Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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dorjeshugdenhistory.org reliable source?

Dorje Shugden controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) now uses www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org as a source for claiming Shugden was a Dharma Protector.[1] I had removed it saying the website fails RS, but it's been replaced claiming it is a reliable source. What do others think? Dougweller (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Doug. I'd say the article you quoted by Dreyfuss who is a professor at Williams College and a well regarded Tibetologist, is a much better source than the one the person who changed your edit used. That source www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org is a self published site written by someone who lists no academic or professional affiliation, The site appears to be to one written by a keen devotee simply trying to show the practice he believes in in the best light he can. Anyway, I think you're right in thinking that the site www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org is not a neutral academic source. So on that basis, my own view is that you would be justified in reverting the edit by TruthSayer.

However while you are at it, I'm sure you are also familiar with several other very good secondary sources (Drefyus, Lopez, Bell, Kay, Watts, and so on) where they relate various independent accounts, as well as historical and contemporary research showing that many in the Gelug and particularly the Sakya tradition believed that Shugden is a harmful demon, ghost, worldly protector, spirit, etc. In light of those sources, as well as numerous well reported statements from the Dalai Lama, and many other notable Tibetan religious leaders which have appeared in the press, you might want to consider rewriting the opening to something more like: "Dorje Shugden is a controversial Tibetan deity or spirit. For over three hundred years while some in the Gelug, and a few in the Sakya tradition, of Tibetan Buddhism have worshipped Dorje Shugden as a Dharma protector, many others in all Tibetan Buddhist traditions consider Dorje Shugden to be either a worldly spirit or a malevolent oath breaking demon." - giving the proper references and citations to those sources of course. That might give a brief summary of the background of the "controversy" which the article is about, without getting too technical or bringing up unfamiliar names and terms in the opening paragraph.

Chris Fynn (talk) 23:05, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

The criteria for WP:RS are that these are reliable academic third party sources. How can the site http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org fulfill the criteria set up in WP:RS? The site is set up and the content is written by an anonymous source, it is not peer reviewed by any academic source and it is not known if there is any established academic researcher behind the site and how much valid its content is. If someone argues this ANONYMOUS site should be used than also any other anonymous site can be used. This is all self-created, anonymous content where not even the writer stands up with his name. What is reliable in this? I don’t see any argument to use this site. Established research papers as Dreyfus or von Brück etc should be of prior use for the acticle. Here is a list of academic research which can be used because it meets the criteria for WP:RS: http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2008/07/24/academic-researches-regarding-shugden-controversy-nkt/ Kt66 (talk) 00:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you 3. TiredofShugden (talk) 20:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, there is no question here that this source does not even remotely meet reliability standards.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Tea tree oil

• Source. PMID 23099312. Pertinent extracts:

  Another home remedy, tea tree oil, also is not recommended because topical application often leads to local irritation and inflammation, allergic contact eczema, and allergic contact dermatitis as a result of eucalyptol and limonene content (Therapeutic Research Center, 2011). The National Pediculosis Association (1997-2009) also strongly recommends avoiding tea tree oil because pure tea tree oil is contraindicated in neonates, infants, and pregnant women because of a lack of information regarding safety and efficacy.
  
  [and]
  
  Avoid unproven remedies such as use of mayonnaise, petrolatum jelly, and tea tree oil.

• Content. In the body: "A 2012 review of head lice treatment recommended against the use of tea tree oil for children because it could cause skin irritation or allergic reactions, because of contraindications, and because of a lack of knowledge about the oil's safety and effectiveness." In the lede: "Its use as a treatment for head lice in children has been recommended against." Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:05, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd make the wording stronger in the lede. Something to the effect of "Despite being of no proven medical value and often causing allergic skin reactions, it is used as a treatment for head lice in children. The National Pediculosis Association strongly recommends not using tea tree oil for the treatment of pregnant women and young children because of safety concerns." That would be more in line with WP:WEIGHT. After all, the use of this substance as a treatment isn't exactly mainstream. Notable enough, but requiring an unambiguous statement saying that it's dangerous bollocks as far as the medical establishment is concerned. Just saying that it is used but not recommended gives undue weight to what is really a psuedo-scientific fringe treatment.Mark Marathon (talk) 07:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. One question that's arisen in Talk is whether PMID 23099312 is a good enough source to be usable. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 08:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I've just addressed that and a few of the other issues raised over on the talk page.Mark Marathon (talk) 09:11, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I see that Alex posted this here without notifying me. I understand that AlexBrn has misrepresented this as pseudo-science. I've done quite a bit of reviews on Pubmed articles, and every experiment where it has been used shows it is effective in killing lice. Where the medical community disagrees is whether enough evidence has been gathered to indicate it is as safe as current drugs. I think the issue here is Alex is operating on a belief it is pseudo science instead of looking for reviews on clinical trials. Luckly, I just got my VPN up, so i can get through the science direct paywall. Gsonnenf (talk) 10:22, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

As I said over on the talk page, that's fine. But you need to bring the references. Until then, this meets all the standards standards for WP:MEDRS. Not that I reject what you say, but this sourced material can't be removed because you assert that the medical consensus is otherwise. You need to actually provide those references first.Mark Marathon (talk) 10:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Not pseudoscience, but maybe more like this. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 10:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

No that is Lindane in the XKCD comic. It is the current alternative when lice are resistant to Ivermectin. Side effects of Lindane include : "seizures and deaths have been reported to the FDA in patients who use too much Lindane or after a second treatment with Lindane."Gsonnenf (talk) 10:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

None of which has any bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of Tea Tree Oil or the reliability of the source provided. It wouldn't matter if Lindane caused spontaneous human combustion, that still wouldn't make Tea Tree Oil any more effective. And it wouldn't matter if Ivermectin led to irreversible lycanthropy, it wouldn't be evidence that the source provided is unreliable. That's not how either Wikipedia or science works. Mark Marathon (talk) 10:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, the National Pediculosis Association also took a dim view of Lindane. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 11:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

