Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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:{{yo|Buffs}} You're absolutely, 100% wrong that {{tq|It really isn't NorthBySouthBaranof's place to redact other people's comments.}} [[WP:BLP|The Biographies of Living Persons policy]] is straightforward and clear: ''All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.'' The statements in question were and are false, defamatory, and not supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source, and therefore must not be on Wikipedia in any fashion. The end. |
:{{yo|Buffs}} You're absolutely, 100% wrong that {{tq|It really isn't NorthBySouthBaranof's place to redact other people's comments.}} [[WP:BLP|The Biographies of Living Persons policy]] is straightforward and clear: ''All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.'' The statements in question were and are false, defamatory, and not supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source, and therefore must not be on Wikipedia in any fashion. The end. |
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:That it was on a talk page is immaterial: ''This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material.'' I don't have to file an ANI report or find an admin to enforce a policy, and the burden of evidence falls entirely on PackMecEng, not me. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 00:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC) |
:That it was on a talk page is immaterial: ''This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material.'' I don't have to file an ANI report or find an admin to enforce a policy, and the burden of evidence falls entirely on PackMecEng, not me. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 00:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{yo|Buffs}} Again, I'm not sure how to make it any clearer: You are 100% wrong. The [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/495401-fbi-officials-discussed-trying-to-get-flynn-to-lie-in-interview-get cited source] ''never mentions Peter Strzok''. Go ahead, do a word search, I dare you. The source '''does not say that the notes were about anything Peter Strzok said'''. The association of that line with Peter Strzok is entirely an invention of the mind of PackMecEng. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) |
:{{yo|Buffs}} Again, I'm not sure how to make it any clearer: You are 100% wrong. The [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/495401-fbi-officials-discussed-trying-to-get-flynn-to-lie-in-interview-get cited source] ''never mentions Peter Strzok''. Go ahead, do a word search, I dare you. The source '''does not say that the notes were about anything Peter Strzok said'''. The association of that line with Peter Strzok is entirely an invention of the mind of PackMecEng. And that is entirely the problem here - PackMecEng apparently came to Talk:Peter Strzok with the single-minded intent of depicting Strzok as a villain and was so hell-bent on doing it as to make unsupported claims, read nonexistent words in sources which don't support their statements, and then double down three times when challenged, rather than read the source, realize they were wrong, and acknowledge their error. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 01:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC) |
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PackMecEng&action=history Notified here] |
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PackMecEng&action=history Notified here] |
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Revision as of 01:02, 3 May 2020
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Yae4
There is consensus here for an indefinite topic ban from climate change. Also noting that, as this is the user's first sanction, an appeal that recognizes the problem and commits to fixing it, combined with constructive editing elsewhere, should be granted. ~Awilley (talk) 23:09, 1 May 2020 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Yae4
In Yae4's view many articles have been "FUBAR'd by climate change alarmists". Climate change alarmist is a pejorative used to dismiss mainstream views on climate change (and "a particularly infantile smear considering what is at stake" according to that linked article). Holding a fringe POV is theoretically fine, Wikipedia does not require ideological groupthink, but his POV comes across in disruptive article edits and talk space activism promoting idiosyncratic and non-mainstream views in a contentious area at a time of heightened political tension, and that is not fine. I believe that a restriction from at least mainspace editing related to climate change is justified. Explaining reality-based policies such as WP:FRINGE to editors who reject the mainstream view is a source of tension and burnout, and, bluntly, wasted time. Guy (help!) 14:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Yae4Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Yae4
JzG/Guy's Climate change alarmist quote source is a 404 (and bad archive link). Details matter. Kerry_Emanuel starts the paragraph: Dividing the entire field of climate research into “believers,” “skeptics,” “deniers,” and so on is a particularly egregious tactic deployed by those who wish to discredit climate research. Science is not about belief, it is about evidence. Projections of climate change by the IPCC are deeply skeptical, and there is no attempt to hide the large uncertainty of climate forecasts. The possible outcomes, as far as we have been able to discern, range from benign to catastrophic.
