Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.


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Use of international wheelchair symbol

This topic has been discussed in a number of places, notably here, but I'd like to get broad community input on this issue.

The issue concerns the use of the International Symbol of Access (ISA) outside its article. The ISA may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility. However, the symbol is copyrighted and so derivative works are not permitted.

UPDATE: Some derivative works are permitted, see the last bullet point on Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Why we ought to use the ISA —Remember the dot (talk) 05:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Until recently, the ISA was used in places such as Template:Infobox Disney ride to illustrate handicapped accessibility. It has been replaced with a crudely drawn (but freely licensed) alternative,

So, here is the question: Should we permit use of the ISA to illustrate handicapped accessibility in articles and templates? Please continue the discussion in this section, and then indicate your position in the poll below. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused as to why it is in debate. Yes, it isn't a free image, but any concievable adaptation of the encyclopedia by any entity could use it the way we do, because it may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility. Last I checked, it's pretty unambiguous that "This image may be freely used in situations X, Y, and Z" copyrights are allowed. -Amarkov moo! 05:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Poll: Should we permit use of the ISA to illustrate handicapped accessibility in articles and templates?

Yes, permit use in articles and templates to illustrate handicapped accessibility

  1. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Badagnani. This is such a non-issue that it shouldn't even have to be up for discussion. Let's return to creating great content. Badagnani 05:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. [1] gives permission to use the symbol "to promote and publicize accessibility of places, programs and other activities for people with various disabilities" and encourages visitors "to place these symbols next to the relevant information in all publications and media". The fact that the image is copyrighted is irrelevant: there is no such thing in Europe as a copyright-free image, except for those on which copyright has expired. The license granted isn't entirely free, but it's about as close as you get. JulesH 07:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Yes. Here we have a prime example of image-license wikilawyering being bad for the encyclopedia. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Of course yes. Ridiculous copyright hysteria run amok. Jenolen speak it! 08:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Yes. I have worked with people with disabilities in the past, and have found that badly thought-out or stereotyped signs, no matter how well intentioned, can often cause offence, and therefore the most prudent option is to stick to official symbols. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  7. The symbol's copyright is only to protect improper usage. As long as it is being used to denote a handicapped accessible facility or service, we are using it within its guidelines and not violating its copyright. –Crashintome4196 17:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. I believe that it makes sense to slightly modify or clarify our fair use criteria to indicate that a limited number of "official symbols" like the International Symbol of Access are not replaceable and do not require specific rationales for each use. This appears to be in line with what Jimbo implied (see below). --NE2 19:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. It's the symbol for handicapped accessibility, and is freely usable within that context. (You can even profit from it. Look at those handicapped accessible restroom and parking signs companies sell.) The arguments against using it sound like the sort of thing I might say if I was trying to make a WP:POINT against overly strict interpretation of the image use criteria. If this requires a one sentence addition to the fair use policy saying that we can use universal standard symbols for their intended purpose without fear of repercussion, which should be obvious anyway, then so be it. --tjstrf talk 00:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  10. This is very much like Crown Copyright, which provides explicit permission provided the material is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading depiction. The ISA is universally recognised as the symbol for accessibility. Some random vector someone whipped up in Inkscape is not. This is very much a case where we need to interpret our rules in spirit, and not in letter. There is no violation of copyright law here, as any use to designate accessibility is not only fair, but expressly permitted. Chris cheese whine 00:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  11. It appears from the discussion below that this is a technical violation of Wikipedia policy. However, I believe that the policy is intended as a way to ensure that we don't run afoul of copyright law, not as an end in itself. Given our confidence that we are not in fact violating the copyright, and given that there is no reasonable alternative to use of this image, this is an ideal time to ignore skirt the policy and do the right thing. Matchups 01:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Seems like this is a good time to make one of our rare exceptions to the fair-use policy. --Carnildo 07:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  13. An exception should be made in this case. We need to be as disability friendly as we possibly can. This is easily within our abilities to do, so we should do it. The reasons against seem to be that it's against the rules, nothing more. That means the rules are wrong or incomplete. Using a poor alternative is doing a poor job of being disability friendly. - Peregrine Fisher 05:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Although voting is, of course, evil, I think it's important to point out that the Foundation resolution on the subject of nonfree content allows for exceptions "to include identifying protected works such as logos". This is a prime example of the sort of use which should be allowed. Even if the image is technically "unfree", the intent of the copyright holder is clear. If we need to add a sentence to WP:FU to cover this sort of thing, so be it.—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  15. See my comment below. Yes this image can be used, as long as it's usage is properly documented and discussed. We don't need to change WP:FU for just one exception, as long as the rationale of it's usage is properly noted, the image properly categorized, this discussion is referenced, and enough users sign off on it. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 18:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    1. I would like to point out that the scope of the usage of the image should be clearly defined. We cannot use it everywhere, but to say we can't use it ANYWHERE is just stupid --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 09:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  16. This discussion is fully involved at this point. There's clearly the ability to change policy when needed and rational, and people are arguing that we can't change it because... it's not been changed? get over yourselves. -- nae'blis 18:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Yes. The image is free (as a speech) to use for the purpose we want to use it. It is forbidden to use for the other purposes for the damn good reason. It is morally wrong and probably illegal to use something else for the purpose we intend to use it. What elase can I say? Alex Bakharev 03:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Yes. I think some people (below) are being way too anal in insisting on policy for policy's sake. Using this image for this purpose is perfectly legal and moral, and doesn't violate either the letter or the spirit of its license or result in anybody being under any risk of being sued. It's technically "unfree" because there are conditions attached to the image, but they are conditions that no reasonable reuse of Wikipedia content would violate. *Dan T.* 03:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  19. What a fine showcase of ridiculous copyright paranoia.  Grue  10:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Create the appropraite exception document and/or modify the policy to celarly permit this any any simialr logos to be used even though copyrighted, provifed that the license or other legal basis for sue is spelled on on the relevant image page (or its talk page), and provided that any such license is complied with, and provided that the rights granted are broad enough that any plausible non-valdalism use on Wikipedia will be legal. DES (talk) 06:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Since any potential redistributor can use this symbol to illustrate handicapped accessibility, it's really pointless to say that we can't because it has a non-free license. -Amarkov moo! 06:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Yes, allow its use. A minority of Wikipedians are pushing their zeal for libre images to a ridiculous extreme. This is a great example of a good use of non-free image content. Johntex\talk 06:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Yes. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 21:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Yes, obviously. But more importantly, Image:Wheelchair.svg should be deleted as an unauthorized derivative work, unless User:NE2 is willing to argue that Wheelchair.svg is a protected work, such as a work of parody. The current situation is akin to replacing all our images of Mickey Mouse with a user's hand-drawn "Ricky Rat", and then claiming that "Ricky Rat" is in the public domain. That's simply untrue, and the action violates the original work's copyright. --Quuxplusone 09:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Yes, as it is an international standard, which should preempt our copyright concerns, given the fact that we only intend to use the image in an approved context. —Scott5114↗ 16:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Yes, we use a similar symbol to denote Wikipedians in wheelchairs. Why not other areas of Wikipedia?--Ispy1981 07:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Yes, I think it should be alright to use in the template, no I am not going to debate about it, this is just my thought. Next up maybe I'll spark up another huge debate whether or not image:International Symbol for Deafness.svg can be used in the template as well ;) --blm07 22:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Yes. I also think it is ironic that we allegedly cannot use this, as it is a symbol if accessibility, meaning anyone can access. -Indolences 05:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Yes, per everyone but especially TenOfTrades's Q&A, and TSP's argument about the Euro symbol. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 18:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Absolutely. The Foundation has recently clarified that we can decide, as a project, whether we want to allow certain types of non-free content in our Exemption Doctrine Policy, as long as such use is legal where the project content is predominantly accessed.[2][3] This is a perfect example of a case where this is a good idea. We should not allow a minority agenda to derail our project's fundamental educational mission. — Omegatron 17:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, display the symbol only to illustrate the symbol, do not use it to illustrate handicapped accessibility

  1. Since it appears we are not allowed to use other licences which allow free use of images but do not allow modification, at least on articles of living people (and I'm thinking of Template:NZCrownCopyright here), I can't see why we should use this. I don't agree with the policy, but we should enforce it equally.-gadfium 08:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, do not have the poll

First, we do not vote over policy proposals. Second, this is an issue of copyright law, which is obviously not trumped by consensus. Third, we have rather stringent "fair use and free images" rules for reasons imposed by the board, which means we're not going to use a copyrighted image on templates. I suggest you ask Jimbo to make an exception but he likely won't. By the way there is too "something in Europe as a copyright-free image", for instance those in the public domain or those licensed under the GFDL or somesuch. >Radiant< 08:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with Radiant here. Garion96 (talk) 08:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree with Radiant. —xyzzyn 09:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - Discuss, don't vote. anthony[review] 17:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Small correction: GFDL content is copyrighted, GFDL is a license for distributing copyrighted information. --Kim Bruning 11:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an issue of copyright law, it is an issue of Wikipedia policy. We may legally use the image to indicate handicapped-accessible railway stations, Disney rides, etc. The copyright holder explicitly allows the symbol to be used in this way. The question is do we want to do that.
This poll is to give us a general idea of what members of the community think. No, we don't vote on policy, but a vote can help us get a general idea of where the community stands. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not asking for free reign to use this as though it were licensed under a free as in freedom license — I am not asking for permission to use this on userboxes or in talk pages. I'm asking whether the community feels that limited use to illustrate handicapped accessibility is (or should be) acceptable. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo has been asked: User talk:Jimbo Wales#International Symbol of Access and licensing. His comments seem to imply that if our fair use policy is changed, we can use it under fair use; but right now, our fair use policy prevents us from using it because it's replaceable and needs a rationale for every use. --NE2 17:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion may result in a slight change to the fair use policy, whether it be the letter of the policy or the interpretation. Again, I don't want us to go wild over the use of the wheelchair symbol, but limited use where appropriate would be nice. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the event of the "fair use" policy being changed, it would be good to see that change applied to similar cases - as Gadfium pointed out, Crown Copyright (UK, NZ and other Commonwealth nations), is an analagous situation of reproduction allowed with no modification , and 500 plus images are threatened by recent spate of deletions of crown copyrighted material by free use ideological purists.
The present Fair Use policy is based on US copyright law with some additional restrictions. Unfortunately this
1. tends to exclude images from other jurisdictions so increasing the present US content imbalance and
2. provides a false sense of security that users of Wikipedia images are not breaking copyright or other laws, (some of the crown copyright images have been allowed because they fit within "fair use", when their use could break other nations laws).
There appears to be no reason to consider US law superior to that of most other OECD nations, nor for a policy to be based on anyones law at all.
The reason/retrospective excuse for a policy based only upon US intellectual property law is that wikipedia servers are based in the US, and "fair use" provides protection for the Wikipedia Foudnation against breaches of other nations copyright laws. This reasoning has two flaws - firstly, it does not protect users, as against the foundation, secondly, it does not protect either against laws other than copyright (e.g. defamation).
Ultimately I think we need international lawyers involved in a rethink of the whole policy from the ground up. In the mean time, for the little it is worth, my opinion is a common sense solution might be a relaxation the ideological purity of complete "Free use" position. Reuse without modification is hardly the most onerous requirement, and simply tagging this on the image should warn users of the danger and protect Wikipedia from liability.
If policy in this area is changed a change I would like to see is the abandonment of the Orwellianly loaded terms "Fair Use" and "Free Use", - it appears to me that discussion of change has been chilled because the policy contains the warm and fuzzy but not particularly accurate words "Fair" and "Free". I suspect if a newbie had renamed these policies they would promptly have been deemed POV and reverted :-) Seriously, attempting to discuss the policies seems to provoke at least some readers into irrational knee jerk assumption any one questioning Fair and Free use must be against fairness and freedom. Winstonwolfe 03:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This poll is funny, and it won't change anything. We can't use the symbol, and people would rather argue to use it than make a better looking free version. Holy crap, people, it's not that freaking hard. I mean, just freaking look at it! We can't use the international one, it's painfully clear, deal with it. This isn't even close to being one of those grey areas we usually discuss here, not by a long shot. This is one of the most obvious situations of when to not use fair use that I've ever seen. -- Ned Scott 05:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The question is not "can we?" It's "should we?" We may legally use the image. This poll, so far, has shown great support in favor of using the image, no matter whether the policy currently allows this or not. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Any free alternative is inherently going to not be an internationally recognized symbol. Thus, any free replacement will be inferior to the International Symbol of Access. —Remember the dot (talk) 06:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Legal issues don't matter, our policy, our non optional policy, says no. Being "inferior" is an absurd thing to say. How is it inferior? It might not look as pretty, but that's not significant. It doesn't matter how many people disagree with the policy, it's our policy, and it's been set by the Wikimedia Foundation itself. It's out of your hands, and the poll completely lacks the authority to do anything about the matter. Sorry, but that's the way things are. -- Ned Scott 07:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're talking about adjusting our policy. Again, the only argument against is that our rules say so. If there's no other reasoning, we should change our rules. The poll will be a good thing to take to the foundation, if they're the ones who have to decide. Finally, the free image is inferior because it isn't a recognized symbol. - Peregrine Fisher 07:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt anyone won't understand what the free image is implying, and because of that we don't need an internationally recognized symbol. We're not actually helping handicapped people by using this image, and we shouldn't be. Wikipedia is not a directory, or a guide for the handicapped. People don't need to use Wikipedia to see if handicapped parking is available at some train station. Even if they do use it, which we can't really stop people from doing, it's plain as day what the free image means. -- Ned Scott 07:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But hey, whatever, if you guys want to give the Foundation your poll results, ok. But until they change our policy (which is not limited to just Wikipedia, but to all Wikimedia projects), we can't use the image. -- Ned Scott 07:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A passionate defense of nonsense, Ned; appropriate for April 1st... Side note: Is this not the classic case of WP:IAR? Aren't we supposed to use independent thought to judge and balance these issues? Shouldn't, in this one case, WP:IAR trump WP:FU? Jenolen speak it! 07:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, IAR is not a loop hole that anyone can just use when they don't get what they want. Free content is the very reason Wikipedia (and it's predecessor, Nupedia) was started. Asking to be exempt for such minor situation in face of that is just absurd. Continue to discuss if you want, but those who violate our policies will be dealt with accordingly. -- Ned Scott 08:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dealt with accordingly??? Accordingly to what? And by who? You? Oh, dear god, PLEASE sign me up for an accordingly dealing. (Does it involve Jimbo reading me the anti-creator screed from "Freedom Defined" over and over again until my ears bleed? (Its hysterical (in every sense) reference to "God-like creators" seems to indicate WP:NPOV is certainly not in effect there...)
I love that WP:IAR is a policy... which, apparently, is only a joke, and is NEVER supposed to be actually used. "Heh, heh, you don't really believe all that stuff about ignoring stupid rules to help make Wikipedia better, do ya?" Uh, yeah, I do. That's why WP:IAR is a policy -- and asking you to have an original thought about this matter has apparently scared you so much, you can only fall back on another policy, which you must believe is somehow "immune" from the reach of WP:IAR. I'm not talking about using WP:IAR to turn Wikipedia in to the world's number one fan site; I'm talking about a one-time use of a sensible "check" on the insane dedication to a contradictory and messy set of unencyclopedic fair use standards. A dedication which is, in this case, emperically HURTING Wikipedia, by making it non-standard, non-International, and disabled unfriendly. But how can you process any of that? I mean, you have a very simple "program" - "Copyright = bad. No use on Wikipedia." Which is fine, and all, but both common sense and the law would permit the ISA's use on Wikipedia. I urge you to stand with common sense and the law, and perhaps, just maybe, realize that the answers to all of life's problems can't be found in WP:FU. Jenolen speak it! 08:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It means you'll get banned for breaking the policy. If you use the copyrighted image, get reverted, and keep trying to use it, you will be blocked. You obviously don't understand a fundamental point here on Wikipedia, that our fair use restrictions are actually more restrictive than the law requires, not because of legal issues, but because our goal is to have all of our content under the GFDL. There's no major benefit to using the copyrighted image. Now you're resorting to inappropriate personal attacks on me because I'm simply telling you the facts of the situation. It's laughable to think that we would bend our fair use policy over something so trivial. You've completely missed the point. You're all hung up on something that isn't even an issue. No significant improvement will come from using the "official image" at all. Your argument is weak and lacks logic. Wikipedia will not be better for using another fair use image, it will be worse for using another fair use image. We are about promoting free content and using free content whenever possible, and only using copyrighted content when we have no other options. You are disagreeing with a fundamental value of Wikipedia. -- Ned Scott 08:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And really, who cares if it's blue or not, or exactly the same image. It doesn't matter, EVERYONE will know exactly what it means. Are you really going to fight this tooth and nail, over something so absurdly unimportant and insignificant? You want us to bend the rules for this?? Are you batshit insane? -- Ned Scott 09:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ned, it's not batshit insane to say that it's appropriate to use a nonfree image that has been released by the copyright holder for exactly this sort of use — especially in light of the Foundation resolution on unfree content, which allows exceptions "to include identifying protected works such as logos". It is reasonable to say that a crudely drawn substitute is not an acceptable alternative, because the ISA is internationally recognized, and the crudely drawn susbtitute is not. The Foundation's resolution says that nonfree content "must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose." A reasonable argument can be made that the crude substitute does not serve the same educational purpose as the ISA. So please, refrain from calling people making reasonable arguments "batshit insane". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But this is specifically about incidental use of the symbol without any educational purpose. The issue is not to remove the symbol from International Symbol of Access, but not to use it in an infobox of e. g. metro stations. There, the non-free symbol serves no educational purpose, which can be done just as well by a free symbol; therefore, it must be replaced. The symbol is also not an ‘identifying protected work’ in that context. —xyzzyn 10:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Josiah, they're talking about using the image in templates and stuff, like for train stations. I have no problem with using the image in articles that discuss the image. -- Ned Scott 10:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that. I maintain that the use of the ISA in templates to identify handicap-accessible locations and facilities is an educational use, because it establishes in a clear, unambiguous, internationally recognized manner that the facility in question is handicap-accessible. The substitute image does not perform that function; nor would a text message, which would not be accessible to non-English speakers. Yes, we are the English Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean that we should refuse to use internationally recognized symbols which we're legally entitled to use. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A text message in English would perform this function perfectly, since we are the English Wikipedia. That there are other means to express the same thing shouldn’t bother us especially if those means are in contempt of very basic policy. —xyzzyn 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm dumbfounded at your response, Josiah. Our content is supposed to be free of copyright red tape, so that you can use it for anything, educational, commercial, whatever. We don't allow educational-use only images (unless under WP:FU) or even images that people specifically for Wikipedia-only use (such images can even be speedy deleted). Wikipedia is specifically stricter than the law requires, because we're about free content. WP:FU isn't how it is because of the law, it's that way to prevent needless copyrighted images in a free-use project. This is so fundamental that it hurts my head. -- Ned Scott 20:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that this is not needless — it is offensive to substitute something that looks a bit like an internationally recognized symbol but isn't it, when there is no good reason not to use the internationally recognized symbol. It's like representing a country with an image that looks a bit like its flag, but isn't. If Image:Flag of the United Nations.svg were copyrighted and Image:United Federation of Planets flag.png were free, would it be acceptable to use the latter in UN-related articles? After all, it looks a bit like the UN flag. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure I've covered this already, but unless you know something I don't, using an alternative image in place of the ISA will not be offensive (why the hell would you think it would be?) to people who are disabled. Disabled people don't have an attachment to that image, it's just an informational icon. It's not a flag, it's not a symbol of hope, it's just a damn icon to tell you if there's a ramp somewhere or if there's closer parking spaces. Other people and places commonly use alternative symbols to note disabled access all the time, and do so without incident. -- Ned Scott 00:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear that it's legal to use the ISA. It is not clear to me that it is legal to use a similar "free" image, as that might be considered a derivative work which is not allowed by the copyright holder's release. Matchups 15:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A derivative work is just that. A work which is similar to another work but was created independently isn’t derivative. —xyzzyn 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like this is a gray area where it's hard to tell if we have a derivative work or not. - Peregrine Fisher 19:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a legal expert, but the concept of a stick figure in a wheel chair is one of those things.. OfficeMax used to have a mascot that was a little stick figure, noted by a unique marking on his head. Other stick figures are very similar, but obviously OfficeMax can't make the claim that those stick figures infringe on their copyright. I'd think that same logic would apply here. -- Ned Scott 20:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does fair use even apply? If the image isn't used on a page that discusses the image, then it seems like it doesn't. We wouldn't be using the image under fair use, we'd be using it accordin to what its copyright grants. It isn't going to be released since it's copyright allows anyone to use it, as long as they're designating something that's handicapped accesible. If it were made free, it could be misused to lable something that isn't handicapped accessible, so it isn't going to be released. I wouldn't even want it released. The only change would be that people could misuse it. We should just explain its status on the image page, and then use it for anything that is handicapped accessible. There doesn't seem to be a tag for this sort of thing, so not sure what to do there. - Peregrine Fisher 17:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Content on Wikipedia is supposed to be used for anything, educational or commercial. This is why we can't use images that allow for education use only without a fair use rational. Fair use is the only way we could use this image. -- Ned Scott 20:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ned, we're suggesting that this image might be in a third category: unfree, but not fair use. The Foundation's resolution allows us to create an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) for unfree content. These exemptions must be limited according to item #3 of the resolution:

3. Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals. Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose.