It appears eczema is a worse result than head lice per that article? I would fer shure have thought "seizures and deaths" were a teeny bit worse than head lice. AFAICT, the major issue is that there is insufficient money to be made to warrant full scale medical studies about "possible contraindications" of a home remedy but that, IMHO, is insufficient to label it as "pseudoscience" either. Collect (talk) 12:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Once again, none of this has any bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of Tea Tree Oil or the reliability of the source provided. It wouldn't matter if we had reliable sources stating that Lindane caused spontaneous human combustion and tea tree oil caused eczema. A reliable source will still say that tea tree oil should be avoided because it causes eczema. And it wouldn't matter if Ivermectin led to irreversible lycanthropy, and tea tree oil caused flatulence. It wouldn't be evidence that tea tree oil didn't case flatulence. Comparing tea tree oil to other treatments is utterly irrelevant because this article is about tea tree oil, not about other treatments. If tea tree oil is unsafe, it will still remain unsafe whether some other treatment is more or less safe. And if the medical consensus is that tea tree oil is unsafe, then that will remain the consensus even if the consensus is that some other treatment is even less safe. That is how both Wikpedia and science work. Mark Marathon (talk) 12:34, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that the National Pediculosis Association should be regarded as a reliable source on claims of efficacy or safety of medical treatments. Is it known that the National Pediculosis Association isn't being run by a concerned parent with no medical training, who is operating the organization out of her or his garage? The fact that the article by Eisenhower and associates cites anything that the National Pediculosis Association says raises questions about the reliability of the article. (I have not read the Eisenhower article, so I don't know the context in which the statement was made.) Incidentally, a specific statement warning against the use of tea tree oil for treatment of head lice in children seems out of place in the lede of a general article on tea tree oil – but that discussion is not really appropriate for this noticeboard. Dezastru (talk) 14:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The National Pediculosis Association should be regarded as a reliable source on claims of efficacy or safety of medical treatments because the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services considers them to be legit [[2]], and describes them as "a non-profit health... agency... including scientific advisors". Unless there is something to make us question this standing, that's enough right there to make the organisation itself, including its website, RS. Unless of course you are arguing that the US Dept of Health is itself not MEDRS, which seems unlikely. It is indeed known that the National Pediculosis Association isn't being run by a concerned parent with no medical training, who is operating the organization out of her or his garage. I have no idea where you got your information from, but the organisation is headed by a former university professor with numerous publications this field. The NPA is also regularly cited, favourably, in top tier medical and scientific journals and is a chosen partner of various research and public health programs. So the organisation clearly RS. You could have ascertained this yourself with a simple Google search, rather than relying on the erroneous information about the organsation being run out of a garage. And can you explain why citing the NPA raises questions about the reliability of the Eisenhower article, and by extension the reliability of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services? Mark Marathon (talk) 11:37, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"The National Pediculosis Association should be regarded as a reliable source on claims of efficacy or safety of medical treatments because the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services considers them to be legit" [[3]]

That's just a listing of non-profit organizations interested in helping people with health concerns – through support groups, advocacy for patient issues before government bodies and medical professional organizations, fundraising for medical research, education, etc. It's not a stamp of approval by HHS medical scientists on medical claims made by any of the organizations. Unless you are arguing that medical scientists at the US Department of Health and Human Services also endorse medical claims made by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Farm Animal Rights Movement, and the North American Vegetarian Society, all of which are on that same list on HHS's website.

"I have no idea where you got your information from, but the organisation is headed by a former university professor with numerous publications this field."

I'd be very interested in seeing these numerous publications in the related field that you are citing. Can you list them or point to a reliable source that lists them?

"It is indeed known that the National Pediculosis Association isn't being run by a concerned parent with no medical training, who is operating the organization out of her or his garage."

At least, that's what Deborah Altschuler of the National Pediculosis Association says. Ms. Altschuler started the group 15 years ago when her daughter was sent home from nursery school with lice and the message we don't have families like that here. Since then, she has been trying to de-stigmatize lice, and to get people to behave rationally when they find them. Her group sells a $14.95 comb, which she believes is the only thing that will stop an infestation: picking out the eggs, or nits, one by one. She warns that many pesticide shampoos are dangerous. And she says that if people are serious about nitpicking, they really don't need to go into housekeeping overdrive.

New York Times, 1998 [4]

A year after the American Academy of Pediatrics called on schools to end no-nits policies that keep children being treated for head lice out of classes, little has changed except the intensity of the debate, according to an article published yesterday in The American Journal of Nursing.... The academy recommends treatment with a cream rinse, sold commercially as Nix, which contains permethrin. The nursing journal article said those recommendations had been vigorously contested over the last year by members of the National Pediculosis Association, which opposes chemical treatments in favor of the use of special combs to find and remove nits.

New York Times, 2003 [5]

Many of us come naturally to advocacy in our role as parents. The activist in public health, however, can face a peculiar set of problems.... This is where the activist evolves into educator, support system and collector of personal accounts - sometimes appalling - of families and individuals who have suffered from unnecessary, unsuccessful or excessive chemical treatments. The activist must do what disinterested experts will not do: investigate the origin, nature, methods and limits of knowledge in Pediculosis and its management. The activist must also seek allies - often the school nurses, occasionally the press, and sometimes (in cases where a child has suffered grievous harm), the lawyers - when there is no mechanism in place to exchange insights, experience and research. With the exception of an occasional accolade for all the hard work that goes into being an activist, I generally find myself resenting the term....  It is the activist's particular challenge to educate the public in spite of the relative indifference to this issue on the part of the professional communities the public turns to for advice.

Deborah Altschuler, president of the National Pediculosis Association, from the organization's website [6] Dezastru (talk) 22:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Another issue I have with the NPA is their TTO source material is dated from 1999 and is a non-peer reviewed letter. There have been about 100 articles about Tea Tree Oil since the 1999 letter. Also the TTO page has a 2009 copyright date and has no date of last review as is common on most medical websites. They also don't list any of their staff or credentials on their website. They also appear to be pushing some sort of Nit Comb for people to buy. Also listing on Heathfinder.gov is no guarantee of medical competence. That index lists everything from social activists ( http://healthfinder.gov/FindServices/Organizations/Organization.aspx?code=HR2452 ) to weightloss gurus (http://www.tops.org/). The descriptions are pretty much taken off the website "about" page.

Anyhow I've found a couple of PUBMED secondary source reviews of trials that I believe are as close to top tier in WP:MEDRS as we can get for Tea Tree Oil. I will also reiterate that MEDRS is need for the portion of the article that include medical treatment, including treatment of lice. Simple RS will not do for these sections. These articles are: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22998411 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16243420.Gsonnenf (talk) 18:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Gsonnenf's comments about the National Pediculosis Association. Dezastru (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd say there are two separate issues here:

• The National Pediculosois Society is an advocacy group and not a professional medical society. The fact that they have "scientific advisors" does not change that fact. So do all kinds of fringe organizations like the Fluoroquinolone Research Toxicity Foundation and various anti-psychiatry groups. Calling themselves the "National Pediculosis Society" is intended to give themselves a neutral, authoritative image, but their actual activities would be better described as the "National Society for Reducing the Use of Chemical Treatments of Skin Infections". They also appose the use of FDA approved, guideline-recommended treatments, and thus are not a mainstream group. The fact that they are listed on Healthcare.gov is not pertinent. The same website lists the National Alliance for Mental Illness, which receives 90% of its funding from the pharmaceutical industry and is a poster child for industry sponsored "patient advocacy groups".
• The fact that Tea Tree Oil is a natural substance does not guarantee that it is safe. Indeed, there are many highly toxic drugs used for chemotherapy (taxol, vincristine) that are natural products extracted from plants. If this was a synthetic drug produced by a pharmaceutical company, its minimal level of safety and efficacy testing and lack of FDA approval would prevent it from being discussed as a remedy for any disease at Wikipedia. If it was mentioned at all, it would be only to state that is no convincing evidence of its safety and efficacy. The same standard should apply here.

