Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
→M.K: list filled out |
|||
Line 703: | Line 703: | ||
::I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC) |
::I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC) |
||
'''Response to this "list" business''' |
|||
Uhh, not sure what this list is supposed to be or what it is supposed to accomplish (in fact, it's a bad idea to begin with) but for what it's worth: |
|||
#I've never edited [[St. Anne's Church, Vilnius]] or [[Cathedral Square, Vilnius]]. |
|||
#I made one edit to [[Suvalkija]] '''back in August''' (so 5+ months ago) after Lokyz removed the name with an edit summary that made no sense, but I didn't make any further edits even after he blind reverted me literally within minutes ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suvalkija&diff=prev&oldid=377558968], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suvalkija&diff=next&oldid=377558968], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suvalkija&diff=next&oldid=379224460]) (btw, please note that "Suvalkų kraštas", the Lithuanian term, has been in the article on the [[Suwałki Region]] for something like 3 years straight and no Polish editor ever tried to remove it - which is quite telling when you compare it to the situation at [[Suvalkija]]). |
|||
#On [[Vilnius University]], after observing the blind reverts by Lokyz [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vilnius_University&diff=prev&oldid=417317962], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vilnius_University&diff=next&oldid=417319697], I started a discussion on talk on March 5th [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vilnius_University#name] without making any edits myself. Please note that Lokyz's edit summary justification for his revert was: ''PLease use talk page before starting edit war.'' (on an edit war he started) - however, once I started a discussion on talk he didn't even bother to reply or actually discuss. Hence, '''four days later''' on March 9th, I made the change to the article - this was my single edit to the article. Of course it got reverted within minutes (again - well, actually this time it took him two hours) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vilnius_University&diff=prev&oldid=417914836]. At that point I requested a third opinion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vilnius_University#third_opinion], still not making any edits to the article myself. Novickas at this time edited the article by expanding the names section which is fine with me. Note the pattern here: Lokyz, Dr. Dan and MK blind revert, while at the same time admonishing users to "discuss on talk" or claiming that there is "no consensus" yet, they then don't even bother discussing things when a discussion is initiated. If they do discuss the discussion is very quickly derailed by irrelevant strawmen (like discussion of whether the article on [[cat]] should have the Polish "kot" in it, even though no one has ever proposed that - you can also ask Kotniski about how productive these "discussions" tend to be and why that is). |
|||
#On [[[Bernardine Cemetery] I was also the one who initiated the discussion on talk in the first place, way back in October [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bernardine_Cemetery#Comment_on_specific_article_controversy] (though note previous personal attacks by Lokyz, who calls Jacurek dyslexic and says "Dyslexic people are amusing" which is extremely offensive in its own right, no matter who it is directed at). Jacurek likewise tried to engage in good faithed discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bernardine_Cemetery#Alternative_names_in_the_lead] (note also Dr. Dan's mocking of Kotniski [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bernardine_Cemetery&diff=prev&oldid=392435618] in response to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bernardine_Cemetery&diff=prev&oldid=392432350] with the "Er,..." parody of Kotniski's statement - seriously how is meaningful discussion possible in such circumstances?). Since the talk page consensus appeared to be for the inclusion of the name, and since Lokyz and Dr.Dan ceased participating in the discussion, I '''made one edit''' to the article [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Cemetery&diff=prev&oldid=417686344] restoring the name (my edits in November where just a standard expansion of the article) on March 7th, or '''three months after I initiated discussion'''). The edit was again reverted within minutes by Lokyz [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Cemetery&diff=next&oldid=417686344] with an edit summary in which he purposefully used my previous name (in what I took to be a form of harassment), despite the fact that I had previously asked him specifically not to do that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lokyz#notification] and to which he agreed. I made no further edits to the article after that but instead brought the matter to talk again. Here's the sad/ironic thing - recently through a joint Polish-Lithuanian effort the cemetery was restored as a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian friendship and joint history, and the Lithuanian government funded a sign with the Polish name at the entrance to the cemetery - since generally public signs written in Polish are banned in Lithuania this was a "big deal". But apparantly, some editors are more nationalistic than the Lithuanian government. |
|||
Bottom line: I made one edit at [[Suvalkija]] which was reverted within minutes and I made no subsequent edits. I made one edit at [[Vilnius University]] and when it was reverted, within less than three hours, asked for third opinion. At [[Bernardine Cemetery]] I initiated discussion on talk and only after it seemed like an agreement was reached for inclusion, and having given it enough time (3 months) did I add the name. This too was reverted within minutes and I didn't edit the article any further. I think the picture that emerges here is crystal clear. |
|||
I also got to ask why you are limiting this to just these articles? MK regularly edit wars with Belorussians editors over similar matters [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Belarusians&diff=prev&oldid=414745014]. Herkus adds German names to Polish places all the time - but never gets reverted because Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy. Why isn't that relevant?[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 20:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC) |
|||
===Comment by MyMoloboaccount=== |
===Comment by MyMoloboaccount=== |
Revision as of 20:39, 13 March 2011
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
|
NickOrnstein
Ryoung122 reminded of the scope of his topic ban; NickOrnstein warned about edit warring. Admins may choose to notify forum participants of the discretionary sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning NickOrnstein
Warnings explicit in ArbCom case and implicit in my diffs above. Also
I concur with EJ's proposed result, including his proposed amendment, per Amatulic. David in DC (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [28] David in DC (talk) 13:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Discussion concerning NickOrnsteinStatement by NickOrnsteinFrankly, I have not replied to a lot of "wars". It seems pointless replying back on List of disputed supercentenarian claimants, or anywhere of that matter, due to these battles lasting for months (since about October). I have not agreed with removing WOP sources (except from List of oldest living people by nation as of today), many correspondents are on the WOP. There are loads worth of articles with links on that site. So much important information is on the WOP. The group itself is almost as old as Wikipedia. World's Oldest People group is on Longevity claims, along with several other articles. The group is also a backup incase a link becomes dead. I haven't even bothered to read every little detail regarding the ongoing battles of Bulten vs. Young in the past, especially the fight over the WOP being "reliable". I am going to continue keeping WOP sources, unless there is a source on the internet that is reliable and can replace it. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC) Blogs are still surviving on some of the articles, some twitter and facebook links were on List of living supercentenarians for months. WOP deserves to stay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NickOrnstein (talk • contribs) 00:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC) In the future, I will put forward an attempt to reply with "wars" and edits. See my edit here [29], if it shines any light on you guys. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning NickOrnsteinMy only concern with NickOrnstein is his apparent inability to provide a rationale for his position other than a brief comment here and there as well as his inability to collaborate with other editors as he appears to have the view of "the other editor is wrong, therefore, I will be bold and revert without further comment or explanation". He has not justified why he reverted my attempts to add references to the WikiProject's World's Oldest People's Future supercentenarians subpage in the section I made to elicit a response from NickOrnstein. He has not made a response to date, and he is fully aware of David in DC and my efforts to add citations to the future supercentenarians subpage. So I feel that, at least, NickOrnstein should be warned to be more cooperative & collaborative, than to be bold all the time. Cheers, CalvinTy 18:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC) Comment by Melissa.vp198I'd like to get clarification one one thing, if I may. Am I to understand that the RSN [[30]] page is concerned with the reliability of the GRG only and not the Louis Epstein pages, which I believe is what many of these edit disagreements are about? If so, should it be considered there as well? Epstein verifies cases in a very similar way to the GRG, although granted his work his barely ever cited in news reports etc. Maybe someone could give me a brief rationale as to why this is explicitly not a reliable source (ie not covered by the RSN page, where consensus seems to be leaning towards thinking the GRG is a reliable source)? In terms of NickOrnstein and his editing approach explicitly, from observation I would say he does need to try and be more collaborative. --Melissa.vp198 (talk) 19:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC) Comments by ItsmejudithSince the Arbcom finished, Ryoung122 has continued to manipulate a number of editors as meatpuppets in this area. I cannot currently add the links because they are blocked by the spam filter, but they are found easily by Googling for "110 Club Wikipedia". The editors colluding include, but may not be limited to, User:Brendanology, User:Melissa.vp198, User:NickOrnstein, User:DerbyCountyinNZ, User:Cam46136, and User:CalvinTy. This is probably the most blatant case of off-wiki collusion ever. Please take the time to review the pages you will find, which contain numerous personal attacks on editors, and discussion of tactics to subvert the ArbCom decision and continue to push points of view on Wikipedia. Ryoung122's topic ban must be converted into a general indefinite ban, and the meatpuppets should also be banned. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Robert Young and I have differing opinions on many things: certainly in terms of wikipedia. Surprisingly, I have my own mind...so does CalvinTy. I think Robert Young should back off from the oldest people pages of wikipedia completely, if not the whole site. In fact, seeing as you've been scanning the 110 club forum for evidence, you'll already know this. That fact that there are a group of people who want the oldest people pages to sustain/improve/grow is self evident. Your issue is with Robert Young and not those independently-minded individuals who choose to add their voice to any debate here.--Melissa.vp198 (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Comments by O FenianI was tangentially involved in a dispute or two leading up to the arbitration case, and I see little has changed. Over 20 hours after being notified of the thread here, and without having replied, he is making edits such as this which restores commented out information with no explanation. The information is sourced to messages in a Yahoo group, which is wholly unacceptable sourcing particularly if the people are still alive as some of them are. I would suggest something needs to be done about this. O Fenian (talk) 01:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Comments by CalvinTySirFozzie, I just saw your comment. Be careful for jumping into conclusions with your comment, "Unfortunately, the admins at the 110 Club have removed all the threads from the forum they were in (either moving them to a read only/members only forum, or deleting them). One could say that this is them either realizing what they're doing is not allowed, or taking it private, and we won't be able to tell. I'd say it's pretty damming however." As a matter of fact, the founder of the forum (who -- to the best of my knowledge -- has no Wikipedia account and definitely has no hand in all of this disputes going on) approved, ironically today, the recommendation that topics which made predictions of which supercentenarians may live or die within xx number of months were not appropriate for public view, and topics that covers debates or opinions that members would not want the public to be aware of were also not appropriate for public view, as well as topics in where other members or administrators would admonish other member for their mistakes (such as insulting another member) and where the administrators did not want to split or delete the whole topic so all those topics were moved to a private section of the forum. This is out of respect for our forum members as well as everyone on the Internet as well. SirFozzie, please feel free to ask me any more questions but please do not jump into conclusions like that. Much appreciated. Cheers, CalvinTy 05:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
@EdJohnston, thank you for the link to the EEML ArbCom case so I can take a look over there about this to better educate myself about previous precedents on canvassing. I understand your interpretation of canvassing; just that my concern is the last part of the hypothetical sentence: "...so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." That seems to imply that the editor is just notifying other editors about a current event and that the person is being neutral by saying "if you agree with me, then I suggest you go over there and state your opinion". It's not an imperative statement (i.e. an order), correct? Just wondering. In any case, I don't have the time to go over old topics on our forum to see what kind of wording were actually used (and plus, there is the COI issue with myself). I just took a quick look at the EEML ArbCom case, and noticed one apparent erroneous statement by ArbCom unless they meant exactly what they meant: "9) While discussion of Wikipedia and editing in channels outside of Wikipedia itself (such as IRC, mailing lists, or web forums) is unavoidable and generally appropriate, using external channels for coordination of activities that, on-wiki, would be inappropriate is also improper." Did they mean to say "generally inappropriate"? Did I just catch a mistake that nobody had yet, eh? :-) In any case, in good faith, I can only state and defend myself that I did not canvass anyone to the best of my knowledge, and that I only provided my opinions in some of my posts on the forum to those members who were bringing Wikipedia disputes to our attention. Much appreciated, CalvinTy 19:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC) @To all admins, would it be more appropriate if this RfE focuses solely on the originator's (David in DC) request for a two-week block on NickOrnstein for his failure to collaborate with other editors and persistence in re-introducing Yahoo Groups WOP citations into various articles? Considering that most of us are in agreement that Yahoo Groups WOP is not a reliable source, myself included, I don't see a justification for the assumption that "all of the 110 Club forum members are engaging in coordination efforts (even if some of them could be guilty of canvassing)". If itsmejudith or any other editor (and a non-administrator) decides to make a new RfE case, then that's where the The 110 Club forum members can defend their position, not here. I fully recommend that this "drumhead trial" come to a stop here & focus solely on the original RfE. Thanks, CalvinTy 22:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC) Statement by A Quest for KnowledgeAlthough NickOrnstein has not violated WP:3RR on any article, he has been edit-warring for days to include citatations to Yahoo World's Oldest People Group in multiple articles, including those which involve claims about living people:
Since this RfE was filed, NickOrnstein has made over 100 edits[33], and has still not responded to this RfE. I asked NickOrnstein when they planned on responding to this RfE[34] but have not received a response. Since he is apparently unwilling to discuss matters either here or on the relevant talk pages, and he shows no sign of ending his edit-war, he should be blocked until his conduct issues have been resolved. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Statement by BlueboarI have to echo the concerns that others have expressed. I have just had my own brief encounter with Nick on the issue of Yahoo groups, and he definitely seems to want to engage in a revert wars rather than discuss the matter on the talk page. The fact that this is ongoing and crossing over into multiple articles clearly indicates that admin action is needed. He is clearly violating the spirit of 3rr if not the letter. As he refuses to engage on talk pages, the only alternative is to get his attention through a block. Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Further comments by ItsmejudithPursuant to a suggestion by EdJohnston, I would like this AE request to be broadened to cover all the members of the 110 Club that have been involved in the recent off-wiki canvassing: I am notifying all of those users, plus the following who seem to be members of the group but not involved in recent canvassing: The following diffs, currently accessible to me through Google cache, show the pattern:
Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Further comments by CalvinTyItsmejudith, the link you provided regarding RYoung122 advising me (which definitely was not the case) would be exactly what I mean by "just because forum members are talking about a Wikipedia debate in a PUBLIC forum, they are not automatically guilty of canvassing". As you can see in that link, I asked where the request for deletion of the WikiProject subage was made (as RYoung122 stated in the original post). Melissa replied with the correct link. I reviewed the discussions, and I myself had some questions for DerbyCountyinNZ and David in DC. I also felt that I wanted to provide my own input in the RSN as well (keeping in mind that NOBODY asked me to go to the RSN and make any comment). Yes, RYoung122 at the end complimented me for making points logically and maturely. (LOL, he probably knows that is a skill that he needs practice with, and he probably would confess to, heh.) However, at least in my view, RYoung122 was not canvassing us in that particular thread. Looking at WP:CANVASS, the four criteria are (and my justification that no canvassing occurred in THAT particular thread only): Limited posting: The 110 Club longevity forum has only 50 validated members (20-25 active members) and nobody was "mass-posting" anything in that thread. I imagine that there are at least 10 members that also have a similar Wikipedia account as well. Neutral: Everyone in that thread was providing information about where everything was being covered. I also posted my thoughts from my edits. Nobody was pleading anyone else to "change something". Audience: it is not fair to say that the audience is "partisan" because all of the forum members are interested in longevity. Why should it be an automatic strike on us when we are talking about longevity articles on Wikipedia as well as the WikiProject's World's Oldest People -- which many of the same forum members/Wikipedia editors are also a project member? This "small community" cannot be guilty of partisanship "just because we are too closely associated to longevity". Transparency: we forum members all fully knew that The 110 Club was a public forum, available in Google Cache, so when we were participating in that particular thread, we were transparent about our own opinions and thoughts. Summary: That particular thread does not meet ANY of the four criteria of canvassing. Like I said earlier, I fear that this has become a ""drumhead trial", clumping up all members of a small longevity forum as "guilty" for canvassing. NOTE: I am not saying that no canvassing has occurred in the past, but I was not active on Wikipedia and was not familiar with the WP:CANVASS so even if I am a forum administrator there, I had no idea whether some members may have been actively canvassing at that time. That's why I would appreciate a separate RfE for any direct evidence of canvassing against any alleged members like what itsmejudith feels that RYoung122 has done so in canvassing, as well as SirFozzie's point of view here. Expanding this RfE only complicates matters because I fear that NickOrnstein's stubborness reflects poorly on other longevity editors such as myself for no reason. I even admonished him myself, but has anyone here cares that I'm being neutral -- or that doesn't matter -- "because you are a forum administrator over there at The 110 Club so you are a guilty party"? If so, that's disappointing. I really don't want to go through the chain of command, but I feel like I am backed into a corner. If necessary, I will have to request enforcement (however that works, but I fear that I have to escalate this matter to a higher level) against any & all editors and administrators who keep insisting on "clumping up" and "generalizing" all longevity editors together from a small forum with the perception of us being a "bad bunch of people and guilty of violating guidelines" when I'm certain that several of us like myself and Melissa are just expressing our opinions on our own accord and, to the best of our knowledge and faith, we have not violated any guidelines.
