Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

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    Biocentric universe and Robert Lanza

    I came across this little area of quantum woo on Sixty Symbols [1]. I'd like some help in trying to contextualize, sanitize, and organize these two related articles. I'm not even sure the first one deserves an article, so work away and see what you think.

    jps (talk) 23:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Apparently this is an idea which applies to art ?!? jps (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Please review all prior discussions on the Biocentric universe, from the long RFC to do with the page title to various past edit wars, so that you are fully up to speed on the high number of hours that editors have already spent on this. It would be best to avoid repeating any work already done. See especially Archive 1 of the Biocentric universe talk page. Jeremy112233 (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Where was it discussed that this idea has anything to do with art? jps (talk) 19:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to your comment on the need for a page for Biocentric universe and the neutrality of its current format--I'd like to ensure all people new to the page are aware of the lengthy process that has already taken place in terms of weighing the facts and opinions on the page. Not that fresh eyes on any entry aren't welcome. Jeremy112233 (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    See my arguments upon why Lanza should not be regarded as an authority on physics at Talk:Robert Lanza#20 W of energy. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    There seems to be ongoing ownership problems here. Lanza ought to be identified at least as a maverick if not an outright crank. How to do this with respect to WP:FRINGEBLP is the issue. Help would be welcome. Currently, there is a lot of pushback from people who want to argue that SixtySymbols isn't reliable even though this is basically the only place I've seen a quantum physicist comment on Lanza's rather, um, out there proposals that relate to quantum physics. jps (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    When is a myth not a myth

    Creationist advocacy has prevented the article on the creation myth in genesis from being named a creation myth in the article title for years. I would like to remedy that:

    Talk:Genesis creation narrative#Requested move.

    Your input would be appreciated, especially considering that there are likely to be creationist advocates who will show up to complain.

    jps (talk) 02:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    More evidence that this is a canvassing board where neutral language is not at all required. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Presenting yourself as a supporter of neutrality here is very dishonest. You want us to say Christianity is true because it has a lot of followers. LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't spin doctor my argument to suit your purpose, AKA strawman. I do NOT want us to say "Christianity is true" nor have I ever implied such, not even once. Get a grip, man. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Treat ALL religions equally. HiLo48 (talk) 03:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    ..And while you are at it, treat all adherents of a religion equally. Including the majority of Christians, who don't believe Genesis to be literally true... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    And that's purely your polemical assertion about what the majority of Christians supposedly believe according to you! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Data for Americans. [2]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    "Literal" and "inspired word" are essentially the same thing. Both end up with the same major beliefs. Christians who believe either would accept the creation story. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you always want to focus exclusively in Americans? What percentage of El Salvadoreans? Ethiopians? Regardless, we can assume it is sufficient to qualify for SPOV purposes as a "widespread belief system" Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't say that I wanted to focus exclusively on Americans - and I've made it clear elsewhere that I consider the Wikipedia tendency to treat the U.S. as the 'default' is one of the worst symptoms of systematic bias on Wikipedia. I provided the data in question, however, to demonstrate that I wasn't making a 'polemical assertion' - it was based on evidence. And of course, the U.S. has by far the largest number of people professing to be Christians of any nation in the world. The next largest (according to our Christianity by country article, are Brazil and Mexico - both (like El Salvador for that matter) overwhelmingly Catholic. The Catholic Church certainly no longer holds to any doctrine regarding the literal truth of Genesis. Not that it matters, ultimately. The number of people holding a belief system has no relevance to encyclopedic description of the belief system - and accordingly, we should use the same terminology regardless of whether two thousand people or two hundred million people hold it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    In Creation myth we say: "By far the most well-known creation myth is the Genesis creation narrative." (Really?) Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 05:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    When is a myth not a myth? When people believe in it, obviously. We're up against something of a hard place (and it's reflected in the discussion) that tagging this sort of religious explanation a "myth" carries along a pejorative connotation (which I imagine was always intended). I'm not getting involved, but I don't think there's going to be a satisfactory solution; either the skeptical or the believer POV is going to win, but we won't end up with neutrality. Mangoe (talk) 15:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    It shouldn't matter what people believe. Many if not a majority of people believe that seasons are caused by the Earth getting nearer and closer to the Sun. That doesn't and shouldn't affect what we do in Wikipedia, right? There is no "skeptical POV" here. There is only the fact that the most reliable sources identify the creation myth in Genesis as -- wait for it -- a creation myth. It's not surprising at all. jps (talk) 22:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    jps, "citation needed" on your statistics, as they say. But at any rate the obvious problem that any adherent can point out is that those "reliable sources" come from the implicit position that Judaeo-Christian claims about divine creation are untrue in any sense; I wouldn't be the first person to point out that this enables the use of "myth". I can't say I'm all that keen on the current title but anyone can see the lack of neutrality. Mangoe (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    We should go with what the best scholarship says. Scholarship being contemporary writing from the appropriate disciplines: theology, social/cultural anthropology, philosophy. I'm seeing quite a lot of work that uses "myth" as a neutral technical term. There is the argument that "myth" is orally transmitted whereas Genesis is a written account. We have to take that seriously, but it's also well established that an orally transmitted tradition lies behind the written Genesis accounts. The other serious argument is that "narrative" is both neutral and accurate. So I am for "myth", but only weakly. Arguments that are irrelevant include whether Christian editors or readers will be upset, and whether we need to strike a blow for Science. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    If there were a better name for it, I would be in favor of that name. It is the creation myth in Genesis. Some have suggested Genesis creation story, but it's obviously more than a story as it is more than a narrative. I also don't get the argument that a myth has to be an oral tradition. Certainly it has to be based on an oral tradition, but just because it is written down, that doesn't mean the myth becomes somehow something else. One source argues that the literary style isn't similar to other myths in the sense that the dramatic tension isn't there. (I don't think that there is an established claim that myths to be myths must have dramatic tension, but in the case of literary analysis almost anything goes if you are established enough.) This source claims we should call it a "report". That's a pretty weird minority view, but I don't see it as being strong enough to argue against calling the title what it is. The problem is that most of the arguments on the page are swirling around whether the term "myth" is biased or non-neutral. These are bogus arguments that prevent really informed discussion from happening as what is occurring here (after Til left the scene). jps (talk) 14:59, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mangoe Yes, that is what the adherents will object, but sources don't make any implicit assumptions about whether the facticity of the events recounted in the myth or true or not, they just characterize the form of human cultural production as "myth".
    I think that many people supporting the change to "myth" do so on the grounds that the argument that there are more current adherents to Christianity than any other religion that has a creation myth that Christians get to call their creation myth a narrative, implying that there is more historical validity to its content due to its currency among believers; hence, whichever religion has the most believers wins the battle for the truth of their stories, etc. Historic truth thus becomes the providence of the victors on the battlefield of religion (to wax poetic). In fact, that is probably close to the actual status of humanity at present, lamentable though some of us may find it. I'm reminded of the saying "history is written by the victors".--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 19:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    *B. A late comment on Zeus and God, mythology and religion:
    God = Zeus; according to some and at least but not necessarily when understood as a god. Even using expressions like God vs/XOR Zeus shows an inherent bias. Abrahamic religion from a non abrahamic perspective is or could be considered equal to mythology, at least if the reverse is considered acceptable to be said. So just like spinning philosophical/scientific concepts (A) to support religious paranormal untestable claims is absurd, it's also absurd to invoke religious persecution and bias against one's own religion when one is denying respect, plausibility etc to the religion of other people(which in this case was a propos practically eradicated through every means possible by the family of religions of the accuser of his or similar views being a victim of religious or atheistic persecution/bias against), claiming unique existence and credibility of one's own supposedly only true/real god and religion.
    P.S.Personal Note: In fact when things like interpretatio graeca are considered, i.e. when considering that the followers of Zeus (et al) didn't make such unique exclusive absolutist claims against the (various) followers of Jehovah (formerly in the company of Asherah et al), it's very very sad to some people that the Hellenes and the Hellenists lost (lost meant as at least to some degree), at the Maccabean period or later... ;-)

