Jump to content

Talk:Charles III

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ribbet32 (talk | contribs) at 13:50, 24 July 2023 (→‎Requested move 23 July 2023: move comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleCharles III has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You KnowOn this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 21, 2023Peer reviewReviewed
May 11, 2023Good article nomineeNot listed
May 22, 2023Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 4, 2023.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that in 1984, Charles, Prince of Wales described a proposed extension to the National Gallery as a "monstrous carbuncle"?
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on August 28, 2004, July 29, 2007, July 29, 2008, July 29, 2009, and July 29, 2010.
Current status: Good article

Template:Vital article

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst (talk) 03:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Prince Charles in 1984
Prince Charles in 1984

Improved to Good Article status by The Cunctator (talk). Nominated by Tim O'Doherty (talk) at 13:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Charles III; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Interesting GA, thank you for relentlessly getting him there! Fine sources, no copyvio obvious. I think most readers would say yes to the original hook. For the ALT, the intended image would need no be in the article, but I don't like the construction "as Prince of Wales, Charles III ...". Can you find something interesting he really did as King? ... best with an image to match? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt: How about simply:
Prince Charles in 1972
Prince Charles in 1972
ALT2: ... that in 1984, Charles, Prince of Wales (pictured) described a proposed extension to the National Gallery as a "monstrous carbuncle"?
This avoids the anachronism of "Charles III" and saves on space. There isn't much that isn't already obvious that Charles has done as king, that is illustrated in the article: the only thing that comes to mind is him banning foie gras, but that would be a very boring hook.
If you do require something else, please let me know. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
approve ALT2 if that's what you like ;) - offline sources accepted AGF, the pic is licensed and shows well even small. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome. Thanks very much. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:35, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Charles, Prince of Wales Disambiguation Page

I didn't know where to go about this, but someone messed up the Charles, Prince of Wales disambiguation page, and I can't edit it back. If someone could fix it, I would appreciate it. Thanks. StrawWord298944 (talk) 11:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023

To change the photograph to King Charles III 2023.jpg, as his official Coronation Portrait. 86.25.152.92 (talk) 13:56, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. That file is currently tagged for speedy deletion because it is a copyright violation. We cannot use it. --Jayron32 14:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC for infobox image change

Proposed image

There's this new image of King Charles III at Wikicommons which I think would be a great replacement for his infobox. It's in good quality, it's a recent one, it depicts King Charles III and not Prince Charles like the current infobox image and (despite it not being the official portrait) looks like a formal portrait. Opening up an RfC to hear everyone's thoughts! TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is definitely an improvement on the current image used. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me if this reply is in the wrong place—I'm editing on mobile, which is a bit hit-and-miss with indents—I still maintain that any of the images I'd listed here would be better, and that I think would make better lead images than the current image or this proposal. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:09, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TDKR Chicago 101: This isn't an RfC. It's just a normal talk page discussion. To open an RfC, you need to follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, do we really need yet another RfC? Perhaps we can continue this informal discussion to determine whether there's any consensus for using this new image... Rosbif73 (talk) 08:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good choice. I support the change. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t like it. There’s a shadow and a bit of an awkward unprepared look. Thriley (talk) 21:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Astra Carta

I recently created a draft for the Astra Carta, a set of space sustainability principles proposed by Charles. Thriley (talk) 18:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 July 2023

– Second try after the previous failed discussion at Talk:Charles_III/Archive_6#Requested_move_8_September_2022.

There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Charles III". There are many other very notable monarchs at Charles III (disambiguation) and having the British monarch at the base name is a violation of WP:RECENTISM, WP:NPOV and WP:WORLDVIEW. We shouldn't show bias for a monarch from an English-speaking country when other monarchs from other countries are equally notable, if not more. Furthermore, the current title doesn't follow the naming convention at WP:NCROY, which was created in part to avoid this kind of problem with ambiguous titles.

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is determined by looking at two aspects: usage and long-term significance. In terms of usage, the British monarch gets significantly more page views than any other monarch with the same name. Per [1], the British monarch gets around 75% of the total views. However, that is not the full list of monarchs at Charles III (disambiguation), pageviews only allows to compare up to 10 articles. So the percentage would be even lower. The pageviews are indeed higher, but the difference is not overwhelming. For comparison, the fruit is the primary topic for "apple", even though the company gets more than 80% of the views ([2]).

