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April 14

Bank cheque present etiquette

I have a tricky etiquette question. It’s not really reference desk fodder, but I know of no better place to ask.

Close to 2 years ago, I gave a member of my family some money for an important birthday. I’m not in regular contact with them, I know little about their lifestyle or interests, and I had to travel interstate to the party, so all in all I thought a small token gift plus some money was the most practical option. The money was in the form of a bank cheque. They seemed very appreciative when I gave it to them. So far, so good.

A month or so ago, I got a letter from my bank, saying the cheque had never been presented, and the funds were being returned to my account. Now I have a problem.

I’m loath to discuss the matter with the person, for fear of embarrassing them. They may have mislaid the cheque or it may have been accidentally destroyed, and I can understand them not wanting to contact me to ask for the money again. Or it may be sitting in a bottom drawer waiting for them to get around to banking it (which would be fruitless now, but they don't know that); or they may even have been offended by it. These last 2 are much less likely, but you never know. What if they finally bank it, and discover the cheque has been cancelled in the meantime? They may well think it was of my doing, and I’ll then become the Indian giver from hell, in their eyes.

If I just send them the money again, that’s also likely to embarrass them. I could do it under cover of a letter where I acknowledge these things sometimes happen in even the very best of families, and it’s no big deal. But maybe they never wanted the money to begin with, and deliberately chose not to bank it. Better to know this before I do anything. But that involves asking them if there was a problem, and if there was but they didn’t want to talk about it, then I’m creating a new problem by forcing the issue. And you know me, I never force issues. :)

Or maybe they'd go "What a godsend, I really need that money. I’d completely forgotten about it. Thanks so much for letting me know. How quickly can you get it to me?"

Or maybe they’d totally forgotten about it, but don’t need it at all.

But whether they need it or not is really beside the point. I gave it to them, I wanted them to have it, and nothing’s changed as far as that’s concerned. I feel that I should at least suffer pangs of guilt if I’m going to get to keep the money. Silly, I know, but that’s me.

Maybe I should just shut up, do nothing, and treat it as a windfall gain, on the principle that it was their responsibility to bank it before they had a chance to lose it. And it was, as I say, almost 2 years ago now and nothing’s been said. But that still feels pretty mean and penny-pinching to me.

If I don’t make some attempt to either get the money back to them or at least discuss it with them, it’s almost tantamount to never having given it to them in the first place. That’s certainly so in monetary terms. My gestures of travelling to be at the party and handing over my present can never be erased, though, and maybe that’s all that really matters in the end. “It’s the thought that counts” (he rationalises).

So, what, if anything, to do, and how to go about it, or not? I’d appreciate any helpful perspectives on this. Maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, maybe not. -- (JackofOz =) 202.142.129.66 (talk) 00:07, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you should do anything. The check won't be honored by the bank if they do ever present it - and that's not your fault. Perhaps they don't need the money - maybe "the thought was what counted" - maybe they think you need the money more than they do - or maybe they simply forgot all about it - maybe they were so amazed that you gave them money that they framed the check instead of presenting it! If you really feel bad about it - wait until the persons' next birthday and buy them something extra-special. Gift-giving is about the moment...if it drags on, forget it. SteveBaker (talk) 00:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

We need another ref desk, called "Dear Gabby" or some such. :) In my opinion, you're overthinking this. If it were me, rather than playing any guessing games, I would simply give them a friendly call or letter and advise them that a check you gave them 2 years ago was never cashed, that the bank has nullified it, and ask them what they want done about it. I don't see why it would be all that embarrassing - probably just a good laugh. If nothing else, it's an excuse to contact them, assuming you're on good terms with them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Steve. I don't think you have any further obligation. If you had given them some other sort of open voucher, say a book token, and they had not used it, for whatever reason, you would not have thought about it. When one gives a gift it is behoven on the receiver to take care of it if they want to use it. When you gave the gift it no longer was your property or responsibility. OK, I understand your kind concern, but life is not a perfect process and as Steve suggests there will be another time for you to rectify the situation. Richard Avery (talk) 07:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Jack, you've got no duty to do anything about it. If you want to re-send a cheque, I wouldn't expect anyone to be embarrassed by a note with cheque attached saying "bank told me cheque wasn't cashed, in case you've misplaced it, here's a copy". I personally would tend to resend the cheque if it was for a younger relative, but forget about it if it was for an older one. --Psud (talk) 08:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

And if the significant birthday was a 21st or lower, I (as a 32 year old) would definitely resend the cheque. (but I'm probably overly sentimental) --Psud (talk) 08:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I would do nothing. If ever in the presence of the person again I would mention what subsequently transpired. That would include even being in the phone presence of the person, but more applicably in face to face presence. I wouldn't make a special phone call to address this. Only if on the phone for some other reason or no reason at all would I eventually mention it. And if in the company of the person at some point in the future, I think it would be an appropriate topic of conversation to bring up. Bus stop (talk) 08:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

If the bank cancelled the check, then its due to procedure, in this case is highly likely that if they try to cash the check their bank can see that it has expired. Joneleth (talk) 16:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I am missing why they would be embarrassed over their failure to deposit the check. Personally I'd mail them a replacement with a note that the bank had notified you that the original check had never been presented and is no longer valid; though I agree with the above that you have no duty to do so. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It was, as I say, a bank cheque, not my own personal cheque. They could never have cashed it as such; it needed to be deposited to their account, and the funds would become available within a few days, unless they chose to pay a fee to have it cleared quickly. Typically, when one deposits any sort of cheque, it's stamped and accepted by the teller, and the first time the customer knows there's any problem is when they receive a letter from the bank saying the cheque they deposited last week has been cancelled. I'd hate for that to happen to me. I might realise that it's just a time issue, because all cheques become what's known as "stale" (i.e. not worth the paper they're written on) after a certain period. But it's still unsatisfactory, because I deposited the cheque in order for the funds to be transferred to my account, and that hasn't happened, and unless I contact the giver, it's not going to happen.

Had it been my own personal cheque (theoretical since I haven't used personal cheques for at least 5 years), the funds would never have left my control to begin with, until such time as the cheque was presented, which normally would have been within a short time after giving it. But because it was a bank cheque, I forked out cash for it at the time - and now, 2 years later, the funds have come back to me. I'm that much better off now than I was a couple of weeks ago. And I feel I shouldn't be.

Look, I think it's very unlikely that the cheque would still be in their possession after all this time, so the above scenario isn't going to happen. If it happened to me, there's no way I'd be getting in touch with the giver, and I'd just put it down to experience. The most likely thing is the cheque was left in their pocket, it went into the wash and was pulped, 2 years ago, and it's been long forgotten. This person has been on at least 3 overseas holidays since then, so it's not as if they're exactly skint. That was never the issue. I gave this money away, so to me it's not my property any more. Yet I have it back - but not because they gave it back. I didn't steal it off them, but it feels not much different than if I had. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:12, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Baseball Bugs and with Comet. Good excuse to be in touch with them. If I were in their shoes (and I have been), that is what I would most appreciate. If another cheque goes astray, you just forget about it. Kittybrewster ☎ 21:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I think gifts don't matter. The proper perspective in which to put gifts are as things of secondary importance. Did you give it to him? Did he see it? Did he recognize its identity? Did he read the amount of money inscribed on the piece of paper? Were there pleasantries exchanged over occurrence? I think it has to be said that all of the preceding is the essence, and all that transpires subsequently is of secondary importance, from the perspective of you, the gift-giver. Yes, you have questions. Yes, you want to know what happened. I don't think it is out of the question for you to contact them now about it. But I think subterfuge should be employed. I think you would want to pretend that there is a primary reason why you are contacting them, made up, of course, and then only as an afterthought would this subject be brought up. I don't think focus is welcome on a tender moment that is over. It is easier for you and easier for the recipient that any inquiry about that un-cashed check be relegated to a minor afterthought. But hey, maybe I'm thinking about this too much. Bus stop (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Me too, Bus stop.

Thanks to all for your valuable insights. I will take them all into account when I decide what, if anything, I'm going to do. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I thought of a possibly-humorous way you could do this. If you happen to have a carbon copy of that check, and if they do this kind of thing in Australia, you could create a fake version of one of those "missing persons" mailings (they also used to put them on milk cartons) and send it to your friend, with a picture of that check!

And in case you think I made that up, no, I got it from a comic some years ago (don't ask me who) who said that he got a small carton of milk on his plane flight, and on it was a picture of his luggage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Robozzle

Does anyone know where I can find solutions (direct solutions not hints) to Robozzle.com ? Joneleth (talk) 11:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh my, thank you for turning me on to this game. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

De Javu

Recently when experienceing Dejavu I have found that if I am quick I am able to remember forwards, so that I will be able to know what is going to happen in the next 3 seconds or so. Is this a normal reaction to the phenomenon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 12:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, in my experience, but we call it predicting not 'remembering forward'. You are not remembering anything, it just feels as though you are. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Humans are habitual creatures, we have often been in the exact same situations before that we are in now, if the current situation feels close enough to a prior one you get such strong predictions about whats going to happen that it feels like a memory. Joneleth (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Btw, the letter split is déjà vu, literally meaning "already seen". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Happens to me all the time. I think it's called déjà entendu, but google search has been made tough as that seems to also be the name of a popular album. AlexHOUSE (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Dunno, but déjà entendu should mean you've "already heard" it, literally.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

what kind of economy china is?

what kind of economy china is? wheather it is mix-economy, marx... or what??? and wheather there where any other econonmy policy in china before 1970? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spatel4patel (talk • contribs) 14:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

If by "China" you mean the People's Republic of China, then we have an article on it: Economy of the People's Republic of China. We also have an article Economic reform in the People's Republic of China that explains how they're different now than they were before the 1970s. If you mean some China other than the PRC, then check the disambiguation page Economy of China. Buddy431 (talk) 14:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a safe bet that anyone asking about Taiwan will call it Taiwan (or maybe Formosa). An exception would be people from China, and they aren't likely to post such a Q here, as they already would know the answer. StuRat (talk) 15:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

What would people from China call it? Or do you mean people from Taiwan, who might call it "Republic of China"? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

People from China probably call it "that treasonous breakaway province of ours". StuRat (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, people from China call Taiwan 'Taiwan', believe it or not - simply because that's the name of the place. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

That's strictly true only for the geographic entity, which is probably sufficient for most people. The name of the state that governs that geographic entity is Republic of China, but it gets called other things too, such as Chinese Taipei. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm saying that the place is called Taiwan, and all of the Mainland Chinese people I know (whether they agree with the place being a separate political entity or not) call it Taiwan. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

But people often go too far, and refer to "the Taiwanese Government" or "the President of Taiwan". There ain't no such things. There is a Taiwanese government (with the name Government of the Republic of China), and there is a Taiwanese president (whose title is the President of the Republic of China). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Sneaker type shoes with "either" composite, or "steel-toes......

I work and stand on my feet 8-12 hours a day. We are required by OSHA to have toe protection on our shoes. In the past, and even now, steel-toed shoes were the most common option for toe protection from heavy objects.

Some shoe manufacturers now advertise "composite" toe protection. I understand that there are astm standards for shoes that meet OSHAs' reqirements.

My questions are: A. What are ASTM requirements? B. How do they compare composite to steel-toed shoes? C. What composite toe shoes meet ASTM standards. D. What shoes manufacturers offer composite toes shoes that meet standards; and do they provide that information to potential buyers?

