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November 21

Angels

Do angels exist? Is there any proof of their presence on earth?95.176.214.169 (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No, and no.

Well, they might exist, but there is certainly no proof in the scientific sense. HiLo48 (talk) 00:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

They may well exist, but there is no scientific proof of their existence. It is a matter of faith. Edison (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

First select your type of angel. The Australian band of them definitely exists and Wikipedia says unequivocally that this book about angels is non-fiction. The article Angel describes the kinds of divine angels that are said to exist (but all the descriptions cannot be right so logically some or all are nonsense). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As HiLo suggests, it is not possible to say definitively whether they exist or not, and any "proof" comes from faith, not physical evidence. An angel is supposed to be a "messenger from God", so there's no reason it would take only one form. It might take a form that makes sense to a particular culture. One can argue that angels are manifested through other humans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Bugs, I thought for sure you believed in angels. — Michael J 07:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As came up in a recent architectural theory lecture I attended, Kant argues that since we cannot even be certain of the nature of the world outside of ourselves, when it comes to things that we cannot sense at all, cannot see or smell or feel or even begin to understand, there is no way we could prove anything one way or another, and that therefore even trying to decide based on no evidence is a waste of time and effort. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 07:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

By 'eck, that sounds like a good description of dark matter/dark energy... --TammyMoet (talk) 13:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Except that those two (completely unconnected) things are attempted explanations for phenomena that we have observed, insofar (as per Kant) that we can observe anything. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.149 (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The Biblical Jacob was called יִשְׂרָאֵל Yisra`el, meaning "one that struggled with the divine angel" and Rembrandt snapped the clinch. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

While the bible does describe the fight between Jacob and the angel, the name "Israel" does not mention the word "angel", but rather God. Our article on Jacob contains several different possible meanings of the name, but none of them include the word "angel". While authorities argue over the meaning of the prefix "Isra"/"Yisrae", the suffix "el" is unambiguosly "God". An angel is "malach" in Hebrew. --Dweller (talk) 20:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Gregory the Great said England was the land 'not of Angles, but of Angels'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Those of my religion exist and intervene constantly for the benefit of people of my religion. Those of your religion (for we have differing religions) do not exist, and are either misapprehensions of demons and monsters, fairies and youkai, due to your lack of the fundamental religious virtue common to people of my religion allowing you to see these beings correctly; or, are in fact, delusions of a diseased mind as people not of my religion are more commonly mentally ill than people of my religion. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Well you would say that wouldn't you. For interest, what do you call your religion of such exclusive fundamental virtue and what does it say about respecting other people? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

For a person with firm religious beliefs, Fifelfoo's position is completely logical. (If not rational.) HiLo48 (talk) 09:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This can only be a personal musing, not a real answer, and I won't offer proof of angels' existence, but in lieu of this, it may be possible to describe them in such a way that their existence can be taken as a matter of personal perception. Which is to say, angels can be described as the personification of concepts which undeniably or at least probably have meaning, and the degree to which this personification is literal or symbolic is a matter of personal expression. It is important to note that to avoid making angels into a polytheistic concept, the roles of the angels should in some way represent a logical partition of the message of God, rather than being viewed as deities in themselves which can be arbitrarily declared with arbitrary and intrinsic characteristics. To put it vulgarly, the powers and qualities of an angel might devolve from the office it holds, rather than being innate - a better analogy might be that the existence of separate angels is akin to the existence of separate orbitals, for example, the three p orbitals, which are defined by how an observer looks at them, but which don't actually have separate existence from some universal perspective.

Specifically, consider the (sometimes) seven archangels, possibly equated with the Seven Spirits of God and the seven virtues. These may also be compared with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, as they precede the "fifth angel", Exterminans, in Revelations. Now drawing the specific equations is at best uncertain, more likely a matter of creative expression, but the idea is that if virtue or adversity can be divided up conceptually into specific realms (e.g. Gabriel, fortitude, and war), and if the virtues represent divisions of the will of a personal God, then there should be a personal face for these virtues also, i.e. the angels. Wnt (talk) 02:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Can you name the music in this video?

starts in 06:40 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4YQnACGpJs — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ofplef (talk • contribs) 01:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The choral music at 7:00 is Land of Hope and Glory sung to one of the Pomp and Circumstance Marches by Edward Elgar, probably recorded at a The Proms#Last Night of the Proms concert at the Albert Hall, London. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. You can see the whole thing here, conducted by David Robertson (an American chap, but we won't hold that against him). Alansplodge (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Scientists murdered by Christians

Galileo, Darwin, etc. were persecuted by the church but not killed. Were there any scientists who were actually killed by the church? The only one I remember is Hypatia. --70.250.212.95 (talk) 02:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

You first need to define the words "scientist" and "murdered" and "by". --Jayron32 04:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

And "the Church"? What Jayron means is that it is difficult to answer the question because "the church" does not usually go around murdering anyone, including scientists, and before relatively recently (the past few hundred years), there were no "scientists" in the modern understanding of the word. Darwin and Galileo for example are certainly scientists, but Hypatia was more of a philosopher...and in any case she wasn't killed by "the church", she was killed by a mob for reasons that had little to do with being a scientist. Galileo was persecuted not specifically for being a scientist, but because he was kind of a jerk to people who didn't immediately believe him (the Pope especially). Darwin was never persecuted at all, although some members of the church disagreed with him (and this was quite a different church than the one that existed in Galileo's day, which itself was much different than the one in Hypatia's time). However, to give a simpler answer, you would probably be interested in reading about Giordano Bruno. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thomas More was a social scientist killed by the Church of England, depending on your definitions (he's a martyr to Catholics, so his death was more to do with church politics). I suspect there's quite a few who were killed for taking sides in conflicts with a religious dimension, such as Lazare Carnot, physicist and leader of the rationalist French Revolution, who was executed following the restoration of France's Catholic monarchy in 1815, but like most distinguished victims of the executioner, from Jesus onwards, he was actually executed by the state not the church. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

List of people executed by the Holy See may be relevant, but the only people I would describe as scientists are Bruno and the poisoner Giulia Tofana. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Giordano Bruno is basically the only case of a major scientist executed by the Church because of his scientific beliefs/teachings. The idea that the Church held a huge, murderous power over scientists is a bit overblown. Darwin was not personally persecuted by the Church and lived a quite comfortable life with the exception of his recurring illness. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Except that, as the article points out, many see him as being executed for his religious beliefs, not his scientific ones. Rmhermen (talk) 15:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but in his case they were pretty intertwined. But it's a general point that Inquisition persecution was never about just one thing — Galileo's house arrest was as much about politics as it was about the particular positions he took. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(EC) Though that raises the question of the changes in definitions (by the Church) between then and now of the divisions (or not) between the proper spheres of enquiry of religion and (what we now call) science. The possible existence of other inhabited worlds, for example, was then considered (by the Church prosecuters, who clearly had the whip hand) a religious question, while today most would concede it to the scientific realm. On a more general point, "history is written by the winners" and the Church as prosecutor in this and other cases (just as other Establishments, such as the rulers of Athens who condemned Socrates) clearly long had the advantage in controlling what was recorded for posterity. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.149 (talk) 16:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Could you give us a reference for anyone who was ever prosecuted by anybody for suggesting "the possible existence of other inhabited worlds"? It seems a bit unlikely. Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

That was (though I couched it in modern terms) one of the charges against Giordano Bruno, to whose already mentioned case I was referring in the first part of my response. When I broadened to make a more general point, I was not intending to assert that other individuals had also been prosecuted by the Church for exactly the same offense, though it would not surprise me to learn that other more obscure figures had, or had been threatened with prosecution to silence them, or had self-censored for fear of it. Please note that I am not trying to promote an "Ooh wasn't the Church horrible" message. Different times were different to ours, and one can be interested in that without trying to impose contemporary sensibilities on them. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.40 (talk) 21:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

From the article, the full list of charges was holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers; holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation; holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ; holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus; holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass; claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity; believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes, and dealing in magics and divination. Even with changing boundaries between science and religion, these are primarily theological charges. Many of these charges individually would have been sufficient for a sentence of death after conviction. Rmhermen (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

And to continue cutting and pasting from the article that we've all read where you left off:

"In these grim circumstances Bruno continued his Venetian defensive strategy, which consisted in bowing to the Church's dogmatic teachings, while trying to preserve the basis of his philosophy. In particular Bruno held firm to his belief in the plurality of worlds, although he was admonished to abandon it." [My italics].

I'm not suggesting the last was the only charge, merely that it is one that, in today's terms, is relevant to the scientific theme of the OP's question, and (unlike some of the others) was upheld and led to his execution. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.40 (talk) 03:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

In the UK at least, the scientific community in the 17th to 19th centuries was well populated with Anglican clergymen. A comfortable income, few duties and a university education meant that they were well placed to persue their interests in botany, geology, entomology, astronomy and so on. An example that springs to mind is the Reverend Nevil Maskelyne. A European example of an ecclesiastical scientist is Gregor Mendel. Alansplodge (talk) 16:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

See Christian pacifism.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

In the 14th century the inquisitor Nicolau Aymerich persecuted followers of Ramon Lull. Lull wrote on a number of topics, including maths. I don't know if that amounted to any prosecutions or executions, or even whether anyone could find out at this late date. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The general problem, I think, is that, whenever large-scale persecution of nonstandard world views was in place, it was difficult for "scientists" even to rise to prominence without being shot down.

The concept of "science" only emerged when persecution by the Church was on the decline. It was born in late 1600's in England, partly due to tolerant attitudes of the young Church of England at that time. There's only a handful of individuals that we might consider true "scientists" who lived before that time - Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo.