The ISA is clearly an example of "identifying protected works such as logos", and we would be within our Foundation-delimited rights to include it in our EDP. At the moment, en.wikipedia's EDP is WP:FU, and obviously the vast majority of nonfree content on Wikipedia would be determined by our "fair use" policy — but "fair use" is immaterial to the use of this image, whose copyright explicitly allows the uses for which we, and downstream users, would use it. I, and others, are proposing that en.wikipedia's EDP explicitly allow the use of the ISA and other copyrighted international symbols whose use is uncontroversial in any other context.
Ned, you say that you're flabbergasted by my response. I'm somewhat puzzled that you apparently don't see how using a different image in place of the ISA is problematic. If it's sufficiently unlike the ISA not to be a copyright violation, it's potentially confusing and/or offensive to disabled people, who know, use and rely on the ISA. If it's close enough not to be confusing and/or offensive, it's a derivative image. Either way, we're better off using the image itself, and adjusting our EDP accordingly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've explained in private to Josiah just how close I do know about disabled people. There's no risk of confusion, and the offensive concern is not an issue. I'm really not sure why one would come to the conclusion that using a different image would be offensive. I've even seen different images be used to indicate disabled parking, ramps, etc, and they're purely informational, nothing emotional or significant about them. These are not flags, and disabled people do not have an attachment to the ISA image. I don't know why anyone would come to such a conclusion, and I know you don't mean anything bad by that, but if I were disabled I'd be a little offended at your view. Why would you think that this image would be.. "holy" (or whatever) simply because it's used on maps and parking spaces? You've got it all wrong, offensiveness isn't a factor in this at all. No one's feelings will be hurt, no one will be offended. -- Ned Scott 04:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Q & A

Is this image 'free' (in the libre sense)? Nope. There are restrictions on its use.

Is this a bad thing, or a reason not to use it on Wikipedia? Nope. In fact, it's what makes it worthwhile as a symbol—its meaning is clear because of its licensing terms.

Is there any reason why we would want or need to use the symbol in a way that is prohibited by its license? Nope.

Is this a 'fair use' issue? Nope. We would only be using the image in a way explicitly permitted by its license. 'Fair use' is a defence to a charge of copyright infringement; it would only be an issue if we were violating the license terms.

Wait—it's selfish to only think about our own use. What about people who redistribute Wikipedia materials for a profit? They're covered. The image can be redistributed in commercial materials as long as the terms of its license are followed.

Ah, but they can't freely modify the image, create derivative works, or use it without restriction. What about those people? Sucks to be them. If they want to abuse the International Symbol of Access to fuck with the mobility challenged, screw 'em. Wikipedia tolerates hundreds (thousands? more?) of Crown Copyright images which are free for use in educational materials, but require permission for commercial redistribution. Wikipedia tolerates thousands of non-free, copyrighted images under very tenuous 'fair use' claims. We expect that when people make copies or derivatives of articles incorporating these images, those people will take appropriate care to check the licensing of all the images on the page. Here, with the ISA, we have an image being used appropriately and which will likely propagate without harm into reasonable derivative works and commercial copies. Why are we choosing to get stuck on this particular point? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know what tag should go on the image page? - Peregrine Fisher 20:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Images with ‘tenuous’ fair use claims should be tagged accordingly or sent to WP:IFD. Other crap exists, but that’s not a reason to add to it. What about people who find themselves hindered by the third pillar? Well, sucks to be them. —xyzzyn 20:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain how this is fair use. - Peregrine Fisher 21:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images on Wikipedia are either free on unfree. There is no inbetween. This is en policy and was recently clarified in the foundation's licensing resolution, which states that images must be free (as in libre, which the ISA is not), or covered by an EDP, which is for the limited discussion of copyrighted works.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed g2s (talk • contribs) 21:57, April 1, 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Foundation resolution about what EDPs can and can't cover. As I noted above, the Foundation allows us to use nonfree content for "identifying protected works such as logos". There is no reason not to adjust our EDP to allow use of this image, in accordance with the limits the Foundation has set. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That EDP page is interesting. Has anything besides Free and FU been discussed before? - Peregrine Fisher 22:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Our policy already allows for "identifying protected works". Its use on the ISA article is not being debated. Using it as a replacement for the text "disabled access available" is not "identifying [a] protected work". ed g2s • talk 01:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We wouldn't be using it under fair use protection. We'd be using it under the rights granted to us by its copyright. - Peregrine Fisher 02:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have an idea. Let's ban the use of the Wikipedia logo and the Wikimedia logo. After all, they're subject to the Wikimedia visual identity guidelines and not licensed under the GFDL, so they must be worthless and a detriment to our cause of creating free content. —Remember the dot (talk) 03:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Wikipedia logos have been removed and taken down from many pages, banners, and such for those very reasons. Image:Example.jpg used to be the Wikipedia logo, but because it wasn't a free image we took it off. Most people don't realize that Wikipedia's logo is not free use, which is pretty much the only reason we haven't taken it down from non-official uses, or uses unrelated to guidelines, policy, etc. -- Ned Scott 04:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what's the best way to take this to the foundation? It looks like if it was up to us, we would have a consensus to use it to identify handicapped access. At the least, we have a consensus to ask. Jimbo's page doesn't seem like the best place. The last time we tried that, it devolved into snarky comments, and he seemed to tune out. We should probably include the International Symbol for Deafness, and other ICTA symbols in our request. - Peregrine Fisher 03:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
foundation-l --Kim Bruning 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you choose to e-mail them, please emphasize that the ICTA is not going to release this under a free license because they surely only want it used to identify handicapped accessibility. They would not be happy if people abused the image to mark non-handicapped-accessible things with this symbol. That would undermine the value of the symbol as an international identifier of handicapped accessibility. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's use the mailing list. Since this is where we're talking about it, let's discuss what points need to be made. I'll try and list the pros and cons so far. Copying some of the words used in the discussion so far.

Pro:

Using it to designate handicapped accessible objects does not violate its copyright.
The ISA may be freely used to illustrate handicapped accessibility.[4] The symbol's copyright is only to protect improper usage. As long as it is being used to denote a handicapped accessible facility or service, we are using it within its guidelines and not violating its copyright. It's copyright explicitly allows the uses for which we, and downstream users, would use it.
Its meaning is clear precisely because of its licensing terms.
Stereotyped signs, no matter how well intentioned, can often cause offense.
It is non-replaceable, except by Image:Wheelchair.svg or words such as "wheelchair accessible." These are not internationally recognized symbols.
You can profit from it. Look at those handicapped accessible restroom and parking signs companies sell.
It is universally recognised by design and common usage over many years.
It's use would be disability friendly.
The wikimediafoundation does sometimes allow exceptions with an EDP, which currently is WP:FU. FU doesn't speak to this issue.
It would not be used in userspace.
It is easily recognised by non-english speakers.
Using Image:Wheelchair.svg may not be legal, as it may be a derivative work of the ISA.
It is unlikely to be made free because it's copyright's only restriction prohibits its use to designate objects that are not handicapped accessible. Making it free would remove this restriction. They would not be happy if people abused the image to mark non-handicapped-accessible things with this symbol.

Con:

It's not free, and it wouldn't be used under fair use, unlike all images on wikipedia.
The symbol is copyrighted and so derivative works are not permitted.
We have a substitute image Image:Wheelchair.svg, or can use text such as "wheelchair accessible."
It's use would be a violation of Wikipedia policy.
Since we don't allow other free uses of images which which allow modification, we shouldn't do it in this case.
While it wouldn't be used in user space, it could be used in a template, and wouldn't have a (free use?) rational for each page.
They're may be international issues that are not raised in US law.
Wikipedia is not a guide for the handicapped.
It's use is not important.
It serves not educational purpose.
Our goal is to have all of our content under the GFDL, which this image would not be.
Images on Wikipedia are either free on unfree. There is no inbetween.

Did I miss anything important? - Peregrine Fisher 04:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still baffled by this idea that not using the ISA image would be offensive. I'm not being rude here, I honestly am baffled. Have any of you known or lived with a disabled person? Also, while the ISA owns the blue wheel chair image with a stick figure, they can't make claim to every stick figure wheel chair image. Do you think that anyone was offended/confused, or even gave 2 seconds of thought, to images like these: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]? No disabled person is going to be angry or confused when seeing these other images in real life, on streets, maps, restrooms, rides, or ramps, why would they be? You guys need a touch of reality here, and you're making an issue out of nothing. Your over anticipating and trying to preemptively be PC for someone that most people, disabled or not, never even thought was an issue. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, I've never lived with a disabled person. I'm not going to say I'm offended, but the fact that our policies prevent us from using these easily understood symbols is troubling to me. My guess is that when someone sees our version of the wheelchair, they'll think that it probably means disabled access, but they won't be sure. People who don't know they can click on the image and gain additional information will remain slightly unsure.
Those image links you provide seem to be standard uses of the ISA. If using a red version like your first example is legal, but not restricted by the ISA copyright, I would be cool with that. We can just use red versions of all the disabled access symbols. I think they're all just legal uses of the ISA, though.
Will disabled people be pissed if we don't use the standard symbols? Some yes, some no. As we know, WP is mostly edited by able bodied white mails aged 15-45, or something close to that. We're not going to be good judges of what's best for the disabled. Because of this, I think that if we go out of our way to help the disabled more than seems necessary to us, then we'll be getting closer to what's right. We discuss FU vs. Free Use all day, and that makes it seem very important. If you were disabled all day, that would seem important. - Peregrine Fisher 05:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd go farther than that and say most disabled wouldn't even give which image used significant thought. We have no evidence to show otherwise, and only wild and unproven speculation. I'm not willing to "prove" my own experiences with such situations, for privacy reasons, but this is the first I've ever heard someone even suggest that a person might be offended because the disabled icon isn't exactly the same. It's really nice that you guys want to go out of your way to help people, but doing this.. thinking that it is helping disabled people, that's not what's happening. You're not hurting them.. but it's just kind of.. null. That's like me blowing at a house that's on fire, with my mouth, thinking I'm helping. Good intent, but at the end of the day it honestly makes no difference. Really, I'm not making this up. You guys have nothing but unfounded speculation to come to these conclusions. -- Ned Scott 05:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give to you that this discussion is opinion, same as all talk page discussions. I don't know what you mean about proving your own experiences, but even if you yourself are disabled, that doesn't mean you speak for a whole segment of society. I just think we should err on the side of helping disabled people. This is something that some of us think will help disabled people, which isn't silly. Maybe this doesn't make that big of a difference in the lives of disabled people. I don't think that means we shouldn't try. Some things help the disabled a little, and some thing a lot. I say do both, if they don't hurt us. We should do everything we can, and this is easily within the power of the foundation, so we should do it. - Peregrine Fisher 06:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While it's true that even if I was disabled (I'm not) that I wouldn't be able to speak for all disabled people (calling them a segment of society is a very inaccurate way to profile disabled people, who are individuals and have their own views), having some experience with disabled people would seem to trump no experience whatsoever. I don't mean to try to speak with authority, I just mean to point out that there's no evidence to support that there would be any confusion or cause of any offense. Your heart is in the right place, but using the ISA image on things like templates for Disneyland is painfully insignificant to a disabled person's life. We don't bend the rules just because you mean well, because in the end you're still wrong. -- Ned Scott 00:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would call all of those examples derivative works of the ISA, except this one and possibly this one. The legality of derivative works is questionable, but it doesn't look like the ICTA is concerned about them because they are only being used in the context of illustrating handicapped accessibility. Thus, the restrictions the ICTA imposes on creation of derivative works of the ISA appear to be fairly relaxed. This is another thing to mention in the case for permitting use on Wikipedia.
I doubt that any free replacement would be used outside Wikipedia, even if the two symbols are of comparable artistic quality. It may seem counterintuitive to readers to use a symbol completely different from the one actually used in the real world. Thus, there is value in using the internationally recognized symbol in order to maintain consistency with the rest of the world.
The symbol is copyrighted for a very good reason. Do you deny this? If you do not deny that it's copyrighted for a good reason, then why should we refuse to use it in our project? —Remember the dot (talk) 06:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My point in showing the other images was to show that people often use images that are similar but not the exact same as the standard ISA image, and do so without any incident whatsoever. We do not need a white on blue stick figure that is exactly like the ISA one. It won't seem counterintuitive to readers, there won't be confusion, because it's so minor no one will give it any thought. You have no evidence at all to support your speculations, and are blindly ignoring common sense. -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, lengthy debate here. The point is that the Foundation tells us to use free images whenever possible. We can use a free image here rather than a copyrighted one. That's the wiki philosophy. >Radiant< 09:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, this discussion is just stupid and pointless beyond belief !!! And Jimbo saying that we can't use the image without changing the FU policy is even more STUPID (Sorry Jimbo, i really do feel so). We don't have a tag for it  ? MAKE a tag !! We don't have policy that says we can use it? MAKE it a policy that we can use this specific image!!! To say that we need to explicitly have an exception to the policy is just stupid for a single image. We could have 20 respectable editors sign of on it on the Image page and say: "It's ok to use this copyrighted image, in relation to disability topic within wikipedia etc etc etc." Categorize it as copyrighted image, Categorize it as "free to use, not to edit" and get it done with. This is Wikipedia bureaucracy that is pointless and disrupting even. Get over yourselves and over Jimbe (Jimbo is not WikiGod) --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 14:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if you haven't yet signed the poll, I would like it if you would do so so that we can get an idea of the number of people agreeing and disagreeing. Another way to phrase the question would be "do the benefits of using this image outweigh the copyright restrictions?" Many of us say yes, and many say no. By all means, continue to discuss the issue. However, without signing the poll, it's hard to tell whether 90% or 50% of users support using this image. This is a question hard to decide by consensus, so it would really be helpful if we could at least identify strong support for one side or the other, see Wikipedia:Resolving disputes#Conduct a survey. —Remember the dot (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You can't force people to use a survey. It's pretty obvious that we have tons of editors that would disagree with the usage you are trying to promote. My guess is a lot of people don't even think this is worth the trouble to talk about. It's that simple. -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, by my estimate, approximately 75% of the Wikipedians who have took place in this discussion have supported using the ISA to indicate handicapped accessibility. If you are claiming that the silent majority supports your position, then let me reiterate to you that the silent majority is silent, i.e. they haven't told us what they think.
I'm still waiting to hear your position on using the unfree Wikimedia logos in places such as Template:Interwikitmp-grp, Template:Commons, Template:InterWiki, Template:Meta, Template:Wikibooks, and Template:Wikiversity, not to mention every single page on Wikipedia. —Remember the dot (talk) 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You'll have to ask the Foundation, but my guess would be that the logo can be used for operational tasks of Wikipedia, but not as actual article content without a rationale. But for all we know, we should take them out of those templates too. The logo was Image:example.jpg for years before it was finally taken out. Most people don't even know the logos are not under the GFDL.
As for the sidebar itself, that is not considered to be part of the article document, just a part of the page displaying the content. About.com can display their copyrighted logo along side their mirrored copy of Wikipedia content, because the article is not "the entire window". The entire window is just how the end product is produced, nothing more than a UI, and the article is within the UI.
As for the silent majority, you can't just ignore past discussions about similar issues simply because it's not in -this- discussion. We do not ignore the thoughts and concerns of our fellow Wikipedias just because they can't watch every possible discussion, especially when we know they have strong positions on such matters. Do you honestly think we can't round up an assload of Wikipedians to push that little survey the other way around by simply making this discussion better known? A poll, even if recent, does not just debunk previous discussion or well known arguments of active Wikipedians. Like I said before, no one has probably bothered to get more attention to this discussion, or has seen the discussion but passed it up, because many of us feel this is such a minor and obvious issue. Keep pushing the issue if you really want to be proven wrong so badly, but I'd rather you not, for the sake of using all of our time more wisely. -- Ned Scott 03:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where are these past discussions? Who participated in them? How similar are they to this instance?
You assume that these other Wikipedians support your position and that is why they are not commenting. However, Wikipedians such as Amarkov and Badagnani indicated the exact opposite, saying that it is very clear that we should be able to use this image. Even if the other Wikipedians are all rolling their eyes at this discussion and staying aloof from it, their disinclination to participate does not indicate support for one side or the other.
You may be surprised to know that I sent out notices to several editors who participated in previous discussions about this exact same issue, and that there is currently an RFC open on this topic. By all means, please inform other editors who you think would like to participate. We could even open a request for mediation, although unless I misunderstand the policy, all 24 (by my count) Wikipedians who have commented would have to sign off on it. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Guessing what wikipedians who aren't commenting think isn't binding, obviously. But, my experience with these wikipedia name space talk pages is that this is where the strict interpretation crowd hangs out. It would be cool if we could get a watchlist notice like WP:ATT has right now. I think the more diverse the group of people brought in, the higher the proportion of support for these images would be. The proportion of support is actually enormously high considering who traffics these page. - Peregrine Fisher 05:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A watchlist notice is an interesting idea, but we should wait until the WP:ATT controversy blows over before putting up another notice. That way, we'd be less likely to anger Wikipedians over overuse of that mechanism. And by that time, we may already have this discussion resolved. —Remember the dot (talk) 06:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, we don't want to try and do the watchlist thing now. Maybe after this discussion plays out, and if we have a consensus, we should implement the changes in policy that we've been discussing. It seems like Jimbo and rest of WP didn't even notice the whole WP:ATT merge until after it was done. After that, we can discuss the watchlist notification if people have a problem. - Peregrine Fisher 06:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I seriously doubt they'd make a watchlist announcement for something like this. If you guys really want to get down to business then I suggest we make this a little more organized and less poll-ish, maybe using a separate, structured discussion, RFC page (summaries on one side, structured discussion on the talk side). We might also get some good insight by asking for comments from Wikipedians listed in Category:Wikipedians by physiological condition's subcats. Feel free to even keep counts and comments that are already existing, but right now the discussion is all over the place and needs to be a little better formatted. I still think it's a waste of time, but it might be a good lesson for you guys. Remember, you can have good intentions but completely miss the point, especially when you don't have a clue about what you're talking about in the first place.. -- Ned Scott 07:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An RfC might be a good idea. What's the procedure for keeping counts and comments from what's happened before? - Peregrine Fisher 07:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DJ, the issue is when the image isn't being used in articles about disability, instead being used in articles like ones for Disneyland rides (in the infobox, with only the icon being shown). -- Ned Scott 00:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disneyland rides are just one possible use, and probably a minor one. If we can get the copyright stuff figured out, we could include any of the 13 disability access symbols on appropriate pages. Things like museums, libraries, television programs, and books. - Peregrine Fisher 01:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For a moment, lets say all of these images are free use images and we have no such problem. The images are being used as if we were some kind of travel guide, rather than helping article content. Just because the guide seems like it's for a good cause doesn't make it any less of a guide. Now, I'm sure we don't need to take out stuff simply for that reason, as long as it doesn't get out of hand then who cares if Wikipedia helps you find a handicapped ramp, but that's a secondary concern that is outside of the article's real content. Don't forget that we are an encyclopedia, not a place to dump every possible tid bit of info. Information for disabled people is abundant and easily accessed for the kind of uses you guys are talking about, and there's no demand for us to fill this extra role. -- Ned Scott 03:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like encyclopedic information to me, when used within an already encyclopedic article. A list of disability accessible whatevers would seem to be more of a guide. Also, because other sites may have similar info doesn't mean we shouldn't. - Peregrine Fisher 03:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
List of New York City Subway stations is an example of its use; essentially it makes the table smaller than saying "handicapped accessible". --NE2 03:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could see how having this information for the NYC subway might be helpful to researchers of disability accessibility and as such I think it belongs in wikipedia --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 11:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I can see that point, but that doesn't require the use of the ISA image. There's no reason, other than convenience and appearances, that we can't use text, which would tell everyone what is being noted, not just those who know what the image means (most people know it's something for disabled people, but often they think it's a wheelchair only sign, etc). The ISA image isn't the most informative option simply because it's a graphical symbol. Blind people using text readers won't be helped by the image, but I guess it's ok to ignore those disabled people. -- Ned Scott 20:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. It's such an international symbol that it IS better then text. And I think it's a very bad reason to in this specific case not allow usage of such a logo just because of our Fair Use policy. Also for blind people there is the "alt" attribute of the image and the mousehover text. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 23:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Im admittedly jumping in late to the party here, but the goal of wikipedia is a freely reproducible, usable encyclopedia. Sure, all the uses we have for the symbol are legit, but by the GFDL we have to give all downstream users of the 'pedia the right to modify it, and this breaks that. Fair use is a neccesary evil in cases where free alternatives are available. This has a free alternative. Using this is just blatent disrespect to the liscense of our work where there need be none. And the notion that disabled people would be offended would be shocking if it werent so patently absurd. Its hyperbole from an undefensible posistion. Look in the top right corner of the page, you see our logo and the text Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia. That doesn't mean no cost, that means freedom. Get off your mock-indignation that we actually intend to support free culture and use the freely liscensed wheelchair image. -Mask 00:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This image may or may not indicate disability services.
It's the classic free vs. encyclopedia argument. I guess you feel the free part is more important in this case. Other people here feel the free alternative (assuming it isn't just a derivative work) doesn't do the job well enough. The 13 disability access symbols are free, as long as they're used to identify disability services. You can even make derivative works such as this one, as long as it is used to identify disability services. The reason why the real images should be used is because a person can be sure that it isn't identifying something without the correct services, precisely because of its copyright restrictions. - Peregrine Fisher 01:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Thats frankly not my call to make, it's Jimbo's and he's been quite clear on that. I dont know if you remember way back, but there were fair use images everywhere till the Foundation approved rampage got most of them. It's why 'Wikipedia is Free content' is one of the Wikipedia:Five pillars deemed the core essence of wikipedia. And while you're here, its Jimbos world, you just play in it. Got a problem with it? Because of that wonderful GFDL, you are perfectly welcome to fork the project and start your own. -Mask 02:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We're just discussing it and hoping to get the foundation to think about it, and possibly grant us an exception for these symbols. - Peregrine Fisher 02:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the board's resolution allows each project to set its own Exemption Doctrine Policy, without nailing down firm rules about what will and will not be permitted by these policies. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to jump in again. Isn't our own wikipedia logo copyrighted ??? I mean how hypocrytical would that be. You say to use a (forbidden) derivative work of an internationally recognized logo, a logo which is internationally freely usable to identify accessibility issues, whilst not even having your own logo using the same "standard".... Sorry, but this is just laughable. You cannot say that the wikipedia logo not being GFDL is "rightful" and then the ISA logo, which i'm 100% sure is more free then the wikipedia logo is not usable. And I checked, the wikipedialogo is in use ALL OVER the place where it might not be 100% compatible with the current license for downstream usage. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 13:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Above, someone wrote, in defense of not using the ISA, This has a free alternative... Not really. Just because someone makes their own non-standard, non-Internationally accepted version of the handicapped access symbol doesn't make it an "alternative." It is, however, non-standard, and non-Internationally accepted... not unlike my own Stop Sign design I'm hoping will become the new standard. Jenolen speak it! 02:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the wheelchair stick figure we created is a derivative work, although I don't know a ton about copyright law. Imagine if you put that image on a sign, and put the sign in front of a non disability accessible building. That doesn't sound legal to me. You probably can't know for sure without going to court, but people have been sued over stick figures like in the Xiao Xiao case. Or to think of it another way, what if Nike's symbol on their shoes was the ISA. I think they would sue you into the ground if you came out with a shoe that had our wheelchair symbol on it. - Peregrine Fisher 03:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly do you think downstream are users going to want to do with the ISA that requires a less restrictive license? —Remember the dot (talk) 04:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to clarify something: we do not use non-free licenses ... EVER. This is Foundation-level policy. They are simply forbidden, completely. No matter how reasonable you think they are. Any argument that goes along the lines of, "but the license say we can use it for ..." should be completely ignored. It is an unfree license (per the Foundation's definition) and as such of no interest to us whatsoever.

