Talk:Main Page

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Administrators: Clear all reports

Errors in the summary of the featured article

Please do not remove this invisible timestamp. See WT:ERRORS and WP:SUBSCRIBE. - Dank (push to talk) 01:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Errors in "On this day"

Tomorrow's OTD

• 11 May - in bottom line pls tweak chron order of Zenna Henderson (d. 1983) JennyOz (talk) 07:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
  •  Done, thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the featured list

Friday's FL

(May 10, today)

Monday's FL

(May 13)

Errors in the summary of the featured picture

Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

Today's POTD

• Credit line: needs the word "credit" after "Painting". — RAVENPVFF · talk · 14:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

   Done – Schwede66 15:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

General discussion

Style problem with Wikipedia in general

A couple of days ago I reported a problem with missing style on Wikipedia (by style, I mean CSS). I am reporting that the problem still continues. It is more common during the mornings and when it happens, the browser halt waiting for a response from bits.wikipedia.org. I hope this help identifying and resolving the issue I am trying to express. I also wonder if someone else is experiencing the same problem Enrique Vargas (talk) 14:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

You'll probably get a better response at WP:VP/T than here, which is just for the Main Page. I haven't experienced the problems you are referring to. Modest Genius ^talk 18:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Remember_accessibility_for_the_visually_impaired

As per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Remember_accessibility_for_the_visually_impaired. The images on the main page are purely decorative and should generate no alt text or links Gnevin (talk) 19:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

They generate alt text and links for me. The issue may be just your browser (I'm using IE8). --72.197.202.36 (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

The point is they shouldn't generate alt text or links Gnevin (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

My bad; I should have read your post more closely. However: they should generate nothing if they are purely decorative. I suppose that the TFA, ITN, DYK, and OTD pictures could be argued to be such, but TFP is definitely not purely decorative. Besides, I have seen some cases where the pictures for the top four sections have been rather helpful to the reader. --72.197.202.36 (talk) 19:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Surely the main page section images are images and not icons? In which case we should use alt text in accordance with Wikipedia:Alternative text for images - Dumelow (talk) 20:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Well if they include alt text surely it should be helpful currently I see Princess Beatrice not that helpful Gnevin (talk) 20:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Any other comments Gnevin (talk) 22:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Just in general: thank you for bring my attention to an interesting policy I did not know, and which had not occurred to me ever to explore. --Neil (talk) 23:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

As a blind reader, I'd prefer the images on the Main Page to have alt text and a link, as they do now. Some of them convey useful info, so they're not usually decorative, and they don't qualify as icons as far as I can tell. I'd also like to know if an image is there, and if they have no link or alt text, that would be difficult. Graham87 01:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

This is exactly the sort of feedback we need - if no-one tells us there's a problem, nothing will be done. Have you found the alt-text descriptions overly terse or verbose? At the moment the DYK pic has a three-line alt description, which seems a lot, whilst TFP is described in three words, which seems rather too little for an item whose entire point is the image. Modest Genius ^talk 01:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Well said Modest Genius. At the minute, I'm getting alt text for the TFA and DYK pics, though TFA's looks more like a caption. I'm not getting any for ITN, OTD or TFP. I don't know if it's necessarily an issue for TFP though, since it has a description next to it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Graham do you always want to know if there is a image even if it's purely decoration or just in cases like this which I admit I was wrong to class as decoration and are function images? Gnevin (talk) 10:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yet again the alt text is pointless Barack Obama instead of Barack Obama as he signs into law the health care bill Gnevin (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hurricanes

There are wholly too many hurricanes as "Today's Featured Article".

Please ensure that there are no more for a very long time.

121.209.235.20 (talk) 03:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's Juliancolton who is nominating hurricanes for featured article, as he is such a fan of hurricanes and edits these type of articles a lot, making them featured articles. December21st2012Freak ^{Talk to me} at 03:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, Hurricanehink (talk · contribs) wrote this article and Raul654 (talk · contribs) selected it for TFA. I had nothing to do with it actually. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

TFA is a showcase of well-written articles. If an article is well-written, then there is no reason for not showing up in TFA sometime. As to the frequency of hurricane articles: in the past year (counting today) there have been 8 TFAs on specific hurricanes and one on tropical cyclones in general. That doesn't fit my idea of "way too much." --72.197.202.36 (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for the comment. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome. --Lucas Brown 00:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC) (AKA 72.197.202.36)

Oh come on. You cant possibly be serious. Who cares if we have hurricanes every day? Maybe it's because there are a lot of hurricanes and that is a fascinating topic. If you dont like it that way, work on and nominate more non-hurricane articles. Metallurgist (talk) 07:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

