Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Archive 2

A large portion of this original RFC, which editors are now discussing, was moved to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Archive.

Phase I of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people is now closed. This is Phase II of the WP:RFC on dealing with unsourced WP:BLPs.

Instructions in a nutshell

Please give your input at one of the closing proposals:

1. About declaring a consensus for stronger teeth against new unsourced biographies of living people -- Proposal Part 1 -- Agree -- Disagree -- Neutral -- Discussion
2. About declaring numeric goals to reduce the number of old unsourced biographies of living people -- Proposal Part 2
3. About not changing the relevant policies -- Alternate closing proposal

For more information, please see the Q&A on the talk page.

For related material, please see the /Archive, the #Table summary below or the talk page.

Table summary

submission	submission time	subject	Support (S)	Oppose (O)	Neutral (N)	%Support (%S)	Stance
MZMcBride	15:58, 21/01/2010	"Any biography that is poorly referenced or completely unreferenced should be deleted on-sight. If a user wishes to re-create the biography, they may request undeletion (or simply re-create the page) as long as they provide adequate sourcing."	55	157	1	25.94%	Stricter 0 days Delete immediately
Jehochman	16:14, 21/01/2010	Any article that satisfies the attack page criteria should be deleted on sight. Biographies of living persons (BLP) articles that are unreferenced should be proposed for deletion (prod). Prodding should proceed at a reasonable rate to allow interested editors the chance to add sources. The volume of proposed deletions should not be unreasonably large. Discussion can establish what is a reasonable pace. After five seven days, any article so tagged may be deleted, or moved to the Wikipedia:Article incubator if it shows promise. Prod notices should not be removed, nor should articles be undeleted, unless proper references are added. Anybody who engages in mass de-prodding or undeletion without adding references risks a block for disruption. All editors are invited to participate in this BLP cleanup campaign.	163	35	8	82.32%	Stricter 7 days
Jclemens	16:22, 21/01/2010	"The risk reduced--and let's be clear, there certainly will be some--is insufficient to justify the widespread deletion of accurate, useful, and innocuous information, sourced or not, and ultimately damages Wikipedia without helping BLP vandalism subjects."	83	14	1	85.57%	No change
Collect	16:16, 21/01/2010	"Existence of a person is not, however, controversial nor contentious. WP has policies for deleting articles lacking notability, and no Draconian policy of automatic article deletion should pre-empt the orderly functioning of processes already existing."	83	20	4	80.58%	No change
David Gerard	16:17, 21/01/2010	"I suggest a PROD-like template - call it BLP-PROD - which says "Find references for this article or it DIES." Five days seems too long, make it two days."	64	48	1	57.14%	Stricter 2 days
DGG	17:10, 21/01/2010	"For old articles, a procedure of summary deletion is particularly reckless."	66	6	5	91.67%	No change
Power.corrupts	18:12, 21/01/2010	"The real problem is unsourced contentious info, not unreferenced articles. The proposal will do nothing or little to the real problem, and at the same time incur tremendous costs."	48	15	0	76.19%	No change
Sandstein	19:25, 21/01/2010	"The arbcom motion is not to be understood as changing or superseding general deletion policy and process as applied to the biographies of living persons, and it should be considered void if and insofar as it might have been intended to have that effect. Instead, any policy change should be decided by community consensus, starting with this RfC."	75	6	3	92.59%	N/A
Jimbo Wales	15:14, 25/01/2010	"Starting with everything which has been unreferenced for more than 3 years, a three-month notice time starting February 1st, before they are deleted on May 1st. 2. Starting with everything which has been unreferenced for more than 2 years, a three-month notice time starting May 1st, before they are deleted on August 1st. 3. Starting with everything which has been unferenced for more than 1 year, a three-month notice time starting August first, before they are deleted on November 1st. In all cases, biographies deleted for being old and unreferenced should be put onto a list for those who wish to come behind and work on them further. After that, we can consider how long is a reasonable life span (I would say one week, but one month could be fine as well) for new biographies to exist in a sad state before they are deleted.	36	25	5	59.02%	Stricter 7 days to 30 days
Aymatth2	13:39, 24 January 2010	This proposal is to create a mechanically ranked list of all unsourced BLPs, so editors who want to remove inappropriate articles can work up from the bottom of the list, and editors who want to retain valuable content can work down from the top. Obvious ranking criteria would be: Positive: Number of inbound links, number of unique editors, size Negative: Number of days since creation, number of days since last edit The values would be given weightings in a ranking formula such as: (inboundlinks x 100) + (uniqueeditors x 150) + (sizekb x 50) - (agedays x 1) - (lasteditdays x 0.5)					Technical
Henrik	16:24, 21 January 2010	"A significant minority of editors are unwilling to let unsourced, but likely uncontentious biographies remain in the encyclopedia. Deleting content makes the text available to only a select few, and makes fixing the articles a significantly harder process. I suggest an alternative to tackle the backlog of the roughly 50k articles in question: We institute a process to hide the contents of unsourced biographies, using a template developed for the purpose. We provide clear instruction that sourcing must be instituted before the template is removed (easily checkable by automated means) Those articles which have remained in this hidden state for a reasonable, but fairly long, amount of time, but which have not been fixed are deleted. This allows us to work towards preserving the content of these articles, while maintaining respect for the potential harm unsourced biographies may cause."					Technical
WereSpielChequers	16:57, 21 January 2010	Earlier this month User:DASHBot started gently chiding the authors of unsourced BLPs. I think we should wait a couple of weeks to see what effect that has on Category:All unreferenced BLPs, or if people want to give DASHBot a hand, look for retired/inactive/blocked users who DASHBot has spoken to and help them fix or delete their unsourced contributions. ...can someone write a Bot to inform wikiprojects of unsourced BLPs in their remit in the same way that DASHBot has been informing authors?" ...introduce "delete new unsourced BLP" as a speedy criteria; provided that we very clearly inform article creators that from a particular date this is the new rule, and that articles created after that date with information about living people must be reliably sourced. ...proding the unreferenced residue in batches over a couple of months ...I agree with delete unsourced BLPs on sight as the policy we should be able to enact in say 6 months. But with the following provisos: An unsourced biography should at the very least have its history checked to see if reverting a bit of vandalism won't restore it to a referenced article. Good faith contributions should never be deleted without the author being informed and given an easy route to getting their article restored for their next editing session. We also need an exception for articles being restored and referenced - some sort of template such as prod that can be added to a restored article so that the person requesting its restoration has at least a few hours to do so. Any user should be able to request, and any admin permitted to restore an existing article deleted under this process, provided the requester is promising to reference the article ASAP.	31	9		77.50%	Stricter Technical
NJA	16:53, 21 January 2010	reduce the time from five days devise a special PROD template specific to BLP's so that it can have a specialized category for monitoring and tracking (using NOINDEX) set out to add an edit filter to track BLP PROD template removals, as is currently done for CSD template removals for easier admin tracking	10	19		34.48%	Stricter 5 days
The Anome	17:11, 21 January 2010	Any bot activity...will need to be intensively supervised by humans for some time to avoid serious loss of useful articles...numerous articles are currently tagged as unsourced BLPs when they have references	10	2		83.33%	Technical
Resolute	17:59, 21 January 2010	...Wikiprojects can help. User:WolterBot has a function that generates a cleanup listing by project. Using tools such as this allows the community to break the overwhelming scope of this issue down into manageable sizes. If we repurpose this function as a mandatory listing for all projects - either as a one time run or a quarterly listing - we can at least begin to tackle this problem.	35	7		83.33%	Technical
Themfromspace	19:03, 21 January 2010	"holding tank" for all uncited BLP articles. This could be a separate project space altogether, or the subpages of a WikiProject. Each uncited BLP would then be automatically moved out of the mainspace to this holding space where it would not be indexed by Google. Each of these articles would then be considered a work in progress (and could be tagged as such) until they were moved back into the mainspace.	6	10		37.50%	Technical
Arthur Rubin	19:16, 21 January 2010	Any deletion by an accelerated process...should, after deletion, restore a (locked, if needed) stub...The stub should not be deleted for 6 months, unless a non-accelerated deletion procedure is followed.	22	7		75.86%	technical
NuclearWarfare	19:53, 21 January 2010	I would submit that the community cannot fully trust administrators who violate the BLP policy.	18	27	1	40.00%	N/A
OrangeDog	20:00, 21 January 201	Unreferenced articles on notable living people that contain no contentious material (including, but not limited to a large number of stubs) should be treated the same as any other article, noting that they provide useful information and provide a mechanism for the encylopedia to grow...I do not see any reason to create new deletion processes to circumvent or abuse those that we already have. Especially not ones that involve automatic and unsupervised mass deletion.	26	7		78.79%	No change
Hut 8.5	21:46, 23 January 2010	"I propose that we set up a wikiproject to source unreferenced BLPs."	21	0		100.00%	Technical Unanimous support
User:MickMacNee and User:Ikip		Anger at history of RFC					N/A
User:HJ Mitchell		Generally similar to Jehochman, except: Mass drive-by prodding would be discouraged and attempts should be made to limit the number of "BLP prods" at any one time to ~1000 A log should be created where editors must record the removal of "BLP prods" after proper sourcing or report others who improperly remove the tag (similar to special enforcement)	12	1			Stricker
User:LeadSongDog		"immediately...wp:userfied to the creating editors space by a bot, much in the way of user:CorenSearchBot's handling of gross copyvios"	7	3			Technology Userfication
User:Looie496		"No articles should be deleted using automated tools."	37	1			Technology
User:Balloonman		"...create a tool that can notify these projects and key editors what unsourced BLP's exist under their purvue. "	28	0
User:Balloonman		"modify the template for unsource blp's so that they are not indexed"	6	8
User:Jake Wartenberg		unwatched BLPs should be indefinitely semi-protected.	13	1
User:Rd232		Unsourced BLPs should be incubated after a time (or in some cases userfied).	11	8
User:FT2		creation of a "Draft:" namespace	11	5
User:The-Pope echoed by User:Cenarium		Make it known that this is the site's current main priority...get Wolterbot to change the order of the cleanup list to highlight what are the real problem areas, and which ones are "nice-to-haves" (ie MOS type ones). Get ALL of the projects on board. Get a bot/code/something quicker and smarter than me to auto-generate the lists based on the intersection of Category:Unreferenced BLPs and Category:WikiProject XYZ articles It needs some smarts, cause the project cats are on the talk pages, but the unreferenced BLPs are on the main pages, but I can do it for a project at a time using WP:AWB, so it must be able to be done. Then create a Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/Unreferenced BLPs page for EVERY project. Update the list daily. Hold a competition to see who can zero their list the quickest - winner gets money/fame/links on the main page for a month/etc. Create a hall of fame for most removed each week.	14	1			Technical
User:SirFozzie		Find something you can live with, and find it soon. Show that you can be part of a solution, and not just a part of a discussion of a problem. Sitting down and not accepting anything will mean that the situation will just go on without you.	14	17			N/A
User_talk:Mod_mmg	08:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)	Any change to policy needs more consensus than this. Give editors a chance, they will all references in their own time, all BLPs are works-in-progress as long as it remains a biography of a living person and not a dead one.	3	2	?		Give the editors a chance to rectify any referencing issues before you charge on with the deletion proccess!
User:Johnbod		Why Unreferenced BLPs are NOT problematic	21	4

Summary of Phase I

Phase I closing summary

This has been one of the largest and most complex requests for comment within the community for some time, with 470 editors producing over 200,000 words of commentary. The majority of views and comments are clearly the result of thoughtful contemplation on the part of editors who have taken the time to inform themselves of the issues, and everyone should be applauded for considering this matter seriously. Those who have taken part have the best interests of the encyclopedia and the project at heart, and there is a good deal of merit, based on policy, practice and practicality, in each of the major positions put forward. It is also important to note that the majority of those who participated did so relatively early in the RfC, and are unlikely to have reviewed some of the later views and proposals; therefore, it is not possible to accurately assess consensus on these views. After reading this RfC, I can say categorically that Wikipedians are dedicated to the ongoing development of a comprehensive, accurate, and constantly improving encyclopedia; however, there are very diverse views on how this can best be achieved.

There appears to be a broad consensus that:

• Unreferenced BLPs are only a small segment of potentially or actually problematic BLPs.
• There are reasons to place additional emphasis on the sourcing of BLPs, and that this category of articles is more sensitive to inaccuracy than others (although opinions on the degree to which they are more sensitive was subject to a broader spectrum of opinion).
• Deletion decisions should be made with human input, and should not solely rely on technical methods.
• Article creators, wikiprojects dedicated to improvement of unsourced BLPs, and wikiprojects dedicated to various topics should all be alerted to the existence of said articles, and be encouraged (and supported) in sourcing them. Several views discussed methods in which this information could be disseminated, some of which have already been put into place, and there was no significant opposition to this position.
  • Related to this was some discussion of whether there should be a significant site-wide campaign to involve a larger segment of the editing community in a BLP-sourcing project, which also did not meet with significant opposition.
• A smaller number of individuals pointed out the difficulty of maintaining and improving the constantly-enlarging encyclopedia while the number of regularly active contributors has remained relatively static in recent years; this view, while not very widely discussed, did not meet with significant opposition.
  • In this same vein, others pointed out that quality expectations have changed significantly over the years, and that there was no simple method for editors to identify articles they had created and/or significantly edited which required referencing. Prolific editors who have remained active over several years are just now discovering the extent to which they are being asked to improve and reference unsourced BLPs, many of which were created some years ago.