All that is left to consider is whether it is covered by our EDP. For "identifying the protected work" on the ISA page it is. As a replacement for the free and adequate text (WP:FUC#1), "disabled access available" or a footnote, it isn't. ed g2s • talk 13:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

‘In this freedom, it is the user’s purpose that matters, not the [artist]’s purpose’[11]; ‘Especially, [the licence] must not specify any usage restrictions’[12]; ‘All projects are expected to host only content which is under a Free Content License,’ ‘as can be found at http://freedomdefined.org/Definition’[13]. And that’s why we don’t use ‘usable free of charge for limited purposes’ material. —xyzzyn 15:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my question: What exactly do you think downstream are users going to want to do with the ISA that requires a less restrictive license?
Also, if that's really what you think, then you should go remove the copyrighted logos from Template:Interwikitmp-grp, Template:Commons, Template:InterWiki, Template:Meta, Template:Wikibooks, and Template:Wikiversity, as they are "of no interest to us whatsoever". —Remember the dot (talk) 17:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Trying to predict every possible outcome of creativity and artistic process is pointless; trying to sort such outcomes into legitimate and illegitimate ones is entirely futile. I don’t think about what downstream users are going to do with free material; I let them. I think that’s the spirit of the definition of freedom recently made official by the Foundation.
The Foundation’s logos should be removed where they do not meet the usual criteria for non-free logos, but I’ll leave that to somebody better able to handle the ‘response’ by you-know-who and just post my opinion in the discussion. —xyzzyn 18:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think that the foundation refused to license the logos under the GFDL? —Remember the dot (talk) 18:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've been busy in real life and unable to participate in this debate as much as I would like, but after private correspondence with Ned Scott I'd like to retract my earlier claim that the ISA is like a flag and that alterations of it may be offensive to people with disabilities. This was based on a misunderstanding on my part.

However, I still think that Peregrine Fisher's concern that the substitute image may be a derivative of the ISA is an important one. If Image:Wheelchair.svg is a derivative image of the ISA, then if we want to use it we will have to carve out an exemption for it in our EDP — and if we did that, there would be no reason not to use the real, internationally recognized symbol instead of its derivative. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Josiah, Do you agree with me and remember the dot, that if the ISA image needs to be an exemption by the EDP in order to be used, that the wikipedia and wikicommons etc logo's also need an EDP amendment ? --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 19:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes — and I think that EDP amendments should be made, both for the various Wikimedia logos and for the ISA and the other ICTA icons. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We just need a new image

I think the problem is just that is too closely modeled on the ISA symbol. That's the reason it looks silly. We need a totally different idea. I would suggest a direct icon of a wheelchair wheel, something like , but optimized to be more particular to the context (perhaps an inner guide wheel, a different arrangement of spokes, whatever works).--Pharos 21:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest we then just use text. There is no point in using a "comparable" image to an internationally recognized symbol, that is so different that it's not a derivative work but also still recognizable as "the international logo". That would just be a "working ourselves around wikipedia policies"-attempt, without having to actually think about why the policies are there. In my eyes, the policies are the problem here, not the use cases. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 21:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But icons are practically useful to us, and not just when they're "international standards". See all of the different icons at Template:Infobox Disney ride. I feel that a wheelchair wheel icon, easily recognizable as such, would help our readers, without embarrassing us with a silly image, or forcing us to give up our valuable free images policy.--Pharos 22:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should reinvent the wheel ;-)
Users should be able to tell immediately what the image represents, rather than having to learn a new symbol used only on Wikipedia. It would be much better to use a partially unfree image than to confuse our readers. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Text would be better than a symbol which would be meaningless to readers. The advantage of a symbol is to convey information quickly and efficiently. The ISA does that. does that too, only more awkwardly and in a fashion that may be a derivative use of the ISA. does not — my first thought on seeing that image was of the Ashoka Chakra in the middle of the Flag of India. (Do we want to say that a given railway station or Disneyland ride is accessible to Indians?) I don't see how the icon of a wheelchair wheel, of whatever design, will convey what the ISA does.
Furthermore, I believe that any attempt to create an ISA replacement for Wikipedia's use is doomed to failure, because the ISA is the only widely recognized symbol for accessibility. As I've said before, only an image similar to the ISA will be widely understood, and such an image is probably a derivative work. Any image sufficiently distinct from the ISA will be too unfamiliar to readers to be of any use. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I'm not really someone who's absolutely dead-set against text. Although it wouldn't exactly be unique to have an icon that only exists on Wikipedia, like for example Image:SingleRiderAvailability.png. I do feel that it would be probably be possible to come up with an icon that in the context of transport articles would be recognizable as a wheelchair wheel symbol; but perhaps I'm wrong, and we should just use text. I don't think we could be "doomed to failure" in any case as the goal is rather modest — just an icon that would be usable at Wikipedia; this shouldn't be interpreted as some sort of grand challenge to the ISA.--Pharos 06:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just ask the ISA itself?

Ask them what they think of the issue. That might help.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 05:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure their answer is already clearly demonstrated by the copyright they have given the image: "No, we don't mind you using it for its intended purpose. No, we aren't changing the license." --tjstrf talk 06:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's unlikely that the ICTA (the organization) would release the ISA or the other accessibility icons under a free license, but I suppose there's no harm in asking. If they say "no", then at least we know for certain. It would be good if someone with some experience asking for free licensing did it. The ICTA's contact info is here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When we tell them "It would be nice and all if you prefer us to use your logo, but because of the licence you use, we are not willing to use it, what do you suggest we do?", they might come up with a solution for us. Remember, they are the experts in the area, and they might think of things that we haven't thought of yet. Martijn Hoekstra 15:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We should use the image as intended by the ISA. A minority of Wikipedians are pushing their zeal for libre images to a ridiculous extreme. This is a great example of a good use of non-free image content. Johntex\talk 06:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not "a ridiculous extreme." The point here is, no matter how noble a purpose we may think is served by this license, we do not use licenses which restrict use of a work more than the GFDL would. It would be exceptionally easy to simply replace instances of this symbol with text-"wheelchair accessible." (And indeed, if our goal is greater access to the disabled, this would be much easier for the blind using screen readers then an image anyway.) We only use restricted images under very limited circumstances, and when absolutely no alternative is available. In this case, alternatives are. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It definitely is a ridiculous extreme. A small minority of people are too afraid of non-free content. We need to be less restrictive in our use on non-free content, not more restrictive. Our primary goal should be to build an informative and easy to read encyclopedia. If a different image can help with that fine, but we shouldn't avoid this image just because it is non-free. That is not a good use of our time or resources. Johntex\talk 07:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our primary goal, actually, is to create a free encyclopedia. That doesn't just mean "free of charge," nor even just "free for anyone to edit." It means that whenever possible, we use content which is permissible for anyone to use, copy, redistribute, or modify. In some cases, a non-free image is the only possibility for illustrating something, generally when the image itself is being discussed. For example, the article about the ISA would have to use the ISA, because it is discussing the symbol itself. That is a valid use, and no free alternative could serve that purpose. The same would be true, for example, in discussing an iconic, notable photograph or painting. But in most cases, free alternatives can be used or created, and we should not use unfree content in those cases. In this case, the free-content phrase "wheelchair accessible" will serve the same purpose as an unfree image-illustrating that the location in question is accessible. Given the choice between something free ("libre") which will serve the purpose, and something less than that, we always choose the free alternative. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
About blind users using screen readers, the screen reader should pick up the alt attribute and read that text, making either text or the image equally accessible to a blind reader. There is no reason to prefer the text over the image because of accessibility concerns. The question is, for the majority of users, would we rather present them with the ISA?
I and others who have commented hold that the ISA, as an internationally recognized symbol, is irreplaceable. No free equivalent could be created, as any free equivalent would be used only on Wikipedia and not in the real world. —Remember the dot (talk) 15:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not wikipedia policy. The problem is international law. Who the *beep* copyrights a standard symbol, and puts limits on its use!? What next? The letter "A", or the symbol "$" ? %-/ --Kim Bruning 12:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well that is quite common. We live in a world of protectionist laws, and as such you need to have the copyright and what not in order to defend the usage of a verbatim or similarly looking text/image. I would also like to point out that in many countries it's not possible to "give-up" the copyright, you can only licence your work freely (or not of course :D ). Note that the usage license is the problem here, NOT the copyright. Almost all major International standards are copyrighted, luckily most don't define their own images. I still think it's stupid not to allow the use of this logo btw. I still think it falls under current Fair Use law, just not under our Fair Use policy.
It's like saying you are gonna write an encyclopedia in morse code, but you can't use the symbols for morse code, because the international morse code standard says that it would be illlegal to switch the meaning of the dot and the dash. There just isn't a point in that. Sometimes you need to see where your own rules simply exceed the commons sense. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 12:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS. note that almost all the fonts are not free for use. Your suggested situation is already a reality and always has been. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 12:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Latin alphabet was first published prior to 1923. The ISA was not. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 18:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
However, that's not quite such an esoteric point as it sounds. The euro symbol, €, is copyright. "The copyright for the euro symbol belongs to the European Community, which for this purpose is represented by the European Commission."[14] Yet we freely use it to represent the Euro currency, just as organisations and companies all over the world use it, include it in standard fonts, and so on. How are we able to do this? Because "The Commission does not object to the use of the euro symbol, indeed it encourages the symbol’s use as a currency designator" - just as with the ISA, the copyright holder allows the symbol to be freely used to indicate the information it is intended to indicate. The ISA does "object to use of the symbol in commercial logos, particularly where a third party aims to obtain trademark protection for a logo"; but as we are not using it in this case, there seem to have been no copyright objections to it, despite the fact that our users are not totally free to take parts of Wikipedia including Euro symbols and use them in whatever way they like.
I think a lot of people are seeing the use of this image as more outrageous than it is, because people think that there are two basic statuses - "copyright" and "free". This is, of course, wrong - most free works, including Wikipedia, are copyright, with the copyright retained to ensure that they can be distributed freely. Wikipedia isn't released without restriction - you can only use its content IF you give adequate credit to Wikipedia. Template:CopyrightedFreeUseProvided is considered a free licence as long as the provisions do not restrict third party use. But, yes, we do set a line, based on the Definition of Free Cultural Works, which neither the euro symbol nor the ISA meet. However, a new exception, as proposed below - "Internationally accepted symbols that are copyright protected but released for use by anyone to represent a piece of information may be used to represent that information" - wouldn't seem to me to be unreasonable at all. Users can continue to download, use, alter, modify, and so on, all those parts of Wikipedia that use the ISA, euro symbol, and other similarly-licenced symbols. The only thing they can't do is take out those symbols in isolation and use them in entirely different ways to how they are used in Wikipedia. This isn't optimal - we'd like the symbols to be entirely free - but given that using something that is not the internationally-recognised symbol will not be as good as using the internationally-recognised symbol, I'm not sure that we should utterly deplore these nearly-free symbols. TSP 20:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fork

This discussion has forked into Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Usage of Non-free wikipedia logo not compliant with current EDP?. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moving on with the consensus

I'd like to point out that, despite the vastly disproportionate amount of text, there is a large consensus so far to use the image. The "no" responses are generally in the section "No, do not have the poll", by a few people claiming that their narrow interpretation of Wikipedia policy trumps 26 supporting editors, These people have talked at great length (especially Ned Scott), making it look like there's more disagreement than there is. To not use the image to illustrate accessibility would be against consensus.

Of course, I recognize that it would not be correct to claim that the image is as freely licensed as, say, a CC-By-SA image. The solution I propose is to simply note the image's (very liberal but not entirely free by our definition) copyright status on its image page, and work out a guideline for when it is okay to use the image (which I propose should be the same as the ISA's guideline: when it indicates handicap accessibility). It would be kind of like fair use, but most of the restrictions of fair use don't apply: we don't need to use a reduced resolution version, it doesn't just have to be for critical review, and we're encouraged by the ISA to use it when an alternative is available.

rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 16:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is rational, reasonable, and entirely appropriate. I fully agree that there is a large consensus to use the image. Let's work on figuring out a way to satisfy both the desire of the community, while protecting (as best as can be done) the wishes of the vocal minority who would prefer we didn't use this standard International symbol. Would this require a change to our current EDP? Or is this a good time to actually use the oft-invoked, seldom acted upon WP:IAR? Jenolen speak it! 08:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you have to ignore the rule, that's a sign something probably needs fixing. However, this is a very narrow exception, so it could be as simple as something like "Internationally accepted symbols that are copyright protected but released for use by anyone to represent a piece of information may be used to represent that information" Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, the entire discussion seems to be driven by the use of the image on Template:Infobox_Disney_ride where it is trivially replaceable, and on userpages which wouldn't be in conformance with the license terms for the icon. To me, this seems a bit dishonest... like folks who are trying to advocate a break from our restrictive policies have found some image that they can cry "think of the disabled!" about. But perhaps I'm missing something... In any case, the decision to hold this conversation here is an example of forum shopping.. and as a result the poll tells us nothing. --13:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gmaxwell (talk • contribs) 13:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I'm pretty sure the license terms would allow us to use the symbol in userboxes if we wanted. However, I'm not making that an issue.
If the village pump is forum shopping, then where would you rather we held this discussion? —Remember the dot (talk) 15:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An excellent point. If the page dedicated to discussing Wikipedia policies is now deemed by a high-level, well connected admin to be an inappropriate venue for discussing a change to Wikipedia policies, we're deep in to 1984 territory. But I'll bite, in hopes the admin responsible isn't just being a jerk ... where are we supposed to discuss this proposed policy change? You wouldn't be trying to stifle debate/discussion of this issue because it's patently ridiculous, and makes Wikipedia look like it's run by a bunch of high school debate club students run amok, would you? Let's again remember what's at stake here - Wikipedia is taking a stand, apparently, AGAINST using an internationally recognized and, in some cases, legally mandated symbol for disabled access because... uh ... because... well... you know, because it's not libre enough. A fine reason to some, no doubt, but I would guess the vast majority of those in the "sensible" community would find it somewhat puzzling that every effort isn't being made to include this simple, simple, harmless standardized icon. Jenolen speak it! 05:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are a couple angles from which I feel comfortable calling this forum shopping. VP has a much higher concentration of new/inexperienced users than most other Wikipedia policy forums. There are also several designated places for discussing copyright related policies, while VP is very high traffic with a poor SNR, so our users with the most knowledge and experience in copyright matters will not usually see a discussion here. In any case, I find it hard to respect anyone who is trying to argue that we should permit a restricted use based on completely unsubstantiated claims that we are legally mandated to do so. --Gmaxwell 19:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


We don't need a special exemption for just this image; we need to address the underlying problem.

All the "no" votes are actually in the "this poll is invalid" section, claiming either that:

  • This is a copyright issue; not a policy issue
  • These policies are not subject to community consensus

and therefore the concept of asking the community what they think is fundamentally invalid.

Of course both are false. The image is licensed such that it can be used legally, and our policies are decided by community consensus and popular support. The Foundation has not mandated that we only use free content; they have given us the freedom to decide as a project which kinds of non-free content we want to allow. This is where we decide, and popular opinion is clear. — Omegatron 18:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The foundation has laid out a narrow set of guidelines covering the area which projects may decide to use legal non-free content. Using this image as userpage and template decoration is not within the scope of the foundation's permission. Furthermore, the use of it in this manner may well fall short of the copyright restrictions under which it has been released. --Gmaxwell 19:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well said. Should we ask the Arbitration Committee to put their stamp of approval on this change (see Jimbo's comment)? Or should we just be bold and implement the change? —Remember the dot (talk) 02:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no, you're not even close to showing a need for the image, and there's no way in hell that change is going to happen by being bold. -- Ned Scott 02:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And popular opinion is not how we do things here. This is not a vote, not a democracy, and not a place for flawed speculations. Our policy is very strict, what on Earth makes you think this is ok simply because a bunch of misguided users have their hearts in the right place, but not their heads. I've never seen so many people become so blind to logic because they wanted to be "PC". The arguments for using the image are painfully flawed. No other image is acceptable? Says who? Has a single disabled person even been involved in the discussion? Gmaxwell hit the nail on the head in his comment. The ISA image will not be used in Disneyland infoboxes, or other unneeded places, deal with it. -- Ned Scott 02:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Funny you should ask whether a disabled person has participated in the discussion. In fact, Ispy1981 voiced his support for using the ISA (note that Ispy1981's comment was made with the assumption that the ISA (in black and white) was still used on User:Ginkgo100/Userboxes/User Wheelchair).
Essentially what you're saying (unless I misunderstand) is that the policy is not subject to debate, which is not true. And I can't wait for you to go around removing every instance of the character € because it can be replaced by the text "euros". —Remember the dot (talk) 03:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you misunderstand. Our policy is subject to debate, just not subject to weak arguments and flawed logic. And I hate to break this to you, but "€" is considered text.. Even if it wasn't, why the hell would I do something like that? I love images and symbols, but the ISA image has copyright restrictions and can be easily replaced by another image or by text alone. How does that lead you to think that I would replace the symbol for euros.. You've misunderstood me a whole lot if you can't even tell that. -- Ned Scott 06:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The euro symbol has similar restrictions to the ISA. It is copyrighted to protect its usefulness. The main difference with the euro symbol is that it is included in most fonts, while the ISA is not. The ISA does have a Unicode codepoint, U+267F, showing up as ♿. A compatible font such as DejaVu Sans must be installed to view the character. —Remember the dot (talk) 15:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Euro sign is copyrighted? -- Ned Scott 02:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While most people probably don't have something like DejaVu Sans installed (I didn't, but it was pretty easy), using unicode for the ISA image would be a great solution to this situation. ♿ -- Ned Scott 03:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the Euro sign is copyrighted, but it may be freely used to designate the Euro currency. Please read [15]. Whether we represent the ISA as a character or as an image makes little difference to our goal of using free content. Most Linux readers would probably have no trouble viewing the ISA as a character, but the majority of our readers use Windows and would just see a question mark. It would make more sense to simply represent the ISA as an image, rather than asking all the Windows users to download and install a new font just to see one symbol. —Remember the dot (talk) 03:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"The copyright for the euro symbol belongs to the European Community, which for this purpose is represented by the European Commission." I'm no lawyer, but that almost sounds like public domain if the European community is considered the copyright holder. -- Ned Scott 03:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep reading and it will make more sense. "[The European Commission] does however object to use of the symbol in commercial logos, particularly where a third party aims to obtain trademark protection for a logo." In other words, the European Commission acts as the copyright holder and restricts companies from using the euro sign as a logo. People might confuse the euro sign with the company's logo. If the euro sign is significantly altered to alleviate confusion then it would be OK to use it in a logo.
In any case, it's not something that we need to worry about. The euro sign is free for practically any purpose. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Granted it's not relevant to our discussion, but that's a trademark issue, not a copyright issue. -- Ned Scott 07:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

←Well, if you're OK with representing the ISA as a character in text, then there shouldn't be much problem representing it as an image either. The only difference is how the content gets to the reader's computer, whether through a font from another website or from our website directly. The end result is the same. —Remember the dot (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The end result is the same, but the difference is we're not hosting or distributing the image itself.
As crazy as it sounds, I've often wondered if we just created an unofficial FU server, then allowed people to optionally download a plug-in to their browser, and then display the images from the FU server in-line to articles on Wikipedia that had meta-data markers for where the image would go. Right now I'm thinking about how to make such a meta-data market for {{Episode list}}, and then make a Wikia Wiki that would host LOEs but in a locked form and updated from Wikipedia by bot. Users would use the Wikia site only for uploading the images and image captions (via templates it would be easy). To update the list all users would still update the same copy, the Wikipedia copy, but would allow for an screen-shot version to exist. (Not to say that I'm totally against screen-shots in LOEs.. I'm still a bit undecided about that).
The GFDL allows us to have our cake and eat it too. There's no reason we can't take our content and put non-free images all over it, but there's also no reason why it has to technically be hosted by Wikipedia (provided we have reasonable navigation back and forth).
The font is an extra-easy way to do something similar, allowing us to embed an image without hosting the image file ourselves. -- Ned Scott 23:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think a separate wiki for non-free images would be of questionable legality since the people hosting the content would not be the ones using it for critical commentary. If we're going to use an image, we ought to have the guts to host it ourselves.
As far as a version of Wikipedia without unfree images, I'm sure a proxy server could be created that would filter out unfree images. But I doubt there would be much demand for it. Most people don't look at at an article and feel offended that we included an unfree image in it. Rather, I would imagine that most people are happy that we are able to use unfree images to create a better encyclopedia. —Remember the dot (talk) 00:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The second Wiki would be hosting an active copy of the content, so there would be no such legal concern. This has nothing to do with "guts" because we wouldn't be doing this out of "fear"...
I'm not talking about making Wikipedia free from all non-free images. I believe such images do have a place when they are vital to the article. My idea is for non-vital, but still legally fair use, situations. -- Ned Scott 00:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't that undermine our goal of creating free content because people would just visit the more relaxed version of Wikipedia? —Remember the dot (talk) 00:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I thought of that too. That's why the split version is locked and is only used for the image uploads and article viewing. The articles would be copied over from Wikipedia automatically, so if you want an edit to show up there you would have to contribute to the Wikipedia copy. -- Ned Scott 00:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in that case people would only visit the regular copy if they were going to edit it. The ordinary user would just browse through the relaxed version. —Remember the dot (talk) 00:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And? -- Ned Scott 00:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There would be little motivation to create free content. People might think "Why should I bother taking a picture and releasing it under a free license? Anyone can already look at the promotional photo on Wikipedia Relaxed if they want to see a picture." —Remember the dot (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As crazy as it sounds, I've often wondered if we just created an unofficial FU server, then allowed people to optionally download a plug-in to their browser, and then display the images from the FU server in-line to articles on Wikipedia that had meta-data markers for where the image would go.

