Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

Active alerts

Ned Scott

Stale

 – Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Ned Scott is making comments which breach our policies and guidance. [1], [2], [3], [4], I have tried to raise the matter with the user, but it is escalating the issue, User talk:Ned Scott#Civility and personal attacks. Hiding T 12:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologized for the edit summary one, and even stopped editing after I made it, realizing I had gotten to heated about it. The last one, [5], doesn't break Wikiquette, so I don't even know why you mention it. As for the other two, I'll agree they broke Wikiquette. I probably shouldn't have said the "fool" comment to you, Hidding, but I stand by my "bullshit" comment to Vassyana. I don't know what you think posting here will do about any of this. -- Ned Scott 12:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In the last one you state "Don't act stupid". That doesn't seem to assume good faith. I hope posting here will garner outside opinion on the issue. Hiding T 13:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I offer my observations and a suggestion. Vassyana is working on some policy debate which I won't get into, but which is clearly intense for several interested editors. Ned Scott I think has spoken in haste and realises it now. I am satisfied by his apology here and I think Hiding should be too, and not press this complaint further. To you Ned Scott I point out that certain words you have posted are uncivil and could be removed without any loss of the useful points you make. I suggest that you do exactly that. I don't see any policy to hinder one from applying WP:RPA to one's own posts, and to do so would certainly regain for you a high moral ground (and incidentally respect from me). Your good nature will doubtless guide you in this decision. Here is a specific list of the words that you surely can excise:

Bullshit. Thanks for making the situation worse, and sticking your nose in a situation you don't even understand.

Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting.

..you guys have your panties in a bind because..

Jebus people,..

You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period.

Don't act stupid, Percy, you know full well...

It's like you're one of those typo nazis... Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Cuddlyable3. These are the points I am trying to get across, but perhaps not doing so as well. I am indeed happy with the apology. All the best, Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to start a thread here regarding Ned Scott's recent comments but I see this one is open already. In the past three days, Ned has made comments like:

• 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "If you guys want to freak out because of some recent discussions on this particular talk page, then get a grip. Wikipedia is more than this talk page, and that section doesn't suddenly lose support because a hand full of Wikipedians have their panties in a bind."[6]
• 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "We owe it to the project to consider things beyond this talk page, and to not be so shallow that we flip out right away because of some recent discussion where some people got all pissy."[7]
• 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "Your interpretation that he can't start a section heading is moronic"[8]
• 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "And for the love of god, the entire point of his restriction was to make him take these issues to the talk page."[9]
• 06:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Jesus, what's wrong with you?" and "You have no clue about TTN, do you?"[10]
• 11:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm sorry you guys have your panties in a bind because there's some users who don't apply things from WP:NOT correctly, and misunderstand what it says. Jebus people, that's been a problem for every single WP:NOT entry"[11]
• 11:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false. Do you think the protecting admin gives a crap about the dispute?" and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[12]
• 11:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period."[13]
• 13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Let me repeat something, since you are having such a hard time understanding it" and "And on a side note, it is shameful the way you are campaigning to drive TTN off the project because of what amounts to a content dispute. Who's next? Will you be supporting a bogus block on me if it suits your needs?"[14]
• 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC): "You guys don't even know what you're talking about"[15]

I understand that Ned thinks TTN's recent block was completely unjustified and that Ned has a different interpretation than me of the restrictions imposed on TTN. And I understand that Ned supports keeping WP:PLOT in WP:NOT while I support its removal. I can understand it if he's frustrated. But I think comments like "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false." and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[16] are absolutely uncalled for and are a breach of the civility policy as well as the no personal attacks policy. In the past I have said I was happy to have Ned as a fellow editor and fellow human being, but he has lost all the respect I have for him with his latest remarks. --Pixelface (talk) 07:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note, many of these comments are already being dealt with above. I'm not sure we need to quote the full text of the remarks, I believe diffs are all that is necessary. Ned has already apologised above, so I think we can leave it there? Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Apologized to whom? --Pixelface (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    • To the community. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
      • And I stand by most of those above example comments you've listed, Pixel. Most of them are examples of frustrations, but are not necessarily uncivil. Regardless if you've lost all respect for me, I still have some respect for you. Life isn't so black and white that we have to hate someone just because of a few disputes. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I don't hate you. I said I no longer respect you. If you don't think those comments are uncivil, I don't know what to say. And the only thing black and white about this is you acting like Jekyll and Hyde. --Pixelface (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott I represent the community that you claim to have apologised to. The Wikipedia community can tolerate an occasional expression of "bullshit". It can not tolerate the collateral damage you are causing by sustained incivility viz. the examples we see above. Your intemperate speech deters people from joining a discussion where you take part. That, and not anyone's "hate" that you may imagine, will be the reason for likely administrative action to block you for a while from tainting Wikipedia further with your "frustrations". (I am not an administrator.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the lynch mob after User:TTN? I don't believe I would feel bad at all if I deterred someone from joining in and attacking a good editor. It really is shameful to try to drive someone off the project because of a content dispute, and that is something that should be said. -- Ned Scott 06:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No Ned, my post is about the cause stated of this Alert. I believe it makes us all feel bad when anyone turns a content disagreement into personal attacks. Most blocks are temporary and we welcome a blocked editor to return as a good editor. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're wrong (about me), but thank you for your concern. -- Ned Scott 22:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yuz Asaf

Stale

I posted worries about this page at fringe theories noticeboard. User:Dougweller came to help. Now a newly-created account User:NewYork10021 is throwing accusations at him. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links of where he has made such accusations. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User: Daimerej

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – to Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Daimerej appears to be User:Ewenss, who was banned for sock puppetry (he basically conceded it in the talk page of Trinity United Church of Christ. He is back again, and appears to be editing under that name and 74.233.86.145, as well as possibly 64.66.192.62. They're making identical edits, giving identical reasons. He has also behaved uncivilly on the AfD page of Joshua Packwood‎. Trilemma (talk) 22:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Any concerns you have about sockpuppetry should be voiced at Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets, or to the administrator's noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:MegX

Resolved

 – -warned editor. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This user reverted several edits I made to Led Zeppelin articles on the basis of "vandalism." As a glance at the edits in question will reveal, this charge was patently false. I reverted her edits, encouraging her to discuss the issue on each article's talk page before deleting my edits. Then I sent her this message:

Wikipedia is a community that depends crucially on effective communication between editors. My edits were in good-faith and not vandalism; your claim of "vandalism" was a means of evading communication as to what you found objectionable about my edits. If you believe my edits were inaccurate or unsourced (although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar), please start a discussion on the talk page as per wikipedia guidelines instead of inaccurately claiming vandalism.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

In response, she sent me the following message:

"although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar" That is a patently false statement. Courts of law use musicologists to determine if a song sounds similar in structure to another song. Neither Traffic or Jake Holmes has taken the issue to court, therefore it is not fact. Wikipedia deals with facts not opinions. I have no intention on having a discussion with you because I believe by your edit history to be a sockpuppet. Don't deny it. MegX (talk) 00:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What is important to note is that she made another groundless claim, that I was a sockpuppet, after her earlier lie that my edits were "vandalism" was exposed (again, this is all evident in the talkpages of the various articles.

It is appalling to me that respected editors within this community have become so uncivil and impolite. At no point did MegX assume my edits were in good-faith; rather, she disagreed with a claim I didn't even make in my edits (that these similarities in Led Zeppelin songs were legally actionable) and made personal attacks against me.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 08:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

[is not a publisher of original thought] and [is not a soapbox]. Hearsay and opinion is not fact. You are passing off opinion as fact. At no point has your claims of plagiarism been tested in a court of law. Issues of copyright are determined in courts of law, not pages of an encyclopaedia. Please desist from passing of opinion as fact. MegX (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

MegX is correct here. Injecting unverifiable original research and opinion is the opposite of what Wikipedia is based on. In the case of Led Zeppelin, if there is some sort of documented court settlement regarding songwriting then that can be introduced as long as the proper references are in place. If there is no court settlement and no supoorting documentation then the content is personal pov and has no place on Wikipedia. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 03:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Requiring a documented court settlement is very strict. There are published reviews of popular music which can be sourced, if found. I have not listened to the songs concerned; has anyone made an accusation of plagiarism? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No. it's the original editor's personal pov. Even their added text is very "8th grade book report" style in trying to push their opinion into several articles without any supporting/verifiable/reliable sources. Led Zeppelin have a small number of court settlements connected to certain recorded tracks. And these are all documented in the appropriate Wikipedia articles with references. Most of the cases stem from lyrical similarities and not music. All of these other claims are just poorly written original research based on editor POV. And these contributions have been removed, and rightly so, by several editors trying to block any POV/OR from these articles.

I agree with the positions of User:Anger22 and User:MegX. Those songs that have already been covered in decades-old out-of-court settlements have already been well documented elsewhere. That's not in dispute here. What editor User:Allon Fambrizzi was doing was adding personal opinion/original research on other songs that have never been subject to a court case, so of course there would be no court documents on these. I have accessed online peer reviewed journals on popular music at our university the last hour and have not found any claims that back up some of the additions made by User:Allon Fambrizzi. HelenWatt (talk) 23:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I would just point out that substantive disagreement with edits does not justify MegX's earlier claims that I am a "sockpuppet" engaged in "vandalism." I did attempt to source these edits. And most of these edits were simply elaborating on thoughts that were already in the article. MegX was wrong to engage in unsubstantiated personal attacks, and should be reprimanded for doing that. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I can't argue with MegX's bizarre claims that I am utilizing "hearsay" and am not citing legal opinions (these standards obviously have never been applied to Wikipedia articles in the past!). I still maintain my original position that these edits improved the articles. I would encourage people to listen to the songs I have mentioned in the articles; this was not original research but rather, in most cases, elaborations on statements elsewhere in the articles. The unfortunate thing is that I likely would have to start editing under a different name if I wished to contribute to Wikipedia in the future as MegX has been blanket-reverting my edits on the basis of the fact that this screen name made the edits, without first establishing a community consensus on the talk pages of the respective articles. MegX has not gone through the proper procedures for settling disagreement on Wikipedia; the fact that she apparently has unlimited time to blanket-revert edits she doesn't like apparently wins out over reasoned discussion. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I would further encourage people to read the following post I made on MegX's talk page, which she has now deleted (it is the last one): [17]. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

MegX, please keep the following in mind in the future. If you feel that an individual is engaging in vandalism repeatedly (deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia), then please make your concerns known at Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. Similarly, if you feel that an individual is engaging in Sock-puppetry, then as the policy states, please make your concerns known at Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets. Remember, it is unacceptable for an editor to continually accuse another of egregious misbehavior in an attempt to besmirch their reputation. Concerns should be brought up in the appropriate forums. We're here to deal with impolite or difficult communications - not content issues. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:OhanaUnited uncivility

