Talk:Israel

This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when responding to comments on this talk page.

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Mislabeled

How can Israel be called a democracy when the Israeli government itself states that Israel is a Jewish state for the Jewish people. Israel's ambassador to the UN repeated the same sentiments recently in an interview. Furthermore, there are countless laws in place favoring Jews over other members of society (e.g. Christians and Muslims).

Israel can't be described as a democracy for several reasons: Any Jew in any country can move to Israel and immediately receive citizenship and financial subsidies. Christians and Muslims can't do so despite having family and relatives in Israel proper. I have heard the argument that since there are Arab MPs in the Knesset it is a slam dunk case. Well, that's not good enough. That does not constitute a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. Unless of course, some would like to argue that Israel IS a democracy when compared to other states in the Middle East. Well, if that’s the case, then I must warn you that Iran and Pakistan are competing for that title.

Israel's purpose, to serve as a home for the Jewish people, is not a odds with its democratic nature. All citizens can vote, their votes are all worth the same. Israel holds regular, fair, elections, and is controlled by the elected government. It has separation of powers, protects the rights and liberties of its people, including the rights of minorities. It answers every criteria for liberal democracy, so that's what it is.

"countless laws"? Really? Why don't you try counting them, for me?

A country has a right to determine who gets citizenship, and is not under any obligation to grant citizenship to anyone. Many countries grant citizenship preferably to people of the same national decent. I'm talking about western democracies like Germany, France and Finland. You can read about it in Right of return. okedem 14:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

First poster (the anonymous one) is discussing not the article but his personal partisan opinion. If the United Nations and the great majority of other nations -- especially those in the West -- regard Israel as a "democracy," then it's a democracy. --Michael K. Smith 16:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The Israeli government is (for the most part)isn't jewish, and it isn't a Jewish State for Jews in Eretz Yisroel as they advertise, but rather just A state for Jews in Eretz Yisroel. The only difference between USA and The Modern Heretical State of Israel is (beside size, location and language) is that one is a Parliamentary democracy, and the other is a direct democracy. Thats my two cents. --Shuliavrumi 22:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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Okedem, I'll list SOME of them for you.

Note that the following information is from a book by Professor David Kretchmer of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The book is titled: “The Legal Status of Israeli Arabs”.

Israel’s declaration of independence states that Israel was created as a home for the Jewish people, first and foremost. The declaration puts emphasis on the Jewish identity rather than the political structure of a democracy. From that period onwards, Israel’s laws have relied heavily on this declaration. In article 7A of the Israeli statute law it states that the Knesset prohibits the participation in the elections to the Knesset any party that “Rejects Israel as a state for the Jewish people” or those that “Reject the democratic nature of the state.”

In 1980 the Israeli Supreme Court passed a law stating that in the event that an Israeli court was unable to reach a decision based on legal precedence or comparison they should refer to the heritage of the nation of Israel (i.e. Jewish history)

Another law, which dates back to 1980, restricts legal marriages to Jews only. In other words, a Jewish man or woman can not marry a non-Jew and enjoy the recognition of the state as a legal and valid marriage.

The state flag of Israel has its basis in a 1948 law that borrows its design from the “Talit” bearing the Star of David. The same applies to the Menorah which is a religious Jewish symbol used as the state’s seal. The same goes for the national anthem, "Hatikvah”.

State owned lands can not be sold to non-Jews. 19% of state owned land is managed and administered by the National Jewish Fund whose mission statement includes a clause prohibiting the sale of land to non-Jews.

The following is merely a sample of discrimination relating to land distribution and ownership:

During the 50s and the 60s, lands owned by non-Jews where confiscated to build what later became “Natsrat Elite” (Upper Nazareth) and “Karmiel”. Non-Jews (Arabs) where prohibited from purchasing houses in these two cities. In 1976 alone, the Israeli government confiscated 1500 acres of Non-Jewish owned land to “Develop the Galilee”.

In 1969 and 1977 two state laws where passed in regards to searches and civilian aviation under which security officials can search anyone they please if they are regarded as a threat to national security. And, in fact, based on documented cases Israeli Arabs (i.e. Non-Jews) are stopped and searched prior to boarding an airplane while their Jewish counterparts are not subject to the same scrutiny. In essence, Non-Jews are treated as a national security threat.