I would suggest using a non-NPS source to point out the lack of safety and efficacy testing. If none can be found, I would not mention Tea Tree Oil in the article at all.Formerly 98 (talk) 21:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I generally agree with the comments of Formerly 98. However, it should be noted that the Wikipedia article being discussed is on tea tree oil, not on head lice. Dezastru (talk) 23:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'm going to suggest that we look to reputable, well-recognized independent sources here. For example, the Canadian Paediatric Society guidelines state: "While a number of 'natural' agents, such as tea tree oil and aromatherapy, have been used for the treatment of head lice, efficacy and toxicity data are not available for these agents." Similarly, the American Academy of Pediatrics states: "Essential oils have been widely used in traditional medicine for the eradication of head lice, but because of the variability of their constitution, the effects may not be reproducible... As natural products, they are not required to meet FDA efficacy and safety standards for pharmaceuticals." Neither is exactly a ringing endorsement. MastCell ^Talk 21:26, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I found something from the European Commission, if you dont' already have it. http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_160.pdf

Here's one from the American Cancer Society http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/herbsvitaminsandminerals/tea-tree-oil Formerly 98 (talk) 03:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

* Hello, I agree with you about the NPA. Though I feel the information from the CPS.ca about toxicity data on Tea Tree Oil being unknown is a bit out of date (citations from 1999 and 2003, Tea Tree Oil has been more extensively studied in the last 10 year). Per WP:MEDRS, I'm currently using currently using the gold standard in the form of a 2006 ("A review of the toxicity of Melaleuca alternifolia (tea tree) oil" ) and 2013 ("A review of applications of tea tree oil in dermatology") PUBMED secondary source review articles that establishes toxicity and safety data for Tea Tree Oil. Tea tree Oil specific material from other major tertiary sources with recent citations (EU Commission, NIH, Australian RDIC, ACS ) also help establish guidelines for safety. Any comments on these papers would be appreciated. I have the full articles available if anyone would like them.Gsonnenf (talk) 03:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Is Sevan Nisanyan acceptable as a source for etymology

[nisanyansozluk.com] is being used as a source in Tarkhan in a discussion about the meaning of the word.[7] His biography at tr.wiki[8] says he started by writing about computing, then travel books. He's written Etymological Dictionary of Contemporary Turkish and I presume it's the website version that is being used as a source. Dougweller (talk) 16:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

The Turkish page about Sevan Nishanyan says "dil bilimcidir" which is translated as "linguist" by google translator: http://translate.google.de/#tr/en/dil%20bilimci. "www.nisanyansozluk.com" is also accepted as academic source in the Wiktionary with the template "wikt:Template:R:tr:Nishanyan. --91.56.242.218 (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Not unless there's some evidence of his expertise in historical linguistics or some academic response to his dictionary. (For full disclosure, I never trust Wiktionary.) Andrew Dalby 18:25, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

On his homepage he writes that the credibility of his etymological dictionary and his credibility as a historical etymologist (or historical linguist) is recognized by the Turkish Language Association, though he has a strange background, he wrote his Etymological Dictionary in prison and studied History, Philosophy and Political Systems in the U.S. and knows about 12 languages. So yes, maybe reliable. --F3n7x (talk) 07:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm the one who created Nshanyan's template in Wiktionary. I do not know anything about his linguistic training, but I can tell from my experience that the dictionary is reliable. I deal a lot with Iranian and Armenian etymologies and often create entries for Turkish words borrowed from these languages. And whenever I check Nshanyan, his etymology agrees with my well-known and clearly academic sources. One critique I have, is that he does not give his sources. PS Here is an academic response to his dictionary. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 15:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Not reliable. Anyone who takes a language course can publish a "dictionary" and call himself or herself a "linguist", which seems to be what is going on here.[9] Dezastru (talk) 18:31, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

He is not a linguist and his "etymological" dictionary is not reliable. On the Nişanyan Sözlük (http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=kayak): kayak2 ~ İng kayak Eskimo kayığı ~ İnuit kayak "erkek aracı", erkeklere özgü kayık < kayık < İnuit ka "erkek"... I know Inuit and other Eskimo languages; but, not found "ka" (erkek = male) in Inuit and Yupik languages. --Kmoksy (talk) 09:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks almost reliable. Link: "7. Türk Dil Kurumu Yazım Kılavuzu'nda bulunan sözcükler Yazım Kılavuzu'na uygun olarak yazılmıştır." Here it says that the orthography of his dictionary was found to be adequate/reliable by TDK, the official regulatory body of the Turkish language. Sevan Nişanyan, of Armenian origin, is known to have a strong reputation in the linguistic field in Turkey. --Mrliebeip (talk) 16:03, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you fluent in Turkish? Did you translate the passage yourself? Does the line say that the Turkish Language Association has given its blessing on the accuracy of etymology in his dictionary, or just on the spelling of words in his dictionary – or does the line actually say that the words in the dictionary are spelled/written following the style recommended by the Turkish Language Institute? Dezastru (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I did tranlate the passage on my own. My Turkish is fluent but sometimes I have to check foreign words like "Kılavuz". In this case the passage basically says that the words listed in his dictionary are based on the TDK's orthography. TDK maintains a close relationship with Nisanyan (link). The author of the academic response to Nisanyan (the link provided by user Vahagn Petrosyan above) lauded his efforts. Nisanyan's etymological dictionary is also frequently used as a source in Turkish academic circles like here: 1, or here: 2. -- Mrliebeip (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

A statement that a work dealing with etymology follows a particular orthography system does not mean that the etymology content for the entries in the work is valid. Orthography deals with how words are written or spelled, not with the derivation of their meaning, which is what etymology involves. Dezastru (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think yes, it's RS. It seems to be taken seriously by Turkish historical linguists. The review first cited above is a long discussion of particular entries, often reaching different conclusions, but that's quite normal in etymology :) and the fact that another scholar gave it a full academic analysis speaks in its favour. If it's all rubbish, a reviewer would just say so and move on.