The famous Spanish Inquisition was very active in 16th and 17th century and executed at least 1400 people between 1540 and 1740. Going through the list of Spanish scientists, I only see a few names dating from that period, and at least one of them, Michael Servetus, was executed by the Inquisition. In the List of alchemists, I don't see any notable alchemists to come out of 16th to 17th century Spain either. --Itinerant1 (talk) 00:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

To anticipate diversionary quibbles, Servetus was actually tried and condemned by, and executed on the orders of, the Protestant Geneva Council, although the French Inquisition had already condemned him and wanted to extradite him for execution anyway, and he was condemned for heretical theological views rather than any scientific teachings. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.40 (talk) 03:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Good point, I've missed that part when skimming the article. So the number of known prominent scientists executed by the Spanish Inquisition goes back down to zero. In any event, any promising alchemist or scientist born in Renaissance-age Spain probably had a good chance of attracting attention and potentially becoming one of the 1400 before he could make it into textbooks. --Itinerant1 (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"The concept of "science" only emerged when persecution by the Church was on the decline." This is nonsense. There was plenty of systematic inquiry during the Middle Ages, most of it funded by the Church. This is a common-enough misconception that we even have an entry in it on the List of common misconceptions (see point #3 under Ancient to early modern). The idea that there were no scientists before Copernicus is patently ridiculous. Copernicus did not get the idea, the means, or the training to study astronomy out of nothing! He comes out of a rich tradition of Church-sponsored study of the heavens. The omission is clear when one goes from Copernicus, Kepler, to Galileo without mentioning someone like Christoph Clavius, who was the biggest Church-sponsored guy in between, and whose textbooks would have been mandatory reading for folks like Galileo. Clavius "rose to power" just fine, and was no stooge or dummy. (So not-a-stooge was he that he eventually conceded that Galileo's observations must be true, and a Ptolemaic model could not hold. Which is why the idea that Galileo was persecuted for opposing the Ptolemaic model is false — the Church had by that point already adopted the Tychonic system, which was at that point observationally identical to a Copernican one.) It is true that your average science textbook doesn't teach any scientists before then, but there were scads of people investigating the world, some more systematic than others, some more wrong than others. But do not mistake the textbook narrative of the history of science (the endless upward movement towards truth!) for the reality of it. What happened in the "Scientific Revolution" is less that science was born than science became connected with government and commerce, which put it on a pretty different path than it had been on before. I am no great defender of the Church (I'm not religious), but the idea that they were going around all during the Middle Ages and squashing anyone who dared to look at the sky (or other phenomena) is nonsense, and the idea that the entire idea of studying the world just suddenly came into the heads of a few random people is also nonsense. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The early modern with the least epicycles and the most observed predicted phenomena wins. But our article on the Tychonic system implies that was Tycho. And he did "win" if we consider the sociology of science reception. Until new observed phenomena appeared. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say that there were no scientists before Copernicus, did I? I said that scientists were very rare. And indeed they were. With regard to Copernicus, you say "he comes out of a rich tradition of Church-sponsored study of the heavens." And yet he was still working off the Ptolemaic system, dating 1500 years before his time. The only advances in 1500 years were incremental improvements in numbers and properties of epicycles, mostly made by Islamic astrologers.

By the way, Copernican system is observationally equivalent to Ptolemaic, differences are mostly mathematical and ideological, and Tychonic system is a partial ideological regression back to Ptolemy. The first system that is observationally different from any of those (which also happens to describe planetary motion with more accuracy and fewer free parameters than Ptolemaic/Copernican) is the Keplerian model.

Edit: I stand corrected here, there is a difference with regards to phases of Mercury and Venus. There is no difference with regards to motion of planets.--Itinerant1 (talk) 23:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

But here's a better way to illustrate my point. Count all world-class European scientists you know who were alive in 1500. I can come up with Copernicus, Leonardo, Paracelsus, Agricola, and maybe a couple of less important alchemists.

Now count all world-class scientists who were alive in 1700. Just in Britain, we have Newton, Hooke, Wren, Locke, Stirling, Flamsteed, Halley, Taylor, Maclaurin ... On the continent, the scientific revolution took off a bit later, but we still have Leibniz, five different Bernoullis, Cassini, and de l'Hôpital. --Itinerant1 (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Mr. 98. Science can be considered the bastard son of the Catholic church really. Organized religions played a very important part in encouraging sciences and preserving scientific literature in the Dark Ages. Monks and scholars slaving away copying manuscripts they probably did not even understand is the reason why we still have some ancient texts today that would otherwise have been lost.

But then again to Itinerant1's point, most of the famous scientists were those who were born to noble families, had large fortunes, or managed to secure powerful patronage. And they still tiptoed around the base "facts" established by the Bible or the Koran. We really don't know how many amateur radical ones got burned at the stake for witchcraft.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 06:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

UFOs

From 1960 to 1972 I worked for CBS News in Philadelphia, at WCAU-TV. Channel 10. During that time I recall some respected source saying that the most nearly credible reports of UFO sightings was a cluster of sightings near a Soviet city that was a "closed" city for security reasons, sightings said to have been reported by hundreds of people. I do not recall the name of the city, but I see no mention of that incident. Do the authors of your page have any information about that? Donald Barnhouse [removed email address before they see it] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.36.209.48 (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I removed your email address as we do not reply by email. I'm not sure which page you are referring to. Do you mean our article on closed city?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I suspect he means our UFO article. Alansplodge (talk) 10:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The area around Astrakhan, particularly Kapustin Yar, was popular for UFO sightings (according to the article Kapustin Yar and a wide range of websites of uncertain credibility). This area was a centre of Soviet space research, so there were doubtless lots of strange lights in the sky. There's not much about the UFOs on Wikipedia - maybe there's a shortage of reliable sources of information. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a book dated 1968 that catalogues almost 200 eyewitness reports of UFOs in the Soviet Union. Reports are all over the place, but there is what looks like a cluster of about 30 sightings in July to October 1967, in the region of Donetsk, Lugansk and Rostov-na-Donu. The center of the triangle formed by these three cities is about 300 miles west of Kapustin Yar. In addition, there are about 10 reports in the vicinity of Kapustin Yar, and a few further south. Reports are not consistent with space launches, but could make sense if there was research into experimental aircraft going on nearby. As far as I can tell, there were no known closed cities in Donetsk/Lugansk area. --Itinerant1 (talk) 06:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Odd pop culture question.

MC Frontalot's 'Critical Hit' is a satire of a bunch of rappers, I am sure, but not being familiar with the genre, I don't know which ones. Which real rap songs typify the artistic form that Frontalot is ripping off? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 17:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about the video and not the song itself? The song lyrics don't stand out to me as being an homage to any form in particular, either in content or delivery. His video doesn't seem to have much by way of reference to rappers, but other pop culture characters, like David Bowie (the Aladdin Sane garb), Paris Hilton (the green "sex tape"), and David Carradine (the erotic asphyxiation bit), among others which I was not familiar with. My take on it, anyway; I didn't think the rapping sounded like an homage to anything I've heard, and I do consider myself fairly familiar with hip hop trends... --Mr.98 (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm talking about the genre of rap song about how cool he is and how great his life is? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 21:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

My interpretation is that it's just a common form of DJ boasting that has been done in hip hop since its inception. The earliest hit hip-hop song, "Rapper's Delight", is basically nothing but boasting. My limited understanding is that this is in part because of the influence of rap battles, in which two (or more) MCs explain why they are the best, and their opponent is, well, not. Anyway, I don't think Frontalot is referencing anything specific — it's a very common trope in rap. What makes Frontalot different of course is that he does it in reference to D&D terminology, which is unusual in rap. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

But not entirely unusual in nerdcore, which is the very genre that he is said to epitomize, in spite of its limited scope.--WaltCip (talk) 20:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sure. But Nerdcore is pretty fringe when it comes to the whole of hip hop and its history. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - yes- the battles thing makes a lot of sense. I don't pick up a strong D&D theme in the song (except the nat 20 ref), it seems like that framing story is really emphasized in the video more. Other than Rappers Delight are there other non-nerdcore songs that really stand out as iconic in the genre of talking about the qualities of the rapper (whether or not they simultaneously denigrate others)? Thanks so much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.159.19 (talk) 19:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

A huge amount of the work by Jay-Z and Nas is about their proficiencies as rappers and general awesome-ness. Other rappers usually sprinkle it throughout all of their work no matter what the subject matter. My all-time favorite couplet about rapping skills comes from Notorious BIG: I got techniques drippin out my butt cheeks / Sleep on my stomach so I don't fuck up my sheets. There's something so self-effacing, while self-flattering, about that particular line, along with its obvious crudity... --Mr.98 (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

November 22

highest number of blood donor

what is the highest or maximum number of blood donor in a single blood donation camp,in world till nowHalka fulka (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Possibly one in Mumbai, India on 25 April 2010. 25,065 donated blood over 12 hours. See [1]. Not sure if it has been surpassed since then. --Jayron32 01:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Prostate Cancer

No, this is not a medical question, but I wonder if there are statistics which show that male porn stars have a lower incidence of this problem, (as I presume that they have more sexual activity than most of us), since I have seen a claim that the greater this activity the lesser chance of getting this cancer.--85.211.153.242 (talk) 07:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No idea of the answer. Just being a spelling pedant. It should be Prostate, with only one r. HiLo48 (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question. After 3 minutes in Google Scholar, I don't see any studies of porn stars, but I see a meta-analysis study dated 2002 that reports a 20% increase in the risk of prostate cancer for an increase in sexual activity by 3 times a week, a 20% increase per 20 lifetime sexual partners, and a 130% increase if you were ever infected with syphilis.