'that is a fascinating topic'? Really? I have no problem with the TFA, but that's a bizarre and obviously-subjective thing to say. Yes there is a disproportionate proliferation of hurricanes, cyclones etc. on the FA list, but that's just another manifestation of WP:BIAS. Shrug your shoulders, move on, or work on coverage of an under-represented topic. Modest Genius ^talk 19:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well there must be someone who thinks hurricanes are a fascinating topic or we wouldn't have so many FAs so I guess it's not that surprising there's one here Nil Einne (talk) 23:43, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I find hurricanes interesting. Not fascinating, but interesting. I have to agree with Modest Genius though- you can grumble about over representation of a certain topic or you can work on improving some other, under-represented topic. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I've lived with them my whole life, and I honestly don't find them that interesting. However, when I see so many on the main page, my first thought is "good job! That WikiProject is really organized and full of passionate people". Kudos to them! かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 02:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

You dont find it interesting that some wind and water can morph into a 600 mile wide well-organized super-storm? --Metallurgist (talk) 06:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Pish-tosh; I do that every day. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 00:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but how can you have a "bias" against hurricanes? –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• I believe the "bias" he's referring to is the natural systemic bias of Wikipedia being a user-created product. Namely the idea that things which attract editors are better covered than things that don't, because you need editors to improve the topic. Thus, for example, our coverage of business and technical law articles is relatively thin while our coverage of television/anime/etc is much much higher. Not bad or good, just the bias inherent to something created entirely by volunteers. Staxringold _talk^contribs 18:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Benedict XVI

Lugo is watching... Raul654 (talk) 18:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, Benedict XVI has been up for a few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 15:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

He'd probably need the American brand of health care soon. –Howard the Duck 02:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

We can use File:Google China headquarter in Beijing.jpg. --Tone 18:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi you guys. I've had an error report for ITN in for days. Please use . Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

How about we combine the above suggestions into a single hook? Something along the lines of: Barack Obama signs the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act into law while Fernando Lugo (pictured) watches. Raul654 (talk) 19:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Niiiice idea! (also why is SusanLesch so concerned about having an obama pic?) Modest Genius ^talk 21:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Modest Genius. We got a decent picture for a U.S. event. At first I asked for a picture of Nancy Pelosi. But she re-released a photo of the actual law being signed which coincidentally is done by the President. Thanks a bunch for changing the photo of the pope. (I remember when Michael Phelps won eight gold medals in one Olympics that we didn't picture him because of his U.S. connection. At least that was my impression.) -SusanLesch (talk) 22:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Err, it's been a whole 12 days since we last had a US-related picture [1], and only a handful of pictures have been used in between. There's no policy (or even bias I can see) against picturing US-related items. Modest Genius ^talk 23:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no bias and I wish people would stop going on about it. It's good that the photo has been changed. Though I disagree with Susan's reasoning, we should aim to rotate the ITN image as much as possible. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Almost time to put the pope back according to The New York Times. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

WP equivalent of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells - complaining about the images on the main page (g). Jackiespeel (talk) 14:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Lugo <3 --MZMcBride (talk) 00:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I feel like I'm missing the Lugo joke - I've seen him come up a few times. What's it about? (Answer on my talk page if necessary.) — Kurr 23:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

In the news

As a Democrat, I deeply resent the implication of today's text-and-photo juxtaposition that Barack Obama is "an unknown type of ancient human." This seems racist and certainly highly POV politically. Sca (talk) 15:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Although the image doesn't refer to the first ITN item, we could compromise by putting the Pope back up. He's both old and still listed on ITN. 147.72.72.2 (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

ITN readers are not necessarily door knobs who can not figure out that the picture is for item that says (pictured). i dont think there is any need for compromise. its fine as is. will get replaced soon by some new blurb anyways. -- Ashish-g55 17:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

While it is true that those who complain about this aren't taking the time to really examine the ITN section, it is also true that it's design is contrary to what experienced readers have been taught by the entire history of Western publication. I found it jarring the first time I looked at it, because the text and pictures were not related to each other in a logical manner. In all print media pictures are placed next to text that refers to the picture. While wikipedia is not print, it is silly to discard useful design principles. Instead of insulting anyone who finds the current situation confusing or even just strange, perhaps some time should be spent on redesigning the section. Khajidha (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The above statement is so utterly untrue that it is laughable. Throughout the vast majority of the history of printing, images had to be separated from the text to which they referred, as images were so much more expensive to reproduce. Physchim62 (talk) 23:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• The problem is ITN is in chronological order by update. Unless that gets changed (which would make it far more confusing, both in order and in updating) the proposal to always have the image correspond to the lead story would disqualify any ITN update that didn't have an image to go with it (as it would be the top story, but would have no image). DYK doesn't always have the pictured lead at #1, I believe. Staxringold _talk^contribs 18:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

(EC) Khajidha - Perhaps some time should be spent reading the FAQ and/or archives before proposing something which has been discussed to death? Nil Einne (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

So, the fact that it's been "discussed to death" by a handful of Wikipedians means there is no other possible way of doing things? — even though that means that millions of viewers/readers/surfers around the globe may be confused/bemused/amused by it? End of story? Sca (talk) 18:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