-- Yae4 (talk) 09:00, 30 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by PaleoNeonateI would also like to point at "Note the usual recruiting of huge anti-fans here" at the current Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harold Ambler discussion. And to this related NPOVN thread: WP:NPOVN § Non-NPOV at Climate Feedback (and budding edit war, poor sources, and more). At the AfD, voters are disparate, as can be expected, especially that the discussion is actually about the subject's notability. As for "anti-fans", shouldn't Wikipedia simply reflect the scientific and academic consensus? The prevention of undue promotion in relation to climate-change denial is part of normal editor duties and not activism. I didn't have the time to dig for diffs yet, but have noticed slow edit wars on various articles. I might post some examples later. An eventual topic ban seems unevitable. —PaleoNeonate – 23:36, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
JFG: You do not appear to realize that persistent civil POV pushing in relation to various articles, with the promotion of unreliable sources, is disruptive and wasting the community's precious time. The report is not about a content dispute. —PaleoNeonate – 08:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by JleviThe user does not tend to follow core editing policies on climate-related pages, operating in a manner that make it difficult to engage constructively. I will highlight some WP:RS and Wikipedia:Dispute resolution problems that occurred over a long span of time. Note that these diffs occurred on WP:BLP pages. - diff from 21 January 2020 Non-RS sources restated on the talk page without any RS-related arguments after removal from a BLP entry (diff Jan 19). - diff from 23 January 2020 Unwillingness to discuss issues and focus on content. - diff from 23 January 2020 More ref-bombing without consideration for source quality.
- diff from 20 April 2020 Ref-bombing with demonstrated lack of understanding of WP:RS and WP:N guidelines. These sources were largely present in the article when Yae4 moved it into mainspace (article at that time). - diff from 20 April 2020 Unwillingness to 1) discuss further, or 2) to consolidate sources. - diff from 23 April 2020 Collapsing another editor's comments outside the WP:COLLAPSENO talkpage behavioral guideline. Edit: I reverted to Yae4's collapse under the good-faith assumption that they were correctly conducting their behavior, but a review of the relevant guideline makes clear that this wasn't the case. Thus, this provides one example of acting without knowledge or instinct for behavioral guidelines. Jlevi (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC) Please note that all the interactions above come from my personal interactions with the editor, so I am not an outside observer. However, I think I have provided a reasonable analysis of the diffs in questions, as well as of the lack of movement on these issues. On quick inspection, it seems like the user's handling of policy outside of the climate domain appears more accurate. This suggests that this may be a domain-specific problem, though I have not engaged with the user extensively outside of the climate domain and hesitate to speak about quality of edits in technology- and company-related articles. 15:49, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Edit: Added mainspace examples. Jlevi (talk) 23:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC) To be clear, I to a large extent take Springee's points. Yae4 brings a lot of enthusiasm, and that's worth supporting. If it were tempered with some judiciousness in the future, then all the better. I'm somewhat more bearish than Springee on the probability of reform, given that article deletions would probably result in reappraisal of one's actions for most (and Yae4 will soon have a third deletion due to lack of awareness of policy), but a permanent topic ban would probably be excessive. Jlevi (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by BuffsIf this person is such a problem, why have they not been blocked for any length of time? [3]. It seems that this should have been done prior to WP:AE. DS already gives that authority. Shouldn't we try something else first? Buffs (talk) 18:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by PackMecEngEl_C & Bishonen How can we be past warning if they have never been warned or sanctioned? PackMecEng (talk) 19:13, 25 April 2020 (UTC) @El C: Correct it is not required. That is not what I was saying though. Why go straight to a sanction when no warnings, sanctions, or issues have occurred before this point? Generally they get a chance to correct problematic behavior before a restriction. If this is something that has been going on this long I would expect to see something, anything in fact before this. PackMecEng (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Statement by JFGI don't see much more than disagreement about content here, and the accused editor has replied cogently to accusations. The matter could be settled by a reminder to tread lightly in a DS subject matter, and strictly adhere to RS sourcing. Sanctions such as a TBAN would look punitive rather than preventive at this time. — JFG talk 06:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by AtsmeAppears to be a case of a new editor needing a mentor rather than a t-ban or a block right out of the box. Lighten up - let's not run-off all of our newbie editors. Remove your dentures and gum 'em first, especially those who just need a little guidance. It's a learning process. If your ban hammer trigger finger itches, go fight some vandals...j/s. Atsme Talk 📧 18:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by SpringeeSeems like a new editor who probably can contribute once they get the hang of things. A knock upside the head followed by some guidance, not removal from the island, is probably the correct remedy here. I would start with telling Yae4 the fact that you are here and admins are discussing some form of possible sanctions is a good sign that you dune messed up. But that doesn't nessicarily mean you are a lost cause or can't be fixed. Here are some generally true things that many new editors miss. 1. Not everyone who disagrees with you or reverts your edits s a POV pusher. When you are new, much like a teen you know you are right and those who object are cleraly wrong. That is often not the case. Often it's because you aren't following accepted practices that often aren't obvious to new editors. Things like getting consensus before making changes when edits have been rejected, asking