In this post User:OhanaUnited , who is administrator on Wikipedia writes about me "The image he attempted to replace with the already-featured is his own creation. Although there's no rule against being the nominator of your own image, but my gut feeling tells me he's trying to discredit someone else's picture so that his can showcase his image here. Also, at that time, his reason for demotion is "because I like this image better." These statements are false to say the least. I possibly could not try to discredit someone else's picture because both pictures in question were taken by me and I believe I have the right of the creator of the images like one on my own pictures better than the other of my own pictures. Let's say that User:OhanaUnited has missed the point. Anybody could be mistaken. Well user:catch-22 pointed his mistake out to User:OhanaUnited , but User:OhanaUnited has never bothered to remove his false accusations and never responded to user:catch-22. At that point I assume that comments made by User:OhanaUnited were made in a bad faith. I'd also like to point out that administrator OhanaUnited has deleted my polite message from his talk page with the edit summary: cleaning out some garbage, which IMO is more than uncivil and more than impolite. IMO administrator OhanaUnited should remove his false accusations from this post, should be issued a warning about his uncivilty and should be considered for de-adminship. BTW I would have notified OhanaUnited about me filing this alert, but I am afraid I cannot do it because he told me that he that his "gut feeling" told him he should "ignore me from now on".He even protected his talk page for few days. It seems to me that OhanaUnited relies on his "gut feeling" instead of relaing on the common sense. Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything incivil or impolite here, and certainly nothing to suggest that his adminship is in question. He's within his rights to remove comments from his talk page, so you shouldn't be upset by that. It was polite of him to state that he has an intention of ignoring you, and gave a reason, rather than ignoring you entirely. While you may disagree, it's his choice. I'm not clear about the initial dispute concerning some image, so I won't comment on that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for your respond, Ncmvocalist. I'm afraid it was not helpful at all and I'm afraid you are not clear in anything from my initial post. Would you agree, if I say that removing message with edit summary cleaning out some garbage does not consider to be civil or/and polite? Would you agree, if I say that admin, who's protecting his own talk page uses his admin rights with the wrong purpose? Would you agree that, if he falsely blamed me in "trying to discredit someone else's picture" while talking about my own picture should at least remove his false statement from post? I also doubt that an admin, who could say he would ignore a user with absolutely no reason could be a good admin. Oh and btw IMO calling my post noise does not consider to be civil and polite either. May I please ask you,Ncmvocalist, if you are sure you are in the right place? --Mbz1 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• When I made the post at that page I hoped for the understanding. Instead I found harassment, and what was even much worse - stupidity. Indeed as Euripides said: "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish" or like Martin Luther King Jr said: "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."I guess "Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege". Do you like the quote, User:Ncmvocalist. Sorry,I forgot you were going to ignore me. As Jewish Proverb says: "Don't approach a goat from the front, a horse from the back, or a fool from any side." I guess I'll let it go now. I am really tiered (=_=) to fight with windmills (read "to fight for the common sense on Wikipedia") --Mbz1 (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, at last you've got something right (cannot believe it), Ncmvocalist,I want to get blocked. By the way may I please wish you and a friend of yours OhanaUnited to continue ignoring me. You're doing just great with that so far! And this was my last post here. From now on I am going to ignore both of you.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Fringe theory, soap box, forum, incivility

Resolved

 – -warned editor Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I was redirected here from the fringe theory notice board after posting a complaint about a certain editer who has broke about half a dozen policies not to mention the fact that he has some rather backward views. To get the full story as i have documented it please follow this link. I would appreciate your help on this, he has caused at least one editer I know well a lot of bother. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 19:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links or diffs to the incivility. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if you meant this or not, but "backward views" aren't a problem, as long as the editor doesn't introduce poorly referenced, POV material in the article space or use the talk pages as a soapbox to discuss things unrelated to improving the article. Whether or not the person's views are "backward" is, by itself, irrelevant. -kotra (talk) 04:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Here the editer "CadenS" is promoting a fringe theory on talk pages that is actually quite offensive. He calls it the "Homosexual Agenda", which is a right wing way of saying "gays are plotting against the world". I have listed just ten examples below, there are many many more edits like this by the user. He called one user who is a member of the LGBT community "Heterophobic" for not agreeing with him. I know that the editer was very offended by the comment. Now being conservative and christain is fine with me, but this is going too far, i see these unhealthy ideas spouted on Conservapedia and honestly its dangerous.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 - im guessing "this" means homosexuality? 11 - and again, Caden has found another example of the "Homosexual Agenda", running wild in wikipedia

Sorry i couldnt get back to you sooner, my internet connection went down. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 15:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Caden has continued the dispute here. Accusing bookkeeper of starting a hate campaign against him. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 16:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Infact, this isnt a campaign against Caden, oh no, much worse. Its a campaign against heterosexuality seen here. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 16:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop accusing me of "promoting a fringe theory", or of "soap boxing", or of being "anti gay", or of "prejudice" or all the other negative things you are accusing me of. I am doing no such thing. I never said "gays are plotting against the world", so please do not put words into my mouth. Please stop this nonsense of yours. I find what you are doing highly offensive and consider it a personal attack towards me. CadenS (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• I've given him a warning and explained what was wrong with his conduct. If it continues, or he does not agree to comply with policy, let me know. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I will, prejudice doesnt die quickly so i dont think it will be long before i return, sadly. --Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 17:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop. Why are you doing this to me? Do you hate me that much? You don't even know me and we have never spoken before. Please stop making these false accusations about me. I do not appreciate it. Please leave me be in peace. CadenS (talk) 22:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think these comments made by an administrater best sum up how tired we are with your behaviour. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 00:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Those comments were not appropriate. I found them personally offensive. As far as that religion bit, I have no idea where he's getting that from. Could you please leave me alone and please stop wiki-stalking me from one talk page to another. I don't understand what you are trying to do here. But I don't like it. CadenS (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The same comment was posted on [18] WhisperToMe (talk) 04:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. He also posted the same comments on User_talk:Petebertine's talk page and again on User_talk:Ncmvocalist's talk page CadenS (talk) 11:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted, i sent it to all the people he went complaining to, he went to a number of editers and admins moaning about me. I thought that link best summed up my side of the story. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 14:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

CadenS apologized (many times) and Realist2 acknowledged some error on his/her own part, so this issue should be resolved by now. Let's not beat a dead horse here. Forgive and forget would be good advice to follow. -kotra (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks and deletion of talk page postings

Thanks to whichever volunteers handle issues at this page, I hope you find your work rewarding.

I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now. Mainly I've ignored it, and stuck to answering nit-picking challenges and Wikilawyering. Eventually, I worked out it was trolling of some kind and I shouldn't feed it. I gave notice of withdrawing from discussion and explained why.

Now, however, this user is actually insisting on removing a reply I have given as part of a very long standing discussion to another user, who is currently absent. I have given warnings and finally a 3RR warning. Personally, I'd rather the user just chooses to be more civil, and allow things that irk him to stand; but how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies? Or am I to understand I can edit talk pages as well as articles and delete comments I think are inappropriate?

It seems to me we need to be even more generous in what we allow in talk pages than we do in articles. Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with? Does this user have the right to remove my comment here?

Sorry to trouble you, but I've spent a long time talking an important issue through with User:Andowney and we actually seem to be getting to the end of it at last. But now Ilkali has deleted my reply. :( Alastair Haines (talk) 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, you and perhaps User:Andyowney are misusing the talk page: [[WP:TALK}} "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." You've written " Asking questions and challenging human doctrines derived from revelation, not revelation themselves, is a great way to push oneself to depending more heavily on scripture, prayer, obedience and love. To depend on scripture is to depend on God (if we are correct to believe God is there and that he has spoken). Although I believe there is only one truth, and although I believe scripture informs us of much regarding gender, I think the processes are as important as the results. As you say, now it is "through a glass darkly" then it will be "face to face".But what do we say at Wiki? Christian view: "through a glass darkly" (Paul as understood by AH and AD)? I think here we must simply place the dark understanding of the scholars to this point, and leave the question quickly. If people want to know more, they should go to church and join the collective struggle to wrestle for as much grace of revelation as we can find as we turn to God's word together." That looks more like a sermon than using it as "a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article". If I were active on that page, I'd probably remove that myself.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You are overlooking the point. I say: But what do we say at Wiki?. You say: That looks more like a sermon. What does? The second half of the last sentence. Were you to remove on such grounds, and then repeat that after objection. I would report you for uncivil and biased editing. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow the links, and for reading the disputed comment. If the last sentence is the only objection, I will count your voice as agreeing with retaining the post. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now". Your first reply when I urged you not to use the talk page as a forum: "If you can't follow the discussion, feel free to stay out of it Ilkali". Do you consider that a civil response?

"Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with?". Where would we be if people did not have the right to delete inappropriate talk page posts? This is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. As has been confirmed here, you were misusing the talk page. WP:TALK explicitly authorises the removal of off-topic posts.

"how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies?". You can take it to his talk page, as I urged you from the beginning. What exactly is your problem with this recourse? Why are you refusing to even consider it? Ilkali (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

HELP!!!!! user:Toobills and user:RC&RB incivility, libel and harassment

Both have continually been uncivil, have posted libel/defamation of others (and myself) on Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Please look in the Revision history of Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Here:diff1; Here: diff2; Here:diff3 Here:diff4; Here: diff5 Here: diff6 And there are a few more that I am leaving out. I've tried to be as civil as possible, to no avail. This has led to continued insults and threats and it seems to be escalating. This has continued from e-mails sent to me personally at a prior date, threatening me from post user:Toobills and user:RC&RB stating that that any "posts I make at Wikipedia have to be approved by user:Toobills first". Now on here at Wikipedia, they are attempting to follow through with harassment, namecalling and general incivility. I fear it will turn into vandalism.

Jeff,

I hope I am posting, and responding in the correct place.

The incivility began when Russ Ebert posted a response to me that he himself admittedly deleted. He later admits to you: "he is responsible for a lot of what went on there, and I would have prevented it and I regret it", In addition his scolding, public post, to someone who is significantly his senior, warning them to "behave themselves" is rude, and absolutely began the deterioration of this debate. Even I was surprised at his inappropriate, and disrespectful behavior. It seems now that he realizes that he has behaved inappropriately, as evidenced by his explanation of his lazines, and censorship of the "debate". My only regret is stating outright that he is a Blowhard, and a coward. It was wrong and admittedly, I allowed my anger and frustration at his unwillingness to abide by the parameters of the discussion page. owever, my frustration began and continued because Russ is refusing to debate this topic, and acknowledge any other view contrary to his own speculative research. If he did he may have to admit he's incorrect. I apologize for my frustrations, however I believe from your initial response to this you can understand where it came from. A scholarly debate should not be edited, and the discussion shouldn't be monopolized, and deleted. I will absolutely refrain from name calling and personal attacks.

I have never threatened Russ, nor has anyone else. If you would like have him provide you evidence of my threats. His claims are outright lies. If he chooses to make these allegations he should back them up with proven facts.-Bill

Mekugi (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Mekugi -- where are the personal attacks and insults? In the diffs you have provided, all I see is that the other users have written a very long discussion of the points in contention (which I don't understand at all, so you'll have to bear with me), and you reverted their changes. I think your reversion was inappropriate, unless there are personal attacks I did not see. The users in question did say several times that they thought you were incorrect, but I do not see the personal attacks. Could you help me out by saying what "insults" and "threats" you are specifically objecting to? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The first post, DIF1 & DIFF2 is about libel/defamation aimed at me.Namely incivil statements like:

"Or do you speak for a small faction in Tokyo, headed by a former low graded "student" of Shitama Sensei?"

The low graded student is my teacher in the martial art. I dunno, but calling someone low-graded when they are of a higher grade than the person posting is rather rude, and continually calling me that throughout the article has no point. How does that better the article? It seems wholly as an attack on me. Or that is to say, it is clearly an attack on me and my group in Tokyo, not about the content of the article.