If it's RS that doesn't mean it's always right, but that it may be worth citing even in cases where opinions differ. Andrew Dalby 22:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It's possible it is reliable. Much of the evidence being presented here has not been particularly persuasive, however. Do you honestly believe he "knows about 12 languages" (the implication being that he doesn't just know greetings and a few basic travel-related words, but rather has an in-depth knowledge of numerous languages)? Dezastru (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

No idea :) I focused on what seemed most relevant. Andrew Dalby 00:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Is this person reliable for the same arcticle? Leland Liu Rogers — Translator. Indiana University, graduate student in Mongolian Studies. Leland is a fluent speaker of Mongolian, and has over two years' cumulative experience in. And this is the work I would like to refer to. -- Mrliebeip (talk) 15:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Scholarly publisher, scholarly series. Looks OK, though, as always, it depends what information you want to cite it for. Andrew Dalby 18:00, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The same information relating the Hunnic etymology of the word tarqan. In the past 2 years there were deleted some portions of text due to some incidents with IP sockpuppets and persistent vandalism. I just wanted to re-add the relevant points. -- Mrliebeip (talk) 19:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

BLP info sourced from All Movie Guide

Article on Eli Wallach. Is All Movie Guide[10] a reliable source for info about his life and career? NY Times seems to think so.[11] Does Wikipedia? Dezastru (talk) 00:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Anyone? Dezastru (talk) 17:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

As always, it is helpful to know what's the content actually at issue here. For what purpose would the AMG content be used? I don't see any clues in the recent editing history.--Arxiloxos (talk) 17:37, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

For example, "Wallach first appeared on stage in a 1930 amateur production." Dezastru (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The recent discussions I can find seem to conclude that the Rovi/AMG bios can be used as reliable sources, especuially for noncontroversial matters, and subject to the usual caveats and limitations. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 160#AllMusic/AMG as a source for biographical info, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 118#disputed date of birth, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 128#Allrovi. --Arxiloxos (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Bild

I removed material from Global surveillance disclosures (2013–present) and Thomas de Maizière that was cited to the German tabloid Bild.[12][13]. My rationale for deletion is:

• Our Wikipedia article on Bild indicates that the source is not reliable: "Bild has been known to use controversial devices like sensational headlines and invented "news" to increase its readership."
• When Bild came up on RSN in the past, all three editors who commented expressed significant concerns about its use:[14].
• The cited report in Bild relies entirely on unnamed sources.

Another editor restored the material noting that Reuters picked up the story. However, Reuters is not verifying or independently reporting on this - they're just repeating Bild's claim.[15]. I would appreciate comments on whether this material should be included from editors who are familiar with German media.GabrielF (talk) 18:11, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

While I generally agree that we should avoid tabloid sources such as Bild, I think there are circumstances in which doing so is warrated. So far, Bild seems to have a good track record when it comes to reporting on these surveillance disclosures. Its headlines may appear to be sensationalized, but I do not see any attempts to distort or misrepresent the facts. According to Der Spiegel, the German govt. has even confirmed that an exclusive report related to these disclosures by Bild is factually accurate. If I may briefly quote from Der Spiegel: "...a claim made by a mass-circulation newspaper that Germany's army knew about Prism in 2011 is, in fact, true..." -A1candidate (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

If another source is able to provide independent confirmation, then there isn't an issue. However, I don't believe that we should accept Bild as a reliable source on the basis of one report. The National Enquirer broke the story that John Edwards had an affair. We would never accept a report in the Enquirer cited to unnamed sources on a similar matter.GabrielF (talk) 18:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The NSA's surveillance of Merkel's aides has been independently confirmed by Snowden himself. -A1candidate (talk) 19:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Snowden is not confirming the specific report in Bild. The quote from Snowden that you linked is: "The question is how reasonable is it to assume that she is the only German official that was monitored, how reasonable is it to believe that she’s the only prominent German face who the National Security Agency was watching. I would suggest it seems unreasonable that if anyone was concerned about the intentions of German leadership that they would only watch Merkel and not her aides, not other prominent officials, not heads of ministries or even local government officials." That is very different from the specific claim that Bild is making, namely that 300+ officials are being monitored including Thomas de Maizière specifically.GabrielF (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

As a practicing journalist, I would warn against any blanket assumptions or accusations when it comes to the reliability of a published source. Some are better, some worse, nobody is perfect. The famed “editorial control” more and more becomes a matter of mythology. When newspapers have to save – and they all have to – the unproductive and bothersome fact checker usually is first not to be replaced when retirement comes.

Having said that, the fact that BILD (not unlike other media elsewhere) sometimes can have a cavalier attitude towards sourcing should not be used to delete a whole passage from WP. I have checked the deleted passage named in the diff, and in my professional opinion, there is very little a newsdesk editor would object to. To wit:

“Quoting an unnamed NSA official in Germany, Bild am Sonntag reported that whilst President Obama's order to stop spying on Merkel was being obeyed, the focus had shifted to bugging other leading government and business figures including Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere, a close confidant of Merkel. Caitlin Hayden, a security adviser to President Obama, was quoted in the newspaper report as saying, "The US has made clear it gathers intelligence in exactly the same way as any other states." ”

• The passage from the article does not say “the NSA now spies on Minister Thomas de Maiziere.” The passage says (to paraphrase): “Bild am Sonntag reports that the NSA now spies on Minister Thomas de Maiziere.” The fact to prove is not the spying, but whether Bild am Sonntag did the reporting. That fact is properly sourced with a Reuters report. This is all we should be concerned with, and having done so, we should leave the passage alone.

• I personally would not have used the second source from germanynews.net, not because it is wrong what it says (it basically repeats the Reuters report) but because its headline editor was sloppy, calling it a “Dutch” news report. Bild am Sonntag is not Dutch, it’s Deutsch. Minor quibble. Other sources would be readily available.

• I personally would also have cited the primary source BamS article itself, not to prove what we don’t have to prove, namely that BamS is correct in saying that the NSA now spies on Germany’s Interior Minister and 300 more high profile people, but to fact-check Reuters’ assertion that BamS reported same. I assume this is the article in question. BILD is behind a paywall, and I will not spend 99 cents to prove a point. Again, a minor quibble, and an irritating personal habit born from trying to get as close to the facts as possible.

• Further minor quibble: It was not BILD that said it, but Bild am Sonntag. Officially a different paper. Thicker. Longer stories. But if we discuss the reliability of sources, we should name the correct ones.

• What is also mildly disconcerting is the fact that there seems to be a low level edit war about this passage, with one of the edit warriors among us. This forum should not be instrumentalized to gain points in edit wars.

To sum it up, the reliability or unreliability of BILD, or rather BamS, is not what needs to be weighed. The only fact that needs to be sourced is: Did BamS report that the NSA shifted its focus from the German Chancellor to the rows behind her? And the answer appears to be yes.

Should the passage be removed because BILD's reliablility is in doubt? The answer appears to be no.BsBsBs (talk) 15:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Cardinal Ottaviani, Pius XII and John XXIII

Are any of the many online sources cited in this section of the article on Mary Faustina Kowalska reliable (by Wikipedia norms) for the statement, "After a failed attempt to persuade Pope Pius XII to sign a condemnation, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani at the Holy Office included her works on a list he submitted to the newly elected Pope John XXIII in 1959"?