for help if you are certain you are right but, dang it, editors just arnen't hearing you. Sometimes it's good to look back at article histories and see how/why people were able to get consensus for changes. Sometimes it's understanding that you just aren't going to succeed if its you vs several editors. Anyway, when new and enthusiastic it's easy to cross invisible lines then end up here. 2. Pay attention to the diffs above. Try to understand why they are being used as evidence against you. At the same time, for anyone who posed a diff, please be willing to explain why it's wrong so Yae4 will have the knowledge needed to avoid similar mistakes in the future. As for the appropriate "knock", perhaps a warning or perhaps a short term tban (say 1 month). As this is the first official anything I would suggest something other than an indef. Give the editor some rope. Hopefully they will use it to build a bridge not a noose. Springee (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC) @Awilley, Bishonen, and RexxS:, could I offer an alternative suggestion. Several times I've suggested what I have called a soft-indef tban. The idea is that the editor is tbanned until they can show they understand the issue. The idea is that as soon as the editor understands what they did wrong and stops doing those things, the tban becomes punative rather than protection. So in a case like this where there is no prior warning history the tban is indef but also understood that the bar to lift it is light. So they can appeal almost right away (I would suggest waiting at least a week) and if they can explain what bad behaviors they will avoid in the future it gets lifted. The worst case scenario is the ban is put back in place. The best case is that we didn't needlessly tban an editor who was going to make a positive contribution to Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 16:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by OIDTo those above saying 'Oh they are a new editor'. Check the editing history, despite only starting in August 2019, they are by no means anything close to what a new editor would be. Quack Quack. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Yae4
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Eternal Father
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Eternal Father
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Eternal Father (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff) :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 2020-04-28 cites a Fox News opinion piece in support of tendentious content on Michael Flynn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by NorthBySouthBaranof
- 2020-04-28 introduces negative BLP content to Joe Biden sexual assault allegation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by Wikieditor19920
- 2020-04-28 Editoriliaising at Mike Cernovich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), rverted by Grayfell
- 2020-04-24 Unsourced promotion of Mike Cernovich, reverted by JzG
- 2020-04-20 WP:UNDUE promotin of Mike Cernovich at Jeffrey Epstein, reverted by Calton
- 2020-04-19 tendentious addiution of Mike Cernovichg at Investigative journalism, reverted by JzG (n.b: there is consensus at talk:Mike Cernovich that he is not a journalist, and he admits he only calls himself one to trigger people).
- 2020-04-18 Promotion of Mike Cernovich at Roger Stone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by Grayfell; reinserted and reverted by Calton; reinserted and reverted again by Calton; reinserted and reverted by Muboshgu
There are plenty more where those came from.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above (diff).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Eternal Father came to my notice as a result of promtional editing of Mike Cernovich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where he argued (unsuccessfully) to classify Cernovich as a journalist, based on WP:SYN (see my analysis of the propoosed sources at permalink). He has since then received warnings and advice from many experienced Wikipedians including Calton, Doug Weller, Muboshgu and MelanieN. Bluntly, I don't think he's getting it.
Case in point: Draft:Hoaxed (2019 Film) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was declined on 15 April and 19 April, by different reviewers, but Eternal Father created it by copy-paste into mainspace anyway at Hoaxed (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), leading to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hoaxed with attendant canvassing (e.g. [5]).
It seems clear that Eternal Father is a fan of Mike Cernovich's work, which is a red flag in itself given that Cernovich is pretty much universally described as a right-wing provocateur or troll. He's also a fan of Project Veritas. This likely explains the recurrent problem of failure to understand what constitutes reliable sourcing on Wikipedia, as exemplified in the Hoaxed article, and what constitutes OR/SYN, per the Cernovich article.
In order to reduce drama, I think Eternal Father should have a 12 month topic ban from AP2, to give him time to learn Wikipedia's sourcing and content policies in areas less prone to strife. Guy (help!) 09:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- DGG A narrower ban would be fine by me but should probably include O'Keefe / Project Veritas and Jack Posobiec as well, since those are also a focus. I agree that the principal problem as seen to date is centred on Cernovich but I read it as right-wing faux journalists (not disputing your underlying point that this is much narrower than the entirety of US politics and, implicitly, that excessively broad sanctions are to be avoided). Guy (help!) 16:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[ diff]
Discussion concerning Eternal Father
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Wikieditor19920
I definitely had a big problem with this user's addition at the Joe Biden article. It strings together information to suggest guilt in a way that sources do not explicitly do, and some sources have taken active efforts to avoid, namely conflating the Biden inappropriate touching with the sexual assault allegation. Whether this on its own warrants a ban, I don't know. I've seen a lot of concerning behavior at Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden and I doubt all of it will be sanctioned. I don't think that revert on its own warrants a ban rather than a warning. However, if it's part of an overall pattern of POV editing as JzG suggests, a ban might be appropriate. Will leave that for others to decide.
