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Featured article removal candidates view edit
Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition	Review now
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Image/source check requests

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Interstate 496/archive1. Source review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sega v. Accolade/archive1. Image/source reviews plus source spotcheck pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Koala/archive1. Source review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will do tomorrow if British Library has vols onsite, or on Saturday if they have to order them. Tim riley (talk) 13:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tim, however here I wasn't so much concerned with a source spotcheck for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing (since the co-noms have been around FAC a while and had such spotchecks in the not-too-distant past) as a source review for formatting and general reliability (the sort of checks Brian and Nikki often make, like this). Of course I have no prob with source spotchecks being carried out on as many articles as feasible, but I was more interested at the moment, if possible, in one for a first-time FAC nominator, i.e. Sega v. Accolade (above). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Perseus (constellation)/archive1. Source review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Benjamin Britten/archive1‎. Image review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Who is in charge of the clattering train?" (ack. E. J. Milliken)

Can someone advise me of who is in charge of featured articles these days? The system is working well on a day-to-day basis; Ian and Graham are doing sterling service on the FAC, as is Bencherlite at TFA and, I am sure, other delegates at FAR. But they all have specified responsibilities, and cannot be expected to take on work beyond the range of their duties. However, the nominal FA director has shown no involvement or interest in the project for the past five months. I have a specific suggestion, not within the delegates' remit, which could require executive action, the sort of thing that a couple of years ago I would routinely have taken up with Raul. I see no point now in posting my query on his talk; he is not responding to any postings, not even to the gift of a pie. So what would be my most productive course of action? Brianboulton (talk) 19:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would be interested in your suggestion. Perhaps here might be a good place to start? Graham Colm (talk) 20:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Graham. I think this is the place to float suggestions, and personally I don't see why consensus can't be reached here - before the train runs away, so to speak. Victoria (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, my general suggestion is that there should be a concerted drive to extend the current free JSTOR access available at present to selected editors. Further, as a general policy aim, we should seek to acquire access through other paywalls, such as Cambridge Journals and Oxford Journals and should begin investigating this as soon as possible. The latter suggestion may not be tenable at present, but we should have an aim and a strategy. With regard to JSTOR, I have a few specific concerns:

The pilot scheme whereby 100 editors were given free access to the JSTOR archive expires in November 2013. Are any steps in hand to extend this? If not, it's important that there should be some speedy action in this respect. November is only four months away.
Has any monitoring taken place to determine the extent to which this facility has been used by the editors with free access? Do we have any "sleepers" sitting on wasted accounts?
Do we know whether any of the editors who signed up here below the 100-place mark have been given access?

Raul654 is nominally the WP community's JSTOR contact. Whatever the future of the Featured Article Director title, someone needs to replace him in this specific role, with authority to speak on behalf of the community in any negotiations that may be necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it seems that I am alone in worrying that the complimentary JSTOR access might be withdrawn in November and that there is no obvious leadership in position to renegotiate this arrangement. I'm not interested in another marathon argument about who or what should succeed Raul as FA director, but rather in who is going to take responsibility for this specific task. Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Brian, didn't notice your earlier comment. Yes, I am worried because I'm a slow editor, real life gets in the way at times, and I recently thought I should either go on a mass downloading spree or something, because I'll be unhappy when we lose access to JSTOR. I think that a year isn't long enough to gauge how effective it's been - bringing an article to FA takes a fair bit of time (at least for me), so I can only point to a few from this year, but all have relied on Jstor. Victoria (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I thought Stephen Walling at the WMF had actually dealt with JSTOR. He's currently no doubt stressed-out dealing with the introduction of the Visual Editor, but might be the best person to ask. Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Brian, as John says, it was Steven Walling at the WMF who was dealing with JSTOR. My understanding at the time this was set up is that the first 100 would have access for one year, then the next 100 would. It would be great if that could be renegotiated so that lots of us, not only 100, will have continued access, but given how long the first negotiations took, trying to extend the subscriptions could be lengthy too. I'd therefore suggest that you contact Steven asap with your concerns, although he's likely to be tied up with the Visual Editor at the moment. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping. Today is a holiday in the U.S. but I can answer all of Brian's questions tonight or tomorrow. (I am still in touch with our contact at JSTOR from time to time.) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 19:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Following up: this thread is slightly noisy so I answered all the questions about JSTOR so far in this thread on my user talk. Thanks, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 20:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the federal judiciary in the US, so that may have influenced my opinions here. I see the role of the FA Director in two lights:

He or she assures the smooth functioning of the overall FA process by keeping the subprocesses (FAC, FAR, TFA) staffed with the appropriate decision makers.
Rarely, he or she adjudicates any controversies that rise above the level of decision making by the delegates at those subprocesses. This could involve closing FACs/FARs where the active delegates have to recuse, etc.

To keep those roles impartial, I've felt that the FA Director needed some level of independence as well as a level of accountability to the community. Serving in the role "during good behavior" and as long as the person was "willing and able" gave that independence. That the delegates' appointments were insulated from a direct popular vote also gave them the independence needed to truly decide whether or not an article merited promotion or demotion without the potential political fallout at election time. That isn't to say that the community couldn't replace the director, when circumstances warranted, or petition to have a delegate removed as needed.

At this time, I think circumstances warrant some action. I propose that the greater FA community proceed to elect a new FA Director. Interested candidates for the job should have a reasonable period to come forward with a nomination statement, and then the community should have a reasonable period to vote. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imzadi1979 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What about naming Graham and Ian co-directors? They seem to have been doing all the work for a while. Any thoughts about setting up an RFC to do that? Looie496 (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing against that, but remember that the FA director also oversees FAR and TFA, so I don't know that this would be the best solution organizationally. --Rs chen 7754 23:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have to ask this one simple question. Why is Raul654 still listed as the FA Director when he has not shown up in 5 months? He should be removed immediately, whether or not a suitable replacement is currently available. Not to do so makes the whole concept of even having a FA Director look like a complete farce. For the time being, the current delegates can continue to go on doing what they are doing and be called delegates. Whether there is one person called a "director" at the moment is insignificant. Raul654 should be removed immediately without any further delay. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Sorry Brian for not responding earlier. A few of the other delegates and I have communicated on the JSTOR subject and I don't think we can add much to what's already been written above. I think JSTOR and the FA Director position were always separate issues, i.e. two different hats that Raul's worn, but since the question of Raul's absence as FA Director has been brought up again, let me offer a few thoughts on that at least -- my colleagues can jump in any time...

I'm in no hurry either to put someone new into the FA Director's role, or to eliminate it. Given Raul's great service to Featured Content over the years, I'd like to see him retain the title even if only in an honorary sense. The delegates were always supposed to take on all the responsibilities of the FAC Director bar appointing further delegates, and making the final decision if there was any issue about whether an article might or might not appear as TFA. Bencherlite has demonstrated that in Raul's absence he’s prepared to take – in consultation with the community -- the final decision re. controversial TFAs, so I consider that a non-issue now. I think there are also enough Featured Content delegates in total for them to consult and allocate responsibilities between themselves if there's risks to a job being performed. For instance Bencherlite is effectively running TFA single-handledly at the moment, but I understand now that Nikkimaria is prepared to make herself available to provide backup at TFA in addition to her FAR duties, which should mitigate that risk. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse Ian's approach and his analysis of the limited role of the FA Director as it had become over time (i.e. to appoint the delegates to do the day-to-day work and to be the person with the final say on TFAs). I agree that the community is able to discuss the issue of controversial TFAs in a way that enables me (as the only active TFA person at present) to close such decisions based on consensus e.g. Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/History of Gibraltar. I also agree that there are sufficient delegates available to deal with matters if there are problems at another branch of FA-land. I also agree that there is no bar as I see it to Raul retaining his title as FA Director as an honorary or emeritus position to recognise the work that he did here over many years, with no need to cast around for a successor. I welcome Nikkimaria's offer to assist at TFA, and would also note in this context that Dabomb87 has been in touch to say that he no longer feels able to be a TFA delegate given his current absence from Wikipedia. Bencherlite ^Talk 12:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to defer to the current delegates. I agree that a change of Raul's title to "FA Director Emeritus" would be acceptable, and would help to avoid any false impressions. - Dank (push to talk) 13:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Giving him an honorary title of "Director Emeritus" is fine, but any actual power he has should be removed in case he decides to show up a year or 2 from now and tries to retake control. The current delegates can still be called "delegates" as they are now delegates of the community rather than delegates of the FA director. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My only concern is if new delegates need to be appointed at some point - what will happen then? --Rs chen 7754 07:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the past, new delegates have been appointed by Raul after consultation with current and previous delegates. As I've said above, I think the current pool of delegates should be able to cope with the tasks that need doing, one way or another, for the time being. Should a new delegate be required (as opposed to juggling responsibilities between existing delegates) then I'd hope that, in Raul's absence, the delegate pool could be entrusted to consult and appoint one. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's fair to say that the situation concerning Raul is unusual (and I wish him the best in the case that he's involuntarily inactive on Wikipedia). However, the current arrangements are clearly working well so there seems no need to appoint a new boss of the featured streams of work at present. Nick-D (talk) 08:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, sounds good. --Rs chen 7754 08:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

