Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Active alerts

anti-masonry author

I am reporting behaviour by Blueboar on the discussion page of Anti-Masonry which violates Wikipedia policies and guidelines. His comments are disrespectful at best, include obscenities, a personal attack, and a personal view point. --BlueRider12 19:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Please post diffs, notify the user, and correct your custom signature per WP:CUSTOMSIG. Thanks! Gerardw (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

No need to notify me... as for diffs... just take a quick look at Talk:Anti-Masonry and you will see the situation. Not sure why "BlueRider12" insists on removing the fact that his normal user page is Bpell (talk • contribs). I assume he wishes to change his user name and does not know how to do so. Blueboar (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

My view is that Blueboar has not breached Wikipedia’s code of conduct.

Bpell (also known as BlueRider12) displays strong views, perhaps extreme views, that are not compatible with an encyclopedia. Such views are always likely to arouse strong passions on Wikipedia. Bpell should practise objective thinking, focussing on what is factual or what can be supported by sound evidence, rather than focussing on opinions that are either strongly-expressed or attractive.

All Users should sign their names on Talk pages using four tildes. Bpell is not doing so. If he wants to change username to BlueRider12 this can be done. See WP:Changing username.

These two Users are managing to antagonise each other very successfully. It would be in everyone’s interests if they both took a rest from Anti-Masonry for a while.

Blueboar has written Actually, Wikipedia does not have a 'No obscenities' policy. (See diff) In fact, Wikipedia does have WP:PROFANITY. Also see Should Wikipedia Use Profanity? The Wikipedia community is an extremely diverse one, with a broad spectrum of acceptable behaviours. Behaviour that is acceptable to one small group of Users won’t always be acceptable to the general Wikipedia community. Obscenities don’t constitute objective language so they don’t promote good content on Wikipedia and they don’t help explain what Users are trying to say. In an encyclopedia it is much more effective for Users to demonstrate they have the skill to say what they mean without having to resort to meaningless obscenities. Dolphin (t) 23:50, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, WP:PROFANITY really refers to article content and not talk page content... but the point is taken and accepted. Next time I will use a less "obscene" word. thank you for taking the time to look into this, Dolphin. Blueboar (talk) 00:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Consult WP:CIVIL for the specifics of using profanity on a talkpage. --King Öomie 03:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I went and looked at that page, and it talks about profanity directed at another contributor, not profanity directed at theories. BS is a common shorthand for patently false material that hasn't a leg to stand on, not a directed insult. As we are here on wikipedia to discuss and improve content, and not to comment on personalities, calling the idea that are supported by the Taxil Hoax BS seems to be in keeping with commenting on content.--Vidkun (talk) 18:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I have moderate views, contrary to certain other people, and I am more objective than the average person, and such views are compatible with an encyclopedia. I find Dolphin's views to be very subjective. My views are based on facts as I have shown already but there are other facts, too, to back up my claim, but this will only arouse more opposition from biased people who like to deny the evidence and who use straw man arguments. I am not on Wikiqette alerts to debate that point. And I have no intention of continuing any debate on the articles talk page because I made my point already. It is not the point on this page and is irrelevant. It is a matter of civility. Also I do sign my name. Why is Dolphin saying I'm not?--BlueRider12 18:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I am non-practising, secular, and atheistic, so I don't have a bias. And it is Dolphin who should learn objective thinking.

I see that this is not going anywhere so I am taking the matter to the Arbitration Committee. Thanks, nonetheless, to all of you for your input. --BlueRider12 14:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

45g, Michaeldsuarez, and Snaisybelle

• User talk:Snaisybelle
• User talk:Michaeldsuarez/Archive 1
• User talk:45g

This is a continuation of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive609#45g.2C_Michaeldsuarez.2C_and_Snaisybelle. The discussion was archived without being revolved, and the conflict hasn't ended. The conflict is mostly between 45g and Snaisybelle, but 45g has made attempts to involve me in the conflict as well. This conflict is rooted in Encyclopedia Dramatica's "Grace Saunders" article and has unfortunately spread to Wikipedia. The conflict involves uncivil behavior and passing out of personal information.

User:45g is the subject of the "Grace Saunders" article and User:Snaisybelle rewrote that article in the February of 2010. Snaisybelle is presently a sysop at ED. In February, 45g vandalized Snaisybelle's user page and talk page with personal attacks. User:DMacks then deleted those pages and gave 45g a warning.

I'm also a ED user, so I left a welcome message for Snaisybelle on April 1, 2010. This is probably why 45g decided to target me later in the month. ON April 19, 45g left the first of a series of messages for me. 45g proceed to made demands and such.

45g told a sysop that I was vandalizing his talk page, despite the fact that I never vandalized his page. I believe that 45g was attempting to "false flag" me in order to get me blocked.

45g acts uncivil and breaks several policies. As seen in this revision, 45g says Snaisybelle's last name. 45g has also made legal threats, which is against WP:LEGAL. As seen on User_talk:Snaisybelle, 45g has also made personal attacks. 45g has also falsely accused me of being a vandal.

Snaisybelle has also made personal attacks, as seen in this reference.

I came here, since 45g is "false flagging" once again. Instead, of following WP:Conflict resolution, 45g is continuously seeking to get Snaisybelle and me banned. 45g false flagged Snaisybelle, and called her a "crazy English user".

If I can't resolve the conflict here, I'll seek WP:Arbitration.

--Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It should also be noted that User:45g has recently removed my comment to User:ThinkBlue. I believe that it's an attempt to hide this discussion from ThinkBlue in order to get Snaisybelle blocked. I don't think that 45g should be allowed to continue "false flagging" users. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

• I blanked the pages so they would stop accusing me of adding crap. They've been "plotting" all this on other pages. They egg me on because they want 'me' banned. Not the other way around. Anyway, I'll be ignoring these pair. They both spend hours of their life editing on ED and then revert the edits when the people discover it later on, because they have no lives and seem to enjoy harassing people they don't even know. Even Australia is trying to sue that site for the aforementioned slander, so I'm not alone. Would you really want to trust a mod from a site like that? I've been a contributor on Wikipedia and many forums for years. I've never argued or went out of line once, and I've never been bothered by anyone or been accused of being a nuisance, 'til now. Just go to ED and type in Grace Saunders, September 11, Heath Ledger or Michael Jackson and you'll see the sick pages they keep under lock and key.45g (talk) 18:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
  • 45g, we're not here to discuss the content and the quality of ED articles; we're here to discuss your behavior. Snaisybelle and I aren't plotting against you. We simply want you to stop harassing us on Wikipedia. There isn't some anti-45g conspiracy or cabal. If you believe that we're plotting against you, then you should provide evidence. In addition, I believe that you're the one who's trying to get Snaisybelle and me banned, which can be seen here and here. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The diffs you provide above show 45g's complaints not going anywhere. Your responses are merely escalating the situation. Would it be possible to just ignore them? Gerardw (talk) 00:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

How will ignorance solve anything? Should we ignore the elephant in the room? Leaving a problem unresolved doesn't fix the problem. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

• Consider this matter dropped. Do not put any further comments about this on my talk pages ANYWHERE.45g (talk) 20:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • I haven't touched your talk page since April 22. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• I see you're still up to your crap.

http://bullyinglte.wordpress.com/2007/05/29/cyberbullying-ryan-halligans-story/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 45g (talk • contribs) 21:43, 30 April 2010

