Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

August 4

More German questions

Resolved

1. What's the difference between "ihm" and "er"?
2. Can someone give me a better explanation of the word "gern" than Babelfish? Babelfish translates it as "gladly" but that just doesn't seem to fit the context exactly that I see "gern" used in. I thought it meant "enjoy" at first but that concept doesn't seem to always fit either.

Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 02:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(1) "Ihm" is dative case, "er" is nominative case. (2) "Gern" is an adverb that can indeed be translated literally as "gladly", but that translation isn't always the most idiomatic. Often the best way to translate "gern" is to say "like to" + the verb of the sentence. For example "Ich esse Käse gern", literally "I eat cheese gladly" = "I like to eat cheese"; "Ich schwimme gern", lit. "I swim gladly" = "I like to swim". If the verb is "haben", then "gern haben" is just "like": "Ich hab dich gern" = "I like you". —Angr 05:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 09:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

'Gestalt' as a verb in English

So I was reading Frank Herbert's Dune, and he uses 'gestalt' as a verb quite a few times. I know the German means 'shape' or 'form', and although I looked it up on this wiki I don't understand how it could be used in English. The example I remember is 'he gestalted the room'. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 05:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Having skimmed through Gestalt psychology, Gestalt therapy, and wikt:gestalt, I'm coming up empty. It's easy enough to "verb nouns"; I could imaging that "to gestalt a patient" would mean to treat him using gestalt therapy, but I have no idea how you would gestalt a room. Maybe it could mean something like to arrange the furniture in such a way as to focus on the holistic effect of the entire room? (Don't ask me how to do that, though!) Or maybe it means to walk into a room and get a general impression of the entire room at once rather than focusing on one person or object in the room? I'm really just guessing, of course. Knowing the context in which Herbert wrote "He gestalted the room" would help. —Angr 16:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My OED defines Gestalt as An organised whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts. If two rooms were divided buy a partition wall, perhaps you could remove the partition and gestalt a bigger room. - X201 (talk) 17:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe he meant that he perceived or understood the room in its entirety, rather than its individual components, like grok. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember that line, and I'd have thought I would've. Would you mind satisfying my curiosity by telling us when it occurs? Algebraist 23:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never come across gestalt used as a verb in English (till now, I mean). However, I've heard it in academic contexts as a rough equivalent for "the totality." (Business people like to use "synergy" for something similar, usually trying to convince themselves they can lay off people and still produce at least as much work.) I've also seen a bumper sticker: What part of gestalt don't you understand? OtherDave (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarityfiend nailed it. I was puzzled that the dictionary doesn't recognise "gestalt" as a verb, since that's the only way I use it and that's the way two others used it in conversation. Maybe it's a colloquialism? Why would a German word be a colloquialism in New England? This deserves a bit more sussing out. 25 August 2011

Translation from English into Gaelic

Can you translate a few common greetings into Gaelic? Such as;

• Good morning
• Hello
• Goodbye
• Welcome
• Thank you
• God speed.

This is my first ever request and I don't know what I'm doing, so any suggestions you can offer will be deeply appreciated.
Thanks and Sincerely, Mike Day of Delano —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.33.107.12 (talk) 05:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried Googling 'how to learn Gaelic'? A site like that would have the majority of common phrases. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 06:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Which Gaelic are you interested in, Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic? —Angr 06:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Or even Manx Gaelic -- Q Chris (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

One Scottish Gaelic site, with links. OtherDave (talk) 01:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Term of endearment?

What is the origin of the endearment 'chuck' frequently heard around Manchester? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.204.221 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find the answer at BBC - Manchester - Voices - The local lingo. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The Commonest Words in the English Language

Has anyone compiled a list please of, say, the commonest thousand words in use? I was thinking of Pitman shorthand 'busy six hundred' but have tried in vain to find a copy of it. I am aware of the Oxford English corpus top 100 words but was hoping for something larger. Excuse me if this is clearly included on Wikipedia - I have hunted in vain. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.221.196 (talk) 13:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested in the frequency lists at Wiktionary. —Angr 13:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see Most common words in English. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My Google search for "most common english words" resulted in a list of useful links to lists of various lengths. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this is the site you want. DAVID ŠENEK 17:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Shame about the interface, though. If there's a documented way to download the word list I didn't see it, but here's an undocumented way: first 301, next 301, next 301, etc. Another source which came to mind was Google's n-gram data from a huge corpus of web pages. Their unigram frequencies are surprisingly different from wordcount.org's: I, and, the, you, a, to, uh, that, it, of, know, yeah, in, they, uhhuh, have, but, so, it's, we, ... -- BenRG (talk) 00:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

About.com has a list 1000 Most Common Words in English Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hash symbol as number

Is is correct to use a hash symbol for a number, as in "His hit single reached #1 on the pop charts"? I was told that WP:MOS does not allow it. However, I cannot find the reference. Thanks, —Mattisse (Talk) 13:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see Number sign. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is that this article does not pertain to the WP:MOS. There is currently a conflict in a FAC nomination over whether # versus number is correct according to WP:MOSNUM. (I was trying to avoid the confusion (and usually lack of response) of trying to find out from the FAC people. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference desk isn't really the place to be asking questions about Wikipedia policy and style anyway. In the real world, yes, # is a symbol that stands for "number", as discussed in the article Number sign. Whether using it that way is acceptable at Wikipedia is a question for a different page, such as WT:MOSNUM. —Angr 16:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Thanks. I was trying to avoid asking the MoS people. Guess I will drop it. Thanks for your help. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Dutch Scrabble?

Hey i just wanted to know if theres a place i can get a list of all dutch words that would be acceptable for scrabble, ex: no proper nouns or any of that.

I found a long time ago some site that had links to different pages, each containing a space seperated list of all 3,4,5 etc letter words in english, for 2-10 letter words.

Its a little bit more difficult to find dutch for the following reasons:

1. I dont understand Dutch at ALL. 2. I spoke to a friend who is native and he said it would probably be difficult to find, as english is easy only because of its use around the world.

I don't need to understand the words, all i need is a list where there is separation between words so i can tell and be able to put it into my text editor and all that. Can anyone be of help? Thanks. :)

209.240.240.96 (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a site that lists all Dutch words, but it has nothing to do with scrabble. DAVID ŠENEK 17:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

At first glance a seemingly helpful find. however, i think their database is messed up?

http://woordenlijst.org/voorvoegsel/b/2 here you can see a list of words under the letter B? it says "21 - 40 uit 7984" at the top, which of course i assume to mean 21-40 of 7984.... so thats 20 words right? but theres only one on there. "baan·tje·rij·den, ww."

any more help? thx <3 209.240.240.178 (talk) 01:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be a bug. I don't see a way to get a full list of words there. DAVID ŠENEK 15:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

yayyyyy! i found one that works!

http://www.sil.org/americas/suriname/Rediman/National/RedimanNLDict.html

According to a dutch mate of mine, this list does have proper nouns, such as names of countries, so basically i need to grab a friend who would be kind enough to sort those out for me, but at least i have the list finally! I just thought it would be fun to make dutch boggle since i programmed an english boggle for irc and all the non native english people claim an unfair ballpark hehe ;D Thank you for your efforts David. It just took a while of searching i guess. cant remember how i bumped into this site but yeah problem solved! thanks again!

209.240.240.171 (talk) 03:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

IPA symbol - Portuguese

Hello. How can I produce the IPA symbol "w", with a tilde on it? That symbol is used all the time when accurately transcribing the Portuguese nasal diphthong "ão", and I need it to fix quite a few IPA transcriptions all over Wikipedia. Thanks. Húsönd 19:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Same for "j" with a tilde. Húsönd 19:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't mean turned m — "ɯ" (close back unrounded vowel) with a tilde? --Cam (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope, it's a "w" (used to transcribe e.g. "wash" in English), and a "j" (used to transcribe "yet"), with a tilde. I can't find those two IPA characters anywhere. We use them in Portuguese. Húsönd 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Here: w̃ j̃ - using combining characters. But I don't think there is a standard IPA diacritic for a tilde over a consonant. Are you _sure_ you don't want ɯ̃? Also, our portuguese phonology article says the proper transcription for ão is /ɐ̃ũ/ - do you have references to back up the use of these symbols? --Random832 (contribs) 20:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Using the symbols for semivowels to indicate the second member of diphthongs is very common. ão can be transcribed either /ɐ̃ũ/ or /ɐ̃w̃/ without any significant difference. Unicode points U+1E7C and U+1E7D are Ṽ, ṽ (V, v with a tilde). I'm not aware of any other precomposed characters of a tilde over a consonant letter. —Angr 21:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Except of course ñ, but that doesn't occur in phonetic transcription. —Angr 22:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Portuguese ão is a falling diphthong so it might accurately be transcribed as [ɐ̃ũ̯]. However, there's not much difference between [u̯] and [w] and the use of either depends a great deal on the whims of the transcriber so [ɐ̃w̃] seems pretty accurate despite being inconsistent with the way ao is being transcribed at various pages on Wikipedia. Also, AFAIK, the tilde diacritic can be used on any IPA character. At least, that's what our article on nasalization seems to say. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've studied linguistics for a few years in college and we would always transcribe the Portuguese nasal diphthongs as follows: ão>ɐ̃w̃, ãe>ɐ̃j̃, õe>õj̃. Always a vowel and a semi-vowel, both bearing a tilde. Thanks for teaching me how to create these characters. Maybe previous users encountered the same difficulty in producing them, thereby opting for a vowel instead of a semi-vowel substitute for the IPA diphthongs. Húsönd 21:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: I was relieved to discover that the article on Portuguese phonology on the Portuguese Wikipedia corroborates the correct IPA transcription of the Portuguese nasal diphthongs. Húsönd 21:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In Brazilian Portuguese at least (I don't know about European), [ ȷ̃ ] also occurs as an allophone of /ɲ/ in words like minha [ˈmĩȷ̃ɐ]. —Angr 22:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's worked a little on Portuguese phonology, I can assure you that using [u] rather than [w] was not the result of technical difficulties. See the talk page for the discussion regarding the diphthongs. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What does 'ffridd hafren primula' mean in Welsh?