Request from ItsmejudithPlease, as this AE is about to close, could everyone be encouraged to join in discussion on the talk page of the WikiProject? Still called WP:WOP, WikiProject World's Oldest People, but there are suggestions to rename. I have a question there about splitting list articles and would appreciate comments, otherwise I will just go ahead and do it. What wouldn't be good is if there is no discussion, and then I go ahead, and then there is an edit war. Admins, could someone explain to NickOrnstein, per his question below, why I and David in DC are allowed to be in the WikiProject? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Suggesting a potential compromise by CalvinTy@admins, first, what is a discretionary sanction? Of more concern, why should every member of The 110 Club forum receive one automatically regardless of their level of involvement, if any, in a possible violation of any guidelines (which, to date, is quite debatable and has not been sufficiently proven)? So, rather, I have a potential compromise here: I think a statement from each forum member voluntarily stating that "We have now reviewed WP:CANVASS and WP:MEATPUPPET guidelines, and we acknowledge not to violate those guidelines, and that we will not take action at the direction of any other Wikipedia editor." would be sufficient? If we make this voluntarily statement, and then one of us violate it, then that's where a sanction or enforcement of a ban of some length would finally be appropriate. Regarding NickOrnstein's actions, if the administrators feel that there is a consensus for him to receive a two-week ban then enforce that. Would that be a good compromise? Regards, CalvinTy 11:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a nation, it's "laws" are not binding. It's a website, and a social experiment gone horribly wrong. Instead of being about consensus and collaboration, it has become a virtual-reality video game, where Wikipedia editors build social networks and gang up on others, establishing who is the most powerful. How about some FACTS: FACT: Both David in DC and Itsmejudith have a long laundry list of poor editing decisions, whether it's accusing others of being "meatpuppets" or deleting articles that existed for five-plus years, after canvassing for AFD support with a few regulars (Grismaldo, where are you?...) Here's just a few issues: 1. David in DC mass-canvassed with JJB in November 2010, mass-nominating or i-voting in coordination. That's CANVASSING and as usual, Wiki rules don't seem to apply to certain editors. 2. David in DC, from the beginning, hasn't understood the principle of "recusal" when one is an involved party. As an involved ArbCom person, it was not his job to be "ArbCom enforcer." This is just typical of him mis-using the Wikipedia system. 3. When David in DC accuses certain off-wiki groups of trying to use Wikipedia as a "web host," that is typical B.S. that he should be punished for, but gets away with. The GRG lists exist whether they're copied on Wikipedia or not. No one is off-loading anything. We do see the Wikipedia lists offer a few advantages, such as being able to be updated by anyone, not just a 70-year-old man when he is not busy (Dr. Coles). 4. Itsmejudith's "let's delete everything" ideas certainly don't make Wikipedia a better place. 5. Itsmejudith has coordinated with JJBulten and David in DC to CANVASS to "win" debates. 6. Some of Itsmejudith's merge and delete proposals were so preposterous that even JJB was against them. For example, she wanted to delete Oldest People and Longevity Myths. Many of her proposals might succeed, that doesn't mean the right decision was made. It means she chased anyone away who dared oppose. In fact, the real test of whether an editor is going against consensus is to see how much difference there would be if that person took a week off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disputed_supercentenarian_claimants Woah, is that David in DC voting again to delete this list? Do you people realize that the purpose of such lists are EDUCATIONAL...i.e., to show the reader, demographically, how common such age claims are. In the same way that kids enjoy lists of home run hitters (but might actually learn math as well), there is a value to these lists that biased, POV-pushing editors like Itsmejudith and David in DC won't or can't see. We already see that David in DC confuses making fun of others as humor...it's not. 7. I might be "topic-banned," but it has been David in DC and Itsmejudith that has prompted me to return to this issue, again. 8. Both David in DC and Itsmejudith continue to talk about me. Get over me. It's NOT about me. It's about YOU TWO pushing against consensus. FACT: I originally opposed Wikipedia list expansion as it would "mirror" GRG lists. Then I realized that the Wikipedia lists were mostly just listed to top-100, whereas the GRG has 1,000+ case lists. So, it's not really accurate to say that the Wikipedia lists were "mirrors." So (don't laugh), I'm going to propose that Itsmejudith and DavidinDC be simultaneously topic-banned along with anyone else the RFC decides to punish, and start over fresh with neutral third-party editors, not those who had a personal vendetta even before they came across the topic. Wikipedia claims that bans are not to punish but to make Wikipedia a better place. If Itsmejudith is busy hurling "meatpuppet" accusations without doing research first (just as DerbyNZ, or check the edit histories of Brendanology and even Nick Ornstein), that's detrimental to Wikipedia. If Itsmejudith is deleting articles left and right and David in DC is claiming that list notability is not established even if a source is notable...well, here's an analogy. If MLB.com is a reliable source, NO ONE is going to say that lists of most home runs hit can't be placed on Wikipedia. Yet in effect that's what David in DC has been arguing. Finally, it was the admin of the admins, Carcharoth, that advised me that off-wiki actions are outside the scope of Wikipedia. And I agree. It's the actions done on Wikipedia that should be punished, from Itsmejudith's "everyone's a meatpuppet" accusations and suggestions that scientific material be banished from religious articles (virgin birth of Jesus) to David in DC's confusing Census 2010 with Census 1910. Because if this is an encyclopedia, then we should want the editing work here to be objective, fair, neutral, and reflective of outside sources, not the personal whims of egotistical nobodys who hide behind fake ID's. Have a nice day. Ryoung122 05:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
More comments from Ryoung122Ed, that is the crux of the issue here. Yahoo groups are generally unreliable, and I agree. However, the WOP group could be described as a "self-published source" by an "expert" (that would be me) or other experts who post messages there, where they must be approved first. In reality, it's a TOOL. Suppose, for example, Silvo Torkar reported that the oldest woman in Slovenia is still alive at 109, but Wikipedia deleted the case because it was "unsourced". Why not source to Mr. Torkar's statement on the WOP group, which provides and archived record of not just who said it, but the year, month, and day the comment was made. As an "expert" on Slovenian centenarians, it seems reasonable to give someone's message like that to be reliable. That is a practical and sensible argument. Of course, I don't expect the practical or sensible here. Let's face it: just like the "driving 55mph" rule, it's impossible for all rules to be followed precisely at all times. That was the gist of WP:IAR. It wasn't about anarchy, it was about being able to make common-sense decisions about applying rules appropriately. An expert's credential are affected by misreporting. If someone's reporting is not generally reliable, they are likely to be "fired." Thus there are lots of incentives to "get it right" the first time. Again, I tried to do the right thing on Wikipedia, repeatedly. Had I not, I would have been like Louis Epstein, who long ago metaphorically thumbed his nose at the system. Wikipedia has failed to live up to its own rules, allowing power-grabbing editors to carve out metaphorical "witch-hunts" while they ignore the reliable-source material outside Wikipedia that is accepted by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Tokyo Times, Science Magazine, etc. The reality is that humans are not computers; they are governed by irrationality, not rationality. That is the conclusion one must draw from years of editing on Wikipedia. It has been noted that Wikipedia editors are disproportionately male and under age 30. Thus, it's not surprising that Wikipedia finds high schools, minor college athletes, and fictional TV characters notable, but fails to consider notable material on supercentenarians, even when the mainstream scientific journals and news reports deem it so. Ryoung122 06:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Refactored by moving from the uninvolved admin's section. Courcelles 06:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Result concerning NickOrnstein
Closing
|
Miradre
user notified of discretionary sanctions
|
---|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Miradre
I am not providing diffs at this time because of the nature of the problem. As this is civil POV-pushing no single diff is violating the sanctions, but rather the total editing pattern of the editor. I will start looking through Miradre's contributions tomorrow to begin providing diffs of the exhanges I find to be useful as examples of the conduct in question. Meanwhile, I direct the attention of the reviewing arbitrator to Talk:Race and intelligence and Talk:Race (classification of humans) where they can observe Miradre's interations with other editors for the past week. It is my claim that his editing pattern constitute disruption and civil POV-pushing, observe how his editing constantly issues ultimatums, opp challenges, flat rejections of the opposing argument, and red-herring type arguments.