Nothing in [:diff1 is about the article itself, but about me being low graded, not understanding anything he's saying. I am not sure how that contributes to civility either.

Jeff,

How is that question libel or defammatory? He made a condescending statement about "this not being an issue over here", (meaning Japan). I'm stating first hand, (then and now) that he is incorrect. His position makes an incorrect assumption based on spaeculative research conclusions. Again, he was the first to throw out the sarcasm, which I addressed in my response. rather than accept or discuss athe difference, he condescendingly chose to "assure me" that he knows better. I believe that Russ likes to attack without being attacked in return. The second part of the statement about "a group headed by a former low graded student of Shitama Sensei", is again a fact. Usuki is no longer a student of Shitama Sensei. His web page link in fact has been deleted from Shitama Sensei's web site for cause. The truth is, Russ's teacher is in fact the same grade as I am. He is not my senior, and I in fact consider myself and his teacher low graded students, however I am significantly senior, and more experienced than Russ. I'm sorry but credibility matters to a debate. Russ's speculative conclusions are inappropriate and his behavior is rude coming from a self proclaimed expert, and someone in his position as a very junior graded student. This again is NOT a personal attack but stating what should be obvious.

It's tough to sort through, I know, but if you look back it's a tyraid responses to this post: diff7 where I simply outlined the information, the rest is just an attack on my character. This was followed by a tyraid of other posts and really I am trying to be polite about it because really, this is defamation to me, my group and character. IMHO, there is no reason to get personal or make rude, incivil statements over something so small.

Jeff,

Again Russ assumes that an incorrect speculative conclusion is a small thing. he is just wrong. It's difficult for him to accept it. But more importantly it's his behavior that is inappropriate. I just stated facts that I can substantiate. he won't address them because it's has become part of his con.

Also there are statements regarding my research (pulling test out of books and authentic ancient documents and not limited to his "original research"- which is not allowed here) and arguing his points with personal research, creating a hostile environment. I am going to try to just post a few of the incivility diffs here:

diff8

"This is consistent with the behavior of your low graded group in Tokyo.

Jeff,

Russ is not the only person making these contributions that are inappropriate from such a low graded student. So in fact, his not accepting someone who is significantly his senios advice to behave appropriately is consisitent with his group in Tokyo. thier are countless other examples that have no place in your attemt to mediate.

This is why your web site has been removed from the Sekiryukan web page for cause.

Jeff,

This is a fact.

Furthermore, I'm not surprised, as I have a collection of incorrect online statements, and outright lies you have posted over the years."

Jeff,

I have numerous statements that I can present as evidence. I asked Russ if he would like to debate them. He never replied and just deleted the discussion as you know. For example, in another online forum hruss and fellow low graded student of his, who claims a higher grade than he was awarded, (that doesn't even exist in Sosuishi ryu), claim that Shitama Sense conducted Senbondori, (a ritual test of 1000 throws) in Tokyo of which they participated in and one was even injured. This never happened, as the ONLY place Senbondori has been conducted outside of Shitama Sensei's dojo in Fukuoka was in New York. I never brought it up. Russ knows it's an outright lie, I just eluded to it and many others. Again, this is another outright lie by a low graded group in Tokyo. I'm sorry, but that' not an attack, just a fact. You can see this evidenced on Shitama Sensei's web site if you doubt my correction to his lies. I'm sorry credibility, and the truth matter.

as for calling me a liar, low graded and in making false statements, etc. I am stumped to see where any of it applies to the article in question or how it betters the article, but in fact is an attack on me and my group in Tokyo.

Jeff,

It does matter because my assertion from the beginning is that his innaproppriate, speculative conclusions contradict Shitama Sensei's position on this matter. Shitama Sensei is the 16th inheritor of Sosuishi ryu. He IS Sosuishi ryu, and the discussion is about the name. Shitama Sensei has stated first hand when asked directly this question and about what Russ claims, His response was the name of the ryu is Sosuishi ryu, not any other derivation, as those are components of the ryu. My position as a higher graded student, and direct student of Shitama Sensei is to reiterate Shitama Sensei's position. How can that be disputed? His assertions are speculative, and incorrectly assume former headmasters intent as he attemts to uncover some "hidden treasure" that just isn't there. How can he correctly interpret someones intent and the context and texture of thier writings? Shitama Sensei is the only person that knows first hand his fathers intent. Shitama Sensei speaks Japanese. Why would his position be challenged by a low non- japanese graded practitioner? Without knowing anything about the discipline, doesn't this strike you as being innappropriate? I'm sure by your initial response it does, however I can assure you that his actions in this entire manner are childlike to say the least. Again, not an attack, but children brag and behave like experts in an unhumble manner. This is what russ is doing.

This stands out:

You are a fraud, and just another blow-hard coward behind a keyboard.

Being called a fraud, blow hard. I seriously fail to see how that relates to the article.

Jeff,

This was my last post, (of many) after Russ deleted not only my discussion with him numerous times, he deleted the post of another studentt who is also his senior. Conveniently he left his own post on the board. My frustration led to my violating the rules, and more importantly inappropriate name calling. I apologize for letting my frustrations get the best of my own manners. I will not make the same mistake twice.

And this, from the same Diff:

This is what happens when low graded students are left on their own, without correct guidance from a qualified Sensei.

He's talking about me.

It’s endemic in the martial arts, and it’s reflective in your inappropriate behavior.

I am not sure how my behavior is inappropriate, since he is not talking about the removal of the psosts, but to posting on Wikipedia at all.

We have allowed you to continue your childish, inappropriate, behavior to continue for years. You sit and pontificate as if you have some hidden knowledge, or expertise.

I'm childish....get the feeling that this is focused on my character, and not the article?

Jeff,

Russ's behavior here has been childish. He doesn't want to hear another side, the correct side by those who challenge his self created expertise, and he throws a tantrum and deletes the discussion, except his own post. I stated the facts in this manner. I tried, as his senior to correct him and mentor him as is my place. If children are left on thier own without proper guidance, they do the wrong thing. I believe this is the case with Russ. It's not an attack, it's a conclusion that has been evidenced by his behavior and refusal to accept another opinion. If he accepted my opinion, he would have to assume his conclusion is incorrect. I don't think Russ can admit that there is a possibility he doesn't understand as much as he thinks he does. His behavior is relevant to the article. The article is innacurate in several places. His character won't allow him to discuss a contrary opinion. I'm sorry, again the truth, and character and credibility matter in research.

You post video demonstrations of yourself that look ridiculous, and display the waza consistent with a beginner, while trying to pass yourself off as some sort of highly graded expert. We have attempted to correct you privately on numerous occasions.

Again, this is about me, not the article.

Jeff,

This is the truth. he is a beginner as is evidenced by his physical technique, his grade, and the speculative conclusions his biased research has resulted in. He is trying to pass himself off as an expert, of which I can assure you he is not.

Sorry to sound like a broken record here(skipping DVD nowadays) but I am unceratin of how any of this pertains to the article in question. They are talking specifically about me, my character and re-iterating threats/demands sent to me in private emails just keep me from writing here. This is all because I have information they do not, resources they do not, all from third or second party sources (as per wiki guidelines).

Jeff,

Again I am merely stating Shitama Sensei's position, the 16th Headmaster. Does he assert that he's such an expert that he knows more than Shitam Sensei? I think he is. In addition where are the threats we are making?

So, I this is the gist of it: I try to post a response to the wording of the name, with reasoning. I then get a tyraid aimed at my legitimacy, not the legitimacy of the argument, but aimed at me.

Jeff,

Incorrect, as he refuses to accept it is not his place as a low graded student to be claiming anything. That is a huge part of this debate. Thier is no argument as he continues to delete any other view, and never addresses any contrary points when they are made.

Most of the prepositions in the first DIFFS are directed at me, thus the conclusion that I come to is that I am the subject of the arguement, not the material I am posting. Then, I try to keep it civil by removing the post, which was aimed at me. Then, I re-post with more information, citing a docuemnt. Another tyraid is aimed at my character (I'm too low, I am not high enough, I need to be something special to write here).

Jeff,

Again, another incorrect conclusion. They are intertwined as it is not his place to challenge Shitama Sensei, and despite his archeological finds, he is no position to interpret context and intent of headmasters that are deceased. Does he know more than the 16th inheritor, Shitama Sensei does? I am only asserting his position on the matter as is evidenced on Shitama Sensei's own web site.

I remove it and post some guidelines to help smooth things out. Then, another post is made calling me a fraud, attacking my character AGAIN. So my conlcusion is that it seems like the posts are not about the article, or the material, by a hostile attack on my character and the belittling of my ability to research.

Jeff,

The guidleines he posted he violated first!!! This was after he altered or omitted any other view contrary to his own.

BTW Jay, thanks for you patience with me here....just learning the ropes. :) Mekugi (talk) 10:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. I appreciate you posting the diffs originally, but they were so long I didn't see the personal attacks. The "fraud" and "blow-hard" comments are highly inappropriate. Many of the other comments are really pushing it. I will warn the user(s) in question, and we'll go from there. --Jaysweet (talk) 12:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeff,

Again, if you look back he began the vitriol and the sarcasm. He wants to attack without being challenged or attacked in return. This is what promted my comment about his cowardly behavior. Again, I apologize, and will not resort to name calling again, regardless of my frustrations with his behavior.

Mekugi -- one concern I have is that you have been completely reverting comments made by these other users. I recognize that part of this is because of what you perceive as personal attacks. However, blanking the entire comment, particularly when it is several paragraphs along, is a pretty drastic measure, and may serve to stifle debate.

From reading Bill's comments in more detail, it appears that while a number of his comments have been in regards to you, he also had a number of points (the area is too specialized to know if they are legitimate or not) regarding the actual article content. You guys need to find some way to work those out... --Jaysweet (talk) 13:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I do realize that and will be more careful in the future, for sure. I realize that I am responsible for a lot that went on there and I would have prevented it and I regret it. That, to me is against the ideals of Wikipedia IMHO- to make the articles better for everyone. I'm starting to get the gist of debate on here on the discussion pages, so it's part of my acumen I intend to better while editing here. I originally went in with some caution and started to edit his intitial comment, but there was just so much stuff there it was impossible to sort. Without any explanation other than a "please behave yourself" comment, I erased it. On thinking about it I thought that was too rough and removed my response. Instead of re-vamping the whole thing I let laziness take over, and I just thought it would be better if I posted my info on the subject in hopes that he would rethink his position, thus start over (he did in a way, but it made him angry). I should have known better to do that but I went ahead anyway. I need to be more careful as these types of issues are touchy, and it's not right to censor anyone (I don't want that, I would not want anyone to do that to me). With the final user:RC&RB post, it was small enough to edit out the personal comments and get to the question, so I did that. But, it was too late by that point.

Anyway, thanks for your help. I appreciate your time and effort.

Jeff,

My suggestion is this. Dennis Fink Sensei is Menkyo Kaiden, and Shitama Sensei's senior representative in Sosuishi ryu. He is also fluent in english and has discussed this matter directly with Shitama Sensei. I submit that he is an expert on Sosuishi ryu and can assit you in mediating this debate since you are having a difficult time sifting through the specialized information here regarding the discipline.

Again, i apologize for reverting to the name calling when I was censored and attacked. My frustration led to bad manners and it won't happen again on this forum.