It's my pony's Welsh name, would really like to know what it means!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.65.185 (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In Welsh? In Welsh it means 'ffridd hafren primula'. If you are asking what it means in English, then all I can say is that it has something to do with peace. --ChokinBako (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It reads "Mountain-pasture of the Severn Primula". Primula is not Welsh, but a Latin botanical name for the genus containing the primrose plants. The Welsh word for primrose is briallen. Strad (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone able to use the Devanagari script or even better read the Nepali language?

It would be helpful if someone can add the name in the Nepali language to Ma timi bina marihalchhu in the Devanagari script. I presume the name in this film poster at the top [1] is the name of the film given the similarities in colouring etc to the romanisation of the name so provided you have sufficient understanding of how to use the Devanagari script you could hopefully do it even without understanding what it says Nil Einne (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done. But the article's probably about to get deleted anyway. —Angr 05:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You may be right about the deletion. I wanted to see if searching for the name in Nepali found more results but it doesn't, not that it means much Nil Einne (talk) 09:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

August 5

"Young at Heart"

Would anyone happen to know a word that describes someone who is young at heart? Like, "Bob is _____(young at heart)____." Thanks for your help! 132.250.122.83 (talk) 12:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

young,youthful, childlike, childish, boyish, girlish, young-looking, vigorous, energetic, lively, enthusiastic, active, sprightly. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Somehow, I don't think "Bob is girlish" is going to convey quite the same meaning as "Bob is young at heart". —Angr 13:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you've assumed Bob is male, which is possible but not known. 79.66.32.107 (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Evergreen - X201 (talk) 13:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Cardialogically juvenile" ? :-) StuRat (talk) 01:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Temperamentally neotenous.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 12:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"I am" with past-perfect verbs

Is there a name for the grammatical construction which involves, for instance, saying "I am arrived" instead of "I have arrived"? And what are the differences in precise meaning and connotation between these two phrases, if any? An article here(I can't find it at the moment), gives "I am seen wonderful things" as the translation of a Basque sentence; how is that different from "I have seen..."? 207.233.84.97 (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The name I would use is 'archaic'. In older forms of English, forms of 'to be' could be used to form the perfect of unaccusative verbs, as in French and German, but this almost obsolete. It has never been grammatical with transitive verbs (again as in French), so 'I am seen' (as an active perfect) is ungrammatical at all stages of English. --ColinFine (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not really past tense in English to use a past participle. The usual formation of the present perfect is the present tense of to have followed by the past participle, for example 'you have played'. This usually suggests a present state that has been ongoing for some time. The combination of a form of 'to be' with the past participle is more rare in Modern English, it was formerly more common. It is retained for certain statives like 'she is finished', giving a sense of completion (perfective aspect) even though the state is only now achieved. The use of such a grammatical construction beyond this limited set of statives is now incorrect in Modern English. Thus, 'I am arrived' may have been popular in the past, especially in archaizing poetry, but is 'I have arrived' in Modern English. One can say 'I am seeing wonderful things' (progressive aspect) or 'I have seen wonderful things' (perfect aspect), but not 'I am seen wonderful things'. However, the passive voice is 'I am seen by wonderful things'. The usage of the past participle with 'to be' stems from its nature as an adjective. Other Germanic languages, like German, still use both 'sein' and 'haben' with past participles. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

ColinFine, I don't think I'm following your last example. Would this not be an example? The spy is reporting on his mission: "I have just entered the control room, when I am seen by the guard." (Other than this uncommon example, I certainly agree that I am (past-tense) is... past its prime. OtherDave (talk) 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

As Gareth says, 'I am seen' is completely grammatical - if a little unusual - in the sense that somebody sees me. It is ungrammatical as any kind of alternative or equivalent to 'I have seen'. --ColinFine (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks. Where's the coffee? OtherDave (talk) 01:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's not ignore the mention of the Basque sentence, which is probably meant to be an example of the ergative - so it may look like it says "I am seen wonderful things" but it doesn't actually mean that. Hopefully someone else can explain what the ergative actually is, since I don't quite get it. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

See recent and typically erudite discussion (with good links) at Languagehat. Note also that Slavic languages use their verb to be as an auxiliary in all compound active forms. Example in Serbian:

Ja sam pio rakiju.

= I [auxiliary, part of biti "to be", <> "am" or "have"] drunk raki.

= I drank raki.

That's what a male speaker would say. A female speaker would use the feminine form of the active participle:

Ja sam pila rakiju.

The participle must agree with the subject just as an adjective would. The passive participles are different in form, so though they also take forms of the verb "to be" as auxiliaries (with agreement in number and gender, as typically in other European languages like French and Italian) there is no confusion:

Ja sam brao jabuke.

= I [male] picked apples.

Ja sam brala jabuke.

= I [female] picked apples.

Oni su brali jabuke.

= They [male, or mixed] picked apples.

Jabuka je brana.

= [The] apple is picked.

Jabuke su brane.

= Apples are picked.

[Subject to correction of details. My Balkan is a bit rusty. :) ]

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 14:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Adam, my first reaction to your suggestion was 'there's no way "I am seen wonderful things" could render an ergative construction, but on reflection I think it might be an attempt to render a distinction in an ergative language. The point is that in an ergative language the same case (absolutive) is used for the object of transitives and the subject (patient) of intransitives. (I have seen this explained - wrongly - as 'all transitive verbs are passive). It may be that in some ergative languages verbs of sensing, like 'see' are treated as unergative, and the subject (patient) takes the absolutive. (Perhaps this is the case in Basque, I don't know). If so, one might imagine a misguided attempt to translate 'I see' by the passive 'I am seen', to convey that the subject is in the case normally associated with the direct object. --ColinFine (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Italian translation

Resolved

Can someone translate this sentence for me: "Vi sono soldi per cibo e caramelle nel portafoglio". Thanks --212.120.246.239 (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

With a little help from Google, I get "There is money for food and sweets in the wallet."--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Speeded or sped

Which is grammatically correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.159.153 (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• Both. According to wikt:speed, the British English convention is that "sped" is used for objects in motion (the race car sped up) while "speeded" is used otherwise, but American English doesn't make that distinction. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

So what does American English use? Speeded or sped or both are acceptable in any situation? --Lgriot (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for all Americans, but I use them specifically in different contexts. If the verb means "exceed the posted speed limit", I use speeded, as in she speeded, and got a ticket for it. If the verb simply means "go fast", then I use sped, as in the Road Runner sped across the desert. In particular, it's always sped up, never *speeded up. —Keenan Pepper 00:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. --Lgriot (talk) 06:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've thought about this in the past as well, and since "speeded" always sounds somehow wrong to me, I just avoid it entirely. In Keenan's sentence I would say "she was speeding...", so there is no past tense. Otherwise I agree with the usage of "sped". (I am Canadian if that matters.) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I am a AmEn speaker and also would not use "speeded" but I also find forms like pleaded and dived grating. Since those are widely used by television reporters, I suspect I may be in a minority on this. Rmhermen (talk) 13:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In America speeded vs sped is a regional thing. Marriam-Webster (American dictionary) recogizes both forms while the OED (British dictionary) recogizes speeded only as a form of the noun speed (not the verb). Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where you find that in the OED. It lists both 'speeded' and 'sped' as adjectives in particular senses; but it does not usually give different inflected forms of words (such as past tense forms) unless there is something remarkable about them. In any case I don't know what 'speeded' might be as a 'form of the noun speed'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

August 6

Can't be arsed/assed

Where does this unpleasant english phrase come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.159.153 (talk) 00:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it is crude. Here[2] it's used by seriously demotivated people who lazily shorten the phrase from "Can't be bothered to get of my arse... (to do something, fix something, ...)" -- likewise in the sense of being unwilling and there's a pun with "Can't be asked" (so why would you?). As some would say, it's a "No." As to its origins, I don't know. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Just hypothesising here, in a cheeky kind of way. Could it have some connection with "half-arsed"? Someone who does something in an unsatisfactory or inadequate manner is said to be guilty of doing it half-arsed. Maybe it has to do with their lack of motivation or energy, or maybe it's just plain laziness. Could it be that when they get so unmotivated that they can't bothered to do it at all, they go the whole hog (rump?) from half-arsed to arsed? Thinking laterally, might "half-arsed" also be related to going off "half-cocked"? And why is a person who does something well not said to have done it "cocked"? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Because at that point it's considered to be "at full cock (of a gun) with the cock lifted to the position at which the trigger will act". So it looks like being unprepared is worth more notice that someone who just gets the job done. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I think I know this one. A half cocked gun (flintlock variety) is unlikely to ignite the gunpowder properly and maybe give a slow burn therefore not doing the job properly. But I just cant be arsed to find any refs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.158.184 (talk) 13:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Half-cocked is the loaded safety position of a flintlock. If it goes off at half cock the weapon has dangerously malfunctioned when you were not expecting it. So "to act prematurely or without reflection or too soon".(WordNet) Rmhermen (talk) 13:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not the term arsed has been around for at least a millennium. The OED lists early forms appearing as early as c.1000. It is now used as (near exclusively course) slang and means "having an arse. (Chiefly in comb.) Usu. as a terminal element: half-arsed, smart-arsed, etc." Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I can easily believe the term 'arse' has been in use for over 1000 years, and that 'arsed' means having an arse; but why does 'cant be arsed' mean cant be botherd? Can anyone be arsed to give a proper answer?