Other way around. The people who are so vehemently opposed to all non-free content need to create a fork that strips it out. Wikipedia has always allowed non-free content when it helps us write a high-quality encyclopedia, and we shouldn't give this up because of a loud minority of agenda-pushers. — Omegatron 15:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The logo isn't going to be used on Wikipedia in any way that violates the ISA's restrictions. It is worthwhile to have due to universal recognition. It is the responsibility of end user (readers who print it out, forkists, etc.) to insure that they do not violate the ISA's use requirements. This is true of all fair use images, and cannot be refuted as incompatible with the GFDL unless one would suggest abolishing fair use images entirely. Wikipedia needs to adapt to "semi free" images and cast aside the binary free/unfree method of thinking. If Wikipedia is to encourage openness it must not impose any restrictions not already attached to the image. It is a sad day when an organization is willing to allow us to use their logo in purposes beneficial to the encyclopedia and it is Wikipedia's own red tape that prevents is from doing so.--HereToHelp 21:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! A long and interesting debate on free use/fair use - amazing. OK, seems there is a consensus on a proposal to ArbCom, but here's just a thought. If I want to use the ISA image in the UK, it has to comply with certain regulations - for instance, if I want to apply it to a building, then I have to have it applied at certain heights/locations/sizes; and my building needs to comply with certain building regulations first before it can be applied. My thought would be that's why its copyrighted. Effectively its out there and could be argued to be fair use - but its in its implementation in use that the need for copyright is the simplest legal format for controlling application. Lets say for instance ArbCom agree it can be used - the next questions would be where and how? I found this page on the UK's Royal National Institute of the Blind website which tackles the implementation of the UK's Discrimination Act, and what is "accessible", quoting a case where a disabled person sued the 2000 Olympics in Sydney and won Aus$20,000 in judgement (interesting that the RNIB, a leading UK disability organisation don't use the ISA on their website). So, much as though debates can be had on whether its fair use of not, the key question for me still revolves around the HOW? We could open up more of a legal can of worms than just free use or not/change of policy. Rgds, --Trident13 11:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting thought -- I would presume that we would display the ISA only if the metro station, Disney ride, etc. being discussed also uses the ISA. That way, we are merely reflecting what is already there, instead of making judgments about what does and does not qualify as handicapped accessible. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moving on (again)

Thanks to all who have expressed their views. I think that the consensus is even more clear now that this change in policy is supported by the community. I think that we should ask the Arbitration Committee to place their stamp of approval on this change (a specific exception for the ISA) in order to avoid an edit war. Jimbo has made a comment suggesting this as a possible option for approving changes in policy. Any thoughts on this? —Remember the dot (talk) 22:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LocateMe

There is discussion in a number of places (e.g. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#LocateMe bot WikiProject Geographical coordinates and here) as to whether Template:LocateMe should be placed on the article page or the talk page. 540 articles have been tagged with this template to date (e.g. User:SatyrBot/Project log 31). If you're interested in whether & when nagging templates can be placed in the article space, please consider adding your thoughts at Template talk:LocateMe. --Tagishsimon (talk)

WikiProject talk page templates

There is currently a plethora of options for the Wikiproject talk page templates from the small option, to several Wikiproject banner options, to pages with just the plain banners. When an editor created the {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} option he/she stated that he implemented it in banners but only after asking each WikiProject if they supported it. Now other editors are adding the option to every WikiProject banner without discussing it. Also there is the question of whether editors who have not contributed to an article should insert their preferred template. I think it's time to discuss this a little bit to reach some consensus. Personally I prefer this simple template:

and I'm extremely active in WP:NBA. In my opinion talk pages aren't billboards for WikiProjects. There are a lot of people who don't like the clutter, or the small option. I think it's important to bring it up here, because it seems like the only discussion going on is mostly among WikiProject members and I think (in some cases at least) there is a COI issue there. Also there are now so many options for displaying the templates and some confusion as to how each page's templats are decided upon I think it could use some discussion. If we could discuss the process that a system for each page is decided upon, I think is that would be great. I think the consensus is that if you haven't contributed to an article you shouldn't change the template system to your preferences, and that a change should be discussed on the talk page of each article first.

Here some relevant discussions: here, this whole page is relevant:Template talk:WikiProjectBanners, and here among many others. I want to get the opinions of the general community as well as the people who have worked hard on these templates and the WikiProject members, as it concerns them as well. Quadzilla99 00:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And to clarify a little bit, the consensus seems to be that no "shell" needs to be added to an article if there are only one or two projects that tag the article. If there are three or more, one of the options is often implemented.
The three options that I've seen are a) hide all project banners: {{WikiProjectBanners}} b) hide all non-essential tags: {{Hidden infoboxes}}, and c) hide the banners except for one line each: {{WikiProjectBannerShell}}. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 00:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I personally prefer {{WikiProjectBannerShell}}, but more then all, I want an agreement on what we are gonna do. It's a tad annoying to have all these various methods. There is also a gigantic amount of duplicity in in project banners in general, perhaps it's time to tackle that as well. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 00:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. can't we have some sort of "autocollapse" like we have for Nav boxes when there are more then 2 ? --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 00:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also as I discussed with Satyr before if the BannerShell could have an option to display as the banner above does I think that would be great. If the user doesn't want to see all the banners they chould have that option. I think that would be near perfect. Quadzilla99 00:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I, for one, appreciate the flexibility of {{WikiProjectBannerShell}}. When you open a {{WikiProjectBanners}}, it's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. Additionally, a nested style doesn't take up too much space, and gives the project ratings. {{WikiProjectBanners}} has no such functionality. I'd be fine with adding a "collapsed" option to WikiProjectBannerShell; it's an easy addition, by the way.
An idea I've had recently would be to standardize project banners (to an extent) so that a project that wanted a banner that did xyz could just make the appropriate calls to the "superbanner." For example, {{ProjectBanner|image=FreeCheese.jpg|enablesmall=no|topic=Cheese|class=yes|importance=no}} would give a standard wikiproject banner with a class rating system and transclude articles to the appropriate category, but wouldn't accept importance parameters. This obviously wouldn't work with some of the more complex banners, but it's an interesting idea. I'm sure people could build on it; for example, if someone added a default-infobox parameter to the superbanner, an article talk page call of {{WikiProject Cheese|needs-infobox=yes}} would result in an article talk infobox that suggests the proper default infobox. Additionally, nested would need take priority over any additional boxes, or would cause the additional boxes to be integrated into the primary template box. I'd think some code would need to be duplicated in {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} (such as the currently-supported blp and activepol) so that the various common (superbanner-supported) boxes would also be supported there. Anyone like any of these ideas? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 00:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One issue that I can see with BannerShell is that it can be somewhat counterproductive in reducing the clutter of wikiproject banners in instances when articles have more than a couple of projects. As an example, the Barack Obama article has been added to six Wikiprojects and when TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) replaced Banners with BannerShell it increased the clutter by quite a bit in comparison to Banners.[16] In my case, it pushed the table of contents off my 1280X1040 screen. --Bobblehead 00:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That brings up my other point editors are changing talk pages of articles they haven't worked on. What is the policy for deciding which banners appear on each individual talk page? Quadzilla99 01:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also I agree that the Shell Banners bring some of the clutter back that's why I like the smaller banner template option. I'd prefer the option to be able to see the templates appear as they do above. Quadzilla99 01:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and wrote the code for a precollapsed bannershell. It's in a user sandbox here: User:Disavian/Sandbox/BannerShell Test2. Is that acceptable? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 01:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't say that I have a problem with TonyTheTiger making the change without having edited on the talk page before. It's just a function of being bold. I do, however, like Disavian's modification to the bannershell template better than the current version. --Bobblehead 01:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why, thank you :) and I wrote it in record time, too! —Disavian (talk/contribs) 01:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see the point of Disavian's version, though I totally admire his ability to whip it together like that! The point of BannerShell was to combine the functionality of {{WikiProjectBanners}} (which reduces the clutter) with the need of WikiProjects to at least have their name out there. Having it collapsed reduces it to the same thing as WikiProjectBanners - projects are hidden. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would make me happy Disavian, however I started this as more than just a way to satisfy myself. I hope we can keep this going and reach some consensus. I would say that if you're not a contributor to a page you shouldn't insert a different banner style (especially on a well trafficked page) until you comment on the talk page first. Also there are still some pages using the small option, I would think that should apply for those talk pages as well. If there are no banners or small optioned templates on a talk page it should be fine to format them in your preferred style. But if an editor has inserted a style that it should be discussed first and in particualr if you're not an editor to a page you should'nt sytematically format pages to a certain style. Also what to do concerning the fact that we have some pages in small option templates, some in the form of the Banner above, and some in the Shell format is something that should be discussed as well. Quadzilla99 01:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why does there need to be two related templates at all? Disavian's modification seems to make having two separate templates obselete which is a win-win situation if you ask me. It gives editors the option of having the names of the wikiprojects visible, or to hide them completely if that is what they want.:) --Bobblehead 01:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) One point I'll make is it seems like many users want the option of not having to see the banners and opposing that I think reveals a little COI. Why is it so important that the option of not seeing the banners be taken away from people? Quadzilla99 01:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, all of the methods being discussed (with the exception of the small option) give users the option of not seeing the banners; the question, as usual, is what the default should be. Kirill Lokshin 01:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Shell option can't display as the template above does currently, there's a new one by Disavian that would do that. Also I think we need to make clear how it's decided on each page what system to use. I guess it's done on a page by page basis and that discussion should be done first, particularly if an editor has inserted a certain style. Am I correct? Quadzilla99 02:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict with last two above)A couple of opinions, from what might be one of the worst offenders for placing banners on articles he hasn't worked on.
(1) I am aware of any number of banners I have placed on articles (generally Saints, Biography, and 1.0 Editorial Team) where I have not worked on the articles. In these cases, however, I believe that the banners have been validly placed, because
(1) the Biography banner often indicates whether an article needs a photo, which generally isn't already known there,
(2) the Saints banner (with some argumentats, admittedly) is being added to articles which I hope, one way or another, will all be shown on the Portal:Saints in one capacity or another, so that they will get some attention they often might not otherwise, and
(3) the 1.0 banner hopefully will reduce the number of existing banners for the WPCD, v0.5 and successors, core topics, and so on.
(4) many of the projects have article lists, which can then be used as the basis for determining what changes are being made to articles. I have reverted vandalism to Martin Luther several times already on the basis of that article being included on the Saints project list.
(5) often, the person placing the banner is doing so on the behalf of a comparatively new project, which is specifically intended to deal with articles of that type. In that case, the editor placing the banner may be doing so on the behalf of the majority of the people who have worked on the article already, but doing it in their stead.
On the basis of all of the above, I find that the question about whether an editor has contributed to an article should determine whether they can place a banner is probably not the best one.
Regarding some of the other points:
Personally, although I value seeing in the "nested" option the existing quality assessment, I would think that they, tending to be relatively consistent, may in a sense be less valuable than seeing the various importance assessments, and would greatly value being able to see them in the "compressed" version.
Lastly, I wonder whether it might be possible, in some way, to try to create in some cases a "subject area" banner for several similar projects. Certainly, the Jesus article would probably technically fall within the scope of some several dozen projects, most of them being Philosophy/Religion and Middle Eastern. If we could create a version of the Military history banner, with "tabs" for the various, in this case, Christianity/Judaism/Islamic projects out there, that might also help reduce clutter.
Otherwise, I rather prefer the "nested" option, and would add it to more banners I use if someone could show me a simple version of it I could copy to other banners. John Carter 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The point I'm making is a lot of these changes are currently based on personal preferences or personal views. At the very least I think these changes should be discussed first except in cases of obvious errors. Do you propose these changes first or do you just make them? Also if an editor reverts them what is your course of action? I'm asking this to mine your opinions and experience not to be confrontational. Quadzilla99 02:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. Generally, I only add a banner if the article is already clearly in the scope of a project, either through categorization or inclusion on a wikipedia or reliable outside list. In those cases, it's kind of hard to question the inclusion of the banner, except when people question the initial categorization. In those cases when that isn't the case I try to add text to the article to indicate the justification for the new category and banner, preferably with a reference to indicate that I'm not being weird. Generally, there's no need to propose those changes, as the articles are, more often than not, not featured articles in the first place. In one case recently, regarding a mythical Scandinavian king whose name I can't for the life of me remember, someone removed the categorization and banner despite the fact that the existing text indicated the subject's extant feast day. He commented on the removal of the category and banner, and, when I discovered it, I placed my response regarding the feast day on the talk page. Once in a while, doing some things for national based projects, once in a while someone questions a banner, but generally not very often. In most cases, though, I regret to say, I probably don't myself notice on way or another. John Carter 03:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm not being clear John, what I'm saying is in regards to changing from banner templates to banner shell templates and from small optioned templates to bannered templates. I wasn't speaking specifically as to what WikiProjects should have their templates on a talk page, but the formatting of the banners. Who decides what and so forth particularly when several styles are currently considered acceptable. Let's say I come across a talk page and all the banners are in the small option and so forth and I want to put them in a banner or vice versa, etc. Quadzilla99 03:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that is not at all my field. Sorry. Generally, when I add banners, they're more or less the first ones on a given article. As such, I don't "compress" them into any of the banner templates, because there aren't that many to compress. My apologies for having not understood the question. John Carter 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The code you add to a banner to enable the nested option is shown on Template talk:WikiProjectBannerShell#"Nested=". —Disavian (talk/contribs) 02:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the info. John Carter 03:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I just make the changes. If someone reverts it, then I either just shrug and move on, or ask for opinions on the talk page. I personally don't think regular editors have any more say than a one time editor and there is always the option to revert the modifications if someone doesn't like it or complains about them.. --Bobblehead 03:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I still think stronger guidelines for banners and how to use banners would solve the bulk of this problem. -- Ned Scott 03:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, as indicated above. The problem is how to make those guidelines enforcable in the current system. John Carter 03:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking about creating such a template for a while. If you need a bot operator to make the merge happen and there is consensus Ill gladly make the bot run. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 05:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're speaking of the one Disavian created correct? Quadzilla99 05:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that one standardised container needs to be decided upon. Those of us who write automated tools can then move to support that template (whichever it is) whereas at the moment it's not clear what we should be doing. --kingboyk 14:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I might make a proposal there, I've noticed the Military history banner. Would there be any way to reformat a "generic" banner such that, for the less complex projects, it would say something like:
"This article has been assessed at "B-Class" on the assessment scale by the following WikiProjects:" and then have "drop-down" tabs for the projects who have done so, possibly with the little icons included next to their names? I know NOTHING about the logistics involved, and apologize if what I propose is unworkable, and know that some like Military history and Biography are probably too complicated to be included, but if the various projects which might be involved could agree to a standard list of category options included in the template, then maybe all that would have to be done would be to insert the name of a particular project for an assessment to take place. Provided, of course, that anything like that is even remotely workable. John Carter 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be technically possible, but there are a number of issues with such a design; the most obvious is that while quality ratings may be consistent among projects, importance ratings are not, so the template would need to support separate ones for each project. Frankly, I think the difficultly of actually using such a template would outweigh the net space gains.
(Shameless plug: WP:WPREF would result in a more limited, but still sizeable, consolidation of banners.) Kirill Lokshin 18:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am late getting to the table. I apologize for any issues with my editing of Talk:Barack Obama. I have been the leader of WP:CHICOTW. This has grown into a role as leader of WP:WPChi. I just created Category:Chicago articles by importance & Category:Chicago articles by quality and am going about setting policy for assessment at WPChi. My first order of business was to make sure that the 5 inaugural top rated articles (Barack Obama, Michael Jordan, Sears Tower, Wrigley Field and Chicago) had clean talk pages. I decided to follow the BannerShell format I noticed on a recent page. I endorse BannerShell over Banners, but will go along with the majority consensus since I am new to talk page debates. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 20:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry for coming late to the discussion and for limited participation (my house is flooded). I prefer {{WikiProjectBanners}} because it is the cleanest, most of the Project templates are just cluttering talk pages making them hard to use, and few Projects help maintain the articles they tag. I disagree that banners should not be used at times when there are only two projects; some of the WikiProject Banners are SO massively ridiculously enormous and convoluted, that at times, a banner is needed when there are only one or two Projects. And, regular editors to an article should be able to decide via consensus if they want one or two massive Project templates hidden. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sandy has a point. The more I think about it {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} is redundant because quality does not differ across projects. If it could be changed to show importance it would be more useful. {{WikiProjectBanners}} is probably better until such time as space clutter through redundancy can be eliminated. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 17:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Au contraire - quality does differ between projects. WP:Film is rating entirely different things than WP:Bio, which is different from WP:MilHist.
And as I stated above, {{WikiProjectBanners}} entirely defeats one of the main reasons projects put banners on articles - to recruit. Without recruiting, projects die. If the banners are hidden, casual readers (the ones projects are trying to recruit) don't see them at all. {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} was created to mediate between hiding the banners altogether and showing all the full banners. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(added) The banner for a particular project can opt to show the importance as well as/instead of the quality on its one-line summary. Let me know which banner in particular you're interested in doing that for and I can make the change. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Update Currently a couple of dedicated editors are actively inserting the shelled format into talk pages all across the project:[17][18] I'm not saying this is right or wrong I'm just bringing it up. Quadzilla99 01:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak for others, but I've been working on this for weeks and have a list of articles with more than four banners where the banners have the nested option. Is that a bad thing? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well basically you're converting all the talk pages to a new format. There are some people obviously who still prefer the old banner format. I'm not going to comment on it but I thought it merited mentioning as it's definitely related to the discussion at hand. Quadzilla99 04:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And to be fair, other users are actively inserting {{WikiProjectBanners}} into talk pages all across Wikipedia. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you provided the wrong diff as an example, that one doesn't support what you're saying. Quadzilla99 06:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I agree with SatyrTN, the original {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} seems to offer the best compromise. Вasil | talk 18:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that when WP:Films was presnted with the "already taken decision" to hide WP Banners, our consensus has been Shell because of recruitment needs, easy visual check of class and of projects involved. So if we stay on the general principle that hiding project banners is for when more than two projects claim the article, Shell is our preference. I have also argued that clutter has no meaning in talk pages where there is no talk, as is the case in most of films stubs. Maybe this could be given further thought here. Hoverfish Talk 19:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course WikiProjects like them (duh), they turn talk pages into billboards for their projects like the OP said. That's the basic thing people keep saying, I don't like the shells/nested junk let's keep it simple and not take away the option to hide the stuff from people. Also Hover don't act like you talk for a large group of people your vote/opinion is that of one person. Tayquan hollaMy work 00:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject reform#The scope, regarding WikiProject scopes getting off track. I think a lot of stuff can be cleared up by better work load distribution and less redundant tagging, and the WikiProject scope is in the center of that. -- Ned Scott 00:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what's going to happen? I like Disavian's option. Tayquan hollaMy work 09:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to bring here what was discussed by a few only members in WP Films. The first discussion is here: Template talk:Film#Small alteration to your banner. There were 5 members including me, one was for Satyr's proposal, the rest expressed some doubts. Then there is the second discussion here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films#Another Banner Question, where only Nehrams and me took part. Even this was no vote or poll, but opinions we were asked for. I still think that if you don't use the nested option and you hide all (including maintenance templates) you will slow down the development of film articles and the participation of new members. I do not say this as an opinion, but out of knowing what is going on in WP Films. When I first joined there was only a handful of active members. Now it's full of life and part of it is some new members who like to go through thousands of articles, look for missing things and place a maintenance tag in the talk page. Having in mind the banner issue, I tried to discourage creating new templates and adviced just placing a category in the talk page. But no, they want the template and they are happy with it. I don't know why. I let it up to you. Hoverfish Talk 13:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an active member of both WP:GEORGIA and WP:ATL, let me say I was pleasantly surprised when Disavian's code to support nesting under {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} was added to those two templates. It is a perfect compromise: the names of the WikiProjects are still readily visible, but it greatly reduces the clutter on a page such as Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr.. It should be the default standard. -- Satori Son 01:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well call me Captain Obvious but that's clearly disputed above by multiple users, a strong desire by editors to take away the option of not showing the templates is a little telling to me. Quadzilla99 22:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest CSD U4 for chat pages

I have proposed to add a new rule for speedy deletion, which will cover all user and user talk pages which are devoted exclusively to communicating with other people about topics nothing to do with Wikipedia. It's hard to quantify that, but for something like "Hey Pikeyboy, Where R U? OMG WTF BBQ SOS" (which I tagged for deletion just now), I know it when I see it. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Suggest new criterion for chat pages.