Thank you R.K.Click (email address redacted) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.28.245.45 (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Please don't use all caps. StuRat (talk) 17:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Is it legit to reduce the volume level of the above post by transmuting to lc?--BandUser (talk) 00:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is, and I have done just that. Astronaut (talk) 11:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I've removed your email to prevent people from spamming you. Hopefully someone will be by to give you a more complete answer, but I can provide you with something regarding question 3. The key thing to most safety footwear (in terms of OSHA regs) is to simply see the rating for the shoe/boot. For example, in Canada, footwear is given a rating by the CSA and this rating system works the same for composite and steel. In my particular workplace, I'm required to wear "green tag" CSA-approved footwear; what material that footwear is made of makes no difference - just the rating. To answer your 4th question, I would say that virtually all safety footwear manufacturers will have lines of composite safety enhancements. Even the old-style steel "shank" that used to be required for construction and many other high-risk activities has largely been replaced with a rather neat composite layer which bends like rubber but blocks punctures better than steel. I would contact a nearby safety footwear store and ask them to send a rep over to talk to you or your company. In my experience those guys necessarily have a great understanding of local regs and can walk you through any odd corners. Matt Deres (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Spending a day in Kraków...

I have done some queries on the Deutsche Bahn website on how to get from Kraków to Spittal an der Drau, and found a perfectly suitable train: it leaves Kraków at 10 PM, and arrives in Vienna at 6 AM the next day. Then I have to change trains once again in Villach, and I'll arrive at Spittal an der Drau before noon.

The problem here is that I have to check out from my hotel ten hours before the train leaves. What am I supposed to do in that time? I will be carrying the bulk of my luggage in a big backpack, with only my essential documents and my camera in lighter packages. Can I leave the backpack at Kraków railway station in some sort of storage locker for ten hours and then come pick it up later? JIP | Talk 18:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

There are storage lockers as well as a reliable luggage storage service. I don't know how much they cost, but surely not a lot. I think there is some kind of a tourist information facility at or near the station to provide you with a map, and if not, there is a fixed map nearby to guide you to the Old Town, Wawel and Kazimierz for a walk. If you need any more help or info regarding Kraków you may contact me directly via my talk page. Cheers! --Ouro (blah blah) 18:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I spent a couple of days in Kraków in September 2009. I found the Jewish history in the Kazimierz district interesting and had a wander around the Old Town with the Market Square at its centre (the Sukiennice was closed for renovation, though it might have since reopened). There is also an extensive tram & bus system if you want to see something a little too far away to walk. In the evening, I had no trouble finding places to eat and there are plenty of bars. I particularly enjoyed the candle-lit bar/restaurant "Dawno Temu na Kazimierzu" at Szeroka 1 in Kazimierz. Astronaut (talk) 19:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Kraków is a beautiful city well worth spending time visiting. If you have time, you might try to spend an additional day or two there. There are lots of interesting sights and some nice places to eat and drink. Marco polo (talk) 19:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Before you carry you backpack to the train station, you may wanna ask at the hotel, if they have a storage room or lockers where you can leave your bags even after you check out. If they do, it may be even safer and perhaps also free of charge. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes to the above, your hotel should be willing to keep your bags after checkout. I'm a Pole living in Australia most of my life. I have been to Krakow twice in the last 8 years, on each occasion with different Australian travelling companions. The Highlight of both trips, still most fondly recalled by my companions was a trip out to Wieliczka Salt Mine. Krakow and wawel are really fantastic examples of a medieval town, but the salt mine is quite unlike anything you are ever likely to see anywhere else in the world. I highly recommend it. By far the easiest way to see it is to find a local in Krakow to drive you out, from memory a couple of years ago I paid someone AU$60 to take us there and bring us back after the tour, which only takes a couple of hours. From memory the drive was about 30 minutes. So it won't take up the whole day, you can still go back to town and see some more stuff.. There are busses which are a lot cheaper, but trying to figure out which bus to take and where to get off and where to go wasn't very easy. So if you have the money it's really worth findng someone with a car, we had no trouble, there was several people hanging around the station offering their services.. Obviously just take basic precautions like ask to see ID and don't give the whole fee in advance and don't leave stuff in their car, but in general i think it's pretty safe. If you really don't want to get out of town, I recommend going to see the Wawel Cathedral and St._Leonard's_Crypt which are quite awesome. There is also a fantastic medieval armoury exhibit there if you are into that kind of thing. Vespine (talk) 23:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Not wanting to contradict Vespine, at the same time agreeing that a trip to the salt mine in Wieliczka is definitely worth it - but it will take longer than a couple of hours. It's best to plan an entire day or at least for it and not hurry through. Wieliczka lies 20-30 miuntes outside of Kraków and there are literally kilometres of walkable corridors underground there. Plus, take time to stop for photos and listen to the guide, take in the atmosphere and lick the walls ;) --Ouro (blah blah) 06:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I want to have my own bussines but i don't have much money, which is easier and cheaper?

i want to build something commercial, right now i don't have much money because i'm a foreign exchange student(Mexico) and i don't have much technical skills and i dont want to pay someone to build a website for me because it cost too much.so i want to build something easy and simple because of my lack of technical skills so which is easier and cheaper to build: a comercial website,a social network,a comercial forum or a comercial blog. I'am not working right now so i have free time.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.16.77.4 (talk) 19:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The very same question was asked a few days ago. Do you need additional advice beyond the answers supplied then? Astronaut (talk) 19:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.16.77.4 (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Then you are going to have to ask a specific question. We already answered your earlier paragraph. What exactly do you need more help with? Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

In the current business climate, to make easy money you need either to be a genius or to be lucky enough to hit on the right idea that hasn't already been exploited. If I could advise you on this, I would already be making my fortune! If you have no technical skills in website design then you should probably look elsewhere for a good use of your spare time. Very few people make money easily. Dbfirs 21:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

No pain, no gain. If you don't have skills - or the money to pay people who have skills - then your only chance is to learn some skills. The Internet is simply jam packed full of places that'll teach you skills - check out our very own Wikiversity, for example. You mentioned building a web site - OK well, if you have an hour to spare, here is my one hour guide to learning enough HTML to make yourself a web site. Nothing too fancy - but it's very good start. The problem here is that you need to start...just hoping someone will tell you how to make money is crazy. But it's perfectly possible to make a boatload of money from a good idea - the trouble is, you have to have the idea! But with even the simplest of web skills - and a clever idea - you can make a lot of money. For example:

• The guy who had the idea to make a 1000x1000 pixel image and put it on his web page - and to sell advertising for $1 per pixel. It's at http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/ and we have an article about it: The Million Dollar Homepage...the idea "went viral" and he sold all million pixels (and therefore made a cool million dollars) in a matter of weeks! Of course there were copy-cat pages everywhere within no time - and you can find them everywhere - but none of them are making serious money from it because the market is tapped out - it was a one-time idea.

• One red paperclip - the owner of the site needed someplace to live - and he had a clever idea. He started with a red paperclip and offered to trade it with someone for something else (a fish-shaped pen as it happens)...which he offered to trade for something else (a designer door knob!) which he traded for a camp stove...which he swapped for a generator, an "instant party", a snowmobile a trip to Yahk, British Columbia, a van, a recording contract, a year's rent, an afternoon with Alice Cooper, a KISS motorized snow globe, a role in a film...and finally a two-story farmhouse! So for very little work and a clever idea, he got a free house! Again, there have been a million copycats - none of them got beyond the "junk office equipment" stage.

But those ideas have been taken - you can't make them work a second time. So, if you could come up with a really clever idea - you possibly earn a million dollars or get a free house...but the snag is that we can't guess what that idea might be - that's something you have to dream up for yourself. SteveBaker (talk) 01:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Merchant Marine Engineering Officers

In 1896 the US Congress passed a bill making Licensed Engineers Officers of equal rank and status with the Deck Officers. What was the name and number of this bill, and which section of the United States Code is this in? This bill included the Navy also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SherwoodNM (talk • contribs) 22:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Haven't found the bill yet, but the US code is Title 46, Part 10 Zoonoses (talk) 12:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

April 15

Wikipedia vs global thermonuclear warfare

In the unfortunate event of total GTW resuling in mass extinction of the human race, what precautions have the Wikimedia foundation taken to preserve all the Wikipedia encyclopedic entries for the few survivors of such an event?--BandUser (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There's no record of the foundation having taken any action whatsoever to consider the means of survival of its assets post a global thermonuclear war. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, so that would be a lot of effort down the drain then?--BandUser (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Global thermonuclear warfare: a lot of effort down the drain. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It is possible to download a current snapshot of the encyclopaedia. Do your civic duty and act now - you never know, it could already be too late! 94.168.184.16 (talk) 00:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This guy is on the job, it's taken care of. Hopefully this mitigates your fear of global thermonuclear war. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This scenario is why Flagged Revisions are so desparately needed - so that the good knowledge of wikipedia can be cast in stone, preferably marble, and withstand thousands of years of weathering, so that the next alien race that comes along can try and decipher them. They'll probably conclude that the earthlings were anihilated in a global edit war. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget to include glasses for those with poor eyesight. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Sadly the problem isn't taken care of by that guy who printed all that stuff - he only printed the featured articles - that's like 0.1% of the whole encyclopedia - and it only covers the English version! The full printed English Wikipedia is over 1000 volumes and would look like this:

3536 volumes 18 stacks

(The guy standing next to them is naked because he's the only human to have survived the apocalypse and he hasn't found the articles: Cotton, Weaving, Needle, Button and Zipper yet)

SteveBaker (talk) 04:22, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

That's his appearance after exposure to radiation. Either that, or he's a shadow of his former self. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

You sure he's naked? Looks to me like he's wearing long underwear, a hoodie, and mittens. All dressed up for nuclear winter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:46, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Aliens discovering the image will deduce that the last humans were deformed having only one raiseable limb, webbed fingers and clearly no offspring-bearing capacity. The latter explains their extinction. The inscription above the human is presumably its name. The item on the right is one of their computers whose surprisingly advanced technology still survives.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

When making a "Post-Apocalypse Edition" of Wikipedia, the size could be condensed somewhat by omitting some articles not necessary to survival or betterment of knowledge. For instance, any articles on cities such as Chaussy, Val-d'Oise could be removed since... well, after a nuclear war, it's probably been laid to waste, if not by nuclear attacks on nearby cities then by nuclear winter (apologies to anyone who hails from Chaussy, Val-d'Oise)). I'd hate to be the person that decides which articles are notable for that particular edition, though.--WaltCip (talk) 04:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Ironically, places like Bill, Wyoming might be the only parts of civilization left unscathed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There would certainly be a lot of work needed to add {{outofdate}} messages as well. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• BEST REFDESK TOPIC EVER. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

So it would seem that BandUser s have their uses after all? :) --79.76.228.211 (talk) 10:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This gives me a snapshot of all the article text (no images). As long as at least one of those readers survives (and one can find or make batteries) you'd continue to have easy access to all of the Wikipedia text. Dragons flight (talk) 05:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Reminds me of some woman I heard recently who said, "Ah yes, the internet. I've heard of that. I must download it one weekend and have a good read of it." True story. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 06:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe she has a really fast connection. Meanwhile, in the post-WWIII environment, I wonder how long it will take to get electrical power back up and running? Unless they intend to run the internet via generators. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This shouldn't be an issue as long as we follow Dr. Strangelove's plan. Nuclear reactors concealed in deep mine shafts could easily provide electricity for several decades. The issue would simply be deciding who would stay and who would go.--WaltCip (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

But if only Wikipedia survives, then everything on it will be uncited, so the administrators will of course have to delete it all... --Hence Piano (talk) 09:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Assuming any admins survive. And have electrical power. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There's a similar, somewhat more serious discussion on another ref desk. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, funny how we tend to get bunches of very similar questions all around the same time. Might have something to do with the recent nuclear summit. Or has 2012 been in the news again and I've missed all the fun? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Terminal Event Management Policy. Hut 8.5 14:11, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Wow! An answer!--KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Is that document real? Has Wikipedia really arranged to be transmitted to 300 other stars in the event of a ELE? APL (talk) 16:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