    Thanatos at [3], quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    List of scientists who disagree with science

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of the thimerosal controversy.

    This list is an embarrassment. Obviously a knock-off of List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming which also deserves deleting.

    jps (talk) 03:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreed that the article should be deleted. Good luck if you want to delete the list of scientists opposing global warming. I fought hammer and tongs to get long quotes removed, which I see now has happened. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    A trend has started: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of scientists known for opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of the cause of AIDS. jps (talk) 05:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand this trend with lists. If it is important enough that controversy about a particular subject is included, then it should be in prose, in the main article (or split off). — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 09:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect that it is simply that it is easier to compose a list than to write a proper article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming now at AFD, pure OR and a BLP vio to boot. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Surely the key question is whether it is a list of those "opposing science" or of those critical of the mainstream view. Science will often have the latter type of scientist, fortunately as that is how science advances. While the main Wikipedia articles should reflect the mainstream view, it is relevant and interesting to have such lists of critics on important topics. cwmacdougall 11:53, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a big difference between being critical and being in opposition to. For instance, on the talk page I provided a source from a BLP who in his own words said "For the most part I do not disagree with the consensus, but I am disturbed by the absence of quantitative considerations", however as this list is on fact, as was stated "about denial" it does not matter, as he has made statements which disagree with the OR "criteria inclusion" he gets bunged into a list. The entire this is OR and a BLP violation, you cannot make up an inclusion criteria, that is OR, and then decide which BLP gets bunged in there. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:14, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Help at Talk:List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming would be appreciated. I proposed that the inclusion criteria be made a bit stricter, but other ideas would be welcome too. jps (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Edits at Traditional Chinese medicine

    Numerous outdated non-notable sources are being dumped inside the reference section for no good reason. QuackGuru (talk) 06:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't know how we're going to be able to referee an expertise battle on this. OTOH listing these as "references" is obviously wrong given that they aren't used as such. Mangoe (talk) 15:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the references inside the reference section are the same as the references in the body of the article. But some of the references in the body are not formatted correctly. Now I am going to have to format the citations in the body of the article to verify the text. QuackGuru (talk) 19:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually, QuackGuru is trying to remove long-standing sources, in bulk, without consensus. A lot of these are actually cited in the article (e.g. as "Smith 1985, p.7"), so removing them is destructive. [4]. Some of them are of very high quality [5]. I'm sure the refs can be trimmed, but this is over the top.