Jewish schools run by the government (i.e. public schools) are granted higher budgets than those in non-Jewish towns and cities. In addition, every school in the non-Jewish sector has to get approval from the Ministry of Education prior to employing a non-Jew as a teacher. Non-Jewish teachers are subject to a “security clearance”, that is to say that if they are politically active that they will not be granted permission to teach. -- Anonymous 00:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• None of which indicates Israel is not a democracy, so move right along. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1. "Israel’s declaration of independence..." - Yes, and that stems from the country being "a Jewish, Democratic state". Quite obvious, nothing special here.
2. "In 1980 the Israeli Supreme Court..." - If you can't make a decision on legal ground, might as well turn to Jewish law and heritage. There's a wealth of information there, giving a lot of food for thought. Mind you, that Jewish law doesn't have any power here, the law just directs the judges to take a look at Jewish heritage. They can look - and ignore it, go read some philosophy book and decide based on that. It's purely a symbolic gesture.
3. "Another law, ...restricts legal marriages" - No, not really. You misunderstand the book, or the book is badly written (or translated). Israel doesn't have an institution of civil marriage. That is, only religious marriage is legally valid, but those can be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, or any other. Thus, people of different religions do face some difficulty in marriage, but that goes for all of them, like a Muslim trying to marry a Christian. Note, that Israel has Common-law marriage, which grants pretty much the same rights as marriage, and applies to everyone (including gay couples, by the way).
4. "The state flag of Israel..." - Yea, well, the flag of all Scandinavian nations has a large cross in it - an obvious Chrisitian symbol. Are they, too, not democracies? Does the presence of said cross discriminate against people of other religions?
5. "State owned lands can not be sold to non-Jews" - Again, you're wrong. State owned lands can be sold to anyone. There is some difficulty with land owned by the JNF, as that was a private organization, collecting money from world Jewry to purchase lands for Jews. There's a supreme court ruling to stop that practice anyway.
6. Security - Since Israel is under serious terrorist threats and attacks, some measures were needed. Are those measures being abused by some? Maybe. Is that governmental discrimination - not at all.
7. Airplanes - the security staff make their own calls, and sometimes they're wrong. But bear this in mind - no Jews go on planes and abduct them or blow them up. Some Muslims do. So where is the greater threat? okedem 09:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

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Gordon, please refrain from being hostile. If the topic makes you uncomfortable or you don't like the facts as they are, you're more than welcome to not participate in the discussion. Don't you find it strange that the only person who has been civil so far is the person who is at least TRYING to put forth an argument, I'm talking about Okedem. You on the other hand...well...I'll leave it at that.

Okedem,

By definition, a democracy should treat all its citizens equally and be a government by the people. Can you say the same about Israel?

1. "Go read some philosophy book". I don't appreciate the condescending tone.

2. "No, not really. You misunderstand the book, or the book is badly written (or translated)".

Actually, that's hardly the case. The book is written by a well respected professor of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. The book is written in Hebrew, my native language. I don't think I misunderstood it. Can you cite a source that backs up your argument? Why is it when a baby is born to a Jewish mother he is immediately registered in the Ministry of Interior as a Jew? When a baby is born to a Christian or Muslim mother, they usually ask the mother as to the baby’s religion.

3. "Security - Since Israel is under serious terrorist threats and attacks, some measures were needed. Are those measures being abused by some? Maybe. Is that governmental discrimination - not at all."

Those measures are a POLICY that no one within the government is willing to address or discuss. There are documented cases of non-Jews facing discrimination at airports. It's a pattern and a trend that indicates a policy. Besides, airport security is made up of government employees, are they not? The Shin Bet agents who supervise these employees are government employees, are they not?

4. "Airplanes - the security staff make their own calls, and sometimes they're wrong.”

The security staff is sometimes wrong? Must you downplay these discriminatory practices? (See #3)

"But bear this in mind - no Jews go on planes and abduct them or blow them up. Some Muslims do."

So you're saying that it's ok for Israel to profile non-Jews simply because of the political situation? We're discussing a principle here, the principle of democracy and equality, not "well, considering the political climate we live in.....". You can't have your cake and eat it. Israel can either be a democracy, or not.

Also, you said, "some Muslims do". What about those cases of Christian Arabs facing the same discrimination as their Muslim counterparts? I would say the discrimination is against non-Jews, not just those who "pose a threat", as Israeli government pundits would put it.

6. You did not respond to the "teachers and budgets" part in my previous post. -- Anonymous

1. I wasn't being condescending, I was saying the judges can "Go read some philosophy book" and decide based on that, they don't have to consider the Jewish laws.

2. Your original claim is false. You said "Another law, which dates back to 1980, restricts legal marriages to Jews only." - That's completely false, and you should know that. Muslims can marry, Christians can marry, Druze can marry. If you mean that inter-religious marriage is a problem, that's true, but it's a problem for everyone here, not just Arabs. But, since international marriage is recognized, and there's the common-law marriage thing, it's not too bad. About asking the mother - whatever. Why is that even important? So they ask the mother, she can say whatever she wants. That sound like discrimination against Jews, if anything.

3,4. I'm willing to live with the profiling, as thanks to it no Israeli airplanes get kidnapped, blown up, or flown into sky scrappers. I don't like it, but I do think there's a good reason for it. There are abuses in some cases, but they're not government policy, just bad decisions (yes, government employees can make bad calls).