However, the main reason to move the article is that the long-term significance of the British monarch pales in comparison with other monarchs. He is merely a ceremonial figure and he is not a ruler as such. He doesn't govern or make any important decisions and he doesn't have any real military role (he commands no troops). Compare that to Charles III of Spain for example. He ruled as an absolute monarch over the biggest empire at the time, which spanned five continents (Europe, North and South America, Asia and Africa). He commanded the troops that conquered Naples and Sicily from Austria (Charles_III_of_Spain#Conquest_of_Naples_and_Sicily). As the intro of the article puts it: As king of Spain, Charles III made far-reaching reforms to increase the flow of funds to the crown and defend against foreign incursions on the empire. He facilitated trade and commerce, modernized agriculture and land tenure, and promoted science and university research. He implemented regalist policies to increase the power of the state regarding the church. During his reign, he expelled the Jesuits from the Spanish Empire[2] and fostered the Enlightenment in Spain. He strengthened the Spanish army and navy. Although he did not achieve complete control over Spain's finances, and was sometimes obliged to borrow to meet expenses, most of his reforms proved successful in providing increased revenue to the crown and expanding state power, leaving a lasting legacy.

And that is just one monarch of the list, although he is arguably the most notable. But there is also Charles the Fat, the last last Carolingian emperor, or Charles III John of Norway, French commander in the Napoleonic army who somehow became king of Sweden and Norway, to name just two others.

With so many other notable monarchs named Charles III, the British monarch has a very weak claim to be the primary topic and we should make Charles III a disambiguation page.

Some would say he is the monarch of the whole Commonwealth Realm, not just Britain. That is true, but he is mostly known as a British monarch. Even in Australia, where he is also a monarch, the media refer to the British throne, not the Australian or Commonwealth throne ([3]). There are also plenty of other examples where only one of the kingdoms is mentioned in the title, like Charles I of England, also king of Scotland, and Ireland, or Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, also king of Spain.

Finally, I want to preemptively try to refute some possible opposition arguments:

  • "We'll need to change so many links." True, but there are tools that make the task relatively easy.
  • "Other British monarchs like Elizabeth II or George VI don't mention "the UK", so we should keep the current title to be consisten." That ignores all the above arguments about primary topic and it plays down the importance of the other monarchs mentioned above. The main point of discussion is whether the British monarch is the primary topic. The title of other British monarchs articles is irrelevant, what matters is the notability of other monarchs with the same name.