←There's lots of issues here, which seem to be working themselves out above, but I've just gone ahead and edited {{FAC-instructions}} and removed Raul from the header altogether. He clearly has no role anymore there, so there's no need to enshrine it (at least not in the instructions--a history of FA would be an interesting wiki-history if there was ever one, but that's neither here nor there.) In his absence the delegates have done an admirable job, so I think the matter of adding or replacing is best done between them and then presenting candidates to the FAC community as needed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 12:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The person who has no role here is you. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- @ Hawkeye7, That comment is completely uncalled for. PumpkinSky talk 20:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support Ian's proposal and later comments. Graham Colm (talk) 12:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David Fuchs, I reverted your change. [1] The discussion is young, and the delegates are competent to install changes once consensus is defined. I will weigh in here eventually, agree with the delegate statements generally, and presume that those making intemperate and ungrateful statements about Raul/Mark are unaware of the full history of a) the FA process that he built, and b) the events leading to his absence. For now, I support the title of "Director Emeritus" for Raul654, and believe the processes to be in competent hands with the current delegates. As time allows (hopefully), I will lay out some things that the community could be doing to better help the delegates complete tasks that were done under Raul's leadership. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I re-added the change, as there's no reason to keep Raul in the instructions when he isn't around to respond to inquiries, and we don't need to wait for the delegate to make every change here (that's nothing against them personally—I like all of them). Should he return, I'd be happy to add him back myself. As for the circumstances surrounding Raul's disappearance, you are correct in saying that many of us don't know.... but we can't take into consideration what we don't know, so we have to go on what we do know, which is that he hasn't edited since February. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 17:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am also in agreement with Ian's comments. I've also been inactive recently, especially on FAC, but I hope to get a little more active again now. Ucucha (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would also support the director emeritus position for Raul. Since things are running well at present perhaps we should leave things as they are but have the delegates feel more free to propose changes in the processes to the community. And also to help out as needed in each others bailiwicks. I do not think there is any need to fill the position of director. When Raul took the position of director nine years ago the process was much smaller than it is now. Raul handled policy, appointments and the occasional recusal; those things can be done by the community and by other delegates.Wehwalt (talk) 14:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My main concern is that we never reach a situation where delegates are beholden to nominators. We don't want a popularity contest, or the flip side of the coin: delegate behaviour based on fear of voter backlash. That is what has worked so well for years in the undemocratic semi-monarchical arrangement. Tony (talk) 14:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly what we don't want, FA is not special as so many think. By that logic arbs should be arbs for life. PumpkinSky talk 14:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Raul always considered FA land his personal fiefdom and himself Director for Life. These ideas are anathema to the very idea of wiki. FA land should be run more like a project. Raul hasn't done much in over a year and his last edit was in mid Feb 2013 saying he'd post comments in a few days. He never did. He's clearly abdicated and FA tasks have been moving along just fine. The jobs are much larger than one person can reasonably handle. So I think the different tasks should stay pretty much as is with new people replacing the inactive ones on a consensus basis. For example, TFAR lists three people and Bencherlite is the only one that is active. Two more should be recruited. Nikki and Gerda have both helped them and they immediately come to mind. The FA Director title should change to FA Coordinator. Many projects have coordinators emeritus and Raul being an FA coordinator emeritus is fine but that does not mean he should be able to return and usurp his old role again. The various "delegates" should have their title changed to ""XXX Coordinator". They are not delegates, certainly not any more. The FA Coordinator selection should be done by consensus in the usual wiki ways, not left to a same group as some have suggested. Raul did a lot for FA land on wiki but he never should have done it in the manner he did, it was very unwiki, such as his comment about "This is FA related, so I can do whatever I want" (paraphrased). PumpkinSky talk 14:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Paraphrased indeed, and {{cn}} on your first sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to get back to Brian's original point about the expiration of JSTOR and the lack of anyone with any authority to advocate for resources that are behind a pay wall for content contributors. It's a serious concern. User:Ocaasi has done fine work in setting up access to one service and has established WP:The Wikipedia Library. This work should be encouraged. I'm not proposing him for featured article director I don't think anyone needs to fill that job since we've done just fine without one for quite some time. But whatever support we can throw behind him would be good.Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we might take all the power from Raul and give him an honorary title of "Director Emeritus" or whatever. Since I started nominating articles for FAC, I have never seen Raul anywhere and the process has worked just fine, thanks mostly to Graham's and Ian's endless efforts, which I appreciate a lot. This means that we don't need Raul anymore, and as such, we should just move on and leave him, and the position he held, in the past. I'm pretty confident that the current delegates are more than prepared to handle FAC just like they are doing. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 01:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We already went through an RFC six months ago, which confirmed Raul as FAC director. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And he's been directing what for the last year or so? Nothing. If anything he should be removed for not doing his job. I agree with Hac21, they system is working fine without him and we don't need to fill it, as long as we break up the tasks as they are now.PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye, I believe you mean a year and a half. And the community, whatever the merits, if any, of that RfC, was confirming a somewhat active editor, right now, we are discussing an editor who has not done so in five months. Abandoning his post. Don't they shoot you for that, in wartime?--Wehwalt (talk) 03:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pumpkin: "That is exactly what we don't want"—which bit of my post were you referring to? Tony (talk) 02:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that having one person on a project with so much power is anathema to wiki as is having a "Director for Life". Changing coordinators works fine on other projects and I see no reason it wouldn't here, but again, we don't need one overall director -- that has been proven by Raul not performing as the FA director for the last year or so. I suspect you won't agree, but you asked for clarification, so I clarified. PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where's Jimmy Wales when you need him? Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy gave up his God King status years ago. PumpkinSky talk 03:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know if Raul is even still alive? Rreagan007 (talk) 02:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

Hi everyone, I've protected Template:FAC-instructions for three days owing to edit warring spurring from this discussion. Can we all work towards a consensus here first, please? I really don't want to have to block anyone here (which edit warring through full protection will likely warrant). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies on the 3RR, I realized I hit it only after I hit save. Silly thing, not paying attention. :-) In any case, any editing there has been superseded by the discussions below. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I think I see a consensus being built below *crosses fingers*. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Wouldn't such edit warring lead to an automatic Arbitration Committee case? (as it would be wheel warring). Nick-D (talk) 02:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Per WW, "usually". We can avoid it, in theory. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - Now that it's been full protected, only admins can edit war over it. Personally, I feel that keeping Raul's name in there is just denying reality. PumpkinSky talk 03:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - Nothing has been heard from Raul in months. He hasn't been actively involved in the FAC process in years. Nobody knows if he's ever coming back. I've also never seen anything definitely showing how he came to be the FA Director in the first place. Did he just appoint himself to the position for life? That can't be right. I understand people have a lot of respect for the things he has done in the past, but it's time to move on. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        Raul, to his credit, did much to set up the Featured Article process in 2004. There was discussion then, and he was given the position, which did not contain an expiration date. By the time I joined the process in 2008, Raul was a distant figure who rarely participated in discussions and never in reviewing, and sometimes closed FAC when the then-delegates had conflicts of interests. And he also selected the TFA until he appointed delegates for that, somewhat later (2011?)--Wehwalt (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        And what does Raul do now as FA Director? Rreagan007 (talk) 04:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add my voice to the discussion: it's clear to me that Raul should not be listed as director on the page, regardless of what he has done in the past, due to his lack of active involvement. I also share concerns about the "director for life" status, if that's what it is. J Milburn (talk) 08:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the record: those who are inquiring about the history of the FA process can find an accurate accounting of that history, and a broad community endorsement of the description of the FA director position at Wikipedia:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership. It is incorrect to say there is no job description, incorrect to say Raul/Mark was inactive in 2008, and I do hope folks will read before continuing to opine. Best regards to all, and please do remember that what you say here is likely to be replayed in The Signpost; surely in this place where hopefully some of Wikipedia's finest writers convene we will find editors conducting themselves in a way that will bring pride and respect to all who value the bronze star. Admins edit-warring when discussion has barely started? When did Bold Revert Discuss turn into Bold Revert and I'm An Admin So I Can Revert Again ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it most likely won't be 'repeated' in the Signpost—most likely scenario, we'd include include a short in brief. As for admins, that's clearly directed at me, and I've already noted elsewhere that I didn't realize I was at three until after I hit the save button. As I've told you before: surprisingly, people make mistakes. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 04:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you could re-read WP:3RR and WP:BRD; are you unaware that your first revert was edit warring and that 3RR is not a license to revert three times? No, admin was not clearly directed at you or even directed at you ... I saw multiple admins in there, not to mention multiple editors who should have known better. And finally, I hope when The Signpost covers the issue, a neutral editor is located to do the writing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can I say as a non-regular, I don't understand the urgency of this at all? If Raul has been inactive for 5 months, I don't see how continuing to list him for a few days while the discussion went on was a great harm. I'm not even sure why it was so important to remove Raul, it would seem a simple solution would be to note he is nominally the FA director but has not been active for months and if necessary note in addition that his position has been disputed partially as a result of this inactivity. Some of this could be in a foot note and the precise wording could have been hashed out before editing. I would assume all parties would acknowledge the need for such clarification now that the issue has been brought up here. That being done, discussion could be held in a hopefully calm and civil manner with all interested parties participating in a non obstructive fashion, on whether Raul is FA director or not and/or whether to list them (if necessary, I don't feel this is that important compared to the later). And also whether to reform the governance model, replace Raul or what. As it stands, the instructions are a mess. Multiple mentions are made of a director, but no mention is made of who this is. Might I add I generally disagree (perhaps without mentioning) when people make a big deal out of how dysfunctional wikipedia is, but this sort of thing makes me think perhaps they're right? Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on governance of the FA forums