I'm guessing that you've meant to link to this comment: [1]. I'm not sure of what crap you're accusing us of doing. Are you accusing me of impersonating you on that blog? That isn't me. I don't impersonate other users. I'm not a cyberbully. Nevertheless, someone is impersonating you on Wikipedia. An anonymous user left a threat on my talk page, but I doubt that it's the real Grace Saunders. Grace is from the UK, while the anonymous user is from the US. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 01:55, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

45g, 1) please don't make personal attacks 2) off wikipedia behavior is not relevant. Gerardw (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

45g has tried to get me banned for the third time now. He continues to call me a vandal. 45g also continues to ignore this thread and go straight to the sysops. In fact, 45g told a sysop not to notify me or the other parties involved, and he is using Emails instead of addressing his concerns in an open environment. I feel that 45g is trying to keep Snaisybelle and me out of the loop by creating a private Email discussion. 45g may attempt to ban us without us having a say. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

• Hi. I don't even know these two jokers personally. I only know them because of ED. They are adding sockpuppet tags to old Wikipedia accounts I've not used in years. They found them by stalking my IP address. I've also made many edits to articles using my IP but without logging in. I either forgot to log in or a log in was not required to edit whatever it was I was editing. Also, they are apparently trying to keep Wikipedia from being mentioned on ED in order to hide the fact they are stalking me. Yet they constantly put my photos, dead links and e-mail messages on it without my permission. That's called harassment. Also, they add nothing to Wikipedia. Absolutely nothing. They're only here due to their obsessed methods of hassling me.45g (talk) 21:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I contribute to Wikipedia. I would also like to draw all your attention towards this revision by Snaisybelle. I believe that 45g attempted to hack into Snaisybelle's account, and he accidentally clicked the "Email new password" button in the process. I would like 45g to stop harassing Snaisybelle and me. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 00:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Stalking from User:Snowded

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – content dispute Gerardw (talk) 09:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my poor english. My english skill is not good. so, i attacked by fluent english editor. I blocked as 3rr by this user report, after that, This user try to stalking all my edits, and continually reverting and give warning to me. Even I point out wrong edit. he did not discuss topic, and try to accusing me as bad editor. I have a right reason to revert POV and vandalism, hoax edit, I have a right reason to edit But, he is a fluent english speaker, so he can depict me as vandalism editor by his fluent english skill. I really feel unfair. Even admin believe this user than me. I really feel unfair. I know My english skill is not good, so i have not persuade skill. I can't point out what is the wrong edit by this user. I can't touch any edit by this user. I want discuss and editing article. I'm not want engaging edit war. He try to harrasing every single my edits, I can't point out Even '100% wrong'(hoax) edit by this user. I want espacing from this bad faith user's stalking. 660gd4qo (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

block record and 3RR report. Straight back from block and making exactly the same edits. Not sure s/he understands what stalking is about--Snowded ^TALK 19:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

admin believe this user than me. admin UNFAIRY block me. I already punished by you. After realese, I continually purnished by you? I can't edit any thing by this stalker. Even i have a enough evidence. 660gd4qo (talk) 19:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking at this edit. Why are you removing sourced material? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

POV and content Forking.[2] It was edited by throw away newbie acct (account for this topic). It was not major delete. I was "return"(revert) to before this newbie acct edit. and it was not actually sourced material. unclear offline book name reference. we can't confirm its sources. And i point out several 100% HOAX edit. 660gd4qo (talk) 19:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a closer look but two points here: 1) "Newbies" are free to edit as much as established editors are. We judge contributions on content, not on who made them. 2) References to books are perfectly valid (assuming we can verify the existence of the book) as we can go to a library to verify the cite backs up the content. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you, but the Snowded keep reverting exactly same edit. and vio 3rr. Would you have a quick look?

[3] revert exactly

[4] revert exactly

[5] revert exactly

[6] revert exactly

[7] revert exactly 660gd4qo (talk) 19:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Quick looks shows an incredible mess, and no stalking.

I am unwilling to repeat Snowded's revert, as it reverts to another damaged version, but this present state is not acceptable, as "South Korea" did not exist in the 19th century, and the FIERCE POV push does not belong.

I would encourage the editor to create this article in his or her native tongue, then request that it be translated, as the current method seems to be failing, and the editor professes a strong language barrier.- Sinneed 19:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I have no particular interest in the Korean article in question but a cursory glance at the history of that article shows that you, 660gd4qo are the cause of the problems there. I am not sure whether it is simply you poor understanding of the English language that is your problem or your unwillingness to abide by the conventions of Wikipedia or a combination of both but it is apparent that you are the architect of this entire mess. I recommend you stop editing the English Wikipedia until your grasp of the language is sufficient for you to properly understand what is going on here. You make personal attacks on other editors and complain that they are therefore somehow at fault. You accuse an editor of stalking you, when in fact all I can see is that editor trying to fix up the incredible mess you have made of the article. If you want to continue to edit the English Wikipedia then please take the advice you have already been given and find yourself a mentor and pay close attention to what he or she tells you. Please cease and desist from your disruptive editing patterns, thay are of such a scale that they themselves are a Wikiquette issue. If you really feel you must make further changes to the article, then please discuss them on the talk page first and then abide by the concensus - and if you can't reach consensus on a particular edit DO NOT MAKE IT. - Nick Thorne ^talk 22:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Concur that 660gd4qo edits' have been inappropriate (they're currently) blocked, but looking at the 11 April version of the article (before they started editing) the article was still a mess. An entire section of unsourced POV edits. Gerardw (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Snowded still edit warred. It was not blatant vandalism. All of the talk of seeing the talk page in Snowded's edit summaries but he is was edit warring himselfCptnono (talk) 02:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but that's not a WQA issue. Frankly I think this case should be closed as "not a WQA issue". If someone wants to report edit warring, this is not the place. - Nick Thorne ^talk 05:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Atmoz "your English sucks"

The fact that your English sucks and you think you can contribute to the English Wikipedia is your problem, not mine". Is it acceptable to talk to another editor this way? Cla68 (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

No, not really. I've left the editor a note to the effect on their talk page. Gerardw (talk) 01:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Pigeonholing?

This, by Guettarda appears to be pigeonholing of another editor. That comment follows one by this editor calling part of the other editor's proposed text, "worthless". These statements don't appear to me to be very conducive to a productive talk page discussion, but I would welcome a second opinion. Cla68 (talk) 05:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

We comment on edits, not editors ... I see a whack of edits that go against policy, and Guettarda called him on it by commenting on those edits. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Don't see anything particularly wrong with either diff given. Gerardw (talk) 09:32, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

"Worthless" was a poorly chosen word. It's not nice to have your effort described as "worthless". Guettarda (talk) 13:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

True that ... but without prior attempts to discuss, a lack of negative history regarding the editor, a WQA filing is also somewhat premature. Calling it "pigeonholing" has WP:ABF all over it. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

WP Talkpage being used to discuss editor; canvassing

An editor seems to be using the Israel-Palestine Collaboration talk page to launch personal complaints about another editor. While some level of user commentary can be expected on talk pages, saying you are posting to "warn" other editors about a specific user is, in my opinion, misuse of a Wikiproject talk page. I would appreciate it if another editor could take a look and chime in. --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 08:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the comments belong in a user WP:RFC, not an article talk page, as already pointed out by other editors on the talk page. Gerardw (talk) 09:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I would add that the below reflects further contemporaneous canvassing, etc. against me of similar ilk, by the same editor:

• "would appeciate if while I get some shut eye you could keep an eye on this article and make sure no one reverts my edits while I'm away from my computer."
• "If you know any like minded editors who feel like I do I would ask that you please notify them."
• "If he reverts my edits again will you please try and restore them."
• "Epeefleche ... has reported me on the edit war noticeboard .... if you could please speak on my behalf"
• "I would appreciate it if you could alert anybody you feel may share the same concerns as you and I"

--Epeefleche (talk) 09:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't see this as a big deal -- per WP:CANVASS I'd classify the notices as "friendly" Gerardw (talk) 09:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

"Friendly" is limited, among other things, to messages that are neutral. It is also limited to messages that do not appear to be attempts to influence a discussion.

