Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

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DragonTiger23

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning DragonTiger23

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Proudbolsahye (talk) 08:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: DragonTiger23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBMAC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Aggressive, incivil behavior

28 June 2013 The user added a negative comment about two other contributors for no other reason than that they have been in a conflict with him on an entirely different article. Please keep in mind that the discussion on the talkpage is over two years old and DragonTiger23 had nothing ever to do with the article. The user then reports the very same users to WP:ANI under the charges of harassment when one of the users deleted the negative comment with a proper edit-summary. What makes matters more interesting is that upon filing the report, he himself already knew that the comments were from 2011 (See: "Yesterday I was randomly reading the talkpage of Talk:Janina Vilayet when I noticed that there had been a discussion in 2011 and exactly the same users were supporting each other against another user.") Not surprisingly, the report ended with a WP:Boomerang where many Admins (Future Perfect at Sunrise, GB Fan and Bwilkins) got involved and expressed their concerns over the users actions.

Aggressive and insulting edit summaries. These edits I believe are most problematic...almost horrifying.

The user makes a blank edit in order to insult another user by using the edit-summary by saying "Hahaha I knew my edit would be reverted, so you people are now so blinded with hate ur going to revert all my edits even if they are true". A couple minutes later, he makes another blank edit and says "But I will not add the info back :) dont care ur blind hate". There were no edits made between both these blank edits by any user.

Personal attacks (self explanatory)

1,2,3 are all from the same talkpage:

2 June 2013 "But I see that you have no clue about the architecture of the building" and ends his comment saying "I will not edit it as it shows the power of ignorance." and with "So I now hope from this case that you learn how wrong it is to have negative assumptions."

Aggressive tone

10 June 2013 "Your argument makes no sense, have you even read what I wrote?" and in the same edit "So instead of repeating your dogma ("Ottomans not reliable") please do a little bit thinking and research." The comment was towards me and I have never said "Ottomans not reliable" at anytime in my career as a Wikipedian. The accusation is entirely disruptive and violate 2E of Wikipedia:Civility.
26 June 2013 "The sources are given, read them first."
"Yes you suffer severely from wp:idontlikeit and cherrypicking" The user tends to make unsubstantiated accusations of JDLI of almost all editors he/she disputes with: (See: 26 June 2013 edits - A case of WP:LIKE? (There's a CE to the edit here)...and follows up with Hmmm yes clearly a case of WP:JDLI. Other examples that I can think of include: 11 June 2013 , 2 June 2013 , 8 June 2013, 10 June 2013, 10 June 2013, 10 June 2013, 10 June 2013
2 June 2013 "But I see clearly that you have no understanding of the architecture of Hagia Sophia, if you had we should not have this discussion."

2 June 2013 - The aggressive tone and baseless accusations continue in the same talkpage towards the same user: "You are again lying and trying to discredit me"..."You have very biased assumptions of me and the Hagia Sophia dispute I also did the correct thing but it does not matter if you can't understand." In addition to this edit, he/she added "do not lie anymore." and repeated it throughout the discussion towards the same user...
"so stop lying"
"Why are you lying?"
Even after the user was warned for his blank edits as mentioned above.

POV editing

29 June 2013 A massive 4,000+ character edit with highly unsourced POV content such as: "Since 1830 the majority of non-Greek toponyms in Greece have been changed to Greek ones thereby erasing the history of the people and location for the sake of nationalism.", "The ideal of modern Greece was to create a nation state, with no minorities and to do away anything which remainded to such a past. The ideal was Ancient Greece and the goal was to assimilate all the Orthodox Christians to accept an identity as Greeks, most of them did."
28 June 2013 "the non Greek inhabitants were largely gone and instead of them Greek refugees from the Ottoman Empire settled in the area thereby changing its demography." Contentious unsourced POV material

Ownership of articles (self explanatory)

Geographical name changes in Greece
Gemlik-Yalova Peninsula Massacres
I found this a big issue. He/she edits persistently and does not cooperate in talk pages. When edits are done by other editors, it is met with edit-warring from the user (He/she has already been blocked for edit-warring four times in his career). The users lack of cooperation is further explained in the next section. (note: He/she has been notified of this as well)

Impossible to work with

14 May 2013 "I already gave the source, I don't care whether you believe it or not"
As stated in the sections above, the fact that the user considers all those that disagree with him as people with "dogmas", liers, or people that suffer from WP:JDLI makes cooperation almost impossible in itself let alone the personal attacks that go along with it.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warned on 28 June 2013 by Alexikoua (talk · contribs)
Warned on 10 June 2013 by Proudbolsahye (talk · contribs)
Warned on 8 June 2013 by Kansas Bear (talk · contribs)
Warned on 29 May 2013 by Bbb23 (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: I apologize for the length of the report, but the disruption caused by this user is massive, long-term, and across dozens of articles and talk pages. It is a classic case of a user that treats Wikipedia as though it is a battleground. I have distinctly noticed that the user is not here to build a neutral encyclopedia where Greek related topics are concerned, but to fight great battles and right great wrongs. I have only included diffs from the last 3-4 weeks or so, which gives an idea of how intensive the disruption is. DragonTiger23 is responsible for virtually every kind of disruption I can think of, or have experienced in my years of editing Wikipedia. I have witnessed incivility, edit-warring, POINTy retaliatory behavior, tendentious editing, ethnic baiting and an ultimate disregard for the many warnings issued. As far as his agenda, it is apparent from his contributions that almost all his edits in relation to Greeks or Byzantines have been an attempt to present them as people who conduct massacres, murders and etc. Part of his agenda early on was to "expose the Greek army crimes" which I feel says a lot about his battleground agenda. Other symptoms of battleground editing is when the user created articles and templates in a retaliatory manner. The Template:Greek nationalism is a carbon copy of the Template:Turkish nationalism in terms of the sections and set up. The user has even copied and pasted large chunks of Geographical name changes in Turkey to a new Geographical name changes in Greece article and changed the word Turk to Greek to fulfill his/her goal. Grant it, there is nothing wrong with creating such templates and articles in general, however, I pointed these out because it may provide better understanding of the retaliatory measures he takes in the battleground he/she assumes himself/herself in. Anyhow, for the many concerns I have raised above, I propose that DragonTiger23 be banned from all topics relating to Greeks per WP:ARBMAC.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: notified

Discussion concerning DragonTiger23

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by DragonTiger23

I am for years a neutral contributor to Wikipedia and I am not very active on "massacres" topics. The entire disagreement with several users began when I created Gemlik-Yalova Peninsula massacres (A Greek army massacre of Turkish villages in 1921). For years there has been almost no information about Turkish civilian casualties in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) on Wikipedia, but there were huge casualties, it deserves an article. (While Greek and Armenian have their own articles, which I have absolutely no problem with and I never denied them). So I thought wikipedia was a neutral encyclopedia which is not selective in presenting the information. I thought it was not a crime when I created an article where Greeks massacre Turks. I had done a lot of research on the events in 1921 and created the article by using neutral western sources. However after the creation of the article I could never develop it properly because I got into several heated discussions for which I was warned and blocked two times. Afterwards I said I would not edit that page anymore and I kept my promise. Besides I accused some people of WP:JDLI not immediately, but after I gave huge chunks of text with explanation and people still ignored or denied them.

So these are all old cherry picked sentences from heated discussions, where I was constantly accused of being POV, nationalist and so on. If anybody cares they can read the talkpage [1] where I answered their accusations with arguments and properly sources. I am still constantly being accused of being non-neutral.[2] [3], [4]

So User:Proudbolsahye is cherrypicking sentences from those several months old dicussion and now uses them for which I was already warned and blocked twice to block me again.

