds that the RfC at the invasion article supports inclusion in the war article but other editors have indicated the need for a separate RfC in recent discussions. That is fine. Just start the RfC using the RfC at the invasion article as the template. On a side note, Supplied by in the war article is clearly and end-around the deprecation of "supported by", contrary to the spirit and intent of the RfC deprecating "supported by". It should be removed. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Robert McClenon, the first question is whether Belarus should be listed at all. The second is how. But the distinction might be moot. My observation is that an RfC to list Belarus under "supported by" would likely gain consensus. An RfC with multiple options would likely result in "no consensus" just because that is commonly how non-binary RfCs conclude. A binary RfC for anything other than "supported by" will not, in my considered opinion, result in "consensus for". This seems to me to be an unusual DR, since the solution is evident - an RfC. It appears to be a case of asking advice on what the RfC should ask, when this usually occurs through TP discussion. My advice is to make an RfC to list Belarus under "supported by". It is better to go with the flow than to try to push shit up-hill with a pointy stick. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:00, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Russo-Ukrainian War discussion
Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian War)
I am ready to act as the moderator for discussion that may lead to an RFC. We will use DRN Rule D because this dispute involves a contentious topic. Some topic areas in Wikipedia are subject to battleground editing because they have been real battlegrounds in the past. Eastern Europe has been a battleground too many times in the past century and is the bloodiest battleground of the twenty-first century. If you agree to take part in this discussion, you are agreeing that Eastern Europe is a contentious topic.
Are there any questions other than how Belarus should be listed? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Ukrainian War)
Zeroth statement by Pofka
@Robert McClenon: Yes, I fully agree that this contentious topic is highly problematic due to likely disruptive editing and that is why I have requested assistance to reach a long-standing WP:CONS about the role/status of Belarus in this war in order to prevent battleground editing in this article in the future. Currently, I have no additional questions to you Robert.
By the way, in June 2023 Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko claimed that "the only mistake we made’ was not finishing off Ukraine with Russia in 2014
" (see: full article), which makes it clear that Lukashenko also tractate the current Ukraine as the enemy of Belarus and seeks for Ukraine's defeat militarily (clearly acting as co-belligerent). I think "co-belligerent" is a suitable middle ground approach for Belarus between belligerents (Russia and Ukraine) and military suppliers (United States, France, Germany, Iran, North Korea, etc.). -- Pofka (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)
One editor has made a statement and thinks that Belarus should be listed as a co-belligerent. There was an opening comment that Belarus should be listed as providing support. If there are no other viewpoints presented, the RFC will ask the community whether to list Belarus as providing support or as a co-belligerent.
Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Ukrainian War)
First statement by Cinderella157
A proposed RfC must explicitly state something to effect: "Should Belarus be listed in the belligerent section of the info box with Russia: a) no, b) without qualification, c) under a heading of Co-belligerent, or d) under a heading supported by".
To choice a), listing Belarus as providing support or as a co-belligerent is not actually a binary question. Belarus is not listed at present. Continuing to not list it is an option.
To choice b) where multiple belligerents are listed in the same column of the infobox, they are ipso facto co-belligerents, by which, listing Belarus under an explicit heading of "co-belligerent" is redundant, if not ambiguous.
Trying to list Belarus under an explicit heading of co-belligerent is ambiguous and would attempt to convey nuance for which the infobox is totally unsuited. Such a proposal will (in my humble and experienced opinion) be shot down in flames faster than a SCUD missile heading for Jerusalem. If Pofka wants to continue to push this uphill with a pointy stick, then all I can say is knock your socks off (ie - go ahead). Cinderella157 (talk) 10:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)
Is there agreement that the RFC should state something to effect: "Should Belarus be listed in the belligerent section of the info box with Russia: a) no, b) without qualification, c) under a heading of Co-belligerent, or d) under a heading supported by".?
