Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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::*My gut says the topic isn't the problem, nor related to the problem. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 18:59, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
::*My gut says the topic isn't the problem, nor related to the problem. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 18:59, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
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::*To add: while we may be at AE, as admin we are not bound to only look through the lens of Arbitration Enforcement and can view the bigger picture. These problems aren't because the articles are Arb restricted, and in fact, the restrictions are incidental to the disruption. I don't think this is a hopeless case but I think the problem is bigger than interaction or topic bans can fix. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but until then, my gut (again) is telling me that a 6 month block is the right solution. Perhaps it is a lack of imagination on my part, but I don't see how anything short of an extended, clean break is going to solve the problem and have the potential to prevent disruption in the future. This is a big step but I think blocks should have come earlier and didn't, and too many good faith editors have paid the price. I would accept more or less but feel that 6 months is the right length. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 22:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
::*To add: while we may be at AE, as admin we are not bound to only look through the lens of Arbitration Enforcement and can view the bigger picture. These problems aren't because the articles are Arb restricted, and in fact, the restrictions are incidental to the disruption. I don't think this is a hopeless case but I think the problem is bigger than interaction or topic bans can fix. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but until then, my gut (again) is telling me that a 6 month block is the right solution. Perhaps it is a lack of imagination on my part, but I don't see how anything short of an extended, clean break is going to solve the problem and have the potential to prevent disruption in the future. This is a big step but I think blocks should have come earlier and didn't, and too many good faith editors have paid the price. I would accept more or less but feel that 6 months is the right length. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 22:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:::* I agree with the six month block. I briefly entertained the notion of a topic ban but I don't think that is likely to prevent further disruption. --[[User:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">'''Laser brain'''</font>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]] 23:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:12, 19 December 2016
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Abbatai
No sanctions, but a logged warning to both: "Abbatai and Etienne Dolet are both admonished and warned against battleground behaviour and failure to edit neutrally. Future examples of these behaviours are likely to result in a topic ban." EdJohnston (talk) 15:14, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Abbatai
This is one of the shortest reports I've filed simply because the POV is self-evident and the user's history is so disruptive that it just had to be reported. Abbatai removes the word 'Nazi' in this edit when it comes to Azeris, but adds it in the lead of an Armenian article a few minutes later. A bit of a history lesson here: the Armenische Legion and the Aserbaidschanische Legion were both foreign units of the Wehrmacht. Armenians (like Dro) and Azeris all fought alongside the German Army during those days. However, according to Abbatai, the Azeris should not be designated Nazis, but the Armenians should. It can't get any clearer POV pushing than that. Given this user's disruptive POV pushing history, there should be serious consideration as to whether he should be topic-banned once more.
Discussion concerning AbbataiStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AbbataiIn my both edits mentioned above the intention was to give clearer and more precise additional information about certain issues here It is more appropriate to put "Azeri SS Volunteer Formations" instead of a broad description like "Nazi Azeri troops". And this edit as well clearly done to give sourced information to avoid any confusion since Drastamat Kanayan led another Armenian Legion during WW1.--Abbatai 12:53, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesdiff #1. Including info about the legion of the Wehrmacht seems be appropriate. However, trying to "over-explain" it, i.e. saying "Wehrmacht, the armed forces of the Nazi Germany" was excessive and should be fixed. But this looks to me as a minor content dispute. diff #2. Telling "SS Volunteer Formations" means basically the same as "Nazi troops", but more precise. Therefore, I think that was actually an improvement by Abbatai. I do not see any reason for sanctions based on these two diffs. My very best wishes (talk) 04:46, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SagecandorThe edits [6] and [7] -- when contrasted with each other as noted by the original poster -- is definitely problematic. The topic ban by Coffee was only back in May 2016. Then a block [8], then an extension of the topic ban [9]. Last topic ban was 6 months, suggest one year. Sagecandor (talk) 11:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldWhen they taken together (as they should be, given the subject similarity and that there was only a short time period between each edit) the editing aim looks dubious. The first chronologically [10] was, by itself, innocuous, indeed reasonable - it simply removed a pipe and revealed the name of the actual article. But the second [11] does not remove the pipe, it retains it and then overeggs it. There are other recent diffs suggesting pov editing - here is a removal of content mentioning the existence of Armenians living in the Igdir valley before its annexation by Turkey, plus content mentioning that Kurds are the current majority population: [12]. The Kurdish majority vs Azeri majority claims seems to be an ongoing edit war. Abbatai has jumped in to continue it - which is strange, given that Abbatai in the talk page appears to be agreeing that