I also do not understand why I should be blocked from all Greek related topics, I am not even active on those. I never denied Turks massacring Greeks or others. I created List of massacres in the Byzantine Empire because User:Proudbolsahye proposed to remove Byzantine massacres from the List of massacres in Turkey and it was removed. Geographical name changes in Greece,Template:Greek nationalism, I do not see what is wrong with creating these, they are facts based on sources. I also edited mostly on the demographic history of Greek countries such as Cyprus [[5]] and the table in this section of Nicosia [[6]]. I have also added massacres committed by Turks against Greeks and others towards Byzantines.[7] [8] I am also working on a article of Turkish massacres against Armenians User:DragonTiger23/ List of anti Armenian massacres during 1894–1896

I do not understand User:Proudbolsahye's (I have had very little discussion with him in the past) sudden attempt to let me block for monthly old comments (towards others) for which I was already warned and blocked. I am also not doing WP:Battle, I am just creating articles for neglected information. Is it forbidding to create articles related to topics such as massacres and human rights only because the subject is Greece or other certain countries?

Note: User:Proudbolsahye accuses me of "all his edits in relation to Greeks or Byzantines have been an attempt to present them as people who conduct massacres, murders" (which is obviously not true) is himself the creator of numerous Turkish related articles (which I have absolutely no problem with) such as: Template:Turkish nationalism, Geographical name changes in Turkey, Citizen speak Turkish!, Confiscated Armenian properties in Turkey, Animal name changes in Turkey, 1934 Turkish Resettlement Law, Sevag Balıkçı.

DragonTiger23 (talk) 11:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by DragonTiger23

First of all I would like to thank you Future Perfect at Sunrise for clarifying and understanding my situation and point in the article of Hagia Sophia and the discussion with the specified user. For I suck at defending myself, especially when multiple users are ganging up against me, for this is how I feel the situation and it is becoming more and more unpleasant for me to edit on Wikipedia. Secondly, I feel like my comments are ignored (perhaps my English isn't understandable), so I will try to keep it brief this time (I don't want to bring up months old discussions, but I have to since above users already did). If someone wants more information or a clarification of the points I will give below, I can elaborate on them.

It should be no surprise that editors with whom I have had different opinions on previous discussions, will now try to get rid of their "self-declared opponent" and them being aware of this discussion here should give more insight about the harassment I feel. Alexikoua believes that I "decided to lead an endless national campaign." and thinks that I'm "continuing E4024's national campaign".
- I never cooperated with E4024 on any article as far as I can remember and this user has also been banned (I don't know why) for a very long time and thus was not involved in any of my discussions with Alexikoua or others, so involving this user is totally irrelevant.
- I do not lead a "national campaign" against anyone or anything. The fact that I have been editing on the page of List of massacres in Turkey (including well-sourced massacres during the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922), which were completely ignored), move "massacres in the Byzantine Empire" from the previous article into its own article (List of massacres in the Byzantine Empire), creating Gemlik-Yalova Peninsula massacres (based on Western sources, an Inter Allied Commission and the Red Cross) which I eventually stopped editing due to continually being disrupted by the specified user, who was source abusing by trying to lower the number of casualties from +-6,000 to only 35, even after I wrote chunks of explanation on the talkpage and for instance gave examples of individual cases in which the casualties already exceeded 35, Alexikoua insisted that the total casualties were 35. (the whole discussion can be found on Talk:Yalova_Peninsula_Massacres_(1920–21)#Severe_pov) Please note that this was very frustrating since nobody else cared to correct Alexikoua's mistake.
- Whenever I made an edit which apparently Alexikoua didn't like he "retaliated" and was not so critical about large numbers (as in the case of Gemlik-Yalova): 23 June 2013[9], 17 June 2013 [10], 17 June 2013 [11], 10 June 2013 [12], 10 June 2013 [13], 10 June 2013 [14], 3 June 2013 [15], 2 June 2013 [16], 31 May 2013 [17], 18 April 2013 [18]

While at the same time acting like a "doomsayer" (trying to recruit other users; note that he thinks E4024 was "trying to recruit me"): 10 June 2013 [19], 10 June 2013 [20], 9 June 2013 [21]

- All of these discussions are long and old. I don't want to include all of them because then my comment would be even longer. The point is that I acknowledge that I have made mistakes, but it is not as black-and-white as the complainers are trying to portray. See for instance Alexikoua's "retaliations".
- Please also note that I have never deleted well-sourced information which was added by Alexikoua or the others, and that I also included information about Turks massacring others (see my first statement).
  - I have never had a discussion with Chauahuasachca who claims that I "argued in a very aggressive manner". Please remember that in that old discussion I was constantly being called a "neo-ottoman/Islamic POV pusher" and eventually Admin Future Perfect at Sunrise himself became involved and [22] supported my edit![23]DragonTiger23 (talk) 10:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary notes by Fut.Perf.

For the moment, I'll just make one observation about the edits on Hagia Sophia： while DragonTiger's sarcastic tone in his edit summary [24] is certainly not desirable, some amount of frustration on his part is understandable in this instance, as his prior edit was indeed quite correct and constructive (as has now been conclusively determined on the talkpage), and the erroneous statement he was trying to fix had been sitting in the article as an unsourced piece of rather blatantly false OR for a long time. He had been blanket-reverted quickly and without discussion [25], by an editor who evidently overlooked the fact that the previous version was unsourced and obviously implausible (and who then made another – good-faith – error when trying to find sourcing for it afterwards). The fact that this disagreement came up again in a heated exchange between the same two editors on an entirely unrelated talkpage a few days later (Talk:Istanbul riots#Minimize or maximize) shows that there is evidently a lot of bad blood between these editors now, and I can't say the fault is entirely on one side, as here too DragonTiger was evidently correct about the need to fix an incorrectly cited source. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More: I would strongly recommend the filer strike the diffs listed as #2 under "Aggressive and insulting edit summaries", and both items under "Trolling and simultaneously personally attacking". There is nothing actionable in these, and the presence of these items in this report only creates a "more heat than light" situation and suggests that the filer is trying to "get" an opponent by sheer quantity and not quality of complaints. This [26] diff shows DT responding to a very severe piece of criticism of himself on another user's talkpage, so calling it an instance of "hounding" is patently baseless, and its tone is hardly more aggressive than the posting it replied to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same goes for all four items under "Personal attacks": numbers 1–3 are from before the warnings, and #4 is not a personal attack. "You have no clue about the architecture of this building" is a piece of criticism, stated in a rather sharp tone, but not a personal attack. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chauahuasachca

I had a strong feeling this was going happen. I remember this user a couple months back when he argued in a very aggressive manner over the Sultan Mehmed article. I knew he was going to be future problem with his disruptive edits. Turns out his pattern of aggressive language, POV editing and personal attacks have continued at a large scale. His most recent disruptive edit at the Talkpage of Janina Vilayet is very concerning. Even at the ANI board he was making sarcastic remarks towards the Admins and is generally very difficult to work with. I agree with a topic ban under ARBMAC.--Chauahuasachca (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alexikoua

Apart from the above mentioned issues, which mainly describe a problematic behaviour by DT23, it's useful to add the following:

DT23 ignores any kind of advice so far: a latest example was a weird report he recently filled and ended up in wp:boomerang[[27]]. Although he was kindly advised by several parts that such kind of behaviour isn't appropriate the answer was again sarcastic [[28]] "then please perma-block me then", concluding that he can't accept basic rules.
Unfortunately the only piece of advice it seems so far he took into account was from user:E4024, who shares the same extreme pov. The latter in his desperate attempt to recruit DT23 wrote to his talkpage that [[29]] ("Please nobody come to tell me about principles, WP is about national complexes (of those who have lost [i.e. the non-Turks)" (E4024 received his permablock next day).
It seems that E4024's advice was DT23's turning point and then (at early May) decided to lead an endless national campaign. No wonder after that he is interested in promoting an extreme pov (massacres against Turks became his favourite topic). It wouldn't be bad, but he tends to use partisan material [[30]], and always overemphasize about crimes against Turks, by wp:QUOTEFARM the specific parts, even in articles that are not specialized in that events [[31]].
This pattern is accompanied by highly sarcastic talkpage comments and edit summaries (one of the earliest examples of aggressive behaviour [[32]], 2 weeks after E4024' advice).Alexikoua (talk) 06:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Athenean

What I find particularly disruptive about this user is a certain petty, vindictive, tit-for-tat behavior. For example, recently he created an article Geographical name changes in Greece. The lede of the article reads

The geographical name change in Greece was an initiative by the Greek government to replace non-Greek geographical and topographic names within the Greek Republic with Greek names as part of a policy and ideology of Hellenisation.[1][2]The main proponent of the initiative has been a Greek homogenization social-engineering campaign which aimed to assimilate or obliterate geographical or topographical names that were deemed foreign and divisive against Greek unity or considered to be "bad Greek".[2] The names that were considered foreign were usually of Ottoman, Albanian, Slavic and Turkish origin.