Are there any other proposals for what the RFC should ask? Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Ukrainian War)
Second statement by Pofka
@Robert McClenon: I mostly agree with the upcoming RFC voting choices suggestion described in your second statement (according to Cinderella157's first statement above), but I think that Belarus should be described as "co-belligerent" not only in the infobox of this article, but elsewhere in the article as well (otherwise it would likely violate infobox guidelines). Moreover, I repeat once again that information and sources from my initial statement ("Dispute overview" section) should be also provided in the upcoming RFC (before these a, b, c, d voting choices) because many users-voters might not be fully familiar with the role of Belarus in this war and why it is significantly different from other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Iran). Here is how I think the RFC should look like:
Extended content
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This RFC was initiated because it is necessary to reach a strong WP:CONS in article Russo-Ukrainian War regarding the role of Belarus in this war.
The role of Belarus in this war is quite exceptional because during the highly intensified phase of this war since 24 February 2022 (see: Russian invasion of Ukraine) the Russian Army forces were allowed to: 1) invade Ukraine from the Belarusian territory through ground (1, 2); 2) Russian jets have taken off from Belarus (from Belarusian airbases) to subsequently enter Ukraine from Belarusian airspace (3); 3) Belarus allowed Russia full access to its military airbases for Russian military aircraft to launch aircraft and its army installations to shoot artillery and missiles from Belarusian territory towards Ukraine (4, 5); 4) see more information in dedicated article: Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Consequently, although no evidence was collected that the Armed Forces of Belarus themselves invaded Ukraine (which would possibly make Belarus a full belligerent in this war), the role of Belarus is possibly not equal to other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Germany to Ukraine; Iran/North Korea to Russia) because they have never allowed to use their territories for direct military actions against Ukraine/Russia (and their armies), while Belarus allowed to do that. Moreover, in June 2023 Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko claimed that "the only mistake we made’ was not finishing off Ukraine with Russia in 2014" (see: full article). Popular sources already describe Belarus as a "co-belligerent" in this war: Institute for the Study of War (6, 7), Ukrainian sources (e.g. 8, 9), and others (e.g. 10, 11). Please provide your opinion how Belarus should be described in article Russo-Ukrainian War (in the infobox and elsewhere in this article where events since 24 February 2022 related with Belarus are described): |
@Cinderella157: @RadioactiveBoulevardier: what do you think about such RFC text suggested by me above? -- Pofka (talk) 21:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)
I have created a draft RFC for review, at Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War/RFC on Listing of Belarus. Please review and comment on it. It is not an active RFC, and has tags to deactivate it until it is moved to the article talk page. Do not !vote in it. Comment on it here, not in it.
Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Third statements by editors (Ukrainian War)
Third statement by Pofka
@Robert McClenon: If you think that a more extensive explanation why the role of Belarus is likely exceptional in this war should not be included, then I think the RFC draft (Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War/RFC on Listing of Belarus) should be at least modified like that: "Should Belarus be listed in the infobox (and accordingly described in other parts of the article concerning the events since 24 January 2024)
: (a). no (as at present); (b) as supported by; (c) as a co-belligerent; (d) without qualification?" The RFC should not be simplified only towards the infobox but must cover the whole article because with the provided RFC draft of yours, Robert, we will most likely be voting to violate/ignore WP:INFOBOX guidelines or no because information provided in the infobox must be described in the body of the article as well. We cannot vote to whenever describe Belarus as a co-belligerent in the infobox only, but not elsewhere in the article, so I disagree with your currently proposed RFC draft, Robert. Please add my suggested green text with a wiki link to article Russian invasion of Ukraine to RFC draft and then I will support it. -- Pofka (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)
User:Pofka - Please do not attribute positions to the moderator or lecture the moderator. I have no specific desire to present the role of Belarus in this war as exceptional. I think that you do, and I am trying to work to ask the community if they agree with you. If you want to help me help you, you can do it by not being harsh in your correction.