Sincerely,

Bill Williams

---

Comment by Randy Cantonwine

The incivility was started by "Mekugi" here:

"Furthermore, I feel it is safe to believe that this is regarded as a very low-brow subject of argument by Shitama sensei and a cavil of people outside of Japan

The statement is insulting, subjective and incorrect. This was followed by Mekugi deleting all opposing views. As for what is (or is not) uncivil, perhaps Mr Williams should have said that Mekugi is "academically dishonest" when he deletes opposing views instead of "cowardly" ..... changing the label doesn't make Mekugi's actions appropriate.

Mekugi has been around since the mid 80s.... I have known him since he was a teenager. However, time alone does not make someone an expert, particularly time in dissenting fringe groups and now a splinter group of a modern offshoot.

I made the comment below: Sosuishi-Ryu is a living art. One does not need to translate scrolls or conduct an archeological dig to find out what it is called. The name of the ryu is whatever Shitama Sensei decides to call it. It is HIS familial ryu. As for your analysis of the various scrolls etc., I am confident that Shitama Sensei can read Japanese pretty well. He is also able to interpret nuance and context to determine the writer's intent. He has been asked directly about this question. He disagrees with you.

As students of Sosuishi-ryu, we are Shitama Sensei’s guests. We should act that way. Randy Cantonwine

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:S%C5%8Dsuishi-ry%C5%AB"

Mekugi deleted it, then restored it, edited down to: "Sosuishi-Ryu is a living art. One does not need to translate scrolls or conduct an archeological dig to find out what it is called. The name of the ryu is whatever Shitama Sensei decides to call it. It is HIS familial ryu. As for your analysis of the various scrolls etc., I am confident that Shitama Sensei can read Japanese pretty well. He is also able to interpret nuance and context to determine the writer's intent. RC&RB (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

and Mekugi added this comment "RC&RB" :-) Okay...let me get this straight. You are saying that the name "Sosuishi ryu Jujutsu" is one that Shitama chooses to use today, in the present, correct? Does the article not reflect that? "

No.... I am saying that Shitama Sensei can read old scrolls (including those that are his family heirlooms)and the book that he commissioned. He does not need a junior student like Ebert to "correct" him. The correct name is "Sosuishi-Ryu"...period.

Randy Cantonwine

---

Consistent bully-boy tactics can be found all over the TALK portion of this article by TooBills. It ranges from condescending talk downs to downright insults. The article itself is academically, flawless. The Bibliography is genuine, with various references used throughout, albeit most are written in their original Japanese.

The only thing being attacked on that article appears to be it's original author, Mekugi. It attacks him personally, his credibility and as a researcher. I see no debate on the contents of the article whatsoever. The author has studied the system since 1985. That is twenty-three years more or less. His teacher, Usuki Yoshihiko has been studying the system since 1965. With this in mind there is more than enough academic credibility.

Below are examples of inappropriate behavior that are simply not germaine to the article in any way, shape or form.

"WRONG! Like many other conclusions you have drawn you are incorrect. Like most junior graded students you have limited access and subsequent knowledge and understanding of the ryu. As you know this is my biggest problem with you making these assertions based on your limited experience. It’s why we tell children that sometimes its better keep their mouth shut and be thought of as ignorant, than open it up publicly and confirm everyone’s suspicions."

"You are a fraud, and just another blow-hard coward behind a keyboard. You refuse to even acknowledge another view, even from those who are significantly your senior and have more experience and knowledge regarding the topic. You look childish and will subsequently remain ignorant."

"Here it is...get ready to edit what you want out of it you coward."

"In a scholarly debate their usually exists another objective party so for me, it’s beginning to be like trying to reason with a four year old. I also realize my post is archived, (as is your disrespectful reply)"

To put it succinctly, there is a difference here between Mekugi's posts and TooBills' posts. One tries to be civil and debates in an academic manner. The other hurls insults and doesn't really show any academic proof, yet doesn't attack the veracity or contents of the article, only the author and his character.

Most of this article's information was drawn from researched academic resources in the bibliography, a number of which were actually sanctioned by the headmaster of this Cultural tradition. In addition to that a number of interviews with senior students of the system.

[| diff1

[| diff2

Kogusoku (talk) 17:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Argh, can you guys please keep your comments succinct and well-formatted, and put all new comments at the end of the discussion, so people can actually follow the conversation? Geesh...

I was able to follow some of what RC&RB said. Randy, you claim Meguki has deleted content that did not contain personal attacks. Do you have a diff you could provide which shows this behavior? I saw Meguki was a little heavy-handed in deleting comments that he felt contained personal attacks, and I warned him and he agreed. I don't see anythign more serious than that...?

Meguki, the "low-brow" comment was probably slightly out of line. Try and watch that sort of thing in the future. Thanks. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Jay:

My comments below were my first ever on Wikipedia. They were deleted without comment by Mekugi. The quoted portion at the beginning is Mekugi's statement from 10/17/2007.

Snip & Paste "No one wants to be involved in an edit war. They need to be talked out....that means discussed here....." Unless you have an opposing view, in which case "Mekugi" will delete your entry. Anyone interested in this topic should go to the history tab and read the comments by Bill Williams that Russ has removed.

Russ:

You are the one who chose to have this discussion in a public forum. Apparently, your intent is that only your views should be shown. In your attempt to justify deleting Mr. Williams' post, you said that it was "angry". That is your subjective opinion. He did not insult you personally, nor did he delete your post refering to him as "low brow".

Mr Williams would never just take it upon himself to address this situation. He is an official representative of Sosuishi-Ryu. He is also your senior (by FAR). This article (and other items that you are involved in on the web) is considered to be a problem by senior members in America and over "there in Japan".

Sosuishi-Ryu is a living art. One does not need to translate scrolls or conduct an archeological dig to find out what it is called. The name of the ryu is whatever Shitama Sensei decides to call it. It is HIS familial ryu. As for your analysis of the various scrolls etc., I am confident that Shitama Sensei can read Japanese pretty well. He is also able to interpret nuance and context to determine the writer's intent. He has been asked directly about this question. He disagrees with you.

As students of Sosuishi-ryu, we are Shitama Sensei’s guests. We should act that way. Randy Cantonwine SNIP Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:S%C5%8Dsuishi-ry%C5%AB"

Mekugi is accusing me of "harassment, namecalling and general incivility" and "HELP!!!!!......user:RC&RB incivility, libel and harassment" I don't see it. What I see is Mekugi deleting any viewpoint other than his own. The false accusation that he has charged me with is a further attempt to suppress any opposing view.

Question: Would it be considered uncivil if I were to suggest that Mekugi's false accusation amounts to "incivility, libel and harassment"? Do I need to stick to saying that Mejugi is making false accusations, or can I use the liar word? Just curious. This was my first experience with Wikipedia. It certainly wasn't good.

Best,

Randy Cantonwine RC&RB (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Jay, I reposted this at the end of the page so it won't be missed, although it appears in the middle of the above text (easy to get lost at this point).

You wrote:

Meguki, the "low-brow" comment was probably slightly out of line. Try and watch that sort of thing in the future. Thanks. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't intending that comment to be aimed anyone personally...it was supposed to be regarding the subject of the discussion at that point, which was the issue of "name" of the school. I thought it was very straight-forward when I wrote it, but I guess it could be taken the wrong way. I'll be more careful to outline what I mean in the future. Sorry for all of the hassle. :(

Mekugi (talk) 09:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Conclusions

Randy - I would indeed avoid using the word "liar" -- it just tends to escalate things. The old adage to "comment on the edits, not the editors" applies here. It is fine to say that the accusations are false (commenting on the edits), but to call the editor a liar is something you don't want to take lightly. Not to say it's always inappropriate, but it doesn't really serve to help things most of the time, and it definitely tends to make people more angry.

If it will help, I can comment on my perception of the veracity of the various accusations:

Now that I have examined the situation more closely, I definitely do not see harassment here from the Bill/Randy side. If anybody is engaging in harassment, it is Mekugi, who appears to have a pet issue that he will not let die down. I have not yet decided whether there is merit to Mekugi's issue (I will need to examine his sources first), so he may have had a reason for this campaign after all -- or maybe not. But it seems clear Randy and Bill just want to be left alone, so I see no harassment.

"Libel" is a very strong word, and I would prefer if people do not use it lightly, particularly as it can be a prelude to legal threats, which are strictly prohibited on Wikipedia under any circumstances. However, I would recommend to Randy and Bill to refrain from focusing too much on Mekugi's alleged status as a "junior student," at least on Wikipedia. Here's the problem: You two say Mekugi is a junior student, he says he's not, and there's no way for me (or other uninvolved editors) to know the difference. So it doesn't do any good to say so, and since there is disagreement it can come across as insulting and dismissive of Mekugi's opinions. For better or worse, Wikipedia has an extreme egalitarian viewpoint -- a renowned scholar and a junior high kid are, in theory, starting from the same level playing field, as long as both provide verifiable reliable sources and obey other Wikipedia rules and regulations. In any case, I already mentioned this to you guys, and you seem to be avoiding those characterizations for the time being, and I thank you for that.

As far as incivility... Well, I don't think either side has crossed the line where it is sanctionable, but I'm not really happy with the level of discourse at the talk page in question, at least not by the time I got there. Ten-paragraph diatribes that call into question the other side's capability to understand the information in question, well, those don't do anybody any favors. Again, though, it seems both sides are a bit calmer now and I commend you for that.

I am hoping to see Mekugi's sources. At this point, from the background you all have given me, it appears that Mekugi has engaged in original research and synthesized new conclusions based on primary sources -- which is not the way Wikipedia operates. I will need to understand better what is going on with this old scroll he has scanned (which, BTW, I am concerned about whether it is a copyright violation or not.. probably not, if it's old enough, I guess...). Do we need to interpret the scroll in order to show that the school was once called by a different name? Or is that pretty much clear as day in the scroll? If the latter, then Mekugi may have a point, with some caveats. (For instance, the name thing definitely does not belong in the intro paragraph, as this gives undue weight to a minor quibble) Anyway, that is all a content dispute and we will try to resolve it on the article's talk page rather than here.

So, if it makes you feel better Randy, here are my conclusions regarding the Wikiquette alert itself: I see no harassment or libel from User:Toobills and User:RC&RB. I see some civility issues from all three users in question, but nothing major. At this point, I am inclined to mark the Wikiquette alert as "Resolved" and continue to work on the content dispute via the talk page.

Any objections? --Jaysweet (talk) 14:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

One objection.

None of my research is original. I had to show these gentlemen the kanji on website in question, and explain what it meant to them for their reserouce (it's listed in one of the deleted posts on the discussion page early on). Also, on the first line of the Wiki article the the resource is clearly listed as a footnote. If you would like a scan of the book and the article in the book (which was printed by the Sekiryukan), I can provide it. Also, I re-posted to additional resources to the name on the discussion page- written in Japanese. To say that I have been doing original research without looking at the footnote is kind of missing something, I would think.

Attack based on falsehood from Guettarda

Resolved

 – taken to AN/I. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Guettarda recently claimed that I've "gone so far as to threaten to introduce pro-ID POV into articles that most people admit are pretty good" in an unspecified post at Wikipedia Review. [19] The problem is that it isn't remotely true. I have made no such post, nor do I believe anything I've posted could be interpreted in such a way. As a result, I'm left with the conclusion that Guettarda's statement was a lie, and responded based on that. [20]

The problem is, Guettarda has refused to retract the statement or prove it, and only removed the "observation" because it made me more than a little angry, which was "distracting from its purpose." [21] I find the allegation extremely offensive, and do not want it to become a "fact" simply because Guettarda stated it and refused to retract the claim.