Interestingly, this is exactly the same wording as the lede of Geographical name changes in Turkey:

The geographical name change program of Turkey was an initiative by the Turkish government to replace non-Turkish geographical and topographic names within the Turkish Republic or the Ottoman Empire with Turkish names,[1][2][3][4][5] as part of a policy of Turkification.[6][7][8] The main proponent of the initiative has been a Turkish homogenization social-engineering campaign which aimed to assimilate or obliterate geographical or topographical names that were deemed foreign and divisive against Turkish unity. The names that were considered foreign were usually of Armenian, Greek, Laz, Georgian, Bulgarian, Kurdish, Assyrian, or Arabic origin.

Evidently incensed by the existence of Geographical name changes in Turkey, he "retaliated" by creating the article on Greece and using the same wording, then looked for sources after the fact. While there is nothing wrong with creating an article on geographical name changes in Greece, the fact that he used the same wording in the lede as in Geographical name changes in Turkey shows retaliatory intent. The modus operandi appears to be "You offend my country's honor? I'll offend yours". This is a long, established pattern. Several months ago he got into a furious spat over the sexuality of Mehmed the Conqueror [33] [34] [35] [36], he "retaliated" by going around articles on European royalty and adding that they were LGBT [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] . When confronted about this [42], he pretty much admits that he is doing to "retaliate" agains what he perceives to be a smear against Mehmed [43] ("I do not normally edit LGBT issues but I saw how eager IPs and Users are adding these categories to Ottoman rulers (Ofcourse because of hate towards Ottomans) so I thought maybe I should add these same categories to LGBT people where they seem to forget to add it(!)."). Needless to say, this is WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in its clearest, purest form, and it is impossible to collaborate with someone who thinks and acts like that. Athenean (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning DragonTiger23

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

A sanction is not possible because it appears that DragonTiger23 has not yet received a warning of the type required per WP:AC/DS#Warnings (that is, with a link to the arbitration case). That being so, the most we can do is to issue that warning. Even a brief glance at the lengthy report indicates that it is needed, see for instance edit summaries such as [44] or obviously non-neutral unreferenced contributions such as [45] ("Since 1830 the majority of non-Greek toponyms in Greece have been changed to Greek ones thereby erasing the history of the people and location for the sake of nationalism.") Accordingly, I am warning DragonTiger23 that if they continue with conduct of the sort reported here, they will likely be banned from making any edits related to Greece, Turkey or other Balkans countries. Sandstein 18:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strike that, I'm mistaken. DragonTiger23 was warned with a link to the arbitration case on 10 June 2013. Proudbolsahye, please amend your request by indicating the date of all later problematic edits so that we can see which ones are potentially actionable here. Sandstein 18:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The editor seems redeemable, but the bad behavior listed here is too much to overlook. I'd suggest a six-month topic ban under WP:ARBMAC for anything related to Greece or Greeks. He already has four blocks for edit warring. Somebody who has been here since 2010 ought by now to be familiar with our customs. EdJohnston (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, though I'd prefer a shorter sanction: from among the post-10 June dated diffs, which are the only ones I'm examining, only the "for the sake of nationalism" edit mentioned above appears problematic, and that one edit is probably not enough to warrant a six-month topic ban. Sandstein 17:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drg55

indefinitely topic-banned.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Drg55

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Prioryman (talk) 07:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Drg55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Single purpose accounts with agendas, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Editors instructed

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

08:37, 13 June 2013, 02:24, 18 June 2013 – Repeated addition of unsourced POV content to Bare-faced Messiah, a Good Article
01:19, 30 June 2013, 05:31, 2 July 2013 – Repeated addition of unreliably sourced content (personal blogs and a Church of Scientology attack website) to the same
05:56, 2 July 2013 Attacks on other editors
16:40, 9 April 2013 Attack on source (a living individual), contrary to WP:BLP

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

[46] Warned on 18 June 2013 by Prioryman (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Although several editors have tried to engage with Drg55 on various talk pages, he has persisted in very aggressive pro-Scientology advocacy over the past few months. He has edited disruptively, particularly on Bare-faced Messiah, which attained Good Article status earlier this year, and has attacked other editors as "unreconstructed neo fascist[s]". This is quite obviously contrary to the admonition at the top of every page in this topic area to "edit in accordance with all Wikipedia policies and to refrain from any form of advocacy concerning any external controversy, dispute, allegation, or proceeding." Prioryman (talk) 07:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

08:21, 2 July 2013

Discussion concerning Drg55

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Drg55

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Drg55

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I don't think I need to read much further than the "unreconstructed neo fascist" bit or the "our critics are generally insane" bit here [47]. Topic-banned. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by drg55

Procedurally moved here from WP:ANI. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Appealing user: drg55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Drg55 (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Drg55

Administrator imposing the sanction: Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise&diff=562793562&oldid=562793465