the source being advocated for the Azeri majority claim is not rs. The deleted Armenia-related content has been done under the guise of agreeing with those who are disputing the Kurdish majority claim. The last talk page discussion regarding the region's former Armenian population was back in 2007 - if there is an issue with what exactly the Russian population statistics are referring to (the city or the region) and where in the article it should be mentioned then that should be addressed in the talk page and not be used as an excuse to blank mention of Igdir's Armenian past. Here is another troubling edit [13] - the deletion of Kemalist-related material from 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt. The edit summary justification "there is not even one single source claiming Kemalists were behind coup attempt" misrepresents even the article's own content, which from its start has had sourced content explaining that the coup group's name, Peace at Home Council, was derived from Kemal Atatürk's saying 'Peace at Home, Peace in the World', and that choice of name together with their statement either indicated actual Kemalist involvement or a misdirection attempt to imply Kemalist involvement. The edit mentioned by ED that initiated Abbatai's recent block for topic ban violation also involved pov editing - again it was the deletion of a mention of Armenians - [14]. Adding Urartu was a valid addition to have made, but not as an excuse to delete the equally valid mention of Armenians. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by AtheneanWhile the number of diffs here is small, the issue is one quality rather than quantity. The Igdir diff [15] is particularly problematic. He removes perfectly well-sourced material simply because he doesn't like it (Abbatai is somewhat obsessed with minorities in Turkey), with a misleading edit summary. In my book it doesn't get any worse than that (except edit-warring over it). Then he files a frivolous, retaliatory AE report against EtienneDolet, clear evidence of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Most importantly, Abbatai has already been topic banned, for exactly this kind of behavior. This editor is clearly WP:NOTHERE. He was topic banned, then given another chance, and now he is engaging in exactly the same behavior that got him topic banned in the first place. Enough. Athenean (talk) 04:34, 14 December 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Abbatai
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EtienneDolet
No sanctions but a logged warning to both: "Abbatai and Etienne Dolet are both admonished and warned against battleground behaviour and failure to edit neutrally. Future examples of these behaviours are likely to result in a topic ban." EdJohnston (talk) 15:21, 19 December 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning EtienneDolet
S/he has been varned several times by different editors.
The user is aware of the discretionary sanctions as S/he is currently reports any user S/he disagree.
EtienneDolet has long history of deliberately POV-pushing and anti-Azeri sentiment. Lastly in the article Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II changed the wording "Azeri SS Volunteer Formations" to a very vague and problematic one "Nazi Azeri troops". On the other hand s/he removes sourced information from one of the Armenian collaborators with Nazi Germany about his leading of the Armenian Legion a military unit of Nazi Germany. What's more on December 1 2016 EtienneDolet added misleading information to Iğdır Province about the demoraphy of the article which is completely irrelevant to province. EtienneDolet included the Russian Empire Census in 1897 Iğdır to the article. However, Iğdır became province in 1992 and its boundaries changed quite a lot compared to the times it was under Russian rule. Therefore, Iğdır Province has nothing to do with Russian Population Census on Iğdır City from 1897. The edit reverted by a user and another user warned EtienneDolet about the province in his/her talk but s/he hasn't engaged any collaboration and reverted the page once again. Although three editors disagree with him/her EtienneDolet ignores incorrectness of the edit just to insert Armenian Population wherever s/he can. The editor interestingly adds Armenian name to the Turkish city of Erzurum however removes Turkish language etymology from Armenian capital Yerevan on the same day. Similarly removes the sourced information about contest of origin from the article Lavash.
References
Providing all evidences above and regarding the disruptive behaviour of EtienneDolet a topic ban on Armenia related topics would be helpful to deal with any further disruption. And of course for the user to reconsider his/her structural WP violating editorial pattern. Thanks--Abbatai 22:42, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning EtienneDoletStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by EtienneDolet@Dennis Brown: my goodness Dennis, what white-washing are you talking about? Can you please be more specific and refrain from drawing to conclusions so early? I'm sure you realize your commentary as an admin has influence in what users or admins think about this case. So I'd suggest you look into it more, then comment. So are you talking about my revert at Yerevan? If so, let me break it to you: it wasn't "white-washing". In fact, I reverted POV-pushing WP:SYNTH material. The source, a Turkish etymological dictionary published by the Turkish Language Association, provides absolutely no linkage whatsoever to show that the word Yerevan comes from Revan. To be more clear: there's NOTHING about Yerevan in the source. Beshogur went so far as to put an etymological entry of the word Revan in the article Yerevan under his own wild presumption that the word Yerevan probably comes from the Persian/Turkic word Revan because...it sounds similar? Hell, I don't know. But what I do know is that what Beshogur did was a textbook SYNTH and POV-pushing edit to somehow demonstrate that Yerevan, the capital of Armenia, is a Turkic/Persian city. But to say that I'm the one white-washing things here is very very misleading. My edits at Erzurum are also in line with how the article was since at least 2008 ([48]). I don't understand why I'm being scrutinized when Beshogur removed the Armenian name of Erzurum at least 6 freaking times in that article in the past month or so! And it's not as if he's removing the Creole name of the city, he's