The above messages are clearly not neutral, and are obviously attempts to influence a discussion. Precisely the type of canvassing we see here is described at wp:canvass as improper Votestacking and Campaigning.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

All I've done is what I felt was a biased editing pattern of Epeefleche on a particular messageboard. I don't see how I've defamed epeefleche in any way. I simply wanted to bring the issue to like minded editors.

As for the canvassing charge it is plain false. All the editors above had made prior contributions to the articles in question, I didn't select them at random. Epeefleche has shown a pattern on the Steve Emerson article of ignoring the rules of trying to reach a consensus and simply reverting my edits even though another editor John Z said he agreed with my edits. annoynmous 09:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Sense Epeefleche won't let this go I'll address them once again. John Z contibuted to the article and talk page before I ever posted on his page. He agreed with my edits and I simply asked him to perserve my edits when I went to asleep. Epeefleche also continually refuses to mention that one of those posts was in response to intimidating posts he left on my talk page.

As for Carelmooredc, for proper contect here are the intial edits I made to his page:

I don't know if you've checked in on this article lately, but it's now highly slanted against Arian. This is due largely to the editor Epeefleche. I thought about making edits to it, but I've been involved in some nasty edit wars recently and don't feel like getting into another long drawn out fight at this moment. I just wanted to bring it to your attention. annoynmous 04:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't feel like a fight either - except I'm the fighting Irish so I probably won't be able to control myself... :-) Also will alert some folks if you haven't on a couple relevant pages. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

It was after these edits that I made the comments above that epeefleche listed. As you see it was carelmooredc who intially suggested the idea of contacting other people, not me. annoynmous 00:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have to say that I clearly feel these are canvassing based on WP:CANVASS which says "Canvassing is sending messages to Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion. Under certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, but messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and may be considered disruptive." Annoynmous clearly has a view of what he considers a preferred outcome, and was attempting to get others to "make sure no one reverts," to "restore" his edits, and to try and find like-minded individuals to edit the page(s). This of course is an effort to edit the article via tagteam to assure his POV is maintained, and to develop consensus by other means. Not good, in my view.

Would like to add that I was offended by the original post put up at I-P collab both in connection with Epeefleche and with Jayjg, whom he also felt fit to insult. However, it is unsurprising that he did attempt to put them up at I-P collab, for while it claims to be collaborative, or should I say pretends to be, it is in fact a group that comes down heavily on one side only. Stellarkid (talk) 02:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The examples provided show canvassing or attempted tagteaming. The "like minded editors" comment reeks of bad form. A warning that such comments are not acceptable would be completely justified if he is not already aware of the standards.Cptnono (talk) 03:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again I only left messages on John Z's page after he contributed to the article and talk page. I merely informed him that epeefleche had reverted my edits and that he was intimidating me on my talk page. Same thing for Carelmooredc, I merely asked him if he wanted to contribute to the article. Canvassing is posting messages on random editors pages who have nothing to do with the article and attempting to sway there opinion. If people have contributed to the article in the past, Canvassing guidelines allow you to post on there talk pages as long as you aren't trying to convince them of something. If you look at both John Z and carelmooredcs talk pages you will see I didn't need to convince them of anything.

As for the noticeboard, I'm sorry I used the jayjg comparison intially and have removed that from the article heading. However, once again I wasn't advocating any ban or discipline against epeefleche, I was just alerting people to what I felt was a biased editing pattern. I didn't call him names or make any accusations about him, I just expressed my opinion of his edits.

Also I must say it's pretty rich for stellarkid to go off on the I/P noticeboard after his and epeefleches antics on the steve merson article. Epeefleche refused to discuss a consensus and arbitrally removed both tags and edits without discussion on the talk page. Epeefleche recently engaged in a failed attempt to ban me by falsely claiming I violated the 3rr. Stellarkid contributed to this by claiming that an edit I made was a revert when it wasn't. As I said on the Emerson talk page it seemed like both editors were less interested in reaching a consensus than they were looking for a reason to get me banned so I would go away. annoynmous 04:17, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

To Clear up this matter with John Z in particular here are some posts from my talk page:

Sami Al-Arian‎

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 09:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how, no 3rr violations, and he has been quite forthcoming in discussion. He has hardly edited the article except for the tag, which I also support. Ism, please stop making gigantic changes without consensus. Like declaring disputes over unilaterally, that is not normal procedure. I strongly oppose the changes. Epee is neutral, and annoynmous hasn't weighed in. John Z (talk) 21:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Steven Emerson

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Steven Emerson‎. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. You are tag-bombing the article, and edit warring. It is not sufficient to say "I don't like" this book by MacMillan, but I like and will shove in this non-RS piece. That's not even consistent. And your tag needs legitimate reasons behind it -- you aren't supplying any. You are forcing in wildly non-RS material, while deleting RS material. Please stop. Conversation on the talk page seems not to affect your editing. Epeefleche (talk) 09:03, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

As it has continued, I've now raised the issue of your behavior here.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

As you can see John Z agreed that the editor Ism Schism was abusing me when I hadn't violated any rules. When Epeefleche tried the same thing I alerted John Z hoping he would speak on my behalf. When epeefleche falsely claimed I violated the 3rr I again asked John Z to speak on my behalf because he agreed with my edits to the article and I wanted to show that epeefleche was the real edit warrior, not me. annoynmous 04:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2's personal attacks on WP:ANI

I am submitting this report on the advice of an administrator.

Ludwigs2 has been behaving disruptively on WP:ANI. During e failed attempt by Ludwigs2 to generate a topic ban on me, which has nosupport from the community or administrators, he made a series of personal attacks in the following thread:

[8]

This involved swearing, using the phrase "if Mathsci physically threatened to kill you", calling me an "inveterate ass", using the word "bitch-fest", and then writing, "Somehow I suspect the answers to those questions will always be the same... Also, they have some marvelous new therapies available for clinical manifestations of paranoia. How frequently do you have these fears that people are conspiring against you?"

Two administrators GeorgeWilliamHerbert [9] and Fences&Windows [10] gave Ludwigs2 some kind of warning. I requested that he redact his remarks and apologise. Ludwigs2 paid no attention to any of these remarks.

Comments of this type seem to be personal attacks, intended to cause offense, and are unacceptable on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 16:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm debating whether to

1. to post diffs of the dozens of times that Mathsci has called me a POV-pusher (or worse), asserted that I was conspiring with others against him, launched all-out assaults on my character, and/or tried to get me banned from wikipedia, or
2. let this silliness slide.

all of his claims above are taken out of context, except for the fact that I called him an inveterate ass, which strikes me as a factual assessment of his behavior rather than a personal attack.