No. However the discussions do explain why it hasn't been done. The 'some time' part is perhaps key. If you can redesign the template including making it work on common alternative main pages an in all main browsers and then go thorough the other alternatives and if it doesn't work, either fixing it or making them use the traditional alignment (a setup which requires two templates and each one has to be manually updated is unlikely to be acceptable) as well as devising something for people who transclude the template on their individual user page etc then when you bring it here I'm sure it will get widescale acceptance. However as long as people just say 'it should be done' and blame others for it not being done and no one bothers to actually do it, I doubt anything is going to happen since it will almost definitely require 'some time'. Personally, I don't care that much (& don't understand the intricities of complex templates nor am I web designer), so I'm not volunteering but since you and Khajidha do, why don't you do it? That's my point and yes and as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of story. (Until someone actually does it rather then starting another pointless discussion of something that has already been discussed to death, that'll be the real end of story, sadly I've participated in enough of these discussions to know people are all concerned when it comes to talking about it, once you ask for people to actually do it, they go quiet.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the section could use a redesign (how about getting some date stamps in?) but that it would have to be an organised process that takes a significant amount of time. If this particular instance is such a big deal, surely the simplest solution would be to have "(pictured)" in bold? Shouldn't be able to miss it then. --.:Alex:. 19:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Bold is reserved for the focus article in each item. "Pictured" is already in italic. And why are we not assuming that people are able to read? --Tone 19:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Putting "(Pictured)" In bold was done once. I don't think it lasted two days before everything was back to normal. Personally, I liked the bold, because my eye always catches on the picture first, so I want the "Pictured" to be really obvious so I can go from image to related blurb as easily as possible. Sadly, IIRC, most people just found it distracting. APL (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done This talk page is here to take suggestions on improvements, not to defend to the death every template and/or bad formatting decision we make. Another blurb with a free image will come along soon enough; in the meantime, we're fine without one. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 19:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

While I disagree with removing the picture, it seems to have been done already. You left the "(pictured)" though, which should be removed. (cross-posted to errors section above). Random89 20:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed even before this was posted. Thanks, though. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 20:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I have to say that this is quite possibly the most extreme case of political correctness I have ever seen on the internet. Removing the image of Obama, because when it is taken together with the completely unrelated item next to it, it may be seen by an absolute minority of people, as racist, is quite frankly remarkable!

As an aside, whatever happened to the principle of WP:NOTCENSORED. I mean, a couple of people take offence at what is quite clearly an issue of their own mis-interpretation and all of a sudden we start changing what has been done since I can remember. Aside from the fact that there is nothing to be offended at, since when has there ever been a precedent to alter something on the main page on the basis that someone doesn't like it (as opposed to the normal issues that relate to grammatical and formatting issues and factual inaccuracies) --Daviessimo (talk) 21:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with removing the image; this is nothing but appeasement of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. There's no way any reasonable person who bothered to read the section would think we were being racist. Modest Genius ^talk 21:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have restored the picture. I don't want to get into any WP:WHEELWAR but I really can't see the perceived insult here. More importantly there was no consensus that removing the picture was the next step to take - Dumelow (talk) 21:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Unacceptable. Saying you don't want to start a wheel war doesn't cut it - you just did start a wheel war. Not even so much as a note on my talk page. I have not been unresponsive at all. Self-revert, or I will take this further. Consensus is not required for removal of a photo, and it does not support undoing another admin's actions.

WP:NOTCENSORED has nothing to do with this. If you want to talk about WP:NOT, let's talk about WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY. Someone had a reasonable concern—shown to be reasonable by the fact that none of us are mystified by what he/she was referring to—and the only arguments for keeping the photo revolved around syntax, formatting, and esoteric template norms. All of that stuff should be ignored if it improves the encyclopedia, which it did. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 21:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Fine, I have better things to do than get into an argument over this. I briefly replaced Obama with the Pope but as far as I can tell if there is a problem with one person being adjacent to that blurb then it remains if another is there. Frankly I find this whole thing ridiculous but I'm sure some intelligent discussion here will resolve it - Dumelow (talk) 21:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

(EC)The problem here is that after loads of requests (and normal accusations of ITN being anti-american) Obama picture was added. It was not even the first item when this was done. So the reasoning behind the removal doesnt make sense. I agree with Daviessimo that this is simply political correctness. If pope was up there (which was suggested earlier as compromise) then then would not have happened. No one here was trying to be racist or implying that Obama is some ancient human and removing the picture for this reason (when i dont remember this happening in past) is whats wrong. It inaccurately supports the notion that ITN infact was being racist. -- Ashish-g55 21:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Anyone who knows me knows I'm hardly a bastion of political correctness. And I tend to agree with everyone else that it's really not a big deal. But the reasons for keeping it are every bit as weak as the original complaint. Weaker, really, since they all have to do with Wiki process rather than readership. We should be focused on what our readers want, not what's easier for us (or what we're used to seeing). Someone up there even refused to budge on whether we could use a bold font, for heaven's sake. Come on, guys.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time ITN has been without a photo. Ashishg55, you yourself pointed out that the photo would be replaced soon enough by some new blurb, and the same holds true for the lack of a photo. Don't Panic. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 21:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, what about changing the order of first two items? Abel prize was announced on the same day so it can be on the top. Would you still oppose having an image in the box in that case? Frankly, that's highly ridiculous, not having an image if there are images we can use. The only case when there's no image is in TFA, when there is no free one available. --Tone 21:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I actually dont mind making (pictured) bold. but then it should be bold in all 4 sections. since OTD runs into similar problem. -- Ashish-g55 22:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