6. I don't respond to claims I know too little about.

Let's make one thing clear here - I'm responding to your claims because I think false information needs to be corrected (you still haven't shown the "countless laws in place favoring Jews"). Even if all your claims were true, Israel would still be a democracy. okedem 09:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

History of Israel's Borders

I was trying to direct someone else to a series of maps depicting Israel's changing borders -- either claimed or actually enforced -- and found nothing here, really, except by wading through the WikiAtlas collection. I'm taking about 1948 vs. 1967 vs. 1995, etc. I don't know whether it should be part of the main Israel article or a separate article linked to this one, but I'm willing to bet someone has the necessary information or visuals at their fingertips. (Hint, hint, . . .) --Michael K. Smith 16:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Religious Basis For Israel

I do not have a huge amount of Knowledge of Jewish religious history, or motives for Zionism and general return to Israel, but I think it would be good if this article explained in greater detail religious motives (if there are any) for return to Israel. Disagree with me if you feel this is sufficiently explained. I however think this should be put in a NPOV way which in my opinion considerable amounts of the article are not placed in. This would be either by showing both points of view for and against technical religious reasons for Israel. E.g. one point of view maybe that the Jewish people were displaced centuaries ago by the babalonians and that they have rights to the country, and the other point of view would be along the lines of that in Jewish texts the babalonian invasion was a punishment by G-d for disobeying Israel, and that the return to Israel would happen only with the coming of the messiah. Or possibly a secular or atheist point of view which states that Zionism is out of place in todays society. Or simply just by giving a general overview with neither point of view, which explains basic refrences to Israel in Hebrew scripts. If you feel the article explaisn this enough then disagree with me, or that the Jewish migration to Israel was non-religious and simply to avoid persecution, however since many politicians in Israel follow a religious line (for publicity reasons or otherwise) I personally belive the religious reasons shoudl be explained.-S.M

I think that what you are looking for is in the articles on Zionism and Religious Zionism. As the first of these articles makes clear, there are both religious and non-relgious foundations for Zionism. 6SJ7 17:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Okedem, Please explain you deletion/objection

Of the first part of this sentence:

Though its exact borders remain undefined [1] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west.Tiamut 14:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Simple. Israel isn't just "located" between these countries. It borders them. The existence of border disputes doesn't change that. A border isn't just one defined by a peace treaty, or whatever, it's the limit between two countries. Right now, you pass from Israeli jurisdiction to Syrian jurisdiction on the Golan Heights - so that's the border.

The borders with Egypt and Jordan are agreed borders, determined by the peace treaties.

Lebanon - Israel has withdrawn to the international border, recognized by the UN. Even if changes are made to the border (like in Har Dov - Shebaa Farms), the sentence "Israel borders Lebanon to the north" would still be just as true.

Syria - Again, even if the Golan is returned to Syria, the sentence "Israel borders Syria to the east" would be just as true.

"Palestine" - No such state currently exists, so no such borders. Should it be established, we can update the article. A border, mind you, is with a sovereign body, not with "territories" (besides, if it borders "Palestine", where the occupation?). okedem 17:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, since your arguments are just as valid (or invalid) both ways, why aren't you changing the wording on the Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt articles? okedem 17:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The major difference Okedem is that Syria is not engaged in a military occupation of land that the international community says it should not be sitting on. You cannot ignore that the West Bank lies between Jordan and Israel and that its status is not finalized. Nor can you ignore that Gaza lies between Israel and Egypt and that its status is also unclear. I think the formulation I have proposed is very fair. It is backed by a reliable source and I am willing to provide more. I find it odd that even the most basic statements of fact cannot be introduced into the Israel article without being deleted, even when reliably sourced and relevant to the topic at hand. It's as though this page operates under a different set of Wiki policies altogether. It's very very saddening. Tiamut 07:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Your claims are just false. A border is not just an internationally recognized one, but a de facto one, and the borders listed are the de-facto borders of Israel. Even if you wanted to list the international border Syria, the wording "Israel borders Syria to the east would by just as true. And what's your problem with the Lebanese border? It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, and it IS an internationally recognized border.

There is no such country as "Palestine", so there could no border. It's really just as simple. Right now, Israel is the sovereign in the territories, not anyone else. You can't border non-sovereign military-occupied territories. If and when their status changes, I'll be more than happy to reflect that change here. Until then...

Your source doesn't even matter here - we're not disputing the facts, but the phrasing.

"Different rules"? You are the one applying different rules here. If the borders aren't defined, you should be changing the formulation on the articles I listed, but you're not. okedem 08:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I realize this topic is a sensitive one for you, but you should be able to put aside your nationalistic sentiments and focus on the facts. And if I haven't added this information to the Syria and Lebanon articles yet, its because I haven't yet looked at them. I am a member of the Palestine and Israel Wikiprojects not those of Syria and Lebanon. Here are more reliable sources discussing the ambiguity in Israel's border situation:

1) Ehud Olmert began building a coalition after winning Israel's election on promises to declare a final border for Israel even as the militant group Hamas assumed control of the Palestinian government

2) The second phase of the plan, which was formally accepted by both Israelis and Palestinians, calls for a declaration of an independent state even before final borders are agreed upon between both sides

3) Olmert will ask for U.S. endorsement of the plan that now defines him as a leader, a plan under which Israel would withdraw unilaterally from the heart of the West Bank to a line approximating the security barrier it has been building, and declare that to be the country's final border

4) ...in a country where politics revolve over terror attacks and undefined borders

5) Israel enjoys all aspects of jurisdiction in these areas and is, thus, fully responsible as the occupying power. The spatial definition of all these areas remains ambiguous

So as you can see, the issue of Israel's borders and the ambiguity surrounding where exactly they lay is an important and relevant issue. I believe my edit alludes to this without getting heavily into the specifics, which are better discussed in the body. However, for the introduction to imply that there are borders, when in fact, Israel has never declared its borders, is totally misleading and unencyclopedic to boot. Tiamut 10:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, quit it with "nationalistic sentiments", or "sensitive topic". I'm talking facts here.