I have revised the draft RFC in accordance with your comments, and am now asking you and the other editors to comment further on whether it is ready to go live. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Fourth statements by editors (Ukrainian War)
Fourth statement by Pofka
@Robert McClenon: Sorry if I sounded harsh. I was just trying to explain how I think the question in the upcoming RFC should be presented. I fully agree with the updated RFC draft, but I think there is a grammatic mistake with that dot between "in the infobox. and accordingly". Shouldn't it be a comma or brackets? -- Pofka (talk) 09:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Boeing 737 MAX
![]() | Closed as probably resolved by talk page discussion. If there are any remaining issues, continue discussion at the article talk page. A new thread can be opened here after lengthy and inconclusive discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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MP4 file_format
![]() | Closed as failed. I sort of thank User:Ftrebien for reporting that there had been edit-warring of the statements by the editors. DRN Rule A and its siblings don't say not to rearrange statements by editors, because I didn't think of making a rule. I probably will add such a prohibition to the rulesets. It is unfortunately clear to me that the editors are not taking part in moderated discussion constructively. I don't monitor user talk pages of editors, and didn't notice a long exchange between two editors, which wasn't collaborative. I am failing this discussion. There are two remaining avenues for dispute resolution, which are not mutually exclusive. A Request for Comments can be used. That is the alternative that may improve the encyclopedia. A report can be made to WP:ANI. That is the alternative to stop conduct that interferes with improving the encyclopedia. If there is an RFC, it should be neutrally worded. An editor should read the boomerang essay before reporting to WP:ANI. This moderated discussion has failed. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Ali Amin Gandapur
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I think moving the Sobia Shahid audio to her page is a good idea, but I don't get why Sheriff keeps deleting my other edits. Mine are neutral, unlike his, which claimed, "Critics say his appointment as Chief Minister has damaged the party's image and ability to govern well." Gandapur has only been in power for a few days, so how did they come to that conclusion? I get that it's written in the article but we are supposed to maintain neutrality on Wikipedia.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Ali Amin Gandapur#Avoiding an Edit war
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I believe that a third-person can help us reach an agreement and resolve the dispute.
Summary of dispute by SheriffIsInTown
I observed their effort to delete information regarding his misogynistic comments towards Maryam Nawaz and the addition of an irrelevant threat attributed to Sobia Shahid from an unidentified Twitter account, which seemed like an endeavor to censor information and shift blame onto the victim. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't delete the comments about Maryam, I actually included it here WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 00:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I clearly see the whole chunk regarding Maryam being deleted which was the big reason for dispute commencement. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The "chunk" your referring to is just one sentence about Maryam. I rewrote it and included the exact details of what he said with a source. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- By "chunk," I mean that you eliminated all the information related to Maryam in your initial edit. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The initial edit is irrelevant as I corrected it in the next one. This doesn't explain why you continued to delete it. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your most recent edit also had its issues, which led to its reversal. You removed the sourced information from the start which captured the gist of everything about his remarks against Maryam. Additionally, what you assert you added concerning Maryam barely scratched the surface of the offensive remarks he made about her. Furthermore, your attempt to mitigate sexism against Sobia by introducing unwarranted and unrelated content from an unidentified Twitter account was questionable. Thus, the burden of explanation should fall on you instead of me in this instance. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The initial edit is irrelevant as I corrected it in the next one. This doesn't explain why you continued to delete it. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- By "chunk," I mean that you eliminated all the information related to Maryam in your initial edit. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The "chunk" your referring to is just one sentence about Maryam. I rewrote it and included the exact details of what he said with a source. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I clearly see the whole chunk regarding Maryam being deleted which was the big reason for dispute commencement. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Ali Amin Gandapur discussion
- Volunteer Note - Discussion has been in progress on the article talk page for only a few hours, not 24 hours. Continue discussion on the article talk page for 24 hours. Be civil, and comment on content, not contributors. I am neither opening nor closing this case at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Ali Amin Gandapur)
I am ready to act as the moderator. Please read DRN Rule D. The subject of the article is a Pakistani politician, and articles about Pakistani politics and politicians are covered by the ArbCom decision on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. I will repeat a few rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. That already hasn't worked. The moderator (me) will ask the questions, and is the representative of the community. The editors will address their answers to the moderator and the community.
Do the editors agree to abide by the rules, and agree that the contentious topic procedure is in effect?