That John Tate sure lux lots like Mister Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.203.12.240 (talk) 22:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Tone, you're still focused on the bureaucracy of it all. What we would normally do as far as formatting and syntax is irrelevant to our readers. Losing the photo is only ridiculous to the handful of us discussing it here; the rest of the world isn't grinding to a halt in shock. 99% of our readers won't even notice that a photo should be there. And it was up for a day, when the story was relevant - it really adds little or nothing to the section at this point. Wheel warring isn't helping your case. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 22:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I am just trying to find a compromise for the time being. The thing I see is that people do not like to have no image in the box and that a combination of the previous first item and the image is seen weird by some other people. We are having those problems relatively rarely and until something better comes up, a compromise seems the easiest thing to do. --Tone 22:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Some people don't like not having an image there. Main Page regulars, to be specific. None of it excuses the wheel war. See you all at ArbCom. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 22:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm rather confused by this whole discussion. This obviously isn't the first time we've had a complaint, I don't recall we've ever gone to the extreme of completely removing the picture. And even when we don't get complaints, the lack of synchronisation happens quite often. Is Kafziel trying to set a new policy that we remove the picture when it's not for the top item? If so, this is hardly the way to go about it. If not, I see no rhyme or reason for this removal.

This hardly even seems the worst incident, what about the times when we've had a picture of someone and the top item has related to some sort of terrorist attack or shooting or court case relating to something like that? If anything, it seems to me offensive that we made this case special, as if there is any logical reason why people would associate Barack Obama with a type of ancient human and not instantly recognise the items are unrelated, particularly since Obama is well known thoroughout much of the world.

It seems to me when we have some relatively unknown person and entry on something criminal act or whatever, that's far, far worse since it's much more likely that people may think that person was somehow involved. As it stand nows, we're associating John Tate with a picture of Barack Obaam. In the unlikely event someone really doesn't recognise that as Barack Obama, this is surely offensive to John Tate (not because there's something wrong with being associated with Obama but because he isn't Obama and deserves to be recognised for who he is, not some other random person), again far worse then the earlier juxpiction.

In fact I don't even think this is an over PC reaction, rather we're giving (even if unintentionally) heed to racist ideas by suggesting there is some merit to the idea there might be real confusion when in reality any non-racist person, even someone who doesn't know Barack Obama is going to recognise that's a picture of a modern human being (note I didn't even mention race, it's irrelevant), not some ancient one. And yes, I do think this wouldn't have occured if it was a picture of the current pope.

Also what wheel war? Dumelow made several changes but all self reverted. Tariqabjotu is the only one who made a reversion that he? didn't revert. (I'm not counting Tone who attempted to alleviate the problem by compromise, some may argue he/she should have achieve consensus first, but some may say the same for the unilateral removal.) While not a good look, given the unilateral and completely out of process removal of the picture, it hardly seems a terrible thing.

BTW, while I appreciate if the dates of the items are the same, it's somewhat arbitary which one is at top and winning the Abel Prize is a significant achievement so don't have a particular problem with this change of order, it would be problematic if we set a precedent to automatically put higher up the item with the picture or if neither has a picture, put one where it's somehow deemeded less offensive to associate the item with the picture.

P.S. Is there some sort of scientific survey of our readership that just came out where people said they would prefer no picture to a picture of Barack Obama next to unassociated items and the item of Barack Obama below? If not, I'm confused how Kafziel knows what the readership wants. Is he/she psychic? I do know we get complaints all the time about the lack of pictures on TFA.

Nil Einne (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

^Good post. It does seem to me that Kafziel has come in and tried to change long-standing policy without discussion, and then cried wheel-war (and ArbCom!) when the MP regulars have objected. In the discussion above, those arguing for removal seem to be in a minority of two; consensus is clearly against them (so far). There was no good reason for that picture to be removed, and it should not have been removed until there was a clear consensus to do so. Modest Genius ^talk 00:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

My kids aren't home, so somebody ask someone unfamiliar with guidelines, what it looks like when a story about lower life forms is illustrated with a picture of Obama. I bet they'll say it's vandalism. (To me, liberals are lower life forms regardless of race, but I still wouldn't have posted that.) I'm happy with the mathematician on top; I can't think of a non-bureaucratic objection to that. Art LaPella (talk) 00:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm generally supportive of Obama's actions and saw no problem with that picture next to a news blurb about an ancient human. (Current placement's fine too.) It was obvious to me that it relates to the news that begins "U.S. President Barack Obama signs..." and it's showing him signing something.

What about a slight coloring around the image and news blurb? TransUtopian (talk) 01:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, My biggest complaint with Mr Obama is that he isn't liberal enough, but I still had a moment of confusion when this complaint came up, and am honestly surprised that the complaint was taken seriously. I see now that it isn't, but I initially assumed it was one of the intentionally nut-ball complaints designed to troll the admins. (Such trouble-causing complaints turn up regularly on Talk:Main_Page.)