Even your links talk about "final borders", meaning there are current borders - which is what we talk about. When they change - we'll talk about that. Again I state, Israel's borders with Egypt and Jordan are finalized, by agreement. Israel has withdrawn in 2000 to what the UN recognizes as its border with Lebanon. So those borders are recognized. There is no ambiguity where the border lies in the Golan - Israel controls the Golan now. Syria wants Israel to withdraw to the international border, from the current border (which is the armistice line).

There are no other states involved, so now other borders. Simple. You can't have a border with a non-sovereign entity.

You're trying apply different criteria to Israel, from any other country. Go look at other country articles, countries with border disputes, like India and Pakistan, and you'll see they all use the same phrasing - border, not "located". okedem 10:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So, where are the current borders Okedem? If you are so sure that they do indeed exist, you should have no problem providing a reliable source that states where they lie exactly. Further, you are ingnoring that at least one of the five sources uses the term "undefined" borders which means there are no currently defined borders, which support the phrasing of my edit which said: Though its exact borders remain undefined [2] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. This is a factual statement. What you are offering is in return is WP:OR analysis. Tiamut 11:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the five sources you brought? So, that gives my view a majority, using your sources. Thanks.

You seem to refuse to reply to what I said about Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria.

And Let me ask you this - how do you define a border? okedem 12:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you read Okedem? Nowhere in the articles I cited does it say that Israel's current borders are defined. That's what you need to support your claim that Israel does indeed have defined borders which is what you formulation implies ("It borders Lebanon here and Syria there, etc., etc.) You are purposely misleading the reader by ignoring the evidence in front of your eyes. The other sources I gave you state clearly that there are no "final borders". If the borders are not final, then they are not currently defined. Two of the sources explicitly support the idea that they fully undefined, one actually using that exact term and the other the more diplomatic "spatially ambiguous" (i.e. undefined). Further, since you seem to be having difficulty understanding, there are these sources:

Israel is the only country in the world with undeclared borders.

Israel is the only country in the world that has never declared or demarcated its borders.

These actually up the ante a bit, moving past undefined to undeclared altogether. Now, I expect that there will be a note reflecting this reality in the introduction. After all, the intro currently claims its the only country in the Middle East that is democracy, why not state the other fact about Israel in relation to other countries. It is the only one never to declare or demarcate its borders. i.e. they remain undefined. I think my edit was very diplomatic actually considering what the situation actually is. Tiamut 13:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

As okedem said before, it is you Tiamut who seems to be focusing on political and nationalistic statements instead of focusing on facts. The fact is, Israel borders Syria to the northeast. It does not matter whether the border is not defined, or even whether it's having or not having the Golan Heights on the Israeli side. Even if you go by the internationally recognized border, which has Golan in Syrial, Israel still borders it to the northeast. Same with all other cases except Gaza and the West Bank. You could say that Israel borders the Gaza strip if you stretch the meaning of border to include non-sovereign territories, but Israel definitely does not border the West Bank, because at least part of it is under Israeli sovereignty, under the Oslo agreements, so you have no point there. 'Status to be determined' does not mean it's suddenly another country's territory. Parts of the West Bank belong to the Palestinian Authority, this is a fact, but I don't think writing 'Palestinian Authority-controlled territories are spread out in enclaves within the West Bank' is relevant here. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, Tiamut. You just keep evading.

First off, talking about "final borders" means there are currently borders, but they're not final - that's why we add the word "final", to differentiate between the current borders and the final ones. I know where the border is - it's where there's a nice fence, and soldiers telling me to go away, before I enter Syria and get shot. Is it the final border, or the legal border, or the legitimate border, or the "right" border? Maybe not, but it's reality.

Second, Israel's borders with Jordan and Egypt are final and defined - why do you keep avoiding that? There's a peace treaty, it's final, it's not gonna change.

Third, there a UN recognized international border with Lebanon - if it's good enough for the UN, should be good enough for you.

Fourth, Syria - regardless of which border we want to accept, the current one, the international line, the 1967 line, or something else, the sentence "Israel borders Syria on the east" remains fully true, as it doesn't specify exactly where the border is.

Fifth, now, it's true that Israel didn't define what it wants its borders to be, but that's irrelevant. We write about reality, not some political vision, or some doubtful future. By the way, Syria and Lebanon never bothered demarcating the border between them - how about that?

Sixth, what are these sites you linked? They seem completely non-notable.

Seventh, the PA is not sovereign. Israel is the sovereign in the territories, as the military occupier, under international codes relating to occupied territories. The PA is an administrative body, not a sovereign one, which has been given some responsibilities and powers in some regions. The sovereignty over the area remains Israeli.