removing its Armenian transliteration. A language associated with a people who lived in that town long before the Turks did and whose tragic end to their existence in that city in 1915 shouldn't merit its removal under WP:NCGN standards. The stuff at Iğdır Province can be easily dealt with at the talk page. I have yet to have heard Abbatai raise these concerns regarding Province/City demographic statistics. Not even his sole talk page comment raises that issue. The first time he raises that issue is at this very moment at this very thread. If he feels that adding stuff about the Armenian population in Iğdır is problematic, let him express his concerns at the talk page first, rather than use that as ammunition to have his "opponents" banned when the time is right. In fact, Abbatai's revert deserves much more scrutiny. He removes reliably sourced information about the Kurds of that town, effectively reducing the Kurds, who represent the majority of the population in that province, to mere non-existence. And the source he uses is nothing but electoral results from the last Turkish election. And he knows that. But the almost laughable diffs are the ones of Drastamat Kanayan and Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II. Here, Abbatai is actually implying that his own edits are disruptive. After all, as I laid out in my report against him just above, it was Abbatai who removed the word 'Nazi' in this edit when it comes to Azeris, but adds it in the lead of an Armenian article a few minutes later. And those two edits, when juxtaposed, have been considered disruptive in his own report by at least 3 admins. So the baffling part about Abbatai's accusation here is that my edits are disruptive when, put under his own logic, is nothing but the opposite of his. I remove the word Nazi for Dro and add it back to the Azeri which should make it POV, but when he places Nazi for Dro and removes it for Azeris, it's not. That's hypocrisy at its finest and merits no praise at all. This is a retaliatory report and merits a boomerang. Abbatai's presentation of my reverts at Kanayan and WWII collaboration proves, in a rather obvious sense, that he actually believes that such an editing pattern is disruptive, but only when it's flipped and against his POV. Abbatai has removed information about Armenians and Kurds whose population was (in the case of the Armenians) and still is (in the case of the Kurds) a majority. And my goodness, this is straight off of a fresh six month topic ban. I must say, Abbatai's pretty bold. A bit too bold. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:19, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesSo, Abbatai made this edit. That was arguably an improvement to a more precise title, but something really really minor. In response, ED reverted [49]. That was arguably not an improvement, but emphasizing something everyone already knows (SS were Nazi, but wait a minute, they also happened to be Azeri!). This is not good, but hardly a serious reason for sanctions. What is actually problematic? The fact that ED brought his content opponent (Abbatai) to AE for making this very innocent edit (diff #2 in his request just above), obviously to gain an upper hand in a content dispute. And of course Abbatai brought precisely the same request about ED. The real problem is WP:BATTLE, and it was started by ED by bringing this to AE. My very best wishes (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by AtheneanOk, first of all, this is clearly a retaliatory request by Abbatai, since EtienneDolet reported him earlier (see above). This in itself is evidence of battleground behavior and merits a WP:BOOMERANG. Second, I very strongly suspect Abbatai is not the author of this report. Abbatai's English is best described as atrocious ("and accuse me every means possible" "I believe article is heavily biased from name to not exclusion of 1914 revolt." [51]). He rarely can string more than 5-6 words in a sentence. Yet here we have an report in flawless English, with long, elaborate sentences. Clearly Abbatai is not capable of this level of English. There is foul play here. But most importantly, to suggest any sort of equivalency between ED and Abbatai, as Peacemaker is doing, is incredibly ill-informed. ED is an incredibly valuable contributor, who has created an immense amount of content (262 articles created, and counting), with a spotless record. By contrast Abbatai is nothing more than an obsessive Turkish nationalist-fascist SPA who contributes nothing but POV-pushing and disruption: From attempting to whitewash Kemalist involvement in the 2016 coup attempt [52] [53] (notice how he lies about "moving" the content - he didn't "move" it, he deleted it), and Ergenekon affair [54], to the typical Turkish xenophobic removal of any mention of minorities [55] (again notice the misleading edit summary), to petty trolling of Armenian users [56] [57] (note the bad English in the edit summary), it's all very familiar. He has a long block log [58] and has already been topic banned from this area, for exactly this type of battleground behavior. Abbatai contributes nothing to the topic area, and is a textbook example of a minority-baiting, Turkish nationalist POV-pusher with a severe case of WP:BATTLE mentality who is clealy WP:NOTHERE. I am amazed he isn't topic banned yet. This frivolous retaliatory report should be the final straw. Athenean (talk) 04:23, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldThis is just a tit-for-tat response by Abbatai for the case raised against him. The barrel scrapings of diffs alleging misdeeds reveal nothing of the sort. For example, "adding Armenian population data from 1897 Russian census to a province has history back only to 1992" - then why is Abbatai happy to allow population statistics from the 1920s, 1930s, 1950s, etc., to remain in the article? There is nothing wrong in removing [67] an unjustified pov tag (this [68] is NOT a proper tag justification); this [69] is sourced content and was added as a result of talk page discussions, this [70] restored alternative names that had been deleted without justification and deleted a reference that was actually not a reference for the tagged for sources content; this [71] removes an unsourced category assertion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer MarekCan someone point me to ONE - just one, single, uno, 1 - drama board thread where EtienneDolet, Athenean and Tiptoethroughtheminefield don't all show up simultaneously in tandem and proceed to attack whoever is their target d'jour? Really, just one, because I cannot recall a single case even though I've been subject to their attention multiple times. And they are very very frequent visitors to WP:AE. And of course they do the same on articles. Which is why I showed up here as I was just thinking about filing yet another AE request against ED for BLP violations - saying a BLP subject is "loosing it" because they are "too old" [74] - but then I saw this was already up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC) So I guess the answer is "no, I can't come up with even one drama board discussion where the three of us didn't all jump in simultaneously".Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) It's the "same insinuation" (I didn't think I was insinuating anything - I said plainly, the three of you collude in these discussions and tag team on articles) because what the three of you are doing is so transparent that a two year old could see it. So the fact that more than one person noticed (and frankly I have no idea who Abatai is) is not really some big mystery or "coincidence". Like I said, there isn't a single drama board discussion where the three of you don't show up together to have each other's backs and attacks each other's opponents. Any article where a content dispute develops, it's the same thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:25, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Result concerning EtienneDolet
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Tlroche
Tlroche (talk · contribs) is banned indefinitely from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed across all namespaces. SashiRolls (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting on AE requests to which they are not a party. T. Canens (talk) 21:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Tlroche
Analysis by SashiRolls (talk · contribs) is wrong. Please see this explanation by Neutrality at [81], warning the user in question about misuse of word "slander". Sagecandor (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TlrocheStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MrXThis out of control editor has also been reported to WP:ANEW.This editor needs to be blocked, topic banned, or both. They are some sort of mission to promote Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, and I'm guessing they have a COI. They are brazenly ignoring multiple talk page warnings, edit summaries reverting their edits, article talk page discussion, and the prominent edit notice. There is no excuse for this type of behavior. Their reaction to a polite, non-template message with diffs from an admin asking them to be more careful: "false neutrality removed". I wonder if this time we could actually use AE as it's intended and have an admin take the appropriate action to stop the blatant POV pushing, edit warring, and incivility. AE does not require consensus among admins, or lengthy discussion. - MrX 17:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by SashiRollsThe merit of this case (or lack thereof) is best demonstrated by diff 4 where Sagecandor reproaches the accused (Tlroche) for saying they (Sagecandor) made a slanderous accusation. Careful analysis of the diffs provided by the accused show the accused to be right, Tlroche merely added a signature where Sagecandor forgot to sign. This case should not be decided without looking more carefully into the accuser's history, especially this case at ANI and this talk page deletion which together seem to indicate a strong aversion to transparency. (as in the bogus diff 4 & 5 above). SashiRolls (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Some characteristic diffs showing that Sagecandor is not at all averse to making personal attacks or denouncing people without transparency. (I'm not the only one who he's denounced without pinging -- more diffs available if necessary):
Knowing the terrain, I understand why Tlroche could become frustrated as many editors have on those pages where Sagecandor is most active. Cf. Jimbo Wales#Systematic problems at US-Russia articles, where nearly every page mentioned refers to this editor. (As has also been a recent trend on AE, if you look back through the recent bans & blocks. We mustn't forget [91] in addition to those SC mentions (at AE)... there is method to this, if the AE administrators are willing to take the time to look into it, it may save embarrassment later. ) SashiRolls (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer MarekThis is more in regards to SashiRolls' comments here. The relevant policies are WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:BATTLEGROUND. There's no reason for them to show up here and based on some flimsy excuse use this as a forum to attack another editor whom they happen to dislike.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by NeutralityI agree with MrX and Sagecandor. Particularly concerning re: Tlroche is his/her comment here: "I see no reason to seek approval from your rightwing cabal. ... I will continue to add valuable content as I see fit." Tlroche basically has expressed an open disdain for consensus. As to SashiRolls, I agree with Volunteer Marek and would merely note that this is part of a pattern of behavior. Neutralitytalk 19:12, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by TimothyjosephwoodIf you don't count the page and talk they're TBANNED from, this is Sashi's sixth most edited page on Wikipedia. They're off topic comments here have only resulted in more off topic comments (like this one). Support restricting AE comments on requests they are not a party to. Drama central is that way. TimothyJosephWood 15:22, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Tlroche
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The Rambling Man
Re-instating previous close, no further action is forthcoming from this forum at this time. Per Floquenbeam's previous closing statement: "Considering all the blocks, unblocks, AN threads, ANI threads, AE reports, and retirements in the last few days, it looks like everyone is finally exhausted from stabbing each other in the eye with forks. Well, that's not true, I think there are still a few unstabbed eyeballs and a few people with forks, but the community in general has probably had enough. Jauerback says "let it go", and that seems like excellent advice for a week ago, and pretty good advice now."
