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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Paulleblanc (talk | contribs) at 04:54, 14 April 2008 (→Nominations). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.
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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache

Shortcut

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:

Nominating

How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

Shortcut
  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.


Nominations

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 19:38, 19 April 2008.

The General in His Labyrinth

I'm nominating this article for featured article because our group has put a huge amount of work into this project. We have already received good article status and have gone through a critical review process since then. We are also still all actively involved and will respond to any comments or suggestions. Co-nom: User:Carlaty, User:Eshiu, User:Jbmurray. Paulleblanc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulleblanc (talk • contribs) 04:52, April 14, 2008

Article stats

Jbmurray 210
Eshiu 170
Carlaty 153
Qp10qp 104
SandyGeorgia 71
Paulleblanc 56
Yomangan 52
Wassupwestcoast 44

As usual, my edit count is inflated by frequent little MoS fixes and ref cleanup, and I added Wikilinks and other Spanish-language help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

* Oppose A good third of the citations are primary source and they are not in the plot summary area where they would be expected. These primary source citations are, however, in the character sections, which makes me weary. I also don't know if various language publication are really needed - such a trend would be awful when documenting works like Harry Potter. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Number four primarily, and maybe a little of two. Its not a book report, so some criticism and third party view is rather important. We aren't Cliffnotes, after all. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is possible that you actually meant to say "makes me wary": cautious rather than tired. Geometry guy 09:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, let's not start a discussion of the word choice. With regard to the citations, they are present in the character section to help differentiate the historical figures from the fictionalized versions. The analysis does not use any primary source citations as far as I'm aware. I also initially suggested removing the publication history, but it does illustrate the book's history outside South America, and it isn't intrusive. Think of it as an appendix if you will. Yomanganitalk 10:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I changed my mind to Oppose for the following reason - if the sections differentiate between "fiction" and "real" people, and you have only primary sources, then your sections are WP:OR. Please, find third party citations that examine the text and point out how it is different or similar to the real life people. I assumed it was just plot summary, but your statement shows that it is not. Oh, and all of those "Garcias" are primary sources, Yomangani. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing that out, I missed all those littering the analysis. Yomanganitalk 15:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone through the "Characters" section adding cites and adjusting wording in order to meet Ottava Rima's objection, which I hope that he/she will now be willing to withdraw. I was able to find references that clearly indicate that Garcia Marquez based the portraits of Bolivar and Manuela Saenz on their historical counterparts. I was not able to find anything similar for Santander and Sucre (probably because it is not something critics are going to bother to say, specifically, since it rather follows from the novel being based on historical characters and events as a whole). What I did in those cases, therefore, was, as Jbmurray has done with Palacio, simply tweaked the wording so that the historical figures can be verified as such from pure history books, and I cited the sentences to Lynch or to Slatta and De Grummond. The readers are now left to deduce that those characters are based on the historical characters of the same name, without our making the synthesis for them. In connection with Awadewit's point below about the "Minor Characters" section, that has now gone (see article talk). Though done for a different reason (superfluity), this measure has had the effect of removing, I think, any other instances of what Ottava Rima objected to. qp10qp (talk) 01:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Find a source for the minor characters and their background, and you will have my support based on good faith on the rest of the additions. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As you know, that was a new version of the section, added yesterday. I have combed through it and most seems to me a straight description of the characters as they appear in the book. I've changed the wording in the last part and added refs to Seymour Menton to add the backing of a secondary source. See also my comment on the talk page. I hope you will now feel able to support. qp10qp (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as co-nominator, and as a significant contributor to the article. But I'd like to point out that the credit goes to my fellow co-nominators: Carlaty, Eshiu, and Paulleblanc. This is a fine piece of work. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 05:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you really "support" it if you are claiming yourself as co-nom? I think you would already be included at the top. Otherwise, it would be silly. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well the explanation for nomination is what I wrote. Why can't he add an independent reason for nomination? Paulleblanc (talk) 06:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also I don't believe supporting nomination is the same thing as supporting an article for FA status. I supported nomination, but I don't necessarily support FA status yet because I imagine some valid suggestions will be made during this process that will have to be addressed. So I don't believe it's trivial for Jbmurray to point out that he supports this page recieving FA status. Paulleblanc (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Significant contributors should declare their participation in their Support, as Jbmurray did; I look for support independent from significant contributors. I'll post the article stats above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose Was at first a bit worried by the character sections, but they seem appropriate to me after looking closer. Primary sources seem only to be used when directly quoting the text, which seems to be done enough, but not too much. Character sections seem an appropriate place for primary sources in my mind. International listings can stay or go. I'm really indifferent either way and also think that, either way, the article is an FA. Wrad (talk) 05:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to Oppose. Rima is right. There are some citation problems in the characters sections. Whenever you say "this person is based on a real historical figure" you need a third-party source. Wrad (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure I understand this objection, and I've just re-read the section at issue. It would help if you could point to specific sentences that you think are of concern. Thanks. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For my complaint, see here. Moved to talk page to avoid clutter on FAC. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is the old "likely to be challenged" chestnut. If we said that the characters were based on García Márquez's pets and neighbours and not the Liberator and his contemporaries then, yes, we'd need a third party source. Here, I don't think so. Yomanganitalk 15:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • José Palacios, Bolívar's closest aide-de-camp in the book, a character based on a real historical figure.

*Comment The publication history would probably benefit by having all the various translations inscribed into a table. Further more, why does the Italian translation have two dates, while none of the others do? Kaiser matias (talk) 05:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I went ahead and added a table for the article, but alas, I'm not so crafty with using tables myself. I left in the second date for the Italian translation and will let the main contributers decide what they want to do with it. Nice article to read, very well-detailed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaiser matias (talk • contribs) 1:06, April 15, 2008
Re. the Italian translation... the source (which is a García Márquez bibliography) gives two dates. Frankly, I have no idea why.
I don't know how to do tables (whenever I try editing one I almost invariably break it), but personally am open to the idea of putting this info in a table if that is the consensus view. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, when I first put this information on the article, I had noticed the two dates for the Italian translation as well. I thought at first that it may have been the only language that has had two published version. But I don't suppose that would make sense given the number of English versions. Would it be better to simply delete the second date for the Italian translation? And I think a table would look good as well, but I am relatively new to Wikipedia and do not know how to do these. Eshiu (talk) 23:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 14:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed this one. --jbmurray (talk
  • You've given links for a number of articles that are in JSTOR, etc. Keep in mind that a lot of folks won't be able to access those, and that they really should give a "fee required" note in the reference.
We're aware of this. How best to do this with our citation templates? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To quote Sandy "I don't do Citation". I know how to do it with cite, but you can't mix cite and citation, and no need to switch to the different system now. Maybe someone who speaks "citation" will help. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know Cite news offers a "format" parameter to do this, but I couldn't find anything for Citation. BuddingJournalist 19:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You don't mix up the Cite with the Citation templates, I guess they don't play well together, so... Did you take out the JSTOR links? If so, this becomes a moot point. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's the educational wing of the OAS. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. What are you citing to them? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They republished an excerpt from an out-of-print book used to cite the "Numbers and religious symbols" section. If anyone can get hold of the book and cite the page numbers it can be replaced. Yomanganitalk 14:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you can't, I can probably live with it. I was more worried that someone might consider it some sort of political site, OAS doesn't always have the best rep for political stuff. Yes, the original would be better, of course. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There was some discussion of exactly this point on the talkpage. Yomanganitalk 15:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All links checked out as good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Pardon my ignorance. The section Reception says that the book was "relatively poorly received in the United States" but then goes on to say that the critics were fulsome in their praise and that it was in the NYT best sellers' list. Doesn't this constitute a contradiction ? I understand that the 'poverty' was "relative", but the impression that one gets from the section is that the reception was mixed all over the world, and it was relatively better in US of A. Cherian Nair (talk) 14:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to finesse this. I think that the point is that it was a critical success in the US, but generally the public didn't take to it; and the point about the Latin American response was that the book stirred up political controversy, because of its treatment of a revered historical figure. Do my changes help clarify this? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 16:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Makes more sense. Cherian Nair (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This article is comprehensive, well-written, and appears to be well-researched (I'm no expert in the field, good thing we have a class and their professor working on the article!). All of the images are either in the public domain, covered by a commons license, or have a sufficient fair use rationale. Here are some small suggestions for improvement:
  • Please remove the links to JSTOR, etc. from the bibliography - only people at your university can use them. They are useless to me, for example, even though I have access to JSTOR through my university. See WP:LINKSTOAVOID.
Thanks for the suggestion, I have removed the JSTOR links. Eshiu (talk) 23:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is it just me, or do I hear the faint sound of a kitten crying? Oh, well. Eshiu is in charge here. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I just fully understood the above comments on adding a note that says "Fee required". I would actually rather keep the links and add that note, but is there a way to do it? Perhaps I should restore the links while searching for a way to add the note? Eshiu (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's leave things like that for now. We're also discussing the issue at the FAC for Mario Vargas Llosa. It'd be nice to get a consensual ruling, but I wouldn't want to hold this FAC up. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion at the FAC for MVL appears to have moved towards keeping JSTOR links as long as they correspond to cited references. Geometry guy 07:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay perfect, I will begin putting the links back. Thanks for the confirmation, I had also been watching the discussion on MVL. Eshiu (talk) 17:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to add a note, then "Subscription required" or "JSTOR subscription required" is better than "Fee required". However, such a note is entirely optional. Geometry guy 20:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would suggest deleting the "Minor characters" paragraph. It doesn't add anything to the article and sounds listy. The reader doesn't remember all of these characters and the article doesn't rely on it.
I agree that there are a lot of minor characters in the novel and we have already selected the ones that tend to reappear in the novel more than once. Though I do agree that some of the minor characters may not be adding much to the article, such as General José María Carreño, but I also feel like characters like Miranda Lyndsay and O'Leary are rather important. But if there is consensus that all the minor characters should be removed, then I will remove them. Eshiu (talk) 23:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I didn't see your comment and provisionally removed the section while addressing Ottava Rima's queries about the "Characters" section above. The "Minor Characters" section is now on the talk page. Please put it back into the article if you disagree. Or you could re-add one or two to the remaining "Characters" list, if you think they are major. El Señor Presidente apart, though, it is unusual for an article on a novel to enumerate all the minor characters like this. I think the reason there seem so many in this book is that the General is flashing back through all the major events of his life, and that all these minor characters act as figments of his memory and consciousness—but they do not actually drive the plot, in my opinion. qp10qp (talk) 01:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Trying to split the difference, I have just added back in a reduced version of this subsection. I've also tried to make sure it is less of a list, and more a contribution to the reader's understanding. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like the new version a lot more. It is much more holistic. Awadewit (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we find out who painted the portrait of Bolivar and give that person credit?

I very much enjoyed reading this article - another MMM novel for my amazon.com wish list! Awadewit (talk) 17:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, beware with that wishlist! This is part of what one of the students said about the course: "I really learned a lot from this course, and was very impressed by the prof, by how he could make some boring texts interesting." Heh. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know if you want me track down the author of the painting; the website is in the internet archive, but the archive.org links are dead right now (we can check tomorrow). If necessary, I can send some e-mails or make some phone calls. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
'Twould be magnificent! Many thanks. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See article talk page: both Yomangani and I concluded it would be quicker and easier to upload a new image. Elcobbola (talk · contribs) could be very helpful, if you all are nice to him  :-) ... he did image work on Ima Hogg, and understands all the image requirements. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always nice! I'll go be nice in person...  :) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Excellent article. But I've just copy-edited the Plot summary section, and was disappointed in the prose in a few places, which isn't on the level of that in the opening (NB a few of my edits were inconsequential, but some were not). Let's be very fussy when we're writing about the work of a great, great writer. I've left inline queries here and there. I hope the rest of the article will be better when I get to it! Tony (talk) 02:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We've addressed the specific notes you left inline, for which much thanks. I'll go through the text again tomorrow, in the light of the models you've provided in the section you copy-edited. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know Im a bit of a noob, but what does MOS stand for? Carlaty (talk) 02:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get him started. (Only joking.) qp10qp (talk) 03:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, the title is fine. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Capitalization, "Book titles, like names of other works, are exempt from 'lowercase second and subsequent words'."
Carlaty, MOS (or MoS) stands for Manual of Style, Wikipedia's copy-editing Bible of sorts. You should have a look; it is an important page for FACs (where we are now). Waltham, The Duke of 03:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • PPS The second map appears to show current countries ("Columbia" (sic), and a border between it and Panama, whereas on the first, historical map, there is no boundary between the two). I'm surprised to see any boundaries at all on that close-up. Were the internal admin regions of Quito and Venezuela at issue during his journey, having been shown on the first map? Tony (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that during this time all the countries were united under "Gran Colombia". However, after Bolivar resigned, there was constant turmoil and civil wars which eventually caused these regions to separate from one another. So it may have been an issue? Perhaps jbmurray can shed some more light on this topic, he is more familiar with Latin American history then I am. Carlaty (talk) 03:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, it'd be more strictly accurate to say that the countries did not yet exist; they had not yet broken off from Gran Colombia. But we see that process start to take place and indeed gather steam in the novel itself. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh. Yup, the second map shows Panamá, which is a no-no, given the country wasn't created until (off the top of my head) 1909. (Acer, can we get rid of that border?) The internal divisions in the first map are departmental divisions. As Carlaty says, however, what's at issue is the break-up of Gran Colombia, and so the dissolution of Bolívar's dream of unity. As such, these divisions gain importance. Returning to the first map: what I don't know is whether the contemporary border between Colombia and Venezuela still follows the departmental division. Sandy?! --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 03:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed this, haven't been following the map issue, only saw this query now on my morning pass through FAC, and there's only one map in the article now. If there's still a concern, pls ping my talk page and I'll track it down. I don't know if that border changed, and will have to inquire, but there are several Wiki editors we can ping if needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, there are still two, and I fixed the border problem (see below). Yomanganitalk 17:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Can the first sentence be a simpler, more general, "The General in His Labyrinth (original Spanish title: El general en su laberinto) is a novel by Colombian writer Gabriel García Márquez."? I couldn't make out right now if by "fictionalised account" you mean novel or short story. Also, the simpler sentence makes everything simpler for the lay reader. indopug (talk) 04:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I fixed this one. Hopefully thats easier to read Carlaty (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if I really understand your question, but his full name is mentioned in the Characters section because that is his full name and is what he is referred to as (but only once in the novel). The link to Simon Bolivar is because the character of the General is based on, and is Simon Bolivar. Does that answer the question? Eshiu (talk) 05:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I was the GA reviewer for this article. It has improved since then, most noticeably the prose is better. Few things:
  • There is two "nineteenth century" and one "19th-century" - it's a small thing but should probably go with one or the other
Thanks again for all your help with GA! They are all "nineteenth century" now. Eshiu (talk) 05:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Historical context section, I think more background on the pre-46 year old Bolívar, rather than Columbus and Bonaparte would be useful.
When we started working on this article, we were planning to put more background about Bolívar's life prior to the time period of the novel. However, we chose not to because we thought too much information may be redundant with the information in the character section (as discussed on the article talk page). Moreover, I think too much information will simply be redundant of the Simón Bolívar wiki page itself. Eshiu (talk) 19:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can we add in how long he ruled as president before resigning? maclean 04:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea...Done!!! Carlaty (talk) 05:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the plot summary "...the General's life." - this is the first instance that "General" is used referring to a character. All previous "General"s are part of the book title, and Bolívar is not identified as a General until later. Maybe something in that sentence linking Bolívar with General would be useful. Actually, if Bolívar is only named once in the novel, it might be neat to do the same in the plot summary - name him once in the first sentence and go with General the rest of the way through.
I really like this idea, I hope it is okay if I do change all the references to the character to the General instead. I've also changed the General in the first sentence to his full name. Eshiu (talk) 06:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I liked how the Minor characters were bolded in the GA-version. I don't think I've seen it done that way before, but I did like it. I guess it must have been forbidden by a rule somewhere. Like, debased."[44]
I think the rules don't allow bolding of the Minor characters. I'm not positive, maybe someone with MOS knowledge can help? (I liked the bolding as well.) Eshiu (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm wary the Publication history section is going to start a precedent and it will be demanded in other book articles. As a contributor to book articles, I know this info is (currently) incredibly difficult to get reliably and comprehensively. --maclean 05:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • We're at something of an advantage, because there's a very complete multi-volume bibliography for García Márquez, where there isn't for most contemporary writers. (Though even that is now no doubt somewhat out of date.) On the other hand, frankly the textual history for this book is not so very interesting. I'd be willing to delete this section if that seemed to be the consensus opinion. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I prefer taking these kinds of things on an article-by-article basis. However, WP's high turnover rate turns 'case-by-case' into precedents into expectations into rules as new people come in and assume everything that came before is the norm. No easy answers. maclean 04:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second map and the case in the title: Thanks for those responses. Yes, Your Grace, you're quite right about the exemption; however, what gags me is "His" (Jesus? God? The Lord?); "his", like "in", is a grammatical word, unlike the two lexical items that bookend the title. It would look much nicer with "his". But if it's a bore to change the title, don't worry. The second map: it's unfortunate that the Venezuelan and Quito departments are the same colour—along with the modern name for the Columbia department, it gives the impression that during B's journey, the split had already been made, and that the two surrounding departments were by then separate countries in their own right. I'd make them all the same shade of grey, even if the boundaries remain. Tony (talk) 07:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand your hesitation about "His." And I recognize that you are happy to leave the title be. But just two points: 1) that this is the capitalization pattern of the English translation (Spanish is of course another matter); 2) I presume the justification is indeed that a semi-deified figure, or rather a man in the very process of deificatoin (even as he suffers and dies in fairly miserable and unbecoming circumstances). --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's probably cached, as I just overwrote the original. I left the accent off the capitalised version intentionally as part of my campaign to undermine the RAE. Fixed that too. Yomanganitalk 09:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it all written in CanEng? J Murray certainly uses it in his Wiki interview, but here, I wonder out "honor" and other spellings. It would be good to know, since this process is being used for official college assessment, whether the individual contributions of the students will be isolated and marked separately, and whether the learning experience includes the writing of a critique of the reviews here and of the non-student editing contributions to the article, and statements of what the students learned from the others. Tony (talk) 13:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like Canadian English, the article probably wants the best of both worlds when it comes to spelling. We'll look again for internal consistency. Your other points are interesting: that's not part of the assignment, but could be in the future, in another iteration. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 16:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have made a few tiny edits. The quality of the prose does vary, but as a whole this is a superbly written article. It is enligtening and engaging. There were a few lines I didn't understand:
    • Reportedly fond of women, Bolívar was said to have prematurely aged by the time of his death. - Does being fond of women make you age prematurely age?
      Yes. But I take the blame: poor copyediting. Adjusted. qp10qp (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The novel begins with the name of José Palacios, - does it literally? I haven't read the novel.
      It does. qp10qp (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even though he is usually at the General's side, Palacios often repeats... - is the grammar clumsy here?
      Not the grammar, but clarity of transition. Adjusted. qp10qp (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well done and congratulations on a exemplary contribution. This will look great on the Main Page. GrahamColmTalk 10:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. An outstanding article. I have one or two very minor questions about the text; but I have no hesitation in supporting.
    • "only Cuba and Puerto Rico remained under Spanish rule until the Spanish–American War of 1898"; perhaps this could be rephrased a little -- "only" and "until" don't work well together here. How about just cutting the "until" clause -- is it necessary to mention the future independence of two countries that don't figure in the narrative?
      I do see your point. I took out the "until" clause...Carlaty (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the last sentence of the historical context section, Bolivar is referred to as the president of Colombia, but in the first paragraph of the plot summary he is called the president of Gran Colombia. Shouldn't the former reference also be to Gran Colombia?
      I changed it to Gran Colombia as well :) Carlaty (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "His unidentified illness has led to his physical deterioration": is that second "his" intentional?
      I this it is. Does it sound awkward??? Carlaty (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      A matter of taste, perhaps; I'd probably leave it out. I'm striking this out since it wasn't accidental; up to you if you keep it. Mike Christie (talk) 12:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The General rides a mule into the last towns on his journey towards death, similar to Christ's entry into Jerusalem": I think "similar" is not given a precise enough noun phrase on which to work. How about "recalling" instead of "similar to"?
    • I don't speak Spanish, but I suspect "autointertexualidad" is a typo for "autointertextualidad".
-- Mike Christie (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the last two. Yomanganitalk 09:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I spotted has been addressed. Mike Christie (talk) 12:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Disclaimer: Although not particularly involved in this article I've been involved with WP:MMM in general. Just finished reading through the article and I can't think of a single reason to oppose. It's a very good piece of work that definetly deserves FA status. Acer (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pied-noir

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:25, 24 April 2008.

Halo: Contact Harvest

Rest easy guys... it's not about a video game, it's about a bestselling novel based on a video game. It's a shorter article again (I know, I know) but I feel that it exhausts all the good sources floating around out there. Hack it apart, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I see, trying to trick me with a book about a video game??? Anyway, sources look good. Links worked. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry... I've got some history articles in the works, but the next likely candidate is a straight shooter. :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you want citations for the plot? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really know. Page numbers would help, at least to verify the details. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll see about getting someone on that (I only have the audiobook.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Haha. :) Btw, I will move to "support" if you can provide a section of third party analysis of how the work is different or the same to the video games. I would think 5-7 sources, two paragraphs, would be enough. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there is info like that. Contact Harvest takes place before the games, and unlike Halo: The Flood is entirely original story, not an adaptation. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then you left me without any more ground to complain. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 04:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Your FACs just keep getting shorter and shorter, eh, David? I thought the Spyro article was short, but this probably tops them. I don't see anything wrong with the article, images, citations, or anything else, it's written in your classic style. bibliomaniac15 02:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have a style now? Actually, DotA is the shortest FA article I've written at only 1098 words. Spyro 3 had 1984 words, and this has about 1600, just slightly less than Populous: The Beginning. Admittedly, that's less than the 3091 of Master Chief (Halo) and 2249 of Cortana, but then there's always the 1196 of Iridion 3D. So it's right in the middle :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—Not well written. Not comprehensive (and when you exclude the synopsis, it's very threadbare, including the lead). Here are a few random examples of prose glitches:

  • "Staten directed the cut scenes in the video games and is a major contributor to Halo's storyline"—"was"?
  • "Staten set out to pen a novel that not only appealed to gamers, but those who had never picked up a Halo novel previously." "To pen" in this context is a little precious nowadays, if not downright inaccurate. The not only ... but also is a tired, marked version of "and" that you'd use if a plus b was unusual or surprising. And the placement of "not only" is wrong. "Previously" is redundant.
  • "It is an "ensemble piece"—The quotes tell us that it's a particular usage of the item, but I still don't understand the meaning—gloss it briefly?
  • "and made multiple bestseller lists"—you make a list? Bit loose. "Multiple" is excessive and not one of the most sonorous words in English. "Many"? Or better still, be less vague ("more than eight"?).

And down the bottom: "Several publications believed that the story was biased against gamers and insulting.[17][18][19]"—No, it's the critics/writers who do that. Tony (talk) 11:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the above issues, just pointing out it made the NYT bestseller list since that's the one people would be most familiar with. As for "comprehensive" - it's frankly as comprehensive as it ever will be. I couldn't dig up any more reviews, and there's not enough reliable sourcing to discuss much of the content of the novel. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments.

  • "Staten directed the cut scenes" - use "he" instead of his name (repetition)
  • "as well as those who had never picked up a Halo novel." - is this a quote? Otherwise, slightly jargonish with "picked up" etc...I dunno, not a big deal
  • "of story in games." - you mean in video games? And you mean stories related to them, or in game plots, or huh...?
  • "about writing action, Staten replied that he felt that writing action" - repetition
  • "offending weapon in the book, but justified the inclusion" - should "but" be "and"?
  • "Upon release, Contact Harvest debuted at #3 on The New York Times Bestseller List, as well as appearing on the USA Today bestseller's list;[11] the novel remained on the NYT bestseller list for four more weeks." - I don't like the wording here. Just mention all the NYT still, then USA Today, IMO

Mostly looks good. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the changes, thanks for the review! Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Prose looks good to me, and I don't consider the seemingly short length to be an issue. I would echo Ottava Rima's above statement about adding some references for the plot section though, verifing key points with the page they happen should be sufficient. -- Sabre (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Punt (boat)

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:34, 18 April 2008.

David Suzuki: The Autobiography

previous FAC (02:21, 12 February 2008)

I think this article meets all the FA criteria. It was created in late-January, became a GA on Jan 29, a DYK on Jan 31, but failed a FAC in Feb. It is worthy of another chance at FA-status. --maclean 18:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak Oppose — It is missing citations. Fails criteria 1 (c).
    • There is no reference for "The publishers, Greystone Books and Douglas & McIntyre, won the CBA Libris Award for Marketing Achievement of the Year." (in the 2nd paragraph of the lead).
    • There is no reference for "The book won the 2007 Canadian Booksellers Association's Libris Award for Non-Fiction Book of the Year and the 2007 British Columbia Booksellers' Choice Award." in the first paragraph of the "Reception" section.
    • There is no reference for "This is Suzuki's forty-third book and, he says, his last." in the 2nd paragraph of the lead.
    • I don't like the red link in the first paragraph - you might just want to remove the link and leave it as that.
    • The article itself is very short - I am not citing this as a reason for opposing this FAC, but I am sure more could be said about this book - it would help to actually engage the reader.
    • Was there no criticism for this book?
    • I think an External Links section would be of some value (you could provide a link to the author's official website).

— Wackymacs (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I added the citation for the awards, citations to the lead, an external links section, and removed the red link. [1] I placed all the opinionated criticism in the second paragraph of the Reception section. --maclean 22:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The other citations are not appropriate. For example Scientific concepts and explanations, especially in the biological sciences, occur throughout the book.[14] Why is the book not used as the source, (with page numbers), and the cited source does not support the statement. GrahamColmTalk 20:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the in depth review. On this example it was coming from the reference's "...mixes memoir and science, culminating with his thoughts...". So I have removed the "biology" specification [3] --maclean 22:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 14:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All the links checked out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs)
  • Support For a smaller page, it seems quite right. The above all seems to check out also. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Could do with a significant copy-edit, not so much for grammar as for style. The article's very choppy. I tried to make a few changes myself, but the prose remains rather unengaging. I do also find the article a little thin, but perhaps that's my problem with articles about this kind of topic. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 11:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for your edits. I think I got the technicalities of prose down pretty good, but the flow and engaginess often escape me. It is something I'm working on and your sample edits do help me see the difference. On your other point, I've exhausted my search methods for sources. If you come across anything drop a note so I can pursue it. -maclean 19:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This article is concise and well-written. I just have two minor remarks:
    • You may disagree with me, but the main article link under "Content" section title seems kind of ridiculous to me. David Suzuki is already linked before and I think people generally figure that this article will have more information on his life. But, like I said, feel free to disagree.
      • I agree, for what it's worth. What's more the link is misleading: it's a link not to an article that is devoted to the content of this book (as such links are usually used); it's simply to the author and subject of the book, which is a different thing. In short, it's confusing the written autobiography with the man himself. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 19:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree, also. I put it in reluctantly in the first place and thought about removing it several times. I just borderline didn't care enough. This provides me with the motivation to do it. Thanks. --maclean 19:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Two weeks before its publication an excerpt was printed in the national daily newspaper The Globe and Mail.[27]" Where that sentence is placed seems a little odd to me. Doesn't that belong to the publication history more than it does to the reception? Also, putting it between two sentences discussing how the book ranked in bestsellers' lists feels weird.--Carabinieri (talk) 19:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Why are two book covers being used (a paper back and, presumably, hard cover)? WP:NFCC#3A requires minimal use, specifically "Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary." Both images even have identical purposes in their rationales. Why are both needed "To identify the subject of the article"? What significant contribution to our understanding (NFCC#8) does a second cover make above and beyond that provided by the first? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 23:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for assuming I had good reasons for using the image. I just thought that an image of the paperback would be appropriate for the Publication section. It is mentioned there, but the image is not necessary for understanding. So I removed it. maclean 02:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:58, 21 October 2008 [5].

Joking Apart

Nominator: The JPS (talk)
previous FAC (00:24, 24 April 2008)


It's comprehensive, stable, well referenced, neutral, etc. Non-free images with full rationales, and a couple of free images too. Since its last nomination, it has undergone an extensive copyedit by User:Gosgood (whose skill and politeness are highly appreciated). The JPStalk to me 17:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, the opening section ends with "The first series was released in May 2006, and the second on 17 March 2008." I think this refers to the DVD release, I would have thought that the broadcast dates would be more relevant, perhaps with "and subsequently released on DVD". ϢereSpielChequers 21:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also is Johnathon Barlow a mispelling of Jonathan Barlow? I know there are some people who spell the name Jonathon, but I've never heard of a Johnathon. ϢereSpielChequers 22:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your observations and tweaks. I've removed the sentence with the DVD release dates as it is probably too much detail for the lead. I've kept the "One fan acquired the rights..." sentence, though, as there is a significant chunk of the article about that. You're right about Jonathon: checked the credits, and corrected. Tweaked the lead slightly to incorporate the years of broadcast (exact date within the article). The JPStalk to me 22:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's my points finished, good luck with the FAC. ϢereSpielChequers 23:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As with the same site's series one review, it does not seem to breech WP:RS, particularly as it does not supporting any controversial/BLP issues. The JPStalk to me
  • Clearly a self-reference is unacceptable. I'm confused, though, as neither #45 or the surrounding ones point to this? The JPStalk to me 08:05, 10

October 2008 (UTC)

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "The show attracted a small audience because of scheduling problems, yet it scored highly on the Appreciation Index and it accrued a loyal fanbase."
  • "One fan acquired the rights from the BBC and released both series on his own DVD label." What type of rights?
  • "Separating from his wife, Moffat was going through a difficult period and aspects of it colored his creative output." Add an "As he was" to the beginning of that sentence.
  • "Moffat scripted all sorts of unfortunate things for the Magboy character, such as having a typewriter drop on his foot."-->Moffat scripted unfortunate situations for the Magboy character, such as having a typewriter drop on his foot.
  • "Various episodes of Coupling played with structure, such as the fourth series episode "9½ Minutes" which showed the same events from three perspectives." The episodes didn't play with the structure, did they?
  • "Mark is quick-witted, and the stand-up sequences serve to show that he thinks in one-liners."-->Mark is quick-witted, and the stand-up indicate that he thinks in one-liners.
  • "They have a baby, which is seen or referred to occasionally." "which"-->who.
  • "We are shown Becky and Mark's first date, and then going back to her flat." No first person pronouns should be used in articles.
  • "In his overview of Moffat's celebrated Press Gang, Paul Cornell says that..." I would change says to said to keep the tense consistent in the paragraph.
  • "While the transmission of series two was still being delayed by BBC 2 controller Michael Jackson" Dabomb87 (talk) 03:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for these helpful copyediting comments. I highly value how you have taken the time to offer alternatives. I've enacted all of your suggestions, apart from the Coupling comparison. The first series of JA plays with narrative structure, albeit less gimmicky than Coupling. The JPStalk to me 08:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The pilot from Comic Asides is also included on Disc 2, along with a complete set of Series Two script pdfs..." Write the full name for "pdfs" on its first appearance.
  • "The second series followed a more linear structure, though retaining the stand-up sequences."-->The second series followed a more linear structure, although it retained the stand-up sequences.
  • "Mark meets Becky in a newsagents"—A typo? Needs a comma after "newsagents" or whatever that word is supposed to be.
  • "It is practically identical to the first episode of the series proper: some scenes are even reused, notably the scene with Mark and Becky meeting when he accidentally turns up at a funeral." Colon needs to be a semicolon.
  • "The reused footage gives rise to the first episode's shared director credit between Spiers and Kilby." Change "give" to gave for tense consistency within the paragraphs. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the second batch. Done all, about from 'newsagents', which is a legitimate word in British English for a specific type of shop: Newsagents#United_Kingdom. The JPStalk to me 13:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment - this is an odd article it has a number of excellent free images complete with OTRS tags, which is very good. However with the exception of the infobox image, I can see none of the remaining non-free images meeting WP:NFCC, and thus meeting Featured arcticle criteria #3 Fasach Nua (talk) 15:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd definitely like to keep Image:Joking Apart - Robert Bathurst.jpg since it's an image that opens nearly every episode and is referred to within the article. The JPStalk to me 17:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, NFCC#3 states "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information." A title screenshot is completely different in nature to an image of the major characters, and it is very unlikely that all the characters appear in one frame (with the exception of copyrighted publicity material). The article talks extensively about these characters, and it is important for them to be shown to completely fulfill the FAC#2 criteria of being "comprehensive" to a reader who probably hasn't seen this series. Bob talk 21:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed two of the images. Not that it'll make much difference. The JPStalk to me 09:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giggy's comments based on this version

  • "The show attracted a small audience because of scheduling problems" - IMO, the current wording suggests the problems were what earned it its audience. That's probably not what you intend to say.
  • "Moffat scripted unfortunate situations for the Magboy character, such as having a typewriter drop on his foot." - reading the first part of the sentence, I expected something more dramatic, especially the context it's put in (breaking up with wife, etc.)
  • "Recording for the first series of six episodes began on location in the first half of April 1992[11] and were mainly filmed in Chelsea within a short distance from the director's home" - read literally, the "were" refers to "recording"... needs a slight reword.
  • "were normally pretty quick" - a bit too informal for an encyclopedia, IMO
  • Some words like editing, tightening, recording, etc. should be wikilinked at least once
  • Are you saying you don't know the title of the article for ref 18? (David Gritten, Daily Telegraph)
  • I doubt the images in the Characters section meet WP:NFCC#8
  • "she 'wins' an impromptu one-liner contest" - should those be proper quotation marks?
  • "They are initially Becky's friends, but they become friends with Mark too" --> "They are initially Becky's friends, but soon befriend Mark" or something like that
  • "which, according to the writer, he now admits that he was wrong" - doesn't make sense, remove the "that he" and see if that works

Giggy (talk) 02:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for these. I've enacted most. I'm leaving the Magboy one: "unfortunate" is a tame word that I don't think invites high drama. 'Having a typewriter dropped on one's foot is unfortunate: whereas it might be somewhat of an understatement if it were more dramatic. I've wikilinked editing: the other terms you mention don't have appropriate articles. The JPStalk to me 18:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Virginia

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 01:50, 7 May 2008.