    QuackGuru is approaching TCM topics the wrong way: making changes without consensus, asserting there is consensus (or otherwise IDHT-ing and misrepresenting the situation), and running here prematurely. I know QG is respected for his work in other fringe areas, but Chinese medicine is a mix of fringe and legit science (e.g. [6]) and he doesn't grok the nuance, and is a disruptive influence. It's too bad that some editors support him reflexively. --Middle 8 (talk) 05:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    The mass WP:EL violation and other disputed text has been restored. See Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Non-notable or duplicate sources moved to talk for the current discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Calm down; you'll probably like the current version [7]. None of this would have happened had both sides AGF'd more and been clearer about specifically what was going on. --Middle 8 (talk) 16:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    We need more outside editors to review the situation. QuackGuru (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Continued problems at Traditional Chinese medicine

    Another editor identified the OR/SYN with some of the text. For starters, the part about the "heart-clearing" is SYN. There is also a bigger problem. The new section about Drug discoveries is a WP:WEIGHT violation. I explained on the talk page, I moved only the sourced text that is not about efficacy to other articles.[8][9] I do not see a reason to have this section with all the low level details. The text about efficacy should stay but it should be merged back into the efficacy section IMO. QuackGuru (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    "Research to develop antimalarial drugs led to the discovery artemisinin, which is extracted from Artemisia annua,[111] a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category.[112]"

    "a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category.[112]" is a SYN violation. This was previously explained on the talk page. QuackGuru (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    "After reading the ancient Chinese medical description, “take one bunch of Qinghao, soak in two sheng (∼0.4 liters) of water, wring it out to obtain the juice and ingest it in its entirety” in The Handbook of Prescriptions for Emergency Treatments by Ge Hong (283–343 CE) during the Jin Dynasty, she realized that traditional methods of boiling and high-temperature extraction could damage the active ingredient. Indeed, a much better extract was obtained after switching from ethanol to ether extraction at lower temperature."[10]

    The current text at Traditional Chinese medicine#Drug discoveries is misleading. Scientists are moving away from traditional methods. The drug is not a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category. QuackGuru (talk) 01:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Update: After I neutrally written the text according to what the source said it got deleted. The main point from the source was whitewashed. QuackGuru (talk) 05:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    • The place to discuss this, and much else that you've been posting here, is the article talk page.
    • You're misreading the source. More at talk page, this section.
    • You're too caught up in the "TCM ROX!"/"TCM SUX!" divide. --Middle 8 (talk) 10:45, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Edits against WP:LOCALCON at German acupuncture trials

    According to this comment, it seems the article has been hijacked by a bunch of acupuncture fans.