Statement by drg55

1. Rush to judgement, I was topic banned from Scientology and religion before I had a chance to respond. 2. I am being accused under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Single purpose accounts with agendas I have exposed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bare-faced_Messiah#Complaints_by_User:Drg55 that user MartinPoulter has an agenda against Scientology, http://infobomb.org/ Not only is he giving talks "around the country" (usually in pubs) http://biasandbelief.wordpress.com/martins-talks-and-lectures/ but he has a 20 year history of attacks on Scientology in alt.religion.Scientology http://www.spaink.net/cos/mpoulter/scum.html ("Three religions take your pick" by Martin is incoherent undergraduate abuse) Martin mentions "bias research" on his user page, but does not mention his history of antagonism to Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MartinPoulter#Scientology.2FDianetics He claims credit for writing the Bare-Faced Messiah page along with Prioryman who complained about me leading to my block. 3. Scientology is one of the most popular items on the internet in Wikipedia we out rate Christianity yet what is characteristic is a new form of fascism which is intolerant of other points of view, I described it as (unreconstructed neo fascist) hence the rush to block me contrary to neutral point of view. 4. The edit which resulted in a warning for me was my deletion of a line from a newspaper article which was factually incorrect by comparison with the book. Prioryman calls this original research, I call it an unreliable source. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560476870&oldid=560410248 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=559685829&oldid=550158142 Additionally in the summary of the book I added in that disaffected Scientologists were a source, Prioryman said that was original research, so I deleted the lines about FoI docs and stolen diaries being used in the book, as they were not sourced either. I think a little common sense would apply as per WP:IAR. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560477183&oldid=560476870 5. Fut.Perf says: "I don't think I need to read much further than the "unreconstructed neo fascist" bit or the "our critics are generally insane" bit here [48]. Topic-banned. Fut.Perf." Actually our critics are generally insane and go completely overboard applies mainly to the sources used in the book and some of the other attackers over the years and is one reason why we are still here. It is a bit of a freudian slip where Fut.per identifies editors as critics. 6. The article has a section "Reaction from Hubbard's followers", surely here one would find some comments. I put some in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=562506859&oldid=562495611 Prioryman called them bad sources. There is a difference I have had trouble getting across to him that while yes a blog may not be a very good source, just like newspaper articles which are rushed and rewritten from previous articles as source, but if a person makes a personal statement in a blog, and the object in this case is the "Reaction from Hubbard's followers" then it is factual and valid. Similarly with the Scientology website and and Independent Scientologist website on Bare-Faced Messiah (wise old goat - Michel Snoeck), which is referenced here http://scientologistsfreezone.com/links.shtml. As it happens while I used to be an official for the Church and I have discussions with them from time to time I have been told they don't like me referencing Freezone Scientology, and they would prefer if I wasn't editing Wikipedia Scientology references for that matter. I don't happen to agree with the Free zone, but then I don't always agree with current management either, however I support the Church for pragmatic reasons, more right than wrong. I put these quotes in because Prioryman wanted me to get a source to say that BFM was based on disaffected Scientologists so I found one. He deleted it and I admit I put it back in with further comments. I might get a better source later on if I am permitted to continue editing. 7. I therefore request that the block be lifted, or if I am to be blocked Martin Poulter is also blocked. I still don't know Prioryman's orientation because he didn't answer my questions, but it can be expected that at least half of editors in Scientology issues are from opposed sources. The answer I think is a bit of tolerance all round. 8 The internet war with Scientology began originally by anti religious kidnappers and skeptics, the article "cult" (the most visited in Wikipedia) states that ideas of "brainwashing" in new religious groups are discreditted "In the late 1980s, psychologists and sociologists started to abandon theories like brainwashing and mind-control. While scholars may believe that various less dramatic coercive psychological mechanisms could influence group members, they came to see conversion to new religious movements principally as an act of a rational choice" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Anti-cult_movements_and_their_impact Legal victories such as the destruction of Cult Awareness Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Awareness_Network played a part. Scientology now has sufficient religious recognition that views otherwise should be viewed as prejudice. However pockets remain and Martin Poulter thinks we are a cult and it certainly drives the skeptics to drink. I don't really mind contrary views in wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements. I appeal to administrators to allow me to continue. (additional comments) Let me clarify that I bear no ill will to Martin Poulter or Prioryman.Drg55 (talk) 08:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Yes, Yogesh, for instance in my edit to the Scientology as a business lede I put in very good sources that brought that tussle to a resolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology_as_a_business&diff=prev&oldid=552247114 I mostly want to correct false reports, as I have already argued the Bare-Faced Messiah article has an imputation that Scientology became a religion for business purposes which is from a newspaper article but not borne out by the actual quote in the book http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=559685829&oldid=550158142 This is important, this page was created by Martin Poulter who has a long history against Scientology outside Wikipedia. Similarly I believe now Prioryman has such a history but this was deleted by Future Perfect at Sunrise as it would identify him. If they can be there so should I. Alternatively we all can be topic banned and the article deleted as it is an out of print book which was put online by a person. If you check into alt.religion.scientology you find the worst of internet prejudice everything that Wikipedia is seeking to avoid. My description of it was considered and not an insult, a little tongue in cheek, perhaps I should have used quotation marks. Martin Poulter in his "three religions" article wrote: "Here is a comparison of three zany joke religions: the Church of the SubGenius, Kibology and Scientology. Make YOUR MIND up about which is the most nutty". I'm happy to keep this type of language out of Wikipedia.Drg55 (talk) 21:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fut.Perf

Apparently Drg55 thinks that calling other people "unreconstructed neo-fascists" and "insane" is okay if it's not directed at fellow editors but at people outside Wikipedia. Well, it is not. Moreover, the "neo-fascist" bit clearly was directed also at fellow editors. Drg55 apparently cannot see anything wrong with it, and just wants to be allowed to continue editing as before. Recommend speedy closure and rejection of this appeal, and possibly a block for repeating the insults even in this appeal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MartinPoulter

I do not see a logical argument that starts with Drg55's statements above (including a lot that is nothing to do with Wikipedia) and concludes that this appeal should be upheld.

What I do see, on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ego_(spirituality) ("atheists just don't get it", 'Therefore there are no "reliable sources" a source is ok in so far that a point of view exists. [...] Probably accepted points of view are the ones not to be trusted.') Talk:Scientology as a business ("Scientology Assists help medicine to work. We believe that our practices qualify as spiritual healing.") and Talk:Bare-faced_Messiah ("you are in with the Skeptics, which is a definite bias." "The fact that the media backed the book looks like black propaganda"), are general attacks on "atheists" and "skeptics", innuendo about specific other editors, promotion of the user's beliefs that are irrelevant to the articles, and attacks on reliable sources after the relevant policies have been explained courteously by other editors. That's even if Drg55 gets the benefit of the doubt over earlier contributions. While I have not campaigned for this user to be sanctioned, I can understand anyone who gets a WP:NOTHERE impression. I don't feel attacked, but I do feel that this user has yet to demonstrate they are a benefit to Wikipedia. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by drg55

Pointless discussion unrelated to the appeal archived. Sandstein 18:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

(1) I see one editor hereunder ridiculing a certain belief system, and calling names that Future Perfect says shouldn't be called. No belief system can be judged rationally, there is a belief system that considers that all women are descendents of a mother female who was made by a superior being from the ribs of a male. Or that a certain human was born asexually, or that the world was created in six days and the male being who created it rested on the seventh. So beliefs are beliefs. Since I'm uninvolved I haven't checked on the issue so I can't comment on Wikipedia violations by the editor being discussed. I like others would need time. (2) It is also seen that there wasn't too much discussion on the enforcement request, and opportunity to respond was not afforded. (3) I also suggest that the said editor strike out the fascist comments, and apologise for hurt they cause, whether intended or not. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~I also don't understand why Saedon and Thomas are using the sub-section reserved for admins? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)~~moved appropriately while being transferred here. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No idea why this is on AN/I, but let's be direct here: scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject. Your violations of policy aside, after reading your contributions it's clear you lack the competence to contribute to WP in a constructive fashion. I understand we have a certain level of decorum here, wherein we generally don't call out editors on their beliefs, but in cases where editors are attempting to push an abjectly inane belief system we need to drop the facade and simply call a spade a spade. Sædon^talk 09:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to chime in here too (starting by saying that I'm uninvolved on WP but not totally uninvolved in discussions regarding the cult of Scientology since I was actively involved in the often very heated discussions on alt.religion.scientology during the 1990s). Giving mouthpieces for the so-called Church of Scientology free rein on articles about Scientology on Wikipedia is like giving members of the propaganda ministries of the most extreme right and left wing political groups free rein on articles regarding their organisations and the activities of said organisations. So I most definitely support slapping editing restrictions on drg55. Thomas.W ^talk _{rap sheet} 09:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to suggest that anyone using the phrase "Actually our critics are generally insane" in an appeal against a topic ban has somewhat misunderstood the purpose of the appeal - or simply lacks the competence and/or objectivity to ever contribute usefully to any article remotely connected with the subject of the ban. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why: "scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject"? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If that is supposed to be a response to my comment, I fail to see your point. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How is it different from the comment you quoted? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't commenting on what anyone else has said. I was responding to drg55's misguided attempts to argue that critics of Scientology are insane, and that this justifies his behaviour. If you wish to complain about comments made by others, do so in an appropriate place, rather than implying that my comments have anything to do with it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Highlighting one while ignoring another. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that is 'discussing the topic of this thread - the topic ban on drg55'. How about you doing the same? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can we ignore such extreme provocation and abuse taking place even during his topic ban review discussion? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What part of "I wasn't commenting on what anyone else has said" is so difficult for you to understand? If you have problems with what others have written, don't make out that I'm somehow responsible for it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok! Why do you choose to ignore one and highlight another? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did it just to annoy you. Any more stupid questions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Yogesh Khandke: I noticed User:Yogesh Khandke claiming that someone had made "fascist comments" here and wanted them struck, but as far as I can see no-one has made any such comments ("fascist comments" to me is implying that someone or something supports fascist ideology). What I have done is saying that the level of fanaticism of Scientology mouthpieces is comparable to the level of fanaticism of adherents of extreme left or right wing political ideologies. Which has nothing to do with sharing extreme left wing (i.e. anarchist/Trotskist/Leninist or any of the other dozens of leftist flavours) or extreme right wing (i.e. fascist) ideology. So there's nothing to strike, atleast not in what I wrote. Thomas.W ^talk _{rap sheet} 17:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please lose the invective all round here, and concentrate on the edits rather than editors' affiliations? In that vein, I will note that Prioryman's recent revert here was absolutely justified. Drg55 should accept that s/he can't cite pro-Scientology blogs, any more than anti-Scientologists should cite anti-Scientology blogs. Andreas JN466 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I request user:Drg55 to understand what is required of him, "unconditional acceptance and adherence to Wikipedia policies, not tit for tat, whatever the provocation. Having said that would we be able to read, his "I don't really mind contrary views in Wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements" as his requesting that he wishes to add balancing content after making sure it passes wp:RS, wp:V, wp:UNDUE and other policies? A clarification from user:Drg55 would be helpful. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@user:Drg55 (1) I asked a simple clarification. Do you understand the policies that govern editing Wikipedia and do you commit to abide by them, whether it is Scientology or any other subject? There is an impression as I understand here that your breach of policies regarding your edits at Scientology are hurting the project. (2) If you do not understand policies clearly enough, perhaps you could "learn them on the job", by editing areas that you don't feel too strongly about, and then come back to have your ban revoked. (3) Perhaps you could appeal to have your ban repealed, but continue to stay away from Scientology on your own, understand policies and then come back after you have gained better understanding. I'm not saying you don't understand policies well enough, just proposing a plan B. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@user:Drg55: I'm not assuming you're wrong and the other editor is right, this is your ban appeal and I don't think finding faults with other editors helps here. You have to provide an undertaking that you won't be disruptive in the said area and then your ban perhaps would be reconsidered by the powers that be. I'm just trying to help you understand the process (according to the best of my understanding). Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by drg55