Although this sounds somewhat like a conspiracy theory, I would not oppose it, if only it is judged to be based on a reliable source. I have discussed it here in the hope that someone (anyone other than the editor who has inserted the statement) would express an opinion. Esoglou (talk) 07:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't have access to Prayer, Aspiration and Contemplation: Selections from the writings of John of St. Samson, O. Carm., mystic and charismatic, but the rest all appear to be self-published sources, mostly blog posts, making claims about third parties. They do not cite their sources. Daniel Klimek's [16] article "ON SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT - HISTORY SHOWS POPES VIEWS ON MYSTICS DIFFER" [17] might be useful if it indicated its sources; unfortunately, it doesn't. So, no, none of these meet Wikipedia reliable sources standards for that statement. This article [18] by John L. Allen from the National Catholic Reporter is reliable, but the Wikipedia article statement would need to be revised somewhat to reflect what the Allen article says. Dezastru (talk) 18:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The amount of information supporting the “failed attempt” statement is quite substantial, and there is zero evidence to the contrary. I’m confident that there are still many more sources of books, periodicals, information, etc. to be tapped. My next move is to contact all the sources in an effort to compile more verification. I’ll add additional references as they become available.AcuteInsight (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Just got a tip that there is also a reference to Ottaviani's attempt to get Pope Pius XII to sign a condemnations in "Vatican Secret Diplomacy: Joseph P. Hurley and Pope Pius XII by Charles R. Gallagher, Society of Jesus New England [19]. It's $40, and I'm not buying another book just to have it rejected again. I'm going to try to order it through the library.AcuteInsight (talk) 03:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with User:Dezastru that the sources AcuteInsight has cited for her/his statement are not reliable by Wikipedia standards. AcuteInsight's unsupported opinion that they are "quite substantial" is an insufficient rebuttal. If the book AcuteInsight refers to should turn out to contain a statement in support, it can then be cited, but the question is about the sources that AcuteInsight has actually cited. Esoglou (talk) 09:03, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Is this unpublished paper by a PhD candidate a reliable source?

This paper[20] is extensively used on our article on the Mosuo, an article that has suffered from NPOV problems. I don't find it cited in Google Books or Google Scholar. I'm inclined to remove it as well as other material fact tagged over a year ago, but would like other opinions first. I can't see a justification for using it. Dougweller (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that anything pre-PhD itself is reliable. Only after that point does it become suitably peer reviewed. - Sitush (talk) 11:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Sitush, I think your position is too broad here. It's at least plausible that this paper falls under the one exception to WP:SPS, namely that Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. Blumenfield is an internationally recognized expert on the Na, her subsequent work has been both published and lauded by reliable third parties, and she says in the document that she's summarizing a planned book. I put more detail here. I'm not arguing that it is reliable, but I think it's not so easily dismissible as the average PDF on a grad student's web page.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I think Sitush is correct in that such a source needs some other reason to be seen as reliable, but the response at my talk page leaves me satisfied with leaving it in at the moment, although a comment on the talk page as well as attributing the statements seems appropriate. Thanks to both. Dougweller (talk) 12:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888_acorn_report.pdf "REPORT OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL"

Is used as a source for a number of strong claims at Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. The query is as to whether it is a primary source and not a secondary one, and whether quotes taken from it are usable in the article where they might possibly be taken from a primary document out of full context. Thanks. Collect (talk) 16:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The California Attorney General's report is primarily a secondary source in this context (although portions of it might be regarded as a primary source). The authors of the report collected and reviewed primary sources (evidence), which they are analyzing and interpreting. Primary sources would document the report authors' own involvement in the events in question (eg, video secretly recorded by the California Attorney General of ACORN workers engaging in conversations about prostitution). Secondary sources would be conclusions based on having reviewed primary sources (eg, a statement of the California Attorney General concluding that O'Keefe and Giles secretly recorded audio and video at ACORN offices). The portions that might be considered primary sources in certain contexts would be something like (p. 18), "On November 24, 2009, we interviewed Roach in our San Diego office.... We obtained from Roach a digital copy of the documents he recovered." Here the Attorney General's investigators describe their own involvement in collecting information. If someone wanted to write an analysis of investigations into the ACORN affair, this kind of statement would be considered a primary source.

What are the statements in the Wikipedia article that there is a question about in terms of reliable sourcing? Dezastru (talk) 18:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Google translate or blog translate for article on Ukraine's Right Sector?

There is a disagreement on Right Sector and Talk:Right Sector as to whether Right Sector leader, Dmytro Yarosh, should be quoted from a Ukrains’ka Pravda interview using one of two available sources:

• this blog post, which is a translation by William Risch, who seems to be this professor of history, or
• this google translate page, which is, I think, translating a comment from http://crimea.ua published about 20 days later.

Help would be appreciated. -Darouet (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If quoting, definitely go with the Google-translated page. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is the original Pravda article, and here is the google translation of that article, instead of the comment. You'll have to scroll down to find the appropriate text. -Darouet (talk) 16:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• One other thing what would be helpful, if anybody's able to figure it out, is an explanation of why the google translated crimea.comments.ua post is do different from the google translation of the original Pravda article, and of what crimea.comments.ua really is? -Darouet (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Should never, ever, use a machine translation of a source. Risk of missing subtle nuances in the language and just plain errors in translations. You can also post to an appropriate Wikiproject asking for help with a translation or for a summary of the source if you aren't sure. Ravensfire (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

What about crimea.comments.ua: is this a reliable source? I can't tell if it's a comment, or article, or what. And why does the google translated text from it look similar to the google translated Pravda paragraph, but different in important ways? -Darouet (talk) 22:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

You can use Google Translate to get an impression of what is in a source, and whether the source is a blog comment or a proper newspaper article. If that's not enough, ask for a translation or a reading on the languages ref desk. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Fully seconding Itsmejudith. Google Translate can be used to get the gist of something written in a foreign language, but never as a source.BsBsBs (talk) 15:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks all. It turned out that the historian's translation of the Pravda article more or less matched the google translate version. The google translation of the crimea.comments.ua page has been ignored because nobody knows what crimea.comments.ua is exactly. -Darouet (talk) 01:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Some help with an author, please: G. C.Dwivedi

I apologise for this not being an inquiry relating to a specific article but the nature of the query really is a general one.

The Jats are well-covered by uninvolved reliable sources. However, our articles also frequently cite G. C. Dwivedi's The Jats: Their Role in the Mughal Empire and in particular a version edited by Vir Singh (author). From what I've been able to piece together, Dwivedi appears to be/have been a Jat himself; Vir Singh is director of Surajmal Memorial Education Society and also a Jat. I can't find out much about them in terms of their academic expertise as historians and worry greatly that they're promoting the deeds of the Jat people, as is common among caste-affiliated "pseudo-histories". The book itself barely registers as a citation on GBooks (and then only in poor sources) and it doesn't register at all at JSTOR. Note that Suraj Mal is a Jat hero and that the primary purpose of the SMES seems to be technical education rather than something more attuned to the subject matter of the book.

I'm worried here that we're dealing with crusading amateur historians/caste hagiographers. Can anyone find anything more that might give a general indication of reliability or otherwise for statements of historical fact? - Sitush (talk) 14:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

FamilyTreeLegends.com

Note

Moved from ANI board

This website, from the "leader in software and services for family history enthusiasts," was recently used as a source to insert alleged birth names, and date of births on a BLP. No other sources I found were reporting this information. I'm told this is covered by WP:BLPPRIMARY, and should not be used.