Getting It: The psychology of est

Self-nomination. Stable WP:GA-rated article which has had a peer review, archived here (nothing much was brought up there, though it was listed at the psychology and books WikiProjects). I will do my best to address points/comments as they come up in this FAC discussion. Cirt (talk) 09:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restart: old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've looked through this article, and I'm impressed by the massive turn-around shown by Cirt. I can't find a single error; excellent work. :-) Qst (talk) 20:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I've thoroughly read this article and reviewed its content in detail with Cirt, and I'm confident it meets the FA standard. Great work! VanTucky 21:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I am going to repeat my previous comment and I will expand a bit: "I think it is a lowering of standards here to feature a book report, especially one so blandly written. We can do better." While Cirt seems to think I have it in for him and my comment on the prior nom was akin to "wikistalking and insulting me" (see this thread) that is not actually the fact and Cirt might want to note that I have not opposed his previous FAC nominations. Frankly, when it comes to featured status I do not think a bland and formulaic book report (same unimaginative template as previous work) cuts it. I have no problem with this being a Good Article and well done to Cirt on that. I do object to it being considered on a level approaching featured content. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • To satisfy my curiosity, if nothing else, can you explain which FA criteria apply your comment? I suppose "blandly written" could be a 1a objection, but you haven't supplied any actionable examples. Your opposition almost reads "I don't like the topic" which is not a valid objection. --Laser brain (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hi. Do I have to know all the criteria by number to voice my opinion here? I think I described my objection well enough. But if you would like an example, the second paragraph is a good one for the sort of stilted prose I find not up to featured quality. I also mention the entirely dull and formulaic format of the article. Sorry, but I don't think that a "lack of errors" is sufficient criteria for featured status, that would be a GA requirement, IMO. Anyway, that is my $0.02. I would not be commenting on this at all except that the restart nullified my previous comment and I wanted it on record. That and Cirt's attempt at censoring me which I found highly objectionable. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I'm neither supporting or opposing. I commented earlier when this article was previously up at FAC, and did a fair amount of copy-editing and working with Cirt to improve the article. Cirt has responded to these suggestions (and those of other people), and I think that the last FAC was very productive for the article.
  • The following comments from last time still, I think, apply to some extent:
    • I'd like to see more about the context of est and the debate about the methodology, about whether this is a cult, etc. This is obviously very important to understand this particular book's contribution.
    • Specifically, in the "Reception" section, est is described as part of the "New Age" movement. There should have been some discussion of that earlier.
    • There should be more on the impact (or otherwise) of the book.
  • I have a broader point: I'm sympathetic to Justallofthem's frustration that this is "a book report." But my feeling is that with a book like this, that may be the best you can do unless you go beyond the book itself.
  • I quite believe that Cirt has scoured the relevant literature for any direct reference to the book. If he's missed something, it's not much. What's required, however, is to place this book within a broader frame: here the entire debate over est, New Age-derived (self-)help movements, concern or panic about cults in the 1970s, and the like.
  • In general, for topics like this (because I have similar concerns about certain film articles that I"ve reviewed recently, too, for instance), I'm coming to think that the article has to go the extra mile to place the subject in some kind of historical, political, sociological (or whatever) context. This is, after all, what a properly academic take on a book such as this would look like.
  • I recognize, however, that this is arguably an idiosyncratic interpretation of criterion 1b, and that perhaps I should be taking my concerns there, rather than here. At worst, perhaps, what's at issue is notability, which I know should not be a consideration in these debates. But my feeling is that something can be done about the problem.
  • So while this is not an oppose, it is actionable. I do think that any moves in the direction of contextualizing the subject would make for significant improvement. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 07:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You pretty much summed up how I was feeling about it too - I couldn't have said it better myself. Sorry Cirt, I too am not opposing though. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response to Jbmurray's points

I have, as you correctly assumed above, scoured many many many databases for archival sources about this book. What is present in this article is what I was able to come up with. During this ongoing FAC I have continued to search for additional sources, so far in vain. I have, as you noted above, responded to many of your points previously raised since before this FAC discussion was restarted. I do not feel that these remaining points are actionable, because it is not the point of this particular article to describe the history of New Age movements, est, the 1970s, etc. - that is the point of articles New Age, Erhard Seminars Training, and 1970s. To be expected to accomplish all of that here, within this article, beyond the brief background already given, is not, in my opinion, appropriate. Better to provide that context at those other articles. If more of that type of context were given in other secondary sources that already discuss and analyze this book itself, I could understand - but to go off and try to do that with other sources which have nothing to do with an analysis of this book itself doesn't seem appropriate. Cirt (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Cirt addressed all my concerns in the last FAC where I went through the prose. I had a concern that the article may not have been researched thoroughly, but that concern has been assuaged. --Laser brain (talk) 23:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, again. I think the article is well-written, direct, and engaging. Makes me want to read the book, despite how creepy I think est is. --Moni3 (talk) 00:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/11th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Drapier's Letters

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 15:17, 8 May 2008.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

previous FAC (00:34, 18 April 2008)


Yes, this article was just here, but I have used the previous FAC as a peer review to improve the article, and believe I have addressed the commenters' concerns. There is much that is new about this article. Please let me know what more can be improved, or anything from the previous FAC that is still not satisfactory. This article is part of a current featured topic nomination. Pagrashtak 16:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All other links worked. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It has been my experience that Joystiq is considered reliable among members of the VG project, and it is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources#List. If others take issue with it, it is being used to cite something that is somewhat trivial, and could be removed if it's a problem.
For rpgfan.com, I'm not familiar with the site off-hand. Someone else added that reference, I believe, and I decided to leave it. It's only used to reference the number of tracks on the soundtrack and the duration, which could be sourced directly to the primary material. I thought it might be better for the user to reference the website, as it is much easier to check. If this is believed to be a problem, I can switch the reference to the soundtrack itself if that's agreeable.
Addition—RPGFan is used by Game Rankings when compiling a combined score (source), which lends more credibility to the site. Pagrashtak 04:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As for the Magic Box, I believe it is considered reliable by the VG project, and is used extensively to source List of best-selling video games (it is also sourcing sales in this article). Pagrashtak 19:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For all those sources, we need something that proves their reliablity. To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Joystiq is part of Weblogs, Inc., which is owned by AOL. [6]
As I mention above, RPGFan meets the criteria of Game Rankings, part of CNET Networks, to be included in the overall compiled score. (Game Rankings criteria). I suppose I'll end up replacing the Magicbox source. Pagrashtak 20:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Joystiq is a blog then? I'm trying to see how citing a blog, even a well known and respected blog is necessarily a reliable source. Is the person who wrote the particular blog well known in the video game field? The information it's sourcing is "Ocarina of Time contains unused development code, such as an Arwing from the Star Fox series, with attack and movement fully programmed." I need to see how this is a reliable source of information (Of course, the fact that the source doesn't say that it's unused development code is another issue.) This isn't the biggest and most important of soucing issues, granted. The RPG fan information is the length of the Japanese soundtrack, which I'm not sure really needs that ironclad of a source, but could it be sourced to Amazon or something like that? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't give a blog across-the-board approval for reliability, but I would consider some blog posts reliable enough in certain situations. It's definitely a case-by-case matter. Technically, I suppose this could be sourced directly to the video game, but it would be extremely difficult for any reader to verify. As I mentioned before, this isn't a vital fact and could be removed.
I've already looked for the Japanese soundtrack information—Amazon was the first place I looked. They give the number of tracks, but not the length of the soundtrack,[7] so I didn't replace the source. A Google search didn't turn up anything reliable looking at a once-over. Pagrashtak 05:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to make you take out information, but even this sort of stuff needs something reliable. The bit about the development code/etc. probably doesn't need the most ironclad of sources, but it should still meet WP:RS. The soundtrack could just go to the soundtrack, if someone had it. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've commented out the Arwing sentence. The best sources I could find were Kotaku and N-Sider, which aren't any closer to RS then Joystiq. I've replaced the RPGfan references with the website for Pony Canyon. Pagrashtak 17:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, those two taken care of, did we resolve the Magic Box information or not? I got lost somewhere in here... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was giving myself a little more time to look through a Google search—I have to wade through a lot of forums and blogs. It's replaced now. Pagrashtak 15:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose - For the third time, there is information on Ocarina of Time in the audio/music section of The Legend of Zelda (series) article about how the popularity of Ocarinas increased because of this game. There is actually a lot of information about ocarina of time in the audio and reception sections of the series article that is not included in this one. Also, why no character section? Or a track listing for the CD? Do those things and I will fully support :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I missed the part about ocarina sales—it's been added now. Let me know if anything else is missing from that section. There is no character section because we have an entire article about that (List of characters in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time) which is already a little long for my tastes. It's linked as a See also right at the top of the plot section, and the characters integral to the plot are covered in the plot well enough for the reader to understand. I see no reason to add a bulky section to repeat that article when the plot seems perfectly understandable as it is. There's no track listing because I didn't think the general reader would care, and its inclusion would be bulky. With gripping song titles such as "House" and "Game Over", it's not terribly interesting, either. I'm curious to see how others feel about it. Pagrashtak 00:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense, though I too would like to hear what people think about the track listing, because I believe other FA game articles include their cd's track listing. Great job! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(interjection) it's been my experience with FACs that track listing are generally not looked upon kindly, but you can always have a show/hide mechanism for the listing. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker has a track listing, but it was merged in from what used to be a separate article covering the soundtrack well after the FAC. I need to spend some time cleaning it up—I might use comments in this FAC to help guide me in the soundtrack section there. Pagrashtak 04:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Minor Support the article had some improvement since the failed FAC, indeed. A great job, though not as polished as the current Zelda FAs. igordebraga ≠ 02:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll take that as a compliment, considering the primary author of those FAs. ;) I fully admit that this article is not as polished as the Oracle games, which I've been actively maintaining. If you'd care to point out anything in particular, or the weakest part of the article, I'd be glad to fix it up and make the article stronger. Pagrashtak 04:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd have something to say at least about the images: in Plot, to quote Fuchs in the previous FAC, "how does a picture of Zelda and Link or a picture of Ganondorf significantly help the reader's understanding?" — specially considering the amount of cutscenes in the game, though it's hard to pick one or two to put in. And in Gameplay, the images are too similar, maybe one of Adult Link or the "lock-on" would be more helpful instead of the Hyrule Field one. igordebraga ≠ 00:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry, I missed this comment earlier. As I mentioned below, I've removed one of the gameplay images. I think the images of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are acceptable fair use. Two images to illustrate the three main characters seems reasonable to me. Pagrashtak 04:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Really, a nicely written article. My only concern is that there seems to be a large amount of images on the article, and they seem cluttered together. I'm not so certain that they are all necessary. --haha169 (talk) 22:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. It's a very good article, just 2 things. 1) The images are too cluttered and 2) Aren't the notes and the references the same thing? Epass (talk) 00:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per c. three. Not only do some of the images appear superfluous, but they clutter the article badly. Image:KokiriForest.JPG appears to only be used to show Link without equipment; how does that significantly increase reader's understanding of the work? Isn't Image:ZELDA OCARINA OF TIME.jpg a better representation of the work as a whole? What about the covers, specifically Image:OcarinaMQCover.jpg? Do you need a full infobox for the soundtrack, which leaves lots of whitespace wasted below it? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree about Image:KokiriForest.JPG. I hesitated about removing it before the FAC (I didn't add it, and decided to err on the side of caution by leaving it), but now that you've voiced the same concern, I've removed it. I will stand by Image:OcarinaMQCover.jpg, however. I feel that having the box art is beneficial here. Master Quest used to have its own article, but was merged into this one, and I feel it's useful to have the box art remain. The soundtrack also used to have its own article. I'd argue to keep the image, but I could lose the infobox. I'll leave it up for the time being to see if someone else wants to voice an opinion on that. Pagrashtak 03:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some other concerns:
    • "The game received wide critical acclaim and commercial success. The first Zelda game with 3D graphics, it was praised for taking elements of the two-dimensional games and successfully translating them into the third dimension." Perhaps the second sentence should be reworded to be "As the first Zelda game with 3D graphics, Ocarina of Time was praised..." to increase flow?
      • If you insert the word As, it creates a false implication. If you say "Senator Smith is granted the franking privilege" you are stating two facts (Smith is a senator, Smith has the franking privilege) without showing that one is the result of the other. If you say "As a senator, Smith is granted the franking privilege", you now show that the second is a direct consequence of the first. In the Zelda example, we do not wish to show such a consequence, because it is false. Ocarina could have been unsuccessful.
    • " from obtaining the Triforce, a sacred relic that grants the wishes of its holder. Link travels back and forth in time to prevent Ganondorf from obtaining the Triforce and gaining control of Hyrule." from obtaining... from obtaining... fix the repetition.
      • That's a bad one—fixed.
    • "like all games in the series, Ocarina of Time has several optional side quests," we need a reference for the "all games in the series" bit; I think the Gametrailers LoZ retrospective actually might be able to cite that, if you can dig up the ref by watching the videos.
      • It's not all that necessary, I've removed the phrase.
    • This section from development: "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, released in 2000 for the Nintendo 64, is a direct sequel to Ocarina. [...] On one island, boys are dressed like Link when they come of age.[43]" It's fair to mention Majora's Mask, as it shipped on the N64 and is a direct sequel in terms of plot, but why Wind Waker?
      • I included Wind Waker because the events of this game are a legend in that one, and boys in Wind Waker are dressed as the main character from this game in his honor. It's only two sentences, I didn't think it was that much of an intrusion to include it.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replies by Pagrashtak 20:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above oppose may be stale. Fuchs's last comments were posted 17:47, 26 April.[8] I made some changes to the article and replied 20:28, 26 April.[9] Having not received anything further from him, I asked Fuchs to respond at 15:34, 29 April[10] but have not received any reply. Pagrashtak 18:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I’m making me rounds, no need to fret. I guess I will go neutral until I can review the article again. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose

Resolved issues from Buc (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In early 2006, it was ranked by Nintendo Power as the best game to appear on a Nintendo console" Sounds a bit clumsy.
    • Any suggestions? This sentence is a little tricky to reword while keeping the meaning intact.
  • Ref #4 doesn't appear to link to the right page.

Buc (talk) 09:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replies by Pagrashtak 15:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "making them unfamiliar and harder to beat" POV
  • Do we need so much info on Majora's Mask in the "Re-releases and sequels" section?
  • I'm a bit puzzled why the game is sometimes referred to as "Ocarina of Time" and other times as just "Ocarina".
    • For flow. For example, in this quote:"Ocarina of Time: Master Quest started as an expansion to Ocarina to be used..." I didn't want to repeat "Ocarina of Time", so I shortened it. Do you think it's a problem? Pagrashtak 15:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you mind striking any addressed/resolved comments? It will make this easier to follow. Thanks, Pagrashtak 15:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After Link kills the boss of Dodongo's Cavern" probubly better just to say the boss' name (in this case King Dodongo) as some readers may not understand the term "boss".
  • "Ocarina of Time is the fifth game in The Legend of Zelda series, but the first chronologically." The ref for this appears to be from the time the game was resealed so how do we know that any of the game released since then don't pre-date it? Buc (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It been so long since I've played this game so I can't be sure but doesn't Ganondorf say something at the end about how he will one day return? Might be worth mentioning.
  • Is swordfighting all one word?
    • Honestly, I'm not sure. I can't find swordfight in a dictionary, so I'm inclined to think it isn't.
  • "Reviews for the Master Quest and the Virtual Console re-release considered the graphics and audio outdated. After originally giving a rating of 10/10, IGN gave Master Quest 9/10 and GameSpot gave the Virtual Console release 8.9/10." I don't quite understand this. Is the Virtual Console version different from the original?
    • Not significantly. There are minor differences, such as progressive scan support and lack of rumble, but the core game is unchanged. GameSpot (and others) gave the VC re-release a separate review, though, complete with a score. Since the VC version was released later, the graphics and audio were approached with different expectations. Pagrashtak 15:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for collapsing. I've made some changes, please see if your outstanding comments have been resolved. Pagrashtak 21:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Reception could do with something about how this game is often considered one of the best ever. Buc (talk) 20:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • These quotes are from the first paragraph of Reception: "Ocarina of Time received a perfect score from many gaming publications, including Famitsu,[51] Electronic Gaming Monthly,[50] GameSpot,[52] and IGN.[46]" "Ocarina of Time is frequently featured near or at the top of gaming publications' top games of all time lists, including those of Electronic Gaming Monthly,[4] IGN,[6] and Edge.[7] In 2006, Nintendo Power named it the best game to appear on a Nintendo console.[8] Game Trailers named it the best game of all time in their list of the Ten Best and Worst Games of All Time." Is that not enough? Pagrashtak 00:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's only part of a paragraph at the moment and read as nothing more than a list of scores with no real overall point. Buc (talk) 16:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't know a better way of saying that Ocarina is often considered one of the best games other than telling the reader about prominent publications that gave it a perfect score and ranked it high on best games list. What exactly do you want? Pagrashtak 18:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Just exspand on what you've got. Take a few quotes from the sources that gave it good score that say why they think it's so good and make it a separate paragraph. Buc (talk) 16:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reception section is tagged as having neutrality disputed (not surprising for this subject...), please solve ASAP. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've removed the tag. It says "Please see the discussion on the talk page." but the editor who added that tag did not say what the problem was, either or the talk page, here, or on my user talk page. If it gets re-added with an explanation, then we'll see, but that section is pretty balanced. There are five paragraphs—here's a summary showing positive and negative to illustrate why I feel it's balanced.
    1. The first paragraph gives information on sales, awards, and rankings. Everything is sourced and reflects an accurate view of critical reception in my opinion.
    2. Second paragraph covers graphics. Positive: Faces were done well, draw distances good. Negative: Blurry textures, graphics outdone by an earlier game for the same console.
    3. Third paragraph covers gameplay. Positive: Detailed, many side quests. Negative: Simple control scheme causes "unintended actions" to occur, new system has learning curve.
    4. Fourth paragraph covers audio. Positive: atmospheric and surround sound used well, immersive. Negative: Samples sound outdated, MIDI songs are "fair to terrible"
    5. Fifth paragraph covers re-release. Positive: Scores still high (9, 8.9). Negative: Called outdated, scores lower than original.

    Pagrashtak 14:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Uneasy about this one. This is much improved in the prose compared with this genre a year ago. But I'm not entirely satisfied yet.

    • Just to start, a non-actionable piece of advice: the leads of these video-game articles seem to start unerringly with exactly the same formula. If I notice this, other readers will. Overall, it reduces the quality of engagement with readers because it's so predictable—are you hinting that the video games are predictable? I hope not. You might consider varying the formula, even just by changing the order in which information is given.
      • In fact many video games are predictable, but this is not the reason for the formulaic opening. There are certain elements of video games that needs to be conveyed up front—genre, release date, regions of release, platform—which naturally sets up the easy trap of this opening. Your point is taken, and I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I write a video game lead.
    • "has several optional side quests, or minor objectives that the player can choose to complete or ignore"—is this an equative "or"? A "that is,"? And I can't tell whether is should be like this, with another comma: "has several optional side quests, i.e., minor objectives, that the player can choose to complete or ignore". Check.
      • Yes, it's intended to show equation. The extra comma is intentionally left out, as the addition would imply that not all side quests are optional. A required minor objective would never be called a side quest.
    • Trivial linking: why "composer"? Sure, "leitmotif" is a good link, but don't dilute it. Do we really need to link "North America", "Japan", "Europe" and "Australia"? Why not leave just the USEFUL links, or it's a mess of blue.
      • I took out a few—I don't think it was too bad overall, but definitely agree about the country links.
    • MOS breaches: footnote 20—"You must look for the five temples and awaken the five Sages… One Sage is waiting for the time of awakening in the Forest Temple. The Sage is a girl I am sure you know… Because of the evil power in the temple, she cannot hear the awakening call from the Sacred Realm…" Check MOS WRT three vs four dots, and the spacing requirements. The readers deserve to know which ones are real periods in the original. And it's unclear where this quote comes from. Does it appear in print in the actual game?
      • You might need to help me out a little with this. I know a lot MOS particulars, but haven't dealt with ellipses yet. Are you saying I should use periods instead of the ellipsis character? If something else is wrong with footnote 20, I don't know what it is. Yes, the quote is printed in the video game.
      • Update—regarding the use of three or four periods—I checked the game and it uses three sometimes and four sometimes. I can vouch for what is used in this article as of this post. All ellipses in the game quotations appear on-screen, are not used to indicate omitted text, and match the game in using three or four. Pagrashtak 21:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ref 28: ""Interview with Shigeru Miyamoto" (13 November 1998). Nintendo Power 114. Retrieved on 23 October 2007." I don't think the web site is properly named. And there are two people's names associated with the copyright of the site at the bottom. Can you clear this up? I think the refs need careful checking. Tony (talk) 12:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • This was an interview that appeared in volume 114 of Nintendo Power magazine. The link is a convenience for those without access to the magazine. You'll notice the copyright says "© 1999-2005 A.Robinson/C.Johnson unless otherwise stated" (emphasis mine) and the top of the page identifies Nintendo Power as the source. Pagrashtak 14:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments. Good to see the NPOV stuff sorted above.

    • Say which year the iQue/VC releases were in (lead)
    • You should mention the time spent as young link in the lead, I think...dunno, the plot summary is pretty condensed there
    • "it is the best-selling" - past tense
    • The quote in ref 9 doesn't seem to mention what it's citing ("a control scheme that was considered revolutionary at the time but is now common among contemporary games")
      • Also, say why it was so revolutionary...
    • "(L Targeting in the GameCube version)." - I think you should just discuss the N64 stuff
    • "Link in Hyrule Field" - discus what else is seen in the image...heart meter, weapons, map, rupees, etc.
    • "to be followed by a 64DD expansion later" - "later" is not necessary
    • "a composer famous for his work on some of Nintendo's key titles" - needs source, and "some" is ambiguous...just say which ones
    • "It is cited as the "first contemporary nondance title to feature music-making as part of its gameplay"." - change "it" to "the game" and say who this quote is from

    Prose seems to improve in the latter part of the article. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I've done most of this. I'm not too keen about expanding the plot in the lead, I'd rather keep the in-universe part of it to a minimum and just provide the basics. As for "is the best-selling", it still is. If I say it was the best-selling game of 1998, it sounds like something surpassed it in December, which isn't the case. Pagrashtak 23:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. first point; that's fine. Second; yeah, you're right, m'bad. Support. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Issues resolved - Black Kite 19:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed some, but I have questions about the rest.
    • Clarification, really; as I said, a screenshot to show the look and feel of the game is unexceptionable (as long as it's discussed in the text) - I wondered if that was the best image we have to cover that use?
    • I don't know if we could get everyone to agree on the best shot, but it shows the context-sensitive actions described in the text.
    • Image:OcarinaMQCover.jpg isn't clear, at least to me. Master Quest used to have its own article, with that image as the box art in the infobox. ([11]) When it was merged into this article, the box art came with it. I have the suspicion that no one would bat an eye at it being used in the separate article, but it is an issue here. Did something change, or was it also not fair use in the separate article in your opinion?
    • Technically, it would fail NFCC even in a separate article, (though there appears to be some consensus that a single non-free image of the cover as the header shot for an article is acceptable - I would argue that, but whatever). However, in this context it's purely decorative - the cover itself isn't mentioned in the text, and it doesn't enhance the reader's knowledge of the actual subject WP:NFCC#8.
    • I hope you can understand my hesitation—it feels strange to remove it if I leave the boxart in the infobox, but I'll do so.
    • The problem here is that this article isn't about Link or Zelda, it's about the game, so if the purpose of the screenshot is merely to show what some characters look like (and if that issue isn't discussed in the text, which it isn't), then again it's decorative.
    • I think that oversimplifies the matter. Sure, the article isn't exclusively about the characters, but any good video game (or movie or book) article will cover the characters to some extent, as the plot section of the article does. I'm of the opinion that character artwork significantly helps the reader to understand the game in a way that text cannot. If I told you that this was the main character of a certain video game, and this was the main character of a second game, that would give you a feel for the design team's intent for those games in a way that words cannot.
    • In the interest of getting this FAC completed, I've moved the image to the character list. Pagrashtak 18:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • For Image:GoldOoTn64Cart.jpg, I'm not going to push the point on #8, so I've removed it, but I don't see how it violates #1. If the licensing was incorrect and the image is free, it is not subject to NFCC. If the licensing is correct, then any replacement image would have to fall under the same license, so no free replacement is available.
    • Ah, I'm used to #1 referring to other images. That makes more sense. By the way, it would help me if you could collapse or strike your resolved comments—this page is getting long and it will help me to not miss anything left open. Pagrashtak 23:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Pagrashtak 23:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, much improved and concerns (mostly) addressed. Oppose, 1b and some misc prose and sourcing issues below.
      • Woefully lacking in production information. You tantalize by describing the large staff and stuntmen but then leave us hanging. To be comprehensive, the article really needs information on how the game was developed, why such a staff was required, the decision-making processes, etc.
      • Please take the Japanese characters out of the lead.
      • "... the game was instead released on the largest cartridge Nintendo had produced at the time." Do you mean its physical size or its data capacity?
      • I have to say I think a photo of the cartridge would add to the article since you mention it prominently in the lead, especially if it's freakishly large.
      • "Link travels through time and navigates several dungeons to awaken sages with the power to seal Ganondorf." Clarity needed.. I can't tell if the sages have the power or Link is using the power to awaken them.
      • "The game received wide critical acclaim and commercial success." Reword... things don't "receive" success.
      • "... it was praised for taking elements of the two-dimensional games and successfully translating them into the third dimension." The game did not do this, the programmers did.
      • "The control scheme introduced techniques such as context-sensitive actions and a targeting system called "Z-targeting" that became standard for adventure games." Maybe I missed it, but your source doesn't exactly back up this statement. I see "Set the standard for adventure games in 3D." but I don't see where they specify that the examples you mentioned in particular set the standard.
      • "Demand was so great that Electronics Boutique stopped pre-selling the title on November 3, 1998; IGN reported that some retail employees were unsure if Nintendo would be able to fulfill the initial demand." Hm. Implies that EB stopped pre-selling the game because of what "retail employees" thought, which is highly unlikely. Unless you have a source stating exactly why EB stopped pre-selling, better to just end the sentence after the date. --Laser brain (talk) 19:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've taken care of the easier ones, I'm looking into the others. As for the Japanese characters, your request (possibly) conflicts with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). As this is under discussion at the VG project, I'm leaving it for the time being but won't revert if someone else removes it. Regarding the image of the cartridge, I just removed one—you and Black Kite will have to fight it out. Pagrashtak 20:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've stricken the Japanese characters comment since this isn't really the place to debate it. I'm discussing the issue of the image of the cartridge with Black Kite; the image use policy states that a photograph of a 3-dimensional object creates a new copyright. I believe an image of the gold cartridge can be given a free license (by its photographer) and placed in the article. --Laser brain (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Laser brain, I've expanded the development section and removed the phrase that's not exactly supported by the ref. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Pagrashtak 06:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:03, 17 April 2008.

    Valley Parade

    I'm nominating this article for featured article because I've improved the article in line with other football grounds recently featured, Portman Road and Priestfield Stadium, and now think this one is also ready for FAC. I've put it through a Peer Review, which included a copy edit, and now put it forward for comments to a wider audience. NB This is a self-nomination Peanut4 (talk) 22:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 15:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Granted that the information isn't exactly controversial, what makes http://www.footballgroundguide.com/ a reliable site?
    • I'll leave this one up for folks to judge for themselves. I'm on the fence about it. Its so uncontroversial that it's hard to get to picky. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    the links all checked out using the link checker tool and the other sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The writing is reasonable, but a run-through by someone fresh to it is necessary. I found little glitches here and there, such as:
      • "when they changed code from rugby football to association football and became Bradford City"—A football club became a city?
      • "Manningham Rugby Football Club, which had been formed in 1876, had originally played their games ..."—Had ... had. Try: "Manningham Rugby Football Club, formed in 1876, had originally played their games ...".
      • "their ... their"—watch those repetitions; can you do an audit throughout?
      • "The area was already known as Valley Parade—the site of the new ground was described to Manningham's board as near the Valley Parade skating rink[7]—because it was on the hillside below Manningham.[1] The ground adopted the new name and the road on which it stands is also called Valley Parade." Why the skating rink point embedded in this sentence? Twists and winds.
      • "The original ground was composed of a 2,000-capacity stepped enclosure with the players' changing rooms below, the playing area, a cinder athletics track and fencing to limit the total capacity to 18,000." "Comprised a 2000-seat stepped" would be better.
      • "when financial and playing difficulties"—what are playing difficulties?
      • "8,000-capacity stand"—again. Is this the normal term? I'd have thought "8,000-seat".
      • "The stadium remained virtually unchanged until 1952, and was still recognisable in 1985"—"recognisable" is assuming quite a "given" (that it's from the perspective of an old-timer). Express in terms of change, as in the first clause.
      • Why is "yards" linked? And why is the pounds symbol linked?
      • "With" is a very poor connector. "with all but the East Stand being two-tiered"—try ", all two-tiered by the e s".

    Stuff like that. See if you can get the whole thing polished; don't just deal with the random examples. TONY (talk) 12:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose: This is not a fixed position, but I cannot support at the moment. The lead is good, clear and concise, but the History section, which is most of the article, needs a considerable amount of attention.

    • The section is a dense mass of facts. You should consider whether some of the more detailed and less important information might be deleted, and other tangential facts, such as the Gateshead appeal, might better be given by way of footnotes.
    • The section should be subdivided under appropriate headings, to give it an internal structure. It's down to you to decide what these subsections should be, but I'd suggest "Early days" for the period up to 1903, another section up to the early fifties, another up to the fire, and a final section to bring it up to date - but these are only suggestions.
    • You also need to look at individual paragraphs, some of which are overlong and switch to different topics without a break.
    • A thorough copyedit of the text is necessary. Some sentences are too long (e.g. second sentence of section), some are awkwardly phrased, (second and third sentences, and there are others further down).

    There are other points which I think need clarification, but I won't bring these up for the present, and some might be cleared up anyway, if the above is attended to. I am impressed by the amount of research that has gone into this article, and feel that it's worth doing the extra work. Brianboulton (talk) 13:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thanks very much for both your suggestions. I've tried my best to address the points made by both of you, and some input has been made by another two editors. I've not yet add any sub-sections to the history section, but would be prepared to do, if you still feel it needs one. Any other suggestions are most welcome. Peanut4 (talk) 22:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it needs subsections, I'd prefer one eight paragraph section to three sections of two or three paragraphs, which might risk breaking the flow. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I strongly disagree, but see my detailed comments below. Brianboulton (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. No significant factual issues or omissions presented themselves when I went through the article, and it compares favourably with others of the same type. Good to see Inglis' seminal The Football Grounds of Great Britain used as a reference too, a definite sign that a thorough job has been done. Full disclosure: I have done some copyediting during the course of this nomination, but have not otherwise made any significant contributions to the article. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    You have addressed some of my concerns, but others remain. The chief one is still the lack of structure in the History section. Despite the remarks of the reviewer above, I believe that a fact-packed history covering 120+ years and a number of distinct phases is not best served by this amount of undifferentiated prose. It’s too easy for the reader to get lost in the mass of facts. If you insist on not subdividing, then you need at the very least to have more logic in your paragraph breaks, and I have also made some suggestions in this respect.

    Another point of slight concern to me, reading through, is the extent to which you may have assumed the reader’s prior knowledge of the structure of English football, with references to various Divisions, the Premiership, promotion etc. I know that the article is about the ground, but on some occasions, which I have indicated, I think a few words of explanation would be appropriate.

    The following are my detailed points of concern:

    • History section
      • A natural paragraph break would be after “Midland Railway Company”
      • £1,400 needs a modern approximate equivalence
      • “top part” of new ground is not geographically precise
      • Suggest “comprised” rather than “was composed of”
      • The one-year-old stand moved to the top part doesn’t appear in the ground description
      • “…the players’ changing rooms below.” Below in what sense – underneath the stepped enclosures?
      • It would help understanding if the game against Wakefield Trinity was described as “reserve” or “friendly”.
      • Suggest reword to avoid repetition of “first” in “first team played their first…”
      • Comma needed after Valley Parade in last line of para
      • There is a natural subsection break at this point.
      • Second sentence of para: “The first association football….”
      • Bradford City “was”, not “were” elected
      • I’m a bit confused about the changing arrangements – what happened to the players’ changing rooms below the stepped enclosure?
      • 5-1 defeat by, not “to” Man city
      • Drop comma after “As a result…”
      • Clarify it was a ground, not a club, reconstruction programme
      • Drop comma after “5,300-seater main stand”
      • You say they built a Spion Kop and an 8,000-capacity stand at the Midland Road end. You haven’t yet defined this end geographically. Also, according to the link, a Spion Kop is a stand. Does that mean two stands built at the Midland Road end?
      • “Dressing-rooms” is a change of description – formerly changing rooms. But I’m really confused by a tunnel apparently leading from underneath the Kop to the opposite corner of the ground. That sounds like a tunnel under the pitch. Surely you can’t mean that?
      • The cost of £9958 should have a modern equivalent
      • Better not to use “completed” twice in quick succession
      • Surely matches “take place” – they don’t “occur”?
      • At start of next para the age of the ground isn’t really the lead point, it’s the purchase of the ground in 1932. I would reword along the following lines: “On 17 March 1932 Bradford City paid the Midland Railway Company £3,750 (2008 equivalent approx. £120,000) for the remaining two-thirds of the site, to become outright owners of the ground, which was now 45 years old”. I’d also tag this on to the previous para because hereafter you’re talking post WW2. For good measure I’d start a new subsection here.
      • “virtually unchanged” from when? From the 1908 changes I assume, but this should be made clear.
      • From this point on I get terribly confused about the various stand rebuildings. I can’t quite fathom how it can be clarified, but I’m lost from the moment you say that half the Midland Road stand was closed and its steel frame sold for £450. That sounds like a demolition – with half the stand still open! Thereafter it’s very difficult to follow, and I wonder whether the stand history could be simplified, instead of the detailed stage-by-stage account.
      • When you say the new stand was the “narrowest”, is this good or bad? The point need explaining.
      • The sell-and-buy back deal with the Council sounds like a fix. Is there a story here?
      • I’d start my final subsection with the fire paragraph
      • “one of the worst sporting disasters” is an incomplete statement, needs a context. Worst in Britain, the world, of all time, etc. As it stands it’s too general a statement.
      • “secured”, in loan terms, has a specific meaning. I think you mean the MPs negotiated or obtained the loans
      • Watch for consistency in capitalisation of Kop
      • I’m not pressing this point, but City’s promotion “back to Division 1” is misleading in footballing terms since Division 1 was I believe the renamed Second Division
      • Try to avoid duplication of “opened”
      • I'd have a para break after “27 March 1997”, within the same subsection
      • Perhaps a very brief explanation of why the club went into administration would be useful: “The financial consequences of the club’s relegation after two Premiership seasons meant that it was forced into administration”. Something like that?

    *Structure and facilities

      • “The Sunwin stand is the ground’s main stand and is called such…” Does “such” refer to Sunwin or main stand?
      • “family stand” – usually capitalised
      • “bantamspast” – needs explaining rather than simply appearing in the text
      • “Away fans” might need explaining to non-football people. “Visiting team fans”?
    • Fire: The sentence ending the penultimate para repeats information given in the History section
    • Other users: I think the words “the majority of which” are unnecessary in the third line from the bottom, and that the last line could refer to “their” ground.
    • Records: I’d rearrange this information so that the highest league attendance details came immediately after the record crowd information, and that the highest gate receipts came as the final sentence of the paragraph. I’d also say, for accuracy, “City’s official highest seasonal average…”
    • I think that there are nbsp violations throughout the article (45 years, 40 minutes, 56 spectators, 20 years, 29 games – possibly others). These should be checked.

    Brianboulton (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • The final few points from structure onwards are pretty uncontroversial so I've done them. However I don't think family stand should be capitalised because it's not a proper noun. I'll add the non-breaking spaces in at the end unless any crop up later on. If I forget, bug me. Will try get on with the rest now. Peanut4 (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    These points are fine now. I'll do the nbsps I've found, as mentioned above, but I suggest you do a quick check for others. Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Right. I think I've done most of the above, with the following exceptions:
      • Modern equivalent of values. I'll add some footnotes to explain this. But I don't know how to find the modern values. And my only concern with this, is that they would need continually updating.
    Modern equivalents of pre WW1 values can only be approximate. My normal practice has been to put a parenthetical note, e.g. (2008 equivalent = £xxxx) £1,400 in 1887 was a considerable sum in 1887, and some indication of its present worth would be helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know what the Wakefield Trinity game was. I guess it was an exhibition game of some kind, but it's only a guess. None of the sources say what game it was. And the only source explaining Wakefield and Leeds games, simply says the first game was against Wakefield, but the first, 1st team, game was against Leeds.
        • Two sources seem to contradict each other. I've deleted the Leeds game and simply said the Wakefield game was the first, which is consistent across all sources.
    That's OK Brianboulton (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, you win Brianboulton (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Re: changing rooms. Again the source never mentions what happens to the original changing rooms so I can't guess. As with the above point, I will try my damndest to read over all the sources again to find out, but nowhere seems to say.
        • I've found some info. They appear to have been updated following changes first started in 1897.
      • When you say the new stand was the “narrowest”, is this good or bad? The point need explaining. It's neither good nor bad, simply that in order to open the stand again, they had to build it so narrow. If you think it needs a bit more explanation, let me know.
    Sounds more to me like one of those dispensable facts not worth mentioning. I'd drop it, or leave it as it is - no more explanation. Brianboulton (talk)#
      • The sell-and-buy back deal with the Council sounds like a fix. Is there a story here? Very possibly but it would be WP:OR. The source calls it "Heginbotham's shrewdness and business acumen."
    OK Brianboulton (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The administration was down to a host of reasons. And not really related to the ground except for the affects it had to be sold - which is in the text.
    Not sure I accept this analysis, unless you're sure that the costs incurred in developing the ground for the Premier League had nothing to do with the administration. Brianboulton (talk)
      • I've still left in without sub-sections. My personal feeling would be simply one for "Up to and including the fire" and "Post-fire" because they are two distinct periods of the ground. But I feel the fire would act too much as a splice. It was as a result of the past, and had an affect on the future. Peanut4 (talk) 20:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support The lack of subsections continues to trouble me. You've made it better by adopting more natural paragraph breaks, but I continue to believe that a narrative of this length is navigated more easily with signpost section headings. You have, however, done enough for me to remove my original oppose. The very best of luck to you, after all your efforts. Brianboulton (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

    I've reordered some of the citations so they appear numerically, just in case you wondered what I'd done.