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

So far, User:Drg55 is not giving us much reason to lift his topic ban. He says: "I don't really mind contrary views in wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements. I appeal to administrators to allow me to continue." So, he would like equal time for Drg55 to insert his personal opinion to balance out whatever he disagrees with in our Scientology coverage? That's not how we achieve neutrality; see WP:RS. We rely on editors being clear-headed enough to write neutrally about what the sources have printed. Someone who so proudly wears his non-neutrality is unlikely to work effectively in these areas. EdJohnston (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. To the limited extent the appeal is even understandable, its tone and content demonstrate why a topic ban is warranted in this case.

Separately, I find the comment by Saedon above ("scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult", "an abjectly inane belief system") to be completely unacceptable. Under no circumstances may editors personally attack each other, and especially not on the grounds of each others' religious beliefs. I am blocking Saedon for 48 hours for personal attacks and harrassment, as a normal administrator action, and I am also warning them about the discretionary sanctions that apply in this topic area. Sandstein 17:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani

The petitioner, No More Mr Nice Guy, is banned from WP:ARBPIA-related AE discussions. Sandstein 22:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nishidani

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Decorum

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

The following diffs show behavior that can only be described as Jew-baiting, trolling and soapboxing.

[49] Using the term "Chosen People" for Jews is part of an age old anti-Semitic canard. It's an obvious slur. You can start here if you're not aware of that.
[50] Says the Jewish holiday of Purim is a celebration of genocide.
[51] Links to an opinion piece on well known hate site aljazeerah.info (not to be confused with aljazeera.com)
[52] In a discussion about what to call the Judean Hills, he jumps in with this completely off topic "offensive to Jewish eyes" trolling.
[53] When called on the above, he doubles down with a Nazi comparison.
[54] And here we have a little bit of everything. Making fun of Jewish holidays, dehumanizing Israelis, Nazi comparisons and general soapboxing.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Nishidani was topic banned as part of the original ARBPIA case and is one of the first 10 editors logged on the ARBPIA notification page, which should be warning enough. But if it isn't, note what Arb xeno said when his topic ban was lifed [55]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Keeping it short, I chose a just few examples from the last few months to show that this is ongoing behavior. If more examples are needed, let me know.

Here's a short quote from the source I supplied above: Anti-Semitic writings of the twentieth century have drawn continuously upon this notorious source and repeated endlessly "the chosen people" canard. The "notorious source" being the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Here's some more information on the subject. That someone could even try to argue that he was just using it as a neutral substitute for "Jews" is amazing to me. Sounds a lot like White people justifying their use of the N-word by saying they heard Black people using it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Saying Purim is a celebration of genocide is like saying that a couple of days ago Egyptians were celebrating sexual assault. It's a malicious attempt to paint a whole group of people as depraved.

Gratuitously posting some ugly thing a Jew said in a completely unrelated discussion is at best trolling. Gratuitously comparing Israelis to Nazis in a completely unrelated discussion is at best trolling. That's what Nishidani did with the "Jewish eyes" quote in a discussion about what the Judean Hills should be called. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand and the only reason he posted it is because he thought his interlocutor is Jewish and he wanted to offend. I'd be quite shocked to see the admins say this kind of behavior is OK, but if they do I'll certainly take it to heart.

@Sandstein: I supplied more than one source (and can supply more) that shows how using Chosen People this way is a slur. As for the rest, imagine someone was repeatedly making such statements against Muslims and their holidays and comparing the Palestinians to Nazis every time he thought he's talking to a Palestinian. I seriously doubt people would be so dismissive. This report is not vexatious, it comes from exasperation. I truly and honestly can't believe you're going to tell him it's ok to say Jews celebrate genocide on what is supposedly a collaborative project. Seriously? Seriously? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[56]

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nishidani

I don't know whether to take this report seriously, esp. after reading the first complaint:

Using the term "Chosen People" for Jews is part of an age old anti-Semitic cannard

I suppose mispelling 'canard' is not part of NMMGG's chronic gaming of language and personal hostility to me (per this recent, and silly comment).

(1)Seriously, where on earth did the rest of this nonsense about the English translation of am segula/am bechira being an anti-semitic canard come from? (see Kevin Avruch's essay in Ian S. Lustick's edited book, SUNY press 1991 p.136) or S. Leyla Gürkan's The Jews as a Chosen People: Tradition and transformation, Routledge 2009 p.176, or Esther Reisel, Rudi Reisel Modern Jewish Identity: A Rationalistic Motivation for Remaining Jewish, ‎Gefen Publishing House 2000, p.97 But surely one doesn't have to fossick in obscure scholarly works to realize the obvious stupidity of that accusation?

(2) I could respond to each edit with dozens of books sources (e.g.on Purim and genocide, commenting on Esther (9:5-16), see Lustick's remarks here, regarding Baruch Goldstein and this incident and subsequent behaviour(and Center of the Storm: A Case Study of Human Rights Abuses in Hebron District (p.82); or Zev Garber's essay ‘Deconstructing Theodicy and Amalekut: A Personal apologia,’ in James F. Moore (ed.) Post Shoah Dialogues: Re-Thinking Our Texts Together, University Press of America, 2004 pp.231-249 p.241 or James F. Moore's essay ‘The Genocidal Mind at the Heart of Our Religions’, in the same book 'Post Shoah Dialogues: Re-Thinking Our Texts Together,' University Press of America, 2004 pp.221-230, pp.223,225.