Image attribution under CC-Attrib license

Under Creative Commons Attribution license v 2.5, the sharing and remixing are allowed under the conditions of attribution: "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work)." (quoting from the license text).

So, if a photographer has specifically asked that any display of the photo in any publication should bear her name in the credit line, shouldn't we include such credit lines in the photo captions in Wikipedia too?

Suppose Image:Example.jpg has been uploaded by user X, and released under CC-Attrib, with instructions that any display of the image should credit the photographer explicitly in the credit line as "Photo by:X". When we add this image to an article, shouldn't we use this? :

[[Image:Example.jpg|thumb|Example image caption. Photo by:X]]

I've been trying to get many photographers involved and take photos of under-represented countries and locations (such as Bangladesh), but many of them have replied that they'll contribute CC-licensed content ONLY if proper attribution is made. As a comparison, regular news media almost always provide explicit attribution to the photographers in the photo captions, and so does most encyclopedia (example from encarta).

So, shouldn't we always provide proper attribution to photographers in the credit lines if they ask for it under CC-Attrib? --Ragib 21:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, which is why I'm pretty sure CC-Attrib licenses which place demands on article content to include certain things are not allowed. However, a requirement to credit the image can be met by placing it on the image description page, which has to be done anyway. Only if it explicitly must be mentioned in the caption does the problem come up. -Amarkov moo! 21:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but CC-Attribution v 2.5 is one of the licenses allowed in Wikimedia commons. The "not-allowed" bunch includes the ND-NC ones, and I'm not talking about those. I'm referring to the "allowed" ones like CC-Attribution or CC-by-SA, and a photographer is definitely allowed to request attribution in
Also, is there any policy from the foundation that says a CC-Attrib/ CC-by-SA image is not usable if the photographer requests a small credit line in the caption (i.e. "the manner specified by the author or licensor")? --Ragib 21:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I'm pretty sure there is a policy that places restrictions on licenses such as that, but I can't remember where I saw that. So if you're looking for a definitive answer, I can't help you. Sorry. -Amarkov moo! 21:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) My viewpoint as a Wikipedian photographer is that attribution is not necessary in the captions as the user can click on the image and acquire the source information from the description page. Such is not possible on Encarta or varying news media. I have begun only uploading attribution-required images after I spotted one of my images on a news website and was a bit perturbed about for-profit industries using my work without attribution, but by no means do I expect to have my name plastered on every article using my images; and frankly I think if a photographer wants his name on every article, he can stop contributing to Wikipedia and we'll find someone more willing to cooperate. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 21:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, you can't always get "Someone else" to take photos of distant locations which are quite under-represented in Wikipedia. I've been getting in touch with many people and trying to get them involved in photo content generation for commons (such as, of Bangladesh), but the most common thing requested by the photographers is attribution. Since the license allows the photographer to request that explicitly, I would like to see a definite policy that allows violation of the license, or the non-usability of such images. Turning away people who generate rare photos is not a good solution. Thanks. --Ragib 22:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No policy could possibly allow violation of copyright. Even if, for some bizzare reason, people supported that, the Foundation would step in against an illegal policy. And people are indeed allowed to demand attribution however they please, if they have the copyright. -Amarkov moo! 22:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well but if they retain the copyright then the image can't be used here. I think the question is, if it's released under CC but contains the stipulation that attribution must be given proximate to all manifestations of the image... that is, in the viewing field of anyone viewing the image, e.g. on the same web page, next to the image, without leaving the page being needed to see the attribution. I think that is probably what these photographers are asking for. It's certainly reasonable to want everyone seeing the image to also see the attribution, rather than the few percent of viewers who go the actual image page. We do not do this now. Can we? I don't know. Should we? I don't know, but I don't see why not. Herostratus 23:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I don't see why brief credit lines shouldn't be used (they might be legally binding too, if the authors ask for them). The problem gets complicated as content is released under CD or print form. I looked into the SOS Foundation Wiki CD, and the photos there are not clickable, so no attribution for the photos are present. Creative Commons Attribution license is very clear: if the authors ask for attribution, you HAVE to give it in however form they want it. So, if someone asks for attribution in the caption in a reasonable manner, I don't see any way we can prevent that without legally violating the license. The commons and wikipedia image policies do not prevent any such requests for attribution, nor do I see any reason why we should discourage photographers who are eager to release CC-licensed images, but ask for reasonable attribution. Thanks. --Ragib 00:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, should I assume it is ok to add credits to captions, per CC-Attribution license, as discussed above? --Ragib 20:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. Anyone know if this is allowed under policy? It's certainly something that hasn't, as far as I know, been done; and I fear that attempting to do it would result in it being edited out. It should certainly only be done if the license makes an explicit stipulation that attribution "must be given in the image caption, if any" or somesuch. Otherwise atribution on the image page may be assumed to be sufficient. However... if the license requires that attribution must be given proximate to all manifestations of the image (e.g. in the image caption), then it may well be that this is too restrictive for us to use the media. Where's the limit? What if the stipulation was ""must be given in the image caption, if any, in a font at least three times as large as that used for the caption text" or whatever. That would be overly micro-managing our presentation. It may be that requiring credit "in the image caption" or whatever is similarly overly micro-managing our presentation and can't be accepted. Anyone know anything more about this? Herostratus 03:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm ... like Amarkov, I don't see how any policy or consensus can go against a license, which is a legal document (i.e. if someone requires attribution as part of image caption, no policy/consensus can say that won't be given). --Ragib 04:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Wee. The Creative Commons totally non-binding "human readable text" confuses people yet again! What actually matters is the license text:

4.b. If you distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly digitally perform the Work or any Derivative Works or Collective Works, You must keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and provide, reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing: (i) the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied, and/or (ii) if the Original Author and/or Licensor designate another party or parties (e.g. a sponsor institute, publishing entity, journal) for attribution in Licensor's copyright notice, terms of service or by other reasonable means, the name of such party or parties; the title of the Work if supplied; to the extent reasonably practicable, the Uniform Resource Identifier, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work; and in the case of a Derivative Work, a credit identifying the use of the Work in the Derivative Work (e.g., "French translation of the Work by Original Author," or "Screenplay based on original Work by Original Author"). Such credit may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Derivative Work or Collective Work, at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit.

As you can see what is actually required is attribution which is ... "reasonable to the medium or means", "implemented in any reasonable manner" and "at a minimum .... comparable". In our medium, we provide attribution in a one-click away form. This is reasonable because it prevents the primary work page from being flooded by an endless sea of names, some of which may be intentionally offensive, but still we can not avoid crediting them in a consistent manner other than to reject such contributions entirely. ...and with a minor change to our terms of service we could wave attribution for works under Creative Commons 2.5 and later entirely. The addition of inline credits for images would create a number of ugly results, such as creating a concern that people are only contributing for the purpose of self-promotion, and inequitable attribution for article text which could only be addressed through an unsustainable addition of every editors name to the article. I suggest we instead create a second talk namespace called 'Credits' which is automatically populated with image attribution license data, and where interested editors can maintain a list of authors of an article. This would allow for fair, and intuitive, attributions for all parts of our pages. No automatic system can be expected to accurately credit text authors, but since we've mastered a million other maintenance tasks, maintaining a credits page should be no problem. --Gmaxwell 05:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NSFW

The other day I was talking to an elementary schoolteacher (in the U.S.) who mentioned that she likes to use Wikipedia with her students. I warned her that she could get in trouble for showing the kids Wikipedia. I mentioned that the woman article had a photograph of a naked woman on the top. (It's gone now, but man still has a naked guy on the top.) I also could have gotten in trouble had I clicked on a "woman" link at work rather than at home.

That got me thinking: I understand the "Wikipedia is not censored" mantra. But shouldn't there also be a "Wikipedia is not intended to get you fired or suspended from school with surprising 'not-safe-for-work' (NSFW) content" policy?

This is not the same as prohibiting indecency, as has been proposed. This is not the same as age-rating our pages, as has been proposed. This is simply about preventing people from accidentally getting into trouble with NSFW images, just like we use the spoiler template to prevent them from accidentally learning the result of a mystery novel.

Fark.com has a good NSFW policy. Basically, any picture as risque or moreso than something you'd find in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is NSFW. The same goes for graphic content (described as "Images that would make many people feel ill or uncomfortable") and graphic text.

Fark users are allowed to link to NSFW content but must warn that it is NSFW. They also cannot post NSFW images on Fark pages. Fark does not condemn NSFW content (in fact, its users seem to revel in it); it simply recognizes it can get people fired.

Yes, I know that in an ideal world, or some people's ideal world, we would all be totally accepting of everyone's bodies and sexuality, and no one would be hung up about those things. But most of us don't live in that world. In most of the English-speaking world, it is considered inappropriate to have pictures of naked people on your computer screen at work, and doing so can get you in big trouble.

I think a policy like Fark's may be too harsh for Wikipedia. It would preclude us from even having articles on sensitive topics. I have nothing against Wikipedia having images of sex toys, sexual positions, or whatever, even though those are sure to include NSFW content.

What does bother me is encountering NSFW content where someone may not expect it. The man article is a good example. Another is when Oscar Wilde was a featured article, and the blurb on the front page mentioned "buggery." Not knowing the meaning of that word, I clicked on it, only to find myself at the anal sex page. Fortunately, no one was looking over my shoulder at the time; had someone been, I could have gotten in big trouble.

I recommend a policy along the following lines:

Wikipedia is not intended to get people fired or suspended from school

Wikipedia is not censored, and material need not be omitted because it is indecent. However, we realize that certain types of material can get users in trouble at school or work. Therefore, editors should be sure that "not safe for work" (NSFW) content should only be found where people expect it to be found.

The following material qualifies as potentially NSFW:

  • Nudity (genitalia, pubic hair, buttocks or female breasts)
  • Risque images (as or more risque than the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue
  • Pictures of sex toys or parephernalia
  • "Shocking" images that would make most people uncomfortable, such as bodily functions, gruesome accidents, graphic surgery, and the like.
  • Sexually explicit text.

Note that there is no policy banning any of the above outright. Nudity and sexual content may be acceptable where warranted. It would be impossible to have an article on topics like sex positions or sex toys without including NSFW content. But editors should take precautions to ensure NSFW content is not encountered unexpectedly.

Here are some precautions editors should take:

  • Pages that include NSFW content should include the NSFW template at the top:
Warning: This page contains content that may be considered inappropriate for workplaces or schools.
(This is just an example of a template. We'd have to come up with the precise wording for the template, which would include a wikilink to the NSFW policy. I'd like to see a technical solution in which the reader could click on a link and get a version of the page without the NSFW images.)
  • NSFW images should be placed low enough on the page that a reader would have to scroll down to see them.
  • If editing a page in which a reader might not expect NSFW content, consider if it would be possible to replace the NSFW content with content that is safe for work without sacrificing information.
  • If wikilinking to a page likely to contain NSFW content, make sure that is obvious to the reader. For example, the link buggery redirects to anal sex, so don't include a link to buggery without making it clear that clicking on the link will take the reader to the anal sex page. This can be as simple as using parentheses: "buggery (anal sex) was illegal in England until 1967."

Discussion

  • The problem here is similar to what there is with other proposals like this. You can not define NSFW in such a way that people will not protest that THIS image qualifies too. -Amarkov moo! 03:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I recognize the problem with trying to make this a black-and-white issue with a template, but I agree with the principle that we should not unexpectedly redirect people to not-safe-for-work pages. If we make this a guideline, we don't need to pin down exactly what "not safe for work" means besides "I know it when I see it". It seems like a natural parallel to the fact that, for example, we allow images of penises on Wikipedia, but we restrict the articles they can be added to (quite strongly, with a technical measure instead of a guideline). rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 03:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, but you'll notice that there's no policy which says that must be done. It's evaluated on a case-by-case basis, because that is the only way it can work. -Amarkov moo! 03:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • And I'm not supporting a policy that would mandate a "NSFW" template or anything of the sort. I'm supporting a guideline that warns against surprising users with NSFW content, and this would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis -- and unlike the bad image list, it would only be a guideline, not a technical measure. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would oppose any such policy or guideline. i would merely be siezed on as an excuse for thsoe who do wish to censor Wikipedia. DES (talk) 10:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would entirely expect an article on Man or Woman to have a picture of a naked specimen on it. And therein lies the problem with this proposal. >Radiant< 11:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed with Radiant. WP:NOT#CENSORED is extremely important. While we shouldn't gratuitously use nudity or sexually-explicit material or images, we also should not be afraid to use such in a frank and encyclopedic manner. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree also, although I sympathasize with your situation and think some of your points are valid, inducing censorship of any kind is a slippery slope. Quadzilla99 11:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a fine proposal. We'd just need to put the template on every page - then people couldn't complain they don't like the particular content. And it'd be easier to get editors to stop complaining about how they don't like the content of article such and such. WilyD 14:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • People just need to not look at potentially NSFW articles while at work. While at work, I work on states, roads, and policy... all SFW. At home, I'm much more liberal in where I tread. CASCADIAHowl/Trail 15:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Someone removed these two comments, returned them to the discussion. CASCADIAHowl/Trail 16:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • But the problem is that some Wikipedia articles that you would think are SFW are not. Radiant, being a longtime Wikipedia user, may expect to see a nude photo at man. But I would hazard a guess that no other widely used, English-language encyclopedia has a nude photo of a man in its article on "man." So most users would not expect NSFW content there. And yet it's at the top of the page. Most people would not expect to find a naked woman at pregnancy, but there is one there. I'm as against censorship as anyone. But I don't want Wikipedia to be something that can only be used at home and in private. -- Mwalcoff 01:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually support the proposal in concept, because if it could be implemented properly it wouldn't really be censorship, but I agree that if this were to become policy, pretty soon every article on the Wiki would have this tag on it, which would render it meaningless. I think it would be more effective to just place a little warning somewhere like by the search bar, that says "Please be careful; some of the articles on Wikipedia may not be appropriate for a work or school enviornment." I agree that most new users might not expect to see a naked picture on Man, but when it comes down to it the whole internet is potentially not suitable for work, and Wikipedia is no exception.SpadePrince Talk Contributions 15:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Especially when you consider the fact than random acts of vandalism can arbitrarily render any page very unsafe for work or school, I think Spadeprince's suggestion is better : a site-wide disclaimer declaring the possible inappropriateness of Wikipedia articles. Sancho 15:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm glad you support the concept. I'd think that surely, though, there has to be a way to define NSFW in an adequately narrow way. -- Mwalcoff 22:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • To Sancho - we already have such disclaimers. To Mwalcoff - not really, if you account for multiple cultures. Compare Amsterdam, where a topless woman is not going to attract all that much attention, to Chicago, where that is to my knowledge illegal, and to Medina, where it is illegal for the woman to go without a scarf. >Radiant< 10:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think it's a cop-out to say "X is acceptable somewhere in the world, so we should not warn people that it exists." Some of what Western cultures consider child pornography is considered acceptable in Japan if the lolicon (NSFW link) article is to be believed. Does that mean it should be acceptable here? The fact is this is the English-language Wikipedia, and I would guess that most of our users come from places where it is not considered acceptable to have certain kinds of content on your computer at work or school -- even if it should be acceptable. I am not saying we should censor the content, only that we should help prevent people from accidentally pulling it up if they don't want to. The alternative is to declare all of Wikipedia NSFW, which would be a real shame, since I think Wikipedia can be an excellent tool for work or school. -- Mwalcoff 00:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • You're missing the point here, which is that you cannot meaningfully define "offensive content" in a manner that people would actually agree on, even if you restrict yourself to people from the western world, which also widely varies in moral standards. Aside from that, the English Wikipedia is deliberately aiming towards the entire world, not just the western world. >Radiant< 08:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • I admit that no solution will satisfy everyone and be perfect. But the alternative of doing nothing, I think, is worse. I don't want to get fired for using Wikipedia, and I don't want others to be, either. -- Mwalcoff 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please scroll to the bottom of any page that you see here and follow the "Disclaimers" link, which will in turn lead you to our Wikipedia:Content disclaimer. Uncle G 23:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A good way to avoid this problem is to not surf the Internet at work. --Infrangible 23:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some of us need to look up stuff on the Internet for work. -- Mwalcoff 02:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV - Murder vs killing