    • Why is Carlsberg Stand linked to Carlsberg? Misleading link, just link Carlsberg.
    • Don't like the text squashed between the two quote boxes, can you stagger them?

    Otherwise it's very good. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Caulfield Grammar School Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Marshall Field and Company Building

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:05, 19 April 2008.

    previous FAC (23:41, 8 March 2008)

    Self-nomination: This article was nominated for FA too early last time, but hopefully this time it might be OK. It has been through a Peer Review and has just achieved GA status after a lot of work over the past few weeks. All concerns with copyright on photographs has been cleared up since last time too, with official permission for all, except the ones taken by me, now held by Wikipedia. I am happy to do whatever work needed to get it through to FA, just tell me what to do! --seahamlass 17:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 02:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Have replaced with cached version.
    • Who is behind http://www.research-lincs.org.uk/? The County?
    • http://www.swallowsbarn.co.uk/viking_way.htm what makes this a reliable source, it's a bed and breakfast site.
    • The Knight, Charles "Penny Cyclopedia" ref is lacking a publisher (it says 13 right now but the googlebooks link says it was self published? or was he a publisher?)
    • http://www.lincolncottage.co.uk/ToSee.aspx isn't a very good source for The city of Lincoln was very important at this time, as it was likely the capital of the late Roman Province of Flavia Caesariensis. In fact, I can't even see on that page anything about the roman capital I suspect a footnote got switched around somehow.
    Okay, you replaced with http://www.roman-britain.org but who is behind this new site and what makes them a reliable source?
      • Have taken second ref out as well. The fact is actually referenced in the Navenby Archaeology ref after next sentence.
    • http://www.knightstemplar-uk.co.uk/Pentagram-Symbol,-Pentagram-Meaning,-Pentagram-Picture/114/Pentagram-Symbol.html what make this a reliable source for some (dubious) information that the Templars used the pentagram? I suggest running that past some of the editors of templar articles.That website's group, no matter what they claim, was not founded in 1118, and is probably just another group trading on the Templar myth. None of my historical books on the Templars mention the pentagram being used by them.
    I looked at your sites, but none of them list the sources where they are getting their information. Just because there are websites saying it doesn't mean they are reliable sites. You're wanting scholarly books on this one, trust me. There is enough cruft out there about the Templars that you need ironclad sourcing for anything about the Templars. May I suggest you just drop second paragraph in the Folklore:Pentagram section as it's really not necessary for an article about a town.
    done Have taken ref out and replaced with newspaper story confirming he was based at Cranwell etc plus book ref.
    Have removed ref and replaced with two book refs
    • Current ref 21 "2001 2001 census statistics" says "Government" for the publisher. Which government?:
    British - I've changed it
    -Removed and replaced
    Removed and replaced
    Removed and replaced
    Yes you are. However, despite going through the site, I couldn't find any reference to the building being Grade II listed (please feel free to correct me if I've overlooked it!) - hence my decision to cite another website as a reference - http://www.andersonandglenn.com/architecture2.htm .I have now added: http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=192469&mode=quick as well, but again this is not ideal, as it doesn't immediately refer to the building as Mrs Smith's Cottage....
    The backed up ref works.
    • St Peter's In Debt gave me a server error.
    Still OK for me
    • Is http://www.genuki.org.uk/ like the US websites Rootsweb, i.e. is it mostly done by volunteers? If so, I'm not sure it is a reliable source. It doesn't give the sources of its information.
    Genuki is mentioned simply dozens of times by reputable sources, which are considered as reliable refs for Wikipedia. Hope this persuades you!
    The Wikipedia description of GENUKI is this: "GENUKI is a genealogy web portal, run as a charitable trust. Its aim is "to serve as a "virtual reference library" of genealogical information that is of particular relevance to the UK & Ireland". The name derives from "GENealogy of the UK and Ireland"." I've seen the site quoted in many, many Wikipedia articles.
    • First: The head page for the GENUKI page says "The information provided by GENUKI must not be used for commercial purposes, and all specific restrictions concerning usage, copyright notices, etc., that are to be found on individual information pages within GENUKI must be strictly adhered to. Violation of these rules could gravely harm the cooperation that GENUKI is obtaining from many information providers and hence threaten its whole future." which leads me to believe they are recieving their information from many sources and people, kinda like a wiki
    • Two: The page you are using as a citation doesn't give it's sources. There is no author listed, unless it's the bit at the bottom "Last updated Louis R. Mills" who is the author.
    • Three: The page isn't designed as a history page, it's designed to help folks researching their ancestry find records.
    Let's look at the specifics that you are using this page to source.
    a) is the fact that there was a Roman's had a base or garrison in the village, or is it that the village was on the Roman Ermine Street? To be honest, you have a better source for both statements in the second ref on the sentence.
    b) You then use it to reference that the town had charters from Edward the Confessor, William Rufus, and Richard II. But what the source says is not that it was MADE a market town by the charters, just that the market town HAD charters.
    c) Your third statement ref'd to the page is "Parish records exist for Navenby from 1681, although Bishop's transcripts go back to 1562. The documents show the village hosted two annual fairs while operating as a market town, one on 17 October for farm animals, and the other a feast on the Thursday before Easter. Another popular event was a Hiring Fair for servants, which was held each May Day. Servants gathered to seek employment and were taken on for a period of one year." This is there as the bare facts on the page, but I don't see anything about the hiring fair being popular. Nor does it give the period of time the servants were hired for.
    d) The next paragraph sourced to the webpage (and one subpage) is "The records also show that care of the poor was taken seriously in Navenby from at least 1772, when part of the parish was enclosed. Such was the significance of Navenby at this time that a workhouse for the parish poor was erected here, although this was later given over to other uses. A Sick Society was also founded in 1811, to provide for the frail and elderly, and a Parish School was built next to St Peter's Church by subscription in 1816. Following the 1834 Poor Law Amendment Act, however, Navenby parish became part of the Lincoln Poor Law Union." But the page only gives a bare recitation of the facts, not the "show that the care of the poor was taken seriously from at least 1772". I do believe the first Poor Law in England dates from Elizabeth the First's reign, but I may be wrong. ** This paragraph refers to the Amended Poor Law Act - and, just to be certain, I've checked it out very, very carefully just now! --seahamlass 18:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And so forth, I could go on, but the main objection is that there is no source given for where this information comes from. Probably, it is from a local history, but we don't know. It's not designed to be used as a historical reference, it's there to help genealogists find records. It says so right on the front page "Virtual reference library of genealogical information" not historical information. It would probably squeak by for information about what records are still available, since that is its purpose. I'm not opposing the article based on its sources, I"m just commenting. But there is nothing wrong with citing a published book for an article. There will be published local histories that are reliable and would be perfect for use in this article. Try using This source which IS a historical work and is reliable. It is an online database of published histories. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Still lacking publisher information for the Lewis, Samuel ref. Either "British History Online" or the original publisher of the book will work. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done using original publisher

    ::** I can't really "prove" that www.raybeckham.co.uk is a reliable site, as Navenby is so small that it rarely attracts press attention and this website therefore hasn't been publicised. It is, however, cited on the official Navenby website, Navenby.net, as a place to go for extra information on the village. I really don't want to lose the information provided by these refs, but I can see the WP problem, so I have backed them up with book references - hopefully that is OK?--seahamlass 19:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]

    No, if you check the first page of his Navenby records site http://www.raybeckham.co.uk/village_map.html, you will see that he doesn't sell the pics on the website, but will provide pics if you want them and just asks for donations to charity. He is a local historian, living in Navenby, and this history part of this website is his project. The links in the article link directly to the information cited - not to the more commercial index you have listed.
    To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. It is all based on WP:V, WP:RS and WP:SELFPUB. Hope this helps some. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    the links all checked out using the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    May I suggest you use the Ray Beckham site as an external ref, now that you have the information sourced to other references? That way you don't have any issues. *Done: Done as suggested.
    • And one more. You're still using the templarmechanics site for the bit about the hellfire club. The other usage of it is backed up by a book, but the site is not going to be reliable for information on the Hellfire club connections. Definite progress though! Ealdgyth - Talk 20:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    This site Pastscape might help you with your Grade II building issues. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments: OK, I've seen this article emmerge over the last few months from a troubled (but promising) stub to FAC, where we're at today. I really want this to pass FA this time round. Here's my comments/queries/challenges for now:
    1. Prose: The most striking need of this article is a good copy-edit by someone with fresh eyes; the content is all there in place, it just needs to be written slightly clearer in some cases. I'd recommend the aid of User:Malleus Fatuarum and/or User:Epbr123 (but can't guarantee they will help).
      Done: User:Malleus Fatuarum carried out a marathon session on it on April 13.
    2. Scope: I'm still concerned that the article discusses alot about nearby Lincoln, particularly in the "Sports and recreation" section. Of course it will have an impact upon Navenby, but the cultural/commericial link with the city isn't made clear enough in the article. Would it be accurate (and verifable) to say Navenby is a dormitory village for Lincoln perhaps?
      Done: The fact it is a dormitory village was already mentioned in the 'modern history' section, but I have explanded this slightly.
    3. Images: Not a barrier to FA by any means, but to my tastes and sensibilities, there are way too many images for the article. Less really can be more! For example, Manchester, a major metropolis has 5 images in History (compared with 6 for Navenby village), 1 vs 2 for Governance, 1 vs 4 for Geography, 3 vs 4 for Landmarks and so on.... Simillarly Neilston and Wormshill, both comparable village articles with FA status, each have just a few images distributed throughout, but retain sound presentation and context. I'd be inclined to reduce the number of images by at least a third, perhaps half.
      Done: I have removed 12 or 13 now - I think. Is that any better?
    4. There are a few gaps in knowledge under Governance. In this section we're missing stuff on how Navenby was governed between the Local Government Act 1888 and Local Government Act 1974; Was it part of a Rural District, Urban District or Municipal Borough during this time perhaps? Also, who was Navenby's first Member of Parliament, and when was he/she elected? These are important bites of information for readers.
      Done: Hope is OK?
    5. In Governance, we have images of houses that provide little context for the text they accompany. Perhaps this image could go there instead, with a caption that these are the parish boundary markers?
    • Done
    1. I'd remove the three sub-headings under Transport. They simply split up three paragraphs that could form a good single section.
      Done
    2. As above, I think it might be possible to rejig some the Geography section whereby some of the subheadings could go. Oldham tackles Geography well in my opinion, as does Wormshill.
    • Done: Got rid of three sub-headings

    That's it for now. Hope these help. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Issues resolved, ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Image:Navenbywitch.jpg and Image:Navstation.jpg both need to provide verifiable sources per WP:IUP. The latter, also, does not have adequate reasoning or information to support the claim of public domain. Assertion of "This picture is over 70 years old and out of copyright" is false, as PD is determined by date of first publication (not coming into existence), or, alternatively, by the life time of the author. When was this first published? Who was the author? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 17:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The image Image:Navenbywitch.jpg has full permission for use in the public domain. This was granted by the Portable Antiquities Scheme and the official headed email with their permission has been lodged with Wikipedia. This is confirmed on the image page with the phrase: "The permission for use of this work has been archived in the Wikimedia OTRS system (2008032410019077)." I don't need a 'verifiable source' to prove this to you - Wikipedia has all the official documentation.
      • The image Image:Navstation.jpg is an old postcard. No author given. It was posted in around 1920, dating the card to this time. Copyright expires on photos after 70 years in Britain. The author of this picture is quite obviously deceased, as even if they were 25 when this picture was taken, they would be 113 now. Also, as far as I can be sure, photos are considered in the public domain in America if published before 1923 - so this just sqeaks in. --seahamlass 18:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Please read my comments critically. Indicating source has nothing to do with copyright status. Copyright status is not in question for Navenbywitch. You don't have to prove anything "to me"; you do, however, have to be civil and follow image policy.
    Regarding Navstation, that information needs to be articulated on the image page. You're using a US PD tag, so the British criterion is irrelevant. Publishing in 1920 indeed qualifies it for PD, but that information is absent from the image page. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Look, if I sounded a bit tetchy, then sorry. The pics on this page have already been scrutinised from here to kingdom come, and back again. (During a GA review, when an over-zealous editor speedily deleted half and they had to be put back by an admin after emailed agreements for use was provided by all in triplicate...well, virtually). It was your remark: "Assertion of "This picture is over 70 years old and out of copyright" is false," that annoyed me, as it sounded as if you were accusing me of lying. Which I'm not. I have just added what I wrote here to the image pages of the photos. I really hope that makes the WP:IUP thingy OK.--seahamlass 19:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Seahamlass, Elcobbola is very knowledgeable about image policy, and as the author of a featured article, is also anxious to help you succeed at FAC. Whatever went on pre-FAC at GAC, peer review, or anywhere else is secondary here; we must examine all issues at FAC thoroughly. Please work with Elcobbola, as he is most knowledgeable in this area. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Seahamlass, apologies if remarks were misinterpreted. "Lying" involves deliberate intent to deceive or misinform, which I certainly did not believe to be the case. "False" only means incorrect; there is no connotation of intent. That notwithstanding,the source has been provided for "Witch" and a date of publication for "station"; that is all that was needed. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues resolved, --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments. Obviously a lot of love gone into this article, and I've done some copyediting on it myself today. But I do have a few concerns still:
    • I agree with Jza84's comment (above) that there are too many images. It would help the article a lot if you trimmed them down to those that really add value to the article. I'd say that about half of them ought to go.
    • Done: I've taken out 12 or 13 now
    • I'm unhappy especially about the images in Culture and community which seems largely to be an advert for the three public houses in the village. "It ... serves real ale and home-cooked food ... It has a garden and restaurant and the traditional pub game of Table Skittles can be played here.
    • Done: I have 'revamped' this section and removed the "serves real ale.... and table skittles" bits. Have to agree, did sound rather like an advert. Now the paragraph just concentrates on the history of the pubs instead, and the fact they are Grade II listed etc. Have also removed the pix of the pubs, as per your suggestion.
    • From the Folklore subsection: "The pentagram includes the nearby villages of Temple Bruer – which has strong connections with the Knights Templar of the 12th century – as well have nearby Wellingore and Harmston." I've got no idea what that means. As well have? What's the significance of the pentagram? If there isn't any, then why include it? If there is, then why not explain it?
    • Sorry, that should have read 'as well as' not 'as well have'. I've changed it.
    • There are too many short subsections in Culture and community. Does it need any at all?
    • Done: I have fiddled round with this, and removed all the subsections per your suggestion, so now just one section.
    • "Navenby, originally an agricultural village, became a market town on receiving charters from Edward the Confessor, William Rufus and Richard II of England, during the Middle Ages." I've been wondering what that means all afternoon. Did it become a market town several times, losing that status between kings, or what?
    • Done: Changed the sentence
    • "The wide main street, which now doubles as Navenby High Street, is lasting evidence of its market town status." Doubles as Navenby High Street? What does that mean? And why is a wide street evidence of anything other than, well, a wide street?
    • Done: Added reason for width - driving flocks of sheep to market requires wide roads, and took out "doubles as."

    --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Comments. I'm tipping towards support now (well done for being brutal with the images btw;-)), just a few further points:[reply]

    • "The Saxon name for Navenby has not survived ...". Does that mean it's unknown?
    • Yes. Changed it to say that to say not known.
    • "The Vikings exerted considerable influence over Lincolnshire from the 9th century ...". From the 9th century until when?
    • Changed to say "in the 9th and 10th centuries"
    • "People aged between 25 and 44 represent the largest majority in Navenby ...". There can't be a largest majority, a majority is a majority.
    • Changed to: "People aged between 25 and 44 represent the majority of Navenby residents."
    • "... a purpose-built visitor centre, used for exhibitions about Navenby and of local interest." Doesn't read quite right. " ... Navenby and the local area"?
    • Changed to: "for exhibitions about Navenby and the local area."
    • From the lead: "Navenby became a market town on being granted its charters by Edward the Confessor, William Rufus and Richard II of England." Can you make this match what the body of the article now says?
    • Done Same words as main piece now.
    --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I jiggled the pix around today - getting rid of 14 - so you probably came across this after my major crash and burn job. I think I've corrected this now, but please let me know if I haven't.--seahamlass 22:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I'm coming round to supporting this article. I'm still worried about this Lincoln link. Could something about this be put into the lead about it being a dorm village for Lincoln perhaps? It's not a condition for FA, I just happen to think this would help. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Done

    Support. A well-written and well-researched article on a small English village. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. Per Malleus. Hits the spot for me too. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment Why are the culture and economy/media sections near the end, and the transport section earlier. It seems to me like 'transport' is more a minor, infrastructure-related topic, and should be de-emphasized in the order of sections. On the other hand, culture and economy are far more important when describing a city, town, or region, and should be placed far earlier in the order of sections. Dr. Cash (talk) 13:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    It still needs fresh eyes to sift through carefully. Here are random examples:

    • "Navenby returned to being the rural village it had been before"—eeuw, "N returned to being a rural village."
    • Done: Changed as suggested
    • "Evidence suggests that Navenby was a significant staging point along Ermine Street; the Romans are reported to have maintained a small base or garrison in the village. A possible Romano-British temple and some burial sites have been unearthed in the village.[6][4]" Still don't like explicit mention of "evidence", generally. Here, it's repetitious; why not: "Navenby was probably a significant staging point along Ermine Street – the Romans are reported to have maintained a small base or garrison in the village,[2] and a possible Romano-British temple and some burial sites have been unearthed in the village.[6][4]" Are the burial sites possibly Romano-British too? If so, remove the fuzzy "some".
    • Done: I have removed the 'fuzzy' word 'some.' Agree it was unecessary. I have left in the word 'evidence,' however, as the finds unearthed by archaeologists at the site are classed as evidence, but I have chopped and changed these sentences a bit.
    • "Parish records exist for Navenby from 1681, although bishop's transcripts go back to 1562."—plural bishops'? Replace "although" with "and"? "hosted several annual fairs"—you mean several each year, or annual fairs in several years (1732, 1741 and 1750)?
    • Done: Swapped to plural bishops - bishops' Added 'each year' after "hosted several annual fairs"

    Tony (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment The presentation of many of the citations still needs to be improved to meet 2c of the criteria for my support. In particular, many of the titles used in the citations are editorial descriptions, rather than the given title of the source; this is misleading. Some dates are still abitrarily given where none or a different one is given on the source itself. The references for radio stations are just websites and don't mention Navenby. Publisher/author names are a little arbitrary too. I'm not a fan of "Suchandsuch.com website"; you wouldn't cite "The Times newspaper", for example. This is a big article and doing very well, so don't be too surprised that there are a lot of details to fix to get it to a polished standard. BigBlueFish (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • OK - all book refs are now standardised - I hope. I have gone through them all, but getting tired and blurry now.. Will do net refs tomorrow.
    • Done: Standardised the source titles on the web references. Hopefully I haven't missed any out.
    • I'll try something. I am amazed at the referencing and the amount of info. I was just thinking of some minor points and one not so minor. Minor first, parish council and county council need not necessarily be capitalised. I'm not quite sure on the RoadGhosts.com part in the actual naming of a website but...
    • I have lower capped parish council, per your suggestion, as it didn't actually name the parish council involved, just referred to it as an organisation. However, I have kept North Kesteven District Council capped up, as that is the actual name of the council. Thanks for spotting that.

    A slightly more serious point is, do you have a source for the population (maybe link it to the right page on the ONS)...? Simply south (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Done: I've added this one [[12]], as it is from the Government, so verifiable and reliable etc. Hope this is OK?
    • Comment: I would prefer to see a little more in the governance section about the civil parish and its antecedents, and more about its ecclesiastical history (with respect to its ecclesiastical parish.) My source is Youngs, F. A. (1991). Guide to the Local Administrative Units of England. (Volume 1: Northern England). London: Royal Historical Society. ISBN 0861931270.
      Civil parish: In addition to the information you have already included, Navenby civil parish boundaries were adjusted in 1931 to include the entire civil parish of Skinnand, and no other boundary changes in modern times have been recorded. (Youngs book, page 273) This could also be referenced in the Topography section, as it is the means by which the civil parish increased in size (Youngs book is an authoritative source for boundary changes around this time.) The GenUKI entries for Navenby and Skinnand also give some more information of unknown reliability and validity, but a better source should be found than it if any of this information were to be included.
      Poor Law Union and Rural Sanitary District: Both Navenby and Skinnand had been placed in the Lincoln Poor Law Union in 1834, and they were also part of the Lincoln Rural Sanitary Districts. I suggest these go in the Governance section, as they were connected with the parishes, and succeeded by the local government changes which brought in rural districts. (Youngs book, pages 247, 273, and 278.) The GenUKI entries with the same caveat as mentioned previously also give more information.
      Ecclesiastical parish: The article would be improved by adding material about its ecclesiastical status and history. The same Youngs book, same pages, states that Navenby ecclesiastical parish is in the Diocese of Lincoln, and that it was in Longoboby Rural Deanery until 1968 when it was transferred to Graffoe Rural Deanery.(Youngs book, pages 247, 273.) The Skinnand part of the current ecclesiastical parish had made the transfer from Longoboby Rural Deanery to Graffoe Rural Deanery in 1884. (Youngs book, page 278.) Again, the GenUKI entries with the same caveat as mentioned previously give more information.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just got back from 440-mile journey...so blurry eyed and shattered. Will look at this tomorrow. I really liked all the GENUKI stuff on Navenby and quoted quite a lot originally, but had to remove it as not a reliable source. I'll hit the books in the morning. --seahamlass 19:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There's still plenty you can add without going to the GENUKI site (which I agree is not really suitable to use as a source, but could be useful to use as a means to guide searches through reliable sources). I've given you a reasonable amount that could be added without searching further, as I've provided full references from a reliable source for much I what I suggested anyway. I think it would add to an article that is already good.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment – Either I have overdone it with the champagne or there is something seriously wrong with this sentence: "The road runs between the neighbouring villages of Boothby Graffoe and Wellingore and covers more than 2,100 acres (8.5 km²)." Waltham, The Duke of 06:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I have forgotten to mention that the sentence in question is in the intro. I have also done some copy-editing in the history section; there were a couple of minor errors but nothing significant. I am now moving further down. Waltham, The Duke of 06:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have just swapped that sentence around - it was rather confusing!

    Comment: The first paragraph after the block quote in the Governance section is not quite correct, and the cited reference doesn't actually verify what is written at that point, and neither does the Youngs book, which I used to make my previous comments. The text currently reads "Navenby was classed as an ancient and civil parish from the 11th century, until England’s break with Rome in the mid-16th century.[33]" The web-based reference (correctly) states that Navenby was an Ancient Parish, and that it is a civil parish, but the two periods of this don't coincide, and nothing is mentioned in the web reference or Youngs book about any break from Rome or the time at whicjh the terms "ancient parish" or "civil parish" came to an end. In fact, civil parishes only came into being after the reforms in Local Government in the nineteenth century. "Ancient parish" is the term generally used to describe the old parishes of England which combined together civil and ecclesiastical administrative duties. Following the Dissolution of the Monasteries (the split with Rome, that the passage mentioned), these parishes took on some of the duties (care for the poor, etc) that the monastaries and other religious institutions, then abolished, had had. Over time, more administrative duties were given to the parishes until in 1889, the Interpretation Act completely separated the two kinds of functions, bringing civil parishes into existence. [[Eccesiastical parish]es is the term used for the purely religious unit. I've taken this from a number of sources, some of which are specific to Cheshire, but a general-purpose reliable source which contains all the necessary information would be the book: Winchester, A. (2000). Discovering parish boundaries. Princes Riseborough: Shire Publications Ltd. ISBN 0747804702. pages 5–20. (including chapters with titles "What is a parish?" and "Ancient Parishes".) I suggest a change in wording along the lines of "Navenby was an ancient parish, which began to take on civil duties as well as ecclesiastical duties from the Dissolution of the Monasteries and the Tudor Poor Law Acts onwards. It is now the centre of a civil parish and an ecclesiastical parish." (You can cite the Youngs book, page 245 and 273 for the last sentence. For the bit about the Tudor Poor Law Acts, you can cite the Winchester book, page 7.) I can make these changes for you, if you want, but I thought it was important to describe why they were needed here.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Support: The article is well-written and its coverage is comprehensive and factually accurate.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kenneth Dewar

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:05, 19 April 2008.

    1962 South Vietnamese Independence Palace bombing

    An assassination attempt on President Ngo Dinh Diem by two Vietnam Air Force pilots. Relatively short, since the plot involved only two people and was relatively straightforward: Instead of flying out to attack the Vietcong, they diverted towards Saigon and dropped a few bombs. I have included all information discussed by the books listed at the bottom. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment all the links worked and the sources look good. I like the readability tool link too! Ealdgyth - Talk 13:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Oppose—But can you remove the dot from the first two captions? See MOS. This is not well-written. Here are morsels from the top that suggest there are big problems throughout.

    (Points removed. --ROGER DAVIES talk 14:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)}[reply]
    • "The attack failed to kill Diem and his family, with only his sister-in-law Madame Ngo Dinh Nhu sustaining minor injuries."—What, the other members suffered serious injuries or none at all?
    • "Cu fled to Cambodia, while Quoc was imprisoned"—Rather than imply that these two events necessarily happened simultaneously, why not just "and"?
    • Grammar: "and responded with tightening media freedom and rules of political association" (a tightening of?)
    • "The bombing fueled media speculation that the United States would exploit the incident to place combat troops in South Vietnam and was reported to have prompted plotting against Diem on the part of his officers." Comma after "Vietnam"? "Prompted plotting" not an attractive duo. "By his officers"? Clumsy TONY (talk) 13:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have copyedited the lead. As fate would have it, I copyedited from bottom up on the day of the nom, and the lead was the only part not copyedited. So hopefully the lower part is actually ok. But I will sweep again. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Rejoinder—I took another segment as a sample:

    At that time, US military personnel were theoretically present only in an advisory capacity. With the media questioning the ability of Diem to provide a stable government, US Secretary of State Dean Rusk denied that the US had plans to deploy combat forces. He also ruled out negotiations with the Vietcong, saying that "the root of the trouble" were communist violations of the Geneva Accords.[6] US official John Kenneth Galbraith lobbied Kennedy against deploying sending combat troops, believing that it would lead to endless South Vietnamese requests for further soldiers. Galbraith further believed that the Soviet Union would be happy if the United States wasted more of its resources in the jungles of Vietnam.

    • "Theoretically" means what? Better to use a less ambiguous word.
    Replaced with "officially" - some of them battled it out anyway. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]

    Not good at all. New collaborator needed. TONY (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Comment: I'm not sure if "Presidential Palace" is a widely-used term for the building in English. In Vietnamese it had been "Independence Palace" since Diem's occupation until 1975. It's still known as such on its official website (probably for touristic reasons). DHN (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Yeah, it would be right to move it to the Independence Palace, which I have done. I was simply using PP as a generic term and forgot about the official name. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Comments.

    • "on 27 February 1962" - no need to say the year again
    I know it's obvious from the title, but every article with the year in it also has the full date in the lead. Of course this is not in the main body. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The attack prompted Diem to become more hostile towards the American presence in South Vietnam" --> "The attack made Diem more hostile towards the American presence in South Vietnam", perhaps
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image in Attack section could do with a better caption...
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Quoc and Cu – flying American-built" - would em dashes be better here (and next sentence)?
    Yes. I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "and guards were killed; about thirty others were injured" - change semicolon to comma and put an "and" before "about", I think
    Reworded. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "did not drop the full payload" - a bit uneasy on the jargon...also, do you know why they didn't?
    No we don't. which is why it's weird. Changed to munitions I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • What's the purpose of the image in the Diem reaction section?
    To show us the mug of the person the section is about.....Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, should the section title be "Diem's reaction"?
    If it was in the man prose, yes, but I think these newspaper type headlines are ok in headings....I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]
    Hmm...I would disagree with that on a grammarish basis. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The Diem regime's" - rmv "the"
    Tweaked. Simpy removing it wouldn't have worked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Those copyedits have helped. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support I came to this article as a result of copy-editing request. It's been worked on by several editors during FAC and is crisply written, well-sourced and informative. --ROGER DAVIES talk 05:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I too was asked to copyedit the article. I have made some changes, and I think the article now meets the FA criteria. I just have one request: the Nolting quote in "Aftermath" says the bombing was an "anti-Communist assassination attempt". This gives the impression that the attack against Communists, but it was in fact an attack against an "anti-Communist". You should probably refactor the quote to clarify this. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 18:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 01:10, 15 April 2008.

    Lazare Ponticelli

    Self nomination I know what you're thinking. This article is tiny, and from what, 15 sources? Well, every single thing in this is sourced, and it passed GA and was peer reviewed. I know that the fr: wikipedia's version is longer, but then again, it does have unsourced statements in it. The only thingwe can possibly thaw information out of is his autobiography, which is in french and apparently has lots of pictures. Any issues stated here will be adressed immediatedly. Editorofthewiki 00:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment All the links worked and the sources look good. (Thank goodness for short articles! Yay!) Ealdgyth - Talk 01:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Is that a support? Editorofthewiki 09:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a comment, because I don't have time to do a full review on every FAC, but I do try to look at the sources of every FAC and see how reliable they might be. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support Yup. Neal (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]

    • Comments When I click on the "[A]" note, I'm not taken to the bottom for some reason. "In his later years, he was critical of war in general and kept his war awards in a shoe box." Two disparate ideas (unless the second is somehow connected to the first...sentence does not explain) mashed together into one sentence; makes for awkward sentence. Read further down, and saw "A recipient of several awards, Ponticelli knew it was his age that gave him the medals and kept them in a shoe box", which again tries to somehow connect these two ideas, but isn't very successful. Also "knew it was his age that gave him the medals" is quite awkward and ambiguous. "...the emphasis to be on..." What emphasis? BuddingJournalist 17:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    1) The A note works perfectly for me, it must be something with your computer.
    2) The war awards stuff implies to the reader that, while Ponticelli was proud of his medals, he was humble about it and didn't go around hanging his legion of honor.
    3) Because he was le der des ders the last of the last, he was given these medals, and he knew it.
    4) The emphasis of the procession.

    All added to article. Editorofthewiki 20:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    He earned them for his service and because he lived so dang long. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have received any of the medals.

    Conditional support This is good and it reads nicely. But I would suggest you remove all the citations that are repeated. It really does not help to cite the same Times article a dozen times. There's a growing tendency for people to think that just because there's a footnote behind every sentence or a word, that makes it good. The John McCain article is example of this sort of thing going slightly over the top. Wikidea 18:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    To be more specific, I would suggest combining references where possible. If two or more consecutive sentences are sourced to the same reference, then just reference the last one; it's then implied that everything prior is sourced to that reference. BuddingJournalist 18:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I peronally like sourcing every sentance, even if it was with the above source. If you could link me to a policy or guideline I'd be happy to fix it. Editorofthewiki 20:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think there is any relevant policy or guideline about this. It's just a stylistic suggestion, since it makes article text much easier to read. Many of the articles on Wikipedia employ it, and it's common in academia to have a single citation "cover" a multi-sentence paraphrase of another work. BuddingJournalist 21:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I have fixed everyone I noticed. Editorofthewiki 10:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Excellent article - the fact that it's so short only reflects the fact that there probably just aren't that many notable things to say about him. I just have once concern: the Sarkozy quotation at the end of the article isn't at all integrated into the prose. This kinda makes it seem like Wikipedia is advancing the view Sarkozy is expressing. I would suggest either removing this quotation or, if it is part of the statement mentioned two paragraphs before, moving it to that paragraph.--Carabinieri (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I was thinking of a good way to do that... However, I have discoved a Quote Box that I have added to the article. Editorofthewiki 19:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. Although I can't say I'm completely content with this solution, since I feel having this quote box the way it is does still sort of editorialize Ponticelli's life and his military service, I'm willing to settle for this. --Carabinieri (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    SupportSlight oppose for now, mainly because of some prose rough spots. Changed to support.

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 01:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lead, did he lie about his ancestry or his age? The second sentence of the first paragraph of the lead is a bit confusing. I would think he lied about his ancestry and age, which would explain why he was transferred to the Italian armies. Ah, now I see. The two events aren't really connected. He was tranferred because Italy joined the war, correct? The lead should reflect that, because as it is now written, it implies that he lied about his ancestry and was discovered, which the article itself doesn't support.
    • World War I section, the first sentence of the first paragraph seems awkward to me. Perhaps "In August 1914 when he was 16, he lied about his age to join the 1st Regiment de Marche of the French Foreign Legion, where his older brother Celeste was already serving."?
    • Same section, last paragraph, the third sentence feels odd to me. Perhaps "In 1918 he was gassed in an Austrian chemical attack that killed hundreds of his fellow soldiers."?
    • The quote in the next section needs a citation directly on it, per WP:CITE#When quoting someone
    • Last sentence of Work with Ponticelli Freres section, I think the "there" is unnecessary.
    • I think the third sentence of Later life might work better if it ran something like "Originally offered a state funeral by Jacques Chirac, he initially asserted he did not want one,..."
    Other than these prose concerns, it is a good article, and I'll be happy to support when these prose rough spots are smoothed over. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I hope I have addressed the above issues in a suitable fashion. Editorofthewiki 01:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow! Quick work. Changing to support. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Unconditional support. Extremely sexy (talk) 21:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Force

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 04:05, 23 August 2008 [13].

