Jump to content

Talk:Germany

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 207.6.113.119 (talk) at 06:29, 18 April 2007. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Featured articleGermany is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 7, 2007.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 12, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
November 29, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
January 9, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Template:WP1.0

Guild homeHow to copy editTemplatesBarnstarsParticipantsCoordinators
RequestsDrivesBlitzesMailing listNewsletters
Talk:Germany/Top

Talk:Germany/Ombox

WikiProject iconGermany FA‑class Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
FAThis article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
"WP:WPC" redirects here. For the WikiProject on WikiProjects, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council. For the editing tool, see Wikipedia:WPCleaner. See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories and Wikipedia:WikiProject China.
Project Countries main pageTalkParticipantsTemplatesArticlesPicturesTo doArticle assessmentCountries portal

This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

WikiProject Countries articles as of May 7, 2024

What's new?

Articles for deletion

  • 13 Oct 2024 – List of ASEAN countries by IQ (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Chaotic Enby (t · c); see discussion (8 participants)
  • 28 Sep 2024 – Western Armenia Government in Exile (talk · edit · hist) AfDed by Yerevantsi (t · c) was closed as no consensus by Daniel (t · c) on 19 Oct 2024; see discussion (11 participants; relisted)

Categories for discussion

Redirects for discussion

Featured list candidates

Good article nominees

Featured article reviews

Good article reassessments

Requests for comments

Requested moves

Articles to be merged

Articles to be split

Articles for creation

To do list

Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Wikipedia, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

This WikiProject helps Wikipedia's navigation-related WikiProjects (Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Wikipedia's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Categories

Click on "►" below to display subcategories:
Countries
Click on "►" below to display subcategories:
WikiProject Countries

Subpages

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

  1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Wikipedia, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
  2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
  3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
  4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
  5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

Main article: Country

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

Shortcut
See also: WP:Lead section
For lead length see, #Size
Opening paragraphs
Further information: MOS:INTRO

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Wikipedia lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

First sentence
Further information: MOS:FIRST

The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is, and where. It should be in plain English.

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting and naming disputes, may be dealt with in the etymology section. Foreign-languages, pronunciations and acronyms may also belong in the etymology section or in a note to avoid WP:LEADCLUTTER.

Example:

checkY Sweden,[a] formally the Kingdom of Sweden,[b] is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
☒N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige [ˈsvæ̌rjɛ] ⓘ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige [ˈkôːnɵŋaˌriːkɛt ˈsvæ̌rjɛ] ⓘ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail and duplication

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article.

Example:

checkY A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
☒N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. [[Template:CountryName Infobox]]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

  • The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
  • The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
  • A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
  • A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
  • Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
  • The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
  • The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
  • The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
  • If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
  • Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
  • Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
  • GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
  • HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
  • Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: [[Australian dollar|dollar]].
  • Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
  • National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
  • Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
  • Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.
Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

Further information: Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Too much detail
Shortcut

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

  • Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
  • History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
  • Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
  • Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available.
  • Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
  • Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
  • Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
  • Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
  • See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
  • References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
  • External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links
Size
Shortcut
Main pages: Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Summary style § Article size
Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually four paragraphs as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.
  • Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
  • Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
  • Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,936 words) "readable prose size"
  • Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
  • Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
  • East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8152 words) "readable prose size"
  • Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9092 words) "readable prose size"
  • New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9761 words) "readable prose size"
  • Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9178 words) "readable prose size"
Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles shoukd be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

checkY== Economy ==

Main article: Economy of Canada

☒N== Economy ==

Main article: Economy of Canada

See also: Petroleum industry in Canada and Agriculture in Canada

Further information: Economic history of Canada and Early Canadian banking system

Charts

Shortcut

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams such as economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

Shortcut

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

This section is transcluded from Help:Transclusion. (edit | history)
Shortcut
Further information: Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

  • Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
  • Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Wikipedia articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Wikipedia articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Notes

  1. ^ Swedish: Sverige [ˈsvæ̌rjɛ] ⓘ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
  2. ^ Swedish: Konungariket Sverige [ˈkôːnɵŋaˌriːkɛt ˈsvæ̌rjɛ] ⓘ

Template:V0.5


Reasons for the West German "economic miracle"