There seems to be a bizarre NPOV inconsistency being raised over articles relating to people killed in Ireland. There are (1) victims of IRA / PIRA such as 86 year old Sir Norman Stronge, 8th Baronet and James Stronge; (2) victims of Loyalists such as Pat Finucane (solicitor), (3) “victims” of the British army such as Kieran Fleming; and (4) suicides such as Bobby Sands. There is a vocal and persistent lobby which is pro Irish Republican, many of whom belong to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Irish_Republicanism, which argues (I think) that a death is a killing until somebody is found guilty of murder even when that killing is generally defined and established as murder by law and in the international press. That lobby argues that the phrase “member of the IRA” should read “member (Volunteer) in the IRA” although this is not the consensus reached to date – the consensus was “member” on the first mention and volunteer on a subsequent occasion. They also argue that Northern Ireland should not be depicted with any flag even though the other constituent countries of UK enjoy flags; a different perspective is that the last flag used by the province should be depicted for consistency. Passions run high on both sides of the argument, many leaning heavily on WP:POV and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. In any event, a discussion would be helpful as to when the word “murder” is appropriate, with a view to achieving some sort of consistency. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Now if you believe any of that, you'll believe that the moon is made of cheese!--Vintagekits 16:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Kittybrewster has said is true, but if we could keep the discussion to an attempt to formulate a policy on the murder/killing issue. The victims of the Virginia Tech killings were murdered, although the murderer can't be found guilty as he's dead! Would those who disagree Sir Norman was murdered agree with me?--Counter-revolutionary 17:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • All we need is Mr. Lauder and we will have the set of monarchists who have been invloved in !vote rigging, ALWAYS vote in "lock step" as one admin put it and vote in a "ILIKEIT" or "IDONTLIKEIT" manner. Pretty much everything your mate Kitty stated is incorrect and the rest make no sense so I cant make out if its correct or not.--Vintagekits 17:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is nothing but a distortion of the facts. The assassination of Stronge was described as "killing" after a lengthy and protracted discussion, including the insertion of this reactions section which states which media outlets called it murder. Nothing similar exists on the Pat Finucane article as I have pointed out on the talk page, so changing "murder" to "killing" without including a similar section while claiming something like "the Stronge page says killing" is not the same at all. With regard to "victims" of the British Army perhaps you should mention Séamus McElwaine, unlawfully killed by members of the SAS 5 minutes after he was wounded and captured, or countless others who were found to be unlawfully killed in courts of law? One Night In Hackney303 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment as an American, I'm pretty impartial to the IRA/UK issue so here is my thought. Murder is a fully charge and POV loaded word and should be avoid if it can be. However if the independent third party reliable sources (in this case international newspaper that are not Irish or British) overwhelming use the word to describe the event then that is what should be used in the article. AgneCheese/Wine 18:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Words to avoid should address this (and will as soon as I finish here) - "murder" should be avoided unless a conviction has been rendered, or a coroner/other official has used the word. In rare cases, media consensus could override this, but I am leery of that slippery slope. This came up with Rigoberto Alpizar last year. -- nae'blis 18:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment as an American - Minor point, but some American citizens were happy to fund various organisations in NI, even when those organisations were declared illegal terrorist groups. —comment added by DanBeale(t/c) 13:34, April 24, 2007
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter! Are all Americans in Iraq terrorists?--Vintagekits 18:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bringing this up in response to Agne's comment is damn near a personal attack. Please clarify, rephrase, or redact your statement, as it seems orthogonal to the discussion at hand. -- nae'blis 18:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agne said "as an American, I'm pretty impartial to the IRA/UK issue" - I pointed out that it's a non-sequitur. Lots of Americans were funding paramilitary groups -on both sides- in NI. I have no idea how you think that's a personal attack. Dan Beale 17:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The above points were broadly the same as mine with regards to the Finucane debate. A man was convicted of his murder, and as I pointed out on the talk page therefore it would be a simple matter to provide a plethora of independent sources that also used the term. Nobody chose to dispute this, otherwise I would have happily provided them. One Night In Hackney303 18:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the murderer isn't caught it does not mean a murder didn't take place! That's absurd! --Counter-revolutionary 18:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is surely true. Rigoberto Alpizar seems similar to Seán Savage, in that both were killed by authorised government approved people - and therefore the term murder is inappropriate for them. I have no difficulty in perceiving the killing of the Strongs father and son as murder in that it was unlawful, intentional killing. - Kittybrewster (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In that case I'm not sure if you understand NPOV that well. We go by what sources say, not personal opinion. One Night In Hackney303 19:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources - yes of course. Also natural use of language. In the case of Sir Norman Stronge, 8th Baronet there has been rejection by the likes of Vintagekits of the word murder in the lead section, notwithstanding the fact that reliable sources say:
The killing was called murder by multiple media sources including The Daily Telegraph, The Scotsman, The New York Times and Time magazine and also by the Rev. Ian Paisley in the House of Commons and by Lord Cooke of Islandreagh in the House of Lords.[1]
Sir Norman was described at the time of his death by Social Democratic and Labour Party politician Austin Currie as having been "even at 86 years of age... still incomparably more of a man than the cowardly dregs of humanity who ended his life in this barbaric way."<:ref>In the Shadow of the GunmenTime Magazine<:/ref>
Tim Pat Coogan stated in The Green Book: I, "Sir Norman Stronge and his son were shot and their home burned because sectarian assassinations were claiming the lives of Catholics" <:ref>"The Green Book: I" from 'The IRA' by Tim Pat Coogan (1993)<:/ref>. The IRA were quoted in The Times: "This deliberate attack on the symbols of hated unionism was a direct reprisal for a whole series of loyalist assassinations and murder attacks on nationalist peoples and nationalist activities." <:ref>Christopher Thomas, "Ex-Speaker killed by IRA as reprisal", The Times, 23 January, 1981.<:/ref> (The statement did not claim any direct connection between the Stronges and the alleged loyalist killings.)
- Kittybrewster (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The politically motivated killing of a rampant bigot during the middle of a war when Catholic civilians were being murdered in their 100's is not murder in my book.--Vintagekits 20:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And what book's that? I wager no one cares about your book, we care about ref. sources. If you make any more allegations against the Stronges I shall report you. --Counter-revolutionary 20:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thats your whole problem, you dont care what editors who disagree with you say - hence you POV editing. Stronge was killed because of his bad dress sense it was because he front a bigoted rabble akin to the KKK.--Vintagekits 20:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To me POV is saying, as you did, The politically motivated killing of a rampant bigot during the middle of a war when Catholic civilians were being murdered in their 100's is not murder in my book. It is NOT POV for me to say we care about ref. sources. You defamatory comments also show your PoV.--Counter-revolutionary 21:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was Stronge or was Stronge not a Sovereign Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution and a member of the Orange Order?--Vintagekits 21:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and where his murderers not members of the IRA (a proscribed organisation - within the UK, which, in case you forgot, includes Northern Ireland), who took no regret in murdering an 86 year old man with high-velocity weapons and then bombing his home? --Counter-revolutionary 21:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The motivation of certain people is becoming more and more apparent. One Night In Hackney303 21:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my motivation is to express FACT. You'd do well to remember what the facts are. --Counter-revolutionary 21:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm assuming that's why you changed the word "murdered" to "killed" on Pat Finucane then, given he was an unarmed man shot 14 times in his own home in front of his family? One Night In Hackney303 21:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I made it clear on the Talk page that I did that to provoke this discussion. I consider that murder too. --Counter-revolutionary 21:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So you deliberately breached WP:POINT and expect admin to ignore that?--Vintagekits 22:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes obviously. Is membership of the Orange Order justification for unlawful murder of an 86 year old? What “book” does that come from? It sounds POV to me. - Kittybrewster (talk) 21:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is veering swiftly into a discussion of a single article, which should be done at that article's talk page. Issues of general concern regarding inconsistent use of the word "murder" are policy matters, the use of the word in a single article is a content matter. Please stay on topic, and civil. -- nae'blis 21:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Does alleged "political motivation" cause murder to become a killing? - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To lend my two cents: a rectangle is always a square; a square is not always a rectangle. Or... murder is always killing; killing is not always murder. I say that "kill" be used to remain intentionally vague, then devote a section to those supportive of the killing whom term it whatever term that side deems fit to end a person's life; and also the counter-argument which terms it murder. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 22:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, I'd say we should use "murder" in the following cases:

  • Someone has been convicted of the murder.
  • A police official or coroner has ruled the death a murder.

In other cases, neutral terms such as "death" or "killing" probably are better-suited. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both of those are clearly WP:RS. But so are reputable sources such as "Time". Does that justify using the word in the lead section? - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If Time has reported the death as a murder, we could probably reasonably presume that they use similar standards. Unless their classification of the death as a murder is disputed by other reliable sources, yes, that would likely work. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The different is that the republican movement were fighting against a state oppressor - the republican movement did not convict British army soliders for killing there members but it was the case when it was vice versa - there is lies the imbalance.--Vintagekits 22:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not even going to begin to get into the fairness or rightness of the situation, this is not the forum in which to discuss that. While writing articles, however, we use information verifiable through reliable sources, not what we think. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My view is that "killed" should be used in place of "murdered" or "assasinated" in all articles related to the Troubles. Inserting/removing these type of words into articles is fairly clear POV pushing on both sides. To quote WP:NPOV, views should be represented without bias and let the facts speak for themselves. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose my view is that WP:RS takes priority over WP:NPOV. - Kittybrewster (talk) 09:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seraphimblade was bang on the money earlier, when he said murder should only be used if:
  • Someone has been convicted of the murder.
  • A police official or coroner has ruled the death a murder.
That makes it clear cut and narrowly defined, and doesn't allow editors any leeway to add terms based on the opinion of a mere journalist. It's quite possible to still have a reactions section as in the Stronge article. One Night In Hackney303 09:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point, but still feel it is better to have a blanket decision that "killed" be used across the board. At the minute the Louis Mountbatten article states he was killed, despite Thomas McMahon being convicted of murder. It is the same for several other articles in Category:People killed by the Provisional IRA. These inconsistancies will creep in if we don't have a blanket decision. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've no objections to that, just that my endorsing of it might be seen as an attempt to remove murder from a lot of articles. I'm happy with "murder" under narrowly defined circumstances, or I'm happy if it's not used at all except in say a reactions section, but I'm not happy at it being used based on the opinion of a journalist. One Night In Hackney303 09:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I read "In general, a topic should use the most reliable sources available to its editors." I am not sure that coronors' verdicts are invariably available to editors. Natural use of language suggests that Mountbatton was [unlawfully] murdered rather than [sanitised / POV] killed. But he is a good example of edit warring resulting in POV. Why should the WP:RS not prevail as suggested by ONIH and Seraphimblade? Incidentally, I am generally finding this debate constructive and focused which is credit to all. - Kittybrewster (talk) 09:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Acutally I find that offensive, Mountbatton was a leading military and statesman figure who was killed during a time of war - if an enemy juristrication finds a man "guilty" of "murdering" him then it is not a neutral use of the term murder, I would strongly oppose any use of the word murder when it relates to this type of situation. --Vintagekits 09:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, the only edit warring I see on Mountbatten is in the last 10 minutes by two editors who are involved in this discussion, I'd ideally expect them to concentrate on this and see if any consensus can be reached rather than go off half-cocked. The problem with allowing "murder" based on the opinion of a journalist is the vast number of possible sources that could be used, all an editor needs to do is find one journalist who was outraged enough to use the term murder, which isn't difficult especially considering some of the right wing tabloids in the UK. That's why I think it's better off being narrowly defined. On second thoughts, I'm unsure about coroners, for the simple reason that to the best of my knowledge they don't actually return verdicts of murder, unlawful killing is the norm. One Night In Hackney303 09:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, articles shouldnt be changed until this is ironed out. I find it absurd that an Irish republican can be labelled a murderer by the British Government for engaging in an act of war - it goes against everything in WP:NPOV - now if the judgement was from a European court or other neutral body that it should be considered but where Irish republicans are concern the British government and it judicial system are not neutral - just ask the Guilford Four or Birmingham Six.--Vintagekits 10:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/thought: I think its good to have this debate, but couldn't we use legal precedence in defining policy? Any one who meets an end quicker than they should have at the hands of another/s is killed. Only when a court has established who did that and under what circumstances could they be defined as murdered, as there is a convicted murderer/s. I think some may be confusing police terminology, where they may declare a murder hunt, but that's police terminology/policy and not legal outcome of any resulting case which will take full precedent. The ony problem of adopting this fully would be cases of manslaughter, where the killing is unplanned, as opposed to murder where there was both motivation and an amount of planning/fore thought. In applying this proposal to the specific cases of the incidents of Northern Ireland, we could dismiss as POV in articles focusing on singular incidents/people any intentions of either side until a court/coroner had ruled which way the specific/wiki-articled incident was classified? The main/top level articles in addressing the parties involved could claim policies and intentions with suitable references; but that specific articles which relate to killings are not classified as anything else except killings until the appropriate court authority had ruled. Rgds, - Trident13 10:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough points made, however, British courts are not neutral - additionally we went through these arguments when Stu nominated the "Northern Irish murderers" category for deletion - Stu, have you a link to that discussion?--Vintagekits 10:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can't find it, this is a related one. VK, I think it would be best if you left your views on people/incidents to yourself. They're not really relevant to these discussion or an encyclopedia in general. I'm referring to comments like "bigoted rabble akin to the KKK". Also, if someone is convicted of murder then they're convicted of murder. You could call into question any court in the world, but your views that it is illegitimate aren't relevant. Stu ’Bout ye! 10:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Stu, its just when the usual moarchist editors come on and start labelling the republican side "terrorists" and "murderers" then I feel it necessary that there are two sides to every story, its kind of childish name calling I agree and thanks for the coment Stu - noted.--Vintagekits 11:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely agree that nobody should be labelled a murderer without having been found guilty by a court of law. This discussion is about the articles on the victims or subjects of that which the law (and/or public opinion) determines to be murder. I don’t think a reputable source such as ”Time”, “The New York Herald”, “Hansard” or “The Times” would use the word “murder” inadvisedy. They are accepted by this community as WP:RS. If another RS thinks it is not murder, that fact can obviously be included in the article. I am not engaging with VK on his generalising “monarchist” comments etc; better to let him consider the moon is cheese. In the case of Lord Mountbatten I see that even the organisation responsible for the murder (INLA vs PIRA) is contested which seems to me strange. You would think there would be general acceptance as to that fact (whatever it is). - Kittybrewster (talk) 11:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you're confusing "facts" with the opinions of journalists. One Night In Hackney303 11:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No. I am assuming journalists words in reliable sources are checked and approved by a responsible editor. That is the process which distinguishes Time from "whatever". As you say, we rely on sources rather than opinion. - Kittybrewster (talk) 11:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trying to pick up the positive points of this debate, and using legal precedent as a way of defining wiki policy, each of the cases highlighted in this debate are still currently termed unlawful killings by a coroner, and are all open murder cases. The reason the journalists feel legally safe to use the term murder is that the police have already termed it a murder hunt - although its not a murder until a court has ruled it so. I don't see why we couldn't use legal precedence, and still quote journalists claiming a "murder" under WP:RS? If we were to implement this as policy, we would need to expand the article on unlawful killing, and I think add two categories - one on Unlawful killing (which articles could move from once the court had ruled), and one on open murder cases (again, moved from once court had ruled). Rgds, - Trident13 11:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. - Kittybrewster (talk) 11:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • VK, why accept the ruling of the British Courts (who you say aren't neutral) regarding Pat Finucane but not regarding Lord Mountbatten. Is it because you only agree with what suits you?--Counter-revolutionary 11:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where have I commented on Pat Finucane? I think you need a wee lie down for yerself cos yer gettin a bit confused!--Vintagekits 11:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, murder isn't the correct term for the death of a political figure anyway, the term is assassination. One Night In Hackney303 13:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no legal term I can find for assassin at present under UK or USA law. Its a dictionary word used to describe a murder of a prominent figure for mainly political or sometimes financial gain. There is legal definition around the word Terrorist, and most countries have legal definitions of being a terrorsit or committing an act of terrorism. In the UK we have a law on contract murder, which may or may not involve exchange of monies/goods - but that's a charge on the contracting party, not the murderer. People who commit such acts defined journalistically as assassination would still be tried legally for murder - in some political cases, there my be an additional case of treason. Rgds, - Trident13 13:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPOV says to let the facts speak for themselves. The fact is that, for example, Stronge was killed. If the manner of his death is made clear, it's then up to the reader to make their own mind up. One Night In Hackney303 14:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fact that the Stronges and Mountbatten died, were unlawfully killed, were assassinated and were murdered. What is the problem with the word ”murdered” when it is reliably sourced? - Kittybrewster (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's a fact they were killed. Anything else is POV. One Night In Hackney303 15:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The killings were unlawful. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That depends on yer perspective.--Vintagekits 16:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No. They were against the law. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unlawful killing does not equal murder though. One Night In Hackney303 16:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think ONIH is acknowledging the killings are unlawful. Which is step 1. Step 2 is to define the sub-branch of unlawful killing. - Kittybrewster (talk) 17:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a law degree, and I think I'm right in saying Kitty does too, and unlawful killing is murder. This is not a case of manslaughter! --Counter-revolutionary 16:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, an unlawful killing verdict from a coroner does not automatically mean murder. One Night In Hackney303 16:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think law schools everywhere would want you to inform them what it does mean! --Counter-revolutionary 16:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With pleasure! Unlawful killing does not mean murder, simple fact. One Night In Hackney303 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sir Norman Stronge did not die as the result of dangerous driving!!! --Counter-revolutionary 16:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And now, can we please get back to a policy debate? I suggested using legal precedence as a basis for definition of wiki policy. I made a suggestion on expanding the unlawful killing article, and adding two new categories - Unlawful killing; open murder cases. I realise that when applied to certain situations such as Northern Ireland, the emotion and perspective of what is/is not fact can become difficult to debate let agree on. But we are trying to agree a clear policy. I am sure if, using an analogy, Ian Paisley can shake hands Gerry Adams, and look to the future; we can agree a better policy for the definition of terms around the difficult subject of premature death at the hands of another human being - whatever the reasons for that. Rgds, - Trident13 17:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good to me. - Kittybrewster (talk) 17:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have a question or two. If someone is described as being killed and it is made expressly clear how they died, do the facts speak for themselves? Does the changing of killed to murdered really matter? One Night In Hackney303 17:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It clearly does. If it did not, then people would not be so keen to delete the word "murdered" and replace it with "killed". Both perspectives seem to think that "killed" somehow sanitises or lessens the act. I have two questions. Do you think it matters and if so why? Do you agree the killings of the Stronges and Mountbatten were unlawful? - Kittybrewster (talk) 18:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't answer my first question, perhaps you would be so kind as to do so. Killed is a more neutral word, and so is better per WP:NPOV. My own personal opinion on the deaths of two people in a lengthy conflict is not relevant, and you also seem to be forgetting that there's another side of the coin. The lead to Séamus McElwaine currently says killed, despite the inquest returning a verdict of unlawful killing. Do you consider the shooting of an man five minutes after he had been wounded and captured to be murder? How about Bloody Sunday? Do you consider the killing of unarmed civil rights protesters to be murder? Those are purely rhetorical questions as I really don't want to get involved in a debate about the rights and wrongs of any particular incident. Killed is a more neutral word, and providing the circumstances in which a person was killed are provided the reader is able to make their own mind up. One Night In Hackney303 18:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Killed is an easier word to use, and seems to be better for AGF and CIVIL, as well as NPOV. Perhaps "murdered" could be kept for articles about convicted murders; "John Doe murdered " etc? Dan Beale 22:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I broadly agree, except I'd prefer something like "John Doe was convicted of murdering". One Night In Hackney303 22:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, clearly the emotions expressed here in this debate, let alone anywhere else show the terms do matter. But, here's a thought following up on your "is there a difference" question/thought. If there is presently no legal conviction of a murderer, then perhaps in opening para's we should say killing or unlawful killing, depending on the current legal/coroner cases. After that in the main article, we could allow the term murder to be used IF we have either a police murder hunt under way with a reference OR three independent journalistic references complying with WP:RS. In reading some of the articles debated here, the facts in the Sir Norman Stronge, 8th Baronet article punch through personally and I conclude it was a murder; while the Pat Finucane (solicitor) case is written as a murder article from the opening, while the facts alone would punch through as a clear murder case - but the words presently used in the article don't allow any other thoughts or conclusion, except murder. Rgds, - Trident13
Very helpful. And yes, I would say Séamus McElwaine should be changed to "unlawfully killed" based on what ONIH says. And FWIW if the statements made in the Bloody Sunday article are true then IMHO that too was unlawful killing. - Kittybrewster (talk) 20:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit lost here, are you proposing using "unlawfully killed" instead of "murdered"? Aren't almost all killings unlawful to begin with, so it's a bit of an unnecessary qualifier surely? One Night In Hackney303 21:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Stronges and Mountbatten and Finucane were surely murdered. They were unlawfully killed by non-government approved people. The Bloody Sunday victims were wrongfully killed by government soldiers; that is certainly wrong but might be lawful. - Kittybrewster (talk) 21:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'd rather not get involved in discussions about individual examples. What are you proposing policy/guideline wise? One Night In Hackney303 21:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I rather agree. Trident13 seemed to be coming up with something constructive. - Kittybrewster (talk) 21:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity (1) we use legal precedence as the defining policy (2) Until a person is convicted of a murder, the article on the killing is referred to in it's intro section as a killing or unlawful killing, depending on present legal status (3) in the sub sections (which normally firstly give background on the victim, and then a portrait of the incident of killing), we use the term killing or unlawful killing UNLESS there is an ongoing and referenced police investigation under the heading Murder Hunt OR there are three journalistic references which comply with WP:RS (4) we expand the article Unlawful Killing (5) we create two new categories called Unlawful Killing and Open Murder cases, and (6) the opening para uses precedence murder once someone is convicted of the crime of murder. That's the present proposal. We could go a little further and add a category Appealed Murder Cases for those which are being disputed. Hope that clarifies the proposal. Rgds, Trident13
For further clarity I disagree. No British court has the right to label Irish republicans as murderers. If an Iranian government stated that Bush is a murderer should we state that in his article. This issue is similiar to the terrorist issue - to state someone is a terrorist is purely POV just as is murderer in these circumstances. It should be stated as killed or death not murderer.--Vintagekits 22:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We are talking about the victims - not the alleged perpetrators. If Joe Soap is convicted of murder then that is a different issue. If Joe Soap is unlawfully killed in a premeditated manner then the motives of the killer are a matter for the text of the murderee's and the murderer's article. But, e.g., Mountbatten was undoubtedly murdered and there is no reason not to say so. There is sufficient WP:RS supporting that statement. - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dandruff wasnt "undoubtedly murdered" he was killed. I am sure you could find WP:RS sources to say he was murdered but he wasnt he was killed, I am sure you could find WP:RS sources to say it was terrorist that killed him but we wouldnt use that terminology in this respect also.--Vintagekits 22:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, lets test the proposal. (1) legal precedence - if person A walks into country B and kills person C, and is then convicted of murder, then the law which presides is the law of the country in which the crime is committed. I can see that creating some opportunities which I may also disagree with, but it is clear policy and legally correct. Now, you correctly mention mention GW Bush and Iraq as a test: I would add a wiki exemption to legal precedence - we define the murderer as the person who is in the presence and commits the murder, not someone sat a few thousand miles away who defines a political policy or initiates a contract killing. Most of these political cases may journalistically mention murder, but if they are tried in these cases the charges are normally (if ever brought) waging war against country X, and not murder. Rgds, - Trident13
How about this - a US solider is Iraq shoots and an insurgant in Iraq - is he a murderer?--Vintagekits 22:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Some error in the construction of that sentence. But the US soldiers in Iraq are acting with the consent of the present government and has the authority to kill insurgents, subject to various restraints. Thomas McMahon was convicted of murdering Louis Mountbatten in the Republic of Ireland and was imprisoned there. Undoubted murder. You don't like it. - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dandruff was Admiral of the Fleet of the British Navy and the IRA was at war with the British military machine - therefore he was killed during the war - thankfully!--Vintagekits 23:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Test the proposal again - potentially yes, BUT legal precedence would be Iraqi law (killing occured in Iraq), then American and overall UN Human Rights. The insurgent was killed, but if no court brings a case and convicts the soldier of murder then no, it was not murder. The opportunity may be that someone can find three (for example only) Iranian journalists who write that it was murder, but there are also in these cases other journalists who would write that it was an insurgent killing, and WP:POV would take care of the balance between the two sets of sources. We have had cases of British soldiers convicted under British Military law of crimes in Iraq, so the proposal would seem to work. Rgds, - Trident13
VK. McMahon also murdered The Dowager Baroness Brabourne, Mountbatten's elder daughter's mother-in-law (aged 83), the Hon. Nicholas Knatchbull, his elder daughter's fourth son (aged 14), Paul Maxwell, a 15 year old Protestant youth from County Fermanagh who was working as a crew member. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, Mountsplatten killed them himself - Gardai in Sligo told him on a number of occasions not to sail the boat but his arrogance was obviously something he could not control as he swaned around his fornerly occupied territory and he ignored these warnings and put their lives at risk - infact he is a disgrace for doing it - sickens me that someone would use their own family like that. --Vintagekits 23:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Will you two please stop bickering - you sound like an old married couple! - Trident13
"Rubbish" - great comeback! Whats rubbish about it?--Vintagekits 23:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting approach people take. I wonder how VK would describe the murder of two Australians in the Netherlands by IRA operatives? --Michael Johnson 00:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where they the targets Michael? I suppose you dont think the Irish people should be aloud to stand up for themselves and fight back against a state that has oppressed them for near 800 years. But just ignore that as it doesnt suit tabloid headlines to get past the sensational.--Vintagekits 09:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Irish can do what they like in Ireland. But even if we allow the IRA the status of combatants in a war, the attack was an act of war against two neutral countres, the Netherlands and Austraia, and a war crime as it involved the cold-blooded killing of two unarmed civilians. If we don't allow the IRA the status of a combatant, it was simple murder. --Michael Johnson 09:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Its a bit more complex then your tabloid statements make out Michael as well you know - Civilians were not the target and as for the IRA being in the Netherlands - if the Netherlands allows British Army barracks to be posted in the Netherlands then are likely to be attacked. Why dont you provide a link so that other can really know what happened that day then we can get back to the topic.--Vintagekits 09:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the IRA shot up a car carrying two cleancut young men with British plates because they thought they might be British servicemen? To me that just shows, at a minimum a careless disregard for human life. So it is ok to shoot up any car you want, anywhere in the world, on the suspicion it might be the "enemy"? And had there been sufficent evidence, I'm sure the participants would have been convicted of murder. As for the IRA, their carelessness probably did them a lot of harm. In Australia they went from being s respectable cause in political circles to anathama. --Michael Johnson 09:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Michael, in a lot of ways you right - it was a terribly botched operation and altough I can speak for others I can say that I am very sorry if an innocent civilians die - but I am sure you will agree that 1. no army can stand by ever operation they carry out and 2. I do not support every operation that they carried out no matter what the motivation.--Vintagekits 09:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this degenerates into another political discussion around the pro's/con's of any particular "conflict" past or present, then it suggests that we should close this debate as inconclusive. I thought we were here to discuss policy, and write an encyclopedia, not debate the particular points of view that any of us happens to personally feel about, or gode others about particular cases from the past. Yes, we may use particular articles to discuss how applying proposed policy may affect certain articles, but its just to discuss how the proposed policy could be implemented. Please post your thoughts about whether we should close this discussion as inconclusive below this post, or agree just to discuss policy from this point forwards. Rgds, - Trident13 09:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Henry Kissinger once said, "a people who have been persecuted for 2000 years must be doing something wrong." Clearly the Irish are not getting it right either.
However the topic is killing -v- murder, let us recall that the the former is easily defined, and the latter term a specific legal term for which a number of things must be true;
  • The act must be premeditated and intentional
  • The act must be unlawful
  • The person committing the act must be of sound mind
  • Someone needs to die within a set period of time as a result
  • A body is not required
Its not an issue of NPOV the difference is simply a legal one. --Gibnews 09:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed. This is not about WP:POV or WP:POINT. Murder is the correct term. Motivation is irrelevant and unproven. And the IRA and their apologists do not represent the Irish people or nation. - Kittybrewster (talk) 10:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed - the POV of the British Government as to who is a murderer and who isnt shouldnt count. --Vintagekits 10:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a danger this discussion will get sidetracked into a debate over the merits of physical force Irish republicanism, when what we are really about is writing an encyclopaedia. I think it better to keep to descriptive terms and to avoid suggestions of pejorative implications (even if the sentiments are ones which the vast majority would agree). "Killing" is appropriately descriptive. "Murder" is descriptive if the context is a legal one. "Manslaughter" should be avoided except in a strict legal context. "Assassination" should be restricted to cases where the person or organisation responsible explicitly claims a political motive. Of course, quotations should be kept accurate. Sam Blacketer 10:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy with assassination in the case of prominent figures like Mountbatten, the Stronges and Thatcher. Murder is the correct term for Finucane. - Kittybrewster (talk) 10:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thatcher was assassinated? Oh no! Yes, I agree on those. Finucane looks like more a case of revenge. Sam Blacketer 10:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could be. But let us keep motivation out of it. - Kittybrewster (talk) 10:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have consensus? - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly do you think the consensus is? Also we're having a discussion to avoid edit wars, so that isn't exactly in good faith. One Night In Hackney303 23:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
She was murdered by McMahon. That is not the same as she died. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, we're not here to discuss individual articles. We're trying to find a uniform approach that applies to all articles. One Night In Hackney303 23:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently there's a bloody discussion going on here. Why was Finucane murdered but, according to her article, Lady Brabourne not? Convictions were gained in both situations and both were civilians. --Counter-revolutionary 23:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually one was a Volunteer not a civilian. Who is the murderer just like who is a terrorist is POV.--Vintagekits 23:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If Pat was a IRA member he was, by your logic, killed in a war - not murdered!--Counter-revolutionary 23:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The articles aren't the same at present, because rather than have edit wars and/or discussions across a variety of articles, we're having a centralised discussion about what terms should be used. So how about until the discussion has come to a conclusion people concentrate on it, and leave the articles be? One Night In Hackney303 23:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Righto, If Pat was a IRA member he was, by your logic, killed in a war - not murdered!--Counter-revolutionary 23:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Therefore anyone he killed wasn't murdered either. One Night In Hackney303 23:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not if they were civilians directly targetted. Besides a war didn't exist. If it did, we would all agree it was the British who won,and if they did, those men would be charged with war crimes! It's a slippery slope of hypothesis! --Counter-revolutionary 23:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to the discussion anyway.... One Night In Hackney303 23:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heading away from Belfast for a second, how would "murder/killing" be applied to the victims of the Munich massacre? Or to the perpetrators of said atrocity who met their ends at the hands of the Mossad? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not really sure, but Mossad are hardly law abiding citizens. I'm still entirely unconvinced that there's a case for including murder unless a conviction has been gained. It doesn't add anything to the articles, it's simply adding a loaded and POV term, and could even be original research on occasions. Per policy WP:NPOV we should let the facts speak for themselves, say who killed them and how, and let the reader make their own mind up. One Night In Hackney303 06:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, murder has much more negative connotations than killing. Barring that its definition varies too much from worldview to worldview, it adds nothing meaningful factually to a discussion. If the circumstances of the killing are clearly written about, people will be able to make this decision themselves. If it so happens that someone doesn't agree with the use of the word murder in a particular article, they will probably edit it out mentally, but the use of loaded language in supposedly NPOV articles reflects badly on the community. If you are going to use the term at all, I think it needs to be framed by whose(goverment or other group probably) view it is. Something like "Convicted of murder in the United States" or "Considered by the UN to be guilty of murder"; that way people can make their own decisions about the efficacy and legal standing of the claim. Under these circumstances I wouldn't even mind having a religous definition of murder used, so long as the argument is not original research.--Shadowdrak 15:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very well put. I agree, the default should be "killed". Otherwise murder should only be used when a conviction was made. And it should state who they were convicted by. eg the Louis Mountbatten article could read - "He was killed by the Provisional IRA, who planted a bomb in his boat at Mullaghmore, County Sligo in the Republic of Ireland. Thomas McMahon was subsequently convicted of his murder in the Irish High Court. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's completely in line with what I said earlier, regarding "x was convicted of murder". as Gibnews and Kittybrewster both agree that murder should not be used unless a conviction is gained, we seem to have reached a conclusion? One Night In Hackney303 18:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
...does that mean it should always be used when a conviction was gained? I think so. --Counter-revolutionary 18:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Easy tiger, let's just wait for a conclusion before rushing off and amending articles. One Night In Hackney303 18:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Death is a state of being (or lack there of), killing is an action resulting in death, and murder is crime based on an opinion of the intent or state of mind of the killer. Even if the opinion comes from a judge or jury it is still a point of view. Why should an encyclopedia be judgmental? It seems that we should report that: (a) the person is dead, (b) the act of killing was allegedly committed by X, and (c) that Y was convicted of murder by jury. To say that Y killed X should be qualified by suspected or alleged unless there was a confession. To say that Y was convicted of murdering X is a fact, to say that Y murdered X is opinion. --Kevin Murray 18:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have reached conclusion (at last!) Just to answer Kevin Murray's point, we write artciles based on fact, which is not necessarily the truth. Fact is referencable - where as POV is not, or uses selected references to "factualise" its point. Yes, a certain person may be innocent, but if they have been convicted of a crime by a court (which again, we may not agree with the structure or process of), but it is a referencable fact. As I said above in this discussion, I may not like this on certain occaions, but it is a procedure which we can use to construct and edit articles. Rgds, - Trident13 20:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that reporting a "murder conviction" is a fact, but stating that someone was "murdered" is expressing a point of view. --Kevin Murray 23:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We generally don't write articles on Murderers, only their victims. See the debate above and the last proposal I made, which states unless there is conviction of a named murderer or three independent WP:RS sources, then murder can't be used in an article - only killing. Are you suggesting an ammendemnt to this proposal? If so, speak up soon because we seem about to close this debate. Rgds, - Trident13
Actually when it comes to the IRA the converse is generally true except for high profile people, we have articles about the killers but not the victims, assuming the killers are notable enough obviously. Also I'll just re-state the consensus as I see it, to make sure everyone else is in agreement. The death of someone will always be referred to using killed/killing/etc, and if someone was convicted of their murder an additional sentence something along the lines of "x was convicted of murder" will be added. Is that correct? One Night In Hackney303 15:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would go along with both of the above as long is it is clearly specicified exactly who he was convicted by i.e. under which juristiction and what type of court, this is very importmant in terms of NI issues. --Vintagekits 15:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with a "conviction only" rule on the use of murder. Also just as a check, we are also OK with unlawful killing with suitable coroners verdict? Rgds, - Trident13 15:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all (if not all) the killings we're discussing are unlawful by definition though, so it seeems an unnecessary qualifier to me? One Night In Hackney303 15:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can see what you are saying, but if we are sticking with legal precedence then normally the coroners inquest is opened and suspeneded pre the murder trial. Hence the dead person would be killed, while the alleged purpetrator would be "alleged that he killed." If we take (without precedence) the UK deaths of soldiers in Iraq and specifically Matty Hull, then the coroner's verdict is an unlawful killing - as would be the same where there was due suspicion but no conviction of a killer. OK? Rgds, - Trident13 16:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Matty Hull seems a good example - I'm happy enough with the addition of a similar sentence to any articles where a coroner's verdict has been returned, so instead of "x was convicted of murder" we'd use something like "the corner returned a verdict of unlawful killing". One Night In Hackney303 16:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Matty Hull was unlawfully killed. Thre are no sources saying he as murdered. Nor was it fratricide. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where is anyone saying anything different? One Night In Hackney303 17:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Reading all of the discussion above, I was struck by one overlooked critereon in this discussion: isn't it the job of a coroner to determine cause of death? I feel that if it can be shown that a coroner made this determination in a case, then the person can be said to have been "murdered". Even better if it can be shown that a police investigation was made -- irrespecive of the outcome of that investigation. Otherwise, the terms "killed" or "died under mysterious circumstances" should be used.
I'm also going to head off a few objections here: (1) Yes, a soldier can be tried & punished for murder -- even if the victim is a combatant; beyond that, I'll leave the specifics to an expert in Military Law to explain the finer details. (2) Yes, sometimes the official process to determine cause of death can be perverted; in those cases, I think it's fair to add either an opposing view or details that suggest a contrary interpretation, e.g., "The coroner determined that X had died due to 'accidental causes' while imprisoned, although Amnesty International claims that X had been beaten to death." Or: "The jury ruled that X had been killed in self-defense, although a description of the corpse by an eye-witness shows that X had been shot at least twice in the back."
And lastly, (3) In the case of remains recovered by archeologists, I think it's fair to call it murder if a qualified physcial anthropolgist says it was murder. However from what I've read, any professional will qualify that statement, e.g.: "it appears that this person had been murdered". -- llywrch 18:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK, coroners only determine if someone was unlawfully killed, or another verdict. They make no decision as to whether the act was actually murder. One Night In Hackney303 18:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No but they could make it ver clear in the obiter. --Counter-revolutionary 18:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually they couldn't, unless they are in possession of information about whether the perpetrator was of sound mind at the time of the killing. One Night In Hackney303 18:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with One Night In Hackney - legally they can't, but they can in commentary make it clear who they feel is the purpetrator/where further investigation should be focused. But, the legal situation would still be an unauthorised killing, which is the term we would use in the article. Rgds, --Trident13 10:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