What NMMGG deplores is the fact I read books and allude to their contents, and indeed edit in the substance of critical Israeli (or Jewish) scholarship onto articles in the I/P area. I've often said that any comment, in response to some other editor's general remarks, which I may make on an I/P page, if queried, will be documented by the book or books I had in mind when making it. It's not me he dislikes (I can provide dozens of diffs of his antipathy): he dislikes books, or the scholarship, if he is aware of it, which is one of the great ornaments of Israeli academia. Do I really have to deal with the rest of this nonsense? I will, but it risks being WP:TLDR and I have a teaching engagement this afternoon.Nishidani (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(3)Antisemitic website? Al-Jazeerah =Aljazeera Publishing=www.aljazeerah.info = antisemitic? Good grief. This really is mind-bending suspiciousness of my twisted deviously sneaking antisemitism. I recall the incident clearly, because someone corrected me on it back then. I read Jonathan Cook 'The Four Guilty Parties Behind Israel's War Criminal Attacks on Gaza,' at Counterpunch 19 Nov 2012. Anyone who cares to check my edits knows I read that daily, and have defended some of the work there on RSN. But, using Counterpunch means someone will challenge that source as RS. So I googled around. He had it on his website, as I found, but that could be dismissed on a personal blog. I saw it reproduced here (Al-Jazeerah, November 19, 2012) and, without opening it, used that link, taking it to refer to Al-Jazeera which passes any test for RS. I was wrong.

Of course NMMGG will say I just made this up. He often repeats I am irreducibly dishonest, ('not for your personal thoughts which not only clearly influence your editing here to the point you put all intellectual honesty aside'.)Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Iselilja Please read the scholarship, and avoid the absurd spinning to 'poison the wells' of analytical discourse in the popular polemical and highly politicized modern press. The idea that referring to 'Chosen People' is anti-semitic will leave large constituencies non-semitic Christians bewildered, as you would have seen had you checked elsewhere in the book NMMGG cited for this. I.e. John Carey and Henry F Carey ‘Hostility in the United Nations Bodies to Judaism, ‘ in Yoram Dinstein, Mala Tabory (eds.) Israel Yearbook on Human Rights, 1987 pp.31ff. p.39, which argues that it is part of Christian doctrine, and that many Christians, the Pope himself (il popolo di Dio =Catholics) defend that notion as proper to themselves. It is a biblical idiom, with a huge hermeneutic literature on it, divagated on lovingly in centuries of pious literature, borrowed by many Christian nations and religious groups ('God's Own People'). This is an encyclopedia optimally based on the best scholarship not a clearing-house for the kind of shallow, loose thinking exemplified by partisan spin-meisters who can never see beyond the rhetorical advantages of engineering points of view. It is the curse of the I/P area esp. that we just don't hew closely to the calmer waters of scholarship, which has to persuade handfuls of experts, rather than win over a constituency by the mendacious manipulation of hackneyed memes. Nishidani (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'A very simplistic view that Jews in Israel treat Palestians unfairly because they see themselves as "the chosen" will often be controversial.'

Could I prevail on you to check Ian Lustick's book which I have often used. There is no allusion, in Lustick, or in my remarks, to 'the Jews in Israel' treating Palestinians unfairly because they see themselves as "the chosen". People in Tel Aviv, and probably even the IDF, would laugh at that. Lustick and several other scholars have surveyed the settler-nationalist-religious interpretations which justifies expropriating land from Palestinians in terms of halakha or revered sources like the Torah. Most Israelis or Jews never read that settler-religious literature, and would be surprised to encounter a statement such as :‘Insofar as they try, violently or otherwise, to resist the extension of Jewish sovereignty over the whole land, Palestinians will indeed be uprooted or destroyed.' (Lustick 1988: pp.78-9). I was alluding to many statements associated with a settler theology, well known by specialists.Nishidani (talk) 20:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein Rather than bar NMMGG from AE, could he be asked to drop the almost obsessive habit of challenging me over many pages in personal terms, either as a danger to wikipedia, an antisemite, or intellectually dishonest in everything I do? If he thinks an edit I make, or an explanation of it on a talk page is wrong, there's a simple way of stating this in neutral terms, without bitching. I'm not distressed by this nonsense. It's just that it wastes time, and I don't have much of it. If I fuck up egregiously, I think he, or anyone else, should retain a right to bring me to book here. It's the snarkiness on talk pages that's the problem.Nishidani (talk) 21:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No More Mr Nice Guy. Look, in the face of several sources I brought to bear, you keep this antisemite baiting up, apparently refusing to consider them. I'll withdraw my moderate request and asked you to be sanctioned for persistent innuendo, insistent WP:AGF infractions and harassment (with numerous diffs) if you persist. So drop it.Nishidani (talk) 09:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at your sources. None of them justify the kind of language you've been using or the gratuitous references to Jews behaving badly you bring up when you don't like what someone says. Your sources refer to small groups of fundamentalists, and you tar every Jew with the same brush. A non-Jew calling Jews "Chosen People" with malice is a slur. It's in the Protocols. It appears tens of thousands of times on stormfront. I find it extremely hard to believe someone as well read as you doesn't know this. The only uninvolved editor here agreed with this point.

Same goes for Purim. The fact a small group of extremists is, well, extreme, doesn't give you the right to tar all Jews as celebrating genocide. I would think this is obvious to any right thinking person.

Anyway, go ahead and withdraw your request. I'd like to see what the admins do with all this. I don't think I can in good conscious volunteer my time in a place where people like you are free to abuse other people based on their supposed religion, and will be, again with all honesty, extremely shocked and disappointed if they allow it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You often mock what strikes you as my exaggerated sensitivity over word nuance and syntax, about being precise in drafting articles in neutral language. Karl Kraus thought attention to minutiae even like commas might have avoided things like the bombing of Shanghai (the wiki version needs correction. That story is rather complex and has several versions). What you are doing is lazily repeating that I am abusing Jews, or smearing them, or making antisemitic ethnic slurs, (now inventing a new one:'abus(ing) other people based on their supposed religion') by refusing to read properly,ignoring what independent eyes say reviewing the evidence and appearing to do so in order to get rid of me on trumped-up charges. I guess, since you are totally insensitive to language, I'll have to show how you've concocted these rubbishy interpretations. So, damn it, Saturday afternoon will be wasted dealing with the details of this obnoxious smear. I'll now attend to each of the other charges, and finesse the earlier ones.Nishidani (talk) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are only two sets of independent eyes here so far, Sandstein and Iselilja. Those who have commented and agree with you are your longtime allies (and Sepsis, who seems like an old ally with a new username). I wish there were more uninvolved people here, but that's all we have so far. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Longtime allies' 'old ally'. Usually you say 'friends'. This is not a campaign with allies and enemies. On your recent complaint that I was inconsistent, I examined your diffs, agreed I had been, and reverted to a text User:Dvl999, and User:Nableezy, to name a few, insisted must be removed since a notorious sock edited it in. As to Sepsis, when he suggested sanctions against User:GHcool for a careless dismissal of Palestinians, he found no support from myself, nor Nableezy for that matter. Good NPOV editors find community support, bad editors sock or tagteam.Nishidani (talk) 13:57, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is the term "Chosen People" often used by anti-Semites as a slur against Jews? This is a simple yes/no question. Please answer honestly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse this late reply. I had a Porlock person afternoon. I hope to have some time tomorrow morning. Briefly, you are saying George W. Bush smeared the elected representatives in the Knesset when he addressed them as follows:

We gather to mark a momentous occasion. Sixty years ago in Tel Aviv, David Ben-Gurion proclaimed Israel's independence, founded on the "natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate." What followed was more than the establishment of a new country. It was the redemption of an ancient promise given to Abraham and Moses and David -- a homeland for the chosen people Eretz Yisrael.'( May, 2008)

Of course the most disturbing thing about this remark was the lack of a connective preposition between 'chosen people' and 'Eretz Yisrael', and as it stands it should be classified as a Bushism, since it confuses am Yisrael, the people, with eretz yisrael, the earth or land. Despite one of the etymologies for Adam, it's making people out to be dirt. A bit like the apocryphal story or spin of the facts, that Kennedy in telling Berliners he was one of them, ballsed up the German and made out he was a pancake.

I hope Todd Gitlin never edits Wiki or NMMGG will haul him before AE for antisemitism.