The article was begun on April 1, 2009, and currently says "intended as humor", so I'll go out on a limb here and say the answer to your questions is "NO". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Phew! Got us all worried, then! It gave us lists of priorities for each level of warning, and mentioned codes of conduct - something many people have a hard time with at the best of times, never mind when we've only got minutes to live... And what about copyright?! :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Of course. Got me. I guess long-term use of Wikipedia has conditioned me to skip past the warning boxes at the top. APL (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It's a well executed gag. Parts of it seem completely reasonable. APL (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I vote it the best page on Wikipedia. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

A couple of days ago, Obama cautioned the public not to expect an immediate recovery response in the event of a nuclear holocaust. I would classify that kind of comment as eternal American optimism in the face of unspeakable disaster. I heard years ago that the IRS had a contingency plan for collecting taxes in the event of a holocaust. Like anyone's still going to be working at their regular jobs as if nothing happened. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey! The tax code doesn't have an exemption for people who lost their jobs in a nuclear Armageddon and are now shoveling pig crap for a local feudal warlord. APL (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course, even from a current policy standpoint nothing is that simple. We don't necessarily delete referenced material just because the link is dead. And for paper references, 'I can't find it' or the reference being obscure and very difficult to find isn't necessarily a resonable justification for deleting it and the referenced material. In other words, deleting the material just because the other references may no longer exist isn't a clear cut issue even from current policy and mass deleting such material without consensus is likely to be seen as disruptive and leading to bans. Nil Einne (talk) 18:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the OP is hilarious, with a sparkling wit that others would do well to envy. </sarcasm> ╟─TreasuryTag►stannator─╢ 19:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It was meant as a serious question. If other editors have chosen to take it less than seriously, thats up to them--79.76.191.129 (talk) 12:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Driving a child toward success?

While some people believe in encouraging children to plot their own course in life, there are still many parents that heavily try to shape the course of their children's lives. For example, I know a medical doctor who drove all four of his children to enter medicine. In other cases, you hear of children being groomed to take over the family business.

Are there studies about the impact of this kind of parental direction setting and pressure? Do children end up more/less financially successful, more/less happy, more/less neurotic, etc., as a result of parents driving them towards a particular career? Is it better (on average) to drive your kids or to let them find their own way?

I'd greatly prefer to see research studies rather than anecdotal judgments. Dragons flight (talk) 07:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

“It is said that family firms go from "clogs to clogs in three generations", an aphorism based on the observation that it takes one generation to found a business, the next to build it, and the third to spend it. “

Prof. Nigel Nicholson has considered this problem: Keeping your business in the family. However, if you can organise along the lines he suggests, then that can lead to the durability of the type seen in long established family firms like the Windsor's. Even so, they have never found things plain sailing and their latest problems (some along the lines asked by the OP) have been the subject of a book. The Firm: The Troubled Life of the House of Windsor . --Aspro (talk) 10:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Selective Perception in SPORTS

Greetings! For an article about "selective perception", "modern mythology", and "false pattern recognition" in todays Sports I'd like to know whether there is a specific team in the US (ANY sport) which has a "media-reputation" of "guaranteed good luck" (winning games in the last minute; lucky, when matches are set up by random-picking of teams, lucky when picking rookies, etc.). A type of Gladstone-Gander-Sports-Team whose reputation ist continuously fed by the media (because media people love those stories). Any suggestions? Could be several, but emphasis is on THE Team that draws most attention in this respect. Thanks! 213.169.161.126 (talk) 09:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

New York Yankees. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Is there a special term which describes this "luck"? Like Luck of the Yankees or similar? (The word "era" in the Yankees-article is sometimes written "Era", sometimes "era" - even in the headlines. Is that intended ?? Its a term, isn't it?) 213.169.161.126 (talk) 10:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

How about "team of destiny", a term which was used decades ago to describe the Yankees. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Then theres "The team that uses its financial weight to raid every other team in the league for the best players since baseball has no real salary cap and thus has no way for most small market teams to hold on to any good players and compete for a championship except every once in a while as a fluke". I know, its an unweildy name, but its somewhat accurate... --Jayron32 19:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Then go with the executive summary, "The Evil Empire". The Yankees have always done it this way, from Ruppert-and-Huston to Topping-and-Webb, and then the Steinbrenners. They were willing to spend whatever it took to win, and were in position to be able to do so. But there's another factor, and that is not just spending, but having the know-how to get the best players they could. Which leads to the Branch Rickey quote, "Luck is the residue of design." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I know it's not US, although they are owned by Americans (the Glazers), but Manchester United has a reputation (among supporters of opposing teams) for winning matches in the 5th minute of extra time. The reputed practice by referees of giving huge amounts of extra time in Man Utd games has led to this being known as "Man U time". This is not merely a perception: this article tells us that it actually happens. [1] There are other perceptions in the English Premier League, such as the top teams get all the decisions going their way; opposing teams will never get a penalty at Anfield (home of Liverpool FC). However, I can't find any evidence to support these. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Great! Any example is fine. The Info is for a colleague who writes about "Bayern-Dusel" (the luck of FC Bayern München; soccer), which is used extensively in the media (if it comes in handy - and which has been analyzed by a sports psychologist). Should there be analogies in other sports, one would expect (a) a team from a big city (b) leading (over time) in championships (or at least being very successful (c) polarizing fans . I will look into Man U and the other links. 213.169.161.126 (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I would think the Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team would be what you are looking for. When they were good, they were known for having "the luck of the Irish." See Hail Flutie. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Edna St Vincent Millay society

Just curious, not asking for legal advice or anything... the Millay Society webpage says "The Millay Society owns the copyrights to the literary estate of Edna St. Vincent Millay. All published and unpublished writings, including songs, by Millay and her family are protected under copyright law." How is this possible, since a good portion of her writing was published before 1923? 128.194.250.125 (talk) 09:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Probably a blanket statement intended to protect the works that remain in copyright without having to specify. A 'catch-all' statement.Froggie34 (talk) 10:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Could also be what is sometimes called a "legal bluff". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It might be interesting for you to email them and ask. I'd personally be curious to see a summary of their response. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:27, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It may surprise you to learn that many countries do not have a 1923 cut-off for copyright. We scholars call such countries "not the USA". DuncanHill (talk) 17:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Both that society and Edna herself are American. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

If her work was published overseas,(I assume it was.) There may be foreign copyrights that are still valid. APL (talk) 03:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Without researching this, my default assumption is that Bugs is correct. See copyfraud. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Bacardi white rum

It is 42.86% v/v and 75% Alcoholic proof. I have a 60 ML with five or six ice cubes. Does it require further dilution? Will you call that drink strong? What is the best simple way (other than water) to take white rum? It's Bacardi Superior, that is, it is unflavoured. --117.204.84.253 (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

A "Light 'n' Stormy" only requires ginger beer and ice. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Bacardi and coca-cola is popular as is Bacardi and orange. 60ml is about 2.5 'measures' in a bar so that's a pretty strong drink to be drinking (though of course a lot depends on how long you take, how much overall you drink and so on). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I would call 75 proof with ice to be a bit strong for me. Rum and water/ice is not exactly everyone's idea of a good time. I would mix it with something else. I'm partial to Rum and Cokes which would work well with that. Even a little club soda would be preferable to me than to just take it straight on the rocks. But it's just personal preference. You can sip it on the rocks if you'd like. If you're thinking of serving it to company, though, you probably want to have a couple other options available. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There's always grog, and as a bonus you get to talk like a pirate. Acroterion _(talk) 16:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you're going for pirate authenticity, and less nastiness than actual grog, I recommend bumbo instead. I like it with a good dark rum, but I've found it to be a pretty acquired taste. Most people don't like gritty drinks. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Naturally, we have an article (well, a section of an article, anyway) on rum drinks. List of cocktails with rum. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

75 proof (note: not 75%) is not particularly strong for distilled liquor. Most rum, vodka, and whiskey is in the 80-100 proof range. For someone that enjoys hard liquor, Bacardi white rum with ice probably wouldn't be too strong. Beer and wine drinkers would probably find it too stiff.

Of course, 60 megalitres of rum is more than enough to kill an army, so you're going to want to share with about 300 million of your closest friends. ;) —D. Monack ^talk 09:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Most translated page?

Is there a list of pages with the most interlanguage wikilinks? For example, articles like cat have a huge list of other languages they can be read in, whereas other articles, like Oto Luthar are only available in 1 or 2 languages. Does such a list exist? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 13:09, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

One guy (now departed from Wikipedia for some reason or whatever) took care that the locality he was born in, Kurów, gets as many as possible. I don't know how many of these are still live, though. --Ouro (blah blah) 13:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I found the following numbers by counting the languages listed and adding 1 for English: United States 219; Wikipedia 214; English language 208; Bible 182; Earth 176; Internet 157; Computer 156; Google 106; Water 99; World 61. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Kurów also has 219 total languages. APL (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Please double check me, but by pasting the language list into MS Word for Religion I got 315. I do not know if Word count correctly handles Chinese style characters though. Googlemeister (talk) 15:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I did a line count on the Religion language list, and got only 147 (Plus one for english). APL (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess that we can conclude that word count does not correctly count the letters used in some languages. Googlemeister (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Also you double-counted languages like "Basa Jawa". APL (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

How are you counting? I'm copying into excel and getting different (smaller) numbers than you. Aaadddaaammm (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC).

I copied the whole list (I tried both copying the list on the web-page, and the list in the wiki-source and got the same answers.) into gVim (A text editor) and read off the line number of the final line. Then I added one. APL (talk) 18:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There's a list from a year ago at User:Emijrp/Most interwiked articles; that lists True Jesus Church as existing in the most languages. Warofdreams talk 22:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Ref desk

take it to Wikipedia talk:Reference desk
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
How can I go about campaigning for or why do we not have, a religion ref desk and a History ref desk but specifically a religion ref desk, imagine the interesting questions, and the funny answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 14:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Nope. The ref desk is not for stirring up controversy for its own sake. — Lomn 14:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC) The reference desk talk page is the place to raise suggestions on how to improve the reference desks. I'm not sure there is a need for 'more' desks, people seem happy to ask questions on the relevant (or sometime not relevant) desk, I doubt we get less 'religion' or 'history' questions because we don't have a desk specifically titled for them. infact a seemingly large number of the humanities-desk questions are history/religion related. Still if you want to campaign the talk-page is a good place to start194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Check out Wikipedia:Reference desk/How to create a new reference desk and use the Reference Desk talk page if you're still keen. --Sean 15:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC) It has been proposed before and well discussed. I have not seen any changes that would warrant me changing my opinion on the matter, but it would be erroneous to consider me alone as a statistically meaningful sample. Googlemeister (talk) 15:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Religion and History questions go to the Humanities desk. Unless that suddenly gets overwhelmed there's no point in splitting it up. (Adding new desks won't generate questions, obviously, just split up the ones we would have gotten anyway.) APL (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC) It's not at all obvious that having a separate desk won't generate questions. However, a specifically-religion desk could easily descend into a lightning rod of endless debates. Meanwhile, the "entertainment" desk could probably be folded back into the humanities desk (as it once was, if I recall correctly) as it doesn't really see a lot of traffic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC) And to add to the above, the reference desks are not (always) about creating funny answers. --Ouro (blah blah) 16:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC) To give some sense of the OP's general seriousness, check this out:[2] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC) WTF?!?! 24.189.90.68 (talk) 17:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC) That was pretty much my reaction also. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Beware the Genetic fallacy. An IP address does not necessarily identify a single user. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC) True. And IP users almost never identify who they are. So unless they do, they bear the consequences of what they, or other individuals on the same IP, have done - especially when it's recent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC) We wouldn't want a nasty thing to happen like a mob of Wikipedians all accidentally pinging 62.172.58.82 in Stevenage, would we BB ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC) That would be bad. It could force their internet engine (i.e. their hamster on a spinwheel) to overload and shut down. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC) This entire discussion should be on the Talk page, as 194.221 said way up there. Those later entrants who couldn't help themselves from piping up here all know better. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Legal matters in the press