@Eternal Father: WP:SYNTH. The content you added is in a reliable source, but presented to imply a conclusion not stated by the source. And please place your replies in the appropriate section: yours. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 05:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
(Edit) I've moved EF's reply to his section, since he chose to reply directly under my statement. This is after I asked him to do so himself here and on his talk page. This user does not follow rules even when asked to do so. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Eternal Father
Note: more information can be found on the talk pages of those articles Several users have consistently reverted edits, a pattern which may indicate political bias on their part, if not for assumed good faith. None of the edits have been found to be factually untrue and fall under subjective and matters of opinion, like how reliable sources, like Bloomberg and Fox News consider Cernovich to be a journalist, it seems multiple editors "oppose" this because they don't like his work. From my perspective, simply adding basic facts (backed by RS) is considered "promotion" by those that simply don't like Cernovich or other figures. As for BRD, I've seen plenty of B (bold), R (revisions), but not, however, much discussion on the talk pages by those that have make the revisions.
Why do the articles on Steve Bannon and Sean Spicer get to include an infobox module of their military record, but not Cernovich or Posobiec (whose article calls him an "internet troll" and has multiple instances of neutrality violations)? That doesn't make much sense to me.
The Mike Cernovich article, along with others, does not currently have a neutral point of view. He filed several motions, which are public record and have been substantially reported on. To deny this is to deny fact, which is against the spirit of Wikipedia.
1. The Michael Flynn source may include opinion, but the supplemental court filing is fact, and the statement from his attorney indicated that exculpatory evidence ("Brady Disclosure") was produced. Once those documents are made available to the public, this will be expounded upon further.
2. The same content is in the main Joe Biden article, and should be in the allegation article, as his other instances of confirmed inappropriate behaviour are relevant.
3. A simple analysis of the diff logs will show that JzG was the one who first "editorialized" the Seder section of the Cernovich article, under the deceptive guise of "removing unreliable sources".
Original: "On November 28, 2017, Cernovich published a post on [Medium] that resurfaced a deleted tweet progressive talk radio host Sam Seder wrote in 2009 joking about convicted statutory rapist and fugitive film director Roman Polanski.[1][2] The tweet read,"
JzG: "Cernovich promted a conservative attack on Sam Seder"
4. Cernovich has been considered part of the IDW.,but again, that is a subjective matter of opinion, and it seems that Wikipedia is dependent upon the press to decide. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/intellectual-dark-web.html
5. There were only 3 parties to the motion: Alan Dershowitz, and then Mike Cernovich filed along to that motion, and then the Miami Herald. So "other media" doesn't make sense in that context.
6. I believe the accuser is referring to the addition of investigative journalist and Project Veritas Chairman, James O'Keefe (not Cernovich), to the list of notable investigative reporters, to which I see no issue.
7. Allegations of jury bias in a Federal case are a serious matter, especially given the publicity that it received. Cernovich did, in fact, file a motion to unseal the jury questionnaires., which is a relevant and notable detail of the Roger Stone Trial.
Overall, this seems to be a matter of the accuser's narrative, not facts, as those have not been disputed. Eternal Father (talk) 10:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ O'Connor, Lydia (December 5, 2017). "MSNBC Gives In To Disingenuous Right-Wing Smear, Fires Sam Seder". Huffington Post. Oath Inc. Retrieved December 10, 2017.
- ^ "MSNBC to Cut Ties With Sam Seder After Roman Polanski Rape Joke (Exclusive)". TheWrap. 2017-12-04. Retrieved 2017-12-05.