The three major positions presented were:

1. Mass deletion of all articles identified as biographies of living people that had no reference sources, with varying views on how this would be accomplished. Most related views implied that all unsourced BLPs would be deleted over a very short period (days to weeks), with minimal or no attempt to improve the articles.
2. No change in current deletion practices and no special deletion practices for BLPs, with most related views supporting sourcing unreferenced BLPs or at a minimum reviewing them to ensure they were properly categorized
3. Special PROD processes for BLPs, with widely diverse opinions on duration that articles would remain prodded, criteria for de-prodding, and the number of articles being prodded at any given time.

Related to all three of these views were concerns about how to best manage the reviewing of unsourced BLPs to (a) ensure they were actually unsourced, (b) prevent overloading of the relevant processes, and (c) prioritize which (subgroups of) articles would be reviewed, with soft or hard deadlines for various checkpoints, and a clear objective for completion of the reviews.

Consensus

Of these three broad categories of views, there is a surprisingly clear consensus that some form of BLP-PROD is the preferred method of addressing unsourced BLPs. The majority of opposition to each of the views proposing a BLP-PROD variation related to the length of time an article would be prodded (which ranged from 2 days to over a month), or some other factor specific to that proposal. A notable but small minority opposed the basic concept.

There was also a robust consensus that a separate process should be developed to address newly-created unreferenced BLPs, in order to prevent further accumulation of unsourced BLPs; however, fewer editors commented specific to this point, which arose in several views.

Objectives for Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Phase II

• Develop consensus on the details of a BLP-PROD process, most critically on the duration of a BLP-PROD
• Develop a timeline with specific objectives to ensure that the current backlog of unsourced BLPs is reviewed and improved or otherwise addressed. Factors to consider include how to prioritize subgroups of articles within the process, development and centralisation of tools and resources for editors to identify and improve articles, and methods to involve the larger editing community.
• Develop consensus on standards for newly-created BLPs. Factors to consider include tools and processes to support new editors, integration of the process with new page patrol, and time frame for sourcing of new articles.

It is clear that our editing community has started to address the issues raised in this RfC, as several tools have been developed to assist editors in identifying and improving these articles; the number of unsourced BLPs has already been reduced by more than 10%. Continued effort to involve and support an even broader segment of the community should be considered an important priority; several communication tools have been discussed in the RfC.

Please address any questions or comments on this close to the adjacent talk page in order to centralise the discussion. This close is submitted under my own signature, independent of any other offices or permissions I hold. Risker (talk) 03:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any such consensus on further steps. This closure should be retracted and the idea of a new Prod postponed until it gains consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please note: Phase I was improperly closed, and only one position was advocated, which was against the agreed upon intentions of closing this RFC for phase II originally. Okip 12:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Stop beating the horse, as its dead already. Scottaka UnitAnode 13:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:POT Okip 13:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
    • That doesn't even make any sense -- which probably shouldn't surprise me coming from you. I'm not the one who's been posting tl;dr screeds about this issue. As such, I'm not sure you understand what WP:POT even means. Scottaka UnitAnode 02:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Phase II

BLP PROD process drafting

Establish the details of a BLP PROD process. This should probably be based on Jehochman's view (the variation on that theme which had by far the most support) as a baseline for discussion. However a process of this type has already been drafted at Wikipedia:Deletion of unreferenced BLPs, and moving discussion there to develop that proposed process would save time and energy - as well leaving more space for discussion here in this RFC of the other issues. Rd232 ^talk 11:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Details from Phase 1

This is the detail of the proposal made by User:Jehochman.

1. Any article that satisfies the attack page criteria should be deleted on sight.
2. Biographies of living persons (BLP) articles that are unreferenced should be proposed for deletion (prod).
3. Prodding should proceed at a reasonable rate to allow interested editors the chance to add sources. The volume of proposed deletions should not be unreasonably large. Discussion can establish what is a reasonable pace.
4. After five seven days, any article so tagged may be deleted, or moved to the Wikipedia:Article incubator if it shows promise.
5. Prod notices should not be removed, nor should articles be undeleted, unless proper references are added present. Anybody who engages in mass de-prodding or undeletion without adding references being present risks a block for disruption.
6. All editors are invited to participate in this BLP cleanup campaign.

The major objections to this were:

• The WP:PROD process should not be altered, so some other name should be used
• It is open to abuse
• The timeline is not specified
• PRODding should not happen without an attempt to source the article
• Article editors need to be notified of a pending deletion
• Quality of references to be added is unclear
• Some editors disagree with deletion as a solution altogether

These objections will need to be addressed in order to create a broadly supported policy, and as Rd232 suggests, Wikipedia:Deletion of unreferenced BLPs is probably the best place for this to continue. Kevin (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

New vs. Existing PROD process.

I would favor using the existing PROD process, with the flexibility for any editor to remove one or several PRODs in good faith. Like the traditional PROD process, the next step is for the PROD nominator to see if the problem still exists, and send the article to AfD if it has not. If we have general consensus to use a PROD process, then mass-PROD-removal would be considered disruptive, just as it is today. Jclemens (talk) 04:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

WT:PROD got nearer rejection than acceptance of changing PROD in the necessary way (to prevent removal of tag without adding sources) as totally contrary to the spirit of PROD. I suggest the way forward would be to list Wikipedia:Deletion of unreferenced BLPs on WP:CENT and develop that process based on Phase I discussion (which it's very compatible with), leaving open the possibility that the process so developed can be merged as a special section of PROD. (I doubt that would be acceptable, but the point is it needn't be settled now.) Rd232 ^talk 16:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The seven day period wait is ridiculously short, it is the same as zero. Editors who create unsourced BLPs *in good faith* are probably newbies who have not yet read the guidelines, cannot be expected to check their watchlists every day, will not quite understand what the prod means, and will not be able to respond to it in that time frame. So the handling of those BLPs will have to be done by experienced editors who are willing to take time from their personal wikiprojects to do community service. Source-or-die is basically a hostage situation: "either someone does what I want done, or I will kill the work of a random newbie". Since the tagger must at least read the article before tagging it, we can assume that attack pages have been speedily deleted and potentially problematic contents has been deelted. In that case, allowing the BLP to live for another month or another year will be a negligible risk, will avoid lots of bad feeelings, and will actually mean *less* work for everybody in the end. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 17:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Newbies who actually create an article tend to come back and see what happens, I think, on a short time scale of hours/days, when BLP-PROD tags would be applied. In any case it is not merely "source or delete" - articles may also get incubated, with the creator getting a notice. Articles will live at least a month in the incubator, and there's no reason we couldn't agree longer timespan for incubated BLP-PRODs. Rd232 ^talk 21:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Well if the asking rate is high, I think some people, including established editors will just put in fake sources, or add a ref at a end of one paragraph but it only covers the last part of the sentence. People try this all the time at FAR and hope that a reviewer will just see a cite at the end of the para and assume everything is accounted for, when it usually isn't. And it's enough to catch a lot of people. I wouldn't be surprised if heaps of people did it everywhere else either, especially if they then go and cite a non-English book that nobody could catch onto. Once I even saw someone reference an uncited FA by circularly referencing a copy of Wikipedia somewhere and sometimes even cutting and pasting a copyvio to solve the BLP unsourced. Unless people get down to basics, rules are pretty irrelevant, let's be frank, many rules on Wikipedia are just used selective to operate a caste system; eg one guy (admins) deleting sourced info that they don't like and citing BLP even though it was sourced to a newspaper, because the info didn't suit them, because undue weight or whatever, true or not, then they go and rv some guy who blanks uncited negative info, eg criminal behaviour by an opposition politician. People shouldn't be fooled by metrics as lots of people have and continue to make wiki-careers by gaming stats and making themselves look better. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 07:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Please people get off the idea that deleting articles, deleting USEFUL INFORMATION is a solution to anything. As Jorge said, read the article. If you doubt the veracity of the content or the sources, look at other sources, look at other articles. If it checks out, ADD the references yourself. We have to assume anybody who has found their way into this discussion is sufficiently experienced in wikipedia editing to know how to do this. If you can't find anything, then there is probably something wrong with the article. Take the article up on NOTABILITY grounds, through AfD, publicly in the ONE PLACE that is already there for people to look at, analyze and discuss problematic articles. In the week that this article goes through all that analysis, a bunch of people will read it, attempt to source it and it won't die needlessly from the neglect of a newbie editor. The AfD process is too fast and abusive as it is, but at least it has some chance in public. Through two months of this RFC, it should be clear to anybody but the incredibly dense that there is no draconian solution any better than what already exists. What needs to change are the habits, the laziness of the complainers. Instead of taking 5 seconds to edit in a PROD that could lead to the deletion of the article, spend a minute and source the thing. You've saved the article, you've saved the controversy. If people would do this stuff instead of inventing more layers of abusive administrators, we will be left with a relative handful of problem articles that can go through the system meat grinder like vanity articles, useless frivolity and Stephen Colbert articles.Trackinfo (talk) 23:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Details from Phase 1: an alternative view

This should have been included weeks ago, when this RFC was improperly closed and only one position was advocated:

This is the comments made by User:DGG, which received the highest proportion of editors (91.67%):

For old articles, a procedure of summary deletion is particularly reckless. Of course we should we should work on them, at the pace at which we can manage it, with the special problem that the author is generally no longer be around to help. What I think is extremely dangerous is people nominating them or any article for deletion without first looking for sources, because it takes no more work to try for basic sourcing. We might even have a priority category for "I tried, but further help is needed." -- that's the sort of think I'd like to work on. What is even more dangerous is deletion without looking. As a related example, let me give the 40 prods of this nature I worked on in the last two days, about 10 were easily sourceable. About 5 were a real challenge--for some I too needed some help to do it right--and trying and not succeeding with them is not something anyone should be blamed for. The other half I decided could not be sourced in any reasonable way, or were so unlikely I at least wasn't going to bother, and I let them stand. But since they were prods, anyone else could look at them and try. Frequently I see ones I've given up on done easily by someone else. Some of the ones I found easily were ones where I can understand another person in perfect good faith might not think were likely enough to be worth the bother. That is the reason summary deletion is inappropriate--there are only a few special classes of things where one or two people can securely decide. Among the articles listed for deletion, and which could be deleted under the proposed ruling was one which was easily verifiable that the person was an ambassador, and one a member of a state legislature--things said on the face of the article. . In both cases, it took about a minute to source them. With respect to the arbitrary deletions we are concerned with, I note what Rebecca said above--deleting an article that is on its face probably notable without checking is about as destructive to the encyclopedia as one can get.

The offer to undelete on request in ludicrous as a solution--for most editors cannot see the articles to tell. For those of us who can, we would of course be able to check and see if we could source, and undelete if we could. I certainly would not undelete in this circumstance unless I could source, But relying on a few of us to check is only practical if the people deleting are more responsible than some of them so far have been.

Okip 13:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to Close This RfC

Ok, based upon the comments on the talk page to my summary, I propose we close this RfC. I'm going to break my proposal to close into two parts. The first part deals with items where I feel that consensus has been reached. The second part deals with a compromise solution proposed on the talk page. For purposes of dates, I used March 1 as the end date for this RfC.

Part 1: Items where consensus seems to be clear

The first part being issues which I think the consensus is clearly defined. In supporting/opposing this, please do so based upon whether or not you agree/disagree that consensus supports the item in question---not whether you agree or disagree with it.

1. An acceptance of a "sticky" BLP-PROD for new unsourced BLP's written after the close of the RfC.
2. An acceptance of some sort of policy/guideline change to indicate that we expect new BLP's to have sources or they may be deleted. (I use "may" because somebody else may add a source or it may not be found.)
3. We want to recruit as many people/projects as possible to this clean up effort. This could include, but is not limited to, contacting projects directly, asking the Foundation to put a banner on the page, making announcements in Signpost, having a "clean-up" blitz, etc.
4. We do not want the clean up effort to be a haphazard mass deletion spree.
5. We want/need time to make this clean up a reality.
6. Many of the existing BLP tagged as "unsourced" are not problematic in that they actually do contain sources.
7. Many of the existing unsourced BLPs do not harm WP in that they are factual and neutral, but because they deal with living people the expectation is shifting related to sourcing.
8. Any proposal to speedy delete unsourced/poorly source BLP's has been rejected. This does not negate already existing criteria for CSD.
9. Any notion to automate deletions of old unsourced BLPs has been rejected.

Again, I am not asking if you agree/disagree with the above summary, but whether or not you agree/disagree that consensus seems to support the above.