trivia

B"H

Concerning Trivia-sections in articles. Trivia-sections are preceded by the following announcement: Content in this section should be integrated into other appropriate areas of the article or removed, and the trivia section removed.

I happen to disagree with this, and my argument is as follows.

Frequently the information in the trivial-section is very interesting to the casual reader. Although information from the trivial-section might appear elsewhere in the article, the existence of a trivia-section is actually an asset to any article.

For your consideration, sincerely, Dovid de Bresser, Kemerovo , Russia . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.89.159.36 (talk) 05:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I agree when the trivia is organized in a way that makes sense and renamed to sections not called trivia. So when you read it, it is truly coherently interesting and informative and hopefully well-sourced as well. –Pomte 08:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hear your argument, but I feel that good articles shouldn't need a Trivia section. We are an encyclopedia, and where Trivia listings include facts with references (in which case, they should be in the main article); where as in most Trvia sections, exist a combination "bucket" of singular comments and gossip, most of which are unreferenced or requiring citations. I here your reasoning on it being as easy/quick to read, to which perhaps there is a debate around an article based "did you know" section, could be a route to follow. Rgds, - Trident13 10:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When I first started reading Wikipedia I loved trivia sections, now that I'm a more serious reader I detest them. I guess it just depends what you think Wikipedia is–a cool place to find out random gossip and factoids or a serious encyclopedia. Quadzilla99 10:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When a trivia section is a laundry list, it's inappropriate. When it's just a handful of items each a sentence or two long, and not strongly related to any particular section of the article as it stands, then I say there's nothing wrong with it. The policy that trivia sections should be abolished goes too far. In my opinion, obviously. 207.176.159.90 22:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Is this new thing I'm seeing? I've never seen this "trivia" tag until today. I can find nothing in WP policy that says there should be no trivia. See WP:N, specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:N#Notability_guidelines_do_not_directly_limit_article_content -- "These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other Wikipedia's guidelines, such as those on the reliability of sources and trivia."

One reason I use WP is because you can't get the trivia in normal encyclopedias. The trivia sections in the articles are great, and one could argue that we should have a tag for articles that don't yet have trivia: "This article has no 'trivia' section. You can help by adding a trivia section." I hope there is NOT a new effort to remove trivia; or, to move trivia up into the main article sections, as it will be impossible to go specifically looking for trivia without the pain of reading the ENTIRE articles.

And if a reader doesn't like the trivia sections, they can simply ignore them. They serve a purpose, providing information. This is the WP goal. Gekritzl 20:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliographical lists by subject

Has there ever been a policy-discussion regarding bibliographical lists by subject? The current policies and guidelines don't adress those lists specifically leading to somewhat different interpretations in a current AfD. The basic question that I'd like a clear policy answer on is this: Should bibliographical lists that contain mostly books without own articles be allowed (perhaps best described as a reference section without an article)? Given the unique character of these articles I think it would be a good idea to have a clearly formulated policy answer. Subject bibliographies can certainly be useful (and useful in a very real, non-trivial, way), but, on the other hand, that kind of organization of research material might not necessarily be encyclopedic in nature. Pax:Vobiscum 18:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some subject groups are able to keep fairly good control of these pages, with realistically firm criteria, but there is a tendency for enthusiasts to overbalance the articles with less notable works on their special topic. Perhaps a better approach is to do careful and up to date lists of further reading for articles on general subjects. DGG 07:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Can you give an example or two of which groups have done this well and where their criteria are spelled out? Also, could you tease out your better approach a bit more. I'm not clear on what that would look like.
The problem I have with bibliographic lists of non-notable books — at least bibliographies that are topical rather than concerned with a single author (e.g., List of books by P. G. Wodehouse) or a series of books (e.g., List of Oz books) — is that there are no clear guidelines to stop the "enthusiast" from making it a rather indiscriminate collection of information. In the Afd Pax mentioned, for instance, there are at least several hundred books on the subject from the early church to today, and while clearly not all of them are of equal significance or quality, there seem to be no guidelines to manage the list (WP:RS won't help except in extreme cases). IMO, the best option is to exclude topical bibliographies as stand-alone lists altogether. --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WAP and PDA links

I have been involved in creating a local community web site.

We have started developing a WAP site (a site for use by mobile phone). I did a search for "mobile phone wikipedia" and as far as I can see the mobile phone version wapedia is a reformated version of Wikipedia.

So, although the appropriate place to put a link to our new web "site"++ might be wapedia or several other equivalents, they don't actually have their own information and just take their content & links from wikipedia.

:++(like most wap sites, even the BBC, there is vastly less than the main site - the difference between a newspaper article and a Birthday card!)

So whilst I have put a link on Lenzie as in Lenzie WAP I think the subject needs a bit of discussion:

  1. There is a growing number of users who are accessing wikipedia's content through wap pages for whom a WAP external link should be available.
  2. I myself now have firefox with a wap module so that I can read WAP pages - so presumably many others also have this feature. So what is the policy on a link that most people accessing the site from the web can't read - whilst all those accessing through the wap can?
  3. Assuming links to wap pages are permitted (as I think they ought), what is the appropriate way to create the link?

Bugsy 20:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Call me crazy, but why do we need a WAP-specific website? Wikipedia is laid out with semantic XHTML, and the layout is done entirely with CSS; in theory, a mobile media-type style sheet could be developed and WAP/PDA users could just use the regular site. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Long-term Unsourced Articles

A proposed policy for dealing with articles which have lacked sources for a long period of time. The current proposal is to place the articles in to a "warning" status after a period of time, and then to delete them after another period of time if sources are not added. The purpose of this is to make Wikipedia more reliable and accurate, making sure articles do not sit indefinately without sources, as required by various policies. In short: get sources or get deleted. Paul Cyr 01:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Marked rejected, until someone can show that this wouldn't delete 90% of the existing database. --Kim Bruning 03:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Marking as rejected is premature IMO. Unsourced information eventually being deleted shouldn't be that much of a concern. Verifiability, not truth. If 90% of the existing Wikipedia database is unreferenced...90% of Wikipedia has failed. --OnoremDil 03:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Attributable is not the same as attributed. If you believe something to be unattributable, take it through the normal deletion processes. But if you believe it's attributable, either find the sources or leave it be. --NE2 03:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a wiki project for "Attribution"? (forgive me asking here, but I'm hopeless at searching wiki for wiki information.) Dan Beale 08:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that 90% would have failed. Perhaps we slightly disagree on project objectives. Certainly reducing our database size by an order of magnitude is a rather drastic step. I don't think you will be able to gain consensus for that. --Kim Bruning 03:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the idea has at least enough merit to be discussed instead of being marked rejected by the first user to comment on the issue. (unless this was brought up somewhere else...) I certainly hope your 90% number was a horrible exaggeration. The template was suggesting 3 months before warning, and an additional 3 months before deletion. If sources can't be found after 6 months, why not delete the article? Nobody is suggesting salting them. The stubs can be replaced quickly enough. --OnoremDil 03:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm striking my comments. I still think that the amount of articles that would be affected is not a reason to reject the policy on behalf of the entire community, but there's no reason why an AfD wouldn't be sufficient if an article has spent 3 months unsourced. --OnoremDil 03:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you understand what my views are and what I'm trying to accomplish Onorem. Do you think perhaps AfDing unsourced articles after a certain period of time might be better? I think it would acheive the same goal but create a much bigger process mess. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul Cyr (talk • contribs) 03:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Based on User:Carnildo/The 100, somewhere between 78% and 85% of the encyclopedia would be deleted. --Carnildo 08:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly was very definitely marked as rejected, as I remember. Personally I think it just might be a good idea--but only if a sufficient number of WPedians would devote their efforts to sourcing these articles (my guess is about 75%, not 90%) --the point is to improve them, not to get rid of them. Removal is only appropriate as a/ provision for the ones that turn out not to be sourceable, and b/ an incentive. But it's a punitive incentive--and when it fails, it makes the encyclopedia weaker. I am afraid that the net result for many of the articles would be general sourcing from books found in library catalogs and not actually read. Real sourcing is a good deal harder. suggestion: improve sourcing by subject area, with editors who care and will work in a positive spirit.
and remember that a great deal of hat many of use consider junk would be left in: all the road articles sourced to district maps, and the schools sourced to directories, etc. If we asked for adequate RS sourcing, then it might indeed by 90%. DGG 07:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If we look at basic principles of WP:FIVE, then we are an encyclopedia, and not a random collection of information. Kinda suggests we ought to have a policy in this area, even if a large amount of content is deleted as a result of creating policy in this area - because effectivly these articles do not currently comply with WP:FIVE. Afd as a process for discussion of yeah/ney would seem the right existing process for final discussion of all proposed deleted articles, even if they happen to be generated by any proposed process discussed here. A bot could operate to a set of defined rules searching for articles which are dated outside/above the agreed time scales. There could also be a sub-project for implementation which would pick up on the articles which clearly need to be reatined but currently lack sources. On the times scales, I would say 6months as marked unreferenced, and six month to be tag'd as potential deleted unless sourced, and then to Afd after 12months+. Rgds, - Trident13 09:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely don't think this should be left to a bot. I agree that, in principal, articles that have gone unsourced and un-edited for a long period of time should be deleted... but the decision of whether an individual, specific article should be deleted should be made on an article by article basis at an AfD. Perhaps we need to be a bit harder on long term unsourced articles at AfD... but that is a different issue. I could see implimenting a third option between "not attributed" and "not atributable"... something like "unlikely to actually be attributed".
There are a lot of articles that are not yet attributed, but could be... but we do need to think about the sub-set of these that are "unlikely to actually be attributed". These should go. I have occationally suggested creating an AfD decision called "Delete without prejudice"... meaning that while the article should be deleted as it stands now... it can be recreated in the future should someone requests it and has a plan to fix the issues that led to it's deletion. Blueboar 14:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just for clarity - I'm not suggesting we use a BOT to do the deletions! I'm suggestign we use a BOT to apply the tags 6months/12months in. Rgds, - Trident13 14:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The {{unreferenced}} tag is already dated by SmackBot, see Category:Articles lacking sources from March 2006. CMummert · talk 14:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is a canonical example of an error in thinking made by editors who employ deletion as their sole tool. Please read our policies, including the Wikipedia:Deletion policy and the Wikipedia:Editing policy. Deletion is not the only tool in the toolbox, and there are various things that you, as a nominator, must do before nominating an article for deletion on the grounds of unverifiability. As per the Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Nomination, one of those things that you must do is make a reasonable effort, yourself, to look for sources. If you don't find any, then you have a good case for deletion. (If you do find some, cite them in the article of course.) You do not have a good case if you do not make the effort yourself to look for sources, and your only rationale is that there weren't any cited in the article. Per our Wikipedia:Editing policy this is a collaboratively-written encyclopaedia. Collaborative editing involves helping to improve badly written articles, such as by looking for sources for articles that do not have them and converting unsourced rubbish into well-sourced stubs, not just tagging everything that you come across for deletion. Uncle G 15:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I must have missed the part of the proposal that said editors should avoid trying to find sources themselves. While editors may not use all the tools available, does that really have anything to do with this specific proposal? --OnoremDil 15:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Then you didn't read the top of this section thoroughly enough. Please read it again. This proposal involves editors solely demanding that other people do the work. Uncle G 12:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does Wikipedia "Unsourced" tagging distinguish between an article which has 1) NEVER had any source; an article which 2)HAD sources but someone claimed they were not reliable and deleted them, with the claim disputed, and 3) an article which has long had severl reliable references, but has one or more statements tagged with {{fact}}? It would be a bad idea to ever delete a good article because someone disputed the sourcing adequacy of one sentence in it. Edison 18:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is confusing notability with popularity. Articles do not get to FA because they are more notable than others, but because editors are willing to devote the time and effort. Conversely, an item is not non-notable because a tag hasn't been acted upon within a certain time period. Should a hypothetical article on the 14th Century Economics of Scandanavia be put up for deletion just because we have no editors that can read Mediaeval Swedish (or any that care to read Swedish treatises on 14th Century Economics)? LessHeard vanU 19:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've made a proposal for a new PROD template on the discussion page. It isn't a question of whether people agree with PROD being used for this purpose (since it already has been approved) but whether they think the process would benifit from a special template which also provides articles PROD'ed for this reason, their own category for people to watch. Paul Cyr 23:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of date of birth from biography