On the other hand, I just saw an article recently that claimed that residents of Okinawa are 7 times less likely (age adjusted) to die of prostate cancer than Americans. That was attributed to high-vegetable, low-meat Okinawa Diet. (I also saw a documentary movie claiming an even greater reduction, but I haven't had time to check that claim.) That might be an easier way to avoid dying from prostate cancer (among other things) than becoming a porn star.

I've seen so many medical studies (often contradicting each other) that I tend to take them with a grain of salt. But a 7x difference in mortality rates is usually an indicator that something significant is going on.--Itinerant1 (talk) 07:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Okinawans, Sardinians, and Seventh-Day Adventists from Loma Linda tend to live the longest, apparently. 80.122.178.68 (talk) 10:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about Sardinians. Mormons in Utah tend to live at least 5 years longer, on average, than typical for Americans. I don't think it's been fully explained.--Itinerant1 (talk) 11:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The lack of alcohol consumption among Mormons likely plays a role, strong family and community ties probably doesn't hurt either. Utah has had a fairly low poverty rate, which would help longevity, as well. (And they look at a lot of porn, apparently. [2]) Mark Arsten (talk) 19:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

How wealthy is the average Mormon compared the average American? Wealth is an excellent predictor of longevity. --Tango (talk) 19:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

A grain of salt will reduce cramp pains.--85.211.153.242 (talk) 09:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Being no less a spelling pedant than HiLo48, I have corrected the question title for easier reference. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

"Red Indian"/ American Indian Names

Why do Red Indian names always go like "Stands with a fist", "Howls at the moon", "Kicks with his feet"?? The names are in their language, right? So why would anyone translate the meanings of those names into English while referring to those people? Even (real) Indian names have meanings in the corresponding languages, but I don't see anyone translating them literally while writing them in English... 223.190.239.230 (talk) 13:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

One look at Sitting Bull's Indian name, for example, might give a clue why the names are translated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The term "Red Indian" is mildly offensive; depending on the context "American Indian" is less so, and "Native American" (US) or "First Nations" (Canada) are more accepted terms for pre-Columbian residents of North America; the least offensive thing is to refer to people by their individual nations of which they are decendent (Oneida, Cherokee, etc.). The naming system you note, where Native American names are translated into English, is not as prevalent as the Hollywood Movies would have you believe. The practice is not entirely unknown (Ben Nighthorse Campbell, William Least Heat-Moon, etc.) however there are many Native Americans who are known either by European names (Jim Thorpe, Graham Greene) or by names in their own native languages (Pocahontas, Sacagawea, Massasoit, Cochise). I'm not entirely certain of why the translation occurs; my suspicion is because many of their names may have been difficult for Europeans to properly pronounce. --Jayron32 13:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec)

For starters, they aren't always. Sometimes they are known by our best mangled pronunciation in our language: Chief Seattle for Si'ahl, (pronunciation: [ˈsiʔaːɬ] or [ˈsiʔaːtɬʼ]; Tecumseh for Tekoomsē, also known as Tecumtha or Tekamthi, whose article describes the sign which occurred after his birth that his name derived from. Native American names were often describing a sign or significant event so the meaning was the important thing to convey (some of the sounds of the Native languages are very difficult for Europeans as well). Names may be acquired at birth, after an adulthood ceremony, or after a significant life event. This page comments on modern trends of having an Indian name and a Christian (everyday name). Compounds of European names are also common like Leonard Crow Dog, or Luther Standing Bear (originally Ota Kte meaning Plenty Kill but renamed at residential school). Rmhermen (talk) 14:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The answer is really simple: "That white guy asked for my name. He doesn't know the words I use, so if I tell him, he won't understand. Yesterday, he asked what I call a crow, and then he tried to say it and it sounded like a monkey was trying to talk. I don't want that to happen to my name. So I need to tell him using the words he uses." Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

on that explanation. If you are inventing your own explanation, please indicate so... --Jayron32 14:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I mean, you have presented an answer to the OPs question as an authoritative answer, but have done so without any indication where that answer came from. If the answer comes from a Wikipedia article, please link it. If it has come from another online source, please link that. If it comes from something you read or saw on a TV show, please indicate where. If it is merely some speculation you have, please indicate that as well. --Jayron32 14:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh. OK. Personal knowledge. Now try to say Tłʼízíłání... ;) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Jayron, as Seb az86556 is active on the Navajo Wikipedia, this is apparently his or her own personal explanation for what s/he him/herself does. Marco polo (talk) 14:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I pronounce it Many Goats, of course (I think from quick google search). If someone could sort out this line in the Allen Dale June article, it would be nice: ..."born for Tłʼízíłání, and his father was named Yéʼii Dineʼé, born for Tachíiʼnii." born into? born of the? what is the meaning here? Rmhermen (talk) 14:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

born into/born of (nilį́igo)=first clan, born for (yáshchíín)=father's clan. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) Pocahontas whose real "secret" name was Matoax or Matoika or Matoaka but who was called Amonute as an adult until she became Rebecca Rolfe is a good example of some of the complexities. There is also the explanation of the common addressing of elders as "Grandfather" as that their sacred names are too special to use as a mere form of address. Rmhermen (talk) 14:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to generalize about Native American names. There is at least as much cultural diversity among the indigenous peoples of North America as there is among indigenous peoples of a similarly sized region in the Old World (therefore greater diversity than among the peoples of Europe). Each ethnic group has its own practices, and individuals may vary in their practices. Marco polo (talk) 14:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've read something on this topic, but can't remember at the moment what it was--will try to remember. Meanwhile, the practice of using English words for Native American names (whether rough translations of their native names or wholly new names) goes way back, but so does the use of native names, even long, hard to pronounce names (though often "Anglicized" to some degree).

Not all Native American names could be translated--depending on the culture. Personal names in the Pacific Northwest, for example, typically did not have a specific meaning. For example, Chief Seattle ("Si'ahl"), as far as I know, doesn't mean anything in particular in Duwamish; nor does the name of his relative, Chief Kitsap; nor Chief Leschi; nor Maquinna or Wickaninnish of earlier times farther north. As far as I know these names mean as little in their languages as Jayden does in English (whatever original meaning there might be is non-obvious to most people).

There is also a long history of natives acquiring and using English names (or French, Spain, etc) for various reasons (especially converting to Christianity and being given a Christian name, and as a result of intermarriage). (as an aside, I'm fond of the Christianized names of two Native Alaskan saints, Peter the Aleut and Herman of Alaska)

I used to think the use of names like "Red Cloud" only became common in the 19th century and mainly for the Plains Indians, but there are numerous earlier examples, like Handsome Lake and his half-brother Cornplanter, yet a contemporary Seneca was called Sayenqueraghta; also Cornstalk and fellow Shawnee Blue Jacket. Red Jacket was known as Otetiani among the Seneca, but later given a new name, Sagoyewatha. As with the Iroquois, there was a wide variety of name-types among the Cherokee. The first example that comes to mind is Attakullakulla and his son, known as Dragging Canoe in English (though I doubt he or any of his "Chickamauga" followers would have used anything but his Cherokee name). Anyway, I will try to find the source I am thinking of...maybe coffee will help my brain. I suspect the more well-known (or stereotyped) style like Rain-in-the-Face, White Man Runs Him, and One Who Walks With the Stars is remembered so well because the Lakota and other Plains Indians were among the last to be subjugated and among the most romanticized since the end of the Indian Wars. By that time, the mid-to-late 1800s, practice went both ways too--Custer was called "Yellow Hair" by some of his native enemies. Pfly (talk) 18:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I just have to cite the example of Young Man Afraid Of His Horses, which, according to the article, is a translation of his real name. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You beat me to it, I was going to post that, although the article doesn't jibe with what I have read, in that the Sioux word for horse was their word for "big dog" and the real meaning of his name was "His enemies even fear his camp dogs". The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Angela Merkel's mudra

Why is Angela Merkel often doing a kind of mudra? (search for Angela Merkel superglue to see it). I don't see any German politician doing anything similar... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.74.46 (talk) 14:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It's obviously just a personal habit or mannerism. Lots of people have physical habits like that. Hers has attracted attention because she is in the spotlight a lot and because a lot of people (especially in places like Greece) dislike her and therefore want to ridicule her. Marco polo (talk) 14:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, why is she still doing it, if people is laughing at it? 88.8.74.46 (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Why does Bill Clinton point with his thumb if people mock it? Perhaps it doesn't bother her. People have lots of mannerisms, and famous people with characteristic mannerisms see those mannerisms show up in caricatures of them. It doesn't mean they care... --Jayron32 17:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

In her hakina mudra (Sanscrit) or "that which brings joy" position, Merkel's five fingers represent the elements of the cosmos. The tip of the thumb represents the center of the fire element The tip of the index finger is the center for the air element. The tip of the middle finger is the center for the sky element. The tip of the ring finger is the center for the earth element. And finally, the tip of the little finger is the center for the water element. Angela needs the mudra's calming effect when she warns that Europe could be living through its 'toughest hour since World War Two'. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Believe me when a German tells us that we could be in for the toughest hour since World War Two we take it very seriously. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Chris: people don't know what you are talking about, when you say 'we' or 'us' on the Internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.34 (talk) 18:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Well "we" in Europe do, and I expect people in other continents can guess! Dbfirs 17:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

what does this mean

Hello, have received this text and I do not know what they could mean! Can anyone help me?

