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May 7

April Fool's Day

Is it true that Crusaders originally did the April Fool's Day prank on the Muslims? Could this be the reason why Muslims hate April Fool's Day? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonic The Xtreme (talk • contribs) 01:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I've heard a lot of wacky things about the crusades, but I've never heard that! Where did you hear this? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, this is an April Fools joke itself. Someone posted a story on April 1 that claimed Muslims should not acknowledge April Fools because it is actually a celebration of the infidels that overthrew Muslim Spain. Therefore, it is an anti-Muslim holiday that is yet one more reason to hate everyone who is not Muslim. Of course, there is absolutely no truth of any kind to the joke that was posted, but many people want to find reasons to hate others (it doesn't matter if they are Muslim or not - many people just feel better if they hate others). So, a large number of Muslims have copied this story and passed it around to others who may want a little extra justification for their feelings. Now, it is at the point that any attempt to slip some truth into the story is seen as infidels trying to alter history to hide how evil they are. -- kainaw™ 05:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

From April Fool's Day:

Before 350, this date was used to celebrate the Birth of Christ (and so can be thought of as the original Christmas). In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. The cause of this shift is thought to be to align the major Christian event to the Pagan holiday that occurs on December 25. In this way, the transition from Pagan, as most of Rome was at that time, to Christianity would be as painless as possible. April 1, the original date set to be the Birth of Christ, was then condoned, and anyone still claiming this date to be Christ's birthday would suffer pranks from others, claiming that those who believed that April 1st was the Christian event was a fool and therefore acceptable to punish. This ideology of pulling pranks has evolved from that time.

--Melmann^(talk) 15:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Race

Is this true that Noah's three sons married different women: Jaspheth married Oriental, Shem married white and Ham married Black? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonic The Xtreme (talk • contribs) 01:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The Bible does not say it, but it is true that there is a long tradition of interpretations of connecting Noah's sons as relating to the origins of human races and the founders of the three then-known continents. See Noah#Christian_perspectives, Shem#Racial_connotations, Ham,_son_of_Noah#The_existence_of_Ham, and Japheth#Ethnic_legends. There is no scientific backing for this, of course. Three sons, three continents... it's literally medieval logic. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the tabula gentium in the book of Genesis, chapter 10, you'll see that Ham is basically listed as the ancestor of African peoples, as well as of those speakers of Semitic languages whom the Israelites didn't like, while Shem is basically the ancestor of the remaining Semitic-speaking peoples whom the Jews knew about, and Japheth is actually associated with Media ("Madai"), Anatolia (Gomer conventionally identified with Cimmerians etc.), and the Aegean. Very reputable scholars have speculated about the possiblity of a Japheth / Iapetus connection. Peoples whom the ancient Jews didn't know about aren't mentioned, and of course modern linguistic and ethnic classifications were not strictly followed... AnonMoos (talk) 04:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

200.144.37.3 (talk) 11:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a query or comment on any particular specific point in reply to my comments, or are you just trying to be snarky? AnonMoos (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

ways to represent ones art

i draw paintings and sketches how do i represent at an early age of 18...me just a starter,,i hav lot of talent and i can make reel things into real life ....they seem livig..at age of 18 no one can offer a new artist a place in his art gallery..please sugeest a better way —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketwakure (talk • contribs) 04:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The libraries in my town sometimes hold exhibitions of the work of local artists, and anybody can ask to have their work exhibited. So does one of the bookshops, although they seem slightly more discriminating about the quality of the work. You can also approach a proper art gallery; I've done this once and been turned away with friendly advice about what sort of pictures the gallery owner knew she could sell; if I wanted produce some like that, she would exhibit them. There's also a cafe which has paintings for sale outside all the time, because I think the artist has some kind of friendship with the cafe owner. Finally, there's a local society of artists I might turn to for advice, if I were keen enough. 81.131.13.122 (talk) 07:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet War  : is the soldier on the left a woman ?

2cd Polish "Death Hussars" Squadron in Lviv in 1920

.

Hello. I am just giving a look to one of your fine star articles (though beeing an average educated 65 years old gentleman, I simply ignored until now the Red Army underwent such a wiping out, back in the 20, makes me understand '40 later events...) and stumble on that 1920 photo. Is the soldier on the left a ( # 40ish years old) woman ? I notice wide hips, inward knees, long hair (maybe tied up into a bun under the french helmet ?) , & propension to self-adornment with flowers (more than the other soldiers...). And if yes, is she known, and does she have an article on WP ? . Thanks a lot, & T. y. PS & I hope I'll be able to find my way back to your rubrique, my brain is really no more now what it used to be... Arapaima (talk) 07:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your left is our right, I assume (i.e. you mean left from the subjects point of view, the right side of the picture). Yes, that sure looks like a women to me. And you can use the "my contributions" link in the upper right corner to find all the pages you edited. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the soldier on the right (from the viewer's perspective), is most certainly a woman. I wonder if anyone knows her name as she would make a good subject for an article, providing there are published documents relating to her.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The online source of this image identifies her as Janina Walicka. So far, I couldn't find any more information about her. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I found a few tidbits of information about her online, but not much. Her full name is given either as Janina Walicka-Łada or Janina Łada-Walicka. She was born ca. 1885 and died in 1935, probably having spent all or most of her life in Lwów (now Lviv). She seems to have been more of a writer then a fighter. During the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918–1919) in Lwów, she was part of the editorial staff of Pobudka ("Reveille"), a four-page daily newspaper with reports from the frontline and Polish propaganda. The editor-in-chief was Artur Schroeder, who is also on the photograph above (left of the banner) and has an entry in Polish Wikipedia (pl: Artur Schroeder). After the war, she made her living as a translator of French literature (she translated works by Francis Jammes, among others). She also published her own books, such as Wierna straż ("Faithful Guard", 1919) and Ułani! Ułani! Malowane dzieci ("Uhlans! Uhlans! The Painted Children", 1921), apparently war memoirs; you should be able to browse the latter book online here. Sources: [1], [2], [3], [4] (all in Polish). I hope that helps. Not sure if all that makes her notable enough for a Wikipedia entry, though. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

On the title page of Ułani! Ułani!..., the author is described as "Janina Łada Walicka, Corporal of the 2nd Squadron, 3rd Cavalry Division of the Lesser Poland Units of Volunteer Army" (Janina Łada Walicka, kapral II-go szwadronu III-go dywizjonu jazdy M.O.A.O.) — Kpalion^(talk) 20:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

So I saw it all right (with my new 4 d. reading glasses, next step'll be cataractotomy, I'm afraid...)!. BTW no man'd think of putting a flower on his RIGHT breast & on his LEFT hip , as a woman adorning her "robe du soir" , wouln't he? BTW, if your surgeon seems to mix up left & right, stay quiet, it's only a convention, a good old habit which has kept many a sane limb from being amputated , & which comes also from having scrutinized so many radios... Thanks a lot to all ! Arapaima (talk) 09:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

UK election results: "others"?

At the bottom of their results table [5] the BBC is reporting that "others" have gained one seat (and some other other has lost one seat). Where can I find out which parties or independent MPs are being referred to? 81.131.13.122 (talk) 07:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

timesonline.co.uk is the first place I'd look, other than the BBC. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The gain is the independent Sylvia Hermon in North Down, and the loss is in Wyre Forest, where the independent Dr Richard Taylor lost to the Conservatives. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, very good, thank you. 213.122.1.69 (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Richard Taylor is not entirely independent - he is part of the Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern party, which also has several local councillors. Warofdreams talk 16:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Conducting business meetings on wikis

Which organizations have attempted to conduct formal meetings on a wiki, as the primary mode of communication during the meeting, not just for noticing or recording agendas or the summarized minutes? What were their experiences? URLs please, if possible. Thank you. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The United States intelligence community uses Intellipedia for "collaborative data sharing," and the Department of State uses Diplopedia for similar purposes. Hope that helps. --Cerebellum (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Wives of Henry VIII

My History teacher always said that Henry VIII had eight wives. As a distraction in Class we used to ask him as we knew he had a stormy Marriage. He was quite clear, though, that Henry had eight. So, how many did he have? MacOfJesus (talk) 08:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What I am curious to know is who gave your former teacher permission to teach history?! I would think he'd have been better off working at a day care centre reading the children fairy tales. Eight wives??!! The average elementary student knows he only had six (Isn't that enough for a monarch?). Jesus wept!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Note to Bernard, the above remark wasn't an insult directed at you, but rather at your former teacher who was clearly not qualified to teach history!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Teaching FAIL. By the way, do you know if your school has made any major budget cuts as of late? Because that could explain your history teacher's incompetence... 24.189.90.68 (talk) 08:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The history teacher in question was the most qualified and most of us went on to take history as a major subject. It does depend on; what is a wife, a marriage, a wedding, and capasity for marriage. If you were to ask me then; one, only. He, the teacher, would always end his dissertation with: "Somepeople find one enough!", and a sigh, straight from the heart. In subsquent marriages he always, I think, insisted that the door was locked-shut and hence a disqualifing criteria, according to civil-law. Hence, it is not such a simple question.MacOfJesus (talk) 09:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you were to ask me then; one, only. Well, a marriage ceases with death of one of the spouses, right? So, Henry had to have at least three wives for he married Jane Seymour after the death of Catherine of Aragon (thus, as a widower in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church), never consumated his marriage to Anne of Cleves (making that marriage non-existing) and finally married Catherine Parr after sending Catherine ParrCatherine Howard to the block. Thus, even a Roman Catholic has to acknowledge Jane Seymour and the Protestantism-leaning Catherine Parr as Henry's wives. Surtsicna (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The fifth wife was Catherine Howard, the last one he sent to the chopping block. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course, I mentioned both the 5th and the 6th as Catherine Parr. Silly me! Surtsicna (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It's easy to get those Catherines mixed up. Maybe that was Henry's problem too. 3 Catherines and 2 Annes. How did Jane get in there? He must have liked her in Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Henry VIII and his 6 wives, or Henry VI and his 8 wives, whichever is the greater. If we're getting answers by non-standard definitions of words, then my answer to "How many wives did Henry VIII have?" is "Cucumber". Otherwise, he had six. FiggyBee (talk) 10:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hence, what is:

1. a Marriage.

2. a wife/husband.

3. necessary capasity for marriage.

4. how far does civil law effectively rule on this.

5. common-law man and wife.

??

MacOfJesus (talk) 10:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Crazy questions <==> crazy responses. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you ask a silly question, then you are sure to get a silly answer. But the list above reaches into the legal world and and our assumptions that need questioning. So how safe is our marriages? MacOfJesus (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

No safer than our marriage are.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what the OP means by "safe". In any case, Henry VIII had six wives. He also had mistresses, but they didn't count as "wives". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Didn't the television show, QI say something about him only having 2 wives, can't remember the details. Mo ainm~Talk 11:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wives of Henry VIII, linked above, covers this. Since marriages 1, 2, 4 and 5 were annulled, they are void and don't count towards QI's total. Nevertheless, there were six women what at some point were described as Henry VIII's wife. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I maintain he only had one, as he engendered the others in such a way that they were doubtfully valid, knowingly, so he could not clame, therefore, subsquently, that he was common-law man and wife. Hence, only one. By safe, I mean binding, for better, for worse, in sickness, in health,...

MacOfJesus (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

And which one would that be? By the way, I wish I had had your history teacher when I was in school. What fun I'd have had!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The first, of course, that was made properly. Civil law then said only one, then and now. Anyone who disagreed usually lost their heads, or came to a sudden end, but that does not change law. MacOfJesus (talk) 12:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, whoever disagreed with Henry VIII usually lost his or her head such as Sir Thomas More who took the stance that Catherine was his rightful wife; as did the Roman Catholic Church which was why he severed ties with Rome.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but Catherine of Aragon died in 1536, so if Henry was not divorced, he would at least be a widower by the time of his marriage to Anne of Cleves in 1540. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe your teacher was thinking of I'm Henery the Eighth, I Am, where the narrator is the eighth husband of the widow next door. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's possible he had just watched Herman's Hermits on YouTube- LOL. Bernard, you mentioned Henry's marriage to Catherine of Aragon having been made properly. Well, if you read the articles on Henry VIII, Catherine of Aragon, and Anne Boleyn, you will see that Henry had strong doubts as to the validity of his marriage to her, seeing as the Bible in the Book of Leviticus proscribed marriages between a man and his brother's widow (which Catherine was). That was what started the ball of the English Reformation rolling. The doubts had begun before he became enmeshed in the throes of violent desire for Lady Anne, so the latter cannot take the entire rap for his wish to seek an annulment from Queen Catherine.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

When I was in 8th grade, lo these many centuries ago, my teacher insisted that the capital of Brazil is Rio de Janeiro. I had to take my atlas to school to prove to her that, no, the capital of Brazil is Brasilia. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 18:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Rio was the capital until 1960 though, so that might be somewhat understandable if you were in 8th grade in like 1963 vs 1990. Googlemeister (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I remember when Rio ceased to be capital and Brazilia became so ! MacOfJesus (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't, but I certainly remember when the capital of Germany was not Berlin. :) FiggyBee (talk) 22:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand, that when the Marriage to Catherine of Aragon was envisaged all the necessary dispensations civil and otherwise would have been granted beforehand. Henry, bringing up these doubts postiae would be a non sequitur, as at the time he wished the marriage, and gone into beforehand. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Henry pretty much did what he wanted to. Trying to re-count his 6 wives based on current law is not really valid. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

And this starts to become a slippery slope, because if his first wife was not legitimate, neither was their daughter who was nonetheless the queen for awhile, so apparently at the time it was considered legitimate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Civil law's regulations are binding on marriage and their regulations effect the validity thereof. This is the case then and now. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

So England had at least two illegitimate rulers, Mary I and Elizabeth I? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe it's just one or the other. If his first marriage was improper, then Mary 1 was eligitimate and Anne Boleyn was truly his first wife, and Elizabeth I was legitimate. If his first marriage was proper and the divorce was improper, then Mary I was legitimate and Elizabeth I was illegitimate. However, if go by what the sources say, all 6 wives counted, and all 3 kids he produced via those 6 marriages were legitimate. Apparently Edward VI, son via Jane Seymour, was legitimate no matter how you slice it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Elizabeth I was illegitimate any way you look at it. She was considered illegitimate by the Roman Catholic Church from the moment she was born and she was considered illegitimate by the Church of England from the moment her parents' marriage was annulled. Elizabeth succeeded per Third Succession Act - without the Act, theoretically, she would not have right to the crown being illegitimate. Elizabeth herself was aware of her "double" illegitimacy; while the first thing her sister Mary I did upon accession was declaring that she was legitimate and that the marriage of her parents had been valid, Elizabeth I never did such a thing. Of course, the issue of Elizabeth's illegitimacy was carefully ignored (though never denied) during her reign. Surtsicna (talk) 21:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Uh... if there was a law declaring her to be the queen, then by law she was legitimate, ja? And if his first marriage was invalid according to religious law (as someone else mentioned earlier), then Anne Boleyn was his first wife, and then Liz I would be legitimate anyway, right? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see... both Mary and Liz were "technically" illegitimate, but the 3rd succession act said they could serve anyway, if Eddie didn't produce any kids (which he didn't), and furthermore it was off-with-their-heads if anyone challenged the 3rd succession act. So be careful what you say, or you might end up in the Tower waiting for a cheap and chippy chopper. >:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's right! They were declared to be eligble to succeed but were still considered illegitimate; that's why the Act stipulated that any child (even a daughter) born by Catherine Parr would rank ahead of both Mary and Elizabeth in the line of succession. Had Henry had a daughter by his last wife, she would have succeeded Edward instead of Mary (being daughter of his wife and not of his sister-in-law/mistress). Henry's first marriage was declared invalid by the Church of England, but never by the Roman Catholic Church. Henry's second marriage was thus never valid from the POV of the RC Church. Then the CoE declared the second marriage null and void on the grounds of Anne's previous marriage contract with the Earl of Northumerland and/or on the grounds that Henry cohabited with Anne's sister Mary (just like his 1st marriage was annulled on the grounds that Catherine cohabited with Henry's brother). Surtsicna (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, and the point of all this is not who Henry was fooling around with, but who were the rightful heirs to the throne. If kings were elected instead of being hereditary, this wouldn't be a problem. I wonder if this legitimacy issue has anything to do with why Liz was childless. Because if she had had children, it would have seriously complicated matters, yes? Back to the original question, how many wives did Henry VIII have, the conventional answer is 6, although there are debates about several of them. I wonder if that teacher was counting the 2 known mistresses in the total? Because, truth to tell, the way Henry managed his personal life, the line between wife and mistress was a tad blurry. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for coming back to the question. Yes, the teacher was including those two. To our objection, the teacher said that Henry was the Law. Comon law man and wife was mentioned. We questioned the validity of this. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

We would call his opinion "original research". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Unrelated question: Did Henry VIII really wear a codpiece to show he was "sexually powerful", or was my history class reading too much into the fact when my history teacher said he wore a codpiece? Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 23:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't that a pretty common item of attire in those days?