Part 1 Agree

• Agree - good summary. Seems to be clear consensus. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree as nom---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Balloonman per: Consensus is forming: an alternative view why didn't you include Bearcat's proposal which was the most popular proposal from phase II which can be summed up as:
    "I'm not entirely convinced that we actually need to create a whole new layer of bureaucracy and regulation here."
    Isn't many of your points simply a repeat of Jclemens proposal, which was soundly defeated by almost a two to one margin? There are many other questions I have about the validity of this consensus, which are on the talk page. (refactored out repetitive sentence)Okip 14:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Simply because Bearcat's proposal had what 16 supports, when weighed against the 163 supports for Jehochman's proposal in phase 1 (which I strongly opposed) Bearcat's proposal comes up far short in overcoming that proposal.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 03:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I addressed this before, then refactored it out.[1] Unlike the way in which yourself and Risker advocated only one position, both table summaries which I gave showed ALL positions. In the first round, Risker ignored Jclemens proposal, Collect's proposal, and DGG's proposal, which came after Jehochman's proposal. DGG's proposal had the most proportional support (91.67%), "deleting an article that is on its face probably notable without checking is about as destructive to the encyclopedia as one can get". If you take Jehochman's proposal (163), against either Jclemens (83) and Collects proposal (83), you get 66% support. Despite Risker advocating only one position, ignoring the intention of phase II, the highest proportional position was Bearcat's. It is a sad commentary on this proposal that editors have to go to such lengths to manufacture consensus.Okip 11:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Mlpearc (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree; this much at least seems clear. NW (Talk) 23:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
•  —  Paine (Ellsworth's Climax)  23:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• --KrebMarkt 23:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• These all seem quite clear. Resolute 23:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• yup--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• - Philippe 23:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
• I can live with this. ϢereSpielChequers 00:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Fully agree. Jogurney (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. THF (talk) 00:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• That does appear to be the consensus --Jubilee♫clipman 01:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree J04n(talk page) 03:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• agree and I think the onus is on anyone who signs saying they disagree, to show WHY they think consensus isn't clear on these points, not just claim that it's not. ++Lar: t/c 03:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Kevin (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Good job, RxS (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree though it's unfortunate that this is about where things were 2 weeks ago. I and many others much earlier put up almost identical summaries but were all drowned out. A few sizable concerns aren't addressed, but that doesn't change the fact that I endorse this summary as a proper review of consensus. Let's get on with it, people. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 05:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• This resolves a good deal of the main issues. Mr.Z-man 06:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. Pcap ping 06:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, but very disappointed that the one thing that can happen now, #3 above, has still been left in the hands of a few users and projects. Wolterbot hasn't done a cleanup list since December (not his fault, relies on the database dump). NOT GOOD ENOUGH. WP:Aust had 1652 listed then. We have less than 600 today. There have probably been 10-20 editors working on this for the past month. It takes me 5-10 minutes to do an update, or 20-30 minutes to do a fresh generation of our working list. Time that could done by a bot, but the only botmaker who was interested in currently banned. Lists of unreferenced BLPs from June 2008 don't interest me. Lists of unreferenced Olympians, or Engineers, or Politicians might. We don't need an RFC to do this, just some proper emphasis to be applied from above. Or is it really not that important to those running the show?The-Pope (talk) 06:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - This seems to be what we've agreed on. Let's move forward. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 07:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - but only as long as the perspective: not asking if you agree/disagree with the above summary, but whether or not you agree/disagree that consensus seems to support the above, is not lost.
• Agree seems to be supported by most (if not fully be me!) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• OK at least this helps us move in the right direction. Dougweller (talk) 14:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Wish that we could say more towards good sourcing, but of course, allowing anyone to edit Wikipedia will always let a few idiots in. Sceptre ^(talk) 14:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, though I wish that #1 applied to existing articles as well as newly created ones. Deor (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Looks about right. Some of it may not be so agreed upon yet though. Brambleclawx 18:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with points 1-5 and 9 in part. The others are unnecessary commentary and could be dropped, but are harmless. For #5 it doesn't matter if many or few do flagged BLPs contain sources, the proposal will deal with it either way. It doesn't matter whether sourced BLPs are problematic or not, that is beyond the scope of this specific proposal. For #7, it doesn't matter whether an unsourced BLP is harmless or not, we'll source it either way. It doesn't matter whether expectations shifted, this is a decision going forward. For #8, I think we agree that some special action is needed for new unsourced BLPs, and consensus isn't clear yet on the specific process. For #9, if you mean bot-driven or unconditional, yes, in approving this proposal we're rejecting a completely automated deletion process... but it is "automatic" in the sense that if a BLP cannot be sourced, it will get deleted, period. I don't think it hurts anything to add these points, but I think we have consensus even if people disagree with them, because they don't change the outcome. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. PeterSymonds (talk) 20:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, wish that more could be done to have a timelined PROD, but consensus has not been for it. — Coffee // have a cup // ark // 21:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree   pablo_hablo. 08:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree as a alternative, because it is actually nothing more than a restatement of current policy. For point 1, the devil will be in the details, and I see "sticky" as not necessarily meaning more than the option which will always remain, to take a prod to AfD on the grounds of being contentious, and that's enough of a check on misinterpretation in either direction. For point 2, it is exactly statement of current policy, so I don't know why it was worded as a change. I don;t think any of this actually necessary, but nothing is in the above that would make things worse, or prevent the current improvement from continuing. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - And share Coffee's opinion here. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 19:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - This throws some stuff out and some stuff in, seems to be a pretty fair compromise which I will sign-up to. Camaron · Christopher · talk 19:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Okay Jehochman ^Brrr 19:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - primarily because using ordinary PROD has too low a visibility. I think that BLP PRODS should be included in deletion sorting (e.g. anything NZ related would then appear on my radar) and where possible, pages should be tagged with appropriate wikiprojects. I would see 7 days as a minimum, 14 preferable. dramatic (talk) 21:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Concur - not seeing any reason that this needs to stay open, and I agree with the read on consensus.-- Bfigura ^(talk) 21:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed. Why not? Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
• Yes, it's a working solution. ThemFromSpace 23:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Buckshot06 (talk) 23:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• 'Agree with minor reservations about the "stickiness" of the new "BLP-PROD" category allowing that in some cases it may be improperly applied, and that in those cases it ought not be "sticky". Collect (talk) 23:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• This seems to be accurate. Santa Claus of the Future (talk) 00:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree that these seem to be to be agreed upon, and that they are part of the proper way forward. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree especially with sensitivity to not deleting items in haste, while still supporting existing deletion critera. ejly (talk) 03:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Sole Soul (talk) 10:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree in general. Fram (talk) 11:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. JamieS93^❤ 14:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Aye. —ShinyG (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree that this seems to be an accurate reflection of consensus to this point. - Peripitus (Talk) 21:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with DGG that mass deletion of old articles for lacking the current style of references is extremely reckless. I have been participating here for five and a half years. When I started we didn't use the more rigorous and robust references we use now. Articles then generally used naked inline references, or merely had an external links section. I started, or was an early contributor, to a number of biographical articles that would not be considered referenced by today's standards. And recently some of those articles last worked on four or more years ago -- articles on perfectly notable individuals -- were nominated for deletion. I think the over-hasty nominations of those articles is the kind of mistake DGG is warning against. In all of those instances converting or updating the references was, in fact, trivial. An article may not have been worked on for four years not because it was "abandoned", but rather because there have been no new developments to include. Geo Swan (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Cla68 (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. Not entirely with all of these individually (depending on how implemented) but they are reasonably well supported. Sam Blacketer (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. I don't necessarily agree with the everything, but this does seem to be the general consensus. Yilloslime ^T_C 00:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree this was my sense of what people were leaning to in the initial RFC, there were individual differences in each of these, sure, but overall, a desire for a longer timeframe, a warning on new pages, and something similar to BLP-PROD seemed to be the sway of the discussion. --Lyc. cooperi (talk) 00:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree I can accept this -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 00:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree There does see to be a concensus to the specific bullets mentioned. BLP seems to have clear value in Wikipedia, and the histories of BLP pages seems to support (for the most part) the nine bullet items listed. Alvincura (talk) 01:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. Quantpole (talk) 09:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree as summarized. --Magicus69 10:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 13:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - However there currently exists no means to spot that newly created articles are BLP and no machine system could make this determination. Simply requiring that no account create a new article until a week after that account has made an edit that did not get rolled back would help a lot with this. Established users would be creating the BLPs and so have them on their watchlists for changes. Hcobb (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Concur with consensus, whether I not I believe all the terms are good for Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Ditto on Hcobb. rkairis (rkairis) 19:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, taking all the pros and cons into consideration, it seems this compromise solution is acceptable to the majority of the community—to rectify a very serious concern without unduly burdening editors. It simply implements more effectively our core content policy of verifiability where it is most needed.  JGHowes  ^talk 22:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree reasonable compromise platform. Johnbod (talk) 02:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, seems to nicely sum up the general consensus. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - looks right to me. Good summation! - Alison ^❤ 03:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 03:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree on only these points. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Without going back and re-analysing every point, this does pretty much sum up the situation in accordance with my understanding -- Boing! said Zebedee 03:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - a proper summary of community consensus. Nifboy (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Very reasonable proposal and well thought out. David Straub (talk) 03:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Very good summary of the consensus. LK (talk) 04:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree Consensus seems clear (and for the record I don't agree with everything in this summary but I think it is clear that as a summary of what the community believes it is pretty clear). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - This much makes sense (broadly) and so has drawn broad support. Details can be ironed out later. User:LeadSongDog come howl 05:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Voceditenore (talk) 05:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with minor reservations: Wikidemon, above, gets at most of them, and I do not believe the summary to be as neutral as it could be, but it is close enough, and as someone else said, this does move us in the right direction. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 06:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Part 1 Disagree

• Strongly Disagree with 1 and 2 only, for several reasons:

  First, Balloon's claim of consensus is simply not the case. Yesterday Ballonman posted a "consensus is forming" section on the talk page, which ignored some of the most popular proposals.

  Second, the harm some editors claim that unreferenced BLPs have is so out of proportion to the reality, that this unreferenced BLP danger promoted here could be called a hoax. There are much better, collaborative, less disruptive solutions to solving unreferenced BLPs, which editors have been working on, resulting in 10,000 less unreferenced BLPs.

  Third, Without any new bitey new rules and bureaucracy, the number of unreferenced BLPs has dropped, from 52,760 to 42,512, over 10,000 articles removed from the list. No new bitey rules are needed.

  Fourth how do we reconcile Balloonman's proposal, which at this writing, has 23 supports and does not mention the BEFORE requirement, with the WP:BEFORE proposal which has 19 supports above? I think there would be wider community support if a before requirement was put in, I may support such a proposal also. Also Bearcat's proposal, which has [2] the most popular proposal here? Okip 11:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The WP:BEFORE proposal has 19 supports and 16 opposes, it would be a bit of a stretch say that "consensus is clearly defined" there. Mr.Z-man 19:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. Gosh, the same folks who've been pushing this think they see consensus they agree with. Shocking. I certainly hope we get a formal proposal out of this and have a site-wide discussion about that proposal. Wearing people down!=consensus. If you think it does, let's hold a formal vote. Hobit (talk) 18:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, if you look at my stances, particularly in round 1, I have been opposed to the careless CSD/BLP-PROD positions. The above summary is one of what is the forming consensus here at the RfC---not my stance. As for Okip's pointing to Bearcat's proposal... you cannot disregard about 200 people who supported the BLP-PROD proposal from the first part of this RfC. Those supporters far outwiegh the few who commented in round 2 that no change should be made. We can't ignore part 1, as part two had the objective of focusing on the issues identified in part 1, not to override it. I view it as a success that round 2 clarified that we don't want BLP-PROD to be widely accepted on old BLP's.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 08:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
    • This is simply not about BearCat's proposal. Unlike the way in which yourself and Risker advocated only one position, both table summaries which I gave showed ALL positions. In the first round, Risker page protected the page, and ignored Jclemens proposal, Collect's proposal, and DGG's proposal, which came after Jehochman's proposal. It is a sad commentary on this proposal that editors have to go to such lengths to manufacture consensus. Okip 12:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Give the editors a chance.Mod mmg (talk) 08:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Disagree. I came here from a note of my talk page saying 60,000 articles are going to be deleted...  ! I see this as further evidence that the deletionist editors have further taken over wikipedia, one of the reasons why I edit wikipedia much less than I used to. What is the point of putting in the effort to improve articles when there is a substantial chance they'll just be deleted and all that work of yours and others goes straight down the drain? I'm generally against very large number of deletions in one fell swoop. We already have tools for that, via AfD etc... Mathmo ^Talk 11:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

  I'm confused by this comment, since you're disagreeing with the forming consensus which explicitly states any proposal or notion to speedy delete, or automate the deletion of, any articles has been rejected. Are you disagreeing with these statements (i.e., that you feel there is not a consensus to protect these articles from deletion), or is this a blanket disagreement for the entire RFC? I'm thinking it's the latter, and I'd suggest this is a poor way to get the point across. The RFC as a whole has moved past the point of "do we need this discussion?", and is much nearer completion. I think if you look closely, it's not as bad as you think - 60,000 articles are not at risk of summary execution, for example. --InkSplotch (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

  This part of the proposal only addresses NEW BLPs, it does not address the 60K articles that you were notified about. And then, it will only delete after a week with a BLP-PROD, which for a newly created BLP should be more than enough time to get sourced.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 17:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Ooooooh it will only delete after one week. That's good? What is everybody's fascination with deleting articles? If you find the need to delete an article, any article, do it on the grounds we have already established. In other words, let it stand the test of notability. Run it through the already existing AfD. At least there, it will get some attention--a few people will actually google the name and find some information on a subject they don't know and understand. Most articles THERE get improved by nature. Don't set up a separate location to run your deleting process through in a separate super secret location that most people, even some people, might regularly check. Vocal as I have been, I've been having a hard time finding any of these consensus proposals to get behind because hidden under the surface, someone is still trying to invent new and devious ways to delete more articles. You do not seem to understand, most editors don't understand any of this stuff. They will never understand it. You can't MAKE THEM understand it. All they will see is the results of your destruction. And it will piss them off.Trackinfo (talk) 21:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Whatever happened to WP:AGF? The thrust isn't to delete the new articles, it's to get them sourced right up front so that less effort is wasted by deletions. The mechanism selected is secondary, but that goal of getting the new articles off on the right foot is beyond reproach. User:LeadSongDog come howl 05:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Disagree. The introduction of new articles to the Wikipedia should not be difficult (reverted at the first step), living persons or not. If some of the articles do not follow requirements, administrator may be in a good position to spread the word among those (editors or groups) who can make it better. And, if several people who state some expertize in the field, have grounds to refuse and recommend deletion, then do it. After all, networking is what Wiki is (was?) about, no destruction. --Tar-ba-gan (talk) 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Please see the instructions at the top of the section. This isn't about what individual users prefer, but what we have consensus on through the 2 parts of this RFC. Mr.Z-man 15:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Disagree User:Mr.Z-man has it nailed. DES ^(talk) 02:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree although it looks too late to actually look at what ideas actually have consensus at this point. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. These proposals are too restrictive. Bryan Hopping ^T 03:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Very strongly disagree. These proposals are not consensus; they never were. They are an echo-chamber effect propduced by an erroneous closure of part I and a group of Concerned Ctizens agreeing with each other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Part 1 Neutral

At the moment, this page has consensus about what this page has consensus about. :)

But I'd like to suggest that this proposal to close remain open for a few days (such as through Monday).