(If it makes any difference, I browse the main page at a reasonably high resolution, so that the entire ITN and usually all of OTD are visible at once.) APL (talk) 01:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought the problem was that Obama was black and therefore there might be some suggestion from the juxtaposition that black people are lower life forms. But, obviously, if the acceptance of this interpretation as sufficiently feasible to require the removal of the image is not in itself racist, at the very least it is recognition that people with such racist predispositions do exist. And, to be honest, I fail to understand why we should be considering that group when writing this encyclopedia. -- tariqabjotu 02:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The initial complaint struck me as so far-fetched that I mistook it for a joke. But it comes across as far more sensible than Kafziel's apparent assertion that an administrative action is sacrosanct, with any reversion (irrespective of consensus or the lack thereof) automatically constituting wheel-warring warranting an ArbCom case. Good grief. —David Levy 03:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is not determined by who can shout the loudest. Opinions are not negated simply because they are posted by anonymous editors; you and I have been over that before. And consensus is absolutely by no means required to remove content. It is required to keep content. If you think for one second that I need your permission to correct potentially libellous (or even unintentionally offensive) content, by all means take it up the chain. Good luck. Go ask Jimbo whether he thinks we should sit around debating before fixing it. Go ask ANI. Let's hear it. Let's hear how the simple removal of a photo is such a massive travesty that it called for edit warring and all these personal attacks.

As for the wheel war: Editing any fully protected page is an admin action. Undoing that action once—which I did, by removing the photo—is permitted. Undoing that action (which both Dumelow and Tariqabjotu did) makes it a wheel war. End of story. That's not my opinion, that's the policy. I'm not interested in getting anyone desysopped over this, but sometimes these things find their way to ArbCom on their own. Particularly when they happen on the main page. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 04:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations. This is the single stupidest "complaint" I have seen on T:MP for some time. If people are too stupid or too lazy to scroll down and read "(pictured)" we shouldn't be accommodating for them. You can't go crying "wheel war" or arbcom because somebody a reverted a poorly judged but good faith edit. Images on ITN and OTD are not and do not have to be related to the top item. We don't have a free image of the newly discovered species so there isn't one on the MP. That doesn't mean we should remove the current one and disregard consensus on grounds of political correctness brought up by Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. Kafziel, you made a mistake, you were reverted, as happens all over the wiki thousands of times a day and just because you're an admin doesn't exempt you from that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Stupid. Lazy. Crying. Yup, these arguments get more and more mature. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 04:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

i believe the words good faith are in there somewhere too -- Ashish-g55 04:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

So anyone can say whatever they want, as long as they also say "good faith"? Is that how you think it works? Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 04:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

i am not trying to say how it works but merely suggesting that you should assume some good faith on part of reverting editors. if not then atleast try to understand the reason behind revert instead of labeling it a wheel-war and waving arbcom around like a threat... -- Ashish-g55 05:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

1. I'm baffled by your reference to anonymous editors. When have I ever stated that their opinions don't count? And how does this even relate to User:Sca (the non-anonymous editor who posted the complaint)?

2. I wrote nothing about anyone needing my "permission" to do anything, nor did I claim that your removal of the image was "a massive travesty." I've merely criticised your response to the reversion of your action, which I regard as overblown. "See you all at ArbCom"? Is that really called for?

3. I disagree with your interpretation of the events. The issue of disparity (and mistaken association) between the section's top item and an unrelated image has been discussed on several occasions, with consensus always being that this isn't highly problematic (because we identify what's "pictured") and no format changes should be made to address it.

So my interpretation is that the initial administrative action of direct relevance was your change from having an image to not having one (based on a concern repeatedly opposed by consensus).

But please understand that while I disagree with you, I'm not deeming your view invalid. I'm pointing out that this is far from the cut-and-dried instance of administrative abuse that you make it out to be (or anything remotely warranting an ArbCom case). —David Levy 05:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem was not simply another instance of the common "photo not depicting the top story" complaint. And Sca may have started this thread, but other IP users posted here with identical objections. Essentially, they said "This is conceivably racist and offensive", and they were told "too bad, luck of the draw, that's how we do things". If you feel that's an adequate response, there is a serious problem here.

All I did was defuse a possibly offensive situation, and almost every editor on this page immediately went off the deep end. I'm not even going to bother going through to count all the instances of regulars calling other users variations of "stupid" and "lazy". I'm comfortable with every one of my actions, and wheel wars automatically warrant an ArbCom case - again, not something I made up. If you think what any of those editors said and did was defensible, let's head on over. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 05:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

"All I did was defuse a possibly offensive situation, and almost every editor on this page immediately went off the deep end." Perhaps that should indicate that you might have been over-zealous? And that those who are disagreeing are not insulting you by doing so? Modest Genius ^talk 18:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

1. In addition to the "photo not depicting the top story" issue, previous discussions have specifically addressed concerns regarding potentially problematic associations.