I didn't think this discussion really belonged under the heading "Morgenthau Plan". "I would propose deleteing the sentence " The recovery occurred largely because of the previously forbidden currency reform of June 1948 and U.S. assistance through the Marshall Plan aid." I don't think it is possible to give one (or two) reasons for the "German Economic Miracle" in the space available here. The Marshall Plan no doubt helped. The dismantling policy (which some would regard as a remnant of the Morgenthau Plan) could also be credited with helping to modernize German industry. The currency reform doubtless played a major part, as did other policies of Ludwig Erhard (who is, surprisingly, not mentioned) in particular. One can, of course, find quotes to back up assertions that one particular thing was the principle cause. If you read the older Mundell, you may find that liberal (European use of the word) economic policies are stressed. If you read articles written 40 years ago (also by Mundell, if I recall correctly -- I can't provide cites at the moment) you will find a model that attributes the economic revival mainly to growth in the young working population (refugees, fugitives, reduction of concealed unemployment in agriculture, etc.). So, in my opinion, we should limit ourselves here to stating that there was an economic revival, popularly called an "economic miracle" (why use the German Wirtschaftswunder; I think "economic miracle" is established -- at least in the UK).--Boson 12:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to this statement by Nellov5 (talk · contribs)

Fussy logic used in that statement aside, please show, using sources, why the Marshall plan should take up space in the history of Germany section? I suspect that you are suffering under what appears to be a common German fallacy to believe in a fairly-tale myths about events in the late 40’s and early 50’s, for example by giving the Marshall plan far more credit than it deserves as regards German economic development.


Now, let me show you why it is a waste of space to include the Marshall plan:

Out of a total of $13 billion, Germany received only $1,4 billion, a large part of which was in the form of loans. To compare, the free aid received by other nations. France: $2,3 billion; Netherlands $1,2 billion; United Kingdom: $3,3 billion. Or why not compare it to what the Western Allies took out of Germany directly: Beginning immediately after the German surrender and continuing for the next two years the U.S. pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents in Germany. John Gimbel comes to the conclusion, in his book "Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany", that the "intellectual reparations" taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10,0 billion. Ref: Norman M. Naimark "The Russians in Germany" pg. 206. (Naimark refers to Gimbels book) So, with one hand they take almost $10,0 billion worth of know-how (halting all research in Germany for several years, since anything new that a German company invented also automatically was given to its U.S competitors whose representatives were free to take home to the U.S. all archives and documentation), while with the other "giving" $1,4 billion, a large part of which has to be repaid. (in 1953 it was decided that $1.1 billion was to be repaid to the U.S.)

Meanwhile, the U.S. and U.K. were still busy reducing the German economy in order to make sure that Germany would never have the strength to threaten the U.S. again. In occupied Germany the Morgenthau plan lived on in the "industrial disarmament" plans, designed to reduce German economic might and to destroy Germany's capability to wage war by complete or partial de-industrialisation and restrictions imposed on utilization of remaining production capacity. By 1950, after the virtual completion of the by the then much watered-out plans, equipment had been removed from 706 manufacturing plants in the west and steel production capacity had been reduced by 6,700,000 tons. Ref: Frederick H. Gareau "Morgenthau's Plan for Industrial Disarmament in Germany" The Western Political Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Jun., 1961), pp. 517-534

(Must have been good for business, take away German industrial machinery and all German patents and other technical know-how, then give Germany loans that can only be spent in north america thereby keeping the U.S. economy going strong when Germany eventually tries to rebuild what has been taken away.)

Or why not see what David R. Henderson has to say about the Marshal plan in regards to the German economic recovery: From German Economic "Miracle"