I do believe Julia Rossi gave you an answer above. Can't you be arsed to read it? Corvus cornix_talk 18:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Arsed means terminal (ie end or short, often prematurely) thus to say "can't be arsed" can translate "can't be bothered" because literally you are saying can't bring to an end. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm really sorry, but I cant accept any of the above explanations because they do not ring true to me, but I cant be arsed to ask anything further on the subject. thank all respondents anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.167.200 (talk) 23:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You might not necessarily believe it, but I do believe that JackOfOz does have the correct answer: it's common practice to insert a taboo word in tongue-in-cheek fashion into a new phrase (I can name a few if you'd really like). You might like to know that I live in America, and I have never heard this phrase. On a separate matter: can anyone comment on the word "arse" for me? I never even knew this word existed until I went to Britain 7 years ago. How long has it been around? Did it disappear from America, or did it crop up from "ass" in the UK? (the latter possibility seems more likely to me). Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It might be an example of Schnitzel Syndrome (my term for a word that's mispronounced, and the spelling then often follows suit - "snitzel"). Americans pronounce arse as "ass", so their spelling has come to reflect that pronunciation. However, "You, sir, are a horse's arse" is still a well-accepted (if not necessarily well-received) insult in some British circles. Thanks for the acknowledgment btw, but that really was a wild and jocular guess and I'd actually be surprised if it's correct. But one never knows. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like I was able to answer my own question: [3]. You are right, the American pronunciation in the derivation. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

          Arse dates from 14th century Chaucer (at least) and so predates any American English. Saintmesmin (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese

What does something along the lines of "zeh tai dai jo" mean? (I don't know if that's the correct romaji, probably not, but that's how it sounds). Thanks in advance. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 08:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's "zettai daijōbu". ぜったい大丈夫. It means "absolutely OK/fine". Oda Mari (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It has something to do with swearing. Like "I swear"... Any ideas? Or it might be what you said. Thanks.92.80.22.121 (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"zettai" might be translated as "I swear", e.g. "I swear I'm fine" or "I swear she's fine". -- BenRG (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

But don't forget "zettai" is not "I swear". It's better to think the "I swear" part is omitted. But I prefer "I assure you" to "I swear". Look at these J to E dictionary pages. [4] and [5]. Oda Mari (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I usually just translate 'zettai' (絶対) as 'definitely', so I would say 'I am definitely fine' or 'it will definitely be OK'. In fact, if you want to use something with the same strength of meaning and the same colloquiality as 'I swear', you would use マジで in place of 絶対.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your answers.92.80.22.121 (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What language is this?

Can someone explain the text removed from this edit? Dismas|^(talk) 12:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be French with one or two slang/dialect words thrown in complementing her on her ample breasts. Fribbler (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it wonderful that Wikipedia is able to attract vandals from all over the world ? StuRat (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I confirm it's french, slang and sexist one. Sorry but I've a lack of slang english vocabulary for an accurate translation ! To resume : she have the perfect body for sex, a big breast and had sex with Beckam. Interesting no ? For the encylopedic side, it's written in an argot des cités (a young french slang from poor suburds housing estate which becoming contemporary young french slang). I will check on the French Wikipedia to look for other vandalims from this IP. TCY (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Help translating a motto into English

I have added the motto E singulis communitas to the infobox of the article York, Ontario, based on the image to the right. I am not sure of the translation, though from my Latin dictionary, it translated as "Of a single community". I would appreciate help from Latinists in this Wikipedia or even from the Latin Wikipedia. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 03:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Out of single ones, a community". It looks like it is inspired by E pluribus unum. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have made the change based on your suggestion. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 15:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please keep an eye on this thread though. I'm not a Latinist, and someone might spot a subtle (or not so subtle) mistake in my translation. I guess "out of (six) single communities, one community" makes sense, referring to 1998, when York, Ontario and five other municipalities amalgamated into one single city of Toronto. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no support for the notion, but since the time capsule (and presumably York's motto) dates from before the amalgamation of the municipalities, I'd assume that the motto simply means "From individuals, a community," referring to the citizens of the city. Deor (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I changed it again to "From individuals, a community," since it best reflects pre-amalgamation York rather than post-amalgamation York or the United States. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Arabic names: ابن

Could someone clarify a few things about the Arabic word ابن (ibnu) when used with names. If I can remember it aright, the alif is dropped when the word is part of a nasab and is preceded by a proper ism: محمّد بن إبرهيم (muḥammadu bni ʾibrahīmi). When written without case endings, I've seen both transliterations, ibn and bin, used. The latter seems more to reflect the dropping of the alif, but the former is more common. Does anyone know the rules for this, or is this just local variation? — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Bin" is colloquial Arabic, not standard classical Arabic. In classical Arabic, almost any vowels can precede or follow the -bn- consonant cluster, depending on the syntax, and which words precede and follow. One scholarly convention I've seen is just to transcribe it as "b." when it's medial in a construct chain, and "Ibn" otherwise. For general-purpose transcription of Arabic names into the Latin alphabet, I don't think it's usual to attempt to include word-final short case vowels (i'rab)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphens and parsing of prefixes and suffixes

In English, is there any standard dictating that prefixes and suffixes with hyphens be parsed after those without, or that both sides of a hyphen be parsed before the join across the hyphen is made? For example, can "undeletable" be disambiguated by rendering it as "un-deletable" (impossible to delete) or "undelet-able" (possible to undelete)? NeonMerlin 16:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

English does not have standards. I would understand "un-deletable" as you intend it, but would write "non-deletable" myself. For the second one I would write "undelete-able"; I think if you have to hyphenate it then the usual deletion of the final E is canceled. --Anonymous, 16:51, August 6, 2008.

"Br,"

I've noticed very many of my work colleaques sign their email with:

Br,

Firstname Lastname.

What the heck does this "Br," mean? JIP | Talk 18:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Such an abbreviation is too sloppy for me, but it's quite possibly "Best regards" Astronaut (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Chat abbrivations in work email? Yikes, not everyone in a work place knows chatspeak, also it's unprofessional. 70.165.110.211 (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I vote for "Best regards" as well and agree that it's unprofessional. Dismas|^(talk) 12:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"Freund" and "Freundin"

In German, "boyfriend" is "Freund" and "girlfriend" is "Freundin". But "Freund" also simply means "friend" and "Freundin" is simply its female form. How do Germans distinguish between simple acquintances and intimate relationships when they use the same words for both? JIP | Talk 18:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I will take a stab at this until Angr hopefully comes along with a more definitive answer. The difference in meaning tends to be clear from context, both social and syntactic. If a straight woman or gay man refers to "mein Freund", Germans generally understand that this means "my boyfriend". If a straight woman or gay man wanted to refer to a friendship without romantic entanglement, he or she would probably say "ein Freund von mir" ("a friend of mine"). Similarly, a straight man or lesbian saying "meine Freundin" would suggest that he/she was referring to his/her girlfriend, as opposed to "eine Freundin von mir". The same principle works in the third person: For example, "seine Freundin", said of a straight man, would typically be a reference to his girlfriend, as opposed to "eine Freundin von ihm". Marco polo (talk) 19:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

English doesn't have the clear distinction either. A monogamous and heterosexual man can have several "boyfriends." NeonMerlin 19:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm American and have never used, nor ever heard, "boyfriend" used by a straight man to refer to his guy friends. In fact, that's the term I hear most when a distinction need be used, "guy friends". Dismas|^(talk) 19:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Much the same as Marco Polo above:

• Freunde / Freundinnen, if used in the plural, clearly refer to friends (in the sense of acquaintances).
• Ein Freund / eine Freundin, used with an indefinite article does the same.
• Mein Freund / meine Freundin, used with a possessive pronoun "my" may (but need not always) refer to a boyfriend / girlfriend.
• I guess that the difference generally becomes clear in the context of the sentence and the gender of the speaker. Presumably semantics get a bit more confusing in a gay context. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everyone above except NeonMerlin (no straight guy would be caught dead referring to his "boyfriends"!). I would just add that a heterosexual woman can refer to "meine Freundin" in the sense of "my friend", just as a heterosexual woman can say "my girlfriend" in English to refer to a non-romantic female friend. I would also add that other words for friend exist, like Kumpel (roughly equal to "buddy" or "pal" in en-US and "mate" in en-GB), that can be used with a possessive pronoun without risk of romantic implications. —Angr 19:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Slight nitpick to Berlin and Germknödels: Kumpel is a term which may be used colloquially in parts of Germany (including Brandenburg), but, if used in my neck of the woods (Vienna, Austria / Austro-Bavarian) would generally refer to miners working underground. The term would be understood to mean "friend" in an appropriate context but would be frowned upon as a Piefkinesisches Wort, where Piefke is an Austrian term (mildly sarcastic) for Germans. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Like the others, in Australia men can't have boyfriends without being gay, but women can definitely have girlfriends without necessarily being lesbians. But nobody can have a "partner" of the same sex anymore without appearing to be outed, so "business partner" has to be used to disambiguate. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

-Dialects in Spanish and English

From a amateur and completely subjective perspective, the difference between Spanish and Catalan seems as far as the difference between 'normal' English and some variations like Glaswegian English. Strangely, Catalan is not considered a dialect or variation of Spanish. Historically it is also meaningful to consider Catalan a language. However, why do we consider Glaswegian English and other variation, English at all? Does it have merely a political motivation? (i.e. to consider the UK as a unity)Mr.K. (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The terms dialect and language are slippery because there is more than one way of distinguishing between them. In practice, a language is often defined as a dialect (or form of speech shared by a community) that has official status within a state. By contrast, a dialect is then a form of speech without official status. This is obviously a political definition. Then there is the conventional linguistic definition, according to which a language is a group of mutually intelligible dialects, whereas a dialect is a dialect rather than a language if it is mutually intelligible with another dialect (of the same language). However, this definition is not clear-cut, since there are degrees of intelligibility among dialects. Also, in a dialect continuum, such as exists for example in northern India, one could group mutually intelligible dialects into languages in any number of arbitrary ways, but in every case, adjacent dialects on opposite sides of the arbitrary boundary would have greater mutual intelligibility with each other than with dialects at the other geographic end of the arbitrary language region. I'm not familiar with Catalan and can't assess the degree of mutual intelligibility between Catalan and Castilian. I am more familiar with Czech and Slovak, which are considered distinct languages but which clearly have greater mutual intelligibility than, say, the Southern Appalachian dialect of American English and Cockney English. So you may be right to suspect that the language/dialect distinction in Spain is made more on political than linguistic grounds. Marco polo (talk) 19:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