{{{Diffs of prior warnings}}}
Comment to Sandstein@Sandstein: I believe that the request is actionable.
Discussion concerning MiradreStatement by MiradreEssentially we have a couple of editors who want me banned for on the talk page asking for concrete reasons for keeping the NPOV tag. They themselves contribute almost nothing to improving the contents of the articles in the area. I would be happy to participate in any process for resolving the content dispute.Miradre (talk) 09:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC) No, I am not Jagz. The sockpuppet investigation is many months old. As are the false allegations there regarding behavior.Miradre (talk) 09:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Comments aprockWhen Miradre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) started editing it was clear from his editing behavior that he is an editor with significant experience editing Wikipedia, so a sock puppet investigation was initiated to determine if he was any of the recently banned users from the R/I ArbCom case. Much of Miradre's WP:SPA and WP:CPUSH behavior was originally detailed in that SPI case. In the SPI, Miradre denied being one of the original four accounts listed. And while he did not deny that he is banned user Jagz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), further investigation into a link between those two accounts proved inconclusive. During the SPI, he was made aware of the arbitration, and discusses it on that page. I do not think he was made specifically aware of potential sanctions. His behavior has remained generally consistent with that of a single purpose account who's goal is to promote a specific viewpoint. He has generally gotten a free pass from most editors for three reasons. First, while he is pushing a specific viewpoint he also makes a lot of constructive edits. Second, the burnout induced by the ArbCom case caused a lot of editors to disengage from the topic. Third, he does a good job of avoiding edit wars and adhering to the letter of editing policy. At this point in time he has made substantial changes to the Race and Intelligence article consistent with promoting his personal viewpoint. When he met resistance to his attempt to remove the WP:NPOV tag, he dismissed every criticism and declared that unless his interpretation of policy was satisfied then there was no WP:NPOV problem, this despite ongoing discussions about general and specific issues involving five separate editors:
If you read the talk page, it essentially amounts to one giant wall of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, with every concern either dismissed or treated cosmetically in a way that does not address the problem. Thus begat the giant wall of text to defend the placement of a single WP:NPOV tag in one of the most contentious articles in the encyclopedia. Another aspect that of his editing is an over reliance on -- and misuse of -- primary sources which he represents as secondary sources [46]. Other behavior problems that he exhibits were detailed in the SPI with diffs.
Comments by others about the request concerning MiradreResult concerning Miradre
|
Passionless
Passionless blocked indefinitely by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs), rendering the matter moot. T. Canens (talk) 22:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Passionless
Violation of npov, incivility, battleground behavior.
Discussion concerning PassionlessStatement by PassionlessThis will take awhile, but I will begin,
Comment by GatoclassPer T. Canens, this case is out of process since the edits in question do not fall under the domain of ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 22:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Passionless
Result concerning Passionless
HJ Mitchell has blocked Passionless indefinitely. Therefore, this request is now moot. T. Canens (talk) 22:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC) |
Gnevin
Request withdrawn. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Gnevin
Discussion concerning GnevinStatement by GnevinThe stretch to include the GAA in the scope of the trouble arb com is ridiculous this is a sporting article not a troubles or Irish nationalism article, anyway I undid the edits are requested by the user Gnevin (talk) 23:34, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning GnevinI would like to withdraw this request as Gnevin has now self-reverted. Mooretwin (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Gnevin
|
Doktorbuk
No action taken. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Doktorbuk
Discussion concerning DoktorbukStatement by DoktorbukThe paragraph in question is below - "Notwithstanding Gerry Adams' public statement rejecting his new position,[11] the Parliamentary authorities in Westminster have removed him from the list of MPs[12] and the seat of Belfast West is now considered vacant.[13]" This breaks down into these parts -
I respect the decision of those involved in deciding the outcome of this case.
Additional Edit 12/03 The article Belfast West by-election, 2011 has been copy-edited by another editor, not connected to either party in this case. The offending paragraph has been removed. I consider this Request to be no longer necessary. doktorb wordsdeeds 01:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Doktorbuk
Result concerning Doktorbuk
Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case, the 1RR restriction looks like a community-imposed restriction and not an Arbitration Committee-imposed one. It is at any rate not clear that this 1RR restriction has at any time been imposed by a vote of the Arbitration Committee or by a person acting under its delegated authority. I am therefore of the opinion that it cannot be enforced in this venue or with AE authority. (There might have been a request for clarification about this, but I no longer remember). Sandstein 14:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
|
Jacurek
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Jacurek
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Jacurek, who has a long history of disruption and sanctions relating to eastern European topics, after coming back from a ban, has focussed his editing almost entirely on lame edit-warring over the inclusion of Polish, German or Lithuanian geographical terms in the leads of various articles.
- On Vilnius University: [71][72][73][74]
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius: [75][76][77]
- On Bernardine Cemetery: [78][79][80] [81](in the usual old tag-teams, with Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) (aka Radeksz) against Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) and Lokyz (talk · contribs)). Also possible IP sock: [82]
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius: [83][84][85]
- On Suvalkija: [86][87][88]
He also made the obvious WP:POINT move of removing the German name from Gdansk [89], explicitly in retaliation, and in blatant breach of the long-standing Gdansk rules.
More edit-warring just under 3RR elsewhere: on Ukrainische_Hilfspolizei, [90][91][92]
One thing that's troubling is that the same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days are still showing up together on the same articles regularly in many of these cases.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
not applicable, has long history of Digwuren and EEML sanctions
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- renewed revert restriction at the least, preferably full topic ban from geographical naming issues, or full ban
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- I would take action myself here, as I have done before, if not for the fact that in one of the contentious naming issues cited above I gave my own editorial opinion earlier. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Re. to Piotrus' comment below: asking "who gave me the diffs" is a pretty serious assumption of bad faith all by itself. I'm perfectly able to collect diffs myself. I saw something light up on Jacurek's talkpage (which happened to be still on my watchlist from time immemorial), and out of curiousity took a look at what he had been up to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [93]
Discussion concerning Jacurek
Statement by Jacurek
Recently, I focused my work on adding missing alternative names to the articles related to shared Lithuanian, Polish, Jewish, Belorussian or Ukrainian history and heritage following general naming policy . I have beed editing without violating any standards of behaviour and in line with normal editorial process. All my edits/reverts presented here are spread out over time, discussed by me [94], [95], [96] [97], [98], [99] or in line with discussion I followed [100] and ALL are supported by the WP:NCGN. I stated in my edit summaries why I'm doing such edits and the polices I followed [101]
I was adding alternative names in various languages:
- Belorussian and Ukrainian names to Polish places:
- Polish and Yiddish names to Ukrainian places:
[[104]]
- Lithuanian names to Polish places:
[[105]] [[106]] [[107]] [[108]] [[109]] [[110]]
- ...and finally Polish names to the Lithuanian places:
[111]] [112]] [113]] [114]] [115]] Here however, all my edits were immediately reverted by Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) and Lokyz (talk · contribs)) I was called a troll etc. [116], [117] Below are just few diff's as an examples of the name removals: [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] [124] [125]
- As far as removing a German name from the lead of the Gdansk [126] article I reverted my own edit [[127]] from December in line with this discussion [128] and linked this talk page in my edit summary [129]. This edit was NOT to make any point.