I was unfortunately not able to submit this earlier, as I was away for the holiday weekend. Does anyone have any suggestions? Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 17:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd have tried discussing this with the subject of this Wikiquette, but I'm afraid I already know what he's capable of. Try AN/I - but be clear about what you want (he be warned or asked to retract the statement or whatever it is). Keep the length roughly the same as this, if not slightly shorter. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems like that may be necessary. I would like to get some more input before doing that, but I guess I'll probably submit it later today. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 20:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I've posted the issue over at AN/I: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Guettarda refuses to retract offensive personal attack Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 16:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalking and Harassment

What can I do to get user Mdsummermsw to stop following me around and trying to falsely attach me to other accounts, IPs, etc (see their talk page and the Michelle Rodriguez Discussion Archive page)? It's getting really old that this person reverts practically every edit I do, constantly makes accusations, and when I try to resolve the issue peacefully on their talk page, disemvowel my words, leaving only their own (again, see their talk page). They're behavior of psychotic research trying to prove some point that I am various others is disturbing and disruptive and I'm tired of it. At this point it's stalking, harassment, and slander. I just want to edit articles accurately, I don't want to be stalked and harassed 24/7 by someone who lives on Wikipedia every second of every day and makes it their goal to declare withchunts for no other reason than ego boosting or lack of anything better to do. I tell them to stop stalking and they respond by MORE stalking. It's insane, pathetic, and highly disruptive. Hope you can help. Thanks. LBear08 (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet looked into the allegations of harassment and false sockpuppetry accusations, but the disemvoweling is wholly inappropriate, such as in this edit. It is not acceptable to refactor other people's talk page comments, even on one's own user talk page (you may delete comments on your own talk page, but not edit them). I have warned the user about that.

Regarding the other allegations, do you have any diffs you could provide? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

LBear08 -- do you deny that you and User:L8ear08 are the same person? The allegations of sockpuppetry do indeed seem to be accurate, unless you believe you are using multiple accounts in a way that is within policy. Mdsummermsw has done nothing wrong by pointing out that these two accounts are almost certainly operated by the same person. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, it looks like Mdsummermsw's disemvoweling was in retaliation for the same repeated behavior on the part of LBear08. That does not make it okay, of course, but the deeper I dig, the more obvious it is that LBear08 is the problem here. The only thing Mdsummermsw did wrong was a single retaliatory disemvoweling edit, which she has since reverted. Mdsummermsw is pretty much in the clear here.

Now the question is, why is LBear08/L8ear08 engaging in sockpuppetry and filing bad faith Wikiquette alerts? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, Yes! While L8ear08 seems similar to my name obviously and all of that, *I* personally have never signed in as that to the best of my recollection. Even if say I'd accidentally created two similar accounts and somehow don't remeber it, the problem is that the L8ear08 account makes edits to pages like "list of famous bisexuals" and Bjork, two topics of which I have no knowledge nor interest and especially would not be editing. So how can that be me? I don't know what's going on with the L8ear08 account (glitch? copycat?), but I am LBear08 not L8ear08. If I'd forgotten to sign in then one of those IPs could be mine, but the rest can't all be mine for goodness sakes and I'm tired of being hunted and having someone on my back (who is not an admin) 24/7. I just want to contribute to a few pages in peace as best I can. I just want this person to DROP IT and move on. Look back at how long ago that sock crap was posted and look at today's date and this user is STILL going on about it. At what point does it become deemable as harassment?

Second, no. My disemvowelmeant was in retaliation to THEIR constant doing so over the last several days (see their talk page and notice how they've been at it for awhile whereas my disemvowelment I JUST did today to prove the point of how obnoxious it is. That user is only in the clear when they stop harassing me. At what point will they stop with the accusations and stalking? LBear08 (talk) 19:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add, all of this began b/c of a previous disagreement we'd had. Awhile later I decided I wanted to go back to that discussion page and remove my own comments as I had no desire for petty argument to remain up like that. I never should have sunk to their bickering level. So I removed my own comments. This user then decides it's their right and priveledge to dictate what I can and can't remove that I myself contributed (to a talk page mind you, NOT the article which I know cannot be edited like that). I simply was trying to demonstrate maturity and obtain peace and the user wanted all disagreements to remain, all of their baseless accusations to remain, etc. for no valid reason. I've attempted peaceful resolution and suggested he/she delete their accusations and I my retaliated comments. However, they refuse...and for no reason whatsoever. I simply want resolution and then to be left alone by this user. LBear08 (talk) 19:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of "who started it" with the disemvoweling, it will no longer be tolerated, and that goes for both users. I hope that much is clear.

I find it extremely hard to believe that User:LBear08 edited Michelle Rodriguez for the months of March and May, and that User:L8ear08 edited the same article for the month of April, and that this is all just a coincidence. But in any case, the other account does not appear to have been used to evade a block or to cause disruption, so let's just put that issue aside for now.

I did a cursory glance at each of your contrib histories, and I do not see any evidence of stalking or harassment. Regarding your complaint about deleting the comments from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, Mdsummermsw is technically correct on this one. It is okay to archive old conversations on talk pages, but except for abusive or off-topic comments, it is generally frowned upon to remove discussions altogether. Those conversations stand as a record of the discussion and can be helpful for other users who are contributing to the article, so that they know what has already been discussed, etc.

That said, if Mdsummermsw agreed to let you remove the comments in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, would you consider the matter resolved? While deleting conversations from talk pages is generally frowned upon, it is not unheard of, and if that will solve this problem I think that would be acceptable (if Mdsummermsw agrees, of course). --Jaysweet (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course. No more disemvoweling from me, I find it obnoxious as heck so I'd never want to do it again anyway. As for the user issue, you can believe whatever you'd like, but I am telling you that I am NOT and never have been user L8ear08. I have no idea what that user is about or doing (copycatting for kicks?) but it has nothing to do with me. Now as for the discussion pages, I would love that to be the resolution...for us to remove our interactions (or at least my own), but up until now Mdsummermsw has been completely uncooperative on that front and continues on about it hence my feeling of being stalked and harassed. If they would agree, that would be great. LBear08 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Again, I see no evidence of stalking or harassment, and from a strict policy standpoint, Mdsummermsw is correct about not removing the discussion from the talk page. However, if it will make all the involved parties happy, I see no problem with making an exception to the standard policy and removing the conversation in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez. I have contacted Mdsummermsw and we will see if she is amenable to this solution. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment, I'm considering it. While considering it, I have again reverted LBear08's edits to the archive. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic. Well? LBear08 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – referred to AN/I. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This user has been difficult, disruptive, and agressive in many cases. This includes deletion debates and talk page discussions. He also pushes his own point-of-view as fact that everyone should follow. Plus, he chooses to ignore policies he doesn't agree with. Also, this essay: User:Fresheneesz/Don't Destroy has been quoted by him in various deletion debates. He acts as if it's something people must follow, but it's an editor's opinion and the tag at the top of it clearly states: This is an essay; it contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it. Also note: I was told to stay away from Le Grand, however it's a bit hard to do, when we edit and post in the same deletion debates. I don't see why I should personally stop editing many places, just because he started to take an interest in them. Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Weapons... and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mammoth Tank (2nd nomination) are great recent examples of his poor attitude. He is anti-deletion, which would be fine in any other case. However he's pushing it to the extreme, and choosing to ignore all rules just to attempt to keep just about every article he has interest in. RobJ1981 (talk) 00:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This AN/I discussion would be relevant. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While my viewpoints are the opposite to LGR's, I think he is rather courteous and is certainly not worthy of a WQA report. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I feel that the discussion in the VGProj Guidelines talk page has been crossing over into tendentious editing, but I have not seen evidence of him breaking any civility policies. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 02:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Harassment

I'd have to say I am finding it hard to see this thread as anything other than harassment [User_talk:Randomran#What_do_you_think.3F] as per [Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/RobJ1981#Future_Note this]. I am not uninvolved so recuse myself form action. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I find it easy to take that at face value. RobJ1981 contacted me because he wanted to put in a wikiquette alert, and now I'm participating in good faith. Randomran (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-wikiquette problem

I cannot say this is a civility or wikiquette issue either. The only thing I can say is that RobJ1981 contacted me to add my comment, and so I'll offer it here even if it is not the appropriate forum. Le Grand has repeatedly dragged AFD debates off topic. The two most common off topic discussions is whether deletion should ever be used except for articles created in bad faith, and whether the notability requirement has enough consensus to actually be a valid requirement.

These aren't wikiquette issues, and I'm not sure an administrator should be concerned with them. But they are vexatious and make it difficult for other AFD participants to have an on-topic discussion. I frequently try to correct him and put him back on topic, but it ultimately just derails the discussion further. I'm sure Le Grand just thinks he's having a logical discussion about whether to delete, but more often than not it becomes an off topic debate about fundamental wikipedia policy that should take place at actual policy pages like WP:N, WP:deletion policy, WP:GNG, WP:RS, WP:SPS, and so on.

I honestly don't know if these disruptions constitute a violation of wikiquette. But I know that they are disruptive, even if these disruptions are grounded in Le Grand's good faith beliefs that the notability requirement is unjust and his strong belief against deletion even when articles breach fundamental policy, except for articles made in bad faith. While these are beliefs held in good faith, they are as disruptive as an American communist arguing against the constitutional right to property every chance he gets (or, if you prefer, a Soviet democrat arguing for democratic elections every chance he gets). He's entitled to his opinion, but his repeated choice to use the wrong forum is extremely disruptive for the dozens of editors who do agree with fundamental policy, and the hundreds more who are trying to learn and understand it. Randomran (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I too certainly can't act on this--as a friend of GRC though not always a supporter. GRC has opened a discussion at AN/I, [22], and that will be the place to continue the discussion. But it does look as if Rob has tried & may have succeeded in driving GRC off WP because he does not want to follow the injunction to stay away from him. And Im puzzled that Rr thinks AfD is not the place to discuss questions about keeping articles. DGG (talk) 03:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent my complaint. I have had many AFD disagreements. But Le Grand has caused disruptions by going off topic:

• to explain that the notability requirement is invalid and should be ignored
• that deletion is only acceptable for articles made in bad faith, not for articles that are non-notable or based on unreliable sources