The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the encyclopedia. So I will ask each editor: What do you want to change in the article, or what do you want to leave alone that another editor wants to change? You don't need to say why at this time. I will ask that in the next round. Exactly what is the content dispute? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree to abide by the rules and that the procedure is in effect. I'm sort of okay with how the page looks now, but the part about being "misogynistic" is being taken out of context. In Gandapur's speech, he quotes Maryam saying "jaisa moo vaisi chapair" which translates to "As the face, so the slap" in English. Gandapur then proceeds to respond to her threat with "I have a lot more to say but I will only say this to her (Maryam) that if we come to slap then you will get slapped so much that your [real] face will be uncovered from the Rs80 million [cosmetic] surgery you have done from our [tax] money." I believe someone who knows Urdu can vouch for me as there really isn't a misogynistic element here. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 22:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree by the rules and procedures. Currently, I have no intention of altering anything further, and I also prefer that other editor refrains from making any further changes to the "Controversies" and "Arrest" sections. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Ali Amin Gandapur)
Sri Lanka Armed Forces
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Oz346 (talk · contribs)
- Cossde (talk · contribs)
- UtoD (talk · contribs)
- Petextrodon (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
On the Sri Lanka Armed Forces page, Cossde claims through his edits that the UN report supports the following sentence which he has added, which states "with the LTTE preventing the civilian from leaving as they used them as human shields and attempted to create an humanitarian crises."
The UN report on Sri Lanka says nothing of the sort, and he has been apprised of this multiple times: [20], [21], [22]
Despite this he has repeatedly reinserted this sentence not supported by the citations into the article.
The UN report which is cited in the news articles after Cossde's OR sentence explicitly states this on p.65, and actually contradicts Cossde's claim:
"the Panel believes that these actions did not, in law, amount to the use of human shields insofar as it did not find credible evidence of the LTTE deliberately moving civilians towards military targets to protect the latter from attacks as is required by the customary definition of that war crime (Rule 97, ICRC Study))."[1]
There is also no mention from any of the reliable sources cited that the "LTTE attempted to create an humanitarian crises" as he claims. It has failed WP:BURDEN yet he persists.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sri_Lanka_Armed_Forces#Disruptive_revert/edit_war_by_user_Cossde
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
By checking that the added sentence is supported by the existing citations or not, and to decide whether to keep it in the article.
Summary of dispute by Cossde
Oz346 is correct in quoting of the UN report, however as ususal Oz346 has cherrypicked points, avoiding broader context. Said qoute comes from the chaperter titled "Legal Evaluation of Allegations" which states that "current evaluation is limited to the legal characterization of the allegations; the Panel's view that a certain allegation would not violate internaitonal law should in no way be interpreted as an endorsement of the underlying activity." The UN report then goes to state that "The Panel's determination of credible allegations against the LTTE associated with the final stages of the war reveal six core categories of potential serious violations: (i) using civilains as a hunman buffer (ii) killing civilians attempting to flee LTTE control; (iii) using military equipment in the proximity of civilians; (iv) forced recruitment of children (v) forced labour; and (vi) killing of civilians through suicide attacks.". At one point the report states "Civilians were increasingly sacrificed as dispensable "cannon fodder" while the LTTE fought to protect its senior leadership.". It also mentions that "the role of the Tamil diaspora, which provided vital moral and material support to the LTTE over decades, and some of whom refuse to acknowledge the LTTE's role in the humanitarian disaster in the Vanni, creating a further obstacle to accuntability and sustainable peace". Frances Harrison in his book Still Counting the Dead: Survivors of Sri Lanka’s Hidden War does mention that credible evidence that the LTTE itself wanted to deliberately create a humanitarian disaster. Cossde (talk) 13:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Human buffers is not the same as human shields, as the UN report explicitly mentions. None of the sources cited after your sentence makes the claim of human shields, so it is original research.