Doing so would lessen any potential bias based on time. It would give more opportunity to hear from the self-proclaimed forgotten majority.

To some degree, we are ending where we should have started, with Balloonman's suggestion to align policy with deletion proposals (I recognize that we have some disagreement about interpretion of current policy).

But any tightening of standards should consider Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Content. Maurreen (talk) 12:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I also support some of Okip's points in the Disagree section. I think I would accept Prods that required WP:BEFORE. Maurreen (talk) 12:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The proposal has some merit. But I am unhappy that it is self-reinforcing (by asking, "Do you agree that other people have agreed?). Oh, well. Maurreen (talk) 21:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• If I'm reading it right, the purpose of this page seems to be determine whether we have consensus that there's consensus. What's next: a page to determine if there's consensus that there's consensus that there's consensus? This thing has gotten way out of control, and just trying to follow the logic (?) of it requires a commitment of time and energy that imo would be better put into article-building and -improving. Whether there really is consensus here will likely be debated long and hard regardless of the immediate outcome of this RFC. Two things continue to bother me about the entire debate about unsourced BLPs:

1. It's clear that a sizable number of editors believe current policy to be woefully inadequate, although I'm unaware of any concerted effort having been made to address the problem within the confines of current policy.
2. The presumption is that the problem is urgent, although the gravity of the problem has never been adequately documented, afaik. Other than some high-profile screw-ups (e.g., the premature "death" of Ted Kennedy, where the current system worked quite well), is there any record of harm done and on what scale?

I keep encountering dire threats of Jimbo or the Foundation acting if we don't, to which I say: if the situation is half as dire as the general presumption goes, then they should act preemptively. In other words, if defamation of living persons is happening frequently and blatantly in Wikipedia articles, community consensus shouldn't be required to deal with it. If the defamation is already widespread here and hasn't been dealt with by the Foundation, then what the hell is the rush now? Rivertorch (talk) 19:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Point 1, I disagree with the fact that there is a consensus for BLP-PRODs, that was someone else's conclusion of a very confusing early process. That said, I'm willing to compromise my principles to accept that the oligarchy will get their enjoyment out of putting more of these defacements on legitimate articles they don't understand or don't want to take the time to improve. There should be a requirement that any editor placing such a prod must have made a reasonable effort to solve such a sourcing problem BEFORE placing such a PROD. We have plenty of discussion/consensus as to what those steps should be. What I find unacceptable is the unmentioned recourse if the PROD remains for any specific amount of time.Trackinfo (talk) 06:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Part 1 Discussion

• This is mostly a "fix" direction, and I'm worried about it lacking preventative measures. I know there's a "new unsourced 'may' be deleted" above, but even that isn't digging out the deepest roots: Educating needed at WP:NPP to keep the queue at zero, the need for more communication and less biting of new users, and closing loopholes within the article creation process. These gaps are what created the queue in the first place and we need to accept responsibility as the community as a whole to assure the pile ever stacks up higher again. It's fairly detailed and I admit it shouldn't be spelled out at length here, so could anyone suggest where I might seek further opinion on this? The pump? Separate RfC, as this could technically be considered a different problem? This aspect is at least low on drama and controversy. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 05:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this new "sticky" PROD tag going to be included in Twinkle? Any new prod tags definitely out to be included in all the pertinent automated tools because many, if not most, NPP folks make extensive use of them. This will ensure new, unreferenced BLPs will get the correct prod tag. I'm sure some will get through but nothing is perfect. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 07:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

That would be covered in the second bullet point---NPP could be one of the pages that is alerted to this change---particularly as it relates to BLP-PROD. As for preventive---I think that is what this proposal is tackling in earnest. An agreement to implement BLP-PROD and make changes to key pages to indicate that new BLP's need sources. While we may or may not live up to the goal of cleaning up the project, I hope that these changes will put a stop gap on the problem increasing.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 09:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Datheisen the community has had years to educate new editors, and make our referencing policy easier for new users, the community has failed. The pile will not get higher again if this proposal passes, instead, new editors will get bitey notifications that basically say: "source this article or else"

If biting new users is your concern, you should oppose this proposal, because this proposal will have a very negative effect on new users. Okip 17:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether it's bitey or not depends on how the tag is worded, and how the NPP people behave. If it's confusing, cold, and bureaucratic, yes, new users will be turned off, as they already are when their first article gets deleted. But if we welcome them and give them an encouraging message, and guide them through the process, it's actually a positive in terms of making new article creation less scary. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As we all now from WP:NEWT this is not currently happening, which unfortunately is a failure of the community as a whole.

Could we guide them through the process without the threat of deletion, or, in the alternative, requiring editors follow rudimentary WP:BEFORE? Okip 18:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, we can lie to them, but even without this, an article about a person with no sources is almost always under threat of deletion, WP:N generally requires sources as well. Mr.Z-man 03:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

That of course is a red herring. Handled properly, a new stub will have a source before it is an article about a person (or any subject for that matter). We've simply not had any discipline in place to date that would make that happen. If we agree there should be such a discipline, agreement on the mechanics can follow. User:LeadSongDog come howl 04:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If the article is created with a source, then it is not going to go through the process for unsourced BLPs. Mr.Z-man 05:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• I support 3-9 but oppose 1-2, because Phase I proposals to allow uncontentious unsourced material were well reasoned (and had a high !vote count, for what it's worth). Is the change motivated by a belief that there is consensus, by genuine fear of imposed changes if we don't change ourselves, or by deletionists creating and playing on such a fear? ArbCom are judges rather than lawmakers. Jimmy Wales stated his position in Phase I, with no hint of "or else". I see no citations for threats of action by the Foundation. Maybe the bogeyman doesn't exist. Certes (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Part 2: Where consensus isn't quite as clear

It is clear that something has to be done with old unsourced BLP's. While it is debatable as to the amount of harm/damage that can be and is done by having an BLP unsourced, the tide is clear---the foundation and Jimbo want BLP's to have sources. If we don't address the situation on our own, then the Foundation/Wales may come down and make us comply. To this end, I've pulled some of the compromise suggestions raised on the talk page to make this closing proposal:

1. We as a community are committing ourselves to cleaning up the unsourced BLP's within a year.
2. There is a lot of discussion surrounding whether or not old unsourced BLP's should be deleted. There seems to be a growing acceptance that if the community doesn't act, then this proposal may become unavoidable, but at present there is not a mandate to do so. Those who oppose it are pushing for a "clean up" option instead.
3. Based upon Scott Mac's compromise proposal on the talk page we will hold off discussion concerning codifying the deletion of Old Unsourced BLP's for 3 months. If reasonable progress is not achieved in cleaning up the the old unsourced BLP's during that 3 month time period, another RfC may be opened to revisit this item. Those people who are opposed to a systematic deletion of old BLP's are thus behooved to ensure that this action is not required.
4. For purposes of judging whether or not the community is taking this proposal seriously, J04n proposed the following metric. Currently, there are 42,621 articles in the Category:All unreferenced BLPs. The community commits to reducing this number to 30,000 by June 1, 2010 (3 month); 20,000 by September 1 (6 months); 10,000 by December 1 (9 months); and no unsourced BLP's tagged as unsourced BLPs for more than one month by March 1, 2011 (1 year.) (NOTE: these goals recognize that roughly 1000 unidentified OLD BLP articles may be identified or retagged monthly. If this number increases, then the targets may need to be adjusted keeping in mind the 1 year goal. While 1,000 may be less than the average over the past six months, we will be addressing NEW BLP's with the BLP-PROD above.) EDIT: I made two minor edits (in italics) per WSC's observation that BLP articles may be tagged as "unsourced" right now but not tagged as unsourced BLPs.
5. BLP-PROD may be used sparingly as an alternative to AFD, but only in cases where an effort has been made to source the article themself and it is fairly obvious that the article would fail at AFD in its current form. This does not mean that the community supports, at this point, wide spread use of BLP-PROD on OLD unsourced BLPs, but rather a recognition that atlernatives may be necessary to avoid flooding AfD.
6. If the community fails to make significant progress towards these goals, another RfC may be opened to consider other options keeping in mind the original goal of clearing the backlog by March 1, 2011.
7. After the clean up period is complete, newly identified "old" BLPs would be tagged with the BLP-PROD tag.

Again, you may not agree with each of the points above, but the question I have is "can you live with this compromise?"

Yes

1. Yes As nom I can accept this compromise and see if the community can live up to its obligations. While not part of the proposal, I think that we should hold "BLP clean up drives" during the last two weeks of each phase.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Yes Aymatth2 (talk) 13:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Agree My concern is if future RfC's arise will the overall progress get "bogged" down again ? Mlpearc (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Agree per below. NW (Talk) 23:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
5. I really don't like it. But it is a fair assessment of where we are at, and I don't think more is possible now. I, for one, am willing to refrain from speedy deletions on unsourced and see if the clear-up can work. But there are limits to a "wait and see" policy. Reluctantly, I'll go with this.--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

   I think it's important that we "freeze" the unreferenced BLP categories of Jan 2010 and earlier, so in future when people change {{unreferenced}} tags to {{unreferencedBLP}}s they change the date to the current month and year. Otherwise we will continue to get a false impression of the amount of work going on in fixing BLPs. Whilst I would support a 12 month project to resolve the 42,000 articles currently identified as unreferenced BLPs, we don't know how many more old unreferenced BLPs will be found in that 12 months and retagged into the 42,000. So this is too open ended to my mind. ϢereSpielChequers 00:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

6. Conditional support. My view is that there is no concensus to use BLP-PROD for old unreferenced BLPs. Accordingly, I'd like to see a moratorium on its use on old articles until the point that the "progress targets" described in point 4 are missed. Otherwise, I think this is something the community can live with. Jogurney (talk) 00:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
7. Support, but I must say that I am uneasy about point 5, but I will assume good faith in that the BLP-PROD will be used "only in cases where an effort has been made to source the article". BTW, kudos to Baloonman for attempting to move this along. J04n(talk page) 03:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
8. I don't especially like this, as I think the timeline is overly conservative, but I can live with it, and like Scott I am willing to hold off on mass deletions for now. Kevin (talk) 04:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
9. Looks okay in general, but I don't think we need a BLP-PROD, as opposed to just PROD for the old BLPs that look hopeless or uncontroversial (point 5). It would make the wording for a BLP-PROD policy more complicated than it needs to be. Pcap ping 06:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
10. This is workable. Mr.Z-man 06:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
11. Yes I agree with the statement regarding existing unsourced BLPs. Okip has a contest going on and perhaps people can help him expand it, ir hopefully get the foundation behind it on a much larger scale. The more BLPs are cleaned up and sourced, the better. Let's all do this wile we're fresh and excited. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 07:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
12. Yes - I can just about live with that. What i can't live with is a lot more procrastination and debate, and I'm already doing what my non-admin tools permit to do to get rid/clean up/improve them. It's a drop in the ocean because I don't know how to address 500 articles an hour like some of you, but what I'm doing is working.--Kudpung (talk) 08:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
13. Yes -- I think the numerical goals might be too ambitious, but other factors counter that. Maurreen (talk) 11:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
14. Yes I'm in agreement with Doc above, and athough this isn't what I'd like to see exactly, it's better than nothing and appears to be something we can agree on. Dougweller (talk) 14:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
15. Yes. PeterSymonds (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
16. Agree (that this is a good summary of points not yet decided). The specific deadlines vary, but most support or accept that there will be a deadline, and the longest ones proposed are a year. The final will be somewhere between 3 months and 1 year, likely 6 months to 1 year. Point 2 is an illusory question. If an article cannot be sourced it's unverifiable, so it is deletable under current policy. If it is sourceable but nobody has bothered to source it, that's not what we want - but the premise of the emerging consensus is that after some process, at some point if the BLP remains unsourced it gets deleted. I don't see why we need to hold off 3 months or start from scratch with a new BLP, we can just have a slow-acting proposal... but holding off before implementing does address Okip's objections currently at the bottom of the page that this could be fixed without any action. I'm confused about BLP-PROD - AfD is a slow, labor-intensive process. I think we should leave the exact deletion mechanism for both the backlog and new unsourced BLPs open for a later stage of the RfC. Let's agree to do it first, then we can deal with implementation. We wouldn't prod tens of thousands of articles at once with identical deadlines, but either PROD-BLP on a rolling schedule, or all at once with different due dates. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
17. Yes — Coffee // have a cup // ark // 21:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
18. Yes As long as its reasonable. Brambleclawx 00:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
19. Yes Meta-consensus. Yay. Gigs (talk) 04:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
20. Yes   pablo_hablo. 08:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
21. Okay Jehochman ^Brrr 19:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
22. Yes - we need to move in this direction, and yes, we need explicit metrics for our move in this direction. If DashBot gets us moving faster, that's great too. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
23. Just about yes Not really what I wanted but as close as we're likely to get unless Okip's proposal gains a lot of support quickly. Alzarian16 (talk) 10:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
24. Yes. JamieS93^❤ 14:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
25. Yes. Seems like a reasonable compromise position. —ShinyG (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
26. Yes. Strongly agree with 1,2 and 4 point... and the compromise is compromise!Aeymon (talk) 21:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
27. Yes. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
28. Yes. Not quite unfuckwithable, but definitely livewithable. Yilloslime ^T_C 00:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
29. Yes I can live with this. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 00:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
30. Not great, but I guess it'll have to do. Santa Claus of the Future (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
31. Suppose so. Seems to be somewhere in the middle. Quantpole (talk) 09:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
32. Yes, appears to be a compromise --Magicus69 10:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
33. Yes --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 13:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
34. Agree - Timeline is a bit conservative, but do-able which is the biggest obstacle. rkairis (rkairis) 19:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
35. Yes --Seems as sensible as it could beMajor Bloodnok (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
36. Essentially yes with a big caveat regarding number 4. The clean up effort may happen unevenly across Wikipedia. While the community as a whole might slack and not live up to the promise to reduce the number of unreffed BLPs down to 30,000 (a 30% reduction in three months), a particular Wiki Project or editors may successfully source enough of these articles in its/their area of interest to go down from, say 129, to about 64 (a 50% reduction in a month). The fact that the community as a whole can't keep its promises shouldn't result in the WikiProject or topic area being "punished" by random PRODs. A bit of discretion and common sense is needed.radek (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
37. Yes. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 03:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
38. Yes - I think using the principles here - allows us concrete plans to make a compromise between those who want to try clearing the backlog independent of new rules first and those who want to make a new article test to slow down backlog growth. --Lyc. cooperi (talk) 03:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
39. Setting goals, and revisiting them down the line is one of the basics of project planning, something Wikipedia desperately needs. Nifboy (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
40. Yes. We must move forward on this. Emmanuel Lasker: "a bad plan is better than no plan at all." Binksternet (talk) 03:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
41. Mhm. Works for me. Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 04:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
42. Tentative yes. This increases the motivation to identify old, untagged, unsourced BLPs, of which I'm sure there are thousands. That's a very positive thing, but will make it difficult to track actual progress. If the problem is 50% bigger than the backlog suggests, it stands to reason that working at the same rate it will take 50% longer to eradicate the problem. I'm supporting on the understanding that #4 deals with this concern. I think it's trying to, but it's vague. WFCforLife (talk) 05:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
43. agree - this is reasonable Voceditenore (talk) 05:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
44. Yes-ish. I tend toward thinking that this entire second section is just entertaining noise at this point, since depending upon how things go forward, what the secondary effects will be and what to do next are not really possible to predict. I'm not going to try to decide if my cat will be done with breakfast by 9 a.m. when I'm not sure when I'm getting up, myself, to feed him. I'll lean toward "yes" over "no" here, in the absence of a "neutral" section that I'm not inclined to create for myself. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 06:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No