If anyone is interested, I can easily justify any comment that Mathsci might have a problem with, and I will certainly apologize for any comment that I cannot justify. get him to post a diff of something he objects to, let me know, and we'll discuss the matter. --Ludwigs2 18:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

1 - So if Ludwigs2 assumes that he can justify his incivility, it's fine?

2 - Wow! Ludwigs2 justifies his own incivility. RfCU anyone?

Justifying your incivility does not excuse your incivility. If you cannot behave in a civil manner, take a break from Wikipedia until you can control your behavior.

WP:CIVIL states, "Even during heated debates, editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, in order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment." --Ronz (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if this has any bearing on this report ( I don't frequent WQA ), but Ludwigs2 was recently blocked, then unblocked, seemingly in relation to comments wrt Mathsci. See [11]. –xeno^talk 20:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Shit happens. It's of little consequence.

The way I see it, this is a great opportunity for Mathsci and I to settle our differences. If he's willing to engage the issue, we might be able to do that in a couple of different ways. I have an idea about that, which I'll float out if he asks. Or we can just discuss things and come to some type of mutual understanding. The operative question, of course, is whether he's willing to meet me half-way. that's up to him. --Ludwigs2 21:26, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

[statement completely refactored as requested and resubmitted below] Mathsci (talk) 08:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I admire Ludwigs2's responses here and on his talk.

Mathsci's response above is shockingly incivil. I hope he'll take some time to gather himself, then refactor it while providing diffs. --Ronz (talk) 23:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I am concerned by Ludwigs2's behavior in this matter too, but I agree that Mathsci's response above was inappropriate. Mathsci, please strike your comment; it's an inappropriate personal attack. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Done. Mathsci (talk) 09:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

If any progress is to be made on Mathsci’s complaint it is essential that he or she provide diffs to illustrate his complaint clearly. Here is an example of a diff. The links Mathsci provided above do not illustrate his complaint adequately to allow it to be considered seriously.

To find out about diffs and how to produce them, see WP:CDLG#How to harvest a diff and WP:DIFF . Dolphin (t) 00:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I provided the time-frozen passage from WP:ANI and two other admin diffs. But here are some of the diffs [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]

that probably contributed to Ludwigs2's block. It's easier to read the whole passage in this case. As the diff I cited by Fences&Windows pointed out, Ludwigs2's edits involved hyperbole, swearing and and personal insults. Mathsci (talk) 09:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd welcome diffs as well. If Mathsci provides them, with an explanation of how the particular diffs have offended him, that will allow us to discuss them and reach some kind of understanding. I feel confident that anything I said is justifiable (or at least excusable), but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it and redress anything that needs to be redressed.

I'm not a liar, and while I might not be up to Mathsci's rather extensive level of contributions, I do enough. I'll add that it's hard for me to amass contributions when I find myself dragged through wikiquette, ANI, or other procedural headaches every time I do try and edit productively on some of the topics that interest me. hopefully that unfortunate circumstance will be resolved (in part, at least) here. But as I said, that is up to Mathsci: if he is willing to meet me half-way on this, we can move forward; if not... As Ronz suggested in my talk, I'd like it if Mathsci would do some refactoring to his post above, as well as providing appropriate diffs. Mathsci, would that be possible? --Ludwigs2 04:16, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

As someone who’s had to deal with the same behavior from Mathsci that Ludwig is describing here, I’d like to second the request that this be resolved somehow, although I’m also somewhat skeptical of whether Mathsci will be willing to put forth the effort necessary for that. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Diffs have been provided above. Strict adherence to wikipedia core policies seems to be the appropriate way to discuss civil POV-pushing edits by single purpose accounts editing only race-related articles. Mathsci (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

[refactored statement] Ludwigs2 's statements consistently misrepresent my own actions and statements. At the moment he appears to be enabling a series of single purpose POV-pushing accounts. He consistently describes phrases like that as uncivil, arrogant or even screaming, etc, etc. In the above passage on WP:ANI he was extremely abusive, without reason. He has claimed apparently that this abuse was somehow justified, but that seems to be a misrepresentation of events. His content editing record is meagre; for some reason he seems to have singled out a more experienced content editor for abusive comments. This unfortunately is not an isolated incident. Here is an example on wikipedia where I asked for help about an article on WP:NPOVN. He has never edited this article or its talk page and was not mentioned in any way in the request. But again the tone used in the edit is unmeasured and insulting: he swears and uses the word "paranoid grandstanding". These kinds of interruption, like the subthread he initiated on WP:ANI, usually have the effect of preventing a properly reasoned discussion and diverting attention from the real problem (the editing by the SPAs) as several administrators have pointed out. If Ludwigs2 disagrees with the analysis by myself and various administrators of the editing patterns of a small group of users, that is certainly no reason for him to make edits describing me as "paranoid" or "arrogant" or other forms of extreme and insulting rhetoric. In that sense, as here, whenever this small group of single purpose accounts has come under discussion, Ludwigs2's edits seems to have been consistently misrepresenting my own editing record. Mathsci (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC) rewritten by Mathsci Mathsci (talk) 08:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Neither Ludwigs2 nor Mathsci has been entirely civil, but Mathsci's attempt to portray Ludwigs2 as having made gross attacks is completely unrealistic. I do not intend to go through each of Mathsci's claims one by one and analyse them, but by way of illustration I will deal with one of them. Mathsci says that Ludwigs2 said "if Mathsci physically threatened to kill you". Yes, that is true. The context in which it was said was an attempt to convey the message "some editors are so determined to support Mathsci that they would oppose a topic ban no matter how unreasonable Mathsci might be, if Mathsci physically threatened to kill you". This is a rhetorical exaggeration, and in its context could not reasonably be taken literally. Furthermore, it is a criticism not of Mathsci but of other editors. Mathsci has (both in this discussion and elsewhere) taken this quotation out of context, and tried to make it look like an attack on him/her. Having read through many of Mathsci's comments in various places I do not think that the misrepresentation by Mathsci is malicious, but rather he/she seems to have difficulty understanding the way other people communicate and a great difficulty understanding metaphor and other non-literal use of language. He/she has a strong tendency to see more malice than is intended. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:41, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I have examined the six diffs provided by Mathsci to support his complaint against Ludwigs2. I have seen no evidence that Ludwigs2 has breached Wikipedia's WP:Code of conduct. I agree that some of Ludwigs2's statements have been a little aggressive, but clearly there is a lot of aggression, from all directions, on the Talk pages visited by these two Users. I think it will be in everyone's interests if both Mathsci and Ludwigs2 take a break from these particular articles for a while, and return ready to focus on content and not on personalities. If, at some time in the future, either Mathsci or Ludwigs2 perceives the other to be behaving unreasonably he should remain perfectly civil and report the behaviour, supported by the diff, at WP:WQA. Dolphin (t) 12:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Dolphin: the funny thing is, I don't want to take a break from the article (in part) for exactly the same reason that Mathsci doesn't. The article is a bit too pro-hereditarian, and both he and I would like to see it pull back towards a mainstream science perspective. he is calling for more extreme revisions than I currently think are necessary, of course, but that's incidental; the problem he and I are having is interpersonal and behavioral, not content-oriented. As I said at ANI, the main reason I would have liked Mathsci to be barred from the page was so that I could argue for NPOV revisions he would approve of without getting into fights with him (or anyone) about it. I communicate well with the other participants on the page, and if Mathsci would cease being uncivil to me and others on the page, we could make a lot of progress