    Editors do not have consensus to keep the coat rack material. See the comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/German Acupuncture Trials AFD. Editors noted there are problems with the article, including the problems with the WP:COATHOOK text. Therefore there is WP:LOCALCON to cleanup the article. An editor did acknowledge at the German acupuncture trials talk page that We found consensus to limit the information about the results. But the same editor restored the outdated information about the results of the trials along with the low level details that do not benefit the reader. There was consensus to limit the information about the results, but the same editor continued to restore the disputed unimportant details that are also not WP:MEDRS compliant. Recommending revert to this version. Make sure you bring food and treats because it is a 4 hour journey to the article. QuackGuru (talk) 06:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I WP:BOLDly reverted the page to the 20:18, 12 December 2013 version (last stable version before before the recent machine-gun editing). This rolls back both of your recent edits. The two of you need to reach a consensus on the talk page or at WP:DR instead of this constant churning back-and-forth editing of the article. If anyone has a problem with this, I can put in a request for page protection to force everyone to stop editing the article until an agreement is reached. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You added a primary source to the lead and original research to the lead. You also added low level details about the trial itself to the lead using an outdated reference. See WP:PRIMARY. The details about the trial itself is a violation of WP:COATHOOK. For medical claims about acupuncture, readers can go to the acupuncture article. What is the specific objection for this version based on policy? QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The FJC is both secondary and a MEDRS, just as the NIH or FDA (which play a similar role) are. Just saying; we can do this at the talk page. --Middle 8 (talk) 00:51, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I added nothing. What I did was remove all the changes that you and Mallexikon made since 20:18, 12 December 2013. Yes, we all understand that you don't like that version. That's why you made 24 edits in the next 7 days. We also all understand that Mallexikon made 18 edits in the same period, that a large percentage of your edits were undoing Mallexikon's edits, and that a large percentage of Mallexikon's edits were undoing your edits. Please don't bother arguing the merits of your preferred version. I don't care who is right. All I care about is that fact that neither of you are gong about this the right way. WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR tell you what you need to do instead of what you are doing now. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    But you did add something to the lead against policy and you obviously "don't care who is right". This version is closer to WP:NPOV IMO. QuackGuru (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    What part of
    Please don't bother arguing the merits of your preferred version.
    and
    All I care about is that fact that neither of you are gong about this the right way. WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR tell you what you need to do instead of what you are doing now.
    are you having trouble understanding?
    You can follow Wikipedia policies voluntarily, or we can force you to follow Wikipedia policies through page protection or through blocks, but you will follow Wikipedia policies (WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR). Are we going to do this the easy way or the hard way? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    In case anyone thinks that I am being too harsh:[11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31] --Guy Macon (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    "Do you feel lucky?" --Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy, QG is right. The article has been hijacked by acupuncturists who refuse to declare their conflict of interest in promoting their peculiar version of quackery. It's an embarrassment. That you are criticizing him is also something of an embarrassment considering he is one of the only people actually working to keep the article somewhat neutral. jps (talk) 22:01, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    (Edit Conflict) So it's OK to not follow WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR if you are right? The end justifies the means? Are you sure you want to defend that position? Remember, the acupuncturists also believe they are right and will take full advantage of your implied "I am right so the rules don't apply to me" policy. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you kidding me? Have you tried to follow DR? The procedures simply don't work. As for WP:CONSENSUS, there is no evidence that QG isn't following that. He brings it up explicitly. The answer here is to support the best scholarship and actually look at content. The perception of good/bad behavior should not dictate content. jps (talk) 22:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    What's sad, jps, is this (my comment at bottom, with the bolded remark about sham vs. verum). Follow your own advice and you'll see this isn't what you think it is. --Middle 8 (talk) 00:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You're saying WP:DR doesn't work, and at the same time, focusing on the editor and not what the editor writes. What can I say? WP:DR can work, somewhat, but you have to try. AGF some. I agree WP:DR is flawed because the whole idea of consensus among non-experts is flawed. But your approach isn't helping matters. At least not in topic areas where there's nuance; I guess maybe shooting from the hip with a shotgun is reasonable enough with perpetual motion interdimensional ESP machine conspiracies... --Middle 8 (talk) 01:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the way I think we should proceed. Take any issues about editor behaviour elsewhere. Let's concentrate on what should and shouldn't be in the article. Anything that sounds remotely like a claim about the efficacy of acupuncture must meet WP:MEDRS or be compatible with what's said in sources compliant with MEDRS. However, the article isn't about the efficacy of acupuncture but about its topic: a series of experiments. Good sources for an article about a process of scientific research are normal science news outlets. They don't have to be peer-reviewed. Sources of the type of New Scientist, Times Higher Education Supplement, Nature (news sections), BBC. That's assuming that the topic is notable. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    There is an additional problem with the rather contentious AfD that made things worse. Since Mark said that merging may be appropriate, perhaps we should merge? jps (talk) 22:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree 100%. Just because I am not a big fan of trying to make the article comply with WP:MEDRS by throwing bombs and setting things on fire, that doesn't imply that I don't think that the article needs to comply with WP:MEDRS. Following WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR is the most effective way insure that the article complies with WP:MEDRS. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Show me an example where this actually worked when there were four different SPAs working to skew an article away from MEDRS. jps (talk) 22:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Translation: "I am right and I know that WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR don't work, so clearly they don't apply to me and it is OK to edit war." Because edit warring works so well. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    No, edit warring doesn't work at all. The point is that DR doesn't work either. The only thing left is to ask for help from people who understand. That's what QG is doing here, I'd say. DR is empirically a waste of time. I'd be happy to be proven wrong about this, but I've simply never seen it work in any situation. jps (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You haven't been looking very hard.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_83#Macedonians_.28ethnic_group.29
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_82#Wallis_Simpson