When there are high-profile charges in the media, there's always a rebuttal from the politician or lawyer or high-profile individual -- "baseless", "nonsense" etc. Is there any tip-toeing around the specific words used in such publicized statements? i.e. are there certain phrases that are safe, regardless of the eventual outcome, or that would affect the legal proceedings or could come back to haunt the speaker? It certainly seems like there's a formula to this kind of response -- not sure if it's just tradition or if it is rooted in something else. 198.161.238.18 (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Consult All the President's Men and learn about the phrase "non-denial denial". It's a way of seeming to deny a charge while not actually denying it in plain English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! And of course there's an article, Non-denial denial. It explains the response I just read, of "bizarre claims" -- that's a non-denial denial. 198.161.238.18 (talk) 18:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Then there was the case of the first President Bush, who wanted to make a campaign pledge not to raise taxes, but didn't want to be bound by it. He said there would be "no new taxes". The press jumped on this immediately as allowing for increasing existing taxes, or adding new "assessments", "surcharges", "fees", etc. He then gave his famous quote: "Read my lips, no new taxes !", which was meant to stay ambiguous, but not seem to be so. It did manage to get him elected, but, when he inevitably did raise taxes, people blamed him for breaking his pledge, and he lost his re-election accordingly. StuRat (talk) 19:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Skidding aircraft

The stationary wheels of an aircraft as it lands skid when they hit the runway at speed, leaving black streaks of lost rubber on the surface. The tires screech and the cost of their wear must be enormous. What is a practical way to get landing wheels rotating before they touch the runway? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)]]

There are devices to do this. Involving either motors or little wind vanes. But typically they don't bother. The tire wear isn't that bad, and they'd rather not pay for the fuel needed to lift mechanism.

I don't have a cite, but I think some small planes have mechanisms like this, not to save tire rubber, but to kick up less dust when they land on a unpaved runway. But even so, I'm pretty sure it's rare. APL (talk) 19:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I've often thought that a very small motor could spin the wheel up to the proper speed over a few minutes. Without the need for rapid accel, and not needing to move anything but the wheel itself, it could be very small. Without this, there is a substantial amount of wear and tear on the tires, and they need to be replaced after only a few landings. All those tires, only used a few times each, can't be good for the environment. Also, if the small motor failed, then the plane would still land with a skid, same as before, so it wouldn't be critical equipment. StuRat (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This is an interview with American Airlines' former chairman. He says that there's more wear on the tire from taxiing than from the landing, and of the idea of spinup he says "Working with our tire suppliers, we've looked at ways to "spin up" a tire before landing to eliminate that result, but a workable solution remains elusive, principally due to the weight it would add." -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

it's cost economics. it's likely much cheaper to replace the wheels a bit more frequently than to implement and lift mechanisms to preserve the wheels. such is life. --Ludwigs2 20:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

There's apparently quite a lot of patents around and even a conspiracy theory that tyre companies bought out patents to suppress the technology discussed here. I think the most convincing argument for me is that if some company DID try to buy out patents, we'd still see this in the air force, or the air forces of china and/or russia. If there really was some cheap and easy way to save tyres on fighter jets, they wouldn't give a hoot about some patent in America or the EU. Install a little doo-hickey on a plane or cart dozens if not hundreds of big heavy tyres around? No brainer. Vespine (talk) 22:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

On small, light aircraft (Cessna's and such) and on lightweight fighters, pilots are instructed to dab the wheel brakes immediately after take-off to stop the wheels from spinning because the gyroscopic effects can adversely affect the handling of the plane. I presume that this would also be a reason not to spin the wheels up to speed on approach. However, for heavier planes, this is less likely to be an issue. On large jets, it's been proposed to use electrically powered wheels to drive the plane around the airport in order save fuel - if that idea ever succeeds, then it would be easy enough to use it to match the speed of the runway on landing. SteveBaker (talk) 23:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard of braking the wheels after takeoff in a light aircraft, but I guess it makes some sense. On airliners the wheels are automatically braked before retraction, not because of gyroscopic effects but to prevent any loose parts of the tyre damaging the inside of the wheel well. FiggyBee (talk) 10:41, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not an engineer, and have no knowledge of aerodynamics, so maybe I shouldn't post this, but, it seems to me a basic concept of physics that unless the wheel is made to spin at exactly the same speed as it will need to on contact with the tarmac when it will be load-bearing the weight of the plane, there will be a momentary clash of momentum(s) between the wheel and the runway, similar to a car crashing into a wall. the only difference being that unlike the car, the aero-wheel will be forced to spin at the revs demanded by the momentum of the plane - and in such circumstances, there is going to be an inevitable skid and burn of rubber. So why not instead have the runway converted into a gigantic treadmill that runs at the same speeed as a landing aircraft, where the revs are controlled automatically by the plane's auto-landing systems? Seems an easier solution to me - me NOT being an engineer? 92.30.6.53 (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

A giant rotating turntable could on its periphery receive aeroplanes at their landing speed, save them the bother of taxiing and later send them off on their next flight. Unloading and loading passengers, fuel and luggage would be a little complicated but soluble by curved Moving walkway(s) starting from the center of the turntable accessed via a tunnel below. The large area occupied by the turntable would be compensated by its high capacity for air traffic due to its ability to receive and dispatch airplanes in any direction. Crosswinds could be a thing of the past. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC) (updated)

I recall a story about spinning vanes being added to Spitfire (or possibly Hurricane) tyres during WWII. The extra rubber for the vanes was more than the amount of rubber they saved. Edit: now I think about it a Hurricane or Spitfire was only expected to last a few weeks, making any rubber saving irrelevant (the plane would be destroyed long before the tyres wore out anyway). Also, note that due to crosswinds, aircraft don't always land in a perfectly straight line (small aircraft can make uncoordinated landings to minimise this, but airliners generally don't for the comfort of passengers and the risk of scraping an engine). This lateral movement can scrape off a fair amount of rubber; I don't know if pre-spinning the wheels would make it better or worse! FiggyBee (talk) 04:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It would make initial adhesion better. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The device would be unnecessary for Kamikaze missions. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The Kamakaze weapons Nakajima Ki-115 and Ouka had no landing gear at all. FiggyBee (talk) 10:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

BTW, if you're interested in tyre life, a tyre will last about 200 landings on a super-heavy airliner like the Airbus A380, 300 on a smaller airliner like the Boeing 737, and 500+ landings on a small 4-place aircraft like the Cessna 182. Airliner tyres are usually retreaded half a dozen times, so you're looking at a typical lifespan of a few years for a tyre which makes one landing per day. FiggyBee (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It occurs to me that unless all the landing wheels could be somehow guaranteed to spin at exactly the same speed, there would be a real risk of the aircraft skidding or slewing off the runway. Much safer to have them all start spinning from zero.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:27, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

A pilot can't ensure that all the landing wheels make ground contact simultaneously and in general they change from skidding to rolling at different times. If one chose to develop an electric spin-up motor it could be controlled by an optical device to match exactly the relative speed of the runway. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

People I have known who worked on equipment located along runways at a major airport said the dust and grit from tires abraded by the scraping against the concrete as they go from zero rotation to high speed rotation during landing was considered a major health hazard. Spinning up the tires would thus benefit the environment. On the other hand, the scraping of the tire tread against the concrete must act to slightly slow down the forward motion of the plane, and synchronously rotating tires would necessitate greater braking action, meaning more wear on brake pads. There are also deceleration devices on jet engines, which lessens the added load that would be on brake pads. Edison (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I think they mainly reverse the engines and put the flaps up to brake. The sudden drag on non-spinning wheels when it lands must destabilize the aircraft somewhat. Depending on if the front wheel or rear wheels hit first, it would pitch forward by differing degrees. If they were spun-up first, then this shouldn't matter. StuRat (talk) 14:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know of any jets that are taildraggers but the "environmental" concern is pretty local (and silly), especially when you consider that the weight on a plane gets multiplied times every mile in fuel, which is overwhelmingly more important than some local rubber smoke on the runway. Shadowjams (talk) 09:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

They may not intentionally be "tail-draggers", but not ever landing goes perfectly. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You'd have big problems if you sat a multi-engine jet down on its front gear. That said, I would be curious to know exactly what happens if you do that. Is it a "we gotta repair it" issue, or a crash? Shadowjams (talk) 20:34, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The front gear is likely to collapse so the pilot ends lower than he wanted to. An example (video). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

collectable silver spoons with holder many years old, need info on them

I learned to make homemade biscuits standing in a chair when I was 5 years old. We never used any thing but WhiteLily flour. Back then you could save so many coupons and redeem for a gift. My mother, grandmother, and I colledcted a set of silver spoons. They appear to do Dutch but I am not sure. Any way I have lost one through the years and would love to be able to replace it if possible. I am now 57 and still use WhiteLily. please help me if you can. Thank you in advance for your kindness, I want to pass them to my only grandaughter whom I have taught to make biscuits.

Sincerely, Sylvia Richardson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvia Richardson (talk • contribs) 21:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried ebay? One can find just about anything on ebay. Googlemeister (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Their homepage http://www.whitelily.com/ContactUs/ has an option to contact the company. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

[3] has a pair of them on sale for $24 - and another one for $12. It looks like you could probably find a replacement rather easily/cheaply. SteveBaker (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

And you don't just get the one spoon for that much. According to a corollary of Murphy's Law, you'll find the old one as soon as the replacement is ordered. :-) StuRat (talk) 21:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Municipalities adjacent to Gladbeck

How many municipalities are adjacent to Gladbeck? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 21:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Four: Bottrop, Dorsten, Gelsenkirchen, and Essen. According to Gladbeck and de:Gladbeck. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

where can I see a floor plan for a mill house, house has two front doors, why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.4.177.130 (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Probably, it's been divided into two homes at some time in its life. Some of those old buildings are on the large side for modern families. SteveBaker (talk) 22:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

How many of the five mentioned municipalities are urban districts? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 07:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

"Urban district" is a strange term to use for German municipalities. The term referred to urban municipalities that were part of larger counties in England and Wales before 1974. These are not directly comparable with the German municipalities given this label in some of our articles. The municipalities given this label are called kreisfreie Städte in German. This means that they are the equivalent of Kreise, which are more similar to English counties than to English districts, in my opinion. Admittedly, the kreisfreie Städte are part of Länder or "states" and therefore not directly beneath the national government of Germany. However, Germany, unlike the UK, has a federal system of government, with the "states" handling many aspects of government handled in Westminster for England. So the kreisfreie Städte are, in terms of competences, more akin to the urban unitary authorities in England, such as Bristol, for example. The article in the English Wikipedia that covers kreisfreie Städte is Independent cities. That is how I think they should be labeled. Now, of the five cities listed above, three are kreisfreie Städte or independent cities. These are Bottrop, Gelsenkirchen, and Essen. The other cities are all part of Kreise. Marco polo (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Which district contains Gladbeck and Dorsten? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

How long is the border between Gladbeck and Dorsten? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