At least for languages/dialects spoken in parts of the world with high rates of literacy, the distinction between a language and a dialect is more often made on the basis of the presence vs. absence of a well-established literary tradition rather than official status within a state. For example, the difference between Swiss German and Standard German is probably about as great as the difference between Dutch and Standard German, but Swiss German is considered a dialect of German, while Dutch is considered a separate language. There are probably many reasons for this, but I think one of the most important reasons is that Dutch has a well established literary form that is distinct from German, while Swiss German speakers have historically used Standard German as their written language. (That's not to say Swiss German is never written down – of course it is – it's just not used as a written language in Switzerland anywhere near as much as Standard German is.) It's the same with Catalan vs. Spanish and Catalan vs. Valencian – Catalan and Spanish have distinct literary forms, so they're different languages. Valencian doesn't (or traditionally hasn't), so it's generally considered a dialect of Catalan. Of course, this criterion is of no help when examining languages of Papua New Guinea or the Amazon rainforest, but for the parts of the world where writing has been around for a long time, it does seem to be the way a lot of people think about things. At any rate, the decision whether to call A and B separate languages or to call one of them a dialect of the other really is subject to sociological criteria as much as (if not more than) linguistic criteria. —Angr 19:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yup, see pluricentric language. I've never seen the term itself outside Wikipedia, but the page covers all those cases and others. --JWB (talk) 20:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always liked the phrase attributed to linguist Max Weinreich: a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. OtherDave (talk) 00:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Politics is usually the biggest factor. Do you remember talking about Czechoslovakian? Well, after the Iron Curtain fell, it became Czech and Slovak. Occitan used to be its own language. Officially, in France, it's now a dialect of French. Interesting articles on the subject include diglossia, standard language, official language, language politics and language policy. Steewi (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you're thinking of Serbo-Croatian. Czech and Slovak were always considered two different (though very close) languages, even at the height of the Cold War. —Angr 05:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Linguistically, Catalan differs quite a bit from standard Spanish (much more than any Glaswegian dialect that I know about differs from standard "RP" English...). AnonMoos (talk) 01:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

One answer which I haven't seen above is that historically, the two are completely different languages with different origins. Spanish developed in Castilla y Leon (hence its Spanish name castellano in Europe), and catalan developed in Catalonia. People have noted that it sounds like a perfect mixture of French and Spanish, but in actuality, it might just as well be a perfect mixture of Gallic language (there were several dialects of French in the Middle Ages) and Iberian language (e.g., castellano, Galician, Portuguese). I'm not 100% sure on this last part, but I am quite sure that the two languages developed separately. It would be no more correct to call catalan a dialect of Spanish than it would be to call it a dialect of French.

PS. It is widely understood that all Latin based languages (e.g., French and Spanish) are indeed different languages, not different dialects of the same language. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Name - proper transliteration

The actor Fu'ad Ait Aatou (IMDb has it as Aattou) appears in the French movie Une vieille maîtresse (The Last Mistress), that we are running in an upcoming festival at the theater where I work. He doesn't have a Wikipedia page of his own. My question: in his name, is that mark an ayin or a hamza? (Or maybe some other mark?) All of the websites I look at just have it as a vertical apostrophe, which I doubt is correct. Does anyone know for certain? — Michael J 20:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the name is spelled فؤاد if that helps. Looks like hamza to me. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's فؤاد, which is transliterated Fuʾād. That's a hamza over the waw. In French transliteration, it is usually written 'Fouad'. آيت is ʾĀyt with a madda, and is usually written as 'Aït' in French transliteration. I'm not sure about the last word, but it could be آطو, ʾĀṭū. I'm not entirely sure on the last one. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 00:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Girls' names

I 'Andorra' a proper name for a girl? I mean, is it in common usage? And what would be the most common nick name: Andi, Ando, or Dora? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.167.200 (talk) 23:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly never name a girl "Andorra", not only because something else already has that name, but because it would sound too much like Endora. As for nicknames, I'd favor Andi (or Andie or Andy) or Dora (or Dorra) since they're both existing names, rather than "Ando" which isn't. —Angr 23:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Relatively few humans have unique given names, Angr, but we all respect your wish to go this way with your unique children.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What? I was arguing against unique given names, not for them. —Angr 05:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think its best to give a normal first or middle name and consequently a "unique" for lack of the use of the term "fucked" or "stupid" or "ghetto" name opposite it respectively, and in most cases an unusual middle name goes well with a normal first name and NOT the other way around.

But here are my suggestions when it comes to unusual names they are still cool and will largely avoid ridicule!

1. Wednesday 2. River 3. Rain 4. Love 5. Nostalgia 6. Green 7. [Place she was made] (If it could pass for a name, Paris yes, Rio yes, Andorra, me thinks not!) 8. Seven 9. Happy 10. Lucifer - Lucy for short! X. Danger always makes an endlessly cool middle name

p.s. hmmm Toronto isn't a bad boys name now is it? also Cardinal directions are cool, North or West?^MY♥_INchile 00:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There are always exceptions, but I recommend the Supreme Court test for a child's name: "Hey, Mrs. Marshall -- can Thurgood come out and play?" OtherDave (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't Lucifer a male angel (as far as angels can have a sex), and wasn't "he" the one who morphed into Satan? -- JackofOz (talk) 02:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Lucifer points out that Phosphoros is the Greek form for this Latin name meaning "bearer of light." Used to refer to the morning star; Milton used the name specifically for the angel who becomes the prince of demons, though a footnote in the Lucifer article says Milton used "Lucifer" only three times, while using "Satan" 72 times. Hell of a thing. OtherDave (talk) 11:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you're thinking of Andrea, which is a perfectly acceptable girl's name. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The origins and meaning of Andorra are unknown (possibly French Basque or Arabic meaning forest?). I also found a meaning for Andora stating that it meant courageous. As far as popularity rankings I found this site which lists both Andorra and Andora (though I'm unsure how they figure their rankings). As far as nicknames go that is your choice. I like Andi (any spelling) but Ann, Dora, and Addy all workOmahapubliclibrary (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

August 7

Italian translation needed

This is a (fictitious) bibliographic entry from Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies, by Douglas Hofstadter et al. Can anyone provide a translation of the Italian article title and journal title?

Belpatto, Guglielmo Egidio (1890). "L'ipertraduzione esemplificata nel dominio di analogie geografiche". Rivista inesistente di filoscioccosofia, vol. 14, no. 7, pp. 324-271.

68.123.238.140 (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"Simplified Hypertranslation in the Dominion of Geographic Analogies", Nonexistent Journal of Philosociosophy vol. 14, no. 7, pp. 324-271. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 02:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Two minor corrections: "esemplificata" means "exemplified" (not "simplified"), and "filoscioccosofia" has nothing to do with "socio", but rather contains the intrusion "sciocco" meaning "silly"; perhaps I'd translate it as "philosillysophy". ---Sluzzelin talk 02:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Philosillysophy sounds about right, considering that this is a fictitious entry written by someone who loves wordplay. 68.123.238.140 (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

cachi-

In the RAE's entry for cachiporra, it lists the etymology "cachi- + porra". What does the prefix cachi- mean? It's not listed, and the only other place I can find it mentioned is here. Nadando (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, its basic meaning is "almost" (casi). See here. I don't know enough Spanish to have a sense of the exact referent of cachiporra, but perhaps it is shorter than a porra and thus can be considered a "near club". Deor (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Edo-era shogi rules

I need help understanding a rule in a shogi variant, concerning the 驢馬. The quote is 「上下踊り二目、踊らざれば一目、猛牛のごとし」, and the explanation is 猛牛は他の駒を越えて動ける駒ではない。 I'm not sure I understand either. The context is here. Thanks, kwami (talk) 06:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's another one: 如奔王亦猫刄再度歩兼二行. (The 奔王 and 猫刄 are shogi pieces.) Does this mean the two 猫刄 moves have to be in different directions? This is half Chinese. Help! kwami (talk) 01:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Spanish accents

Are there any tricks to help me know if and where a word needs an accent in Spanish? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 08:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

If the word is stressed on any syllable other than one of the last two, the stressed vowel needs an accent mark (e.g. dígamelo). If the word is stressed on the second-to-last syllable (the penult), it only needs an accent mark if the word ends in a consonant letter other than n or s (e.g. Gómez), or if the stressed vowel is "i" immediately followed by another vowel (María). (Unless it's stressed, "i" before a vowel is not considered to be a separate syllable, so a word like Mario is considered to be two syllables, ma-rio, with stress on the penult left unmarked since the word ends in a vowel.) If the word is stressed on the last syllable (the ultima), it needs in accent mark if the word ends in a vowel or in n or s (e.g. Potosí, emoción). Finally, a few monosyllabic words take the accent mark to distinguish them from other words (e.g. mí "me" vs. mi "my"; sí "yes" vs. si "if"; sé "know" vs. se "himself/herself"). That's all the rules I can think of. —Angr 08:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting usages

Hi! While reading Upon the Tented Field (letters home (New Jersey) from some US Civil War (1862-65) soldiers) I was struck by a number of phrases that seemed "too recent": one soldier addressing his father as "Pop"; depressed soldiers having "the blues"; an ineffectual soldier is a "dead beat". I would have placed the last two from the Jazz Age. Now the question.
When either army destroyed a railroad they put the rails on stacked "sleepers" and, burning them, ruined both. (OK, now the questions)

1. When & why did "tie" replace "sleeper" in the US? (Or did it?)
2. Is "sleeper" ever used in the US (regional/contextual)?
3. Is it "tie" and/or "sleeper" in Canada/UK/AU/NZ/India/Africa?
4. Are both used in different contexts some places?

Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 19:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

'Sleeper' is the correct term in the UK. Algebraist 20:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Also "sleeper" in New Zealand and (IIRC) in Australia. Grutness...wha? 10:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

'Tie' is usual in Canada. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sleeper (in railroad terms) has been around for roughly a century when those letters were penned. The OED lists this reference as one of the earliest "1789 BRAND Newcastle II. 687 note, After the road is formed, pieces of timber,..called sleepers, are laid across it... Upon these sleepers other pieces of timber, called rails,..are laid." Pop as reference to a father appear in print sources during the 1820s. Dead-beat is US slang and first appears in print around the time the letters. OED cites a reference from 1863 "Cornhill Mag. Jan. 94 ‘Beau’ Hickman [was] a professional pensioner, or, in the elegant phraseology of the place ‘a deadbeat’" As far as your placing the blues in the Jazz age that almost caught me off guard "The Blues" only first appeared in print in 1912; however, that name comes from a definition of blue that has been around since the 18th century. Having the blues is a colloquial term that comes from the phase "blue devils" Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 21:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The OED s.v. 'tie', n. 7b: "U.S. A (transverse) railway sleeper.". Its first attestation in that sense is 1857. 'Sleeper' in this sense (meaning 10b.) is attested from 1789, but there is no information about how long it remained in use in the US. --ColinFine (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Neat stuff! I realized, after I saved, that "the blues" must have preceded "The Blues". And "Pop" is pretty obvious. I'm surprised about tie, though. Why would it supplant sleeper? And in only about 50 years; I've never read sleeper in a Zane Grey etc. Pullman?

Another one that surprised me: "chastity belt" (if memory serves) 1932. Did they even exist until then (figuratively speaking)? Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 23:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Chastity belt. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"Sleeper" in the Pullman sense comes from "sleeping car." George Pullman is credited with their invention. For many years, the Pullman company managed its own sleeping cars. Hence "Pullman porter" originally meant a sleeping car porter employed by the Pullman company. Generations of idiots thought it the height of wit to call the porter "George" ("George Pullman porter," get it?). Ties at one time were called crossties, probably because they tied or linked the rails. OtherDave (talk) 00:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

We need a link to the Society for the Prevention of Calling Sleeping Car Porters "George". Rmhermen (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sleeper has about 4 railway definitions. Sleeper usually gets used as a short form of sleeping car. However, in Saintrain's case it looks like the word is being used in a sense of the pieces of wood laid out between the rails of a track Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Check out Gandy or gandy dancer for more on "sleeper" vs. "ties". DOR (HK) (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese

For a while, I've been wondering about this. For the music album Sorarado, the original title is ソララド, and since there was no apparent translation, romaji was used. However, since the original title is in katakana, that most likely denotes a foreign word, but I can't match it to anything. I've considered solarad and solalad, but both don't turn up anything.--十八 21:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Katakana is usually used for foreign words, but not exclusively: it might be used for nonsense sounds, for example. Note also that the name of the last track begins with 'sora' ('sky'). --ColinFine (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I notice ソララド is a soundtrack for a novel/anime called クラナド ("Clannad"). There's probably a connection there. The article lede says that "clannad" was supposed to be an Irish Gaelic word (but isn't actually). Katakana is used for a lot of things besides foreign words (see Katakana#Usage), but I think "sorarado" is meant to be either a real foreign word or a made up foreign-sounding word. -- BenRG (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It could possibly be a form of onomatopoeia. I've listened to traditional Japanese folk songs that make ample use onomatopoeia. Perhaps it can also be found in more contemporary music.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 00:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I actually just thought it came from some of the syllables of ド・レ・ミ・ファ・ソ・ラ・ティ・ド. 'Clannad' is the Irish word for 'families', or 'children', as the original Irish band Clannad was made up of two families. Why there is a manga/anime called this, I don't know. There is no Japanese word in my knowledge which is pronounced 'ソララド', and I have heard this type of thing (i.e. using the syllables of the musical scale) a lot in Japanese songs, especially children's songs and 'folk-ish' songs, so I believe that is all it is.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

August 8

mandarin aspiration

Hi. In what regional variation of Mandarin is the aspiration strongly realised as /R/ or /X/ instead of /h/?

eg

/tʰuɕukwan/ --> /tXuɕukwan/

A native speaker of Chinese who is helping me learn sometimes speaks like this. I'm wondering how widespread is this pronunciation?

Thanks

- Ian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duomillia (talk • contribs) 04:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Does s/he speak this way when not teaching you? I'm just wondering if it's pedagogic exaggeration. kwami (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hm, /kʰɯː/ in Korean is realized as [kʰxː] quite often. I wonder if it's just the back vowel influencing the obstruent. --Kjoonlee 01:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"/kʰɯː/ in Korean is realized as [kʰxː]"? So, the vowel completely disappears (or is realized as x:)? Wouldn't that be the obstruent influencing the back vowel?--ChokinBako (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand /tʰuɕukwan/ --> /tXuɕukwan/ and can't find any translation. What word or character relates to the example? DOR (HK) (talk) 01:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's 図書館, 'tushuguan', 'library'. ChokinBako (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

That's Japanese (図 is a Kanji, not found in either simplified or traditional Chinese). In Chinese it's 图书馆/圖書館. --antilived^{T | C | G} 11:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I knew it was Japanese. I just couldn't get my PC to let me type 圖書館. I was hoping someone would figure it out, as you did.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I've heard it before, mostly from northern Chinese (Beijing area). It's a free variation phonological alternation. The sound you're hearing is an fricative release. It's actually a phonological feature in some languages - for example Lakhota. Steewi (talk) 12:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason I didn't answer the OP's original question was because it sort of threw me a bit. I lived in Tianjin, near Beijing, and I heard it all the time, along with the so-called standard version, and at the time thought nothing of it, or at least that they were interchangeable. Is it different in other areas? ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's less heard as you go further south, but quite acceptable. It's also more prevalent in men than women. Steewi (talk) 04:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Biblical quotation

Where does this saying come from Thank you:- What has God Wrought? Thank you Shirley Briggs <Contact information removed by Deor> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.165.254 (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Numbers 23:23 (King James Version), and it's "What hath God wrought?" Deor (talk) 12:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Quoting from the bible is one way to telegraph your message. OtherDave (talk) 14:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

And misquoting, even Morse-so. :-) StuRat (talk) 15:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Dash it all, Stu. Dot is not nice! Express some reMorse. Wanderer57 (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

How can we be sure that the original should be translated as "hath," rather than "has" ? DOR (HK) (talk) 01:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of your question. The OP was seeking the origin of an English sentence—familiar from Marconi's Morse's use of it—not an elucidation of the original Hebrew, and Marconi Morse used the KJV version. (The heading of this section was my addition, since the OP had just appended the question to the section above.) You're quite welcome to use "has" if you want, but I'd advise replacing the obsolete participle of work as well. Deor (talk) 02:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Deor; this use of "wrought" is ironic. OtherDave (talk) 11:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

(droll, very droll). But getting serious for a moment, are you fine fellows suggesting it would be "What God has worked"? That sounds rather odd to my antipodean ears. I'd more readily accept "What God has done", which involves replacing the verb altogether. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The Authorized King James Version was published in 1611, and its eponym was King James I of England, who ruled in England from 1603 to 1625. His predecessor was Queen Elizabeth I of England, who reigned from 1558 to 1603, and he was contemporaneous with William Shakespeare, who lived from 1564 to 1616. Shakespeare's writings and the Authorized King James Version were produced during the period of Early Modern English, when some inflected forms of verbs differed from the forms used in 2008.

According to the Bible (Numbers chapters 22, 23, and 24), when the Israelites were about to enter the Promised Land, Balak king of Moab asked Balaam to curse them, but he blessed them instead and on more than one occasion. On one of those occasions, the question under discussion is what he said that people would ask concerning the loyal God of the faithful Israelites.

Twelve English versions of this verse are at Numbers 23:23 "For there is no omen against Jacob, Nor is there; and two Greek versions, nine Hebrew versions, and one Latin version are at Numbers 23:23 Greek, Hebrew, Latin.

The article "American Morse code" (under History) says the following:

The first public message "What hath God wrought" was sent on May 24, 1844, by Morse in Washington to Alfred Vail at the B&O Railroad "outer depot" (now the B&O railroad museum) in Baltimore, Maryland.

-- Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The message was actually "What hath God wrought?", as can be seen from this photo. Judging from http://bible.cc/numbers/23-23.htm, the phrase in the Bible is an exclamation rather than a question. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out; I overlooked the distinction. However, now I am puzzled by what looks like a colon at the end of the verse in Hebrew (http://biblos.com/numbers/23-23.htm), whereas the article on Hebrew punctuation seems to indicate that such a character is the equivalent of a period.

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensuality?

Does the word "consensuality" exist? If not, could someone offer me a substitute in the following sentence: "When this is repeated by other sources, it gives an impression of consensuality."

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

A guess: consensus? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

an adjective for the giving of consent if you ask me^MY♥_INchile 21:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

For the presciptionists, Merriam-Webster's Third International Dictionary Unabridged does not recognize consensuality as a valid word. As for an alternative, go with consensus as suggested by Zain Ebrahim, because etymologically, "consenual" is just the Latin consenus plus the English morpheme -al.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I've used it as a word, without giving much thought to whether it 'exists' or not, but I don' think it's a commonly used word. When I've used it, it was referring to Myheartinchile's definition. Steewi (talk) 12:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

what's this say? Faroese translation

Friðarbogin[1] var fyrsta føroyska felagið, ið tókst við evnum viðvíkjandi samkyndum og tvíkyndum í Føroyum. Friðarbogin var settur á stovn 17. oktober 2003. Aðalendamálið hjá felagnum var at arbeiða fyri politiskari, mentanarligari og sosialari javnvág fyri sam- og tvíkynd í Føroyum. Upprunanavnið hjá felagnum var Ælabogin, men broyttist til Friðarbogin á fyrsta aðalfundinum hjá felagnum í januar 2004.