2. Can you please direct me to the identical objections posted here by IP users? I was unaware of their existence.

3. Your statement went beyond this situation:

Opinions are not negated simply because they are posted by anonymous editors; you and I have been over that before.

To what were you referring? That seems to imply that I've made such a claim in the past.

4. I don't condone the "stupid" and "lazy" remarks. Note that you haven't seen such comments from me.

5. I think that all of the pertinent template edits (including yours) were defensible. I don't understand why you apparently find it preposterous that the other editors even could reasonably perceive their actions as anything other than blatant wheel-warring. —David Levy 06:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

1. Previous discussion isn't binding for current circumstances. And I'm sure you'd agree it's not reasonable to expect anyone (except Main Page regulars who were here when it went on) to be aware of some obscure, archived discussion that may or may not have set a precedent.

2. The objection that first caught my attention

3. You and I have discussed at length the issue of main page regulars discounting the opinions of newcomers. At the end of that conversation, I said, "I think the best possible outcome for all of this is that maybe a few regular editors will take a more proactive role in making sure rules like WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE are followed a little more closely." Clearly I was wrong. Even before I removed the photo, regulars were stating that anyone who was confused was a "doorknob" and that "Perhaps some time should be spent reading the FAQ and/or archives before proposing something which has been discussed to death". Lurk moar is not a civil reply to anyone.

4. Appreciated, as always. Your input came hours later, unfortunately. Not everyone here made personal attacks against the complainants and myself, but almost everyone did. I was particularly shocked by Modest Genius's immediately uncivil remarks that "ITN looks stupid" without a picture (the policy basis of which I can't seem to find) and that there was "no way any reasonable person who bothered to read the section" could possibly be confused. An editor who is normally quite reasonable and eloquent became absolutely outraged... over the removal of a photograph? Clearly some people have a serious hot-button about censorship—probably most of us, actually, or we wouldn't be editing a free encyclopedia—but censorship this was not. If Obama was found to be a lower form of life, and I removed that from the main page, that would be censorship. This was correcting what boiled down to a formatting faux pas. We're not censored, but we can still have a modicum of journalistic integrity in our layout.

5. Anyone was free to disagree with me; I was answering the objections with civility, appealing to reason and Wikipedia policy.[2][3][4] But there are specific exceptions to WP:WHEEL, and disagreeing about photo placement is not one of them. If an editor breaks 3RR, even if he is also participating in talk page discussion, it is still a violation of the edit war policy. The same goes for wheel warring. In fact, in this case, neither of the admins participated in the discussion at all beforehand. The first time Dumelow posted was to admit his error and self-revert. Tariqabjotu never explained his action, either here or on any other talk page. I feel I should also clarify, for those who do not know, that the first undoing of another admin action (in this case, it was me undoing the addition of the photo, as you pointed out) is permitted. It's the second revert—Dumelow's and then Tariqabjotu undoing Dumelow's self-revert—that made it a wheel war. That's a fact. Wheel wars go to ArbCom. That, too, is a fact.1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6

Now, as I said earlier, I'm not interested in anyone being desysopped. But I'm also not willing to see new users (or old users, for that matter) bullied by regulars. That behavior is always explicitly denounced after the fact, but tacitly accepted while it's happening. Even after your polite suggestion that HJ Mitchell apologize to Sca, did he do it? No. So what's to come of all this? If the answer is "nothing", and we're just to sit and wait for this to be "archived" again, then I think there is a serious problem here. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 00:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I really have to respond to this. I was particularly shocked by Modest Genius's immediately uncivil remarks that "ITN looks stupid" without a picture (the policy basis of which I can't seem to find) and that there was "no way any reasonable person who bothered to read the section" could possibly be confused. I don't understand why you think I wasn't being civil. I wasn't calling you (or anyone else) stupid or unreasonable. I thought the layout looked poor. Admittedly 'un-aesthetically pleasing' would have been a better way of putting it, but it still looked bad. As for the second quote, I stand by it, and don't think any reasonable person who read the entire section would think ITN was implying that Barack Obama was of a different species to modern humans. I was not implying that the complaint itself was unreasonable, but that anyone who actually drew that conclusion, rather than merely noting the possibility that others might, would have been acting unreasonably. Oh and if you insist on being bureaucratic, the relevant policy is located at Wikipedia:In_the_news#Images: "One and only one image shall be included on Template:In the news at any one time." Modest Genius ^talk 01:28, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, David. That was the point I was trying to make, but you made it much better than I did. This has been blown out of all proportion and is getting truly absurd. I suggest we archive this and move on before it gets even more ridiculous. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

So you show up 8+ hours after the fact, call me "stupid", now declare my position "absurd" and "ridiculous", and that settles it? I think not. And if you think David condones your insults, I think you're very much mistaken. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 06:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Kafziel is correct on this point; I don't condone those remarks. —David Levy 06:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

My apologies to you, David. It was far from my intention to imply that you endorsed my remarks. Kafziel, if you had bothered to read my posts, you'd know that none of the words you misquote above were directed at you. I said "This has been blown out of all proportion and is getting truly absurd. I suggest we archive this and move on before it gets even more ridiculous." I also said that you made a simple mistake and that you were acting in good faith, but you chose not to quote those. It's a shame that you persist in taking this so personally, but I came here to express my opinion on this thread in the hope of participating in a sensible and rational discussion. Your refusal to accept that anybody who disagrees with you could even believe they have a point is unhelpful, as is misquoting me in order to advance you own position. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 06:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

You don't owe me an apology, but I suggest that you apologize to Sca (and others with the same concern) for the "too stupid or too lazy" comment.