How many roads cross the border between Gladbeck and Dorsten? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Gladbeck and Dorsten are in the Kreis or district of Recklinghausen. The border between the two cities extends for about 400 meters. You can see a map showing this border here. No roads cross this border. However, if you look closely at the map, you will see that there seems to be a track through the woods along the border of Bottrop where it meets the border between Gladbeck and Dorsten. If you want to travel on an actual road between Gladbeck and Dorsten (or any other part of the district of Recklinghausen), you will have to pass through outlying sections of Bottrop or Gelsenkirchen. Marco polo (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

What about the Residenzpflicht? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 08:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is Bottrop an independent city, even if Recklinghausen is not an independent city? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 08:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

two weird questions boxed

OP indef'd as a sock
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
where is the grave of the man who discovered the metre rule where is the grave of the man who discovered the metre rule?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandy Fleur (talk • contribs) 23:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Can you please explain your question more clearly. What do you mean by "metre rule"? Is this a physical object, a unit of measurement, or a rule as in a law? In any of these cases, nobody "discovered" them, since they do not occur naturally. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC) The unit of measurement known as the meter was invented by John Wilkins (His meter was 3mm shorter than the modern one.) According to this source : "After four years' tenure of his bishopric, he died in the year 1672, at the age of fifty-eight, in Tillotson's house: he was buried in the churchyard of St Lawrence Jewry, his old vicarage. " Is this what you were looking for? APL (talk) 05:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC) The OP is the same one who put up the trolling "Lubbock" and "Dando" questions yesterday and the day before. Good enough grounds for ignoring this question as well, I suggest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC) giant sunfish (Ocean sunfish) are there any plaster cast or similar actual size of the sunfish mola mola in the uk?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandy Fleur (talk • contribs) 23:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC) --Fixed your link --Anon, 03:46 UTC, April 16, 2010. According to the article, it seems there has been 'some sightings of this fish in south-west England'. Some people have been saying that this is 'evidence of increasing marine temperatures' (quotes from the article). Sorry if you are on about a model, you're question wasn't too clear. (The reference to this statement is highlighted here. Hope this helps you in some way. --Chevymontecarlo. 05:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC) Did you mean to type "YOUR question" ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC) The OP is the same one who put up the trolling "Lubbock" and "Dando" questions yesterday and the day before. Good enough grounds for ignoring this question as well, I suggest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

April 16

stocks vs. Stock funds

Please help; my husband is enrolled in company 401(k), highest risk cat stock fund. I am trying to explain to him that he doesn't own the company stock, but rather is invested in a stock fund under his company's options. He thinks he owns $15000.00 of co. Stock. Everytime i try to explain it...We fight. How do i make him understand? Aggravated—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.87.221.12 (talk) 03:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Stock, Stock options and mutual fund should explain the the difference between them all. --Jayron32 04:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

There is a thick pamphlet called a prospectus that you were probably supposed to be provided before making your investment decisions. There should be one for each fund choice. Each one should explain its fund quite thoroughly. If you threw it away upon receipt, you can ask for another one from the company's 401(k) provider, or perhaps from the company itself. Note that although we don't do financial advice here, I would point out that the high-risk stock fund choice isn't always higher-risk than the choice of investing in the company's stock. The Enron scandal and collapse totally screwed a number of employees who had invested all their retirement savings in the company stock fund. When the company went bankrupt and the stock went to near-zero, they lost not only their job, but all their retirement savings. Here is an example of a guy who apparently lost over 90% of his retirement savings in this way. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I am wondering why you want to "make him understand". Kittybrewster ☎ 10:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

My bank offers one free (quite basic) investment counselling session to each account-holder. Perhaps such a session with an "expert" would settle the argument. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Show him his periodic (quarterly?) statements. --Nricardo (talk) 03:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian and the Lib Dems

I understand that The Guardian has a reputation as a left-liberal newspaper, and was unsurprised when they were lampooning the Conservatives recently ("Step Outside Posh Boy"), but in the last few weeks it seems like they are featuring a lot of positive coverage of the Liberal Democrats on their front page. Is the paper known to be especially favourable to that party (over say, Labour) or is it thought of as more non-partisan left? Thanks in advance, 86.45.150.20 (talk) 09:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I take it you've read The_Guardian#Stance and editorial opinion in the article you linked to, although it's not particularly helpful in deciding whether or not the paper is more pro-Labour or Lib Dem. FWIW I've read the Guardian all my adult life and I've always understood it to favour the Lib Dems. In the 2005 election, however, it endorsed Labour; see here. It'll be interesting to see who they back this time. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Richard, that's helpful. It may just have been the concurrence of the release of their manifesto and Clegg's universally-praised performance in the debate that accounts for my impression. 86.45.150.20 (talk) 10:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian has a brief summary of its own background. As the Manchester Guardian, it was a Liberal Party paper, then more recently has usually backed Labour - see [4]. At the 2009 European elections, it backed the Liberal Democrats, but also gave some support to the Green Party: [5]. Warofdreams talk 11:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Most people I talk to tend to consider the Lib Dems to be considerably to the left of New Labour. Personally, I don't have a clue, so I'd give an WP:OR warning. Presumably some source material could be found to back up or refute the claim. --Dweller (talk) 11:21, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

As Liberal Democrats#Ideology and internal factions points out, The Lib Dems have both social liberal and market liberal/libertarian factions. Libertarianism is often viewed^{[by whom?]} as right wing, while social liberalism is not, making a simple left/right answer a bit tricky. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember being a bit surprised (given that by American standards I tend to be considered rather right of center) when I took the Political Compass quiz, and the world political figure it put me closest to was Charles Kennedy, at that time the LibDem leader.

I attribute this in part to Kennedy being a "market liberal", but also in part to the fact (well, fact in my estimation) that Political Compass measures not so much your positions as your attitudes. My attitudes tend to be to the so-called-left of my actual positions. --Trovatore (talk) 21:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Responding to ^{[by whom?]} tag in AlmostReadytoFly's post: by self-described left-wingers.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 23:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

translation

I am looking for the english words, the german, sorry for the spelling is Raus and snel. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.59.90 (talk) 11:40, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Raus means out and snel means fast or quickly. Some of the first German I learned after bier. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

(ec)"Raus!" means "out!" or "go!", and "schnell" means "quick" or "quickly". FiggyBee (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

In other words, German for "GTFO". --Jayron32 13:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Under the volcanic ash cloud

Much of the airspace over north-western Europe has been closed due to the danger of aircraft engines ingesting the volcanic ash cloud. News reports suggest this cloud is high up in the atmosphere (10-15 thousand metres up) and is spread by strong winds at altitude, so why don't the aircraft fly at lower altitudes and under the ash cloud? Astronaut (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe they just don't want to risk it.Chevymontecarlo. 14:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Because they would run into each other. The airspace over Europe is very crowded, and they need to spread the planes out at various altitudes so they can fly over and under each other. Also, flying at lower altitude uses more fuel for long trips, since the air is denser. However, for short trips, you'd waste more fuel gaining altitude than you would save at altitude, so staying low is most economical. StuRat (talk) 14:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, at a guess, the risk/reward of operating in an uncertain and atypical environment. At least for commercial aviation, consider:

• Air traffic control isn't used to routing planes at low altitude
• Pilots aren't used to being routed at low altitude
• Airlines aren't used to budgeting for fuel usage at low altitude
• Aircraft can't avoid weather systems as easily at low altitude
• Private aircraft that don't have the latest safety equipment, don't rigorously follow flight plans, and generally muck about at random do operate at low altitude
• Potentially hazardous concentrations of volcanic dust may still be present at low altitude

Given the generally litigious nature of society, I can see why it's simpler (and safer!) to just shut everything down. Even before considering the dust problem, I don't think there's any good argument that commercial aviation should suddenly make a dramatic shift in how it operates. — Lomn 14:41, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that 'litigious' is the wrong word here. The airline industry is very sensibly risk-averse. If your plane crashes because of glass and ash in its engines, or even worse, hits another plane or other object, civil lawsuits are the least of your worries, and both BA and NATS know this. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Precipitation may also bring down some ash with it. So, if this was a permanent condition, I'm sure they would find ways to operate, but, since it will clear out in a few days, they'd rather just wait it out. StuRat (talk) 14:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Another problem is noise. The "inverted wedding cake" of airspaces around airports (mentioned at Airspace class (United States), for example) was designed in part to avoid having a 747 flying at 8,000 feet above elementary schools and such. The people wouldn't stand for it. Yet another problem is that if you're in level flight that close to the ground, there's less room for error. GA pilots fly at 12,000 feet and under all the time, but the big jets are bigger, more complicated, and having an additional 10,000 feet of air below you is a safety cushion. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:57, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I've wondered about the same thing; at least in Norway all emergency flights (ambulance planes, rescue choppers, etc) are grounded as well, couldn't they just fly at low altitude at least for shorter distances? Haven't seen it discussed in the news, but I guess Lomn's last point above (nobody knows the density at low altitudes) must be it... (a story that was in the news was that yesterday somebody near Bergen cut his hand nearly off, and had to take a six-hour ambulance ride across the mountains to Oslo, which has the competencies to sew it back on. That's where they normally use air transport...) Jørgen (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, if you did have a problem with volcanic ash ingestion stopping your engines, altitude would definitely be your friend! The few aircraft that have survived this have done so by blowing the stuff out of the engines in a dive and repeatedly trying to restart them. If you were flying low - you'd be dead before you had a chance to do a thing about it. SteveBaker (talk) 18:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Flights between Newquay in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly have been running as normal - [6] - because it's a short distance (about 80 miles?) and the planes fly below the ash at about 3,000 feet. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, small-plane (Britten-Norman Trislander) flights between Southampton Airport and the Channel Islands have been stopped, along with all other flights to/from the airport. Perhaps it's organisationally impractical to only selectively close an airport. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

That's interesting, given that the grounding of ambulance flights has possibly caused its first casualty (link in Norwegian Google translate ("båt" means "boat")), though the article seems to be inflating things a bit. Still, I think I'll tip the Norwegian newspapers off about the Cornwall case. Jørgen (talk) 20:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Air travel disruption after the 2010 Eyjafjallajökull eruption#United Kingdom mentions this (has for a while) and also the fact that the RAF search and rescue flights are still operating. I'm not sure why the Norwegian authorities decided to ground the ambulance flights, maybe the situation there is worse or they're more cautious. Nil Einne (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it relatively common to ground emergency helicopters for bad weather? APL (talk) 22:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Some points in the other discussion may be relevant, particularly the part about VFR. I presume quite a number of emergency helicopter flights are VFR Nil Einne (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Flight in permanently ash-filled air

So, if we did have a permanent, thick cloud of ash at all altitudes, what type of planes could we use ? I believe Nazi Germany experimented with rocket planes about the same time as jet engines, would those work ? I imagine radar would need to be used, as visibility would be poor. StuRat (talk) 18:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

See today's Icelandic volcano and air travel at the Science desk where such things as battery powered helicopters are discussed. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

If we had a truly permanent, thick cloud of ash at all altitudes, flying airplanes would be the least of our worries. See nuclear winter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say "world-wide". Perhaps a permanent ash cloud over Europe is just what we need to fight global warming. :-) StuRat (talk) 18:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

April 17

Empire State Building elevators

On which floors stop the Empire State Building elevators? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 09:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

All the floors are served by elevators, with the possible exception of service/mechanical floors. If you are asking about visiting the building as a tourist, there are special tourist elevators to take you straight to the 86th floor observation deck and a separate set of elevators to take you from there to the 102nd floor observation deck - see Empire State Building#Observation decks for some details, or the official website. If you have other business in the building, there are express elevators to the sky lobby on the 80th floor (I once visited this lobby because the tourist elevators were out of action that day). There may well be sky lobbies on other floors, but I'm having difficulty finding details of them. Between lobbies, local elevators serve every floor. Astronaut (talk) 12:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

But do any of the 73 elevators in the Empire State Building go to every floor ? If not, which floors do they go to ? StuRat (talk) 14:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe one of the freight elevators serves every floor. FWIW, when I was researching my first answer, I was looking at floor plans (I could only see plans for some floors with office space to rent) and noticed there were fewer elevator shafts higher up and some shafts had no doors on some floors. The passenger elevators are grouped into banks A-G. I don't know the exact plan of all the elevator shafts, but I do know there is some kind of sky lobby on the 80th floor.