Yep, codpieces were a standard item of fashion in England in the early 16th century. See 1500-1550 in fashion#Overview 2. FiggyBee (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

As I said: We had a good history teacher! MacOfJesus (talk) 00:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If you come to The Tower of London you can see Henry's attire, first hand. MacOfJesus (talk) 00:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland used Mary and Elizabeth's alleged illegitimacy as an excuse to usurp the Crown for his daughter-in-law Lady Jane Grey. Henry had deliberately excluded his elder sister Margaret's Scottish descendants from the succession in his will.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Too bad there weren't tabloids then - they would have had endless material. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look at Talk:Elizabeth I of England#Elizabeth and Mary - stepsisters or half-sisters?!. A user claims that Mary and Elizabeth were not sisters and puts that original research into articles! Henry's family life was complicated but at least we know who were his daughters. Surtsicna (talk) 13:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I have commented there. What some people don't realise is that authors of fiction put notions like that into their novels just as tabloid-style sensationalism in order to sell more copies. Nowadays, readers want spice not truth, alas.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't loose your head! I do agree what people want is novelty; "always itching for something new", not truth! MacOfJesus (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, loosing one's head is a bad idea, because it could wobble around so much that it eventually breaks off, then you'll most likely lose it because you've got other things on your mind, such as the fact that your mind has been separated from your body. Not to mention that you're dead now.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to every one who contributed to this important issue of how many wives did Henry VIII have. However, I am left none the wiser! I think it hinges on whether Henry was "the Law" or not. Was there a viable Law outside him? I still think there was, hence I think only one wife! MacOfJesus (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not up to you though. Wives of Henry VIII, Marriage Act 1753#The situation directly preceding the Act and English Reformation may help your understanding of the legal matters. The apparent summary is that marriages were governed by church law and Henry had four of his six marriages annulled (declared legally void) by officials of the church (see Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury who did the annulling), though the first marriage was retroactively validated under Mary I of England. On an aside, even if you disagree with the validity of the annulments, Henry's first wife was dead before he married his fourth. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:07, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I can raise objections to all of these points. Church Law had changed, Henry saw to that. (Henry was now the head of the Church in the land). Henry encumpassed the death of those who stood in his way, including his wives. Even his local Church, Saint Alfrige's, who put him out; all were untimely killed. Even then, if you comit a crime to gain from it you are legally barred. 1753 is 100 years too late! It is up to all thinking beings to think, it is up to history to recount the deeds/events of the past. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

You're still missing the point

1. Your opinion on whether it was morally right or wrong does not matter.
2. Whether (and when) Henry's marriages were considered legally valid was a matter of law. The legal declarations that were made are in the articles linked above. If you're arguing that the King did not have the power to change the law, I think you need to read a more comprehensive history of English law to find answers on what powers the king had. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Did I not say that this hinges on the matter of Law not on my opinion? Did I not say that my history teacher said then: that Henry was the Law. Did you not read/follow the page above? I am studying this from an academic point of view, not from a knee-jerk reaction. Hence, I am ending this dissertation. MacOfJesus (talk) 15:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I apologise, my comment was somewhat rude. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. MacOfJesus (talk) 19:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Elected

I went to vote yesterday and met my local Labour coucilor, who convinced me to change my vote, I would like to know if he was reelected, how do I find out the results for my area? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 08:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Surprisingly I can't find any information but from what I remember they don't even start counting the local council elections votes until they have finished counting the general election ones. If I'm right you will not be able to find out until tomorrow. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes you can: BBC.co.uk election ,then put in your area in the appropriate box and wait. Expect to wait as the whole of the UK are doing the same! Did you vote, and for whom? MacOfJesus (talk) 09:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That provides the local results detailing which MP was elected in the general election, but there were also a number of local council elections taking place yesterday (in Plymouth, for example). It's not clear which the OP is asking about, but the word "councilor" provides a strong clue. 81.131.21.170 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC).

Oh, but: [6] the BBC do have the local council results, in handy A-Z form. Perhaps that was what MoJ meant. 81.131.21.170 (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the BBC's site doesn't tell you who was elected; there's no names, just parties and number of seats. FiggyBee (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your local council's website will probably have the results (eg Salford, Notlob...) FiggyBee (talk) 10:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you want the full results, then ring your local Constituints Office. MacOfJesus (talk) 10:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The site is now: BBC.co.uk election results , then when the varius options come up under Google, choose 2010 results. OK? MacOfJesus (talk) 12:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous reviews in The New York Times

Who could possibly write this review:

• Swinburne's "Studies in Songs". The New York Times, December 19, 1880, page 4. - ??

If pinpointing the author is ruled out, maybe it is possible to narrow the pool of "the usual suspects"? What kind of people used to review poetry in NYC of 1880? I hope not the poets themselves... TIA, East of Borschov (talk) 15:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

None of the reviews in that issue — or the articles, for that matter — have by-lines. I think triangulating the authors would be a non-trivial task. 19th-century periodicals are generally pretty different than modern ones in many respects, their way of handling authorship being one of them. My impression is that editors were more important than authors, on the whole. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Social proximity — jargon terms for types of propinquity? (Sociology/Social Philosophy)

According to dictionary.com (and roughly consistent with the Wikipedia page):

propinquity

–noun

1. nearness in place; proximity.

2. nearness of relation; kinship.

3. affinity of nature; similarity.

4. nearness in time.

I'd always thought it only meant the first definition and was associated with proximity. Apparently not. So what, if anything, is the jargon term one would use to specifically refer to the third definition above?

Example: people that live in proximal apartments or work in the same office have proximity as the basis for a relationship (what I thought was propinquity); but what about people that share interests, such as in wine tasting, or discussing social philosophy?

Bonus points: the latter seems to be the basis for many specialized on-line social networks (flixster, goodreads), whereas facebook is perhaps an adjunct to pre-existing relationships. Is there an academic journal or other forum that specializes in these things?

Thanks. -- MrRedwood (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

[Your comments and questions reminded me of the article Six degrees of separation. It might not actually deal with your specific questions, but it seems to be close enough that it probably would be of interest. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)]

You may wish to see Erdős number and Erdös Number Project. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for both of those; I took a look and they were both interesting examples of proximal relationships of some kind (btw, on Erdös, have you seen this?). But I'm interested in the academic abstraction — its hard to do research when one doesn't know the tightly focused jargon terms the academics use. -- MrRedwood (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I had not seen that. You might find websites to help you with jargon if you use http://www.google.com/Top/Society/. I can also suggest http://vark.com/ and http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Ask_an_Expert/. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Robert Simon Telfer Scott DSM and HMS Havelock Norway 1940

OTRS received the following email today. The sender wanted me to relay this question to you (spelling has been corrected):

Hi.

I am just wondering if you can help me as i have tried everything that i can but without success, i have sat here at my computer for hours but have not been able to get the information that i want.

My uncle as outlined above was in the British Navy for 23 years and in the last world war he was on HMS Havelock in Norway when he was awarded the DSM Medal which he got at Buckingham Palace on the 13th March 1940.

The problem is this none of the family that are left no why he got the medal as he never discussed the war with anyone which is very sad.

Can you help me or point me in the right direction. i have been in touch with the Naval secretary who says that the citation and papers on the matter were kept at Kew but have now been destroyed,why i ask myself have they done that without at least taking a microcopy of them.

I do hope you can help me as i have spent hours at this computer trying for an answer,someone out there must have the answer but where. IS there a site that i can log onto as if so can you please help.

Thank you,

Dallas woods Mr

In a separate email, he stated this:

Hi again.

I have just sent you an e-mail re the above but have not given you the following information.

His navel number was p/jx 130249 and he was a leading seaman when he got the medal.

He was born on the 3rd Dec 1910 and died on the 15th March 1991.

Thank you.

Dallas woods

Can any military history experts on the RefDesk help? Thanks, Willking1979 (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your uncle's DSM was part of a large batch of awards made "for services in Norway". The captain of the Havelock received the DSO in the same group of awards. The London Gazette entry is here (your uncle's name appears on the next page). The exact action which won Robert Scott his DSM may be lost to history, unless you can find someone who was there, but there's a brief summary of H88's contribution to the Norwegian Campaign here - following up the book references on that page might prove fruitful. FiggyBee (talk) 17:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, note the date on the Gazette conflicts with your information. The 13th of March would have been too early for Norway. FiggyBee (talk) 18:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Does this page help you? [7] --TammyMoet (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Anne Boleyn

I have read all articles I can find and consulted the library attached to St Paul's Cathedral. I can find no record of a PUBLIC wedding for Anne Boleyn to Henry V111. I understand they were married privately in the winter of 1532/1533. Later, when Henry's marriage to Katherine of Aragon was declared void, the marriage was accepted and Anne was crowned Queen Consort about month later. Was there a public marriage and, if so, where did it take place? Elspeth M Cavendish (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course they didn't want a public marriage... she had her head tucked underneath her arm Shii (tock) 20:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't her alleged supernumerary breast have got in the way? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you've already read our Anne Boleyn article, which mentions two "secret" wedding ceremonies. The article doesn't specifically say there was no public ceremony. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

There was no public ceremony. They were married twice in secret, and her first official public appearance was her procession (by litter) through London from the Tower to Westminster Abbey where she was crowned queen the following day on 1 June 1533. The marriage had been proclaimed several days earlier on 28 May after Archbishop Cranmer declared Henry's marriage to Catherine had been "null and void". And Jack, she did not have an extra breast, a goiter on her neck or a sixth finger; these were rumours spread by hostile Imperialists and Catholics to portray her as a witch.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I know, Jeanne. That's why I said "alleged". But the version I've heard is that these claims were used by Henry as "evidence" to support the charges that led to her beheading. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Anne was charged with High Treason, not witchcraft, of which the penalty was death by burning. Henry actually used God's denial of living male offspring as proof that she had bewitched him, but she was never formally accused of having practised witchcraft. Remember in the 16th century, it was believed that the female determined the child's sex, hence the appeal of Jane Seymour who had a plethora of brothers. Henry also had lamented that Anne had used sorcery to kill his sons while they were in her womb. (Nice one Henry, obviously overlooking the fact that the birth of a son would have saved Anne!)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:25, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe Jeanne Boleyn may be slightly ambiguous on one point. To amplify, in England witchcraft in the sense of mere maleficium (sorcery intended to harm another, the more common charge over several centuries) was generally not in itself a capital offense. Increasingly during the early modern period, however, witchcraft per se was characterised and prosecuted as heresy, which was a capital offense, but in England heretics were normally hanged (though in Scotland they were indeed burned), while burning was reserved for those (commoners) guilty of treason.

Treason, however, could be either 'High' - directed against the monarch, etc, or 'Petty' - directed against one's spouse (usually husband). Thus if a female witch was found guilty of attempted or actual murder of her husband by sorcery she could be sentenced to burn either for heresy or for petty treason.

Anne, therefore, could potentially have been accused and sentenced to be hanged for Sorcery, or burned for Heresy or High Treason or Petty Treason, but in the event was given the 'noble' execution of beheading.

An excellent, detailed and scholarly reference dealing with such matters (though barely mentioning Anne Boleyn herself) in 16th- and 17th-century England is Religion and the Decline of Magic by Keith Thomas. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

My point is Anne Boleyn was executed for High Treason as well as adultery and incest. Not once were charges of witchcraft or heresy levelled against her. It should be noted that adultery committed by a queen consort was treason in England which normally carried the sentence of burning. Henry, out of clemency commuted the sentence to beheading by sword.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

any sex symbols who worked as a pair?

are there any sex icons who did their profession as a pair, a la Gilbert and Sullivan? Thank you. 84.153.199.22 (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It depends on your definition, for both parts of the question. I know there's a list, but I'm not convinced it's either complete or properly cited. Also, do you mean once, or multiple times? Tracy and Hepburn come to mind, although they were more like regular movie stars, as opposed to "sex symbols". Likewise with the pair who did the Thin Man series. Cary Grant and Mae West, who are both on the list, did a movie together, but only one or at most two. For that matter, so did the younger Tom Cruise and the older Paul Newman, in the sequel to the Newman-Gleason film about the pool sharks. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, and also Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz, have done a few movies together, if that counts. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers? Burton and Taylor? Kittybrewster ☎ 21:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to ask at the Entertainment Desk? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Marcello Mastroianni and Sophia Loren, Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor (twice), Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, Terence Stamp and Julie Christie.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Gilbert and Sullivan were sex icons??!!! Anyway my first thought was Mulder and Scully. Or (for a certain mostly female fan subculture), Kirk/Spock, pronounced "Kirk slash Spock". 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Those sideburns and moustaches? Phwoar. FiggyBee (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Gilbert and Sullivan would be sex symbols on the same order as the Smith Brothers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Various siblings: the Cheeky Girls, the Minogues, and so on. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 19:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

If the U.S. Government stopped printing paper money tomorrow, what would happen?

40 years ago this would have led to rapid deflation, right? As the supply of paper money in circulation dwindled? But now, with everyone having electronic banking in their wallets and purses, would the cessation of money printing in America really have any non-trivial effects? 61.189.63.151 (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The last time I was at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, they said most of the money they print is to replace worn-out bills returned to them by the federal reserve banks. If you stop doing that, you'll eventually run out of bills, and then you'll have to carry a boatload of dollar coins in your man-purse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What would have happened 40 years ago, and would happen today if people and institutions didn't quickly adapt to all-electronic money (which is still far from something that everyone has), is the currency would become effectively unusable (you're "phasing out" bills with nothing replacing them) and the economy would completely collapse. The elimination of cash might have unpredictable effects on the black market and other criminal activities. FiggyBee (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The questioner did specify just the removal of paper currency, and not the "elimination of cash". Presumably dollar coins (and other coinage) would still be available, and would become standard for small transactions, as Bugs suggests. Checks would make a big comeback, I guess. People paid under the table would face some special challenges. Overall, the economy would suffer because of the increased difficulty of conducting routine business. —Kevin Myers 08:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Americans have shown a curious resistance to using any coin larger than 25c. Unless the mints started producing masses of coins, the small number of large coins in circulation would be unable to take up much slack left by an absence of bills. I don't think coins would be usable for anything other than what they're used for now (extremely small transactions, a cup of coffee or a newspaper). FiggyBee (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

One reason (as I alluded to earlier) is that men generally don't carry purses, and dollar coins tend to be heavy. Another problem used to be that very few vending machines would take them, and when you would get a Susie or a Sacagawea in change at a store, you would dump spend it at some other store as soon as possible. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

My partner (who is American) was amazed at how chunky and heavy Australian coins are. But on the other hand, as I pointed out to her, a two dollar coin is an awful lot lighter and easier to handle than eight quarters! FiggyBee (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Most modern vending machines take dollar bills. They probably take dollar coins, too, but most folks are not in the habit of using them. The fact is, unless the government stops making them, the dollar bill will continue to be preferred. When they went with the Susie, they continued to print dollar bills. As with feeble attempts to bring in the metric system, if you keep the old system around, very few have incentive to change. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If you meant they stopped creating new money (ignoring the whole replacing damaged money) the quantity theory of money would suggest that you are correct. The whole electronic money supply thing is not really that important because to create electronic money banks do need some amount of "real" money, see fractional reserve banking --124.186.89.122 (talk) 11:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't confuse currency with money. The vast majority of U.S. dollars are in electronic form without a banknote anywhere. The amount of paper currency in circulation has little to do with the money supply. That money in your checking or savings account is purely in electronic form. If the Federal Reserve stopped printing dollars on paper, it would be a terrible inconvenience at first but people would adjust and find alternatives. It's unlikely it would cause the whole economy to collapse. For cash transactions, many alternatives are available to Federal Reserve Notes. People would conduct more business with credit/debit cards and bank checks. Private banks could issue their own currencies that would be redeemable in dollars. This used to be common in the U.S. People might choose to use a foreign currency for cash transactions. The Canadian dollar or the euro would be likely candidates. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if McDonald's gift certificates became the new currency. I'd say overall the effects would be non-trivial but the U.S. economy would adjust very quickly. —D. Monack ^talk 08:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

May 8

English Democrats in Wales

Can anyone in Britain inform me why the English Democrats Party has run for the Welsh Assembly? 03:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Member (talk • contribs)

Probably, but the very first article you linked to unsurprisingly also can... (see the '#Welsh Assembly elections' section for starters) Nil Einne (talk) 06:53, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Monmouthshire was included within Wales for all administrative purposes after the 1970s, but this was contested by some - see Monmouthshire (historic)#Ambiguity over Welsh status for more information. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Short Story Collection

I am looking for a short story collection, possibly edited by Isaac Asimov, or featuring one of his stories. The first story is about a man who awakens without any memory and is given a series of physical and mental tests. It turns out that scientists have been putting different personalities into his body in an effort to find the perfect one for interstellar travel. Any idea of the title/author? dlempa (talk) 04:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like Larry Niven's A World Out of Time, though that's a novel, not a short story collection. It's possible that an excerpt was published in one of Niven's collections. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The story "Rammer", which is the basis for the novel, is in A Hole in Space and Playgrounds of the Mind. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Although dlempa's memory of the story may be imperfect, it does not quite match "Rammer", in which (Spoiler Warning) the protagonist wakes up in another body (of a mindwiped criminal), but well remembers his past life prior to his having been cryogenically preserved. However, it's true that several other personalities/minds had previously been retrieved from "corpsicles" and had failed to measure up. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

"Rammer" was the one I was thinking of. I guess it wasn't connected with Isaac Asimov. Thanks all for the help! dlempa (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Classical buildings with asymmetric pediment

Resolved

The picture at the top of [8] shows a fictional building from the Pokémon franchise. What I like about it is the asymmetric pediment. Now, my question is not so much where the animators drew their inspiration from. (That would be one for the E desk.) What I want to know is if there are any (neo-)classical buildings, from before about 1800 AD, that have a similar asymmetry. I have never seen anything like this, and something tells me the Greeks would have abhorred this. Thank you in advance. 83.81.60.11 (talk) 07:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Is not the "asymmetrical pediment" a factory-style one sided clerestory? Such things are more a feature of modern gymnasiums than ancient temples-for one thing, you'd need very light and strong roofing materials. FiggyBee (talk) 11:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that appears more like a Clerestory then an asymetrical pediment. The whole fictional building smacks of Postmodernism with its clash of architectural styles. There is a strong Mannerist influence, and the roof line is very much in keeping with the Constructvist movement. In total though, this clash of styles makes this building, if it was real, post modern ( the corinthian colums in front not supporting anything also helps!).--Found5dollar (talk) 14:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Not that they would abhor it ... rather, these will simply not survive the time - vernacular oddities come and go unnoticed. As FiggyBee said, asymmetric roofing is quite a challenge structurally, so its use had to be limited to smaller buildings. East of Borschov (talk) 13:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I hadn't thought of that. Indeed you might be able to build this today, but not two millennia ago, not on this scale. Well, I would have loved for someone to say: "Oh yeah, there's this 2nd century building a lot like this in Rome!", but that is not going to happen then. I agree with the other comments as well. I am going to mark this resolved, but if anyone has anything to add, please do so anyway. Thank you all. 83.81.60.233 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC) (Yes, my IP address has changed, apparently.)