user:wikieditor19920 See statement below. The content in the Joe Biden Allegation article is also in the main Joe Biden article. Why have you not challenged or removed it from there as well? Eternal Father (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Buffs
Am I the only one seeing a pattern of issues being brought to WP:AE by JzG that a) are at least partly frivolous in nature b) should simply be handled by Admins via DS (if warranted) and c) seem to be targeting conservatives? The first piece of evidence seems to be that he added a sourced addition to an article. Buffs (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof: I get it. You don't like conservative opinions. He's hardly a conspiracist (certainly not a "noted" one). He certainly is pro-Trump. But regardless of that, it was a piece published by a reliable source of information. If you find something in it inaccurate, that's ok! Point it out and we can talk about it, but you cannot dismiss it just because he's conservative or has made some inaccurate statements in the past. Buffs (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Labeling dissenting opinions of someone as a "conspiracy theorist" + looking at his previous contributions...I'm pretty confident my assessment is spot on. As for reviewing our core policies, perhaps you would be so kind as to reduce the vague and condescending remarks and specify what policy you're referring to; it seems rather pointless to guess. Buffs (talk) 16:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof
Buffs, if you think that an opinion column written by a noted conspiracy theorist is ever a usable source for anything other than the columnist's attributed opinion, you may wish to review WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:DUE. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Buffs I'm not sure what you want me to call someone who peddles false, misleading, and unsubstantiated claims about Hillary Clinton, "deep state collaborators," and the Russia investigation; describes Robert Mueller as "illegitimate and corrupt"; and literally changes his mind about whether grand juries are good or bad overnight depending on whether the grand jury is investigating Hillary or Trump. You are experienced enough to know that we have higher standards for sourcing than that. An opinion column written by a partisan columnist clearly and indisputably fails WP:V for any other purpose than sourcing the attributed opinion of the columnist. Never facts. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
Buffs, once you finish reviewing those core policies, you might want to read NorthBySouthBaranof's comment again, since nowhere there does NbSB say anything even close to "I don't like conservative opinions," or even imply it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Doug Weller than an AP ban seems like a better solution than a single-subject ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Rusf10
Another frivolous filing by the biased administrator JZG. I don't see anything more than a content dispute here. If you want to know how out of mainstream JZG's views are, just read his essay User:JzG/Politics. He describes the Democratic Party as "a centre-right party". Sure, I've heard people describe it as center-left or even centrist, but center-right is ridiculous, and it must mean he views Republicans (or anyone that would usually be considered conservative in the United States) as far-right. But he doesn't stop there he goes a step further by accusing the Republican party of voter fraud (isn't that a conspiracy theory???) and it compares to the Conservative Party which is run by "white nationalists" and "people who want to go back to the 1950s, when it was fine to be racist". Someone with extremist views like this should at the very least not have any administrative duties in the area of politics.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Result concerning Eternal Father
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It would seem sufficient to block his editing the Cernowitz article, and from inserting his name elsewhere in Wikipedia . That's the principal complaint. DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I presume you mean a topic ban from anything regarding Mike Cernovich anywhere on the project. I'd certainly support that. Doug Weller talk 17:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. The only question is whether the topic ban should be broadened to include O'Keefe / Project Veritas and Jack Posobiec as Guy suggests. I only see diff 6 as mentioning O'Keefe, but it may be worth asking if there is further evidence available? --RexxS (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Although looking again at his edits and the above, I think if he's not banned from AP he'll be brought back here again. Doug Weller talk 18:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- Does anyone object to an AP topic ban? Time to close this. Doug Weller talk 18:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Janj9088
Topic ban from EE for one year, broadly construed. Further misconduct, including but not limited to aspersions, will be met with more severe sanctions — probably an indefinite block. I'll note for the benefit of Janj9088, that WP:SPI is the only venue to make claims of socking, anywhere else it is a personal attack. El_C 20:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Janj9088
The above restrictions are clearly visible when you try to edit the article in question.
Anyone editing the page is alerted about discretionary sanctions, there is a huge wall of text that opens up stating You must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article. You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article. You are required to abide by a civility restriction Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans, and are subject to discretionary sanctions while editing this page. An administrator has applied the restriction above to this page. This is due to an arbitration decision which authorised discretionary sanctions for edits and pages relating to Eastern Europe or the Balkans. If you breach the restriction on this page, you may be blocked or otherwise sanctioned. Please edit carefully. Discretionary sanctions have been used by an administrator to place restrictions on all edits to this page. Discretionary sanctions can also be used against individual editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any Wikipedia policy and editorial norm. Before you make any more edits to pages in this topic area, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system and the applicable arbitration decision. Also worrying is the fact that immediately another account was created to reinsert the edits[7]
Discussion concerning Janj9088Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Janj9088(user is blocked for 31h for sockpuppetry) Statement by PiotrusSetting aside the fact that the user reported here is in violation of discretionary sanctions visible on article's talk page and in the edit mode but also in violation of the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations I also find it very suspicious that this account Fireslow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was created, first to revert at the affected article, then apparently to stalk my edits. I think some quick blocks are in order as I think it is apparent that Fireslow is a sock that is not here to build encyclopedia, but to create mischief. If there is a CU around they could check if there is an obvious connection to the other account, but it is also possible it is a different troll who has been infesting this topic area recently and is just playing around. Hopefully when I wake up tomorrow this will be dealt with with a semi on article and a block on the obvious troll sock accounts... here's hoping. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by BuffsWhy are we even here? Cannot someone apply WP:DS? Likewise, I'm loathed to enact a block of someone while they are unable to respond. Buffs (talk) 14:02, 29 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by KyohyiProcedural comment only: Awareness requirements as specified on WP: AC/DS were not met prior to this filing. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Janj9088
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PackMecEng
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning PackMecEng
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- PackMecEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAP2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 1 May Makes defamatory claims about Peter Strzok, a living person, which are poorly sourced or entirely unsourced.