It's dem, veed deur bebyffeet, uh, hoommeeggburds 'n meelky veys, doooohhhh, It's dem, hurde-a yuoor sea shells, doooohhhh, Bloo oooot de-a beeg veeck, It's dem, it's dem, it's dem,

Nu nut yuoor beetemins, doooohhhh, oor peelloo oor muneecle-a, uh uh uh, dees oone's dgoost reeteuoosness helff fooll 'n lugeecel meunveboohll remute-a ebsuluut, 'n noohehe-a t' gu, boot oonerd 'n uperd, clesp croons gruoond de-a heert, uh, let trunsmeesshoon cummess, hellu, guudbye-a derk, Reel i vundeh is dees ell meteheeel, Dees cun't be-a heee, de-a leete-a is tuu dooll De-a furss teeme-a i spuke-a moost hebe-a beee

it duesn't luuk leeke-a un ice-a scoolptoore-a... oor dues it, dooh...uh...? iff i reel peyeed ettenshoon teeme-a voodd mube-a festeh 'n festeh, lundscepes 'n stetes ooff netoore-a voodd gellup 'n seenk beff'e-a me-a, uh uh uh, 'teel ell ves steell 'n un oorcheed ne-a instunt, uh, oone-a reech vheete-a boorsteegg oorcheed stuud in chunnels 'n de-a reebehs deep beloo beooty, greemece-a, uh uh uh, flee-a, uh uh uh, suools dun't neeed shelteh, neteebe-a veboohll smehts redeeetigg druoogh shune-a, uh uh uh, vhet's scereed smell seete-a, a sveemmigg preezm's grey cure-a vheech oone-a veell iheck a deffeenishoon f' sheeh bleess 'n set its sembeless seessere-a 'n oobboohjeck veed preede-a doon gently beff'e-a a glube-a ooff dgooje-a 'n grooje-a in oopee f'oom...i deenk... nu oone-a, uh uh uh,hoondreds ooff duoosunds ooff chetteheegg seelbeh feceed munkeys screech und feend dem fesceenetigg, elduoogh noohehe-a t' be-a fuoond oon de-a peheephehy ooff, uh uh uh uh uh, sume-a geneheshoon, hooh i'm nut femeelier veed zee, dooh uhh, tehm,

bueelid tu a creck, heppy noo, uh uh uh uh uh uh, vhu'll be-a burd in hund, uh uh uh uh, i'be-a beee mooteeletid tryeegg, teecheegg myselff preffehess, techneeke-a 'n ecceptebeeltiby, it seems yuoor sun is ooff cunsoomed, uh uh uh uh, bueelid tu a creck, vhet du yuoo meun dehe's nu ooer, dooh...uh...? ell de-a reshoons, dooh...uh...? suoond de-a elerm, dehe-a moost be-a a stooevey, a dreep, bure-a, uh uh uh, a creck 'n a treeckle-a, uh uh uh, suun de-a hooll gedeheed its budy, und dey ell droon t' meet veed a green, steeck 'n hunkehcheeeff, uh uh uh uh uh, emeed zee, uh uh uh, flooeboohreegg doost ooff zee, irrr, crussrueds, doooohhhh, dun't peteh oooot oon me-a noodroost yuoor feest intu zee, IRRRR, soonset, uh,

textoore-a veedin zee, uh uh uh, fuutpreents 'n un ind etup zee, uh, zee veend, uh uh uh uh, i feel leeffleeke-a...sumedeegg sumedeegg t' crevl oon, soonleet smell, a vree beneed zee, IRRRR, sueel presess beyund vells, doooohhhh, ert is ibehyvhehe-a, uh uh uh, i reffoose-a t' knoo vhehe-a, uh uh uh, i vundeh t' knoo vhehe-a ert is, doooohhhh, ibehyvhehe-a i vundeh t' knoo vhehe-a ert is, doooohhhh, ibehyvhehe-a i vundeh...

next teeme-a i'm bured, uh uh uh uh, de-a mun's gueegg doon i'll st'p oon unyune's broonbeg 'n loonch...vhee dey're-a nut luukeegg. it's nut eckooel bed rep, i dgoost dun't feel it, uh, dehe-a i seeed it. Um de hur de hur de hur. Cloddy Hans (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like someone trying to spell a heavy central continental European accent. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I can't tell all of it, but much of it is understandable if you read it aloud, for example "it duesn't luuk leeke-a un ice-a scoolptoore-a" would be "it doesn't look like an ice sculpture"--Jac16888 ^Talk 15:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/dose_one_boom_bip/its_them-lyrics-1249180.html Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That's pretty impressive dude!!! Richard Avery (talk) 18:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This looks like it's a piece of text that has been run through the Dialectizer, many times, each with a different dialect. It's too heavily dialected for me to make sense of it right now, I would have to take more time to take a closer look at it. JIP | Talk 18:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, it looks someone already figured out what it means. JIP | Talk 18:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Tapir in da house

Malayan tapir

Would a Malayan tapir be able to get into a normal house (say a 1870's terrace), ascend the stairs onto the first floor, and then, at a later point, descend the steps to the ground floor and leave the house again without any damage to the tapir or house? Harley Spleet (talk) 21:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sure, if the door is open and the stairs aren't too steep -- see the picture. Looie496 (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if the OP is considering having one as a pet.

And I wonder if they would make good pets or if they would be trouble. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP woke up in the night and found a tapir in his/her room and (s)he is trying to work out if it was real or a dream Richard Avery (talk) 08:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Military mail and supply lines

Are the supply lines delivering military mail to war zones typically kept separate from those that are of enough strategic importance to potentially be targets of an attack (e.g. those carrying food or munitions), at least in the case of high-value insured mail? NeonMerlin 21:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know: military orders, intelligence information and post etc., are sent to together by the fasted possible route and means of transport (i.e. often by air). So I suppose they are kept separate in that sense. --Aspro (talk) 22:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

November 23

what to do when new family throw away valuble documents that eventually mean changing everything we ever knew of?

and also we are never told the truth about it and have to make educated guesses about absolutely everything even who we really are! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bombdiggydeathstar (talk • contribs) 00:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• You may be interested in archive local history and family history. It is actually quite surprising how many trustworthy document sequences survive—in particular governments regularly hold series of documents on people in relation to tax, military service, births deaths and marriages, and similar document sets. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what "new family" refers to in the title of this section. Bus stop (talk) 00:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I would guess that means the family which adopted the OP, who then disposed of the birth-parent records. StuRat (talk) 05:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

And following on from that assumption... Depending on where you live and/or where you were born, you might have the right to see your birth-parent records once you reach a certain age (often 18 years old). Astronaut (talk) 05:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Glowing mammals

Are there any mammals that glow? 58.109.24.198 (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

There has been at least one mammal that has been made to glow (apparently now there are a few other species that have been treated in the same way). I'm not sure there are any naturally glowing mammals, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

There are none mentioned in our list of bioluminescent organisms. The closest thing to bioluminescence some mammals have developed naturally might be tapetum lucidum. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

It's said that horses sweat, gentlemen perspire and ladies glow. Ladies are mammals. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Most definitely. Edison (talk) 15:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Are there any other proven ways of causing a mammal to glow? 114.74.186.102 (talk) 16:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Does the perfect amount of a fine wine or whiskey count, lol? Heiro 19:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Something that has been observed in birds might be possible in mammals too. Around 1897 there began a series of reports of mysterious, glowing entities bobbing about low in the night sky in East Anglia. Several subsequent investigations, observations and encounters between about 1908 and the early 1920s demonstrated that the phenomenon was due to owls (several specimens were actually obtained) with patches of luminous feathers.

It was theorized that the owls (mostly Barn owls) were nesting or roosting in tree holes contaminated by "phosphorescent" or bioluminescent fungus (there are several kinds, some poisonous, notably Armillaria; some of the owls involved were clearly in poor health, one indeed was found in a dying state) which had transferred to their feathers. Similar instances were reported from Ireland and Spain. For full details see 'The Luminous Owls of Norfolk' by David W. Clarke on pp 50–58 of Fortean Studies Volume 1, Ed Steve Moore, John Brown Publishing, London 1994, ISBN 1-870870-557. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.23 (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This must be an example of a glowing mammal. (The box says that the cat food "makes the fur of your cat glow".) JIP | Talk 20:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

(And the last frame has "at night" as stage directions, and "go away" in its speech bubble). ---Sluzzelin talk 21:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I thought it would be obvious from the context, once the reader understood that the cat food made the fur of the cat glow. JIP | Talk 21:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes; if you believe the adage: "Horses sweat, men perspire and women glow". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Those who read threads will have already encountered this adage up above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

First female head of state of an African country

The main page today says Ellen Johnson Sirleaf is the "...first democratically elected female head of state of an African country". Was there an earlier female head of state of an African country (obviously, not democratically elected)? Astronaut (talk) 05:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Cleopatra? Rmhermen (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

And Nefertiti may have ruled quite a bit earlier than that (whether she ruled alone is open for debate). StuRat (talk) 05:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I meant in the modern political sense rather than ancient royalty. Though don't restrict it just to the title of "president" either. Astronaut (talk) 05:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If you count Madagascar as African (and the 19th century as not ancient), Queen Ranavalona I was quite well known. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.65 (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II was head of state of South Africa until 1961. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Elizabeth II was also head of state of independent Nigeria from 1960-63. Today she isn't head of state of any African nation. The unrecognised state of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) claimed Elizabeth II as their Queen in the late 60s, but she didn't accept this (since Britain refused to recognise its independence until it gave blacks equal rights). --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Commonwealth realm has more info. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If we are going to include English queens ruling over African colonies, we can surely go back further to Queen Victoria. However, I don't think the English had any African colonies back in the time of Elizabeth I. StuRat (talk) 05:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Portugal did. Ceuta was theirs until it was Spanish. So in Isabella II of Spain might count. Although she was a contemporary of Victoria. --JGGardiner (talk) 06:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The question is about independent countries, not colonies. Hence the British empire in Africa doesn't count, but the Commonwealth realms do. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't an exam. The question was actually somewhat vague which is why StuRat was able to muse about British Africa under Victoria, which predated the creation of African dominions. I just pointed out that Spain also had African territory and a Queen at the same time. That's why I was careful to say it "might count". I would also suggest that Spain's 19th Century African territories were only "colonies" under certain definitions and not others. Kind of like suggesting the Kola peninsula was a Russian colony and not merely Russian territory in Elizabeth's time. --JGGardiner (talk) 05:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Zewditu I was Empress of Ethiopia from 1916 to 1930. The article describes her as "The first woman head of an internationally recognized state in Africa in the 19th and 20th centuries". Not democratically elected, but interesting. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Carmen Pereira was the first female president from Africa. And the only one so far, except Sirleaf. --Soman (talk) 13:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Hatshepsut. She was preceded by other female monarchs but they were short-lived and they served only as regents/interim rulers. Hatshepsut's rule was longer and she ruled with full power as a male pharaoh.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 17:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