Vpab15 (talk) 10:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Why are you doing a "second try" for a proposal that already failed? The decision last time was emphatically against, and endorsed at move review. Nominating again, with no indication that anything has changed, is not productive. Suggest speedy close.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Consensus can change, the previous discussion was almost a year ago during the whole succession frenzy. A more calm dicussion can happen now. Vpab15 (talk) 10:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per NCRAN. We should go back to the "NAME, ORDINAL of COUNTRY" format. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support clear example of systemic bias in favour of the English-speaking countries. He has only been king for less than a year, he could drop dead tomorrow, will he really have much greater long-term significance than e.g. Charles III of Spain? (At his age his reign could well be a relatively short one.) PatGallacher (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:Systematic bias is about bias in content coverage. Our naming and disambiguation guidelines however are deliberately based upon English usage. CMD (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. As was pointed out above, there are a number of monarchs with the name Charles III. COGNOMEN would seem to have us title him as Charles III of the United Kingdom. Векочел (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per WP:NCROY. While the British sovereign almost certainly meets WP:PT1, it's too soon to tell whether or not he'll meet WP:PT2. This RM is certainly a step in the right direction, as articles like Elizabeth II or George III should be the exception, not the standard. estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:44, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:CONSISTENT. The British monarch is most certainly the primary topic here. This is the English Wikipedia, and the vast majority of our readers who search for "Charles III" will be looking for this article. That makes it the primary topic. The current title is also the most common name as well as the most concise. And it is consistent with the other modern British monarch article titles: Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII, Queen Victoria, William IV, George IV, and George III. As for the guideline at WP:NCROY, guidelines are supposed to reflect consensus, and the consensus for over a decade has been that the modern British monarchs do not need the "of the United Kingdom" in the article titles. WP:NCROY is therefore grossly out of date and should be updated to reflect the current consensus that has been well established through multiple RM discussions over many years. WP:NCROY is also just a guideline, which cannot override policies such as WP:COMMONNAME. WP:NCROY even says this by stating that "If there is an overwhelmingly common name, use it". "Charles III" is the overwhelmingly common name, so according to WP:NCROY we should use it as the article title. Rreagan007 (talk) 14:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    COMMONNAME doesn't mean anything here. In context, the shorter version of anything would be the common name. If you really wanted the common name, "King Charles" or "the King" would be better than "Charles III", but they're obviously not suitable article titles. And I'm not sure why you'd pick consistency either: more English/British monarchs use the natural disambiguator; see this. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Only 3 British monarchs use a natural disambiguator (Anne, George I, and George II). All the rest from George III onward do not use it. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Rreagan007 - Not to be an irritant, but I did write "English/British. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I know you did. And in my original post that you were replying to I had written "British". Rreagan007 (talk) 22:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    . Tim O'Doherty (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll take that to mean you are missing my point, so let's try an analogy. Person 1: “Most sharks give birth to live young”. Person 2: “I don’t know why you would say that since most fish/sharks lay eggs”. Person 1: “Because of the 500 species of sharks, only 100 lay eggs”. Person 2: “I said 'fish/sharks', not 'sharks'”. Person 1: "I know you did, but I originally said 'sharks', not 'fish/sharks'". Rreagan007 (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll try a different analogy:
    Person 1: The UK is one of the most unstable countries in the world. In 2022, they had four chancellors, three prime ministers and two monarchs.
    Person 2: I don't know why you would say that given that in every year since 1964, the prime minister had always served at least a year, the previous monarch lasted 70 years, and the first chancellor of 2022, Rishi Sunak, lasted two years.
    Person 1: Liz Truss only lasted 49 days.
    Person 2: I said "since 1964".
    Person 1: I know you did, but I said "in 2022".
    See how you can justify a point of view by only covering a very small portion of a topic? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment This could be partly because the names used by recent British monarchs haven't been commonly used in other monarchies. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply This is indeed the English-language Wikipedia, but it is not the Wikipedia of the English-speaking countries. I entirely accept that most of the monarchs of the UK for some time are the primary topic, although I have some doubts about William IV. (Some of them are the only monarch of this name, so the question of primary topic doesn't arise.) We could have a problem when Princess Victoria of Sweden becomes monarch, may be soon as her father is 77. PatGallacher (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as convinced by nom's arguments. I am very much opposed to systemic bias. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per WP:CRITERIA the current name clearly wins out on consistency (cf. Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII, Queen Victoria) and concision. It is natural and recognisable and also geographically neutral (the proposal is systemically biased against the other Commonwealth realms). The OP dismisses these points far too easily in my view - they are very important here. With respect to precision, this is where WP:PRIMARYTOPIC comes in. This article is clearly the primary topic.
    This article regularly gets 20000 views a day, which is around 15-20 times more than all the other Charles III's put together. Charles III of Spain gets around 750-1000 views a day - not nothing, but many times fewer than this article. And this is not a short term trend. If we look at pageview statistics for George VI (died 70 years ago) or Edward VIII (abdicated 87 years ago after 11 months), they still routinely get more than 10000 views a day - ten times what Charles III of Spain gets. Forcing a disambiguation now would do a disservice to our readers who - overwhelmingly - are looking for Charles III. Kahastok talk 16:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Page view stats for 2023. Note the log scale (used because otherwise everything is drowned out by the coronation in May). Kahastok talk 17:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The guideline says "Where a monarch has reigned over a number of states, use the most commonly associated ordinal and state. For example, Charles II of England, not Charles II of England, Scotland and Ireland; Philip II of Spain, not Philip I of Portugal." For Charles, this is the UK. Would you instead suggest "Charles III of the Commonwealth realms"? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As I've always favoured going back to the "Name # of country" style, for monarch bios. That country (for this bio) would be the UK, rather then Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, or Saint Lucia, or New Zealand, etc. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Arguments for it are many, quite strong and have already been given above and at many discussions at WP:NCROY. There is no consensus giving British monarchs some privileged position. Just poor arguments. And in this case in particular, rather ridiculous. Charles III of Spain far and away has more long term significance. Walrasiad (talk) 17:15, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia, and this is clearly the wp:primary topic for "Charles III" in the English-speaking world. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it's the English Wikipedia, but it isn't "England's Wikipedia". We should be countering systematic bias, not fostering it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:55, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that's not the issue here. He's not only king in England, he's king of over a dozen countries in the English-speaking world. The name "Charles III" is usually translated in other languages anyway, so most Spanish speakers won't know their Charles III by his English name, but rather as Carlos III. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There's a difference between translating a name and titling an article Anglocentrically. Spain having "Carlos III" isn't greatly relevant; what matters is "is the article titled Charles III of Spain? In which case, what is this Charles III king of?" Following the guideline, it would be the UK. Whilst relevant, the other Commonwealth realms shouldn't be in the title. If we were striving for inclusivity, we'd have to have, for example, Queen-Empress Victoria or William II of Scotland and III of England. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The current title is perfectly fine. He's the overwhelming wp:primary topic and that's evidently demonstrable, for instance by pageviews. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Practically every British monarch will be the primary topic for their respective name and ordinal. Edward I and George II aren't going to lose the country from their titles any time soon; Charles III should have his as well. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:OTHERCONTENT. Charles III is unique in that he is king of more than one country. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further reply "Charles III is unique in that he is king of more than one country." Eh? Nonsense! There are umpteen other examples, including oddly enough Charles III of Spain, who was also King of Naples and Sicily. So do we re-name him, and if so what to? This is why WP:NCROY has sovereigns point 3. Also, the Spanish Wikipedia calls him "Carlos III del Reino Unido", they do not treat him as primary topic, neither does the French Wikipedia, although the German does. PatGallacher (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to Charles' uniqueness against the specific examples of Edward I and George II, not against every possible example. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:09, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Technically, speaking Charles III of Spain wasn't King of Naples and Sicily at the same time he was King of Spain (expect for a brief two month window). Upon succeeding to the Spanish throne, he had to abdicate the other thrones in favor of his younger son. Other points still stand though. 2601:249:9301:D570:909A:F52B:67C2:D58 (talk) 20:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    To pile on the examples, Charles III, Holy Roman Emperor (King of West Francia, East Francia, Aquitaine, Italy, and Alemannia), Charles III of West Francia (King of West Francia and Lotharingia), and Charles III of Naples (King of Naples, Hungary, Croatia, and nominally Jerusalem). Even excluding Charles III of Spain we have three other Charles III's who ruled multiple Kingdoms. BilledMammal (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. When considering through the lens of long term significance there appears to be no primary topic. It's possible that this Charles will have a comparable influence on the world to monarchs like Charles III, Holy Roman Emperor (the last emperor of a unified Carolingian Empire) and Charles III of Spain (ruled one of the world's largest empires, and was its final king before it began its decline under his successor), but he hasn't yet and per WP:CRYSTAL we shouldn't be predicting whether he will or won't. Further, per WP:RECENTISM, we shouldn't be given preference to him because he is recent. BilledMammal (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose notably per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, WP:CONSISTENT... Nothing has changed since the previous RFC. Rosbif73 (talk) 20:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:COMMONNAME isn't relevant when deciding whether to disambiguate, WP:CONCISE can be argued for both sides (Charles III of the United Kingdom is less concise than Charles III, but Charles III is more concise than Charles III (disambiguation)), and the proposed title is consistent with other articles on British monarchs who aren't the primary topic for their name (eg. Anne, Queen of Great Britain, George I of Great Britain, and George II of Great Britain). BilledMammal (talk) 20:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    But Charles III is the primary topic. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but there are other arguments beside his being the PRITOP. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    All of which are incredibly weak compared to all the arguments in favor of the status quo. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:CONSISTENT. Other than the fact that he's clearly the primary topic in this case (the page views attest to that), the format is consistent with that of his predecessors (Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII, William IV, George IV, George III, Elizabeth I, Edward VI, Henry VIII). Users also bring up the issue of bias but seem to forget that he's not just "King of the United Kingdom". He is also "King of Canada", "King of New Zealand", etc. Why should the United Kingdom be given a preferential treatment in this instance? Keivan.fTalk 23:34, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NCRAN. This individual is clearly not the long-term primary topic for this title, especially when compared with Charles III of Spain (also King of Naples and Sicily), who spent 29 years on the Spanish throne and separately 24 years on the throne of Naples and Sicily. The British monarchs are not special—they ought not take precedence over leaders who have far more long-term significance than them—and moving Charles III of the United Kingdom to have his article in line with the explicit naming convention seems most reasonable. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support
    While putting this idea into consideration, I contemplated 2 items that would be put into question whilst doing this.
    1) Time; is it truly the right time to make this change?
    2) Relevance; perhaps it might not be important in regards to his duty as King of the United Kingdom?
    My decision is that I support it.
    It is time to do so. There have been multiple Charles IIIs of different monarchies around the world as you can see the list here. Dukes, kings, other Charles IIIs in-question.