1. Strong no As unnecessary new bureaucracy. The community has already removed 10,000 unreferenced BLPs from the list, we are actively working to give editors more tools, such as User:DASHBot to clean up the mess even further. Okip 17:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
   • Then you should be supporting this! This proposal basically says that if the community can get its act together and clean up its mess, then we won't be adding any policies/guidelines related to old unsourced BLPs. This proposal is basically, a status quo one, but that acknowledges that we as a project have made a commitment to clean things up and if they don't get cleaned up, then we might have to revisit the notion of deleting old unsourced BLPs.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 04:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
     • No, I should not be supporting this, "we will hold off discussion concerning codifying the deletion of Old Unsourced BLP's for 3 months." this simply gives the community a short window of time, before we inevitably start deleting editors good faith contributions. The underlying foundation of this idea is that unsourced BLPs are a problem, when the reality is, that only a very small portion are. Maybe I would accept your proposals if your proposal did not ignore other proposals. Okip 12:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
       • Actually, with the exception of BLP-PROD in the first section, which had the most support and has now been designed for NEW Unscourced BLP's, this proposal does take those into account. If we, as a community, can get our act together and clean things up, then nothing happens to OLD Unsourced BLPs. We don't write new policy, we don't start mass deletions, the only significant difference this proposal makes is that if we (the fixers) don't get our shit in gear, then they (the deleters) will have a stronger case down the road. The compromise is one that basically says, have the fixers prove us wrong. If you and others can clean up the articles, then we won't have to make any changes in this arena.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 20:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Disagree the consensus is definitely not the least clear about any particular time period. Including it here is just plain wrong and overspecific for this stage in the discussion. The consensus is also not clear about how to tag BLPs, and this overstates the degree of agreement very substantially. The consensus is also not clear about the relative use of AfD and Prod. And I think there is quite the opposite of a growing consensus that the mass deletion of old BLPs will ever be necessary--what I see is a growing consensus that such action should never be used for any sort of articles. I considered supporting, giving the exceptions, but these are too many and too basic. DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Disagree of course. Come on now, this is coming down to a war of attrition: who is paying enough attention to wait through all the Cr*p here. Plus I disagree with the overall reading (Part I and II) of this RfC. Hobit (talk) 17:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
   • This has to be resolved at some point. Are you suggesting that once a discussion passes some length+time threshold that it becomes null and void somehow? Mr.Z-man 18:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
4. I object per above. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
5. Disagree Mathmo ^Talk 11:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
6. Disagree Moved from support. I think this is an unhelpful distraction from higher risk areas of the pedia such as unidentified unreferenced BLPs, Attack pages in userspace and falsely sourced BLPs; But I was prepared to go along with this as the current fad providing it was a discrete measurable and achievable task. However as we can't get agreement to limit this to the 42,000 currently tagged as unreferenced BLPs, we don't yet know the true size of the project - thousands of articles tagged as unreferenced form 2009 and before will turn out to be BLPs and if they are going to be retagged without the date being updated then they will be added to the 42,000...... ϢereSpielChequers 16:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
   • That is why I explicitly stated the expectation that there be about 1,000 newly identified OLD BLP's per month. That is a little below the average number identified over the past 6 months, but if we are dealing with new unsourced BLPs via BLP-PROD, then that number is (hopefully) higher than reality. I included that comment explicitly to avoid the issue of somebody wanting to push a deletionist view point through by tagging 5K articles a month. If we see that kind of shennanigans, then it will enable those of us who want to avoid wholesale deletions to cry foul.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 16:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
     • Thanks I did notice that sentence. But I don't see how an estimate puts any limit on the number of articles retagged as old unreferenced BLPs per month. There are over a quarter of a million unreferenced articles out there, if more people were looking though that particular backlog or someone went through removing unreferenced twentieth century dates of death, and then changing them to unreferenced BLPs we could easily see the backlog grow. I could accept a compromise whereby if in March 2010 someone finds an article tagged as unreferenced since march 08 and they spot that the person could still be living they change it to unreferenced BLP March 2010 - but without that I will oppose on the basis that it is too likely to end in tears or last minute rushed rescues. ϢereSpielChequers 16:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
     • Interesting scenario. IMO, if an article was tagged with just a standard unsourced tag, not an unsourced BLP tag, *I* would think that when they changed it to unsourced BLP tag that they would have to change it to the current date. But I think you are 100% right in that the people who are supporting this from the "do not delete" camp want are doing so based upon the assumption that we are talking about the 42K currently identified items.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 16:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
       • • I made two minor changes, which I believe are completely in spirit of the original proposal that should address your concern. The original proposal contained language intentionally intended to convey that the project is committed to cleaning up those 42K articles, while recognizing that roughly 1K more may be added to the count on a monthly basis---whatever the source. So I tweaked the wording to cover those items that might be identified as mistagged.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 17:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
           • About User:WereSpielChequers' concern -- I wonder whether it's feasible to address this from the opposite perspective. That is, by "taking care of* x number of articles per period, in contrast to setting the level at the number of outstanding articles. But the number of articles taken care of might be too hard to determine. Maurreen (talk) 17:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
             • Thanks Balloonman for those changes and Maureen for the suggestion of measuring articles fixed rather than number of articles still in that category. I'm not convinced that either could work, except perhaps by the messy approach of adding another list or category for the current 42,000 and measuring how that changes. I have requested that the Bot which is doing this be amended to fix the date as well, but if you read User talk:Mr.Z-man#A tweak to your Bot plz, there is also a case to leave the date unaltered when fixing the tag. If it wasn't for the concentration on dealing with this particular maintenance category I would agree with leaving such dates unaltered, but I don't think the current proposal would work as is - at some point it will all end in tears with one side saying they've fixed far more than the promised 42,000 and the other side saying there are still x thousand in that category. ϢereSpielChequers 18:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
7. Oppose per DGG, and WereSpellChecquers and mete-rfc issue below.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
8. Disagree with timing; the "fair use" problem, which was likely to lead to lawsuits, the Project was given one year from the Foundation decision to develop a policy, and a further year to clean things up. Here, we don't even have a consensus or mandate that this is the problem to be resolved. If timing is established by a clear consensus, some of the other provisions seem acceptable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

   The WMF board passed a resolution regarding BLP and there is a task force investigating "top down" solutions to BLP issues. Also, FWIW, OTRS currently gets about 6–7 BLP complaints for every one copyvio complaint. Mr.Z-man 03:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

9. Disagree with the whole notion that such things can be legislated. I find myself broadly in agreement with DGG in this section of the proposal. Orderinchaos 00:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
10. Oppose as per DGG and Arthur Rubin. DES ^(talk) 02:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
11. Oppose If an article would clearly fail at AfD, put it up for AfD; if the AfD would be a snowball, say why - and put it up for CSD. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Please, not another RfC. If reasonable progress (that in itself is in the eye of the beholder; it ought to be defined) isn't made in three months, just prod an equivalent number of articles to get to our pre-defined quota for that month. The rest seems acceptable as a reasonable compromise for all parties. NW (Talk) 23:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Put that in there as it was part of Scott's original compromise solution. I did, however, add a proposal to allow use of BLP-PROD with the caveat that the person applying it has to check for sources first. Eg if a person working the queue stumbles upon an article they can't source, go ahead and prod... but this shouldn't be deemed a license for mass prods of unsourced blps.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 23:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

As for reasonable progress, that's what bullet point 4 is about---defining what reasonable process is. I didn't want to leave it vague and in the eye of the beholder ;-)---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 23:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well I agree with you in spirit, but I don't think we need another RfC. I don't understand why Alverstand's proposal didn't get more support since so many people seem to want to wait until the current progress levels off before doing forced deletions. I agree, lets wait. But we can decide now what to do when it stops dropping. Gigs (talk) 23:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

head→desk. The rest of it looks good to me. And Gigs, I think the answer to that this is the most reasonable compromise. If it were up to me, we wouldn't be waiting at all. But I recognize the rest of the community has different views that I do, and so I, like most others, are willing to compromise and accept what we wouldn't have accepted otherwise in the name of progress. NW (Talk) 23:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

How can this possibly be "the most reasonable compromise" when some of the most supported and popular proposals where never advocated? Okip 18:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You mean like the 163 users who supported Jehochman's original proposal for a BLP-PROD, which is significantly more support than the 16 users who supported Bearcat's contrary position that you cite as being one of the most supported/popular positions? Or the one that you are citing as having 19-7 support, but can only reach the 7 if you discount the nine people who failed to write the word "oppose" in their oppose rationale?---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 09:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

This proposal is very confusing to me. Are people agreeing that consensus isn't clear on these points, or are they agreeing to the points themselves? Gigs (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think people are agreeing that consensus isn't clear on these points but we should follow them anyway, as a compromise we can agree with. NW (Talk) 03:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Heh, a sort of self-referential paradox. :) Well I'm on board with it anyway. Gigs (talk) 04:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment As for the foundation forcing us, has anyone looked at other Wikipedias? A spot check of BLPs at the German one showed 5 out of 10 unsourced entirely, and 3 of the others sourced only to web sites that we would not consider adequate. At the French Wikipedia out of 10, 2 were unsourced completely, and 7 of them only to borderline websites. It seems to be the routine practice at deWP in particular that if the sourcing would be obvious, not to bother specifying it. Not a single one of the 20 in both Wikipedias had inline citations at all. Additionally, they accept a link to the equivalent of WorldCat listings of books by and about the person --the catalog of the German Nationalbibliothek as a sufficient source. [sample DNB entry]. DGG ( talk ) 17:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
  • (Un)fortunately English wiki is the Flagship so for the better or worse a lot of editing quality "Steps Forward" are implemented here. --KrebMarkt 18:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Actually, the one important step to drastically improve BLP (and other) content, sighted revisions, was implemented by the deWP; we have been promised it for half a year now. I do not see why you assume that English-speakers are more rational than everyone else. DGG ( talk ) 19:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
      • What's bitterly funny is we will likely double up effort dealing with unsourced BLPs and implementation of sighted revisions on BLPs at the same time. --KrebMarkt 23:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - short dated deadlines are the best idea, and deletion of other BLPs that are not referenced after the closing date. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Each point has plenty of discussion to sort it out. At this point in time consensus not not been achieved on these items, and even the introduction is not proven. Some of the ideas are good, but that does not mean that they are in a final form. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• People who tag articles for deletion should help with sourcing. This issue is not addressed. Sole Soul (talk) 10:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose very notion of this meta-RFC

Best to leave it to one of those legendary uninvolved admins to gauge the consensus. Getting consensus on what there is consensus on (particularly with participation levels not much better than the actual RFC)...just seems plain backward. It seems to further the incorrect notion that these things are entirely vote-based. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC) (I withdraw support for my own statement on the strength of the rebuttals)