Also, I would prefer to resolve this issue now, since it's already been going on for a month. It started when Mathsci took over a more-or-less justified ANI complaint about user TechnoFaye, and morphed it into an attack on me. Diffs:

• [18] - Mathsci co-opts the thread to start attacking the mediation (note that at this time I had been clearly listed and active as mediator for something like a month)
• [19] general complaint about the article itself, plus claim that there 'is no neutral mediator'
• [20] my response (a bit belated - I hadn't been notified of the thread)
• [21] - Mathsci's response: basically a string of misrepresentations and personal attacks capped by a suggestion that I should be blocked. Note that (in fact) Mathsci was a mediation participant when I volunteered to take over the mediation a month earlier, and had copious time and opportunity to object on the mediation page if he had chosen to do so.
• [22] My response (mostly I passed on his comments, except to comment that he himself had not removed a passage he objected to
• [23] Mathsci's response (after my comment on Faye, starting at line 600), in which he compares me to GoRight (talk · contribs) (whoever that is), indulges in more personal attacks, and claims not to have any interest in editing the article at all.
• [24] my responses (including a correction Mathsci made to his post)
• [25] Mathsci's response, in which he makes a vague assertion about violating core policies (note that he has changed the heading to be more defamatory - this is an ongoing process, where the heading becomes increasingly more persoanl and insulting)
• [26] my response, where I ask for clarification
• [27] Mathsci's response, where he calls me clueless and accusses me of trolling.

It goes on from there, getting progressively worse, and continues for the next month - that's easily hundreds of edits in which Mathsci launches some kind of insulting commentary at me (and yeah, I'll go through and dig out all of the hundreds of diffs, if you'd like, but I think this gives you the idea). I think I have been admirably self-possessed in the face of this kind of onslaught, but I am understandably tired of dealing with it. since he started this wikiquette against me (as he has started so many other proceedings against me), I want to make sure we finish it now, because I don't want to put up with this hostility for the rest of my time on wikipedia. can you sympathize with that? --Ludwigs2 15:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Responding to diffs from Mathsci and Dolphin's response:

I've examined the diffs as well. (The third and fifth are the same comment.) I see incivility and personal attacks, in violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:HARASS. I can provide specifics, especially for those that disagree. --Ronz (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

How about me? What exactly have I done that was so incivil that I deserved [28] "and Hipocrite, save your breath - threatening me isn't going to do you any good, and you've never given me a reason to give a shit about what you think?" Hipocrite (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• I've read through a few of the relevant ANIs to this, as well as some of the comments thrown around here. I think it needs to be said: Mathsci and Ludwig2, there is no doubt in mind that both of you are at fault, and if both of you don't find a way to bury your forks and spades, this is going to end badly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how comments from both sides are inflammatory, assassinating one anothers character, and sometimes treating each other as utterly incompetent. If anything, I should only have to say "work it out" but it appears I need to say more: behave, be respectful to one another, and work it out collegially. Some people can crow all they like that I need to pick diffs out to show how either of you are specifically acting inappropriately, but it won't change the bare effect of my comment. If necessary, Mathsci, reread JamesBWatson's comment 3 times and Ludwig2, some of your comments have also not been reasonable at all, so reread his comment as if it is addressed to you. Dolphin is absolutely correct - if this dispute is to have any chance of being resolved, be it voluntarily or even if it is involuntarily, Mathsci and Ludwig2 need to take a break now! To summarise: both of you - if you both don't want this to end badly, take a break, and when you come back, proceed with the strict goal of working it out collegially and respectfully. That's all for now. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Also noting my agreement with Gerardw's comment (18:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)) below. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Neither editor's contributions seem to indicate an understanding and internalization of the pillars of Wikipedia. As examples of Mathsci's have already been documented, I'll note that this sample edit from Ludwigs2 [[29]] is an example of inappropriate post from that editor. The bigger issue is a recurring theme in the threads here and elsewhere indicate the misconception that another editor's action justifies inappropriate behavior, as indicated by:

1. Ludwigs2's contention that his contributions can be justified.

2. Mathsci's reference to the number of Ludwigs2 edits as some sort of metric to anything. WP is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, remember?

3. Hippocrite's query as to what he did to deserve an intemperate remark (answer: nothing, because nothing you can do changes the standards of how other editors are supposed to behave.)

The first fallacy here is that either editor's contributions justify third party editors parsing through diffs to ascertain which editor's contributions indicate less jerky behavior.

It also seems to me that it is not realistic to refer an unresolved WP:ANI dispute here. As an informal non binding mechanism, it really only works well to resolve minor disputes caused by miscommunication or when editors who are willing to respond to community consensus are involved. The evidence I have skimmed indicates both editors are more interested in being right that in putting the best interests of Wikipedia first.Gerardw (talk) 18:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC

I'm fine with letting this go (despite comments to the contrary, I have no invested perspective here; I just want to stop getting kicked in the teeth). If I do, however, please tell me how I should respond the next time Mathsci calls me or some other editor we're working with a 'Scum-Sucking POV-Pusher' (or similar name-calling, or threatens people with blocks/bans, or other crapulence like that - there are dozens upon dozens upon dozens of examples of him doing so on ANI and the R&I talk and mediation pages). I am not inclined to put up with abuse of that sort indefinitely, whether directed at me or at others, and I do not believe anyone is justified in asking me to do so (if that's what you're asking). I'm looking for a solution here, but that solution is not going to involve Mathsci being allowed to spit on me any time he damned well pleases. --Ludwigs2 23:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2, thanks for your ten diffs. I have read them all carefully. You asked if I can sympathise with that? Yes, I can. I see that an environment of provocation and aggression has existed for a significant time, and I understand that both of you want to see a major improvement.

Your role on this occasion is to defend yourself against the complaint made by Mathsci. I think you have done that and, considering the environment of provocation and aggression, my view is that you have not breached Wikipedia’s WP:Code of conduct, at least not to the point that action needs to be taken against you.

You have not made a complaint at WP:WQA against Mathsci so, apart from noting that Mathsci seems to be giving as good as he gets, this is not an exercise in assessing Mathsci’s behaviour. You have endured what you perceive to be inappropriate behaviour from Mathsci for what you claim to be hundreds of edits. In that time you have attempted to defend yourself against Mathsci by matching aggression with aggression. From the perspective of the WQA community this is not a good strategy. It is more effective to respond to perceived aggression by being perfectly civil; then if the perceived aggression continues until tolerance is exhausted, put the facts before the WQA community. It is almost impossible for the WQA or ANI community to achieve a satisfactory outcome in a long-running dispute in which both complainant and defendant have been slugging it out, blow for blow, for a long time. For this reason, Mathsci’s complaint against you is unlikely to result in any action towards either of you, although as Ncmvocalist has written, it could end badly for both of you.

