Talk:Star Trek Into Darkness
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Important note
Please ensure you read all current discussions on this page before adding a new section. The previous contributors to this discussion have reached a compromise for the time being, and several wish to leave the conversation be for now. A summary of our arguments for and against capitalisation can be found here. Thank you for your cooperation. drewmunn (talk) 07:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Good grief -- read all sections?? Couldn't you be more specific and just state that it's the title that's the subject of mass edit warring? Read all sections, ohfergoodnesssakes -- I'll go read the Bible first, it's shorter. Jsharpminor (talk) 17:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your... valued contribution? The reason this notice is here is because people are going over ground we have covered in detail before. If you want to make a point, it's your responsibility to ensure it's not been made before. drewmunn talk 18:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Well, collapsible sections would be nice, per this QUINTIX (talk) 20:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I propose moving the title capitalization discussion to a separate talk subpage. Otherwise, if anyone had anything to say about the article contents, it would get completely lost in the noise in this page... 200.127.94.49 (talk) 23:23, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Requested move
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The result of the move request was: page not moved: no consensus after 29 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC) Star Trek into Darkness → Star Trek Into Darkness – Please see the discussion that has already taken place. I'm requesting the move now, as it's been decided by some that this process should be started. Please add your opinions below so we can gauge people's opinions, and hopefully quantify the results. To support this change, I put forward the official site, where the title is listed as "Star Trek Into Darkness" inside the HTML title element, and the official Paramount YouTube teaser, titled in the same format, as citations. drewmunn (talk) 15:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
No - the initial move request specifically addresses the capitalisation issue and consensus was found for that! There has been no clear consensus to capitalise "into" since. --Rob Sinden (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Comment I know it's not a vote. But it should be noted that currently it's 14 editors for the move, all citing multiple sources within Wikipedia (Including policies and guildlines, including the one being used by the opposition) and 11 against who all seem to be citing the same policy (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Composition titles). MisterShiney ✉ 01:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
--Tenebrae (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
No, no, just the opposite. Wiki style may be to render it as standard punctuation/grammar ("Star Trek into Darkness / Star Trek: Into Darkness"). But the title as the filmmakers render it is no standard punctuation/grammar (Star Trek Into Darkness). Anything that's not standard is stylized, by definition. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Post-closing discussionNot to reopen the discussion, but how on earth can with more editors supporting the move not be a consensus? I am aware that polling is not a substitute for discussion., but we have extensively discussed the topic at hand, with people even commenting that the argument for moving were sufficiently convincing (some editors even switched their views) so 1) Why wasn't an independent Admin involved in coming down on either side explaining their reasoning? and 2) What happened to "Consensus is determined not just by considering the preferences of the participants in a given discussion, but also by evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly? and did the closing admin really do that?" MisterShiney ✉ 09:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I am so going to laugh if it comes up when it gets reviewed for GA and we get told off that it isn't reflective of the real world usage etc etc. MisterShiney ✉ 14:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
What is the difference between polish and Polish? One shines, and the other is a people. What will be happening conversationally when people talk about this movie, will people talk about seeing "Into Darkness" or "Trek into Darkness" ? Are people talking about seeing the new "Star Trek" or the new "Star" movie? convesationally it is clear that this movie should be "Star Trek Into Darkness" where the stylistic change is the the lack of colon or comma after Trek.
Okay, so the argument for making it lowercase seems to center around WP rules. In that case, I ask why pages for titles like "Two Weeks Notice" have not been corrected? The WP would say that the example I just used should be written as "Two Weeks' Notice," but it was not. As a result, the page does not have an apostrophe, either. WP does not always apply to titles. If you want to see just how stupid making the i lowercase is, just do a Google search, and look at the results. On the first page, *only* the wiki page has it as lowercase. DeeJaye6 (talk) 15:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Summary of argumentsI’d just like to summarize the arguments for both sides, just to make sure everything’s clear.
Edit: This list has been replaced with the more complete (but still brief) page User:Frungi/Star Trek Into Darkness capitalization. I encourage all interested parties to read all the arguments and counterarguments for both sides there.
"Treating Star Trek into Darkness as part of a sentence would be original research" - actually, no. It is used as such by Paramount in the official synopsis of the movie. And it makes grammatical sense, just as "long walk into obscurity" or "lost in space" or countless other similar constructs. The "arguments" presented above aren't presented neutrally. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
To address the underlying capitalization rules involved in this discussion, everyone's input here would be welcome. – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 16:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC) I really should have mentioned this earlier, but I’ve deliberately left out the argument of “They used the words as part of a sentence in promotional materials” because I feel it’s irrelevant. This proves only that it’s possible to use the words as words, which was never in question, and only “Star Trek” was being used as a title there. —Frungi (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC) |
Is “Into Darkness” a subtitle?
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This is the big question of the debate that’s been going on here, and as requested and because it makes sense, I’m starting a new section on it separate from the move discussion. As with Star Trek Generations et al., does this movie’s title follow the “Star Trek [subtitle]” format? In almost all material I’ve seen, the title lacks any punctuation between “Star Trek” and “Into Darkness”, but that may simply be a stylistic choice and one not covered by our MOS. At least one editor insists that there is no subtitle if there is no colon, but I believe that’s his stylistic choice, and as I said the MOS says nothing on the subject. I say it’s open to interpretation, but my personal preference would be to treat it as a subtitle and start the article with, possibly, “Star Trek: Into Darkness (stylized as Star Trek Into Darkness) ….” Thoughts? —Frungi (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I absolutely reject this notion that the title needs to be "corrected". If, in the future, a consensus forms around reclassifying "into darkness" as a distinct subtitle, then the "into" will need to be presented with a capital "I". But if that consensus doesn't form, it will stay as it is unless some change in MOS:CT occurs (and that is something under discussion). In the meantime, all that derogatory bullshit about "basic english grammer [sic]" and 9-year-olds needs to stop right the fuck now, okay? -- Scjessey (talk) 00:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I do agree with Rob that the title needs to be taken at face value. So, seriously, it's good to have common ground. I think we have differences on what that means, but it's a good place to start. For the record, as someone in publishing and journalism, if I write, "The Dog jumped over the Couch," the words "dog" and couch" are indeed misspelled. Errant capitalization is a misspelling. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:24, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
There is a traditional legal doctrine of statutory construction which states that the specific governs the general. See, e.g., Crawford Fitting Co. v. J. T. Gibbons, Inc., 482 U.S. 437, 445 (1987). Here, the wiki guideline MOS:CT would be "general" while "the official source and every major mainstream publication, from Time to The New York Times, spells it 'Star Trek Into Darkness'" cited by Tenebrae would be "specific." Thus, the word "into" in the title Star Trek Into Darkness should be capitalized to conform with the cited sources. Jjuo (talk) 05:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears that a majority of editors believe the "Into" should be capitalized (based on a variety of different reasons including external sources), and a minority believe that "into" should remain in lowercase based on a wiki guideline, which prevents consensus (and, based on a prior comment from an editor in the minority that either the guideline must be changed or the producers add a semicolon to the title before he would change his position, consensus probably will never be achieved absent the occurrence of these unlikely events). If the dispute was based on two opposing external sources, I would agree that defaulting to the wiki guideline would be appropriate. However, that is not what is happening. Instead, a minority of editors are tightly sticking to rules and procedures against what a majority of editors believe to be correct. Because this is a consensus-based enterprise, the majority cannot overrule the minority—but this creates a filibuster situation. Is the minority willing to accept that a well-reasoned majority view is a sufficient basis to justify an exception to a wiki guideline? I suggest this would be consistent with the fifth pillar of Wikipedia. " Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule." Jjuo (talk) 20:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I haven't participated in this discussion much, mostly because I have a track record when it comes to disputes over the capitalisation of individual letters and don't wish to add to it, but I will quickly lay out my feelings on it. First, I think it's clear that there is no consensus as to whether "Into Darkness" is a subtitle or not, nor is it likely that there will be consensus anytime soon. Second, there is not (I hope) any dispute about whether or not the word "into" is a preposition in this context. The word is always a preposition, and any reputable dictionary will tell you so. The dispute is, the finer points of English grammar aside, whether "Into" should be capitalised. If it were indisputably a subtitle, punctuated or un-, the case would be clear, and we would capitalise it, for the simple reason that not capitalising the initial word of a subtitle would be unprecedented and, therefore, original research. The inverse is not necessarily true -- even if it were definitively proven to be not a subtitle, but a verbal phrase or some other construct, consensus would still be able to override the common and MoS-sanctioned practice of not capitalising prepositions. MoS is not policy, and the issue of title case is a stylistic, and not a grammatical issue. While grammar cannot be subjected to popular vote, style can. My view is that "Into Darkness" should be capitalised to avoid ambiguity. I also think it's a subtitle, but that's unrelated to my preference for capitalisation. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 10:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Really? No one wants to discuss a compromise solution that would retain the lowercase i in the title and throughout, while acknowledging in the lead the uppercase I? It's consistent with "Seven (sometimes stylized as Se7en)" at Seven (film) and "Die Hard 2 (sometimes referred to as Die Hard 2: Die Harder)" at Die Hard 2. We can't just bury our heads in the sand the pretend the uppercase-I spelling doesn't exist. When editors can't reach consensus, we're supposed to compromise. This suggestion should give both sides what each feels is necessary while including each's opposite side. What do you say? --Tenebrae (talk) 22:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC) Convenience break(Excuse the... er... subtitle. It's irritating trying to add comments to an enormous section.) Earlier, Frungi said: "Granted, but the same argument applies to the question of whether “Into Darkness” is an unpunctuated subtitle. You feel it isn’t, so therefore we should all treat it like it isn’t, even though some of us feel that there is more evidence that it is."
Comment: The current focus on the MOS may be misplaced. There appear to be several interpretations (or grammatical constructions/deconstructions) of the title "STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS". (1) The word "INTO" is a preposition. (2) The phrase "INTO DARKNESS" is a subtitle (or a separable title). (3) "TREK INTO" is a phrasal verb. Under interpretation #1, "into" should not be capitalized under the MOS (unless an exception is made). Under interpretation #2, "Into" should be capitalized under the MOS (although some may argue that this is instead an accepted exception to the MOS). Under interpretation #3, "Into" should be capitalized under the MOS (and I note that it appears well-accepted that "run into" is a phrasal verb, so it is possible for the word "into" to be part of a phrasal verb). Because the MOS will lead to different capitalizations depending on how one interprets the phrase "star trek into darkness," the reliance by some on the MOS is misplaced. If "INTO" is merely a preposition, then the question becomes whether the word "into" is sufficiently important to the title that an exception should be made to the MOS to capitalize it in this particular instance. But if "INTO DARKNESS" is a subtitle, then there appears to be no dispute that "into" should be capitalized (see, e.g., Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan). But is this grammatical interpretation "original research" or POV that is inappropriate for determining the content of a Wikipedia article? If so, and given that each side has invested so much mental energy into their respective positions, we are going down a rabbit hole where consensus on the proper interpretation may not be possible. Instead of focusing on whether one side should "win" its interpretative argument, we should focus on finding a way to resolve the impasse because the process seems broken at this point (and becoming more like the Monty Python argument sketch). Perhaps the framework should be changed to determining whether people can agree on a sufficiently authoritative external source to resolve this matter without having to definitively resolve the grammatical interpretation of the title (the ambiguity of which may have been intentional), or to find some other compromise. Any other suggestions? Jjuo (talk) 21:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Comment: It doesn't matter. "Every word is given an initial capital except for certain less important words (as defined below)." The real question is, "is 'into' important?" Into isn't an everyday preposition, and although it is only four letters long, it needs to be capitalized. 1) It is a compound preposition (it is more common in other languages to join the words, but not unheard of in English.) The MOS says compound prepositions are capitalized. If the title were 'Star Trek In to Darkness' the In would be capitalized per the rules. The fact that the space is removed does not change the rule. 2) It is a directional spatial adpositions which can only combine with verbs that involve motion. Thus for the sentence to make any sense, Trek MUST be a verb. Simon Pegg said it as a verb. The official marketing team uses it as a verb in sentences. To say it is not a verb is original research. 3) Paramount is using it as a phrasal verb. If it is a sentence the Catenae must be (Star ((Trek Into) Darkness)). Star becomes a modifier of the phrase Trek Into Darkness, similar to if I said Futuristic Trek Into Darkness. We can treat the word Star as a synonym for 'in Space." In short. If it is a subtitle it should be capitalized. If it is a sentence it should be capitalized because a) it is a compound preposition but more specifically a directional spatial adpositions, b) it is a particle of a phrasal verb and c) directional spatial adpositions can only combine with verbs that involve motion. In conclusion: the word Into is important. That is why it is capitalized in every place but here. It should be capitalized because the MOS explicitly carves out 3 exceptions (importance, particle+phrasal, compound.) To not capitalize it is to ignore the MOS.10:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC) — Xkcdreader (talk • contribs) Comment: I've only seen what was on xkcd and glanced through most of this article, but it seems to me a lot of this discussion - whether it's a subtitle, whether into should be treated normally as a preposition, etc. - is irrelevant. The title on the official movie website[2] states "Star Trek Into Darkness" - Capital I - and is an official source, as does the movie's page on the general Star Trek site[3]. The Facebook[4]/Twitter[5] streams also (except where erroneously entered as "Star Trek: Into Darkness" which was confirmed by Abrams as incorrect, so that other move discussion with the colon is also irrelevant) display "Star Trek Into Darkness" as well as almost every other article and news story I've seen on the film. IMDB[6], Apple Trailers[7], and the "Memory Alpha" Star Trek wiki[8] all use "Star Trek Into Darkness" as well. Wikipedia is the only source I've seen that has it as "Star Trek into Darkness" so it seems pretty odd to me that it should stay that way. ZephyronALPHA (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC) |
Actually...
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I hadn't noticed, and no one responded to my post about compromise language, but it seems as if another editor quite rightly added a (thankfully) streamlined version of the compromise I suggested. Both sides are represented, and we're accurate in terms of the real world. So ... we're actually done, right? --Tenebrae (talk) 00:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
MisterShiney: It’s more that our word is law on how we use the English language. Personally, I believe we should deviate from that as a common-sense exception if the whole of society deviates from it, as is the case here, but that sense does not appear to be common, so what can we do. Drew: I’d be willing to bet that a majority of searches would come through “star trek into darkness” because people are lazy with the shift key. —Frungi (talk) 03:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
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In summary
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In the hopes of helping myself—and others—better understand the “Into”/“into” debate from both sides, and ending the cycle of the same arguments and counterarguments once and for all even if the debate continues, I’ve put together a page summarizing it all. I hope I covered everything, but if not, please either let me know or add it yourself. I ask that before anyone on either side posts anything more on the subject here, you visit that page and read through the arguments and counterarguments from both sides with an open mind, and do your best to understand the stance you disagree with; or at least simply make sure that you’re bringing something new, rather than rehashing an old argument. Here’s the page: User:Frungi/Star Trek Into Darkness capitalization. —Frungi (talk) 02:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Love it. Especially the "Let me repeat it. Again" line. Fun Fact: Since the first archived debate of this topic, we've written enough dialog on the subject to produce a movie, at least an hour long, just about the letter "i". drewmunn (talk) 11:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
The movie would have to be called "I" not "i", no question about it. Electiontechnology (talk) 12:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
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"Compromise"
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The proposed "compromise" of having "(styled as Star Trek Into Darkness)" is no good. First of all, it was only a proposal and not something we agreed to. Secondly, it is usually styled as two separate chunks with different sizes, etc. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Scjessey here. It's incorrect. It's not stylised. If we are going to comment on the Style it would be "Stylised as STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS" what with it all being in capitals in all the released materials. We are just commenting on the grammar. MisterShiney ✉ 07:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
This is a stupid discussion. It can be one or the other, but not both. The title is "Star Trek Into Darkness", but Wikipedia writes it as "Star Trek into Darkness". It is Wikipedia that is styling the title, so the so-called compromise is wrong. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
It is now fine the way it is. If this conversation continues within the next 3 months, I will personally trout that user! MisterShiney ✉ 17:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I came here after seeing the XKCD comic and haven't previously been involved in this discussion and, moreover, haven't been active on Wikipedia for years; perhaps that makes me something of a third-party viewpoint. My impression of the opening sentence (with this compromise) is that it comes across as sounding as if Wikipedia thinks itself the authority on how things should be named, and everybody else is wrong. I'm frankly astonished at this whole debate. Since official sources and most/all third-party sources all cite the title as "Star Trek Into Darkness", I think it's simple common sense that this is the title Wikipedia should use. If the various Wikipedia policies that I see people citing say otherwise, then those policies are frankly broken. With the article's title and opening sentence as they currently stand, I feel they make Wikipedia look foolish and arrogant. – Zawersh 16:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
still not as funny discussion as in case of Talk:Human_anus#Endless_image_contention 89.78.246.146 (talk) 23:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC) |
xkcd Mention
Just to make everyone aware, and for the sake of self-referential humor, there is now an xkcd comic poking fun at the whole discussion above and this talk page in general: http://xkcd.com/1167/ I move to debate the implications of this comic on the outcome [citation needed] of the page. :) 24.196.27.208 (talk) 05:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think you mean that it got an "Xkcd Mention". --70.64.172.216 (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear heaven. What hath God wrought? 24.196.27.208 (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is truly amazing, but what I would really like to see is for someone to get some actors together to do a dramatic reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.219.5 (talk) 05:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Good stuff guys! I wonder if any of the people in the debate truly understand how little anyone outside of their little discussion group gives a damn about the outcome?...or will ever notice which way it's done? If only this collossal amount of energy could somehow be diverted into something useful...like maybe collecting all of human knowledge and publishing it for the world to read? Oh well...it could be worse - check out the years of wrangling over "Sega Genesis" versus "Sega Mega Drive". SteveBaker (talk) 05:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- The "Canada" vs "Dominion of Canada" was a pretty awful one too.96.49.132.52 (talk) 06:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to make the page semi-protected to deal with the huge influx of traffic that's sure to result from the xkcd mention. WiiWillieWiki 05:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Getting in before semi-protection kicks in — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.104.54.79 (talk) 13:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Good stuff guys! I wonder if any of the people in the debate truly understand how little anyone outside of their little discussion group gives a damn about the outcome?...or will ever notice which way it's done? If only this collossal amount of energy could somehow be diverted into something useful...like maybe collecting all of human knowledge and publishing it for the world to read? Oh well...it could be worse - check out the years of wrangling over "Sega Genesis" versus "Sega Mega Drive". SteveBaker (talk) 05:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is truly amazing, but what I would really like to see is for someone to get some actors together to do a dramatic reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.219.5 (talk) 05:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Just to avoid confusion, from the xkcd FAQ: "The preferred form is "xkcd", all lower-case. In formal contexts where a lowercase word shouldn't start a sentence, "XKCD" is an okay alternative. "Xkcd" is frowned upon." ;) EvilHom3r (talk) 06:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is an example of [synthesis]. It has never been clearly stated that these guidelines are applicable when followed by the word 'mention'. If we are to create a separate article for this mention it should follow Wikipedia's own guidelines, meaning the title of the page should clearly be "Xkcd Mention". 71.56.208.126 (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I, for one, think it should be ~*~XkCd MeNtI0n~*~. Mtijn (talk) 22:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is an example of [synthesis]. It has never been clearly stated that these guidelines are applicable when followed by the word 'mention'. If we are to create a separate article for this mention it should follow Wikipedia's own guidelines, meaning the title of the page should clearly be "Xkcd Mention". 71.56.208.126 (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear heaven. What hath God wrought? 24.196.27.208 (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- In light of the comic, perhaps the perfect compromise is to move the talk page to Star Trek into Blinding Light.98.116.119.53 (talk) 06:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- That won't do at all. If we move it, it should be moved to Star Trek lnto Blinding Light.76.102.193.27 (talk) 06:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I have no personal opinion on the move itself, but can see the humor in the situation. If it is allowable, I will produce a dramatic adaptation of this article. Hopefully within a reasonable amount of time, I can get a line-through done will actors IRL. This is a big moment in Wikipedia history. It needs to live on.Mordvark (talk) 06:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It was also xkcd that made me aware of this discussion. And it shouldn't be "Xkcd" as said above, as the website clearly states "xkcd" all lower case. The title of something is what the creator titles it. The movie title is what the movie creators named it, which is clearly Star Trek Into Darkness. The rules for grammar simply do not apply in this situation. They are simply the suggested, standardized way to do things. It could be StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs if that is what the creators wanted to name it. Dragonfiremalus (talk) 06:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I swear though, I had to stop myself from capitalizing the "x" in the section title. I got the same feeling of discomfort beginning the a title with a lowercase letter that I'm sure everybody got when they saw a single preposition lower-cased in an otherwise all-uppercase title. I guess that means I'm in the "Support" camp. 24.196.27.208 (talk) 07:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Let's see if we can a 40,000 word discussion (read: argument) going over whether it should be xkcd, XKCD, or Xkcd. Dwees (talk) 06:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It was also xkcd that made me aware of this discussion. And it shouldn't be "Xkcd" as said above, as the website clearly states "xkcd" all lower case. The title of something is what the creator titles it. The movie title is what the movie creators named it, which is clearly Star Trek Into Darkness. The rules for grammar simply do not apply in this situation. They are simply the suggested, standardized way to do things. It could be StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs if that is what the creators wanted to name it. Dragonfiremalus (talk) 06:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- In case anyone comes from xkcd and wants to contribute, please first see this summary to quickly see what’s been discussed already. Thank you. —Frungi (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If xkcd can be all lowercase on Wikipedia, why can't "Into" be capitalized? 2605:6000:6481:2300:6D6B:460:ACFC:C25D (talk) 06:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See the arguments against it here. —Frungi (talk) 06:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've read those. I'm just saying that if we are accepting the styling of xkcd's creator, why can't we accept the styling of the movie's creators. 2605:6000:6481:2300:6D6B:460:ACFC:C25D (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear heaven. You do realize now that they are just going to rename the page to "Xkcd," right? (http://xkcd.com/651/) -24.196.27.208 (talk) 07:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm surpised no one has noted yet that xkcd has the title as "Star Trek into Darkness" (108.214.97.159 talk) 09:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And there’s our reliable source. Darn. —Frungi (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm surpised no one has noted yet that xkcd has the title as "Star Trek into Darkness" (108.214.97.159 talk) 09:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear heaven. You do realize now that they are just going to rename the page to "Xkcd," right? (http://xkcd.com/651/) -24.196.27.208 (talk) 07:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've read those. I'm just saying that if we are accepting the styling of xkcd's creator, why can't we accept the styling of the movie's creators. 2605:6000:6481:2300:6D6B:460:ACFC:C25D (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See the arguments against it here. —Frungi (talk) 06:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Firstly, it's great to see other people reading xkcd. Secondly, it's great the article's been protected for now. Thirdly, let's all hunker down for the onslaught of vandals that will surely appear. Finally, I'd like to propose Frungi's summary page is linked to at the top of this talk page to help streamline unnecessary extra debate. Frungi, it may be worth you edit protecting your page for now (if you haven't already). drewmunn (talk) 07:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Heh, I honestly doubt that vandals coming here would pay any attention to it. But I will if necessary, and thanks for the suggestion. And I’m obviously somewhat biased, but I support linking it. —Frungi (talk) 07:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If ever a talk page deserved to be vandalised, it is this one. Good grief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.164.22.138 (talk) 14:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
We all know Randall does this just to screw us over... Accelerometer T / C 07:21, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Any of you fine folks hear of this l'il thing called editor retention? Some mighty smart people, they're saying it's important or some such.