These are disruptive because they (1) mislead others about fundamental policy and (2) drag a debate about an individual article into a debate about fundamental policy such as WP:N, WP:SPS, or WP:RS. I know his lack of respect for policy is grounded in good faith, but it does not change that it is disruptive. (And has nothing to do with RobJ1981.) Randomran (talk) 03:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• As much as I wish to walk away, I have to say that calling disagreements "disruptions" is not merely uncalled for, but an unfortunate way of disagreeing with editors, if not insulting. Defending articles in AfDs that a good deal of editors created and edited in good faith, and that as the article traffic statistics indicate thousands of readers check monthly, is hardly "disruptive," especially because I have been consistent with closers plenty of times as seen at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions and as admins who can see deleted contribs know, when I argue to keep articles, I usually make some effort to find sources and improve the articles as well. Should we call your delete at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hattrick (2nd nomination) and defense of it even though it closed as a keep "disruptive" and against policies? Should your argument of "Strong delete and merge" at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Mesa Research Facility, which closed as no consensus, be considered a "disruptive" refusal to abide by the GFDL per Wikipedia:Merge and delete? What about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Space trading and combat simulation games? You nominated it and it closed as keep, so does that make it a "disruptive" nomination? Because you made multiple edits to it, is that "unconstructive" participation or "harassment" of those who disagreed with you in the discussion? How about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Block kuzushi, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grand strategy game, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Escape the room, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/First-person adventure, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tactical realism, or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xenogears Perfect Works? Those closed as keep or merge, so does that mean you keep nominating articles for deletion or argue to delete articles in defiance of policies and consensus? Should I take you to Wikiquette because you generally do not notify the creators of articles that they are nominated for deletion, because it is not "efficient"? What if I chastised your for not using edit summaries? The truth is I strongly disagree with you in many AfDs and you strongly disagree with me, but in some cases, they have closed as you argued and in some cases they have closed as I argued. Does that mean either of us is acting in bad faith or disruptively, not necessarily. Plus, if you really do not enjoy discussing with me, then why reply to me over and over as well? Discussions work two ways and I could not continue to discuss with someone if they just stop discussing with me. But that shouldn't matter as AfDs are a discussion and not a vote and I have any intent there it's to encourage editors to actually work through the issues concerning the article rather than to just make a list of deletes and keeps, which just looks like a vote and not a discussion. My hope was that by discussing with you we would come to some understanding and maybe even find a middle ground in which we could work together in a friendly fashion. I have tried that approach with others on the deletionist side of things and I usually engage editors in discussion when I respect them enough that I think it is worth discussing with them. I am deeply disheartened by what I see above as I thought maybe we would reach a point of understanding and end up finding somewhere we could agree and help each other out. I hate to say "never," so maybe that hope still remains even if I do think it necessary to leave for an idefinite, maybe permanent amount of time. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 04:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Not every disagreement that we have had has been disruptive. Far from it: people are allowed to be wrong and go against the grain on an AFD. But on several occasions, you have gone off topic of the AFD itself and began trashing the deletion process in general, and you've ignored my (misguided) efforts to get you back on topic. Regardless, I don't think this is the appropriate forum for this discussion anyway, since your disruptions are in good faith and cannot be considered a wikiquette issue. Randomran (talk) 04:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, please do not mischaracterize things as "disruptions" when under the same rubric that term could be applied to your own edits. In other words, either neither of us are disruptive or we both are. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 04:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Saying something once is an opinion. Saying something wrong is a mistake. But going off topic over and over even after repeated warnings cannot be seen as mere opinion or mistake. It is a disruption. I've been wrong and I've made mistakes, but I haven't been disruptive... with the possible exception of when I've been dragged into your disruptions, and I take my share of responsibility for that. Randomran (talk) 05:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Which is exactly what you do in those discussions as well and again, so what? We are supposed to discuss. We will move into much more proactive and constructive territory if we avoid the false claim of calling anyone "disruptive". Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 05:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with disagreement, which I do quite often. My issue is the off topic information about abstract deletion policy that has repeatedly derailed AFD discussions about specific articles. Off topic information is disruptive, even if done in good faith. And this discussion is the furthest thing from productive. This complaint has already been dismissed as outside the scope of wikiquette, and I have no plans on initiating any further complaint against you. I really doubt you'll be able to stay away from wikipedia anyway. Randomran (talk) 05:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussions are hardly derailed. Anyway, if my health does not improve and if I am harassed on and off wiki, I think I will have no choice but to stay away. It's not because I want to, but because I have seen someone fixate on me for nearly a year to the point of trying to inspire dissent about me on IRC and emails and given some of what others have experienced on this project, such signs of escalation are a real concern as to spiraling into a realm that is outside wiki and simply unacceptable, especially when I see cyrptic comments made against me like "... if he truely wants to be left alone." Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 05:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Whatever happened to AGF? This is just a bunch of AFD discussions gone bad. You'll be back. I'd put money on it. Randomran (talk) 06:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Which is exactly all I want, i.e. people to indeed assume good faith and to not take discussions in AfD as anything more than discussion. My health is always a who knows, so, we'll see there, but it is important that if I do ever return after tonight, I know it is worthwhile and that disagreements are not going to escalate into something for which I have to be concerned beyond Wikipedia. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 06:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

See you on the AFDs in a few days. Randomran (talk) 06:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I explained the non-cryptic remark at ANI already. I have the right to discuss things off wiki with people. If you must know: I didn't want to discuss things, as I knew certain things I said would get twisted around. And guess what? They did, with many of your comments in ANI (as well as here). I don't think there is any policy saying "talk about Wikipedia on Wikipedia only". Calm down, and stop assuming bad faith. RobJ1981 (talk) 06:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is merit in this report, this still does not fall under WQA - take it to AN/I. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Bedford

Please see the medcab case. Xavexgoem (from medcab) referred me here as he was unsure the issue fit within the scope of medcab. I have sought a third opinion and the advice of numerous users and this is my last recourse before RfC/U. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Broooooooce (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to add my support for this alert. Its clear that admin Bedford has been violating WP:NPA and WP:CIV. He as also thrown around allegations of vandalism and stalking. This is particularly disturbing and certainly warrants community attention. Bstone (talk) 03:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's see, you've attacked me on my talk page, lament lament lament on IvoShandor's talk page and continued vile and conspiracy against me at Ivo's and Ruhrfisch's page, even after Ivo had what could be called a temper tantrum. Then, you not just started being active at DYK after this broohaha, a place that I frequently maintain, but became highly active, and started critquing articles when you had no lue of the main rules. And over what? A practice I have engaged in since I've come to Wikipedia three years ago and nobody, repeat nobody, saw a big deal in, even through almost all my work regarding the War of Northern Aggression has been highly visible. Plus, just now you keep adding to a MedCab that has already been closed.--Bedford ^Pray 05:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

My additions are placed on that page simply because that is what I have linked here. I had a photo featured on DYK before I ever met you and my decision to seek out new places to be active on here is hardly some sort of evidence to a conspiracy against you. Just because no one has suggested your use of the term was NPOV before does not make it untrue. I have not "attacked" you anywhere. I challenge you to find any instance where I have been less than civil with you.

Furthermore, before I made an error based on an unposted rule at DYK, I had put the OK stamp on other nominations you had made (secretly, I hoped that this would be taken as a gesture of good will). After my unintentional mistake, you said that I needed to learn to read, that I needed to go back to school, you insinuated that my intelligence wasn't of a caliber to make determinations as to the eligibility of DYK nominations, you've questioned my areas of knowledge, my pride in my heritage, you have applied sinister intentions to a plethora of my recent actions without basis, you have accused me of vandalism and even stalking. What gives you the right? What have I done to deserve this aside from ask you to explain your reasoning in the NPOV debate and make an honest mistake on the DYK page (which I apologized for even after being ridiculed for something I had no way of knowing in the first place)? Broooooooce (talk) 05:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I have been asked to weigh in here and am providing my opinion. I think Bedford and Broooooooce both make valuable contributions to the project and sincerely hope that this can be resolved amicably. In my opinion, the root of the matter is Bedford's steadfast insistence on linking to War of Northern Aggression in his many otherwise fine articles, especially on NRHP sites. As I wrote on Bedford's talk page, I feel this is wrong for several reasons, the most important of which is that it violates WP:NPOV, one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. Whatever Bedford wants to call the American Civil War on his user page and even on talk pages is his business, but in articles it should be the accepted neutral name. Since Bedford is also quite successful at getting his articles on DYK (for which I congratulate him), this means that these are not POV errors in obscure and seldom seen articles (like what I write ;-) ) but are in some of our most visible work (for the day of DYK anyway). The second most important reason I feel this is wrong is that the link to War of Northern Aggression is a redirect to Naming the American Civil War, not American Civil War (and it used to be a dab). I think not making mistakes on purpose is the zeroth pillar of Wikipedia, as the idea of not putting in wrong information and wrong links is so basic it is just assumed and not stated explicitly. Now I will say that there are certainly times when it is OK to use the term "War of Northern Aggression", but not as a general name for the American Civil War.

In Bedford's defense I will say that he does not revert when others change the term and link, but since he points out he has been doing this for three years, I do not think it is stalking when his new articles get a closer inspection by those aware of the issue. I also think he was wrong to remove the MedCab template when it explicitly says not to. He certainly does not seem to be assuming good faith, and his actions border on incivility.

Since he has read my talk page (and I his) he knows I will file an RfC if he contunues to use War of Northern Agression in articles as a name for the American Civil War. I sincerely hope it does not come to that, and that this is resolved amicably. I think all of the other matters Bedford mentions are extraneous and meant to divert attention from the real problem, his year-long POV pushing which has only recently been discovered. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't care less if Bedford goes around Wikipedia accusing me and anyone else of whatever concspriacy he has dreamed up, my only concern was that the articles he writes (which are good) adhere to WP:NPOV. I can't help but wonder though, what does Harperly Hall have to do with this? Oh, that's right nothing.IvoShandor (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Steven Chayer article and user Cquan

My discussion with him over the article Steven Chayer has been kind and level-headed. He is condescending and rude and wants to be an Administrative Editor.

Drewhamilton (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, he has been neither condescending nor rude. He has been patient and helpful. Incidentally, it is customary to notify the person in question that he is the subject of a Wikiquette alert, as explained above under "Instructions for users posting alerts". Ilkali (talk) 11:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Trouble with an anonymous user

I'm having some trouble with an anonymous user who has violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL at talk:United States men's national soccer team and would appreciate some intervention. The section is the one about the team's captain. -- Grant.Alpaugh 14:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide diffs of where you think the user has violated policy? Thanks. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

this is the most recent attack, but if you look through the conversation you'll see the overall tone of the discussion from his end has been agressive to say the least. -- Grant.Alpaugh 15:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are right that the tone of that discussion is getting out of hand. I have posted a note telling people to calm down, and placed the page on my watchlist. We'll go from there. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the intervention. -- Grant.Alpaugh 21:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing civility, lag of AGF, PA, etc

4d-don: [[23]]

I have asked, begged, pointed to links, warned, etc., and this user continues to make every discussion about contributors. Everyone who disagrees with him is a "member of an organization" trying to hide information.

A quick look at the Sahaj Marg talk page will show you what I mean. I have warned numerous times on his talk page, however, it doesn't seem to do much good... mainly since I am part of "the cabal." [[24]]

And now he his invited meat puppets to come and "vote" for his position. [[25]] One has shown up, hopefully the warnings have stopped the others.

I have tried to be civil with this user over a period of a year, and have for the most part succeeded, but the behaviors are the exact same as a year ago.

Help. Sethie (talk) 18:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sethie.. I have looked at the talk page and it does seem we have a problem here. Regarding the meatpuppet accusation, I don't understand; the diff you provided links to an edit by 4d-don himself. Regarding the general problems with discussion, it is hard to know what to do. I see a lot of conflict, but I have not yet noticed a personal attack. In the diff you provided, it is not clear to me whether 4d-don was serious or not about the "cabal" thing.

Do you have more specific diffs, perhaps? From reading the talk page and looking at the diffs you provided, I can see 4d-don may be difficult to work with, but I am having trouble finding anything actionable.

Also, have you let 4d-don know about this report yet? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response.

The meatpuppet thing is that he has invited meats (as the link I shows provided) and then says all of us are meapuppets. Nothing big, just part of the larger picture. The cabal thing- is just again, one small piece of a larger picture.