Support

• Strong support, as the history of this RFC shows, and which is shown again yesterday, when Balloonman declared that "consensus was almost reached" touting his proposal, and ignoring other editors proposals, be VERY wary of editors who claim consensus. Okip 16:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong support. My feeling is that people are responding to personal experiences with constructive ideas of their own manufacture. Having been a webmaster for large online knowledgebases? These subjective perceptions of problems and remedies that are not founded in statistics just promote confusion. People are trying to "get a feel" for the problem, when analysis, formal analysis is appropriate. We need statistical leverage here. My guess is that 80% of the unsourced bio articles are actually encyclopedic — they simply lack proper sourcing. Equally, nearly all of the Wikipedia articles that have the top daily readership have been compromised by marketing sources, so that they are flimsy reports of unencyclopedic romantic relationships, deep trivia about one-off performances and bewildering unexplained recitation of remixes. Having an article source or not is far from an acid test resolving unencyclopedic material. Regards, Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• we seem to have lost the discussion on the other proposals from phase I The top 3 should have been discussed here as some ideas were pretty different to the summary of phase I. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Mathmo ^Talk 11:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support This whole thing is a mess with the introduction into the summary of previously not properly discussed points such as how we had better blow the house down ourselves before the big bad wolf does.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The issue selection from RFC I to this phase was faulty, even if the summary were accurate; even if consensus were obtained on the issues here, implementation should be deferred until the real issues from RFC I are discussed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support, a clear case of "he who drafts the document rules the day", not a good way to handle this serious matter, IMO. DES ^(talk) 03:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

• I think in this case "Legendary" means "impossible to find". Not that I don't appreciate an exceptionally well thought out closure, but I don't mind closing this in the same way an ArbComm case is closed; by picking a plan that's good enough and rallying support behind it instead of getting eternally bogged down in the details. Nifboy (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

I thoroughly agree with meta. I was gong to post more suggestions on the discussion but as it's completely lost it's track and has ended up chasing its many tails (endeminc most Wikipedia RfCs), yes: Best to leave it to one of those legendary uninvolved admins to gauge the consensus, especially as at a rough estimate, 90% of the comments have been made by about 5% of the contributors, and far to many of those were not about the topic title at all.--Kudpung (talk) 02:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You only really need an "uninvolved admin" if there is no clear consensus that has formed... which is not the case here. In an ideal world, consensus will be clear and we can all agree as to what the body has determined... if we can't agree, then consensus has not truly been met and we can try to resolve the outstanding issues. Plus, this way we avoid rulings from on high by people may have a stake in the game, but have been quiet. Finally, by getting everybody to agree to what has been agreed to, you avoid people crying foul or playing games down the road.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 03:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Balloonman, the consensus that you espouse is as one sided as the administrator's false "consensus" who closed this RFC and espoused only one side. Okip 16:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Balloonman, if there's consensus that there's a consensus, then surely that means there's a consensus (2 actually). Given the huge amount of discussion, the number of articles involved, etc., its rather hard for someone to be both qualified to judge such a consensus and completely impartial. Mr.Z-man 06:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you've summed that up perfectly Mr.Z-man. And that's the whole problem (as I hinted above) with all Wikipedia debates: everything needs a consensus for a consensus for a consensus ad nauseam... --Kudpung (talk) 08:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Currently the above discussions are near-unanimous. If it stays the same, it wouldn't take a consensus to figure out the consensus there. Mr.Z-man 16:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about Bearcat's proposal? Which was not addressed by Balloonman? And which has 16-1 in support? Okip 16:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not referring to that. Mr.Z-man 16:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that so far, this meta-RfC is doing a great job to both identify and further consensus. Why on earth would you want to shut the meta-RfC down, in light of that?--Father Goose (talk) 08:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm naïve, but I still have a problem with this idea of a consensus. I've been editing Wikipedia for many years, and the closest I've seen "coming to a consensus" simply meant that seven editors said yes, two editors said no, and the two naysay editors were expected to "come around". It's still Majority rule and screw the minority, so let's not kid ourselves, okay?

 —  Paine (Ellsworth's Climax)  11:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

To paraphrase Forest Gump, consensus is as consensus does. If someone wants to summarize people's views, and people seem to sign on, that's helpful. I've looked at the attempted summary. It looks pretty good to me. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Alternate proposal to close this RFC: we don't need a whole new layer of bureaucracy

Thanks to User:DASHBot, in one short month, 10,000 unreferenced articles have been referenced or removed, and the community is actively removing more.

I propose that we support Bearcat's proposal, which actually had the most support here when Balloonman wrote his proposal. We don't "actually need to create a whole new layer of bureaucracy and regulation here."

Support

• As proposer. Okip 18:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• This is fine. If the reduction of the unreferenced BLPs backlog continues apace, then when we review matters in three months, there will be (as you say) no need to do any more. We don't need to choose between the "do nothing" and the "do something", I think we've a consensus that we do nothing in terms of deletion with the backlog for three months, and then see. If you are correct that DASHbot and other initiatives will show a continuing significant reduction in the backlog then I'll be happy to agree with you in opposing anything further - it will simply be unnecessary. I don't, however, see how this is an "alternative" to the above.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you for your support. It is an alternative view that the existing framework can address unreferenced BLPs. I would be happy to support Balloonman proposal, if that proposal includes rudimentary WP:BEFORE requirements to help insure new users are not bitten. Okip 18:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Well, if the existing framework seems on track to eliminate the backlog within a reasonable period (I suggest 1 year) then that's fine. I'm probably more pessimistic than you are, but time will tell. There's really not a lot of point in arguing about it. If we look back in three months and see a really significant fall, then it will be obvious that enough is being done and the "stick" of threatened backlog deletions will have proven unnecessary. If not, we can discuss what alternatives are needed at that point. I'm happy to "wait and see" for three months wrt the backlog. As for biting new users, no one wants to do that. If new unreferenced BLPs are prodded, then the notice should be very nice. "Thanks for this, but we are looking for references for biographies - can you offer some? If you need help ask here". We should also encourage other users to help out with references as they are able and willing (remembering this is a volunteer project). If the article is unsourced at the end of the prod time, it gets deleted, but perhaps another nice message to the creator saying "sorry about that, if you'd like it restored all you need to do is have a reference available and ask [here], if you'd like help just ask". There's really no excuse for this to be "bitey".--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, clearly many editors are repelled by this muddling of one point after the next and are happy to help when given a reasonable chance to understand the issue without the drama and disruption. If there is strong support to make any changes then a specific effort to create a sticky prod - whatever that is - will likely still have strong support in a few months or whenever. I'm also unconvinced that rational ways of inviting people to solve the perceived backlog have been exhausted. Perhaps as part of this closing a concerted effort to point to the new efforts to address these concerns could be prominently placed and advertised so that those who aren't interested in the discussion(s) for whatever reasons may still be enticed to help the BLPs that need attention. -- Banjeboi 19:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support We already have a clear policy which forbids the making of rules for their own sake. We already have numerous ways of dealing with unsatisfactory articles including speedy deletion, proposed deletion, AFD , RFC and ordinary editing. We don't need another one. See also Hard cases make bad law and Perfect is the enemy of good. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per Colonel Warden--Peter cohen (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support because the problem is solving itself nicely. I think the point of the proposal has become moot. But if people wantt o support it that's a reasonable option also. DGG ( talk ) 16:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per DGG. Hobit (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support because the problem is already resolving itself steadily with the existing editor-friendly approach. Certes (talk) 20:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support in that we should be focusing more time and effort to article improvement rather than even more bureacracy. We should be a collection of articles for which discuss improvements on their talk pages. We have various wikiprojects that concern various kinds of people already in place as well. The way to deal with unsourced BLPs is to just source them or if they are hoaxes that cannot be sourced, then those should be deleted with no controversy. Specific libelous edits can be oversighted from the edit history, while keeping the good edits. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support With a review of progress in 3 month's time. --Plad2 (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per DGG. Assuming progress is made there is no real need to change things. Alzarian16 (talk) 09:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per all of above. Any new processes will take time to implement, understand and apply, whereas improving understanding and implementation of current guidelines will resolve this issue a lot faster, with less angst.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per my Phase I statement and DGG and Col.W. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• conditional support as long as an effort is made to get out the word about the BLP sourcing problem as outlined in the general-consensus points above, so that this momentum can continue. -Lyc. cooperi (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Support - How did this get lost in the shuffle? Above see all these proposals for deceptive ways to create new paths to ultimately delete articles. It is hard enough now for a conscientious person to try to protect our library of information here. If you want a path to destruction, use one that is already well worn and practiced. No new bureaucracy.Trackinfo (talk) 05:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Keep improving articles, rather than deleting them. Ntsimp (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support If those involved with the push to get things happening had engaged with the relevant communities to begin with, we wouldn't have had a crisis to begin with. My own project, WikiProject Australia, has taken care of more than 2/3 of all formerly unsourced BLPs within its remit thanks to good faith efforts by those with access to toolserver and the like - if this was done more widely, then all that would be necessary is to enact rules about future articles and place some kind of notice on the editing screen so people can't say they weren't warned. Orderinchaos 00:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Erm, the whole purpose of this proposal is no new rules. You seem to be agreeing more with part 1 (recruit projects for cleanup, policy change for new articles). Mr.Z-man 00:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Better to enforce the rules we already have to deal with the problematic pages and simply leave the community to add sources to the rest. A new rule would do little for the problematic BLPs, since the current rules when enforced allow them to be deleted anyway, and would mostly result in the prodding and deletion of harmless pages (either that or it would go entirely unenforced, in which case there's really no point in having it). The community has shown that it is capable of fixing this problem on its own, and if we can clear the three-year-old backlog of current unsourced BLPs (which certainly looks possible), new ones shouldn't be a problem so long as we continue to pay attention to them. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 02:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support--When we do the 3-month review, we need to have the unreferenced article statistical analysis redone, otherwise I don't see the point.Jarhed (talk) 03:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support although it looks too late to actually look at what ideas have had the most support at this point. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support TotientDragooned (talk) 03:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Agree, no new rules, no new policy. Existing rules and policy are sufficient and preferable as they place the burden on the community rather than on an individual author. Bryan Hopping ^T 03:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. This actually comes close to addressing the real problem, which is erroneous BLPs. There was no consensus - and there is not now - that a new BLP is needed; the support for this proposal shows that. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. No new bureaucracy. --Kleinzach 05:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support - it's not the general unsourced, uncontentious BLPs that is the problem, focus on the contentious BLPs under the current rules.  MPJ -DK  06:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

• No, we need to include something to deal with new unsourced BLPs. Letting projects deal with the backlog is fine, but at some point, projects are going to get tired of constantly having to maintain their BLPs. Additionally, if we can't keep up this pace of sourcing for a year, there needs to be some sort of procedure other than "start everything over again." I would point out that several people (including myself) who supported Bearcat's proposal did not do so in exclusion of everything else. Mr.Z-man 19:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, Bearcat's proposal while it may have the most support in round 2, doesn't hold a flame to the amount of support for Jehochman's proposal in round 1. While I do not like and opposed the BLP PROD proposal, we cannot take round 2 in isolation of round 1. Round 1 gave a clear mandate, by a much larger segment of the community that something along the lines of BLP Prod is desired.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 07:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• The current sourcing efforts are eventually going to peter out; that is just human nature. Bearcat's proposal is fine; it just doesn't go far enough. The Foundation and Jimbo have told us that the current situation is unacceptable. Leaving things at the status quo fails to deal with newly unsourced BLPs, fails to have a backup plan for dealing with old unsourced BLPs, fails to take into account the wider community consensus (those who only could follow this up through Round 1) and leaves things wide open for a fiat decision by Jimmy, the Foundation, or the Arbitration Committee. NW (Talk) 16:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Or we can just have an annual BLP Rfc Mlpearc (talk) 17:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The participation overall in this RfC series demonstrates clearly that something other than the pre-existing processes was neccesary. nb the sentence "Thanks to User:DASHBot, in one short month, 10,000 unreferenced articles have been referenced or removed, and the community is actively removing more." is flawed; yes people are actively working on this, but it is a huge leap of bad logic to say it's entirely "thanks to DASHBot."   pablo_hablo.20:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose this would seem to ignore the consensus from Phase I, that a blp-prod is needed. It seems somewhat illogical for us to try and negate that now. Also, I'm not sure I agree that creating a new tag somehow adds bureaucracy. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 21:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose While it is admirable that 10k BLPs have been cleaned up and sourced, this does not ensure we will deal with the issue going forward, which grows daily. As with all special projects, this one will fizzle out, or people will get bored and move on to other things, or DASHbot will break down, or someone will submit the whole thing to MfD and it will be closed down and archived (this has happened to a number of great and well-meaning projects). The end result of this RfC should be a permanent, ongoing solution to the problem of unsourced BLPs, not a temporary project to deal with the existing ones and then a "promise" to work on them going forward. We need policy and process, not promises and the status quo. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 05:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Opposed. I think that the position we are in now is ample evidence that something more is needed to ensure that the reduction in unsourced BLPs continues. Kevin (talk) 05:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose both because we need something to deal with new unsourced BLPs, and (if the current BLP cleanup effort doesn't continue) to deal with the backlog. The old situation didn't work (and the idea that the majority of the current cleanup is due to the Dashbot notifications, necessary as they were, is laughable), and only the threat of actual deletions got most people going on this. Going back to the old situation is not acceptable. Fram (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not strong enough. In support of previous proposals. PeterSymonds (talk) 19:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
• I'll go even further and recommend that those editors who are opposing taking effective action about unsourced BLPs be banned. Cla68 (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anyone here to whom this would apply. The most inclusionist person I recognize who has commented, elaborates in his statement on the need to use speedy deletion. DGG ( talk ) 01:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

How about just ignored? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. We need to try something new, the existing tools aren't working well enough. Yilloslime ^T_C 00:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's clear WP's existing policies have failed BLPs. Something new is needed. Firsfron of Ronchester 10:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bearcat's proposal has a lot of merit but I think it's clear that there is consensus that there will be a process for running through the entire backlog of unsourced BLPs, and another for dealing with new ones that get added. We should be narrowing our focus now to decide what that process will be, not hitting the reset button on the whole thing to say we should do nothing. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - nope, sorry. Bearcat's proposal, while laudable, doesn't go nearly far enough. We clearly need a new approach to BLP policy - Alison ^❤ 03:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - We are evolving as a community, crafting new tools and procedures as they are needed. This is one of those necessary things. Nifboy (talk) 03:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - Change is necessary, doing nothing is not an option here. SirFozzie (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is a contentious issue, and we need clarity and guidelines for the community. LK (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Neutral

I agree with the proposal in and of itself and some of the rationale.