- As far as Ukrainische_Hilfspolizei, [130][131][132] each two edit are different and this one is not even mine [133]
- As far as IP sock: [134] - this is not me and I wonder why FP can so easily and without any proof accuse people of using socks?
Why was I singled out and accused of violating the polices by Future Perfect at Sunrise? EXACTLY the same report could have been filed by him on user Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) or Lokyz (talk · contribs):
- On Vilnius University: [135],[136], [137],[138], [139], [140]
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius: [141], [142], [143], [144], [145]
- On Bernardine Cemetery: [146], [147], [148], [149], [150], [151], [152], [153], [154], [155], [156], [157]
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius: [158], [159], [160],
- On Suvalkija: [161], [162], [163], [164],
The bottom line is that I was following normal editorial process, watching revert count limitations and all my edits were supported by the WP:NCGN. We really have an opportunity now to resolve ongoing problem of removal by some Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles related to the Polish-Lithuanian heritage and reach the agreement thanks to discussion here [165]. I echo this comment [166] %100. Please Sandstain, look outside the AE box this only time and the problem will gone.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jacurek
Comment by Volunteer Marek
There's an ongoing discussion about the proper way of handling alternative names here [167]. The underlying problem is complete disregard for naming policy on the part of Dr. Dan/Lokyz/MK. This is compounded by the fact that there is some confusion over what the actual policy is. Hence the discussion.
Jacurek's edits at Gdansk where a response - and in line with - to the discussion as it was occurring at Naming conventions (the diff above), with comments provided by a third opinion (which I requested) at Vilnius university [168], and are in agreement with views expressed by such individuals like User:Novickas and User:Deacon of Pndapetzim who are about as far as humanely and even super-humanely possible from being "same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days." As such Jacurek's edits are part of the standard BRD cycle, are not edit warring, and none of them are in any way a breach of policy.
Throughout Jacurek has remained calm and civil despite several provocations. In particular, Dr. Dan has made several personal attacks against various users:
- [169] Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
- [170] Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
- [171] Dr. Dan taunting Piotrus, shortly after coming off an interaction ban with him: ("It's nice to have you back editing after your sabbatical. It must have been an unpleasant experience. ")
- [172] Dr. Dan implies that editors are "nationalistic, chauvinistic"
At the naming conventions discussion Deacon of Pndapetzim, who I think can fairly be characterized as an "opponent" of people who used to be on the Eastern European mailing list has stated: Without wishing to offend anyone, my experience of other language names in leads is that they function in practice as nationalist scent markings. Jacurek's edits were completely in line with this sentiment.
Additionally Deacon stated, in reference to inclusion of German names in ledes of articles on Polish places: Can't say I approve of most of those edits. - again, in line with Jacurek's above edits.
Likewise, Deacon said: in those cases this should be in the main text with citations not just in brackets at the lead, where it looks like simple nationalist scent-marking and is thus provocative.
At Vilnius University, user Novickas, who can also be seen as usually on the other side of the issue stated: Yes, I think all articles ought to follow WP:Lead, which emphasizes concision and readability, but leaves room for an entity's multiple names by way of a dedicated name section. - again in reference to the inclusion of German names in Polish places.
As such Jacurek's edits are not in any way a way of making a POINT but rather a response to what people are saying the policy is.
Did I mention that none of Jacurek's edits in any way violated any kind of policy what so ever?
Finally, let me point out that a discussion on the subject is actually ongoing and amazingly, for like the first time in a long while it is actually civil, calm and is even starting to look productive, people who previously have very strongly disagreed with each other in the past might actually be able to work something out and about the last freakin thing that is going to help here is a completely pointless and baseless AE report such as this one which good money says will do nothing but attract the usual infighting, bickering and sniping.
What is the point of this AE report? How is it not counter productive? Why do you find it necessary to sabotage a potentially productive discussion?Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Response to Sandstein's suggestion and Ed Johnston
You can't judge/sanction editors based on whether they're "engaged in a campaign of mass removal or mass addition" if the editor involved is following established naming guidelines. For comparison look at User:HerkusMonte's edits [173] (and I wish to be 100% clear that this is no way a criticism of Herkus), particularly all the edits with the edit summary "lang-de" which in the recent past have comprised the majority of Herkus' editing on Wikipedia. Jacurek's edits are no different than Herkus' and neither editor did anything wrong. The only difference is that when Herkus "engages in his campaign of mass addition" he IS NOT immediately reverted by tag teams of Polish editors who also refuse to discuss the issue meaningfully and some of whom engage in personal attacks - but this does happen with addition of Polish names to places with shared Polish and Lithuanian history. Unlike Jacurek, Herkus is left alone, because he is more or less following current naming policy (again, if that is the appropriate policy is another question) - just like Jacurek was.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- We're not examining mass additions or removals per se, but edit wars. Whether the reverts conform with any naming policy or guideline is irrelevant for the purpose of this request, because the edit-warring policy does not exempt such reverts. Sandstein 18:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Response to this "list" business Uhh, not sure what this list is supposed to be or what it is supposed to accomplish (in fact, it's a bad idea to begin with) but for what it's worth:
- I've never edited St. Anne's Church, Vilnius or Cathedral Square, Vilnius.
- I made one edit to Suvalkija back in August (so 5+ months ago) after Lokyz removed the name with an edit summary that made no sense, but I didn't make any further edits even after he blind reverted me literally within minutes ([174], [175], [176]) (btw, please note that "Suvalkų kraštas", the Lithuanian term, has been in the article on the Suwałki Region for something like 3 years straight and no Polish editor ever tried to remove it - which is quite telling when you compare it to the situation at Suvalkija).
- On Vilnius University, after observing the blind reverts by Lokyz [177], [178], I started a discussion on talk on March 5th [179] without making any edits myself. Please note that Lokyz's edit summary justification for his revert was: PLease use talk page before starting edit war. (on an edit war he started) - however, once I started a discussion on talk he didn't even bother to reply or actually discuss. Hence, four days later on March 9th, I made the change to the article - this was my single edit to the article. Of course it got reverted within minutes (again - well, actually this time it took him two hours) [180]. At that point I requested a third opinion [181], still not making any edits to the article myself. Novickas at this time edited the article by expanding the names section which is fine with me. Note the pattern here: Lokyz, Dr. Dan and MK blind revert, while at the same time admonishing users to "discuss on talk" or claiming that there is "no consensus" yet, they then don't even bother discussing things when a discussion is initiated. If they do discuss the discussion is very quickly derailed by irrelevant strawmen (like discussion of whether the article on cat should have the Polish "kot" in it, even though no one has ever proposed that - you can also ask Kotniski about how productive these "discussions" tend to be and why that is).