And I ask you again - what is your definition of border? okedem 14:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's review once again:

• The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs:Israel enjoys all aspects of jurisdiction in these areas and is, thus, fully responsible as the occupying power. The spatial definition of all these areas remains ambiguous.

• James Petras, Professor Emeritus of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, from his book, The Power of Israel in the United States:Israel is the only country in the world with undeclared borders.

• M. Shahid Alam, professor of economics at Northeastern University, Boston, author of the book, Poverty from the Wealth of Nations: Israel is the only country in the world that has never declared or demarcated its borders.

• Salon.com: ...in a country where politics revolve over terror attacks and undefined borders ...

and something new to consider, since you claim these are somehow unreliable sources:

• Professor Yaron Ezrahi of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who says that: a central problem is the undefined borders between the Israeli state and the Arab state. "No historians or religious leaders could agree what precisely were the borders of Israel ... Israel became a borderless entity" ... "In a normal country, the army is responsible for the security of external enemies and the police is supposed to deal with internal conflicts ... but in Israel, we don't know exactly what is internal and what is external, and it's a very unhealthy situation."

Now how would you like to add this information to the article. Do you prefer my formulation? Though its exact borders remain undefined, [3] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west.

or do you have another formulation in mind? And Okedem, if you don't know what a border is, how can you possibly claim know that Israel's are defined? Tiamut 15:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, as long as you don't address okedem's and my concerns as we have addressed yours, there isn't much space for additional argument. Also, please stop quoting reliable sources out of their area of expertise, as you did with James Petras, who is an expert on Latin America, not Israel. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 15:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, I'm sick of this. I explained my view, in depth, point by point. You refuse to respond to even one of my sentences. You evade every single thing I say, and twist my words to suite your purpose. What's the point? Is there a problem with Israel's borders? Sure. But does that prevent us from stating that "It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west."? No, because those statements are all true. Unless you bother responding to my earlier points, I don't see the point of this. okedem 15:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like we need a RfC then. I have provided you with a number of reliable sources that state that Israel's borders are undefined and undeclared. You have failed to provide even one that says that they are defined and where they are located. I don't think the six words that I want to add to the introduction ("Though its borders remain undefined") are so offensive that they warrant such resistance, particularly in the face of anywhere between 5 to 10 reliable sources stating that this is the case. You do not seem to want to abide by WP:NPOV which states that all significant viewpoints must be represented. You have not even offered a compromise formulation or made a gesture to incorporate this information into the body of the article. I'd say that the view of those cited here that Israel's borders are undefined or undeclared is significant enough to warrant inclusion in this article. Perhaps others will agree, perhaps not. We'll just have to wait and find out. Tiamut 16:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, Tiamut, what we need is for you to bother addressing the points I've raised, instead of going on and on about "undefined", as if no one said anything. You keep ignoring what we say, and that's simply unacceptable. okedem 17:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I think I have responded to most of the points you have raised. Perhaps I'm missing something though. In any case, it can't hurt to ask others what they think. Tiamut 17:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've given a list of points. You haven't addressed any of them. I gave it again. You ignored it again. okedem 17:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I could say exactly the same thing, but I don't think this kind of tit-for-tat is going to help us break this deadlock. Why don't we just step back for a minute and let others comment since we don't seem to making any headway on our own? Tiamut 17:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm new to wikipedia and don't have my own account yet, but I agree with both the points put forward above me, Israel, from whatever point of view of looking at it, (and I am definetly no pro-Israel type) borders the countries Okedem put forward, even if the terriotory which is not considered legal is removed from the equation.There is no point in disagreeing with this because the only way to change what countries Israel borders would be to create some new ones (out of the occupied terriotories) or to move Israel. On the other hand Tiamut adresses a valid issue, it is not really acceptable just to write as though the borders are defined, universally accepted, and non fluctuating. The truth is, being represented by the U.N. most countries disagree with the borders currently set by Israel, although Okedem what you say about bodering Syria, Lebanon etc is all true, what YOU seem to evade is the question of the actuall positioning oof the borders, whether Israel borders Syria closer to, or further away from Israel proper. The truth is these borders are undefined, and the way the article is written it seems these are universally accepted and permanent borders, and that the borders of the occupied areas are the borders of Israel. This may or may not be on purpose, but nevertheless I think it is important that something like Tiamut's sentence is put in to show, at least, Israel's true borders are disputed and not accepted by some, weather they are rightly disputed is a matter of opinion but it is not a matter of opinion that they ARE disputed, and by standing in the way of using that simple sentence Okedem you seem to be deliberately obstructive, but maybe you are not.

Basically in a summary what I'm saying is Okedem writes the truth, though not the whole truth, and by not writing all points of view it ould give someone who knows nothing about these borders misleading information about Israel and its legality of borders in international law. Obviously this is an exagerration and the occupied territories themselves are not considered countires (though their ownership is disputed) but on a bigger scale it my be a bit like saying Russia is to the east of America India is to the West, therefore implying to some degree America directly borders Russia and India without any counter argument. I dont think there should be any problem with adding a bit more information in, even Okedem if you don;t believe it is neccessary it cannot do any harm to the article.