• This PDF is a plan of the 5th floor. All elevator banks pass through this floor but only the 4 elevators in bank A and 2 elevators in bank G could stop here. In all, just 6 of 57 passenger elevators and all 4 freight elevators could stop here.
• This PDF is a plan of the 31st floor. Only elevator banks D-G pass through this floor (and rather strangely, one elevator from bank A), but only the 10 elevators in bank D and 2 elevators in bank G could stop here. In all, just 12 of 37 passenger elevators and both freight elevators could stop here.
• This PDF is a plan of the 61st floor Only elevator banks F & G pass through this floor, but only the 8 elevators in bank F and 2 elevators in bank G could stop here. In all, just 10 of 18 passenger elevators and the one freight elevator could stop here.

Where is Region 12?

For some reason the lyrics of a silly song I used to sing with the Boy Scouts came to mind. It's a version of Mary Had a Little Lamb, set to the tune of a Civil War marching song; the chorus goes

Hurrah for Mary!

Hurrah for the lamb!

Hurrah for the teacher

Who didn't give a ... particle

If all the lambs in Region 12 went marching off to school

Shouting out the battle cry of freedom!

But where is Region 12? The Boy Scouts of America article has regions, but they aren't numbered. Google searches suggest that it's an obsolete designation, but I couldn't figure out just what it designated.

Here's an image of a jamboree patch representing the region: http://oabsa.wikia.com/wiki/File:R12-logo.jpg . --Trovatore (talk) 10:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

This site suggests Hawaii, California, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming and Nevada. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks very much. That would be quite a few lambs. My father had remembered the song as all the lambs in Washington (where he grew up), and I think that scans considerably better than Region 11, wherein Washington was located according to the wiki you pointed me to. --Trovatore (talk) 10:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

International Mail to the UK

If I'm sending a letter to a friend in the UK, what am I supposed to write in the country section of the address? Is it UNITED KINGDOM or GREAT BRITAIN? I have found conflicting advice and no clear standard. If I'm supposed to write GREAT BRITAIN then what happens if my friend lives in Northern Ireland? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.46.47 (talk) 10:32, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Where are you writing from? As a UK/GB resident (of Wales), I would have thought that either is likely to be widely understood and acceptable (except that GB should not be used for Northern Ireland - in that case, I would suggest NORTHERN IRELAND, UK). Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget that postal workers are intelligent humans, too - they might have a standard for which name to use, but their primary purpose is to get letters where they belong as much as possible - and they'll have come across much more confusing addresses than this. Agreed with the above to specify Northern Ireland if that's where you're sending it...but the best advice would probably be to head to the post office and ask them. You could write it and send it there and then. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious if there is a standard that is independent of the sending country. I know that there are humans who sort the mail, but I'd like to know the best way to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.46.47 (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Either will get it there. I usually write "UNITED KINGDOM" when sending postcards home (which is pretty much the only time I send things to the UK from abroad). Worst case scenario, it takes a few days longer to get there because it goes via the wrong place (eg. you put "NORTHERN IRELAND" as the country and it gets sent to the Republic of Ireland who then send it Northern Ireland). --Tango (talk) 11:08, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

If you want to be pedantic about it you should use, "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". But UK will suffice. From Spain, I could use, "Reino Unido" as well, just in case there are any Spanish Postal workers who don't understand UK, but that would be an insult to them and would probably result in the correspondence being "lost in space". Strangely though, as one living in Scotland UK, I have met some Scottish tourists who insist on addressing their cards directly to Escocia from Spain or Ecosse from France without adding UK and I suspect that some of them might not reach their destination because the workers will have been accustomed to using UK in their sorting procedures. And despite living in Scotland, any cards or letters I get from the USA are invariably addressed to England or Britain, but they still arrive. 92.30.141.64 (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I lived in Spain for a number of years and sent all my mail with "Reino Unido", including several dozen Christmas cards each year and never lost a single one. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 07:52, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I expected to find a definitive list of country names to be used on post at the Universal Postal Union's website, but I haven't found one. The closest I've found is a list of Members in alphabetical order, which lists Great Britain as a heading, glossed as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", and listing "Guernsey", "Isle of Man" and "Jersey" within it. But I don't think that list is normative. --ColinFine (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

If the sorting office doesn't know what an address means they send it to a dead letter office or similar. The people there are very experienced at interpreting strange addresses and won't have any problem interpreting any of the examples you give. --Tango (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The French, where I live, demand Angleterre. This covers all the countries in the UK, plus the off shore islands. Annoys the Scots, Welsh & Irish more than somewhat!!Froggie34 (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, when I'm sending postcards home, I always mark them ENGLAND... ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 14:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Demand? Surely they still send the letter to the right country as long as they can understand it. --Tango (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Some mail sorters are not human. Also, postal codes are supposedly unambiguous. (See also http://globalpostalcodesystem.info/.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:32, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Postal codes are only unambiguous within a country or when combined with a country abbreviation (as is sometimes done in continental Europe). That "global postal code" site sounds like one of those things that people might invent without any real hope that anyone would start using it.

Canada Post has a list of acceptable "international designations" that includes NORTHERN IRELAND as well as "UNITED KINGDOM (GREAT BRITAIN)" and says the former is included within the latter. It does not explain whether the parentheses indicate an alternate fork form or what.

In practice I would use "ENGLAND, UK" for England and "NORTHERN IRELAND, UK" for Northern Ireland and I've never had a problem. --Anonymous, 19:30 UTC (copyedited later), April 17, 2010.

So what happens if you send your post from a country that doesn't normally use the English alphabet? For example, if mailing from Japan would one need to put "イギリス" or will just having "UK" ensure it gets to the right country? Astronaut (talk) 04:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I can only speak for China, where, when sending letters to non-Chinese character countries (e.g. Japan), to ensure fastest delivery you would write the country name in both the language of the destination country (e.g. "USA") and in Chinese (in this example, "美国").

However, if (for example if you cannot write in Chinese) you address the envelope entirely in the language of the destination country (e.g. English), it will get there but there is more room for error as the postal worker may not speak that language well - the country name should be written unambiguously and underlined, for example to highlight it from the rest of the address. This is especially important because in some countries the country is written first in an address, while in others it is written last. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed as some like Tango have mentioned, whatever you write it's unlikely it won't get to it's location if it's unambigious. It may be delayed, and this doesn't mean you shouldn't try your best to get it right but provided the location is unambigious, it should get there. (There are probably 3 simplified possibilities, one is if it can be automatically sorted with whatever computerised system may exist, two if it fails automatic sorting and has to be put aside for manual sorting, this will obviously delay it a bit, three if even the manual sorting can't handle it and it has to be sent to a special place for handling this will cause the most delays. Of course an additional problem is if it ends up in the wrong location and has to be sent somewhere else.)

This File:Letter to Russia with krokozyabry.jpg from Mojibake is a good example of that (although in that case it wasn't the country that was a problem), and I'm guessing the Chinese mail authorities also deal with stuff like that, particularly in the past.

I believe I also read once (can't remember if it was a link from here, I think we have discussed this issue in any case or from elsewhere) that worst case scenario, particularly if there's no return address, they may open the mail to try and work out where it's supposed to go, or where it came from.

I also have a personal anecdotal example where the country was just plain wrong, Malawi instead of Malaysia (this was from something online I'm not sure I selected the wrong country or their system was simply borked) and it ended up in Malawi (I think, can't remember the details), the Malawi post office realised Kuala Lumpur wasn't in Malawi so it was sent on to Malaysia and eventually reached me.

BTW, I did come across [7] which has plenty of examples from different countries although not official they tend to be from official sources, it does say UK may be interpreted as Ukraine in the US and also mentions the UPU examples are not necessarily great. It also links to other guides like [8]. We also have Address (geography)

P.S. I have sometimes wondered what would happened if you wrote a Taiwan address and put China or People's Republic of China/PRC or even The Real China; or a PRC address and put Republic of China or R.O.C, but I'm guessing it will still reach there. (Or an equivalent in Chinese.) Similarly I presume the PRC handles traditional Chinese addresses (perhaps with delays) as does the Taiwan handle simplified Chinese addresses.

Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The USPS website has guidelines for addressing international mail sent from the USA here. On the London address used as an example, they write the country as ENGLAND and specifically state the country should be spelled out, not abbreviated. Using this standard, your letter should be addressed to NORTHERN IRELAND if it's being send there. —D. Monack ^talk 03:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Island with high mountain

Anyone know small (not Greenland or Great Britain etc) island with quite high mountain on it? It should be somewhere in the middle of an ocean, I think Atlantic one??? 74.15.64.29 (talk) 11:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of islands with mountains, usually volcanoes, on them. The Hawaiian Islands are of this type, with Mauna Kea and others. I can't think of an Atlantic one. How high are you referring to? 2D Backfire Master ^{sweet emotion} 12:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

St Helena is mountainous but not very high (818m max); however it is certainly "in the middle of an ocean". Alansplodge (talk) 12:08, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Tristan da Cunha? Madeira? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:09, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Azores? --TammyMoet (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all! Tristan da Cunha was the one I was looking for. Thanx a bunch! 74.15.64.29 (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

A very random question regarding libations

Does anyone have any ideas or theories regarding why bottled water often has nutrition facts, but alcoholic beverages that have more protein (i.e., Guinness} than water do not have said facts? 2D Backfire Master ^{sweet emotion} 12:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe because bottled water is often advertised as 'pure' because it comes from a spring (sometimes) and so they will list all the nutrition facts in order to convince the customer that it is really good for you and is 'pure'...Chevymontecarlo. 12:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

True, but what about beer and such? 2D Backfire Master ^{sweet emotion} 12:22, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

In general, people don't buy beer for its nutritional content. However, mineral water is often sold for its vitamin and mineral content. It's possible that mineral water labelling is a legal requirement, I don't know. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 12:27, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Alcoholic beverages are one class of food exempt from requiring a nutrition panel in Australia [9], and no doubt elsewhere, although they are subject to other legal standards. Bottled water is also exempt, but like Chevy said they often include an "analysis" to make you think you're getting something better than a bottle of tap water (which you're generally not). FiggyBee (talk) 12:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

In the US, food is regulated by the Food and Drug Administration, which requires nutrition labels for food, but not water. Even though alcohol is a food and a drug, it's not regulated by the FDA. Alcoholic beverages are regulated by the ATF, which has no requirement for nutritional labels. So, neither one must be labeled, leaving it up to the companies to decide. StuRat (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I seem to remember reading that some brewer wanted to mention nutritional content on the label (B vitamins?) and was forbidden to do so on the grounds that the People must be protected from getting the idea that drinking beer can be good for them. —Tamfang (talk) 06:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Margaret Dumont's age at her death is in error

If Margaret Dumont was born on October 20, 1889 and died on March 6, 1965 her age at death would be 75. Wikipedia reports that her age at death was 82. Either a date is incorrect or someone has made a mathematical error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srfish (talk • contribs) 12:23, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It likely was incorrect. Or maybe you're reading something wrong? 2D Backfire Master ^{sweet emotion} 12:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The 1889 birth date (rather than 1882) has been inserted quite recently by an IP editor, with an inadequate citation. I'll check it out and if necessary raise the question on the article talk page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