    I sought it relevant considering his duty as a monarch. Once he passes, and people search up Charles III after his death, maybe months after, they may not be looking for the King of the United Kingdom, which is perfectly why it is in regards to it. People search Charles III to broaden their searches for different persons of the same name that were royals and nobles, not just of the United Kingdom, so it should be.
    I'm hoping more people support it,
    BillClinternet (talk) 04:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This is WP:CRYSTALing at its finest. You're speculating about what people might be searching for years after his death, which could be decades away. But what article are people likely to be searching for RIGHT NOW when they search for "Charles III"? They are overwhelmingly likely to be searching for this article, and you know that. And that is why this article is the primary topic and should remain so. Now if that ever changes, like at some time after his death as you are speculating about, then the article can always be moved at that point in the future, but it should definitely not be moved now. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:54, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, there is absolutely no reason for this to succeed given nothing has changed since the prior failed request. Charles III is the primary topic as already highlighted, and this is consistent with the naming of recent past British monarchs. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 06:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. I can't see the current King as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Seeing how many other Charles IIIs there's been it does feel like it's a case of WP:RECENTISM Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 06:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The main point to consider is who the majority of readers are likely to be looking for when they search for "Charles III" today. Page views tell us that the vast majority are looking for the only living Charles III. The hatnote is there to help the minority who aren't. It may be, depending on how long and notable his reign is, that at some point after his death he might cease to be the primary topic for Charles III. But that'll be a decision for future generations of editors to take... Rosbif73 (talk) 06:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Clear case of recentism.★Trekker (talk) 06:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Of all our readers who might search for 'Charles III', the majority will be looking for this guy. Also, consistency with other British monarchs: Elizabeth II, George VI, etc. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 06:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This was already covered previously, Charles III as well has been the standard for the several British monarchs proceeding him, as well he is the monarch of several other commonwealth realms, so he is not just "of the United Kingdom". To simplify it to that is extremely simplistic and not a correct style to put. As well it is very important to note that nearly every reader who puts "Charles III" into wikipedia is looking for the British King, not any of the other Charles IIIs. I would argue that the idea of "Well they are named Charles III too" would also not really pan out in relation to the article Elizabeth II in relation to Elisabeth II, Abbess of Quedlinburg or Isabella II of Spain who is referred to as the "Spanish equivalent of Elizabeth II". CIN I&II (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. He is, unfortunately, also the king of Australia. His predecessors were Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, George V etc. His article should be labelled the same way. WWGB (talk) 07:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per OP's main reason Jarrod Baniqued (he/him) (talk) 07:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per description. This was clearly a result of WP:RECENTISM and WP:NATIONALISM. --ReyHahn (talk) 07:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Like i said in the previous request, i agree. He is not the only Charles III and all monarchs should be treated the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRichic (talk • contribs) 08:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on Wikipedia principle. I hated that last discussion and it's outcome so much, so many terrible arguments. I see some of them are even cropping up in this discussion too... But no, you shouldn't redo a whole discussion like this. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 07:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on balance. Primary topic is probably the strongest argument for the opposers. I don't see his other realms as an argument to oppose (Charles II of England?) I think what swings it to Support for me is convenience for the reader. When I came back to the article after the accession, just after it was renamed, I had to check the opening of the lead to make sure I got the right Charles III. I shouldn't have had to do that. I think adding "of the United Kingdom" does no harm but does a service to our readers confirming they have indeed landed where they expected to without further "effort" from them. Linking it to policy, I think for WP:CRITERIA, this comes under the Recognisability requirement. (I think the other UK monarchs should follow the same approach for the same reason.) DeCausa (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per previous discussion. Readers typing in "Charles III" are overwhelmingly likely to be looking for the present king. In the last 20 days 380,000 views for Charles III vs 18,300 for Charles III of Spain. A factor of x20 difference seems to me pretty clear-cut evidence of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Jheald (talk) 07:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The factor is a very modest x3 at most if all other monarchs with the same name are considered. Vpab15 (talk) 08:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I haven't confirmed your numbers, but if this article has 3 times as many views as all the other 18 Charles III monarch articles combined, then "modest" is a gross understatement. That's an overwhelming amount and is clear evidence of this article's primary topic status. Rreagan007 (talk) 08:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure how you calculate x3. Since the beginning of this month, the current Charles III has over 15x more than all other Charles IIIs combined, and over 20x more than Charles III of Spain. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I gave the link in the nomination ([4]). 17,718 out of 23,670 is 75%, or 3 times more than the others combined. The results can vary depending on which other Charles III articles are selected and which dates. There is a huge peak caused by the coronation for example. Vpab15 (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A man in my position at Category:Commonwealth Wikipedians and with my stake in the Robinson Treaties cannot afford to look foolish in front of this nominally foreign Crown. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is the primary topic per page views. Desertarun (talk) 07:35, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Agree with the previous discussion and the many well-reasoned points in opposition in this discussion. BCorr|Брайен 07:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – As Jheald comments (four above this), it is overwhelmingly probable that people typing in "Charles III" are looking for this one. If, in due course, that ever ceases to be true we can considerer moving to a longer title, but there is no case for doing so now, particularly as the man is king of several other important countries at present. Tim riley talk 07:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Of course there have been lots of Charles III's but most are only known by historians, whereas this one is known by millions worldwide and is clearly the primary topic. The number of views overwhelmingly reinforces that. Bermicourt (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENT. The proposed replacement of "Charles III of the United Kingdom" also fails WP:WORLDVIEW, as Charles is not just also king of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, the Solomon Islands and Tuvalu. - SchroCat (talk) 08:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    But also British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, independently and side-by-each (except the last two, kinda). InedibleHulk (talk) 08:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And I think New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland and Western Australia too?  — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Plus Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, Akrotiri and Dhekelia, Turks and Caicos Islands, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, of course... He must be a very busy king!!  — Amakuru (talk) 10:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There's no Monarchy in Queensland like there is Monarchy in Alberta (and so on). I think it has something to do with a lot of things. Could be mistaken. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per OP's main reason. Doomsday28 (talk) 08:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the overwhelming readership stats detailed by Kahastok above. As it is already apparent that there's no consensus for the move and its repetitious nature makes it vexatious, the discussion should be speedily closed per WP:SNOW. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per reasoning above including WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENT. IlkkaP (talk) 08:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'll give the same reason as I gave before. He isn't just King of one country but King of 15 independent and equal countries, whose monarchies are legally separate from each other. You're suggestion would only work if each of the 14 other Commonwealth Realms were to become republics, which I don't see happening in the majority of them. I agree with all other editors in opposition to this and hopefully this is the last time this comes up. GandalfXLD (talk) 08:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural close and oppose: this is the same proposal that just achieved consensus to not move the article. Despite supporting that one, I accept the consensus. This is not the way to contest a close. — Bilorv (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - nothing has changed since the previous proposal. The current primary topic clearly remains the most-read on that title. Long term significance will see his entire life, not just the bit at the end where he is King of many countries. Arguably, if the crystal ball shows several of them dump the monarchy and become republics during his reign, his significance as monarch will increase. --Scott Davis Talk 08:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I am not persuaded by the arguments about bias. That the article is a Good Article while none of the articles about other Charles IIIs are any better than B class is an example of systemic bias, but the page name is not. Page view stats indicate it is the primary topic. Nurg (talk) 09:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - as many have stated, nothing seems to have really changed since the last RM, plenty others have stated good reasons why not to move but additionally, comparison to apple doesn't work here since all the Charles III are monarchs and Charles III of Spain isn't a differnt kind of object commonly thought about. Pageviews are still relevant for establishing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC despite Spanish Charles' obejctive relevance to history. We don't normally name other historical pages based on impact or relevance either. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 09:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – We consider all five criteria of WP:CRITERIA when determining article names. Charles III wins out over Charles III of the United Kingdom on four of the criteria. The one on which is may not is precision; the discussion rests on whether King Charles is the primary topic for Charles III. The outgoing pageviews at [5](WikiNav) show that a large plurality (48.3% in June 2023) of outgoing pageviews for the disambiguation article are currently to the regining British monarch. Observation of [6](PageViews) shows that in the last month, Charles III received inordinately more pageviews than Charles III of Spain or Charles III disambiguation. Charles of Spain receiveds just 4.7% of the daily pageviews of the present article. My previous search of Google Books and a similar search of Google News also serves to demonstrate that the present monarch is the primary topic for the search term "Charles III". The demonstrate that Charles is the primary topic in terms of usage without a doubt.
    WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY says that While long-term significance is a factor, historical age is not determinative. Charles III is a current monarch and we cannot determine – and it is not for Wikipedia to do so, as per WP:CRYSTALBALL – the relative long-term significance of different persons with the title Charles III. While you say that "the long-term significance of the British monarch pales in comparison with other monarchs", we do not know this and merely having a ceremonial role over a political one is not determinative of significance. WP:PT2 is based on notability and educational value not how many soldiers one commands or how many decrees one makes (which technically King Charles does command an army & make decrees anyway, even if his actual political power is constitutionally limited). It is as easy to argue that King Charles will be more notable to future readers after his reign as it is to argue the opposite.
    WP:RECENTISM is an explanatory guideline which describes both the positive and negatives of recentism, as similarly is WP:WORLDVIEW – it cannot be violated, it is not a policy (not that Wikipedia policies can be violated anyway – WP:IGNORE (ignore all rules)). Nonetheless, as recommended in WP:WORLDVIEW, we can look at reliable, English-language news sources to incorporate a Global South perspective: [7] [8] (all indicating Charles III = this article's topic) [9] (indicating a mixture of "King Charles III" and "Britain's King Charles III". Finallly, although I dispute its policy relevance here, WP:NPOV says that If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English) and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as biased. Jèrriais janne (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to King Charles III, for consistency with Queen Camilla and the fact he's generally referred to as "The King"/"King Charles" so WP:COMMONNAME applies. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 09:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "King Charles III" violates WP:SOVEREIGN. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as nothing significant has changed since the recent identical move request was closed. This name is still the best for this article per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and each of the five points from WP:CRITERIA: recognisability, naturalness, precision, concision, and consistency. Narrowing its scope to just the United Kingdom would be ridiculous and break several of the name criteria given that the majority of his subjects are citizens of his other 14 realms. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - strange to bring this up again, repeatedly when this has been discussed, and under strange covers of evidence, the status quo remains, Charles III to the vast majority refers to the King of the UK and the other realms AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 10:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - He is the primary topic, and there is no need to reopen this discussion again. Furthermore, Charles III being monarch of Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. and head of the Commonwealth is more significant than also being monarch of "Naples and Sicily". In the case of Charles III, calling him "of the UK" is problematic because of the significance of his other realms and that his status in many are no longer libked to his status in the UK (after long fought reforms in many countries). The OP ignores this. Suggestions that the situation is analogous to the situation and significance of Naples and Sicily several hundred years ago misses the point entirely.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 10:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it is very different. Charles III of Spain personally conquered and ruled over Naples and Sicily and a huge global empire as an absolute monarch. The British monarch is just a figurehead with no real power. Vpab15 (talk) 11:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. It would be simple opposition if it were just pointing out WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, especially in light of readership statistics, but given that this is a rehash of a recently-closed requested move with nothing changing in the interim...this is a dead horse that need not be beaten. —C.Fred (talk) 11:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The opening paragraph of the argument does it for me - trying to argue that there are other equally notable Charles IIIs out there. There are other Charles IIIs but they are definitely not equally notable. Also if this has already been rejected why is there a second try? The Vintage Feminist (talk) 11:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Every possible reason to oppose this has already been listed here. Is there no rule against repeated failed requests like this? The first one was barely 8 months ago. There is consensus against the move, and I don't think that is going to change for as long as Charles is alive. --jonas (talk) 11:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is the Charles III being searched the most here in the Anglosphere. No one would be confused to have this as the title. We should be strive consise when possible, no? TheSavageNorwegian 11:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. All the monarchs from the last 260 years have their names written like Charles. I also agree that he is the main topic and is monarch of other Commonwealth nations. Bakir123 (talk) 11:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC the vast majority of our readers who search for "Charles III" are looking for this article. A quick check of the Page View Analysis for this article and some of the other Charles III pages, it clearly show 10s of thousands more hits for the UK Charles III than any other article Charles III article every single day! It is also WP:CONSISTENT with the other modern British monarch article titles: Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII, Queen Victoria, William IV, George IV, and George III. Additionally as per WP:COMMONNAME, he is called Charles III in English, if writing about or discussing any other Charles III from history, that person is labelled to distinguish him from the current UK monarch, not the other way around. ThinkingTwice contribs | talk 11:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose, I agree with C.Fred that this is a dead horse. People forget how notable Charles III of the UK is, for example he is the head of state of Belize. Sahaib (talk) 11:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - the dab page receives 65 views per day on average; even if we assume that every single one of them came after landing on Charles III first, that doesn't put the smallest of dents in the traffic that this article gets, at well over 18k per day. The idea that this article is not the PRIMARYTOPIC is ludicrous on its face. Parsecboy (talk) 11:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support per C.Fred; absolutely nothing more notable about this guy than the others. Although I can understand non-historians being blinded by bling. In fact, that goes for almost all modern constitutional monarchs: they will never have made the same impact as any of their predecessors... because they cannot. Albeit, the point about Belize above made me chuckle, thanks  :) SN54129
  • Oppose page views show a vast majority of hits for any of the Charles IIIs point to this Charles III (75% among the top ten persons who go by that name). Frank Anchor 12:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it is overwhelmingly likely that a reader from an English-speaking background who types in "Charles III" is looking for the subject of this article. The other candidates are far less well known. Charles III of Spain is probably the most prominent alternate candidate, but while he was a prominent figure in 18th century history he isn't widely known in the English-speaking world, and his article gets an average of fewer than 1000 hits a day, as opposed to this article which gets 15-30,000. This isn't recentism, as the subject of this article will continue to be the primary search term for a very long time, the last British monarch who isn't the primary search term for their name is George II of Great Britain (died 1760). While the current Charles III might not be the primary search term on the a timescale of 3-400 years, that's not a reasonable consideration to use when deciding the article title now. Hut 8.5 12:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - but this isnt going to happen, because the body of editors who decide these things, and the group of editors who instituted the move to begin with and then reversed the burden of consensus to move it elsewhere, are dominated by those who view this person of little power or importance even to his subjects (giggles) as being the only conceivable target for Charles III. But the nomination is policy based on all counts, this cant possibly be the primary topic as Charles III of England has existed for approximately 0% (slight rounding error but you get the point) of the time people have been writing about Charles III of Spain. It is simply hubris to claim that this Charles III will undoubtedly be the primary topic for Charles III for any length of time. In fact, I was planning on seizing power in Egypt and then expanding my empire to its former glory and giving myself the regal name of Charles III. nableezy - 13:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The living Charles III is quite obviously the primary topic that the vast majority of readers are accessing, and to send them to a dab page is a disservice. As this is a living encyclopedia, I do not think it's "hubris" to say Charles III will be the primary topic for at least the short term, as we can always move the page if Nableezy's coup is successful. Reywas92Talk 13:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support systemic bias and recentism (guising in the cloak of "consistency") are going to win this one, but in my opinion those are biases to be eliminated. Ribbet32 (talk) 13:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