But timing has made things tricky. That is (and not just with this), it's hard, if not impossible, to gauge the difference between how much support any given proposal has among people participating at any given time, and whether any proposal is most representative of the community.

Further, as a compromise, I suggest giving something to the other side. One possibility is to agree to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people#Part 2: Where consensus isn't quite as clear but not Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people# Part 1: Items where consensus seems to be clear. In three months, we could re-evaluate the situation. Maurreen (talk) 18:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Newly created unsourced BLP issue isn't resolved by this proposal. Having editors fixing articles on one side while others editors create unsourced articles on the other side is suicide game. --KrebMarkt 19:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have no preference, as long as something is done. Brambleclawx 17:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think the distinction between the closing proposals concerns new BLPs. User:Balloonman's proposal would change relevant policy pages to make stronger statements about sourcing, at least on BLPs. His proposal also provides for sticky WP:PRODs. User:Okip's proposal does not include these two provisions. Maurreen (talk) 18:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Isn't this a little out-of-process? A proposal to support another proposal? Why don't we just discuss this over at the section for Bearcat's proposal? I think there's a lot of good stuff Bearcat says, but it was an early proposal and people have added a number of good ideas since. I think we do need some additional resolve and procedural guidance instead of just saying we're going to continue as-is under existing policy, only enforce it this time. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikidemon, it looks like your question is addressed to me, but I don't understand why. My comments immediately above are only explanatory; they don't take a position. Maurreen (talk) 06:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I was addressing Okip's proposal, which seems to be a proposal to accept Bearcat's proposal. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Maurreen (talk) 11:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to see a method of sending out notices to all wikiprojects talk pages. Too many editors do not pay attention to the noticeboards or policy discussions such as these. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 04:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Technical disruption

The previous comments of this RFC should be restored.

User:Maurreen removed most of the comments on this page[3] (I am not sure where), breaking links to this discussion. I have never seen this done before in an RFC.

I restored these comments.[4]

Fram reverted this restoration twice, stating:

• "Okip, you are posting the same sections TWICE, please don't disrupt this RfC any further"[5]

I fixed the majority of the double post, then Hippocrite threatened me:

• "If you restore the unusable 700k page again, I will reopen the discussion to have you removed from this process - not because of what you are saying, which I haven't read and am not going to, but to prevent technical disruption of this page."[6]

Update, going through User:Maurreen edits, I found the archive: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Archive Okip 13:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. Okip 13:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Has there ever, ever been a RFC in which editors delete/remove the comments that editors are supposed to be !voting on? The extreme precedents in this RFC continue. Never mind that Balloonman in his closing proposal ignored the most popular result of Phase II, Bearcat's proposal.
2. Kleinzach 05:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC) In my opinion, archiving should not have been done on the basis of a one-word edit summary. This happened in a centralized discussion I was involved in and it was a problem. Sensible archiving should be mutually agreed.

Oppose

The comments should be available through a link, as was done. Perhaps it could have been more prominent, but that's a minor matter. You could of course have asked Maurreen what she did with the removed comments, if that was unclear to you. To turn a 150K discussion page into a 750K discussion by reinserting archived discussions, some of them twice (and failing to check your edits on your own, or to clean this up completely even when asked) is disruptive, and you could have expected to have your actions reversed promptly by different editors. I like the irony though of an editor doing everything to reinstall sections he feels are necessary, even though they are archived and accessible, but who just as easily changes his three days old posts in discussions, even when people have already responded to them. Never mind that the same editor also today did a strike through of a section header (thereby invalidating all potential section links to it) and a strikethrough of an already refactored older comment.[7] Trying to follow what you posted and when you posted it gets very hard sometimes, even though it is one of the bases of our discussion model. Fram (talk) 14:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

• Going through my edits was not needed. You could have just checked the talk page. Maurreen (talk) 14:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Or you could have read the top of this page, where I wrote, "For related material, please see the /Archive. ..." Maurreen (talk) 14:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC) For that matter, when you discovered that I removed the material, you should have also seen my edit summary, where I wrote, "Archiving." Maurreen (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Every editor who participated in this RFC before should be contacted about this closing RFC

We have over 400 editors who participated in this RFC, and there would probably had been many more, if the RFC was not prematurely closed and protected.

Thus far only around 40 of those editors, 10%, have discussed the final phase.

If we are too truly get a sense of consensus, I suggest contacting editors with a neutral message such as this:

==Final discussion for [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people]] ==

Hello, I note that you have commented on the first phase of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people]]

As this RFC closes, there are two proposals being considered:
# [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Biographies_of_living_people#Proposal_to_Close_This_RfC|Proposal to Close This RfC]]
#[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Biographies_of_living_people#Alternate_proposal_to_close_this_RFC:_we_don.27t_need_a_whole_new_layer_of_bureaucracy|Alternate proposal to close this RFC: we don't need a whole new layer of bureaucracy]]

Your opinion on this is welcome. ~~~~

As of yesterday, here is a list of all editors who have not participated in the final RFC, but participated in phase I of the RFC:
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Editors who have not responded to this RFC: User talk:The Evil IP address User talk:Markhurd User talk:Jpbowen User talk:Eastlaw User talk:Aarghdvaark User talk:SBmeier User talk:Alecmconroy User talk:Emperor User talk:Tango User talk:Atmoz User talk:SpikeToronto User talk:Lankiveil User talk:GameOn User talk:Fabrictramp User talk:CJLL Wright User talk:R. Baley User talk:Nthep User talk:Gatoclass User talk:Kotniski User talk:Gonzonoir User talk:Mitch Ames User talk:Dalliance User talk:Gwen Gale User talk:Nihonjoe User talk:Stormbay User talk:Pseudomonas User talk:70.106.89.93 User talk:Fizbin User talk:Charles Edward User talk:MBisanz User talk:Diannaa User talk:MER-C User talk:Physchim62 User talk:Timbouctou User talk:Tigerhawkvok User talk:Harej User talk:Hesperian User talk:Eagles247 User talk:La Pianista User talk:Chubbles User talk:GerardM User talk:Samwb123 User talk:Cerealsman User talk:Student7 User talk:Srleffler User talk:Number 57 User talk:Philosopher User talk:December21st2012Freak User talk:Bradjamesbrown User talk:All Hallow's Wraith User talk:Alexsautographs User talk:Tillman User talk:John Cardinal User talk:Xymmax User talk:Pontificalibus User talk:PositivelyJordan User talk:Xavexgoem User talk:Dank User talk:Strdst grl User talk:Antandrus User talk:KoshVorlon User talk:Dream Focus User talk:Someguy1221 User talk:SusanLesch User talk:Badger Drink User talk:Hands of gorse, heart of steel User talk:TomBeasley User talk:MrMetalFLower User talk:Kaldari User talk:Matt91486 User talk:BenRussell User talk:Ningauble User talk:Gaohoyt User talk:ARK User talk:Mighty Antar User talk:Loosmark User talk:Hans Adler User talk:Smallman12q User talk:Mattinbgn User talk:RavanAsteris User talk:Poeticbent User talk:Burpelson AFB User talk:Bsimmons666 User talk:SuperMarioMan User talk:XinJeisan User talk:Dissolve User talk:Seraphim User talk:Nick-D User talk:Smerus User talk:Throwaway85 User talk:Jasonfward User talk:Roger Davies User talk:Jarhed User talk:Buggie111 User talk:Cdogsimmons User talk:Christopher Parham User talk:Dweller User talk:Doc2234 User talk:Pigman User talk:173.59.4.184 User talk:Reach Out to the Truth User talk:The Thing That Should Not Be User talk:Lawrencekhoo User talk:Samisuccar User talk:RussNelson User talk:Andyzweb User talk:Lfstevens User talk:Wehwalt User talk:Pointillist User talk:TheGrappler User talk:Muhammad Hamza User talk:Epbr123 User talk:Ponyo User talk:MPJ-DK User talk:Akrabbim User talk:71.203.125.108 User talk:Cyclonenim User talk:Flowerpotman User talk:Luna Santin User talk:Dbachmann User talk:Icewedge User talk:Magicus69 User talk:Shell Kinney User talk:Opbeith User talk:Ratel User talk:Risker User talk:Troelsfo User talk:Ironholds User talk:Ks0stm User talk:Dougatwiki User talk:Charles Matthews User talk:Bazj User talk:Weakopedia User talk:Omarcheeseboro User talk:OpenFuture User talk:George The Dragon User talk:David in DC User talk:Andrewmc123 User talk:Varlaam User talk:Knepflerle User talk:Hut 8.5 User talk:Orderinchaos User talk:HJ Mitchell User talk:Giants2008 User talk:ThaddeusB User talk:Tomas e User talk:Peter jackson User talk:Jack Merridew User talk:Anaxial User talk:Vassyana User talk:Jheald User talk:TotientDragooned User talk:Ruslik0 User talk:Aymatth2 User talk:MSGJ User talk:Ser Amantio di Nicolao User talk:Kanguole User talk:SoWhy User talk:Jayron32 User talk:WFCforLife User talk:OrangeDog User talk:MZMcBride User talk:FloNight User talk:Casliber User talk:FT2 User talk:Vyvyan Ade Basterd User talk:Clayoquot User talk:Karanacs User talk:John Z User talk:Sin Harvest User talk:Juliancolton User talk:Power.corrupts User talk:Skomorokh User talk:Gnangarra User talk:Rd232 User talk:Llywrch User talk:M.nelson User talk:Durova User talk:Jennavecia User talk:CBM User talk:Sandstein User talk:Arthur Rubin User talk:Calliopejen1 User talk:Gavin.collins User talk:Esowteric User talk:Tony Sidaway User talk:Cs32en User talk:Recognizance User talk:Captain panda User talk:Purplebackpack89 User talk:Euryalus User talk:Seb az86556 User talk:Carolmooredc User talk:Nyttend User talk:Lonelydarksky User talk:DuncanHill User talk:Ucucha User talk:Od Mishehu User talk:Tainted Conformity User talk:MakeBelieveMonster User talk:Novickas User talk:MLauba User talk:IBen User talk:Moss&Fern User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise User talk:Promethean User talk:NBeale User talk:ToxicWasteGrounds User talk:Arbitrarily0 User talk:Shirik User talk:Hal peridol User talk:Opus 113 User talk:Binksternet User talk:SpacemanSpiff User talk:Coren User talk:Mostlyharmless User talk:Edward Vielmetti User talk:NeilN User talk:Lugnuts User talk:Otherlleft User talk:Chaoticfluffy User talk:Doomsdayer520 User talk:Megaboz User talk:OlEnglish User talk:SB Johnny User talk:Modelmotion User talk:JasonAQuest User talk:X! User talk:Tony Fox User talk:Luk User talk:JeffBurdges User talk:Ssilvers User talk:AnonMoos User talk:Ivanvector User talk:Hopping User talk:Love dance of scorpions User talk:Squidfryerchef User talk:Dc987 User talk:WOSlinker User talk:Olaf Davis User talk:Ancheta Wis User talk:The Wordsmith User talk:Quantpole User talk:Ajbpearce User talk:Radiantenergy User talk:Tabercil User talk:Kmhkmh User talk:Wikidemon User talk:RayAYang User talk:Michig User talk:Edgarde User talk:Prodego User talk:Jclemens User talk:Phantomsteve User talk:JamesBWatson User talk:Davewild User talk:Jayen466 User talk:JoshuaZ User talk:Johnbod User talk:SMcCandlish User talk:Robofish User talk:Peregrine Fisher User talk:Freikorp User talk:Boing! said Zebedee User talk:Nancy User talk:Collectonian User talk:Trilobitealive User talk:Tvoz User talk:Blurpeace User talk:Trekphiler User talk:Arteyu User talk:SchuminWeb User talk:Jmh649 User talk:RP459 User talk:Geschichte User talk:David Gerard User talk:Xxanthippe User talk:Alison User talk:Maedin User talk:SmokeyJoe User talk:Cmadler User talk:Sxeptomaniac User talk:James F Kalmar User talk:King Pickle User talk:Spartaz User talk:Pete.Hurd User talk:ChildofMidnight User talk:LeadSongDog User talk:Grue User talk:Cool Hand Luke User talk:Kohoutek1138 User talk:Epeefleche User talk:Buster7 User talk:RoryReloaded User talk:Radeksz User talk:The Earwig User talk:99of9 User talk:Kalmar James User talk:RomaC User talk:Pink Bull User talk:Flatscan User talk:Kusma User talk:TheCatalyst31 User talk:Wifione User talk:TheDJ User talk:Kleinzach User talk:ArglebargleIV User talk:Swarm User talk:Ohconfucius User talk:Wildhartlivie User talk:Skäpperöd User talk:SarekOfVulcan User talk:Looie496 User talk:Ntsimp User talk:Cla68 User talk:Jorge Stolfi User talk:VernoWhitney User talk:JohnWBarber User talk:Bearcat User talk:Noian User talk:DESiegel User talk:Baccyak4H User talk:Lyc. cooperi User talk:Mercurywoodrose User talk:Jake Wartenberg User talk:Vejvančický User talk:Orlady User talk:NJA User talk:Robert K S User talk:Woogee User talk:ANarayan User talk:Refrigerator Heaven User talk:BRG User talk:Zenexp User talk:NVO User talk:Chillum User talk:JimMillerJr User talk:Fritzpoll User talk:Milowent User talk:Niteshift36 User talk:Jmabel User talk:Yilloslime User talk:Hipocrite User talk:Belovedfreak User talk:BanyanTree User talk:Yngvadottir User talk:Privatemusings User talk:The New Mikemoral User talk:JayJasper User talk:The wub User talk:JBsupreme User talk:Debresser User talk:HandThatFeeds User talk:SuperHamster User talk:MickMacNee User talk:Viridae User talk:Bearian User talk:Cyclopia User talk:TheMandarin User talk:SmashTheState User talk:David spector User talk:Steve Smith User talk:Malinaccier Public User talk:JamieS93 User talk:Peripitus User talk:Firsfron User talk:Guettarda User talk:GregorB User talk:Cube lurker User talk:Fishhead2100 User talk:CRGreathouse User talk:Nifboy User talk:Bali ultimate User talk:Dabomb87 User talk:Ridernyc User talk:M4gnum0n User talk:Tarc User talk:Newyorkbrad User talk:SirFozzie User talk:Nathan User talk:Fences and windows User talk:Paul Erik User talk:Angusmclellan User talk:B Fizz User talk:Sjakkalle User talk:BilCat User talk:The Fiddly Leprechaun User talk:Rami R User talk:Voceditenore User talk:Henrik User talk:Quiddity User talk:Dr. Blofeld User talk:SilkTork User talk:Tim Song User talk:David Eppstein User talk:Reywas92 User talk:Nefariousski User talk:Decltype User talk:GRuban User talk:Rocksanddirt User talk:Pmanderson User talk:Fastily User talk:Proofreader77 User talk:The Anome User talk:Setreset User talk:Martin451 User talk:Mkativerata User talk:FeydHuxtable User talk:Bigtimepeace User talk:Mdukas User talk:Sbharris User talk:Contains Mild Peril User talk:Jeanne boleyn User talk:Joy User talk:Beetstra User talk:Cenarium User talk:Enric Naval User talk:Nsk92 User talk:David Straub User talk:Nil Einne User talk:Scjessey User talk:Cirt