    Janet Jackson

    Nominator. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult)
    previous FAC (22:25, 9 April 2008)

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 21:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note I'm still on the road, so replies may be slightly delayed. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - I have contributed to the article recently, as part of its peer review. Before that my edits to this article were infrequent and minor.
    I feel that it meets all criteria to a high standard. It is well written, interesting and engaging, and is fully sourced with reliable sources cited. There is variety in the sources so that it represents information drawn from a wide circle which helps reduce the likelihood of any viewpoints being given undue weight. It is neutral and offers a range of critical commentary. In addition to discussing her life and career evenly throughout as a chronology, the article also discusses her place in musical and cultural history and her overall influence and impact. This, I believe, gives it a greater depth than many articles relating to performers. I think it also compares favorably to other featured articles about entertainers, and surpasses many of them, in its depth and coverage. Rossrs (talk) 07:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments:
    Please check such examples. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 08:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    No. I still see a lot from the section Nutty Professor II down. Please do not use double quotation marks inside a quotation; use the single quotation marks instead. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 06:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I double checked and fixed any misquotes I saw. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    *Where is the closing quotation mark here: ...that "Janet was only eight years old when [her father] told her not to call him "Dad" anymore. As her manager, he would henceforth be addressed as "Joseph". Wesley already fixed it. --Efe (talk) 09:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support The article was already in pretty good shape when I finally got around to answering Bookkeeper's requests for assistance (sorry about that). It has since improved even further and should now adhere to all FA criteria. It's very well-done--well-referenced and well-written, comprehensive without getting bogged down by unnecessary detail, is hopefully all the general reader needs to become familiar with the subject--and I'm certain Bookkeeper will do all that is possible to address any remaining concerns that may arise. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments on images and music clips - The fair use rationales look sufficient to me. There are four fair use music clips but I do not know enough about Janet Jackson's music to judge whether they are all necessary; they look fine to me, but others with more knowledge should really weigh in on this point.
    • Image:Janet Jackson & Justin Timberlake's wardrobe malfunction.jpg - The picture we have is not the same as the picture at the source. Awadewit (talk) 16:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It took me a while to figure out what soundclips to use. All 4 demonstrate a unique aspect of her music: Nasty, Rhythm Nation and All for You demonstrate the evolution of her sound, from new jack swing to a more mainstream R&B/Pop style with varying elements of other genres; Nasty is also an example of how she uses her music as an autobiography. Black Cat is a requirement as it is the only song she has sole writing credit and its also the only unadulterated rock music production of her career. I've also updated the image with the source that is listed.
        • This sounds reasonable to me, but, again, I think people with more knowledge should weigh in on this issue. It should be considered by someone who listens to something other than classical! :) Awadewit (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments by Realist2

    • I think the superbowl thing suffers with slight undue weight. Most people outside the US shake their head in confusion at all the fuss, it panders to US viewpoint as a major incident, instead of an international, no big deal, viewpoint. Almost as much time is dedicated to it as the child sexual abuse accusation of 1993 against MJ over at Michael Jackson. Those allegations were significantly a much bigger deal than some tit falling out of a bra. Just saying it how it is. It needs a trim. — Realist2 22:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Considering how large the section was originally, I think its fine. I would oppose trimming. It as concise as possible. Its two paragraphs, which is less than half the size of the amount of text covering each of her albums. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 23:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • It has two paragraphs your right, but its also mentioned in all the three paragraphs after that. Every paragraph of that section mentions the incident, it's just a little over barring to us readers outside the US. — Realist2 23:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • That was the nature of the time period. Considering half of every review of Damita Jo discussed the superbowl, ignoring that fact is not responsible editing. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 23:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I know that feeling too, regarding MJ, I really wish they would review the album instead of jabbering on about the artist. At least she isn't called a "fucking freak" in reviews (direct quote from NME review of Invincible). — Realist2 23:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I think the incident is covered in appropriate depth. I don't know how extensively it was covered throughout the whole world, but I'm in Australia, and the incident was given an undue amount of publicity here. It's discussed concisely and specifically in the first 2 paragraphs of the section. It is also mentioned in the 3 paragraphs after that in the context of reviews that came out shortly after. It's the fault of the reviewers that they didn't have the imagination or the professionalism to review the album solely on its own merits, so it was those reviewers that placed undue weight on the incident, and the article merely reflects that. If it was trimmed from the 3 later paragraphs, it might create an incorrect impression that the albums were reviewed only on their own merits, and that the controversy immediately died. Rossrs (talk) 21:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support:Read through article, corrected some errors, looks good on my end. Overall a very neutral article too. Just as good as Michael Jackson. — Realist2 00:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Reply You misunderstood my comment, I didn't ask to include unencyclopedic prose. What I meant was that I thought the caption would be better off as an introductory sentence, as opposed to "Jackson covers her breast after Timberlake removed the right breastplate of her bustier.", which doesn't set a context to the unfamiliar reader. I think just adding "at the Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show in February 2004" should do the trick. indopug (talk) 15:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Notes: WP:DASH, emdashes are unspaced, and the article uses a mix of unspaced hyphens, endashes and unspaced emdashes (according to Tony1, incorrect hyphens in direct quotes should be changed to whichever dash you're using, unspaced emdash or spaced endash). Inconsistency in numbers, some samples: certified five times platinum, certified 2 times platinum, and later certified the album three-times platinum. Hyphen or not? Spelled out or digits? More samples of incorrect use of WP:DASHes and WP:HYPHENs: were married - a fact they managed to hide not only from the international press but from Jackson's own father."[43] Elizondo filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Jackson, estimated between $10-25 ... date and number ranges are separated by endashes, and the hyphen after were married should be a dash (there are several other similar examples). Please review the citations; page number (p. or not?) is not used consistently and there are many instances of date linking and formatting inconsistency, sample: ^ Janet: Janet Jackson: Review: Rolling Stone, Rolling Stone, 1993-06-24, Retrieved on July 2, 2008 and Browne, David (1993-05-21), janet. Music Review, Entertainment Weekly, Retrieved on July 2, 2008 and janet., Recording Industry Association of America, 1994-04-12, Retrieved on June 7, 2008. What is this source ? It would need a date, for example, and a publisher. Interview with Janet Jackson, Larry King Live. Citation template cleanup needed, sample: Murray, Sonia (2008-02-06), classic_janet_with_a_modern_tw.html Atlanta Music Scene: "Classic Janet --- With A Modern Twist", The Atlanta Journal and Constitution, <http://www.accessatlanta.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/accessatlanta/MusicScene/entries/2008/02/06/ classic_janet_with_a_modern_tw.html>. Retrieved on April 23, 2008. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I've restored the incorrect changes.

    See WP:MOSDATE; solo years are not linked. See WP:DASH and WP:HYPHEN

    hyphen: - used to join words
    endash: – used to join date, number and page ranges
    emdash: — used for punctuation, always unspaced on Wiki.

    You changed all of the correct hyphens in words to endashes, and linked solo years: [14] I restored them to the correct version before your changes. [15]

    Emdashes are not spaced on Wiki; I've corrected those now.[16] That is:

    Jackson's second world tour — the janet. Tour — garnered critical acclaim as Michael Snyder

    becomes:

    Jackson's second world tour—the janet. Tour—garnered critical acclaim as Michael Snyder

    The choices for punctuation on Wiki are spaced endashes ( – ) or unspaced emdashes (—); the article had spaced emdashes ( — ). I haven't yet had a chance to look at the page numbers; this has taken me more than an hour. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Yes, the p. thing is inconsistent with citation. Buggy, but you don't have to fix it if you don't want to. You do have to fix the endashes on page ranges, and when there is more than one page, you have to use "pages" instead of "page". I left some samples. When you're working on citations, you can go by section and put a temporary <references /> at the bottom of the section to check you work by section in preview as you go. I don't think I got everything, so you might go back now and check the citations by section, using that method. (Sorry it took me so long; my cable company went down tonight and I had to go to dialup. Ugh! Way past my bedtime now :-))) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 20:52, 20 April 2008.

    Partners in Crime (Doctor Who)

    I'm nominating this article for featured article because I think it's suitable enough for FA, even though the episode aired only 64 hours ago. There are several episode FAs that are less comprehensive than this (see many Simpsons episode articles, which I find to be a bit lacking.) I've attempted to check for 1a myself and I see nothing overtly wrong with the prose, my skills in checking made better by the "Voyage" nomination. As far as comprehensiveness goes, there's about 350 words on plot, six paragraphs of production, five of reception, which is admittedly quite a lot. The only thing I can think of to make the article larger, given the source material, is the final BARB ratings, which is one statistic that will be released at the end of this week. (but not reason enough to oppose for comprehensiveness) Sceptre (talk) 09:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • BARB ratings have been released, and included. Sceptre (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose – I'd like to see the opening cited as I don't believe a reader should be forced to read the whole article to backup a claim. I'm also still unconvinced that the present image cannot be described with text, and further it should be placed in the location that it is providing critical commentary for rather than the top of the article.
    • There are also some other smaller issues that requite resolving before I can consider supporting this FAC. Firstly, the production code in the infobox looks false to me - it requires a source. Secondly, I've been able to identify at least one MoS issue (the quotation marks in the opening should not be bolded).
    • Lastly, and more importantly, there's an egregious violation of WP:NPOV in the external links. "The Tardis Index File" is given more presence than the other two ELs. Matthew (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      You know full well all that the image and EL thing are inactionable. And WP:LEAD discourages citations in the lead section, because the lead section is supposed to be summary. Sceptre (talk) 11:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      No I don't.
      Having just looked at WP:LEAD, I'm curious, which part discourages citing content? "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited. Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material.", none of that says to me "WP:LEAD discourages citations in the lead section". Matthew (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Drop the stick, and back away from the horse. Regarding the EL thing, Template:FreeContentMeta was kept at TFD two months ago. You seem to be carrying on this vendetta from nine months ago when the template didn't get deleted. And seriously, if people who are well known for being critical at any fair use (ie FutPerf) say "okay, it's fine", there's a hint that maybe you're on the wrong side.
      Regarding citations, there is really no right answer. It's editor preference whether to cite leads or not, and should not be basis for a FAC oppose. It'd be like opposing for the use of American English on, say, Hydrogen. Sceptre (talk) 11:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm oblivious to the horse and stick you speak of. Regarding the DW box, that's irrelevant; it's still a violation of WP:NPOV, and a TfD result does not "unviolate" it. I remember a short while ago the lead-in was cited, and I still wouldn't accept "editor preference" as an excuse not to cite it. Matthew (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      You're in the minority regarding the box. I'm saying this as someone who wanted it deleted in the first TFD. Four days ago, the lead was cited because a) it's easily challengable, and b) the lead wasn't summary yet (as it was a stub). Sceptre (talk) 13:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not convinced that I'm in a minority (a large percentage of Wikipedians would need to be quizzed to convince me). Even so, Wikipedia does not work on majorities and it still violates a policy. As the article violates this policy I'm unable to support this FAC.
      Why is it any less challengeable now? Apart from the episode airing I don't think any thing has changed. Matthew (talk) 13:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Although it's not badly written, the prose could do with a massage. Glitches like these were easy to find:
      • "Catherine Tate was offered to return to the role of Donna Noble"
      • "but died before his scenes for the remainder of the season had been completed"—"were", don't you think?
      • "Based on", fine, so why the undesirable "focused UPon"?
      • "searching regretting declining" in quick succession.

    Do ask someone unfamiliar with the text to run through it carefully. TONY (talk) 12:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I gave it a minor comb, particularly to sort out WP:PUNC in the reception section. Where are your last two objections? Alientraveller (talk) 12:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Probably the Plot section. Sceptre (talk) 13:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: Considering you have produced this in just a couple of days, it does look great, but:
    • I found a few rather jarring sentences, such as: "The episode was filmed in October 2007.[8] It was in the fourth episode filmed of the series, in the fourth production block in the season; this allowed the producers to use props to "seed" later episodes.[5]"
    • And also I would take issue with the sentence: "Together, they attempt to stop alien businesswoman Miss Foster (Sarah Lancashire) from killing thousands of people in London during the birth of the Adipose, short white aliens made from body fat." I was watching Dr Who Confidential last night and I got the impression Miss Foster was not out to kill anyone, just exploit the fat they had. The only reason the first woman died was that Catherine Tate accidentally accelerated the process by stealing a necklace and turning it while in the woman's house.--seahamlass 13:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Personally, I wasn't a fan of the wording of that sentence, and I had a rewrite planned for when I got home (it's hard to edit using IE because I use Modern). With the plot thing, you're right, but at the same time, it's deliberately debatable. Less forceful wording. Sceptre (talk) 14:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    All other links checked out fine with the link checker tool Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The Guardian is still a reliable source, even if it's termed itself a "blog" to sound hip. And Outpost Gallifrey is a reliable news aggregate. Alientraveller (talk) 15:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec with Alientraveller) Easy enough, fixed.
      Yes, but I'd be inclined to say it's reliable as it's part of The Guardian's website.
      I might've said this exact quote before, but the Outpost Gallifrey article is interesting reading. Among other things, it's used as an example of a good fansite in general, the BBC have vouched for it, writers have applauded it. I've seen two of the reviewers cited in the article (Mzimba and Matthewson) post on the forums. As far as their editing and fact checking goes, they're mostly aggregates. They do a lot of fact-checking, and their news page and canon keeper guide has a team of several people (at least a dozen) there for accuracy. Personally, I only (conciously) cite OG for the ratings (as they format it better than BARB) or if I can't get access to a copy of the source material or fill out the citation templates (see Ariel cites, I'm nowhere near the White City) Sceptre (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    My reading was it was a blog hosted on the Guardian site, i.e. a Guardian or Guardian employee blog. I hate this current trend by newspapers to blur the lines, you know? As for OG, I think you've convinced me. I'm glad you set it out though, so I can refer to this later if someone questions it. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have a couple of prose issues (which I might just sort out myself later if I have the time, rather than listing here), but I do have a question with regard to the Outpost. I'm happy with it as reliable source; as you say, it's largely an aggregate (heck, I even cited it myself when I cobbled the AI article together), but where does it get its ratings information (and, for that matter, the AI figures)? It seems to me to not just be pulled together from other news sources, and often seems to be the first on the scene, before the information even appears on the BBC site. I don't really have much of an issue with it (I assume it's straight from BARB), but I'd just like that clarification. Steve T • C 17:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I actually don't know myself. They probably get them from the Beeb or BARB. As an aside, Keith Topping is a member of the OG forums and wrote an unofficial guide about ratings that he posts in every thread. The two might be (and probably are) related. Sceptre (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • OK, I've got to question the use of BBC employee Lizo Mzimba in the critical reception section. The reviewer has a clear conflict of interest with his reviews for the CBBC Newsround website, even if he did genuinely like every episode. From the dozen or so I've checked at random in this list, I haven't come across even one which is truly critical. About the closest was the 3.5 stars for "The Lazarus Experiment". I should also point out that, while likely true, the statement that the episode received "generally positive" reviews is uncited and is based upon editor interpretation. I wouldn't normally complain about that, and feel a tool for doing it, but I've seen similar statements in film articles challenged in the past. Steve T • C 22:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Mzimba's given what's equivalent to a "2" to Fear Her. His normal rating is 3 (taking into account the old, unrated reviews), I think. Sceptre (talk) 22:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm still unsure. The text of the "Fear Her" review is hardly scathing, seemingly going out of its way to find the good in the episode. And I don't think there's been one since then (even reviews of the episodes widely considered to be poor) which has been truly critical. Still, in the morning I'll read Mzimba's reviews of every episode so far to get a better appreciation of his style, see if that makes me feel any better about it. All the best, Steve T • C 23:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Newsround is for kids. Sceptre (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Yeah, I know that. :) I also like that a kids' reviewer is used in the article for a show partially/mostly aimed at them. I was using "style" as an all-encompassing term for the different aspects of the content of Mzimba's reviews. Essentially, what I mean is that once he's "known" to me, I'll better be able to determine his reliability as a source in the criticism section. Steve T • C 23:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      To clarify on this, my concern arises over the fact that Lizo Mzimba is a BBC employee, reviewing a BBC programme, for a BBC publication. And here's my main objection: can you honestly say to me that you think that were Mzimba to genuinely hate a bunch of episodes, he'd be allowed to say so? Remember, this is the BBC which routinely, blatantly features on its adult-targeted news programmes advertisements for stories about Who and other BBC shows in the guise of serious news reportage. Add to that the toothless nature of the criticism thus far from Mzimba and I have a serious problem with the use of his review, especially with it cited so prominently. Steve T • C 09:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Eh, I don't order reviews except for "big POV, small POV". Otherwise, it's the order I click on them in Google News and/or the OG review thread. Sceptre (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      By "prominently", I meant partly its placement, but also with how much was culled from it. But no matter, you've removed it now. Ta, Steve T • C 19:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Still looking into that above, but in the meantime, the lead could do with updating to be a more accurate reflection of the content of the article, most especially with regard to the Broadcast and reception section. Steve T • C 09:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Done. Sceptre (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Struck. Steve T • C 19:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lead Comments Quotations should always be cited. Please take care to avoid excessive repetition; all in a row: "The episode's alien creatures...The episode is stylistically different...the episode is based on moral ambiguity...The episode features the return of..." What exactly does this "based on moral ambiguity" mean? BuddingJournalist 18:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I was trying to find a wording that doesn't make the character Miss Foster out to be a villain: there's a two page spread in this month's DWM which has several quotes from Sarah Lancashire (one of which is in the article) to the effect that she's Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral (which is a rarity if not non-existant in Doctor Who: since 2005, I can only think of three antagonists that weren't Evil (1 Chaotic Neutral, 2 True Neutral). Sceptre (talk) 19:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Your change ("has no clear antagonist") is clearer to me. BuddingJournalist 19:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support All my suggestions are fairly trivial, otherwise it's a great article.
      • in the hope she would find him - "in the hope that"?
      • small white aliens which vs. an alien who - aliens can't be whiches and whos.
      • Tate's return was controversial to Doctor Who fans - "controversial amongst" might be better.
      • It's very, very picky but the infobox refers to a Russell T. Davies, while Casting refers to a Russell T Davies - does the actual episode credit him with a full stop?
      • The scene where Donna and the Doctor investigate Adipose was a "nightmare to film" - who's being quoted?
      • the singular fang each Adipose possessed - maybe a different word as it's a little weird to "possess" a fang.
    • Hope that was useful and again sorry I couldn't help with any in-universe issues. —97198 talk 13:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • "That" would be a redundant word in the article, but I've got no opinion for or against.
        • I think Doctor Who makes the point that the aliens are more human than some humans themselves... the lead character is alien, so the use of "which/who" to "that" would be controversial without thinking about the already existent linguistic dispute. Personally, I'd extend "which" to sapient beings (Fostercertainly is), and "that" to non-sapient (Adipose may be). Sceptre (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • That reply leaves me a little baffled but basically I was saying that the aliens shouldn't be referred to as "which" and "who", they should just use one pronoun - either one. I think maybe you thought I was implying that "that" should be used instead of both. —97198 talk 06:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks. Was looking for that word.
        • Reworded.
        • Changed to "have". Sceptre (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • From what I can see, any remaining prose issues are minor can be sorted as this review progresses, so I've just one more issue to broach, and it's going to piss you off, because it's an issue I've been meaning to bring up at FACs for other television episodes, and you've drawn the short straw. It concerns the breadth of coverage of the critical reception section. This seems lengthy enough, and features opinion from a range of viewpoints, but, and I don't mean this to sound quite so harsh, it's tad superficial. By that, I mean it tends to focus more on the superlatives (or otherwise) thrown at the episode by each critic, rather than any deeper analysis. Now, I now this is a borderline kids' show, and the episode is never going to be subject to the kinds of academic papers and analysis I've seen for shows such as The Sopranos; that's certainly not what I'm asking for. But many of the critics which are already cited in the section do go a little deeper in their scrutiny than just saying what they liked or didn't. Most especially, as well as merely saying whether Tate was good or not, several make room for at least a few words on the dynamic between the Doctor and Donna, what this might represent for the show in general, and what changes it might have on the Doctor's character (and to be fair, you already touch on this a little, especially from the perspective of Davies in the Writing section). Other examples include something taken from the first cited review to produce the line that the reviewer "liked the mixture of emotions." It might be better to examine more closely what he actually says about this:

      For all the whizzy special effects, it's an intensely human show which manages to find space for big emotions. Davies doesn't stint on the major chords, but he always ensures a sprinkling of minor ones to lend it texture. So, along with the grand climactic moments and the sheer relish Dr Who takes in time-travel, you also find more subtle things like sadness and regret creeping in round the edges.

      While you might feel something like this would be better placed in the main Who article, or elsewhere, the fact that the reviewer felt the episode adhered closely to these familiar beats of New Who means it's worth lingering on just a little in the article. Now, I wouldn't necessarily like to see these sorts of things included in the same paragraphs as the "superficial" superlatives; if there's enough information, it may even warrant its own subsection, with a dryer tone and fewer direct quotes. But I'll leave that up to you. Again, I'm sorry you've got the brunt of this borderline rant on the subject, and feel free to tell me to bugger off. :) All the best, Steve T • C 08:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not annoyed at all. I actually try to include a quote or two from the reviewer, and this case can be shown mostly with Billen's review, with the behind-the-sofa quote. Sceptre (talk) 11:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Someone's gone through and sorted the dash issues and non-breaking space issues, so I haven't a lot to complain about now. :) I'd be happy to see this as a Featured Article. It's more comprehensive than a lot of TV episode articles, especially the last one I reviewed for FAC (which was promoted regardless). Nice work. Steve T • C 08:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I'm going to go through and give a copy edit, but it looks fine in terms of sources. I'll switch to support when I'm finished. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is "a minor comb" enough to attain a professional standard of writing? I suppose it's OK, but why did I find things like:
    • Comments Generally support, just a few things that could be cleaned up
      • 2nd para of "Writing": "She provides a change in the lead companion's attitude to the Doctor;" this sentence seems a little weird, in that it's not the character, but the writing or characterization of Donna that provides the change. (out-of vs in-universe).
      • In the 3rd para of "Broadcast and ratings", is it necessary to go into details of Grand National and Causality ? It seems like these are added to justify a POV-ish point that Who was the top-watched show that evening.
      • Two points in the reception refer to key scenes in the plot that I believe were in the article before but appropriately trimmed (the two points being Foster's mid-air drop, and the Doctor/Donna window miming bit). It may be worthwhile either to expand on them here (not the best option), or to find a way to just expand the plot a bit more to make these points clearer as to provide the foundation for these statements. (better method)
      • As Freema did not appear in this episode, is it appropriate to include her name as the other cast members in the plot? --MASEM 15:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done most. Removed the Casualty bit, but not the Grand National bit. With the reception bit, the plot section says the Adipose kill Foster. Added something about it being their first meeting, though. Sceptre (talk) 15:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - but as mentioned above, I would prefer the end of the plot section to be sourced. D.M.N. (talk) 12:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I liked the pace and flow of the article. There are no major problems with the prose but I would have prefered to see "family uses" rather than "family use". Getting an article about such a recent episode of Dr Who to this standard in such a short time is quite an achievement. GrahamColmTalk 18:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 20:54, 28 June 2008 [17].

    Year Zero (album)

    previous FAC
    previous FAC (00:57, 28 April 2008)

    Third time's the charm? Since failing back-to-back FACs, I brought the article to Peer Review and it has since been tweaked here and there since. As far as I can tell, I have addressed all concerns from both previous FACs and the Peer review. So, I welcome any further comments and suggestions. Thanks! Drewcifer (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Took it out: it was a duplicate citation anyways, so it wasn't really necessary.
    Still in the article at current ref 33 Jason Gregory and current ref 35 Jason Gregory
    Wow, can't believe I missed that. Rearranged/redid the citations again: no more gigwise. Drewcifer (talk) 04:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Found and added an archived version.
    • It's from Robert Christgau, a much-discussed rock critic. It has not publisher because it's the same as the author (Robert Christgau).
    • Need to watch the all capitals in the references, they probably shouldn't be capitalized.
    • I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean in the titles?
    Yes, I did but it looks like you got it. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your help as always. Drewcifer (talk) 19:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment
      • Reznor also speculated that he would release the next Nine Inch Nails album online in a similar fashion to The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of NiggyTardust!, which he produced - this should explain what that fashion is
      • I realize it could veer into OR if there's no sources clarifying it, but I'd like more of an explanation of what makes this a concept album. The spots where the term "concept album" is used only refer to the lyrics criticizing the US government as a recurring theme (which, though it may be a theme technically speaking, is not itself the kind of thing the term "concept album" is commonly used for). But if I had to guess based on the rest of the article, I'd think the "theme" would be the dystopian futurism. So... I'm not sure what exactly my point is, but there you go...
    • Tuf-Kat (talk) 14:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • In the lead, "Year Zero... Year Zero" → "Year Zero... It"?
    • Rearranged a little bit, but some of the sentences didn't really benefit from swapped Year Zero with it, for one reason or another. Hopefully it's a little more readable now though.
    • For the first three paragraphs, "Year Zero... The album... The album" → "Year Zero... The album... Year Zero"? Lots of "The album... The album" going on, at least in the lead.

    Gary King (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment: As i said in the previous FAC, if the Performance tour is merged with the Promotion and release section, the flow would be a lot better and you can avoid redundancy by not having to mention the USBs twice. You can get a bigger album cover too (300 x 300)indopug (talk) 16:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Fixed both! Drewcifer (talk) 04:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment: I can't really support or oppose this as it stands now, though I would lean towards oppose. I see the prose and sourcing as a major weaknesses.

    • A number of the paragraphs throughout are stubby and could use fleshing out. (For example, the "Artwork" section.) Also, as another editor pointed out, there are few cases (especially in the lead) where there are repeated phrases and terms.
    • I combined the two short paragraphs in the Artwork section. As for the reptition in the lead, I think I addressed the concerns mentioned above, but if you have any more specific concerns, please let me know.
    • I'm also somewhat concerned about your sources' inherent neutrality (WP:NPOV). 23 of 78 (30%) references in the article are to Reznor, Nine Inch Nails, or an affiliated site. That percentage is worse when you exclude the references only used for chart positions and in the reviews section. You also allow Reznor to be the only speaker used for a good portion of the article. While I agree that those are fine sources, to have so much of the research devoted to them could be problematic. In the "Disputes" section, Reznor's point of view is given exclusively (saying that the music label didn't comment), but surely there were some secondary sources which gave a criticized him or at least provide an alternate perspective? Your passion for NIN comes out in the work, but possibly to the detriment of a neutral point of view.
    • Good points. I've done a bit of work to hopefully address this issue. As it now stands only 8 sources are directly from NIN/Reznor (out of 79 total, which makes it 6.32%). If you're looking at individual in-line citations, then there's 11 from NIN (out of an even 100, which makes it 11%). As far as "Affiliated" sites, the only "Affiliated" sources are UMG (Citation #39) and Internet Archive (#32). I presume you were referring to TheNINHotline, which isn't connected to NIN at all: they're an independent news-site which just happens to focus exclusively on NIN. They've been mentioned as sources of information in numerous other 3rd party reports, so are therefore for considered "reliable".
    • Just did a bunch more work on the pov stuff. The new count is 77 sources, only 6 of which are from NIN. (4.62% for those counting) In-line citation wise, there are 9 in-lines from NIN out of 103 (9.27%). And most of those are direct quotes or super specific facts (like the exact day it was finished being mixed). Does that seem a little more reasonable? Drewcifer (talk) 04:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not completely sure what you meant here. Who's "them"?

    That's a start anyway, I'll take another look at it later. JRP (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Resolved or close enough to resolved comments from Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments
    • I agree with above comments about the neutrality issues with the sources.
    • Please see me comments since (above).
    • This source still (I've seen it in other FACs) concerns me as being non-reliable.
    • Update on the Blabbermouth thing: I just ran across the Strapping Young Lad FAC (which you seem to have participated in already, so I suppose this is old news to you). Bardin did a pretty good job of defending the site, certainly a better job then I could, so please see his arguments. Drewcifer (talk) 06:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no idea what you mean here. Where should an nbsp be where there isn't currently one?
    • In May 2007, Reznor made a post on the official Nine Inch Nails website condemning Universal Music Group — the parent company of the band's record label, Interscope Records — for their pricing and distribution plans for Year Zero. Per MoS, em dashes should not be spaced.
    • Please be consistent with keeping the period either inside or outside the quotation marks. I see several inconsistencies.
    • Ugh, the logical quotation punctuation. The bane of my existence. If there's one WP policy I dispise more then anything, it's that one. But it's fixed anyways!=) All the periods should now come after the end quotation mark. Drewcifer (talk) 23:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The final paragraph of the Music section needs a reference.
    • Prose could use some brushing up. Try getting a new copyeditor.

    Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Again, should halo numbers (in lead) have italics?
    • Sigh, well I feel silly. Fixed.
    • "while touring for With Teeth." - context. What's With Teeth?
    • Fixed.
    • Wouldn't [18] be a derivative of a copyrighted work?
    • Actually, it's derivative of a trademarked work, not a copyrighted one. Good catch, though. I've updated the image page to reflect this.
    • Yea. Basically, you can't copyright stuff that's basic geometry/text. Hence why a photo like this is also trademarked (just a random example I found from this category). I learned this just recently myself, which is why the NIN image's page didn't reflect that yet. Drewcifer (talk) 08:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "— the parent company of the band's record label, Interscope Records —" - spaced em dashes. Oh noes! (WP:DASH)
    • Huh, I thought it was the other way around. Fixed.
    • Reception section is really short...

    giggy (:O) 04:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks so much for your help and support. Drewcifer (talk) 08:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments Some issues I've run into while copyediting the article:

    • There's nothing about chart positions, sales, or even the proper release of the album in the Release section.
    • It's now in the renamed "Reception" section.
    • That quote by Reznor in the lead is unnecessary. Might be worth working into the article body.
    • Moved it.
    • The article mentions where the album ranked on Rolling Stone's year-end list, but the magazine's review of the record is not used in the prose.
    • Made a mention of the review in the Reception section.
    • Reznor is a huge gearhead who likes experimenting. Seems like there'd be more sources available about the recording process. Can more information be included in the Recording section? WesleyDodds (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the relative lack of tons of information is due to the fact that the vast majority of the album was made by one person on a laptop, thus limiting people to say stuff about it, and, I guess, stuff to say in the first place other then "I made it on a laptop". Nonetheless I added a little bit more to it, but seriously I think I'm at my rope's end with that stuff. Drewcifer (talk) 05:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead says "Disputes arose between Reznor and Universal Music Group, parent company of Interscope Records, over the overseas pricing of the album, ultimately resulting in the severing of ties between the two parties", but this is not apparent in the article body, which doesn't link the disputes over pricing with Reznor's leaving the label. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, I don't think it's as straightforward as you're making it. Reznor never said "YZ is too expensive in Australia, therefore I'm leaving." That was obviously part of it, but he never made a specific connection between the two. So, I reworded both to better reflect that. Drewcifer (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Minor comments
    • Any reason why Reznor is buried in the middle of the Personnel section?
    • Because it's in alphabetical order. I could go with who's most important, and so Reznor would obviously be first, but after that it gets a little fuzzy. I think the most NPOV way to do it is alphabetically. But I wouldn't be completely opposed to doing everyone alphabetical except Reznor. Drewcifer (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • is "also known as Halo 24" correct? Its a catalog number isn't it (its in the infobox next to Interscope too)?
    • Yea, it's not exactly a catalog number, not exactly a AKA. I guess it's a catalog number in relation to NIN, but not Interscope, since the Halo number thing extends past the Interscope years. So I think I'm ok with the way it is now (treats it as if it's catalog number in the infobox, and as an AKA in the lead). I think it straddles the gap alright. But if you have some suggestions I've open to them. Drewcifer (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can we list the United World Chart after its deletion?
    • I'd say it's alright, since not every chart in the world has an article, but it's usually still worth mentioning in an article like this. For example, you could say the same thing about "Swiss Albums Charts", since it doesn't have an article either. But then again, I don't know the circumstances of the UWC's article deletion. Drewcifer (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "He further wrote that when he finishes a new album" confusing wording here; where did he write? He wasn't writing before, so why the "further"?
    • I mentioned the second half because of all the songs that have the outro thing, the Great Destroyer one is the longest and takes up the biggest percentage of it's song (50%). Does that make sense? Drewcifer (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support I've been doing some off-and-on copy-editing, mainly removing redundancies, and I've seen that Wes has done a thorough one too. This article has improved vastly since the last time, and is quite good now. indopug (talk) 11:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    All of your edits have been rock-solid. Thanks a bunch for your help and your support. Drewcifer (talk) 16:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Question Was the performance that featured the fake SWAT team part of the Performance 2007 tour, or was is a separate event? WesleyDodds (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Technically speaking I suppose it wasn't a part of the tour itself, but the alternate reality game, but the fake SWAT-team performance occurred pretty much concurrently to both, so I guess it's in a bit of a gray area. Drewcifer (talk) 00:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Cite 22 mentions the "resistance meeting", but it doesn't mention the concert. Can we get a reference describing the impromptu concert? WesleyDodds (talk) 08:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Good catch. Should be fixed now. Drewcifer (talk) 18:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Leaning towards support I don't really listen to anything but classical music, but this article gave me a good idea of what this album was about and the kinds of music are on it. However, I think a few places need a bit more detail:

    • Reznor drew inspiration from his concern at the state of affairs in the United States and at what he envisioned as the country's political, spiritual, and social direction. - What was that state of affairs and what direction did he want the country to go in?
    • Actully, if you are only going to include this information once, I would include it in the "Themes" section, which is supposed to explain in the detail the content of the album. Awadewit (talk) 13:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It criticizes the American government's policies, and that the album "could be about the end of the world". - Again, what policies?
    • Reznor displayed displeasure at the extra $10 added to the CD's price in Australia for the thermo-coating, saying it only cost an extra 83¢ per CD and that he incurred the additional cost - A little confusing - what does "he incurred the additional cost" mean here?
    Reworded a little bit. Hopefully that's clearer. Drewcifer (talk) 21:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was wondering if more shouldn't be included about the game, but I noticed that the game article itself is very patchy. Has not much been published on the game?
    A fair amount has been published about the game, and I could definitely expand upon it, but my intention was to avoid getting into too many details and focus on parts of the game that relate back directly to the album and the promotion of it. I would also argue that too much detail about the game is going to loose the lay-reader, since it all gets a little crazy. Drewcifer (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was wondering if there should be a separate subsection on the game and a bit more on what the game actually is. The promotional description is excellent, but I was left not quite knowing what the game was, if you see what I mean. Awadewit (talk) 13:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, pretty much the entire Promotional section talks only about the game, so I'm hesitant to expand it much more. However, you're probably right that the article doesn't give enough of an explanation of the game for the lay-person. So, I added a bit of a quick-summary to hopeffuly clear up any confusion that might arise. What do you think? Drewcifer (talk) 16:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    This is wonderful! I have a much better idea of the politics in the game and album because of this, by the way. Awadewit (talk) 14:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image:USBM warning.jpg - I'm also not totally sure that this image is necessary, since it is described in the text and is itself almost entirely text. (The rest of the image licenses seem ok to me.)
    I think it works, but if you're totally against it suppose I could take it out and the article wouldn't be terribly ruined. Drewcifer (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm just wondering if it meets the high fair use standards we have, since it is basically just a copy of text. Is that really necessary? Awadewit (talk) 13:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I took it out. Drewcifer (talk) 16:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe you can just reprint the information in one of those quote boxes. indopug (talk) 20:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's fine without. It's explained pretty clearly in the prose anyways. Drewcifer (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I have not checked any of the sources - I will leave that to others more versed in this area than myself. This was interesting article to read - I surprised myself by thinking "maybe I should go download some of these songs"! Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 16:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support, comprehensiveness concerns have been reasonably addressed; no sources could be found for the LP. --Laser brain (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Oppose, 1b (comprehensiveness). The article is well-written, but it is missing information from a lot of articles containing analysis and criticism of the album. No mention of all album formats, either, which is a big miss for a featured article candidate. Some minor items below, but further research is needed to make this comprehensive. I will post some examples on FAC talk page.[reply]
    Issues resolved. --Laser brain (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • The fact that the article doesn't incorporate every possible source out there isn't necessarily a bad thing right? I'm sure every FA has some additional sources that aren't used simply because they repeat stuff that's already been cited. That said, I'll run down to the library and take a look at those magazines to see if I can find something new. Just out of curiosity, how'd you find those? Drewcifer (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, not necessarily a bad thing. But, whenever I see a shorter article it's a red flag for me that all sources might not have been used. I hit a relevant database (I used Academic Search Premier for this) and scan the list of results. If I see more than a handful of substantive articles that were not used, I raise a comprehensiveness concern. --Laser brain (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I can see how that would be a good measuring stick of an article's comprehensiveness, but looking at the sources you mentioned on the talk page, the only thing of major importance that I've been able to glean is more critical reception stuff. (Actually, one article had first-week sales, which a small but nice fact to include, so that's I guess that's not completely true). So, in other words, using those sources is only resulting in an expansion of an already decent-sized section (IMHO). There's always more critical opinion one can add to an album article, but that doesn't mean it should (be added). You could say the section has reached .... critical mass. Drewcifer (talk) 08:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Fair enough. If you say you have reviewed additional sources and didn't find anything else worth mentioning, I will strike my 1b concern. Please see my note below though.. I would like to have information about the LP. --Laser brain (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "The album produced two singles, "Survivalism" and "Capital G", the latter of which released as a promotional single." Suggest "the latter released"
      • "In a 2005 interview with Kerrang!, Trent Reznor expressed his intentions to write material for a new release while on tour to promote the group's fifth album ..." Double-meaning as written.
      • Attention needed to quotation punctuation per MOS.
        • What exactly needs to be fixed? All instances of logical quotation punctuation (punctuation after end quotation mark) seem to be fixed. Is there something obvious I'm missing? Drewcifer (talk) 08:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Grrr. I'm getting mixed messages here. I agree 100% with you, and this has been a point of contention in a few FACs I've nominated. Unfortunately most reviewers seems to insist that every period should come after the quotation regardless of where the period comes in the quote itself, so I've changed all of them to satisfy another reviewer (I forget who). Is there an MOS on this I can refer to so that I can stop redoing the same stuff over and over again? Drewcifer (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Sure, see WP:PUNC: "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation; this system is referred to as logical quotation." If someone told you otherwise, they are wrong. --Laser brain (talk) 20:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • If a quote is a complete sentence, the period should be inside the closing quote. An example is the first quote in the Recording section. --Laser brain (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Toward" is preferred over "towards" in American English.
      • Why no mention of the LP? --Laser brain (talk) 04:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see what there is to say about album formats, so that's a non-issue for this article. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, there is no need to mention all the album formats unless critically discussed (like it is in, say, In Rainbows). Writing "The album was released in CD, LP, digital download formats and was available in a special edition exclusively from Amazon. It was released in US, UK, Australia, and in Japan (with an additional track)" is just boring; we aren't repository of indiscriminate release information. indopug (talk) 11:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well in this case, the LP had special qualities like the CD did. The LP had special artwork and extras that even the CD didn't have. So it's information about the album that in my mind is required for a comprehensive article. --Laser brain (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    In all my research, I haven't come across any mention of special stuff for the LP. Where did you find that info? I guess I can include it if it comes from a reliable source. Drewcifer (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I don't have a source. I happen to own the LP. I'll help look for a source; if I can't find one detailing the LP features, I'll strike this item. --Laser brain (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Any update on this? The LP is quite interesting as one of the sides has etching in it and other features - should be mentioned here. --Laser brain (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    So far only a few minor leads. A quick google search of "Year Zero+LP" brings up plenty of hits, but none all that reliable. Best I found was this. I also scaned through all of the sources I've used so far and did a search for the words "LP" "Vinyl" and "gatefold" on all of them. Nothing. Last, I skimmed through the nin hotline archives, and I did find this, which seems like the best lead, but nothing 100% yet. Drewcifer (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks a million for your help. I'll keep looking for a source about the LP. Drewcifer (talk) 18:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support — Article and sources look great. Good job. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]
      Thanks so much for the support and the kind words! Drewcifer (talk) 04:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. I feel like some of the "Related Works" section may be irrelevant, especially the television/film information. I'm not sure how it really pertains to the album. Otherwise I'm pleased with the way the article has shaped up since the last two FACs. NSR77 TC 07:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks for the kind words. As for the related projects section, I think it's a pretty low-impact section, so I think it's cool as it is. Besides has a television show or feature film ever been created around a concept album? I think that's pretty notable stuff, even if nothing comes of it. Drewcifer (talk) 07:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pierce Brosnan

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:34, 18 April 2008.