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_81#United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_80#Directed_energy_weapons.2C_and_the_Talk_page
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_80#Harvey_Milk_and_related_articles
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_80#Republic_of_Kosovo
    ...and those are just the ones from the last 3 months at one DR venue.
    As In promised, I requested and was granted page protection for a week because you and others -- on both sides of the content dispute -- think that WP:TALKDONTREVERT doesn't apply to you. If the behavior continues after the protection expires I will request a series of escalating blocks for all editors who are unwilling to follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I mean, you might pat yourself on the back for those dispute resolutions, but the fact of the matter is that what ultimately happened in each of those cases was either a punt, a discussion that could have happened anywhere, or a closing resolution that simply took sides in an edit war. So I don't see that you've actually shown that dispute resolutions work any better than, say, getting someone to help from this noticeboard. What does it matter if QG makes his request here or there? Why shouldn't I take his side (or anyone else's)? jps (talk) 03:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Nice demonstration of the No true Scotsman fallacy. Yes, it is true that DR doesn't work if you don't count the times that it does. As I mentioned, DRN is just one venue; WP:DR lists several. Perhaps you can explain to me why these examples don't count:
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem
    Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement
    Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence
    Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity
    And I haven't even mentioned the hundreds of RfCs that have successfully resolved disputes.
    You know, even if you are convinced that DR never works, by encouraging QuackGuru to misbehave by telling him that it is OK to break the rules, you are setting him up to be blocked.
    As for your question "Why shouldn't I take his side?", the problem is not you taking his side. As for the actual content dispute, QuackGuru is on the right side; we really should have an article based upon sound science, not a coatrack for pushing fringe science. If QuackGuru had shown any willingness at all to follow Wikipedia's community behavioral standards, I would have been the first to attempt to assist him. Alas, he has not shown any willingness at all to follow Wikipedia's community behavioral standards, and it appears that you think that's OK as long as he is right. The end does not justify the means. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    So you are now referencing a number of arbitrations in which I was involved. They were all wastes of time in the sense that they do not result in meaningful progress in sorting out the disputes. What results in meaningful progress is one of two things: 1) when certain users are excluded from editing, and 2) when enough other users come to help. You seem to be under the impression that "misbehavior" is somehow the major issue. I'm not at all convinced that 1) you've actually identified consistently bad misbehavior on the part of QG in this dispute and 2) you've actually demonstrated that there is something to your approach of attacking those whom you think are misbehaving. You actually went ahead and reverted my editorial choice on that page on the basis of your dislike of QG's behavior. That is, not only do you think the ends don't justify the means, you think that we should WP:PUNISH those who you think are not upholding some arbitrary standard. I have no problem if you want to continue with normal dispute resolution processes, but I have seen the really problematic sides of these processes and they are disgusting. To argue that people spend their time trying to convince arbitrary carrot and stick holders to take their sides in a dispute (which is ultimately what all of DR comes down to) when there is such an incompetent admin corps, when we have a system that does not distinguish between good and bad content, when we have a general culture that not only doesn't defer to expertise but actively despises it, you better believe I'm not a fan of DR and will not be. The way Wikipedia functions best is through when good editors help each other. I speak from experience here, and I do not think your threats about getting people blocked are at all helpful. It's just more wikipolitics as dysfunctionally usual. jps (talk) 14:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I reverted your editorial choice because your editorial choice was to engage in tag-team edit warring, and tag-team edit warring violates Wikipedia's behavioral guidelines. It had nothing to do with anyone's behavior but yours. Clearly I am not going to convince you to change your behavior; Comparing this, and this pretty much says it all. I am invoking WP:IAD and withdrawing from this conversation. Feel free to have the last word; I don't plan on reading any response you might post. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Geez, Guy, don't be a dick, or sumthing.... You think that just because you've never been blocked that makes you a better Wikipedian? I guess every block, every ban, every enforcement of Wikipedia's arbitrary power structure is right and good and holy. You are indicative of what makes this place so problematic. It really should be about the content: not the behavior, not the community, and not the arbitrary bureaucracy made up by pseudonymous random internet users. As long as people like you feel justified in treating people like QG and myself poorly, I'm not confident that things can get better. You say, "Please don't bother arguing the merits of your preferred version." That's exactly the opposite of the attitude I like to see people in charge of an encyclopedia take. jps (talk) 18:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Read this comment. Another editor is falsely claiming I am in favor of restoring the coathook information. This kind of deception must stop. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, please read it, because it's a question to QG, who is falsely portraying it as a lie. Read my reply at the talk page; I'm not advocating what some here assume. --Middle 8 (talk) 00:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You already know I am not in favor of restoring that text. The diffs you provided showed me deleting the text I did not support. What lead you to believe I am in favor of restoring it when I deleted it. QuackGuru (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    What I did was ask you a question: "so you're in favor of restoring X and Y?" Did you just not see the question mark? If you didn't understand why I'd ask such a question, again: Read my reply at the talk page, or ask there for clarification. Don't ABF and show your displeasure by accusing me of misconduct on FTN. --Middle 8 (talk) 07:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    If you really want to do the AGF thing, please strike your accusation that I lied. I've acknowledged that perhaps you simply overlooked my question mark and misread the question as a statement. --Middle 8 (talk)
    You initially wrote: So you're saying you're in favor of restoring/including this and [32]?
    Most editors know I am not in favor of restoring the coathook text. I thought I made it clear I'm not in favor of restoring the text I deleted.
    On another talk page you wrote something that I do not understand. Maybe you can explain a bit more about it at the talk page for me to understand. QuackGuru (talk) 17:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for striking your comment. On your question, that's better discussed at said talk page, but what you say above happens to be an excellent example: it's very frustrating when you repeat yourself (i.e. "editors know I am not in favor of restoring...") so often. It's as if you didn't hear me when I said -- and will say now FOR THE THIRD TIME -- Read my reply at Talk:GERAC. Don't you get how this is frustrating and disruptive? It's classic and over-the-top WP:IDHT. It's also IDHT when you assert there's consensus when there plainly isn't. Please take my and others' comments (e.g. at the very end here, and Guy Macon's below) to heart. --Middle 8 (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Reiterate that there is WP:CON