Nellov5 (talk · contribs): If you want to keep reinserting the Marshall plan into the history section, provide some secondary source that motivates that inclusion! As far as I can tell, you have no legs to stand on at the moment.--Stor stark7 Talk 13:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I'm not going to comment on Stor stark7s redundant elaborations about the Morgenthau plan (which already take up the biggest part of this page). The only reason why I posted under that heading was because I didn't want to start a new topic. This editor clearly has issues with America's post-war policy regarding Germany (which may be due in part to the widespread anti-Americanism in the Swedish educational system). It is telling that Wikipedia's German country page doesn't give any reasons for the "Wirtschaftswunder". They obviously understand that an overview of a country's history is not to include too many details. Stor stark7 should indulge in his obsession in the subarticles, but not here. "The recovery occurred largely because of the previously forbidden currency reform of June 1948.[12]". The new sentence suggests that the "economic miracle" occurred solely because of the currency reform, when clearly that is disputable at best. One economist's opinion is just that - an opinion, and no more valid than the article about the Marshall plan whose link was removed. I agree with Boson who states that we should limit ourselves here to stating that there was an economic revival. Which is why I have made the appropriate change. Nellov5 23:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see you’re taking the easy way out by accepting the exit offered you by Boson. Wise choice. I have to say that your little fictive analysis of the supposed "anti-Americanism" of the Swedish educational system was rather cute. Any source to back it up, or just a figment of your imagination purveyed as fact? I also note that you have trouble with the difference between the English words "largely" and "solely". As to one economists opinion, sourced opinion I might add, that is in fact quite a lot more valid than your inclusion of the Marshall plan without any source at all. As to my alleged "issues with America's post-war policy regarding Germany", I’m only interested in getting an as accurate and sourced picture presented as possible. If some peoples "un-sourced" illusions get broken by it, to bad. It is truly sad that so many people with such strong opinions on this topic seem to have read absolutely no literature about it, and yet persist in purveying their uninformed opinions as facts. Ever wondered why, more than two years after the cease fire in Europe, George Marshall started lobbying for a "European recovery program"? Why not read a quote by Ray Salvatore Jennings [1]
"The rest of Europe, previously dependent on the industrial base of pre-war Germany, continued its listless recovery. This vulnerability of Europe, the destitution of the German public, and continued concern over Soviet intentions moved the Joint Chiefs of Staff to join Clay in lobbying Truman to change course. By winter, Truman had sacked Secretary of State James Byrnes, replacing him with General George Marshall. By the summer of 1947, Marshall had successfully made the argument that JCS 1067 must be rescinded on "national security grounds" and replaced by JCS 1779."
Or to quote Vladimir Petrovs conclusion on the effects of U.S. policy in Germany: "The victorious Allies … delayed by several years the economic reconstruction of the war torn continent, a reconstruction which subsequently cost the US billions of dollars." Or why not read a concise explanation of the European state of affairs and Germany’s role in it in mid 1947 from the time in question, when at least the Americans finally seemed to have "seen the light". "Pas de Pagaille!", Time magazine--Stor stark7 Talk 01:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cencorship

Is there anything in this about the cencorship of violent video games?

Most of the censorship in germany you think of is really just some form of youth protection where advertising and selling of violent media to minors is prohibited. Adults can still buy and play the games, although it might be hard to find a shop selling them. I don't know if you want to call this censorship or not, but it it has very little impact on german society. There is also some full scale censorship in connection with the nazi heritage, the most prominent example is that selling copies of "Mein Kampf" is prohibited in germany.

AFAIK it's allowed to sell antiquarian versions of Mein Kampf.--217.85.95.65 20:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not allowed to be sold, but like many censorships has only made a highly suspicious product more attractive to ceratin target groups. 84.171.91.118 00:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is. "Owning and buying the book is legal. Trading in old copies is legal as well unless it is done in such a fashion as to "promote hatred or war", which is, under anti-revisionist laws, generally illegal." The only thing you can't do is sell newly printed books - because that would break Copyright Law. Lars T. 14:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Current_availability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany The German censorship is more than just youth protection, and it has impact on the German society (sometimes trange impacts, there was cases lately where people were tried because they had anti-nazi-symbols.

They were acquitted also 87.234.85.141 21:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The most censorship in germany will do the FSK (Movies) and USK (entertainment / computer). This are organisation of the movie and entertainment industry to control publication before going out. Agreement: The goverment don't make laws for censorship while we censoship our self. The appeal for crime or violence also agitation for hate isn't allowed in german media. marian (194.114.62.66 12:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Not satisfied with the map

I'm not very happy with the CIA map of Germany used in this article. For instance, why does it show the river Danube but not the Rhine which is at least as important to Germany in economics and history, probably even more important? Why does it show the rather small city of Emden in the northwest corner of the country but no city at all in the southwest corner - where Freiburg im Breisgau would be located, a city four times as large as Emden and historically very important? I have nothing against Emden, but that's an inconsistency a map in a featured article shouldn't exhibit in my opinion. Gestumblindi 19:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the reason is obvious: we don't have a better one (with the needed rights to free use) Lars T. 23:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hope there are some people here who could draw a better one (I can't, don't have such skills) :-) Gestumblindi 00:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm not too fond of the CIA maps myself.. Brutannica 07:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trying not to come off the subject too much, yes. The CIA maps are a bit...weird. The one of Germany, certainly, is a little off. P.S. I might be able to draw a new map, although by the time you read this there probably already is one. Ninington 21:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics Section Needs Changing

Minor little edit needs to be made. It says the German population is about 19% of foreign descent or at elast partially, when in fact the sources that were linked to back this statement up place the number as being somewheres along the lines of 8-9%, natural births of immigrants included. This should probably be changed.

CorneliusStump 08:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

can anyone tell me how has germany benefitted since it became a member of the european union and how germany has beneffited the european union since it became a memberSdarcy 17:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Infrastructure and Transportation needed!