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Dear colleagues, current circumstances suggest that it's time for a structural adjustment in the governance of the three FA forums (FAC, FAR, and TFA). Two problematic issues inter alia have been discussed on this page: first, Raul, who has been FA director since 2004, has not edited since 11 February; and second, the director's role is not well defined and has involved little or no activity for some years.

The proposal, with minimal change in mind, is that we make three adjustments: (a) no director; (b) current "delegates" renamed as "coordinators", since their roles would no longer be delegated; and (c) the coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

The last is a pragmatic compromise to avoid the popularity contest that would result from voting for coordinators, while enabling the community to express its views on any proposed changes or appointments. It acknowledges that we already invest considerable trust in the FA coordinators (currently "delegates"), a trust that in my observation they have never abused.

This is the formal proposal:

FA director: That there no longer be a position of FA director,
Emeritus FA director: That the community record its profound gratitude to Raul for his creation of and service to the FA project over the past decade, and that he be asked to accept a new, honorary position of Emeritus FA Director, in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums.
FAC coordinators. That the current three FAC delegates be renamed FAC coordinators and continue in their roles without reference to a director.
FAR coordinators. That the current two FAR coordinators continue in their roles.¹
TFA coordinator. That the only active TFA delegate, Bencherlite, be renamed TFA coordinator and continue in his role without reference to a director.²
Changes and vacancies. That the FAC, FAR, and TFA coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

¹FAR is already run by coordinators, without reference to a director.
²Dabomb has indicated to Bencherlite that he is no longer available for TFA duties, and Gimmetrow (Gimmetoo) has not edited since January 2013. It has been noted above that FAR coordinator Nikkimaria has agreed to serve as a backup TFA delegate/coordinator.

This has been advertised at WP:VP, WP:CENT, and the talk pages of the other featured-content forums. I look forward to input from the community. Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support – Open to changing my mind. I have my concerns about proposal 6. I trust the community to be able to deal with the appointment of new coordinators without it becoming a popularity contest. I believe that Raul only ever governed by consent anyway. – Shudde ^talk 11:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is clearly a step in the right direction. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support—although I would prefer that the proposal address the possibility of appeals from the decisions of the new coordinators, or the potential for total recusal of the coordinators pool at an FA subprocess. Imzadi 1979 → 15:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support This looks like a great way forward, very sensible proposals. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, for now, with the exception of #2. We don't need more funny hats and we don't need a Byzantine system of honorary court titles on this wiki. I'm sure Raul doesn't need it either. If and when he returns, and wishes to get involved in the process again, the proposed system is quite sufficient to get him reenabled in any way people feel appropriate – e.g. as another coordinator. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support except give the emeritus director the same role/privileges as the other directors. Nergaal (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although it has several things that may need to be polished, but they can be polished later. This is way much better than our current situation here. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 17:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I read it as the advice offered does not have to be taken. --Rs chen 7754 19:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Seems sensible. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a needed change. Everyking (talk) 22:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, although I suggest that, should Raul not return to active editing, there be a process to remove any emeritus title he holds. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Seems like a step in the right direction. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1, 3, 4 and 5 only. We don't need to invent any new titles, and as Nick-D says below, what is "the FA community"? If all six options are offered only as an irreducible package, I cannot support them. — Scott • talk 13:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support because we need to reform the existing creaky system of FAs. Wer900 • talk 20:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'd also skip the emeritus thing, but if it pacifies somebody, so be it. --99of9 (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? It's a logical progression in the hierarchy of the site. Kurtis ^(talk) 23:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support most of this. The exception is #6. My preference would be that the coordinators be elected, and that the length of their terms be defined. And selection of coordinators needs to be opened up to the entire community, not just the FA community, which might be difficult or impossible to define. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as addressing the current situation and a step in the right direction. Community and new coordinators (which are part of the community btw) can discuss further details. I trust the current volunteers to keep an open communication and to work on occurring problems with all interested editors and reviewers. GermanJoe (talk) 14:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A necessary step in the right direction. Concerns about Raul abusing his new position referred to in #2 feel like raw nerves and/or hyperbole, as #2 mentions 'advice' only. If Raul oversteps that mark, he'll rightly cause quite a stir. #6 seems to be good enough for the moment; no doubt another RFC will appear in a year or two to consider issues that have arisen from this new model that haven't been addressed in the interim. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support This all seems pretty straightforward and is a minimal change based on how things are done currently anyways. Silverseren^C 01:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Strong Oppose See alternate below. PumpkinSky talk 12:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose There is no reason why the community should not be able to handle the selection of coordinators in these areas. It does so quite well in other areas. Number six is unfortunately an invitation for cliquery to eventually take over. No unlimited powers, no unlimited terms, no depriving the community of an effective voice in the process. I also decry Tony's misconduct in the matter, his desire to get have his proposal considered first, his email canvassing of delegates, and his edit warring so I have upgraded (?) to Strong OpposeWehwalt (talk)|

Oppose #2Sorry but that sounds plain ridiculous. Raul is another member of the community, and not the king of FA. 16:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retrolord (talk • contribs)

Strong Oppose all (including below) recognizing Tony's best intentions for the FA process, and I will lay out my reasoning in alternate sections as I have time later. In the meantime, there are numerous either outright false or misleading statements throughout the discussions on this page, and I suggest that all have a good read of the RFC held in the not-so-distant past which clearly lays out the history of FAC, the description of the FA director, as well as broad community support for the director position. Wikipedia:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership gives an accurate history of the FA process, errors on this page notwithstanding, and explains why a director is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[Maximum of 50 words: I've moved the rest of this post down to the discussion section. Tony (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)][reply]