First French national anthem

While it's a known fact that La Marseillaise was composed in 1792, was there a prior national anthem sung in France during the Bourbon régime or was this the first?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• Talking entirely off the top of my head - national anthems are quite a modern idea - God Save the King is often quoted as the first one. Its origins are disputed but it wasn't widely known before the 1745 Rebellion and I believe it was some years afterwards that began to be used in any official capacity. Therefore, I'd be surprised if the Kings of France had any music that would fit the modern idea of a national anthem.

Thanks. If La Marseillaise is indeed the first French national anthem the article should state this.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I have since added to the La Marseillaise article that it was France's first ever anthem. Thank you again for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Someone had added an uncited claim that the previous anthem was "Land of the Free". I very much doubt a monarchy would have such a theme song, plus I couldn't find anything about it in google. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

This page[9] gives more details about national anthems in France; La Marseillaise only being used from 1795-99 and from 1870 onwards. Napoleon apparently had no use for a national anthem (sorry Tchaikovsky - you got that bit wrong) and the restored French monarchy (1815-30) used "Le retour des Princes Français à Paris" and "Où peut-on être mieux qu'au sein de sa famille". Louis-Philippe (1830-1848) used "La Parisienne" and Napoleon III went for "Partant pour la Syrie" perhaps because it may have been written by his mum. I think the "Land of the Free" thing needs to go. I couldn't find anything on Google either, even when I tried to translate it into Franglais. Alansplodge (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

That was actually in the National anthem article. It was posted by a one-shot who was just messing around with things. It be gone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

.Going by the link Alansplodge provided, La Marseillaise was the first anthem in France, as well as the first European march style of anthem. I have added it to the article as well as the part about it having been adopted by the international revolutionary movement, including the Paris Commune in 1871.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

[outdent] Tangentially, Jacques Barzun noted that Rouget de Lille wrote the verses at the request of a mayor of a city that was not Marseilles, and had that city stuck, the song could have become known as the Strasbourgeoisie.

The Destruction of Bruchsal in 1945

I have a question regarding the Allied destruction of the city of Bruchsal in 1945.

It stems from information from Perry Biddiscombe in his book on the German partisan movement (Werwolf). According to Biddiscombe, in his section on Allied reprisals; U.S. combat troops destroyed the town of Bruchsal in retaliation for unclear SS activities.

The problem here is that apparently information on what happened to Bruchsal is confusing.

• 1. The troops that occupied Bruchsal were French, as Biddiscombe himself notes in a separate paper on non-fraternisation where he notes that the French troops that moved in on April 2 1945 committed 600 rapes in the town.

• 2. The wikipedia article itself on the town states that the town was destroyed and 1000 killed by Allied bombing on March 1, 1945, with the front-line only 20 km away. Apparently the bombing had no purpose, it was simply a retaliation for some peasants lynching an Allied aviator.[10]

• 3. Another source states that Buchenau (a city "suburb" of Bruchsal) was destroyed by American artillery fire on February 2, 1945.[11]

Does anyone have info that could clear up exactly what Biddiscombe is referring to? Is it the U.S. artillery shelling that destroyed 80% of one part of the city on February 2, 1945. And what was the real reason behind the shelling in that case?

--Stor stark7 ^Speak 12:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I found the 1 March bombing mentioned in a number of different bomber group histories (example); they all say it was aimed at the marshalling yards and do not mention a reprisal motive.

According to the German wikipedia article on Büchenau, the 2/3 February destruction of Büchenau was from the air, the result of a failed RAF mission to bomb Karlsruhe. I found a mention of that mission here. --Cam (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea of Mankind waging war against God

I'm aware that this is a touchy subject. I'd like to make clear that I'm not making a point, or looking for a religious debate, or anything like that -- I'd just like to learn about the historical background of this idea.

The idea summed up is: If a vengeful God (such as described in the Old Testament) existed, the only rational choice for humankind would be to wage war against such a being.

I've bumped into this kind of reasoning in a couple of fictional narratives, the latest one being Dan Simmons' sci-fi novel 'Hyperion'. I'm kind of sure though, that this line of thought can be traced further back than a sci-fi novel. Is there a philosopher that this can be attributed to? Perhaps there's even an exact quote?

Thank you for your time :) 85.23.16.84 (talk) 14:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You can find answers here and here. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

[The website http://www.watchtower.org/ is obsolete, but Wayback Machine has archives of Armageddon—A Catastrophic End? indexed at https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_01.htm, and archives of Armageddon—A Happy Beginning indexed at https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_02.htm. Today the official website is http://www.jw.org, and those articles are at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005880 and http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005881 respectively.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)]

One could argue that Satanists wage war against God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

What I'm really looking for is the source people like mr. Simmons used while writing his novel. While I admire Simmons as a writer, I doubt he personally came up with this idea. Nietzsche's writings did critique religion, and have influenced popular culture a bunch, perhaps that's as far as we can get? I don't know my philosophers very well, which is why I'm here. 85.23.16.84 (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea of waging war on God sounds like the plot line from Clash of the Titans. And since the God of Abraham is supposed to be all-powerful, it would be a little bit like a colony of ants trying to wage war on a lightning storm. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Or mortals waging war against Zeus.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

All things considered, the mortals' odds would be a lot better against Zeus than against "YHWH". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Good points, yet I still see this as more of a monotheistic religion thing. The whole idea is pretty much the ultimate expression of blasmephy: instead of speaking or rebelling against God, people unite with the purpose of utterly destroying him. This isn't nearly as radical an idea in a polytheistic religion -- there was no end to mortals pulling tricks on Zeus and the other gods of the Greek pantheon. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel strongly compelled to apologise to the OP for the responses, most of which haven't even tried to be helpful. Don't worry - there are people who will try to help you find an answer - it just seems that they're not one of them (neither am I - because I know nothing about the subject). Vimescarrot (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He cannot be defeated by any force in the universe. That's what I was trying to get at. Hope that clears things up for you. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}

But that's completely and utterly irrelevant to the original question. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

carrots→ 22:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC) I have to say that God is not depicted as vengeful in the Old Testament. ╟─TreasuryTag►constablewick─╢ 22:14, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you corroborate that assertion with specific references, TT? It seems contrary to the impression I, and most people I have discussed the matter with over the last 4 decades, have formed from reading the OT. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 22:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

What sort of references do you want?! I linked to the page Judaism, which is a large religion of people who worship God solely based on the Old Testament. God is regarded as "One and indivisible, transcendent and immanent, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Source of the Moral Law, a God of justice and mercy who demands that human beings shall practise justice and mercy in their dealings with one another." ╟─TreasuryTag►most serene─╢ 08:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd hardly say that Judaism worships God solely based on the OT -- that would be Karaism. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

(I am the IP who posted this question) All right, I did kind of promise that I don't want a religious debate, but I can't resist responding to this. Sorry.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" Exodus 20:5

This seems rather vengeful, and is attributed to Lord Himself, no less. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The "children suffer for their parents' sins" passage is revoked by God in Ezekiel 18:2-4 – "What do you mean by quoting this proverb, The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge? As sure as I live, declares the Sovereign God, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel." I assume you forgot that bit!

There are also countless instances of God exercising mercy: Sodom and Gomorrah, the entire Book of Jonah, the final parts of the Book of Job... to name a few.

And I do hope you are not suggesting that Jews worship a vengeful and vicious God, because that is simply not the case. ╟─TreasuryTag►Captain-Regent─╢ 09:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point. I don't want to press this any further, this really isn't the appropriate forum for this kind of debate. Zigorney (talk) 09:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Any book of religion is ultimately scribed by mortals. Vengeful would ultimately be a human perception, no?  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  22:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The concept of humanity warring against God can be traced all the way back to the Bible, for example in Psalms 78:56 "But they put God to the test and rebelled against the Most High" and Psalms 107:11 "for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High." Beyond that, I am not aware of any philosophers who advocated waging war against God; Nietsche's "God is dead, and we have killed him, you and I!" refers more to humanity having rejected the concept of a God, either to plunge into nihilism or to become an Übermensch. Like you, however, I am not that well versed in my philosophy so maybe someone else can give us some more info.

If we go to literature, you can look at Milton's Paradise Lost, and the Romantic movement was pretty heavily into the idea of Satan as a hero; you can read more about that here. Particularly relevant is the quote, "in "Cain", Lucifer teaches mankind to rebel against a tyranny that blocks happiness, just as he himself rebelled against God." Jean Boleyn is correct that there is a lot of warfare against God in Satanist thought as well. In more modern times, The Sandman features Lucifer heavily, and I think I read something a while back, perhaps in an Orson Scott Card novel, a passage about how God is a tyrant and it is perfectly logical to rebel against him.

So basically, there are vague hints of the thought process you are referring to scattered all throughout Western thought, and somewhere there is probably even an exact source, but I don't know where it is. Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I think some of the posters here are confusing rebellion with warfare. Refusing to obey God's law is not warfare, it's rebellion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

(I am the IP who posted this question) Thanks for the answers so far! While it seems like there isn't a single person or an exact quote available, at least I have a bunch of new stuff to read :) Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese manga Neon Genesis Evangelion comes to mind after reading this discussion. --Belchman (talk) 10:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Evangelion (mecha). Hah, i'm glad we have japan. They know that including FIGHTING ROBOTS makes everything better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigorney (talk • contribs) 10:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an author seldom reveals the reason(s) for his or her idea(s), but you might wish to see the article Hyperion (Simmons novel).

-- Wavelength (talk) 13:59, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Zigorney, if you are genuinly interested in this subject as an academic study then; C.G. Jung's book, "Answer to Job", would be a must to read. However, do understand that the understanding of God in the Old Testament is very different to the understanding of God in the New. Jung explores the notion of God in this context to understand better the relationship with God, from the standpoint of someone with a Christian background. From Jung's further words and writings he took God and Jesus seriously. The exact quotes would be legion, but you would need to read the whole book to get a clear understanding of Jung on this subject, and not to take him out of context. Do understand that Jung is not a Scripture scholar and says so at the beginning of the book. At the time of his writing of the book he got an immediate feed-back and made a life-long friend. MacOfJesus (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for this pointer, I think you're on to something. In Simmons' novel, a character (the Scholar) has written a book called "The Abraham Problem". In the book he ponders the precieved injustice of God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son, and how this affects the relationship between humankind and God. I think there are clear parallels to be drawn between this, and the Book of Job, and "Answer to Job" might very well be what Simmons is referencing here. Zigorney (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I have written on the Article page: "Answer to Job" on the talk page placing in an "appraisal" and on his life-long-friend: Father Victor White, the article page; "the letters". The Book of Job is unique here. If you are serious in persuing this study, give me pointers here or on my talk page. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

C.G.Jung has a good article page. If you find the paragraph on Alcholocism and his treatment of Addicts you will find how deeply thinking and caring he was. MacOfJesus (talk) 15:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Karaite attitude towards adoption

The Letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon (c. 1100) mentions a Jew named Abu S'ad, 'Son of the Wife of the Tustari' as being held ransom by the Crusaders. S.D. Goitein believes the reason he is called this is because the wife of the Karaite religious commentator Sahl b. Fadl (Yashar b. Hesed) al-Tustari had been married prior to him and the son was the product of that union. The Tustari's were ungodly rich and had personal ties to the caliphs of Egypt, so the Crusaders were no doubt aware of this. My question is would Abu S'ad have been treated as a blood relative of the family? Could he have laid claim to the family wealth and prestige? All of this ties in with the ransom. Abu S'ad does not appear in any other letter from the Cairo Geniza, so his fate is unclear. This doesn't necessarily mean he died in that situation. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Karaites deny the validity of any Jewish oral tradition accompanying the written law of the Five Books of Moses. As such, there's no validity to the bloodline relationship of an adoptee. In fact, you could probably figure out their laws yourself, as all they do is read the words literally and apply that as religious practice. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Size of the Forbidden City

It is the biggest palace in China that still stands today. But I was wondering how come the Ming Dynasty built the palace to be so small in comparison to the palaces Han Dynasty and Tang Dynasty. Weiyang Palace and Daming Palace was more than twice its size. How come, with the ambition that Yongle Emperor had, he didn't try to outdo his predecessors.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The Yongle Emperor article says the palace was moved (necessitating the construction of the Forbidden City) for military reasons. Perhaps a smaller compound was considered more easily defended? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Helping poor students

What educational programs are available to help undernourished children of poor parents who are too busy to spend enough time helping them with their life skills and schoolwork and too poor to afford tutoring? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Boys and Girls Club? Their web site is here. Dismas|^(talk) 19:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of programs for such children, but you will need to specify the location you are interested in if we're going to be able to name the relevant ones. I'm guessing you are talking about somewhere in the developing world, since undernourishment isn't really part of poverty in the modern developed world. --Tango (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I am interested in all locations, including those in developed countries such as the US. Please see Poverty in the United States#Food security and the outline Hunger, malnutrition, and poverty in the contemporary United States: Some observations on their social and cultural context. (By the way, I found the article School Breakfast Program.) -- Wavelength (talk) 21:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Over Half of Teachers Report Buying Hungry Students Food With Their Own Money. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Other general articles you might read: After-school activity, No Child Left Behind Act (U.S.), Bursary, Scholarship, Child Nutrition Act (U.S.), Student financial aid, School meal, Community centre. I believe in practice the programs available differ widely by country and even by city. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for those links. I just found the article Share Our Strength. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I found Share Our Strength Latest News - Nat'l Teacher Survey Shows Many Children Too Hungry to Learn.

-- Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Was Tiberius a vegetarian?

Was Tiberius a vegetarian? Did he drink wine or hard alcoholic type drinks? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

He certainly drank wine and was actually considered a heavy drinker. According to Suetonius,

Even at the outset of his military career his excessive love of wine gave him the name of Biberius, instead of Tiberius, Caldius for Claudius, and Mero for Nero [Biberius Caldius Mero meaning roughly "mulled wine drinker"]. Later, when emperor and at the very time that he was busy correcting the public morals, he spent a night and two whole days feasting and drinking with Pomponius Flaccus and Lucius Piso, immediately afterwards making the one governor of the province of Syria and the other prefect of the city, and even declaring in their commissions that they were the most agreeable of friends, who could always be counted on. (...) He gave a very obscure candidate for the quaestorship preference over men of the noblest families, because at the emperor's challenge he had drained an amphora of wine at a banquet.