There is yet no section about the 2 topics. Lear 21 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They were taken out during clean-up Lars T. 15:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is a standard section within country articles and should be reintroduced. Lear 21 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think that a mention of Germany's world re-known Autobahn and high-speed trains would definitely be worth a little section. Signaturebrendel 17:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Transport section was removed after the discussion about the featured article status because it is not standard in FA articles. Lars T. 22:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Lars T.:Which country-FA-article is meant, when it´s said to be not standard? All comparable industrialized country articles include Infrastructure and Transportation content. Especially Germany is well known for it´s dense mobility net. It is rather a question of relevance and priority. And in this case Hamburg harbour, Frankfurt Airport, Autobahn, ICE, Transrapid are almost crucial for the understanding of Germany. Lear 21 22:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Do you believe that other sections such as transport, which do not appear on other FA national articles." There isn't much more — you should ask User:TSO1D, he handled the whole FA process including editing almost on his own. Lars T. 19:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

he? Lear 21 23:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Germany has benifited from jopining the EU because now it has established itself as one of the strongest countries in Europe and the world. It is also getting many natural resources from other countries part of the EU that it does no have. I hope this helps you. Peace out. 21 March, 2007[reply]

Pronunciation

[ˈbʊndəsrepubliːk ˈdɔʏtʃlant] is wrong, it should be something like this: [ˈbʊndəsrepuˌblɪk ˈdɔʏtʃlant]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.88.205 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-21 (UTC)

my bad i was talking to the article above me 21, MArch, 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.242.126 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-22 (UTC)

I think [repuˈblɪk] is getting more common, but I believe it is still regional, with [repuˈbli:k] being preferred.
Duden Aussprachewörterbuch has:
  • ˈbʊndəs
  • repuˈbliːk
  • ˈdɔytʃlant ( with tie bars linking ɔy and tʃ )
So I would change the pronunciation to [ˈbʊndəsrepuˌb liːk ˈdɔ͜yt͜ʃlant] --
if I could get both tie bars to work properly.
--Boson 21:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Germany-article for Today's featured article !

Please comment at Today's featured article for this proposal. Lear 21 14:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures in Third Reich section

Someone replaced the previous picture of German soldiers at the Polish border with a picture of a bombed-out Potsdamer Platz from the postwar period. I think we should stick to pictures depicting events from the period in question. I don't mind another picture, but it should at least be from the Third Reich, and not showing the aftermaths of the war (which should be in the postwar section). I have therefore restored the original image.

Nellov5 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WW 2 is inevitably connected to Third Reich. The Potsdamer Platz aftermath image is taken in 1945 and is part of WW2 results caused by Third Reich. Lear 21 12:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but the caption clearly reads "Berlin in ruins AFTER WW2"! Thus the photo was taken during the postwar period, even if the destruction resulted from the war. I will revert to the previous image until a photo taken during the war is put up. Nellov5 19:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oooh you want to nitpick? That photo was taken 1945 July 9, over a month before WW2 ended (even if only in the Pacific). Lars T. 20:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nitpicking correct. Lear 21 23:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Potsdamer Platz pic should stay-it shoulds the devastating destruction caused WWII. Signaturebrendel 23:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

10 million dead?

the article says germany suffered 10 million dead in WWII, the highest I had ever heard was about 5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JohnHistory (talk • contribs) 05:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

World War II casualties, apparently supported by citations, gives a gigure of 7.5 million.--Boson 22:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Add to that the 2 million who died during the Expulsion of Germans after World War II and the thousands that died of malnutrition after the war. Lars T. 14:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The actual quote from the article (my emphasis): "The war resulted in the death of several million German soldiers and civilians, in total nearly ten million". Lars T. 14:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Allemagne"

Why does "Allemagne" redirect here with no explanation or mention of the term in the article?--24.22.147.202 00:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No idea why there needs to be a redirect, but it's simply French for Germany, and so does not need mentioning in the article. Lexicon (talk) 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Semi-Protection

A semiprotection for the article Germany would be much appreciated. Several unregistered users did their ongoing nonsense the last days. The upcoming appearance as Today´s FA - article on the Main Page (07.04.) will probably provoke more of it. 7 day- protection should be fine. Thanks in advance and all the best Lear 21 11:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it should be at least semi-protected. I have this on my watchlist from when it was on the main page, and it is still vandalized alarmingly often. --LuigiManiac 04:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My screw-up

Due to my recent edit, the article uses the "U.S.–German Economic Relations Factsheet" reference twice. However, I didn't and still don't know how to do that fancy thing where a reference that is used more than once is given the same footnote number. So now, ref. 22 and 23 are the same. I am very sorry for that and would be very grateful to the person who either fixes it or tells me how I can fix it (although I have to go offline now, and wouldn't be able to do it while the article is featured on the main page). Blur4760 00:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats!!!