    I am not opposed to limiting the information about the individual trials. The same editor who admitted there is consensus to limit the results of the trials also admitted there is consensus to delete the technical details about the set-up of the trials. This is the same editor who continues to restore the information against consensus. I am in favor of the current version without the coathook information. QuackGuru (talk) 19:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    If you and Mallexikon are both OK with the version suggested by Blue Rasberry, I suggest that you both step back and allow Blue Rasberry to edit the article. See Wikipedia:Edit requests#Making requests for the proper procedure. Given the recent history of edit warring leading to the page being protected, it would be a good idea to ask all of the major participants to endorse the edit request. That makes it easy for the admin to evaluate. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Bluerasberry wanted a summary rather than keeping the technical details of the set-up. I did make a change to the article. See: The trials were conducted using sham acupuncture.[13] Other editors have not commented on my specific change, however. QuackGuru (talk) 20:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I would consider reverting your change and shouting at you in the edit summary[33] to be making a rather strong comment. Clearly that editor did not agree that there was a consensus for your change, and the very first thing you wrote when you opened up this noticeboard report ("it seems the article has been hijacked by a bunch of acupuncture fans") tells me that you don't believe that there is a consensus among the editors of the page supporting your preferred version either. Nor is it valid to point to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/German Acupuncture Trials and claim that AfD demonstrates a community consensus on a wider scale as described at WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. First, the result was "No Consensus", and second, the question asked was whether the article should be deleted, not whether there is a consensus for your preferred version. You need to do more than saying "there is WP:CON" or "editing against WP:LOCALCON" over and over. You have to supply some sort of evidence that the claim is true. I suspect that your claim is true, but I have seen no actual proof of consensus, and if I were an acupuncture advocate (which I am not; you can look at my history of participation on this board and see that I have consistently supported mainstream science and mainstream medical opinion, not fringe science or alternative medicine) I would want proof.
    WP:CON and WP:DR lay out the steps you have to take to show that there is a consensus for your preferred version. First, you try on the article talk page (NOT through repeated reverts) to find a version everyone can live with. This does not involve you claiming that they agree; they have to say it. If you cannot reach agreement and you believe that the larger community will support your preferred version (not unlikely, BTW; acupuncture articles attract acupuncture fans and acupuncture opponents, whereas the larger community is likely to have a more neutral POV), then post an RfC. Once you get those magic words where an uninvolved closing admin rules on what the consensus is, everybody need to accept it or be blocked for refusing to follow consensus. Wikipedia's DR system really does work if you give it a chance. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Editors at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/German Acupuncture Trials noticed there were serious problems with the article, including the coatrack text. Those comments at the AFD should not be ignored. User:Jmh649 and other editors were against the coatrack text. QuackGuru (talk) 02:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    There is no local consensus. Just a handful of editors -- me, Mallexikon, QuackGuru, Alexbrn (off and on), Bluerasberry and MrBill3 (off and on) -- trying to work it out. What's really ironic, and sad, is that a lot of editors are misreading this article and focusing on who's commenting at the expense of what's being said. I'm advocating that we educate readers that this was the first well-designed experiment showing that sham acu to be the same as verum, so I'd like some experimental details to be included, so science-literate readers can satisfy themselves that it was well-designed. See my comments [34] [35] [36]. This isn't an alt-med coatrack; it's an interesting experiment documenting the evolution of scientific opinion about acupuncture, and not in the direction acupuncture proponents would like. There's no need for this discussion to have forked here, although we could use more eyes, attentive ones preferably. --Middle 8 (talk) 00:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Sorry, I took a short break over the holidays... I'm a little surprised to find the whole thing boiling over just now... I thought we were making some headway with the help of Blue Rasberry ...? Probably it just needs some patience on the side of everybody involved. Thanks, Guy Macon for steadfastly defending WP:DR. Cheers, --Mallexikon (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    What headway are you talking about? You disagreed with User:Bluerasberry but said there is a consensus forming to not include this material. You also said that "We found consensus to limit the information about the results..." QuackGuru (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    With all due respect, you have proven yourself to be spectacularly bad at determining what the consensus is and is not. Again, I suggest an RfC so that there is no doubt. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Slavic Vedism