Maybe they's even right about that. So let's say that they are...
Instead of semi-protecting and vandalhunting everyone who comes by here with a shotgun... how about actually giving them a welcome message, telling 'em howdy, and ask 'em to help with some of the more important work goin' on. There'd be some mighty big smiles all round if all y'all could pull that off! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 07:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC) On the other hand, if the xkcd comic is accurate, why am I trying to get people to exhibit any kind of sane behaviour here? ;-)
- We're looking after the current article setup that's been agreed by consensus (or lack of) for the time being. We don't want to seem unwelcoming, but it's a sad fact that it was protected because vandalism of the subject had already begun. Hopefully things will ease off in the near future, and we'll have gained some useful and productive support from users who can bring a breath of fresh air to the page. drewmunn (talk) 07:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, just to be sure I've got this right... I just said "this behaviour is net. harmful to wikipedia" , your reply (in short) is "this is the procedure, we're doing it this way anyway". And then you say "hopefully things will ease off later and we'll have gained some productive support"... from people who you'd just said should be blocked.
- I'm just checking here. Did I miss anything? ;-)
- --Kim Bruning (talk) 07:59, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Oh wait, "we're looking at the current article setup that's been agreed by consensus" -> um WP:CCC wants a word with you.
- Sounds like fun! We could divert all the users that are going to come to actually improve the xkcd or the Star Trek articles, than join in here. On another note, I'm leaving Randal a note to look into the Burma/Myanmar controversy whenever he can. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- That's the spirit! If it isn't fun, why else would we be wasting our time here? ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Just to inform everyone, I have taken the matter to Jimbo Almighty here. With luck, he might be able to dictate a solution to decide consensus on such matters. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- <old_geezer>I keep telling people that the point of CONsensus is to try to CONverge on a solution. Old fashioned, they call me. Too idealistic. HA... Get off my lawn!</old_geezer> :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Just to inform everyone, I have taken the matter to Jimbo Almighty here. With luck, he might be able to dictate a solution to decide consensus on such matters. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- That's the spirit! If it isn't fun, why else would we be wasting our time here? ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
This talk page is really a mess. Maybe you guys should use your energy to cure cancer or something. DoguCarrington (talk) 08:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I was sort of on that career path, twice. Wikipedia distracted me both times. (If you don't believe me, try to explain some of the odd entries in my block log O:-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And I am now tempted to read this stuff instead of doing my studies. I hope no one of you ever tries to learn German. Capitalization is slighty more complicated and people might get killed. DoguCarrington (talk) 08:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- While not continuing research on solar cells, I'd like to take the time to point you to another discussion: H0 scale should be with the number 0, instead of the letter O. (http://xkcd.com/878/) 131.174.139.183 (talk) 09:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Dogu, well, I don't think we would have such a debate in German... not about capitalization, at least. I have seen german wiki debates that reached a level of sophistication like this one, though. :D --Enyavar (talk) 05:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- While not continuing research on solar cells, I'd like to take the time to point you to another discussion: H0 scale should be with the number 0, instead of the letter O. (http://xkcd.com/878/) 131.174.139.183 (talk) 09:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And I am now tempted to read this stuff instead of doing my studies. I hope no one of you ever tries to learn German. Capitalization is slighty more complicated and people might get killed. DoguCarrington (talk) 08:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
This comic should be mentioned in the article. It meets the criteria of at least 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture as the subject (this talk page) has acknowledged the comic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xkcdreader (talk • contribs)
- Agreed Colt .55 (talk) 11:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not to say it shouldn't be mentioned in there, but the article is not about its talk page. —Frungi (talk) 11:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- No. The comic is a reference to Wikipedia, not to the film. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think it should be mentioned in the article. As of yet, the article has been completely shielded from this debate, with only a hidden comment and a usually written as statement betraying the uproar back here. Unless other media outlets get hold of this, and a naming controversy grows from it, it's not notable to the article content. The subject (the talk page) has acknowledged the existence of the xkcd reference, and it's noted here. However, Randall is not discussing the article, nor have his actions had any effect on the film. drewmunn talk 11:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what it has to do with the film itself. If it's not really about the film, then it shouldn't be in the article. DillonLarson (talk) 12:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. This is only relevant to the article if you actually adopt the naming convention "StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs". Electiontechnology (talk) 12:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And Randall unfairly characterizes this as an "edit war". What's up with that? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's his comic, he can do what he wants. If you like you can contribute to the strip's talk page. NE Ent 13:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And Randall unfairly characterizes this as an "edit war". What's up with that? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. This is only relevant to the article if you actually adopt the naming convention "StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs". Electiontechnology (talk) 12:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be mentioned in the article, but there is room for an "In Pop Culture" section on this talk page... Marsman57 (talk) 14:13, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- ???? This is a talk page! --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's already mentioned on this talk page in the header section. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- ???? This is a talk page! --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Imagine a world where all the effort that went into this talk were redistributed elsewhere. Society would advance so quickly. 90.245.2.198 (talk) 15:21, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think so. Talking is far easier than anything productive. Locoluis (talk) 16:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I think this talk page needs a wikipedia article about this talk page. With an "in popular culture" section 99.226.191.43 (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- There's already an article for "notable" Wikipedia articles. See WP:LAME#Star Trek into Darkness :P 62.44.228.229 (talk) 09:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Guys. Not counting my comment, this section alone contains 1890 words about a comic about how many words there are in a debate about the capitalisation versus the non-capitalisation of the letter "i". I'm not sure if that's meta or just ridiculous. :P -- Chris (talk) 22:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, not meta, just simple ridiculous. BTW, not interested in reading 100k of silliness- has anyone simply phoned up Paramount to ask if the "into" is capitalized? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- That would be original research...HJED (talk) 10:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Wow, you nerds are at it again. You all have digressed back into exactly what Randall Munroe was making fun of in the first place. Congratulations on failing this hard. 65.129.52.158 (talk) 20:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not bad: [10] :D --Gidoca (talk) 12:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Alternative Compromise
~*~sTaR tReK iNtO dArKnEsS~*~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.61.157.76 (talk) 06:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree: Actually I much prefer ~*~StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs~*~ over ~*~sTaR tReK iNtO dArKnEsS~*~. Capitalizing the first letter of the title is much more consistent with the style guide.
- Happily, that ends up with each word being capitalized. —Frungi (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Strongly Disagree That just looks stupid, and far too unprofessional in tone for Wikipedia. Obviously, we should be using xX_StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs_Xx instead. Xmoogle (talk) 08:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Strongly Disagree I think you made a typo. The double S should not be like Ss, it is not aesthetic. How about xX_StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNess_Xx, as suggested originally ? 86.74.150.160 (talk) 09:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Vehemently Disagree By that logic, we should go with xX_StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSS_Xx. 75.118.51.238 (talk) 18:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Strongly Disagree I think you made a typo. The double S should not be like Ss, it is not aesthetic. How about xX_StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNess_Xx, as suggested originally ? 86.74.150.160 (talk) 09:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Extreme Disagree You're not capturing the very nature of a title with a year, we should be using xX_StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs_Xx 13.
- SuperMegaUltral337Keter Disagree You're all idiots, and we should go with ~*~ xX_5+4r +r3K /n+0 D4rKn355_Xx ~*~. Xmoogle (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree: How about only capitilising the "i", so that we have ~*~star trek Into darkness~*~. I'm also not wild about spaces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.43 (talk) 04:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree I think we should go with STARTREKINTODARKNESS. It will really make everyone happy.
Requested move 2
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
{{Requested move/dated|Star Trek: Into Darkness}} Star Trek into Darkness → Star Trek: Into Darkness – Facts:
DillonLarson (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I warned you all. I am a man of my convictions.... MisterShiney ✉ 07:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
You've been squished by a whale! To you all!!! Why does it matter???? Leave it be!!! MisterShiney ✉ 16:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
1st Requested Move Should Already be Achived
Last move request should have been archived on the 29th. All posts in the second move request saying 'we should postpone til archived' are invaild. - Aalox (Say Hello • My Work) 18:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
|
Speedy closed as not-moved (I can't remember the right template; if you know what it is, please use it). This discussion is getting lots of coverage on outside websites, and per people's concerns in the "Star Trek into Darkness" section of the current version of WP:AN, it needs to be speedy closed. Do not treat this as an endorsement of either side, and feel free to reopen it before long; please don't think of this as an attempt to stifle or put off discussion. Nyttend (talk) 19:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll just leave this here…
Wikipedia talk:Lamest edit wars#Star Trek (I|i)nto Darkness —Jesse B. Hannah (talk) 08:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And this too http://xkcd.com/1167/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.43.169.79 (talk) 08:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- *nod*, see under #xkcd_Mention We might be able to ask for a CC-BY-SA license for that comic :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's already CC-BY-NC, so I don't know whether he'd change it just for us! drewmunn (talk) 08:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- He can and has done so for other comics in the past. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't know that. I wonder if he has an account so we can trout him. I wonder if he's been part of this conversation. He could have infiltrated our ranks! Trust nobody! Suspect everybody! drewmunn (talk) 08:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Especially not User:Xkcd! ;) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Incidentally seems to be only mildly active. Might be wise to use wikipedia email
- Now, don't be logical. I've been driven slightly mad by the past months of debate, and it totally slipped my mind that his account could be called xkcd. Now, back to more pressing matters; I have an episode of Utopia to watch. That'll make me more sane. drewmunn (talk) 09:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC) you know too much about xkcd. My logically conspiratorial mind has decided you must be a sock puppet of Randall himself! Mwhahahahaha!
- Shouldn’t that be User:xkcd? Just sayin’… —Frungi (talk) 09:06, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah. "The preferred form is "xkcd", all lower-case. In formal contexts where a lowercase word shouldn't start a sentence, "XKCD" is an okay alternative. "Xkcd" is frowned upon. "" [9]98.247.64.244 (talk) 20:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Shouldn’t that be User:xkcd? Just sayin’… —Frungi (talk) 09:06, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Now, don't be logical. I've been driven slightly mad by the past months of debate, and it totally slipped my mind that his account could be called xkcd. Now, back to more pressing matters; I have an episode of Utopia to watch. That'll make me more sane. drewmunn (talk) 09:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC) you know too much about xkcd. My logically conspiratorial mind has decided you must be a sock puppet of Randall himself! Mwhahahahaha!
- Especially not User:Xkcd! ;) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Incidentally seems to be only mildly active. Might be wise to use wikipedia email
- I didn't know that. I wonder if he has an account so we can trout him. I wonder if he's been part of this conversation. He could have infiltrated our ranks! Trust nobody! Suspect everybody! drewmunn (talk) 08:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- He can and has done so for other comics in the past. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's already CC-BY-NC, so I don't know whether he'd change it just for us! drewmunn (talk) 08:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- *nod*, see under #xkcd_Mention We might be able to ask for a CC-BY-SA license for that comic :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Skydance Productions
http://skydance.com/movie/9/Star-Trek-Into-Darkness.html
One of the official production companies that worked on the film lists it on their site with title-case. A quick search showed that this information was not presented in the past arguments, so here it is.
To quote: "In Summer 2013, pioneering director J.J. Abrams will deliver an explosive action thriller that takes Star Trek Into Darkness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.192.161 (talk) 11:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- That is taken from the official synopsis, which has been discussed in detail above. drewmunn talk 11:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- The title case in other sources is irrelevant, as they may be following their house style, and we follow ours. However, it does show "into" as a preposition, which is one of the argumenents considered (at length) above. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Except it's capitalized everywhere, regardless of house style. And I maintain the synopsis grammar is irrelevant; it uses "Star Trek" as a franchise title and "into darkness" as words, and it falls to the same argument that discounts official sources' use of the capital I. —Frungi (talk) 11:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Drive by comment. Article in UK newspaper The Independent includes this: "With just weeks to live, the film buff, who is from New York, wanted nothing more than to see Abrams’ hotly anticipated Star Trek sequel Into Darkness, which is not due out in the US until mid-May." To my simple mind, this looks like a great source to support the "subtitle theory".141.0.46.202 (talk) 12:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Except that the author of that article also refers to the film as "Star Trek Into Darkness" and wrongly refers to "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" as "The Hobbit". Credibility fail. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If I were to write 'Star Trek', I'd be talking about an entirely different movie. I feel 'The Hobbit' doesn't require that clarification, since there's just one 'The Hobbit' so far. Doesn't imply anything about his credibility. Shashwat986 → talk 13:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Except that the author of that article also refers to the film as "Star Trek Into Darkness" and wrongly refers to "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" as "The Hobbit". Credibility fail. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- The title case in other sources is irrelevant, as they may be following their house style, and we follow ours. However, it does show "into" as a preposition, which is one of the argumenents considered (at length) above. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose A good encyclopedia should always reflect the facts as best as possible. The facts in this case is that there is no colon in the title. A check of Paramount's official website bears this out. Paramount owns that copyright for Star Trek and they can title their movie what they want. Who are we to change the title of a property owned by someone else? While style guidelines are needed for when there is a question or uncertainty, in this case there is none. Rather the goal should be to reflect the facts and reality as best as possible and not to enforce some arbitray style guidelines. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- What other people use to term the film is of no consequence to us; we're an encyclopaedia, and don't base our layout simply on one or two journalists. The conversations above cover the large amount of effort that we've gone to trying to prove/disprove the subtitle styling, and no consensus has been reached. We've spent a long time trying to get this right, and no new evidence has come to light that proves either way since our compromise. The titular article of this section has been discussed in detail previously, and similar situations as the the second example quoted here have also been debated. If you haven't already, I ask you to read through the preserved move request, the post-closing discussion, and Frungi's summary. You may also find the archived debates of interest; there are 3 archives, with the majority of their content discussing this matter. Once reading through all of that material, you'll probably see why there are those of us who'd prefer it if you'd leave this for a month or so before bringing it up again. drewmunn talk 15:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If it's not a subtitle to the main title, then why, at the end of the trailers, is "INTO DARKNESS" displayed first, in large text, and then "STAR TREK" fades into view above it, in smaller text? That seems to strongly indicate that it's a subtitle, not one large continuous title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.188.33.26 (talk) 15:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See above, I am not getting back into this. We've gone over all of this before, and it's considered WP:OR to cite that as an indications of a subtitle. drewmunn talk 17:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not getting back Into this. §A — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottauld (talk • contribs) 14:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- See above, I am not getting back into this. We've gone over all of this before, and it's considered WP:OR to cite that as an indications of a subtitle. drewmunn talk 17:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
bringing to your attention another discussion concerning the matter of capitalizing certain prepositions in titles
(I know it has been brought up before, but since the sudden influx of posts is certain to drown out that information hidden in a wall of text, I'm hereby taking the liberty of creating a new section to re-post the notification.)
For a broader discussion of capitalization that also involves into / Into and whose outcome will affect the styling of this title as well, please see this. – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 16:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh no! What have you done? --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- You mean I opened a door I shouldn't have opened? I don't think too many people who are not interested in this issue on a more fundamental level are ready to read through the huge discussion at WT:MoS. But then again, I might be wrong. – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh my word! My head is going to explode!!!!! MisterShiney ✉ 16:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I propose we change the title to StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs.
Congratulations, fellow editors
It would appear that ripples over the incredibly pathetic and protracted conflict about capitalizing a single preposition has led elsewhere, mocking your ridonkulous behavior. Perhaps it is time to sort of cogently shut up for a bit and wait the actual film to come out? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I have to assume you haven't read the content of this talk page to have missed the discussion already taking place (and has been for nearly a day) about this very subject. Also, would you mind turning down your insults? We're working to resolve an issue, and we reached a compromise within the last few days. The xkcd comic has flared up an issue that we were letting lay; the majority of editors who were contributing to the debate prior to today decided to leave it for a good month or more, and that was going well until the deluge of new opinions from xkcd readers. We all try to remain civil, and respect each other's opinions on Wikipedia, so it'd be appreciated if you didn't insult the hard work we have put into making this article more effective. drewmunn talk 17:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The XKCD posting is already discussed above (in collapsed sections). It has exacerbated the issue, which had actually cooled down beforehand to await new evidence before reviewing. The editor who started a new RM had not edited since last November. I've made a request at WP:AN to speedy close the RM discussion. Perhaps the XKCD posting will lead to outside commentary that can conclude this issue. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Taken from startrekmovie.com --- "The anticipated Star Trek movie sequel: Star Trek Into Darkness. Watch the new Star Trek videos here! In theaters May 17, 2013." (Scroll to the very bottom in fine print. If you copy and paste it, you get 'I' not 'i').