There are two PA's I have noticed, which I warned and linked to on his talk page.

That is kind of the thing- Don doesn't really break any hard rules, he just makes things really unfun. I have pointed him to the links for COI, meats, socks, etc., instead of taking actions, he just posts about how we're all meats, socks, have COI, etc.

On his talk page I have linked to AGF, SOAP, PA, etc issues.

No I haven't informed him, and I will. Sethie (talk) 19:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean about the "meatpuppet" diff. heh, well, I really only would consider it meatpuppetry if somebody actually listened, ha ha ha, but in any case the comment by 4d-don was a little inappropriate, and definitely very silly.

Hmmm, well I'll put the page on my watchlist and we'll see what comes of htis.. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well we've had two meats show up, one an hour after he posted his "instructions."

Your perspective it helpful.... this isn't a big deal. It's an annoyance. Thank you for agreeing to watch the page. Sethie (talk) 21:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Jaysweet...

What we have here is group from a faction of SRCM, who, not being accepted by the original SRCM (Shahjahanpur), after charges of forgery of the "succession papers", re-registered the SRCM in California, USA, in 1997, and placed themselves on the board of all the SRCM Societies in other countries. This "break-away group", patented the words "Sahaj Marg" in the US. Sahaj Marg is the Practice of this factionalized SRCM who just received a judgement from the [Supreme Court of India]. There have been accusations of violence (2 neswspaper articles with photos) between these two factions. Many of the Group trying to re-write the Sahaj Marg WIKI article are members of the break-away group, SRCM (California), headquartered in Chennai, India. Many of the ones reading only and not editing are from the original SRCM (Shahjahanpur), registered in India, in 1945.

Now the reason for the "personal" attacks on editors who disagree, and the "blocking" of an editor with the help of an admin, has soured the waters for me, and keeps other potential contributors at bay, not wanting to "play this silly game" they claim. This article had been Deleted before and was just recently revived by Sethie. Even though I try and be civil, they take turns at personal attacks and then run to "the teacher" to tattle...doing nothing about the original "bullying" by one or the other of the GROUP. It's like a bunch of kids in the schoolyard. lol Mostly they try and control and don't used "COMMON SENSE" as per WIKI. There is no concensus possible and I am trying to see what the concensus is to go to MEDIATION (Formal I think)...one issue at a time... and that draws more "scorn" and attacks.

If you check my bio, you will see that I am not the kind of person this person tries to paint me to be, and I am a team player, having sat on many government committees, having chaired many "NGO's", charities, Municipal committees, Chamber of Commerce committees, and been recognized for my work for the country and the planet by our Governor General, Prime Minister, the Premiers of two Provinces (Canada), and many mayors..... the attempts here, at the risk of sounding "conspiratorial" is to have me blocked also. I am trying to write a balanced article for Sahaj Marg, but it is impossible to reach a concensus on any point with this "cabal" (meat-puppets?...I just found out what that was...lol) from SRCM (California), who want to give credibility to their questionable business practices, and using WIKI as a PR vehicle... I don't favour the original SRCM (Shahjahanpur) but I also don't like the tactics used to control WIKI by this group.

You gotta laugh, b'cause it's not funny...;-))

Don--don (talk) 22:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I could not have provided a better example of what we are up against, pretty much in every post. A user who doesn't show a clear understanding of how wiki-works, has a clear agenda, talks a lot about other users and not the article and sees everyone who disagrees with him, as part of a cabal. Sethie (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:4d-don is a single-purpose account (see contribs) with a strong COI. Here he lists his anti-Sahaj Marg blog (at the end of this post). He has been warned repeatedly against soapboxing and incivility by an admin (see this, this, this, and this), as well as editors (see this, this and this) but continues to label all editors who disagree with him members of a cabal or faction (total assumptions on his part, btw). When he's not accusing people as being members of this or that group, he's namecalling others, here he called Sethie a "donkey." So, any help provided by neutral editors is greatly appreciated. Renee (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It is clear this user doesn't "get it". I am doing my best, but soon sanctions may be our only recourse. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Cross-posted from Talk:Sahaj Marg:

I am not educated enough in this subject to comment independently, but I think I have seen enough.

The consensus seems to be very much against Don's proposed changes. While it is always possible that one person is correct in the face of opposition from the majority, Don has not provided any sources that I find sufficient to back his claims. To take each one in detail:

Don has attacked a book on world religions using some rather roundabout logic that I'm not sure I entirely follow. I am still not sure what source is being referenced, but in any case, he is going to have to provide a more coherent reason for why it would not be considered a reliable source, particularly when consensus of the other editors here (who are all more knowledgeable than me) seems to be that it is a reliable source.

Renee has asserted that the controversy over ownership of the SMRC name has not been covered in the mainstream press. While it is impossible to definitely prove a negative assertion such as this, I think it is fair to say that the controversy should not be added to the article unless and until a mainstream news source is located which covers the controversy.

I don't have an opinion about the age limit thing, but the consensus is strongly against inclusion, so Don will just have to abide by that.

I recommend the following actions:

• The age limit thing stays out, unless consensus were to change in the future.
• The SMRC ownership controversy stays out, unless a mainstream reliable source can be found.
• The thing from the world religions book stays in, unless other editors can provide a more coherent objection to its use as a reliable source.
• Don must refrain from posting sermons to the talk page. Any further long-winded sermonizing about Sahaj Marg or the "true nature of religion" or any of that crap may be removed on sight, and if Don continues to restore it, a report to WP:ANI/3RR is in order.

Is this acceptable? --Jaysweet (talk)

Sounds very reasonable. Thanks for taking the time to wade through it all!Renee (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto on the thank you!!!! A very skillful intervention. Sethie (talk) 02:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalk

This is User:SportsMaster. I have a case of Wikistalk with GoHuskies9904. He has been editing article I have created almost exclusively. For a small portion of the list of articles he has done this to see the following. Homer E. Woodling [26], Robert F. Busbey [27], Weird U.S. [28], 2004 NBA All-Star Game [29], 1997 NBA All-Star Game [30], 1981 NBA All-Star Game [31], 1972 NBA All-Star Game [32], 1951 All-Star Game [33]. Please note that he did not mark any other NBA All-Star games as stubs (presumably because I didn't create them). Here are more examples. Vixen (RV), Dodge Meadowbrook, Suzuki FZ50, Waterloo Hawks, Waterloo Hawks all-time roster, Moondog (mascot), Whammer (mascot), Robert E. Hawkins, Yahoo! Sports, Yahoo! Fantasy Sports, 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team, Maxwell Show. It seems to me he carries a beef with me since I reverted his incorrect edit on 02:48, February 27, 2008 about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team. [34] Here is a listing of all of his edits [35] Please also take not that this has gone on for months at a time.

--SportsMaster (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the tags on the NBA All-Star games, as it appears those were clearly made in bad faith. The other stub tags I looked at seemed appropriate. H

I noticed you have not actually asked him to stop following you around. I am about to do so now. Hopefully that will resolve the issue. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Jaysweet for your help. It is greatly appreciated.--SportsMaster (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:GoHuskies9904 is now tagging all of the All-Star game articles as stubs. I could see an argument either way, I mean, mostly they just present game lineups and not a lot of encyclopedic detail, so he has a point. I'm not going to edit war over it.

SportsMaster, here's the thing... well I am not sure if he's been following you around or not (I just asked him point blank, we'll see what he says), most or all of his edits appear to be legit. Are there any in particular you have a problem with? --Jaysweet (talk) 21:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added a stub tag to about all of the All-Star Game pages. 2002, 2006-present seem pretty good, but everything else has been tagged regardless of whether or not SportsMaster has had his hands in them. Nothing is done in bad faith, but when a user like SportsMaster has a history of just creating articles some of them are going to get tagged for improvement or deletion. Simple as that; most of them are good actually. -GoHuskies9904 (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While that sounded like a good story, in truth if you look at your edits, the ONLY edits you have made have been on articles I have created. You have not edited anyone elses articles, except one in a very, very, blue moon. So if it was the case that you are trying to delete stubs, why not target others, there are PLENTY out there, other than my own articles to target exclusively as you have done. It is very annoying and very agrivating to have to log in and defend articles that I have written from deletion because you feel the need to nominate them on an almost daily basis. --SportsMaster (talk) 22:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No one is stalking you, you just create many articles which subjects you to more interaction. Again, Wikipedia is not just yours, I am willing to work with you if you are willing to work with me. I'm not the only user that has been concerned about how you work with others. Everytime someone gives suggestions for your pages you report them for stalking/harassing you. That is not cool! I also nominate things for discussion, I don't just delete your work. I always go by majority rules. And I'm not trying to delete your All-Star articles, I'm just tagging them for expansion in which they need. I've tagged all the ones that need work not just including yours. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 23:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You are wikistalking me, that is obvious in your contribution history. I also have never said, nor incinuated the articles were "mine", I do not appericate you falsing stating that. Every is a very strong word GoHuskies9904, I would be careful with the words you choose. Why have you not address my conerns about you nominating other articles for deletion. As of right not they have been exclusively ones I created.--SportsMaster (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If they aren't "yours" why are you so worried about allowing for group discussion on some articles I deem as shady for Wiki standards. If enough people share your opinion in the discussions then I respect that. I don't report you every time you disagree with me. And Wikipedia:Other_stuff_exists is not an excuse for certain articles you may have ties to exist. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I have examined GoHuskies9904's contrib history in depth, and while it is false that he only edits/critiques articles that SportsMaster is involved in, the overlap is high enough to draw a little concern. I am still nto 100% convinced, though, because most of the overlap is in regards to basketball-related articles... I mean, is it possible that both users just really like basketball? (Not like their usernames suggest that or anything ;p )

The other thing that makes this tough is that GoHuskies9904's contribs are almost all legitimate. I mean, you can't really dispute that Vixen (RV) is stub, right? And SportsMaster, another thing to understand is that having your article tagged as a stub is not a bad thing... in fact, in many ways it is a good thing, because it may attract other users to come help and improve the article.

Now, the one thing I am really concerned with about GoHuskies9904's edits is the high percentage of failed AfD nominations. Everybody gets it wrong sometimes (I'd be lying if I said I didn't) but from what I saw it looked like something like 50% of the AfDs GoHuskies9904 started result in Keep. That is potentially creating a lot of extra work for people to go in and vet these articles that really had no problem to begin with -- and, whether the overlap with SportsMaster's articles is coincidental or intentional, I hope you can understand how it would be really annoying to him!

What I would suggest, GoHuskies9904, if you are willing, is for you to refrain from directly nominating articles created by SportsMaster for AfD. (I think GoHuskies9904's other edits, including tagging SportsMaster's articles as stubs, are mostly beyond reproach, so whether GH is following SM around or not, I have trouble seeing anything actionable) If you are really certain, you can always contact a 3rd party and see if they agree.