- 2. Likewise, the phrase you added claiming the "LTTE attempted to create a humanitarian crisis" is more original research not supported by the references cited. Having a role in the humanitarian disaster is not the same as "attempting to create one". Oz346 (talk) 15:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by UtoD
My main opposition was the WP:UNDUE addition of an incident of sexual abuse by peacekeepers from 2004. It is extremely undue and would be indiscriminatory to add random instances of historical abuse to every SL armed forces page. I agree with Cossde's assessment assessment of the other issue on the UN report but I am willing to allow changes if the WP:UNDUE addition on the peacekeeper incident is removed. -UtoD 14:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Petextrodon
The dispute is over the following sentence that user Cossde added and user UtoD re-added: "with the LTTE preventing the civilian from leaving as they used them as human shields and attempted to create an humanitarian crises"
Evidently neither user has bothered to read the cited source properly since the UN report explicitly contradicts the claim on the use of human shields as explained to them multiple times by myself and user Oz346. Furthermore, by placing that sentence right after "with most civilian casualties in the final phases of the war being blamed on Sri Lankan Army shelling", an impression is created that most civilian casualties were caused by the LTTE's use of "human shields" although the cited source does not state this. --- Petextrodon (talk) 22:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Sri Lanka Armed Forces discussion
References
First Statement by Moderator (Sri Lankan Armed Forces)
I am ready to begin moderation of this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A and agree to abide by its rules. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors.
It appears that one of the issues is an edit that has been made and reverted concerning allegations of the use of human shields during the Sri Lankan Civil War and also concerning sexual abuse by peacekeeping forces. Is that the only content issue? If there are other content issues, please state what they are. Also, will each editor please state concisely why they think that the contested and reverted edit either should be restored or should not be restored? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
First Statements by Editors (Sri Lankan Armed Forces)
(1) The following sentence is not supported by the citations: "with the LTTE preventing the civilian from leaving as they used them as human shields and attempted to create an humanitarian crises."
The UN report which is cited in the news articles after this sentence explicitly states this on p.65, and actually contradicts this claim:
"the Panel believes that these actions did not, in law, amount to the use of human shields insofar as it did not find credible evidence of the LTTE deliberately moving civilians towards military targets to protect the latter from attacks as is required by the customary definition of that war crime (Rule 97, ICRC Study))."[1]
There is also no mention from any of the reliable sources cited that the "LTTE attempted to create an humanitarian crises". I believe that this original research should be removed, as it is not supported by the citations and has failed WP:BURDEN.
(2) Regarding the sexual abuse by the peacekeepers, I see no valid reason why it should be removed from the section on peacekeepers. It is reliably sourced and not excessively long, and therefore neither fails WP:BURDEN, nor is it of undue weight. Oz346 (talk) 12:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Heiner Rindermann
![]() | Closed as already pending in another forum, the biographies of living persons noticeboard. DRN does not accept a dispute that is already pending in another forum. Taking a dispute from one noticeboard to another noticeboard in Wikipedia is known as telling the other parent and is strongly discouraged. Continue discussion at BLPN. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dragon
![]() | Closed due to lack of notice, and as incorrectly filed. The editor who filed this case was logged out at the time, probably by accident, and did not notify the other editor. Resume discussion on the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, a new case request can be filed; the filing editor should be logged in, and must notify the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Turkey
![]() | Closed as declined. Two of the editors who have been notified have declined to participate at this time in DRN, which is voluntary. Continue discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Sweet Baby Inc.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Moon darker (talk · contribs)
- TE(æ)A,ea. (talk · contribs)
- Rhain (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Sweet Baby Inc. is currently the main part of a big controversy in gaming community. Many facts confirm that this company has written the plot (or subplots) of many games over the past decade.
The problem is that it has only been confirmed by individual employees of the company, including the CEO and writers. These employees also started the controversy in the first place, by posting tweets asking to mass-report a Steam group and related Steam curator that was pointing out which games were affected by Sweet Baby Inc. Along with the group and curator, said employee also insisted on mass-reporting the personal account of a person behind the group and curator, quote "since he loves his account so much".
Everything I described above is covered in the article only from Sweet Baby Inc. point of view (or not covered at all) and editors can't reach a consensus on this.