You have no right to edit or move other people's comments. Given the canvassing and edit-warring you have engaged in, why would you be trusted to do so fairly?You are the proponent. No one has asked you to serve as coordinator.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a request for COMMENT: I am aware of no guideline that permits the person launching the RFC to dictate the size of subsequent responses. Perhaps someone could provide one? At any rate, I have left most of Tony's move in place and restored one sentence which I believe to be important: I have limited time, but do hope people opining here would have at least read the RFC. Choess, I saw a request from you somewhere on this page to elaborate on my ideas ... I am hoping to have a block of free time later today. Once again, I urge restraint and careful consideration here; I believe we are capable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Per SandyGeorgia. There is no reason for this. There was an RFC only a few months back that re-endorsed Raul as FA director, and his semi-retired status was not overlooked. I am not sure who the "FA community" referred to are but they appear to be "editors who have never written an Featured article, and are not involved in the process". Presumably it was added to prevent the delegates from simply scrapping it. Let's do this for them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Of the six positions, I support #1. No director has been needed for almost a year, as far as I can see, we don't need one in the future. - I don't know why new people to help the FA processes (however these people are called, if at all) would be "chosen" by those already active, - it seems not in community spirit, therefore I oppose #6. I am willing to help as far as I am able, without any title, as I did before. It would just be nice to get a thank-you (not this) if you help, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's unclear what is meant by the "FA community" in this context, so I can't support this proposal - this would be saving up trouble. Nick-D (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, essentially echoing Nick and Wehwalt. What makes someone part of the "FA community", exactly? Is it that they comment on FAs, that they write them? In either case, this would inevitably lead to insurmountable problems. If something goes terribly wrong with the FA system, I don't want the people tasked with resolving it to be defined as "the people who, by dint of tolerating a terribly broken FA system, qualify as part of the FA community". It lends itself to poor governance review, should governance problems crop up, because the group it excludes from having a voice is those who have an issue with the system. Ironholds (talk) 10:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Sandy; imo we do need a new person as director, as Raul seems to have completely dropped away, but not changes to the system (decided by this sort of process) otherwise. Johnbod (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – The problem isn't with the system, but with the director himself. Raul has doubtlessly done a lot for the FA process, but he just isn't around at this time and really hasn't been on a consistent basis for years. When I supported him at the last RFC, I was assuming that he would become more active again, but that didn't happen. If it was up to me, we would be deciding on a new director now. The prospect of choosing one scares me, as I've said before, because of the hostility that shows up any time we have a serious debate on the matter, but we're at the point where things can't continue this way. Still, I think the idea of a director remains valid, and the concept still works at FLC. I like the idea of having somebody who can weigh consensus on difficult FACs/FARs and provide guidance in general. And how would the "coordinators" consult with the FA community? We (the community) already ratify delegates now, so this isn't changing anything in the current system. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Seems to me that the system is working; however we need to figure out how to proceed with a means by which delegates and a director can be legitimately agreed upon. I nominate Sandy to succeed Raul...Modernist (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose T. trichiura Infect me 15:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose there may very well be good reasons why the governance model needs to change, but I don't think this has been sufficietly established. More importantly, while I don't deny the good intentions behind this proposal, it does seem it was rushed, insufficiently discussed and poorly implemented. That means it's entirely unclear if this is really the best way to reform. And I don't think the set up of this RFC is good for such discussion as it was set up to discuss one proposal (even if a package of proposals are contained within that proposal and people are free to reject those they feel unnecessary) with the later addition of another. (It also shows on other ways like the lack of clarity surrounding some aspects of the proposal, as highlighted by others.) I'm not even sure if an RFC is needed so earlier on, or it would be better for interested parties to have preliminary discussion leading either to a a small number of options to be put to RFC, or a more structured RFC seeking feedback depending on what those participating feel is necessary. BTW, I'm not sure if this exceeds 50 words, but I ask this be kept here as I feel my comments in their entirety are needed to explain my position for admins trying to determine consensus. And while I appreciate the desire to keep general discussion structured, I'm not sure that a hard word limit is the way to go. I'm also pretty sure there's no guideline allowing any such unilateral imposition. And yes, I appreciate the irony that these comments may push it over but given the controversy above even if it seems to have been resolved I felt it best to pre-empt. Nil Einne (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as written because point 6 creates an ill-defined clique of the Featured Article Community that could further cause disputes over who belongs to the clique. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Use of pejorative descriptors like “god”, “king”, “dictator”, “oligarchy”, etc. and allusions thereto in the surrounding discussions strikes me as unintelligent and obtuse conflation of oversight of mere process(es) with governance of a nation state. The role of director is and generally has been that of an independent (i.e., as auditors use the term – neutral, free of conflict of interest) and informed observer who may act as an end point of escalation/final arbiter when necessary (note, importantly, that “observer” implies a hands-off approach). I don’t recall Raul oppressing the huddled masses, rendering editors into pillars of salt, or banishing those who poach his deer. To believe FA director is a position of power in line with the aforementioned pejoratives is to fail to understand the FA process(es) and the role itself. If semantics are at issue and “director” is too commanding a title, choose “chairperson”, but removal of an appellate position would be unwise. The current structure and functions are necessary to the process, but they do need active editors. Эlcobbola _talk 15:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is, other than his attempts to ban (and block) Br'er Rabbit, whose wikicide did not vindicate Raul (though I hear there's a rant a-prepping to the contrary which argues at extreme length and screams about sockpuppets and sockmasters and other matters unlikely to ensure the peace is kept around here). He also went forth on his talk page against those he deemed his opponents, including myself, which surely was not putting production before personality, for not respecting his Divine Right to FAC, and against PumpkinSky, which led to the infamous conversation here in which his close ally Moni3 blocked PumpkinSky, indef and without warning, two hours after calling him an "idiot" and a "dingus" (closely akin to the conduct which Hawkeye7 was desysopped for for blocking Malleus), and two minutes after SandyGeorgia had complained that "Did I say, a few hours ago, "Oh, I'm so sure all will be promptly, courteously, and correctly dealt with at ANI !!!" Yep. Ok, no action, and people removing the template from his talk even though it's confirmed. I've been ... ummmmm ... informed that Rlevse still has friends in powerful places. Not only has there been no block, there's not even a tag on his page. Yay ANI !!! So, what's the next step for getting this account blocked? I'm noticing how little the community gives a darn about the sustained disruption that has been visited upon FAC for months now." Moni3 had, as I recall, also threatened a block against PS during the so-called RfC, which certainly helped put the chill on opposition there. Given that PumpkinSky has returned to help pen the most-viewed TFA in history, again, I think he is well-vindicated. And it says something about the climate of fear around here that although Moni's misconduct was (to my knowledge) reasonably widely known, no one had the guts to do anything about it until 28bytes finally unblocked him, and 28bytes was then promptly elevated to bureaucrat with near-unanimous support. We were all afraid ...

The past administration was more about personality than production. In what way was Raul independent when he was ranting against productive FA writers such as myself and PumpkinSky for having the temerity to question his indefinite term as director? Would you hire an outside accountant with a public grudge against the CFO? Raul's absence does not make the heart grow fonder, and I urge everyone to read a few threads before going on a nostalgia kick. I hope for a fairer, less personal, less permanent, and less emotional administration in future. We cannot afford to turn the keys to the kingdom over to anyone without checks and balances, such as term limits.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And let's not forget Raul's onwiki "pitchforks" statements where he colluded with Moni against me and got me blocked--the one Wehwalt is talking about. PumpkinSky talk 12:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I’m sure this is all quite fascinating, but, as an attorney, I would expect you know better than most the utter meaninglessness of speculation. Nowhere here is a coherent explanation of why a director position is detrimental to the FA process. The situation you reference 1) undermines notions of divinity or dictatorship (Raul, an admin, would not need to use Moni to block adversaries if actually in position of unchecked power) and 2) would still arise under a community election model (admins so elected are perpetually accused of acting as a cabal, and equally as baselessly). Where are diffs of Raul acting unilaterally to the detriment of the project or the process? Where, next, is an analysis of how this action was the result of a corrupting effect of the position, not attributable to Raul as a person? Where is an analysis of how the RfC was not (and would not in the future be) a power check? (Name an editor so “chilled” by the purported collusion so as to have avoided participation therein; then name 68 more to equalize support for an elected roll.) It seems rather telling that the response addressed the sentence in which I was being glib rather than the sincere points. Speaking ill of an editor is not an abuse of power, and good works do not “vindicate” misbehavior, a notion of which PumpkinSky is likely aware. Эlcobbola _talk 17:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As you wish. You spoke of the need for independence, the need for someone who was "neutral, free of conflict of interest". I believe what I put is evidence that Raul was not. This is not a court of law; I need not follow the rules of evidence as locally implemented. I believe I have adequately shown that the governance model is somewhat capable of improvement, as evidenced by specific incidents which amount to a course of conduct. You, on the other hand may choose to view it as the best of all possible FACs and that is your privilege.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose any special status for Raul who in my experience has pushed some sort of agenda, I am not certain of its exact goals, for years. A formal thank you is not objectionable but ratification of his activities is not. Replacing an old clique with a new one would not be progress. The process needs to be open without veto power by some "respected" leader. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

5 out of 6: Which I guess is "neutral." Cannot abide the idea of replacing the current system with something apt to become exactly the same thing. Will comment further on the thread below Montanabw^(talk) 19:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. Would like to see Sandy's proposal further developed. I don't think it's appropriate for us to retain someone who's de facto abdicated as an official part of the process. Can see arguments both for retaining the role of director and for distributing remaining powers among delegates. Choess (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Choess, I am seriously busy through mid-August, but I hope to find a block of free time in the next 24 hours to write up something. These RFCs were launched prematurely, and there is much that should be discussed in terms of what options are before us before people start "voting" on RFCs. It is always unfortunate when someone launches an RFC without adequate discussion, and we have shown many times at FAC that we know how to discuss, frame, then launch ... my time is so limited for the next six weeks and it would be most encouraging to catch up here and find people behaving in ways that bring respect to these pages. I'll be back as soon as I have a block of free time and can address this con calma. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't feel rushed. At the time I was presuming that this RfC might actually go somewhere, and I wanted to be able to weight the alternatives of single director (for which there's no formal proposal here) vs. committee of coordinators. (I think there are advantages and disadvantages for both). Since the whole thing is now collapsing in the process-and-formatting bickering that precedes a non-consensus close, I don't feel a particular sense of urgency. Choess (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for understanding ... unfortunately, too much of what little editing time I had today was taken up with some of the unnecessary back-and-forth, and merely correcting a few of the many misstatements that are throughout this discussion. I have every intention of writing something up, but would prefer to do it when I can devote a full block of calm, uninterrupted time without IRL pressing demands. In particular, I want to address examples of situations that have come up in the past as they influence the decision about a directorship relative to delegates, but it is challenging to write about often confidential and very delicate situations, extending at times to RL, in which full disclosure would violate Wikipedia policies-- there are numerous examples that have been unaccounted for in these discussions, but how to write about those examples presents a problem. I sincerely hope that before the time comes that I can write something up, we will see participants here showing a willingness to work together towards productive solutions and the framing of a well-considered RFC. (Also, thanks Brianboulton for the response!) Best to all, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not involved in FA matters at all, but any system (either the old or the proposed one) that relies on a hierarchical setup of functionaries strikes me as somehow un-Wikipedian. Or maybe it's just me who thinks that too much fuss altogether is made over these little golden stars? Sandstein 07:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