Í november 2004 var Friðarbogin við til at stovna ANSO - sum er felagsskapurin hjá STT studentafeløgum í Norðurlondum. [2] [3]

22-27. august 2005 var fyrsta ráðstevnan hjá ANSO, Canaries in the Coal Mines, hildin í Tórshavn. Henda norðurlendska LGBT[4] ráðstevnan var fyriskipað av ANSO, Friðarboganum og felagnum Bogin. Ráðstevnan endaði við fyrstu skrúðgonguni fyri STT (sam-, tví- og transkynd) í Føroyum. Røðarar til ráðstevnuna vóru millum annað: Judith Halberstam (US) [5], Jens Rydström (SE) [6], David Megathlin (US) [7], Arthur Thiry (SE) [8], Britta Swenson (SE) og Don Kulic (SE)[9].

17-19. august 2007 fekk Friðarbogin vitjan av ANSO, STT ráðstevnan (sam-, tví- og transkynd) var fyriskipað undir heitinum "Hevur kærleiki kyn?" Tað er Friðarbogin saman við ANSO, ið skipar fyri festivalinum.

[rætta] Dagfestingar hjá Friðarboganum

• 17. oktober 2003 : Friðarbogin stovnsettur
• 22. august 2005 : ráðstevnan "Canaries in the Coal Mines" sett
• 27. august 2005 : fyrsta skrúðgongan, Føroya Pride 2005
• 15. desember 2007 : §266b [10]
• 17. august 2007 : ráðstevnan "Hevur kærleiki kyn?" sett
• 18. august 2007 : næsta skrúðgongan, Føroya Pride 2007
• 2008 : Føroya Pride 2008

thanks^MY♥_INchile 20:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"Friðarbogin was the first Faroese association to deal with issues regarding homosexual and bisexual people in the Faroe Islands. Friðarbogin was established October 17, 2003. The main goal of the association was to work for political, educational and social equality for homosexual and bisexual people in the Faroe Islands. The original name of the association was Ælabogin [The Rainbow] but it was changed to Friðarbogin [The Peacebow] at the first general assembly of the association in January 2004." etc. etc. Do you really need the whole thing? Haukur (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Italian words for money: "denaro" or "soldi"

Is any of them more likely to be used in certain situations than the other? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, for what it's worth, on Italian wikipedia denaro directs you to the Italian version of the English wikipedia's article on "money," and soldi to "currency." This Italian dictionary doesn't help, defining soldi as "money, wealth." FWIW I used a "Learn Italian while you drive" program (not saying it did any good), and in the tourism phrases it had me repeat, they always used soldi to mean "money" and never denaro--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think denaro is not so used any more. It is the kind of word you would expect only from your grandmother. I don't remember ever hearing denaro while talking to young people. --Lgriot (talk) 02:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Denaro and soldi both translate as money. Soldi is the common word used in general speech. Soldi is usually used in the plural (soldo - is only used in the sense of "spare me a dime" - reather than "give me your money"). Denaro usually used in the singular, is a more official word - used in finance etc. (The plural "denari" refers to the ancient Roman coinage, from which the word derives) Giano (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

PS: Before someone asks, "moneta" refers to coinage and bank notes (carta moneta) etc. Giano (talk) 08:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry, I obviously never had much to deal with official documents in Italy. Go with Giano's answer, not mine. --Lgriot (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia has an article titled "Denaro" (it:Denaro), which is the second result from my Google search for "denaro" in any language. It is linked bidirectionally with the English Wikipedia article "Money" (Money). A search for "soldi" on Italian Wikipedia is redirected to the article "Valuta" (it:Valuta), which is linked bidirectionally with the English Wikipedia article "Currency" (Currency).

My Google search for "denaro" in Italian reported 6,700,000 results, and my Google search for "soldi" in Italian reported 13,700,000 results. See also the Wiktionary article "money" (wikt:money), and the expandable lists of translations; and the Wikizionario article "denaro" (it:wikt:denaro).

There is a recent report (Saturday, 9 August, 2008) in Il Messaggero, I trasferimenti di denaro - Il Messaggero (Transfers of Money).

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The origins of "denaro" and "soldi" are explained at Denarius and Solidus (coin) respectively. Historical information is also available from the Online Etymology Dictionary (Online Etymology Dictionary).

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

My Google search for "denaro soldi usage" led me to Denaro vs Moneta vs Soldi - WordReference Forums.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Lang may yir lum reek wi ither fowk's coal"

Is the title correctly written for a traditional Scots-Gaelic phrase? I understand that it means something along the lines of "Long may your chimney smoke with other folk's coal" but when would it be used? (Is it congratulatory, a wish for happiness, or wealth, or stability?) What is the correct pronunciation? Thanks for any help you can provide. ៛ Bielle (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not Gaelic, but Scots. I've never heard the full sentence you quote, only the first five words, and there isn't really a standard spelling for Scots (though Scots leid describes one), but it seems to be a reasonable way of writing the sentence. I've no idea when, if ever, it would seriously be used. --ColinFine (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I too have only heard the first five words - it's sometimes used as a toast. At a guess (and I'd stress that it's a guess) I'd say it would be highly appropriate as a salutation when first-footing. Grutness...wha? 01:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd assume that "wi ither fowk's coal" is a humorous expansion, implying that the addressee will be doubly blessed by not having to pay for the coal. (Not that the Scots have a reputation for tightfistedness!) Deor (talk) 01:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think all of the above is right on track. I've heard both versions. The first part is more commonly used in my experience. This may be clear already, but the point of "Lang may yir lum reek" is to wish someone a long and comfortable life. Wanderer57 (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all. Someone wants to use it in a wedding toast where the groom is a long way from his Scottish home. I was checking to see if it was appropriate. We will stick with the short version as there is less ambiguity in the greeting. Your help is appreciated. ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find a place to use this lesser-known poem by Burns:

Ithers seek they ken na what,

Features, carriage, and a' that;

Gie me love in her I court,

Love to love maks a' the sport.

Let love sparkle in her e'e;

Let her lo'e nae man but me;

That's the tocher-gude I prize,

There the luver's treasure lies.

OtherDave (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

siberian/north russian

what ever happened to the siberian/north russian wikipedia?^MY♥_INchile 22:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It was closed because it was determined, I believe by vote on meta wikimedia, that it was a propaganda tool and not a real language. Many of the words used in the language were simply made up by the authors of the wikipedia. Additionally, many of the translations were awful: something about prodigious use of the Russian word for "fuck" in translating Shakespeare works, and the sysops banning anyone who disagreed with their point of view. 71.58.94.162 (talk) 22:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Such matters are determined on http://meta.wikimedia.org/ ; I'm sure there are extensive discussions of the subject there... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Siberian Wikipedia was made up by a crank who invented a "Siberian dialect" of the Russian language. He recruited his classmates to the cause, and they opened a separate wikipedia where they had fun writing pages consisting of Russian swear-words. Can you imagine a separate wikipedia project for English profanities? It was hard to persuade any Russian speaker to take Wikipedia seriously as long as we had a curse-words wikipedia by our side. This shameful page in Wikimedia's history highlights the need to show more restraint when opening new wikipedias in obscure dialects which few people can realistically monitor. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

August 9

Is this wrong?

I'm using livemocha to learn Italian but they are giving the English translation of "he has a white beard" as "lui ha la barba bianca" but from my of knowledge of Italian so far and my knowledge of Spanish it seems to me that it should be "lui ha una barba bianca" instead. Can anyone confirm whether I or not I am right? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 00:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not wrong: una usually goes with "due", "tre" etc. Because the guy cannot have 2 white beards, indicating whether he has "una" or "la" makes not difference in the meaning. I think "la" would be by far the prefered way. Una would be understood, but they might wonder why you specify the number of them, could he have "due"? some people might actually translate "lui ha una barba bianca" into "He has one white beard" --Lgriot (talk) 02:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Similarly in French, 'il a la barbe blanche', if my memory serves me correctly. This happens with all facial features and body parts. As Lgriot states, it is not necessary to specify how many of a certain feature a person has, unless that person actually has an unusual number of them, such as the Cyclops of Greek Mythology, or you are only describing one of two of them. The definite article is usually used. After all, can you count the hairs on a person's head?--ChokinBako (talk) 19:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Relatedly, you talk about "washing the face" rather than "washing your face". jnestorius^(talk) 08:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You do? (in Italian I take it) Julia Rossi (talk) 10:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's an example of the linguistic concept of inalienable possession. Steewi (talk) 12:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Danish Letter

Can anyone translate this letter? It seems to be in Danish but I can't understand it. http://i38.tinypic.com/2010pvr.jpg

--68.4.124.72 (talk) 03:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Its a sailor writing home to his parents.Don't have time to translate it now.·Maunus·ƛ· 06:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can anybody please translate Latin text?