The main problem is: this is not covered well by mass media outlets considered WP:RS, and information provided by reliable sources goes against how majority of actual people from gaming communities see the situation, not to mention it goes against WP:UCS. You can learn more from discussions on the related talk page.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Provide guidance on how to maintain neutral point of view when there's not enough reliable sources (because the entire event is unfolding on forums, which are not a reliable source), while adhering to common sense. Reliable sources are not supported by an absolute majority of people in this case, and it doesn't take much research to see why.
Summary of dispute by TE(æ)A,ea.
Summary of dispute by Rhain
The article's content is heavily based on reliable sources (some non-exceptional claims are cited in an WP:ABOUTSELF manner, but nothing related to the "controversy") and I believe it is written from a neutral point of view. Events occurring on forums have no place on Wikipedia unless considered notable and covered by reliable sources. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 04:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by (non-party) Aquillion
I think that Moon darker's own statements above are sufficiently damning to their own position that I have little to add; they're overtly asking that we ignore WP:RSes based on their own WP:OR, based on what their personal unsourced opinions about how the majority of actual people from gaming communities see the situation
, based on what they consider common sense
, and based on their personal unsourced belief that reliable sources are not supported by an absolute majority of people in this case
}. Obviously, these wouldn't be a reason for us to diverge from reliable sourcing even if it were true, though I don't even think they are true. There's nothing more to say to that - they've fairly clearly indicated that they're here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and "correct" what they see as inaccurate coverage in WP:RSes. Obviously a dispute resolution request cannot grant them the ability to ignore WP:RS or to cite things from forums based on their personal belief that the opinions from those forums are in some hypothetical majority of gamers, nor can they present strung-together screenshots and primary sources pulled out of context to present some sort of argument just because a few people on Twitter believe it... so unless someone has a policy-compliant argument to make here I'm not going to participate further in any DR case.
I should also point out that the dispute is less than a day old and that numerous people have weighed in on the relevant discussion that Moon darker did not include here (virtually all of them, at a glance, clearly opposed to his position); for these reasons, as well, I don't see any value to this attempt at dispute resolution.
As an additional note, I have made a relevant amendment request to ArbCom here, which (while not directly about this dispute or article) does mention it and may preclude participating in this; I think it's clear that this ought to fall under the GamerGate general sanctions, but because it was renamed to gender and sexuality that may not be the case. To reiterate, though, I won't participate either way; there is not enough here to productively engage. --Aquillion (talk) 03:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Since I suspect the fact that I have declined to participate may have been overlooked, I have tagged myself as a non-party and removed myself from the list. My view is that this has already been decided by a clear consensus on the page's talk, and I have no intention of participating further here or being a party to this case. --Aquillion (talk) 21:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Sweet Baby Inc. discussion
Comment on summary by Rhain: the reason this article was created in the first place is "events occuring on forums". I deem it impossible to cover events occuring on forums without covering the primary sources. It might imply that the best way to deal with this situation is to WP:PROD the article in question.
Comment on summary by Aquillion: I noticed that you didn't mention WP:CS. If you take all the numbers into consideration, I don't see how is it possible for you to "don't even think they are true". Either you are acting on behalf of the company in question here, or, uhh, I don't even know what else could it be. Also, it's not about WP:RGW, it's about balance in coverage of both sides.
In general, I propose broader use of WP:CS and WP:SELFSOURCE in this article, because it's simply impossible to cover everything by WP:RS. That's my last comment until a third party arrives to handle this matter.