Yes because that is an equally mature response from an editor who has had no contribution (that I can see) to this discussion and who is quite frankly here to disrupt and antagonise the process. I would ask that you re read Wikipedia Policies and guidelineseither make a constructive input or henceforth depart and try not to let the door hit you on the way out. MisterShiney ✉ 20:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not. helping. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Of course people have missed the discussion already taken place. After all, the sections are collapsed. Might I suggest that collapsing discussions-in-progress is probably a bad idea?
That said, this is a famous repeating pattern.
- If this section were to become collapsed... no one sees it.
- So the next person to come by creates a new one...
- ... which becomes collapsed so no one sees it...
- ...so a new section is created... which is collapsed...
- ...so no one sees it. so .... etc etc.
If we have a lot of bad luck there will also be some random deletions/reversions of comments, at which point people are forced to meatball:ExpandScope, and things snowball, and you'll start learning of the great wiki-edit war of 2013 in the press. ;-)
--Kim Bruning (talk) 22:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC) So Don't Do That(tm). Don't collapse, don't delete, and don't be snarky at newcomers
Matching article content with current title
If we aren't currently treating "Into Darkness" as a subtitle, we shouldn't call it it that in the article.
Current text in the article: "J. J. Abrams has stated that unlike the original series' Trek films, this film will have a subtitle with no number following the series title Star Trek, like The Next Generation's film series."
I propose we remove this section for now; it only generates confusion. (Yes, I found this from xkcd) Robert computer engineer (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- We're listing encyclopaedic content, which the section above quoted is. Just because he stated it, doesn't mean it's true; Abrams said that a long time ago, and things could have changed. However, we document that he said it in the first place. drewmunn talk 17:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Just because he stated it at one point, doesn't mean we should include it in the article. Especially if we don't think it's true anymore. I don't see any added value in keeping that sentence there, and it makes Wikipedia internally inconstant. Since the current consensus is to leave it as not a subtitle, we shouldn't be implying that it is a subtitle in the article Robert computer engineer (talk) 17:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I believe the reason it's still there is that we're not sure whether or not we can say "it's definitely not/is a subtitle", so it's there for people to draw their own opinions from. drewmunn talk 18:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Shouldn't that type of discussion be here on the talk page? An Encyclopedia shouldn't be a "We report, you decide" thing that gives conflicting information in the main article. If anyone is interested in the controversy they can come to the talk page. When we revisit this page a month from now if we decide it is a subtitle we can put that back up, and if we decide it isn't, we can leave it removed. Robert computer engineer (talk) 18:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's just another NPOV issue: we do need to report and let readers decide. Obviously we have to pick one of them for the article title, but if both ": Into" and "into" are getting used in relevant sources, it might be helpful to include a short section on the name of the film. Regardless of that, the text should generally use the same capitalisation/punctuation as the article title. Nyttend (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Nyttend, I get the feeling that you aren't really talking about what I'm talking about here. I'm not complaining about the current compromise situation with the title. We think it's unclear whether or not it's a subtitle, so since there's no consensus, we aren't changing it, but we mention both capitalizations. I don't think ": Into" or "into" are being used in any relevant sources, I believe it's all "Into", but that has nothing to do with what we're discussing in this section. Robert computer engineer (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- You're right; I misunderstood you. Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Nyttend, I get the feeling that you aren't really talking about what I'm talking about here. I'm not complaining about the current compromise situation with the title. We think it's unclear whether or not it's a subtitle, so since there's no consensus, we aren't changing it, but we mention both capitalizations. I don't think ": Into" or "into" are being used in any relevant sources, I believe it's all "Into", but that has nothing to do with what we're discussing in this section. Robert computer engineer (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's just another NPOV issue: we do need to report and let readers decide. Obviously we have to pick one of them for the article title, but if both ": Into" and "into" are getting used in relevant sources, it might be helpful to include a short section on the name of the film. Regardless of that, the text should generally use the same capitalisation/punctuation as the article title. Nyttend (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Shouldn't that type of discussion be here on the talk page? An Encyclopedia shouldn't be a "We report, you decide" thing that gives conflicting information in the main article. If anyone is interested in the controversy they can come to the talk page. When we revisit this page a month from now if we decide it is a subtitle we can put that back up, and if we decide it isn't, we can leave it removed. Robert computer engineer (talk) 18:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Some grammar clarifications
Several of the arguments on this page make extensive use of grammatical arguments, and much of the grammatical terminology used is either fuzzy or flat-out incorrect. I'm not going to directly address the, um, controversy above, but I want to do a little bit to clarify the grammar of the situation so as to inform further discussion and make sure people aren't talking past each other.
- First of all, under any construal, "star trek into darkness" is not a "sentence"; the debate is over whether it is two separate phrases (as argued by those supporting the "subtitle" interpretation) or one single noun phrase. As a single noun phrase, it would have the same structure as something like "road trip through wilderness". There is no dispute that the first two words are themselves a noun phrase (under either interpretation) and the last two are a prepositional phrase (under either interpretation); the question at hand is whether the prepositional phrase actually modifies the noun phrase to form a larger noun phrase, or if it remains separate.
- Under no interpretation is "trek" (or any of the other words) a verb here; although it can be one in general ("he trekked across the prairie"), in the four-word title in question, "trek" could only be a verb if its subject is "star", which is singular, and thus the required verb form would be "treks". Furthermore, that would imply that it is the stars that are trekking (traveling), but I don't think there's any dispute that the meaning here is that it's the ship's crew that is doing the trekking (through the stars). The non-proper phrase "star trek" is a noun phrase composed of two nouns, in the same way as "road trip" or for that matter "ham sandwich".
- The word "into" is also not a verb. Even if it were part of a phrasal verb construction (which it isn't here, see previous item), it would be a preposition that is either part of or complement to the verb, depending on your preferred linguistic theory. I think that what the "into is a verb" people are trying to argue is that "into darkness" attaches directly to "trek" even before "star" makes it into the mix, but that argument does not require changing the parts of speech of the words in it.
I think the linguistic arguments are sort of a sidebar to the main debate, but if people are going to keep using them it'd be good to use the right terminology so we all know what we're talking about. /blahedo (t) 19:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Frankly, I'm not sure what you're trying to say towards the end of 3., however, I think you're wrong on 2., as the title could be interpreted as a sloppily punctuated imperative, becoming clear when a hyphen and an exclamation mark are added: "Star-trek into darkness!", in the sense of "go star-trekking", "go road-tripping", "go duck-hunting", whatever.
- Now, do I think that's what's meant by the person[s] behind it all? No, but technically, it could be. Personally, I consider it likely they wanted to imply "a trek/journey/trip into sth." (a "single noun phrase", as you call it), the issue still being of whether or not to capitalize "into". If you know of a manual of style that does (along with, say, "over", "than", "till", "upon"), but which at the same time lowercases "from" and "with", let us know here – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, true, it could theoretically be an imperative, but that's not the situation the "trek is a verb" contingent was arguing. My comments at the end of 3 are basically that you could make an argument that "trek into darkness" is a phrase, which is then modified by "star", without claiming that "into" is a verb. "Into" is not a verb. I am avoiding making any specific comment about the capitalisation question in this section because I do not want to muddy the grammatical terminology point. /blahedo (t) 01:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like to point out that 'trek' cannot be properly understood as a verb in the imperative mood with 'star' as the subject because, if it were, 'star' would be vocative and thus properly require a comma. 'Trek' can still be imperative if and only if the sentence is using the implied subject 'you' and 'star' is adverbial. However, 'trek' could still be properly understood as a verb with 'star' as its subject if 'trek' is in the subjunctive rather than imperative mood. An argument for 'trek' as a verb must, in my opinion, be based on the subjunctive mood. Of course, I think it's clear 'trek' is actually a noun, I'm just pointing out that it could be a verb and still leave the title grammatically correct. Chimon (talk) 05:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
New article: Wikipedia's talk page for the article "Star Trek Into Darkness" Wstidtp (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don’t think it merits its own article, and isn’t there a policy against self-referential articles? —Frungi (talk) 20:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
It's been speedily deleted (wrongly in my view). It's also referenced in http://www.dailydot.com/society/wikipedia-star-trek-into-darkness-capitalization/ Wstidtp (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's possible that the debate could be mentioned in the film article. However, the debate is not notable enough for its own article. It's straightforward to summarize and fold the debate in the film article if there is consensus to do so. Erik (talk | contribs) 20:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See WP:SUBJECT — "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so its articles are about their subjects; they are not about the articles themselves (even if an article itself becomes famous, it should not report this about itself)." We don't have an article Wikipedia's "Elephant" article, even though an incident related to the elephant article has gotten far more coverage than this. Nyttend (talk) 20:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I was just going to bring up the now-userfied Elephant (wikipedia article) (note incorrect capitalization) and my sandboxed Elephant (wikipedia article) (Wikipedia article) (correctly capitalized, because the incorrect capitalization is part of the name of the prior article) about the preceding. cmadler (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)We do have an article on Wikipedia, however, and in the community or history section, it might be appropriate to put:
- On January 2013, Wikipedia lost its Goddamn collective mind, debating whether its suggestions regarding grammar mattered more than its rules advocating using common sense and ignoring rules when they simply do not match up with reality.(ref)http://www.dailydot.com/society/wikipedia-star-trek-into-darkness-capitalization/ "Wikipedians wage war over a capital "I" in a "Star Trek" film" By Kevin Morris, Daily Dot, 30 January 2013(/ref)
- Ian.thomson (talk) 21:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Is this really a reliable source? If so, it would be a good thing to include over there, as just another example of the phenomenon that has seen us become the only significant publisher of content that uses dashes instead of hyphens. Nyttend (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Daily Dot has editorial oversight, the usual standard for whether something's really a newspaper and not just a collaborative blog. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Is this really a reliable source? If so, it would be a good thing to include over there, as just another example of the phenomenon that has seen us become the only significant publisher of content that uses dashes instead of hyphens. Nyttend (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See WP:SUBJECT — "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so its articles are about their subjects; they are not about the articles themselves (even if an article itself becomes famous, it should not report this about itself)." We don't have an article Wikipedia's "Elephant" article, even though an incident related to the elephant article has gotten far more coverage than this. Nyttend (talk) 20:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Another newspaper reference: Trekkies take on Wikis in a grammatical tizzy over Star Trek Into Darkness http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/trekkies-take-on-wikis-in-a-grammatical-tizzy-over-star-trek-into-darkness-8475705.html Wstidtp (talk) 22:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Summary of the i / I discussion
I've tried to read though the huge amount written on i VS I but can't seem to find the crux of the argument for and against. I'm wondering if someone could summarize it, as it has now become an issue on to itself.
If I understand it right, the i people support i because the rules of Wikipedia, as reflected in the manual of style, demand it. The I people support I because the official title, as reflected in promotional material, demand it.
Am I incorrect? Or is this a basic summary? Nickjbor (talk) 20:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See #Summary of arguments, also reported here. Frungi, you're famous! Erik (talk | contribs) 20:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)A summary may be found here. In short, you are correct, though I'm wondering what ever happened to WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, WP:IAR, and WP:COMMONSENSE. If the guidelines on capitalization are law, then so are those. Is it not enough that the studio wrote the name some way that we can write without any sort of special coding? Honestly, this make us look the people Vogons make fun for being overly bureaucratic to the point that it disrupts this site's operation. This is not Berlin for the grammar Nazis, this is an encyclopedia. But no, we have to come to a compromise that makes us look a bunch of idiots arguing over every bureaucratic little thing to look like we're smart and have meaningful lives, because we have lost our our damn minds. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, writing a lower-case "into" here is really hard to interpret as anything other than neurotic rule-following taken to the point of self-parody. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:50, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- NB: this has gone far beyond the point of self-parody. - Dravecky (talk) 21:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree that debating for 6 weeks whether the letter i should be capitalized or not is a sign of some kind of psychological problem. But they were able to get themselves in an xkcd cartoon so perhaps that says something. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.179.21.226 (talk) 21:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, writing a lower-case "into" here is really hard to interpret as anything other than neurotic rule-following taken to the point of self-parody. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:50, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- You know what they say: If you're crazy enough, you'll become famous enough to become eccentric. 71.203.170.181 (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- And we've gone public: xkcd Leejoe Schar (talk) 21:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- As an outsider who has skimmed (but, sorry, not understood every nuance of) the whole protracted debate, I get the impression that it boils down to this:
- Argument in favor of "Into": it's the way it's usually written -- by the director, the producers, the studio, imdb, and every other website except Wikipedia.
- Argument in favor of "into": it's what our reading of WP:MOS says the Wikipedia article title absolutely must be, the movie's actual title and the rest of the world be damned. We're tired of arguing about it, we're super stubborn so we're not going to change it, we came up with this excellent compromise (wherein we admit right there in the lead sentence that "Into" is how the rest of the world usually writes it), and we're really annoyed that Randall Munroe sent a bunch of newcomers over here to stir things up.
- I'm sure I'll get roundly flamed for badly misrepresenting one or both arguments, but again, that's how it looks to this outsider who didn't have the benefit of living through the forty thousand words of debate in real time. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see why you should be flamed, that was an accurate representation of the arguments. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Frankly, I still find myself quite unbelieving that anyone would rather capitalise the title in such a way as to make the logical acronym STD. Surely that would be something to move away from? 82.0.149.167 (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- As an outsider who has skimmed (but, sorry, not understood every nuance of) the whole protracted debate, I get the impression that it boils down to this:
(ec)
Why are we annoyed at getting newcomers sent our way? We have an editor retention problem. How about we show those newcomers our best smiles and welcome them. :-)
Also, if the MOS is so stupid as to force us to mis-write a movie title, then the MOS is wrong, and should be changed, obviously. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, there is a third line of thinking: If Wikipedia's manual of style's capitalization rules were to be changed, both – the however-official press material and Wikipedia's guidelines – would advocate "Into". HOWEVER, for that to happen, there first would have to be found a corresponding authoritative guideline, which you then could present and propose over here (if you go there, please first familiarize yourself with the topic and read carefully what's already been written, so as not to repeat stuff that's been asked and stated several times over). Then it's for the community to decide whether or not to adopt those alternative rules. Personally, I don't mind "into", as it's just "in" and "to" put together (two words that are lowercased in quite every style guide when written individually), but find some other titles weird when styled according to the current capitalization prescriptions (all explained in the linked discussion). BUT this is not about my idiosyncracies nor yours, nor is it about a single film title (at least it isn't if you don't either reject the notion of a house style wholesale or believe that it must be subordinate to other guides or policies). Instead, a consensus solution based on reliable sources should be sought. NB: That means the outcome could also be that after all is said and done the capitalization rules don't change at all. So if you have something to contribute – a fresh perspective, specialist knowledge, access to not yet examined sources – chime in over at WT:MoS. Don't bother if you're not willing to put the necessary time, thought and energy into it. – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 22:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, actually, "in to" according to WP:MOS should be capitalized as "In to" as it is a compound (first word of a compound preposition is capitalized). The same thing is true if we have a «PropNoun into Noun» structure as the preposition requires a verb (even if it is not written, therefore an "implied verb" exists) in which case "into" usually becomes part of a phrasal verb (such as "takes into" "goes into" "treks into"). This is because "into" is a directional spatial adposition. This means that it can only be combined with verbs of motion. Thus according to current WP:MOS, must be capitalized (all prepositions of phrase verbs are capitalized). So assuming "Star Trek Into Darkness" is all one phrase, all grammatical deconstructions of that phrase, according to WP:MOS, must have "into" capitalized as "Into." — al-Shimoni (talk) 02:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, there is a third line of thinking: If Wikipedia's manual of style's capitalization rules were to be changed, both – the however-official press material and Wikipedia's guidelines – would advocate "Into". HOWEVER, for that to happen, there first would have to be found a corresponding authoritative guideline, which you then could present and propose over here (if you go there, please first familiarize yourself with the topic and read carefully what's already been written, so as not to repeat stuff that's been asked and stated several times over). Then it's for the community to decide whether or not to adopt those alternative rules. Personally, I don't mind "into", as it's just "in" and "to" put together (two words that are lowercased in quite every style guide when written individually), but find some other titles weird when styled according to the current capitalization prescriptions (all explained in the linked discussion). BUT this is not about my idiosyncracies nor yours, nor is it about a single film title (at least it isn't if you don't either reject the notion of a house style wholesale or believe that it must be subordinate to other guides or policies). Instead, a consensus solution based on reliable sources should be sought. NB: That means the outcome could also be that after all is said and done the capitalization rules don't change at all. So if you have something to contribute – a fresh perspective, specialist knowledge, access to not yet examined sources – chime in over at WT:MoS. Don't bother if you're not willing to put the necessary time, thought and energy into it. – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 22:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Concerning Capitalization: Official Website and Publications
After reading most of the long and heated debate about the issue of capitalizing "into" and the debate as to if "Into Darkness" constitutes a subtitle or not, I decided to find official publications from the parent company, affiliates and those associated with the film in order to verify the title. After all, what is official should be represented as such in this encyclopedia. However, I do know that this conflict exists elsewhere in the world of entertainment and has been tackled in this encyclopedia. Such conflict is evident in Next to Normal which is often stylized as "next to normal" for artistic and promotional purposes. However a quick search of Next to Normal will show that in most cases, as is on the site for the official production, the words "Next" and "Normal" are capitalized when not in a stylized format. This is also how it is billed with the licensing company, MTI. When the title "Star Trek Into Darkness" was confirmed by Entertainment Weekly, they reported the lack of a colon (although acknowledging that it is implied) and also capitalized "Into" as it was confirmed to them by their sources involved with the film. As such, the official website, as seen in the title and info of its webpage, has also chosen to capitalize the word "Into" in the title. This represents not a stylization of the title, but how the title is officially structured, much like Next to Normal.
As mentioned earlier, the colon in the title is implied, but, unlike the word "Into", it has been removed for stylization purposes. As Mr. Vary states in his article for entertainment weekly, "The moniker further differentiates Abrams’ reboot of the venerable sci-fi franchise from the earlier Trek movies, which either went the roman-numeral-and-subtitle route... or eschewed the number for just a colon-ized subtitle." The use of "colon-ized" is recognition that "Into Darkness" is, in fact, a subtitle. However, this subtitle is not "colon-ized" like Star Trek movies of the past. That colon has been removed for stylization. Since "Into Darkness" is indeed a subtitle, the word "Into" should be capitalized as such. Elpato22 (talk) 21:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- When we quote something, we do not alter the quote. How are we not quoting the title when we use it? Ian.thomson (talk) 21:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that when we use the title we are quoting the title. Therefore, considering what I have stated above, as the title is "Star Trek Into Darkness" (Implied colon, capital "I"), the title must be formatted as such if we are to quote it correctly. Elpato22 (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- We're not quoting the title directly, we're writing a documentation of it. The debate (in RM form) has been closed by admin now, as it was decided that continuing this would get us nowhere at the moment. drewmunn talk 21:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Except that new debate can (and should) be sparked, because we're doing a shitty job of documenting how it's actually spelled, and new debate is being inspired by the rest of the internet pointing out the sheer bureaucratic stupidity of the supposed "compromise" that amounts to "This is what we're gonna call it, even though it's really spelled this way." Ian.thomson (talk) 22:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- We're not quoting the title directly, we're writing a documentation of it. The debate (in RM form) has been closed by admin now, as it was decided that continuing this would get us nowhere at the moment. drewmunn talk 21:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that when we use the title we are quoting the title. Therefore, considering what I have stated above, as the title is "Star Trek Into Darkness" (Implied colon, capital "I"), the title must be formatted as such if we are to quote it correctly. Elpato22 (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Complete outsider comment: the current title, with no cap I for 'into', looks stupid.
I used to edit Wikipedia a hell of a lot (100,000+ edits) but, I gave up - due to these types of ridiculous argument.