You missed the fourth line of this thread..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Oops. LOL. Was wondering why Nefertiti and Cleopatra were mentioned but not her. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 17:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

November 24

Mustard Oil

Is Mustard Oil considered "good oil" (meaning less saturated fat) or "bad oil" (meaning more saturated oil) and how in each case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.105.195 (talk) 01:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia article titled Mustard oil has a breakdown of the different types of fatty acid which makes it up. --Jayron32 01:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You would also need to know the ratios of the various fats of other oils, and have a concept of what ratios constitute 'good' and 'bad', to identify where on the spectrum mustard oil lies. Some information in this table - {{Comparison of cooking fats}}, and there are a range of foodstuffs, including oils, linked to from this page and which'll tend to give you values for each of the fats. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect School colors on schedule page

When I view the Pepperdine Waves basketball page for this year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011-12_Pepperdine_Waves_men%27s_basketball_team), I notice the colors on the roster are grey and white. When I check into the roster box, I see that it says teamcolors=y. When I look at the Pepperdine Waves page, I see the colors are blue and orange. So my question is why aren't the team colors showing up correctly on the school page? Every other WCC school doesn't have this problem. I can't find anything that's listed different on the school or the schedule page. Is there something that needs to be adjusted, will it not add the colors for a few days, or is there something else I'm missing? Bigddan11 (talk) 03:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't look as though anyone regularly serving as a virtual librarian on this Reference Desk is able to answer (or even understand) your query. These Reference Desks are really intended for factual queries about the world in general. Yours is more about a technical problem or anomaly with Wikipedia itself. You are more likely to get an answer - or corrective action - through asking at the Help Desk (which is about how to use and edit Wikipedia) or on the Technical Section of the Village Pump (which is for discussing aspects of how the site works). Both of those, by the way, are linked from Wikipedia's front page in the same area as the link to the Reference Desks. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.12 (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You never know who might be passing...

That page uses Template:CBB roster/Header - if "teamcolors" is set to "y", it will use the colours listed on two other pages, corresponding to the "team" parameter which, in this case, is "Pepperdine Waves". The two pages listing the colours are Template:CollegePrimaryHex and Template:CollegeSecondaryHex. However, there was no entry for Pepperdine Waves.

I have added entries [3] [4]. I could not find any information with exact colour codes, so I used standard Web colors for blue and orange.

Now, 2011-12 Pepperdine Waves men's basketball team is displaying an orange and blue roster.

Of course, anyone can edit the pages, if the colours are not correct.

(And the first response was quite true, too; you'd be better asking this type of question over on WP:HD, in future. I just happened to see it.)  Chzz  ►  06:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Understanding river stages

So, I live in the U.S. Southeast. On the local News program, they always show a graphic on the river stages. As an amateur kayak-er, I am interested in this info...but am unsure how to interpret it. For instance, the graph might show the following numbers: "Yazoo river 18 feet / +1.2 feet." OR "Mississippi river 20 feet / -.07 feet."

Now I am pretty sure the second number is the rise/fall in the water level, but what about the first number? Is the first number the level above sea level? The level of discharge? The level below flood stage? I'm embarrassed to ask other kayak-ers about this, so any help would be appreciated. Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 04:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I would think that's just the depth of the river, at a given checkpoint. Obviously the depth will vary over it's length, as it will tend to be narrow and deep in some places (possible whitewater) and wide and shallow in others (possible portages). StuRat (talk) 05:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

USGS has an explanation for stream stages. It's basically the height of the water surface above an arbitrary reference elevation (though it's usually the mean sea level). Geology.com also has explanations for different hydrographs.

There's an example for Devils Lake, North Dakota here. You can see the reference elevation is 1400 ft asl. The current water surface elevation is 1453.31 ft asl, thus the stage is 53.31 ft.

The + and - values are more mysterious though. Can you show an example graph? I think that's the difference between the last gauge measurement. i.e. "Yazoo river 18 feet / +1.2 feet" might mean Yazoo river currently has the stage of 18 ft, rising 1.2 ft from last measurement.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 05:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

What use is a baby?

Faraday was asked in the 1830's "What is the point of your work with Electricity? He replied "What use is a baby?" Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

And what is your question? Faraday is asking a rhetorical question. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday's point — which I think is rather obvious — was that electricity was in its infancy and had huge amounts of future potential. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Also if you run out of fuses babies are somewhat conductive Fifelfoo (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragoust. See A Modest Proposal. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

And you just know that someone will have to have WP:BEANS in there somewhere... Lemon_martini —Preceding undated comment added 18:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC).

See also Child labor, Child abduction, Baby farming, International adoption#Child trafficking or child laundering, Crack Baby Athletic Association, etc. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this yet another question about the purpose of life? (Hmm, I always seem to link to that via the redirect. Perhaps the page should be moved from "meaning" to "purpose", since people seem more concerned about purpose. Meaning of life#Popular views agrees.)  Card Zero  (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Too many of them is certainly a bad thing. Hence why I'm a conscientious objector to baby-making.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd always thought a conscientious objector to baby-making would be one who was concerned about overpopulation.--WaltCip (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a grave concern of mine.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 03:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday answered a question with another, inscrutable question. Given the date, I think it unlikely that Faraday could have anticipated even a fraction of the "huge amounts of future potential (a pun Mr98 ? I am not a pun resistor and I know you have the capacity to make them to induce hilarity.)" electricity had. Reasons: he was a theoretical physicist not an engineer, his induction experiments had led only to lab demonstrations and not to a useful machine at that time, the law

$\nabla \times \mathbf {E} =-{\frac {\partial \mathbf {B} }{\partial t}}$

named after Faraday would not yet have been brought into a unified electromagnetic theory by Maxwell who was only 4 years old in 1835, and Faraday was working with electric power sources of only low voltage and power i.e. chemical cells and the Faraday disc. Without foreknowledge of forceful electric machines, electric lighting (Edison 1879) or radio, what "baby" could Faraday have been thinking of? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps his meaning was that it is as pointless to ask why a scientist studies nature as it is to ask why humans reproduce. It is their nature to do so. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

That interpretation sounds like the response was an impatient put-down to the questioner. You may be right. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday's lack of engineering knowledge certainly would not have kept him from thinking that electricity was potentially a very useful thing. One need not even anticipate a fraction of the whole thing to realize that there may be a whole thing out there, somewhere. I cannot anticipate even a fraction of what nanotechnology is going to accomplish, but it is clear that it has the potential to be a Big Deal in the next 100 years. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

program,armed forces radio,1967,Christmas in Milwuakie

As a young soldier in Vietnam I listened to this program.Two young ladies presented it.Please congratulate them in retrospect. Did they continue with careers in radio? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.162.29.159 (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

"Christmas in Milwaukee" was apparently put together by the Rho Tau Beta broadcasting fraternity at Marquette University in 1967. The Milwaukee Journal (January 10, 1968) has this article about the broadcast: "Recording by MU Touches Hearts of GI's". I was not able to locate the names of the presenters, but someone else here may have better luck. It doesn't look like Rho Tau Beta is still active, but presumably there is a student society under some new name which is heir to their activities and – possibly – records. The University's archives have a file on Rho Tau Beta as well ([5]), but I don't know whether that would be useful or not. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Crown prosecution service in UK extradition cases

Hi,

Why did the UK Crown prosecution service instruct the barrister for a Swedish prosecution authority in the High Court Assange extradition proceedings (related to an alleged crime which AFAIK was never prosecuted in the UK)?

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 17:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it's just the name of the case that's misleading; really, the respondent is the CPS because the case is whether or not the CPS should extradite him to Sweden. That's how I see it anyway. It is certainly common for the case names to be misleading in some fashion, not sure about the specifics of this case. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The extradition proceeding was not a determination of guilt or innocence. The Swedish prosecution service sought to present their case for extradition of Mr. A. in a British court. In this case the UK prosecution service was not itself a party since there was no crime in the UK, but it was qualified to direct the presentation of the Sweden's case to the court. N.B. Wikipedia is not qualified to advise in legal matters such as extraditions where proceedings are mainly based on precedent. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how this constitutes advice. You indented that as a reply to me, I wonder whether you clarify if there is any disagreement. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with your statement "the respondent is the CPS because the case is whether or not the CPS should extradite him to Sweden". The CPS in this case is just a servant of the court and has no opinion to be heard. My nota bene is meant to be a disclaimer that says no one here can or should try to offer guidance on this legal matter (the indent is not significant because that just restates the desk guidance heading). Questions seeking legal advice should be directed to an appropriate professional. I hope that clarifies what I posted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The party to this case is "The judicial authority in Sweden", not the Crown pro-se. The CPS acts because it is mandated to do so by the Extradition Act 2003. The act requires that it show the alleged acts would constitute offences in England and Wales, the CPS are obviously the qualified people to do so. What is unusual is that the CPS doesn't have client in the same way it usually does (the crown) but acts statutorily (see this Times article). A significant effect of that is that the normal test for prosecutions, whether the public interest is served, is not a factor it can consider (the Times writer is essentially saying it's running on autopilot). Another issue is that the UK bears the cost of extraditing someone to another country (at least another European country); this has led to some countries seeking to extradite their nationals from the UK for penny-ante issues (see this Economist article), things the CPS would likely not consider a cost-effective use of public money if they had the choice. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 21:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Dutch pastry