Beeblebrox (talk) 21:41, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning The Rambling Man
See below
In no less than 24 hours from the closure of the previous AE filing, it appears that TRM has continued to engage in inappropriate behavior. He has made personal attacks towards myself, including: not to mention his utter abject recalcitrance in redacting his accusations of lying ... To err is human, to completely reject any responsibility for false accusations is rogue admin, Mike will just use IRC and find an Arbcom/Mike-sympathetic admin to do the dirty work behind the scenes, Get him to write an error-free DYK, that would be a miracle. It is Christmas after all., and equating my warning and block to lynching and character assassination. TRM's uncivil behavior has extended to DYK when another editor asked him a question and he responded in a belittling fashion: I'm gonna take a punt here: PREVENTING ERRORS FROM HITTING THE MAIN PAGE?. It was followed up with: Impressive that you found such an appropriate yet shit article. You must have shares. Usual "belittling" caveat applies, although in your case, I couldn't give one, two or three fucks! Just kidding, obv!!!!!!!!! and No-one gives a fuck about the main page any more Martin. You know that. Finally, TRM has made insults towards some of the arbitration committee candidates: Hilarious, thanks. That someone who doesn't really edit Wikipedia and didn't answer the questions posed didn't come last, sums it all up perfectly! and Spectacular result. No wonder we trust Arbcom to understand what we do day-to-day around here! I am asking that you take a look at TRM's behavior and action it as appropriate. Mike V • Talk 15:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning The Rambling ManStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Rambling ManStellar waste of time, most diffs out of context or actually just statements of fact. Am on the road so can't respond for some time but hoping that we don't have another Mike V trigger finger block before I get a chance to respond. Mike V has still failed to respond to my request for him to redact the two accusations of lying, by the way. Perhaps we could ping the other people in those talk situations to see how "belittled" and/or insulted they felt! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by FramAppropriate action would be a block of Mike V. for baiting. Really, it seems as if everyone by now has said to you that the original warning yu gaev which started all this was wrong. Your defense has been (paraphrased, duh): "I am not wrong", "I had no time between handing out that warning and speedily giving a block two weeks later to the same user to attend to this", and "I am not wrong, and I can't hear you". His examples above include things like I'm gonna take a punt here: PREVENTING ERRORS FROM HITTING THE MAIN PAGE?. If he isn't allowed to say something like that any longer, then some people really have become way, WAY too thin skinned. But perhaps it is just an "admin" looking for an excuse to block the editor again who got him ridiculed at AN, ANI, AE, and a slew of user talk pages? Mike V., you are only making a fool of yourself. Please boomerang close this. Fram (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC) @Ritchie333: thanks, but I hope someone else will do the honour. I would be accused of being involved, being wikifriends with you (I have an archived ANI discussion from this year to prove them wrong though :-D ), and so on. Probably by the same people that claimed that MikeV wan't involved because they had no article conflict with TRM. Fram (talk) 15:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by Ritchie333Agree with the above. Fram, if you wish to block Mike V for stirring up trouble and skirting around a recently placed community ban, you have my support. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:20, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by 331dotAgree with the above as well. It would be wonderful if we could move on from this war against TRM. I'd probably be frustrated too and say things I'd regret if I were him. I don't condone everything he has said, but it is concerning to me that criticism of an administrator's actions is considered a 'personal attack' by that person. 331dot (talk) 15:21, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by Davey2010Agree with everyone above - Continuing this is waste of time and right now if anyone deserves blocking it's Mike!, I suggest this gets speedy closed and I would also suggest Mike moves on!. –Davey2010Talk 15:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by JauerbackLet it go. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 16:03, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by IvanvectorIt would probably be best for everyone if everyone just steps away from this dispute for a bit. However, I would ask that someone please undo Mike V's indefinite full protection of his own talk page ([92]), that is inappropriate. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:33, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SagecandorProbably best for all involved to have a cup of tea at this point. I'm reminded of the phrase flogging a dead horse. Sagecandor (talk) 16:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by EEng@The Wordsmith: when you say "blocking a Functionary is unprecedented", I think what you mean is that it would be unprecedented to block a functionary and leave him a functionary. This episode has left in tatters Mike V's fitness to perform even the public functions of an admin; that he be allowed behind-the-scenes functions such as CU, oversight, and supervising edit filters and Arbcom elections is now, IMO, beyond the pale. He not only lacks judgment, but refuses to accept that he's seriously mistaken when literally dozens of editors (including admins) tell him so directly. How can we trust him with hidden roles that support the very fabric of the community? Even if he avoids desysopping (and I hope that will be given serious consideration given his latest foray into wasting everyone's time) I submit he should be immediately stripped of all roles other than admin. I think it's interesting that Mike V's response to being rebuked as an admin is to simply take his ball and go home, instead of returning to improving the encyclopedia in other ways – except of course he has no experience doing that. That confirms my longstanding impression that he sees his role here not as to help in building an encyclopedia, but rather as playing enforcer. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. EEng 18:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by TarageRemove MikeV's bit. This temper tantrum is unbecoming of an administrator and frankly, continuing to let him behave this way only further proves the massive issues with the current administrative staff. --Tarage (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved SoftlavenderAs far as I can tell, I agree with some folks above who say that everyone simply needs to step away at this point. Apparently neither party has acted optimally. The moon is full and we're all going off the rails. Let's calm down for a bit. TRM is understandably frustrated that he has been desysopped and is unable to use his tools to fix the main page -- the accuracy of which he cares about passionately, more than anyone else, and it is a very good thing that he does care passionately about it. The main page would probably be a mess without him. His frustration has come out in verbiage -- the style of which isn't going to change completely overnight, nor should we expect it to, given that he can't fix the things he could so easily fix before. (All of that said, maybe TRM could use a short break from the mainpage, just to clear his mind. Just thinking aloud here.) Mike V. has apparently been acting autocratically and vengefully and without consequences. I think he needs to back way off or an RFAR may be the next stop. To avoid all of these consequences, can we please all just drop it and cut everyone a little slack for the time being? Softlavender (talk) 19:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My KenIf the call to block Mike V is heeded here, it seems extremely likely that Mike V's response would be to go to ArbCom. Since desysopping appears to be the actual desired result of many commenting here, then the case would have to go to ArbCom, since they're the only ones that can do that. Therefore, I suggest that this case be closed (for whatever reason) and someone (TRM, Fram, Ritchie, whoever) file a desysop case with ArbCom, since that's the only place where it can be properly ajudicated. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning The Rambling Man
So... numerous people call for sanctions against an administrator, including other administrators, and the result is "let's just stop talking about this"? Are you kidding me? Are you forgetting who brought this here in the first place? --Tarage (talk) 22:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
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SashiRolls
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning SashiRolls
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Sagecandor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:55, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- SashiRolls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_.281932_cutoff.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Pattern of engaging in personal attacks, WP:Casting aspersions, ad hominem, and now, (self-admitted) WP:WIKIHOUNDING. [93]
- 21:36, 16 December 2016 indefinitely prohibited from commenting in AE requests to which you are not a party by Timotheus Canens, after using WP:AE to engage in ad hominem by WP:Casting aspersions. That was per behavior in this AE discussion, and multiple previous ones at the WP:AE board.
- 23:38, 18 December 2016 I recently expanded the article, And you are lynching Negroes, taking it from State before: [94]. State after: [95].
- SashiRolls shows up, never having edited the talk page before, to complain about the expansion work on the page, and to engage in ad hominem, as per past behavior by user. Comments at Is there not a bit of "today" politics motivating this nomination, Sagecandor.
- 23:44, 18 December 2016 User edits own post, to highlight even more the ad hominem nature of the post at I guess the question is "Why?".
- 23:52, 18 December 2016 User self-admits to WP:WIKIHOUNDING, with comment,
Yes, I am keeping an eye on you from afar
[96] - 00:05, 19 December 2016 - After pointing out this is WP:WIKIHOUNDING, user instead responds with snarky comment at [97].
- Pattern of same behavior with multiple editors
- 01:30, 8 August 2016 Warned by Neutrality for form of personal attack, specifically "casting aspersions." See also Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, Wikipedia:Civility. Please refrain from making these kinds of (baseless) comments.
- 02:36, 28 October 2016 Questioned by Drmies for casting aspersions at WP:AN against NuclearWarfare -- after previous topic ban days before implemented by NuclearWarfare [98]. And again one week later [99].
- 22:16, 7 November 2016 Neutrality points out user is casting aspersions against Neutrality and bringing up their name repeatedly in unrelated posts.
"SashiRolls: I've basically tried to avoid interacting with you, given your past conduct, but you continue to draw my name into your constantly grievance-laden posts. The fact that you bear these incredible grudges and follow editors around is extremely off-putting."
[100]. - 03:52, 28 November 2016 Warned by Jytdog for WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- at the WP:AE board.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 19:28, 3 September 2016 Topic ban from politics related topic on a living person by NuclearWarfare.
- 21:36, 16 December 2016 indefinitely prohibited from commenting in AE requests to which you are not a party by Timotheus Canens, after using WP:AE to engage in ad hominem by WP:Casting aspersions.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- 12:59, 30 August 2016 Sanctions notice about American Politics 2, by MrX.
- 16:08, 6 November 2016 Sanctions notice about American Politics 2, by Doug Weller.
- 19:38, 14 December 2016 Reminder by Jytdog about American Politics 2. Specifically by engaging in personal attacks through use of ad hominem.