    History of Norwich City F.C.

    Self-nomination. After another excellent collaboration with The Rambling Man and following a usefully gruelling Peer Review, I present this history article for consideration. Hopefully, this is another step on the way to a Featured Topic on Norwich City F.C..

    As mentioned at the PR, balancing the article in terms of recentism was difficult, as the club's historic achievements are imbalanced - I refer anyone interested to the debate at the PR, as well as the chart at the head of the article which gives some indication of this imbalance. Dweller (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments by Ealdgyth
    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 16:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    All the links check out with the link checker tool. Sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm leaving these last two up, since I'm not sure who BSkyB is (and a quick glance around their site didn't help much) I think they are probably reliable, but better to leave them up for others to judge for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, for your interest and delectation, BSkyB are the biggest supplier of satellite television to the UK. They supply at least 2 million homes with TV channels and run sports channels Europe-wide as part of Rupert Murdoch's empire. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, I'm a Yank. I'll hide this then, thanks for enlightening me! Ealdgyth - Talk 17:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm on the fence about this one http://www.rsssf.com/ It looks like a hobby/self-published site but it does seem to have standards on what they publish.
      • Although past performance is no guide to the future, it's used all throughout the WP:FOOTBALL community. Its content seems as, if not more, reliable than some traditional RS's such as the BBC. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's the number one site for worldwide historical football statistics, bar none. It's considerably more reliable than say the archives of newspapers or television companies, which no-one would bat an eyelid at including. The other benefit of this type of site is that if an error is found, contact them and they will correct it. - fchd (talk) 17:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You've persuaded me, but I'll leave it up for others to judge for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    All done, I believe. Thanks for your time reviewing. --Dweller (talk) 15:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support as per my peer review and subsequent improvements (and the PR has been closed correctly, thanks). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    support Comments - righty-ho then, let's get stuck into it.....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • It is during this period that the club has achieved most of its greatest distinctions - hmmm...not wildly enthusiastic and something a tiny bit more succinct. Also distinctions to me seems a bit vague. I was musing on chopping off the last four words entirely but then not sure how that scans either WRT proper English as she is spoke.... Stuff it, I have tried to rephrase it and can't. Can't really describe all as achievements or successes so leaving as is. Not a deal-breaker..Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    *By April 1905, there is evidence of the use of the nickname Canaries, "This as far as we can tell is the first time that the popular pastime of the day ie ... rearing ... canaries was linked with Norwich City". By February 1907, the term "Canaries" was being used in the national press....ew, I think this bit needs a bit of a massage. Canaries is in italics in one bit and quotes in another, and there is a quotation in the middle. And the section reads choppily. I think the first long sentence can be reworded and the quotey bit eliminated. Maybe try:

    "By April 1905, the team were being referred to in some circles as the Canaries, after the popular pastime of canary rearing. The term had been adopted by the national press by February 1907."

    How does that sound? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Alternately:

    " The popular pastime of canary rearing had given rise to the teams' nickname of the Canaries by April 1905. This had then been adopted by the national press by February 1907."

    Two passives but flows somewhat smoothlier. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    'The Cits are dead but the Canaries are very much alive'. - too nice to de-quote and rewrite, instead can we get who wrote/said/reported it? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Following a Football Association (F.A.) Commission, the club was informed on the last day of 1904 that they had been deemed a professional organisation.[14] The main allegations were... - just sorta jumps into it. I think a sentence or two on amateur/professional issues at the time as a mini-preamble would help explain what the issues were. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Events off the field were to overshadow the team's performances. City "were plunged into a financial crisis which threatened their very existence" -should be easy enough to rewrite without quotation marks. done myself. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    the club's results nosedived - I think "position nosedived" but not results as such..can we reword it somehow? done too.

    *Summary - looks pretty good. Some prose tweaks outlined above and I'd be happy to support. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose Comment When I went through FAC the first and second times, I was told that all references, even websites, needed both publishers and dates for when they were published. At least add the years.--Patrick Ѻ 12:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Invalid, an apparent misunderstanding. Copyright dates (years) aren't needed; publication dates are needed for example on news sources and others where they are specified, and this article already does that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, why is the first sentence its own paragraph?--Patrick Ѻ 12:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It isn't. But I'll merge the first and second paras anyway. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, if that's the policy, then I have no reason to oppose this article. However, I may be confused. Here's the diff where, just last August, SandyGeorgia instructed us to have publication dates when they are available. Given the number without dates, I worry some might indeed be missing this.--Patrick Ѻ 12:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, as far as I'm concerned, wherever a date was available, it was added into the {{Cite web}} template. When it wasn't available, it wasn't added. If you can find specific examples of problems then I'd be more than happy to fix them. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Resolved Issues from Woody
    • 'SupportOppose for now'Comment For the most part, looks good. I have a few queries though.
    • Per Wikipedia:Layout, the further reading section should be below the References.
    • Image:Norwich City Logo.gif has no fair-use rationale for any of it's uses. I don't see how it could be included here under Fair-use as well.
      • Woody, I've added fair use for the NCFC and the history article. I think the canary emblem and crest ties in so intrinsically with the history article that fair use should be okay here. As for the other article which is using it, I doubt it, but that's not relevant here. If you're happy then please strike! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The decision was endorsed at a public meeting in March 1905, a meeting that significantly was attended by Nat Whitaker, secretary of the Southern League, who seconded a motion proposed by a local businessman, that endorsed the club's " ... determination to run a first class professional team."; Whitaker actively supported Norwich, as he wanted the League's influence to spread eastwards.[15] This is a very long sentence, can we split it up please?
    • who defeated them 2–0, over the two legs Could that not be: who defeated them 2–0 over two legs.
    • Don't start a paragraph with "Soon after, Chase..."; Soon after O'Neill's resignation, Chase..." would be better.
    • A team that could hardly win a game suddenly just sounds a bit fancrufty to me. Could we back it up with facts. A team that had lost... games, suddenly won...
    • I am slightly worried about the bias of the sections. We have "First division yo-yo: 1972–1992" weighing in at two paragraphs and 20 years covered, with "New millennium and centenary: 2000–2008" weighing in at 5 paragraphs and eight years covered. I know the Premiership is covered and is a huge part of their history but I can't help feeling that some of the new stuff comes under WP:RECENT and could be trimmed slightly. The yo-yo-ing section could be expanded slightly? Woody (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I looked into all the refs and I chopped out a bit of redundancy in them. I replaced a couple as they didn't back up the statements. In terms of recentism: after reviewing the references and looking into it a bit more, I don't think that the sections could be expanded anymore than they already have been. Whilst I am sure that some of the more recent stuff could be trimmed, I do think that it might detract from the prose. So, I support, meets all the criteria. Woody (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • After reviewing my comments, and after doing some fixes on the article, I think it meets all the criteria. Support Woody (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose—Clearly not up to the 1a mark. Lots of watery patches at the top, such as:

    • "before being admitted" --> "before its admission", since right at the opening and exposed.
    Looks like someone's dealt with this. --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Shortly thereafter,"—yuck. Soon after?
    <blushes> That one has Dweller all over it. Sorted. --Dweller (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In the course of the club's history, Norwich City has survived a number of incidents that threatened its survival, including ousting from amateur football, the need to be re-elected to The Football League and a number of financial crises." Remove the first phrase. "its ousting". "the need to be re-elected" is a bit strange in this list; can it be recast? Is a need an incident? How many financial crises (if it's possible to say—e.g., "at least three"). Comma after "League". Say who Geoffrey Watling was in a short phrase (the linked article is only one sentence); looks funny at the top as a stub-idea, and the lead is shortish anyway.
    All done, except the Oxford comma, eschewed throughout. The sense is clear without it, as no-one would misunderstand the text as re-election to financial crises. I hope my clarification works; the financial crises are clarified in the Watling sentence. That was the original intention. --Dweller (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Remove comma after 1902 and put it after Norwich. The use and non-use of commas needs an audit throughout.
    Looks like someone's dealt with this specific point. --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've reviewed all the uses of Oxford commas and the article is once more consistent, with just one retained where it's necessary for clarity. I believe Casliber checked comma usage more generally. --Dweller (talk) 14:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • THE badge of N C.
    What's that? --Dweller (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC) (I fixed that - pic caption) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Needs a football word-nerd to come in and sift through the entire text. Tony (talk) 14:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for your input. I've responded to you more generally at your talk page. --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support all my points were addressed at Peer Review. The only query I really had at the time, was over possible recentism, but Dweller has more than justified the balance of the article. It's thorough in the history of Norwich City with appropriate images. Good work. Peanut4 (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - accessible enough even to "barbarians who know nothing of the beautiful game" without spoon-feeding the aficionados. Seems comprehensive without giving a blow-by-blow account of every match of every season. Swap the lead image though, for pity's sake. Yomanganitalk 14:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You are surely my favourite barbarian. Thanks for your c-e (and your support). Happy for the lead image to be swapped with the badge, but I'm out of time and off back to wikibreak. --Dweller (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Switched. Hope it removes that last iota of doubt! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 01:10, 15 April 2008.

    Ian Craig

    An article on the youngest person to represent and captain Australia in cricket. Ian Craig was a child prodigy who was compared to Don Bradman, regarded as the greatest batsman of all time. However, Craig fell ill and had to drop out of cricket for a year, and then retired early because of his work commitments. Hopefully, I have pre-empted the jargon problems that were identified in Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ernie Toshack and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Don Tallon, so there should be less gremlins that need to be ironed out. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    All the links check out with the link checker tool. Sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - looks good, but suffers a little from PEACOCK and "hagiographising". A quick glance revealed "media frenzy" and "child prodigy" both of which are unlikely in their strict senses as I cannot imagine the 1950s media behaving in a way that we'd describe today as a "frenzy" and he didn't really achieve anything at all while he was still a "child". Will you take another glance over with this in mind? Drop me a line when you're done and I'll do a review. --Dweller (talk) 11:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Okey. Is teenage better? I do note that while I talked a lot about everyone praising his wonderful potential, I also listed out all of his bad results as well. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]
    I'll take this on below. Striking. --Dweller (talk) 10:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support—I must say that this is a cut above the standard of previous Australian sporting nominations. I haven't content-reviewed it, though.

    • "mid 1950s"—something is missing.
    • "New South Wales"—repeated links? Why? Who cares about it?
    • Lead wouldn't want to be any longer.
    • "Matting wicket"—Can someone at least put a stub-definition at that linked article?
    If you're asking about ownership, Cricinfo is now owned by ESPN. There remains a close relationship with Wisden, who used to own it. --Dweller (talk) 14:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Craig was the youngest player to score a fc double century at the time. Hassan Raza holds that record now, Craig is fourth or fifth, and is still the youngest Australian. The article goes a bit back and forth on the "is/was the youngest player/Australian"; if someone wants to make it uniform, please do. (Have no refs with me at the moment, but shouldn't be too difficult to find it).
    • universally regarded as the greatest batsman of all time Ahem :-)
    • out of a total of 416 runs for the loss of seven wickets (7/416) - why the score in both forms ?
    • He scored 63 of 81 runs in a partnership with Jimmy Burke - Can't have. Burke made 27
    • However, Bradman was not playing first-class cricket at 17 and did not captain Australia until he was 28 - Awkward and possibly unnecessary line.
    • double-century earned the eye of Australian selectors - is "earned the eye" common usage ? I am more familiar with caught the eye
    • scoring 867 first-class runs at a batting average of 54.18 with six domestic half-centuries in addition to his double century. CA says 7 50s; if the 53 in the Test is not considered as "domestic" neither should the 213
    • with a top score of 71  : 71-star
    • His tour started poorly, with food poisoning putting him out of action until after the Second Test He played four matches in May and four in June.
    • Craig came out to bat at 2/55 in the second innings on a sticky wicket I doubt if this is true. FoW wasn't followed exactly as Colin Macdonald retired early in the innings.
    • He battled for 270 minutes in compiling 38 - CA has 259

    That's all for now Tintin 14:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments by Dweller

    Another impressive piece of work by the unpronouncable one. Some comments:

    • Doesn't seem right to include same achievement twice in Lead, as with the three "youngest player" achievements (NB on its repetition, the first of those, the double hundred, implies he's the youngest ever whether Aussie or not. Is that (still) right?)
    Chnaged to "holds the record for" to make it more obvious
    • "the youngest player to tour England" - youngest Aussie? youngest any nationality? Still valid?
    Book was unclear, so I changed to Aus to be sure. Not sure if it still is valid, so "was" keeps us safe. I suspect it is valid. I can't remember any other young players, unless there was a really young guy who sat on the bench for ages (don't think so). Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "he was unable to perform on English surfaces" know what you mean, but cricket newbies will take it literally
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Craig regained his place for the final two Tests of the series and retained" was retained? retained it?
    Pruned anyway. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Too much detail in Lead on a few points but notably on how he came to be appointed captain (and subsequent events in that parag too). Keep the detail for the body text
    Cut off two sentences. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "youngest captain in Test history" - still?
    No, that's why I used "is" in the first sentence for Australian records. For the worldwide cpatains, I said "was". I explicitly note in the main body that he has since been passed. I think it would be unwiedly in the lead with brackets. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Aged just 22 years and 149 days, Craig was the youngest captain in Test history and led a team derided as the worst to have left its shores." - presumably "its" refers to Australia, rather than them being derided as the worst ever touring team to leave any country?
    Fixed. Australian. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "less than twenty" - 20? MOSNUM - please check the whole article.
    • Lead allows 0 words for the life of the man from age of 26 to 72. That's a serious flaw. Allowing for the fact that it was far less notable (!) surely at least a sentence can be spared for it?
    Fixed. duh....Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • infobox: reference height. Is that the usual designation for a middle order batsman? Not seen it before in an infobox
    Some people like Phanto have put specialist opener, so this seems fine. reffed height Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok the height is in teh main body. Adding a ref note to the numerical height calculator breaks the template. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "striking 91 against South Australia in his only innings of the season" 1st class innings I'd guess
    • The story of the 213 is told choppily as a sequence of stats. Can you try to flow it a little?
    Tweaked. hopefully better. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Bradman was not playing first-class cricket at 17 and did not captain Australia until he was 28" the second half is incongruous to this stage of the story - you could introduce it later if you like, but I actually suspect it's anachronistic anyway. I think the contemporary Bradman comparisons were more when he was a rising star, not once he was in the Test side... but not flourishing.
    Yeah, in hindsight mentioned Bradman's FC and Test debut age is more relevant. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wikilink selectors
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "At the age of 17 years and 239 days, he became the youngest ever Australian to play Test cricket." - cite
    Fixed. Moved up from the main body directly next to the statement. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "under heavy public expectations", "Craig seemed a boy among men" all unreferenced/not direct quotes and therefore sound like OR
    Fixed the first one. The second, I changed to was. Technically, he was < 18 and all the others were > 18. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The youngest player ever to be sent to England" as above - presumably Australian
    Changed to Aus, since the book was not all that explicit. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "some media likening it" - subject of "it" is "Craig"
    Fixed to "his arrival". Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Bradman had scored world record of 974 runs" needs fixing
    Fixed. zzz monkey was asleep so it seems... or blind Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Craig failed to adapt to the English pitch conditions and his confidence plummeted." contains two claims, both of which definitely need citing and preferably put as direct quotes IMHO
    Fixed. Teh first one is pretty generic by everyone, so I moved teh cite up from further down the para. The confidence thing ditto, especially with the QE2 comment. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just to say I love the exchange with Her Maj. A witty man, clearly.
    • "Upon his return to Australia, Craig was unable to replicate his feats in the previous summer" multiple problems. There's a grammar glitch and confusion over northern/southern hemispher summers, made worse by the fact that he'd just endured a rotten (English) summer
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "twentieth" 20th - and some context would be good. 20th might not sound bad if you don't know that only five or six specialist batsmen will be selected, and few overseas players (if any) would have been involved, so his team-mates and about 15 rivals for his place would have done better!
    Done. Since we already mentioned First XI earlier in the text, people can understand that 20 > 11 so he won't be 1st choice player based on stats. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do we know why he chose to drop out of cricket for a degree? It's pretty unusual behaviour for a top player. Also, how did he manage to get a degree in just one year, and that on top of doing national service in the same period! (how long was he on nat service - and what did he do?)
    Done. Conscription in Australia says that 140 days are required for military training and then they are in the reserve. So it would have only cost him 140 days and not more than a year. I clarfied that the book says he did a diploma. I don't know what it specifically means but Diplomas in Australia usually take 12-18 months. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "spin twins" is lovely cricket jargon but will mystify newbies who'll wonder why twins have different surnames
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "single-handedly routed the Australians" is hyperbole and POV. If the other 10 hadn't batted and fielded, I doubt he'd have done too well.
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Australia were levelled for 84" never heard that expression before, though it's clear what it means. Is it common Australian usage?
    Changed. Levelled can mean demolished in a literal sense and has been used to mean bowled out for a low score. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "defiant" used twice to describe the same innings
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "he failed to pass 40 on any of his five innings" in any of his...
    Snoozing monkey. fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • wikilink subcontinent
    Fixed. Already did I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The 1956–57 season marked the start of a renewal phase in Australian cricket." says who?
    Errm everyone. I'll get another book. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • wikilink Invincibles
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why are 5 cites needed for a fairly ordinary sentence?
    No one article mentions Johnson and Miller together, so I needed separate pages. Also, the three conseuctive Ashes losses and the 18 month gap between Tests for rebuilding isn't mentioned in one sentence. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The leading contenders" refers not to the team but for the captaincy
    Fixed. Very attentive. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "It was seen as a bold move" - cite
    Fixed. Cited a pile. It's a pretty generic thing, so I'll cite lots and lots of books rather than quotefarming. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Craig was seen as being...." - cite, better yet, quote
    Fixed. Cited a pile. It was pretty generic, so I'll stick more citesBlnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "responsibility" - can the second usage in the same short parag be tweaked?
    Changed to workload. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • ...and can the team manager get a name, poor fellow!
    • "who at the time has only managed" had
    Fixed. Blind monkey again. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "in his first Test as the lead spinner" comma
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "as his team won its first Test with a decisive innings margin" in England we'd normally say "by" (only we're usually talking about losing by a decisive innings margin, lol)
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "his first half-century since his Test debut" better would be "his first Test half-century since his debut" as pedantically the former is incorrect
    Fixed. Very good attention to detail. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • NB have you wikilinked century and half-century on their first occurrences?
    Yes. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Graph is too small to be really useful and would be better in with the stats IMHO
    Fixed. Inflated and moved. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Craig declared that he was not ready for Test cricket" a return to
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "relinquished the Test captaincy to Benaud" I doubt it. I assume he relinquished it and then the selectors chose Benaud
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The events of the season meant that Craig faced an uphill battle to regain his place in the national team." presumably that refers to the events described in the last sentence of prev parag, in which case it's in the wrong place
    I've reworded but I don't think so. The new para is talking about his attempted comeback, so the first sentence explains why the odds are stacked against him. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Australian Second team" lower case s? wikilink second team?
    Linked to Australia A cricket team, which is the modern equivalent I guess. I added a sentence in Aus A about the olden day 2nd XI tours. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • subcontinent wikilinked here, when it should have been earlier instead, as mentioned
    Fixed. I'm sure it was wikilnked the first time and undid it this time. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • 59.16 isn't a steady season - it sounds outstanding. How did it compare with his rivals' averages?
    Used stronger adjective. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "New South Wales had a streak of nine consecutive Shield titles in this period" rofl - nine titles in 2 years! That's good, even for Aussies!
    Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Harvey moved to Sydney due to his employment, and the period saw the emergence of Test batsmen Norm O'Neill, Brian Booth and Bob Simpson, with the latter two later becoming Australian captains." multiple problems. Harvey moving house will be meaningless to most readers without context. Is the list of others to do with Australia or NSW? Sentence also implies Booth and Simpson were contemporaneous captains of their country at the time that Benaud was. The Aussie equivalent of the summer of four captains?
    Tweaked. Pointed out that NN, BB and BS were emerging state players who were on their way upwards towards Tests, and that they threatened Craig's spot in the team. Same for Harvey except he was already in the TEst team. rmvd the Captaincy as it isnt relevant to batsmanship. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Despite this, he captained" last subject is Harvey.
    Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Despite this, he captained New South Wales and Australia in 48 matches, winning 28 and losing only two." despite what? the emergence of NSW players? Why combine NSW and Australia in the one stat?
    Reworded to rm Despite. I left NSW and Australia because this was his total FC captaincy stats. Nvm, reworded to say all FC matches. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • BLP demands careful citation of all the sentences in the "Later years" section. I'm especially concerned about the marriage linked to his cricket failures - please check that's cited accurately
    Fixed. Teagged. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Later years" seems the wrong heading as some info is about his youth
    Fixed. changed to "After cricket" Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Article kind of peters out without a "today, he..." kind of comment
    Fixed. Pointed out that he was the managing director of Boots until he retired from work completely. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • If he didn't bowl in Test cricket, the right hand side of the stats box seems pointless
    True, but I'm trying to keep them uniform across the article. Like the infobox. We don't chop off the bowling half of the infobox when the guy never bowls - we leave spaces. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many of these cricket bios include a style/personality section
    I know. I couldn't find a full bio of Craig, only a short one in the captains book and the profiles book. It seems that his style didn't gain anybody's attention. Wisden COTY and obits normally discuss style a lot, but Craig was never COTY and he hasn't died yet. So I'm a bit thin. I'll continue looking. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]

    Otherwise, good stuff. Sorry to be so pedantic, but you know what a stickler I am! It's a bit of a sad story, isn't it. Seems peculiarly English in a way. --Dweller (talk) 11:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
    • Last line of the lead is rather past tense. I had to recheck he was still alive...
    Tweaked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "involvment" typo.
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Role in infobox needs initial capital S.
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Will selectors (sport) have an article ever? I'd make a stub if you believe it should do.
    • Order citations numerically - there are a couple of [4][3] in there. And a [14][10]
    Fxed. Teh additions changed the auto-ordering....Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "slashed a ball" bit peacock.
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is 173cm really considered "short" these (or moreover in those) days?
    Yeah, at least for non-Asian cricketers. Justin Langer is 179cm and is considered short for a sportsperson. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "1957–58 season" has anomalous linking.
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "had a moderate season" moderately successful?
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't see any blue dots on the graph per the caption.
    Fxed. He was never not out. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Caroll[2][3] is immediately followed by a full stop and [2][3]. The latter is fine, the former should go.
    I don't see what this is referring to. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Minor points, otherwise excellent. Let me know when you've remedied these. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose At this stage, I am focusing on content, but I also think the article needs a ce as it has had a number of alterations since its initial FAC nom, which has caused problems.

    “Youngest ever Aus capt” section:

    The analysis of the way Craig came to the captaincy is not right. He was appointed NSW captain in 56-7 (which isn’t mentioned in the text), while Harvey led Victoria; they were the only contenders for the job. At this time, the Board chose the captain, not the selectors. The Board was comprised of delegates from each state (NSW 3, Vic 3, SA 3, Qld 2, WA 1, Tas 1: total 13) who always voted en bloc. Therefore, NSW and Vic needed another 4 votes from other states to get their man up. NSWCA wouldn’t appoint Craig and then have their delegates support Benaud for capt at Board level. Lindwall was stand-in Qld capt for Ron Archer, who was considered as a potential Aus capt until injury wrecked his career. Besides, Lindwall was considered to be finished and he was a fast bowler, not captaincy material in Aus cricket history. It was a tribute to Lindwall that he was able to modify his style and later to return to Test cricket, some suspect to provide “purity of bowling action” during the controversial 58-9 Ashes series. But the text reads as if he was dropped for good after the SA tour.

    Mentioned the state cpataincy and culled the Lindwall and Benaud thing, which seems pretty suspicious of Perry in mentioning I guess. I removed Benaud as well since it would be the case that Harvey >> Benaud so the average person would think Harvey straightaway anyway. At the time that Lindwall was dropped, it did appear as though he was gone for good - with youngsters like Meckiff and Drennan and Gaunt being called in. Lindwall only came back after Meckiff injured himself. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    So it was a straight choice between Craig and Harvey. Famously, Harvey spoke to the team to pledge his support, which was considered a major factor in the tour successes. In his latest book, Bob Simpson (who was on the tour) has written that Craig wanted to drop himself during the SA series, but was outvoted by Harvey and Peter Burge. Although Craig’s batting figures were poor, he was voted one of five SA cricketers of the year, so to say Australia played with ten men is just nonsense (no, I’m not related to Mike Brearley). Craig was expected to lead Aus in 58-9, but his health let him down, Harvey was disappointing when leading an Aus XI v MCC early in the tour, and thus the legend of Benaud began. Bill O’Reilly (1985): “Benaud was not likely ever to be considered to fill [Ian] Johnson’s place – that fact was public property in 1956.” Bob Simpson wrote of Benaud’s aloofness and unpopularity with other players until his appointment as capt, when he made a remarkable change.

    Dropped the ten men thing, it's nn and we can tell from the raw stats. I don't think it's necessary to mention the theories about why Benaud then skipped over Harvey's head. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Added RSA award. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Craig began his comeback with a Commonwealth XI in South Africa in 59 (not mentioned). He captained NSW whenever Benaud was absent and re-invented himself as an opener (not mentioned). In his last two seasons, he opened with Simpson for NSW and scored 1339 runs at 46.17, hardly the figures of man struggling for a place in the team, besides which he was opening and not in competition with Booth, Harvey and O’Neill. He finished his career with a century in his last first class match for an International XI in India (not mentioned). His teammates commented on his matured style but he took the path of many Aus cricketers of his generation and chose his professional career over playing on (eg. Bob Cowper, Ian McLachlan and Paul Sheahan). Some chose to play for a long time (eg Harvey) at cost to their working lives, hence the WSC schism of 1977.

    Adjusted the thing about middle order, and added new technique against fast bowling and teammaters' praise. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    General points:

    • Craig spent the winter of 1957 in London gaining work experience before travelling straight to SA to meet the team (not mentioned). The team manager suffered a heart attack prior to the tour, not during as written, so Craig assumed managership for the first fortnight of the tour.
    Fxed and mentioned. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Craig made a good start to the tour in two warm-up matches against Rhodesia, scoring a century – confusing.
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • His capt stats are actually played 48, won 27, drawn 18, lost 2, tied 1 [20]
    Fxed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Craig was appointed OAM in 1997, a year after his retirement from the SCG trust.
    • Robinson offers an excellent analysis of Craig’s style and technique in On Top Down Under.
    Added now that I noticed the book. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • youth-oriented regeneration plan, please give good cites for this or delete it as IMO, no such thing existed.
    Made less peacocky by explicitly disccusing age. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead is too long & detailed.
    pruned. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Phanto282 (talk) 06:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I found Robinson yesterday and was still doing it up. What books did this come from? btw, I didn't make up these stats, they were in the books that I used. But some of hte other stuff is in the Robinson book. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I read the article through a few times with my pen in hand as per usual but didn't written down a single thing! An excellent and engaging article. I really liked the pace of the prose, it made reading the pleasure it should be. A well-written, comprehensive contribution to Wikipedia's cricket canon. Well done. GrahamColmTalk 17:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Notes: what is the source for the data in the graph at "Test match performance"? Something is off in the punctuation here:

    • Upon first being appointed in 1968 to replace Stan McCabe, Craig was the youngest trustee of the SCG.[49] ever Craig retired as the managing director of Boots' Australian subsidiaries.[4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed for both. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Contest

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:50, 16 April 2008.

    Tropical Storm Barry (2007)

    Self-nom. I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe this is a great example of a tropical cyclone article on a weak, recent storm. It passed GA, and a few other editors commented how good they thought it was. So, feel free to rip it apart. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    All the links check out with the link checker tool. The spanish language site said it timed out with the tools, but it worked fine with I clicked it (Not that I could read it, but...) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Repetition avoidable? "Heavy surf killed one surfer ..." (Heavy seas?)
    Just a quick note, surfers are in the surf, so yes, the surf/waves killed him, not the sea itself. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "though deep convection continued to organize near the center"—although is preferred in formal text, according to my US dictionary. I'm uncomfortable with an intransitive "organize" here; isn't there a better term you guys use? Even "take root" or "develop"?
    • "50—60 feet (15—18 m)"—No, en dashes for ranges please, not em dashes. See MOS. TONY (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I avoided a trip to the Department of Redundancy Department. I switched it to "although", and I changed the em dash to en dash (thanks, I didn't know that). Regarding "organize", are you opposed to the term in general, or just in the form of "to organize"? The National Hurricane Center regularly uses the word to describe strengthening cyclones, including the phrase "to organize", and it also uses "organization" as in "better organization", as well as "organized" and "disorganized". ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Conditional Support It looks good for the most part, but I do see some very minor issues:
    • In the first sentence, I usually like "which" instead of "that".
    • 2 of the 3 last sentences in the lead start in "The rainfall". See if you can find slightly different wording.
    • Operationally it was not classified until eleven hours later.[3] A comma after "operationally" would make that sentence easier to read.
    • The precursor system dropped heavy rainfall across western Cuba, peaking at 12.0 inches (305 mm) in Sancti Spíritus Province.[3] 12.0 inches? Wouldn't 12 inches be the same thing?
    • Wet roads caused several traffic snarls across the state; in both Brevard and Volusia counties, a motorist was killed from an accident. Something about "Snarls" just doesn't sound like an encyclopediac word to me.
    • Rough seas off of Cape Fear left a sailboat of three people requiring rescue from the Coast Guard.[33] I would like to see "a sailboat containing three people..." Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 19:38, 19 April 2008.

    New York State Route 174

    I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel that it is ready for the big time. The article went through a major expansion in March 2008, clearing up typos, missing information, and thoroughness of the article. Route 174, if passed, would be USRD's fifth FA. I am willing to clear up any complaints. Mitch32contribs 18:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 22:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://village.marcellusny.com/villagehistory/village_history.html is a marginal site to use. Yes, it's the village's site, but it doesn't give the sources that they used. The book that you use for the next reference (History of the TOwn of Marcellus) is probably a better choice.
    • Is http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nyononda/MARCELLU/BEAUMAR.HTM an extract from the book at the top? If it is, it is the wrong author, and needs to be formatted like a book with just an online link to the online version. Rootsweb is of varying reliablity, honestly. It's designed for genealogists and the first rule of genealogy is "Go to the original source" so you can't always depend on the reprints that are on Rootsweb sites. It's kind of like Wikipedia that way.
    • Pucker Street ref is missing publisher information. Format it like a book if you're using Google books for it.
    All the links check out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Done - I fixed everything you listed.Mitch32contribs 22:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Lead needs expansion to at least 2, maybe 3 parags. "long thoroughfare" is POV - just state the facts or cite other people's opinions, not your own (not important, but "thoroughfare" is an interesting choice of word) --Dweller (talk) 16:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Seeing that the lead has been expanded to two full paragraphs, I support. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, this article does pertain to the WP:LEAD guideline of 1-2 paragraphs for something <15,000 characters. The article is only 6200. Mitch32contribs 16:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support --Laser brain (talk) 14:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Comments:[reply]
      • I checked your article organization against your WikiProject guideline and it looks good. Interestingly, Interstate 355 (another road FA) is backward. It seems to make more sense to have the History first and then the route description, doesn't it? So it's chronological?
    Done - The two sections are reordered.Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    See the comments below on this; the change might not be desirable. --Laser brain (talk) 14:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your image layout is bad; you don't want to "sandwich" text between two images. Try putting the one that actually shows the road in the text and nuking the other two. Photos of a lake and a barn don't add anything to the article.
    Done - I removed the lake picture.Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • In the lead, three sentences in a row begin with "Route 174".
    Done. Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "The roads used by Route 174..." sounds funny. Route 174 is a road; it doesn't use roads.
    Done. Mitch32contribs 15:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "... the lake narrows into the Nine Mile Creek, which parallels Route 174 for the rest of its length." The rest of the creek's length or the rest of the road's length?
    Done. Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Route 175 turns to the right while Route 174 turns to the left..." Let's not use relative directions, please.
    Done. Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "The terrain after Marcellus is more residential and developed, while everything south of it is flat, undeveloped land." As this sentence is drifting off by itself, its purpose is unclear. What significance is it to the road? And why does it need three citations?
    Done. It now has 2, this was added during the A-class review, which was to add some idea of the terrain about the article.Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "... intersecting several county routes along the way." You've been pretty granular in your description up to this point. Is there a reason you gloss over this part? I'm not saying you have to change it, I'm just wondering the reason.
    Done - Removed.Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The prose is good in the History section, but there are too many footnotes and it makes the section ugly. Why do some statements have two or three citations? Do the sources provide different types of information? --Laser brain (talk) 04:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - That would be correct. It does look ugly, but much of the history was rewritten from me, so its not quite an issue I can solve.Mitch32contribs 11:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues resolved,Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Follow up Dweller's comment, there are only so many words that can be used. Highway, route, road get boring after a while, so we get creative and "thoroughfare" comes up once in a while.
    • Follow up on Laser_brain's comments as follows:
      • Forgot to mention this earlier, but I object to re-ordering the article organization. The main emphasis of any highway article has typically been where is the highway now. Some highways like I-355 and Kansas Turnpike are mostly about the planning and construction, which also serve the function in the History of explaining where and why. Some like M-28 are more about where it is, in this case a 290-mile highway that runs almost end-to-end of one of Michigan's two peninsulas. Yes there is history to that one, but like NY 174, most readers are going to check it out for where it is, not where it was. Readers looking at I-355 are also looking into the controversies and planning of the highway. This is compounded by how recent the construction is.
      • But Route 174 as a designation uses more than one road. Not all state highway designations are overlaid on a single road. Sometimes they are applied to multiple roads, turn off them to another road, etc. The sentence could possibly be worded better, but that's the point it was trying to make.
      • Because some of the USRD editors hold fast that all county roads are of questionable notability even to be mentioned in a route description that tells where the highway designation intersects other roads. This was an issue brought up in the A-Class review for NY 174 and only settled to some editors' satisfaction by removing information and glossing over it.
        • Your recollection is correct; however, for the record, I completely disagree with removing detail just because said detail doesn't warrant an article. I also disagree with the notion that every road that gets mentioned in the description needs a junction list entry (something else that was brought up in the ACR). In New York, the junction list is only for highways that are part of the state highway, U.S. Route, or Interstate Highway systems, or for short roadways that connect the article route to a highway that falls in the aforementioned categories. Not really relevant to this FAC, but I just wanted to clear the air. – TMF 18:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Usually, that's the case with references for highway histories. Outside of Wikipedia articles, there are few sources the devote space to the complete history of a single highway designation. Most of the few have been deemed unacceptable by WP. So we end up with multiple citations.
        • Correct. Also, some of those few sources (like Gribblenation's New York Routes) are often incomplete or incorrect, hence the deemed unacceptable. Since the primary sources (where primary = major, ≠ firsthand) we have for reroutings are maps, it is then necessary to use multiple maps to establish a range and thus necessary to use multiple footnotes. – TMF 18:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I supported this for promotion to A-Class and I'm willing to support it for Feature Article after I review it again with a fresh set of eyes.Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The new, reorganized version of the article with the History first has changed my comments into an Oppose for now. Imzadi1979 (talk) 18:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    After further review and other issues cleared up with the other reviews, I support promotion of NY 174 to feature article. Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • The newest source on the Senate bill has its page title in ALL CAPS when it should be in Title Case. Also, it would be nice if you could find the bill number and a possible link to the legislature's website with the bill. I know the Michigan State Legislature is online with full bill texts and statuses, but I don't know if New York does the same or similar. Imzadi1979 (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Pucker Street source needs to be replaced or verified. As listed at Trafford Publishing and their own website, TP is a self-publishing and print-on-demand company. This means it falls under WP:SPS. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment regarding History v. Route description first

    • Having history first may seem better from a chronological point of view, but in most instances, it is more difficult to write that way (as most roads' History sections talk about changes made to the road compared to the present-day routing). Some articles, like Kansas Turnpike, have their history sections first, but that makes more sense for that article because all the history information in that article is about the planning and construction phases. Most highways' history sections involve many reroutings, extensions, and truncations. Lacking the context of having read the route description first, the history can be confusing. So, while having history first may appear at first glance to be better due to keeping an article chronologically in-order, and may even work well for some articles, for the majority of road articles, this isn't the case. So on NY 174 in particular, I would prefer putting the route description first and the history second. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 17:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Additional comment - the placement of the description vs. the history is a controversial topic, as you can see here. In the end, there was no visible consensus. – TMF 18:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Imzadi and the layout of images on the article - on my setup (Firefox @ 1680 x 1050) the image layout looks horrible. The top half of the article in particular is heavily unbalanced with all of the boxes and images set off to the right. – TMF 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Both issues have been fixed. I adjusted the locations by making 2 go the left and 1 to the right. Also, Route description is now back in front of the history.Mitch32contribs 18:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Slight support Oppose for now. Changed to support, although it's very short, and because of that the prose isn't particularly "engaging", but it does suffice.