Resolved

I recall, some years ago, having a Dutch pastry at this time of year (St Nicholas' eve). It was like a sausage roll, but with marzipan instead of sausage-meat, so sweet, and served hot any idea what it was? Its not in Category:Dutch confectionery nor Category:Dutch cuisine. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe something like the Gevuld Speculaas I'm eating right now (here's the picture from the nl:Speculaas article). Didn't know it was supposed to be eaten warm. Astronaut (talk) 18:42, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, but no, that's not it (though it looks delicious). What I mean looks like this, only longer. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You mean like a cannoli but eaten warm? Cannoli are an Italian desert, traditionally, but perhaps there is a similar Dutch desert... --Jayron32 20:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The thing in the picture doesn't look like a cannoli. It looks more like a sort of pasty or pierogi. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Pasties are turnovers (halfmoon or triangle shaped, and the size of a hand). Pierogis are smaller and roughly similar to ravioli or potstickers. The OP linked a cylindrical tube filled with meat, open at both ends. They also indicated that the desert they sought was a similar tube filled with a sweet substance like marzipan. A pastry tube filled with such cream is a cannoli in Italian. A similar french pastry may be an eclair though the tube is of a very different pastry than a cannoli is. Neither of this is like a pasty; if someone told a desert looked like a sweet pasty I would send them to Turnover (food) and if they said it was a desert shaped like a pierogi I'm not sure what I would have mentioned. But a cannoli is the same shape as the food they showed. --Jayron32 00:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The image from Andy looks nothing like a pieróg (singular of pierogi), and if it's supposed to be even longer it would be something entirely different. More of a cheburek (rather the Ukrainian variant), but these don't come sweet, they're only savoury, but it's still way off. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

You Phillistines! Do you know nothing of huate cuisine? The linked picture is of a British Sausage roll - surely one of the world's great delicacies. Alansplodge (talk) 12:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

My comparison was not so much the actual exact look but a reference to the type of ingredients used, namely a shortcrust pastry with filling, which creates a soft crust, as opposed to the cannoli, which applies a dry pastry that hardens into a crunchy shell when baked. The comparison to the eclair is probably more apt. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh. Okay then. But it seems that Alansplodge had solved the picture bit. And as for pierogi, the cooked (soft) version is, how shall i put this, default. you can get baked ones, but they're obviously made with different dough, are larger, but everything else (general form and idea behind this wonderful, tasty delicacy (nods at Alansplodge)) remains unchanged. --Ouro (blah blah) 16:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Banket would be my guess. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I asked a Dutch colleague whether my Gevuld Speculaas should be eaten warm. He said no, but then described something similar called Speculaas Staaf as being "filled with almond paste, shaped like a sausage and usually eaten warm". Astronaut (talk) 10:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a recipe. Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, .200, that's the one - there's a picture at [6], which also calls them "Banketstaaf". Google Images finds lots more pictures under the latter name. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Vitamin K

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Trucks or lorries in private personal use?

Are there any trucks or lorries in private personal use, where someone just likes to drive one, and does not provide transport as a professional service? JIP | Talk 22:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

• Chris_Eubank#Career_beyond_boxing - "a huge American Peterbilt 379 truck cab". --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It's got a personalised number plate as well (shame he can't spell).[7]--Aspro (talk) 23:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It reads like that because it's not actually a personalised number plate but a normal one that happens to almost spell his name, i.e. CHR 111 S. --Viennese Waltz 06:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Some Vintage lorry enthusiasts keep on trucking in Ireland. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I have occasionally attended Steam Fairs and Rallies (What, no general articles? Oh, there's this one.) in the UK, like the Great Dorset Steam Fair. As you'll see in that article's Exhibits section, 'vintage' commercial (internal combustion) vehicles are also shown, including lorries, and something not mentioned are the exhibits of old military vehicles from WW2 or sometimes earlier, usually restored to their wartime condition, which also include trucks/lorries. Most such vehicles appear to be owned and maintained (in roadworthy condition for the most part) by private enthusiasts: I believe a few owners may sometimes defray some of the not inconsiderable costs in time and money required by their hobby by making their vehicles available for period TV and film shoots, but for them this does not amount to a profitable commercial enterprise. Some owners, typically Old Age Pensioners unconstrained by job commitments, spend their summer travelling from fair to fair in the UK and Europe as a sort of extended caravan holiday. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.12 (talk) 23:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Some people use them as campers or to haul horses, boats, etc: [8], [9] 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I've got a 1985 7.5 tonne Leyland Roadrunner Horsebox for personal use. I can drive it on my normal car licence because I passed it some time ago. Now you have to take an extra test to drive vehicles exceeding 3.5 tonnes. It's an easy drive, good turning circle but I do find that I am overstrong with the clutch in my car after I've been driving the lorry!!

Are there, then, any trucks with trailers in private personal use? All I've seen from those links provided are just the tractor cars. JIP | Talk 13:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The trailer's only purpose is to ferry goods around. Don't you think its highly unlikely to be needed for one's weekly shop at the supermarket? Having said that, a certain butler ( aka Angelo Muscat) et. al., did find that his Scammell Highwayman low loader, very useful for his escape from Wales – and who can blame him? Thinks... He must have been sitting on a box, in order to see over the steering wheel.--Aspro (talk) 19:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a friend that owns a box truck personally. He used to own a business which has since folded, but he kept the truck. He's popular when people are moving, or buy an appliance, or helping people build decks, or stuff like that. But he does own it, and not for any business purposes currently. --Jayron32 19:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

How about going for a Sunday afternoon run in the countryside in one of these. [10] or this guy doing the school run ? [11]. Not being left enough room to park by other drivers is hardly going to be a problem, is it? --Aspro (talk) 21:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is also an old lady that resides in Windsor that even has her own train. That must beat a 40 ton Arctic any day--Aspro (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

November 25

deal or no deal

if u won the million dallors on deal or no deal how much of it do u realy get — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gar113 (talk • contribs) 02:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

It depends on how much you would have to pay in state and federal taxes (assuming you mean in the U.S.) --Jayron32 03:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

According to "Financial Secrets of Game Shows: Advice From Past Winners", about 60% or $600,000 after taxes if you're an American (unless you're in some weird tax bracket). Maybe all of it if you're a Canadian on the American version, after a tussle with the IRS that is (see Doug Hicton in the same article). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

(EC with all above.) This seems to be an unclear question. If you win a million dollars normally you would expect to get 1 million dollars (unless it's a spam win). At most, perhaps the transfer to your bank will result in some small fees taken from the original amount which for such a large win would be too insignificant to be relevant. Some countries may tax such wins but this will depend on the country. Do you have the situation in a specific country in mind?

The UK obviously does not use dollars so I guess you aren't referring to the UK version. The New Zealand version never offered a 1 million prize so I guess you aren't referring to that version either. The Australian version did once a while ago but since it's not the norm I would guess you're not referring to that version either. The Canadian version did have a million dollar prize although it's no longer produced. In countries like Australia [12] [13], and I believe Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom [14], normal contestants aren't generaly subject to income tax for one off wins. (Professional contestants and those who receive appearance fees may be taxed.) The Canadian version article specifically mentions the winnings are tax free.

The older US version did have a $1 million prize. And I believe the US does subject even such one off wins to income tax. However, I'm not sure if the company actually witholds an amount for taxation purposes. Possibly they do not in which case you will still get 1 million dollars or thereabouts, but also a hefty tax bill later. Since the US has a progressive income tax structure, the precise amount you will pay will depend somewhat on how much you earned besides the prize, if you earned nothing else the amount is likely to be less then if you have an annual income of $1 million before the prize.

Nil Einne (talk) 03:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The above ref suggests state tax may be witheld in the US, and seems to imply federal tax may be witheld from the Doug Hicton case although isn't so clear on that point. Nil Einne (talk) 04:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

If you were a UK citizen or a visitor from Canada, Australia etc. temporarily in the USA, would you get the full million? Conversely, if an American citizen wins a million in the UK version, are they liable for state and federal taxes in the USA on their British winnings? Dbfirs 10:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

All these countries have tax treaties with one another. So even if the income isn't taxed in the US, the gameshow company reports it to the IRS which shares it with the corresponding tax authorities in other countries. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 19:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

So does that mean that the IRS in the USA would tax an American's winnings in the British game, but HMRC would not tax a British person's winnings in the American game? Dbfirs 23:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the tax treaties are reciprocal. The essence of them is that countries share information, but in exchange taxpayers in one country who have income in the other are only taxed on the same money once - that is, if you earn $1000 in the US and pay say 20% US income tax, when your UK taxes are assessed the amount of tax the US took taken into account. People may have to pay a topup (as the parties are not tax harmonised) and the details of a specific transaction are hellaciously complicated, but it's in the interest of both countries to at once facilitate trade while preventing the other from being used as a tax haven. The UK's National Lottery's prizes are tax free, but I've no idea how that works for non-residents or other people with complicated tax affairs. Didn't I read recently that someone was denied his winnings in a US state lottery because he wasn't a US resident and and used a relative who was to file the claim, but got found out (implying whichever US lottery that was has a residency restriction)? -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