Congratulations to all who made one of my favorites pages today featured article. Just watch out for vandalism, cuz it become pretty bad when the article is on the main page and sadly featured articles aren´t protected. Auf Wiedersehen!!! --ometzit<col> 00:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes great work, it 's nice to have important core topics like this high quality, really helps the credibility of the project. Trevor GH5 06:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WOOOOOOH!!! I'm a German myself, and it's extremely exciting to see this on the Main Page finally. Time to play some German patriotic songs...

Yeah, I'll bet it's gotten lots of Nazi references from vandals by now. Brutannica 07:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looks okay. Trevor GH5 15:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Cultural Influence

Would anyone like to work together to add on both this article and the German Culture article on the effects of Hermann Hesse's works on western youth culture? If you go to any school in the United States, Canada, or Great Brittan and you will hear of his works among those who are choosing the slackers way through school, and it has been so for some time. Steppenwolf has also influenced the band of the same name, of which have been extremely successful musically, and applying Hesse's ideas to their own work. --Taken By Robots 04:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would be a great idea- Hesse has a profound impact on me as a young man! Siddhartha and Demian were profoundly influential for me! Perhaps even a shout out to Hesse would start that and could be added to...! Alex Jackl 12:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just added a reference to Hesse. (It got wiped out but I think accidentally by editors dealing with the vandalism)Alex Jackl 13:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also added a reference to Heidegger due to his strong influence on philosophy overall. Despite the political controversies around him I doubt scholar's would question his influence on modern philosophy or that he was one of Germany's great thinkers.... Alex Jackl 13:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find this irrelevant to the article (Hesse). What exactly does "those who are choosing the slackers [sic] way through school" mean? That is subjective to the point of being derogatory. I don't see how a "slacker" could find any inspiration in a novel like The Glass Bead Game. Furthermore, there are some German authors that probably deserve mention before Hesse, such as Nobel laureates Grass, Boll and especially Thomas Mann. Timocrates 13:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I 100% agree that Boll, Gunter Grass and Thomas Mann should be mentioned. I just don't think it is "instead of " Hesse. Let's add them! I think Germany's literary contributions are a critical part of its story! I don't get the slacker thing either, but it doesn't change Hesse's prominence.Alex Jackl 13:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize, I meant to say those who aren't taking the slackers way though high school. --Taken By Robots 20:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Slavs?

In this edit, Slavs are removed from the list of peoples persecuted by the Third Reich regime, with the reason that it "implies that Slavs were persecuted to the same extent as Jews", while leaving every other group that also suffered to some extent, though I'd have thought all not to the same level as Jews, and probably in most cases, not even as much as Slavs. I didn't change it back, as there may be reasoning either way, and I'm not entirely sure if what I'm saying is right, but my personal opinion is that they either didn't read it properly, which is probably most likely, or they have some personal bias for Jews, or against Slavs. --86.130.29.170 10:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I restored the Slavic peoples reference not because I have a strong opinion about it or any statistics either way but that the removal seemed somewhat arbitrary- there are many races/cultures/types of people listed on the list there of people who were persecuted and killed by the Third Reich. Who knows how many of each and what order of precedence. Frankly, even if I knew, I wouldn't add that information- I think that that is too much detail for a general article like this. If someone feels strongly about the Slav/no-Slav deal let's talk about it on the talk page. I think given the article's public prominence right now it is even more important that we be conservative in our editing. Danke!! Alex Jackl 12:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Austria and the Anschluss?

I can't believe this wasn't mentioned in the post-Weimar/pre-WWII section. BipolarBear 15:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History sections of country articles are meant to provide an overview of a specific period in a country's history, thus only covering key events. The section in question is called "The Third Reich", the article doesn't contain a separate "post-Weimar" or "pre-WII" section. It was the invasion of Poland that triggered WWII, not the "Anschluss". The sub-articles (WWII, Nazi Germany, etc.) are the place to look for regarding a complete list of the Third Reich's conquests - before or during the war.

Nellov5 21:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Great Power"

Germany was classified as a "great power" in 1871-1918 — when the term was widely used to describe France, Germany, Britain, Russia, the U.S. and, arguably Italy and Austria-Hungary. I suppose Germany was again briefly a "great power" during the Nazi nightmare, but I don't believe it's applicable to today's Germany in the context of present-day politics. Very few contemporary Germans would choose to describe their country as a Grossmacht, as their grandparents or great-grandparents would have.