The one deficiency that I see in the proposal is the potential need of a "supervisor" for the FA process to handle a) appeals from the decision of one of the subprocess coordinators or b) decisions in a subprocess when all of the coordinators are recused. It would be unfair to ask a co-equal coordinator to override the decision of another co-equal coordinator in the event of a disagreement over the closure of a nomination at FAC, FAR or TFA. Likewise, it isn't far-fetched to imagine the situation when all coordinators would end up recused from a nomination. At least with the directorship, there was the nominal avenue of appeal, and the backup of someone able to step in at a subprocess on the rare occasion when the delegates were recused or unavailable. Note: I do not want such appeals sent to the community, as such an action, would in my opinion, undermine the independent and impartial role established for the leadership in the overall FA process. Imzadi 1979 → 15:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. And we have had such situations in the past (those who don't know history ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia moved unnecessarily: [Moved from the second half of SandyGeorgia's post in the Oppose section—maximum of 50 words, per instructions. Tony (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)] Wikipedia:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership gives an accurate history of the FA process, errors on this page notwithstanding, and explains why a director is needed. "Coordinators" do not, cannot, and will not be able to uphold what has always made FAC work, which is the ability of delegates to ignore pile-on, buddy , rubber-stamp, "vote"-style supports and who are empowered instead to allow one well-placed oppose to prevent the promotion of poor articles to featured status. (FAC is not a vote-- diminishing delegates to "coordinator"-style vote counters will diminish the process.) The position of FA director, in that sense, is distinct from, for example, a MilHist coordinator. This proposal will, in sum, eliminate that ability and diminish the FA process to another vote, with quality of articles diminished. I will initiate a discussion as I have time, implore newcomers to read the old and very thorough RFC, ask those assuming that I have not emailed Raul to please use some common sense (I am not *that* useless), am dismayed to see that admins have edit warred over something well within the competence of the delegates to handle, and am reminded that some behavior here has amply demonstrated exactly why a director is needed. I implore the delegates to convene and nominate a new director from their ranks and put that person forward for community endorsement. That is all I have time for now, other than to remind folks here that we have in the past demonstrated the ability to put forward well considered RFCs that have broadly endorsed the position of FA director, time and time again. For the sake of what value remains in the bronze star, could we all please show some respect and restraint? And could we please frame RFCs correctly? The history and duties and job description are well laid out in a very broadly endorsed and fairly recent RFC; I encourage caution and restraint in tossing out something that has been so broadly endorsed as working in the past, merely because those who brought FA to a successful place were ungratefully chased off of Wikipedia by those who sought to eliminate the position. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is precisely why we are here; the god of FAR abicated, leaving a vacuum. So long as there is an odd number of coordinators, I see no worries with a coordinator model. That said, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, sort of like US Judges on the lower-level courts (where no one person is designated "chief justice"), with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person becomes entrenched. Montanabw^(talk) 20:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea if I should Support or be Neutral on this. Is there a difference between being a coordinator and a delegate? GamerPro64 20:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delegate means you were appointed by and working for someone. Coordinator is more in line with the consensus model. PumpkinSky talk 20:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Huh. Never knew that. Guess I have to change my status at Featured Topics then. GamerPro64 20:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GamerPro, that is a very good question, which no one yet on this page has accurately addressed. I hope to find time later today to explain that and address some other inaccuracies on this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I tell ya. This is becoming really confusing at this point. Sure I work at a different sector for Featured content but seeing that Featured Articles are usually part of Featured Topics I just wanna see if there's something to this discussion. GamerPro64 18:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, in the interest of correcting inaccuracies above:

FA coordinators will, of course, have the same power as the delegates have now. The argument given above—that the coordinators at the Military history Project don't have the ability to ignore supports or opposes in its A-class reviews—is wrong. The only difference for FA coordinators vs. delegates is in the name.
The previous RfC was one year and five months ago. That's far longer than "a few months back", and it is clearly enough time to allow consensus to change; I'm one of those who have switched sides.
The need for a 'supervisor' is really one that everyone should decide for themselves, but appealing to one or both of the other coordinators/delegates is clearly an option, and one that has worked well at the Military history Project and the WikiCup. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 22:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinators should not have the absolute power to set policy, but certainly they should have discretion, as stated, to close nominations to ignore improper votes. I think that's fundamental to being asked to determine consensusWehwalt (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little nervous about the "votes" formulation. As I understand it, when an article comes to FAC, the FA director or his delegate is responsible for determining whether or not it meets FA standards. Since that's a herculean task, and so as to be less skewed by personal bias, the delegate solicits input from members of the community. But it isn't a "vote" in the sense that if six people support, one person opposes and provides a counterexample that the delegate agrees is valid, the article won't be promoted, numbers notwithstanding. "We will continue refining until all valid objections are satisfied" is, after all, closer to the proper use of "consensus" than a majority vote. (I suspect we're in vehement agreement on the general thrust here—that for the purposes of this proposal, the coordinators should collectively enjoy the powers of the director to determine consensus—but I wanted to clarify.) Choess (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we're all in the same camp here—I'm not opining that they be given unilateral power, just the leeway to discount FAC votes. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused by Hawkeye7's comment; as Ed pointed out, the big, high-participation RfC on the subject was seventeen months ago, not "a few months". Furthermore, when I look over it, I see comments like this: "I would prefer if Raul got more involved in the day-to-day operations of the FA process," "a discussion on what should happen when the current Director is no longer able or willing to continue would be beneficial," "As long as he continues to discharge his functions, she should not have to spend time on campaigning to keep the job," "I hope that well before he leaves Raul will try to set up some succession system," "I would like to see Raul...in a more visible role," "I would like to see a yearly (Dispatches-style?) report back from the Director and delegates in each area on how each process is going". I do not see this as an endorsement of "semi-retirement", and indeed, many people explicitly endorsed the idea that Raul's role should be re-examined by an RfC if issues with his performance arose—as we're doing now. Choess (talk) 02:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And yet the proposal above would institutionalize the same sort of appointment process that left us with Raul, whose enthusiasm curve for the project could easily be mapped. While we are blessed with good coordinators now, the same might not always be true. I do not think it's a good idea to brook a repetition of watching Raul (not the person who used that name, but the "character". Undoubtedly the man who used the name "Raul654" to edit Wikipedia is doing good work someplace) slowly becoming inert, and why a proposal would be brought which would expose the community to a possible repetition, is beyond me..--Wehwalt (talk) 03:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that was what, an eight-year trajectory from "someone needs to take charge of this" to phoning it in? This seems like overplanning for events of that frequency. Moreover, replacing the delegates seems to have run along without too much drama—and if all the responsibility devolved on them, they'd have a good incentive to encourage inactive delegates to resign (more work for them). More later when I have time. Choess (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not really... Raul was enshrined by an op-ended process in 2003. This process would instead have the coordinators/delegates propose a respected editor to the FA community to confirm. I'm leaning more towards elections, but I also fully suppose this step, which is far better than what we have now. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 06:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see Tony's proposal as, say, making the "consent" stage of the American Senate's "advise and consent" purely optional. Which would reduce it to irrelevance.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I interpret it as a requirement, something that the delegates aren't currently held to... Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We saw, I think, when Raul briefly rumbled back into life in 2012, that he ignored possible delegate candidates, such as Brianboulton, who were too closely associated with those he deemed his enemies who had had the temerity (in his mind) to try to oust him. While the present active delegates are all good eggs, the day will come when they move on from Wikipedia. Nothing lasts forever. Enthusiasm arcs have a downward side, too. They will one day be replaced. Allowing for a self-perpetuating oligarchy is a grievous error, just because Tony does not trust the community is no reason to have it a College of Cardinals, with or without a pope. At least they retire at 80.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the words I think do not make that false allegation any more accurate. Wehwalt, I do not have time to track down every misstatement on this page, but I know that somewhere on this page you mentioned that in wartime, people would be shot for <whatever>. Please lower the hyperbole here; this is not wartime, it is a website, and that was a most unnecessary and inflammatory statement ... hopefully we can keep our statements accurate and in perspective so as to advance the discourse. Never did Raul or anyone fail to consider Brianboulton; at one time, Brian himself said he couldn't do it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For once, Sandy and I find ourselves in agreement. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uh huh. Well, Sandy, welcome back to your old hates and targets. We've kept your stool warm for you.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, wehwalt, please lower the hyperbole and personalization ... there is a job that needs to be done here. Do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem? Re: The ed17 and User:Brianboulton, perhaps Brian can update his status re interest and availability should an opening arise? I doubt that I am the only one who remembers that he once expressed that he wasn't available; perhaps that has changed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He I believe has both stated his willingness to help at one time, and his unavailability at another. To my mind, he would be a credit to any process he sought to lead. And is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification. I thank Wehwalt for his kind words. Sandy, your recollection is substantially correct; I have never sought to be a delegate or to assume a leadership role. I'm not even an admin, nor will ever be. I can't be bothered to rake up the diffs, but I may inadvertently have muddied the waters by saying, on more than one occasion, that I thought Raul should have appointed "alternate" delegates for FAC and TFA, who could be asked to act in the short term when the substantive delegates were unavailable. This was at a time when Sandy was acting effectively on her own at FAC, and when the TFA system had almost broken down. I indicated that I would act as an alternate, but thankfully we have moved on from those times and the need has declined. I see my WP role as a content builder and as a reviewer. I will within reason help anybody out who asks, but I want no formal position or status. I certainly don't hold it personally against Raul that he didn't take up my suggestion (though I think he should have), and I have absolute confidence in the current delegates. I do think the featured article process needs active rather than symbolic overall leadership, and I hope that the current debate will establish this by some means, without too much of "let's tear each other apart first". Brianboulton (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the gentle comments and I apologize to you for any misstatement I made regarding you. That being said, my commitment to a process where some would have it that I should never even have an effective say in choosing the leadership (non-voting stock not included) despite the immense time I have spent on it is not inexhaustible. Being a peon is not savory to me.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do regard 17 months as "a few". And yes, the MilHist coordinators can override Support and Oppose votes in A class reviews - and I have done so. It is not a vote, and it is not some exercise in consensus. Our A class certification says that an article has been verified by the subject experts. If it's wrong, I'll still fail it no matter how many supports it has. But the visibility and authority of the MilHist coordinator falls fall short of that of the FAC delegates. We are only a small and fairly insignificant project; but the delegates bailiwick is Wikipedia-wide, their visibility goes right to the front page, and they have broad reserve powers to enforce this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I see this as an attempt to forewarn (and get on side) the incumbent delegates by a partisan who has made it clear he does not support any sort of effective role for the community (that is, one that the community can make stick) in the featured article areas, to set the rules by which his own proposal shall be considered, and, to make sure that his proposal gets the favorable position at the top of the queue without giving warning so that no one else gets in first. He, no administrator and no neutral, has event taken the liberty of editing and moving others' comments [2] for violating the rules which he, a partisan, has set. One cannot be both a proposer and coordinate the RfC, and there has been no agreement on who should This is an attempt to get one's way by being first in line (by willful concealment of intent). Unfair way of doing business.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Far from the conspiracy theory you're looking for, it was a courtesy to warn each delegate, and as I explained to Bencher in a subsequent post you seem to have missed, I was concerned about the potential understaffing of TFA before writing the proposal. As it turned out, this wasn't at issue in the proposal, and I should have read the dialogue between Bencher and Ian Rose further up this page. As far as getting the current delegates "on side", the RFC doesn't need that, and I don't care what they think or how they vote: the RFC seeks consensus from the community, and the view of delegates is relevant only insofar as they are part of the community. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. There's no need to shout in the edit-summary; if this "comment" section blows out, I'm going to move it into the discussion thread below. Tony (talk) 08:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Conspiracy theory? I simply state what's fair for one is fair for all. You gave privileged advance warning to a favored few. Now, had you simply posted your intent, with courtesy notices on the delegates' pages, I could have had no objections. As it stands, though, it smacks of gaming. As do threats of moving comments, which you lack any privilege to do by all the conventional rules. At least last time, the RfC coordinator assured us he was neutral. You are a proponent and should not move the comments of those who do not agree with you. And if they are removed by another, well, we know Tony sends emails.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[Moved from the opening, where it certainly doesn't belong. Tony (talk) 02:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)] :Because of Tony's repeated removals of text where he does not want it to go, I have begun an AN/I thread to address the question of Tony's edit warring to maintain this area as he wants it, though he has no warrant to do so with reverts here and here and [3]. The canvassing included this. Editors may feel free to join the discussion here.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"FA community"