Still, at least I got a laugh out of this one, via xkcd. 88.104.7.119 (talk) 23:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Did anyone hear this talk page was featured on xkcd?? ;-) I'm another user who doesn't edit much anymore because of this kind of silliness. I'm glad you have reached a compromise solution, but it seems like a compromise for talk page editors' sake rather than for readers' sake: I think the readers will be scratching their heads as to why we aren't writing it as it's usually written. Fletcher (talk) 00:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right about "compromise for talk page editors' sake". Unfortunately, Wikipedia being what it is today, and WP:IAR notwithstanding, sometimes Wikipedia has to have the wrong version. Fortunately, in this case, the effect is likely to be temporary; after things cool down a bit (perhaps in as little as 24 hours) I expect that a proper move to the obviously-correct title will be made. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to bother reading the above discussion; the outcome is so obviously wrong that anyone who agrees with it ought to be ashamed of themselves and needs to step back and reconsider their participation in this project. First, our own precedents don't support this; see Straight Outta Lynwood and the contentious discussion in 2007 about that title (cf [11] for a taste). If following the MOS requires an absurd, unsupportable outcome (short version: if the MOS is an ass) then we ignore it and do the right thing. We, as in the project, look like idiots. Mackensen (talk) 00:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Apart from Straight Outta Lynwood, other conflicting precedents of note with 4-letter prepositions include Futurama: Into the Wild Green Yonder, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Bullets Over Broadway, Reign Over Me, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, Once Upon a Time, Once Upon a Time in America, The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane, and The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorencollins (talk • contribs) 17:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Unto?
Another suggestion I might add would be to rename it to "Star Trek Unto Darkness". That should end all debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoorayForZo1dberg (talk • contribs) 23:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. No offence, but that is a ridiculous idea cos it would completely change the meaning of the title. douts (talk) 23:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ridiculous idea? No offence, but this whole discussion is ridiculous! HoorayForZo1dberg (talk) 00:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- And before that XKCD comic strip attracted a load of a drive-by editors who were too damn lazy to read the discussion we had reached a sensible compromise and agreed to leave this be for a few months or until some new evidence either way could be found. douts (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- There is plenty of evidence for the uppercase I, there is no evidence (only bureaucratic application of guidelines in sheer denial of reality) for the lowercase i. Consensus can change. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm well aware consensus can change, and I know there's evidence supporting a cap-I. I'm in favour of the move myself, but things need to be left for a while to allow everyone to calm down a bit (ideally a week, bare minimum) before another move request is initiated. And besides, consensus isn't likely to change unless some new argument that hasn't already been discussed above crops up. So it's best for everyone involved to leave it be for a while. douts (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- This has gone on for months. In all that time, no real evidence for the lowercase i has come up. It is well past time for a change. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm well aware consensus can change, and I know there's evidence supporting a cap-I. I'm in favour of the move myself, but things need to be left for a while to allow everyone to calm down a bit (ideally a week, bare minimum) before another move request is initiated. And besides, consensus isn't likely to change unless some new argument that hasn't already been discussed above crops up. So it's best for everyone involved to leave it be for a while. douts (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see why we can't just go with the obvious, common-sense title: Star Trek Reboot 2: Antimatter Boogaloo. I'll go ahead and move the page. (WP:BOLD!) -- Narsil (talk) 00:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Someone needs to redefine "lazy". "too damn lazy to read the discussion" or perhaps got better things to do than read over 9000 words of nonsense. I think "Unto" is more worthy of discussion. Antimatter Boogaloo is also a nice alternative.HoorayForZo1dberg (talk) 00:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Unto and Into are 2 completely words with completely different meanings. The title of the film is Star Trek Into Darkness, NOT Star Trek Unto Darkness. douts (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- There is plenty of evidence for the uppercase I, there is no evidence (only bureaucratic application of guidelines in sheer denial of reality) for the lowercase i. Consensus can change. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- And before that XKCD comic strip attracted a load of a drive-by editors who were too damn lazy to read the discussion we had reached a sensible compromise and agreed to leave this be for a few months or until some new evidence either way could be found. douts (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ridiculous idea? No offence, but this whole discussion is ridiculous! HoorayForZo1dberg (talk) 00:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Douts, it's obvious that he's joking. Ryan Vesey 00:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Strongly Disagree. If you're redefining lazy, then there should be no problem with substituting "into" with "unto". Besides, they're not completely different; in fact, they're 75% the same! HoorayForZo1dberg (talk) 00:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agree with slight modification. I think we should change it to Star Wars Unto Darkness. I personally like Star Wars better, and I don't think it's hard to see why we should prefer this. Even George Takei started out acting for Star Trek and later decided to switch to voice acting for Star Wars, which should tell you something. -- 173.105.255.47 (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I LOL'D I honestly got a pretty good kick out of this. It sums up everything this thread has been through. Basically, "Screw it, let's just rename the movie." Elpato22 (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
"Usually written as..." >> "also written as"
At the risk of getting flamed from both sides, I changed "Usually written as..." to "also written as" in the opening sentence. "Usually" smacks of WP:OR and we don't need a verify dispute in the opening line. I'm neutral on the dispute apart from this. Manning (talk) 00:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The only place it is written with a lowercase i is in this article. "Always written as" would be more appropriate. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking it should be "always, except on Wikipedia because we're dumb like that" or perhaps just "always" if the former is pointy. I'm on the verge of eliminating this farce and having this article match reality. If the MOS requires a contrary outcome then it's wrong and should be changed after we've fixed on obvious problem in mainspace. Style guides exist to serve articles and not the reverse. Mackensen (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I prefer Mackensen's proposal, but I'd be willing to settle with usually. I've done a search and haven't pulled up any other source that uses the lower case. Ryan Vesey 01:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Manning, in a normal situation I'd call your edit an acceptable bold one; however, you made the edit through protection (I'm not sure if you were aware). As such, consensus should be sought first. Can you undo your edit until you can achieve consensus? Ryan Vesey 01:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- There cannot be consensus to change reality. Clearly, and I hope I'll be forgiven for saying so, this high-profile article was given over to editors who fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of the project and believed that we were creating a Manual of Style. They were then enabled by an administrator whom I otherwise respect who had the opportunity to end the madness and took the weak way out. The project has now been brought into severe disrepute. To quote Golbez, this is why we can't have nice things. Manning's edit should stand. Mackensen (talk) 01:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm thoroughly confused by your response to me. Having just previously argued that "always" was appropriate, you state that an edit for which he cannot achieve consensus, and that he made through protection, should stand. Is one of us misunderstanding something? Ryan Vesey 01:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, I don't think so. I'm saying that the present state of the article is so obviously unacceptable and disreputable that editing through protection is an acceptable. Yes, yes, I'm aware of m:Wrong version. What we've got here is a situation wherein a horrible, bureaucratic argument devoid of any common sense was allowed to persist beyond any usefulness and is now causing active harm. Mackensen (talk) 01:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The entire point of full protection is the existence of a content dispute. Administrators are handed the tools because the community has deemed them worthy of judging the outcome of discussions. Administrators are not allowed to make any edit they want to a fully protected article. This wasn't a minor edit, this didn't deal with any pressing concerns such as copyvio, this edit changed the meaning of the sentence. What confuses me most about your argument is that you seem to disagree with his edit, yet you support his ability to make it. Ryan Vesey 01:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- His edit was a good start, but we can do better. Further, administrators can and do blow it. Happens all the time. We don't sacrifice articles on the altar of process. What's called for here is a moment of clarity, not more bureaucracy. Mackensen (talk) 01:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- In defense of process: there's nothing wrong with process, per-se. But process is like a chainsaw. You can't just go around waving it blindly! Process is a powerful tool. Use it responsibly. You have to use the right process, you use it in the right way, hold it firm and steady, and keep an eye on it in case it kicks, blows up, or tries to eviscerate you. :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- His edit was a good start, but we can do better. Further, administrators can and do blow it. Happens all the time. We don't sacrifice articles on the altar of process. What's called for here is a moment of clarity, not more bureaucracy. Mackensen (talk) 01:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The entire point of full protection is the existence of a content dispute. Administrators are handed the tools because the community has deemed them worthy of judging the outcome of discussions. Administrators are not allowed to make any edit they want to a fully protected article. This wasn't a minor edit, this didn't deal with any pressing concerns such as copyvio, this edit changed the meaning of the sentence. What confuses me most about your argument is that you seem to disagree with his edit, yet you support his ability to make it. Ryan Vesey 01:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, I don't think so. I'm saying that the present state of the article is so obviously unacceptable and disreputable that editing through protection is an acceptable. Yes, yes, I'm aware of m:Wrong version. What we've got here is a situation wherein a horrible, bureaucratic argument devoid of any common sense was allowed to persist beyond any usefulness and is now causing active harm. Mackensen (talk) 01:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm thoroughly confused by your response to me. Having just previously argued that "always" was appropriate, you state that an edit for which he cannot achieve consensus, and that he made through protection, should stand. Is one of us misunderstanding something? Ryan Vesey 01:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- There cannot be consensus to change reality. Clearly, and I hope I'll be forgiven for saying so, this high-profile article was given over to editors who fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of the project and believed that we were creating a Manual of Style. They were then enabled by an administrator whom I otherwise respect who had the opportunity to end the madness and took the weak way out. The project has now been brought into severe disrepute. To quote Golbez, this is why we can't have nice things. Manning's edit should stand. Mackensen (talk) 01:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I've removed all the weaselly nonsense from the intro. If someone wants to produce a source that says anyone OTHER THAN A SMALL CABAL OF WIKIPEDIA EDITORS thinks the title is rendered with a lowercase "i" then we can change it. Seriously people, this is the worst thing I've seen in years. I won't move the article, yet, because that makes a mess and this talk page is active, but it should move as soon as possible. Mackensen (talk) 01:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Note to Ryan - Nope, sorry, I missed that the page was under admin-only protection (I saw the pink banner but didn't read closely enough, assumed it was run-of-the-mill PP). Apologies to all for my unintended abuse of admin rights. Manning (talk) 03:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Has it already been proposed that MOS:CT deserves an update?
I haven't heard any arguments for "into" that don't boil down to "because the manual of style says so". But the manual of style is only a house rule, and the reason there is no universally-accepted rule in English for this is because of all the situations like this in which absolute rules strongly clash with common sense. (Alternatively, this also seems like exactly the sort of situation that Ignore all rules was made for.) 142.1.229.55 (talk) 01:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- All we need is a clear statement that WP:COMMONNAME takes preference over anything else. Ryan Vesey 01:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I suggested above that the MOS be fixed after the article was, in case there was still confusion about which is more important. Also, this is totally what IAR is for. Mackensen (talk) 01:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#COMMONNAME should take precedence. It's a small change, and only resolves part of what is probably a much bigger problem, but it solves this problem specifically. Ryan Vesey 01:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Since we have quickly learned that COMMONNAME in fact already had precedence, that was a short discussion. O:-)
- --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Ok, So. Now that we have established that the current title violates policy ... well, let's wait and see if anyone finds a mistake in the reasoning for a minute at least ;-)
- I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#COMMONNAME should take precedence. It's a small change, and only resolves part of what is probably a much bigger problem, but it solves this problem specifically. Ryan Vesey 01:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Frankly, it's an open secret that the MOS isn't even a consensus document. It's the worst example extant in Wikipedia of centralized documents being used to push policy in a top-down fashion rather than documenting what's arisen organically, and it shouldn't ever be held to override any legitimate, practice-derived policy or guideline. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
The worst part of the "because the manual of style says so" argument is that it is flat out wrong. The manual of style SAYS to CAPITALIZE COMPOUND PREPOSITIONS. Into is a compound preposition. Thus the rules state it should be capitalized. The only people arguing for lower case are those that are incorrectly reading the manual of style.Xkcdreader (talk) 05:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I do no think that a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#COMMONNAME should take precedence is appropriate. That section was created to advertise (and ongoing) RfC on whether the MOS rules should have precedence over other (see Wikipedia talk:Article titles#RfC on COMMONSTYLE proposal -- more input for other editors to help create a consensus are of course welcome)
The relevant link in this case is WP:LOWERCASE which like WP:COMMONNAME is part of the AT policy page, so the appropriate discussions forum for changes to guidance over this issue should be addressed to Wikipedia talk:Article titles. -- PBS (talk) 08:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- That section directs you to the guideline WP:NCCAPS for more guidance on capitalization of proper nouns. Said guidance was a good chunk of the arguments against this article’s current title. —Frungi (talk) 23:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hey: Lookie Here:
![]() | This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page. |
Use Common Sense! It will have occasional exceptions! It's all there right at the tippy-top of the style manual. There are some real concrete thinkers on here. Whew. WHat about DGAF and all those other things. People, to quote William Shatner: "Get a life!" No hazmats (talk) 22:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- @Frungi you wrote "Said guidance was a good chunk of the arguments against this article’s current title", yes it does, as does the article titles policy page. But that is not germane to the point I was making. The point I was making was that this is not an issue where in the first instance guidance should be sought from MOS, the place to look for guidance is in the article titles policy and its naming conventions (guidelines). It is widely agreed that naming conventions can supplement and enhanced the policy page but they can not contradict it (if they do then that guidance should be placed to one side in favour of what the policy says). -- PBS (talk) 08:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Requested move (again)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the move request was: Snow closing this as endorsing the page move, because the supports are coming down faster than the foot of snow I got last night, and there is a clear consensus to keep the title at its current name. Can we move past this ridiculous chapter in our history now? While the media coverage of this is rather entertaining, it's not exactly beneficial to our image as an encyclopedia. Let's all go work on a couple articles (my nomination: Argentine–Chilean naval arms race) and do something that matters. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Due to previous issues with the WP:RM process, the current process in use at this location is WP:BRD. --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Star Trek into Darkness → Star Trek Into Darkness – The title with the uppercased i is unambiguously the common name for this movie. Ryan Vesey 02:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Due respect to you as a person but I don't respect the RM procedure (unless something changed, they weren't required by policy before). Even if I did respect RM, we've had 2 here already in recent history, one blew up spectacularly (quelle surprise) and one was speedy closed. Can we hold off 24 hours or not run this particular process at all? --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think it should be moved first, and then a requested move done in the other direction. That aside, it hasn't be moved yet, and moving it would be an acceptable edit in the context of the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Failing all these sensible outcomes, support. Mackensen (talk) 02:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Mackensen's proposed course of action would also be acceptable. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, on further thought. I'm stripping the RM tag. 7 days till closure? That's against WP:COMMON sense in this case. We're not going to do another RM here. I'm just not entirely ready to move the page myself. I don't have time to read through the reasoning to see if there's some babies in with the bathwater I should know about. If anyone else does have time, do please give it a whirl! --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- An RM technically goes for 7 days, but many have been closed early when consensus seemed obvious. Ryan Vesey 02:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've repeatedly threatened to execute this move so I've now done so. I believe this is in keeping with the BRD cycle and the page is not currently protected. I will not engage in any edit-warring over the matter. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 02:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Noting that this proposal at Talk:Star_Trek_into_Darkness/Archive_1#Requested_move_.28again.29 had consensus on 18 September 2011 before an unexpected interjection of MOS cries derailed it and Elen closed on the basis of an out-of-process and too short parallel proposal. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Wait just a damn minute, please - We had a move discussion and there was no consensus for a move to take place. Anyone deciding to move the article without first establishing a consensus to do so is making a grave mistake. I have strong objections to the way certain editors have behaved in the last few hours. One thing that concerns me is that Kim Bruning changed MOS:CT and then started talking about renaming this article to match the change. That's not appropriate behavior. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Almost. The applicable Policy is at WP:COMMONNAME. My slight alteration updated the MoS page with my understanding. This should famous last words be fairly uncontroversial. See also the relevant talk page. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Do I have to bring up RED? RAP (talk) 13:32 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Isn't that an acronym? --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Do I have to bring up RED? RAP (talk) 13:32 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Vehement support move and protection. Situation was just inutterably stupid. Best WP:IAR ever. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:44, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - That this move has taken place without first establishing a consensus (per policy) is a disgrace. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- There was at least a consensus on the fact that our non-capitalization was unique in the media and supported solely by our own MOS. Also, WP:BURO/WP:IAR. —Frungi (talk) 02:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The disgrace is that it took WP:BOLD administrative action to implement the simplest of common sense. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- (ec2*) Ha! I helped write that policy. Currently this page is kind of world-infamous because it couldn't converge on a consensus on a single letter. So we're applying a different procedure to see if that'll work instead. Feel free to revert&contact Mackensen if you disagree with the move, as per WP:BRD, :-) (but expect to have some work at it, afterwards) :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Wrong, Scjessey. The disgrace is that this argument lasted for so long, Reddit and The Daily Dot have brought it up, making us all look so stupid. The disgrace is that this argument lasted 2 months. RAP (talk) 5:35 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment I've restored the official move request despite the fact that the article has already been moved. If another admin happens to move it back, the discussion will still be ongoing. If it is not, we can at least show that consensus was achieved after the fact. There's a number here who think that completely disregarding process is okay because a long discussion never reached consensus and they are certain in the correctness of their statements. I believe the same things as they do; however, disregarding process creates a mess and I want no part in it. Ryan Vesey 02:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that following process means what you think it means. One thing it doesn't mean is to actually MAKE a mess, thanks.
- People need to use processes and policies as tools in an intelligent manner. Something which has quite evidently not been done here. (else folks like Mackensen and myself wouldn't have to come around and fix it. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC) A process is a tool for people. People are not a tool for process :-P
- Comment. Just so it's clear, I support my own move and believe it ought to be uncontroversial to use WP:COMMONNAME for an article title. That's a policy. It's been a policy for ages. Claims that the MOS trumps it are wrong-headed and there was never any consensus that the MOS did so. Mackensen (talk) 02:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Nobody said anything about MOS:CT trumping WP:COMMONNAME. Our contention was that "Into Darkness" was not a subtitle and was, therefore, subject to the longstanding MOS:CT guidelines on prepositions. There are DOZENS of compositions with articles on Wikipedia that follow exactly the same guideline, but you have allowed a CARTOON dictate that an exception be made, ignoring the existing consensus. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- All the cartoon did was inform people of the dispute. I for one had no idea this discussion was taking place. The cartoon didn't offer a legitimate suggestion as to what the title should be. Ryan Vesey 03:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Mackensen hasn't done anything of the sort, of course. :-). My recommendation is to read up on the current process in use, and act as you deem appropriate.:-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I can't act as appropriate because after moving the page against consensus, the problem was compounded with the additional abuse of an unnecessary page protection. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ah. Expires in 24 hours though. That said, if you want, we can pretend you reverted if you like (though it's not mandatory to revert before opening a discussion section) , and you can open a discussion section below with your reasoning for the revert (definitely mandatory, if you want to pursue this at least :-) ). --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I can't act as appropriate because after moving the page against consensus, the problem was compounded with the additional abuse of an unnecessary page protection. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Question to Scjessey. Are those other articles named inconsistently with standard use? Do they use a spelling, capitalization, punctuation, etc. that no reliable source uses? —Frungi (talk) 03:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's not really something I should be expanding upon on this talk page. Let's just say that MOS:CT has existed more or less in the same form for ages, so literally hundreds of composition titles (not just movies, but music, scholarly pamphlets, etc.) have had the guideline applied to them. It's been like that for years. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to be avoiding the question—does that guideline conflict with WP:COMMONNAME in any of those examples, as was the case here with “into Darkness”? Because it’s kinda seeming like you’re objecting just to object. —Frungi (talk) 03:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I am not avoiding it. I just think this isn't the right place to discuss it. I think MOS:CT absolutely can conflict with WP:COMMONNAME (although a recent undiscussed edit changes that for future articles), and as such it has left a legacy where hundreds of articles are now probably mistitled. This debate has been very useful for the wider debate going on at MOS:CT about what to do with prepositions in composition titles. It is a shame that the bigger problem could not have been fully resolved before resolving the matter here. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to be avoiding the question—does that guideline conflict with WP:COMMONNAME in any of those examples, as was the case here with “into Darkness”? Because it’s kinda seeming like you’re objecting just to object. —Frungi (talk) 03:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's not really something I should be expanding upon on this talk page. Let's just say that MOS:CT has existed more or less in the same form for ages, so literally hundreds of composition titles (not just movies, but music, scholarly pamphlets, etc.) have had the guideline applied to them. It's been like that for years. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Question to Scjessey. Are those other articles named inconsistently with standard use? Do they use a spelling, capitalization, punctuation, etc. that no reliable source uses? —Frungi (talk) 03:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I Love You. I would like to hereby proclaim my undying love for Mackensen for doing the right thing, editing the page, and moving it to fit the appropriate title. I commend the user for also backing it up with sound logic and reason proving the edit to be correct, as the majority has known all along. Hopefully this made-up controversy will die out sometime soon. Elpato22 (talk) 03:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: Good move. To those who are objecting, concerned that this came too soon after the previous two move requests and without any new information to change the argument, there was something new: a bunch of fresh eyeballs, who came to a different consensus. And to those who are concerned that this amounted to "canvassing", let me point out that, although many of the fresh eyeballs are surely here solely due to the xkcd comic, that comic did not lobby either for "Into" or "into". The influx of new eyeballs did not come predisposed for one conclusion or the other, just for finding the right one. —Steve Summit (talk) 03:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Report the movie title as wrong to Google when you search for it and Wikipedia comes up on the right, https://www.google.com/search?q=Star+Trek+Into+Darkness Click on "Feedback" at the bottom of the Wikipedia section and click the title as "Wrong".