Today, the "great powers" (the term is no longer widely used) are the U.S., Russia, China and, arguably, the U.K. Sca 15:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See article on great power. It´s a standard term in Wikipedia country articles. Lear 21 15:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I saw it, and disagree with what it says. The term "great power" is outmoded, archaic — and basically has been since the end of WWII. Sca 15:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That´s why it is coined 'modern'. Lear 21 16:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sca, "great power" is subjective and should not be used in country article intro's. Perhap's "The Federal Republic of Germany, with Europe's largest economy, is an economic power" would be better. --A.Garnet 17:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Although I understand the POV sound of the term, I actually disagree. The World Wars wrecked Germany and it's not what it once was, sure, but it's still Europe's largest economy, the world's third largest, and one of the three main powers in the EU. Plus there's a chance at a permanent UN Security Council seat (maybe??). I think it deserves the status, and I don't think the term is outdated, either, just not used as much. ("Great powers" have existed throughout history, really, as have superpowers in my opinion.) Brutannica 07:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sonderweg?

Shouldn't there at least be an obvious link to the Sonderweg page considering that it is considered crucial by many historians (refer to actual article for more info) to understanding the influence that germany has undeniably had on western history in the 20th century? its probably to big to have a large explanation in this article, but i still think that it should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Movingpictures100@hotmail.com (talk • contribs) 16:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

What is the oldest text in German Language?

If somebody point to the internet high resolution scans - thanks . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.244.169 (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Is Mozart "German" ?

Why is Mozart listed as an example of German composer ? He was Austrian. I would suggest Johannes Brahms as the third example (to complete the " 3 B's" of music ) Wentu Wentu 22:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an old question, but Mozart indeed was a German. He was born in the Archbishopric of Salzburg, which then was a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. His father was from Augsburg in Bavaria. And not least: Mozart considered himself a German composer. --Happolati 23:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely because he was born in the Archbishopric of Salzburg, a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation but not of Austria, and spent most of his time in Vienna, which was then part of the Archduchy of Austria, again a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Austria did not secede from the rest of Germany until the Austro-Prussian War of 1866. Interestingly enough, that war is also known as the German-Prussian war in Austria and Germany, and the "German" in that designation refers to Austria. The point being: it is nonsense to speak of Austria as an entity seperate from Germany for any time at least before 1866, if not 1945 (You may want to look into the article "German Austria" regarding that last date). While it may be a valid question, I cannot help but think of the end of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus every time someone says "Mozart was Austrian, not German". Blur4760 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then what do you make of Finnish composer Jean Sibelius? He was born in what was part of the Russian Empire at the time, the Grand Duchy of Finland. Does that make him a Russian composer? Calling Mozart a German composer seems a bit of a stretch, IMO. Nellov5 23:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Finns were still an ethnic group apart from Russians during that time. The concept of an Austrian ethnicity independent of a larger German nation did not exist during Mozart's lifetime, because Austria was never an entitity disconnected from a bigger Germany until they were forced to withdraw from the German confederation after 1866. They were always part of the HRE and always a part of the German confederation. Austria proper during Mozart's lifetime was as German as Bavaria or Brandenburg, or whatever part of the Kingdom of Germany (a constitutent part of the HRE) you want to pick populated by German-speaking people. (By the way, Austria was part of the Kingdom of Germany). The series of events that lead to Austria being no longer a part of Germany cannot be identified before the end of the HRE. On what basis would you claim that the German-speaking parts of the Habsburg dominion that were both within the HRE and the Kingdom of Germany (as opposed to German-speaking parts of Bohemia) were any different than the German-speaking parts of Brandenburg-Prussia that were within the HRE and Germany? Blur4760 00:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS: If you can read German, read this. While I am unsure about whether Austrians form a people apart of the Germans nowadays and while there may be more scholarly essays about the question, it is an illuminating article on how German Austria considered itself to be before 1945. Blur4760 00:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PPS: I withdraw the implication that Bohemia was outside the titular jurisdiction of the Kingdom of Germany. The three titular kingdoms of the HRE were Germany, Italy and Burgundy, and in fact, during Mozart's lifetime almost the entire empire seems to have been constituted by the Kingdom of Germany. Doesn't change the fact though that Austria was part of said kingdom. Blur4760 01:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It all comes down to the German concept of equating ethniticity with nationality. A concept that is not used or accepted in other countries such as France or Great Britain. By this definition, Hungary's national composer Franz Liszt wouldn't be Hungarian because he was born in the Habsburg empire, was of German ethniticity, and never even learned how to speak Hungarian fluently. Yet he considered himself a Hungarian. Likewise, Finland's national composer Jean Sibelius wouldn't be Finnish, since he was born into a Swedish-speaking family that belonged to that other ethnic group called "Finland Swedes". The Fins and the Swedes are completely different ethnic groups and their languages have nothing in common. I therefore find this German concept to be quite outdated and a relic of the 19th century. WIKIPEDIA's country article about Austria states that Beethoven spent most of his life in Vienna, yet he is not called an Austrian composer (as opposed to the other names mentioned there). Everyone knows that he was born in Bonn, while Mozart was born in Salzburg. The difference is one of geography - seen from today's perspective - and not of ethniticity. Regardless of redrawn borders of the past. (Nellov5 02:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)).[reply]