— Kpalion^(talk) 19:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If by "hard alcoholic type drinks" you mean distilled spirits, they didn't exist in Roman times. The standard Roman drink was (watered-down) wine. I've never heard of Tiberius being a vegetarian; perhaps you'd get better answers if you told us the reason for the question. FiggyBee (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Although watered-down wine was the standard drink, Tiberius seems to have prefered undiluted wine, which may have reinforced his reputation as a wino. Here's another quote from Suetonius: "now 'tis for blood he is thirsting; this he as greedily quaffs as before wine without water [Latin: merum]." — Kpalion^(talk) 22:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Mostly just curious. Also in all the bust images of him it appears he shaved and did not grow a beard. Looks like he had good hygiene. Would that be good assumptions? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, let me put it another way; what makes you think Tiberius may have been a vegetarian? As for being clean-shaven, it was the fashion of the time. You'll find very few if any Roman busts, statues or portraits of the early Empire with beards or long hair. FiggyBee (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, see Beard#Ancient_Rome. That fact tells you nothing about his personal hygiene. You can find out about hygiene in Roman civilization in general at Hygiene#History_of_hygienic_practices. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Tiberius as a vegetarian was 50-50 guess. Thanks gentlemen for your answers. --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

It's unlikely that Tiberius was a vegetarian. This source discusses how Seneca, a contemporary of Tiberius, was a vegetarian, but had to stop out of worries of falling out with the emporer. It says that during Tiberius's persecution of Christians, one of the criteria the emporer began to use to "prove" someone was a Christian was vegetarianism. So it doesn't seem likely Tiberius was one himself. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You really want to get "Diet on Capri" by Ronald Syme. I think the point he makes is that Tiberius was so paranoid about poisoning he became practically self-sufficient on Capri and therefore pretty much vegetarian. As Pliny the Elder, relates he really liked Cucumber#Roman Empire. meltBanana 03:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

WikiJedits, Tiberius never even HEARD of the Christians, much less persecuted them. In fact, generally, the biggest Roman-Empire-era persecutors of Christians were OTHER CHRISTIANS. Same or similar substance, etc. ... kill kill kill! What a loving bunch. 63.17.58.144 (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

May 9

Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto

I've heard repeated mention of an Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto which lists as its third charge against the West the independence of East Timor. What is this manifesto and where can it be read? 58.147.52.162 (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, when I hear "Bin Laden manifesto" my first thought is his 1998 "War Against Jews and Crusaders" fatwa. However, that document doesn't say anything about East Timor. This message does, but not as the third in a list of charges against the West. Are either one of those what you are looking for? --Cerebellum (talk) 02:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. The first time I heard of it was in Christopher Hitchens' answer to a question at the Freedom from Religion Foundation here at 0:30 (full presentation starts [here]):

What are some of the items in the Bin Laden / Al-Qaeda manifesto? Well, oddly enough -- and this was to my surprise; I thought it would be lower down -- item three in the charge against the West is that it reversed course on East Timor, tried to undo the genocide, brought East Timor to a referendum on independence, sent Sérgio Vieira de Mello, one of the greatest UN civil servants, to East Timor to supervise the transition to independence and the election and made East Timor the newest member of the UN. Bin Laden says, "for this we will never forgive the Christian Crusaders and their imperialist friends. They took away a republic from a Muslim land."

I was hoping to read the full source he was paraphrasing. 58.147.52.162 (talk) 14:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I Saw that video and searched for the manifesto myself. I believe I have found it, although East Timor is actually the fifth point that Bin Laden mentions. You can find it here.

Communist founders in London

Did Stalin really visit London, as this article suggests? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8658408.stm Could Marx and Lenin both speak english, as their using of the British Museum would imply? Engels ran a factory in Manchester I think and probably visited London - is there any founder of communism who had not lived in or at least visited London? What was the attraction of London to them? Thanks 92.24.17.70 (talk) 00:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

[I am pretty sure, that Engels' family owned textile factories works (in Wuppertal) and Engels did work "nine to five" in those until retirement, and also for a time in Manchester. He did, as far as I know, not run them. Both E and M, regardless of what one may think about their philosophy, were not "challenged" linguistically - M. wrote and spoke? a German/English mishmash (lots of code-switching), but both read books in tons of languages and wrote in some.--Radh (talk) 06:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)]

Stalin, along with Lenin, Trotsky, Gorky and others, visited London in 1907 (not 1905) for the 5th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. I think this was Stalin's only trip to Britain although Lenin traveled there a number of times. Stalin first met Lenin in Tampere in December 1905.--Cam (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As for other "founders of Communism", I don't think Mao Zedong probably ever visited London. Ho Chi Minh, however, did spend some time working in a London pub, which is a pretty amusing coincidence. I don't see any obvious evidence of Fidel Castro having visited London but I wouldn't rule it out (he did travel a bit before the Cuban Revolution). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

To answer the "attractiveness of London", remember that pre-WWI, London was likely the most affluent city in Europe, maybe even the world, having largely dodged most of the major continental wars that ran across Europe in the 19th century (Revolutions of 1848, Franco-Prussian War, etc) and Britain was, without a doubt, the pre-eminent world power prior to WWI (see Pax Britannica). Britain was a western liberal society, which valued freedom of expression and intellectualism. Also remember that prior to the 1920's, Comminism was a harmless pursuit of ivory-tower academics and intellectuals, not an oppressive totaliarian regime. Londoners, even if they knew that the major players in Russia's communist movement were hanging out among them, probably wouldn't have seen it as a big deal. --Jayron32 03:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Err, it's not true it was just for ivory tower academics pre-1920s. It was also something pursued by working class agitators, labor unions, and etc. Of which there were many in London. It would have been a pretty natural place for a budding communist to go for awhile. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

London was very much one of the epicentres of revolutionary activity in the latter-half of the 19th century and in the beginning of the 20th. Many organizations from the continent established their presence in the city, to conduct meetings and publish press outlets there. See for example the article on the Hebrew Socialist Union in London, seemingly the first Jewish socialist organization in the world. --Soman (talk) 15:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought Paris to have been the epicentre of revolutionary ativity considering it had given birth to the Communards, who had allegedly inspired anarchists everywhere, especially Russia.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Paris in the late-19th century would have been a more turbulent environment for the visiting communist than would have been London. (See French Third Republic.) It certainly was a hub of socialist/radical/anarchist activity. I'm not clear how much of a hub it would have been for international rallying—it seems like most of what was going on was specifically related to change in France. But I don't really know too much about France in this period, so I am admittedly out of my depth. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

@London, as a paradise for revolutionaries ca. 1848: see Alexander Herzen, perhaps via E. H. Carr's famous book on him.--Radh (talk) 06:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

William Robson translation of The Three Musketeers

William Robson's translation is not mentioned in the Editions section of The Three Musketeers. Though I don't think it was available since the 60s/70s, Borders Bookstores now sells their self-published edition using Robson's translation, which is both ornate and flowery and beautiful to read. But the Wikipedia article brings up a good point: omissions of language to comply with standards of the time. I've never been able to figure out when Robson's translation was written and if, in fact, it is abridged in parts. I may be forced to read Richard Pevear's translation, but I'm worried about its use of modern phrases. Does anyone here have any information on Robson's translation? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

According to this, William Robson's translation was published in 1853. According to this guy, Robson's translation is not "absurdly bowdlerized." Hope that helps. --Cerebellum (talk) 02:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely wonderful. Translation based on Dumas's own revised version, and spot-checked against Pevear, though I may have to double-check a few passages of my own. It never occurred to me that Google Books could be used in such a fashion. You've therefore answered my question and taught me something new. Thank you so much! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 03:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Glad I could help. : ) --Cerebellum (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Service of process

Removed. We cannot give legal advice here. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 21:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Homelessness resources in London

My 2nd favorite blogger in London, Penny Red, has just announced her impending homelessness. She's an early-20s smoker on this year's Orwell Prize short list. What resources are available for homeless women in London?

http://www.homelesslondon.org/details.asp?id=LP381

Are there any Londoners here with social networks capable of taking on a brilliant starving artist type as a couch surfer? 208.54.5.60 (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason why she cannot rent a flat please? Even if she has no income, then she should get Housing Benefit (and other benefit money also) which should be enough to rent a cheap and/or small flat or at least a room. Many landlords are acustomed to having tenants on benefits. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/On_a_low_income/DG_10018926 You can find out how much rent she would get paid here https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/Secure/Default.aspx For central London she should get paid at least £141 a week for the rent alone, plus other money to live off also. Some tenants of mine who live entirely off benefits just rung me up from Spain, where they are on holiday! 78.146.175.181 (talk) 11:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, people with no money in the UK are not forced to be homeless? It's been more than 10 years since I've visited, but I guess living in the US is actually more different than I ever imagined. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

No they are not. They do not starve or need medical treatment or go around in rags either. In my youth I spent some time living off benefits - due to enjoying the leisure time and freedom I have to admit - and my standard of living was like that of being a student. I did have enough money left over to spend on other things apart from the necessities. But if you spend your benefits on alcohol, drugs, smoking, or owning a car, then you will be short of money. 84.13.53.169 (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Would your youth have been in the '80s, by any chance? 86.180.48.37 (talk) 23:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Shelter are your go-to for housing advice: try here. She should phone their helpline on 0808 800 4444 straight away: they aim to help people avoid becoming homeless, as well as helping with access to emergency housing and more long-term solutions. If she hasn't actually left her home yet, they may be able to help her avoid that. For more detailed, general advice that might help deal with the underlying problems, she should contact her local Citizens Advice Bureau: here's the site that should help her find her nearest. This is something that you can't do for her: she has to speak to these people herself. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that you direct the person to The Manna Centre, one in South London near London Bridge and one in North London, they are drop-in-day Centres. From there advice is readily available and direction to suitable accommodation. Clothes and other necessities, clinics provided by local Councils, etc. Send me a note on my talk page if you need phone nos. etc. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Bernard Werber - 『Paradis sur Mesure』

Could anybody please tell me the names of the 17 chapters of Bernard Werber's novel 『Paradis sur Mesure』? both in French and in English? i've tried looking everywhere but couldn't find anything. thanks!!Johnnyboi7 (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The best I could do was this page from the Korean wikipedia, which has a list of the chapter titles in Korean. Google Translate gives this list of English titles, which unfortunately is pretty garbled. I'm not even going to attempt a French version.

"environmental destruction offender hanged," (a likely future) "Truth in the fingers" (short story interlude) "respecting the issue" (likely the past) "Flowers Sex" (a likely future) "lost civilization" (a likely future) "Murder in the Mist" (likely the past) "Tomorrow the girls" (a likely future) "Movie Masters" (a likely future) "Alignment of Paradise" (a likely future) "Sparrow ruin others" (likely the memories) "where jokes are born" (a likely future) "the teeth of the earth" (likely the past) "You're going to like" (a likely future) "brand war" (a likely future) "Scarecrow strategy" (likely the past) "Anti - Proverbs" (short story interlude) "Love in Atlantis" (likely the past)

Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 14:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

In French:

1. Et l'on pendra tous les pollueurs
2. Intermède : la vérité est dans le doigt
3. Question de respect
4. Le sexe des fleurs
5. Civilisation disparue
6. Meurtre dans la brume
7. Demain les femmes
8. Paradis sur mesure
9. Le maître du cinéma
10. Le moineau destructeur
11. Là où naissent les blagues
12. Les dents de la terre
13. Ça va vous plaire
14. La guerre des marques
15. La stratégie de l'épouvantail
16. Anti-proverbe
17. Un amour en Atlantide

AldoSyrt (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Sousa marches during religious ceremonies

I'm curious as to why John Philip Sousa military marches are played by bands during Catholic religious processions here in Italy? Stars and Stripes Forever is a particular favourite. When I queried my parish priest, he just looked blank. Jesus is supposedly a man of peace, yet the marches glorify warfare and make one eager to rush off to the nearest US Marines recruiting office than meditate upon God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Marches glorify warfare ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 09:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that my personal opinion, but its lyrics are martial (see article: Stars and Stripes Forever), and while patriotic also militant. Anyway, the marches are certainly not what anybody could possibly describe as dirges or hymns.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's possible that someone just liked the tune and decided to claim it for another use. Consider What Child is This?, which is set to the tune of Greensleeves. I want to say that using any kind of march for that purpose is strange, but it occurs to me that some of the hymns Martin Luther wrote have a martial tone, as does Onward, Christian Soldiers. Paul (Stansifer) 12:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Then there's the Battle Hymn of the Republic which is surely an oxymoron if there ever was!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

March tunes in general, by matching the rhythm of (usually brisk) walking (obviously), both encourage and usefully co-ordinate the walking of a collection of people, which may be as desirable for a religious procession as for a body of military persons, though the two categories may overlap: the Christian Church has had quasi-military overtones for most of its existence right up to the present day; think of concepts and organisations such as "the Church Militant", the Salvation Army, etc. The Battle Hymn of the Republic, for example, was in my (English) Methodist hymnal at school and had no particular US or literal military associations for us.

Those who choose the musical programme for a particular religious event may well be interested in using works most musically various and interesting for the players, and uplifting or otherwise emotionally appropriate for the other participants and audience (and with scores for the band readily available), without worrying so much about the possible associations of lyrics which will not be sung and which, as in Jeanne Boleyn's example, are in a language foreign to most of those present. In the converse case of actual military marching displays (several of which I have attended, being an Army brat) non-military march-time pieces are often used - the theme tune of Thunderbirds has long been popular, for example. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The month March derives its name from Mars, the Roman god of war. I imagine the word march, for the music genre, also gets its name from the same source.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I would have guessed a similar association, but according to the Oxford English Dictionary the musical form's name derives, as one would expect, from the verb describing a manner of walking (often but by no means always done in a military context), but the verb itself derived in the 12-century from the French verb marcher which meant to tread or trample, and

"the etymology of French marcher is obscure; the prevailing view is that the oldest recorded sense 'to trample' was developed from a sense 'to hammer', and that the word represents a Gaulish Latin marcare, from Latin marcus hammer."

Thus, although (as the OED says elsewhere) various European cognates of 'march' (verb) came quite early to be associated with an often military style of walking, the word's origin is non-military and unconnected with Mars (whose name derives from archaic Latin Mavors, probably cognate with Oscan Mamers). Isn't etymology fascinating? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree! Jeanne, go and tell him. For if I were there listening I would. Your phrase comes to mind: "Jesus, wept", a quote from Saint John's Gospel, over the dead Lazurus. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

To me, there is nothing spiritual about Sousa marches. I cannot imagine Stars and Stripes Forever inspiring a person to do anything but march in time under the Old Glory dreaming of battles fought and won in foreign lands. Oh BTW, Jesus wept is an old Irish expression used to express disbelief, disgust, outrage or surprise. I use it all the time.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I have heard the expression before, but it does come from Saint John. Jesus also wept over Jerusalem (Saint John again). As you say Military Marches have no place in a Church setting! We agree! MacOfJesus (talk) 08:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not complaining about the use of Sousa marches in processions; in point of fact, they jazz them up and get the faithful to walk at a quicker pace. I was just curious-and amused. Alas, my former parish priest had not an ounce of humour, or knowledge of American history, I daresay.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

When I was in Lourdes last, we had a trip up to Gavannie a little village up in the mountains, where they still have snow in May/June. As we were going up near Pont Napoleon a shop of Alpine gear was meant to be playing Alpine Folk Music, instead they were playing Irish Ceili Music; The Fureys & Davie Arthur! How out of place is that? Maybe it is just me? When we said something they changed it to pure Ceili Band Music! MacOfJesus (talk) 16:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I have a Davy Arthur story to tell but this isn't the place for it. It hard to accociate him with Lourdes.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

This was 20miles into the mountains on Pont Napoleon many miles from Dublin among all the Alpine knitware. The natives say that if you were to throw youself off Pont Napoleon you would have time to say the full Confiteor before you hit the ground! But nobody can be sure for certain. I was priveleged in being at Davy A. & The Fureys last concert! But to get back to the original point; I would react strongly to bad Liturgy and untimely music. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

"Know Thyself" by Dr John Arbuthnot

Resolved

I have been asked by a freemason if I know about this poem which he says is supposed to be written by Dr. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735). It rings a bell but not in connection with the polymath. Can anybody help please? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Got it. Alexander Pope. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Twelve Caesars

Petrarch researched and wrote "bios" on Julius Caesar and other famous ancient Romans in his Illustrious Men. Is it quite likely he would have reseached and studied all of The Twelve Caesars? Would he have likely obtained the information on the 12 Caesars from Livy or Suetonius or both or other sources?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

He got it directly from Suetonius. See this book, for example, or this one. Basically Petrarch knew Suetonius very well and intentionally copied him. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Great answers Adam Bishop. Very helpful. Thank you very much.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Forbidden artifacts

I was reading the article regarding the Imperial Regalia of Japan, which is about three ancient mythical objects (a sword, a mirror and a jewel) that can be seen, more or less, only by the Emperor of Japan and few other very selected people. Are there any other example of important historical artifacts known to exist, officially stated as real, but forbidden to almost every person in the world (no allowed scientific/archaelogical studies, no photos, no pictures...)?--151.51.60.165 (talk) 11:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The one that springs instantly to my mind is the Ark of the Covenant which is claimed to be held in Ethiopia. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Is it Ethiopia? I always thought stuff like that was in the Vatican, and only Robert Langdon is allowed in there. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church claims to have the original ark at the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion. Only a single monk is allowed to see it. Naturally, most historians doubt that if there's any relic at all, it's truly the original Ark. See this article. Replicas of the Ark, known as tabots, are used widely by the Ethiopian's. Buddy431 (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Museum of Anthropology at UBC holds at least one artefact which can only be viewed by the holy men of the First Nations tribe which created it - even in the reference collection, its presence is signified by an explanatory note, rather than the artefact itself, which is in a sealed box in the store. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This reminds me of a picture I saw about 25 years ago at the National Gallery of Victoria - or, rather, didn't see. I was just browsing away, when I came across an object that seemed to be a small canvas covered by a sheet of white material. The description said something about the artist not wanting the world to see his work, so he displays it covered up. The NGV was wanting its patrons to accept that there was something of artistic merit beneath the cover, but in keeping with the artist's wishes, was not allowing them to actually see it. We just had to take the NGV's word for it. I still wonder what the point of that exercise was. A much better idea would have been to say to the artist "Of course we respect your wish not to display your work. When and if you ever change your mind, give us a call and we'll see if we're interested in showing any of them - but that will mean showing them and not taking up valuable wall space with covered works that nobody can see". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the DPRK have a whole host of niknacks that they keep under lock and key for only Kim Jong-Il to see? Or that citizens are only allowed to see once in their life? I recall seeing something like that on the Vice Guide to North Korea... flagitious 06:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagitious (talk • contribs)

John Wilkes Booth's fiancée

Resolved

Does anyone have an exact birthdate and death date for Lucy Lambert Hale, the secret fiancée of John Wilkes Booth? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

shhh! it's supposed to be a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's out now!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

She died October 15, 1915.[12] I haven't found a birthdate more precise than the year 1842.--Cam (talk) 18:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Aha! Her gravestone gives her birth as Jan. 1. 1841.--Cam (talk) 18:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This is great. Thanks a million for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The information you provided came in handy for Lucy Lambert Hale's article which I created this morning. Thanks again. The reference desk has come through yet again!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Virginia Politicians

Does anyone know of any notable Virginia politicians from before the civil war? The politicians must of have been born in Virginia ex. James Madison. 72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Why must Virginian politicians be born in Virginia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Patrick Henry, Nathaniel Bacon, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, John Tyler, John Johns Trigg, etc. Oh, there are so many. Why not look up the category: Politicians from Virginia? I'm sure there's a list somewhere!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Here it is:List of people from Virginia--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! That should be enough!72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Does abject poverty exist in Western Europe and/or the USA?