Two editors above have queried the intended meaning of the term "the FA community" in the sixth item of the proposal: "That the FAC, FAR, and TFA coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies." I thought it was unnecessary to spell it out; perhaps I was wrong. The assumption, I suppose, is that the coordinators would advertise any consultative process on the talk pages of all three FA forums and seek the views of anyone who wanted to give their opinion (of course, any editor can advertise a discussion further afield if they wish, as I've done for this RFC). At the moment, community opinion is given no official role when changes in the numbers of delegates/coordinators, and the filling of vacancies, are under consideration. Item 6 guarantees that the community's voice must be heard.

What is surprising is the feeling among a few editors here that other arrangements for the administration of content forums are somehow insulation from the development of cliquey behaviour. Yet several quite differently run forums are marked by cliquey governance and poor or even chaotic standards. Fortunately, a significant majority of people here see that maintaining high quality and disciplined leadership at FA forums requires a certain distance from popularism, and that the latter is likely to be an inevitable feature of an electoral system. This is why I've framed this compromise. Item 6, embodies a cautious, moderate step, and yes, it is a central and indivisible feature of the proposal. Underpinning it is the reality that it's actually rather hard for the people who run FA forums to ignore community opinion on structural proposals for coordinators. Tony (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the process

As someone who hasn't weighed in on this process (I think it's pretty rushed and would have benefited by more discussion before being taken to the RFC stage).... some of the recent comments don't really help me want to participate. It's getting well into personalizing the dispute ... let's take it away from who did what to whom and stick with discussing what concrete changes will make things better. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Who did what to whom and the fallout and whys are very pertinent as to what should no longer be, a sole person being unaccountable to anyone, that's why the history is germane here.PumpkinSky talk 13:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry if it is distasteful, and I am still weak from my hospital stay and perhaps my judgment is not all it should be. But there are instances where Raul and his close allies used their positions against those they deemed their foes. Ignoring that fact only spreads a myth that all was sweetness and light under his regime. A smarter man than I spoke of what absolute power does to people. A widespread theme in the comments on the RfC was "well, there's no problems at FAC, so why make a change?" Yes. There. Were.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BINGO. Raul ran FA land like his personal fiefdom and attempted to stomp out all dissent. If need be I can post all the evidence I have on it. PumpkinSky talk 14:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free. Let's have things out in the open, then maybe we can have some proper discussion before someone starts another snap RfC on rushing us back to the same system or a close clone thereof.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate RFC on governance of the FA forums

Tony1's proposal just above is close to what I'd propose myself, but I can not abide by item six. I simply feel that the FA processes should not be treated differently that other parts of the encyclopedia, that the community is perfectly capable of handling coordinator rotations. The FA coordinators should not be a self-governing group. The whole idea is anathema to our basic principles. I also have a minor quibble with item 2, and would change the last clause about "high level" advice. If Raul returns, he can chime in just like any other editor. Therefore I submit the following alternate.

This is the formal proposal:

Incorporate the RFC proposal about by Tony1 with two exceptions: The phrase "in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums" is removed from item 2, and item 6 is changed to read "shall be handled by community consensus".