    • Lead, why is the length of the route in the lead, but not in the main body of the article? Main body also doesn't say that it goes through Onondaga county? I see that information in the infobox, but shouldn't information in the lead and infobox be in the article body?
    The lead is meant to be redundant to information in the article. It's the cheat sheet for the article. Some folks don't like infoboxes, and might not read it. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I give in. Both are added to the first sentence for a better idea.Mitch32contribs 21:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Route description, the third paragraph is jarring, and is very short. May I suggest breaking it into two sentences, and putting those into the appropriate paragraphs earlier and later in the route description? Perhaps put "The land here is flat and undeveloped." right after the last sentence in the first paragraph, and then put "After Marcellus, the land around the route becomes more developed with residential areas becoming more common." right between the second and third sentence in the last pargraph. (That is between "... into the town of Camillus." and "In Bennets Corners..." Doing this would also help connect the last sentence of the current second paragraph with the first sentence of the current last paragraph, as right now the prose flow is interupted by the third paragraph.
    • One thing I noticed in the article is that while strange jargon terms are linked, it's not like the article is threatening to become too long. Might you be able to add small explanatory notes to the terms such as "jughandle", "reference route". Also, at-grade isn't wikilinked, but it is definitely jargon.
    So you want to force people to click through to other articles? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Done.Mitch32contribs 21:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That is the point of wikilinks—instead of explaining a term on every article that includes it, you simply link the term where it is used. So, to answer your question, yes, I would force people to click the link if they want to know what it is. – TMF 22:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    But WP:JARGON does suggest that technical terms be explained the in the articles. Yes, it says to wikilink to an article if it exists, but it doesn't say "don't bother explaining if there is an article".
    Even so, I still find it unnecessary at best and overkill at worst. – TMF 01:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Every time I have to type some variation on "The archbishop went to Rome to recieve his pallium, the symbol of his authority as an archbishop." I agree, but we're here to write the articles for the readers, who don't always want to have to spend forever clicking to figure something out. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I suppose it's not as bad when the description flows with the text around it as it does in your example above. The issue I'm having is that I can't figure out a way that the terms (reference route in particular) can be described in the same fashion without "interrupting" the prose around it. For example, the way it is in NY 174's history right now, it's a tack-on sentence to the end of the paragraph, whereas a concise definition that is part of the previous sentence would be preferable (to me anyway). – TMF 01:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps instead of "Route 321 has since been relocated to the west on a county road,[15] and Forward Road is now Route 931F, an unsigned reference route. A reference route is a minor state-maintained route." you could try something like "Since then, Route 321 was detached from 174 to a county road to the west. Forward Road became Route 93F, an unsigned reference route, or minor state-maintained road."? It's just a suggestion, of course. I've already changed to support. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • the second sentence of the the last paragraph of History is very twisty and could stand to be broken down into two sentences. Perhaps "After Route 5 was realigned onto the expressway that runs from Camillus to Fairmont, Route 174 was extended at its north end to the new Route 5 bypass in Camillus. The new alignment makes a sharp hook west along the former Route 5."
    • I seem to ask this of every road GA I do, but I'll ask it again. Does the road pass any historical sites/parks/anything of interest? Does it go through any historic downtowns? I see the bits about the land being more developed past Marcellus, but is that undeveloped land farmland, or woods or just waste? What are the normal crops? Is it hilly? Lots of creeks? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - half of this is impossible to put in. MoS for roads doesn't ask for crops along a route. Also, there is not 1 park, historical site, or really anything of interest along the way.Mitch32contribs 21:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Err.. MOS for roads? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Mainly the structure laid on the project pages.Mitch32contribs 21:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll also point out the article only has 1100 or so words according to the readablity tool above. The readable prose is hovering around 12KB with Dr PDA's tool, and less from the readability tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    In fairness, it's a somewhat short route that passes through sparsely developed areas for the most part so there isn't much to say—much different than, say, NY 5 or NY 22. – TMF 01:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I still think that descriptions of the land around the route belong in the article, but I did gather this was through relatively boring areas. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Everything south of Marcellus village is completely rural (as classified by the Census Bureau). Between Marcellus and Camillus there is some urbanization but that is restricted to the immediate vicinity of road only. Looking at a satellite and topographic map, it appears that the undeveloped land around the road is mainly farmland but I can't be sure without an actual land use map. I don't know what crops grow in these farms. In terms of terrain, it essentially runs along the valley of the Nine Mile Creek so the entire route is mostly on low land. --Polaron | Talk 01:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Crops? Land usage surrounding the highway? That's irrelevant information that has nothing to do with the road itself. That type of information would be better covered in the article for Onondaga County, New York. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 23:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Heaven forbid that I suggest a way to make the article a bit more appealing and interesting. I'll try to remember that in the future. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment. I'm not familiar with NY roads, and I have a mental block when it comes to directions (maps/pictures help me a lot!). By the end of the article I got bogged down a bit in the number of roads that were mentioned and how they all connected. I pulled up the large version of the map that is in the infobox, but it doesn't list all of the main roads mentioned. Can the image be modified to include labels for NY41, NY5 and rt 175? Karanacs (talk) 14:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Sure, I can look into it. However, I doubt it'll be done before the FAC ends. Although its a good idea.Mitch32contribs 16:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Provisional support—Shouldn't page numbers be provided for references that are put up as supporting specific claims in the main text? For example, refs 23 and 24. Please undot the captions—see MOS on that. TONY (talk) 11:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed the periods for Mitchazenia since I peeked in and saw the comment. Imzadi1979 (talk) 16:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed Refs 23 and 24 since they were simply referring to the Seneca Turnpike, which has its own article and is already linked. The page numbers were added to the references on the Seneca Turnpike article. All the other book references already have page numbers. --Polaron | Talk 20:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support A well written and thoroughly referenced article and is a good example for other state route articles. My only objesction is the map could be better, a road sign for Route 174 would be very nice. The map isn't the easiest to read but I am colorblind, so. Any way. Full support. Dincher (talk) 01:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Looks like a well written article. Good job! GaryKing (talk) 10:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support —Please don't hold back the FAC for this, but it would be good, (for this reader at least), to include some information on the local geology and flora. What's the route built on? What species of trees line the route and so forth. It might lead to more engaging prose, the article is a bit dry in this regard. GrahamColmTalk 19:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:39, 16 August 2008 [21].

    1995 Japanese Grand Prix

    Nominator(s): D.M.N. (talk)
    previous FAC (00:07, 17 May 2008)


    I nominated this article once in March, and again in May, with both FAC's failing due to a number of issues, mostly concerning reliable sources. I have removed the un-reliable sources from the article, and added more reliable sources such as books. I've also tried to tighten up the prose in places so that the text flows better. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 08:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    More to come later. —Giggy 10:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Date linking is no longer encouraged by MoS, which is different than saying it is discouraged. The exact wording at Wikipedia:MOSDATE#Date autoformatting is: "Careful consideration of the disadvantages and advantages of the autoformatting mechanism should be made before applying it." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Date linking was only used in one place in this article. It doesn't add anything whatsoever to the article, so I've got rid of it. D.M.N. (talk) 15:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry Sandy, my mistake - I'll be more careful with my wording in future. —Giggy 08:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    And yeah, that's all I got. —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Support as all issues are addressed. —Giggy 07:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    oppose Image:Podium1995JapanGP.jpg fails WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    How? —Giggy 10:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not unsuprisingly, it's presence does not significantly increase my understanding of the topic, and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding, feel free to use the link above Fasach Nua (talk) 13:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, so reading that, it sounds like no photo whatsoever would increase someone's knowledge of the topic. Would a picture of the start of the race be better? D.M.N. (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there a problem with the readers' understanding of how the race began, that would require such an image? Fasach Nua (talk) 16:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know. It sounds like that any image of the race that I put into this article would get struck down by this claim as such. D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    If the article doesnt need a copyrighted image than it doesnt need a copyrighted image! Fasach Nua (talk)
    Note: Much as comments here should be about content rather than the contributor, I don't think this user really understands the criteria he is citing, and has made a number of misguided recent edits under this belief. Bob talk 17:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    My take on the criteria is the image has to be one of a defining event. You could justify something like the start crash at Spa '98 because it's hard to convey the extent of the incident without an image. Here, the main purpose appears to be to identify drivers, whom are living people. In addition the copyright tag used is "This is a copyrighted image that has been released by a company or organization to promote their work or product in the media, such as advertising material or a promotional photo in a press kit." - the image actually appears to come from Getty. AlexJ (talk) 18:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I see what you mean. It guess it could be argued that the circumstances of this image are unrepeatable, even if they aren't as unreplacable as images such as the example you gave. Difficult to say, isn't it? I still don't think it's justifiable to oppose a whole candidacy on the basis of one image, though, especially as it does have all the correct fairuse information, etc. Bob talk 19:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the clarification, Fasach Nua. I'm familiar with NFCC and was questioning your justification in this case since clearly, differing people see that policy differently. D.M.N., I would suggest you add a few free images (Michael Schumacher, Mika Häkkinen, and Johnny Herbert all have them, as well as Commons categories to choose from other images) instead of the nonfree one, since I do agree with the statement "If the article doesnt need a copyrighted image than it doesnt need a copyrighted image!" (opposition over this is valid, even if some consider it silly). —Giggy 08:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    OK. I've removed the podium image, and added two free use images, one of Schumacher, and another of Damon Hill. D.M.N. (talk) 08:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's worth noting in the caption of the Schumacher image that it was taken several years after the event.--Diniz(talk) 22:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Another point concerning images - if images of 1995 season cars in action are required beyond what we have already, then I could ask the Flickr user I got these two images from to change the licensing on the rest of his photo set from the 1995 British Grand Prix.--Diniz(talk) 23:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion the article meets criteria 3 in full Fasach Nua (talk) 10:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - One thing that stands out a bit for me in this article is the picture of Michael Schumacher. Now there is probably nobody on the planet who knows MS but doesn't know he drove for Ferrari. But the point is this article is about the 1995 Japanese Grand Prix - when he drove for Benetton, therefore it strikes me as strange to have him pictured in his 2005 Ferrari shirt. Someone's going to say 'but we don't have a picture of him in Benetton colours' – I know that, but the picture isn't central to the article in any way so I think it would be better to remove it. Mark83 (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • As he's the winner of the race, and a key figure surrounding the event, I think it's best to keep it until a free one of him in the Benetton comes up. I will (however), follow Diniz's suggestion and note in the caption that the image was taken in 2005. D.M.N. (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    CommentsSupport - I was a supporter last time, but I have become better at spotting writing errors since the last FAC. Let's see what I can find.

    I'll look at the rest after these are done, but there isn't much more to review, which is good. Spend some time checking the commas, since I found the most issues in that department. As for the picture, you could always insert a free photo of Schumacher if the podium shot remains an issue. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Time for the final comments from me. I'll perform strikes after these are looked at, so don't worry that I haven't done it yet. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "set the fastest lap on lap 33" A tad redundant with the laps.
    • If I removed that, it would be: "Schumacher, who came out in second after his pit stop, set the fastest lap." - for me, saying that in my head, it sounds like the sentence stops abruptly without any kind of flow - it's like it would be missing a bit of information - the reader wouldn't know when he set it (of course they could look in the infobox). D.M.N. (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the References, you could move the full Autocourse reference with author, dates, ISBN etc. to a new Reference section, renaming the existing section to Notes. The individual citations would then be just the author and page number. This is only a suggestion and not something I would withhold support over. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's all from me. I told you there wasn't that much more. Assuming these are handled quickly, I will return tomorrow to perform strikes and give my support. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

    Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Chronic

    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 16:33, 24 May 2008.

    The Wiggles

    previous FAC (00:03, 17 April 2008)

    Self-nominator --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    This marks the fourth time this article has been nominated for FA. In addition, it has been through three peer reviews, a copyedit, and a GAN. As this article's main editor, I have gone on the record, on its talk page, my feelings about the process. One of its weaknesses has been its subject; few editors know about The Wiggles or seem to be interested enough to give the feedback this article has needed. I have followed every reasonable recommendation that has been made, so this article has been greatly improved, even since its last FAC. Most significantly, I have expanded this article by adding two new sections. It is now more like an article about a music group in its structure and tone, and deserving of promotion. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Well, it's not the *most* reliable source, but I think it's adequate for our purposes. It happens to be the website of Murray Cook's old band, before he went to university, met the other guys, and helped form The Wiggles. Although WP:SPS policy says the following about self-published sources:
    Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
    I think that keeping the BSL site is acceptable because it falls within the "largely" wiggle-room. (Pun intended, haha.) It is self-published, but I think its creators are trustworthy enough to keep it in. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 00:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've left this out for others to decide for themselves. For myself, I'm thinking it's on the fence enough that I can deal with it. Would be nice if it could be replaced with a better source, but... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Sources look good. Links checked out fine. *IF* I have time, I'll try to get around to reviewing this more fully. I make no promises, I'm quite stretched for time right now. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support with the following quibbles.

    • Lead, the "the world's biggest preschool band" needs a direct citation on it.
    Done.
    • Lead, there are a lot of sentences that start "They..." consider rewording a few.
    Ok.
    • Musical style section, first paragraph, shouldn't it be "The Wiggles write new music..."? Wrote implies that they don't write new music any more.
    Changed; I also changed some of the tenses to present tense in that section.
    • Reception section, last pargraph, shouldn't it be "Scholar Kathleen Warren, the group's former professor at Macquarie Univerisity, has been a consultant..."? Using the past tense implies that she is no longer a consultant.
    Done; similar problem as above.
    I'm not a copyeditor, by any means, so don't take this as meaning that the prose is perfect. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your support. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comments

    Hello again. Maybe this time, eh? :)

    Hi, Di. Here's hopin', mate!

    • I'm going to do a rewrite of the lead asap, I spotted a few issues there...
    Feel free, have at it!
    • "a popular pub rock band that had Top 40 hits in Australia during the 1980s." - is there a ref for this?
    Fixed & clarified.
    • "seemed reminiscent of the misfortunes of Pete Best, the 'fifth Beatle' who famously departed the Beatles before they became the biggest band in the world" - who said this?
    Um, the ref, from an article about Welcher, is cited immediately after the quote.
    • "Field, to test out the effect of their music on children, gave a copy of their album to one of his young students" - reword this...start the sentence with "To test out..."

    I don't believe in starting sentences with prepositions. ;) How's about this for a compromise: "Field gave a copy of their album to one of his young students to test out the effect of their music on children..."

    • "became teachers,[10] but on their manager's advice, they toured..." - what's this got to do with them being teachers?
    Well, they were going to school to become teachers, but took a year off to tour as The Wiggles to see if they could make a living out of it. Perhaps it needs some clarification: "Field, Cook, and Page began their teaching careers,[10]..."
    • "music has "enhanced their lives"" - is it necessary to quote here?
    Removed quote.
    • ""Lights, Camera, Action, Wiggles" aired on Channel 7 in 2003, and "The Wiggles Show" in 2004 and 2005" - I think these should be in italics (check MOS:ITALICS)
    Thanks for changing it.
    • "was different than his band mates," - "to that of" would work better then "than" IMO
    Followed suggestion.

    (more coming later)
    dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks again. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The Wiggles write new music each year since their inception" - tense..."have written", I think
    Notice that I rewrote that section to present tense. I made a change a few sentences later ("They wrote songs individually at first, but eventually would write as a group...") to make it more clear.
    • The use of "X reports" in the style section is odd...I'm not sold on using "report", can you try another word?
    Sure, boss. Reports → states. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 03:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In 2003, when the group performed..." - currencies need to be noted in this paragraph. eg. $, $ (see where the link goes).
    Got it.

    Yeah, that's about all I got. Going to work on lead now. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I have some issues with the lead as you changed it. See article's talk page. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 03:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Leaning towards support I didn't know anything about this group before I read this article and I believe it is an excellent introduction and description. It would appear that the editors have sifted through every possible newspaper source - I'm impressed! I checked every source as I was reading. Almost all of them appear to be reliable newspapers. The one problem I had is listed below. Here are the questions and suggestions I have:

    Thank you; the key to this kind of thing is setting up a Google search, which has been responsible for most of the additions that I've been able to make to this article.
    • Has anyone checked to see if Kathleen Warren has published anything on The Wiggles in a peer-reviewed, academic venue?
    I just did a brief Google search, and I was able to find one good source, which I will include the next chance I have. I discovered, however, that Warren has written some things for The Wiggles (mostly related to Dorothy). She warrants her own article. I could find nothing peer-reviewed, unfortunately. I've talked about that extensively in this process. Blue's Clues has had more academic review, probably because the guys are teachers, not researchers, and everyone else involved with them are performers, not academics.
    • It would be nice if more could be said about the group's musical style. From the article talk page, I understand that the sources are limited, however.
    Something else that has been documented. I included everything that's out there, I'm certain. I hope that doesn't impede the article's progress.
    • Is it possible to quote some song lyrics? I am unsure if lyrics fall under copyright protection like the audio clips.
    Hmm, I think they are under copyright protection. I'm not sure how quoting their lyrics would add to the article. There is a mention about their "simple lyrics", and this in the "Musical style" section: "The Wiggles music isn't all that far removed from what we did in The Cockroaches, just a different subject matter", Field stated. "The Cockroaches sing about girls and love and stuff like that; The Wiggles sing about hot potatoes and cold spaghetti".[44] I think to do more would fall in OR territory.
    As someone who studies literature, I guess I am always keen to include some of the "original text". :) Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The videos are discussed so often - is it possible to obtain a fair use video clip?
    Again, I don't think there are fair use videos.
    • In 2008, the group was part of a "ticketing scandal" - This suggests that the group was involved in the scandal, but as far as I can tell from the source, they were not. Perhaps this sentence should be reworded?
    Done, changed to: "In 2008, the group found themselves in the midst of a "ticketing scandal";[48]"
    • In Australian English, are collective groups referred to in the singular or the plural? I thought it was a little odd to read "The Wiggles are..." and "Their original members..." instead of "The Wiggles is..." and "Its original members..." - Interestingly, sometimes in the article the group is referred to in the singular and sometimes in the plural. I'm not sure that there is a pattern, though.
    Something else that has been discussed. This is what was said:
    According to this, the correct usuage is, "The Wiggles were." Right from the article: Proper nouns that are plural in form take a plural verb in both AmE and BrE; for example, The Beatles are a well-known band; The Giants are the champions.
    I went through this very extensively, unless it's been vandalized. So it's pretty consistent: "The Wiggles are.." and "The group is..." because it's correct usage.
    So, you see "Wiggles" as plural, I take it? Ah, I see. Ok. Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's because it is an ad. I changed the ref, though, to "See..." The answer to your question is no, there is not a better source. The CD ad is an example, since it lists the song. There's also the music clip.
    I think we might have to remove that piece of information, then, sadly. Advertisements are not reliable sources. Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand this objection. However, there is the "Ignore all rules" policy: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." I think we should follow this policy in this case. This source, which lists the songs in a Cockroaches album, is the only source that portrays that "Do the Monkey" was originally a Cockroach tune. The Cockroaches is both old and obscure enough that they don't have a website or even a listing on Amazon. I think it's an important enough point to retain the reference, with the compromise of "See..." --Figureskatingfan (talk) 02:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the point is important, too. However, I do not think it is acceptable to ignore the RS policy. We must present our readers with reliable information - this is not. Awadewit (talk) 13:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I went ahead and deleted this reference. I was able to download the audio sample of "Do the Monkey" that makes the same point, anyway. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mulligan, Mark. A brief history of nearly everything BSL (DOC). Retrieved on 6 August 2007. - This footnote needs a web source. The link is to a document, but including the website where it is published is also necessary.
    This is very odd. For some reason, the reference tag doesn't list the source. I suspect it's due to the .doc extension, so I hope that my solution is adequate.
    • This link wasn't working for me. I only got the ads.
    Hmm, I was able to get it, even after I cleared my cookies and internet files.
    Working for me today - internet weirdness, I guess! Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm no fair use expert, but the two audio samples seem to illustrate very similar ideas. I wonder if perhaps we should stick with one?
    I respectfully disagree. "Get Ready to Wiggle" shows where they got their name, and "Do the Monkey" is an example of an old revamped Cockroaches song. The perfect solution is to get a sample of the original Cockroaches tune. I own the song, but I haven't been able to transfer it to OGG format. I'll work on it again.
    That would be wonderful. Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Woo hoo! Done! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    As someone who studies children's literature professionally, albeit that from the eighteenth century, I would like to commend this editor for his/her work. It is not easy to write about children's media without descending into the cutsey or the pedantic. I think that this article has hit on an excellent tone. Awadewit (talk) 17:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Gosh, what a nice thing to say. The Wiggles are the real deal--actual musicians with real performing and song writing skills. They respect and don't speak down to their audience, so I tried really hard to follow their example in their article. Both my kids are disabled, and the guys have really influenced them and our entire family in positive ways, so they at least deserve a FA in WP. They make a real difference, unlike so much of children's entertainment that's out there. So thank you.

    Comments: I see unencyclopedic tones every now and then. "although their performances were full of energy", maybe "very energetic" is better? "piggybacking": that's quite colloquial. Also isn't there any discussion in the media of the criticism of the band? They must've been subject to an awful lot of parody for being extremely annoying to adults, like Barney is. Being somebody who works music articles a lot, seeing a Reception section in a band article in a rather odd. Generally, the critical reception to the band's records is distributed throughout the article along with discussion of the respective record. Why aren't the band members consistently referred to by their last names; that is required to achieve encyclopedic tone. indopug (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Indopug, thanks for your input. The "unencyclopedic tone", to be honest, has been a struggle in this article, both due to my inexperience as a writer and editor, and due to the subject matter. I've made the two changes you've suggested. Criticism of The Wiggles, as has already been discussed, is quite rare. (See this, last point, where I say that The Wiggles aren't Jamie-Lynn Spears, and that they're boring but cute.) A previous version of this article had a "trivia section" and examples of parodies of The Wiggles (on Jimmy Kimmel, for example), but it was recommended to delete the section. It was put on a separate article (Cultural references to The Wiggles) instead.
    Regarding the Reception section: it's here because The Wiggles aren't just a music band; they're a children's entertainment unit, with TV shows, videos, and live shows. I made a conscious decision to not structure it like other band articles, although after some good advice, I was definately influenced by them. (I was also influenced by Sesame Street.) Unlike other bands, The Wiggles aren't a group defined by their CDs, so it's unrealistic to structure their article that way. Plus, there are simply no sources out there reviewing individual albums. See the challenge?
    Finally, your issue about the use of the guys' first names. That was also previously discussed, in the previous FAC. It happens one time, in the paragraph about their stage personnas, where they're called by their first names. I think that makes the paragraph clearer, so I think it should remain.--Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Quick comment; I just realised there's only a brief passing mention of "Wake up Jeff", whilst there's a fair bit of talk of their finger-wiggling technique. IMO "Wake up Jeff" needs a bit more discussion as it's rather iconic of The Wiggles. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Good point. However, where do we draw the line? There are lots of iconic stuff: "Fruit salad yummy yummy"; "D-O-R-O-T-H-Y"; "Wags the Dog he likes to tango"--should I go on? What should be included and what not, and where can be find sources for it? Anyway, "Wake Up Jeff" is discussed on Jeff Fatt's article. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 07:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd say that those other things aren't as notable as the Jeff meme. What do the sources say? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The sources say very little about iconic memes of The Wiggles. If they did, it would've been included. It already has stuff about their schticks and characters. And like I said, Jeff's narcolepsy is discussed on his bio page. To be fair, though, I'll see about adding that info over here.
    Di, I don't know what we were arguing about. I guess I was asleep, har har. There's already something about "Wake up Jeff" in the article--in the reception section. I did add the line about how the practice was developed, though.--Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe that I have addressed every single issue brought up about this article. Can someone please pass it, please?--Figureskatingfan (talk) 07:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    That isn't really how FAC works! :) Articles are passed by SandyGeorgia after a set period of time and when there is sufficient support; I don't think this FAC has either yet. You'll just need to wait a bit more! :) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand that, Di. I was expressing some frustration about the process.--Figureskatingfan (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Further

    Thanks for your clarifications above. I just have two more things:

    • I think it would improve the lead if you could take "The Wiggles have been called...four million CDs.[3]" from the first paragraph and make it the last paragraph. As I see it, that bit talks exclusively of the quantitative success of the band and moving it to the end would make the lead read analogous to the the article's body itself (first History then Reception). Further, I always get the feeling that whenever an article has its subject's success very close to the start, it is trying to (pardon my phrasing) shove POV down my throat that this "<subject> is ZOMG so awesum". What I mean is just after being introduced to who The Wiggles are, I confronted with "they are the biggest kids-rock band ever" with nothing (so far) helping me put that success into perspective or even telling me just why they are famous at all. Note that this reworking of the lead requires no major rewording, just shifting of text.
    Didn't mean to shove anything down your throat, mate. ;) So I went ahead and made this change as per your advice/recommendation.
    • Like any obsessive rock music fan should, I take offence to the quote, "seemed reminiscent of the misfortunes of Pete Best, the 'fifth Beatle' who famously departed the Beatles before they became the biggest band in the world". Although it is a quote, and not an encyclopedic statement, it is factually incorrect. If you click on the link, you will see that "Fifth Beatle" is a term that is variously accorded to many individuals close to the Beatles (some more deserving than Best, who didn't just leave either, but was acrimoniously fired). While this is tangential to the issue at hand, the quote obviously conveys misinformation to the reader. Could you remove the quote and rephrase the sentence? Of course, you could just replace "the fifth Beatle" with "..." in the quote, but I think the whole thing would work better without a quotation anyway. indopug (talk) 20:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Man, I'm pushing your buttons all over the place! At least they're not Capt. Feathersword's magic buttons. Anyway, I'm only obsessive about The Wiggles, so I didn't know the above info. Thanks for pointing them out, and I made the changes as requested.--Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • You know what? I was really sleepy when I wrote that. A lot of the meaning and significance is lot without it, so I think its fine. I've reverted it back. indopug (talk) 13:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support - I reviewed this at Peer Review some time ago and am glad to see how it has improved since. A few suggestions:

    • Add "other" for clarity in The band gained popularity in the United States in 1998 when Lyrick Studios, the producers of Barney & Friends, began distributing Wiggles videos in the US and advertising them in their [other] videos.
    • Possible word change, use "from" instead of "to" in Moran's background in musical theatre was different to that of his band mates,...
    • Give the year for their honorary doctorates

    Great work and perserverance, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. The above suggestions have been followed. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support I find no further problems regarding a possible unencyclopedic tone; the article is very good. indopug (talk) 20:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Wait, this needs rewriting: "The group has decided to play a different kind of children's music.[4] They are not tied to one style or genre of music and are able to experiment in the studio." I think there's some tense issues in there. indopug (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support This is an article that I've contributed to heavily, but Figureskatingfan has been the driving force behind getting it to the quality that it's at. I've not voiced my opinion on previous FAC's because I didn't feel that the article was quite there. I do now, so I'll make one of my rare FAC appearances.Balloonman (talk) 07:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Note: I formatted some incomplete citations, and I want to make sure the nominator is aware that TV.com is generally not reliable for most purposes, although it seems to be used here only to source characters played, so that seems allright. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup, I'm aware. And you're correct--this source is used only for the characters. I figured using TV.com was better than OR, so I took the risk. Thanks for the format changes. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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    The article was promoted 00:57, 28 April 2008.

    Confirmed Dead

    Self-nomination This article from WP:LOST on the second fourth season episode of the television show Lost was passed as a good article seven minutes ago by Bláthnaid (is that a new record?), who wrote that, "This is an excellent article. It is well written, the plot section is succinct, and there is lots of interesting real world information." Thanks to Sceptre, who wrote the plot section's prose. –thedemonhog talk • edits 15:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'll just have a look at the section I wrote to see if I can improve the prose. Sceptre (talk) 16:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 23:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    All other links checked out with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    See changes. BuddyTV has an article and VFXWorld has an interview with a Lost editor. –thedemonhog talk • edits 17:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It wasn't that BuddyTV has an article that led me to strike the concern, it was that the article listed their webpage that told about them. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Well-written, fully referenced, yada yada yada. What Lost S4 episode isn't?
      • Some reviewers praised the episode for doing a fine job of introducing the new characters, while others criticized this by saying that it caused the pace to slow.
        • Saying "the new characters" is assuming readers already know who the new characters are, which hasn't been mentioned by this point. Maybe reword.
        • After reading over the Reception section, I'm not fully convinced that reviewers (generally) criticised the episode's pace at all, let alone blaming this on the introduction of the new characters.
      • The narrative takes place in late December 2004 over ninety days after the crash - is it possible to reword so it doesn't sound as if the episode takes place over a period of ninety days?
      • Miles is a medium, who is hired... - no need for a comma unless we say "Miles, a medium, is hired..."
      • Charlotte is an anthropologist, who finds... - as above unless we have "Charlotte, an anthropologist, finds..."
      • Locke's group finds Charlotte, takes her prisoner, and dispose of her tracking device - "group" is a singular noun (although referring to multiple people) so grammatically "disposes" would be correct as with "takes".
      • several people become discontent with Locke's revelation that he is following the instructions of Walt Lloyd (Malcolm David Kelley), who had left the island a month previously[7] and they also question - being a bit picky with grammar but IMO the commas act a little like brackets and thus there should be another comma before the ref. Just the way I'd write it, though - commas are personal things. ;)
      • specifically, Charlotte's identity - no need for comma.
      • In the first instance of ref8 although ref tags generally should be placed after punctuation I'd go with the tag before the em dash, just because the dashes bracket off what is almost its own statement (if that makes sense; I'm not the best at explaining things... see Dash#Em dash) so it just makes sense to keep the tag inside the dashes.
      • the writer-producers that "it would be cool - they "believed that..."? They "thought that..."?
      • As I've said before, "much different" doesn't sound grammatically correct but leave it in if you think it's just because I'm Australian.
      • Mader's character's name... - no need to re-state "Mader".
      • A typical Lost episode contains fifty visual effects shots. Citation?
      • No need to use separate refs for 31 & 32 for different pages of an article. Put 'em both under page 1.
    • We'll have to check up with Guinness on the GAN to FAC record, but I reckon seven minutes is worth a few FA brownie points. —97198 talk 04:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support Couple of small things need fixing:

    • "rumoured BE spelling > "rumored" AE
    • kilometres > "kilometers"
    • 130 kilometres offshore needs conversion into miles
    • introductions of new characters > "introduction of new characters"
    --ROGER DAVIES talk 08:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll take responsibility for the British English: I wrote that section and I'm British, so... yeah. Sceptre (talk) 14:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I will also take responsibility for the British English because I am Canadian. –thedemonhog talk • edits 16:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The idea is to not mix and match styles so either it's all AE or all BE. The obvious choice seems AE as this series has strong national links to the US, per WP:ENGVAR. --ROGER DAVIES talk 18:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues resolved, ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Oppose: Why are two screenshots used? Given that the infobox image’s purpose is merely “to identify the subject [Confirmed Dead]”, why couldn’t Image:Tunisian polar bear.png be used for this? It would “kill two birds with one stone”, as it would continue to show the “female Indiana Jones”. WP:NFCC#3A requires “Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary”. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The first section is for the plot section and the second is for the production section. There are a lot of things in the production section that could be illustrated (Miles's clothing, Franks's beard, a visual effects shot, etc.) so one picture seems to qualify as "minimal use" to me. –thedemonhog talk • edits 16:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Could be" illustrated is not "need to be" illustrated. Fair use images can only be used when they both, among other things, contribute significantly to our understanding and are used only when necessary. Frankly, I'd argue that both images fail the former, but I'm only going to press the issue of the current use of two images when one would accomplish the same purpose, as described by the FURs. The current usage is not minimal. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Well-done, especially the Reception section, which is excellent. A couple minor points:
    • Most or all of the episode was shot from September 11[28] to 23, 2007[29] and filming overlapped with the following episode.[30] -- In this sentence, it seems odd to have citations in the middle like that, when they are not directly after a comma. Best IMO to move those cites all to the end of the sentence, in that particular case. Cirt (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • References section -- pushed over to the left by the Wikiquote box - I'd suggest moving the Wikiquote box to a "External links" section, and add one or two helpful links to that section. Perhaps IMDB and the show's website about the episode. Cirt (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The plot could use two or so brief background sentences, though this is not necessarily required because the reader can go to the other wiki articles for background - but still, it would be helpful. Cirt (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Overall, great work, these are just some other pointers which would make the article better. Cirt (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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    The article was promoted 00:03, 17 April 2008.