    This article is a mess and is up for AfD. Of particular concern is to us the section about Hindu idols supposedly found in Russia. Mangoe (talk) 18:40, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm getting pushback about removing the fringe material from this. I'm on the edge about deletion; I'm inclined toward it slightly because it's not that clear that there are outside sources about the modern movements, and it's too difficult to pick through the Russian sources to work out which ones represent genuine media reporting. There are a bunch of Indian media reports cited which are obviously crap. But the "see, there were Hindus in ancient Russia too" and "see, all religions are the same" stuff is, in my evaluation, junk. If I could get a couple of other people to check this out I would be very grateful. Mangoe (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Sleep-learning

    I added the category "pseudoscience" to Sleep-learning, we have the article Sleep and learning for any scientific information on any correlated activity between the two brain functions. Does anyone disagree? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    A merge wouldn't be out of place. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The science one is about getting enough sleep to cement what you learned the previous day and having enough sleep to be alert to learn the following day. The pseudoscience is about learning new facts while you are asleep. If we keep them apart the "pseudo" tag will be correct. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't call that pseudoscience. I would call it dubious science, but there are people working on it who are using the scientific method in a correct way. It isn't as if learning during sleep would be a miracle or anything -- there is plenty of organized brain activity during sleep. Looie496 (talk) 20:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see a merger working, so that the article on Sleep and learning carries the following: the research showing that sleep is useful for alertness, thus for learning the following day; some research into how memories may be sifted and sorted during sleep (if we have good sources - I hope we do because it's interesting); how there was a notion from the 1920s that sleep was like hypnosis and people would pick up suggestions played to them; how that notion was completely discredited; how the sleep-learning notion was transmitted into literature. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Not a fan of the merger idea. The Sleep and learning article covers the scientific information and Sleep-learning covers a pseudoscienctific belief. - - MrBill3 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Sati

    Edit-warring on this page, and what looks to me very like an attempt to push a Hindutva pseudohistorical view, diametrically misrepresenting an academic source. Sockpuppetry allegations being made. More eyes would be very welcome. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    @Itsmejudith: Judith, that is a dab page, are you sure you got that right? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry. Sati (practice). Itsmejudith (talk) 11:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really a isolated propaganda like you are treating, you can search around yourself, there's no denial. :::http://books.google.com/books?id=JlgAkHqGyMoC&pg=PA9&dq=sati+islamic+invasion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FwXEUp7bNoG5iQeUhoHoDA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sati%20islamic%20invasion%20rape&f=false
    http://books.google.com/books?id=9mvzKWt50JsC&pg=PA358&dq=
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Mr_eYjoVjz8C&pg=PA253&dq=sati#v=onepage&q=sati&f=false
    Page 54 of http://books.google.com/books?id=IzrkAAAAMAAJ
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ubBPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&dq=sati
    There's no source which has denied this information to be either "False" or "pseudohistorical". OccultZone (talk) 12:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Fringe theories or Legit/reliable information

    Dispute moved to WP:RSN after multiple editors' suggestion. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Main topic: Pantheism and Shintoism, Dispute:- Talk:Pantheism#Shinto Considering that there are many sources, regarding the known connection of Pantheism and Shinto. I want to know, if any of these sources are reliable, or legible.

    • Shelton, Barrie. Learning from the Japanese City: Looking East in Urban Design. p. 112.- "very much on the plural for it is a polytheistic and pantheistic belief".."Shinto refers to an assortment of beliefs and practices that are pantheistic in nature"..
    • The Ethnic Dimension in American History. p. 168. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)-"Shintoism combined a pantheistic worship of nature with deification of the emperor, who was the living kami",
    • Stuart Picken. Sourcebook in Shinto: Selected Documents. p. 302.-"It stands to reason that pantheism should have a more powerful attraction for the Shinto of the future than monotheism",
    • Genchi Katu. A Study of Shinto: The Religion of the Japanese Nation. p. 64.-"As we have just seen, although the animistic polytheism of original Shintō evolves into naturalistic pantheism..",
    • Spirit of the Environment: Religion, Value and Environmental Concern. p. 52. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)-"I conclude that the religion we need to embrace now is pantheism, as exemplified in Shinto,...",
    • Paul Carden. Christianity, Cults and Religions. p. 52. {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help)-"All of nature is animated by the kami—including things such as rocks, trees, or streams—making Shinto a combination of polytheism and pantheism..."

    Bladesmulti (talk) 13:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not sure why you are asking here or at WP:RSN but you haven't given enough information. Eg, publisher. Taking just the last one, Paul Garden is general editor of his publisher, Rose Publishing[37] so it's effectively self-published, making the issue who is Carden (see also [38] and why should we use him as an expert. The answer I think you would get at RSN is no. Dougweller (talk) 14:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:RSN is solely based on confirming whether the source is reliable or not.. But here, the sources are not really unreliable, at least few of them, its just about whether the information is correct or incorrect from these sources. The pointed facts are quoted as well. Out of 6 sources, how many seems to be correct, according to you. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    No, RSN editors will comment on whether a source is reliable for a particular statement. Do you want me to copy your post there? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:56, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Urantia Book

    Edit warrior adding OR at Urantia Book (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Not the first time either. I gave him a 3RR warning after he hit 4 (missed the 3rd revert). Dougweller (talk) 21:39, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Specific Carbohydrate Diet

    A restrictive diet promoted as useful for a number of conditions including autism and Crohn's Disease. The article has seen a bit of activity lately with questions of balance and neutrality being aired. May need more eyes ... Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC) (Update) I modify my final statement. The article does need more eyes. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 19:23, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't see evidence of notability. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    There are plenty of references in scholarly literature, mostly saying "it hasn't been checked out" or "we don't think it works." Mangoe (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Foo fighters

    "The device, operated by special SS units, supposedly resembled a tortoise shell in shape, and flew by means of gas jets that spun like a Catherine wheel around the fuselage". Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 20:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    It's amusing, but if somebody actually managed to get that published, I don't mind it being in the article - as long as it's framed appropriately as Vesco's idea (OK so far) and given due weight (maybe needs trimming).
    More generally, I think the article needs rebalancing, but it does already have some coverage of the skeptical position. bobrayner (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, Vesco's "theory" gets a bit too much space ... Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 21:07, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Dubious text of the month

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gospel According to Seneca needs attention. I'm not finding evidence for this supposed heterodox scripture. Mangoe (talk) 15:09, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Klee Irwin: medical quackmeister or mild-mannered businessman?