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Support PumpkinSky talk 12:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is better than the first proposal, but I support either one. Everyking (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. — Scott • talk 17:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support basic concept notably the "no dictator for life" provision. May need some refinement, but that will happen. Montanabw^(talk) 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support This would be fine by me too - I'm happy to trust popular democracy amongst FA thinkers. --99of9 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This pretty closely matches what I said in response to the first poll on the page. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - This addresses my issue with point 6. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Oppose both suggested amendments to the original RFC. This is too radical; my concern is to fix an issue without capsizing the boat. Forcing popular democracy would remove the discipline that has made FAC what it is, and the ability of delegates/coordinators to distance themselves from the whims of nominators and reviewers. I'd rather be conservative for the moment. It's safer. Tony (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The proposal does not address the powers of the coordinators nor does it provide for the case which we've just experienced of an incumbent who loses interest in the project. And have these RFC's been advertised? that was part of the problem last time. There was an objection to outsiders as I recall.Wehwalt (talk)|
Oppose—proposal doesn't ensure the independence and impartiality needed of the leadership to make the tough decisions needed of the respective positions. Imzadi 1979 → 15:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this is not politics, and never should be about politics. --Rs chen 7754 19:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, for the same reasons I gave in the section above. The FA processes do need a director, as this discussion has demonstrated. I also urge participants here to discuss before launching RFCs (and also to discuss before edit warring on FA pages that benefit from stability). We have launched effective and well-worded RFCs before; perhaps we can do it again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The role of coordinator or delegate or whatever inherently involves making decisions that will make people unhappy. Our consensus processes for that are terrible; we only accept RfA because we can't agree on a replacement, and ArbCom elections are not that much better behaved. The abstract principle of community consensus is not sufficient reason to introduce RfA-style dysfunction into a fairly well-running process. Choess (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (sorry), pretty much per Choess. I think there is little to gain and alot to lose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Question. Can someone give me a real no joke explanation of why FA land is so different (I've never heard one) from RFA and Arbcom? Based on this logic we should elect arbs for life and scrap the whole "wiki is a consensus collaborative environment" meme. PumpkinSky talk 22:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - FA works. RFA and ArbCom are totally broken. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - Not good enough. Are you saying arbs should be elected for life? Admins appointed by Jimbo or what? And that the meme that wiki works on consensus model be dumped? PumpkinSky talk 09:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – We already handle the addition of new delegates by community consensus. Every time I've seen a new delegate, they have been supported by other editors on FAC talk; a few have been ratified by the community, I believe. If people object to a certain editor, they have every opportunity to give their opinion; if enough had given a negative opinion last year, Raul wouldn't be the director now. Not to mention that we should avoid becoming more like RFA and ArbCom at all costs. I'd hate to see the top content process on Wikipedia become purely a popularity contest. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per my comment above. I acknowledge that this proposal was set up in response to the above proposal, but I still think it would be better to discuss more rather than !voting on a bunch of ad hoc proposals. Nil Einne (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per my opposition to the previous proposal. Эlcobbola _talk 15:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Agree with Rschen. This cannot be a popularity contest. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Hawkeye7. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 06:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The argument that "FAC shouldn't be political" is a red herring. Social pressure would keep even elected delegates from going off the reservation and favoring people. First, there aren't that many doubtful cases at FAC. Second, overt favoring would be picked apart by very bright people. Exactly what could delegates do to favor? Promote their friends on two supports and their opponents on four? These things would be noticed and their positions undermined. PumpkinSky talk 12:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Choess and Hawkeye. Ceoil (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Discussion

Can we merge the two proposals to one before we start voting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wants to do that and Tony does not object, it's okay with me. I didn't want to just start changing his work. I'll ping him.PumpkinSky talk 12:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What if everyone started an "alternate RFC" because they objected to one or two elements of the existing RFC? The proper place for this is in the original discussion section. Tony (talk) 13:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why should only the first person in the door get to make a proposal then?--Wehwalt (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am eager to see your proposal on this, Wehwalt. PumpkinSky talk 13:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My thought is that the community should select coordinators, but these people would not then be eligible for another term until a period of time out of office had passed. I was thinking along the lines of two-year terms and six months then out of office. I would also make it clear that the community sets policy, and that the delegates have discretion in how they judge consensus. If they think a vote is abusive, they can disregard it.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notices at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RFCs_on_FA_changes, Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article/requests, Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review#RFCs_on_FA_changes.PumpkinSky talk 13:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems silly to start two or more RfCs at once; it'll doom them all, IMHO. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Item six is simply not acceptable. That's as unwiki as it gets. We've already been putting up with the FA-fiefdom for 11 years. Enough already. Let's vote on each line item or all variations at once. This issue needs to be settled after so many years of stagnation. One RFC option at a time will take forever.PumpkinSky talk 14:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with Ed. I worry that voter fatigue could become an issue if people have too many places to vote. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pumpkin, the safeguard I've proposed is to build into governance the seeking of the community's view on filling vacancies and other managerial changes (even though it's ultimately up to the committee of coordinators, which is in effect how it's been for some time). Tony (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No Tony, what you propose is for what is left of Raul's fiefdom to maintain its powerbase and the illusion that FA is special and exempt from wiki's standard policies. PumpkinSky talk 16:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of any delegate who has been appointed by anyone other then Raul. Raul has said in the past that he consulted with delegates, but I seem to remember some delegates posting that they had not heard from Raul on the matter, so I don't know.Wehwalt (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment noting above, where I suggested, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, allowing the tiebreaker role of a "boss" but not the risk of entrenchment and rot, with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person get too fond of their magic wand. Montanabw^(talk) 20:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where did the commitee get their power from? The community. I don't see how WP:FA reached the point where the commitee of coords was somehow above the rest of the community. ★★Retro Lord ★★ 16:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Because Raul founded the FA "project" back about 2004, always considered it his personal fiefdom where he could do whatever he wanted, was "director" (read "dictator") for life, most of the community always kowtowed to him, and the result is what you see.PumpkinSky talk 17:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not like its a bad thing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yea - I support some reform here no doubt. Now I admit that I'm saying this through gritted teeth - but someone should probably - just out of courtesy - email Raul too. It's only fair since it does affect him. Maybe Sandy could as I know they were familiar with each other on wiki. I would love to be pinged once this goes live and official in the "RfC" and WP:CENT sort of way. — Ched : ? 14:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Well ... ping. ;-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Imzadi 1979 by that logic arbs should be arbs for life, so where's the difference? There is none. PumpkinSky talk 17:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
reply to PumpkinSky's question above in the "Oppose" section. I can give two reasons why this situation is different from RfA and ArbCom. The first is, essentially, the reason I gave in my opinion: the RfA and ArbCom election processes are fairly dysfunctional; the problems with FA seem much more limited in scope and generally manageable. I admit I'm rather bemused that, after expressing your great dissatisfaction with ArbCom failing to take your case against DocJames, among other things, you're eager to recapitulate the community consensus-building process that produced that ArbCom here at FA. Second, I disagree with your implied premise that unless we subject all delegates or directors to individual examination, they are appointed "for life" or don't have "community consensus". The RfC a year and a half ago didn't confirm life tenure for Raul; what it confirmed was that the community did not see the wisdom of removing him at that time, nor of establishing an election system. Now, we're holding another ad hoc RfC, and while we may disagree on the details of how to do it, I'd say there's a decent consensus developing that the FA process should be headed by people who are actually here and editing and that someone or something should replace him. In short, the 2012 RfC established a consensus (which seems to be holding up in this RfC) that FA staffing should be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, rather than by a regular system of elections or RfWhatevers. Such a consensus does not exist for RfA or ArbCom. Choess (talk) 02:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @’’Choess’’ section. Thanks. That’s the best explanation for that viewpoint I’ve heard yet. While I understand much better, I still do not agree with all of it. I also think you misinterpret some of what said and some things I said are rhetorical. Yes, I think we all agree RFA and AC are dysfunctional. Every wikiproject I am familiar with either holds formal elections or an ‘’ad hoc’’ poll to choose new coordinators. The problem with Tony’s RFA wording on that, despite taking “community input”, whomever the current coordinators are still select their own replacements. As Wehwalt says, this makes it a self-perpetuating oligarchy and that is why fervently oppose that model. The ‘’ad hoc’’ system that some wiki projects use would be fine with me (not ones where a coordinator picks his/her replacement). Yes, it’s clear that my alt RFC will likely fail. That’s fine. I still have the right to propose it. Tony’s version is roughly at 50/50 now but many of the supports are partial. I agree that there's a decent consensus developing that the FA process should be headed by people who are actually here and editing. It’s the specifics of how the coordinators are chosen that are hanging these up. I feel the community can soon agree on a new FA coordinator process after taking comments from both RFC versions. PumpkinSky talk 15:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - The argument that "FAC shouldn't be political" is a red herring. Social pressure would keep even elected delegates from going off the reservation and favoring people. First, there aren't that many doubtful cases at FAC. Second, overt favoring would be picked apart by very bright people. Exactly what could delegates do to favor? Promote their friends on two supports and their opponents on four? These things would be noticed and their positions undermined. PumpkinSky talk 12:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - No, but you getting closer to understanding. The problem is that you're looking at it from a people perspective rather than an article perspective. The whole purpose of the delegate mechanism ("apostolic succession") is to preserve Raul's original vision of exactly what a featured article should look like. The delegates have been chosen precisely because they share that vision. So whether he's here or not, the spirit of Raul is to some extent present in every featured article. What you see as a self-perpetuating oligarchy, I see as a set of featured articles mirroring the same ideal. You change the process, you change the definition of what is a featured article. Any I for one don't want any part of what you are proposing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - No, Raul has a lousy idea of what a FA should be. He has more former FAs than current FAs. Writers and reviewers much better know what a FA is than Raul. He had the original idea, but you give him way too much credit. Your post sounds like you're talking about Saint Raul, and he was far from that. Should wiki erect a shrine to Saint Raul? Changing the process does not change what an FA is; that's such an extreme extrapolation I won't even belabor the point. And I don't want any part of what you are proposing, so let's call it a draw. Thanks for responding. I do appreciate that. PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there really a problem here we're solving?