  • Note: I have informed all the participants of the previous RM discussion about this discussion. Rreagan007 (talk) 08:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure that was appropriate; notifying 129 editors through talk page messages (presumably using some automated tool, given the rate of notification?) of an RM seems to verge on spamming; as that guideline says, More importantly, recruiting too many editors to a dispute resolution can often make resolving the dispute impossible. Remember that the purpose of a notification is to improve the dispute resolution process, not to disrupt it. BilledMammal (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No automated tool was used. I sent all the messages myself. And Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification clearly says: "An editor...can place a message...On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include...Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic." Rreagan007 (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:APPNOTE also says Do not send inappropriate notices, as defined in the section directly below, and do not send messages to users who have asked not to receive them. I'm not going to argue this, but I would strongly suggest you never issue notifications like this again, at least not without some prior discussion to determine whether such an act would be appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 09:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that I followed the guidelines at Wikipedia:Canvassing to the letter. The guidelines say that you can inform participants of a previous discussion on their talk pages if it is "Limited, Neutral, Nonpartisan, and Open". I limited it to just the participants of the previous discussion, and my message was neutral, nonpartisan, and open. In addition, my message was "polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief" as required by the guideline. It would have been impossible to only inform some of the participants of the previous discussion, as that would have violated the section which says "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it." Rreagan007 (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, I’m not going to argue it; I’ll just recommend that if you believe it is beneficial to notify such a large number of editors of a discussion in the future you do so using pings as it is less intrusive - that method is sometimes seen for RfC’s with broad impact, although I’ve never seen such wide notification for an RM.
    It would have been impossible to only inform some of the participants of the previous discussion FYI, I think you inadvertently did so; the closer said 240 took part in the previous RM but you only notified 130; even excluding the editors who have already contributed you’re still about 100 short; I think whatever method you used to populate your list was flawed. I wouldn’t be too worried about correcting that though; as long as the ratio of !support to !oppose editors is proportionate it isn’t an issue.
    BilledMammal (talk) 09:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I did try to avoid sending notifications to users who had already contributed to this current discussion, as well as avoiding sending to users who were banned for sockpuppetry and some IP addresses. I tried my best to send a notification to everyone else who participated in the previous discussion regardless of their position, but if I missed anyone it was inadvertent. Rreagan007 (talk) 09:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That seems right and proper - there was only a large number of notifications because there was an unusually high participation last time. Indeed, I would say that the perspectivess of those who participated last time could be particularly illuminating (though not carrying any special weight) if any had changed their views over time, one way or the other. Davidships (talk) 10:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t see anything inappropriate in their notice (I was one of the recepients), nor do I see anyone who explicitly asked not to receive such a message. Thus, I don’t see how what you cite here applies.Tvx1 09:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) x 3 I didn't receive a message (I didn't take part in the previous discussion), but I don't see a problem in having left a message for those who previously commented on the same RM topic. There was certainly not anything "inappropriate" in the messages or the execution of them in this instance. Either a message or a ping are perfectly acceptable ways of doing it. - SchroCat (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not see anything inappropriate in the message I was sent. Thank you @Rreagan007 for bringing this discussion to my attention. Jèrriais janne (talk) 10:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I'm surprised that wasn't done earlier, given the short period of time since the previous identical move request was closed. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for sending the notification. I believe this type of notification is entirely appropriate as long it is sent to all involved (outside of IP's, banned users, etc) so as to avoid the appearance of canvassing. This mass-notification was sent to almost all previous participants regardless of previous vote, so it is perfectly acceptable. Frank Anchor 12:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Charles_III&oldid=1166906174"