I completely- and respectfully- disagree! I think the problem is the OPPOSITE one- we try to interpret the past form the "redrawn borders of the" PRESENT. We have to look at any historical figure or event in the context it was happening in. In Mozart's time he was German - period. No question at all. Salzburg was not an Austrian city - it was a German city. That is why it is a little foolish to do that- otherwise do you say that a Mayan in 900 was a citizen of Mexico? No - they were part of the Mayan Empire. Saying anything else makes no sense. Alex Jackl 05:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seems this is a contentious issue. To add to the confusion, "A spokeswoman from the Austrian embassy in London told BBC News Online said that Mozart was neither German or Austrian as he came from Salzburg when it was its own city state". Raymond Arritt 05:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it possible that this state fell under the protection of the HRE, though? There were many states that existed like that at the time. I personally think he should be called a German composer. If I were to invent the time machine and 150 years from now the east and west US split, would I in 300 years be called an "Eastian inventor?" (just to make up some ridiculous term for what the Eastern US might be called under the newly formed robot dictatorship ;-)). If I'm not mistaken, this is the issue at hand. If he considered himself a German composer, that is the most important thing. JHMM13 05:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let me get this straight: To you Liszt was Hungarian because he considered himself Hungarian — but Mozart was Austrian because you say so, despite Mozart calling himself a German. While we're at it — is Bruce Willis (born in Idar-Oberstein) a German? Lars T. 11:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To understand the german-austrian development it is better to read Kleindeutsche Lösung. That Austria is not "german" today has a couple of reasons. Which historic person is german or from Germany was also discussed in the de.wikipedia. One result was, that the term Deutschland or Teutschland (Germany) has been used since the 16th century. This term included Austria in the 18th century. But I think it is acceptable not to state austrian persons of history as germans, due to the independence of Austria in presence. Geo-Loge 09:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about all the Habsburg emperors of the HRE and Kings of Germany? Would you say they were not German, even though they were Kings of Germany and Empererors of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, only because Austria is an independent country today? Blur4760 09:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is Augustus II the Strong polish due to he was King of Poland? I do not think so. Geo-Loge 10:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the same argument you can say, that the Queen is german due to the Windsors are the renamed german House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. It is difficult to define nationality of monarchs by their functions and places of ruling. Geo-Loge 10:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
@Geo-Loge Personally, yes I would say that Augustus the Strong was Polish. He is listed as a Polish and Lithuanian monarch. Regardless of that question however, your examples of Augustus and Elizabeth II differ from the Habsburg emperors. The Habsburg emperors were kings of Germany and emperors of the HRE at a time when Austria was an integral part of both Germany and the HRE. But neither was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a part of Saxony, nor is the Queen currently Queen of a constituent country of an overarching German kingdom or German-Roman empire. Blur4760 15:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well the Habsburger as well as Augustus the Strong were monarchs in personal unions concerning primary their own princedoms and some additional functions. All three example of monarchs ruling somewhere are quit different, you right, but at least you can state, that an austrian monarch has been in a political function concerning Germany (or the Holy Roman Empire of german nations). As like as Augustus was King of Poland the Habsburger were Kings of Bohemia. But both only ruled this nations on power interests; August became King by repress the french François Louis, Prince of Conti. Of course the Emperor state of Germany differs from that, but due to the separation of Austria, I would prefer to see them as austrians in a german position. Geo-Loge 21:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Nellov5: Well, for starters I believe Liszt was not born in the HRE or what was considered to be Germany at that time, because the Burgenland belonged to Hungary. Secondly, I wonder if any one would consider Agrippina the Younger to be German. She was born in Cologne afterall. What about Charlemagne? Is he German? I would say no, because when he was born, there were no German people. Likewise, there was no Austrian nation seperate from Germany during Mozart's lifetime. Thus, I don't think my argument can be boiled down to "equating ethniticity with nationality". It comes down to using todays categories of nationality (Austrian vs German) that make no sense in a past that simply didn't make any difference between the two. PS: I am not saying Mozart was not Austrian. PPS: There was of course a difference between Austrian and German during Mozart's lifetime. The same there is between German and Saxon or German and Brandenburgian or German and Bavarian. The one is a subset of the other. Blur4760 09:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Geo-Loge: I don't want to stray to far away from Mozart, and I feel that discussing the "nationality" of Monarchs will do exactly that. Coming back to Mozart: when you say seperation of Austria, please tell me what in your opinion seperated the Archduchy of Austria proper from the rest of Germany? Was it the fact that the Habsburger at the same time ruled territories that were outside of Germany? That is the same case for Brandenburg. Both Brandenburg and Austria were territories ruled by monarchs who held territories outside of Germany and the HRE. But no one would argue that anyone living in Berlin during Mozart's lifetime was not German. Why then exclude the possibility that being German and being Austrian were not mutually exclusive, but complementary, just like being German and Brandenburgian were complimentary? Only because Austria was forced to withdraw from the German Confederation 80 years after Mozart's lifetime and took another 80 years to develop a completely seperate national identity. Or do you exactly mean that separation, a seperation that did not take place during Mozart's lifetime but only much later. Then you retroactively apply today's categories of nationality. However, such retroactive application cannot be consistently achieved. What would be the criterion to decide if someone was German or Austrian? Parentage? Place of birth? Domicile? According to which borders? Modern or historical? Self-identification is not feasible because you cannot except a historical person to correctly identify itself according to modern categories. So why even bother? Why not simply allow the possibility that a person's nationality is determined by the criteria that suit the time period during which it lived. And does anyone seriously argue that the Archduchy of Austria was not part of Germany during the 18th century? PS: Someone may find it illuminating to read the discussion here. If the Mozart article himself states he is German (and Austrian), shouldn't the Germany article do the same for consistency's sake, until valid arguments are put forward that lead to both articles being changed? Blur4760 22:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem I see is, that both concepts are equipollent: You can say Mozart is german due to Austria was a part of the german states in the historical context of Mozart. On the other hand you can see that Mozart is not a german due to Austria is seperated in the presence and seperated it's history in 1866. I think, I am misunderstood: I have not argumented for the last concept. May be there is no logic solution as well as only few arguments on both concepts. Geo-Loge 10:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article sees Today´s Germany as a successor state to the Holy Roman Empire, where Mozart is born. It is not inaccurate to place him here. A German TV-Show "The Greatest Germans" included Mozart, which, at the time, triggered the same controversy but was answered with the HRE argument. Lear 21 12:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Results for Today's featured article & Happy Easter!