For the purpose of this question, "abject poverty" is loosely defined as "malnutrition owing to poverty". If not, when (abouts) would it have ended?--Leon (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd say the majority of homeless people should fit into a category as such, and many of these people exhibit malnutrition. You can find them living on the New York City Transit Authority trains and in places like Central Park. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I did say Western Europe and the USA, and thus am not disagreeing with you immediately, in Southern England more specifically that is not my observation. I do no observe them suffering malnutrition, or even anything very close.

If "owing to poverty" is preface by "directly" (meaning they have neither the capital nor the social support to feed themselves healthily), does the picture change? If "malnutrition" is replaced with "starvation", does it change again?--Leon (talk) 17:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I have seen reports that there are places in the UK where some people are unable to afford decent food and exhibit a degree of malnutrition as a result. Unfortunately my Google-fu has deserted me and I can't find the article on the BBC website regarding this. Most UK cases of malnutrition appear to occur among those who have health problems [13]. This report also claims that British teenagers are at risk of malnutrition, but mainly because of poor food choices. [14] --TammyMoet (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Malnutrition is certainly present in the United States. Depending on how you draw the line, the number of malnourished people in the US is between 17 million and 49 million, according to the Food Research and Action Center. See also Malnutrition#United States. Note also that the US has the problem that the cheapest foods tend to be unhealthy, so just because someone has enough money to buy the calories they need doesn't mean that they're able to get properly nourished. Paul (Stansifer) 18:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

You make a good point. A recent question asked about undernourishment, which I don't think does really exist in the modern world (there will be people that don't get enough food, but they could if they claimed the various benefits they are entitled to), but that doesn't mean there isn't malnourishment. I think a large part of the problem is lack of education rather than lack of money, though - you can eat a healthy balanced diet on a very low budget if you know how (try rice, for example, as a very cheap healthy carbohydrate and protein source). --Tango (talk) 18:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The will be a small number of people who aren't entitled to any benefits, such as people who have made themselves intentionally unemployed, or illegal immigrants, but the numbers are small enough that they can be served by charitable facilties such as soup kitchens and so are unlikely to be undernourished. Warofdreams talk 19:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

There are a large number of legal immigrants who cannot get benefits - people from the EU A8 countries who are not working, for example. --Phil Holmes (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

While it is over 100 years old, I would strongly suggest anyone thinking a large part of the problem is lack of education read Round about a pound a week. Among other things, it details the well-meaning attempts at educating the poor in cheap nutrition, which sadly ignore the practical realities of their lives. While I could feed myself very cheaply and nutritiously, the very cheapest options are quite time-consuming and likely to get boring very quickly. They would be difficult to sustain a child on. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 20:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Round About a Pound a Week. The People of the Abyss by Jack London gives another picture of the poverty in the east end of London around 1900, but things have changed a lot since then, including the NHS which started in 1948. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Things have changed a lot, some of it thanks to exactly these books, but they are still important to make people think. "Educating" people on how to feed themselves nutritiously without taking the details of their lives into account is an easy trap to fall in to, and I've seen it repeatedly in modern times. From "Round About a Pound a Week":

"[A doctor] ended his course by telling his audience that, if they wished to do good to the children of the poor, they would do more towards effecting their purpose if they were to walk through East End streets with placards bearing the legend "MILK is the proper food for infants" than by taking any other action he could think of. (...) He was, however, wrong in his idea that poor women do not realise that milk is the proper food for infants. The reason why the infants do not get milk is the reason why they do not get good housing or comfortable clothing - it is too expensive."

Especially still pertinent is this section below, on the well-meaning nutritional advice given to mothers. Porridge oats are cheap, and porridge seems a nutritious thing to suggest for children's breakfasts...

"The visitors in this investigation hoped to carry with them a gospel of porridge to the hardworking mothers of families in Lambeth. The women of Lambeth listened patiently, according to their way, agreed to all that was said, and did not begin to feed their families on porridge. Being there to watch and note rather than to teach and preach, the visitors waited to hear, when and how they could, what the objection was. It was not one reason, but many. Porridge needs long cooking; if on the gas, that means expense; if on an open fire, constant stirring and watching just when the mother is most busy getting the children up. Moreover, the fire is often not lit before breakfast. It was pointed out that porridge is a food which will keep when made. It could be cooked when the children are at school and merely warmed up in the morning. The women agreed again, but still no porridge. It seemed, after further patient waiting on the part of the visitors, that the husbands and children could not abide porridge - to use the expressive language of the district, "they 'eaved at it."

"Why? Well, cooked the day before, and eaten with milk and sugar, all children liked porridge. But the mothers held up their hands. Milk! Who could give milk - or sugar either, for that matter? Of course, if you could give them milk and sugar, no wonder! They might eat it then, even if it was a bit burnt. Porridge was an awful thing to burn in old pots if you left it a minute; and if you set the pot flat on its bottom instead of holding it all to one side to keep the burnt place away from the flames, it would "ketch" at once. An' then, if you'd happened to cook fish or "stoo" in the pot for dinner, there was a kind of taste come out in the porridge. It was more than they could bear to see children who was 'ungry, mind you, pushin' their food away or 'eavin at it. So it usually ended in a slice of "bread and marge" all round, and a drink of tea, which was the breakfast they were accustomed to."

A family living on benefits or minimum wage in the UK still faces many of these same problems in eating nutritiously and cheaply. As a century ago, they do not have the money to buy in bulk, driving up prices. They have limited space and equipment for cooking: families housed in B&Bs or equivalent often have no access to cooking equipment or refrigerated storage. Even in proper council housing, decent cooking equipment can be scarce. Systems are in place to help, but the processes are long and convoluted, taking a long time and requiring you to know which hoops to jump through. They cannot afford to make the 'nice' versions of healthy food, making it more likely that the children will refuse it. Living on a tight budget, they cannot afford to buy and prepare food which is not eaten. Think of how much it improves cheap cooking to have access to herbs and spices: that is an initial outlay that can't always be budgeted for. Bread is cheap, and children eat it. Utility costs for cooking are also a factor.

Seriously, we've come a long way, but living on benefits under the current system is not easy or pleasant. Is it made easier by advice like this? Supposedly, this is a low-cost option. Have a look at the proposed menus for the parent living on a budget: notice how many packets of things you would have to buy to provide the variety they say is "required to ensure that they are nutritionally balanced". How much would that cost, as an initial outlay? How much food would go off before you went round the cycle and needed another fruit fromage frais, or another pitta? Look at the investment of time, and the high risk of the child not liking the food that you bought a whole packet of. This is advice issued in 2010. Faced with experts saying this was required, and a hungry child, wouldn't you just feed the child anything they'd eat? 86.180.48.37 (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The sandwich recipies seem designed for middle-class families buying things at supermarkets, not those on the dole. I think you are exaggerating the problem - if people refuse to help themselves or put any effort in, such as not looking for a job or living hedonistically, then they are going to doom themselves to a bad situation. Smokers, drinkers, and drivers are going to be short of money. The benefits and health system in the UK works well and means people never have the same fears or worries that they do on the other side of the altlantic. Its foolish to use a set of up-market recipes, material from 1913, or imagining passively hedonistic families as evidence to to condem it. People on the dole are not really entitled to epicure food served by a butler, and by the way you can buy a large cannister of dried mixed herbs in Tescos for 15p. The key need may be that of teaching people how to do simple cookery, such as rice or pasta or cooking vegetables. Many less-well off people have no idea how to cook, in my experience, so have no choice but to eat bad and/or expensive food. I would make cookery and nutrition lessons in schools compulsory for both genders. I understand that "home economics" is rarely taught in schools nowerdays, and that may be a root cause of the problem. 78.146.87.143 (talk) 09:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

As I made very clear, the point of the 1913 text is in raising the issues. The advice from 2010 is advice given out in state primary schools to all parents, not just the middle-class ones. It is not upmarket. And it is very similar to the advice that was on a government website about 5 years ago, aimed at parents in general. It is 'middle-class' food, but that is because the people who write this sort of thing 'educating' parents on how to feed their children are themselves middle-class. I have never claimed that the poorest should receive "epicure food served by a butler", simply that education is not the main reason poorer families (who are at least as likely to be buying things in supermarkets, given they are cheap and accessible. I don't know where you were coming from there) are likely to be eating less-than-ideal food. As someone who lived for a good few months with cheap vegetable stock cubes for my main seasoning, I feel able to say that a large cannister of dried mixed herbs is not the way to variety of flavour, nor will it allow you to cook much: you need 4 or 5 separate herbs and spices, which will cost more.

The whole "it's just lack of education" argument is tied up in a very ugly way with class, in the UK: notice how you said "middle-class families" as a contrast for those living on the dole. In reality, particularly in this economic climate, many middle-class families find themselves having to claim benefits and are shocked to find how difficult and time-consuming it is to start receiving money (because the system assumes they are trying to defraud it), how little they get (most people assume benefits are twice as high as reality), how hard it is to make ends meet, harder because they will not have received any money in the time they were working through the system. I'm not talking about passive hedonists (the hell?), I'm talking about the practicalities of living on very little. The assumption that the working class (and that is what is meant, when they are contrasted with 'middle-class families') are too stupid and ignorant to know that they should eat less fat and sugar and more fruit and vegetables, often tied to the idea that if only the working classes could be more middle class everything would be fine, is all-pervasive. Look at the outcry when the government suggested middle-class people drinking a bottle of wine an evening should cut down: compare it to the reaction when the government cracks down on cheap cider or pubs that allow people to get very drunk. It's an irregular verb: I like a drink to relax, you are an alcoholic, they are binge-drinkers. I like good food, you occasionally pig-out, they don't understand nutrition. I'm sometimes tired and make something quick, you know a few short-cuts in the kitchen, they can't cook properly.

A higher proportion of the middle-class people I've known have shown a shocking lack of food knowledge than working-class people: wasteful stuff like roasting a chicken and only using the breast. But one of the things that makes roast chicken an affordable thing for me is that I use the carcass in the week for chicken sandwiches, chicken curry, and chicken soup. That requires me to have: enough refrigerator space and equipment to put chicken carcass in (a large tupperware box); curry paste or suitable mix of spices; a saucepan or pressure cooker large enough to fit a chicken carcass in; time to supervise the boiling; a working hob; the ability to afford gas to continuously heat the pan with for long enough; a blender or masher. Roasting the chicken requires me to have: a roasting pan of the right size; a working oven; tin foil. This isn't to make it especially nice, this is just to make it possible. Given access to all these things, I can make a roast chicken give 2 or 3 main meals plus sandwiches for 2 to 4 people: this is very cheap. Without access to those things, I cannot provide these cheap, nutritious meals. There have been many times over the years when I have lacked some of these, and then I have been unable to cook these things. I know quite a lot about cooking and food, but there have been times when I have been faced with the same cheap, relatively healthy mush for the fourth day in a row, and I have bought a happy meal instead, in the full knowledge that it was bad for me. Because I couldn't even afford edible cheese. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to what points you are trying to make - would they be a) that living on the dole does not give you enough money to buy fresh herbs or booze? and b) that middle-class people patronise people on the dole who are not in fact ignorant or uneducated regarding nutrition as the middle-classes suppose? and c) that a lot of middle-class people are on the dole? 92.29.62.136 (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Simple lack of food is more of a problem than that in industrialized nations. For one thing, if food stamps can't cover the whole cost of food, someone might chose to just not eat as much in order to have money for, say, the medication they need. Also, the soup kitchens are often mainly providing food to people who would otherwise be forced to eat junk, so they're well-utilized already.

Nutritional education is certainly very important, but note that there are other difficulties in eating healthily on the cheap. If you don't have a stove, for example, you just can't eat rice. I seem to remember that Nickel and Dimed had quite a few times in which the author discovered, to her surprise, that many ways to live cheaply are only available to people who have some money in the first place. Paul (Stansifer) 21:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

These five links may be helpful.

• Living on Less - food poverty and malnutrition
• More than 3m Britons at risk of malnutrition, reports says | Society | guardian.co.uk
• Now we've got to save the children living in poverty in Britain | Mail Online
• 30. Malnutrition and Income: Are We Being Misled? (A Dissenting View with a Confusing Literature)
• List of countries by percentage of population suffering from undernourishment

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The situation in the United States is certainly different from the situation in most of western Europe. There are millions of people here who are not entitled to "benefits" or whose "benefits" are insufficient for adequate nutrition. Many of them go through periods of hunger, interspersed with periods with a stomach full of junk food. Others who get benefits or wages that could provide adequate nutrition nonetheless subsist on junk food (including most fast food) mainly because a lack of education. That said, even in the United States, you hardly ever see children with distended bellies or hear of deaths from starvation. Marco polo (talk) 15:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

If some people "hardly ever see" those things, that could be because they hardly ever visit underprivileged ghettos, and because they usually obtain news from the corporate media, which hardly ever report on those things. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I am frankly a bit offended by this comment, as I do pass through some very poor neighborhoods and have in the past worked as a tenant organizer in very poor communities in the United States. Moreover, I actively seek out alternative news sources. According to this organization devoted to fighting hunger in the United States, "starvation seldom occurs in this country". And they would have every reason to highlight if it occurred more often. Distended bellies are a symptom of kwashiorkor. This source states that kwashiorkor is "rare in the United States". This hospital likewise reports that it is "very rare". None of these sources can be called corporate media. If you visited "underprivileged ghettos" in the United States as I have, you'd know as well as I do that you generally do not see distended bellies. Before subjecting comments by others to ignorant criticism, I suggest you consult reputable sources. Marco polo (talk) 19:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Will Rogers said, "America has its poor people, but they're the richest poor in the world." There's no excuse for anyone to starve in America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Are the richest poor rich enough to get free health care? 78.146.176.116 (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The usual question in the US is whether they are poor enough to get government benefits. FYI, there is no such thing as "free" health care. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a "no" then. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly. The premise of your question is false. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Marco polo, I meant no offense. The basis for my comment is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I found three more links.

• Overweight and Undernourished in America | Newsdesk.org (08 July 2009)
• YouTube - American Poverty-Homless and Starvation On the RIse [sic] (3:05) (I found this by searching on YouTube for "starvation america".)
• Google labs - public data "Malnutrition prevalence, weight for age (% of children under 5)"

-- Wavelength (talk) 22:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

In the UK the poorest people are usually the fattest, making a sweeping generalisation. They get enough calories, but due to ignorance or sometimes possibly not being able to buy fresh fruit and veg in a few of the most deprived areas, eat junk food. The second link in the group above refers to the elderly, and this often overlooked group may not be feeding themselves very well. Edit: a root cause may be that in my experience many people have no idea how to cook, so they can only eat pricey junk food. Showing people how to do simple cookery of pasta rice and vegetables would help greatly. 78.146.176.116 (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I did a Google search for school cafeteria junk food site:.edu, and the second result was Junk Food, Marketing, and Behavior - WikEd.