Hundreds of Wikipedia articles are using this cite as a reference or external link, (see here).

Should this cite by blocked from use on Wikipedia? Is there some value that is appropriate? Sportfan5000 (talk) 14:49, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe this might be more appropriately discussed at the reliable sources noticeboard, especially as I'm uncertain how this matter requires administrator intervention. DonIago (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking the site needs to be blacklisted, which requires an administrator to do. BUt I may be missing that this has some validity. I haven't seen a case yet which didn't violate either WP:ELNO, or WP:BLPPRIMARY. And most of these links are on BLPs. Sportfan5000 (talk) 15:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Take it to RSN and see if people want it added to the blacklist. That can be done if there is consensus there. I don't mess with the list myself as I'm always afraid of breaking the syntax, but I know how to add a request! Dougweller (talk) 15:49, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It is a software company, and of essentially nil value for making any claims of fact. Collect (talk) 16:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It looks like 661 Wikipedia articles include a link to familytreelegends. The software depends on user input, which can be good or it can be garbage: GIGO. The reference is not reliable or unreliable on its face. Binksternet (talk) 16:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I know WP editors like to paint an entire website with a single brush, but that's not a very good practice. In the case of familytreelegends.com, whether it's a reliable source depends on which records from the site are being cited. The site has digitized books - reference, history, and geography books - that are the same as the books found on Google Books or archive.org. Those should be considered reliable sources. The remainder of the records on the site are indexes of primary sources. Although not primary sources themselves, the method of index creation often leaves a lot to be desired, so the indexes should not be considered reliable. Any family trees found on the site are user-contributed, so they fail WP:SPS (the site hosts, but does not publish the trees), and are not reliable. 71.139.152.78 (talk) 20:31, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm trying to see if this is mostly being used to support BLP names and date of births, which sure seems likes it's misusing primary sources, or if there is valid uses that it is also accomplishing. If the site is using reliable sources, then those are the reliable sources we should be citing, not an aggregator of sorts. The majority of cases have been violating WP:BLPPRIMARY, and WP:EL. Can you show some examples where that is not the case and the software is being used within acceptable areas? Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:39, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Three examples:

• Monroe, Wisconsin article, footnote 19 cites this source: Collections of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin, Volume 12, a reliable historical text. For comparison purposes, the volume is also online at the Wisconsin Historical Society website: [21], at archive.org: [22], and on Google Books: [23].
• Henry Hammel and Andrew H. Denker article, footnote 13 cites this source: Sixty Years in Southern California, 1853-1913 also available at archive.org: [24] and Google Books: [25].
• San Timoteo Canyon article, footnote 3 cites this source: The Native Americans of Southern California, 1852, also available at Google Books: [26].

Take a look at the categories in the familytreelegends' records collection. Records found in the Birth, Marriage, Death, & Other; Military; and Land, Court, & Probate categories are indexes of primary records. Those in the Biography & History and Geography & Reference categories are digitized books, such as those shown above, and those found on archive.org and Google Books.

I'm not sure what you mean by "software". None of the familysearchlegends citations I looked at were to any software, only to the site's record collections. 71.139.152.78 (talk) 21:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

In the above examples, it would make sense to cite the original source rather than FamilyTreeLegends. When someone uses Google or Google Books they are not putting the search as the source, they put the original source. I have no issue with using this company if it leads to a source but i don't think the search vehicle itself should be cited. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

You didn't bother to click on any of those footnote links, did you? None of them was using the search as the source. ALL of them linked to the actual source, either a digitized image or a transcription of the source. 71.139.152.78 (talk) 01:11, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I di dactually, and I think it's misleading to the reader who sees FamilyTreeLegends as a source when they, much like Google books, is simply the conduit to the real source. The real source should be cited directed, possibly with a link to FTL's image capture. But the source should be honestly represented instead of appearing to be FTL. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:11, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• This is actually directing me to My Heritage.com. This site is exactly like Ancestry.com and is all user generated content. The site itself is not RS and I can see no logical reasoning to use the site as a source when the references used to document genealogy there would be like finding a reference here. We don't cite Wikipedia just because the source was found here.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Should FamilyTreeLegends.com/My Heritage.com be blacklisted

• Support This looks like it is being misused on a large enough scale to be concerning.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support. My comparison might not be accurate, but i see the site's positive uses to finding reliable sources, much like one can use Google Books. However not everything at either of these cites can or should be used as sources, and just like we don't use a Google Book search as an actual reference, neither should we use this cite. Instead directly attribute to the underlying source and reference that. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support Also rootsweb.ancestry.com, and see if there are any more. TFD (talk) 14:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose Most of those supporting the ban really do not understand what the website (or rootsweb or ancestry) are all about. This isn't a black and white issue. Some of the records on familytreelegends (and rootsweb and ancestry) are primary records that should not be used. I feel just as strongly about that as others. But some of the "records" are not actually records - they're historical texts. Please see my (71.139.152.78) comment above where I laid out 3 examples of historical texts hosted at familytreelegends that are without a doubt reliable sources. See hundreds more here. Do you really want to blacklist the CIA World Factbook? 71.139.149.178 (talk) 21:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Are Susumu Nakanishi and Donald Keene "historians"?

I'm not sure if this belongs here or on ANI, since it's clearly a politically-motivated user trying to find any excuse he can to dismiss my sources, but on Talk:Yamanoue no Okura User:Dwy has been claiming that literary scholars such as Donald Keene and Nakanishi Susumu don't qualify as "historians" because they are "literary scholars" instead. I should clarify that by "historians" Dwy is referring to a Japanese word rekishi-gakusha, a term that generally refers to the study of political history, and by "literary scholars" he means kokubun-gakusha. The problem is that the article in question is about a poet who is not notable for any impact he had on politics or the like, and whose name gets only a few passing mentions in the historical records of the time. For this reason, virtually no political historians write about him.

The subject is considered by a vast number of (probably most) literary scholars to have been of Korean (Baekje) descent, but in the 1970s and 80s this theory was criticized by two political historians based on somewhat non-intuitive readings of ancient texts and one or two of the minor details that are known about him. The theory was defended by several prominent literary historians, and the debate has largely died down since c.1985. Since then, virtually every book and scholarly article covering the subject in detail (with one exception) has said either "Okura was born in Baekje" or "Okura was probably born in Baekje". All of these books and articles are written by "literary scholars" and not "historians".

I interpret this as meaning that the consensus theory is that Okura was probably born in Baekje, but that we probably shouldn't state this in the article until a new general reference work is published that backs this up explicitly. User:Dwy, however, interprets it as "literary scholars say one thing, but historians say another thing". Unfortunately, because this subject is not a significant part of political history, the only political historians who have discussed it in any detail are the very few who oppose the theory on grounds of political history, and the overwhelming majority who (probably) see the theory as something for literary historians to decide amongst themselves have not touched it. This makes it very hard for me to discuss with Dwy, who insists that "no historians accept this theory".