- 1 May
Abuses rollback toReverts my redaction of those statements and a warning that BLP applies to all spaces on the encyclopedia. - 1 May Reinserts the unsupported, unsourced defamatory statement with a threat - "Yeah, don't touch my post again."
- 1 May Once again reinserts unsupported, unsourced defamatory statement after being warned.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, here.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
PackMecEng made a talkpage post on Talk:Peter Strzok which made several unsourced or poorly-sourced defamatory claims about the article subject. Their claims included misconduct, lying, or deception - sourced to opinion columns and NewsMax articles, or in some cases entirely unsourced whatsoever. In this edit, I redacted those claims and warned PackMecEng that BLP applies to all spaces in the encyclopedia. In response, PackMecEng abused rollback to undo my redaction and warning. They then repeated the unsourced statement again after I redacted it again. I request that rollback be removed from PackMecEng and that they be warned that BLP applies in all spaces. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Specifically, PackMecEng wrote The Hill reporting notes from director of counterintelligence on what Strzok said: What's our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?"
However, the cited source nowhere says the word Strzok and thus obviously does not say that Strzok said that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Given this user's continuing inability to understand how BLP requires us to use quality sources and not make unsupported defamatory claims about people, I request that PackMecEng be topic-banned. They clearly are not able to edit in this topic space with the due consideration for facts and sensitivity required when dealing with living people.
The issue here is one common to political articles - we have an editor who races to the biography of a living person related to a controversy in order to stuff it full of dubious, unsupported, and outright false claims based upon poor partisan sources and misrepresentation of sources. A two-minute reading of The Hill article would have demonstrated to PackMecEng that the source did not, indeed, say what they claimed it said. However, instead of taking that time to investigate and make sure that what they said about a living person was correct - they simply hit the rollback button, because how dare anyone dispute their personal perception and pre-planned condemnation of Strzok which so preoccupied him as to claim that a source which never mentioned the words Peter Strzok supported a claim that Peter Strzok said something. They apparently aren't capable of taking their blinders off and editing with a fair mind and a sensitive eye in this topicspace, so they shouldn't be allowed to edit it anymore. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Which Hill piece attributes the quote to Strzok? Not the one linked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Swarm: If you're referring to this opinion column in The Hill, it also does not say that Strzok said those words.
All this led to a meeting at the highest levels of the FBI which included the director and the FBI’s head of counterintelligence, who took copious notes. It is in these notes that he reflected the discussion that took place about Flynn, writing: “Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute or get him fired.”
That, in fact, says that Strzok did not say those words. Strzok was not the FBI's head of counterintelligence. He was a high-ranking official in that division, but he was not the head of CI. That's besides the fact that opinion columns are obviously not acceptable reliable sources for claims of fact about other people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)- @NorthBySouthBaranof: You're 100% right. Struck accordingly. Strzok was a Chief of Counterespionage and a Deputy Director of Counterintelligence, it seems I conflated the two. ~Swarm~ {sting} 21:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- I have struck the statement about rollback - I will take on good faith that it was inadvertent. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Buffs: No one - certainly not me - has suggested that PackMecEng be blocked or banned from the encyclopedia. What I have suggested is that, at the very least, a strong logged warning is in order for misrepresenting sources to negatively portray a living person, and that given their evident disinterest in admitting that they have seriously violated policy in this case, a topic ban on Peter Strzok, broadly construed, may be in order if they can't demonstrate that they a) understand that they seriously violated policy and b) can be trusted to edit in that topic space responsibly in the future. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Buffs: You're absolutely, 100% wrong that
It really isn't NorthBySouthBaranof's place to redact other people's comments.