Many countries have border disputes, yet they are not mentioned in the lead. The point of that sentence is not to discuss the exact legal status of Israel's borders, but just to say which countries it borders, which it currently accomplishes quite well. Going into every little detail would be too much for the lead.

I'm not evading "the question of the actual positioning of the borders" - I've stated it several times - no matter what we treat as the border with Syria - the current one, the international one, or the 1967 line - the sentence "border Syria to the east" is just as true.

Saying Israel's borders are disputed, or undefined, would be misleading. As demonstrated on this page, most of Israel's borders (Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon) are defined and internationally recognized.

So, what do we have now? The territories. A problematic issue, as borders are with countries, not with territories. I've already said I wouldn't mind saying "Israel controls parts of the West Bank" (or something like that) in the lead, right after the border sentence, but I won't agree to a phrasing that makes Israel's borders seem completely amorphous and undefined, because that's simply untrue. I also won't agree to the "located between..." phrasing, which is just terrible, and seems to be unprecedented on wiki articles. okedem 22:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm yes your right, many countries do have border disputed, though generally not to the extent of Israel's which have been the direct or indirect of several wars in Israel's history, and even if there are countires with border problems that rival Israel's (whether correctly or incorrectly) they are not to the same extent in the media spotlight. To ignore the fact that outside Israel many countries are at least unclear over Israel's current borders (in terms of distance from Israel proper) is slightly misleading as it might imply that the territotories Israel presides over are part of one country, or at best little more than certain provinces. I understand that you do not wish to get dragged into these issues of Israel vs. world opinion., good or bad, but the borders are disputed. As I mentioned before the wording you used if completly correct, Israel does border those countries where you say it does, but more information on the borders of Israel is probably required, even if it is just half a sentence. The turth of the matter is Israel borders the counties where you say it does (the west, the east etc) but it is unclear Italic texthowItalic text it borders these countries, this may raise uneccesary questions, but I think maybe adding something like. Israel borders

... etc, etc. though whether the borders of the territory Israel controls are Israel's borders, or The borders recognised by the UN are Israel;s borders is currently the subject of much dispute.

As I've said before, Israel's longest borders, with Egypt and Jordan, are not in any dispute. Its border with Lebanon is recognized by the UN, so no real dispute there. Only border remaining is the one with Syria, which is also clear (the current border), though probably not final. I see no need to go into detail about this right in the lead.

With the Palestinians - you've seen my suggestion. There is no current border, since there's no Palestinian state - no sovereign body to border. okedem 14:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Okedem here is a lengthy list of countries that recognise palestine as a state, or at least a pseudo-state, some of it is slightly factually dated and possibly innacurate (e.g. Yugoslavia) but as wikipedia is an encylopidia on the WORLD wide web, and an article about Israel should not be written from an Israeli standpoint, then you'll surely understand that there is enough dispute (within other countries of the world) to consider that any border with a theorectical or practical state of Palestine is disputed. Here are the list of countries that (with some degree of error but laregly accurate) consider Palestine a state in one form or another (borrowed form the state of plaestine section)...

Africa: Algeria, Angola, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros (fr As), Republic of the Congo (fr As), Democratic Republic of the Congo (fr As), Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Libya, Madagascar, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mauritius, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe. Americas, Cuba, Nicaragua. Asia: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei (fr. Af), Cambodia, China (PRC), India, Indonesia, Korea (DPRK), Laos, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Turkey (fr Eu), Vietnam. Europe: Albania, Austria, Belarus Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Hungary, Malta, Poland, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Vatican City, Yugoslavia (but not present-day Serbia and Montenegro). Mid-East: Bahrain, Egypt (fr Af). Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman (fr Af), Qatar, Saudi Arabia(fr Af), United Arab Emirates(fr Af), Yemen,

Feel free to do whatever you like to it once you've seen it (delete it because of its length?) but basically what im saying is therotically in internation terms there is a possible dispute of bordering a state of Palestine which (in my humble opinion) should be noted.