References elsewhere say 1882, so I've changed it back in the meantime. FiggyBee (talk) 12:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

See my message at Talk:Margaret Dumont - I think a stronger case can be made for 1889. In her case, because of the type of roles she played, I think it's quite plausible that she claimed to be older than she actually was. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:43, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

FamilySearch [10] reveals 20 October 1882, her mother was Harriet Anna Harong and father was William Baker. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Both dates should be acknowledged. Follow the lead of the Chief Bender article. Note also that this is a duplicating discussion from Dumont's talk page. It's not really a ref desk question as such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The condition of talking with Sinebots

moved to LD, thanks. 70.177.189.205 (talk) 14:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Job Employment Campus Interwiew

My son ( a student of BCA Computer Application ) is now studying in 3rd semestar. But he is suffering from depression due to a very strange situation. He got 69% marks in the Madhyamik Exam (Secondary exam), he got 55% marks in Uchya madhymik Exam (Higher Secondary Exam), now he is getting over 70% marks in all the semestar so far(3rd semestar completed)16:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)16:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)16:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)16:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC). But I came to know from various sources that when my son will complete the degree (6 semestar) he will not be allowed to sit in the Campus interview of any big well know companies( for employment) because he has got less than 60% marks in the Ucchya Madhyamik exam.. Is it an acceptable explanation ? Every body is telling me that to be eligible to sit in the campus interview of big companies it is compulsory to get 60% marks in the Ucchya Madhyamik exam.(Higher Secondary exam). The situation stands like this:- If any students get 60% marks in the Higher Secondary exam and after that if that students get only 50% marks in all the 6 semestar even then the student will be allowed to sit in the campus interview of big companies because that particular student has got 60% marks in the Higher Secondary exam. Is it not a very strange matter ? Is this matter true or false ? Is it an acceptable or justified condition ? Can you please clarify this point so that my son (student) may get rid of his present depression condition ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallabdutta (talk • contribs) 16:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing preventing him from applying directly to big companies. In fact, it could help distinguish him from the marathon of students meeting with recruiters in a single day. --Nricardo (talk) 18:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has only a stub about the Indian Bachelor of Computer Applications degree. Madhyamik is a centralised examination conducted by West Bengal Board of Secondary Education whose headquarters are at Bidhannagar, Kolkata popularly called "Salt Lake City". You may try to get a response from them about the 60% threshold that you heard about but I don't think a 60% mark in one exam guarantees employment to anyone, otherwise why have interviews? Personal recommendations from your son's tutor(s) would count for a lot, as would his own account of what has motivated him to work hard. This could be in a letter he sends to employers as Nricardo suggests. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Traveling from JFK (New York International) to EWR (Newark Liberty International)

I'll be flying into JFK from an international flight on the 5th of July. My next connecting flight will be from Newark Liberty. My question is how feasible is this travel route, considering I have 4 hours between the two flights? And how should I travel? Take a taxicab, or an airport shuttle? Google Maps says it'll take about 1.5 hours; this seems a lot to me. Does anyone have any experience traveling between these two locations?

Thanks. 98.209.119.116 (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

In the future avoid connecting at different airports. Either of those can get you to most places. Any savings are not worth the trouble. For now, I recommend a taxi, which should go via the Belt Parkway, Verrazano Bridge, Staten Island Expressway, Goethals Bridge, NJ Turnpike to Newark Airport. --Nricardo (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

1.5 hours total sounds about right for public transportation. It's a non-trivial distance and goes through one of the most dense urban areas in the world. It takes about an hour to get from JFK to downtown Manhattan by subway; it should take at least 30 minutes more to get all the way over to Newark from there. I would factor in 2 hours of travel if doing it by subway, because things will be delayed, be late, go slowly, etc. By car (and thus taxi) it is supposed to be about 45 minutes. Depending on the time of day, that could be a lot more—at rush hour the bridges get completely stopped up. It'll be pretty expensive. Airport shuttle is probably middling in price ($30 or so), more scheduled than a taxi, but probably a lot less slow and difficult than the subway (if you aren't familiar with the New York subway system, it is workable, but not very user-friendly). I would go with the airport shuttle, personally, out of those three options. The taxi will cost at least double the shuttle. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

If you want to avoid the roads by using rail transit, the fastest way does not involve the subway. From your terminal at JFK, take the Airtrain (the airport transit line) to Jamaica station. From there take the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) to Penn Station, in Manhattan. From there take New Jersey Transit (NJT) to Newark Liberty Airport station (do not confuse with Newark Penn station, which comes in between). And from there take the Airtrain (again, the airport transit line, this time a monorail) to your terminal at Newark airport. I've ridden all of these but I'm not experienced enough with them to give a good time estimate, but 90 minutes sounds to be in the ballpark. I think you probably have to pay twice, once at JFK for the JFK Airtrain and LIRR, and once at Penn for NJT and the Newark Airtrain. The Airtrains run every few minutes; the LIRR and NJT trains are fairly frequent but might involve a bit more waiting. You can find NJT and LIRR timetables on the respective organizations' web sites.

I'm sure it's possible to do the trip by airport bus using only one or two vehicles, but I don't know the details, and then you are subject to traffic delays on the roads. --Anonymous, 19:28 UTC, April 17, 2010.

See http://www.panynj.gov/airports/jfk-airport-connections.html, there are apparently two options between JFK and Newark, State Shuttle and AirTrain. I have no personal experience in this matter. Woogee (talk) 23:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No, you're misreading. It says "Airtrain and mass transit". Airtrain, as I said, is the name for the internal transit line within each of the two airports and connecting to the train station outside. --Anon, 23:48 UTC, April 17, 2010.

I think you might find yourself very short of time. Depending on where you are going from Newark, the check-in might have closed before you get to the airport. Assuming you are flying into JFK from outside the USA, you will need to pass through immigration and collect your bag from baggage reclaim. It could easily be over 30 minutes between getting off the aircraft and getting to your transport for Newark. Add a 1.5 hour journey to Newark and it doesn't leave much time before the check-in closes - sometimes as much as 1.5 hours before departure, depending on airline, destination and airport (though I couldn't find any info about this on Newark Liberty's website). A delayed arrival at JFK, long lines, and heavy traffic could easily leave you missing the latest check-in time. If you can't change the flights to give you longer, or to arrive and leave from the same airport, I suggest you try to find out which terminals and gates you will arrive at, how far you will need to walk (or run), the fastest and most reliable transport option for the time of day, and which terminal and check-in desks you will need to use at Newark. Astronaut (talk) 05:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know Newark but JFK is very large and not the easiest to navigate. It's also notorious congested. Considering that you probably want to get to Newark at least an hour or two before your flight leaves, that doesn't leave you with a huge amount of time when you factor in all the possible things that could go wrong and cost you 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Aeroplane Windows along the fuselage - serious question.

As above, do they build an aeroplane and forget the windows if the plane is intended for cargo use only? Or do they build all aeroplanes that way and only convert them to have passenger windows if that is what the airline operator specifies? Or can they (the builders) design them in such a way as to convert them at low cost? Or - why can't they build ALL aircraft of each respective model WITH windows and just remove seats etc., for cargo use? As an aside, why are the words airports and aircraft spelled with an "i" when aeroplane is spelled with an "e" - OK - for purists, "2 x e's". 92.30.1.173 (talk) 19:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I can't say for sure about the first part of your question, but my guess would be that it's simpler to build without the windows. Aircraft designers would probably prefer to keep windows at a minimum, as windows present extra problems, i.e. "something else to go wrong". The first Mercury spaceflight had no windows, just a periscope. The astronauts complained, and the designers grudgingly added a window, which meant they had to cut a hole in the spacecraft and then find an appropriately thick piece of glass and a proper sealant. Regarding "air-" vs. "aero-", that's just English for you. According to my Webster's, "aeroplane" is a French derivation, and there are many English words that use the prefixes "aero-", from "aerobics" to "aerosol". The prefix "air-", which means exactly the same thing as "aer-" or "aero-", is also used frequently, as with the examples you cite and also "airship", "airway", etc. Both "aer(o)" and "air" derive from the Latin and Greek "aer". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

• aeroplane 1866, from Fr. aéroplane (1855), from Gk. aero- "air" + stem of Fr. planer "to soar," from L. planus "level, flat" (see plane). Originally in ref. to surfaces (such as the protective shell casings of beetles' wings); meaning "heavier than air flying machine" first attested 1873, probably an independent Eng. coinage[11]

• airplane 1907, from air + plane; though the original references are British, the word caught on in Amer.Eng., where it largely superseded earlier aeroplane (1873 in this sense and still common in British Eng.; q.v.). Aircraft "airplane" is also from 1907; airship is 1888, from Ger. Luftschiff "motor-driver dirigible."[12]

• airport 1919, from air + port. First ref. is to Bader Field, outside Atlantic City, New Jersey, U.S., which opened in 1910.[13]

Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

"Airfield", also, (1919 given in my source) and "aerodrome" (1908). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:00, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

"Aeroport" is occasionally heard in English (often facetiously), but is the common word for airport in other European languages (French, Spanish, Russian...) FiggyBee (talk) 06:52, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Many cargo aircraft are older passenger aircraft which have been converted. These aircraft usually (but not always, particularly in the case of smaller aircraft or aircraft which may be regularly switched to carry passengers or cargo) have their windows blanked. A lack of windows makes the aircraft easier to service and to paint, and also provides a small safety advantage in case of a crash (rescuers don't waste time trying to look through windows that have nothing behind them). Newly-built passenger aircraft have window holes cut in early in the process [14]. Cargo aircraft don't [15]. Adding windows to a completed aircraft is not easy, so the reverse conversion is rarely if ever done. FiggyBee (talk) 06:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The "window = weakness" theory is supported by the case of the world's first jet airliner, the de Havilland Comet, which kept disintegrating during it's early commercial flights. By the time they found out that it was metal fatigue in the window frames, the Boeing 707 had taken most of the orders. Alansplodge (talk) 07:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The de Havilland Comet had structural problems due to itys big square windows, which had to be changed to small round ones. The article also mentions some of the reasons why modern planes no longer have their engines buried in the wing. I believe that some airplanes were built to be capable of having modules for passengers or cargo inserted or removed. 92.29.91.224 (talk) 11:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Wood Family Cemetery - Missouri

Can you tell me where exactly the Wood Family Cemetery is located in Monroe County Missouri? I believe it is located on someones Farm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.14.199 (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Have you looked in Google? Have you tried contacting the county office? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:27, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

This page, where you would expect to find some information, doesn't seem to have any. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

April 18

Fishing lure

I am looking for manufacturer information on a fishing spoon called flasher I used in Pennsylvania in the 1970's —Preceding unsigned comment added by Walleyeuno (talk • contribs) 01:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

If you haven't already done so, try Google. Chevymontecarlo. 06:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Would that be the Williams flasher [16]. It was so good they took out a patent on the design. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 07:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

soviets

how many of the countries that were previously within the ussr are now led by former members of the kgb,military,or soviet gov. and their names/former positions??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rfragd (talk • contribs) 02:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Vladimir Putin, the current Prime Minister of Russia, had a stint in the KGB, see Vladimir Putin#KGB career. Gabbe (talk) 09:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd suggest looking at USSR and then reading the articles of/googling the small number of premiers which follow. I'll do my part: the president of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko was a member of the Soviet Border Guard for 2 years and then the Soviet Army for another 2 or so. Some googling says that he was some kind of officer but it doesn't sound like it was a high up position and I can't find any solid references. The prime minister, Sergei Sidorsky, seems to have had a background in industry. Now you can do that for the 13 other ex-USSR members. 129.234.53.144 (talk) 11:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

No one ever leaves the KGB, comrade! Adam Bishop (talk) 02:08, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Brooks Brothers; High-end?