This google search I did regarding taxation of foreigners who win money in Vegas indicates that federal income tax is withheld at a rate of 30% on winnings automatically for foreign players; presumably similar rules work for game shows and other sorts of winnings as well (note that withholding of the tax is not the same as paying the tax in the U.S. In the U.S. one's anticipated taxes are withheld from one's income and held in escrow until tax forms are filed where the exact tax owed is calculated; taxes are taken out of the escrow, U.S. taxpayers then either have to pay off any shortfalls, or receive back how much they over-withheld.) --Jayron32 00:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The above ref provided by Clarityfiend suggests in the case of a foreign resident simply visiting the US, some taxes may be witheld but you may be able to get them back if you try hard enough. Which is likely worth it if you win $1 million. Of course you will then need to deal with your local authorities taxes, as I mentioned, in the case of Australia and from the Clarityfiend ref I think we can also confirm Canada, and I still suspect NZ and the UK, you're not likely to have to pay income tax on a one off winning if you're just a ordinary contestant. If you're actual resident in the US even if not a citizen, you're potentially a tax resident in the US so may not be able to do this. I have no idea how things would work if you were a tax resident but it's the beginning of the tax year and you return to your home country to live after winning. If you're a US citizen who visits one of the other countries and wins, you'll probably have no choice but report your winnings to the IRS in the US and pay tax unless you want to end up like this guy. I suspect if you're a US citizen resident in one of those countries, you're still going to have to pay tax to the IRS since unlike nearly every other country, the US doesn't care about tax residency for their citizens. So your only fallback is double taxation and other such treaties Finlay McWalter mentioned and these are unlikely to cover a case where no tax was due in the country of residence but where the IRS considers tax is due. It may seem the moral of all this is if you plan to win in a gameshow, don't live in the US and don't be a US citizen, but US$400,000 (rough after tax winnings of the US$1 million prize) is still more then AU$200,000. Nil Einne (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Video for Deploying Lifeboats

Hey everyone, I'm writing a book that deals with an incident where the characters are trying to deploy lifeboats. I was wondering if anyone could find a video or instructions how to deploy lifeboats. Now, I don't mean the lifeboats where they are deployed and then a smaller boat brings the inflatable boat to safety. I mean these ones, that are lowered into the water and the people inside boat themselves to safety. A video of the actual lifeboat being lowered into water doesn't really help. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 64.229.180.189 (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I just Googled for 'how to deploy a lifeboat' or 'how to deploy lifeboats' (and other combinations with verbs like use or utilise... have you tried this? I also found pages of manufacturers, like this or this with specs and others. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This video shows what not to do with a lifeboard (premature emission!). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Both movies that I have seen dealing with the Titanic have shown lifeboat operations in some detail. If I remember correctly, Titanic (1997 film) has a better depiction than A Night to Remember (1958 film). Astronaut (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This film from the former Royal Navy boys' training establishment HMS Ganges shows the traditional method. This film shows a rather more ceremonial version. This video shows a modern passenger ferry - the lowering seems to be fully mechanised. Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Expansion project

Why don't you sell a version for portable devices to generate income? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.24.43.83 (talk) 10:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Probably because due to Wikipedia's generous licencing terms, there's nothing to stop other people offering free versions of Wikipedia for mobile devices, and it would be bad business to try and sell something that other people could offer for free. If you want to use a mobile version, you can still make a donation. (Edited to add: Also, Wikimedia's goal is to produce educational content available as widely as possible[15], and this would not be met by selling access when it could be provided for free.)

However, this discussion probably belongs on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) rather than the Reference Desk, which is not for discussing Wikipedia but for answering non-Wikipedia-related factual questions. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I hope you mean that the Ref. desks answer Wikipedia-related factual questions.

I realise that wasn't very clear. The Help Desk answers Wikipedia-related factual questions, the reference desk answers any other factual question. --Colapeninsula (talk)

Such a service called "Ask Adam" is already provided in Denmark, Norway and Sweden.Part translation from Norwegian: One of the mobile services being marketed is "Adam"...You enter a subject keyword to 2236 (Adam) to receive 3 messages with information about the keyword. Answers are collected from Wikipedia and they are sold for 5 crowns each. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

They're sending it by SMS? I guess they must be glad we switch to dual licence CC and GFDL. Nil Einne (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's another stab at the original question... Because most mobile devices can already access the web while out and about so what's to keep people from accessing the free version? Or put another way; Why pay for an app when a free alternative is already available? Dismas|^(talk) 13:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried accessing regular (not mobile) versions of websites on a mobile device? It's a pain. The OP is right, there should be versions of Wikipedia for iPhone and Android (they would be free, though, not paid), or at least a mobile version of the site. --Viennese Waltz 07:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a Wikipedia app for Android, I have it on my Sony Xperia. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:52, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia app for Android is not official though AFAIK. There is an official app under development as well as an existing iPhone app (although neither of these are designed for offline access). I don't really understand VW's point, wikimedia sites have had mobile versions for a while and most mobile devices are automatically directed to them based on the user agent. (Originally this relied on a gateway but it later switched to a wikimedia extension.) Try http://en.m.wikipedia.org or http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous. The site does lack editing and you can't easily view talk pages (perhaps not surprising since you can't talk) but it's there. Then there's also the fancy new Athena skin under development [16]. It's still a while off but from what I've read it potentially may mean the end of the mobile site, instead using a single site that adapts to the device.

I don't know if I'd agree with Dismas, while many mobile devices can access the web, I suspect quite a few people have sporiadic access because they are on a prepaid plan and don't want to pay for data usage and wifi access (if their device supports wifi) is not available everywhere. This is decreasing but I would still be hesitant to say a most mobile devices use the web, altho it may or may not be true that of those that don't have close to continous web access, the owners aren't going to bother with an app for offline access. (Although I wonder if even that is true if you take the tablet market in to account.) In any case, I do agree a paid app is not the solution nor in line with the foundations goals. There are BTW a variety of paid apps, including some which provide offline access, simply not developed by the foundation. I don't know if any of them donate a percentage of profits to the foundation, obviously there's no legal requirement for them to do so.

See also Help:Mobile access. Not mentioned there but the foundation is offering some support for offline access, including supporting the OpenZIM project however their limited efforts are targeted at outside the mobile device market at the moment as evidenced by the lack of any Android or iPhone ZIM reader.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

C&EI and L&N Railroad Routes

Re: please clarify the scheduling and routes of the C&EI train route from Chicago to Evansville that were run on the portion of the L&N's "humming bird" and "Georgiana". The Chicago to Florida passenger service ("dixie route") i.e., does that mean 4 trains the C&EI used traveled the same route (on different schedules, of course) but didn't stop in Evansville or the "dixie route" trains were on C&EI tracks all the way to Florida and bypassed Evansville? Let me tell you, my grandparents lived on Pennsylvania avenue where one of these trains (or all of them at one time or the other) passed every night at about 10:00 pm -- it was a treat to stay at grandma's because she would make us a pallet of quilts and pillows on the floor in front of the screen door in the summer time and we could stay up until this shiny, superfast train passed by -- wow!! All the lights were on in the cars and it rumbled by and the whole house shook but we loved it. I just can't remember which one it was -- I thought it was the silver bullet, but that isn't in the list. My grandpa worked for the C&EI and his job was to sit up in this little house and do something about the trains -- I remember walking across the tracks and up about 30 steps to take his soup pail and sandwich up --pretty scary for a 4-year old. I'm now 70 years old and as silly as it sounds, this is a story that i want to live on . . . And I want it to be just right. My dad was also a railroader and worked for the L&N in Evansville at the Howell yard. His job was wrecker engineer. To this day, I love the sound of trains and fondly remember walking the tracks to go get his paycheck, watching and waving as the troop trains passed and even recall the hobos that were camping under the viaduct. Didn't start this to share, but I just had to -- you probably have other special memories that you should share with others -- go ahead -- :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.39.165.70 (talk) 12:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

We can't hear you! Please shout a little louder! 194.100.223.164 (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I have refactored the original post so it is somewhat quieter. Maybe that will prevent the above rudeness. Astronaut (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe our articles on the Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad and the Louisville and Nashville Railroad will help. In particular, you might find useful the external links towards the end of each article - both railroads have their own historical societies which I would imagine would be a great source of information for scheduling and routes. Good luck. Astronaut (talk) 16:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

tourism and environment

sustainable resource use and proper resource assessment will require an intergrated and consultative approach that addresses tourism and environment.Elucidate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius vivians (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

As a start, make sure you understand each of the words by looking them up in a good English dictionary such a www.onelook.com or Wiktionary. However you must spell "integrated" properly. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

It starts out by making a reference to those resources, presumably of an environmental nature, that one would like to have around in perpetuity and be more knowledgeable of. It goes on to recommend a system that draws upon human resources from more than one sector of the society, in order to understand those natural resources better. It makes one particular point of the need to address the ways in which tourism impacts the environment.