- 21:36, 16 December 2016 indefinitely prohibited from commenting in AE requests to which you are not a party by Timotheus Canens, after using WP:AE to engage in ad hominem by WP:Casting aspersions.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- TL;DR - seems to be exact same pattern of behavior as user was very recently topic banned for (just two days ago) [101], just continuing the behavior now on pages other than here at WP:AE itself, and self-admits to it: [102]. Sagecandor (talk) 01:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- User has indeed wasted admins time at AE, so much so that they were banned from AE only two days ago. [103]. Sagecandor (talk) 01:46, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood:Yes, user self-admits to WP:WIKIHOUNDING, with comment, [104]. Ongoing problem with WP:Casting aspersions and ad hominem, as described, above. Sagecandor (talk) 03:23, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- Suggested remedies: (1) Warning regarding pattern of engaging in personal attacks, WP:Casting aspersions, ad hominem, and now, (self-admitted) WP:WIKIHOUNDING [105] -- and (2) Interaction ban. Sagecandor (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Laser brain:Thank you very much for your helpful advice. I've cleaned up the post. [106]. Sagecandor (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood:The user was asked to stop on their user talk page. The user refused to stop, and instead replied with a snarky comment [107]. I think a Warning against WP:NPA, WP:ASPERSIONS, and ad hominem is appropriate here, and an Interaction ban. Sagecandor (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood:There is a direct pattern of behavior from receiving a topic ban from NuclearWarfare [108], and then immediately after hounding the admin that gave them the sanction as noted by Drmies at [109] and [110]. Neutrality had been pushed to the breaking point to finally say:
"SashiRolls: I've basically tried to avoid interacting with you, given your past conduct, but you continue to draw my name into your constantly grievance-laden posts. The fact that you bear these incredible grudges and follow editors around is extremely off-putting."
[111]. Do you see the pattern here with multiple admins and users unrelated to myself ? Sagecandor (talk) 17:46, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- 00:56, 19 December 2016 Notification given. Sagecandor (talk) 00:56, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SashiRolls
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by SashiRolls
This is nonsense. Am leaving for Christmas thoroughly disappointed. Will not return before the 27th. I still have never wasted admins time taking anyone to AE. Could you please limit yourself to 500 words and 20 diffs, for my return? Thanks. SashiRolls (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
A few hours less sleep never hurt anyone, right?.... z.z.z.z.
Recent
- 1-2 general assertions: I gave up counting the variations on "cast aspersions", "ad hominem", and WikiHounding in your statement at well over a dozen. (thou dost protest too much?)
- 3-4. The idea behind asking me not to participate in other people's cases when you bring cases against them, I think, was to minimize the drama at AE, not to increase it by dragging me here on pretty clearly trumped up charges. You have tried to get me blocked or banned by leaving messages on three admins ([112], [113],[114]) talk pages, and have engaged in personal attacks against me on the NPOV notice board (calling me a "Russian propaganda user") No courtesy ping in any of the four cases. You have been involved in more than a half dozen AE cases (at least four of which you yourself have brought here) in your four week long Wikipedia career. You've also put together a GA nomination, nominated pages for deletion, and managed to get one of the main pages you worked on ("fake news website") become the subject of frustration on Jimbo's page among others (and as usual, no, I didn't start the discussion). You systematically delete questions or notifications you don't like from your talk page, even questions as simple as "Have you ever edited Wikipedia before?", but also questions and warnings from rather a lot of users.
- 5-10 a. the two comments I made on the page Sagecandor nominated for GA. Are you sure that these two paragraphs warrant so much finger pointing as in 1-2 above?
- 5-10b. I had edited pages today on the Robert Charles riots (with its story of the Green Turtles), the New Orleans riot of 1866, rereading bits of Black Reconstruction (WEBDubois) to see how I could work on various Reconstruction pages? As such, seeing the open RfC for "and you are lynching Negroes?" I went to have a look. This is why I discovered your work Sagecandor (which those who read the diff in the previous section know I said was "serious" work. I made some friendly and helpful content suggestions (one of which was directly in line with previous suggestions on the talk page)).
Old
- 1-5 represent old stuff for which I am doing my time and respecting my sentence. I can not talk about them because I am topic banned.
- 6-7. See my talk page for full disclosure on B'rer Frog's one edit.
- 8-10. Please see the full context. Neither Doug Weller, nor Drmies felt that my behavior warranted a sanction. I did not cast aspersions on Nuclear Warfare. I said I was keeping quiet about what I was meant to keep quiet about (as a result of a topic ban).
- 11. Jytdog made a mistake, as he admitted both on AE and on my talk page. I was not carrying any dispute from the Singapore page to AE, I was just pointing out his abrupt manner of stating his opinion ("putrid" I think was his word...). Since he deleted this comment immediately after he made it, I wonder how you know about it, and what you – yourself – know about wikihounding.
- 12. seriously? who is accusing whom of personal attacks?
- 13. Please see 3-4 in "Today's stuff"
I would request that Sagecandor go home and spend the holidays with loved ones and stop bringing people to AE. I do not even necessarily want Santa to bring him a boomerang. Once again, I have never brought anyone to AE, because I seek to edit harmoniously, following the rules That can even be reliably sourced to the News on Wikipeida (WMF blog) :) (I was interviewed because of my (very modest) work on DAPL / DAPL protests. (I certainly do not deserve much credit at all for those articles though; I was just the only one who answered the journalist's questions, I guess.)