Does this text [6], especially pages 286, 307 say Charlemagne was declared Roman dictator?--Dojarca (talk) 13:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure does, specifically the first sentence of Note 13 on p. 286. According to the text, not only was made dictator, but also consul, tribune, and patrician.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you translate it?--Dojarca (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, that sentence says Then Carolus [Charlemagne] was named consul, tribune, universal dictator, and patrician by the emperor, pontiff, senate, and Roman people, by the given law. If you're looking for more than that for translation, let me know and I'll try, but the rest of Note 13 is slightly beyond my expertise.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

How could he be named dictator by emperor? By which emperor? Or he made dictator himself? And 'perpetuus' probably should mean 'permanent', not 'universal'?--Dojarca (talk) 21:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

For the history aspect, someone else will have to step in to give a good answer. I was reluctant to use "permanent" for the translation because it wasn't recommended by any of the four dictionaries I checked [7] [8] [9] [10]. "Lasting" or "continuous" might be better.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. And what the page 307 says?--Dojarca (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Dictator perpetuus" is often translated as "perpetual dictator" or simply "dictator for life". The rest of the note says: "The charter given by Charlemagne, the beginning and end of which I [the editor I guess?] attach here, is still preserved intact in Regensburg in the monastery of St. Emmeram. 'Charles by the grace of God king of the Franks and of the Lombards, and Patrician of Rome, grants [this charter] to the monastery of St. Emmeram, which is situated (as it is said) beyond the walls of our city of Regensburg. Granted on the 8th day before the Kalends of May [April 23] in Frankfurt in the 26th year of our reign [c. 793/94]. As for who is naming him all these things, probably Pope Hadrian I, whom Charlemagne saved from a Lombard invasion. This is probably all hyperbole; Rome wasn't much more than a pile of rubble, where the Pope, some petty nobles, and lots of peasants lived. That covers the pontiff, senate, and people; I suppose "imperator" should be understood in the Roman sense of "commander", not emperor, which probably also refers to the Pope. Charlemagne was not called emperor until 800, and it is certainly not the Byzantine emperor (actually empress at the time), who was very opposed to anyone being called emperor in the west. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you please translate what is said on page 307?--Dojarca (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

What part? All of it, or note 31? It just says he held a meeting in Rome, "of which he was consul etc." Note also that this was all written by Johannes Aventinus in the 16th century, not by a contemporary chronicler. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Isaac Newton also says he was consul. Is there any contemporary evidence?--Dojarca (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

My knowledge of Charlemagne does not run that deep, unfortunately! Maybe Einhard mentioned it? Adam Bishop (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In ancient Roman politics, the word "dictator" referred to a military commander who was given extraordinary powers of limited duration in an an emergency... AnonMoos (talk) 23:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Are the Turkish Language and the Uyghur Language mutually intelligible?

Are the Turkish language of Turkey and the Uyghur language mutually intelligible? Can they understand at least 50% of each other spoken language? Sonic99 (talk) 22:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I know a Turk who said Turks can understand Uyghur, but to what extent he may have been bragging I don't know. Paul Davidson (talk) 11:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Osmanli and Uzbek are close enough that people can come to understand each other fairly quickly, but I don't know about Uighur. kwami (talk) 11:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Uighur is supposed to be mostly intelligible with Turkish, from what I've read, but in the way that I (in Australia) can understand a Scotsman in broad Scots. I know what's going on, but he'll have to repeat himself a bit. Steewi (talk) 12:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Light-hearted side note: One of my favorite quotes from a Scandinavian tour book answers basically the same question about the Nordic languages as follows: Swedes and Norwegians can speak with each other, but when dealing with Danes they prefer to speak English.

Funny in my house since my wife is Danish! --Danh, 67.40.167.46 (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

August 10

Serious question

Can any one please tell me where the phrase 'kiss my ass' originates thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.242.64 (talk) 02:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and venture a wild guess - you can probably figure it out. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

There's an episode of literal ass-kissing in The Canterbury Tales, and Mozart wrote a canon on Leck mich im Arsch. The humiliating and indecent overtones of the concept have probably existed for millennia. Strad (talk) 04:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Questions like this actually do have answers, although the answer is not always known. Such phrases often turn out to be much more recent than you might expect, but "kiss my ass" really is quite old. In the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, vol. 1, p. 41, it's traced back to ca. 1554 - 76 in G. Hughes Swearing p. 104: "Com kiss myne arse!" HDAS also notes that the appearance of this phrase in a literal sense in Chaucer's Miller's Tale, ca. 1389, strongly suggests its existence metaphorically as well in Middle English. John M Baker (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

curly looking or curly-looking?

Which is right?

a curly looking font or a curly-looking font.

Is either acceptable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.2.59 (talk) 04:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

See Hyphen#Compound modifiers. I would consider that the hyphen is required in this case, but today it is becoming more common not to use it. --Anonymous, 04:40 UTC, August 10, 2008.

For what it's worth (not much), I'd say you could use simply "a curly font." The essence of a font is its appearance, so the "looking" isn't necessary, any more than it would be in "a bold font," "a thin font," "a small font," and so on. The late George Carlin used to rant that he didn't need a "hot water heater" (a common expression in the U.S.) -- "Who in hell needs to heat hot water?" OtherDave (talk) 13:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, in a storage water heater (as opposed to a demand one), which is the usual type in the US, the hot water is indeed heated, to keep it hot. --Anonymous, 03:11 UTC, August 11, 2008.

Marathi Language its Origin and Age

I would like to know what is the origin of Marathi language (the language spoken and used by a majority of people born and brought up or living in the state of Maharashtra which is a big and important state on the West Coast of India .

There is a lot of commonality between Marathi and Sanskrit . It also resembles a lot with Konkani , Kannada and othet South Indian languages.Sanskrit happens to be the origin of Devanagari and many Dravidian languages.

but i would like to know the exact age and origin and evolution of Marathi script as well as language and dialect and the age in reference to other Dravidian languages.--Sureshkarve (talk) 07:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)srk11in 100808

A couple points:

1. Sanskrit is not the source of any Dravidian language.
2. Marathi is not a Dravidian language.
3. Sanskrit is not the source of Devanagari. Nagari is a writing system, and Sanskrit was a language—one which wasn't even written.
4. You cannot date the origin of a language exactly when it evolves gradually from another. There is no absolute dividing line. Very often the same is true of scripts.

Okay, when you say "Marathi script", do you mean Moḍī?

We might be able to give an estimate of when, say, Marathi diverged from Konkani, or an approximate date for when something recognizably Marathi was first put into writting. Our Apabhramsha article it states "The modern north Indian languages are often considered to have begun to develop a distinct identity around the 11th century", and in the Marathi article it says "Marathi is [one of] the oldest of the regional literatures in Indo-Aryan languages, dating from about AD 1000," but I don't know how accurate these figures are. kwami (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

---

"Sanskrit is not the source of Devanagari. Nagari is a writing system, and Sanskrit was a language—one which wasn't even written."

Sanskrit was never written? Sanskrit has been written for thousands of years in a variety of scripts, one of which was Devanagari, and continues to be used as an official language of India, again using the Devanagari script.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, during the first 7 or 8 centuries or so after alphabetic writing was introduced into India, written Sanskrit texts did not generally take precedence over oral recitations of memorized texts by respected reciters, and the writing of Sanskrit was not really encouraged by the Brahmans who were the custodians of the sanctity of the Sanskrit language. That's why even some highly dry and technical works (such as Panini's theoretical grammar) were put into a kind of hypercondensed poetic form (for easier memorization and recitation). AnonMoos (talk) 20:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

is japanese easy to learn if your chinese is good?

is malay easy to learn if your english is good? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.13.3 (talk) 12:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If you speak and read Chinese, it will only help in that you will be able to recognize certain characters and character combinations, which may help you with vocabulary. Moreover, it depends on whether you use traditional or simplified characters, because Japanese uses a combination of both. If you only speak Chinese but can't read, then it will be of very little help at all. As an unrelated language, Japanese grammar and syntax are completely different from Chinese. --ChokinBako (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

and malay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.65.135 (talk) 12:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This American Government site gives Malay as taking 36 weeks to learn. This is a shorter time than many European languages. Fribbler (talk) 12:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

mother

Why is it that the word for "mother" across many languages, even ones that aren't related like say English and Chinese rather than Spanish and Italian, seem to have similar pronunciation. Specifically, that they seem to make use of "ma" or similar sounds. Is there an explanation for this --212.120.246.239 (talk) 13:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

There's an etymology here — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 13:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

And Wikipedia has the article mama and papa. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys, That's actually what I thought might be the reason for it --212.120.246.239 (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen vs. dash

Should there be a dash instead of a hyphen in the name of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and in the article about the said act in the section heading "Lincoln-Douglas Debate". On a related note, should Debate be capitalised? I have not received any answer on the appropriate talk page for a while, and I thought some of you might have an idea about this. Thanks, --Dami (talk) 13:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen says there's no definitive rule about hyphenation (no kidding!). In general, though, hyphens have been used to break single words into parts (especially at the end of a line of text), or to join separate words into single ones (book case → book-case → bookcase is a typical evolution).

Dash gives examples of several different dashes and suggests using an en dash to contrast values and show relationships between things (e.g., "the McCain–Feingold bill," which is similar in form to "the Lincoln–Douglas debate").

Personally, I wouldn't capitalize "debate," except in something like the title of an article, but that's just my preference. (Oops, I misread that part of the question.) I'd capitalize "Act" because it's part of the title of the act, though in later reference like "other parts of this act..." I would not. OtherDave (talk) 14:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

-- (hyphen) vs - (dash) though most people don't bother distiguishing the two (also note there are several schools of thought on -- vs - dash actually states thing opposite than what I just have). Mainly though the difference is how it is being used. A dash is a "hasty stroke" (often used in lists, phone numbers etc) while a hyphen is deliberate character used in writing (complex words, split words, number ranges etc).Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly when a mathematical theorem is named after two or more people, as in Cauchy–Schwarz inequality, the convention on Wikipedia is to use an ndash rather than a hyphen, but it is also true that that convention is usually not followed in the initial version of the article, and then the article gets moved later. Michael Hardy (talk) 15:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I have always thought that 'hyphen' was just another word for 'dash', and they could be used interchangeably (except that I'd never heard of a 'hundred-metre hyphen (sorry, The Olympics are getting to me...:()).ChokinBako (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the Congress use the dash in their materials?--Dami (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the Congress of the United States? I'm not sure, but in the manual of style used by the U.S. Government Printing Office, chapter 8 discusses punctuation, including en dashes. (As elsewhere, I think, "dash" is too general a term for them.) Starts around section 8.60, on page 133 in the html version. OtherDave (talk) 21:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the US Congress, just to get an idea whether they would use an en-dash in the name of the Kansas-Nebraska Act. --Dami (talk) 22:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The GPO is the printer for all three branches of government, so the section of the style manual should give you something to go on. OtherDave (talk) 03:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

So, if I read it correctly, they wouldn't use the en-dash in Kansas-Nebraska Act. --Dami (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Cover letter

I am having trouble with following statements (especially second statement): In response that a reliable source that some employer appointed soon at your disposal. I would like to offer myself as a candidate of reporter for the part-time position.