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

See World Hunger Notes -- 2008 United States Hunger Facts and Poverty Facts by World Hunger Education Service.

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Virginia Attractions

Does anyone know of attractions to Virginia before the Civil War? Why would people settle or visit there? What was there to see? 72.94.161.188 (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but the Reference Desk will not do your homework for you. Xenon54 (talk) 19:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This is not homework, i would just like to know before the civil war were there any notable attractions in Virginia?72.94.161.188 (talk) 19:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Surely Mount Vernon qualifies. Then take a look at the categories at the bottom of the page and you'll see there are several Virginia historical categories there. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

This does not sound like a homework question to me. If it were a homework question, I think it would probably be asking about before the Revolutionary War. In any case, the soils in Virginia are much less rocky than is typical in New England, but the climate is still temperate enough to grow crops familiar to European colonists which would not fare as well in the Carolinas or Georgia. And it's coastal geography is rich with harbors and bays, allowing for easy sea and river transport. The forests are still thick with useful lumber trees, and of course there are several coal seams near the surface, and exposed in places making their evidence clear and easy for prospectors. Between the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, Coastal Virginia was rich with agriculture, industry, commerce, and education. Tourists would have been attracted to the celebrities of the the D.C. area, as well. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

History of Virginia will be a starting point - there are two hundred years of (European colonial) history prior to the Civil War. Surely you're heard of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson??? Acroterion _(talk) 20:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Question for the OP: Do you mean placed that people who lived in Virginia would have visited before the civil war OR do you mean places that you can visit today that existed before the civil war did? Because the answer to the first question is likely nowhere since the modern tourism/vacation industry didn't really get cracking until the 20th century. As far as the answer to the second question, there's Monticello and Mount Vernon, there's natural sites like lots of stuff in the Shenandoah Valley, which has been there millions of years. Lots of pre-Civil war historical sites are in the Hampton Roads area, like Colonial Williamsburg, Jamestown, stuff like that. --Jayron32 03:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that there was no such thing as tourism in North America before about 1800, but during the early 1800s, it began to be fashionable to visit spas. The main example in Virginia would have been Hot Springs, Virginia. Other than that, people traveled mainly for economic reasons. The main reasons people came to Virginia, mainly during the 1700s, in addition to the reasons listed above (ability to grow European crops, but better soils than the New England colonies, easy access to trade with England and the West Indies via the Chesapeake Bay and its many arms, a good supply of lumber), I would add that there was a large supply of land in the interior available to farmers who were willing to clear it for little or no cost. Also, like other American colonies, Virginia, particularly along its interior frontier offered relative freedom from the religious and class constraints of Europe. In addition, Virginia was well suited to growing tobacco, a lucrative crop. Finally, don't forget that many of those who came to Virginia before the Civil War came unwillingly as victims of the transatlantic slave trade. Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Searching for a short story title and author

I read a story a number of years ago about a writer in a European country who wrote a short story which was read by the "wrong" people in his country & misinterpreted as to its political content. He was forced to move to another country with his wife. This process repeated itself in the new country when he published his story and so on, so on until he finally came to the US where thought he would have complete freedom of expression. But, it happened again. I think it was an American author and am fairly sure it was written after (maybe during) the McCarthy era. Can anyone direct me to the story and its author? Thanks in advance. ProfePerson (talk) 22:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not certain if its the same person at all, but could you be thinking of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn? He was basically thrown out of the Soviet Union for his writings critical of the Communist regime there. He live in Germany, Switzerland, and the U.S. for some time, and was also critical of the excesses of the western lifestyle, though AFAIK there was no effort to actually kick him out of any of THOSE countries. --Jayron32 03:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

For Whom the Bell Tolls

Hello all. I am doing a report on the book For Whom the Bell tolls, of which a plot summary is a part. I have most of the summary done, but I can't quite figure out which is the climax: the blowing of the bridge or the very end, when Jordan sights down the Lieutenant as his final act. It seems both build tension, and I would probably pick the first, but I'm told that tension shouldn't build anytime agter the climax. Can someone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.248.227.1 (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Consider that Hemingway's plot might not correspond exactly to a theoretically ideal structure. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

See the Dénouement article; and consider that there are other possibilities rather than just these two. A single paragraph in the book doesn't have to constitute the entire climax. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The climax has got to be: ... "The Bell Tolls for Thee"... and the full quotation. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

May 10

dedicatee's last name

I recently read, "Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes," by Eleanor Coerr. When I did a little more research I learned she was aided by a missionary who was living in Japan. In the opening pages, the dedicatee's name is Laura. Apparently, that was the missionary's name. But I'd like to find out Laura's last name. If more information is available, please let me know. Thank you so very much.24.90.204.234 (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The only information I could find was on this bio page of the author herself. It doesn't mention the missionary's name. Maybe you could contact the publishing company and ask them to relay this question on to the author. On a side note, I am very surprised to hear that there were missionaries living in Hiroshima during WW2, so I too would be interested in finding out more about this person. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Identifying flags - The Hippodrome Theater, 1905

I direct you to this picture put up on Shorpy today: http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/4a12613a.jpg. Obviously it being black and white confounds identifying every single one, but there are a couple I'm not sure about:

1) What is the one two to the right of the Turkish flag, directly adjacent to what appears to be the Argentinian flag? Sri Lanka wasn't a country.

2) 2 to the right of 1)

3) 2 to the left of the Turkish flag. Looks like the present-day Andorran flag, but they were of course not a formal entity back in 1905 so that can't be it.

4) On the far right, left of what is presumably the American flag. Unless I'm seeing this wrong it's the Portuguese flag (only adopted in 1911 after the young King Manuel II was deposed) except with three vertical bands instead?

5) 9th flag from the left.

The rest seem a bit too blurry to make out, but if anyone could do the rest as well that'd be interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlmostCrimes (talk • contribs) 03:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

http://i.ebayimg.com/06/!Br1sNmQ!mk~$%28KGrHqQOKjoEvO0ucsKfBL1bORUPTw~~_3.JPG I've found a postcard that is LIKELY from the same time that's in color! AlmostCrimes (talk) 03:30, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi, two comments: 1) the first link doesn't work, at least for me, and 2) you should bear in mind the possibility that whoever hand-colored (?) the postcard might not have actually seen the flags, and just filled in whichever colors he/she found appropriate. Jørgen (talk) 11:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Huh, that's curious. http://www.shorpy.com/node/8145 should definitely work. AlmostCrimes (talk) 15:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

And there we go, I seem to have neglected to notice the comment already there. Italian flag's a curious one. Thanks anyway.AlmostCrimes (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Great-great-great grandparents of Charles II of Spain

How many Great-great-great grandparents did Charles II of Spain have out of 32 possible Great-great-great grandparents? Can someone do the genealogy for me? It doesn't matter that some of his Great-great-great grandparents were also the fathers or mothers of his other Great-great-great grandparents, I just the number of his Great-great-great grandparents without repeats? I trying to compare European inbreeding and Hawaiian inbreeding. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Does this image help? (On the Charles II of Spain article it says "note the large amount of inbreeding", heh). Adam Bishop (talk) 05:07, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

No, really the whole different line thing is really messing with my head. Can anybody give me a specific number? I found Keopuolani had only 13 out of 32 possible Great-great-great grandparents by adding an extra genetration on the ancestry box and then crossing out the same people in that generation. Can someone do the same for Charles II of Spain? I would do it but it took me a really long time to just do this one and I'm really tired.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This image here: File:Carlos segundo80.png implies that most of the thirty-two slots are filled by two people: Philip I of Castile and his wife Joanna the Mad. It is complicated by generational jumps (for example, his father and mother were uncle-neice). It appears that all but 6 of the 32 possible Great-great-great grandparents "slots" were Philip and Joanna, or direct decendents thereof (that is, depending on the path taken, one could make the same person either a great-great-great grandparent or a great-great-grandparent). The only exceptions I can find is Francis I, Duke of Lorraine, Albert V, Duke of Bavaria, Manuel I of Portugal, his wife Maria of Aragon and Castile (who was actually a sister of Joanna the Mad), Vladislas II of Hungary, and Anna of Foix-Candale. Numerous decendents of Philip and Joanna also could count as "5 generations back" from Charles II, depending on how you count, for example Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor appears to count as one of the 32 slots, as does Charles II of Austria, while Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor seems to count for at least 2. You'll have to play around with that chart to get an exact number, but at MY count, I get all of the following as possible "5 generations back" ancestors:

1. Philip I of Castile
2. Joanna the Mad
3. Francis I, Duke of Lorraine
4. Albert V, Duke of Bavaria
5. Manuel I of Portugal
6. Maria of Aragon and Castile
7. Vladislas II of Hungary
8. Anna of Foix-Candale
9. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor*
10. Charles II of Austria*
11. Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor*
12. Archduchess Anna of Austria*
13. Christina of Denmark*
14. Isabella of Portugal$

Several of these (marked with * or $) are decendents of other great-great-great grandparents, * = decendent of Philip and Joanna, while $ = decendent of Manuel I and Maria of Aragon & Castile. Also, as noted, Maria of A&C was a sister of Joanna the Mad, so there's some complications there as well. I hope that helps. At my count, then, that gives 14 different individuals would could be counted as 5 generational steps back from Charles II, though as noted, all but 8 of these were themselves sons or daughters of other people already on the list.--Jayron32 05:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. It's amazing that sibling marriages were almost equal to the inbreeding within the House of Habsburg.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on pedigree collapse. The German version has more on examples of European royals. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh my god! [[Keopuolani had a maximum of only 18 out fo 64 great-great-great-great grandparents compared to Charles II's 32 out of 64. By the way thanks!--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:07, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

UK Election

Is Quentin Davies who is now not an MP still Minister of state for Defence Equipment and Support? Kittybrewster ☎ 06:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe that, until such a time as a new Prime Minister is invited to form a new Government by the Queen, both the Prime Minister and all department heads maintain their positions indefinately. There is also no requirement that either the PM or any of the other ministers are actually MPs. For practical reasons, the PM is always a member of the House of Commons, but that is a pragmatic concern, and not a constitutional requirement. So, AFAIK, constitutionally speaking, there is no requirement for ANY member of the government or the cabinet, including the Prime Minister, to also be a member of the House of Commons, though most (possibly nearly all) usually are. --Jayron32 06:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

See [15] and [16] for example. Gabbe (talk) 08:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

In practice we're still in Purdah so not having a minister isn't really an issue. No major procurement contracts are likely to be agreed until such time as the new government is appointed.

It does raise an interesting issue of clearances, as MPs aren't formally vetted, they have a right of access by virtue of their position. So essentially members of the public are part of government and have access to some potentially very sensitive material yet don't have the clearances to allow them to.

ALR (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Hm I'm not sure they're "not formally vetted": I believe (this is OR due to my involvement with the political system over the years) that security clearance is informally sought for each candidate in each election as soon as their nomination papers are received by the officials. I'm not sure whether this extends to their nominees though. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

MI5 give the PM advice of whether prospective ministers can be trusted. I don't think regular MPs are vetted in any way. --Tango (talk) 18:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Security Service advise the PM on any risks to the compromise of an MP that he or she is considering appointing to certain posts. The PM may or may not appoint. They don't have any vetting status, as such. Essentially one can't call up FCO Services, Defence Vetting Agency or the Met and ask for the question as one would for Civil Serpents, military or external advisors.

MPs don't have any vetting as a matter of routine and don't have any right of access to government information. They ask questions either through PQs or FOIA requests.

ALR (talk) 20:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Ironically enough, once Jim Knight is replaced as Employment minister, he'll be unemployed... ╟─TreasuryTag►inspectorate─╢ 20:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Soviet dissidents - quoting and denouncing

I once heard a story about Soviet dissidents, it goes something like this: In order to get criticism of the Soviet Union into print they would quote a critic (Western or otherwise), ostensibly to denounce him. So you quote the critic for a page, then denounce him for a paragraph, then quote him again at length and then briefly denounce him again and so on.

Is there any truth to this story? If there is, does anyone have a decent source which mentions this? Haukur (talk) 09:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything about that, but it does remind me of a certain style of 19th-century supposedly "outraged" journalism, which apparently went something like this: "How long will Mademoiselle Fifi be permitted to continue to perpetrate her debauched exhibitions of terpsichorean lasciviousness which are corrupting the very moral fabric of this community, every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday evening at 7 o'clock in the second-story rooms at 123 State Street, admission price fifty cents? How long?" -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Haha, good one :D Haukur (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The real dissidents were excommunicated. The practice did in fact exist, but those were men and women of the establishment, not dedicated opponents of the regime. And their topics were usually limited to something specific and manageble rather than wholesome critic of the system. East of Borschov (talk) 15:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the correction - this would indeed not be something a full-blown samizdat-publishing dissident would do. Nevertheless, I would be interested in any specific example or source you could think of. Haukur (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure excommunication is the word you're looking for? Marnanel (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

He made a funny. Check out what he linked to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I used to hear that the comedians in Russia could venture into political topics if they kept it to impersonal subjects like bureaucratic red tape, which was probably a frustration even for the country's leaders. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Excommunication in a clerical state was a very serious matter. East of Borschov (talk) 18:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

So was what the editor linked to, which was Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union. In the old days, getting excommunicated could cause you a lot of trouble. Nowadays excommunication only matters if you think the Catholic Church matters. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It's still administered when believed necessary by many Protestant denominations as well. Nyttend (talk) 21:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

And the same principle applies. A church can no longer send you to Siberia or burn you at the stake. All they can do is tell you to get out and stay out. "Excommunication" in the USSR was not at all a good thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

UK election results

Hi, do anyone know of a place to download full UK parliament election results, by constituency? The official page surprisingly says they won't put the results up for some time, and most other places I can find (such as BBC) has only fancy color graphs for the constituencies and a summary table for the country as a whole. I'd like a text file such as CSV or some sort of easily copy-and-paste-able HTML table. Any help appreciated. Thanks! Jørgen (talk) 10:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

MPs_elected_in_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010 Kittybrewster ☎ 10:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Apparently, I was not specific enough. I am looking for a full list of the votes cast for each party, by constituency. Again, thanks to anyone who might know... Jørgen (talk) 11:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The BBC has a whole country summary here, but it also has a link from the same page to each constituency's own page, which contains a full breakdown of its results ("constituency results list" button on the left side of the page). This is not the easy table you're looking for, but at least the information is there if you don't find a better source. Karenjc 12:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Spreadsheet here. Dalliance (talk) 12:34, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Just what I was looking for! Thank you! Jørgen (talk) 13:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Parallels of the Prime Ministerial situation

The current UK situation of the scramble to form a majority - and to find a PM who all of that majority can support - has got me thinking of parallels in the past. I know there have been situations where the King/Queen has invited X to form a government but X hasn't been able to garner the necessary support & so has deferred to another individual. I can't remember the individuals involved so I thought I'd ask here. I was thinking it was possibly Rockingham/Fox & that timeframe or Asquith & some others. Any ideas, or just other, UK, historical parallels? AllanHainey (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

They wouldn't usually defer to another individual in that circumstance, there would be another general election. The current PM doesn't need to be asked to form a government, they get to do so anyway. If they fail, the monarch will ask someone else. There will generally only be one other person worth asking, so if they aren't able to manage it there is no choice but to have another election. --Tango (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The closest I can find on the Number 10 website is the resignation of A J Balfour in 1905, and Campbell-Bannerman being asked to form a government as the leader of the next largest party, to govern before the next election could be called. Is this what you were thinking of? Balfour didn't resign because he couldn't form a government, though: he resigned because he couldn't get any legislation through the Commons. [17] --TammyMoet (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Tango, I'm not talking about the current political system but rather that of 90+ (likely more) years ago when the parties were less rigid, when there wasn't a clear party leader who'd become PM. I can't remember much but I think I may be thinking of the 19th century.