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Klee Irwin (3rd nomination) is up after a complete strip-out of negative material. In fact as you can see he has been hit with cease-and-desists from the FDA and local district attorney, as well as some SEC action. Scam watch blog posts on his enterprises abound. Personally I would like to save the article, but it actually has to tell the truth about him, which may be hard to source. Mangoe (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Mary S. Sherman

    An editor is insisting that one third of the article text be devoted to fringe conspiracy theories that one of his own sources says there is "no solid evidence" supporting them. Attempts to truncate this section per WP:UNDUE and add a further reliable source disputing these theories are being reverted. Gamaliel (talk) 00:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    The conspiracy stuff, if notable, needs to go in its own section rather than be sprinkled throughout the article, e.g. Jim Garrison's comments in a Playboy interview are not a reliable source of fact regarding Sherman's death. LuckyLouie (talk) 01:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Aquatic ape hypothesis

    AAH is well-established fringe but persistent advocates are setting the standards on the talk page referring to "talk page consensus" (as far as I can tell) within the tiny group that are advocating it (everyone else gave up). The most arrogant and persistent advocate was reported on ANI without success. I've reported AAH before and last time that page got chopped to pieces. --Fama Clamosa (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is irrelevant. Fama Clamosa (talk · contribs) - have you warned the participants about discreitonary sanctions in WP:ARB/PS? If not, please do so. SPAs should be easily banned. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I didn't warn anyone and I guess this means that I gave up AAH. I'll remove the page from my watchlist (like everyone else did). --Fama Clamosa (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 20:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab

    Thoughts on this please, ladies + gents.

    No independent references as fas as I can tell. only papers are in notorious pseudojournal/unreliable source Journal of Consciousness Studies. AFD? Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    The article is pure puffery. A former PEAR staff member named Brenda Dunne subjected the article to an intense POV push, but even if the article is reverted to its previous state it still contains little to nothing of encyclopedic value. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 23:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that the article is still predominantly puffery, despite the edits that I and others did some time back, which were admittedly rather tame. PEAR is, however, a curious artifact in the history of science and probably deserves to be retained in WP in some form. Perhaps the best approach would be to eliminate all the self-promotion and unreliable material, then see what's left. If it's inadequate as a standalone entry, we can merge what remains into the Robert Jahn page, and redirect PEAR there.
    Much of the lab's early experimental work is described in a 1982 IEEE-invited paper by Robert Jahn. Here's the info: Jahn, R.J., "The Persistent Paradox of Psychic Phenomena: An Engineering Perspective", Proc. of the IEEE, vol. 70, no. 2, pp. 136-170, February 1982. This paper provides some broader insights into the overall field, but it has not yet been included in either the PEAR or Jahn pages.
    (BTW, most of the existing references for the PEAR entry are not from the above-mentioned Journal of Consciousness Studies, which is a fairly respected academic forum. They're from the Journal of Scientific Exploration, which is indeed quite unreliable and unindexed; probably all but one of them should be eliminated.) Cheers! jxm (talk) 18:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    ‪Noah and Abraham‬

    According to our Wikipedia infobox, Noah lived to be 950. And I'm not sure what the parenthetical "Biblical dating" means. I have tried to clean this up, but have been reverted a couple of times by someone who feels that the info is properly sourced (to the Bible). LuckyLouie (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Found the same issue at Abraham. jps (talk) 16:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Shouldn't be in infoboxes, should say in the text that the Bible says so. Itsmejudith (talk) 02:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    voice to skull

    This new article, which unfortunately was approved at AfC, contains about 10% valid information and 90% fringe theory, by my estimate. I'm reluctant to take it on single-handed. Looie496 (talk) 00:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Yup - I've removed the most glaringly-obvious hogwash, though I suspect that AfD is probably the best solution. The whole thing looks like synthesis to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    It also seems to me that whoever approved this at AfC should be asked to explain how this got passed. I'll look into this further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:54, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like a POV FORK of psychotronics recycling much of the same material but with an emphasis on tinfoil hattery. Someone please send it to AfD. LuckyLouie (talk) 02:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Nominated: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voice to skull. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 02:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Gentech Pharmaceutical

    Not sure whether this belongs here or not. Gentech Pharmaceutical appears to my research to be a company that markets pharmaceuticals that have never been described in peer-reviewed publications, which would place their product as a fringe medicine. Whether or not what they're selling is snake oil, I couldn't tell you, but as they've never published any research that suggests otherwise, I think we need to assume that it is. Their home page is of course replete with unsubstantiated claims about their products (the main one is apparently "widely regarded as the most advanced and effective Synthetic Amphetamine", although they don't ever tell you by whom, or indeed define what "synthetic amphetamine" actually means). 87.112.96.96 (talk) 18:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&oldid=590253173"