Todd Gitlin and Liel Leibowitz, The Chosen Peoples: America, Israel, and the Ordeals of Divine Election, Simon & Schuster, 2010. That's a book. Sorry, so read at least his interview with Akiva Eldar. By what Gitlin says there, most of which I agree with, he is an antisemite, since everything you cite as defamation in the links is more or less what he, and untold tens of thousands of sensible people in Israel and the diaspora, think or write. Nishidani (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops. I see one editor below, as this window stayed open for some hours, popped in the same cite from Bush. Nishidani (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is not an honest answer. See Zero's post below for an example of what an honest answer looks like. Amazingly he's the only one of your allies to acknowledge the point. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Allies'? What is this, a rerun of the Atlantic Alliance and WW2? Since your fundamental premise is that I 'put all intellectual honesty aside', just put it down to my usual modus operandi.Nishidani (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wanna simple answer? I've never heard the words 'chosen people' used as an ethnic slur of Jews. My wife who is Italian and a devout Catholic has never heard the word 'popolo eletto' used in a derogative sense.

Zero. My Bible on English usage is the O.E.D.(20 vols.1989). See vol. 111, p.173 col.2 chosen. Could you check the on-line, updated O.E.D. and see if it registers the term in the sense of an 'an anti-semitic canard' used by antisemites to smear Jews? And if so, when did this odd assumption of a pejorative meaning slip into usage? Thanks.Nishidani (talk) 19:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've just checked online. The entry for "chosen" has not been updated since the 1989 edition, and there is no specific entry for "chosen people". There is, however, a link to Oxford Dictionaries pro, where I find the entry:

"chosen people: the Jewish people considered (in Jewish and Christian tradition) as having been selected by God for a special relationship with him.. Originally a secular movement, Zionism has its foundation in the Millenarian belief that the Jews, the chosen people of God, will be reunited from diaspora (dispersion or exile) in their rightful homeland.

- We need to stand together and remain the chosen people.

- He is preaching to Israel, God's chosen people, those who worshiped at the temple and synagogue and believed in the God of Abraham.

- For God's chosen people, with their hard-earned identity of high-mindedness, by definition cannot sink into racist violence.

- This was a wonderful summary of the faith of the chosen people, and I will certainly recommend this article to my friends.

- They saw themselves as God's chosen people, a nation in exile from its land.

- It describes how God chose the Jews to be an example to the world, and how God and his chosen people worked out their relationship.We should all realize that we are the chosen people of Hashem, and we should use the Mitzvot as our clothing to separate us from the rest of the world.

- When the Jews accepted the Torah at Mt. Sinai, they became the chosen people whose role and responsibility was to bring a God-given code of morality to the world.

- We realize that Jews are God's chosen people but we believe we can share in God's care and love."

I hope this helps. RolandR (talk) 21:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very helpful, thank you Roland. I began to suspect that, not hearing much English for three decades, and living basically in a library, I'd missed something. Perhaps I have. I don't follow Stormfront, or outpourings paranoid racial drivel from the usual fringe lunatic mob, though apparently Internet has caught the infection. I do resent the way polemicists try to connect up the trash generated by maniacs with what serious scholars or even critics write. Many decent and accomplished people in academia have been hounded for this polemical obliteration of the tonal and discursive registers. Nuance is dead.Nishidani (talk) 21:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

Huh. So when we say before a Torah reading, "...who chose us from among the peoples", we participate in an "anti-Semitic canard"? Who knew?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. So when one Black person calls another Black person the N-word he's being racist? Who knew?? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now that NMMNG has fixed link #2, I'd like to suggest that instead of wasting everyone's time with gratuitous complaints he should thank Nishidani for posts like #2, which offers a real opportunity for gaining insight into a complex issue. It was an erudite and incisive contribution; it can offend only someone who needs not to encounter a perspective at variance with one's own. Needless to say, Wikipedia is not a good place for people who want not to encounter perspectives at variance with one's own. Perhaps the outcome of this AE request will help reinforce that message. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein, re "vexatious": the fact that NMMNG didn't anticipate the inevitable outcome of an AE request of this sort surely means that any future requests would be similarly otiose. So, yes. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

That link doesnt support the claim that any use of the term Chosen People is antisemitic, it supports that Soviet doctrine attacked the belief of chosenness.
~~Dont see that in the link~~now fixed It does celebrate a double story of attempted and successful genocide, see the article: They decree that Jews may preemptively kill those thought to pose a lethal risk. As a result, on 13 Adar, five hundred attackers and Haman's ten sons are killed in Shushan. Throughout the empire 75,000 of the Jews' enemies are killed (Esther 9:16). On the 14th, another 300 are killed in Shushan. nableezy - 13:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well-known hate site? Huh? That's actually a link to an article by Jonathan Cook, a writer published in academic works on Israel. You not liking something doesnt make it a arbitration decision violation
That was a quote from the chief rabbi of Upper Nazareth, in direct response to your comment.
So what? Somebody cant think that Israeli policies remind them of Nazi policies? Oh thats "new Antisemitism", I must have forgot that we now enforce controversial definitions of thought crime here.
So what? And that was on his talk page.

Regarding the latest "explanation", thats nonsense. Nishidani wasnt drawing on the Protocols, and he wasnt using it as a substitute for Jews. Reading the actual comment, and what it was in response to, makes that clear. As far as the laughable, truly, comparison between the n-word and chosen people, please, get off it. It wouldnt take me any effort to find sources that say as a matter of fact that any use of that term by non-African Americans is at least on its face racist. That you seriously think that is a comparison to be made only enforces my view that this is nothing but a pile of shit youve thrown against the wall in the hopes of removing somebody you clearly disdain. Come to think of it, besides attempting to annoy Nishidani, what exactly have you done on wiki the last several months? Oh, that and defend serial sockpuppeteers. nableezy - 14:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That isnt what happened. You claimed that others were attempting to make a word verboten, and Nishidani, with is encyclopedic memory, remarked on your use of that word. There wasnt anything gratuitous about that comment, except your attempt to play it up into something it isnt for the sole purpose of removing somebody you have done nothing by antagonize over months now. nableezy - 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So it's your position that when someone uses the word "verboten" (like you did here for example) it is a legitimate response to find something racist a coreligionist of theirs said, and post it on the talk page regardless of what the discussion is about? Like I said above, I'd honestly be very surprised indeed to find that admins support this idea, but will definitely take it to heart if they do. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, please dont put words in my mouth. I said Nishidani was remarking on your use of a term, and he may have done so colorfully, but it was in no way racist and further it was in no way a violation of the arbitration decision. Youve been doing nothing but antagonizing Nishidani for months now, and I dont find his comment at all objectionable in that context. And, as Sepsis helpfully pointed out, that edit is 7 months old. If you found it that objectionable why have you been sitting on it for this long? nableezy - 20:05, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It had nothing to do with the issue being discussed or the article in general, and brought up something nasty some Jew said only because he thinks I'm Jewish. That's textbook trolling. Imagine me going "colorfully you say? That reminds me of the colorful picture I saw of a Muslim girl murdered by her father for going out of the house without permission". Would that be acceptable? Be honest. What if I did it over and over? You wouldn't be here lodging a complaint? We both know you would.