Might be of a silly question, but generally speaking, is the fashion brand Brooks Brothers considered a high-end retailer? Generally, can one consider them to be on par with say, Hugo Boss or Gucci? Acceptable (talk) 03:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Removed apostrophe to fix redlink 131.111.248.99 (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It depends. BB has long been a maker of high-quality, but very conservative, clothing. Its wares are designed to look good, but not to stand out. Boss and Gucci might introduce new styles once a year; BB once a decade. BB is less expensive than the others, but isn't of lesser quality. BB doesn't make clothing to show off; the others do. PhGustaf (talk) 04:19, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I would call it high-end, yes. I'll agree with PhGustaf in that they don't make stuff that will stand out but they are known for their name. They have stores on both Madison Ave. and Rodeo Dr. which are two of the higher end retail streets in the US. Dismas|^(talk) 04:31, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Ready to wear - never really high end. Saville Row is high end. 92.29.91.224 (talk) 12:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the style associated with BB is "understatement." Bagginess as opposed to form-fitting might might accompany that. A "classicizing" principle is at work in the BB aesthetic, I think. This might be seen as in opposition to the aesthetic employing innovation and updating. Bus stop (talk) 12:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Off-the-peg clothes can never be among the very best. If you want a truly high-end suit, it has to be bespoke. The same goes for women's clothing. I have heard it said that a truly good suit doesn't need a label - the suit speaks for itself. --Tango (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Greece and the Euro

Why is the potential defaulting of Greece on its debt seen as a threat to the Euro, given that monetary policy is controlled by the Franco-German axis? If Athens goes under, why should Frankfurt tremble? 86.41.84.199 (talk) 07:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The way this type of thing usually happens (or is feared could happen) is that nearby nations with intertwined economies then fail, then they take out those near them, etc. A sort of cascade failure. StuRat (talk) 13:00, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought, but commentary like this suggests the currency itself rather than the underlying economies is at risk. 86.41.84.199 (talk) 16:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

how tall is obama

how tall is obama? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.118.28 (talk) 13:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Heights of Presidents of the United States and presidential candidates, he's 6'1" / 185 cm. StuRat (talk) 13:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Slipping Parking Brake

I bought a new Suzuki SX4 SZ4 (Front Wheel Drive only) a month ago and have just done over 1000 miles so far (UK). Shortly after taking it from the showroom I noticed the car rolling backwards when on an incline (even a moderate one) with the parking brake applied and out of gear - including during a hill start which makes it difficult to avoid rolling backwards. So I took it back to the showroom where they checked the car and found the settings were as manufacturer's specifications and the brake cable properly adjusted. But I was told that the problem is common on cars with disk-brakes all round the car as there is less surface area between the pads and the disks than would be the case with 2 front disks and 2 rear drum brakes (as per my last car which never ever slipped backwards on a hill). So I am left wondering if this is correct, and if so, how do these all-round disk brakes survive an M.O.T (Ministry of Transport)test. And how do the manufacturers get past the Health and Safety and other consumer-related legislation. I am led to understand that all-round disk brakes are far more efficient at slowing and stopping the car than drum brakes - (which pleases me), but I am now obliged to leave the car in gear when parked as well as applying the parking brake. Any advice here will be appreciated. Thanks. 92.30.7.103 (talk) 18:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like nonsense to me, certainly something the size of an SX4 should be able to hold itself with the handbrake. If the lever's coming up a long way without the brakes being effectively engaged, just getting it tightened should make a big difference. You should be leaving the car in gear when parked in any case, btw. :) FiggyBee (talk) 18:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Hand brake don't work and “were as manufacturer's specifications” ! Try [17]. I think they have tried to fob you off. Area may be smaller but the force applied is 'higher' on disc pads - so that argument is a non sequitur. And as you point out – how does their excuse square with getting it through the M.O.T.--Aspro (talk) 19:04, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

If you are suspicious of this, may I suggest you contact the AA or RAC, as these organisations provide advisory services to their members, and will be in a better position to advise on the roadworthiness or otherwise of your car than a bunch of strangers on the internet! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It's road worthiness is clear (the MOT requirements defines that). I'm sure the OP would have contacted the RAC or AA if he had been a member. Come on, disappoint me 92.30.7.103. Tell me you are a member but did not think (despite all their promotional bumf) to take advantage of their services (I avoid adding any sarcastic comments because the people working for said organizations are hard working, contentious people). The OP should not have to fork out membership, to get some background info, for a fault that occurs within what amounts to some 24hrs (1,000 mile) of driving time, and just in order to resolve a problem that the dealership should be capable of resolving themselves. After all, what is the point of buying from a dealership...? e-Bay would be cheaper if it was simply a matter of price.--Aspro (talk) 21:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know much about how things work in the UK but am I right that it most likely won't pass a MOT test. If so, even though it may not be due for a MOT test anytime soon, is it possible to get one carried out anyway? Yes this would cost money (I don't know how £54.00 compares to AA or RAC membership), but it may or may not be a more effective way to deal with the problem. If you're sure it won't pass, and indeed it doesn't pass, you then have the evidence to take with you for the dealership and you should I presume be entilted to a refund of the cost, since they refused to deal with the issue and you needed the test to prove to them they were wrong. Of course you probably should inform them of your concerns and plan, and ask for a written confirmation that they believe the brake issues are by design, and not a fault that would cause the vehicle to fail a MOT test. I'm not saying this is necessarily the best way to deal with the problem and obviously you shouldn't need to do so, but if the dealership is being silly it may be a way to deal with the problem. Nil Einne (talk) 09:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The dealership is talking complete nonsense. Why would we install disk brakes if they weren't as effective as drum brakes? If the handbrake won't hold the car on a moderate slope then it's not working. Don't stand for this kind of run-around. The car isn't functioning correctly - period. Having said that, you should always leave the car in-gear and with the handbrake on when parked (you probably know that!). But you're 100% right. The british driving test requires you to hold the car on the handbrake while doing a hill-start and if you can't do that - even on a really steep hill - then the car is undrivable. If they continue to disagree - demand that they let you drive one of the new cars on their lot and see that one slipping under the same conditions...if it does, then you just bought a terrible car - if it doesn't slip - then your car is faulty and they'll be forced to admit that fact. There are lots of other things to test than just the brake cable - maybe there is some kind of contaminant on the brake pads - maybe the pads are faulty. SteveBaker (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The reason I suggested AA or RAC is because they will produce an independent report, which the OP can take to the dealership as evidence that the car they sold is not fit for purpose. The OP claims to have bought a "new" car. In the UK you don't need an MOT until the car is 3 years old, and it is theoretically possible that the new car wouldn't pass the MOT because it wouldn't need to. If the car is not fit to be driven on the road, the AA/RAC report would identify why and also provide the solution, which the dealership should then implement. If they were then to quibble, then recourse to law would be necessary - and the independent report would be the evidence to start a court case with. This report would be well worth it. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Bobby Knight

what school did bobby knightcoach first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.39.209 (talk) 21:03, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Our article Bobby Knight says "After graduation in 1962, Knight coached junior varsity basketball at Cuyahoga Falls High School in Ohio for one year.". SteveBaker (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing the answer the questioner is looking for is the United States Military Academy at West Point, known for sporting purposes as "Army," which was the first college Knight coached. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

submitting an article on new user

Dear Wikipedia moderators, users and concerned public! I'm having a real hard time using Sandbox and related programs to create an article using wikipedia and need help! easy help! I'm hoping to upload a short and cited article with a quick redirect and want to be able to just submit it to the general public. Hoping someone can give me a detailed instruction guide to the "sandbox" process and help get this article up. It's a small bio on a noted speaker David Wilcock, who talks frequently about fringe and related conspiracy theory and its relationship to spirituality. help would be super helpful! thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukehilton (talk • contribs) 23:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

You might be best off at Wikipedia:Articles for creation. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Check out Wikipedia:Your first article. It should contain everything you need to know. If you have any further question, ask at Wikipedia:Help desk (this reference desk isn't really for questions about how to use Wikipedia, the help desk is, so you'll get a quicker, better response there). --Tango (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Here is your sandbox. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You can get live help, and talk to experienced users, live here.  Chzz  ►  12:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

April 19

UK postage stamp price increases

It seems to me that over at least the last twenty years or so, Royal Mail's prices for first and second class stamps have increased at rates that exceed inflation. I cannot however find a comprehensive history of prices, either as a graph or a table. Most of what I've found is news stories or other commentary about "yet another price increase", often with some limited mention of previous increases, but no full data anywhere. Can anyone help me locate this information? If we find it, it would be good to add a graph to an article such as Postage stamps and postal history of Great Britain or Machin series (I don't know enough about stamps to know where would be best). Most of what Wikipedia currently has on Royal Mail stamps is all about design and other features of interest to collectors. The stamps I'm talking about are non-denominated postage and so don't have monetary values written on them, so the designs don't change with the prices. Indeed, that article says: "Non-denominated postage was first introduced in the United Kingdom in 1989 for domestic mail, in part as a workaround to the problem of fast-changing rates." — Trilobite 05:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

This seems to cover the matter with regard to basic first-class postage, though the information isn't in the form of a graph or table. (We do have an article on the United States that seems to be a possible model for what you want: History of United States postage rates. I'm not finding an easy online source for UK rates presented in the same detail, though.) Deor (talk) 11:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The article linked by Deor covers US rates but not UK. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:03, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Plus, it doesn't compare price rises with inflation, which is what the OP asked for. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:12, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

If someone had access to a run of Whitaker's Almanac they could work it out, as it lists postal rates each year. DuncanHill (talk) 12:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

This [18] contains a graph showing the tariff for 20g compared to the Cpi --80.195.117.33 (talk) 12:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Flight Manuals

Does anyone know where one could find flight manual's for some of the "heavies" in the aircraft world? Like for a Boeing 747 or an Airbus A380? ^Avicenna_sis @ 07:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

eBay. I searched for 747 flight manual as well and came up with a training manual. I'm not sure if you were looking for that though. Dismas|^(talk) 07:19, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Am I wrong to find such a request (and search for flight manuals) a little worrying. Shouldn't such material be restricted to (and controlled by) the appropriate agencies? 92.30.48.156 (talk) 09:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are wrong. What exactly do you think a person will do with the knowledge? Steal a 747? Hijack it and try to fly it by consulting the appropriate page at the appropriate time? Build one from scrap items found in said person's garage? How much more likely that someone is fascinated by such vehicles, and wants to learn more about them. You'll forgive me if I say that the culture of paranoia is entirely out of place in a forum dedicated to making information free. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course you're wrong. Anyone who can afford it can buy a plane, and how else could they use it?! ╟─TreasuryTag►consulate─╢ 10:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ditto to what Tagishsimon said. In college my roommates were aviation students and were fascinated by any airline minutia they could get their hands on. (they all loved the airline silverware that I brought with me when we moved into the apartment) One guy was a trainspotter too. There are completely innocuous reasons for wanting something like this. Additionally, how would you go about keeping these things secure? There are thousands of pilots out there that need these for reference material. There are thousands of aircraft out there with these things on board. How would any organization, private or governmental, keep track of every copy? And finally, you can go to any aviation college bookstore and buy copies of the manuals for smaller aircraft such as Cessna 152 and 172s. (that's where I got mine after all) Small planes too can be used for terrorist acts. Don't let your paranoia get away from you. Dismas|^(talk) 10:25, 19 April 2010 (UTC)