    State of Vietnam referendum, 1955

    This article is about the rigged referendum held by Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem in order to depose Emperor Bao Dai and establish the Republic of Vietnam, commonly known as South Vietnam. This article is very short. The reasons for this are that BAo Dai was living overseas in France, and couldn't be bothered running the country, so there was basically no attempt on his part to campaign. Secondly, campaigning for Bao Dai was banned anyway, so there was never any real election campaign or policy debates. In the end, the result was faked (133% in Saigon), so since there weren't any proper results, the historians didn't bother to analyse the referendum much at all. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Shouldn't the Jacobs book be in a references section if its used as a reference?
    Other than a small typo I fixed, everything looks good on sources. No links so they all work. I'll try to get back later and do a full read to support or oppose. (I highly doubt I'll be opposing, it looked pretty good from my quick glance). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support although I have a few picky things I noticed

    • U.S. or US? You use the first in the first paragraph of Background, the second in the second paragraph.
    • Voting and aftermath section, the second paragraph, first sentence seems a bit run on and awkward to me. "The elections were held with Diem's brother and confidant Ngo Dinh Nhu, the leader of the family's Can Lao Party, which supplied Diem's electoral base, organising and supervising the election." The subject and verb are separated by two explanatory phrases, it might flow better worded something like "The elections were organised and supervised by Diem's brother and confidant Ngo Dinh Nhu, who was the leader of the family's Can Lao Party, which supplied Diem's electoral base.
    • Picky, but in the second paragraph of Voting, you should probably go with 450,000 instead of 450 thousand for consistency with the number right before it.
    Very nice article on an important but little recorded subject. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks and fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues resolved,--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • "Most historians felt that Bao Dai selected Diem because of his ability to attract US support and funding." That seems to imply that historians may subsequently have changed their minds?
    • "Bao Dai sold the license of the national police to the Binh Xuyen." Not sure what that means. Were the Binh Xuyen allowed to set up a private police force, replacing the existing one? What happened to the old police force?
    • "He slowly began to bribe Hoa Hao and Cao Dai commanders into joining the VNA, while others continued to continue their operations." "Continued to continue ..."? What does "slowly" mean in this context?
    • "Diem got the Council of the Royal Family at Hue to declare that Bao Dai be stripped of his powers and that Diem be made president." Got doesn't seem like very encyclpedic language. "Diem got ... to declare that .. Diem be made president" doesn't sound right. Why not "... and that he be made president"?
    • "Three days after the vote, Diem proclaimed the creation of the Republic of Vietnam, naming himself as its President." Inconsistency in the capitalisation of president. Compare this sentence with the one above for instance.
    • "Colonel Edward Lansdale (pictured) helped Diem in his campaign." Who else would be in the picture?
    • "After a period of three hundred days during which free passage between both halves of Vietnam was allowed, the border was closed on 11 October 1954". It would be helpful to say a bit about who opened the border, who closed it, and why.
    • "Despite Bao Dai's interference, Diem had managed to subdue the private armies run by opposition religious sects and organised criminals." There doesn't seem to be any context for this given in the lead. Were private armies a particular problem in pre-1955 Vietnam? Why did Bao Dai dislike Diem?
    --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have tweaked or clarified these things, except I don't think the lead is the approrpaite place to detail the long history of animosity between Diem and Bao Dai. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment—The prose is not quite of the required professional standard, and needs someone fresh to it to run through carefully. I picked up the following examples at random at the top, to indicate the need for the whole text to be polished.

    • "He accumulated high tallies in excess of 90% even in rural regions where voting was prevented by opposition groups." Comma after "90%". Logic problem—is the figure a percentage of eligible voters (in which case it makes sense), or actual votes (in which case, it doesn't add up if the opposition suppressed the turn-out). You'll need to specify. Some readers, like me, come from jurisdictions in which voting is mandatory, and almost everyone toes the line. Others don't; further confusion.
    • "police went from door to door warning people to vote"—warning is usually associated with "don't". Here, would "encouraging" be better?
    • "After a period of three hundred days during which free passage between both halves of Vietnam was allowed, the border was closed on 11 October 1954."—Nope, put the time-phrase—either "The border was closed on 11 October 1954," or just "On 11 October 1954," at the start, followed by a comma.
    • "During the free movement period"—bit awkward; why not "During those 300 days," to make the text more cohesive? TONY (talk) 06:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Another round of copyedit is being done, in addition to these specific points. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. A well-written and informative article on a little-known (to me, anyway) subject. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. Very nice article. Karanacs (talk) 13:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. I couldn't see anything wrong with the article. Seems neutral and well-written. Images are all free. No reason to oppose. Well done. Woody (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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    The article was promoted 01:10, 15 April 2008.

    Rufus Wilmot Griswold

    Giving this a go, as pretty much the only major contributor in the past year or so. Reviewers, I'd suggest you particularly think of neutrality, proper sourcing, and clean writing as I admit they may be problematic. --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Oberholtzer ref needs some formatting. Title should be in italics to match the rest of the refs.
    • In the really picky department. You use p. as an abbreviation in some of the footnotes, but most don't. Consistency is a good thing.
    • http://www.virtualology.com/rufuswilmotgriswold/ what makes this a reliable source? They say "welcomes editing and additions to the biographies". Also the ref needs a last access date.
    • http://www.eapoe.org/geninfo/poegrisw.htm needs a last access date. It looks okay to me as a source For the second usage of it, to quote from a letter of Griswold's, you probably should say that you got the letter quotation from a website. Something like "Quoted from Site {Publisher) (access date).
    Otherwise all the links checked out, the sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Good catch. I'll find a replacement for that virtualology one. I'll see if I can replace the eapoe.org one too, otherwise I'll just fix up the citation format, add access date, etc. The footnotes have "p." if they are not in abbreviated format. It would look odd with the ISBN number followed by a number, so the "p." seems like a logical way of displaying it clearly. What do you suggest? Thanks for taking a look by the way! --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The quickie answer is to put the p. in the rest of the footnotes, but I'm not sure you have to do that. I'm not an MOS-maven, so lets let someone else chime in on that one. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    All you need is uniformity. Just as long as you stick with one way of indicating page numbers (either "XX, p. 111" or "XX, 111"), then you shouldn't have any MoS worries. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 04:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Midnight, I did a bit of copy editing of a section to improve flow, as the prose seemed a little staccato to me (he did this, he did that, he did the next). However, if you don't like it, feel free to revert me, as I know it can be annoying to submit something for FA and have people who've not worked on it start changing things. Regarding page numbers, I see you've put some after the ISBN. The usual thing is to write p. 100 or position it with a colon after the date of publication e.g. 2008:100. Both would be before the ISBN, which would normally be the last thing in the citation, if included at all. SlimVirgin talk|edits 07:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just to clarify, a citation with page number would look something like: Smith, John. Name of Book. London: Random House, 2008, p. 100. And then the ISBN number if you want to provide it. There are variations on this theme, but that would be one acceptable way of writing them. SlimVirgin talk|edits 07:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Copy edits were great, so thanks! So you're saying I should add back the "p."? Does that affect the shortened references? --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    No, you don't have to add back the p if you'd rather not. But it should come before the ISBN, so for example with this one: "Frank, Frederick and Anthony Magistrale. The Poe Encyclopedia. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1991. ISBN 0313277680. 149" — there are a number of ways you could write that. You could write "1991, p. 149" or "1991:149," or "1991 at p. 149" or "1991 at 149." I suppose you could also write "1991, 149." I don't remember whether that's an acceptable style, but it probably is. Really, so long as you're consistent, any of these would be fine. As you've not used p in the shorter refs, probably the best thing would be just to add the number without p after the long ones. The main thing is to put it before the ISBN number, which should come last. SlimVirgin talk|edits 06:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • Years with full dates should be linked.
    • There seems to be some redundancy in the article. It would be nice if you cleaned that up.

    Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 16:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for your comments (and the edit you made to the article)! Regarding redundancy, more specificity would certainly help me correct as needed. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    By the way, any MoS suggestions on this line: He was the 12th of 14 children. I'm inclined to write "twelfth of 14" - is there an established method? --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • WP:MOSNUM - In the body of an article, single-digit whole numbers (from zero to nine) are given as words; numbers of more than one digit are generally rendered as figures, and alternatively as words if they are expressed in one or two words (sixteen, eighty-four, two hundred, but 3.75, 544, 21 million). and Within a context or a list, style should be consistent (either 5 cats and 32 dogs or five cats and thirty-two dogs, not five cats and 32 dogs). I would advise "He was the twelfth of fourteen children." I'll get back to you on redundancy. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 19:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Five cats and 32 dogs would be okay, because five is under ten. It's five cats and 5 dogs that wouldn't be okay. I would say the twelfth of fourteen children or the 12th of 14, but probably the former. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • On redundancy, for example: "Some of the information that Griswold asserted or implied include that Poe was expelled from the University of Virginia and that Poe had tried to seduce the second wife of his guardian John Allan." The vague term some contributes nothing to this sentence. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 19:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I disagree. The term "some of" seems to clearly indicate that the list is only a sampling. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I suppose we're all entitled to our opinions. I tried to remove the redundancy from that specific line, but I would continue to say that "some of" is an incredibly important piece of the sentence. Instead, I removed the more buried word "included". Any other specific spots, feel free to point them out! --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment What SlimVirgin said about staccato writing. Also I wasn't sure about some of the organization within sections. Overall, though impressively well-sourced and thorough, the prose doesn't flow as it could (and should). I've gone through to copy-edit to try and fix some of this (revert as and when you see fit), but feel it could do with another pass or two. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 12:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for taking a look - Just so you know, I took half of your lead and half of mine and spliced them together to make a new lead. Part of it was incorrect (there was no selection criteria that Poe questioned and Griswold was not twice-married but thrice). Most of your edits were quite helpful though in some spots it seems to make the prose harder to read... I'll take a look at answering some of your questions too. I think you made some incorrect assumptions on them. But, again, thanks for diving through this! --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    I left a bunch of questions that were deleted. Let me try again here, then...
    Sorry, I thought they had been answered. I'm going to splice some responses in between your comments and questions.
    OK, just one more pass... --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why say he "left his family" rather than "leave home"? The former sounds rather odd, and more appropriate of a runaway husband or wife than a child who, well, leaves home?
    That particular wording came from the source. I'm not particularly married to either version but I do think leaving his family emphasizes that he lost all contact with them (presumably; I have not found any indication that he stayed in touch with any of his family members).
    I'd have thought that if you're quoting a striking turn of phrase like that, then put it in quotation marks, then. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You'll excuse me for misrepresenting myself; I have not quoted, but paraphrased. Not sure quotes are necessary but leaving home or family... maybe the best solution is to say both? --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • published a critical response that questioned the inclusion of some of the collected poets. In the body of the text, it's suggested that Poe criticized omissions as well as inclusions. NB this certainly seems to be questioning the principle of selection! (And when we do get to the issue in the article itself, it would seem more elegant not to repeat "inclusion" in the phrase "although Poe questioned the inclusion or lack of inclusion of certain authors.")
    Certainly, but use of the term "criteria" implies that selections were based on serious consideration. They weren't. I disagree on re-using "inclusion"; I like the echo effect.
    I guess we'll disagree on the meaning of the word "criteria." But again, there is a contradiction between lead and body. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Contradiction or just different level of detail? This is an easy fix, either way. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    We disagree on the elegance or otherwise of the later formulation, but no problem.
    • I do think the lead should say something about his own poetry and writing.
    The lede should really only emphasize the important points of the article. His own poetry, even in his day, was incredibly irrelevant (even to him) so I'm not sure it's worth the space it would take up. I did add the term "poet" into the first sentence.
    • If he only "attempted" to enroll in the school, surely he could be neither kicked out nor expelled?
    Again, wording comes from Bayless's book. I'm not sure about the specifics any more than you are. My assumption was that he was admitted to the school but didn't have the opportunity to sign up for class.
    Again, then, perhaps quotation marks?
    Again, this is a paraphrase. I hardly think the line is relevant enough to quote in full anyway. I'll try to take all ambiguity and question from this line. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm still not sure about saying he "wandered around" the New York area. Is that the verb used in the source?
    Yes. I think it mirrors that whole "wandering soul" quote from earlier. He was a restless fellow and I think that is being emphasized. It might be worth using a softer term?
    Again, it just strikes me as a little odd. If the oddness comes from the source, then better to be clear about it. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Despite the distance between husband and wife, Griswold's marriage continued. On November 6, 1842, Griswold visited his wife in New York after she had given birth to their their third child, a son. But three days later, after returning to Philadelphia, he was informed that both she and the infant had died.[17] Deeply shocked, Griswold traveled by train alongside her coffin, refusing to leave her side for 30 hours. I asked here both what was meant by "distance" (if simply geographical distance, I think that should be clarified) and about the mechanics of this journey; it's rather confusing that at one point he's in Philadelphia and the next point he's on a train with his wife's coffin for perhaps up to thirty hours. I presume he was taking her to Philadelphia for burial, but do I presume aright?
    I think we're all presuming. I did answer your question that it was a literal distance; I can't imagine a reader would automatically assume the more poetic interpretation in an encyclopedia article. The 30 hours is not a journey. It's just how long he stayed on the train. The ride itself was likely about an hour; she went from outside New York to the Bronx. Again, I'm presuming. The source leaves little further information on this incident.
    You answered the question in the edit summary, but didn't clarify it in the text. I don't see anything poetic about recognizing that there are different sorts of distance. And if we know that she's buried in the Bronx, then it's easier to clarify the matter of the movements of corpse and grieving husband.  ;) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm still not sure I agree that "distance" should be clarified to mean "distance". --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking at this sentence by itself, I would expect the distance to be psychological, not spatial; the implication that being in different states would dissolve a marriage is an anachronism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Now that I've let it sit for a few days, looking at the line again makes me think the confusion is irrelevant as the sentence is really useless and says nothing (which you sort of pointed out). I've removed it. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • What's meant by the notion that he "began" The Opal if he didn't in fact work on it? Did he simply hire an editor to work on it?
    He started up a magazine... I didn't think it was confusing. The next line, in fact, says that it's editor was N. P. Willis.
    I'm confused. How do you start a magazine without working on it? What was his role? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Founder. Is this still not clear? Maybe the word "founded" would be better than "started". --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • As written it's not clear whether or not "his poetry collection Christian Ballads and Other Poems (1844)" refers to his own original work or not: the article uses the term "collection" indiscriminately. More generally, I'd still suggest separating out his work as an editor from his work as a writer (and again, mentioning the his writing also in the lead).
    Poetry collection vs. poetry anthology? The whole section is about Griswold's own work. If confused, the list of Griswold's works at the bottom seems abundantly clear, don't you think? Actually, I'm really having a hard time understanding why you're confused... those few sentences are specifically about Griswold's own works, not just his editorial anthologies... You suggest separating his work as an editor from his work as a writer, when these lines are doing exactly that... How can I separate them further??
    That paragraph includes mention of his his work as an anthologizer (unless I've misread the first two sentences) and editor. The section is about him as "anthologist and critic." The title isn't exactly a giveaway (especially as the other information we have about him doesn't really make it obvious that he'd be one to write "Christian ballads." I'd have thought a word of clarification was in order. All I can give you is my response as a reader, and the points at which I was confused. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Noted. Still seems clear to me. Do you think The Republican Court is clear? --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The notion of Grisworld's "purchasing" Poe's review still sounds odd to me. What would be the mechanics of that?
    He tells Poe write a review and I'll buy it off of you. It's no different from freelance writing today. I think it's a little clearer later that it was probably a bribe. Remember this is during the "puffing" era of literary criticism.
    Actually, it's rather different from freelance writing, in which the publication pays the author. Here it seems that Grisholm is acting as some kind of a middleman: he pays the author then he gets it published in some other journal. He's acting like an agent, but paying rather than being paid. Perhaps that's how things got done in the nineteenth century? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, yes, it was sometimes done that way. Then again, it was probably a bribe, as the text states. I've already edited this line to be a bit clearer. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why repeat the number of pages here?
    I don't know. I suppose it can be knocked off in its second mention. I hadn't noticed it before. Was that a question you asked earlier? You make it seem like these questions are those that I have blown off or disregarded, which I certainly didn't do intentionally. I had tried to answer your questions one edit at a time in the edit summary.
    I included the comment in an edit summary. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another source of animosity between the two men was their competition for the attention of a female poet named Frances Sargent Osgood in the mid to late 1840s. While both she and Poe were still married, the two carried on a public flirtation that resulted in much gossip among the literati. "The two" here need to be clarified. Addendum: Ah, now I get it... while she and Poe were married to other people, right? But I only realized that as I've recently read the article on Poe's wife, and suddenly put two and two together. We can't assume that people who read this article will have read the other one. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I hadn't realized it wasn't clear; it seems very in the face obvious to me. But, then again, I wrote the thing. I'll try to clarify. --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Many thanks. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Hope this helps! --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, thank you! --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I made some minor changes you might want to look at. I'm not particular about these things. Change back if you'd like. The article is well-written and interesting. Very much a Salieri-Mozart thing here. It might possibly be worth a sentence or two somewhere making a little more explicit why his relationship with Poe is of such importance that it's a level two heading. It seems from the bibliography that scholarship about his life is primarily because of his relationship with Poe? If this is the case, I think it's worth saying so somewhere, probably in the lead, "He is primarily remember for his rivalry with..." or whatever exactly would be appropriate. Anyways: well-written, comprehensive, stable, concise lead, well-organized, proper referencing. If you wanted to add a few more images, I think you could. Appropriate length. I'm not a subject expert to make conjectures about neutrality, but I am left with the impression that he was an abrasive personality, mostly resented by the poets who craved the publicity he provided, and without much credibility (today) in his evaluation of good poetry. If that impression accurately reflects modern views of Griswold, I believe the article is neutral. --JayHenry (talk) 04:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! The edits are very helpful. And I think your final assessment is just about prefect. It was interesting doing the research for this because I now think Griswold was more complex than he has been given credit for, considering his difficult marriage/family situation, his health, the fire, etc... I think an earlier version of the lead did say Griswold was mostly known for his rivalry with Poe but it bordered on POV and/or OR. I'll see if I can find a good source I can paraphrase that makes a similar statement as, frankly, it's true (at least in 2008). --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Along with later anthologies such as Prose Writers of America and Female Poets of America, he earned his reputation as a literary dictator whose approval writers sought only begrudgingly. Please recast; I think I know what this is intended to mean, but it doesn't say it: In later anthologies? And the authors don't begrudge, Griswold does.
    • Can we please drown authored? The English is wrote, or for anthologies, compiled. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I got what you were going for. Take a look and let me know what you think. --Midnightdreary (talk) 03:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've tweaked somewhat further.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The article was somewhat copy edited throughout the FAC though I'm sure it's not perfect. Of course, some corrections may have been more subjective than others. If there are a couple commas you think are mandatory that others have not caught, would you add them in or at least point them out? Thanks for pointing out what you already have, by the way! --Midnightdreary (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added one after literary dictator, which I see survives.
    • In the lead He worked as a journalist, editor, and critic in Philadelphia, New York City and elsewhere. is inconsistent: either none after editor or one after City
    • He built up a strong literary reputation in part due to his 1842 collection... needs one after reputation; due is non-defining.
    • Griswold was born on February 13, 1812 in Vermont near Rutland, and raised a strict Calvinist in the hamlet of Benson. needs one after 1812 or Vermont to open the parenthesis closed after Rutland.
    • Griswold attempted to enroll at the Rensselaer School in 1830 but was unable to take any classes after he attempted to play a prank on a professor. needs one after 1830.
    That's five; the problem is endemic. Don't just fix them; copyedit the whole. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I have fixed those ones. If I were able to catch the other errors myself, I would have caught them by now. When you've seen this article as much as I have, there's a slight haze that encompasses the whole thing. If you see any other problems, feel free to lend a hand or let me know! --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I know, it's very hard to copyedit your own prose; but try having another look anyway. This is not an oppose, but I don't think I can support unless someone looks through the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Understandable. I did what I could, just now and a little earlier this morning. Not sure it's perfect but it might be better. --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments by Lar (this article was brought to my attention by my wife, since some of "her ladies" are linked from it, it's far from my normal area of interest :) )
      • There is a potential sequence problem around George C. Foster: Griswold attempted to enroll at the Rensselaer School in 1830, but was unable to take any classes after he attempted to play a prank on a professor.[8] He moved to Albany, New York to live with a 22-year-old flute-playing journalist named George C. Foster, a writer best known for his work New-York by Gas-Light.[4] Griswold lived with Foster until he was 17, and the two may have had a romantic relationship.[7] When Griswold moved away, Foster wrote to him begging him to return, signing his letter "come to me if you love me".[9] 1830-1812 == 18 so he was either 17 or 18 when he tried to enroll. But he lived with Foster "until he was 17" so that suggests there may be a sequencing problem there, or maybe the order is right, but the reader might be left confused. Do references support what months these things occurred in? Use of months might clarify the ambiguity. I see you ordered this in a different order but is that the order the sources gave? Struck though since I think it's sorted.
      • In 1843 Griswold founded The Opal, an annual gift book that collected essays, stories, and poetry what is a gift book? This needs linking or explication I think. Elsewhere it seems to be referred to as a magazine.
        • I may be confused here with another publication by the same name, which was a magazine. I expect E to help clarify this, she just rang me about it. :) As for Gift Book == Coffee Table Book, why not set up a redirect from GB to CTB and if someone thinks they are different, they can put an article at GB explicating that (rather than just linking directly to CTB from here)
      Actually, now I'm tempted to start an article on gift book, if I can find some good sources! --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Heh, wouldn't be the first time. Might be hard to find sources that define/describe the class, because the two words are so common. You might want to also define this meaning even though it's not what is meant. (I could see it as a likely search term) I am assuming this is another example of the term as you intend. ++Lar: t/c 15:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      I see you and E have started working on The Opal (annual) which sorts this objection, whether or not you end up doing Gift book ++Lar: t/c 15:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • He had by now earned the nickname "Grand Turk", Why? If this nickname is significant it might be good to explain how he got it and why, assuming sources exist. If it's not significant, why mention it?
        • Maybe source that people called him that and let the reader draw the conclusion?
    Let me see if I can go back to the source and do that. --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I found a lot of places that reference it. Google books won't let me look inside Bayless, but check page 137 if you have it, that text apparently refers to some of the nicknames he got. ++Lar: t/c 20:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Jewish woman named Charlotte Myers, woman named Harriet McCrillis, "woman named" seems awkward wording to me. Why not say Griswold married Charlotte Myers, who was Jewish. and Griswold pursued Harriet McCrillis? Mdreary sorted this out...
      An interesting article, I hope to support it shortly. ++Lar: t/c 14:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • One new worry... it seems you use Bayless a lot. That's the only ref that is ABOUT Griswold, the others are about other folk or topics, but is this overreliance? ++Lar: t/c 15:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I thought about that myself but I think it's pretty solid. And just because a source is about Poe doesn't mean it's not a good reference for Griswold material. As I've told people, you can't talk about Poe without Griswold and vice-versa; their biographies are really one intertwining story. --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for taking a look! I hadn't noticed the chronology problem but it's now fixed, as are the "woman named" lines (and one more, actually). As far as "Grand Turk", it's relevant because, well, people did call him that quite a bit. I think the significance is mostly sarcastic, making fun of his own elevation of self... but that's just my opinion and I have no source to support it. As far as The Opal, I'm curious as to where you saw it referred to as a magazine. Gift books, I suppose, were the equivalent of today's coffee table book: expensive, showy, with little significant content. To me, it's a very common term so I hadn't realized it needed explanation. I don't want to link to coffee table book because that's my own assessment... what do you think? --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    revisions and strikes in response. ++Lar: t/c 15:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    More strikes. I think there still are issues that need attention but it's getting closer. Tony's right, a good copyedit by fresh eyes might be very advisable. Perhaps ping the League of Copyeditors to see if they can squeeze it in? ++Lar: t/c 15:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Advice requested It suddenly occurred to me that most bio articles on reverends on Wikipedia start with "Rev." in the first line. Does anyone think it would be necessary to start this page as Rev. Rufus Wilmot Griswold, despite it not being his primary point of interest? It seems almost like a technicality and therefore not as important as in other bios. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I wouldn't; I agree that it would be misleading. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 21:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    If it was not his primary vocation, as in this case, I would leave it out of the lede. It could be mentioned that he was entitled to the title somewhere though... ++Lar: t/c 15:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments—The whole of the text could do with a polish: I'm finding glitches like these in just a sample portion of the article:

    • "the best examples in American poetry"—"of" rather than "in"?
    • "Griswold succeeded Poe as editor of Graham's Magazine at a higher salary than Poe"—false comparison: "Poe's".
    • English speakers should know what an obituary is: why is it linked? Same for "copyright". And "flute" ... really, these are common terms.
    • "He worked various editing jobs in the New York area."—Does one work a job? TONY (talk) 13:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Though I for one can easily see "working a job" being acceptable, I see your point, Tony. I wonder, since you are so good at picking up these things, if you would be willing to take a quick run-through and see what you can catch? I'll fix these ones you just pointed out myself. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    By the way, not to defy you or anything, but I kept one of the links for copyright. It seems like a complicated enough concept that readers could benefit from viewing that article, if they so choose. I definitely agree with you on flute and about 99% agree about obituary. :) --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for asking, but I usually avoid copy-editing myself. Why? (1) I can have more influence over standards by reviewing instead, and there's constant pressure on me to review more (I hardly touch FAR, by the way). (2) Copy-editing is too much like my RL job. Please find a collaborator or two who are in the field and wouldn't mind assisting with the c-e. TONY (talk) 06:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough, and thanks anyway. I'll see who I can find to lend a hand with a good, solid copy edit. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. This is an excellent article. I saw a few minor things that should be addressed.
      • "but was unable to take any classes after he attempted to play a prank on a professor" - was he hurt in the prank, was the professor hurt and unable to teach, or was Griswold expelled because of it?
      • quotes of under 4 lines should not be offset, but should be inline (WP:MOSQUOTE) (see reputation and influence)
      • Should put a citation immediately after "Griswold claimed that "among the last requests of Mr. Poe" was that he becomes his literary executor "for the benefit of his family". ", even if it is coveed after the next sentence (just in case someone slips in another sentence from a different source)

    Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for your thoughts; I've made these recommended changes. I wish I could find more info on this prank but, for now, I think the current line satisfies your confusion. Thanks again. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:47, 30 June 2008 [23].

    Strapping Young Lad

    previous FAC (18:14, 29 April 2008)


    Self-nominator Well, here goes nothing. I did my best to find all the necessary references, and improve the article as a whole. Gocsa (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, I am satisfied with the prose carried over from the previous nom. Additionally, I was one of the editors who nitpicked over the sources until Gocsa was about to start throwing tomatoes at me, and I'm satisfied with them as well. I helped look up some more reliable sources and I believe anything questionable has been sourced to a reliable source. There are a few borderline sources but they are not backing up anything major so I'm willing to include them on the "reliable" side of the border. I encourage editors who oppose based on sources to make it actionable by calling out which specific sources you are questioning. I will work with Gocsa to find alternate sources as appropriate. --Laser brain (talk) 23:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • My only problem, as nominator:), is ref2, the radio transcript from the fan site, is it possible to cite it using Template:Cite episode? I only have the month, and year of the interview, the name of the programme, the radio, and the interviewer, maybe this is enough. Gocsa (talk) 13:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 01:10, 15 April 2008.

    Maynard James Keenan

    I'm nominating this article for featured article on behalf of Wikiproject Tool. Lara❤Love 17:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I just saw on the links tool that the first reference, Spin Magazine's "iPuscifer" article is an unaccessible article now. I've sent them a message, as I can't seem to find the page in archive. The only proof it existed that I can find is here. So just know that I'm working on it. Lara❤Love 17:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Lara❤Love 06:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Please close and archive the peer review; articles can't be listed at both places simultaneously. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Done. Lara❤Love 19:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    1. Hm.. http://toolshed.down.net/news/ is this a reliable source?
    2. Am I correct in assuming that http://www.avclub.com/content/home is connected to the Onion?
    3. What makes this http://www.seaoftranquility.org/index.php a reliable source or noteworthy for a review?
    4. http://www.metal-observer.com/home.php?lid=1 is this site an online site for a magazine?
    5. http://www.rockonthenet.com/ is being used for Grammy Awards. Why not link to the Grammy Awards site itself?
    6. Is this http://www.nyrock.com/ a reliable source?
    7. http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=89397 gives me a dreaded Microsoft OLE DB Provider error
    8. What makes this http://www.toolband.com/news/letter/2006_07.php a reliable source?
    9. What makes this http://web.archive.org/web/20061017011856/http://www.fadetoblack.com/interviews/billhicks/13.html a reliable source?
    10. http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?artist=&show=&member=3&entry=6933 what makes this a reliable source?
    Tool linkie thing checks out (except for the abovementioned problem) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    1. It's the official fan site, approved for use in the Featured Article Tool (band).
    2. Yes, it is connected to The Onion, however:
    So the stuff you write is all fake, like The Onion's "news," right?
    No. Not even a little. The A.V. Club features real interviews, reviews, and other entertainment-related articles.[24]
    3. I believe it is a reliable source per [25]
    4. It's a webzine with a paid staff, including their reviewers.
    5. Updated.
    6. Yes. And it's used in a plethora of articles including Godsmack, Metallica, The Smashing Pumpkins, Audioslave, Tool (band), One Hot Minute, Niandra Lades and Usually Just a T-Shirt, and Kid A, all of which are featured articles.
    7. I don't know what that means. It loads for me. This one has been removed.
    8. That's the band's official website.
    9. It's a webzine with a paid staff. Kevin Booth, the interviewer, recorded Bill Hick's Arizona Bay CD with the comedian.
    10. It references that Maynard did vocals on a King Crimson track. Robert Fripp is the guitarist for King Crimson. That is his official website.
    Hope that clears all up. :) Lara❤Love 02:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've left a few for other reviewers to decide on their own, in cases that I don't see as cut and dried. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough, but for number 6, considering it's used in a couple dozen articles including several FAs, I don't see what the issue could be with that one. Lara❤Love 23:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The unstruck concerns about reliable sources need specific answers per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:SELFPUB; "used in another featured article" is not a relevant argument, this article is under review, and what may have gotten by on another article isn't pertinent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've spent a good portion of today looking over many sources sent to me by another editor (Sorry for the delay. I had the stomach flu this weekend so I wasn't up to doing it until now :X). I'll be replacing many and hopefully expanding a bit. As far as the NY Rock source, I'm confused. It didn't get by in one article, but eight. I can't see what the issue with that source is and I can't replace it as it is a source for a quote from an editorial interview. Lara❤Love 21:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, I removed #3. For #5, I believe WP:SPS applies, specifically, Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. The author previously worked for a published paper magazine on music. They also host a live radio show in Austria. And, it's sourcing an opinion, not a fact. i still don't see the issue with #6, and it's sourcing an interview, which is straight from Maynard. I believe #9 falls under the same as #5, as the interviewer worked with Bill Hicks on his CD, thus he would be an expert. Lara❤Love 02:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't #5 resolved? That was the one for the grammy awards, which when I looked, you had replaced with a cite from the grammy awards site. So I'm lost.... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    To recap, I think I'm still concerned about 4, 6, 9. I'll probably have to go through again when we're over, it's been a bit! Ealdgyth - Talk 02:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I meant 9, not 5. My bad. For 4 and 9, considering what they source, I believe they are exceptions to RS because they're no sourcing claim or fact. It's opinion and an interview quote. You can't question an opinion and I don't think you're challenging that the interview actually took place. And I have to stand by 6 for the same reason. I can't put my head around what the issue with an interview from a site that's sourced in eight Featured Articles is. Lara❤Love 19:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    What other featured articles use isn't relevant because 1) articles change and 2) we don't know what kind of review they got. One reason an interview that is not from a reliable source can be questioned is, how do we know the interview even happened or is presented accurately, as sample questions? I can put up a website claiming I interviewed the queen of sheba. Another reason it matters is that something that 1) wasn't published by a reliable source and 2) isn't even available on the internet today (is only in the internetarchive) may not be notable or worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I've looked at ths specific sources now; it took a while for the internet archive to load. For example: unless I'm misunderstanding ... we have statements being made in a BLP from an interview by a friend talking about another third party (Keenan, Booth and Hiatt), that is on a personal website that's no longer available, but is now accessed via the internet archive, and was hearsay even when it was available on a non-RS. Why would we include third-party information from a non-RS in a BLP? If I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading there, pls explain; I offer this as an example of why we don't usually include this sort of info in an encyclopedia, and why we should stick to reliable, notable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, to clear up another issue about WP:SELFPUB: you said, " ... as the interviewer worked with Bill Hicks on his CD, thus he would be an expert." Working with someone doesn't make the author an expert per Wikipedia's policy on self-published sources. Wiki's policy is very clear on how we define an "expert" and when we should use these sources, particularly in BLPs:

    Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable.

    Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

    Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.

    SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    What it sourced was an opinion made by someone who worked closely with Bill Hicks in the comedy industry, an expert in the field, as Bill Hicks was not the extent of his career. I don't think BLP covers such an opinion of "inspiring comedy" from someone who works in that industry, regardless, I've removed it. #4 falls under the exceptions as the author previously worked as a writer for a print magazine in the music industry. It sources a review of lyrics, not Keenan, so I don't think that falls under BLP either. And #6; just so I'm clear, you're challenging that the interview took place and stating that this source needs to be removed from the current eight FAs it's used in along with another 19 non-FAs? You don't believe Keenan actually stated "Everything we release with Tool is inspired by our music. It doesn't matter if it is a video or if it's lyrics. The lyrics for "Schism" are nothing more than my interpretation of the music." in an interview with this site? Lara❤Love 05:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I just took a look again at the NYRock link cited in The Smashing Pumpkins since I'm the one that brought that to FA status a year ago. In both that article and this, quotes from original interviews conducted by the staff with the subjects mentioned are being cited. In those contexts, it's a reliable source for the purposes of these articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    *Comment 'ello, 'ello, 'ello...what's this undesirable doing at FAC then? (in best London Bobby voice)...better give it the once over then.... Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • ...in 1988 to work in interior design.. - was musing on this I think "to pursue a career in interior design is more accurate (?) rather than merely working.
      • Good fix. Thanks. :)
    • James Keenan was born in Ravenna, Ohio on April 17, 1964, the only child of Baptist parents. When his parents divorced in 1973, his father, Michael Loren Keenan, a high school teacher, moved to Michigan and for the next 12 years, Keenan would only see him about once per year. - the 2nd sentence has 5 commas, which is a tad excessive. Why not place both parents' names and dad's occupation in the first sentence, this way lengthening the rather abrupt first sentence and improving flow of the 2nd and 3rd sentences.
      • I did a reword. Let me know if it needs further tweaking.
    • ''His mother, Judith Marie, remarried, bringing Keenan into a step-family of intolerance and suffering. -this is a difficult one. I understand information is very limited as the subject has declined to elaborate. It occurred to me that all we have is his word, so the statement might have to be paraphrased with Keenan reported/disclosed that (new family etc.)
      • I reworded, quoting part of the source.
    • to disillusionment with his colleagues' points of view - ahaa, we've all been on WP too long. Maybe 'political beliefs/ personal beliefs/ values' or some other term is better than POV.
      • The source reads:
        He even attended West Point, before dropping out in disillusionment over his fellow students.
        "Some of those people, who would end up being world leaders, had horrible points of view," he says.
        I get it - it's tricky. I'll think about it. The more I think about it, the more I feel 'values' fits it fine. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "undetected" - must say I find the quotes disruptive to flow. I'd just remove them. If worried that one adjective could be construed as plagiarism I am sure there are some others.
      • Removed quotes.
    • After the release of the album, Tool began a prolonged legal battle with their label Volcano Records (formerly Zoo Records). - sorta leaves me hanging. What was the legal battle over? Was Keenan the ringleader in it?
      • I expanded a bit. It's in the Tool article and seemed unnecessary to go into detail, but you're right that something needs to be eluded alluded to. I'll look at it again after some sleep and possibly add a bit more. Lara❤Love 07:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    *Tool does not print lyrics for any releases as they believe most people "don't get it" and it is not a priority of the band that they do. - the last bit do 'get it' or do 'print lyrics'? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    (outdent) ok, it is here, question is, does the term as applied to people appear in a recognised dictionary? If so, I think tweaking the wiktionary entry and linking is the way to go. I'm going back to bed as its 5 am and I couldn't sleep and made the stupid mistake of turning the computer on...8P Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • [26] - "Access Denied"
    • :I've addressed this above. I've messaged Spin, I'm also looking into finding the print information to replace the web version. Alternatively, I've been sent some additional references which I haven't had time to look through, but today will be good for that.
      Found it.
    • "Although originally from Ohio, Keenan spent his high school years in Michigan and, after serving in the Army in the early 1980s, he attended Kendall College of Art and Design in Grand Rapids, Michigan." - get rid of awkward phrasing and redundancy.
      Fixed, I think.
    • "and for the next 12 years Keenan would only see him about once a year." - "and Keenan would only see him about once a year for the next 12 years."
      Done.
    • Per WP:LEAD, the lead should be three to four paragraphs.
      It's suggested. We had three paragraphs at one point, but it was condensed to two considering the amount of information being included. It was scraggly looking at 3.
    • "After moving to Los Angeles, Keenan met Adam Jones, who had heard Keenan singing on a demo in college and suggested that they form a band." - awkward phrasing; it's hard to tell who suggested it. Divide it into two sentences if need be.
      I tried two sentences, but I couldn't get a good wording from it. So I tweaked a bit. Hopefully that's better.
    • "Tool was formed. Fronted by Keenan, the eventual lineup included guitarist Jones, Keenan's neighbor Danny Carey as drummer, and bassist Paul D'Amour, who would later be replaced by Justin Chancellor." - consistency of assignments to instruments. Either do all of them as [instrument]ist X or X as [instrument]ist.
      Done.