The reason I waited was because I thought one such incident on its own might not seem like a big deal, but several over a period of time + the slur would make the abuse obvious. Apparently abusing Jews in this topic area is allowed and showing the abuse has being going on for a while makes the older incidents stale. Live and learn. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thats BS, and repeating it doesnt make it true. Nishidani has not abus[ed] Jews, there was no slur, and repeatedly calling somebody an antisemite when your evidence doesnt support that should result in sanctions. nableezy - 15:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chesdovi

Nableezy, you are dead wrong about Purim. It does not celebrate successful genocide. In the same way as the killing of over 75,000 Syrians in the past two years is not called genocide, and the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (one of which killed 75,000 Japanese in Nagasaki in a single day) genocide, neither was the killing of a few hundred potential Einsatzgruppen in each of the various provinces of the vast Persian empire a genocide. For anyone to suggest that Jews today "celebrate" genocide is disgraceful and offensive. I am surprised Nishidani could even state the same, bearing in mind it was the Jews themselves who were victims of such a brutal genocide a mere few decades ago. It is like saying Jews believe it is permitted to wipe out any nation as long as it's not themselves! Shocking. Chesdovi (talk) 15:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Youre free to believe whatever you wish on what is disgraceful or offensive. Ill just say that there are a host of things that any number of people have written across a number of pages that I find disgraceful and offensive. That does not however mean that those stated views violate any part of the arbitration decision, and I wouldnt be bringing that person to AE because they said something I dislike. Your views are only that, yours, and nobody else is under any obligation to ascribe to those views. And again, look at the context of Nishidani's comments. They werent randomly thrown in, it was in direct response to a comment by somebody else. Finally, there certainly are Jews that believe exactly that. nableezy - 16:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chesdovi. You gave me a barnstar for completely overhauling the article on Joseph's Tomb, and now I am offending Jews? 'Purim (i.e. the megillah recitation) celebrates' does not mean 'the Jews celebrate'. As Lustick says, most ignore the last part in the megillah I alluded to re the second genocide The atomic bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are arguably instances of genocide.(See John Dower's work for the vicious stereotypes which reduced the Japanese to a race of monkeys in the American mind, and thereby allowed the extermination of whole cities of civilians to test a new weapon of mass destruction, to 'send a message to Tokyo' and as revenge to the same done to Chinese and POWs by the Japanese army). In religious terms, the irony of that was tha they 'took out' the two Japanese cities with the strongest Christian connections and communities, while saving archly conservative Kyoto, simply becauseStimson vetoed its destruction due to the fond memories he had of the place (he spent his honeymoon there in 1915, or thereabouts). Einsatzgruppen is an anachronism, but most seriously, the events related in Purim never took place. It is a post-exilic novelette brilliantly crafted for theological ends. It has no ascertainable historical basis, as you assume, and appear to assume I believe.Nishidani (talk) 21:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sepsis

So, firstly 5 of 6 edits are over half a year old. Second there is no problem with the edits, we don't silence people just because they don't share your POV. Unless the Chosen People comment is actually antisemetic (I have no clue on this) there is nothing here but one editor trying to take out an editor for not sharing their POV. Sepsis II (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iselilja

While Jews as the “chosen people” has some foundation is Jewish religion and thinking, it is also a concept that has been terribly misused in anti-Semitic propaganda and is still a beloved sarcasm for Jews among modern anti-Semites. It is normally not considered good form to use it as a general nickname for Jews and I think it’s inappropriate to refer to Jews that way on Wikipedia. Even for religious and ethnic groups with a less traumatic history, it will normally be wise to avoid referring to them in the form of sarcastic nicknames in Wikipedia discussions. These kind of sarcasm do nothing to improve Wikipedia, and have the potential of hurting people and causing disruption. – Taking a quick glance of the diffs provided, several of them are pretty polemic and debate forum like, so I think a more encyclopedic is to be recommended also on talk pages , but as I understand several of the diffs are dated, this may already have happened. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 20:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I too value the comment by Zero which seemed nuanced and insightful. This is a fairly complex and sensitive area. A very simplistic view that Jews in Israel treat Palestians unfairly because they see themselves as "the chosen" will often be controversial; a statement with more qualifications and nuances less so. I never thought that Nishidani should be punished for his choice of words, to make that clear. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 18:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Peter Cohen

@Sandstein. With regards to your proposed restriction of NMMNG, I had a quick look at his contributions and in the last 500 hundred edits all but three (one to Vancouver and two to an article on an Israeli children's author) seemed to be the IP area. I get the impression that that individual is here to fight a propaganda war rather than to build an encyclopedia.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero

I am only going to address the "Chosen People" item. Iselilja says that the concept has "some foundation [in] Jewish religion and thinking" but of course that is a serious understatement. Actually it originates in the Torah (Deut. 14.2, Ex. 19.5–6, etc) and is "a central theological axiom in Jewish tradition from the Bible through contemporary Jewish thought" (The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, 2nd edn., p. 168). Outside Judaism it has a checkered history, ranging from its approving use by generations of Christian philosemites through to its use as a weapon by the worst of antisemites. It is preposterous to damn someone merely on account of its use, as NMMNG does, without making an effort to properly understand what is meant, as NMMNG does not do. Far be from me to read Nishidani's mind, but my impression is that he was not using the phrase as a sarcastic nickname for Jews, but was referencing the use of the concept by those who invoke it as a religious basis for disinheriting Palestinians. This is a widespread phenomenon amongst non-Jews as well as Jews, like it or not. Nishidani could have been more careful in his choice of words, but there is nothing actionable here. Finally, Nishidani and Ykantor, to whom he was replying, should try harder to not discuss the topic but only the article. Zero^talk 16:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dan Murphy

Zero's comment above is a very good one (Deut. 14.2 KJV: "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.") Use of the phrase serves many purposes, and it has a long and noble and positive connotation among both Gentiles and Jews as Zero correctly points out. But NMMNG's sole purpose is to brand an editor he disagrees with as an antisemite to hopefully get him banninated!

He has been continually allowed to insinuate antisemitism against others with false "evidence." He did so again in his most recent comment: "Is the term "Chosen People" often used by anti-Semites as a slur against Jews? This is a simple yes/no question. Please answer honestly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)" He's constructing a false binary with only one "correct" answer as a way to yet again call someone antisemitic without evidence. This is pretty vile stuff and you should bring a stop to it.

Consider: George W. Bush, a noted American friend of Israel, delivered a speech in the Knesset on the country's 60th independence day in 2008. He said: "We gather to mark a momentous occasion. Sixty years ago in Tel Aviv, David Ben-Gurion proclaimed Israel's independence, founded on the "natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate." What followed was more than the establishment of a new country. It was the redemption of an ancient promise given to Abraham and Moses and David -- a homeland for the chosen people Eretz Yisrael." His words were met with rapturous applause by his overwhelmingly Jewish audience (at about 2:50 in that video). Imagine a press conference afterwards. "Mr. President - the phrase "chosen people" is antisemitic, is it not? Answer the question!"

This vile behavior has been allowed to continue for far, far too long.Dan Murphy (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The request is not actionable. Only the first edit is reasonably recent. I don't see how referring to the "Chosen People", in context a sardonic allusion to one of the ethno-religious-nationalist positions espoused by some participants to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, amounts to a slur. The article Jews as the chosen people makes no mention of such a meaning. The other, undated, diffs are from 2012 and clearly not actionable at this point, even if they were disruptive, which at first glance doesn't seem to be the case. But Nishidani (and others) should remember that Wikipedia is not the place for conducting discussions about one's personal views about real-life conflicts. Because these views must not affect the encyclopedia, discussing them here is simply a waste of time and bytes.
The request is also vexatious. I am considering to ban the submitter from AE. Opinions? Sandstein 20:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, we don't seem to be getting any further. Nothing in this discussion convinces me that the term "chosen people" or the Purim comment could reasonably be interpreted as antisemitic. As such, the request is disruptive in that it accuses an editor of serious and ethically tainting misconduct, namely antisemitism, on specious grounds. As contemplated above, No More Mr Nice Guy is indefinitely prohibited from contributing to arbitration enforcement requests or appeals thereof that concern the case WP:ARBPIA, except to defend themselves where any enforcement actions against them are discussed.
In their response, Nishidani also linked to confrontative and incivil comments by No More Mr Nice Guy that needlessly personalized talk page discussions (July 13), but in the same context Nishidani also resorted to a personal attack ("As any twit can see"). This is a cause for concern, but any sanctions against No More Mr Nice Guy (and possibly Nishidani) for their talk page interactions would need to be examined in the course of a dedicated request with sufficient recent diffs as evidence. Sandstein 22:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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