- On [[[Bernardine Cemetery] I was also the one who initiated the discussion on talk in the first place, way back in October [182] (though note previous personal attacks by Lokyz, who calls Jacurek dyslexic and says "Dyslexic people are amusing" which is extremely offensive in its own right, no matter who it is directed at). Jacurek likewise tried to engage in good faithed discussion [183] (note also Dr. Dan's mocking of Kotniski [184] in response to [185] with the "Er,..." parody of Kotniski's statement - seriously how is meaningful discussion possible in such circumstances?). Since the talk page consensus appeared to be for the inclusion of the name, and since Lokyz and Dr.Dan ceased participating in the discussion, I made one edit to the article [186] restoring the name (my edits in November where just a standard expansion of the article) on March 7th, or three months after I initiated discussion). The edit was again reverted within minutes by Lokyz [187] with an edit summary in which he purposefully used my previous name (in what I took to be a form of harassment), despite the fact that I had previously asked him specifically not to do that [188] and to which he agreed. I made no further edits to the article after that but instead brought the matter to talk again. Here's the sad/ironic thing - recently through a joint Polish-Lithuanian effort the cemetery was restored as a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian friendship and joint history, and the Lithuanian government funded a sign with the Polish name at the entrance to the cemetery - since generally public signs written in Polish are banned in Lithuania this was a "big deal". But apparantly, some editors are more nationalistic than the Lithuanian government.
Bottom line: I made one edit at Suvalkija which was reverted within minutes and I made no subsequent edits. I made one edit at Vilnius University and when it was reverted, within less than three hours, asked for third opinion. At Bernardine Cemetery I initiated discussion on talk and only after it seemed like an agreement was reached for inclusion, and having given it enough time (3 months) did I add the name. This too was reverted within minutes and I didn't edit the article any further. I think the picture that emerges here is crystal clear.
I also got to ask why you are limiting this to just these articles? MK regularly edit wars with Belorussians editors over similar matters [189]. Herkus adds German names to Polish places all the time - but never gets reverted because Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy. Why isn't that relevant?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment by MyMoloboaccount
This seems to be actually Jacure trying to edit articles per the definition of naming policy and using standards accepted in naming on wiki like in articles about cities like Gdańsk. There is currently a constructive discussion going on regarding this here[190] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Piotrus
I am rather disappointed by FPS here.
First, I'd like to ask: who gave you those diffs and requested that you post to AE on their behalf? It's not like you have edited any of the articles in question, nor have you been a participant to any talk page discussions, as far as I am aware.
Second, I really hoped that the established editors with no axes to grind, in particular, respected admins (and I do respect FPS), would not use the "specter of EEML" poisoning the well argument. Instead of concentrating on editors who are creating the battleground through baiting and incivility (see VM post above), let's just go for the good, old EEML members, because, well, they are EEML, hence evil, hence the source of all problems, right? Somebody is being incivil to them? They surely deserved it. There is an edit war? Surely, they are the only guilty party.
Third, Jacurek has not violated any policy. Has 3RR been violated, even once? No. Has CIV been violated, even once? No. Regarding [191], this edit is in line with WP:NCGN, and the implication of this for Gdansk rule need to be discussed; I recently raised this on talk there. As things stand, however, NCGN explicitly suggests moving of alt. names from lead to a dedicated section and states they should not be restored, and Jacurek was acting within NCGN to the letter (now, I started a discussion on talk to discuss whether this letter is correct and benefits Wikipedia, but this is hardly an AE issue). Lastly, yes, there has been a slow edit war at some articles, but in most if not all cases, Jacurek is enforcing NCGN, where other editors, propagating battleground and disruption, are attempting to go against policies on those articles. NCGN supports foreign name in articles as long as they are significant (and NCGN has nice, simple check for significance - 10% of English google sources). On Cathedral Square, Vilnius (talk) I've shown NCGN applies, yet Jacurek's opponents have not bothered to discuss it - they just revert him. Ditto for Bernardine Cemetery. Nobody has done an analysis for St. Anne's Church, Vilnius, but I expect NCGN applies as well. On two other articles, in Vilnius University the nameing section was just expanded enough to warrant an end to inclusion of the name in lead. I'd have to look at Suvalkija more closely. Ukrainische Hilfspolizei seems totally unrelated to that and I'll have to review it more closely again.
Bottom line, Jacurek seems not to have violated any policies, most of his reverts are policy-supported (whereas most of those by his opponents are not), so how about the admins here focus on incivil, baiting editors and give the rest of us some breathing ground?
All that said, 1RR for everyone would be a good voluntary rule to declare. I hereby do so for my self, for the next month on all naming-affected articles, and I would strongly suggest everyone else follows suit. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Kotniski
Echoing most of what Piotrus says, I note that this issue will never be sorted out by applying unilateral sanctions against a randomly chosen editor or two on one side of the debate. It's been going on for years; somehow those who consistently remove non-Lithuanian names from Lithuania-related articles seem to be exempted from any kind of rebuke or sanction (which of course in no way justifies the pointy removal of non-Polish names from Poland-related articles) - but in any case, it's necessary to resolve the underlying issues, through some kind of mediation or preferably involvement from the community at large, to work out the best ways to present this kind of important information to readers without being dictated to by those on various sides who are clearly driven mainly by irrational nationalist sentiment. --Kotniski (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- AE is not really equipped procedurally for broad reviews covering many editors and their whole editing history. That would need a request for an arbitration case. But I suspect that after WP:DIGWUREN and WP:EEML the Committee is so fed up with this whole ensemble of editors and their obscure historical grievances that it would just indef topic-ban them all and throw away the key. And I suspect that we are coming to a point at AE where we'll come to the same conclusion eventually, one editor at a time. Sandstein 16:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- My point is that we need to stop focusing on editors and their "editing history" (whether one, two or many) and address the substantial issues of disagreement. You're right that AE (and indeed ArbCom generally) is not equipped procedurally for anything except the same old types of editor-focused action which are already known not to work; which is why we need to start thinking outside the AE box here.--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, if people are trying to reach some new agreement at the geographical names guideline, that's great and I'm all for it. But Jacurek's editing was not directed towards creating such an agreement. He was just edit-warring. His talk page contributions are few, and all seem to be focussed merely on asserting his own position, which is rather overtly of the type "treat geographical names as symbolic badges of recognition of historical national claims of possesion". And it is precisely this mentality that is the problem here. Whatever eventual solution there may be for these questions, Jacurek's editing has been persistently part not of the solution but of the problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not true. I was just discussing the issue trying to reach agreement here [[192]] for example and on countess other talk pages. I was adding alternative names in various languages, your accusation of me trying to claim a "national possession" is ABSOLUTELY not true. FP - Can you please wait for my statement before posting more accusations? I should find some time this weekend to respond.--Jacurek (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- FP, as I said earlier, I do respect you, and I think you are partially right here. Jacurek was doing quite a few reverts. However, as I, VM and he himself pointed out, 1) he was not alone and 2) most if not all of his edits were in line with the policies (unlike those of his opponents). I wish he had used the talk more and reverted less, but he is less guilty than many others, and unlike some, he has been civil, and he has been following the NCGN policy more often then not. I don't understand why you have singled him out in this report? Saying this, I'd also strongly urge Jacurek to follow my advice and declare that he will voluntarily restrict himself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming (and I urge others to follow mine and hopefully, his suit in this). I'd also suggest that the admins here try to be more creative than blocks and topic bans (lot of good have they done in the past, as we can see) and instead impose a bunch of 1RR restriction on a number of editors who focus on reverting (1RR restriction is the correct scalpel-level solution for revert warring, although I know that some people prefer to nuke anything nail shaped instead...I hope this mentality will not be seen in this discussion). For those who promise to voluntarily restrain themselves but are later shown they didn't keep the word, I'd of course suggest harsher penalties in the future (community patience is not unlimited). I will end by saying that if the outcome of this AE will be punishing only one of the edit warring editors, and at that one who was mostly in line with NCGN and who was, unlike some of the others, civil, it will send a pretty bad message out. It would also be nice if people would stop dredging the "EEML specter", poisoning the well with "if an involved editor was a party to the EEML case, 100% of the problem lies with him" argument (intentionally or not, this is the effect I am seeing). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I have no problem with voluntarily restricting myself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming, please consider this comment as my commitment. However my commitment alone will not eliminate the problem of removal by few Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles that share common Polish-Lithuanian heritage. There is hope that this amazingly constructive discussion that is going on here [193] will result in new rules being drafted and the issue will be resolved. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- FP, as I said earlier, I do respect you, and I think you are partially right here. Jacurek was doing quite a few reverts. However, as I, VM and he himself pointed out, 1) he was not alone and 2) most if not all of his edits were in line with the policies (unlike those of his opponents). I wish he had used the talk more and reverted less, but he is less guilty than many others, and unlike some, he has been civil, and he has been following the NCGN policy more often then not. I don't understand why you have singled him out in this report? Saying this, I'd also strongly urge Jacurek to follow my advice and declare that he will voluntarily restrict himself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming (and I urge others to follow mine and hopefully, his suit in this). I'd also suggest that the admins here try to be more creative than blocks and topic bans (lot of good have they done in the past, as we can see) and instead impose a bunch of 1RR restriction on a number of editors who focus on reverting (1RR restriction is the correct scalpel-level solution for revert warring, although I know that some people prefer to nuke anything nail shaped instead...I hope this mentality will not be seen in this discussion). For those who promise to voluntarily restrain themselves but are later shown they didn't keep the word, I'd of course suggest harsher penalties in the future (community patience is not unlimited). I will end by saying that if the outcome of this AE will be punishing only one of the edit warring editors, and at that one who was mostly in line with NCGN and who was, unlike some of the others, civil, it will send a pretty bad message out. It would also be nice if people would stop dredging the "EEML specter", poisoning the well with "if an involved editor was a party to the EEML case, 100% of the problem lies with him" argument (intentionally or not, this is the effect I am seeing). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not true. I was just discussing the issue trying to reach agreement here [[192]] for example and on countess other talk pages. I was adding alternative names in various languages, your accusation of me trying to claim a "national possession" is ABSOLUTELY not true. FP - Can you please wait for my statement before posting more accusations? I should find some time this weekend to respond.--Jacurek (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, if people are trying to reach some new agreement at the geographical names guideline, that's great and I'm all for it. But Jacurek's editing was not directed towards creating such an agreement. He was just edit-warring. His talk page contributions are few, and all seem to be focussed merely on asserting his own position, which is rather overtly of the type "treat geographical names as symbolic badges of recognition of historical national claims of possesion". And it is precisely this mentality that is the problem here. Whatever eventual solution there may be for these questions, Jacurek's editing has been persistently part not of the solution but of the problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- My point is that we need to stop focusing on editors and their "editing history" (whether one, two or many) and address the substantial issues of disagreement. You're right that AE (and indeed ArbCom generally) is not equipped procedurally for anything except the same old types of editor-focused action which are already known not to work; which is why we need to start thinking outside the AE box here.--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Hodja Nasreddin
I followed several AE cases to understand what must be done by someone who wants to edit conflict-free, especially in the area of discretionary sanctions. Surprisingly, this boils down to a very simple rule: do not edit war under any circumstances. Even if you revert once a week, someone will bring you to AE. It goes like that: no reverts -> no conflicts -> no sanctions. This apply to all sides and almost all AE cases.Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Jacurek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I encourage editors to make only comments directly pertinent to the request, because "the usual infighting, bickering and sniping", as Volunteer Marek puts it, is likely to WP:BOOMERANG in the form of sanctions. Fut. Perf., I agree that the request looks actionable at first glance, but without a WP:DIGWUREN notification diff, we are forbidden to act on it. Sandstein 14:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- Jacurek has been sanctioned (and, through each sanction, obviously, also warned) under DIGWUREN half a dozen times. Just look at the log. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, as a preliminary opinion, I think that there is actionable evidence that several editors have engaged in edit-warring to remove or add names from the leads of the articles named by Fut.Perf. and Jacurek, as can be seen in the history of e.g. Bernardine Cemetery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I suggest that we compile a consolidated list of reverts by editor and decide on that basis whether to sanction anybody, after requesting the involved editors to comment. If not other admin disagrees, I'm going to start compiling such a list. Sandstein 06:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I believe that any campaigns of mass removal or mass addition of alternate-language names should be looked into. Sandstein's idea of making a consolidated list of reverts sounds good. EdJohnston (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've started the list below; all admins are welcome to help complement it. We should try to cover all previously EE-warned editors and recent edit wars. Sandstein 19:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Name-changing reverts in the EE topic area
Jacurek
Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (warning), partially copied from the request
- On Vilnius University: 11-03-0511-03-0511-03-0911-03-09 (adding Polish)
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius: 11-03-0511-03-0511-03-08 (adding Polish)
- On Bernardine Cemetery: 11-03-0411-03-0711-03-08 11-03-08 (adding Polish)
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius: 11-03-0611-03-0711-03-08 (adding Polish)
- On Suvalkija: 03-0503-0503-06 (adding Polish)
- On Gdańsk: 03-12 (removing German)
Previous sanctions: many blocks up to 3 months for topic-related misconduct; WP:DIGWUREN 1RR restriction (2009) and interaction ban (2010); WP:EEML#Jacurek and WP:EEML#Jacurek topic banned (6 months in Dec 2009)
Volunteer Marek
Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), previously editing as Radeksz (warning)
- On Vilnius University: 11-03-09 (adding Polish)
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius: none
- On Bernardine Cemetery: 11-03-07 (adding Polish)
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius: none
- On Suvalkija: 10-08-16 (adding Polish)
- On Gdańsk: 11-03-11 (removing German)
Previous sanctions: Three non-overturned topic-related blocks; WP:EEML#Radeksz and WP:EEML#Radeksz topic banned (rescinded in June 2010)
M.K
M.K (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (no warning found)
- On Vilnius University: none
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius: 10-02-28, 10-03-04 (removing Belarusian, Polish)
- On Bernardine Cemetery: 08-04-21, 08-04-22, 08-07-19, 08-08-12, 08-08-18, 08-08-22, 08-11-05, 10-10-21, 11-03-08, 11-03-08 (removing Polish)
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius: none
- On Suvalkija: none
- On Gdańsk: none
Previous sanctions: none
Dr. Dan
Dr. Dan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning?), partially copied from Jacurek's response
- On Vilnius University:
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius:
- On Bernardine Cemetery:
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius:
- On Suvalkija:
- On Gdańsk:
Previous sanctions: ?
Lokyz
Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning?), partially copied from Jacurek's response
- On Vilnius University:
- On St. Anne's Church, Vilnius:
- On Bernardine Cemetery:
- On Cathedral Square, Vilnius:
- On Suvalkija:
- On Gdańsk:
Previous sanctions: ?
Lapsed Pacifist
Blocked |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lapsed Pacifist
Not applicable
Discussion concerning Lapsed PacifistStatement by Lapsed PacifistComments by others about the request concerning Lapsed PacifistResult concerning Lapsed Pacifist
|
Jalapenos do exist
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Jalapenos do exist
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General_1RR_restriction
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive78#Jalapenos_do_exist
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [196]. Reversion of this edit. With diff #2 below: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
- [197]. Reversion of this edit. With diff #1 above: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
- [198] Gross violation of WP:NPOV through the creation of another heavily biased article from this user. See further explanation below.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [199] Warning by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Topic ban.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
On December 20 last year, Jalapenos do exist was banned from making more than one global revert per day on I-P related articles, for a period of three months. This came on top of the 1RR restriction that was imposed on all editors in the I-P topic area. The first two diffs in the evidence section above demonstrate that Jalapenos has violated both restrictions by making two clear reverts on the same article only 8 hours apart.
The third diff above, represents the state of the article as Jalapenos created it before others started to make substantial edits to it. I submit that the article he created represents a gross violation of NPOV, for several reasons:
- As with other I-P articles Jalapenos has created, this article completely omitted any statements from Palestinian moderates, presenting only extreme or hardline points of view. Thus, we learn in the intro that Palestinians in Rafah celebrated in the streets, but nowhere in the article was it mentioned that Palestinian residents of Awarta condemned the attack. We learned that Al-Aqsa called the attack "heroic" and Hamas justified it, but not that the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority condemned it. Nor did the article mention that the attack may have been carried out in retaliation for the killing of two Palestinian teenagers from Awarta last year. I was able to find all this information in five minutes from the sources that Jalapenos himself provided: [200][201] Jalapenos must have read them, but he has chosen to simply omit any information that might detract from his one-sided presentation of Palestinians as bloodthirsty and vengeful.