I admit I'm a bit nonplussed at all the wordiness above. Are there any problems that these RfC's will actually solve? In the past, we've had the current delegates discuss among themselves and present candidates who were essentially ratified by the FA community on an ad hoc basis; what real issues has this created? (After all, I figure the people who have to parse through all the FACs would actually know if they need extra hands.)

My only issue leading into this was that Raul was described in a capacity he has not functioned in for quite some time, and it seems a pretty obvious decision to remove him from instructional materials for a process he is not involved in. I guess removing him as "director" makes the "delegate" language a bit odd, and I can see how "coordinators" implies more scheduling than active discretion on the part of the delegates. But the above RfCs seem like a massive waste. If there's no problem at present, we're essentially adding layers of bureaucracy we don't need for a hypothetical scenario.

In short: what are we supposed to be "reforming", why are we trying to do so, and what exactly is the issue with making the instructions true to current practice as opposed to perceived tradition? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 17:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is. It just hadn't been laid out yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are we really adding bureaucracy? In a nutshell, Tony's RfC [a] removes the current FA director, who hasn't regularly edited in quite some time, [b] renames "delegates" to "coordinators", [c] puts them in charge of their respective pages (FAC, FAR, TFA), and [d] directs them to consult with the community if replacements need to be named. That's all. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 17:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd echo Ed - it does seem like a fairly minimal change. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, as recently as Feb 11, 2013 this proposal would have been met with rancorous howling at the moon. So whatever the outcome, it is a significant step.PumpkinSky talk 18:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with David F. I think there does need to be a respected figure loosely in charge, & acting as final arbiter & court of appeal, & that now isn't Raul. Most of the obvious figures don't seem to be available, but I hope we will find someone eventually, at which point the matter is resolved as far as I'm concerned. But I have no knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes, & I know others are more aware of the work there. Johnbod (talk) 19:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't have bothered with any change at all, but if an editor in Raul's position does not edit in several months, without communication, then I am beginning to think we need to rejig things. Even just popping in for an edit or two now and then would have been ok, but not zero communication. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cas, we need more than a distant figure who pops in for the odd edit from time to time. We need someone with a real commitment to the FA process who is prepared where necessary to put time in, listen to the community, take initiatives and when required act with authority. Just one example: this whole discussion started because I pointed out the the free JSTOR access that was granted for 12 months last November ends in 4 months. This is a matter of considerable importance to editors engaged in developing featured articles; we don't know if or on what terms the access will be renewed. Somebody needs to be pushing the FA interest here – that person doesn't have to be called the "director" and doesn't have to be appointed for life, but we need someone in that position. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While I disagree that JSTOR access was or should be part of the director's job (it was something Raul did personally because he could, and anyone else can pick up that ball), and I disagree that Raul/Mark was "distant" (he was hands-off to the extent he had to be, which allowed him to be a neutral, uninvolved observer and arbiter when we needed that, in the event of recusals, disagreements, etc), I do agree that the FA process/community (which encompasses FAC, FAR and TFA) needs a director. I view it as unfortunate that Brian's JSTOR question resulted in the launch of two premature RFCs, when we have much to discuss before launching RFCs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I lack the energy or ability to participate much more in this discussion but then I probably participated enough I support Brian's view in its entirety.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is clear and simple: 1) Raul is AWOL and needs to go; all his continued status as "director" does is impede the process. 2) We need to eliminate the "dictator for life" nature of FA governance so that the situation we are in now doesn't happen again. All other things (i.e. JSTOR, etc.) are side issues. I have no particular agenda yet for the ultimate solution here, but the ideas of creating some form of accountable and term-limited leadership are heading in the right direction and the notions of simply replacing Raul with someone or some oligarchy that is equally unaccountable is going in the wrong direction. History is not terribly relevant, save for the last 12+ months when Raul has not been doing his job. Tony has mostly a good idea, but Psky points out its flaws, and the solution is probably in combining the best of both, but I am adamant in my view that the "director" model has failed WP and needs to be replaced along with its officeholder. Montanabw^(talk) 19:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two constants here

There are two constants in all this: Raul is gone so stopping pretending he's directing anything, and end the "director for life" meme. PumpkinSky talk 00:24, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry

If I have been a bit off the last couple of days I regret it. I am unfortunately having mood swings due to a medical issue. The waves are dampening down and I am nearly back to normal.Wehwalt (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Best wishes, hope all is well. - Dank (push to talk) 02:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks it isn't right now but will be fine--Wehwalt (talk) 10:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Best format for endnote citations?

What is the best format for manual endnotes? I want to start doing manual citations (not the templates). I really hate how long it takes to fill out those templates field by field...

Criteria that I am looking for (priority order):

1. Approximate the "cite templates".

2. I don't want article titles omitted like in a science journal.

3. Easy and fast.

4. Some published, "real" format like MLA, APA, AP, etc.

TCO (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do Chicago pretty easily—see South American dreadnought race, etc. There's a couple exceptions that I do, namely the inclusion of ISBNs and OCLCs, but it's pretty adaptable to Wikipedia. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 18:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do a hybrid MLA/wiki type style with author, date, page number inline, the rest written out really close to MLA (which is very streamlined now) in the references section. Whether books or on-line sources, I simply follow a consistent format. See Alps (not FA but shows a mix of books and online sources). Much much faster than citation templates - which I did at one time use. Victoria (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Format to be identical to the templates. Or else at least be consistent within the article, whatever you pick (I use Chicago in RL situations, mostly) However, the templates are actually not too tough to use once you start getting good at the interactive mode of reflinks. I'm no fan of squinting at the screen to add a zillion { and | and = whatevers, nor am I fond of the silly fill in the box form, but with interactive mode on reflinks, it does about 90% of it, you only occasionally have to go in manually when the metadata of a page doesn't provide what is needed, and in my case that's about equal to how many times I have to go in manually to fix my typos anyway... Montanabw^(talk) 23:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tried the Reflinks thing with Russell Saunders. Fail. It inserted # tags all over the article. And for the citation, it did give me an article title for the url, but other than that didn't do anything else (no date, periodical, etc.)

It only works for books, but have you taken a peak at the Wikipedia citation tool for Google Books? Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I"ve never seen it do that, ever. It works on all templates for me, though for hardcopy books I've never tried it. Montanabw^(talk) 00:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the "it" in "it only works for books" meant the Google Books tool, not Reflinks. I was offering another reffing tool to try out. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I put the sources in "References" as eg (from Gold glass):

Francis, Peter, Asia's Maritime Bead Trade: 300 B.C. to the Present, 2002, University of Hawaii Press, ISBN 082482332X, 9780824823320, google books
Grig, Lucy, "Portraits, Pontiffs and the Christianization of Fourth-Century Rome", Papers of the British School at Rome, Vol. 72, (2004), pp. 203–230, JSTOR

- and the citations in "Notes" as "Francis, 87" and "Grig, 220" etc. This way translates easily from the JSTOR & google books formats you can cut and paste. It also allows multiple cites in one note, which I do a lot. Citation templates are awful, not least because all hell breaks out when you rearrange the sequence of text, as you often need to do. Johnbod (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In what way do you find "all hell breaks out when you rearrange the sequence of text" when using templates? One of the reasons I took to the {{sfn}} family of templates was because it made slicing and dicing text easier for me. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Next nom

I would like to nominate Whaam! ASAP since I am shooting for the 9/28 50th Anniversary for WP:TFA. It would be great if you could promote Drowning Girl promptly or grant me leave to go ahead since it has 3 supports, image review and source review.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is surely a matter for the delegates, not for this talk? Brianboulton (talk) 08:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Am I suppose to ping them directly?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:55, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have 2.5 months, I guess I will just wait until it happens.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 62: / Line 62: @@
 *[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Koala/archive1]]. Source review pls. Cheers, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 07:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 :*Will do tomorrow if British Library has vols onsite, or on Saturday if they have to order them. [[User:Tim riley|Tim riley]] ([[User talk:Tim riley|talk]]) 13:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
+::*Thanks Tim, however here I wasn't so much concerned with a source spotcheck for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing (since the co-noms have been around FAC a while and had such spotchecks in the not-too-distant past) as a source review for formatting and general reliability (the sort of checks Brian and Nikki often make, like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules_in_Australian_service/archive1&diff=561377800&oldid=561364465 this]). Of course I have no prob with source spotchecks being carried out on as many articles as feasible, but I was more interested at the moment, if possible, in one for a first-time FAC nominator, i.e. Sega v. Accolade (above). Cheers, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 13:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 *[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Perseus (constellation)/archive1]]. Source review pls. Cheers, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 07:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 *[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Benjamin Britten/archive1‎]]. Image review pls. Cheers, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 12:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)