My question here is whether scholars like Nakanishi and Keene count as "historians" for our purposes. Both of them have spent over half a century teaching and writing about the history of Japanese literature (the latter wrote a 4,000+page history of Japanese literature in English[27][28][29][30]), and if scholars who study old literary texts don't count as "historians" then do we throw New Testament scholars like Bart Ehrman out as well? To the best of my knowledge the only "historian" (by Dwy's definition) Ehrman has ever cited in one of his books was a historian of classical Greece and Rome who rejected the historicity of Jesus -- does this mean the article on Jesus should say "literary scholars of the New Testament consider Jesus to have existed, but historians reject this claim"?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's leave Jesus out of it :) We can report what these scholars say. It isn't our job to subclassify them. All that really matters is that this topic is relevant to their work, and it clearly is. Does that answer your question? Andrew Dalby 17:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I brought Jesus in because Ehrman is an English-speaking historian who has had people ask him "Are you a literary scholar or are you a historian?" Y'know -- a REAL historian. He basically dismisses this question, saying that if he has a doctorate in the relevant field and teaches history and writes history, he's a historian. In my opinion this is the same for the two scholars I mention. The problem is that another user is insisting that they are "not real historians". I'm not concerned with being allowed report what the scholars say anymore (I won that debate), but with whether we should have to say "this theory is rejected by historians", or whether we can just work with the fact that, since literary historians are historians, then virtually all historians who we can cite accept the theory. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see, sorry. Well, literary historians are historians. The name's a giveaway, really. What they might be called in Japanese is not so very persuasive, because we ought to try to give guidance that would work similarly in other contexts on the English Wikipedia.

So it would be misleading to readers if we said that historians reject this theory if (for example) Donald Keene accepts it.

It may be relevant to your discussion that to classify our scholars into groups, unless they explicitly do so themselves, is synthesis, which we try to avoid. So I wouldn't even say that "political historians" or "literary historians" take a particular view here, unless these conflicting groups are so named in our sources. Instead, given that there is disagreement, I would name the most useful or eminent names on either side: one should be enough, two at the most. And that's what we probably ought to do in the Jesus case too, I think, whenever that arises ... Andrew Dalby 09:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Keene's background is in Japanese literature, so it would be incorrect to call him an historian. But an article about history published in an academic journal is rs, because academic disciplines do not operate in isolation. The issue seems to be however about what weight to assign different opinions. Try to find an rs that writes about the various views and explains the weight that academics have assigned to them. TFD (talk) 14:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

If your doctoral thesis was written as a historical analysis of an 8th-century poet are you still not a historian? (This is Levy: I don't know off the top of my head what Keene wrote his dissertation on. I also don't have him answering questions after a lecture in which some guy asked him if he's a "real historian" and he responded by saying that he has a job as a historian so that's what he is; that's part of why I started with the Ehrman analogy.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

It is not very nice of Hijiri 88 to open a discussion here with such a one-sided description of the case, especially when he did not give me any notification or a chance to present my side of story. I am tempted to contradict every point Hijiri 88 made, but it would not be very constructive. So I make the most relevant point only:

As mentioned earlier,[31] the term "historians"(史家) was taken from the words of Susumu Nakanishi himself, 「帰化人の推定について史家の意見を仰いだところ「臣」たることに異議があった」(I asked for the opinion of historian on assuming that he was an immigrant, and they raised objection on the basis of his being "Omi.")（Nakanishi Susumu (1973), “ Yamanoue no Okura”, Kawade Shobo Shinsha, p.45） So it was not actually my synthesis.

By the other scholars who took part in the debate on the Toraijin theory, the opponents were often referred to as something like "scholars of ancient (Japanese) history"

• Kazuo Aoki, Okura Kikajinsestu Hihan, p.263 「憶良帰化人説関係論文の論証過程には、日本古代史専攻者にとって常識と思はれる所知見が無視されてゐる部分があり」(In the arguments in the treatise of Okura Toraijin theory, various knowledge which should be regarded as common sense for the scholars of ancient Japanese history are ignored)
• Arikiyo Saeki, Nihon Kodai Shizoku no Kenkyu p.140 「高木氏は「彼我の歴史や記録を漁ってその真偽を確かめなくてはならない責任」を果たすための適任者として古代史研究者を推している。よって本稿では…」(Mr Takagi [Ichinosuke] suggests that the responsibility of researching their history and ours to verify the facts should appropriately be performed by the scholars of ancient history, and therefore, in this paper...)
• Izuru Murayama the Title of Extraction of Okura Yamanoue p.5 「関晃、平野邦雄両氏をはじめとする日本古代史研究家が既に否定的に見られた問題について専門外の人間がふれることになるわけで…」(I we will be dealing, despite being non-expert, with a problem on which the scholars of ancient Japanese history, such as Aikra Seki and Kunio Hirano, have already expressed a negative view...)

The term "scholars of ancient Japanese history" may therefore work as well. --Dwy (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Computer Business Review

Removal of various citations because they are "blacklisted". I think CBR is a reliable source for computer history. Searching Google Books for "Computer Business Review" finds [32] some 800 citations to their stories. Someone not using his real name (talk) 14:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

User was advised to follow the bot's instructions and request whitelisting. User has advised, he won't request and that the admins wouldn't do it even if he did. Its for that reason that the sources were and should remain removed. If they are reliable then this user must request removal from the blacklist or request whitelisting. Doing neither is not an excuse, for leaving links that are blacklisted on a page. The removal of sources would not have been done pending whitelist request, if he/she showed willing to actually do so.Blethering Scot 14:45, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

No opinion on the reliability of the source, but I figure if I post this here someone might clarify for me (this has been bugging me for years): SNUHRN cites "800 citations", but when I followed the search results to the end it came up as 155. Any idea why this is? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:22, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I had only checked the first page which says "About 857 results (0.15 seconds)", even the 2nd to last page says "Page 14 of about 793 results (0.28 seconds)". I guess google overestimated a fair bit. Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:57, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I see a batch of whilelist URLs was approved not so long ago for this site [33], so I have filed for another. What was refused was a removal from the blacklist. There's nothing in WP:RS about something being blacklisted (for spam) being automatically unreliable or necessitating removal, by the way. We even have WP:BOOKSPAM issues with off-line sources. Someone not using his real name (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether reliable or not they have to be whitelisted. Thats up to you. Your the one that caused the links to be removed by refusing point blank to do anything about links being on the blacklist. However even if these are whitelisted its best to see if they are in fact reliable. Personally I think your tech social network seems a bit dubious, do all articles go through a full and proper editorial process.Blethering Scot 16:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not "your [my] tech social network". It was a printed magazine at one point that went bust like many others. (See its entry in [34]) The content has been made available online now on a site with a networking focus. Which doesn't make it unreliable for old/staff material. Someone not using his real name (talk) 16:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Where is the evidence that anything new on it goes through proper editorial. It does not seem like it. That means anything current on their prior to it becoming like this is probably reliable, however anything published now is dubious. There are far more reliable sites than this one.Blethering Scot 16:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Who cited anything "new" from it? Those RS/6000 stories are from before 2000. And even for new stuff this textbook cites a 2006 cbronline story. A 2012 CBR article is cited in this academic book. I think you need to drop the WP:STICK. Someone not using his real name (talk) 16:29, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