- Page moving in the face of a contested RM moves this into WP:WHEEL space. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. With who or what am I wheel-warring? What did I revert? WP:RM is a process which doesn't even have policy status. If you're right then every deletion process that gets escalated to a speedy would be wheel-warring. Please explain further or withdraw the accusation. Best, Mackensen (talk) 03:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not quite. You do have to let people at least take a crack at it under WP:BRD, or else we're really smoked, right? --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC) And if you have enough reasons under BRD to rv, you can go ahead and give it a shot. ps. RM is not a policy.
- I didn't say there is a violation already. Just that closing contested RMs is an administrator role, and that the ante is now raised. BRD needs care. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BRD is bold, revert, discuss. The move was bold, it should be reverted, and now discussed. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- In BRD, reversion of good faith edits is the negative hurdle to be overcome, not a required part of the process.
- --Kim Bruning (talk) 10:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's hardly a good faith edit, it's an incredibly controversial one, as the wealth of discussion above can attest to. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- A controversial edit (if that) can still be made in good faith.
- --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC) ps. accusing people of acting in bad faith never ends well. Would you consider withdrawing that part of your statement, or qualifying it as 'may at times appear to be bad faith' or etc. ? :-)
- It's hardly a good faith edit, it's an incredibly controversial one, as the wealth of discussion above can attest to. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - User:xkcd did not advocate one "into" or "Into" in his comic (Jan 30), but rather commented on it, admins did not use his comic to dictate an action. However, his comment did bring the debate to a broader number of admins, and those admins have pointed out the WP policy that seems to have been missed in this long discussion (a policy that trumps the MOS). Hopefully, with thanks to Randall, maybe we can soon put an end to this debate, shelve it in an archive, and actually discuss the content of the article, not the capitalization of it. Thanks, Mackensen and any other admin who has stepped in to kill this ongoing debate here, on the MOS pages (where it had bled into weeks ago), and elsewhere on WP. And thanks goes to Randall for ultimately bringing this to the attention of the above admins. — al-Shimoni (talk) 03:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support/Comment: If anyone disagrees with the current, capitalized title, I hope that they choose to leave it at this name, which seems to have majority support, and start an RM to move it back. Even though I think WP:SNOW might apply to that RM ever getting consensus. —Frungi (talk) 04:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support: find one official source that uses the lowercase i. The title is spelled with an uppercase I, period, end of discussion. The MOS does not trump reality, it is merely a suggestion to keep things uniform when there is nothing else to base a decision on. Reality is the best reason to make a decision. There were plenty of people giving policy based reasons for the upper case I, consensus is still consensus if a bunch of wikilawyers don't like it. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support alternate move to Star Trek İnto Darkness. Now you MOS-thumpers can have your beloved little dot and the rest of us still have the capital letter that gives our readers the impression that this is an encyclopedia made by people who actually have half a clue of what they're doing! Yay! ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support Mackensen's policy-compliant move. THIS IS WHY WP:AT IS A POLICY AND WP:MOS IS A GUIDELINE, DUDES.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- PS -- why are we going insane here, where Once Upon a Time (TV series) has never been at any other title? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - Why is this RM seeking movement to this article's current title? GoodDay (talk) 04:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- RM was initiated prior to a WP:BOLD move by Mackensen. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:44, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support alternate move I still prefer to rename it to Star Trek Unto Darkness as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Star_Trek_into_Darkness#Unto.3F — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoorayForZo1dberg (talk • contribs) 04:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support I hope everyone learned a valuable lesson today; Parkinson's law of triviality fully applies to Wikipedia. The discussion didn't get out of hand despite being trivial, it got out of hand because it was trivial. Mynameisntbob1 (talk) 05:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Don't you mean Parkinson's Law of Triviality? Fletcher (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- No exception for adages, sorry. Murphy's law will have to stay lowercased, sources and WP:COMMONNAME be damned to hell. Oh, and style guides that recommend capitalization of Murphy's Law can also go to hell [[12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]]. Wikipedia knows better than reliable sources. I am not bitter at all. No, really. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Don't you mean Parkinson's Law of Triviality? Fletcher (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support, it's capitalized on the article's top image. GoodDay (talk) 05:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Er, no, that’s all caps. But everywhere that it’s not all caps, it is capitalized. —Frungi (talk) 05:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Cool. GoodDay (talk) 05:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Er, no, that’s all caps. But everywhere that it’s not all caps, it is capitalized. —Frungi (talk) 05:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support To me, it's just a matter of recognizing the subtitle. The official name and common name are what they are because almost everyone recognizes it. Fletcher (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support Into is a compound preposition. The MOS says compound prepositions are capitalized. Anyone advocating lower case is selectively reading the MOS. Xkcdreader (talk) 05:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- 'Into' is just a preposition. Compound prepositions are when you combine multiple words, like "according to". Fletcher (talk) 05:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Incorrect, Into is a compound preposition compounding the words in and to. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/594/02/ Xkcdreader (talk) 05:42, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- 'Into' is just a preposition. Compound prepositions are when you combine multiple words, like "according to". Fletcher (talk) 05:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support All of the authoritative sources we have are saying "Into Darkness", with a capital. This is clear WP:COMMONNAME territory, even without counting the definition of it as an implied subtitle by various publications and as a subtitle by the creator. Seriously, guys, stop trying to change history without even having the sources for it. Having it uncapitalized is pure WP:OR. SilverserenC 05:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support I made a comment above, but did not at that moment express my Support for the move that has now been done. I so now state that I support the move to "Star Trek Into Darkness". — al-Shimoni (talk) 06:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment With all this arguing, you might as well make it, "574R 7r3K 1n70 D4rKn355". Can't people just leave things alone until there is a 100% definitive say one way or another? I mean, I personally think "Into" is correct, but I wouldn't keep an edit war going over it 70.73.185.165 (talk) 06:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support, preferably with colon as per the early-closed move request above. Came here from xkcd, etc. Yes, it's normally bad form to run a Requested Move immediately after a previous one closed. However, not capitalizing "into" is so silly that WP:IAR applies. Yes, prepositions are normally not capitalized in titles. Except when the aesthetics are bad. Really, that's pretty much the rule, author's choice, capitalizing or not capitalizing the small words is a choice on what to emphasize. "into", being the only lowercase in such a version, looks bad. Paramount apparently agrees. It's as simple as that. (If Wikipedia wants to shy away from crazier stylings like Se7en, fine, but for a case like this, the rule in English really is "author does whatever fits.") SnowFire (talk) 08:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support BUT DO NOT ADD A COLON AND OPEN ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS - No official source uses a colon so neither should we. This has gone on long enough now largely due to those who have slavishly pointed to the MOS as justification for obdurately opposing all logical arguments to fixing the title to its proper form. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias describe the real world - if not, what are they for? This should never have gone on this long and some editors need to examine their behaviour and the image they project to the world of how Wikipedians operate. I would also suggest that the flood of "new editors" currently invading this talk page because they've seen a cartoon or whatever read thoroughly all previous discussions on this matter before rehashing old ground, which some are clearly not doing. Now let's all go away, take a breath and stick Wrath of Khan on. All will be well. Nsign (talk) 09:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support with comment on colons For consistency with all other Star Trek articles on Wikipedia, all of which were styled without a colon in their promotional materials but use a colon here, I think the colon really does belong in the end. But, as Nsign says above, this has gone on long enough for now, it's at a respectable stable point that's not making people go "WTF?", and the colon conversation can be brought up later. So, let's be happy with this giant leap in the right direction and take the last small step later after we've all had a rest. --Pfhorrest (talk) 09:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC) (inserted here due to edit conflict)
- Oppose, but also I give up. This move has been bulldozed through by a bunch of fanboys who clearly have no regard for Wikipedia processes, conventions and practices. How the f--- has this been moved? An editor claims WP:BRD, but The bold, revert, discuss cycle requires that the page should be in the original state while the discussion takes place. And then someone has changed the MOS:CT guideline to fit in with this move, which is despicable and WP:POINTY. Given the lengthy ongoing discussion on this, and the recent media attention, it shows a complete lack of respect on behalf of the nominator for Wikipedia, its guidelines and its diligent editors. Remember, WP:NORUSH. Poor show chaps, poor show. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and note the capitalisation in this article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Don't throw your toys out of the pram. Dismissing this as being bulldozed through by a bunch of fanboys is simple petulance. The conventions and practices in this case were unsatisfactory to a clear majority of users and several wikipedia policies, from common name to the MOS itself, allowed for exceptions to be made where appropriate. The title of the film is Star Trek Into Darkness and it should be titled Star Trek Into Darkness here. Those who insist that the hallowed MOS cannot in fact be bent, even though more than one policy says it can, are damaging wikipedia's public image and the wider world has now unfortunately started to notice. And "no rush" my arse, this has dragged on for weeks. The article is now correct and this needs to end now. Nsign (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Someone has rushed to move it in order to influence the discussion so we are now discussing from a different position. If people don't like the practices they should seek to change them. And don't forget that there are two sides to every argument. To claim it is the people sticking up for Wikipedia's style guides that are damaging Wikipedia's reputation, is an accusation that could equally be applied to the fanboys. Don't forget, per WP:NCCAPS: "Wikipedia strives to become a leading (if not the leading) reference work in its genre, formality and an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Being bold was the only way there was ever going to be some kind of resolution on this. The article is correct. I see no arguments from anywhere other than the handful of stubborn editors who will hold fast to the MOS mast as it sinks in a sea of common sense that the "fanboys" have damaged anything by ensuring this article reflects real-world usage, rather than a stubborn and unsatisfactory application of a flexible guideline. Nsign (talk) 10:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Bold, REVERT, then discuss. That's how it works. And have you not read the intro to WP:NCCAPS? --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I have and its a guideline thats also subject to common sense in its own words, and common name trumps it as policy anyway. Take it further Rob, report it to whoever, stamp your feet - nothing changes the fact that the editor has done the right thing and titled the article correctly. Nsign (talk) 11:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Revert is not mandatory. Reversion is the Bad Thing That Sometimes Happens that you want to fix, not the Lovely Thing you deliberately should do.
- We're already discussing now. That part is good. Someone hijacked the discussion and made it into a bleeping RM thread. That part is bad. --Kim Bruning (talk) 11:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC) meh, you win some, you lose some
- Bold, REVERT, then discuss. That's how it works. And have you not read the intro to WP:NCCAPS? --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Being bold was the only way there was ever going to be some kind of resolution on this. The article is correct. I see no arguments from anywhere other than the handful of stubborn editors who will hold fast to the MOS mast as it sinks in a sea of common sense that the "fanboys" have damaged anything by ensuring this article reflects real-world usage, rather than a stubborn and unsatisfactory application of a flexible guideline. Nsign (talk) 10:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Someone has rushed to move it in order to influence the discussion so we are now discussing from a different position. If people don't like the practices they should seek to change them. And don't forget that there are two sides to every argument. To claim it is the people sticking up for Wikipedia's style guides that are damaging Wikipedia's reputation, is an accusation that could equally be applied to the fanboys. Don't forget, per WP:NCCAPS: "Wikipedia strives to become a leading (if not the leading) reference work in its genre, formality and an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Don't throw your toys out of the pram. Dismissing this as being bulldozed through by a bunch of fanboys is simple petulance. The conventions and practices in this case were unsatisfactory to a clear majority of users and several wikipedia policies, from common name to the MOS itself, allowed for exceptions to be made where appropriate. The title of the film is Star Trek Into Darkness and it should be titled Star Trek Into Darkness here. Those who insist that the hallowed MOS cannot in fact be bent, even though more than one policy says it can, are damaging wikipedia's public image and the wider world has now unfortunately started to notice. And "no rush" my arse, this has dragged on for weeks. The article is now correct and this needs to end now. Nsign (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and note the capitalisation in this article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Reliable(?) source on the title question
Can we consider the Daily Dot to be a reliable source? If so, this article explicitly addresses whether “Into” should be capitalized. I believe this brings the total to at least one source explicitly for capitalizing, and zero against, and this should settle the debate for now. (Ha, I actually typed this while the page was being moved, and got a redirect page when I tried to post it. And then it double posted when I tried again.) —Frungi (talk) 02:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot is not necessarily a reliable source, however it basically outlines the common sense reasoning of why it should be "Into Darkness." It seems people just got caught up in technicalities, and overanalyzed the situation. Elpato22 (talk) 03:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- As I've mentioned somewhere earlier, the Daily Dot has the sort of editorial oversight we require for a journalistic source to be reliable. However, how the studio spelled it should be a valid enough source. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree with your second point in that it doesn’t matter (for article titling purposes) what style the studio uses if no one actually uses it in practice. But that’s obviously not the case here, anyway. —Frungi (talk) 04:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree it wouldn't be the final source, but in the absence of all other information, that would be a valid source. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Why is startrekmovie.com not considered a reliable source? They have the capitalized "i" in the fine print at the bottom of their main page. Mistrx75 (talk) 05:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It’s a primary source; in general, secondary sources are more reliable. Also, see my previous post. —Frungi (talk) 05:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Any small group of people can put together a website and call one of their number the editor; that doesn't give it a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". We really need documentation from something that's published in real life as well as online. We most definitely should depend on the moviemaker's own website, regardless of how it capitalises it — this is a good example of WP:SELFSOURCE. Nyttend (talk) 06:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It’s a primary source; in general, secondary sources are more reliable. Also, see my previous post. —Frungi (talk) 05:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Why is startrekmovie.com not considered a reliable source? They have the capitalized "i" in the fine print at the bottom of their main page. Mistrx75 (talk) 05:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree it wouldn't be the final source, but in the absence of all other information, that would be a valid source. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree with your second point in that it doesn’t matter (for article titling purposes) what style the studio uses if no one actually uses it in practice. But that’s obviously not the case here, anyway. —Frungi (talk) 04:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- As I've mentioned somewhere earlier, the Daily Dot has the sort of editorial oversight we require for a journalistic source to be reliable. However, how the studio spelled it should be a valid enough source. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is not a question of primary/secondary sourcing or reliability, but of source reputabilty and independence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- And the Daily Dot has been considered a reliable source multiple times on RSN. SilverserenC 08:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- "Is it reliable that they spell it that way" is not a meaningful question. The meaningful question is "are they well reputed". Do others care what they publish? (I think the answer is yes). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we can consider as reliable a source that seriously argues that the preposition must be capitalized "because Star Trek is a noun" (so what? you can still have a trek into something, a voyage up something, etc.) That said, it seems pretty stupid to me to insist on keeping the preposition in lower case just because of some internal convention that someone's dreamed up. If the convention is causing us to go against what common sense dictates and what the rest of the world is doing, then just change (or make an exception to) the convention. All this argument is making Wikipedia (and more significantly, Wikipedians) look silly. Victor Yus (talk) 11:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Given that everyone from Time to The New York Times spells it cap-I, I'm not sure what difference it makes if it a little-known website also spells it cap-I. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It’s not that they’re another source that uses a capital ‘I’. It’s that they explicitly say to use a capital ‘I’. A while back, I asked what would be necessary to allow an exception to the MOS, and one editor said that this would have to happen, and it has. —Frungi (talk) 23:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Given that everyone from Time to The New York Times spells it cap-I, I'm not sure what difference it makes if it a little-known website also spells it cap-I. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Colon usage: should we use "Star Trek: Into Darkness" or "Star Trek Generations"?
Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol
The film Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol , also by J.J. Abrams, likewise features the name of the main series in a smaller font with the subtitle (if you can call it that) in a larger font on the next line. So the display of the title of Star Trek Into Darkness was probably chosen this way to ape J.J. Abrams last MI film. The WP article uses some kind of dash in the title of Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol so how about using a dash here as well. So we would have Star Trek – Into Darkness. Wstidtp (talk) 23:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The official M:I site uses a dash. Not so for STID. (Is that acronym a thing? I’m going to start saying “stid” out loud when referring to it.) Pretty much everyone capitalizes the ‘I’ with no punctuation. Besides, the supertitle M:I has a colon in it itself, so the dash is necessary for clarity. “Mission: Impossible: Ghost Protocol” doesn’t really make sense to the eye. —Frungi (talk) 23:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I haven't seen any other sources that use "Star Trek – Into Darkness" while there are a number of sources (although not all) which use "Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol". Ryan Vesey 23:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Plus there's a factual error in this proposal. Abrams didn't direct M:I – GP; Stuart Baird did. Abrams directed Mission: Impossible III. Anyway, the point is that "Star Trek Into Darkness" is the way that the actual people involved in creating the work have consistently capitalized it, and we have no damn right morally to do otherwise. oknazevad (talk) 03:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- We do it with hundreds of other composition titles. What has morality got to do with it? -- Scjessey (talk) 03:31, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, it’s that it’s the way everyone has consistently capitalized it—sometimes I see a colon, but the capitalization is universal, from what I can tell. Wikipedia ought not be the exception to something like that. Adherence to house style rules was the issue for some WP editors, but if every source, including those with similar house rules, breaks theirs, then we still ought not be the exception. —Frungi (talk) 05:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Plus there's a factual error in this proposal. Abrams didn't direct M:I – GP; Stuart Baird did. Abrams directed Mission: Impossible III. Anyway, the point is that "Star Trek Into Darkness" is the way that the actual people involved in creating the work have consistently capitalized it, and we have no damn right morally to do otherwise. oknazevad (talk) 03:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Splitting the talk page into "(i|I)nto" and "non-(i|I)nto"
So that sane, productive discussions about actually improving the article can actually take place rather than getting lost in all the mud-slinging. 184.70.12.238 (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hopefully, this is no longer necessary now that the article has been moved and the furor seems to have died down, and further discussion on this page will be about improving the article rather than arguing over names. —Frungi (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This page was the best flame-fest ever! Can someone rename the page back to 'i' so we can carry on? Hughperkins (talk) 02:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If that’s the goal, then I think you’d do better to rename it to ‘u’ per this discussion, and then vociferously argue for it when they want to move it back. —Frungi (talk) 02:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- That section was definitely the highlight for me. Especially the Star Wars comment. I laugh out loud every time I re-read it! Hughperkins (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- why don't we just not use capital letters on wikipedia? the english language used to use capitals for all nouns, now only proper nouns and beginning of sentences. we dont need them at the beginning of sentences, there's a period. plus, its very cool in a low key way. and, with smaller letters, we would use fewer electrons. user:mercurywoodrose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercurywoodrose (talk • contribs) 02:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Because Jimbo is not E.E. Cummings. —Frungi (talk) 05:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- why don't we just not use capital letters on wikipedia? the english language used to use capitals for all nouns, now only proper nouns and beginning of sentences. we dont need them at the beginning of sentences, there's a period. plus, its very cool in a low key way. and, with smaller letters, we would use fewer electrons. user:mercurywoodrose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercurywoodrose (talk • contribs) 02:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- That section was definitely the highlight for me. Especially the Star Wars comment. I laugh out loud every time I re-read it! Hughperkins (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If that’s the goal, then I think you’d do better to rename it to ‘u’ per this discussion, and then vociferously argue for it when they want to move it back. —Frungi (talk) 02:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This page was the best flame-fest ever! Can someone rename the page back to 'i' so we can carry on? Hughperkins (talk) 02:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Into is a compound preposition. The Title makes sense as a sentence fragment (noun phrase), because Star is an adjective.