The Biographies of Living Persons policy is straightforward and clear: All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. The statements in question were and are false, defamatory, and not supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source, and therefore must not be on Wikipedia in any fashion. The end. - That it was on a talk page is immaterial: This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material. I don't have to file an ANI report or find an admin to enforce a policy, and the burden of evidence falls entirely on PackMecEng, not me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Buffs: Again, I'm not sure how to make it any clearer: You are 100% wrong. The cited source never mentions Peter Strzok. Go ahead, do a word search, I dare you. The source does not say that the notes were about anything Peter Strzok said. The association of that line with Peter Strzok is entirely an invention of the mind of PackMecEng. And that is entirely the problem here - PackMecEng apparently came to Talk:Peter Strzok with the single-minded intent of depicting Strzok as a villain and was so hell-bent on doing it as to make unsupported claims, read nonexistent words in sources which don't support their statements, and then double down three times when challenged, rather than read the source, realize they were wrong, and acknowledge their error. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notified here
Discussion concerning PackMecEng
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by PackMecEng.
The rollback was actually a miss click, meant to hit undo but you reverted before I could. Also what threat? PackMecEng (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
The altering interview notes is from here, specifically Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik reacted strongly on Thursday to the news FBI officials to altered a 302 report and reopened the case when the initial analysis indicated no crime had been committed
. PackMecEng (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Related to that this was a talk page discussion warning, ironically, that the article might get a bunch of POV pushers and bad sources and to keep an eye out for such things. I noted below that here, it was not a specific proposal for the article. PackMecEng (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Per The Hill But then FBI agent Peter Strzok intervened with the idea that the never-used Logan Act could be invoked against Flynn; Strzok was cheered on by FBI attorney Lisa Page. All this led to a meeting at the highest levels of the FBI which included the director and the FBI’s head of counterintelligence, who took copious notes. It is in these notes that he reflected the discussion that took place about Flynn, writing: “Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute or get him fired.” No constructional protections were afforded Flynn, who was even advised by the FBI not to bring a lawyer when he was questioned by agents.
PackMecEng (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
And another Yahoo Dated January 24, 2017, the same day of the White House interview with Flynn that was conducted by FBI agents Peter Strzok and Joe Pientka, the handwritten notes apparently reveal that at least one agent believed the purpose of the interview was to entrap Flynn — or he believed that was the goal of his fellow agents and was trying to push back on them in the name of institutional integrity.
Though again, this was not purposed content for the article but listing sources and something to watch out if it gets more coverage. I appreciate NorthBySouthBaranof's wanting to protect BLP but I think they jumped the gun a little going straight to a only warning followed closely with AE was overkill. The reverts as I added more sources were not the best either. PackMecEng (talk) 00:24, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by MONGO
This is a developing story still CNN, WaPo. I think that as this is not being forced into an article itself but being discussed on the talkpage a reminder to be cautious will suffice. Remember to approach BLPs with a "do no harm" thought process.--MONGO (talk) 01:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
Well, I was hoping to make this an early night - it is Friday after all - but I've been spending it on research instead. I typically try to steer clear of RECENTISM but when a credible author like Jonathan Turley publishes an article on his website regarding this same topic, it begs to be read, if for no other reason than to learn about what's going on with Strzok according to a legal analyst for NBC & CBS News as well as being a highly credible professor and Chair of Public Interest Law at The George Washington University Law School. He discussed the release of the new FBI documents and he also mentions Strzok's role but I won't quote his analysis here. I'll just leave this link for the admins reviewing this case to read for themselves, if they haven't already seen it. I also recommend that prior to making any decisions in this case - including a potential boomerang - that those involved in this case become a bit more familiar with the information at the link I just provided, as well as the articles PackMecEng attempted to discuss before being drug over here. We don't have to like the contents, and as far as I know, we are still allowed to discuss it on an article TP with links to the articles we're discussing. If we intend to add controversial material to a BLP, we use in-text attribution, verify the information is published by a RS and cite it accordingly. Atsme Talk 📧 02:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Buffs
Point of order here. I see no warning that this would be taken to Arbitration Enforcement nor of discretionary sanctions. As such, this complaint belongs at WP:AN or WP:ANI for BLP violations. Likewise, this user has never once been blocked via normal means. Escalating to this venue seems preposterous. Many other avenues are available. This is the second such recent request of a conservative voice going straight from no blocks to a ban with no prior notice. It seems more than in bad faith to take this route. WP:IAR, maybe, but twice in a week? Without following our standards of warnings, blocks, bans progression?...unseemly, IMHO. Buffs (talk) 03:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Please get your facts straight before you comment