Correction: When I mentioned WP:CS earlier, I meant WP:UCS, that's why Aquillion couldn't understand what I was saying below. Apologies for that. --Moon darker (talk) 08:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
--Moon darker (talk) 04:47, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand your references to WP:CS (though I have cited WP:RS and numerous aspects of it to you repeatedly, which is the really important policy here.) What part of WP:CS or WP:RS do you think helps you? You've vaguely indicated that you that you believe WP:ABOUTSELF / WP:SELFSOURCE could somehow help you add your personal theory of what the controversy is "really" about to the article, since you're disappointed that none of the WP:RSes who have covered it have described it the way you like... but I've already explained why that's not workable. You need to actually read WP:ABOUTSELF (and WP:SYNTH, which is related here.) WP:ABOUTSELF is not usable for exceptional claims about third parties, for self-serving claims, or for structuring an argument out of primary sources that isn't stated in any of them. WP:ABOUTSELF is for things like uncontroversial biographical details or for "this company has X employees", not for flashpoints in major controversies. The very fact that you want to use WP:ABOUTSELF to lay out your personal theory for what you think the controversy is "really about" shows why it is utterly unusable here. Again, these are not obscure complicated niche aspects of how sourcing works, or niche details of sourcing and policy that are up for debate and interpretation, but fundamental aspects of how we write Wikipedia articles. We do have secondary sources, and they're very clear; you just disagree with their focus and conclusions. And that's fine! The solution to that is to write letters to them asking for corrections and retractions, or to wait and hope that other sources cover it in a different way, not to demand that Wikipedia ignore its sourcing policies. (And, for the record, the article was created a month ago, although it was stubbified and draftified until the recent controversy led to it being re-expanded.) --Aquillion (talk) 05:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Please refrain from twisting my words. Like I said on the article talk page, I want to use WP:SELFSOURCE to add citations of tweets by the Sweet Baby Inc. employees. Moon darker (talk) 06:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Expanding on my last answer, the initial discovery of Sweet Baby Inc. happened around half a year ago, but back then employees of the company didn't attack any independent curators, and nobody dug too deep into it. I'd assume that initial drafts of the article date back to around that time frame. -- Moon darker (talk) 07:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- If you feel it's impossible to cover the event fully without relying on forums and other primary sources, then the article will never cover it fully to your liking—it's not Wikipedia's job to right great wrongs, just to report information that is verifiable using reliable sources. I will not be responding here further (for now) per the notice atop this section. Thanks. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 07:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
First Statement by Moderator (Sweet Baby)
I am ready to act as the moderator for this case. Please read DRN Rule A and indicate that you agree to conform to the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion.
The purpose of article dispute resolution is to improve the article. So I am asking each editor to state, concisely, what they want to change in the article, or what they want left alone that another editor wants to change. Do not provide a long explanation of why you want or do not want the chance. We may or may not go into that later. Just tell what you want to change.
Also, it appears that some of the issues may have to do with the reliability of sources. If there are any issues with the reliability of sources, please identify them as such now, and we will ask Reliable Source Noticeboard to evaluate them. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Statement 1.1 by Moderator (Sweet Baby)
It has been brought to my attention that the content dispute involves the contentious topic of controversies over gender and sexuality. We will be conducting this moderated discussion under DRN Rule D. When DRN Rule D is in effect, it is necessary for participants to acknowledge that they understand that the ArbCom contentious topic sanctions are in effect. Please read DRN Rule D and state that you agree to comply with it. I am still asking the same initial questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
First Statements by Editors (Sweet Baby)
First statement by Moon darker
I agree to follow ground rules described in DRN Rule D and I understand that the ArbCom contentious topic sanctions are in effect.
I want to expand on current text of "Online backlash and harassment" part of the article. Ideally, by including information from primary sources to explain the reasoning behind actions of various gaming communities per talk page. If you believe this request is a viable one for RSN, it would be great.
Alternative 1 is to revert to this revision of the page and reconsider used sources for this particular article via RSN.
Alternative 2 is to completely remove "Online backlash and harassment" part due to WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS and reconsider used sources for this particular article via RSN. --Moon darker (talk) 03:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Statement 1.1 by Moon darker
Primary sources mentioned above are: tweet one, tweet two, GDC talk, tweet by the author of Kotaku news article that is still used as a reliable source on page in question and possibly more similar not WP:RS-worthy sources (possibly WP:SELFSOURCE-worthy) that are crucial for accurate coverage of the topic. --Moon darker (talk) 03:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Matzoon
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Dispute over the origins of Matzoon. We have been having extensive discussion in the talk page whether or not Matzoon should be mentioned as a product of Georgian origin, alongside of Armenian origin or not. There are number of sources that mention the origins of the product as Georgian as well as Armenian. We need help resolving this dispute as the discussions are not going anywhere and because of the reason that opposition refuses to further discuss this issue.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Matzoon#Recent_citations_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matzoon#Recent_citations_issues
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Both countries should be included as origins of the product; As there are number of sources providing basis for this resolution.