    I'm a bit tired right now; I'll check some more of the article later. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 21:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Addressed some. I'll be back. Lara❤Love 01:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Lara❤Love 02:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Issues resolved. Karanacs (talk) 16:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • In the first paragraph of early life, it says Keenan only says his father once a year for the next 12 years (that would be until 1985, or he was 23). Later in that paragraph, it said that when Keenan was 13 he went to live with his father...that would be about 1977.
      • Any idea why he was fired from his pet store design job?
        • No. I searched through dozens of interviews and bios for this. I couldn't find an answer as to why, besides a copyrighted YouTube video that I can't link to that suggests he was a poor worker, but he could have been joking, so wholly unreliable. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • If there is a link between the fake named 2001 album and their criticism of file-sharing networks, it needs to be made more clear in the article.
        • No apparent link, although I am not sure of the author's intentions. I have moved the filesharing info to the preceding paragraph according to chronology. Skomorokh
      • Per wP:MOSQUOTE, quotations of fewer than 4 lines should not be offset.
        • The only thing MOSQUOTE says about four lines is "A long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) is formatted as a block quotation..." There is no use of {{bquote}} in this article, and only one use of {{quote}}, which is for a five sentence quote in the A Perfect Circle sentence. Could you please clarify? Skomorokh
      • ""Puscifer" (pictured to the right)." -> no picture
      • Per WP:ELLIPSES, there should be a space, then ..., then another space
  • Comments
    • very clunky sentence " realization that he would not go through West Point undetected for his dissidence"
      • I don't know that this really belongs in the article "This was not the first time Keenan and Love were in a media story together; Love once referred to Keenan as a "media whore" to which he responded, "Isn't that great? I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love." -> it is very trivia
        • It gives important context to the "Free Frances Bean" incident. Without that line, the reader would not properly understand why Keenan undertook the campaign. Skomorokh
      • The April Fool's Day prank seems more trivia-y than encyclopedic.
      • " to obscure his identity " How has he obscured his identity? Yes, he wears costumes on stage, but people know his name and apparently lots of information about him. Maybe this needs a less strong word?
        • This is from the sources, his own explanation. It was to prevent people from recognizing him in public. I believe the exact example was that he wanted to be able to walk into a 7-11 with his son and not be hassled by fans. He didn't want his fame to affect his son. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Without more context, this doesn't really belong "Amos had often referred to Keenan as an unofficial brother"

    Karanacs (talk) 21:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comments There are some unclear sentences and phrases.
      • This one: A primary purpose of Keenan's lyrics for Tool involves a personal connection with the listener on a level in which people are striving for self-identity, understanding and reflection. I have read five times but I still don't understand it.
        • I piped some links. Hopefully that helps. It basically means that he writes lyrics that encourage the listener to search within themselves. They are "thinking-man's lyrics".
          • It isn't the words that I do not understand, is is the sentence. The one you have written here, (above), is much better. GrahamColmTalk 07:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I tweaked it to sort of include my explanation while holding a more encyclopedic tone.
      • And this .....and the realization that he would not go through West Point undetected for his dissidence.
      • He dropped out of West Point because he realized that his dissidence would be noticeable.
        • Moniker - doesn't sound very encyclopedic.
        • I changed it to name.
      • Is this US English ....he ran on the cross country running team? Ran with or ran for?
        • In US English, it's ran on.
      • Pulled by - again not an encyclopedic word, how about withdrawn.
        • Done.
      • Lastly , I think you will find that the Lead does not need the also.
        • Removed.
    • GrahamColmTalk 17:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:50, 16 April 2008.

    Guitar Hero (video game)

    Self-Nomination - Article was in decent shape before (compared to Guitar Hero II and Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock, both already FAsGAs I helped with), its been polished up on references and other details to complete it to a comparable quality as the other games in the series and other FAs I've helped on. I've skipped the GA since I knew this article should eventually qualify as an FA, and with GA overloaded right now, have brought it straight to FAC. MASEM 17:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose Needs to be expanded. And even though GA is is busy, perhaps because of its renown, it can speed up a bit faster. --Sunsetsunrise (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Expanded how? I will point that Guitar Hero (series) covers the overall aspects of the series. --MASEM 20:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand. So I suppose that will be most of it. --Sunsetsunrise (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not going to be reviewing this article, but I've noticed that ref 28 leads to the website but not the actual article, so the ref is useless. I checked after being unsure of the grammatical correctness of a "cultural phenomena". Please check all sources. Ashnard Talk Contribs 20:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, that was a moved link. The rest all report as ok with the link checker tool (the NYTimes one has a weird redirect sequence but the URL gets you to the article, so no idea what's going on there). --MASEM 20:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Leaning Support, but haven't done a close evaluation yet. I'm actually inclined to believe that this is a most appropriate size for an article about a single video game. On first glance I thought the article needed expansion, but the things I would have suggested for expansion were indeed covered in the Guitar Hero (series) article, and by covering these matters in a central article, it allows GH II, and III to be kept to reasonable lengths as well. --JayHenry (talk) 00:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, GH was a hit, but GH2 is really what generated the huge support for the series. If there's any need to bring in more from the GH(series) page or seealso to it, please say so. --MASEM 13:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Okay, some small niggles:

    • In the lead, I wonder if "controller" is better than peripheral? Not sure if peripheral is common terminology outside of video games, whereas controller I think is acceptable to all?
    • the meaning of "billion-dollar Guitar Hero franchise is unclear. Worth a billion? A billion in sales? A billion in profits? Three distinct possibilities.
    • In Guitar Hero Three you can also activate star power with the select button on the guitar peripheral. Not in this one?
      • It's a detail in the series article that that section references.
    • "affect the behavior of the Rock Meter in a positive manner." Sort of awkward. Just "increase the level on the Rock Meter?"
    • In describing career mode it says "Players can choose their on-stage character, their guitar of choice, and the venue in which they wish to play; these elements have no effect on gameplay but affect the visuals during the performance." Is this accurate? I don't believe that you can pick the venue in career mode. Only in quickplay, right?
      • Technically also after you've cleared that arena in career you can go back and play an unlocked song in it, but that's too difficult to state easily.
    • I'm not sure what this means "the software... allowed them to reauthor a song".
    • Did IGN really say "the mini SG makes is what makes Guitar Hero, rather than what breaks it"? Makes twice?
      • Yes, yes they did (I just checked) I'm going edit this to remove the extra bits.

    I support. Article is short but to the point, and I don't think articles on relatively simple video games need to be lengthy. --JayHenry (talk) 03:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support I think the article is just the right size- the only reason most vg articles are longer is due to the plot section, which this game is lacking. There are a couple of redlinks that need to be created or delinked, though. --PresN (talk) 04:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Ooh, almost missed it- I don't like the way you started off the development section. Once sentence para/self-stating ref seems...unencyclopedic. There's got to be a better way to say that the details came from Ron Kay than to say... that the details came from an interview with Ron Kay. I'm not going to bother to strike my support, but fix it anyway. --PresN (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. --MASEM 05:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments
    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 22:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    All other links checked out fine with the tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Points addressed --MASEM 20:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I"ll assume that the borked site will return, everything fixed! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Just in case this sourcing is a problem, I've added a secondary source that lists the awards; the IAA site is still borked. --MASEM 21:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And the site is back to normal, no more borked link. --MASEM 22:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Waiting on improvements. The prose is not uniformly professional, as required, and there are MOS breaches.

    • MOS requires the final punctuation of quotations begun within WP sentences to be after the closing quotations marks: and started with "super-basic Pong-style graphics" for the game display; through this, they found that "the controller really was the kind of magic sauce for what we wanted to do." There are other examples, too.
    • "The team did not have any initial idea ..."—The team had no idea initially?
    • "Harmonix continually had to modify the track list as certain songs were cleared or removed based on licensing issues, balancing difficulty and popularity of the track list, which continued concurrent with the development of the game engine and up nearly to the shipping date." Cumbersome sentence, and you have to disambiguate "as" in reverse.
    • Caption: "The controller that was packaged with the game, an approximately 3/4 scale reproduction of a Gibson SG."—It's just a nominal group and thus there should be no period at the end. See MOS. Tony (talk) 09:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've gone through and tried to correct some additional longer and awkward sentences in addition to the above. I will note some quotes are full sentence quotes that, per MOS, should include the trailing period inside the quote, but I've gone through to move the period on partial quotes outside of the quote. --MASEM 13:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Most FA videogame articles have the gameplay before development. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is this necessarily a problem? The order feels better with dev before gameplay, but its not like it can be changed around without any work. --MASEM 20:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    • I agree with Fuchs that gameplay should go before development. Personally, the order feels better the other way around...
    • Newspaper publishers in references (NYTimes etc.) need to in italics (changing publisher= to work= in cite web does the trick here)
    • "This article is about the 2005 video game. For the series, see Guitar Hero (series)." - I don't think this is necessary; unlikely to type "GH (VG)" in the search box when looking for the series (more likely to type "GH", which redirects to the series).
      • Likely from when there wasn't a disamb for "Guitar Hero", gone now.
    • "The gameplay is very similar to the GuitarFreaks" - "the" is unnecessary
    • "player uses the guitar controller to hit musical notes as they scroll towards the player on screen." - the second use of "the player" could be avoided...perhaps "player uses the guitar controller to hit musicl notes as they scroll towards the top of the screen." (I think that's what the GH (series) article, which I reviewed the other day, uses)
    • Ref 1 confuses me...it doesn't seem to have an article title, and seems to have two authors (but not placed alongside each other...)...enlighten me please :)
    • "The controller initially has pressure-sensitive fret buttons" - keep paste tense
    • "to provide a little more depth to the game — some replay value" - em dashes shouldn't be spaced
      • This is a quote from a source - should we modify it to fit WP's MOS?
      • Also, that area quoted above talking about Star Power is a good example of why gameplay should come before development...
    • "The game was to focus mostly on hard rock songs" - wlink hard rock, and also the title of the Ramones song, if there's an article on it
    • A few redlinks - notable?
      • With the Drist addition below, that's three redlinks, but they are redlinks of businesses or groups. Mind you, it would be really simple to create a stub page for them, but when I did a previous FA that had a redlinked company name, it was passed ok.
    • "Marcus Henderson of the band Drist provided many of the lead guitar tracks for the covers" - again, wlink Drist
    • "In the case of Black Sabbath'" - need an s after the apostrophe
    • See also link in Gameplay section should point to Guitar Hero (series)#Gameplay
    • "Cowboys From Hell by Pantera" - missing quotation marks around song
      • While the song's in the game, to keep down the personal bias, the examples of the songs in the game is based on a list in that cited ref; however, people do manage to add their personal favorites here, and that's how that Pantera song got in there without quotes. It has been removed.
    • "Many reviews praised the game's learning curve and difficulty approach" - in what way? Is there a long or short learning curve, is the game easy or hard, etc.?
      • Added details here.
    • "Since then, the game has sold nearly 1.5 million copies through September 2007" - typical question - any more updated figures? Check the list of best selling video games (I think that's the title...), that one is kept up to date really well and should have the most recent figures
      • Adds another 30k to the value.
    • "Harmonix has since left the development of the series due to being acquired by MTV" - this needs a ref (the fact that they did it because of MTV)
      • Added refs for this.
    • Do refs 42 and 43 have publication dates? (date=)
      • Year dates, but not exact; added anyway.

    Rock on. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose Mostly prose issues; the article assumes far too much knowledge on the part of the reader, and is confusing to those unfamiliar with these types of games. Some examples:
      • Lead should be expanded to include a summary of its development.
      • "The gameplay is very similar..."
      • "the player uses the guitar controller to hit musical notes as they scroll towards the bottom of the screen." If you can, think about this from the perspective of the reader that is unfamiliar with the game. What image does "hit musical notes..." convey? Much better would be a more literal description of the gameplay (something like "hit buttons on the controller...").
      • "spanning five decades of rock, from the 1960s to current music" Avoid terms that will become dated, such as "current", which is imprecise anyway.
      • "more than one billion dollars in sales" -> US$1 billion?
      • "The gameplay is similar to other music and rhythm video games, in that the player must play scrolling notes to complete a song." Similar problem here. If a reader is unfamiliar with this genre, this description is not helpful. The reader is left wondering what "scrolling notes" are and how exactly to "play" them.
      • "The guitar peripheral works by pressing the fret buttons simultaneously with the strum bar, while on the standard controller one simply presses the corresponding button." Not a single link to explain any of the terminology. "the corresponding button"?
      • Spot the logical break in the first paragraph of Gameplay. It would work much better as two paragraphs.
      • "The player is awarded points for correctly hitting notes, chords, and sustains, and gains multiplier bonuses for consecutively playing notes correctly." Again, no links to help readers unfamiliar with some of the terminology. There's a less awkward way of phrasing "consecutively playing notes correctly".
      • "using the whammy bar during sustains" And the "whammy bar" is...? I see it's linked far down; it should be linked on first mention.
      • "pressing another button on a standard controller" "Another" implies there was some other button mentioned previously; this does not seem to be the case.
      • "play across the other game modes" I'm not sure "across" is the best preposition here.
      • "Players can choose their on-stage character and their guitar of choice." Spot the redundancy.
      • "Quick Play mode is a simpler method of playing songs, as it allows the player to select a track" "As" does not work as a connector here. Better to break this into two sentences. Is it really a "simpler method of playing songs"?
      • "the player is given a score and a rating based on five stars" Is this only for Quick Play mode?
      • "Two fret boards..." No description of "fret boards" earlier, so the less knowledgeable reader is left confused.
      • "The game supports toggling..." Why is this a one sentence paragraph?
      • I'm stopping here with my specific comments, but I've skimmed the rest of the article, which needs a copy-edit as well. BuddingJournalist 22:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • All above issues are fixed and I tried to identify similar ones later one, though once the terms are wikilinked, that sets them for the article, so... --MASEM 04:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • "All above issues are fixed". Not exactly. And, like I indicated above, the entire article needs a copyedit for prose issues, so please do so. I should not be able to skim through and easily spot grammatical glitches, punctuation errors, awkward phrasing, etc. in an FA-quality article. Once the whole article has been copyedited, then feel free to bring me back here for a second look. BuddingJournalist 06:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have asked someone else who hasn't had major involvement with the article to check the prose as I am not seeing the issues (not yet done yet, just to note here). --MASEM 00:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - LAck of sources. I added to ref tags both were simply deleted. Clearly it is not possible to reference these facts, so the editor simply removes them. --SSman07 (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: Article is comprehensive, well-written, and adequately sourced. I see nothing lacking and no outstanding issues that prevent this from achieving FA status. Good job guys. -- Noj r (talk) 03:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Could only find problems with some of the prose. I've given it a copyedit to fix problems I've spotted - feel free to revert if you're not happy with the changes.--Gazimoff (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was promoted 00:34, 18 April 2008.

    Emery Molyneux

    Self-nominator. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 02:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Items struck by karanacs 14:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
      • This sentence in the lead doesn't make sense to me: The globes were the first to be made so they were unaffected by the humidity at sea, and came into very general use on ships. - what about them being the first to be made was relevant to humidity at seas?
        • Fixed: I've rephrased the sentence. According to one of the sources I consulted (Markham), Molyneux's globes were the first globes made in such a way that they were not affected by humidity at sea.
      • Is there any information about his life before 1557?
        • Comment: Unfortunately not, based on the sources I consulted. Don't forget we're talking about someone who lived during the 16th century.
      • Is there a different between being "the maker of the first terrestrial and celestial globes in England" and "the first English globe-maker"? To me, these seem to be the same thing
        • Comment: I believe what the sources mean is that Molyneux was the first person to make globes in England (i.e., no one else had done so; all previous globes in England were made elsewhere and imported into England), and was also the first Englishman to make globes (none of the previous globemakers who had made globes abroad were English).
      • Did he give Thomas Harriot a pilot, a ruttier, or a globe? Not clear from the sentence.
        • Fixed: According to Wallis (1951), it was a ruttier.
      • When did he start making globes, how did he learn to make globes, which did he started making first (terrest. or celest.)? How many globes did he make and how quickly did he work? Did he take orders and then create a globe for that person or did he create a bunch and sell them in a store or other method?
        • Comment: According to the available sources, none of this information is known.
      • Did Molyneux speak Spanish? It seems odd to me that an English globe-maker would put Spanish text on a globe, esp. during thie time period, when England was often at war (or feared war) with Spain.
        • Comment: None of the sources consulted state what languages Molyneux personally knew, but there are legends on the terrestrial globe in English, Spanish and Latin. I suppose it's possible that Molyneux had help from some of his friends who were explorers and mathematicians. We know, for instance, that mathematician Edward Wright helped Molyneux translate some of the legends into Latin, so perhaps Molyneux wasn't that familiar with the language.
      • If the dates of Thomas Blundeville's life are that uncertain it might be wise to exclude them from this article
        • Comment: Sure, I can do that if you think that would improve the article. Basically, what I did was to insert into the article (approximate) birth and death dates (obtained from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography) of individuals that did not yet have Wikipedia articles about them.
      • Last paragraph of Terrest. globe section doesn't flow well either. I'd say the sentence that begins "thus, it appears" should be reworded and go before the description of the phrasing on the globe.
        • Comment: Could you please identify which paragraph(s) you are referring to when you speak of the "description of the phrasing of the globe"?
      • Legacy subheadings shouldn't be "on ..." but just the word ("Culture", etc)
        • Fixed.
      • What are "ruttiers and pilots"?
      • The first paragraph of Terrest. globes section does not flow well and is confusing.
        • Comment: Could you be more specific?
          • I think it is poor flow. It reads like this:
    a) He got information for his maps from writings and interviews with explorers (sentence 1)
    b) Quote in Spanish from one of his globes.
    c) English translation of quote
    d) two sentences talking about the expedition referenced in the quote
    e) one sentence that, at the very end, mentions how Molyneux would have known to write the quote.

    To me, the most important information here is a) and d). The original Spanish would likely do better as a footnote. Regardless, going straight from a description of his research to a quote from one of his final products is poor flow - the reader feels that something is missing. Karanacs (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Fixed. — JackLee 00:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Image captions shouldn't end with a period unless they are full sentences.
      • The further reading section needs work. This should be a list of works that is easily accessible to a reader wanting more information. Editions published in the 1500s don't really qualify for that. Please list only the newest editions of those books, with a note that it is a reprinting of a book originally published in 15xx. There really should never need to be notes for the Further reading section; it might instead be wise to create an article for the books that need more explanation and just wikilink to it.
        • Fixed: I think it's useful to have a section listing the 16th-century works that were written about Molyneux's globes. I've moved these books out of "Further reading" as you suggest into a separate section. This also solves the problem of the "Further reading" section having notes.
  • Neutral. Karanacs (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • *Oppose. I think this is an interesting topic, but the article needs work to reach the FA criteria. The organization and focus of the article needs work, and once that has been revamped a bit, it needs to be carefully reread for clarity.

      • I feel like the article is focused more on the globes than on the man, and since this is a biography that should not be the case. I think your information overall is useful and should remain in the article, but it might need to be organized or worded differently to make it more focused on Molyneux. For example, the first section title, "Making of the globes" is not person-focused ("Globe maker" is one alternative).
        • Fixed: I considered creating two articles, one about Molyneux, another about his globes, but the problem is that so little is known about the man himself that much of the information would end up being duplicated. For example, the only part of the current article that would probably not be in an article on the globes would be Molyneux's final years in Amsterdam where he turned to the making of ordnance.
          • The "Construction" subheading still doesn't fit. Why not pull the information under "Construction" into a "Background" section that is stand-alone? Then you can have the "Globe-maker section" focusing on the globes he made. Karanacs (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Comment: I don't think this would work. Most of what we know about Molyneux relates to the making of his globes. There would be hardly anything left in the "Globe-maker" section — JackLee 00:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is the "he" in Ubaldini's report Ubaldini, or Molyneux
        • Comment: From the first part of the sentence ("Molyneux accompanied Francis Drake on his 1577–1580 circumnavigation of the world; ..."), I believe it's clear that Ubaldini was referring to Molyneux.
      • "legend in Latin on the terrestrial globe" -> which terr. globe? The one he gave Harriot? A different one?
        • Comment: "[T]he terrestrial globe" is a general reference to all the terrestrial globes Molyneux produced from the printing plates.

    Karanacs (talk) 15:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I had no problem with this. Although different editions of the globes survive, they were all either the basic terrestrial or basic celestial globe. They were a manufactured product, produced in numbers and updated from time to time. qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your comments. I've made some changes to the article and responded to your comments above. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Several 16th century books (Hakluyt, Ramusio, Hood, etc, etc.) appear in the footnotes, although their only purpose is to list the full form of a book cited in the text by short form. This is redundant and misleading; a link to the list of sixteenth century sources would be better and clearer, and need no footnote.
      • Comment: Can you explain why is this redundant or misleading? Also, are you suggesting that I put these works in the "References" section?
        • Redundant because, AFAICS, you've already listed them as 16th century sources; you don't need to send the reader to the footnotes. Please don't list them as References, unless you used them; footnote listings are misleading to the extent they imply you consulted them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • That was what I understood the "References" section to be for as well. However, in the new "Early works on Molyneux's globes" section, I've only listed works that were directly about the globes, not works such as those by Hakluyt, Ramusio and others. I think they should stay in the footnotes as there isn't anywhere else appropriate to put them. — JackLee 01:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wm. Sanderson's MS from 1656 is in the list of sources, although as far as I can tell it is only cited (far more plausibly) at second hand. Please remove.
      • Fixed: I had initially referred to sources cited in earlier footnotes like this: "Sanderson, above, p. xxx". The GA reviewer advised me that if the works were placed in the "Reference" section, they could simply be referred to as "Sanderson, p. xxx". Anyway, I've removed the Sanderson work from the "Reference" section as suggested.
    • We should consider whether last name first (especially in notes) serves any purpose. The normal order would simplify linking and be clearer.
      • Comment: There doesn't seem to be anything in the Manual of Style on this (correct me if I'm wrong). I've simply been using, and following the format used in, citation templates such as {{citation}}, {{cite book}} and {{cite web}}. Is this a matter that needs to be raised on a Manual of Style talk page?
    Comment. It won't affect FA, but in future, I suggest using first name second name for notes and second name first name for booklists/bibliographies. Most manuals of style (I don't know about ours) recommend this, and it makes sense, because the only point of second name first name is for easy location in an alphabetical list. qp10qp (talk) 22:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment: Thanks, I'll do that in the future. Also, if I have time I'll try and fix the citations in this article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 23:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • OK, have fixed the citations. — JackLee 17 November 2024 09:08 (UTC)

    Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks, I've indicated my comments above. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 23:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comments
    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 01:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Minor quibble, it's nice to see the references given in alphabetical order. Not a big concern, but it is the usual form in publishing and scholarship.
        • Fixed.
      • http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mosmd/17cnav.htm would be nice if the site gave sources for the information given.
        • Comment: If this is a problem, perhaps this website doesn't have to be referred to. I cited it for the fact that Edward Wright had written in his book Certaine Errors in Navigation "about the use of the terrestrial and celestial globes that had been developed by Molyneux", but Wright's book is itself already cited in the Wikipedia article anyway.
  • One more - you've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates Ealdgyth - Talk 18:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.yeoldesussexpages.com/index.html doesn't list the source for the information given.
    • Comment: Unfortunately, you're right. I haven't been able to reference the fact that the Petworth House globe was restored between 1995 and 1997 to any other source.
    • All other links checked out fine with the tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I've put my responses above. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 20:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. An excellent piece of work. I recognise the painstaking and time-consuming effort it takes to compile this sort of article, which is all about particulars. I found it interesting, illuminating, and convincing.

    Three points:

    • In March 1593 Molyneux was issued with a royal warrant and the matter was considered by the Privy Council on 4 November 1596, when the Lord Admiral was urged "to speak to Molyneux, Bussy and the two Engelberts about their offensive engines"[45] as part of measures to defend the south coast of England from recusants. I am not sure what is meant by "recusants" here: which ones? I would have thought the security threat to the south coast was still from the Spanish, who launched a second armada in October 1596, in fact.
      • Comment: The information was from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. The GA reviewer also raised a query about this: see my response to him at "Talk:Emery Molyneux#GA Review".
    Well, I rather agree with that reviewer: it is not enough that it comes from a source, it must be luminous to the reader, and this is not. You might get round it by removing the words "from recusants". Then the meaning would make sense to everyone, while at the same time not contradicting your source. qp10qp (talk) 00:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • My catalogue of the Elizabeth I exhibition at Greenwich suggests that "the cartography for the celestial globe is based largely on the 52.5 centimetre celestial globe made by the Dutch globe maker, Jacob Floris van Langren. It shows the canonical forty-eight Ptolemaic constellations of the southern hemisphere, created by the Dutch cartographer Petrus Plancius". The present article only suggests influence on Langren/Langeren, not from him.
      • Comment: Hmmm, this is different from what Margaret Wallis said in her article on the subject. It's possible that new information has come to light since Wallis published her article in the 1950s. Does the Greenwich exhibition catalogue provide a reference for the information? What's the title of the catalogue? Will see if I can borrow a copy from a library.
    The reference is Elizabeth: The Exhibition at the National Maritime Museum, edited by Susan Doran, Chatto & Windus in association with The National Maritime Museum, 2003, p 134. That entry is by Emily Winterburn and Kristen Lippencot. Their references (for the whole six-paragraph entry), are to Clifton, Globe Making, pp 46–47; Crinò and Wallis, Molyneux Globes, pp 11–18; and Lippencot, Power and Politics, p 138. I've said some more on the talk page. Since only four pages in this book mention Molyneux, just ask me any details you need and I can save you the trouble of borrowing it (although it's a wonderful volume to look at). qp10qp (talk) 00:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fixed: I've added the information to a footnote. Where the article mentions Molyneux's globe having influenced van Langeren, this is a reference to the terrestrial globe. — JackLee 01:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The catalogue also points out and shows that the royal arms were emblazoned across North America on the Temple terrestrial globe. Is this worth mentioning, given that Sanderson had funded Davis's search for the Northwest Passage and Raleigh's Virginia adventures? It would place the globe in the context of the new mercantile imperialism.
      • Comment: I remember something about this in one of the sources I read when preparing the Wikipedia article. Let me dig it up.
    The reference for this is to an essay in the same catalogue by Sian Flynn and David Spence, "Imperial Ambition and Elizabeth's Adventurers", pp 121–131 (specific pages, 127–28). There is also a full-page illustration of the royal arms on North America (present-day Canada, in fact) on page 135. qp10qp (talk) 00:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    qp10qp (talk) 22:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi, thanks for reviewing the article. My responses are above. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 23:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Provisional support—This is very good, but I suggest a run-through by a copy-editor who's unfamiliar with the text. Here are examples of issues at random, towards the top.

    • "The globes were the first to be made in such a way that they were unaffected by the humidity at sea, and they came into general use on ships." When? Even "during the century after his death they ..."?
    I would agree with that. Small ones were being made for £2, so probably all ships had them as the latest thing. This is referenced to Markham, and so will have to do, I should think. qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Didn't like this sentence: "Only six Molyneux globes are believed to exist in the world today, and of these, three are in England. One pair, consisting of a terrestrial and a celestial globe, is presently owned by Middle Temple and displayed in its library, while a terrestrial globe is at Petworth House in Petworth, West Sussex." Perhaps "Only six Molyneux globes are believed to be still in existence. Three are in England, of which one pair, consisting of a terrestrial and a celestial globe, is owned by Middle Temple and displayed in its library; a terrestrial globe is at Petworth House in Petworth, West Sussex." Is that better?
    • "he had a reputation for being a mathematician"—kind of pejorative, like "Tony1 has a reputation for rudeness at FAC". Needs recasting.
      • Comment. I don't think this is pejorative. Such a sentence construction is only pejorative if what the person has a reputation for is itself pejorative. — JackLee 23:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've changed it to "enjoyed a reputation as a mathematician". qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Long winding snake: "In making his terrestrial globes, Molyneux examined ruttiers (instructions for directions at sea)[10] and pilots (navigational handbooks),[11] such as the ruttier for Brazil and the West Indies he gave to Thomas Harriot in 1590,[12][7] and received advice and assistance from navigators and mathematicians.[13]"

    Tony (talk) 10:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi, I've taken your suggestions on board, and my replies are above. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 23:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks; but have you had someone go through the rest of it? I immediately happened upon:
      • "Molyneux emigrated to Amsterdam with his wife in 1596–97." What, it took them two years to do it?
        • Fixed: They emigrated to Amsterdam in 1596 or 1597. I've inserted the word "or". — JackLee 17 November 2024 09:08 (UTC)
      • "Emery Molyneux is regarded as being both the maker of"—Can you remove "being" without changing the meaning?
        • Fixed.
      • "the only way to caste [anything] whatsoever in perfecte forme... and yt is the perfectest and trewest waie of all wayes... and this was the wai that Mullenax did use to cast flowere [flour] in the verie forme".—Are the ellipsis dots in the original, or did you insert them? If the latter, please read MOS on the spacing. Perhaps you need to insert in square brackets if WP's dots, or if in the original, put a note after the quote saying [our ellipsis dots].
        • Fixed: The ellipses were in the source quoted. I've added a space before the ellipses as required by the MoS. I don't think it's necessary to add "[our ellipsis dots]" or anything similar, since MoS doesn't require this. — JackLee 17 November 2024 09:08 (UTC)
      • "greatly-expanded"—No hyphen after "-ly"; see MOS.
        • Fixed, although I'm doubtful about this rule. I would have thought that all compound adjectives should be hyphenated, whether they incorporate an adverb ending in "–ly" or not. — JackLee 17 November 2024 09:08 (UTC)
    Tony is correct. "Greatly" is an adverb, so no hyphen required. qp10qp (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    It's a very good article; let's polish it, yes? I'm sure Sandy would like it out of the road as soon as possible. Tony (talk) 12:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I've asked the GA reviewer if he will cast a pair of fresh eyes over the article for readability. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 13:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I have now given the article the thorough copyedit requested by Tony. But I would argue that this material requires the sort of close, careful detailing that precludes bounding prose. A certain pedantic accuracy is essential for topics like this, and there's no way round that. I have made one or two more comments about the wording, etc. on the talk page.
    Tony, I would very much appreciate it if you could have another look, since not only have your points above been addressed, but the thorough copyedit you requested has been done (I have never worked on this article except to copyedit). A glance at my contributions will show how long it has taken. Others have been copyediting too.qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There is still quite a bit of unstruck concern; has Karanacs been asked to revisit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've left a message on his talk page. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 21:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    What a shame this article hasn't been much reviewed. I have no doubt about its quality. qp10qp (talk) 01:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Support. Well-written, well-referenced and engaging. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comments
      • "The globes were the first to be made in such a way that they were unaffected by the humidity at sea, and they came into general use on ships." Would the meaning of the sentence change if this was reworded to "The globes were the first to be unaffected by the humidity at sea..."?
      • I'm not sure the first two paragraphs should fall under the "Construction" sub-heading. I'd suggest pulling those two paragraphs out of the "Globe-maker" section and placing them before under a separate heading, such as "Background" or something similar.
      • "Thomas Cavendish also appears to have helped Molyneux with his globes, or it is possible that Molyneux..." Are the two mutually exclusive? Also the reference you give does not explicitly state either of these claims; it just says that he recorded Cavendish's tracks. Do other sources shed any light on this? Ah, I did some more reading, and it looks as if this came from Markham xxx. I was about to put this in myself, but noticed that your formatting of the abbreviated "Introduction", Tractatus de Globis does not give the author's name. Is there a particular reason for this?
    I found this a little awkward too and have said something about it on the talk page. I changed "or" to "and" because I agree that the two are not mutually exclusive. My guess is that this sentence is trying to say that Cavendish's voyage has informed the map but that it is not clear whether that is because Molyneux was on the voyage or not. qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "were published after some delay in the late months of 1592 or some time between January and March 1593" Ambiguous position of "after some delay"; sentence should be recast. On first reading, I thought the dates referred to the delay instead of the publication.
    I've simplified this to: "were published in late 1592 or early 1593, after some delay". qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "When she was presented the celestial globe at a second entertainment, she said," Maybe it's just me being paranoid, but I'd prefer it if this would mention again that this quote is according to William.
    I've copyedited this part heavily. That particular bit is now: His son William later reported the Queen's words on accepting the terrestrial globe: "The whole earth, a present for a Prince..."; and on accepting the celestial globe: "Thou hast presented me with the Heavens also: God guide me, to Govern my part of the one, that I may enjoy but a mansion place in this other." qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • "In 1595 the merchant Robert Parkes purchased..." Should this be sourced to the DNB?
      • Try to be consistent in comma use after introductory clauses. For example, I spotted "In the 1590s, Molyneux..." and "In March 1593 Molyneux..."
    I've gone through and made this consistent, I think. qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • What style is used in the citation format? I don't think I've encountered the square bracket notation for abbreviated author names before. This is just out of curiosity more than anything.
      • Since you give the full citations for some of the sources in the "References" section, I don't see a particular need to repeat them in the "Notes" section. Giving the abbreviated form would be just fine, in my opinion.
      • Please provide page numbers for paper references where possible.
      • At times, the prose skirts a bit too close to the original sources for my tastes. I'd be more comfortable if either those sentences are further rephrased or they are edited to employ quotations for phrases that are lifted directly from the original sources. BuddingJournalist 01:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • RE: "Recusants" I think this may be just a case of the ODNB exhibiting confusing phrasing. From the notes of the Privy Council, they were indeed worried about recusants collaborating with the Spanish, but it's clear that the mention of Molyneux is in reference to a possible invasion from Spain. I have pasted the relevant text below:
    Advice [by Lord Burghley] upon the best mode of defending the realm, on advertisement of the preparation of a Spanish navy ; viz. : [...] All recusants to be committed, even women if they are house-holders, and their houses and arms seized ; the parents of children fled out of the realm to be bound not to correspond with or relieve them ; the former forces of the clergy to be renewed ; all cattle and food removed from the sea coasts where the enemy offers to land, and the grindstones taken away from the mills ; field pieces to be drawn with horses, on first view of the enemy, to hinder their landing ; the roads blocked up, fresh water disturbed, fire-works prepared to burn their ships in the haven, and other means considered by the Lord General and council of war; the Lord Admiral to speak to Molyneux, Bussy, and the two Engelberts about their offensive engines. BuddingJournalist 06:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I imagined it was something like that. The recusants were recused from the article a couple of weeks ago, I think. qp10qp (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

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