Request for Comment

The dispute is over whether or not to include this sentence in the introduction of the Israel article: Though its exact borders remain undefined, it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. Currently, the article reads: It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. [4] A number of sources have been provided by one editor to support the claim that Israel’s borders are undefined and/or undeclared . Examples of these sources include: [5], [6] [7] [8] [9]. Two editors reject the relevance and/or reliability of those sources. Your comments would be appreciated. For those who require more information, review the section above the RfC where the discussion began here: [10].17:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Petras? He goes on and on about the Jews' power and wealth in the US, how they caused the first and second Iraq wars (oh, I guess oil had nothing to do with it), that because of them the US supported Israel's "illegal wars of aggression against Lebanon..." (oh, Hizbollah didn't cross the international border, killed several soldiers and captured two more, Israel wasn't attacked, sure). And he goes on and on. This guy has no more credibility than any crazy anti-Semite. He's not worth notice. okedem 17:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Okedem, please don't poison the well. If you have reliable sources that accuse Petras of anti-Semitism, by all means bring them forward. But I think that this is a very bad way to start what should be a conciliatory process to build consensus to find a solution to this dispute. Tiamut 17:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying he's an anti-semite. I'm saying he's not credible, and definitely not a reliable source. okedem 17:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you say that? --Guinnog 17:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've read what he said. He's bent on making the Jews and Israel look bad, regardless of reality. In his world, things are either black, or white, and complex issues have a single cause - the Jews/Israel. You're either good - Lebanon/Palestinians, or bad - Jews/Israel. That's ridicules. okedem 17:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I recommend taking a look here: Talk:James Petras. okedem 17:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Petras is not a reliable source because he is not an expert on Israel or the Middle East, but instead on Latin America. Similarly, Noam Chomsky isn't a reliable source because he's an expert in linguistics, not politics. I frankly couldn't care less about either of their views on Israel. If they were experts on Israeli/Middle Eastern politics, history, etc. (such as for example Benny Morris, as much as it pains me to say this), they'd be reliable sources. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a red herring. If Okedem thinks Petras is not a reliable source and wants to poison the well by intimating that he's an anti-Semite, he is free to do that. But it doesn't address the issue here, nor does address the reliability or relevance of the other four sources provided here (not to mention the other five+ in the section above). Are the views of the professor from Hebrew University and the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs not credible, and not reliable as well? Tiamut 19:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It indeed isn't the main issue, but you won't address any of the points that are, so what else can I do? okedem 20:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

As for your sources - first link's dead, second is Petras, third is devoted to saying Israel is bad, and gets the facts wrong, fourth and fifth clearly talk about a future border with a Palestinian state. Nothing interesting here.

I've corrected the first link, so it awaits your examination. The Petras link I don't want to discuss with you any further. Your objections to the third, fourth and fifth links ar, however, rather poorly articulated. I'd appreciate it if you would expand. Tiamut 22:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for your answers to the points about the surrounding countries, the problem of no-sovereignty of the PA, and your definition of border. okedem 21:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

As for your surrounding countries point, I already answered it, please review the section above. And I don't need to define border. The sources I have provided already do. Tiamut 22:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

(back to the topic) I'm pretty sure it is a fact that Israel's borders are not defined. If somebody disputes this, I would very much be interested in an official definition of Israel's borders, which I'm pretty sure does not exist. However, I don't think this fact (assuming it is a fact) belongs in the introduction. This legal anomaly is not one of the most important things the reader needs to know about Israel, and can be addressed in the relevant section in the article body.

As for its relations with its neighbors, I'm not a native English speaker, but I think there's a distinction between border (noun) and border (verb). The former may imply a legal status, while the latter seems less restricted or loaded. I think one can say that two countries border (verb) each other even if the border (noun) is not well-defined. Until recently, Yemen's border with Saudi Arabia was not defined, but I don't think that would have prevented one from saying "Yemen is bordered by Saudi Arabia". Furthermore, I don't think the usage of border (verb) requires the neighboring entity to be a state. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that Israel is bordered by the West Bank. I'd even mention that it borders on the Mediterranean. How about using a less loaded term, such as neighbor or adjoin?--Doron 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree for the most part. However, saying Israel borders the West Bank is also politically loaded because Israel occupies the West Bank, therefore making it impossible to border it. That is at least according to the left side of the political spectrum. If you go right, you will hear the opinion that the West Bank (either parts or its entirety) is within Israel, therefore also making it impossible for Israel to border the West Bank. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of political inclinations, I don't think you can say that the West Bank is part of Israel. It may be under Israeli occupation or control or whatever, but there's no dispute that it is not part of Israel's sovereign territory, and there's no dispute that it is adjacent to Israel, so yes, I think Israel can be said to border it. Israel is occupying (or controlling) a territory it borders on.--Doron 22:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Questions for Tiamut

I think that in order to resolve this dispute, we need to stop evading each other's concerns. I think the easiest way to do this is to ask the other side a few relevant direct questions to which they'd have to answer in order for their argument to have more weight. Here are my questions for Tiamut:

1. Do you agree that Israel's borders with Egypt and Jordan are both defined and internationally recognized? If so, why do you still insist that these are not borders, and, assuming the other borders are indeed undefined, do you still agree that Israel has partially defined borders?

• Do you have a source that says that Israel's borders with Egypt and Jordan are defined and internationally recognized? If so, we can begin to discuss this issue. Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Do you agree that Israel's border with Lebanon, except a small area (Shebaa farms) is agreed on by both sides and internationall recognized? If so, how does that differ from defined borders with border disputes, such as Russia's or India's border disputes with China?

• Do you have a source that says that Israel's border with Lebanon is agreed by both sides and internationally recognized? If so, we can begin to discuss this issue.Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Do you agree that the Palestinian Territories are not a sovereign entity? If so, do you agree that defined borders must be between sovereign entities? If not, please provide a source for Palestinian Territories being a sovereign entity with any borders at all (whether clearly or ill-defined).

• Do you have a source that says that the Palestinian territories are not a sovereign entity? If so, do you have a source that says that defined borders must be between sovereign entities? Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Do you agree that whether Israel's border with Syria is to the west or the east of the Golan Heights, Syria is still East of Israel and has border crossings with Israel, which de facto makes it border Israel?