And for clarity, I didn't add those citations, it was User:Rilak who added them some 5 years ago [35]; he made similar edits to other similar (old hardware) articles. He has stopped editing Wikipedia around 2011, but he has a clean block log. Someone not using his real name (talk) 17:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Blethering Scot, you could have just commented out the URLs instead of removing the sources; that was done before when CBRonline got blacklisted. CBR was a respectable trade magazine when the RS/6000 was still current; it's just unfortunate that its buyer decided to spam WP at one point. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 17:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Dogwelfarecampaign.org

Cesar Millan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is a famous dog trainer but with controversial methods. This has affected the article for years. A section about a campaign against these methods backed by a number of well known organisations such as the RSPCA, Dogs Trust, The World Society for the Protection of Animals, " Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour was removed with an edit summary that it was not a reliable source.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cesar_Millan&diff=next&oldid=597205314]. I replaced it as I strongly disagree that it is not a reliable source for the campaign and the views of the sponsoring organisation, and it's been removed again. Here is the press release[36] and here[37] is a page about the sponsoring organisations. User:Dreadstar has brought this up on the talk page, asking if it is an organisation known for fact checking, etc. I don't think that's the point here. The edit itself says "In March 2010, various preeminent UK animal welfare, behaviour, training, canine and veterinary organisations issued a joint statement in which they warned against the dog training techniques used by Cesar Milan: "The organisations believe that the use of such training techniques is not only unacceptable from a welfare perspective, but that this type of approach is not necessary for the modification of dog behaviour." It's been suggested at the talk page that the organisations may not know that their names are being used, ie that the "joint press release" wasn't actually what it claimed to be. I see no reason to think that the website is not telling the truth about this. However, it's hard to find publicity for it in the media. However, I've only found [38] and a statement by one of the participating organisations.[39]. Dougweller (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

In both the bio and show articles the criticism is heavy handed, basically alleging various things he's done wrong, generally without rebuttal. Meanwhile he's wildly successful so my impression is that the criticism is a bit out of proportion and misleading. It would be better for both articles, to remove the one-off complaints that don't seem to have any traction, eliminate the controversy section altogether, and weave the one or two notable criticisms into the larger narrative. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

He's controversial in the dog training world, and that should be reflected. That's not the same world as his audience, which is basically dog handlers and dog fanciers. There are sources at the bottom of [40] that haven't been used, and there are sources in which he discusses his critics, although I'm sure he hasn't responded to each specific critic. Dougweller (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

There's a 2012 Daily Mail article where he responds to critics which includes some criticism by Beverly Cuddy, Editor of Dogs Today.[41]. Dougweller (talk) 16:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I would focus on several sentences then that distill down the most credible criticism, and any effects/responses. The ones that aren't that strong, or didn't go anywhere weaken the case. Part of the issue is that animals don't speak for themselves so everything is filtered through professionals who are often competing against each other. Much of the criticism comes from his competition, or people seen to gain some advantage by publicly criticizing him. PETA leaps on cases like this, so I'm surprised they haven't done so. Another thought is what damage has anyone actually shown? It seems like its a sharp disagreement in training styles. Meanwhile he's getting praised again and again for doing exactly what he claims to do, and his critics saying he's doing wrong in some way. This feels like a case where a few sentences … not everyone agrees with his methods … would suffice. And I think that would go on both articles. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

In this case though the criticism isn't coming mainly from competitors or individuals, although some is. I've just noticed that content critical of him has been removed because it discusses his TV show and we have a separate article on that, so the controversy section is certainly being 'distilled'. This source[42] from LiveScience (originally from Scienceline[43]) isn't written by anyone directly involved. Dougweller (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the biggest issue is that a controversy section invites POV editing, so instead merging the content into the main article would likely alleviate the issues. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I've got nothing against that, but if everything pertaining to his tv show is removed there won't be much left. Dougweller (talk) 06:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to only get rid of the least meaningful criticism, I also think a condensed but potent few sentences should go into both articles as his notability is tied to the methods. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:14, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Pablo Casals

There is currently a request for comments at Talk:Pablo Casals in which some users might wish to comment. A large part of the situation concerns establishing the common name of a person from sources outside Wikipedia. Full information is provided on the talk page. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Amazon.com search results as a source for Night of the Living Dead

Because of the public domain status, the film is sold on home video by many distributors. As of 2012, the Amazon.com lists copies of Night of the Living Dead numbering 52 on VHS, 181 on DVD, and 9 on Blu-ray.

It's there in the quote. What do people think? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

No it is not a reliable source. This is WP:PRIMARY data and has no particular significance except what the reader puts into it. This information should be omitted. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bluerasberry. Until a third party reliable source states it, it's undue. Trivia about Amazon sales does not belong in Wikipedia. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:17, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with all. Should be not be used. --Precision123 (talk) 20:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Al Jazeera piece a reliable source?

Dorje Shugden controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and other pages now uses this Aljazeera piece as a source for various claims. I notice several glaring errors, such as the number of Shugden practitioners, not to mention staged purposeful confrontations, slow motion editing to make people seem sinister etc. This is the very definition of a "hit piece". What do you think?Heicth (talk) 17:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In general Al Jazeera is one of the most trustworthy journalistic sources. Do you have reliable sources that would suggest errors or inaccuracies in its reportage? Disliking something is not reason for removing it. Simonm223 (talk) 19:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Simonm223. There's no question Al Jazeera has a reputation for fact-checking and editorial control and that we should consider it a reliable source. But it's not unheard of for reliable sources to disagree, even over the facts. When that happens, we do not decide the controversy and we do not decide the truth. We simply report the disagreement in proportion to the support each side has in the relevant sources. Msnicki (talk) 20:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Msnicki has touched on precisely the right way to treat this situation. Simonm223 (talk) 20:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

"The figure of four million worshippers for Dorje Shugden is preposterous." There are several other obvious "errors". Furthermore, they don't even mention the murder of 3 people by Shugden cultists that every academic source mentions. Lastly, its an academic fact that China fuels Shugden activity. This was nothing but a "hit piece." Heicth (talk) 21:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Al Jazeera is a reliable source - but that doesn't mean that none of these are too. And when two reliable sources disagree yes, we should probably report both, and put them in context. Watch for WP:NPOV when doing so, of course, but be bold. Simonm223 (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Please stop parroting that Al Jazeera is a reliable source. Reread my comments. Heicth (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2014 (UTC)