First off, I edited a section it asked me not to, and I apologize. I ctrl+f'd to my name to reply to someone and didn't see the warning. Super sorry. Anyway..
The MOS explicitly says "The first word in a compound preposition" should be capitalized. Linguistics lesson time. Into is a compound of the prepositions In and to. http://owl.english.purd,ue.edu/owl/resource/594/02/ Compound_preposition If the space was not removed through reduction the tile would read 'Star Trek In to Darkness'. If a compound becomes one word, it would represent "the first word in a compound." The guideline was plain as day, yet casually ignored by those fighting for strict adherence to the lower case guideline. The most literal, strict, and pedantic interpretation of MOS (which I don't advocate anyway, for it is just a guideline) demands that Into be capitalized. There was no written exception for single word compound prepositions. Into is a specific type of compound called a copulative similar to words bittersweet and sleepwalk. FURTHERMORE, Into is a very special type of preposition called a directional spatial adpositions. Directional spatial adpositions can only combine with verbs that involve motion. Onward and Upward Onto point two.
I want to take a second to address the "it cant be a sentence because stars can't take treks" argument, because I think it is wrong. When into is used in a sentence, Into modifies the word Trek as trek is the verb. Remember, directional spatial adpositions can only combine with verbs that involve motion. 'Trek Into' becomes the verb phrase and then 'Trek Into Darkness' becomes the noun phrase because it describes a specific event (such as the Civil War.) Star becomes an adjective. Everyone arguing the sentence doesn't make sense is arguing that Star can only be used as a noun. But in a sentence Star is parsed as an adjective. We have a Trek Into Darkness. What type of Trek is it? A Star type Trek. It is a Trek (Into Darkness) that pertains to Stars. (See definition 17 of star in this dictionary http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/star)
They have purposely used the phrase in a way which is unfamiliar to fans. To boldly go indeed (yes I know I split the infinitive, it was an allusion.) Think of Star and Space as synonyms for Futuristic in this use scenario. Yet, I would argue that Star has always been the adjective and Trek has always been the noun. The show has always been about a Trek of the Star/Space variety, and never about Stars themselves taking Treks. The words have been used this way for a long time. The new title becomes equivalent to Futuristic Trek Into Darkness, or Trek Into Darkness in Space. Thus, Star Trek Into Darkness can be read as a sentence fragment because Star describes the type of Trek. The word Star itself has taken on a less common meaning (in Space.) Star is in the dictionary as this type of adjective, we just don't see it too often outside of the titles Star Trek and Star Wars. I personally think they did this on purpose to draw attention to the title, and get people talking about it. In a way it is reminiscent of the title The Empire Strikes Back.
In short: Into should have been capitalized from the beginning as per MOS and the compound clause. In addition, the subtitle debate is wildly irrelevant, because as a fragment the title is perfectly parse-able as a legitimate and fully grammatical noun phrase.
As for this issue as a whole, from an outside perspective, it seems as if consensus was reached a long time and two people managed to hold up a common sense fix by continually misusing the MOS (by forgetting the compound preposition clause, among other things like ignoring common sense and ignore all rules.) It wreaks of people who were cocksure of their position and the importance of policy, but unwilling to acknowledge they could be wrong or that policy itself could be wrong. I think a retrospective examination is in order as to how two stubborn people were able to hold up such a silly issue for so long by continually referring to a guideline that specifically said to watch out for exceptions. This type of thing should never happen again. It is painfully obvious that wp:commonname and wp:IAR (ignore all rules) should have taken precedence. This issue is embarrassing for everyone involved, and those fighting for a lower case i would be wise to reevaluate their conduct. Xkcdreader (talk) 07:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hear, hear. I've stated similar sentiments elsewhere. Some users need to examine their approach to this encyclopedia and their conduct towards others who act in good faith to make articles as accurate as possible. Nsign (talk) 08:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia Section
Any reason it was removed when it was well sourced and written by an established editor who is no doubt aware of the relevant policies? MisterShiney ✉ 07:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree with you in that it should be included. As dumb as the whole issue is, it spilled over into pop culture and the journalism realm. The fight is now history in the most literal sense. The correct title of the movie itself was the subject of the xkcd comic, thus mentioning the comic and the dailydot article would be appropriate. THAT SAID, it needs to be rewritten in its current form. The whole subtitle part should be removed completely, (see my section above for why the subtitle debate was irrelevant in the first place.) Secondly, the "some editors" comes off as a personal attack and could be written better. See my suggestion below. Xkcdreader (talk) 07:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The correct capitalization of the word 'Into' in the movie title became a matter of some debate on Wikipedia and was subsequently mocked by xkcd author Randall Munroe. In a comic titled 'Star Trek into Darkness' he lampooned the fact that over forty thousand words of debate had been produced on the issue. Daily Dot writer Kevin Morris noted the debate spanned over two months. Morris also recognized director J.J. Abrams' propensity for clever marketing tactics and speculated that "perhaps Abrams knew what he was getting into when he gave his film such a grammatically bizarre title." Guy Keleny, The Independent's top grammarian, compared it to David Garnett's novel Lady Into Fox (incidentally, Wikipedia use a lowercase 'i' for this title as well), noting that a quick internet search indicated that most publishers used a capital 'I'. Xkcdreader (talk) 07:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It is not notable when xkcd or any other webcomic makes fun of a topic. This section would be relevant in an article titled Wikipedia article about Star Trek Into Darkness, but that isn't this page. Prodego talk 08:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- No, but the results here are notable; see the top of this Talk page. —Frungi (talk) 08:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This isn't true. There is a page explicitly outlining when it is relevant. Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture The Independent wrote about it, and it meets the criteria. Furthermore, the Star Trek In Darkness page itself ALREADY has a Title section. My blurb written above is neutral, accurate, and sourced. I also think a sentence should be added to the paragraph already existing which says Simon Pegg described the word Trek as a verb. Xkcdreader (talk) 08:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It is not notable when xkcd or any other webcomic makes fun of a topic. This section would be relevant in an article titled Wikipedia article about Star Trek Into Darkness, but that isn't this page. Prodego talk 08:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Probably it was removed because of this from WP:SELFREF: To avoid self reference, a mention needs to reflect its importance in their overall body of work. (That’s in reference to BLPs, but I think it applies here too.) I agree that it certainly seems to have gotten enough attention to warrant a mention somewhere, but I’m neutral on whether that’s here. —Frungi (talk) 08:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- At the time I was not aware of SELFREF, and bearing that in mind perhaps my original version placed too much emphasis on the Wikipedia angle, but The Independent does make interesting grammatical observations about the title of the film which may be of relevance to the article. I certainly think there has been sufficient independent coverage to satisfy notability, but I'm happy to leave it to other editors to decide whether the article should cover it. Betty Logan (talk) 08:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, please let's not include this in the article. It has NOTHING to do with the film, its self-referential and, really - do we want to draw any more attention to this farce than there already is? Nsign (talk) 08:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The section should not be included here. It has no relation to the film whatsoever, instead it is about an argument on Wikipedia. Sure, maybe it could be included it on Wikipedia in the media or Wikipedia in culture or XKCD or something, as it is about a criticism of Wikipedia on XKCD. It is not about the film. See WP:SUBJECT. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree on one point: It's about criticism of Wikipedia in the media (using that term kinda loosely here). xkcd may have provoked said coverage, but it clearly extends beyond the comic at this point. For crying out loud, I get mentioned in multiple Google hits for simply summarizing the argument. —Frungi (talk) 10:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but, as per WP:SUBJECT, I'm sure you agree that it doesn't belong here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sure it does. Read my italicized paragraph above. There is a TITLE section in the article as we speak. It talks about the title of the movie being unconventional. Then this happens because the title is confusing and it makes the news. The XKCD and the Daily Dot and the Independent articles were about the title of the movie and how it is parsed grammatically/linguistically. The italics I wrote above organically fit in the title section of the article. I would also add a sentence after the word Conan saying Pegg stated the word Trek is a verb. The entire title section should discuss the formatting/grammar of the title. I don't think it is fair to vote no because the subject is personally embarrassing. This is no different than Anonymous being mentioned in the V for Vendetta article. The movie title alone inspired a two month 40 thousand word debate, because no one could parse the grammar? That fits the subject of the "Title" paragraph. Xkcdreader (talk) 12:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's not "personally embarrassing"! Like I said, it can go in an appropriate article, but it isn't appropriate here per WP:SUBJECT. V for Vendetta is completely different as it inspired real world events. And not wanting to accuse you of anything, but considering your username and the fact you have only been editing for a couple of days (exclusively on this page), do you have any WP:COI that you should declare? --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Did this turn into a personal attack? Is reading xkcd a conflict of interest? You are wrong to cite WP:SUBJECT because the confusing nature of the title of the movie became frontpage news. WP:SUBJECT actually supports my argument. "Articles where Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article" Wikipedia played a major roll in the confusion surrounding the title of the movie. If it had stayed self contained I would agree with you. It didn't The question of how to parse the title spread to journalism. It is perfectly valid to cite journalism discussing the title of the article in the title section. It is absolutely unequivocally on the topic of the movie title. To say internationally published confusion surrounding the title of the movie doesn't belong in the title section is ludicrous. Xkcdreader (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're clearly missing the point about "Articles where Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article". Wikipedia has had no influence whatsoever over the film or the titling thereof. If Abrams decided to change the title of the film as a direct result of our squabbling, only then would Wikipedia have "played a major role in the subject of the article". As I said, it may be appropriate on an article about Wikipedia, but as it has no real-world influence on the subject of the article, then it isn't appropriate here. Remember, XKCD and the other articles are writing about Wikipedia and the actions of Wikipedians, not about how the studio has named the film. And I think you're over-dramatising when you suggest that there has been "internationally published confusion surrounding the title of the movie". --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Let me try and frame this a little differently. If the Daily Dot and Independent had run articles about how confusing the title is to parse grammatically, there would be no debate. Everyone would be for inclusion because it directly relates to the title. But because a mention of a wkipedia debate is required to give context as to why the articles exist, it becomes controversial. The subject is the confusing grammar of the title. The context is the wikipedia debate. You can't discuss the subject without the context without being confusing. IF YOU READ the italicized paragraph above you will see the focus is on journalists discussing the grammar and marketing surrounding the title, and not wikipedia. You claim that JJ would need to change the title of the film for it to be mentioned. Go back to my analogy. Anonymous is mentioned in the V for Vendetta article. Anonymous has not influenced V for Vendetta in any way. They didn't change the movie. Articles discussing the grammar of the movie title are 100% appropriate in a section about the movie title. This topic is clearly laid out in Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture. It meets the criteria for inclusion (Have reliable sources which do not generally cover xkcd pointed out the strip?) because the topic is the grammar of the title not wikipedia itself.Xkcdreader (talk) 13:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The WP:Xkcd in popular culture describes exactly why it shouldn't be included here! Look at the "Appropriate references" where real-world events happened to the subject of the page: "Python 3 actually added this module", "the campaign received over a hundred thousand dollars from online donations" and "he actually dressed up like that". The parallel is to be drawn with the Voynich manuscript example instead, where "because the xkcd strip has had no larger influence on the manuscript itself, nor on the public reception of the manuscript". So the xkcd strip has had no larger influence on Star Trek, but it has had a larger influence on Wikipedia and the public reception of Wikipedia, hence it would be appropriate on a page about Wikipedia. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture does not say real-world events must happen. It has 3 points (read the "how to tell the difference) and says you should be able to answer yes to one or more. We can answer yes to one. You completely ignored the rest of my point. If newspapers ran articles about the confusing nature of the grammar of the title, inclusion would be a no brainer. Xkcdreader (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The situation clearly follows the pattern of the "Inappropriate references" example. And because it might meet one of the criteria of "how to tell the difference" section is not reason enough for inclusion. It doesn't say "if it meets the criteria include it", it says "if you can't, then don't". Big difference. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Look, we are talking about an unprecedented situation here. Wikipedia has a couple big policies like Ignore All The Rules, and Be Bold. I am trying to use common sense and objectively document the confusing nature of the movie title. The fact that a large portion of the debate happened on wikipedia should have little bearing. If the New York Times had a 40 thousand word debate on the subject of how to grammatically parse the movie title, we would mention it here. I am not trying to ruin the article. I am not trolling just to agitate you. I am not trying to take sides to rub it in the other ones face. I am trying to be bold and document this event in an encyclopedic fashion. There is something special about the construction of this movie title. It is incredibly confusing to a lot of people (mostly because they are not expecting Trek to be a verb and Star to be an adjective [I suppose it could be an adverb too if 'Trek Into Darkness is interpreted as a verb phrase. /tangent]) I am asking you to work with me here. Ignore the rules and think outside the box for a second. Does a one or two sentence mention of this event make the article worse? Does it hurt anything to at least include it temporarily? Does it suddenly destroy all the other wikipedia policies to make an exception? I am sure I can go dig up policy which makes just about any proposal someone comes up with. Being overly dependent on the rules is what got us into this mess in the first place. If I write a better more encyclopedic version of this paragraph will you help me, and put it in the article? Boldly go where wikipedia has not gone before. Once we can actually see it in the article, we can have another discussion about it's relevance without using old policy documents. The debate should plainly and simply be "does it improve the article?" So my proposal is this. I will rewrite the title section and post it in a new paragraph on the talk page. I ask you to include it in the article and then the community can debate if it improves the page. Refusing to engage me with this proposal will demonstrate the problem with the bureaucratic nature of wikipedia itself. There will always be some stickler for a rule that votes against inclusion just because some other page says so. The over dependence on rules is what caused this mess in the first place. Let's try something different, because that didn't work. That behavior doesn't make wikipedia a better place, it makes it a place so frustrating that quality contributors quit and leave. The enforcement of rules should never become such a burden that they chase away people that otherwise are willing to work hard to improve this site. Xkcdreader (talk) 13:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The situation clearly follows the pattern of the "Inappropriate references" example. And because it might meet one of the criteria of "how to tell the difference" section is not reason enough for inclusion. It doesn't say "if it meets the criteria include it", it says "if you can't, then don't". Big difference. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture does not say real-world events must happen. It has 3 points (read the "how to tell the difference) and says you should be able to answer yes to one or more. We can answer yes to one. You completely ignored the rest of my point. If newspapers ran articles about the confusing nature of the grammar of the title, inclusion would be a no brainer. Xkcdreader (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The WP:Xkcd in popular culture describes exactly why it shouldn't be included here! Look at the "Appropriate references" where real-world events happened to the subject of the page: "Python 3 actually added this module", "the campaign received over a hundred thousand dollars from online donations" and "he actually dressed up like that". The parallel is to be drawn with the Voynich manuscript example instead, where "because the xkcd strip has had no larger influence on the manuscript itself, nor on the public reception of the manuscript". So the xkcd strip has had no larger influence on Star Trek, but it has had a larger influence on Wikipedia and the public reception of Wikipedia, hence it would be appropriate on a page about Wikipedia. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Let me try and frame this a little differently. If the Daily Dot and Independent had run articles about how confusing the title is to parse grammatically, there would be no debate. Everyone would be for inclusion because it directly relates to the title. But because a mention of a wkipedia debate is required to give context as to why the articles exist, it becomes controversial. The subject is the confusing grammar of the title. The context is the wikipedia debate. You can't discuss the subject without the context without being confusing. IF YOU READ the italicized paragraph above you will see the focus is on journalists discussing the grammar and marketing surrounding the title, and not wikipedia. You claim that JJ would need to change the title of the film for it to be mentioned. Go back to my analogy. Anonymous is mentioned in the V for Vendetta article. Anonymous has not influenced V for Vendetta in any way. They didn't change the movie. Articles discussing the grammar of the movie title are 100% appropriate in a section about the movie title. This topic is clearly laid out in Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture. It meets the criteria for inclusion (Have reliable sources which do not generally cover xkcd pointed out the strip?) because the topic is the grammar of the title not wikipedia itself.Xkcdreader (talk) 13:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're clearly missing the point about "Articles where Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article". Wikipedia has had no influence whatsoever over the film or the titling thereof. If Abrams decided to change the title of the film as a direct result of our squabbling, only then would Wikipedia have "played a major role in the subject of the article". As I said, it may be appropriate on an article about Wikipedia, but as it has no real-world influence on the subject of the article, then it isn't appropriate here. Remember, XKCD and the other articles are writing about Wikipedia and the actions of Wikipedians, not about how the studio has named the film. And I think you're over-dramatising when you suggest that there has been "internationally published confusion surrounding the title of the movie". --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Did this turn into a personal attack? Is reading xkcd a conflict of interest? You are wrong to cite WP:SUBJECT because the confusing nature of the title of the movie became frontpage news. WP:SUBJECT actually supports my argument. "Articles where Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article" Wikipedia played a major roll in the confusion surrounding the title of the movie. If it had stayed self contained I would agree with you. It didn't The question of how to parse the title spread to journalism. It is perfectly valid to cite journalism discussing the title of the article in the title section. It is absolutely unequivocally on the topic of the movie title. To say internationally published confusion surrounding the title of the movie doesn't belong in the title section is ludicrous. Xkcdreader (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's not "personally embarrassing"! Like I said, it can go in an appropriate article, but it isn't appropriate here per WP:SUBJECT. V for Vendetta is completely different as it inspired real world events. And not wanting to accuse you of anything, but considering your username and the fact you have only been editing for a couple of days (exclusively on this page), do you have any WP:COI that you should declare? --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sure it does. Read my italicized paragraph above. There is a TITLE section in the article as we speak. It talks about the title of the movie being unconventional. Then this happens because the title is confusing and it makes the news. The XKCD and the Daily Dot and the Independent articles were about the title of the movie and how it is parsed grammatically/linguistically. The italics I wrote above organically fit in the title section of the article. I would also add a sentence after the word Conan saying Pegg stated the word Trek is a verb. The entire title section should discuss the formatting/grammar of the title. I don't think it is fair to vote no because the subject is personally embarrassing. This is no different than Anonymous being mentioned in the V for Vendetta article. The movie title alone inspired a two month 40 thousand word debate, because no one could parse the grammar? That fits the subject of the "Title" paragraph. Xkcdreader (talk) 12:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but, as per WP:SUBJECT, I'm sure you agree that it doesn't belong here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree on one point: It's about criticism of Wikipedia in the media (using that term kinda loosely here). xkcd may have provoked said coverage, but it clearly extends beyond the comic at this point. For crying out loud, I get mentioned in multiple Google hits for simply summarizing the argument. —Frungi (talk) 10:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The section should not be included here. It has no relation to the film whatsoever, instead it is about an argument on Wikipedia. Sure, maybe it could be included it on Wikipedia in the media or Wikipedia in culture or XKCD or something, as it is about a criticism of Wikipedia on XKCD. It is not about the film. See WP:SUBJECT. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it would make the article worse, as it would add WP:UNDUE weight to the topic, as described in WP:SUBJECT. As I keep saying, it's appropriate on a page about Wikipedia, not on one about a Star Trek film. Go add it there. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think I probably agree with Rob on this, it should be mentioned somewhere, but probably not in this article. douts (talk) 14:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The spirit of wikipedia is be bold. Use common sense. Ignore the rules. One of the five pillars is wikipedia does not have firm rules. Yet you keep citing rule after rule to prevent participation. I don't know how else to say this. The unconventional and confusing grammar of the movie title should be mentioned in the title section of the movie's page. As I have tried and failed to explain, the inclusion has nothing to do with wikipedia. It addresses the grammatical structure of the title. It doesn't belong on a page about wikipedia because it isn't about wikipedia, it is about the movie title. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Being bold and ignoring the rules are all well and good if it improves Wikipedia, but not if it doesn't. You could argue that vandalism is being bold and ignoring the rules, but it isn't exactly helpful! I don't mean to be WP:BITEY, but as I've tried to demonstrate, following the guidelines (not "rules") shows us how to appropriately add this information to Wikipedia. I'm not saying that it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, it just doesn't belong here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- And as I keep saying (which it feels is falling on deaf ears because it is continually ignored) is that it DOES belong here because it directly related to the article topic. "Confusion has arisen as to how the movie title should be grammatically interpreted" followed by a newspaper citation. Confusion about the movie title is newsworthy and significant. It makes the article better to analyze the grammatical interpretation of the title. Comparing documentation of the titles confusing nature to vandalism is a straw man and unappreciated. I feel as if you have a conflict of interest in this discussion because you were involved in the initial debate. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Where exactly has this "confusion" arisen? And be careful of accusing me of WP:COI, when you have a WP:SPA and a username reminiscent of the webcomic that broke this story. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Me making a new user account for this conversation is irrelevant. Address my argument and stop with the personal attacks. Just because wikipedia is one of the places where the conversation happened does not mean the title is not confusing. You were directly involved in the initial discussion. You would have motive for suppressing mention of the title debate. True or false, debate has arisen as to how one interprets the title? If the answer is true it should be included in the movies title section, the part of the article that discusses the movie title Xkcdreader (talk) 14:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I repeat - Where exactly has this "confusion" arisen? In the real world or on Wikipedia? Are people running around the streets saying "I'm so confused over the new title of the Star Trek movie" or are the news reports only commenting on the fact that we had an argument here as to how best to apply the guidelines/MoS? And I have no "motive" to suppress anything. I've not even suggested we do - as I've said, by all means include it in a page about Wikipedia (as that's what the articles are about) - just that it is inappropriate here as per every guideline I can find. Incidentally - you mention that you've created "a new user account for this conversation". I trust you've read WP:MULTIPLE. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I also agree with Rob - yes the overriding rule is to “use common sense," "be bold," and "ignore the rules" - but there are also rules that shouldn't be ignored just for the sake of being bold. Common sense isn't always right, and one person's common sense (to include a reference to the title's confusing nature) may be different than another’s (to not include that reference here). That's why it's good to have a discussion about whether it makes sense or not. So let’s have that discussion without saying that someone who disagrees with your opinion is doing so just because they're ardently sticking to the rules without thought. Jonahx (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- To your point about including the paragraph - I do think it's WP:UNDUE off WP:SUBJECT and self-referential. The news organizations were not covering the fact that the title is "difficult to parse" -it seems pretty straightforward for the general public - they were covering the fact that people on Wikipedia were having a protracted discussion about it. And they only covered that when it was brought to light by a popular web-comic. My sense is that the writers and editors of the article were printing them much less due to the grammatical interestingness of the title, and much more due to the fact that it's interesting journalism to document the perceived fanaticism of both Star Trek enthusiasts and Wikipedia enthusiasts. The "Title" section in this article is also not about the grammar of the title - it's about the title's place among other Star Trek movies - and its origin. The discussion did gain wider audience and became newsworthy - so of course it would be proper to include your paragraph on another page - but to do so on this page, I think, vastly overweighs the importance of this discussion to pretty much everybody, and almost certainly everybody coming to the page looking for information about the movie. If the point really is not about the Wikipedia discussion and really because you think the title is grammatically confusing - the most that is warranted would be something like "The title's grammatical construction has been the subject of debate (with references)," but personally I think even that is overstating it since the only place the debate has occurred is here (and when this debate has been covered in other outlets), and would require that sentence to be added to hundreds and thousands of movies and works with grammatically ambiguous titles. Jonahx (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that xkcd broke the story is completely irrelevant. The Daily Dot article covers the full controversy including the talking points. Virtual events can be documented, they do not need to occur in the streets. I don't think discussing the unprecedented use of Trek as a verb (how old is this series, how often have they explicitly done this) adds unnecessary weight to the article. I think discussing the unique title as compared to every other entry in the series very much belongs on this wikipedia page. JJ Abrams himself is already directly quoted in the article, discussing the title's unique nature. I think you are vastly overestimating wikipedia's uniqueness if you think this the only pace where the subtitle/sentence and trek/verb debate has occurred. Xkcdreader (talk) 15:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot article covers the topic in relation to Wikipedia and Wikipedians, nothing else. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This conversation was EVERYWHERE back in September. Here is a news article from Sep 10th. http://www.blastr.com/2012/09/star-trek-2-gets-an-offic.php The fact that the debate blew to such big proportions on wikipedia is IRRELEVANT. If it had happened on reddit, or cnn, or in time square itself it would be equally newsworthy. The title is confusing. It has been covered by countless news organizations. Xkcdreader (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot article covers the topic in relation to Wikipedia and Wikipedians, nothing else. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that xkcd broke the story is completely irrelevant. The Daily Dot article covers the full controversy including the talking points. Virtual events can be documented, they do not need to occur in the streets. I don't think discussing the unprecedented use of Trek as a verb (how old is this series, how often have they explicitly done this) adds unnecessary weight to the article. I think discussing the unique title as compared to every other entry in the series very much belongs on this wikipedia page. JJ Abrams himself is already directly quoted in the article, discussing the title's unique nature. I think you are vastly overestimating wikipedia's uniqueness if you think this the only pace where the subtitle/sentence and trek/verb debate has occurred. Xkcdreader (talk) 15:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- To your point about including the paragraph - I do think it's WP:UNDUE off WP:SUBJECT and self-referential. The news organizations were not covering the fact that the title is "difficult to parse" -it seems pretty straightforward for the general public - they were covering the fact that people on Wikipedia were having a protracted discussion about it. And they only covered that when it was brought to light by a popular web-comic. My sense is that the writers and editors of the article were printing them much less due to the grammatical interestingness of the title, and much more due to the fact that it's interesting journalism to document the perceived fanaticism of both Star Trek enthusiasts and Wikipedia enthusiasts. The "Title" section in this article is also not about the grammar of the title - it's about the title's place among other Star Trek movies - and its origin. The discussion did gain wider audience and became newsworthy - so of course it would be proper to include your paragraph on another page - but to do so on this page, I think, vastly overweighs the importance of this discussion to pretty much everybody, and almost certainly everybody coming to the page looking for information about the movie. If the point really is not about the Wikipedia discussion and really because you think the title is grammatically confusing - the most that is warranted would be something like "The title's grammatical construction has been the subject of debate (with references)," but personally I think even that is overstating it since the only place the debate has occurred is here (and when this debate has been covered in other outlets), and would require that sentence to be added to hundreds and thousands of movies and works with grammatically ambiguous titles. Jonahx (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I also agree with Rob - yes the overriding rule is to “use common sense," "be bold," and "ignore the rules" - but there are also rules that shouldn't be ignored just for the sake of being bold. Common sense isn't always right, and one person's common sense (to include a reference to the title's confusing nature) may be different than another’s (to not include that reference here). That's why it's good to have a discussion about whether it makes sense or not. So let’s have that discussion without saying that someone who disagrees with your opinion is doing so just because they're ardently sticking to the rules without thought. Jonahx (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Xkcdreader, I see what you're saying but the debate was really about Wikipedia and its adherence to the MOS and when to make exceptions or follow other policies such as CommonName etc. No one disagreed that the movie title title IS Star Trek Into Darkness. The disagreement concerned how Wikipedia chose to style it - there were no debates anywhere else in the media (as far as I know) prior to this farrago about the film title. This was a Wikipedia issue and the problem originated on this talk page. It wasn't an existing issue with the title that we just picked up on. We should not therefore self-reference. Do we add something to every article where there's been a style dispute saying that Wikipedia editors argued about it? No, and nor should we for this article. And - my personal opinion - I think its better for Wikipedia if we try and limit how much light we shine on this episode. There's been enough reputational damage as it is. Nsign (talk) 15:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- First off, I don't have multiple accounts, I have a new account. Enough with the rule citations, PLEASE. How many times can I ask that we address the topic and not my name? Personally I think any regular wikipedia editor will be biased against inclusion. The same way that an enron employee would be against inclusion of negative press to a stock market fraud page. Nsign confirms my belief by saying that it should be concealed to prevent further damage to wikipedia's reputation. As a non-editor who decided to chime in for once, this is terrible. As such, I feel the only people that can be objective are fresh eyes. I am not a part of your culture, I can be more objective than you. I have seen this same conversation all over the internet. Trek forums, reddit, movie forums, twitter etc etc. Nowhere did it get as out of hand as wikipedia. The title is generally confusing. Is it meant to be a sentence or is In Darkness a subtitle? (hint: I believe it is both) Is Trek a verb or a noun? (hint: probably more a verb than noun) These are common questions that exist outside wikipedia. Wikipeda is the best example to cite when discussing the debate, because it went the furthest here. There were more eyes and more participants than dedicated star trek forums. It didn't get so out of hand that at least three newspapers (that I know of) covered the topic. The fact that Simon Pegg tweeted that trek is now a verb definitively proves my point. The official marketing campaign is using trek as a verb. Such a change as compared to prior use should be covered by an encyclopedia. The fact that its use as a verb caused mass confusion (and it is completely irrelevant WHERE it happened, it happened.) created a two month conversation that still has not ended, is testament to the fact that this isnt some minor thing that should be brushed under the rug. The use of Trek as a verb and the general confusion it caused should be documented pubicly. Period. Xkcdreader (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I repeat - Where exactly has this "confusion" arisen? In the real world or on Wikipedia? Are people running around the streets saying "I'm so confused over the new title of the Star Trek movie" or are the news reports only commenting on the fact that we had an argument here as to how best to apply the guidelines/MoS? And I have no "motive" to suppress anything. I've not even suggested we do - as I've said, by all means include it in a page about Wikipedia (as that's what the articles are about) - just that it is inappropriate here as per every guideline I can find. Incidentally - you mention that you've created "a new user account for this conversation". I trust you've read WP:MULTIPLE. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Me making a new user account for this conversation is irrelevant. Address my argument and stop with the personal attacks. Just because wikipedia is one of the places where the conversation happened does not mean the title is not confusing. You were directly involved in the initial discussion. You would have motive for suppressing mention of the title debate. True or false, debate has arisen as to how one interprets the title? If the answer is true it should be included in the movies title section, the part of the article that discusses the movie title Xkcdreader (talk) 14:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Where exactly has this "confusion" arisen? And be careful of accusing me of WP:COI, when you have a WP:SPA and a username reminiscent of the webcomic that broke this story. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- And as I keep saying (which it feels is falling on deaf ears because it is continually ignored) is that it DOES belong here because it directly related to the article topic. "Confusion has arisen as to how the movie title should be grammatically interpreted" followed by a newspaper citation. Confusion about the movie title is newsworthy and significant. It makes the article better to analyze the grammatical interpretation of the title. Comparing documentation of the titles confusing nature to vandalism is a straw man and unappreciated. I feel as if you have a conflict of interest in this discussion because you were involved in the initial debate. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Being bold and ignoring the rules are all well and good if it improves Wikipedia, but not if it doesn't. You could argue that vandalism is being bold and ignoring the rules, but it isn't exactly helpful! I don't mean to be WP:BITEY, but as I've tried to demonstrate, following the guidelines (not "rules") shows us how to appropriately add this information to Wikipedia. I'm not saying that it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, it just doesn't belong here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The spirit of wikipedia is be bold. Use common sense. Ignore the rules. One of the five pillars is wikipedia does not have firm rules. Yet you keep citing rule after rule to prevent participation. I don't know how else to say this. The unconventional and confusing grammar of the movie title should be mentioned in the title section of the movie's page. As I have tried and failed to explain, the inclusion has nothing to do with wikipedia. It addresses the grammatical structure of the title. It doesn't belong on a page about wikipedia because it isn't about wikipedia, it is about the movie title. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
The stuff about Wikipedia is a distraction from the article. I don't see that the title has caused widespread confusion or debate to the point where it is notable. Xkcdreader, if you can cite reliable sources evidencing a more widespread controversy about the title, I encourage you to do so. But so far, I think the focus in the news has been on Wikipedia's own dysfunction and inability to resolve something that seems trivial. I was looking at Criticism of Wikipedia#Criticism of the community and thought something might be developed there where it could be more appropriate. Fletcher (talk) 15:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It only got media attention once it blew up here (and even then, its not exactly on the front pages, we're talking a handful of online articles). Before that it was limited to forums and the twittersphere. The controversy is of Wiki's own making and we should not self reference a Wikipedia dispute in an article intended to inform people about the FILM. Nsign (talk) 15:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm happy to see I have a new fight to watch for a few days :-D Hughperkins (talk) 15:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- They'll be writing articles about this dispute soon at this rate. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- To add something relevant to the current discussion, perhaps the question boils down to: would someone who comes to the article about Star Trek Into Darkness potentially be interested in the Talk Page controversy? Would a Star Trek fan who comes to the article about Star Trek into Darkness potentially be interested in the Talk Page controversy? Hughperkins (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Simply, I don't think someone would come to this page for this information per WP:UNDUE. However, someone interested in Wikipedia controversies would want to find it on a page relevant to that. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Technically, WP:UNDUE states that each article or page fairly represents all viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of the viewpoints, thus is not I think relevant to whether to reference the controversy. Hughperkins (talk) 16:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed - I'm also a new user - (I've maybe put minor edits on two or three pages and never added to a talk page) So let's not say that there's some movement by wikieditors to suppress this, and all the fresh eyes think it's a good idea. Again, the debate about the wiki title is interesting and newsworthy, the debate about Star Trek titles and their grammatical nuances are interesting, and what this movie's title adds to that debate is interesting. I just don't think the proper place for it is on the Wikipedia Page for the film. Eager to please Hugh :) Jonahx (talk) 15:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Simply, I don't think someone would come to this page for this information per WP:UNDUE. However, someone interested in Wikipedia controversies would want to find it on a page relevant to that. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- To add something relevant to the current discussion, perhaps the question boils down to: would someone who comes to the article about Star Trek Into Darkness potentially be interested in the Talk Page controversy? Would a Star Trek fan who comes to the article about Star Trek into Darkness potentially be interested in the Talk Page controversy? Hughperkins (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- They'll be writing articles about this dispute soon at this rate. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm happy to see I have a new fight to watch for a few days :-D Hughperkins (talk) 15:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- We can't guess how much irrelevant minutiae the average movie fan would be interested in, and that's really who the article should be aimed at, not Star Trek fans. They've got their own sites. The article should be about the film, not us having a barney over a capital letter.Nsign (talk) 15:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Would Star Trek fans be interested in the fact that trek is being used as a verb for the first time, and that into darkness is apparently not a subtitle. JJ himself commented on the unprecedented of the topic. Simon Pegg came out and spoke on the verbness. I will list other organizations that covered the verbification of the word Trek. http://www.blastr.com/2012/09/star-trek-2-gets-an-offic.php Ctrl+f this deadline page, there is a noun verb debate dated september 10th. http://www.deadline.com/2012/09/paramount-hangs-a-title-star-trek-into-darkness-is-next-enterprise-voyage/ Here are more sources http://www.movieweb.com/news/star-trek-into-darkness-is-rumored-to-be-the-title-of-j-j-abrams-sequel http://www.grammarly.com/answers/questions/10287-star-trek-into-darkness-phrasal-verb/ http://www.slashfilm.com/zachary-quinto-and-karl-urban-talk-star-trek-2-now-officially-titled-star-trek-into-darkness/ The grammar of the title was wildly discussed outside of wikipedia, it just got the most attention here. IF the community chooses to address the uniquness of the title, it should also address the confusion it caused. If it is mentioned, it should include the use of the movie title in a sentence in marketing material. If it addresses the confusion it caused it needs to mention wikipedia. If it mentions wikipeida common sense dictates it would also mention the xkcd comic which broke the story. To pretend to ignore the confusion that trek as a verb caused just because it partially happened on wikipedia is dishonest. Wikipedia isn't some sacred cow above being referenced in a story. Whether the editors want to admit it or not Trek being a verb is a huge deal and the fact that it spawned this debate is my evidence. Can anyone cite a single movie title that has been more controversial as to its grammatical interpretation? I feel like the existence of the debate on wikipedia is clouding everyone's judgement. As far as star trek goes, the title change is historical. If it wasn't such a big change this event never would have happened. Just because some of the discussion happened on wikipedia doesnt mean we should whitewash its existence. I personally think that non trek/wikipedia fans would find it very interesting to hear that Trek is being used as a verb for the first time, and all the controversy such use brought the internet. If random youtube stars get pages, this should get a mention.Xkcdreader (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think it's sufficiently covered as it is, but even if we do add something about the confusion over the noun/verb/subtitle/whatever, it would only be relevant to mention the Wikipedia debate on this page if the debate had caused the problem. As you state, this goes back to September, so this pre-dates the Wikipedia issue, and thus isn't really relevant. --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You think it is sufficiently covered? How many times does the word verb appear in the Star Trek Into Darkness article? Xkcdreader (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I mean I think we've covered the titling of the film sufficiently. --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You think it is sufficiently covered? How many times does the word verb appear in the Star Trek Into Darkness article? Xkcdreader (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The debate wasn't really about whether it was a verb phrase or not (although it did come up). It was about whether or not to capitalise "Into" as per what every other source was doing and which policies / guidelines of Wikipedia supported or did not support that move.