WikiCharts — Top 1000 (Out of 1.72 Million) ! Germany article in March : Views per day 11 032 (rank 112.)[2] Germany article in April so far : Views per day 23 143 (rank 38.) [3] Lear 21 15:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

who cares? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.226.66.70 (talk) 21:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Section Infrastructure needs Expansion!

Please use Transport in Germany for new content. All modes of transportion should be mentioned. Lear 21 15:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Transrapid in Shanghai?

Under the "Education" heading this is a picture of the Transrapid in Shanghai. Is there a legitimate reason for its existence, or should it be deleted? Britney-Boy 03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Transrapid is genuinely produced and invented by several German firms and cooperations with German universities. Lear 21 14:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Slow revert war over EU flag

I'm requesting that those disagreeing over whether or not to include the EU flag in the infobox disuss things rather than continually reverting. I don't really care whether or not it's included, although I do think it's important to note that WP:FLAG, which is being cited as a reason for removal, is an essay, not policy or even a guideline. Heimstern Läufer 00:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The flag documents an official symbol used by all EU member states :[4]. It has almost a status comparable to the national flag. It is a vital part of the article and signalizes the degree of integration. Lear 21 11:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last paragraph, comment RE "NEO NAZI"

Last paragraph states "Many Germans (formerly displaced persons, and NO NEO NAZIS!) still see These areas as German, and fight for there restitution."

As an outsider to Germany, this seems a little ambiguous and I was wondering if it would be possibly to go in more detail. As well the "NO NEO NAZIS!" remark seems a little emotional... seeing as it is in caps. Could it be re-stated in a manner more fitting of an encyclopedia? Normgibson 03:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I fixed it, as well as the grammar and spelling in that section, I'm not sure if I should just get rid of the section, because that section was all done by the same person. I don't know if the rest is true. Can anyone with more knowledge in this area check that section over for truth and verifiability? --LuigiManiac 03:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The german flag and emblem are pictured as the old nazi ones, and have been for a while

I thought this was a semi-credible site, i guess not. 207.6.113.119 06:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&oldid=123745719"