Summary of dispute by Vanezi Astghik
Summary of dispute by Lemabeta
in the source it says: Springer. p. 212 - "Matzoon (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi. Short Description: "Of Armenian origin; Georgia, Caucasus (USSR); traditional product; the milk of ewes, goats, buffalo, or cows or mixtures thereof; yoghurt like product traditionally made from boiled milk and an undefined starter culture; firm consistency and acidic flavor."
My interpretation of the source is that the author names the countries from where the origins of Matzoon/Matsoni is from, thats why he mentions Georgia, Caucasus(USSR), alongside Armenia.
My oppositions opinion is that because it doesn't say specifically "Of Georgian origin" and says Georgia, Caucasus that it doesn't need to be mentioned in the article that origins of Matsoni are also from Georgia.
My opinion is also also agreed by the European Union, Switzerland, United Kingdom through a bi-lateral agreement about Geographical Indications registration[29] who recognizes the patented copyright laws and geographical distribution indication of Matsoni.
"DESCRIPTION OF THE FINISHED PRODUCT AND RAW MATERIAL:
MATSONI is a Georgian traditional cultured milk product, which is prepared from the milk of cow, buffalo, goat, sometimes sheep or their mixing. The cultured milk fermentation gives the product named “Dedo”, which consists of bacterial strains, existed in the local area of Georgia.[30]
GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF PRODUCTION:
Obtaining, processing and fermentation of milk for MATSONI production takes place in the whole territory of Georgia. Fermentation for obtaining of cultured milk product occurs by the “Dedo” consisting of local bacteria strains."[31]
Also the opposition, who are Armenians refuse to accept other kind of sources which also call Matsoni as "Georgian yoghurt", they delete the any attempt of writing it as "of Armenian and Georgian origins" even tho legally Georgia has more claim over it.
The sources they deleted are following: [32] [33] [34]
Please help us resolve this issue. Thank you --Lemabeta (talk) 08:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Matzoon discussion
Rio Grande 223
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I am concerned with User:DTParker1000's ongoing edits to Rio Grande 223 and similar pages such as Rio Grande 268. In my opinion the tone involves puffery and broad non-academic claims. I also raised complaints about the reliability of the sources used. I have removed DTParker1000's edits to the 223 page several times, and he has retorted that I am trying to delete the history of the subject. DTParker1000 has stated that he finds my view point on the relevant history to 223 to be too narrow, and dry focused on the mechanical history of the locomotive itself, and that his writing provides relevance to the history of the engine. I have retorted that his writing has caused scope creep, and burdens the article with a broad history lecture full of his opinions and biases that is irrelevant to the locomotive's actual historical importance. I have also contended that the photos of similar (but not the same) locomotives DTParker1000 has added also distract from the article's purported purpose to focus on 223, especially when 223 itself is adequately covered by the photos already in the article. DTParker1000 has also accused me of deleting talk page logs, which I believe is a false accusation.
After some back and forth on WikiProjectTrains and other pages such as Rio Grande 268, the debate escalated on the talk page for 223 with several other editors chiming in within the last few days regarding their opinion on the edits. With multiple editors now chiming in and sharing barbs, there is a lack of consensus on what to do with the 223 page, and it is causing contention with people removing or rewriting segments of DTParker1000's additions to the page. My own emotions are hot enough, that I figure that while I believe my concerns still stand, I need to take a step back and cool my own thoughts on the situation to allow for a more civil tone to enter the debate. A Third Opinion on the 268 page suggested we bring this as a DRN request to resolve it.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Rio Grande 268 Talk:Rio Grande 223 Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains User talk:DTParker1000
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I have gotten very heated myself in this discussion and would appreciate a more neutral arbitrator to help civilly resolve this. While I do feel passionate about the subject, I admit I haven't been the most civil with DTParker1000 in all of my interactions so far. We need to resolve the scope and content decisions on the 223 page, and determine how to best represent the history of the locomotive beyond DTParker and I's opposing views on how to do it.