- I'm having an argument about an argument. Someone please - shoot me in the head. Nsign (talk)
- The capital I debate was derived from the debate over whether it was a subtitle or a sentence fragment (in this case a noun phrase). The use of Trek as a verb was the core of the contention. I can even cite this one, it was written by you http://www.grammarly.com/answers/questions/10287-star-trek-into-darkness-phrasal-verb/ Xkcdreader (talk)
- No, its the other way around. I changed it to "Into", someone changed it back, I questioned it here and it went from there. The phrasal verb stuff came up later while we discussed whether it could be capitalised as part of a phrasal verb. This debate was all about capitalisation - the subtitle/not subtitle stuff came up to either support or oppose it. Nsign (talk) 16:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You can't use that as a WP:RS - that isn't independent coverage. --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Xkcdreader, you might consider that currently there are at least 3 people who feel that this should not be included in the film article, and only you arguing that it should be, so the consensus would appear to be that it should not be. Continuing to argue the point only reinforces the current consensus I think. I think if you want to change consensus, your best action might be to wait for other people to weigh in on the discussion. As for me, I don't have any strong opinion one way or the other, though I confess that my personal bias is I'm an Xkcd fan, and had never heard of the film until yesterday :-D Hughperkins (talk) 16:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Really........? We're arguing about this? If half of the energy put into this debate was put into finding a cure for cancer, we'd be well on our way. 138.162.8.57 (talk) 16:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more. We've already told User:Xkcdreader that the content isn't suitable here, but could be added elsewhere, but he won't seem to accept this. --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Really........? We're arguing about this? If half of the energy put into this debate was put into finding a cure for cancer, we'd be well on our way. 138.162.8.57 (talk) 16:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The capital I debate was derived from the debate over whether it was a subtitle or a sentence fragment (in this case a noun phrase). The use of Trek as a verb was the core of the contention. I can even cite this one, it was written by you http://www.grammarly.com/answers/questions/10287-star-trek-into-darkness-phrasal-verb/ Xkcdreader (talk)
- Thank you for the articles! They give us a lot to go on. The blastr article is the only one that seems to me to specifically talk about the grammar of the title, which implys a broader debate not started by this discussion (exactly how broad is not clear). The others are less useful. One is an ask.com-esque question that likely came about because of this discussion (see who posted it? lol) The other articles mention there is hype about the title, but not because it's grammatically interesting. The slashfilm says there is confusion and speculation about the title, but it seems to be referencing the meaning of the title -not the grammar - not to mention being more of a hype-inducing phrase than one reporting actual conditions. The reason people are pushing back against including your paragraph is not because we're trying to "protect Wikipedia." People are saying that the reason this received so much coverage is not because there is so much confusion about the title - it's because it became a heated discussion on Wikipedia, which is why it would be inappropriate to reference that discussion on this page. There's another question about whether the possible change of Star Trek to a verb as possibly implied by the title is newsworthy enough to include here or on another page - I guess that's up for discussion. It certainly is important for a certain number of people, and Xkcdreader believes it is. I don't really know - perhaps it's more appropriate on anotther Star Trek page where implied title over time verbiness can be discussed? (Did I really just write that?) Otherwise I think it's sufficent to say that it diverges from other Star Trek movie naming conventions as is already done. Jonahx (talk) 16:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- And I said, I think people who participated in the initial debate/are regular wikipedia editors will be biased against inclusion. I can see why wikipedia regulars would want to hide this. Nsign flat out said it. Fresh eyes from outside the wikipedia realm are necessary. @Jonahx, Like I said I am willing to write a neutral evaluation of the commotion the title caused across the interwebs, I just need some time. Xkcdreader (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Then write it on a page about Wikipedia, not here. It simply isn't notable in relation to this topic, although it might be in relation to controversies about Wikipedia. --Rob Sinden (talk) 17:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Please stop repeating the same thing over and over. You are an incredibly frustrating person to work with. It is not your decision to make alone. You are not in charge. You have already voiced your opinion. If I write about the title of the movie, I will make sure it is appropriate for this article. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Then write it on a page about Wikipedia, not here. It simply isn't notable in relation to this topic, although it might be in relation to controversies about Wikipedia. --Rob Sinden (talk) 17:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- And I said, I think people who participated in the initial debate/are regular wikipedia editors will be biased against inclusion. I can see why wikipedia regulars would want to hide this. Nsign flat out said it. Fresh eyes from outside the wikipedia realm are necessary. @Jonahx, Like I said I am willing to write a neutral evaluation of the commotion the title caused across the interwebs, I just need some time. Xkcdreader (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
WOW! I wasn't expecting this when I made the original post! Personally, I believe it should in the least get a mention. It is relevant to the Subject at hand (Star Trek Into Darkness), it is verified by an independent (no pun intended) reliable source (The Independent). The secondary user submitted/blogs should not be used (hardly relevant considering they are mocking in nature), where as The Independent article is professional in it's nature and is highlighting the grammatical side of things. Whether or not it is suitable content for it's own section remains to be seen. In the very least though it should be highlighted in the title section, having been mentioned in a mainstream publication. MisterShiney ✉ 17:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Extra comment: WP:SUBJECT would not apply. We are saying "The Independent said XYZ about the Wikipedia discussion re the grammar of the title" (backed up with a source) and not "There was a long discussion on the Wikipedia talk page" (referencing the talk page). MisterShiney ✉ 18:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think as long as whatever is added is about the grammatical issues rather than the discussions had back here I cant see any problems with it. (Which I think is what Rob was getting at). douts (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- WP:SUBJECT does apply: "...articles are about their subjects; they are not about the articles themselves (even if an article itself becomes famous, it should not report this about itself". I do think, concurring with douts, mention could be made about the grammatical oddity of the title, using the sourced article. But it should not be a jumping off point to start talking about Wikipedia. Fletcher (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I agree the subject should stick to the grammatical issue, and ignore the I|i. The case of the i has nothing to do with the article. I however disagree that mention of wikipedia should be avoided. The grammatical issue causes confusion and a comic was made concerning the resulting confusion and debate. Wikipedia is inherently intertwined in the issue now. A common colloquial term used to describe this is the "poster child." In talking about the confusion, wikipedia is going to come up in passing and there is nothing wrong with that. As I said before, bringing up Wikipedia will almost be required to paint a context around some quotes. Xkcdreader (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 19:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- WP:SUBJECT absolutely would apply, and reading through WP:SUBJECT suggests it was written exactly for this type of situation. This article is about a movie. The Independent article was not discussing the movie but rather a Wikipedia article, and WP:SUBJECT is pretty clear on what means; the incident had nothing to do with the actual movie. - SudoGhost 19:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Let me try and explain my thoughts. Currently we are leaning towards including a line that says something akin to "A grammatical peculiarity in the title of the movie resulted when it was revealed that no punctuation would divide the series and episode titles, and that the Paramount marketing team was using the word Trek as a verb and Star as an adjective. This led to confusion as to the interpretation yada yada yada." Clearly I would word and source it better, but you get the point. A better sentence would include WHERE the confusion arose. We could go find less well documented forums discussing the same topic, but in this specific case, the wikipedia talk page IS the forefront of the issue. This is where the debate broke for all of the internet. It could have happened anywhere but it happened here. Everyone is now funneling here from other places (such as xkcd, daily dot to have the conversation here.) If the confusion arose in an irc chatroom we would cite that chatroom as the source. So it comes down to "what is a more encyclopedic sentence?" 'This led to confusion' or 'This led to confusion on wikipedia.' (again written in more professional language.) I can tell you right now I think the latter is a more accurate, specific sentence, and does not add any extra weight/length or unnecessary garbage to the paragraph. It is merely disclosing that the confusion was discussed is a certain place that in this instance, happened to be wikipedia. To me this is where ignore all rules and common sense come into play. We have WP:SUBJECT for this purpose, but IN THIS CASE the information we are trying to convey becomes less accurate and somewhat dishonest. It is kind of stupid to say "the irregular title led to confusion" and then cite some lesser source as oppose to the journalism that has resulted from the debate itself. I hope I am articulating why I think avoiding the mention of wikipedia makes the sentence MORE of a weasel sentence or cop out (because .. WHERE did the debate takeplace? The answer adds to the topic. If people want more information, they will know where to look.) It doesn't make sense to me to provide less information to comply with a rule, when providing more information makes the statement more powerful and accurate. Am I explaining my self clearly? Xkcdreader (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Here's where I'm confused...why do you think WP:SUBJECT shouldn't apply here, since it's entire purpose is specifically for incidents exactly like this? There's nothing different about this incident, except for the fact that it's currently happening. The fact that Wikipedia is a bit WP:LAME sometimes should perhaps go somewhere, but not in an article about a movie, since the subject of The Independent was Wikipedia itself, not the movie. - SudoGhost 19:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- OK so I am not wording it clearly. Let me try and come up with another way to explain it. I am not trying to write a big paragraph about the wikipedia issue. I just think the context of how the situation arose is necessary to clearly explain the subject. The subject of the Independent article does not matter to me, IF the article itself discusses the grammatical issue (the daily dot does a better job but whatever.) In the meantime, food for thought. - If this debate broke out on foxnews.com, and cnn covered the event, would there be any problem citing where it happened? Xkcdreader (talk) 20:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If foxnews.com couldn't get itself straight, then that would be an issue with foxnews.com, and since the subject of the theoretical CNN article would be foxnews.com's issue, would be appropriate at the Fox News Channel article, not at an article about a movie. - SudoGhost 20:05, 1 February
- ok maybe I can explain it this way, maybe not. The xkcd comic discusses the title of the movie and the wikipedia debate. The daily dot article discusses the interpretation of the title of the movie and the wikipedia debate. If I am writing about the title of the movie these are going to be some of my sources. I am not trying to cover the debate as an event, but it comes up when covering the topic of the debate. The debate was about the structure of the sentence, and the paragraph is about the structure of the sentence. If all the sources analyze the wikipedia debate, what is the purpose of selectively leaving out some of the information just to comply with the rule? Is that any clearer? I am having trouble explaining that the topic of the debate itself is the same thing as the topic of the paragraph. So sources covering the debate will be used to illustrate the topic which itself is appropriate for the article. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If I'm understanding you right, I dont see a problem with it myself, but why dont you draft what you plan on adding and post it here first, then we can see exactly what your suggesting? douts (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ok I am glad we are good so far. Now to take it one step further. It seems people are ok having a sentence explaining there is controversy surrounding the interpretation of the title. If a thesis is "controversy erupted concerning the grammatical structure of the title" can the source cited for this statement be the xkcd comic itself, or the daily dot article? The xkcd comic is documenting the controversy. The comic is fact. Debate over the title did erupt, because it IS confusing. The forty thousand words with no clear answer is PROOF itself that the title is confusing. The Daily Dot article articulates that the topic is confusing, but in doing so mentions the wikipedia debate. The fact that debate did occurred on wikipedia is irrelevant, but there is no pressing NEED to leave it out. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I understand what you're trying to say, but to make a small correction: the xkcd comic discusses the title of the article, and the daily dot article discusses the article. The movie itself happens to be the subject of that article, and that's why WP:SUBJECT very clearly and specifically addresses this; this article is about the movie, the article is not about reaction to or discussion about the article, therefore it's inappropriate to turn this article into commentary about the article itself. - SudoGhost 20:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I understand the desire not to be self referential. I think the conflict arises because the title was confusing but the PRIME example of the confusion is the wikipedia debate. There are other examples but they are nowhere near as well documented or cohesively organized. Noen of the other confusion debates had comics written about them. Personally, it feels as if wikipedia editors are being a little egotistical and saying "this is our debate, we started it" when reality it is just they carried it on way too long. It would be possible to cover the confusion without mentioning wikipedia, but it would be BEST to cover the model example of the confusion and mention the largest documented conversation about the confusion we have, which is the wikipedia debate. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This article is about a movie. Everything, and I mean everything you've mentioned as far as sources and such have been about an article; not the movie. Therefore, WP:SUBJECT makes it very clear that what you're trying to put into the article absolutely does not belong on the article. There may be another article where this would be appropriate, but this article isn't it. It doesn't matter that the article just happens to be about the movie, every article is about something, and that's exactly why we have WP:SUBJECT, and you still haven't explained why you feel this would be some special exception when it is exactly the kind of thing that WP:SUBJECT covers, and is no different than any other thing that would be covered by the MoS in that regard. To clarify what you've been saying: "The xkcd comic is documenting the controversy." About the article. Not the movie. This is the exact reason why WP:SUBJECT exists, to distinguish between the subject and the article itself. When sources discuss the article, it is irrelevant to the subject and does not belong in an article about the subject itself, because the article is not the subject of the article, that is a self-reference. - SudoGhost 20:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what the comic is about. It is completely irrelevant that the topic is wikipedia. The comic does prove that controversy over the grammatical structure of the title exists. Xkcdreader (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's not how Wikipedia works, I'm afraid. If we could use that line of logic, WP:SUBJECT wouldn't exist, as it would have no purpose. It absolutely matters what the comic and the sources are about; that's the entire point. The controversy exists on the Wikipedia article. The sources are about the Wikipedia article. There is no controversy outside of the Wikipedia article. Without mentioning the Wikipedia article there is no controversy, because the controvery is the Wikipedia article, and with no controversy there's nothing to mention in the article. So either way, there's no justification for adding such content to the article. - SudoGhost 21:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what the comic is about. It is completely irrelevant that the topic is wikipedia. The comic does prove that controversy over the grammatical structure of the title exists. Xkcdreader (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This article is about a movie. Everything, and I mean everything you've mentioned as far as sources and such have been about an article; not the movie. Therefore, WP:SUBJECT makes it very clear that what you're trying to put into the article absolutely does not belong on the article. There may be another article where this would be appropriate, but this article isn't it. It doesn't matter that the article just happens to be about the movie, every article is about something, and that's exactly why we have WP:SUBJECT, and you still haven't explained why you feel this would be some special exception when it is exactly the kind of thing that WP:SUBJECT covers, and is no different than any other thing that would be covered by the MoS in that regard. To clarify what you've been saying: "The xkcd comic is documenting the controversy." About the article. Not the movie. This is the exact reason why WP:SUBJECT exists, to distinguish between the subject and the article itself. When sources discuss the article, it is irrelevant to the subject and does not belong in an article about the subject itself, because the article is not the subject of the article, that is a self-reference. - SudoGhost 20:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I understand the desire not to be self referential. I think the conflict arises because the title was confusing but the PRIME example of the confusion is the wikipedia debate. There are other examples but they are nowhere near as well documented or cohesively organized. Noen of the other confusion debates had comics written about them. Personally, it feels as if wikipedia editors are being a little egotistical and saying "this is our debate, we started it" when reality it is just they carried it on way too long. It would be possible to cover the confusion without mentioning wikipedia, but it would be BEST to cover the model example of the confusion and mention the largest documented conversation about the confusion we have, which is the wikipedia debate. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If I'm understanding you right, I dont see a problem with it myself, but why dont you draft what you plan on adding and post it here first, then we can see exactly what your suggesting? douts (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- ok maybe I can explain it this way, maybe not. The xkcd comic discusses the title of the movie and the wikipedia debate. The daily dot article discusses the interpretation of the title of the movie and the wikipedia debate. If I am writing about the title of the movie these are going to be some of my sources. I am not trying to cover the debate as an event, but it comes up when covering the topic of the debate. The debate was about the structure of the sentence, and the paragraph is about the structure of the sentence. If all the sources analyze the wikipedia debate, what is the purpose of selectively leaving out some of the information just to comply with the rule? Is that any clearer? I am having trouble explaining that the topic of the debate itself is the same thing as the topic of the paragraph. So sources covering the debate will be used to illustrate the topic which itself is appropriate for the article. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- If foxnews.com couldn't get itself straight, then that would be an issue with foxnews.com, and since the subject of the theoretical CNN article would be foxnews.com's issue, would be appropriate at the Fox News Channel article, not at an article about a movie. - SudoGhost 20:05, 1 February
- OK so I am not wording it clearly. Let me try and come up with another way to explain it. I am not trying to write a big paragraph about the wikipedia issue. I just think the context of how the situation arose is necessary to clearly explain the subject. The subject of the Independent article does not matter to me, IF the article itself discusses the grammatical issue (the daily dot does a better job but whatever.) In the meantime, food for thought. - If this debate broke out on foxnews.com, and cnn covered the event, would there be any problem citing where it happened? Xkcdreader (talk) 20:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I agree the subject should stick to the grammatical issue, and ignore the I|i. The case of the i has nothing to do with the article. I however disagree that mention of wikipedia should be avoided. The grammatical issue causes confusion and a comic was made concerning the resulting confusion and debate. Wikipedia is inherently intertwined in the issue now. A common colloquial term used to describe this is the "poster child." In talking about the confusion, wikipedia is going to come up in passing and there is nothing wrong with that. As I said before, bringing up Wikipedia will almost be required to paint a context around some quotes. Xkcdreader (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 19:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone has a problem with using a reference to the Wikipedia debate when talking about the "confusion" over the title. The question is - would people be talking about the title at all if it weren't for the Wikipedia discussion, because if not then we're being self-referential (debate on Wikipedia but nowhere else -> news outlets ostensibly cover grammar of title, but only because of Wikipedia debate -> Wikipedia includes cover of grammar that only appeared because of Wikipedia debate) does that make sense? There is some evidence that a debate over the title occurred before the Wikipedia debate i.e. in this article: http://www.blastr.com/2012/09/star-trek-2-gets-an-offic.php but I don't know if it's enough of an issue that it should be cited in the Title section more than what's already there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.8.73 (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ctrl+f this page and type in 'verb' sans quotes. http://www.deadline.com/2012/09/paramount-hangs-a-title-star-trek-into-darkness-is-next-enterprise-voyage/ You will see that on September 10th at 10:39am people were already discussing the punctuation and noun/verbiness of the structure. I believe that is early enough to prove the confusion erupted organically and independently of wikipeida. People were talking about this RIGHT AWAY. It discussion just culminated here, because it was not resolved until the comic came out. That should answer the question of if it would have been discussed without the debate here. Hell, this deadline article itself can be cited as one of the "confusion erupted" sources. Xkcdreader (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Wow, that looks a lot of arguing. Unfortunately I haven’t been following it today, so I’ll just give this opinion before I embark on reading it with apologies if this has already been suggested and/or dismissed: This article should not report on itself, but it absolutely should make use of the published information and opinions about the title. It isn’t relevant to the movie whether Wikipedia had an aneurysm over its title, but the interpretation of the title is relevant. —Frungi (talk) 20:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- You can probably just read the last couple discussions, the rest of it was just talking in circles and getting nowhere. The gist of my point is that mentioning wikipedia doesnt automatically make the sentence ABOUT wikipedia. If the claim is going to be made that confusion resulted, the PRIME example of the confusion is the wikipedia debate. There is no bigger, longer, more verbose version of the debate. So why not just cite the documentation of the best one that made it into the papers? "The grammatical structure of the title within the context of previous series titles became so confusing massive debate erupted over how to interpret the title itself." Xkcdreader (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The reverse is true, in fact. Mentioning the movie doesn't automatically make the sentence ABOUT the movie. The subject of those sources is without question the article on Wikipedia, not the movie. - SudoGhost 20:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) But does it need to mention WIkipedia? I think it might be enough to cite the same articles and focus on the parts where they focus on the title, because that’s what’s inarguably relevant here. On a side note, this discussion seems to be mostly dominated by two editors, and it would be nice to get some other perspectives, either for or against. —Frungi (talk) 21:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- What makes the sentence about the movie is how you construct it, not what the source topic is. I could be writing about bunnies and cite an article about vikings which covers the relationship between vikings and bunnies. Xkcdreader (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- But in this case, there is no relationship to speak of because the bunnies don’t care about the Vikings and the Vikings haven’t done anything to the bunnies. (And wow, there’s something I never imagined I’d say.) Independent sources reported on how the title should be capitalized and interpreted. No need to detail the fact that Wikipedia provoked them. —Frungi (talk) 21:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that these two articles are about the movie, and not about the Wikipedia article dispute? You can frame the sentence to be about the movie, but the sources themselves are about the article, and that's what matters: what sources say, not how we can manage to fit it in where it doesn't belong, when the sources and the MoS make it clear that it doesn't belong. Frungi, those sources are about the Wikipedia article, not the movie. If a sentence were framed that tried to cleverly avoid that, it would be cherry-picking the sources to fit their desired content, as opposed to what the sources actually said. We're not playing minesweeper here; if you have to try to skirt around the word Wikipedia and omit content to try to justify adding such content to an article, it doesn't belong on the article. Independent sources reported on the Wikipedia article's issues, without that, why would "Sources say the title of the movie should be capitalized" need to go into the article? - SudoGhost 21:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree. If a source has information that’s relevant to the movie (or whatever subject) even if it’s not the main focus of the source, then that information may be included in an article about that movie. And I’m not of the opinion that we need to avoid any mention of Wikipedia; I just believe it may not be necessary, and the article can discuss the title of the movie because it’s the title of the movie. —Frungi (talk) 21:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- What makes the sentence about the movie is how you construct it, not what the source topic is. I could be writing about bunnies and cite an article about vikings which covers the relationship between vikings and bunnies. Xkcdreader (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Please close this section. Approaching 10,000 words talking about nothing. Do you realize that? It's a discussion about whether to include mention in the article about the discussion on Wikipedia about whether to capitalize the letter 'i' in the title of the article. Is that not sheer madness? Consider, for a moment, a sane reader. By sane, I mean someone who would immediately close their browser after looking at this talk page, and possibly unplug their computer. What useful information is being proposed that will benefit the sane reader? Yes, the title of the film is semantically odd. So what? Anyone can see that just looking at it. Do we have any interesting to add about the film that does not diverge into some meta-discussion or analysis of grammatical nuance that no one even cares about? If not, then close the discussion. Fletcher (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- It’s about whether to include information on the grammar and capitalization of the title, in my view. Wikipedia just happened to be involved in provoking some sources to give that information. —Frungi (talk) 01:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- What information? Anything useful? You can add sourced comments that the lack of a colon makes the title strange or ambiguous; I thought about adding a comment like that, but it felt jejune. Like saying the confusing title is confusing. Maybe I'm wrong, but don't think people are focusing on making the article interesting and relevant for the general reader. More like they are caught up in the debate. It happens to me too, but sometimes it's good to step away. Surely an article about a sci-fi action movie should have very little commentary about grammar, if any. Fletcher (talk) 02:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The references that have been offered to argue for including a section about this editorial dispute in the article itself do not merit such a mention, as per WP:NAVEL. At best it's trivia. Nightscream (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- External attention to this talk page and the title capitalisation decision deserves mention primarily at Wikipedia in culture. If it sticks there, then there should be discrete link to it from this article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.startrek.com/article/first-look-star-trek-into-darkness-trailer
- ^ http://www.startrekmovie.com/
- ^ http://www.startrek.com/page/star-trek-into-darkness
- ^ https://www.facebook.com/StarTrekMovie
- ^ https://twitter.com/startrekmovie
- ^ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/
- ^ http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/paramount/startrekintodarkness/
- ^ http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness
- ^ http://www.xkcd.com/about/
- Start-Class film articles
- Start-Class American cinema articles
- American cinema task force articles
- WikiProject Film articles
- C-Class Star Trek articles
- High-importance Star Trek articles
- WikiProject Star Trek articles
- Start-Class science fiction articles
- High-importance science fiction articles
- WikiProject Science Fiction articles
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press