• Do you have a source that says that Israel's border with Syria is both defined and internationally recognized? Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Do you agree that de facto borders and not utopian political visions are also considered borders for all intents and purposes?

• Do you have a source that says where Israel's declared and internationally recognized borders lie? Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut (and anyone else on Tiamut's side of the argument): I'd appreciate if you answered these questions point by point. Feel free to ask okedem or myself whatever relevant questions you have in mind. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

What's interesting here is that the way that Wikipedia policy works is that the editor inserting material needs to provide a reliable source to back up their edit. I have provided over 5, while Okedem and yourself and have provided a grand total of zero to support your position. But to humor you, I have answered your questions above anyway. Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You do not need to go far to find sources for established facts. For example, here you can read about Israel's border with Egypt, which, according to the 1979 peace treaty, would be the former border of Egypt with Mandate Palestine, after an Israeli withdrawal from Sinai. These borders were defined in agreements following World War I. Here you can find a clear definition of the Israel-Jordan border, as agreed in the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty of 1994. Here you can read about the Israel-Lebanon armistice line, which is internationally recognized (in-depth look, clearly states that it's an internationally recognized armistice line, but not a defined international border).

Do you have a source that says that Israel's border with Syria is both defined and internationally recognized? You obviously haven't read the question.

In any case, I have provided a few sources for you to read and ponder. Please stop evading legitimate questions.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The first source you provided says nothing about the border between Egypt and Israel being defined and internationally recognized. Israel wasn't around in WWI, so it had nothing to do with any border definitions that were made at that time and we are in 2007 right now.

The second source you provided only proves the point that Israel's borders remain undefined. IT says clearly, ""This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."

The third and fourth sources state that the border with Lebanon is an armistice line and not an international border.

Finally, I did read the question. The only relevant response was the question I gave you. It matters not that there is a border between Syria and Israel. What matters is whether por not is is clearly defined and declared. the sources I have provided you with insist that Israel's borders are neither defined nor declared. And three of the four sources you have provided me with support that position. Tiamut 22:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, you're not being serious.

The first source clearly speaks of the international boundary (see, for example, annex I, article II, 3). The second is even more obvious, being titled "Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation", "The boundary is delimited as follows:...", etc. About Lebanon, you can read here. okedem 05:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I am being quite serious. Your point, even if made (which I do not think it was), is entirely moot, since it would only establish that Israel has defined part of the border with Egypt, and does not address the undefined nature of the border with Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, and Jordan. Further, this World Bank source clearly states With the withdrawal of the Government of Israel (GOI) from the Philadelphi corridor in the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian Authority (PA) shares a border with Egypt. How can you insist on retaining the introduction's wording as is, in light of these facts? Doesn't this belie your earlier assertion that "only sovereign states" can share borders with others? And Okedem, you have yet to address the sources I have provided you with above. You keep evading the issue while accusing me of obfuscation. There are at least four reliable sources in the RfC section above that state clearly that Israel's borders are undefined, and one which states further that they are in fact undeclared. What Wikipedia policy are your objections to their inclusion based on exactly? Tiamut 09:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you ignoring what I just said about Jordan? It's just as defined.

The blue line (between Israel and Lebanon) is also recognized as the international border.

There is a border between Israel and Syria - it's where the fence and the soldiers are. It was determined by war. It may not be the final border, but it's the border now. There's also the international border, and the 1949 armistice line. All of them fully comply with the sentence "Israel borders Syria on the East".

Now, the Palestinians - that's more problematic. If we claim there's a border between Israel and the Palestinians, we can't very well claim there's an occupation, can we? okedem 12:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And just for fun, here are some pages using the term "current borders" - [11], [12], [13] (big anti zionist article!), [14].

By the way, Tiamut, I wouldn't mind mentioning the territories in the lead, right after the borders, something like: "It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. Israel also occupies parts of the West Bank." (or something similar). (Oh, wait. I shouldn't make such suggestions. They go against my "nationalistic sentiments"...) okedem 13:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Nomination Premature

• The article as is, is not factually accurate and verifiable.

The Culture of Israel section is very much lacking in sources, even in the main articles it links to, with the exception of the Education sub-section. The Zionism and Immigration, Economy, Judiciary, and Military sections also lack sources, as do the section 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.

• The article is not neutral and fails to represent viewpoints fairly and without bias.

There are a lack of sources for controversial claims:

"In a massacre in 1929, 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron were killed and 116 Arabs were killed in the riots."

"Many Arabs, opposed to the Balfour Declaration, the mandate, and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa, and Haifa. As a result of the 1921 Arab attacks, the Haganah was formed to protect Jewish settlements."

Further, sources cited do not fully support the formulations made:

"Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy, having a broad array of political rights and civil liberties present.[5][6]"

• The article is unstable due to the failure by editors to address ongoing issues.

There is still much unresolved controversy surrounding the designation of Jerusalem as a capital, and whether Israel is the "only liberal democracy in the Middle East", among other issues.

• I propose that the GA nomination be retracted until these issues can be dealt with. Tiamut 09:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to your opinion. However, please read WP:GA as to how good articles work. Thank you. -- Avi 02:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)