I suppose that I am making a mistake not pinging anyone or mentioning anyone to get them to run over and seek vengeance for a previous block as Snoogansnoogans has done below. But I'm going to just enjoy my holidays with my family, OK? yep, that's another article I'm glad to have influenced. SashiRolls (talk) 03:43, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Snooganssnoogans
This is part of SashiRolls' modus operandi. The user turns every page he/she edits on into a battleground (usually because SashiRolls adds ridiculous, charged content from poor sources, reverts quality content from reliable sources, and then can't discuss things in a reasonable manner), and proceeds to harass the users that he/she disagrees with. As can be seen from my talk page, SashiRolls was obsessed with me from this summer to mid-November, because the user disagreed with my edits on the Jill Stein page (a page that the user was later banned from). The obsession turned into harassment in late October, with the user following me around, reverting my edits for ridiculous reasons on pages of no previous interest to SashiRolls[115], mentioning me in 17 different edits over a three-week span, repeatedly editing my talk page with nonsense.[116] SashiRolls was then told by some admin in no unclear terms to stop following me around and harassing me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Timothyjosephwood
Can we spend a few days not on AE? Is there really a current disruption that needs to be addressed? TimothyJosephWood 03:21, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- (With a fresh cup of coffee and a slightly better attitude) I'm not an AE expert, and don't want to become one, but I'm not sure this is really the best venue for this, since I'm not entirely sure "sod off" (which Sashi should seriously consider doing with regard to Sage) is normally within the purview of AE. But generally, it seems a lot like the better option here would have been to grab the most uninvolved person available, or your friendly neighborhood admin, and let them apply a generous helping of Template:Collapse, probably a few links like WP:NOTFORUM, and maybe even collaborate a bit to finally write WP:SODOFF.
- ...And looking around, it seems someone has already beaten me to it.
- At any rate, most issues on Wikipedia can actually be resolved without resorting to AE or ANI, and these really should only be used as a last resort, not a first, second, or even third step. TimothyJosephWood 14:48, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I suppose there's no harm in an IBAN. But soon we're going to have to start keeping a matrix of things Sashi can and cannot edit. TimothyJosephWood 17:39, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just going to take this to your talk because this is probably getting too conversational for the venue. TimothyJosephWood 18:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
This dispute is indeed ripe for AE, and maybe well-past its spoilage date. I've been in the previous AEs for SashiRolls, and Snooganssnoogans is correct that this is the typical pattern. I agree strongly with what Dennis Brown says below, having actually been in such editing situations. We are at the end of the WP:ROPE. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:16, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning SashiRolls
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Sagecandor: Please trim this filing to be within the guidelines for this page. Your diffs should be limited to explicit, recent examples of what you are requesting sanctions for. Most of your links under "relevant sanctions" aren't sanctions at all, etc. Please clean up this mess before it will even be considered. --Laser brain (talk) 12:46, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I've read through the primary diffs provided, and understand why so many were needed. While each diff taken alone isn't reason for action, the fact that there are so many that seem to be singularly focused on causing grief to others is a concern. For lack of a better term, this is what we call "jackassery". Frankly, I wouldn't want to work near Sashi and I wonder how many people have been run off due to their antics. The provided diffs are only from a short period of time, a snapshot. After handling other cases with Sashi jumping in, I have seen first hand how they can inject themselves where their input is neither helpful nor wanted. Sashi being an editor here seem to clearly be a net-negative for Wikipedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:01, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I agree, the pattern is disturbing and action is needed. The action that triggered this filing (showing up unbidden at an article talk page to question an editor's motives for working on an article? really?) is troubling enough, but it's definitely part of a larger track record of disruptive behavior. I'm leaning toward a topic ban on AP2, but I'm wondering if that casts a wide enough net to stop the disruption. --Laser brain (talk) 18:19, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- My gut says the topic isn't the problem, nor related to the problem. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:59, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- To add: while we may be at AE, as admin we are not bound to only look through the lens of Arbitration Enforcement and can view the bigger picture. These problems aren't because the articles are Arb restricted, and in fact, the restrictions are incidental to the disruption. I don't think this is a hopeless case but I think the problem is bigger than interaction or topic bans can fix. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but until then, my gut (again) is telling me that a 6 month block is the right solution. Perhaps it is a lack of imagination on my part, but I don't see how anything short of an extended, clean break is going to solve the problem and have the potential to prevent disruption in the future. This is a big step but I think blocks should have come earlier and didn't, and too many good faith editors have paid the price. I would accept more or less but feel that 6 months is the right length. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with the six month block. I briefly entertained the notion of a topic ban but I don't think that is likely to prevent further disruption. --Laser brain (talk) 23:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)