Would this solution be amenable to both parties? --Jaysweet (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that solution works for me. Thank you once again Jaysweet. --SportsMaster (talk) 14:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll propose this. If I come across another article of his that I deem worthy of an AfD I will message him to see if he can't improve the article. If he does that, I won't nominate the article. However, Master has a pattern of not working well with others (i.e. reverting edits without proper reason, deleting any warnings or constructive critism on his talkpage, etc). Every time he has an issue with someone disagreeing with him he reports them to an admin or whomever. I'm not the only user he has done this too. Nothing has ever come from his reports either. All of my edits are legit. If he can work with me whenever I come across one of his hands-on article I won't be so hasty. But if he keeps reporting me or others I will just nominate cause I know I can't work with this guy. I'm just asking he learn to work with others and realize sometimes people will disagree and that wikipedia is a group effort and just because you created an article it doesn't make it yours. Thanks! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I do work well with others. You are one of the exceptions. You seemed to take offense to me reverting your edit here [36]. Since you then preceded to disregard my comments I left on your talk page about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team article. The source you were using was a Seinfeld script, which HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRAKE BULLDOGS BASKETBALL, which I explained in my above comment. [37] Then you couldn’t seem to comprehend the comment I left you and wanted to get into an edit war over it. You also then left me this comment, which is TOTALLY uncivilized. [38] You then wouldn’t leave the article alone until another person agreed with me. [39] Then you proceeded to wait a few months (presumably thinking I wouldn't watch the page then (which I was)) and got into another edit war over it. [40]. You were once again proved incorrect. [41] Since you do started off by disregarding my comments I left on your talk page about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team article you seemed to want to get revenge by going through my edit history, and mainly my user page, which I have subsequently blanked for the very reasons and nominating numerous articles for deletion to annoy me and waste my time. Also once again Jaysweet he makes no mention of why he almost never contributes anything on his own, GoHuskies almost only nominates articles for deletion (stuff I have worked hard on and spent a great deal of time on). Without contributing anything on his own. Which he still has yet to address. You sir are the one who does not work well with others. After the afore mentioned totally uncivilized comment, I had good reason to not want to communicate with you at all. All this is taking an extreme amount of time and energy out of my day and is EXTREMLY frustrating. This has gone on for months and MUST CEASE. --SportsMaster (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Side question: Who are User:SportsMasterESPN and User:UWMSports?

As far as GoHuskies9904's perceived lack of positive contribs, well, I wish there were more work improving articles and less deletion nominations, but some of the cleanup work that has been done as a result is worthwhile.

GH, I would reiterate my proposal to you to just refrain from nominating SM's articles for AfD directly. On at least two occasions, the result of the AfD was Keep anyway. If you are really 100% certain, you can always contact a third party and ask them to nominate the article for AfD. I think this would make all of the involved parties happy, with only a very minimal impact on your ability to contribute to the encyclopedia. You can still nominate anybody else's article, and you can still suggest improvements to SM's articles. Any chance you would reconsider that proposal? --Jaysweet (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SportsMasterESPN is SportsMaster's old username. He had to change it because an admin had a problem with it as an advertisement for ESPN. UWMSports is another user who has had issues with SportsMaster's work. One of the other users Master constantly reports.

And I would like to help improve some of these articles if my edits weren't reversed. Master does not work well with people! The only way my edits can stand or be considered is bringing in a third party. Again, I will refrain from nominating articles for deletion if Master agrees to work with me if I happen to come across one of his pages down the road. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, stop changing the topic, it is not about UWMSports, secondly I had good reason to report him, and everything I did was valid. So find another reason. I am also sick and tired of you saying I do not work well with others. The afore mention Drake example is evidence you do not. So stop your complaining. --SportsMaster (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SM, I asked about UWMSports because I noticed very similar conflicts involving that user. I'm just trying to understand the backstory here.

I guess I have to dig into this "The Drake is great" mess now. Man, can't that Seinfeld episode remain a happy memory for me? heh... --Jaysweet (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wrong on that, should have gone with a 3rd party, but initially UWMSports thought it should be there too. I just thought SportsMaster was being a pain there, but when UWM said it shouldn't stay there I backed off. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 18:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SM -- Aside from the Woodling/Busbey AfDs, what other articles have you created that you feel GH has nominated for AfD in bad faith? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Waterloo Hawks all-time roster. I finally just gave up and merged it, even though all other NBA teams have an all-time roster page. It also is one thing if he nomtinated other pages for deletion, but he dosn't, only mine. Ones that were listed on my userpage.Some articles might have been stubs that he nominated, but the fact is that information was going to be added, and he was the only person who had a big enough problem with it to nominate it for deletion. --SportsMaster (talk) 19:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated articles that aren't "yours". Eskimo kissing, Arden Valley Road, etc. I find it funny how you say you never called these articles yours but you do every time you report someone. Go look at User talk:GoHuskies9904. Even UWM says you don't work well with people. I'm sorry for any comments you've deemed rude, but you do frustrate the heck out of me by not working with others. I will refrain from those comments in the future, but you need to work with people!!! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 19:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Also note this [42] --SportsMaster (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SportsMaster: Speaking from a strictly WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF point of view, I find the disparity in attitudes quite disturbing here. Regardless of the overlap in edit histories, this conversation clearly shows GoHuskies trying to make peace and explain his actions in a calm and concise manner, and Jaysweet has mentioned that GH's edits appear largely legitimate - I assume he means in keeping with WP's content policies. As such, I think that your response to the situation very much assumes bad faith on GH's part - you're basically saying that GH's only purpose on Wikipedia as a whole is to harass you by tagging articles that you've created - something he denies and which anyone can verify by looking at GH's contribution history. This puts you in a shaky position - this WQA and the way you're handling it makes you come across as asserting ownership of article content, being a tendentious editor, and/or disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. You do not appear to be willing to consider that GH's actions may be good-faith attempts to cut down on clutter and unencyclopedic content, nor do you appear willing to work cooperatively on improving the content. Yes, it is quite possible that he acted too swiftly and knee-jerked on the tagging, but that does not mean he is automatically Wikistalking you.

I would suggest stepping back, cooling off, and trying to see this situation from someone else's point of view. In my opinion, you're getting too worked up over this issue, and it's only going to cause more friction between yourself and other editors, potentially leading to further disruptions and blocks. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack

Resolved

 – Editor already warned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

This edit to me seems very uncivil. I warned CorticoSpinal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) but a neutral third party talking to him may help. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think your 2 cents that accompanied your warning was provocative. Please take care not to inflame the situation. Will check some more. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana has already warned the user. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Uncivil edit summary comment

Diff. Thanks -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Presumably you only bothered to check the cause of the broken references after you stamped your feet and cried on my talk page. Bradley0110 (talk) 10:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bradley, that's enough. You need to be more careful to maintain civility, even if you feel another editor is behaving in a frustrating manner. Please try and work with the other editor constructively, and if after doing your best you find you cannot, the dispute resolution process can always be used. In any case, it is never appropriate to resort to name-calling or ridicule such as "stamped your feet and cried", or what you said in the edit summary John pointed out.

I am leaving a warning on your talk page. There is no problem with your edits per se, but you must remain civil. Thank you. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Jefffire's disruptive behavior

Jefffire has been editing in a disruptive, tendentious manner over at Orthomolecular medicine, including removing large amounts of well-sourced material after being reverted (diff), holding inconsistent views about policies (SYNTH: diff), and RS, see his revert of my use of Nutrition J, PNAS, ect.), accusing editors of being meatpuppets (diff), and in general refusing to dialogue while preventing people from making constructive edits. On his talk page he just baldly stated that he's "not interested in the topic and thus "not going to do research" or read scientific articles on the topic he's editing (diff), showing that he's not actually interested in creating a balanced article. Most recently, he reverted my edit on cancer prevention and possible treatment sourced to Nutritional Journal, PNAS, and CMAJ, (diff) sources reliably used in the article currently. I don't want to waste people's time over at RS/N by questioning whether PNAS is a reliable soruce. This is another attempt to resolve things with Jefffire before I initiate a RfC on his behavior, or whatever I can do to reduce disruption. If he prefers, we can do a Mediation or something. I'm just tired of this neener-neener attitude. If Jefffire is not willing to research a topic, and admits to not knowing about it, he should not be editing it. ImpIn | (t - c) 22:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Apart from your 'neener' remarks, I don't see any evidence of incivility. However, from the diffs, it's very clear that Jefffire understands policy, while you don't. PhilKnight (talk) 23:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You find none of the above troublesome, hmm? If you'd be willing to elaborate, I'd love to hear it. If you'd prefer not to, that's fine, but I would like another opinion. ImpIn | (t - c) 01:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

What is clear from the (diff) is that Jefffire will delete well sourced material wholesale without investigation and then insist that other people (but not himself) be more selective.--Michael C. Price ^talk 09:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible COI User:Nseidm1

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

I'm a little concerned that User:Nseidm1 is falling into a conflict of interest situation - but I don't see any really clear guideline that covers this specific situation in the WP:COI description. The user's real name (from his User page) is Noah Seidman and from his user page (and a Google search on "Noah Seidman water fuel") it is clear that he's heavily involved - almost certainly at a commercial level - with various 'fringe theories' about water powered cars (and the highly dubious business of "hydrogen enhanced fuel" for cars). Looking at his edit history, you'll note that he edits exclusively in a handful of articles that variously discuss these topics - and many of the articles he works on end up skewing heavily in favor of these fringe theories. Check out "Hydrogen fuel enhancement" for example - the article has literally hundreds of edits from this user and it reads like an advertisement for his technology. The lead photo is taken from research that Nseidm1 claims to have performed (look in the image description page) - which presumably amounts to a WP:NOR violation. This editor also has a propensity for uploading copyrighted images - initially without fair-use rationales - then with bogus rationales that eventually result in the images being removed. He clearly has no compunction about doing this because his own private and commercial websites employ many of the same images - almost certainly in violation of said copyrights.

I'm not sure whether this should be taken further - and because I'm one of the editors working hard to bring these articles in line with our WP:FRINGE policy, I tend to be on the opposite side of many edit debates with User:Nseidm1 - so I'm hardly a neutral party here and would not like to be accused of wielding WP:COI as a weapon in edit disputes.

But - I'm deeply concerned that there is a problem here.

So, in the interests of fairness and neutrality, I would appreciate it if someone without my inherent bias (which I freely admit) would take an independent look at Nseidm1's position here and consider whether his behavior does indeed rise to the level of a WP:COIN complaint or something else.

However, I would prefer to recuse myself from further input since I do not feel able to be entirely dispassionate about the matter.

TIA. SteveBaker (talk) 04:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, this is totally outside the realm of WQA, as it doesn't appear to be any sort of a civility issue. I'd recommend going ahead and asking at WP:COIN - it certainly couldn't hurt, if you believe there's really a possible COI there, the admins at the noticeboard should be able to help you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Continuous personal attacks

I have been a target of continuous personal attacks by anon despite repeated warning.

User:24.180.3.127: Keeps making edits despite my pleas to discuss. And when he finally agreed, he wrote this. Made statements like "this guy thinks he is God here", "I think this is turning into too much falsehood", "Get off, do something else, write a book or something if you want to speak". Look at this edit summary: "undoing above the law user AI009 here who is trying to make this his webpage, stop your police state and go to college" making repeated taunts on my age. Repeatedly uses argumentative tone making it extremely difficult to continue discussion. Called me a Nazi, and this comment almost made me lose my cool as he resorted to all sought of lies. Goes on to make statements like "The threat is this guy", a 18 year old kid, and a a big fat liar. Also vandalized my talkpage and my userpage. Highly un-civil behavior making it very difficult to discuss. Let me also add, I've never resorted to name calling and tried to make all efforts to discuss the topic in as civil manner as possible. --AI009 (talk) 05:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)