I am taking some liberties in interpreting the original text. I think the original text could have been written more clearly. If you have any follow-up questions or comments, please feel free to post again. Bus stop (talk) 00:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Advanced Inflatable Repair

So, if I have some inflatable toy, a nice big thing that I enjoy playing with in the swimming pool, and it has a quite large tear through it. I have paid quite a bit for this thing, I don't want to just throw it away, but as well, having already invested that much in it, I would be interested in more expensive high-tech sorts of solutions. I could of course just put a strip of sellotape across it, that might well need replacing every few hours, but what else could I do that might be more durable? The tear being along a seam, making it difficult to get tape or a repair patch into the shape there, could I effectively recreate the seam, melting it with some heat source to reseal it? Or what about glue, is there any sort that might create a strong, airtight and waterproof seal here? 148.197.80.214 (talk) 18:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Purely on personal experience of comparable situations, I'd say glue is unlikely to work, because there will be too little area of overlap/join available to be glued securely. If the tear were on a smooth, unseamed area, then adhesive tapes wider and more water resistant than Sellotape™ are available that would probably suffice - something like Duct tape, though other sorts might be even better: you'd need to visit local hardware stores or trade suppliers to see what's available. Tears along seams on inflatables are, as you say, more difficult to fix because the small irregularity of the seam makes an airtight seal very difficult to achieve, but since a pool toy does not have to bear the same pressures as, say, an air bed, a suitable appropriate tape might well work. Trying to replicate by guesswork the heat and pressure seaming process used in the toy's manufacture (which will be heavily dependent on the exact material) would, I'd have thought, be very difficult, and if not exactly right the first time would leave the toy in an even worse and less repairable condition. Good luck! {The poster formerly known as 87.81;230.195} 90.197.66.98 (talk) 22:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Depending on the exact plastic used to make the toy, it is probably possible to purchase a glue which is a gentle solvent for that plastic. This has to be used with care. I recall making successful airtight repairs to PVC many years ago using this type of glue, but I can't remember what the solvent was. Dbfirs 23:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Happens all the time. Just Google "inflatable repair kit" and click away.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I wondered why I was so euphoric over that repair! Thanks for the link. The solvents used seem to be Methyl ethyl ketone, Acetone or Toluene, depending on the material. Dbfirs 17:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

November 26

Ice maker

So my wife really likes the kind of ice "balls" you get at restaurants like Sonic. It is basically little, round, pebble-sized ice balls. It there a home version of this. All I can find is "restaurant grade" equipment and they are all very expensive (like, thousands of dollars). I'm thinking of a Christmas present version of this. Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 03:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

This is the only thing I could find after 10 minutes of google searches for under $1000. It offers multiple sized ice cubes; but I have no idea if their smallest setting would work for you. Nothing else I find is of the "christmas present" price range (assuming you belong to the 99% and not the 1%). --Jayron32 03:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

this list has 3-4 in the sub thousand dollar price range. No idea if any meet your needs. --Jayron32 03:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, most of that is what I have seen, but some not. I can't justify an Xmas present at more that $1k for an item like this, so your info was very helpful! Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 04:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a cheaper idea: Use an egg tray instead of an ice-cube tray in the freezer, to form hemispheres, then add a bit of water on top of half and place the other half on top, and freeze the two halves together. Here's a tray: [17]. To make them a bit smaller and freeze the two halves together even better, melt them down a bit after in cups of cold water (don't put more than one sphere in a cup, or they may freeze together). This will fill in any gaps between the pieces with ice. (Any water which gets between the ice chunks will freeze due to the ice being below freezing temp.) StuRat (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think that any ice chunks that get water between them will melt, due to water being above freezing temp - but I don't really know.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

In any event, eggs are the wrong size. Sonic ice looks like this. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

What about just getting a mold, like this or this or this or this? (The latter seems pretty nice to me — the reviews say they are really small, so small that the reviewers rated them negatively!) They're not all perfectly round but they're pretty close to the same size. The relevant search term seems to be "mini cube" if you want things that make very tiny ice cubes, I have now learned. I think the technical term for the Sonic ice is "nugget ice", but true nugget ice machines seem to only be produced for thousands of dollars, apparently because they use a fairly complicated process to make the ice. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if the product is available in the US, or even under what name to google it, but in Germany we have foil bags for making (semi-round) ice balls. You fill them with water, and put them in the freezer. See [18]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If hundreds of little ice pebbles are needed per drink, like in your picture, then moulds can't be the solution. When you're in need of a cocktail, removing just two or three ice cubes from a mould is arduous enough, I find.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The image seems to show crushed ice. You can make that with an ice crusher (*surprise* ;-), or with a double plastic bag and a hammer. But that won't give you nice balls. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Apparently most Sonics will sell bags of ice. That's probably the best solution for getting the ice. But it doesn't really work as a Christmas present. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Sustainable Cannibalism

Could a species sustain itself indefinitely through being cannibals? E.g. say there were 100 rabbits and (ignoring other factors like nutrition etc) all they had to eat was themselves, could they sustain themselves long enough to have offspring and then that offspring to cannibalise their former generation/some of themselves? I assume that basically it's a non-starter as the total energy levels start with whatever the energy of 100 rabbits is and reduce each time (and that each new rabbit costs more energy to raise than it gives back in food/gets back in food). Terrible question I know but was watching a documentary with Polar Bears apparently sometimes eating the little ones if they get hungry enough. ny156uk (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, the lack of energy input into the ecosystem would cause it to fail. Plenty of animals have been known to eat their young in difficult times, though. If there isn't enough food, the young aren't going to survive anyway so the parents eat them to maximise their chances of surviving until better times when they can have more young. --Tango (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

We have a sections of articles on the subject: Infanticide (zoology)#Infanticide by parents and caregivers and Cannibalism (zoology)#Filial Cannibalism. --Tango (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that it's not sustainable, but a species could survive an amazingly long time period through cannibalism. Let's take humans as an example. If we each ate another person, that ought to provide food for around 6 months. This assumes that each body can be frozen, or each body shared among many people so they don't rot, and there would be nutritional deficiencies from an all meat diet, so you'd have to assume vitamin pills are available. But, at the end of 6 months, you'd have half as many people. If you continued this practice you'd have 1/4 as many people at the end of one year, 1/16th as many after 2 years, etc. After 16 years you'd have 1/4294967296 of the original population, or about 2 people left. Then it's time to decide if you want to repopulate the planet or get out the butcher block one last time. :-) StuRat (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

That decision rests on whether there's a she and she's a pretty she. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't call 16 years an amazingly long time - that's less than one generation. I also think you would be lucky to get 6 months of food from one person. You could probably do it by rationing yourself and only eating, say, 1500kcal a day (which is low, but probably survivable). However, if you did that then after a couple of years the people you are eating have been on a very calorie poor diet for a couple of years, so they're going to be very underweight and you won't get 6 months of food out of them however well you ration it. --Tango (talk) 19:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You could stretch it much further if you decide on your target population, and butcher and freeze the remainder in advance. If you only need one breeding pair, you could probably keep them alive until the sun became a red giant. Of course, some of the remainder might object. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Something that no one has mentioned yet, is that high rates of cannibalism could also promote the development and spread of a prion disease similar to Kuru.--Aspro (talk) 19:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The OP began with rabbits eating themselves. Given that rabbits are herbivores, we are already in hypothetical territory. If we had a carnivore (say, these already odd rabbits) which could also photosynthesise like plants, they could use sunshine as an extra energy source. Maybe cannibalism would work then. HiLo48 (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, but rabbits do sometimes eat their own (usually stillborn) young. I probably ought to cite something ... the information is probably somewhere in rabbit it's in Infanticide_(zoology).  Card Zero  (talk) 21:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

facebook related question

So, I have been reccomended getting an account on facebook, but the problem is that my social life at the moment is a little complicated and awkward, I am wondering, would I be right in thinking that if I had an account everyone that I knew could find it, and then find each other through that? Also, I would not be allowed two, would I, to keep different aspects of my private life separate from each other?

148.197.80.214 (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

According to the Facebook rules, you're not supposed to have two accounts (section 4.2 of their TOS). Though I know at least 5 people who do. Dismas|^(talk) 21:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(after e/c) :I don't know what FB's rules say, except that you are supposed to be at least 13 to have an account. I do know of individuals who have accounts not in their real names and who have more than one account (each in a different name, though I think none of this is actually permitted). Your name can be found, perhaps: I have certainly searched for names I knew were being used, but to no avail. If it is found, others can only read what parts you make public. (Note that "public" is the default, though.) You don't have to permit anyone access, and you can remove people from your friends' list at will. You can also create groups of people that only receive (or see) certain messages. Bielle (talk) 21:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

So, if I didn't want for example one group of friends/colleagues to know about another group, I could keep them apart and up to date on two different sets of information without them knowing I was doing so? What about this rumour I have heard that the site randomly sends people information about friends of friends in case they are interested in each other? 148.197.80.214 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If the two personas you are using have friends, or friends of friends, in common, then you will get suggestions that you might like to add these common friends to your list of friends. These common friends will likely also get suggestions about adding you. You don't have to do anything about this, and you can ignore requests from them to be added to your list. What you can't do is keep one account entirely secret from the other if they have anyone in common. They will know the other account exists, but not whose it is (unless you are using your own name on one of them). I wouldn't count on them remaining secret, though Bielle (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Bielle) For the first question, there is a way to prevent a list of your friends from being displayed on your profile [19]. However, there may still be ways for inquisitive people to discover who your friends are - according to that blog post, Facebook considers friend lists "public information". So if you're friends with boyfriend A, boyfriend B may be able to see that somehow, even if you hide your friend list.

An additional problem is your wall. You can set who can see your wall (basically either "everyone" or "my friends", or "only me"), but you can't set it so only selective sets of your friends can see a given post. So you could set it so only you can see stuff posted on your wall, which would work fine, but most people don't really use Facebook that way (they prefer to be able to snoop at what other people are having posted). But if you set your wall to "friends only" (or worse, "everyone"), then when boyfriend A posts saying "I love you", boyfriend B (and all of your other friends) can see that.

It is indeed against the rules to have multiple accounts, but if you aren't using them maliciously, you are unlikely to get caught. If some people know about both of your accounts, though, it may be hard to keep the existence of one secret from people. If you do want to get on Facebook, this is probably the best way to go.

Finally, remember that no matter how hard you try to keep things private, Facebook is ultimately geared towards getting your information out there. Facebook is not your friend. Facebook is trying to make money off of you. They do this by offering a free service that encourages you to give them, and others, your information. Privacy settings seem to change every year or so when Facebook rolls out a new design, and default settings are often changed towards less privacy. Facebook makes money by advertising, and they can make more money if advertisers know more about you. user:Nimur has made a number of good posts on the subject. Take a look at some of the articles he linked to on his talk page last August. Buddy431 (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

how do i find the value of a confederate $50 printing block