Seeing you wish to resolve the situation constructively and amicably, I wish you well. Extend the olive branch and remain perfectly civil. If anyone ever displays persistent incivility to the point that your tolerance is exhausted, either walk away or put the facts before the WQA community. Best wishes. Dolphin (t) 23:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• Admin Fences&Windows advised me to make this WQA request. In the WP:ANI diff this administrator wrote, "I suggest that Ludwigs2 find some other articles to spend their time on. Their involvement as mediator helped sink the mediation (due to partisanship), and their input into this thread has merely been disruptive, including swearing, hyperbole, and this proposal to ban a long-time respected editor while enabling the POV-pushing from a series of single-purpose accounts." After the subsequent personal attack, Ludwigs2 was blocked by BozMo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). On WP:ANI multiple administrators support my editing and they completely disagree with Ludwigs2's point of view. The diffs produced by Ludwigs2 above all come from over a month ago on the mediation talk page, where many of Ludwigs2's edits were inappropriate - that is what I think Fences&Windows meant by "helped sink the mediation (due to partisanship)". On that page he essentially created his own set of rules as would-be mediator. At the time Ludwigs2 was advised by Xavexgoem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), chair of MedCom, not to drive a good editor from the article. Now Ludwigs2 seems to be ignoring all the feedback he has had from multiple administrators who have disagreed with the point he is expressing here. If he continues in the same way, that will presumably lead to further blocks of this kind or possibly becoming one of the particpants in an ArbCom case. Ludwigs2 made blatant personal attacks and was blocked. Contributors are presumably aware that none of my edits in the diffs produced by Ludwigs2 from last month would come even vaguely close to warranting even a mild warning from an administrator. Nor are diffs a month old any justification for the swearing, hyperbole and personal attack that now seem to be a feature of Ludwigs2's edits. Mathsci (talk) 00:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Another editor (not Ludwigs2) classified one of your edits in this thread as a personal attack. Claims that your comments about your posts are stale are unreasonable. Gerardw (talk) 03:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, Mathsci, you appear to be ignoring the feedback given to you here. Hint: do not respond further, at all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The overwhelming feedback from the community and administrators on Ludwigs2's attempt to topic ban me was very loud and clear: it was strongly opposed to Ludwigs2's suggestions and some administrators criticized his actions. And again Ludwigs2 was blocked for making personal attacks. I redacted one unguarded edit here as soon as requested. Ludwigs2 will indeed incur similar blocks if he continues on the same tack. What he has written below is not in the least bit encouraging. It shows a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude from an editor whose primary purpose on wikipedia does not appear, from his contribution history, to be about adding content. He should take more notice of what administrators like Regents Park, Fences&Windows, dougweller, etc, have been writing and step away from these race-related articles. Mathsci (talk) 07:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me be unambiguously clear: you chose to bring this complaint here...and you're expected to be receptive to the feedback that you receive here (and you're expected to know this if you're an established contributor) - whether you're a subject or a filing party. JamesBWatson, Dolphin, Gerardw, and I (who have referred to every one of these opinions) have stated in no uncertain terms that your behaviour is not up to par and needs to change. In response to this, you keep battling. Each of those admins you allude to are welcome to review this situation and explain why their comments give you a license to abuse dispute resolution as a means of forumshopping for the feedback that you find most convenient for you. And another thing, in case you didn't catch the hint, that the community does not indef ban you (1 individual) from the topic does not mean that a temporary general break isn't overdue for the BOTH of you, and OTHER HEAVILY INVOLVED editors (that is, I think, what all 4 of us have suggested). Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

As I said, Mathsci, that was just the beginning of the problem. you're behavior has continued unabated over the last month, up to and including your second post here (the one which several administrators and editors informed you was deeply uncivil, and that you consequently redacted). enough said.

Now, the only question remaining is whether you are willing to discuss the matter and resolve the issue. I'd like it if you did (because that would end the issue) but if you choose not to that's fine as well, because the more you refuse to work with me to end this squabble, the more obvious it becomes to all that you are acting out of some sort of personal spite. You have three choices now:

1. you can try to resolve the problem with me
2. you can post another personal attack against me
3. you can drop the issue in silence

If you decide on either of the last two options, I think that will be a clear enough statement that you are not operating with any form of good faith, and I can work with that. If you decide on the first option, I can work with that as well. choose. --Ludwigs2 02:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Disagree with that analysis... dropping the issue in silence would be an excellent idea for either or both editor. Gerardw (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, Ludwig2, you appear to be ignoring the feedback given to you here. Hint: do not respond further, at all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Mikemikev

Resolved

 – Filer did not discuss issue with subject; but resolved as subject made assurances.

Mikemikev has accused me three times now of being a Marxist or having a Marxist agenda. He has misrepresented me as having having tried to sully a living person's reputation. His statements seem to have no basis in fact, but he continues to repeat them. [30] [31] [32] [33] [34]

These kinds of comment don't seem very different from this diff of Koalorka (talk · contribs), now indefinitely blocked. [35] Mathsci (talk) 23:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• Mathsci, when you made this ANI topic ban proposal, the community did not come to a consensus, and in doing so, gave you feedback that you need to provide diffs to justify your position. Clearly, this has not sunk into your head because since then, you've made another ANI posting about tag-team editing by a set of individuals without providing diffs - and have named Mikemikev (the subject) as one of those individuals. I'm not sure how many times or ways in which you are going to be whacked with the following fact, but here we go again: you are not being receptive to community feedback - please address that issue. In the meantime, the amount of dispute resolution between you and Mikemikev appears to be insufficient - I see little evidence of you trying to clarify your position to Mikemikev personally. Without attempting to resolve it yourself, expecting others to look at and intervene in every squabble you get yourself into is unreasonable. Finally, WQA is not the venue to seek blocks, nor does it mediate disputes that are being discussed at ANI - please take your issue up with an administrator responding at the relevant thread. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist, what you have written, as when in the past you have commented in place of clerks on ArbCom pages, seems inaccurate and ill-informed. What you have written bears no relation to reality - multiple administrators have stated quite the contrary on the current ANI thread, which you appear not to have read. Anyway, that is beside the point. There is no other venue to discuss repeated personal insults like this and attempted misrepresentation. My content editing contributions - and. yes folks, there are many of them, in many topics, including 5 new articles this month - show rather clearly that I have no point of view in the articles I edit, except adhering to wikipedia policy about the use of sources. There is certainly no Marxist POV. I should point out that Koalorka's personal attack, "butthurt Marxist foaming at the mouth", was redacted by WJBscribe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) a week later - he wrote that he would have blocked him if he'd seen it earlier - and that he was topic banned by Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) from making anti-Turkish edits under an ArbCom ruling. He reacted in this way after I and others had reinstated Turkic groups on Ethnic groups of Europe. The use of the word Marxist as an insult, perhaps common among youngsters with leanings to the far right, does not seem in any way different from what keeps appearing in Mikemikev's edits. It appears to break the normal rules of editing on wikipedia, whatever the context. Mathsci (talk) 07:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Should I respond to this? mikemikev (talk) 09:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
  • I suggest you avoid using the word Marxist to describe another persons position when they say that it isn't their position - that might resolve the issue. Other than a brief assurance, no other response from you is necessary because it is appears to be clear that Mathsci is otherwise using this venue as a battleground. It's his choice if he is going to abuse dispute resolution by stubbornly refusing to follow the norms (What WQA CANNOT do is Impose/enforce blocks, bans, or binding disciplinary measures, nor can it Intervene in content disputes, extreme personal attacks, vandalism or edit war incidents, nor can it Mediate longterm, ongoing conflicts between parties). Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Understood. mikemikev (talk) 10:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Network of Buddhist Organisations

Hostile editors repeatedly attempting to obtain other editors personal details, removing content from main and talk page. Aggressive allegations, using personally belittling language. I have asked that good faith be assumed and explained ad hominems but small minded personal jibes and deceptive tactics such as removing information and then claiming the other editor removed it for tactical reasons continue.94.192.139.167 (talk) 07:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

In order to see your evidence for this complaint it is necessary that you provide diffs to illustrate the offending messages. Here is an example of a diff.