Are above statements correct? Or should I rewrite second statement: I would like to offer myself as a reporter for the part-time position.

Does Position and Post have same meaning? I need standard format so that employer will not get bothered after seeing its lead section. Thank you--202.168.229.243 (talk) 19:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Neither of those sentences is grammatically correct. In fact, I find the first sentence even more problematic than the second; I can't tell what idea you are trying to express. Are you saying that you have heard that they will be hiring someone?

For the second sentence, you could make it work by switching the "reporter" and "part-time position" bits: "I would like to offer myself as a candidate for the part-time position of reporter." You could also say ""I would like to offer myself as a candidate for the part-time reporter position."

The phrase "offer myself as a candidate for..." is grammatically correct, but stylistically it comes across a bit formal and stilted. It would be simpler and clearer to state "I would like to apply for the position of reporter."

Position and post do have the same meaning, though I believe usage varies from country to country. In North America, as far as I am aware, "position" is more common than "post". - Eron^Talk 19:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks Eron. So I could write "I would like to apply for the part – time position of Reporter". If it is full time position then Can I write, "I would like to apply for the full-time position of Reporter" or "I would like to apply for this position of Reporter".

As for first statement, actually employer published job advertisement on online and newspaper which caught my attention. In this instance, What could be the beginning (first) statement? --202.168.229.243 (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I assume the job in question is as a reporter. You could write "I am writing in response to your advertisement in (wherever you saw it). I would like to apply for the position of reporter." You only need to specify part-time or full-time if both kinds of positions were advertised and you are only interested in one type of employment. - Eron^Talk 21:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"I am writing to apply for the position of reporter, as advertised in [publication]" is the way I normally do it, then start a new paragraph to state my experience and skills. If I needed to specify part-time or full-time, I would say "position of part-time/full-time reporter", putting the 'part-time/full-time' before 'reporter' and not 'position'.--ChokinBako (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

August 11

Was graduated

'John Smith' pursued classical studies and was graduated from Yale in 1991.

OR

'John Smith' pursued classical studies and graduated from Yale in 1991.

Is graduating something a person does or something that is done to them?

Wanderer57 (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It's something they do. Your 2nd example is the one to use. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Nowadays, either one is fine. In the 19th century, the transitive sense was the only proper use ("He was graduated from Yale,") and the intransitive sense ("He graduated from Yale") was condemned. At present, both transitive and intransitive senses are accepted: the dispute now is over whether a preposition is needed: "she graduated from high school", vs. "she graduated high school". Best use still favors the former, but all three ("she was graduated from college", "she graduated from college", and "she graduated college") are perfectly standard English usage. - Nunh-huh 22:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Jack on this one. I've never heard the other one before, and omission of the preposition is purely an American thing.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've stated more or less what the dictionary I have at hand says. So Wanderer57 is free to go with the Merriam-Webster 11th Collegiate edition, or with the musings of two Wikipedians, or to consult another dictionary. - Nunh-huh 01:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A fourth opinion, for what it's worth: Nunh-huh's analysis was spot on. Deor (talk) 01:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nunh-huh's analysis might be accurate but a bit archaic. The examples actually use two different definitions of graduate. Graduate in the transitive sense is considered outdated, a point noted by even the Oxford English Dictionary. Instead many opt to use the definition "to take a degree". In this sence the second example would fit. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 05:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

August 12

Arabic Verbs

Does anyone know a way to differentiate between the different groups of trilateral verbs described in this website? http://vegasociety.com/arabic/present.html --Elatanatari (talk) 01:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Differentiate them how? It only seems to be the basic first pattern, if that's what you mean. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Between the verbs that have dammas, kasra, or fatahs between the 3rd and 4th consonants.Is there a way to tell from the root or does one just have to 'know'?--Elatanatari (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no I think that's kind of random for verbs of the first pattern. It's usually damma, though. You just have to learn it for each verb. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, lol.Elatanatari (talk) 13:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

One -> He

Is it proper grammar to switch pronouns in this manner when writing? For example — One can do the things he had always wanted to do, but had never had the time. For some reason, I believed it is, but on review I'm thinking it isn't. seresin ( ¡? ) 03:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• I've taken the liberty of moving your "unrelated question" down into a separate item. --Anonymous, 04:16 UTC, August 12, 2008.

Q.1. Prescriptively: "one" does not take another pronoun, so once you've started with "one", you've got to stick with "one" ("One is proud to say that one learned to read before one turned 4"). Descriptively: most people who don't know the rule would probably not use this word in any case because it's often associated with a kind of "upper-class" way of speaking. But those who do use it generally adhere to the rule, but they choose their moment carefully. So, people would generally either know the rule and follow it, but use it sparingly; or not know the rule and not use the expression at all. There must be exceptions to this, but I can't think of a good real-life example where "one" is followed by another pronoun. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this one depends on what country you're in. In Britain the rule is as Jack says, but people in the US who use the pronoun "one" at all commonly do switch to another pronoun rather than repeating it. Traditionally the other pronoun is "he", but these days people who object to "he" in gender-neutral contexts will substitute some alternative such as "he or she" or perhaps a "singular they". --Anonymous, 04:23 UTC, August 12, 2008.

JackofOz is right pronoun should remain constant. You have started with the non-gender one you need to stick with the non-gender form not switch to the masculine he (some argue that the pronoun here should be their but the use of the plural as singular non-gender isn't probably going to be settled anytime soon). A person might also see the use of one as a pronoun in student papers (at least if the student has a picky English teacher and cares about a good grade). Since formal writing should not contain 1st or 2nd person, one can be used as a substitute for you ("If one imagines..."). Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 05:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Release from future liability

As an unrelated question, is there a word meaning 'to release from any future liability', and especially protect from a lawsuit? I was thinking about "indemnify", but that has several meanings and one of them is somewhat related, but not as much as I previously though it did. Thanks! seresin ( ¡? ) 03:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Immunity is the closest I can come up with. ---Sluzzelin talk 05:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC) (Never mind, I misread your question, but had my coffee now. I can't think of a verb meaning "to release from any future liability". ---Sluzzelin talk 08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Pardon, as in "Nixon was pardoned by President Gerald Ford in 1974" may be suitable. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you may not get any closer than "indemnify" to the meaning you want. Indemnify has a fairly broad meaning of releasing or protecting from liability. For example, "director indemnification" is about protecting the directors of a corporation from being personally liable for things that might go wrong as a consequence of their decisions. Wanderer57 (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Terminology

Recently I was having a conversation with a friend in which they were discussing the notion that a person thinks that they are inherently proficient at a certain task or skill without any previous attempts or formal training. Specifically, my friend assumed that they would be great a javelin throwing to the point in which they would be the best in the world.

I said that there was a specific term used to describe this notion of inherent superiority, but I could not think of the word.

Does anybody know?

Cholycross (talk) 05:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A prodigy, perhaps? -- Captain Disdain (talk) 10:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Megalomania ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right, the notion of inherent superiority. Megalomania sounds about right. That, or hubris. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"Innate" ability conveys the idea of something a person is born with. (It is a bit of a stretch to imagine an innate ability to throw a javelin but I suppose someone might be born with the "right" genetics" to develop skill in javelin throwing.) Wanderer57 (talk) 12:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ist, IInd, IIIrd?

Do Roman numerals take suffixes [?] like -st, -nd, -rd (as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd)? 59.91.254.9 (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Not in ordinary usage; suffixes are supplied by context. We talk about the XVIII ("eighteenth") century, the XXIX ("twenty-ninth") Olympiad, Henry V ("the fifth"). Although in French, "Louis XIV" is read as "Louis Quatorze," literally "Louis Fourteen." — OtherDave (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Colon usage

Hi,
In the following sentence is the colon used correctly? "Therefore, regardless of Sarah’s true reason for raising her hand, she could not have committed assault since Ben suffered no psychological distress: the crux of assault." The additional text after the colon is meant to indicate that psychological distress is the crux of assault. Many thanks, --Fir0002 13:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

One use of the colon is to expand or explain a statement. That might apply here, though to me the sentence is lengthy and unclear (this is description, not criticism). if the key point is that assault requires psychological distress (I have no idea), this might work better:

Although Sarah did strike Ben, the effect lacked the crux of assault: psychological distress.

— OtherDave (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree with OtherDave. Thats how I would write it: it seems much clearer. I use a colon (amongst some other things) in place of the abbr. i.e. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.184.142 (talk) 14:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Latin translation please

Hi all, I found this on a piece of paper on the ground... jus primae noctis... translation? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.155.86 (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Law of the first night. See Droit de seigneur. Fribbler (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Un-freaking-real! WP has an article on (almost) everything! Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.155.86 (talk) 17:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A question

Hi! I wanted to know opinions about the language in the article I had edited. I'm not an Englisman and I wanted to know my competence in language. I've put article for peer review but nobody answered. Tell me please if it is possible to do a thing I want or not?--Slav9ln (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, which is the article? Thuresson (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Judging by this user's contributions, the article in question is Sergei Bodrov, Jr..—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian translation

Something about perestroika, glasnost, October and democracy.

Hi, I'm writing about Czechoslovak history and I would appreciate if somebody could translate the Russian words in this post stamp? Thanks in advance. Thuresson (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

ПОЧТА СССР: USSR Postal Service

5к: 5 kopeks

Перестройка — продолжение дела Октября: Perestroika is the continuation of the October initiatives

Ускорение, демократизация, гласность: Acceleration, democratization, glasnost

Hope it helps!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Thuresson (talk) 20:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

or vs. nor

This question came up in a current FAC. Should one use or or nor in the following sentence? "No damages or/nor fatalities were reported." Plasticup ^T/C 20:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

How about change things around and say Neither damages nor fatalities were reported. 70.165.110.211 (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)