What I was thinking of was when after an election one person - the 'leader' of a block or someone holding significant support would was asked to form a government but found he couldn't muster sufficient support (possibly he alienated another block he'd need to depend on) so allowed someone else to become PM and served in a more junior position. I'm fairly certain I'm thinking of late 18thC or mid 19th C but I can't remember the names of those involved. It wasn't Balfour & Campbell-Bannerman. AllanHainey (talk) 19:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it came up last week, but the closest parallel to the current situation was the situation in 1974, see United Kingdom general election, February 1974 and United Kingdom general election, October 1974. In the February election, the breakdown of votes was almost exactly what it was in the 2010 election; Harold Wilson's Labour party won enough votes for a plurality of seats in Commons, but not enough for a majority. Rather than immediately form a new government, the leader of the Conservatives, Prime Minister Edward Heath refused to resign, believing he could establish a majority coalition. Things went from bad to worse, Heath resigned, and Wilson was invited to form a government. Wilson immediately called for new elections, got a BARE majority in the October elections, and went on to establish majority rule. No telling where the current situation will lead, but in terms of what happened in the election, this is a very close parallel to February, 1974. --Jayron32 19:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I wasn't thinking of 1974. I wasn't looking for a parallel with the recent election but rather with the process of forming a government or ministry. Nowadays the formal party structure (& dominance of the 2 parties) provides a ready made government but formerly it was more a process of horsetrading & balancing of competing power blocks - more like we're seeing now. I've done a bit of searching & I'm thinking of a situation like the Fox-North Coalition where Fox & North couldn't lead on their own but got the Duke of Portland to serve as a unifying PM for their 2 blocks. I don't think that was exactly the situation I was thinking of but its much the same principle. AllanHainey (talk) 19:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

We've had an organised two-party system for a while now, I believe. The parties have changed over the years, but there have been two main parties for as long as we've had a parliament like we do now (when parliament really did just advise the monarch it was different, of course), as far as I know (this article says the parties formalised in 1784). --Tango (talk) 21:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I suppose on the face of it thats accurate, but while there were 2 parties from the late 18th C they weren't as rigidly structured as today. They were labels of convenience with distinct and changing component blocks voting different ways on different issues. A lot like the U.S.A. parties of today but probably looser than that. AllanHainey (talk) 12:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

how is it possible to GET a patent (directly or indirectly) without being associated with it in any way?

Let's say you have a fantastic idea that does not fit your personality, who you are, how people know you, etc etc in any way.

You can consider the following examples: - You are a politician and your invention will make the cigarette industry obsolete. You don't want them to know it's you, as you fear political retaliation.

That's just an example. Another example would be that you are a fashion icon and make all of your public moves extremely carefully, and your pr agents told you that getting this patent will be negative for your public image, they don't want you to be associated with being an inventer.

These are just two examples, you can think of others. Anyway you're resourceful, I don't need to give examples. Onto my question:

How is it possible, in this case, to gain control over the patent of your idea, without it being made in your name. 1) can you file a patent under a pseudonym or through a "publisher" who will keep your real identity anonymous? 2) in case this isn't possible, would there be a way to have someone else file the patent but contractually be obligated to assign it to you, and if so, can this assignment be made anonymously? Maybe it should be assigned to a corporation in which you happen to have a controlling stake?

Any other thoughts you have are much appreciated.

Thank you. Best regards, 92.230.66.49 (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

You have to have named inventors and its difficult to patent an idea anyway. It has to be something tangible. The US is more open to patenting methods, but even there evidence is needed of a formal process or similar. You can register a patent to a company if the inventors sigh their rights (most employment contracts would provide for this as standard), but again you need inventors. --Snowded ^TALK 19:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I am sure you could hire attorneys to apply for the patent on your behalf, and presumably they would be happy to take the credit, for just a small fee no doubt. Googlemeister (talk) 19:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

No, you don't want to do that. See the "United States" section of Inventor (patent). Incorrectly identifying or falsifying the name(s) of the inventor(s) could invalidate the patent. Even if a company registers a patent, the inventor(s) must be identified. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Technically yes, but the next sentence says, "Ordinarily, the courts presume the named inventors are the inventors so long as there is no disagreement". This would mean that for all intents and purposes, you could be an anonymous inventor as long as you do not want the credit for your invention. Now the tricky part would be if either you try to screw your attorney (patent holder) or v.v. because if the contract you would want in order for your agreement to be binding was ever used as evidence, then the patent might get ruled invalid and you both would no longer have anything to fight over. Kind of a MAD situation there. Googlemeister (talk) 20:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

So, as I said, you don't want to do that? Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:55, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Traditional patent law requires inventors to be named, even if they were incorrectly named in the application, or even the issued patent. Corrections can be made in District Courts in the U.S. You could pay someone to act as your agent, with an agreement in advance that they will eventually reveal you as the inventor, using a nondisclosure agreement with cash consideration. 208.54.5.60 (talk) 20:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

And as of now this is legal advice, which we are not allowed to give. We are not qualified to give legal advice, and you should trust nothing that has been said above. Please consult a patent attorney. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Trade secrets. Coca-Cola is not patented, as it would have to reveal the recipe. Aaronite (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

But not everything is appropriate for a trade secret. It works OK for complicated chemical mixtures, but not so well for mechanical devices that you would be selling directly to anyone (which could then be taken apart and reverse engineered). --Mr.98 (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Coca cola can be reverse engineered. There's lots of really good chemical seperation, identification, and quantization methods. GC-MS, for one. --Jayron32 04:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

But figuring out the recipe used to produce it is still not-trivial, even if you know all the chemical constituents in the final product. That doesn't tell you how it was made, it just tells you what was made. (Cases in which the how and the what are linked in an obvious way are not good candidates for trade secrets.) --Mr.98 (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

What's interesting is that you can use pseudonyms for copyrights, but apparently not patents. I wonder if you couldn't 1. change your name, 2. file the application, 3. wait for it to issue, then 4. change it back again. Pretty cumbersome and in some ways self-defeating (you could trace the names, if one wanted to, and if someone challenged the patent, you'd have to reveal), but I don't think it breaks any rules. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's an interesting wrinkle. In the People's Republic of China, it is apparently possible to have anonymous patents of some sort. "Inventor must use his/her true name and not a pseudonym ... Inventor may request the Patent Office not to disclose his/her name."[18] I'm not sure how that works out in practice. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Ways to go as allegory

I am looking for metaphors of the form: cancer is to hell as stroke and/or heart attacks are to heaven, in English and other languages. In particular, I'm looking for the use of that metaphor to bridge the scientific and religious communities. Thank you for your help. 208.54.5.60 (talk) 20:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone understands what you are asking -- I certainly don't. Anyone can make up a metaphor and your attempt above is an example. If you'd like your metaphor to have meaning, well, that's another issue. Why is cancer to hell as stroke is to heaven? For a metaphor to be meaningful, it has to elucidate a not-already clarified concept. But your metaphor is lacking because there's no real connection between the compared items. Are you suggesting that, next to cancer, a stroke or a heart attack are wonderful? That's definitely not universal, because multiple forms of cancer are easily treatable while some strokes and heart attacks take the life of the victim. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to elucidate what you would like to know. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 23:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

"The Judas Tree"

I have heard a story about the Judas Tree (Red Bud). Is there any information available? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.88.138 (talk) 20:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about Cercis siliquastrum, aka the Judas Tree, which is a European member of the Cercis or "Redbud" genus of trees. Without knowing what story you are talking about, I'm not sure how to confirm it. --Jayron32 20:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

We also have an article on the novel The Judas Tree or there is a ballet of the same name by Kenneth MacMillan, which is is an allegory of Christ's betrayal.--TrogWoolley (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Using an Alias for your Surname?

I know that this question might be tiptoeing by the "no legal advice" boundary, but bear with me. I've recently started a new career in a field and with a company that has little to no contact to my life before now (beyond, you know, giving information for tax forms). For a variety of reasons, mostly personal, I've started using an alias for my surname (as in "Peter Jones" rather than "Peter Smith"). What I'm doing, more precisely, is using my middle name as a last name (and going without a middle name).

I've known plenty of people who use a middle name as a first name, but I don't know of anyone who has a different last name on their tax forms than what they go by in day-to-day life. Is this common anywhere (other than for some married women)? Is it likely that prospective employers will be put off by my having one name on resumes and another on my legal documentation? And, without asking for specific legal advice, how do varying legal systems deal with this (by which I mean people who have a "legal" name and then an "everyday" name)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.5.181 (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

You didn't say where you were located, but according to U.S. law, so long as no attempt is made to defraud anyone (especially the gubmint), you have the legal right to call yourself anything you want. --Jayron32 21:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The same is true in the UK. Your employer will be confused by you using two names. You can either explain to them that you are using two names, or you can inform the taxman of your new name. As long as your reasons for using a different name don't involve anything fraudulent, you shouldn't have any problem with either option. --Tango (talk) 21:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

And don't forget that many performers use a stage name in exactly this way. --Phil Holmes (talk) 09:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Legal status of part of Kashmir

Our article on Azad Kashmir, based on something from Britannica, says that Pakistan sees the region as not being part of Pakistan proper. From the point of view of Islamabad, why is it a good idea to recognise the region as independent or semi-independent? It seems to me that declaring it to be part of Pakistan would be a logical part of Islamabad's claim to all of Jammu and Kashmir. Nyttend (talk) 21:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

By not directly claiming it they can deny responsibility for terrorist attacks on India carried out by state-funded groups from Pakistani-Kashmir. DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It can also help to get support from the local independantists (if any), who would see that position as positive and help keeping order. --Lgriot (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

May 11

late 1950's embossed images on paper

I am helping organize a new collection at my local historical society, and i have come across a group of things so strange i need help identifying them. I have roughly ten green cards, made out of heavy paper, about the size of baseball cards, but they all vary in size slightly. They were most likely made at the end of the 1950's. Each card is embossed with an image of a baseball player from a traveling team called the Indianapolis Clowns, but the embossing is kind of in the style of Ben-Day dots or halftone. From other papers attached to these and in the same file, it seems like these cards were sent to newspapers to go along with press releases for the baseball game, but i can not find anything resembling them online. Can anyone help me figure out what these are? --Found5dollar (talk) 00:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, incase it helps, it says "Please return mat" on the reverse of some.--Found5dollar (talk) 00:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

A stereotype mat is what that is. See "The Papier Mache Matrix" section on this page, for example. Such mats were easy to send through the mail, so advertisers, news services, and such would have them made up for distribution to local newspapers. The newspapers would then have already-composed text (or, in your case, already-halftoned images) that they could drop into their pages. Deor (talk) 08:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow! thanks! i have never heard of this type of printing. thank you for informing me of what it is!--Found5dollar (talk) 13:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Electoral reform in UK

The 2010 election is thought by many to have produced a result which has been unfair to the Conservatives. Indeed Michael Heseltine has been saying for a long time that the Conservatives had a collossal mountain to climb. Is this a consequence of the figures in the 2001 census being used? Or of the decisions made by the Boundary Commission? Or of the "first past the post" system? And what should be changed to make it as fair as possible, consistent with strong and stable government? This last question includes the question as to which posible other system would be fairest. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

It's hard to maintain that the general election result is unfair to the Conservatives - with 36.1% of the vote, they took 47.0% of the seats, almost securing a majority. This is a consequence, principally, of the first-past-the-post system, which greatly benefits the two largest parties (and, to a lesser extent, small parties with highly concentrated support). That said, in 2005, Labour took only 35.3% of the vote and secured a majority, suggesting the system is even more beneficial to them. This is a result of two main factors: Labour's more concentrated support, mainly in larger cities, and the tendency of supporters of several smaller parties to vote tactically against the Conservatives. The more concentrated support means fewer votes for Labour which don't help to elect someone. The tactical voting has a similar effect, although it seems to have been less of a factor in 2010. The concentration of much of Labour's vote in large cities, which typically have declining populations, versus the Conservative's tendency to do better in areas with growing populations, combines with the use of 2001 census figures to ensure that Labour-held seats tend to have smaller electorates than Conservative ones, again disadvantaging the Conservatives. Given that the Boundary Commission are compelled by law to only consider population figures from the last census and not any later changes, I haven't heard any serious accusations that their decisions disadvantaged the Conservatives. Overall, the differences are not vast, the Conservatives have often secured large majorities, and had they come close to taking a majority of votes, they would have a large majority in the Commons. Warofdreams talk 12:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The fairest system is certainly some form of proportional representation, probably the single transferable vote. Because it is fairer, it will almost certainly give more representation to smaller parties. It can be consistent with strong and stable government, but it is more likely to be reliant on coalitions (not necessarily weak and unstable, although they have that reputation in the UK). Warofdreams talk 12:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

If the election results were "unfair" to anyone, it was surely the Lib Dems - 23% of the votes, under 9% of the seats. Their support is quite widely spread, so that they more often come second to either Conservative or Labour, rather than winning seats themselves. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

STV (or Preferential Voting as we call it here in Australia) isn't a proportional system, and it doesn't typically give more representation to smaller parties - only 3 of 150 seats in the Australian House of Representatives are not held by the two-and-a-half major parties. However, it is rather fairer than FPTP, as it means no-one's vote is wasted. FiggyBee (talk) 13:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

STV certainly is a system of proportional representation, as listed in our article on the subject. The House of Representative system (sometimes described as single-member STV) is known as the Alternative Vote in the UK, and is less proportional, but generally still classed as PR. Warofdreams talk 13:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, that STV. Yep yep. Personally I fail to see how proportional voting gels with having "local" MPs; I think sacrificing one for the other would be a poor trade. FiggyBee (talk) 13:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The two don't gel. The system the Lib Dems and others want for the UK is "STV-in-multi-member-constituencies". The UK will have to decide whether it wants to keep the local MP-constituency link or go for a closer reflection of the popular vote. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it would mean much larger constituencies, with each one having several representatives. Three members is probably the minimum workable number for multiple-member STV, and perhaps ten the maximum - so, in Westminster terms, one constituency might be a small county or a fairly large city. Incidentally, the Conservatives are proposing keeping FPTP and having fewer MPs, which would also mean larger constituencies - although not so large as STV. Warofdreams talk 14:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Spoke with someone who had been in the Boundary Commission recently. Essentially you could merge two adjacent constituencies, so not increase the number of MPs and inject some more interesting results in parliamet.

ALR (talk) 14:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

That would be the obvious approach (although, if it was thought beneficial to reduce the overall number of MPs, it would be a good chance to do it, while still increasing the range of views represented in Parliament). The problem with two-member constituencies is that they are rather likely to be safe seats - where only two parties have a realistic chance of winning a seat in most years. Better to have four- or five-member constituencies, which would make the final results more proportional. Warofdreams talk 15:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

It does depend how it's implemented, personally speaking for a long period I've felt unable to consult my MP because we are diametrically opposed on a number of issues; civil liberties and state intervention so nothing significant ;)

If we had multi-member STV with two members per constituency then at least I'd have choice. I'd be uncomfortable about any more than two members for the commons although potentially for an elected upper house I would see less of an issue.

ALR (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

And you don't see the problem here? Instead of having a local MP whose job it is to represent the community, You have a Conservative MP who represents conservatives, a Liberal MP who represents liberals, and, I don't know, maybe a BNP MP who represents honest hard-working Englishmen. Politicians don't get the reality check of having to work for people who don't agree with them, and politics just becomes more and more polarised and off the wall. FiggyBee (talk) 14:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

You end up with two local MPs who between them represent their electorate in a way that actually reflects their voting opinions more than it does now. So in a two member constituency there may be two from one party, or one from one and a second from another. No system is perfect but in recent elections there has been extremely low turnout, a growing number of ostensibly safe seats and a professionalisation of politics. Again reflecting back to my own constituencies, in three of four I've been represented by someone with no real world working experience. My current MP has been a party apparatchik since he left University and has done nothing credible.

There are very clear risks with any political reform, as you point out there is an increased likelihood of small, single issue parties being involved in parliament, but if that's a reflection of what the electorate want then that indicates that the system is improved. As you point out, many parliamentarians are detached from reality, FPTP is a significant cause of that.

ALR (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

We could have a long, loooong discussion about whether parliament reflecting what the electorate wants would be an improvement to the system. :) We have 95% turnout in elections here (because you get fined $20 if you don't vote). I've worked at a polling station and met the electorate, and I'm afraid that if we got the politicians we wanted, we'd end up with the politicians we deserve. FiggyBee (talk) 15:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Under AV or STV, politicians need to attract transfers from constituents for whom they are not the first choice. They actually have an increased incentive to work for the whole community, or at least most of it, rather than under FPTP where many seats are safe and some MPs get away with do very little in the way of representation. Warofdreams talk 15:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Personally I'm a fan of the benevolent dictatorship :) Democracy stinks.

ALR (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Define strong and stable there are significant risks with having large majorities, as we saw from the Blair regime where parliament was effectively marginalised and there was insufficient scrutiny in the house.

What we're seeing is a consequence of FPFT in a multi-party environment. I'm not a big fan of arguments around fairness in politics, what we need is a system that means that the representation in parliament is representative of the people. As an example my own MP managed to win somewhat less than 50% support in this constituency. What we have seen this time has been an increase in turnout and that may have had a significant effect. There was discussion of engaging younger voters and increasing turnout even in safe seats where it's always been a problem getting people to vote against an incumbent.

A different system would change the dynamics in the house, personally I feel that some form of proportional system would help increase turnout. From what I understand from electoral geeks the most representative system is multi-member constituencies using STV. Delivering that would involve a significant boundary review.

ALR (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I saw Colin Hay speak about this; his view was that introducing PR would have little effect on political engagement or turnout, but would generally be of benefit in that Parliament would be more representative. Warofdreams talk 15:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

True. I've seen arguments in both directions and my own view is that wider reform is really needed to assure engagement. I have a passing interest in this, not as passionate about it as some I know, so I'm not an expert.