- Jalapenos included not one, but three horrific images of bodies of the victims. All three images were quickly deleted from Commons by an admin, but not before J. had reverted the removal of only one of them by another user (see diff #1 above). Note that J. gave no reason for his revert.
- Jalapenos restored the information about Palestinians in Rafah celebrating the killings after I had removed it as wp:undue in the lead (see diff #2 above). He gave no explanation for his revert, in common with his usual practice. Nor did he leave any explanation on the talk page. At the moment he reverted it, he must have been aware that the residents of Awarta had had an opposite response, calling the killings bestial, but for Jalapenos only the response of the Rafahns merits inclusion in the intro.
Jalapenos has a long history of creating heavily biased content on this encyclopedia, as a look at his editing history will demonstrate. I'd like to think the user is capable of reform but I'm afraid I see no evidence of it with this latest series of edits. I am therefore requesting a topic ban for this user. Gatoclass (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Response to Jalapenos
J. states that he was merely responding to a request to move the picture, but Biosketch's comment on the talk page included the comment: please consider that plastering photos of the victims all over the article is nonconstructive editing.[202] Clearly, he felt that the addition of three pictures was excessive. Jalapenos ignored this concern in restoring the image.
Regardless, the condition of the article before others made substantial changes was demonstrably one-sided, to a degree that I think ought to be considered unacceptable. Excluding all but the most extreme Palestinian viewpoints and plastering the article with graphic images of "dead babies", to quote User:Y, should surely be evidence enough of that. Gatoclass (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm withdrawing the violation of 1RR charge. I missed the fact that Jalapenos had restored the image to a different section, and that he might have believed that by doing so he was responding to Biosketch's main concern. He still could, I think, have asked for clarification, but I think this can no longer be described as a clearcut revert. My apologies to Jalapenos and the adjudicating admins for the error.
- In regards to the other part of the case, I will probably have more to say tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist
Statement by Jalapenos do exist
I create a pretty good article almost single handedly, and instead of getting thanked, first I get hit with a frivolous AfD (snow kept)[204], and now this bullshit.
In edit #1, a user had removed an image of a victim from the Reactions section with the statement "inappropriately situated, no connection to Reactions"[205]; I agreed, so I restored the image to the Victims section, explaining what I did and why.[206] A very mundane edit in the course of upkeep on an article I created, and by no means a revert. So much for the 1RR allegation.
The NPOV allegation is nonsense. I really don't feel like going through all the falsehoods and carefully constructed half-truths, but if you just look at this article and my other articles, you can see that they are not biased, and many editors have said as much. I'm proud of the fact that I've received compliments from editors with declared sympathies on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Please take a good, long look at Gatoclass' editing and complaint history. What's going on here is that Gatoclass has a strong partisan POV regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, he seeks to imprint his POV on any he article he can (typically articles where someone else did the real work), he relentlessly bullies anyone who gets in his way, and he attempts to manipulate the AE process for this purpose. Of course, people who share his partisan POV will support these attempts, and people who oppose it will oppose them. You guys can either find a way to put a stop to this behavior, or you can let your time get wasted with drama and watch as sensible editors continue to disappear from this area out of frustration. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Response to Gatoclass
Having apparently abandoned the 2RR allegation, Gatoclass is now clutching at the idea that I ignored Biosketch's concerns when restoring a photo to the Victims section. Not exactly an issue for AE, but in any case Biosketch has explicitly stated "I support displaying one photo in the Victims section, as a relevant document illustrating the event with which the article is concerned"[207]. My position is similar, and we editors who are actually writing the article are, at this very moment, having a civil and rather nuanced discussion on what to do with the photos.[208] Cptnono, NortyNort and Biosketch essentially agree with me, and Robofish essentially agrees with Y, who unilaterally deleted all the photos by invoking WP:IAR. I agree with Biosketch that meanwhile the deletion "should be reverted pending a more articulate explanation", and you might say that our concern is being ignored, but I am bound by 1RR. Meanwhile, Gatoclass, who has contributed nothing to the article except a short series of POV-serving edits, has simply not participated in the discussion. And why should he, when he can circumvent the normal consensus-building procedures and just force his partisan position on the article by gaming AE? I guess that he will soon receive assistance from Mkativerata, who has not sullied himself with actual discussion on the talk page either. That's how it goes. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Mkativerata
In addition to the substantial evidence filed above, a few other issues demonstrate the relentless POV-pushing of JdE on this article:
- Falsified linking of the attack to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. This was the article before anyone else really touched it. It said Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. Plainly, this statement is designed to push a POV that Fatah, and thus the PA, is linked to the attacks. The statement falsifies the source cited. The source says nothing of Fatah releasing a statement. Absolutely nothing. The source actually says that the PA (controlled by Fatah) was "sceptical" of a statement supposedly released by the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. Of course, the main content of the source is to show that Fatah and the PA condemened the attacks. But JdE's article makes no mention of that, instead choosing to falsify the source to implicate Fatah. The fact that JdE's content also violated the copyright of the source cited demonstrates the extreme rush in which this hatchet job of an article was prepared.
- Of course, we later found out that in fact the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades had nothing to do with the attack. In these two edits I added a more up-to-date source saying that al-Aqsa denied involvement, and that the "statement" claiming responsibility was issued by a random splinter group that uses al-Aqsa's name. But despite the evidence to the contrary, JdE had to persist in restoring the perjorative links to Fatah despite the source used being obviously out of date and overtaken by more accurate sources (I'd edit the article again... but 1RR).
- As per Gatoclass, the article took great pains to mention anything that could reflect badly on the Palestinian administration. But JdE conspicuously ignored information from the same sources that could provide a more balanced view, such as the condemnations by PA, the reaction of residents of Awarta.
Breaches of 1RR are forgivable, and it seems there weren't any here. But POV-pushing by source falsification and selective inclusion of perjorative material cannot be tolerated. This is exactly what topic bans were designed for. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist
I was heavily involved in the Itamar article yesterday and also, albeit to a much lesser extent, with the Itamar attack article that split off of it. My immediately following comments may therefore be considered, and may indeed be, biased. On the matter of Revert #1, in all fairness it ought not to be classified as a Revert. I removed a photo placed in the Reactions sections, feeling that that was not an appropriate place for it; whereupon User:Jalapenos do exist proceeded to restore the photo in the Victims section – which, at least in relative terms, was a more appropriate place for it (or less inappropriate, depending on how you want to construe it).
I can sympathize with User:Gatoclass' remark about the article taking on what could be considered, and indeed may have been, a biased character. I commented to that effect on the Discussion page with regard to the omission of Prime Minister Fayyad's formal condemnation and with regard to the (spurious, in my view) attribution of responsibility to the Fatah party. The Jerusalem Post article that was the source for the first paragraph of the Palestinian reaction did include information to the effect that Fayyad condemned the massacre, but the editor(s) elected not to include it in the article. It also explained that Fatah did not directly claim responsibility for the massacre but rather that a faction of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade did – but this comment too went unaddressed.
However, I would not be as hasty as User:Gatoclass in concluding that User:Jalapenos do exist's edits deliberately left out information. One must keep in mind the fact that this was a clear case of aggressor and victim. Oftentimes that relationship is not so sharply defined in the ongoing cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians but, given the circumstances, in this case it is only natural to frame it in those terms. Furthermore, specifically with regard to the Fatah point, User:Jalapenos do exist may simply not have been informed enough as an editor on the dynamics of the Palestinian's quasi-political/quasi-paramilitary leadership structures. That is to say, he may candidly have been unaware of the distinction between Fatah and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.
I'm not one to draw clear conclusions one way or the other, but these observations are what I have to contribute to the discussion for the benefit of those that will ultimately need to draw them.—Biosketch (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Jalapenos do exist
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.