To find out about diffs and how to produce them, see WP:CDLG#How to harvest a diff and WP:DIFF. Dolphin (t) 11:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Offensive inflammatory perhaps defamatory remark.

Wikipedia at the moment states the KKK is extreme right wing.
I debated the point and would like to see at the very least a neutral point on this.
jpgordon on 15:45, 29 April 2010 stated:
” You seem to be confusing this talk page for a Klan application form.”

I would like some advice on this offensive and inflammatory remark.
Before you say, ‘just ignore it’ this is a statement that I am a racist.
This is defamatory and I would like some advice on how to proceed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ku_Klux_Klan#No_original_research

Thank you
--OxAO (talk) 01:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You should proceed by posting a specific WP:DIFF to the comment and notifying the editor there is a discussion here...please post {{subst:WQA-notice}} on their talk page. Gerardw (talk) 02:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

thank you very much

--OxAO (talk) 03:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• The complaining editor originally posted this: "The republicans haven’t changed one Iota they have always been for equal rights all the way down the line. The democrats went from being Anti-black to giving away the farm which started under the new deal Democrat party went from the party of wanting nothing to do with blacks to the party of pity for blacks. Democrats call that being liberal"[36], [37]. That is what jpgordon was responding too. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

thank you Niteshift36. This clearly shows I made no remarks denigrating blacks or any other race.

--OxAO (talk) 06:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

JPGordon's remark does strike me as an unnecessary personal attack. It's not clear the discussion regarding democrats/republicans has to do with Wikipedia; please see WP:SOAPBOX. Gerardw (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

it really has to do with the first page saying the KKK is extreme conservative which it never was. He is saying the democrats were conservative and the republicans were liberals. I believe I disputed that point fairly well.

I believe we do need to establish party affiliation in order to determine if they were right or left wing in this case since the KKK targeted and attacked Republicans. Or are you suggesting we can simply dispense from using political affiliation all together (right or left wing)?

Thank you but how do I deal with him now?

--OxAO (talk) 02:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

• How do you deal with it? Have you considered that the current wording is consensus and that you've argued the consensus with a lot of personal observations and links to wikipedia articles (which aren't valid references)? Niteshift36 (talk) 03:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Is this acceptable Wikiquette?

Per definition below, are the details following a matter of concern?

Wiki-hounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on pages or topics they may edit or debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work, with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor.

Editor Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has taken the following actions against my edits within a 24 hr. period, and are worrisome:

• Deleted large section of article: Democracy
• Deleted another, larger section (9,300KB), 2 minutes later, from Moses
• 7 minutes later, posts a notice to the Fringe noticeboard: Fringe
• Begins filing a series of Speedy deletion requests of images I uploaded and used in 4 different, and unrelated articles: Einstein], Denis Avey, Yoni 1, Yoni 2, Halpern

Note also that multiple talk page discussions were opened regarding the above deletions, including RfCs on both, and the editor has made absolutely no comments there. It's obvious that when an editor's material is being deleted in such manner, and RfCs and Talk page discussions are ongoing, that posting speedies on the editor's unrelated image files, en masse, creates a distraction of attention and cannot reasonably be responded to. Should I assume the users sudden attention to my edits and images is a coincidence? If not, any other suggestions besides posting the question here? Any comments would be appreciated. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

No, of course it is not a coincidence. I came across your dispute with Athenean because I was following certain other disputes Athenean was involved in, so I took a look at his edit history. I didn't comment on the RfC, because before I had an opportunity for it, other editors had already expressed my views better than I could have done. I then had a look at your edit history, as I always do when I find myself in a dispute, to see what kind of fellow Wikipedian I am dealing with. It so happened that my eye was caught by an image upload that I found questionable. Whenever I find somebody making questionable image uploads, I check their log to see if there are more of the same that need cleanup. I'm honestly sorry if you feel stressed by that, but it's just routine. That's what we have contribution logs for. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the teardrop. I like to hope that common sense and common courtesy are also burried somewhere in the WP policies. Removing your speedy-blitz until I can deal with them would be nice. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a mere four images, two of them representing essentially the same issue, the other two extremely straightforward deletion cases that don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of not getting deleted, for all I can see. The only complex one that will need some serious scrutiny is the PUI of the Einstein photograph, but the process gives us two weeks for that. About the others, during the time you took to file this complaint you could easily have given your arguments about why you feel they should be kept instead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• As Future admits, he is certainly following you, which is a necessary but not sufficient element of wikihounding. The question is whether his edits are disruptive -- I'll let someone with better expertise than I pretend to have make that call. See WP:WIKIHOUNDING for more information on this.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Echo Fut.Perf.'s explanation. If an editor finds another user's edit problematic it is quite customary to go through the user's contribution history to check for similar/other problems. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It is not Wikihounding. Future Perfect at Sunrise found and reversed an edit that represented a fringe view and was not even balanced by mainstream views, deleted the same edit that had been made to another article and then posted a message about it on the Fringe Theory noticeboard. That is good editing - removing material that does not conform to WP policy and raising the issue using appropriate dispute resolution. Wikihounding otoh is arbitrarily reversing someone's work. TFD (talk) 20:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Can someone do this?

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – taken to ANI Gerardw (talk)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:DIREKTOR has been deleting messages that I had receved from another editor on my talk page. To make things worste, I had olready told several times to direktor not to post on my talk page (I supose that also means, not to delete nothing...). Here are some usefull diffs:

• 1) The deleting by direktors of posts on my talk page: [38]. Until this moment, he has donne it 3 times (only today, not counting the numerous previos violations).
• 2) One of the ocasions where I had directly expressed that wish to him: [39] (the edit itself, see last comment), or [40], here you can see it in context.
• 3) As seen in previos exemple, he had disrespected me on that in other ocasions, as well.
• 4) One exemple of his clear acknolledge of that fact (knowing that I don´t want him posting on my talk page) is found here [41] where you can see him saying that he didn´t noticed me about a ANY report doing on me, because, in his words: "the user instructed me not to address him".