Support

1. The open sending of neutral messages to a non-partisan selection instantly scores 3/4 per WP:CANVASS. The only possible criticism is for mass posting. If there's an objective way to reduce the audience to 100 or so editors who have substantively edited or discussed an article related to the discussion (my emphasis), then that would be perfect; if not then I still think the exceptional importance of the subject justifies the mass posting under IAR. Certes (talk) 22:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Support bringing a wider group of people in, given this impacts a wider group of people. Orderinchaos 00:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Support. The wider input to the subject is warranted, plus some Editors might of "just missed out" on the other phases which doesn't mean thier opinions have changed or diminished. Mlpearc (talk) 03:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
4. It's already been done, but I endorse it in any case. I've largely avoided the second phase because I'd rather read everything towards the end, and then decide. I now know that we're near the close, and will do so in due course. WFCforLife (talk) 03:49, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

• Is this really necessary? A message inviting comment for the closure is currently on the watchlist. NW (Talk) 01:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I contacted roughly half of the editors tonight about this RFC. I can finish the rest if the community feels like I should. Okip 02:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Go for it! Sapporod1965 (talk) 02:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, okay... here we go... Okip 03:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
        • Thank you for the notice of these alternative proposals to close the RfC. I have opinions on the merits, which I have expressed. I do not opine here, because I cannot, for the life of me, makes sense of the many permutations that have been discussed in a way that suggests consensus on much of anything. I support the meat of the first of the two proposed closure prongs. But has this far-flung discussion, complete with subpages, deletions, reinsertions, redeletions, phases, proposals, alternative proposals a partridge and at least two peartrees acheived any consensuses (consensi?)? Damned if I know. David in DC (talk) 03:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Thank you for the notice. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thoroughly disappointed

When the {{unreferenced}} tag was developed, straw poll was held *among the editors who had designed it* about where it should be placed. There were about 30 votes cast (out of a universe of perhaps 10,000 regular editors). These comprised 9 votes for for "top of article page", 10 votes for "bottom of article page", and 13 votes for "talk page". Needless to say, the obvious fourth alternative "nowhere" was not even in the ballot.

So, if that tag is now showing at the top of hundred of thousands of articles, it is because nine editors wanted it there, twenty-three did *not* want it there, and 9,970 editors did not have a chance to give their opinion.

A similar story applies to the Wikipedia:Notability guidelines. I found a straw poll in the Notability talk page about a dozen or so specific questions. The questions were all in jargon (like "PROD" in this RfC) which I was unable to decipher, so presumably only the people who had been involved in the writing of the guidelines voted. There were less than 200 votes, and some of the items in the ballot passed with a tight majority — that is, less than 1% of the pool of active editors. Unfortunately I could not determine whether the final declared "consensus" honored these votes, or — as in the case of the {{unreferenced}} tag — the minority opinion prevailedanyway.

As for this RfC, I see that 400 editors took part in phase I, 40 took part in phase II. The honest thing to do would be to declare this RfC hopelessly bungled and start all all over, beginning with the basic questions — like "are unrefernced BLPs a real problem?". Instead, it seems that this RfC will follow the same path as the other straw polls: the proposers stubbornly insist with their thesis, ignoring all data and arguments to the contrary, until all oposers get tired and leave; and then they will declare the "consensus" to be whatever they like.

In the summary to Phase 1 it was stated that all participants were concenred with the welfare of WIkipedia. I beg to differ. People who really care about Wikipedia should want to know, first, whether the unsourced BLPs are a real problem, and second, whether the proposed solution will do more good than harm. I don't see this worry among the proposers of the RfC. Indeed, it seems that the surest way to end a thread in this discussion is to post concrete numbers and examples. Instead of debating that data and what it means, the proposers merely shift to other threads.

It is clear to me that the original purpose of this RfC was not to find the best way to deal with the "problem" (or to find out whether the "problem" was real), but merely to obtain some legitimacy for what was a predetermined decision, namely that unsourced BLPs are to be deleted. If there is one thing that is clear from this discussion, is that unsourced BLPs are harmless and deleting them solely for being unsourced is extremely harmful.

The only explanation that I can find for the persistent wish to delete unsourced BLPs is psychological, namely the "lust for power" of editors who are tired of being just "workers" and want to be "bosses". In academia, were I work, this sort of thing happens all the time: people get tired of being just ordinary professors or researchers, and try to move to a position where, insted of working, they direct and control the work of other people.

How can one rise to be a "boss" in Wikipedia? Certainly not by editing contents: even if you edit 10,000 articles over several years and create a handful of "featured" ones, you will be just a "worker" like any of the other 10,000 regular editors. The same applies to any work (such as sourcing) that requires reading each article and thinking about its contents: no one can do that on more that 50-100 articles per day, the same top rate as for contents editing. Moreover, in that sort of work you often have to justify your edits to other "workers", and that puts you in the same "social level" as them.

A "boss" must do something that affects hundreds of thousands of articles, and does not require interacting with "workers" at their same level. It must be something definitive that an ordinary "worker" cannot stop or undo. It must be something that clearly put the "boss" on a higher level than the "workers".

That is the only explanation I can find for why we got the editorial tags at the top of articles. Robot-assisted tagging does not require thinking, so one can easily tag 1000 articles a day. The tagger is clearly "boss" because the tags are not "work", but "comands": every editorial tag says "I want this to be done, so some worker had better do it". A tagger is clearly above ordinary editors, because (by definition) the only way these can remove a tag is by complying with the wish of the tagger. Article tags have also the "advantage" that they violate the basic rule, "all editorial comments must go in the talk page": that is an advantage because (as in real life) one's social status is measured by the rules one can violate impunely.

And that is also the only explanation I can think for this RfC and the way it was carried out. The real "problem" of the unsourced BLPs is that the "bosses, after sticking hundreds of thousands of {{unreferenced}} tags, realized that they had been largely ignored — that is, the "workers" did not rush out to comply to their commands. That was doubly frustrating: not only it negated the authority of the "bosses", but made them look silly for wasting all that tagging work for nothing.

Enter then the idea of deleting all unsourced BLPs. Like tagging, deleting is something that can be done very quickly en masse, without having to read the articles. Like tagging, deletinon cannot be undone by ordinary editors. Even if each deletion has to be voted in the AfD, the place and timing of the vote ensures that voters will be mostly "bosses", and the final decision is made by a "boss": if one or two "workers" happen to see the AfD all in time and cast their vote, they can be just ignored.

That explains why no one here seems interested in statistics that prove that unsourced BLPs are harmless, or in the damage that deleting them might do. That explains why the proposers adamantly refuse to allow an editor other than the tagger to remove a tag without complying with its command. That is why they adamantly refuse to extend the AfD voting period beyond 7 days: for, if more "workers" get a chance to vote, they may out-vote the "bosses". After all, a Master of a thousand Slaves is not a Master at all if he lets even one Slave disobey his commands, or lets Slaves vote on wether to obey them.

Five years ago, Wikipedia could be defined as "three milion encyclopedia articles which anyone can edit". I am afraid that today it has become "a decadent social networking site with 10,000 members who have three million articles to play with". One just has to look at the pages in the "User talk:", "Wikipedia talk:", and "Template talk:" to realize that most Wikipedia decisions are being made by a small minority of "bosses" who seem to derive more plasure out of social interaction (and, in particular, the sense of power that comes from "bossing" over other members) than on making real substantial contributions to Wikipedia.

At the root of the problem is that Wikipedia's decision-making mechanism is thoroughly broken. As we saw here, and in countless other cases, any clique of ten editors can write a rule or standard, vote it among themselves, and declare it "consensus". Almost every guideline in Wikipedia:* was decided in this way. No country could survive more than a few years with such a "randomcratic" government; and it seems that Wikipedia cannot either.

All the best (if still possible to hope), --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Mostly true, but as you say, that's how WP works and you can't change it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

See User:Ikip/Sausage not surprised a bit myself what Jorge writes.

It can be fixed. But the first step is that Mr. Wales must step down. I don't think that will happen anytime soon, so defer to Mr. Fisher's conclusion. :/ Okip 03:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, one issue with this sort of proposal (as also with the other one in vogue) is that a handful of editors quickly generate a lot of text. Since most of us have day jobs or school or families that need our attention, within the span of a few hours the sheer volume of words generated becomes unreadable and we cannot meaningfully participate in the process until it comes to a 'vote'. By then, of course, there is no way that we can comment on the meaningfulness of the assumed underlying problem (because that is rarely included in the community vote). I'm not sure if there is a work around for this sort of thing, perhaps early and well advertised straw polls with simple questions ("In your opinion unreferenced BLPs are a problem yes/no" sort of thing) that would help the proposal builders see whether they're touting solutions that are looking for problems. --RegentsPark (talk) 03:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Wonderful description (in its cogency) of Wikipedia from Jorge Stolfi. A tour-de-force. The virtual 'power' thing on WP is extraordinary. (You'd think we were participating in the French or Russian Revolution, not just in terms of the personal struggles involved and the inflated oratory, but also in the creation and mindless use of new jargon.) Many of our problems are due to inadequate processes. Parliaments, diets, congresses etc all have elaborate rules for preventing debates from getting out of hand. Wikipedia doesn't. This Rfc may be disappointing, but it's relative clean. There are worse. --Kleinzach 04:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

'Perhaps the creation of a democratically-elected Wikipedia "legislature" that makes rules and policies would help. Sapporod1965 (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• STRONG SUPPORT - EVERYBODY PLEASE READ JORGE STOFI's ENTRY=THOROUGHLY DISAPPOINTED= IN ITS ENTIRETY. I held my comments so this could take a prominent position at the bottom of the page for as long as possible. This is the most insightful and accurate summation for the real problem anybody has produced. Better than I could have hoped to produce. It is must reading for all. This gets my complete endorsement.Trackinfo (talk) 04:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong support. Yes, indeed. Thoroughly endorsed. --Kleinzach 05:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong support. - This is a major debate. It's not about somethng like should the <ref></ref> tage come berfore or after the full stop (period). It echoes the tones of my dozen or so short contribs to this RfC, and the Policy notes on my own user page. EVERYBODY PLEASE AT LEAST READ JORGE STOFI's ENTRY - the rest of this RfC has clouded the issues and got (gotten) out of control - some of us can even be seen to have contradicted ourselves because there weren't any other offered options of choice in the many sub consensuses of consensuses.--Kudpung (talk) 05:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• • ...you realize, of course, that you three just voted in favor of a comment against voting. ¦ Reisio (talk) 05:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: The observation that much of WP organization and pioneering and trend-setting (with both positive and negative outcomes in various cases, and at all levels) are carried out by people who act as "bosses" and do little constructive work of other sorts is true, but is simply a mirror of every other process in the world. This is a volunteer project, and there's an unbelievable amount of work to be done. And people will just damned well do it, because this is a wiki, and it even has explicit policies and near-policies supporting initiative over caution. Some people have skills better suited to organizing that work, others doing the bulk of it, and still others polishing the details. Furthermore, when it comes to leading, early leaders are often extremely opinionated and stubborn (otherwise the order they are trying to form would melt back into the chaos), later leaders (who often have to supplant the original visionaries) are stabilizing but excessively promotional/evangelical (demanding that everyone agree with the project/process in question, rather than with their personal vision, which may not even be in evidence), while mature-phase leadership is all about "don't rock the boat" and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". There are entire books about this. Yes, there will always be some jackasses that insert themselves as leaders when in fact they have no leadership skills at all and only want the power to push their own agendas. This is true on the stage of world politics, and the schoolyard, and Wikipedia administration, and even the control and direction of individual WP templates only a dozen people give a damn about. Human nature. Deal. PS: I say this as someone who has quite intensely locked horns with some of the specific "bosses" that Jorge Stofi complains of, since 2006. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 05:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)