ALR (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

tourism statistics

Hello everyone. I'm searching for statistics on the number of tourist visitors per country (or attraction) - I'm not looking for the big/top places, but for places that get between 400,000 to 500,000 visitors per year. Can anyone help by pointing to an attraction/country in that range? Thank you very much, WikiJedits (talk) 13:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

As it happens, I just noticed the other day that the US Space & Rocket Center gets right in that range (470,000 visitors per year). — Lomn 13:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Lomn, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Much appreciated. (More are welcome, everyone!). I found one myself here [19] – the entire country of Paraguay had 428,000 visitors in 2008. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Searching for "500000 visitors per year" turns up quite a few: Tombstone, the Minh Mang Tomb and the Mercedes-Benz Museum are just three examples. Related searches will doubtless find many more. Warofdreams talk 15:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks also. I needed something really fast and you guys were great, many thanks. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 22:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Genocide

Where did the first genocide take place? Who were the victims and who were the culprits? B-Machine (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

We have an article: Genocides in history. FiggyBee (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict with above) The term was coined in 1943 by Raphael Lemkin in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe largely to address the actions of the leaders of Nazi Germany before and during World War Two, specifically what is now known as "the Holocaust", and was used in prosecuting some Nazi leaders at the Nuremburg Trials. It was first defined as an international crime by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which was passed in 1948. The first time this law was enforced was in 1998, in relation to the killings in Rwanda in 1994. People have retroactively applied the definition to past conflicts, sometimes with considerable controversy. See Genocides in history. For example, Ben Kiernan has evidently called the destruction of Carthage during the Third Punic War "The first genocide". Buddy431 (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

If your question is when the first recorded genocide took place, the answer might be the destruction of Carthage, or the extermination of the Amalekites. However, if your question is when the very first genocide took place, the answer is that it almost certainly occurred in prehistoric times, so we don't know when or where it happened. In fact, genocide probably predates Homo sapiens, according to this article, among others. Marco polo (talk) 17:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

According to a TV show I saw a few months back, Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal Man may have co-existed in Europe. And you know which of those two is not around anymore. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Neither chimpanzee wars nor the disappearance of Neanderthal man fit the description of Genocide. FiggyBee (talk) 19:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Having read the description you linked, Figgy, I think that those two situations do fit the description. Can you say why you think they don't? Marco polo (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I also saw something recently saying that scientists think there was some interbreeding between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals. If so, then they were close enough genetically that they could be considered humans. However, we don't know why the Neanderthals disappeared. Genocide is only one of the possibilities. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Apes aren't killing other apes because of their "national, ethnical, racial or religious group". Nor do we have any evidence that Neanderthals were so targeted. Genocide is a 20th century political concept and what constitutes genocide (or doesn't constitute genocide, in the case of suppressing dissidents) should be seen through that filter. FiggyBee (talk) 22:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define national, ethnic, and racial. If you want to say that genocide can only exist when those categories take their modern form in the context of nation-states, then by definition, there could not have been a premodern genocide. However, at its root, ethnicity is really about "us" versus "them", with the distinction being made on cultural grounds. As such, the distinction almost certainly predates Homo sapiens. Chimpanzees have a sense of "our band" and "that alien band". Chimpanzee bands have distinct cultures and traditions, and individuals identify strongly with their bands. When one band annihilates another, it can be seen as a kind of genocide. I don't see how this is qualitatively different from one prehistoric tribe trying to annihilate another or the Nazis trying to annihilate the Jews. Of course the latter was at a vastly larger scale than either of the former, and it made use of a more sophisticated range of technology, but I don't see why these are necessary for genocide. Marco polo (talk) 02:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Kechemeche

What does KECHEMECHE mean in the algonquin/lenape language? they were the indiginous people of cape may county along with the tuckahoe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

You probably should ask this at the Language Ref Desk. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

He or she has already asked there, and I have responded there. Marco polo (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Roman empire vs Chinese three kingdoms

Lets pretendthat in the 1st century AD, The Roman Empire and Three Kingdoms China went to war for some reason in Afghanistan/Iran. Who would be likely to win, and why?--92.251.166.171 (talk) 18:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Given the impossible logistics of the situation, I'd say the Afghans would kick both "superpowers" out of there like they have done ever since... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the Parthian Empire might have had something to say about it... Adam Bishop (talk) 18:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese economy

Why is Portugal in seeming never-ending economic stagnation whereas neighboring Spain (until 2008 or so) has experienced continuous and rapid growth during the second half of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st? --Belchman (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Portugal is relatively small and isolated in comparison to its neighbor Spain. Vranak (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think your perception is accurate. Like Spain, Portugal experienced solid economic growth during the 1980s and 1990s. This growth occurred in both countries after they joined the European Community as firms from other parts of the EC set up operations in the two Iberian countries to take advantage of their relatively low labor costs. Both countries experienced the global recession of 2001. In the years that followed, both countries' manufacturing sectors suffered from the effects of expanded European trade with China, whose labor costs were much lower than Spain's or Portugal's. However, a real-estate bubble in Spain helped to compensate for weakness in manufacturing as thousands of Spaniards took jobs in construction and real estate. As we have seen, Spain's real-estate bubble was not sustainable, and it is arguable whether Spain improved its position relative to Portugal over the full course of the last decade. Spain's unemployment rate is now twice as large as Portugal's. See Economy of Portugal. Marco polo (talk) 20:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hasn't Portugal been rather poorer than Spain for generations? Nyttend (talk) 02:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

U.S. Constitution law

Is there a law in the US Constitution that mandates people take part in the 2010 Census? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.94.214 (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The Constitution merely requires that a census take place. The actual law that requires participation is in the United States Code, specifically 13 USC §221. That particular law assigns a maximum fine of $100 for point-blank refusal to answer, and $500 for deliberately providing false answers. There is a specific exemption for questions dealing with religion. Xenon54 (talk) 19:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

According to Twenty-first Amendment to the United States Constitution, Laurence Tribe says:

"there are two ways, and only two ways, in which an ordinary private citizen ... can violate the United States Constitution. One is to enslave someone, a suitably hellish act. The other is to bring a bottle of beer, wine, or bourbon into a State in violation of its beverage control laws—an act that might have been thought juvenile, and perhaps even lawless, but unconstitutional?"

So almost nothing is unconstitutional for a private citizen. Paul (Stansifer) 20:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Treason is also specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Good point. This may be splitting hairs (and not being a lawyer, I don't have a hair-splitting license in this area), but I think that the Constitution doesn't forbid citizens from committing treason, it defines treason and permits congress to forbid that. I seem to remember hearing that the reason for this was that the authors were worried about a despotic administration using the charge of treason to silence opposition. Paul (Stansifer) 02:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, treason is defined in the Constitution [20] and Congress is authorized to determine the punishment, except they are forbidden from "attainder" or "corruption of blood", i.e. making the descendants of the treasonous person also somehow guilty ("tainted"), which I assume was to address things that might have happened under British rule. In theory, Congress could make treason punishable anywhere from, say, a 50 dollar fine, all the way up to hanging. As a practical matter, very few Americans have been convicted of treason, as such. John Brown was one of them, except it was treason against the state of Virginia rather than the US, as indicated in the article. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted and executed for espionage, which is pretty much the same thing as treason. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Xenon54 has a very good point, although I wouldn't advise anyone to follow any advice on here without consulting a lawyer first. As for the constitutional question, that sounds exactly right. The American constitution's discussion of treason has been practically irrelevant as far as I know, largely because there are plenty of capital crimes an individual may be convicted of regardless constitutional limitations. Shadowjams (talk) 06:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is the law:[21] Besides there really no reason NOT to answer the questions. For most people the questions are very benign, but the info gathered is very important. It started by effecting the count of our House of Representatives. Plenty of others use this data, so it is very much in your best interest to be counted and counted accurately. There is a small percentage that is asked more detailed personal questions by mail. However these questions are only handled by a select group of Census employees and NOT by your local area. If you are randomly selected to receive the more detailed questionnaire. There is no way this personal information could be liked back to you.

Jewish Heaven

About what percent of Jews today believe in an afterlife for the good (excluding reincarnation)? —C Teng^(talk) 19:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Who is a Jew? If you mean people that believe in the tenets of the Jewish religion, then by definition it is 100%, since an afterlife is one the Jewish principles of faith. --Tango (talk) 20:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

With the current wording, the answer to your question would be a very small percentage. As it happens, it is only the minority of Jews who observe the laws of Judaism, and as such, either choose to disagree with religious teachings or are completely oblivious to them. As such, although all observant Jews by definition (as in Tango's post above) believe in an afterlife, observant Jews are but a tiny minority of Jews alive today. And it's not entirely clear what you mean by "for the good" and "excluding reincarnation." Do you mean, by the former, to exclude those who believe only in a Hell, and by the latter, to exclude those who believe only in a physical afterlife (in the sense that the dead will return to life on planet Earth) but not to exclude those who believe in some sort of metaphysical existence? Perhaps you could clarify. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 23:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

You do have a few ethnic Jews who practice other religions; most of my relatives and I are conservative Christians from a historically Jewish family that converted a few generations ago. Nyttend (talk) 02:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Question on Henry VIII

(Copied over from Wikipedia:Helpdesk#Question on Henry VIII  Chzz  ►  22:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC))

To whom it may concern,

Hello my name is Angela.. I have been catching up on some history of KingHenry VIII. I was just reading some footnotes from your on-line wikimedia. I don't study this, but what I have found on the site for King Henry VIII,, and theactual death of Catherine Of Aragon to the election of Pope Paul III has got meconfused. I'm sure I may be able to go to the nearest library to find out more,but thought you would like to know.. As follows

Catherine of Aragon was Queen of England from: 11 June 1509 – 23 May 1533

It also says she died 7 January 1536

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Aragon

Next to be known as Queen after Catherine of Aragons' anullment to King HenryVIII, Is Anne Boleyn.

From 28 May 1533 – 17 May 1536 (Beheaded 19 May 1536)

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Boleyn

Now what I am confused about are: Of the actual year of Catherine of Aragonsdeath and Pope Paul III election to time.

Paul III (*)13 October 1534 10 November 1549 Henry VIII between ages of 42 and death. Final break from pope

It is said on the Bio of King Henry VIII, that Catherine of Aragon died 15 months after Pope Paul III was elected. But according to the bio of King Henry VIII (at bottom of page) This is what it says: Catherine of Aragon died 15 months after his election. On (*)17-Dec-1538, four years into his pontificate, Paul III excommunicated Henry VIII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England

Too, I am confused about the actual time of the Popes election and excommunication to Henry VIII

I am sorry if I have it wrong. I have never looked any of these history facts up in my time of school, only now.. Cause I am more aware about the importance of history. Also that it is, in those times, I have always had a very deep inner-connection too. Maybe it's just facination or mere intuition. Either way, please, If I am wrong, fill me in if you'd like. Otherwise I hope I may havehelped the next reader.

Sincere thanks,

Angela Gabriel —Preceding unsigned comment added by LadyPlavwell (talk • contribs) 20:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The dates seem to be correct...Paul III became pope 13 October 1534 and Catherine died 7 January 1536. The problem is that no one (at least according to our article) is really sure when Henry was excommunicated. It may have been by Paul III on 17 December 1538, or it may have been in 1533 by Clement VII. I don't like the sources in the Henry VIII article though...footnote 35 is extremely vague. Churchill's very broad history is not a very good source for this. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I just did a Google search. Spartucus and others say 17 DEcember 1538, one says 11 July 1533. I will go through some books I have on Henry later to see if we can pin down a definite date, although I'd put my money on 1538.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, here's what J. J. Scarisbrick says on pp.317-18 in his bio Henry VIII: In Consistory on 11 July 1533, Pope Clement solemnly condemned Henry's separation from Catherine of Aragon and marriage to Anne Boleyn and gave him until September to return to Catherine-under pain of Excommunication; however, it was suspended for another two months and was never promulgated. On 30 August 1535, a second excommunication was drawn up (page 334) after Henry's execution of Bishop Fisher. On 17 December 1538 Pope Paul finally prepared to promulgate the Bull of Excommunication against Henry. This comes from page 361.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I have since added this as footnote number 36 to the Henry VIII article, which I must say is poorly written in parts, and would greatly benefit from some heavy-duty editing to bring it up to par with the excellent Anne Boleyn article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Air ambulance costs

How can I find out how much air ambulances can charge for a flight? Anyone know of any cases in which the price was lowered? References will be greatly appreciated!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.156.1.178 (talk) 22:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about can charge, but they do charge anything from $0 upwards. You'll have to give us more specifics. I removed "legal question" from your subject line because we're not allowed to answer those, so I hope it isn't one! :) BTW, do you think our article on air ambulances has quite enough photos? Sheesh. FiggyBee (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

We can answer legal questions. What we can't do is give legal advice. They are different things. --Tango (talk) 23:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Your IP address seems to come from the US, so are you asking about air ambulances in the US? Like any emergency care, they won't ask about money until afterwards, so I'm sure there have been many times when they haven't charged since the person carried has no insurance or money of their own. --Tango (talk) 23:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

They charge, definitely. They occasionally sue too. They collect at a lesser degree though. Shadowjams (talk) 06:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Hitler

If someone went back in time and killed Hitler, history wouldn't change dramatically, because another Nazi leader would take his place. But how would history change if someone went back in time and prevented Hitler from being born? That way, the Nazi party wouldn't have risen to power at all. --75.33.219.230 (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Not only is your premise almost certainly incorrect (that history wouldn't change dramatically) but your questions is, although perhaps unintentionally, completely ridiculous. Just as a very vivid example, have you ever seen Back to the Future? Obviously the purpose of the film is to embellish on minor changes in the past for the sake of the plot, but as you can probably extrapolate in a more real manner, even minor changes can have tremendous effects on the sequence of history. So let's end this now. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 23:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

If someone killed Hitler after the Nazis had already risen to power, his second-in-command would have taken his place. However, if Hitler had never been born, the Nazis would never have risen to power, preventing the Holocaust. What effects would this have? --75.33.219.230 (talk) 23:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hitler filled a "need" felt by the populace after they had been crushed by Britain and France. Here's something to consider: What if someone actually went back in time and killed someone who was ten times worse than Hitler, leaving Hitler as the much lesser of two evils? Forgetting that, someone else likely would have come along to capitalize on the anguish of the German people. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Try Making History (novel) for one imagining. FiggyBee (talk) 00:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

If Hitler had never been born, then some other loser named, say, Schicklgruber, would have likely emerged to espouse the complaints of suffering Germans after WW1, to tell them they were a great people, that they were not really defeated in WW1, and that they should step forward and take charge of the world. Maybe the next Fearless Leader would not have blamed the Jews for Germany's ills, would have formed an alliance with Britain or the U.S. instead of Russia, or would have delayed WW2 until 1952, with vastly different results. Edison (talk) 03:35, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Why couldn't the Nazi Party have risen? It was created without Hitler, they could have found another Fuhrer. There is a book, I can't remember the title. about a woman going back in time and killing Hitler's mother, therefore preventing him from being born. But she takes a copy of the Time-Life History of World War II with her, it's discovered in the 1970s, and Germany, still led by unreconstructed Prussians, decides that they can do a better job than Hitler did and start a World War. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 05:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

What if someone went even further back in time and prevented the birth of Jesus? Now that's something we can ponder upon!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Betting to lose

I've heard over and over again lately about big finance betting on certain investments to lose. How is this supposed to work? It seems odd that one would buy an investment in order for it to lose.198.161.203.6 (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're talking about the Goldman Sachs incident, they didn't buy the investments, they sold the investments, allegedly without telling investors that the creators of the portfolio stood to make a lot of money if it failed and, indeed, were going to short it to death. FiggyBee (talk) 00:27, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

More generally, see Short (finance). The basic economics of shorting is simple to understand (you sell what you have with the intention of buying it back later when it is cheaper), but I admit to not totally getting how it applies to derivatives, which is what the recent news is? about, I believe. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Markets generally are people "betting" that their predictions about the world (crops are good, crops are bad; oil production is good, oil production is bad; IBM does well, IBM doesn't do well... etc.) are right. For everyone that thinks company XYZ will do well, another group of people will think that XYZ won't do well. An efficient market allows people to place their money both on the upside and the downside. Shorting allows people to place their bets on the downside. Shadowjams (talk) 06:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, you sell short what your broker has access to, not what you own (the latter would just be market timing). Clarityfiend (talk) 06:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Maastricht Pact

This article in The Baltimore Sun makes a reference to the "Maastricht Pact". Since there is no article by that title, I have concluded that it either refers to the Maastricht Treaty or the Stability and Growth Pact (or both). I know nothing about EU politics so I don't really know exactly what that term means and was hoping for clarification. –Dream out loud (talk) 01:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Greek word for doorstep poem

This word is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to find the right combination of keywords to get it to turn up in a search. It starts with "peri-" or "para-", and it means a particular genre of poem in which the speaker is waiting interminably outside his love's door and trying to win her over with his persistence or serenading (but hasn't been allowed to enter yet). —Keenan Pepper 02:18, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Paraklausithyron. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)