This user has been extremely disruptive in several articles, and as response, he has irritated quite a number of other editors. If some of them decide to contact me on my talk page, he can report it if there is anything to be reported, but he can´t remove the posts from my talk page, specially if I had expressed him several times before not to intervene there. Can you please do something to prevent this disrupting behavior and prevent him further disrespecting a rightfull wish that I have in him not interfering with my talk page any more? Thanking in advance, FkpCascais (talk) 22:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Please I have to notice the same problem with my talk page, and several more talk page related to articles which seems to be "owned" by User:DIREKTOR. His automatism is so much dangerous than easy to describe: when I add a contribute to any pages in his interest area, and he doesn't approve that contribute, he immediately revert to his version, accusing me to be a sockpuppet of someone banned: a behaviour which made me scared. I already advice him (with this message) not to perseverate accusing me. Look for example at history of the talk page of the article House of Crijević an incredibly different version of House of Cerva, article never existing before and today created by me. Tanks for help to solve this situation.--Theirrulez (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Two things old FkpCascais accidentally forgot to mention:

• 1. Here's the post I removed:
  • "i met the same problem as you with the same user:DIREKTOR, but on another side of his influenced area of wikipedia. His making the wikipedia project dangerously drifting away on the articles regarding his political position. Look to set a dialogue on his discussion page. I'm with you." WP:CLIQUE? WP:CANVASS?
• 2. The guy who posted it - is a sock. The latest sock (created two days ago) by the same bunch of banned sockpuppeteering users that are together fast approaching the amazing number of one hundred socks on enWiki. The same bunch I am continuously harassed by in every way. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you (DIREKTOR) claiming the edits are a personal attack? In any event, it appears you are 3RR on the talk page. If you believe someone is a sock, the appropriate response is not to delete their contributions but rather file a report at WP:SSP. Gerardw (talk) 23:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

What's interesting here is the sheer number of socks. I'd have to hire a secretary to write-up WP:SPI reports on each and every one of them (I'm not joking :(). They're usually just blocked as DUCKS, what I tried to do today was a article repairs and removal of the "usual" sock edits. As for the 3RR, it does not apply to reverting socks so I didn't pay much heed.

At any rate, User:Salvio giuliano had told me just a while back that he "thinks the account is the same user from it.wiki, because he talked to some it.admin about stuff from it.wiki." So now I'm thinking, did I commit a "big mistake", in the words of Theirrulez. For the time being I won't revert the guy, I have to find out if I ought to start apologizing. What I must emphasize once more is that this would be the first time a user edited these articles, pushed the same POV edits as the group of (confirmed) sockpuppeteers, and was actually NOT a sock (that's not all the facts that support my sock assumption, but this as you say is not WP:SPI). On the other hand, this would be somewhere like the 50th time (again, I'm not exaggerating) that such an account would be a sock. Its like I said, there's so many of them they're just blocked as DUCKS by admins. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment. I've already said this, but I think that both users (User:Theirrulez and User:DIREKTOR) are at fault here.

The former came out of the blue and started editing highly controversial articles, without first trying to assess what consensus regarding them was. This would not have started such a mess if the articles he edited had not been being targeted by sockpuppets over and over again.

The latter, knowing that those articles are a socks' playground, immediately assumed bad faith — I'm sure he did that in good faith, I mean he really believed that this user was a sock of another blocked editor —. As a consequence, he reverted and ignored the user (per WP:RBI). His actions were undestandable, I think.

Anyway, I'd conclude that this incident was caused by a major misunderstanding and is, in my opinion now solved. Salvio ( ^{Let's talk 'bout it!}) 12:35, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I´m sorry Salvio, but the report I made has to do with me and my user page. User Direktor has broke the 3RR rule and has removed comments from my talk page while knowing that I forbiten him to intervene in my talk page. FkpCascais (talk) 17:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I am sorry for getting things messed up in my mind!

Anyway, if you wish to report him for WP:3-RR, you may wish to go to WP:AN3, where he will be, at worst, warned, because his edit warring has now ceased, or to WP:ANI, to report the incident to the administrators. Salvio ( ^{Let's talk 'bout it!}) 17:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I followed your advice. Thank you. FkpCascais (talk) 20:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Any POV problems?

User:DIREKTOR accused me to be a sockpuppet every time I contribute to an article already edited by him. I tried to explain him that he shouldn't offend me any more and he must not discredit me saying that.

I also add many reliable source about my contributes with notes, bibliography, pictures too... everything reverted, everything cancelled (my trial to have a dialogue on his talk page too), articles brand new, just written by me (House of Cerva), deliberately moved by him and changed in another version completely different! Now he his accusing me to "push POV edits"!

I consider it as a personal attack, and I decided to notice it here.

Anyways, what's the theorem? I'm a sockpuppet, but if I'm not, my edits are POV!

I think there's something politically not too correct in this. I think Direktor should adopt a most modest profile and a most correct behaviour: stop complaining about socks, stop accusing me and others, but begin to accept different sourcing and contribution on the articles.

If he'll be not able to do that how can be help the Project?

--Theirrulez (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)Sincerely,

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikireader41 continues personal attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kashmir_conflict

• Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts/archive80#Reporting_personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive595#Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41

Background to incidents

• In an attempt to reach consensus with the wikireader about the joining of two paragraphs in the introduction.
• I explained some reason for justification for the joining as both Paragraph had similar info about Pak support of non state actors Then ask what does he/her think,
• He was cooperative at first and ask for clarification of what i was trying to say .
• Then after that ,I try to give additional clarification .
• He then started to go of on a tangent about saying same groups attacking in Pak.(attempt at a personal attack because the user think i am this nationality , i believe this because of his history)
• Also saying that he is dyslexic and purposely writing incorrectly.But i interpreted this as a blatant attempt to commit another personal attack.(As i am dyslexic as a result this i un-subconsciously misplaced/missing sentence structure and words) I have told him that I am dyslexic before .As a result he uses it at a another chance to launch another personal attack .To prove this accusation just look at the links of his/her history.

• i have worked with other editors whether they be Jewish, Hindu Etc, on controversial pages and have reached consensus on many occasions .But this users has an agenda against me for his own personal reason. This is the 3rd of many personal attacks , Harassment and also a possible attempt of baiting respond to him/her .

Mughalnz (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

How would i proceed from here.

You ought to notify the user, placing this tag {{subst:WQA-notice}} on his talk page: since this noticeboard is only a means to provide a feedback on someone's behaviour — and not for issuing sanctions —, User:Wikireader41 needs to know that someone's complaining about his. Salvio ( ^{Let's talk 'bout it!}) 15:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, this edit might seem to be aimed at poking fun at you, because User:Wikireader41 appears to be able to write just fine elsewhere. But, for the moment, I prefer to stick to WP:AGF. Salvio ( ^{Let's talk 'bout it!}) 15:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

so how would i actually go about stopping the user behaving in this mannerMughalnz (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Image dispute

It appears that me and another editor GageSkidmore are having a dispute over the image for the Family Guy episode Brian & Stewie, File:Brian & Stewie - Family Guy promo.png. The image they uploaded is a simple screenshot, while the image I uploaded is the official promotional poster. It was my understanding that a official poster was preferred over a screen shot. So I've insisted that my upload be in the infobox. Yet they have insisted that their upload is preferred, so we have be reverting back and forth. But I don't see why their upload is so much better than mine. This maybe bad faith on my part, but they are coming off as they're reverting the file because they upload it. Just because you uploaded something doesn't make it any better. Their recent revert was over a image size compliance failure. Which I said if the image size is a problem, then resize it. Their revert response was a simple "no". So what should be done? Sarujo (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Why should an image that does not comply with the fair use rationale found on the image page be used? If you would like for the "promotional poster" to be used in place of the screenshot, you can reduce the size of the image. Gage (talk) 02:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

If the issue is photo size on the article then that can be easily changed by simply adding a specific pixel size to the file link. --A3RO (mailbox) 03:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It isn't. Gage (talk) 03:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)