I agree that your 05:29 post wasn't explicitly directed at Kafziel, but I can understand why he may have genuinely interpreted it that way (particularly given your tone above). After reiterating your assumption of good faith, it isn't helpful to accuse him of intentional distortion.

I urge both of you to calm down and try to be more considerate of each other's position. —David Levy 07:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request

{{editprotected}}

86.121.35.96 (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors if you found an error on the Main Page, as it said on the top that putting {{editprotected}} on here will not give you a faster response. December21st2012Freak ^{Talk to me} at 00:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Need selection process for Selected anniversaries

DYK and ITN have selection processes, things that aren't done up properly aren't allowed on. With Selected anniversaries there is no formal process, and while there are 365*(5-6)=1825-2090 slots available, much less than the number of FAs/GAs and articles that passed A-class, most articles on SA were just put there with stuff of far lower quantity. Maybe we should ask people to go put their FAs etc on there; I say this because today Operation Searchlight is on there, and is unwikified and is largely sourced to involved Bengali army officers, and one of the contributors, admin Ragib (talk · contribs) is putting it back in there, citing WP:OTHERCRAP arguments YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Just to note, there is a kind of parallel discussion taking place here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

For now, the OTD rules are more general, flexible and subjective. The selected article only has to be "a relatively complete and well-formatted article. In other words, it should be a good example of Wikipedia content". There are also other factors into the selection however, including trying to vary events from different centuries, different regions of the world, and different subjects.

Now, if your definition of "a relatively complete and well-formatted article" is strictly A-Class or above, that's fine, but also keep in mind about the on going systemic bias on Wikipedia. If such a strict formal requirements were enacted, it may prevent extremely notable events such as the current B-Class article Attack on Pearl Harbor from being posted. It may prevent many notable 18th Century or earlier events from being posted. It may prevent many non-Anglosphere events from being posted. And it may prevent significant events from underrepresented subjects from being posted. This is why there has never been strict, formal requirements on OTD.

Also, if "we should ask people to go put their FAs etc on there", keep in mind that many of these articles out there like Free will are not really tied to any event. Thus, IMO, finding at least a few FA/GA/A-Class articles to post every single day of the year on an "On this day..." section would be almost impossible. Now if you want to replace OTD with a featured GA/A-class section, that is another option. But as the flexible OTD rules currently stand, the "well-written article" rule must also be balanced with other factors like the question, "is it tied to a notable event with an exact day when it occurred?" and the "array of topics should be varied" rules. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (talk) 08:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore there is long precedent that the main page defers to article. In this case, Yellowmonkey has alleged that the article has major problems, yet made no effort to tag the article nor mention it in the talk page. I consider this unacceptable. How on earth are editors of the article expected to know of the alleged problems? How on earth are they expected to deal with these problems sufficiently for the article to be allowed on the main page in the future? Do they have to negotiate directly with Yellowmonkey over this?

In case it's not obvious, one of the additional problems the way this has been dealt with raises is that even if editors somehow become aware of Yellowmonkey's complaints, how they deal with them is uncertain, there are existing processes for dealing with tags but in this case, it seems that all we have is Yellowmonkey's claim on some obscure talk page (from the POV of the article editors) that the article has major issues, how other editors are expected to satisfy YM is unclear and many would feel it's unjustifiable that a single editor is able to hold up another article no matter what, it's definitely not the way WP:Consensus is intended to work.

Also Ragib makes a very good point. If it is alleged that this article does not meet the criteria of being well written (or for that matter some new criteria), then a comparison with other articles currently listed is legitimate. Whether or not Yellowmonkey should have done some cursory check of the other articles before unilaterally removing it may be worth some discussion somewhere, but the main point now is that claim have been made by someone who has done some research. If it is true that the other articles are just as bad or worse, then removing this single article while keeping the others without a good reason sends a very poor message, particularly given the natural systemic bias that already exists. Removing all the articles would be disruptive. In other words, keeping this article for now may indeed be the best solution.

What to do in the future should be discussed and if people want to be stricter in the future that would be fine provided it is universally enforced and some clue be left on the article as to what's wrong with it. If that requirement is that all future articles should be GA-class or better then while we can easily implement that, it definitely needs wide spread discussion first, with notification on multiple talk pages. Personally as with Zzyzx11, I'm unconviced on the merits of such a proposal.