Keep it WP:CIVIL. My facts are straight. I never stated that there was a requirement to do so. I stated that we have standards of escalating discipline for disruptive behavior. This goes straight from a warning, past any block for disruptive behavior, past any block under discretionary sanctions (which have already been authorized by ArbCom), and brings it here; it's unnecessary. Furthermore, reasonable people can disagree about whether the information is accurate. Accordingly, no, it doesn't belong here. As for the AE notice and sanctions, the AE notification is listed as the history of their talk page; it doesn't specify the edit. The DS notification indeed was in February, but is within the realm of possibility that he didn't realize that this specific page was under DS. My point is that we're jumping straight to a ban when literally NO other actions (other than a single vague warning) have even been attempted. XavierItzm is spot on too. Lastly, you're pretty clearly advocating to Topic Ban him...that's a ban. I never said "ban from wikipedia"; it's a lot easier to win an argument when you intentionally misquote/bring in strawmen arguments... Buffs (talk) 22:56, 2 May 2020 (UTC)- This is all about a single disputed comment on a talk page. Whether it's accurate or not, it's certainly within the realm of possibility that it was a simple mistake. It really isn't NorthBySouthBaranof's place to redact other people's comments. I too would have taken offense at someone changing my remarks, especially in that manner. He should have reported it to WP:ANI and let the admins deal with it rather than argue and edit-war with him. WP:BOOMERANG should apply. Buffs (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof: The statement was "The Hill reporting notes from director of counterintelligence on what Strzok said...". I don't see this as quoting Strzok but the DCI's comment ON Strzok. Ergo, given the multiple sources, I don't see the issue here. I'm aware of BLP. You should have removed it and then, when re-added, report it to an an appropriate venue. Buffs (talk) 00:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- This is all about a single disputed comment on a talk page. Whether it's accurate or not, it's certainly within the realm of possibility that it was a simple mistake. It really isn't NorthBySouthBaranof's place to redact other people's comments. I too would have taken offense at someone changing my remarks, especially in that manner. He should have reported it to WP:ANI and let the admins deal with it rather than argue and edit-war with him. WP:BOOMERANG should apply. Buffs (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
Buffs: As noted above, PME received an AP DS notification in February. There is no requirement that another notification be given before filing an AE report, simply that the editor in question has been informed of the sanctions. Nor is a history of blocks required to file a report here. Please get your facts straight before you comment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:54, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by XavierItzm
I was coming here to ARE to raise a formal complaint about an unrelated editor/incident, having already done my due diligence, collected diffs, etc. Then I see the big bold warning at the top about vexatious litigation, and look at this here complaint that is based on a TP suggestion for material to be considered, unrelated DS warnings from other users from months ago, and a single incident where one user asserts WP:BIO, and I wonder how far this case is distanced from the vexatious warning above; after all, consider the contributions above by MONGO, Atsme and Buffs regarding do no harm, fair progression, other media sources, etc.
Consider this: even Swarm got confused by reading the one of six sources for consideration PackMecEng added to which an objection was raised and at first Swarm thought PackMecEng was justified.
Note that NorthBySouthBaranof's objection was to the lack of the word "Strzok", not to the fact that Strzok was Chief of Counterespionage and a Deputy Director of Counterintelligence and not the FBI's head of counterintelligence (like Swarm misread at first). Is Pack not going to be afforded the same margin as Swarm?
I for one think that if warnings are going to be issued, perhaps both parties might be warned. Or perhaps this here ARE will be clarificatory enough for both. XavierItzm (talk) 11:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning PackMecEng
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- On the one hand, PME is literally discussing sources, and it may just be a good faith difference in interpretation of what the sources are saying. On the other hand, I can see where the redactions are coming from, because it's not obvious to me where the sources correspond with PME's statements.
I could probably give PME a pass on the quotation, because the Hill piece does attribute the quote to Strzok.Sources either say that the note was written by the Director of Counterintelligence or that the author was unknown. I also don't see where the sources mention Strzok "Altering interview notes and trying to purposly get Flynn fired." Even assuming Strzok wrote the note, which no source claims, it would still not substantiate the claim in the slightest. PackMecEng, can you clarify how you believe that your statements are drawn from reliable sources, and not unsubstantiated accusation? As an aside, I wouldn't even broach the topic of revoking Rollback over a single misuse, intentional or not. As PME says it was unintentional, we can probably let that slide. ~Swarm~ {sting} 21:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC) - A quick googling of the phrase
"What’s our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?"
indicates that the words were probably written by a guy named Bill Priestap example source and that the context is unclear (whether it was personal musings or recording a conversation). I didn't find anything indicating that Peter Strzok said that. But I only clicked on 5 results or so, so maybe I missed something. For what it's worth, this kind of thing (misrepresenting a source and then doubling down when challenged) is something I explicitly warned PackMecEng against in the past. [9] ~Awilley (talk) 23:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)