BTW, I'm not opposed to some resonable selection criteria for SA/OTD. For example, I opposed the inclusion of Guru Nanak Jayanti because even though it may be one of the most important festival in sikhism, the article is simply not sufficient (at the time, it didn't even have the dates!). However it was already tagged and while in retrospect I should have linked to some of the main page discussions in the talk page (I have now) I did make an additional effort to call editors to improve it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sikhism (sadly unsuccessful) rather then just claiming it had major problems on some obscure talk page (again from the POV of the article editors).

Nil Einne (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, can we try to respect the truce line that runs down the Main Page? Bureaucratic and editor-intensive selection processes to the left, more informal selection processes to the right??!! Let's not forget that OTD gets significantly more click-throughs (both in total for the section and per individual hook) than DYK, so it can't be that bad, otherwise people would just ignore it. YellowMonkey's comments smack of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, to be quite frank. Physchim62 (talk) 15:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree SA/OTD shouldn't be limited to A/GA class articles, for the reasons discussed above. What about copying the rules for bolded articles from ITN? Lack of references, shortness or orange- and red-level article warning tags would then disqualify an article from inclusion. This has the advantage of being fairly simple, if someone is prepared to check the items a day or two in advance of appearing on the MP. Modest Genius ^talk 18:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I think an informal system along those lines is already in place. If you look at the OTD pages – which can be freely edited for most of the year – you find several entries that are commented out for article quality issues. Physchim62 (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, but I believe YM was calling for some formal- and standard-isation of that system. Modest Genius ^talk 01:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe so as well, but I think any such changes should be approached with caution. Would we actually get any benefit from them (over and above what we already achieve through WP:ERRORS)? Because there is a definite cost in volunteer time. Physchim62 (talk) 01:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

True, but even if no additional sweeping was performed, the operation of WP:ERRORS could be streamlined by the existence of a clear pass/fail criterion. It then becomes easy (in theory) for someone to report a problem, and for a passing admin to verify it and replace the item. No idea whether that would actually work in practise mind! Modest Genius ^talk 02:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks!

I'm quite shocked that my comments yesterday about juxtaposition in ITN have been deleted. Sca (talk) 17:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Talk:Main Page. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 18:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

They have been archived. and im not sure if your welcome comment is meant to imply that comments get deleted from main page talk. if it is then its not very helpful. -- Ashish-g55 18:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I too am rather confused as to why they have been archived, when the discussion was clearly ongoing. Only threads which have ceased to be discussed should be archived, and the bot does that already. Modest Genius ^talk 18:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

i think someone archived it because the talk wasnt going anywhere and was getting offtopic... normally it should be archived with a blue box if its ongoing. -- Ashish-g55 18:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Howcheng archived it. While well-intentioned, such an act rarely is a good idea, in my opinion. Abruptly halting discussion—however controversial—doesn't solve anything. At best, the underlying tensions are suppressed from view (but likely will reemerge at some point). At worst, the conflict might even intensify. —David Levy 19:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to revert me if you want. howcheng {chat} 22:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I've brought it back out of the archive: it was barely 24 hours old after all. Physchim62 (talk) 23:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I do appreciate that.

Alas, I am not a techie, and cannot myself redesign the computer language to achieve one of the following two possible solutions:

1. Linking the photo and the text which it illustrates, so that as the text moves down the ITN column, the photo would move, too. or...

2. Making the lead ITN item the only item which is to be illustrated by a photo.

As an old (62) newspaper editor, I think these are the only real solutions to a problem that contravenes logical practice in nearly all media, past and presnt. Thank you for your consideration. Sca (talk) 00:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that something has to give somewhere. For example:

1. if we make the photo move down the list, we lose the symmetry of the Main Page layout. We don't always have full symmetry, as we cannot always illustrate the "featured article" which occupies the top left corner, but usually we manage something.
2. if we say that the illustrated ITN story is always the top story on the list, we lose the chronological ordering of stories. In fact, we do sometimes tweak the strict (minute-by-minute) chronology to move a story with a picture up the list a little bit, although we try to keep the day-by-day chronology correct.
3. we could also simply not include images in the In the news section – they are rarely great pieces of photojournalism after all – but then of course we lose the image and the Main Page becomes a little more of a "wall of text".

The one thing that we can't do is the solution that a commercial newspaper might adopt, which is to go out and buy an image from an agency. If we're lucky, we can get a photographer to take one for us and give it to us, but that sort of luck only comes around pretty rarely for news stories. Please don't think I'm defending our current solution as ideal – indeed, we get frequent and amazingly varied complaints about the image on In the news, although I must admit that the idea that we were suggesting that Barrack Obama is a newly discovered and probably extinct species of humanoid is a new one. The layout of the Main Page is a compromise between esthetics and "content", as is the case for any media, past and present. Physchim62 (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I too don't really like the way the picture doesn't lie next to the relevant item, an issue which also occurs in the OTD section. However, I've yet to see a working suggestion of a better layout, that still looks good and works on multiple resolutions and platforms (including mobile browsers). If someone comes up with one which is superior to the current status quo, I'll immediately support its adoption. Modest Genius ^talk 01:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I wish President Obama would just go ahead and discover a new species of hominid. That would pretty much resolve the issue.