An anon has twice removed the date of birth of Nina Bracewell-Smith. I hate edit wars, so am reluctant to revert a second time. However, in an edit summary, the anon wrote of wishing to protect from bank fraud. The idea seems foolish to me. For one, the details are still in the history and for another, the idea that the finances of someone in Britain's Rich List could be threatened by any piece of information like this seems odd. However, I wondered if we'd come across this issue before and if there's consensus. --Dweller 15:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd leave it off since it is/was uncited. (OTOH, if there's a citation for it, I wouldn't feel obliged to leave it out.) -- JHunterJ 15:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
<edit conflict>Hmmm. Curious. Because a cited d.o.b. is more reliable, so more useful to fraudsters, so clearly you're unconvinced by the fraud argument. And surely you're not suggesting we delete all the uncited material at Wikipedia, because if we did... !!! --Dweller 15:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right -- I'm only suggesting we delete uncited information in living persons' biographies if it is contentious, which is how I read WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material. That the contention happens to use the word "fraud" wouldn't alter my reading -- any contention is worth axing uncited info over for BLP. -- JHunterJ 19:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's a potentially valid concern. WP:BLP says, "With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly common for people to consider their exact dates of birth to be private information. When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date." I'm not sure removal is valid in this case, but I thought I'd throw that out there. --OnoremDil 15:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. She's decidedly notable. She's been in all the British national press in the last week or two. --Dweller 15:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is appalling. There's been a slow-motion edit war on that article about the person's date of birth since September 2006, and not a single editor adding the various dates of birth in all of that time has given a proper citation for that information. I've placed a warning to all editors on the article's talk page. The only acceptable way to add this information to the article is to cite a reliable source for it. Uncle G 12:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If the information is readily available elsewhere, then putting it on a WP page is not really letting some security cat out of the bag - someone determined to find it out could get it from the other sources. If it is not readily available, then it shouldn't be on a WP page at all. I'm not really seeing the problem, I'm afraid. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 19:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sacrificing your own sysop bit to desysop one other administrator

I originally posted this at Bugzilla as Bug 9710, but it was rejected as asking for consensus on a Wiki.

By popular demand, I am posting a request to allow administrators to sacrifice their sysop bit in order to take away one other administrator's sysop bit. There are many reasons for this. First, a few administrators, like Wonderfool a.k.a. Dangherous on Wiktionary and Robdurbar on Wikipedia, become vandals and must be taken down ASAP. Second, some public terminals are zombies with keyloggers on them. Administrators who uses such terminals could get their accounts compromised by a vandal. Third, the steep price of losing one's sysop status will keep most administrators from abusing this. Fourth, by pointing the business end of this ability at oneself, it makes an easy way to resign without asking for a steward's help, which might have prevented Robdurbar from needing to go on a vandalism spree. Fifth, someone suggested that this would be a way for wheel warriors to stop wheel wars by themselves.

If this ability is implemented, a log for this type of action must be implemented. It cannot be a standard log, because stewards must be able to process and mark incidents in the log. When the ability is used, a new case is generated. These cases must be differentiated from other cases. The possible statuses (which should only be changed by stewards for reasons below) should be New, Assigned to a steward (which should indicate the steward's name), Forwarded to ArbCom (which would apply only to wikis with Arbitration Committees), and Closed. If the case is a resignation, it should automatically be entered as Closed instead of New in the sacrifice log.

Whenever this ability is used, a log entry must be generated for a steward to look at. The reason that only a steward should process this is that stewards are trusted enough to make final decisions on who should stay desysoped. If it is a resignation, no action needs to be taken. If it is an obvious case like the Robdurbar or Wonderfool cases, the steward can simply repromote the hero who stopped the rogue administrator. If it is a wheel war, the steward will have to investigate the case if it is on a small wiki and decide what to do. If it is on a wiki with an ArbCom, the case should be forwarded to the ArbCom for investigation. After the appropriate actions have been taken (e.g. the ArbCom closes the case or the steward who takes the case makes a decision), the steward needs to mark the incident as closed in the log. If it is decided that later on that bureaucrats should be able to desysop others, then the ability of handling sacrifice log entries should also be granted to them as well.

Of course, attempts to take away a steward's sysop bit should fail and result in no action whatsoever besides an error page explaining that stewards are immune to this, because stewards are required to be able to promote and demote other users.

Jesse Viviano 16:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like an exciting solution to a not-so-huge problem. I think it's creative, but I'm not sure how functional it would be on en.wikipedia.org. I'm concerned it would turn disagreements into a sort of "torpedo-warfare". I'd prefer something simple like making it so a block of an admin sticks and actually prevents them from adminning, unblocking themselves, etc. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not allowing administrators to take administrative actions while blocked is a recipe for disaster on smaller wikis. If a smaller wiki has a dispute between its only two sysops, the wiki could be hijacked if the original owner of the wiki was blocked in this manner. Wiktionary would have been permanently hijacked by Dangherous (who was a Wondefool sockpuppet) if administrators were not able to unblock themselves, because Danghrerous was able to block all other administrators. A developer wouold have had to take much more time to fix the mess. On wikis without developers (e.g. most wikis not owned by Wikia or the Wikimedia Foundation), this would have forced a reformat and reinstall to recover the wiki. Riana unblocked herself during the Robdurbar incident by having a strong enough rationale that WP:IAR trumped the don't unblock yourself rule, so self-unblocking, while usually bad, must be kept to stop wiki hijackers. Any solution implemented must be able to stop rogue administrators and wheel warriors while not allowing any possibility for wiki hijacking. Jesse Viviano 17:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think, to stop this kind of problem, the tool should be made as an extension, disabled by default, and only enabled manually by a developer on larger wikis. Tra (Talk) 18:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The "reformat and reinstall" comment is weird, and seems to be based on a misunderstanding how MediaWiki works (or too much time spent administering Windows computers). MediaWiki is just a bunch of PHP scripts, not an operating system. The computer as a whole is unaffected by who's an admin and who isn't; adminship is just a bit set in a MySQL database. So you don't need to "reformat" after a rogue admin, as long as MediaWiki doesn't have security holes so egregious that an admin could compromise not just the Wiki's content but the computer it's running on; and you don't need to "reinstall" to fix problems with admin bits as long as someone running the server knows MySQL. (This person could be called a "developer".) Wikimedia and Wikia do not control all MediaWikis, they just write the software. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 06:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested before that maybe we could make effective blocking of an admin with the agreement of three other admins, and that this capacity be limited for safety reasons to at most three admins being effectively blocked at a time.--Pharos 16:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would think the easiest solution would be if sysops couldn't unblock themselves, of course should a sysops go on a rampage, they could wind up blocking everyone who tried to stop them, sysops included--VectorPotentialTalk 17:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, which is why I suggested a quota of three admins to administer an effective block to an admin, to prevent just such a rampage. The idea of no more than three blocks at a time would be to limit the remote possibility of more than one admin on a rampage.--Pharos 17:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like the "3v1" method of blocking an admin, coupled with the inability for an admin to unblock themselves. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's an extreme solution to a rare problem. It would work for the Robdurbar case, where an admin wants to damage the Wikipedia as a whole, yes, but I would bet it would be used more often for the unfortunately more standard wheel warring, where admins just have strong disagreements about a few articles or users, and can sometimes be "talked down off the ledge" before being desysopped. If we have this available, too many wheel wars will escalate to this. So let's keep this on the back burner and only implement if admin insanity becomes more common. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I commented on Jesse Viviano's page, this is an excellent idea that cuts down on abuse and encourages resolution of serious admin disputes through discussion and mediation. I do not feel implementation will lead to "torpedo warfare" as from what experience I have it seems more that imminent threat of removal of privileges can pursuade hot-headed conflicting editors to calm down and reassess their actions in a fashion somewhat like that of the Nash equilibrium or Mutually Assured Destruction. It benefits neither editor for them both to be blocked, especially with the prospect of investigation and possible severe reprimand in the case of abuse. The occasions when this mechanism would come into play would be inherently serious and command attention. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 17:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One potential problem with this idea is that it would mean that two bureaucrats, or a 'crat and an admin, working in tandem could desysop everyone else (one to shoot down admins, and the other to repeatedly resysop them). I know that this is incredibly unlikely, but the fact that it would be possible would be something to think about. --ais523 18:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
That's assuming that a bureaucrat would get their bureaucrat status removed as well as admin status when they use such a tool. If bureaucrat status is unaffected, the problem would be even worse because a rogue bureaucrat could just use this tool to de-sysop loads of admins then re-promote themselves in between. You would also need to consider what happens when someone uses this tool against a bureaucrat. If bureaucrat status was unaffected, they could just re-sysop themselves, making it useless but giving admins the ability to remove a bureaucrat could perhaps be abused.
You would only need one bureaucrat, no matter what. The crat just has to: (1) create account (2) sysop account. Then you have 2 accounts, and the crat could just resysop the admin account whenever needed. Obviously admins shouldn't be able to remove Bcrat's status, since by default crats hold the desysoping ability anyway. Prodego talk 00:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for the log, I think just a standard log would be necessary, and perhaps a page on meta could be made for handling review by stewards, arbcom etc. Tra (Talk) 18:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, we could modify the suggestion so that aside from resignations, anyone who loses their sysop bit using this ability cannot be promoted by anyone other than a steward. Jesse Viviano 18:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Off topic: This discussion reminds me a lot of DEFCON (computer game). Mutual assured destruction here we come! --  Netsnipe  ►  19:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bringing the good old days of IRC wars to wikis! What a fun idea. Of course, at some point, someone is going to bring in bots (apprpriately named chanserv and nickserv? Hmmm, no, Articleserv and Adminserv perhaps?) to fix the issues and allow people to actually edit again? :-) And then you'd have a whole new level of hierarchy and bureaucracy. Fascinating. --Kim Bruning 19:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a non-Admin, I have to say that actually - 17mins of proven destructive activity seems a pretty reasonable period in which to spot, assess and stop a rogue admin. Most rogue editors spend 17days+ building up a destructive record, and need four warnings before being blocked. The lessons seem to be that (1) Admins shouldn't be able to unblock themselves, and (2) perhaps a three on one rule seems a better solution to the nuke-on-nuke situation being proposed. But really, when you think about it - how much less than 17mins could we get this procedure, without having a clear track record of destruction to prove an admin as a vandal? An admin has a proven track record and a trusted position within the community - this proposal to me proposes that admins are a dodgey bunch who could turn vandal at any moment. Plus, what happens in the more likely human error level of one poor key stroke, which if read by a singular self-choice-destruct admin could kill your whole account and reputation here? To me, this seems an extreme proposal for a limited volume/low risk activity. Rgds, - Trident13 23:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin on other projects (not here), I'd just like to point out that this conversation is completely insane. If an admin turns into a vandal, you get in touch with a steward and have their tools (at least temporarily) removed. It's bad enough already that being an "admin" has the political connotations on this project that it does... please don't provide tools for "purging". An admin is supposed to be just another user who's trustworthy enough to have access to a few buttons we don't let people have the first day they show up. If a person is no longer trusted, the process of removing access to the buttons should be open to all. --SB_Johnny|talk|books 00:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) This seems like a solution in search of a problem. If an admin has obviously either lost it or had their account compromised, and is going around blocking people for no reason, deleting the main page, etc., you find a steward, they perform an emergency desysop, problem solved. If that type of incident were happening all the time, I could see a need for this, but not just based on a couple of occurrences. Similarly with disabling admins from unblocking themselves-you unblock yourself in a case like Riana did, where the block was obviously without cause, no one in their right mind is going to say you did wrong. You unblock yourself after getting blocked for 3RR, you're very shortly getting desysopped. Again, it's a rare problem and is already adequately handled. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds fun, but completely unneeded, it is a potentially dangerous solution to a not so big problem. Prodego talk 00:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • An easy way in which this can be abused: make an alternative account. Do some useful uncontroversial work for two months, making sure you pass all the irrelevant criteria. Nominate self for adminship. Congratulations, now you have two admin accounts. Use one to deop the person you disagree with on all those articles on that controversial topic. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's a cute idea but not practical. >Radiant< 07:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are we talking about Bureaucrats going wild too, as well? If a Bureaucrat goes wild, it suggests RfB wasn't stringent enough or the community is at fault for developing the consensus to put them there. I don't feel there is a need to overcomplicate things - there are always Stewards around (hopefully). x42bn6 Talk 14:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre. Double edge attack will lead to more problems. Imagine a war between democrat admins and republican admins. We should be encouraging discussion not the contrary. Admins should be avoiding wheel wars willingly. -- Cat chi? 20:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is why I chose a steep price (losing one's sysop bit) in order to encourage other solutions to be sought. If the wheel war goes out of hand, this will help put a stop to it by destroying both wheel warriors' ability to use their sysop tools. The ArbCom will then probably keep both sysops from getting their sysop bits back because using this ability inappropriately during a wheel war means that both former sysops probably were too hot-headed to be administrators in the first place. Jesse Viviano 22:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The logic is fine but I do not see the potential usage of this. If someone needs to loose their sysop, arbcom can take care of this rather easily. It is not like admins need to get desysoped every day. -- Cat chi? 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This would make a good plot device for a science fiction story.
It is far in the future, and of course Wikipedia is still around, but PHP and MySQL are arcane lore than nobody understands anymore. Brion 45, the last of the developers, realizes that without his unique knowledge there will one day be no way to create more stewards. To allow the encyclopedia to preserve itself, he sets up a way for admins to take matters into their own hands by nobly sacrificing their admin bits. He then expires, in an event later referred to as Code Freeze Omega (Wikipedia's trillionth article). Bureaucrats and stewards become the targets of political assassinations, while holographic post-mortem recordings of Jimbo Wales appear occasionally to dispense advice, but even he could not foresee the insidious network of Citizendium loyalist double agents that emerges among the admins...
It would not, however, make a very good Wikipedia policy, or MediaWiki feature, since none of that story is real. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV discussion

There is currently a discussion going on at WT:NPOV (specifically this thread about possible POV in an edit made to the policy in December 2004 and recently disputed. Please comment on the thread linked above. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 04:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External Links guideline

There is currently a heated debate going on on WP:EL about whether the wording should be changed to eliminate the use of the Open Directory Project as an alternative to having a large External Links section in an article. Things have got rather bogged down and it appears that sides have formed. Insightful input at Wikipedia talk:External links as to how to proceed (and which version of the page should stand should no consensus be arrived at) would be gratefully received. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 19:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP project talk page template class parameter

In addition to FA, A, GA, B, Start, & Stub class some templates accommodate Template, Cat, and Disamb class values. Some even allow for a Needed-class. What is policy on having an Image-class for all images within a project falling in image space? Could I request such a wrinkle to the {{ChicagoWikiProject}} template. Also, what is policy on Category:Disamb-Class articles? Should the category exist? Should I populate it? What is policy Needed-class articles? TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plot summary

Is there a guideline or policy on length of plot summaries? I've looked at the relevant bits of WP:NOT and WP:WAF but they're both a bit vague. There's a debate about this here. Totnesmartin 20:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try WP:FICT although you won't find a fixed "no more than X words" suggestion three, either. DES (talk) 21:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Avoid "play-by-play" level of details. Focus on what you need to give basic background and to aid the article's real-world information sections. Additional general summary might be appropriate for fiction with large cultural significance/impact like Shakespeare, Superman, NedBoy. -- Ned Scott 22:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I looked into that before, here's one discussion I found. Quadzilla99 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Never found anything definitive or concrete though. Quadzilla99 22:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not, but it still helps. thanks. I'll point the WPers at this section. Totnesmartin 14:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would say three to four paragraphs at most (and that would be for a long novel with an intricate plot like Bleak House or some sort of epic miniseries). Shorter texts should receive shorter summaries. The problem with most of the plot summaries that I have seen on wikipedia (and I have looked at a lot since I specialize in literature) is that they try to retell the entire story in order. Plot summaries do not have to retell every subplot or follow the order of the original text. Wikipedia's pages on "classic" works, especially, should not begin to resemble sparknotes with a blow-by-blow account of the text. Film pages and TV episode pages often begin to resemble fan sites, in my opinion, when they meticulously relate every detail of a plot. I love Star Trek as much as the next person, but there are trekkie sites that fulfill that purpose and an encyclopedia is not the place for it. Oftentimes, relevant plot points or character descriptions (another thing that should go - character lists!) will enter into discussions of the text's or film's themes. Awadewit 06:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, Awadewit, but I doubt we'll ever see this put in play: there are too many new Wikipedians, eager to show their ability, who don't understand the virtue of economy & swamp the article with too much information. There's the same problem with multiple links to the same article; I guess some writers feel doing this emphasizes the importance of the subject. And if we make it a rule (e.g., "No plot summary will be more than 4 paragraphs"), some Wikipedians will feel called on to enforce that rule, even to the detriment of the article. If you have a simpler solution than to educate each new Wikipedian as this matter comes up, I'd be glad to hear it. -- llywrch 18:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm trying to work the 3-4 paragraph suggestion into the new style guidelines at the novel project right now. You might consider taking a look at the discussion I am involved in regarding the novel template, which deals with some of these issues here. Those are some of the things I'm doing. Whenever I peer review, GAC review or FAC review, I try to encourage economy as well. I'm afraid those are small steps, but the more people I can make aware of this problem, I feel, the better. Do you have any additional suggestions? Awadewit 22:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User and User talk pages

Just what is and is not allowed on user and user talk pages? Can people create new accounts and new user pages at will? Can they put political screeds on their user pages? How about commercials and links to offsite webpages? How in the world are we going to determine a rational policy for this and enforce it? --Ideogram 23:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We already have one, Wikipedia:User page. -- Ned Scott 23:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, looks reasonable to me. --Ideogram 23:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template for articles translated by non-English speakers

Hi, is there a template can be used for articles translated from other languages to English by someone who is not a native English speaker? Some zh.wp user is worried about the quality of articles translated by non-English speakers and might use that template to ask for quality improvements like grammar correction or reorganize the article. Thanks. --H.T. Chien (Discuss|Contributions) 16:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no such template existed, what do you think to have a template like This article or section is been translated by someone who is not a native English speaker, you may help to improve it.?--H.T. Chien (Discuss|Contributions) 16:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TC#Translations and pronunciations has a couple of useful templates. x42bn6 Talk 20:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would appear that {{Template:RoughTranslation|language}} is the one you are looking for. It is the fourth listed per the link provided by User:X42bn6. LessHeard vanU 20:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what we are looking for, thanks. ;) --H.T. Chien (Discuss|Contributions) 09:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Writing Articles

I would like to write some articles em but I am not too good with writing. I haerd that there are people on here who you can pay to write articles for you. Where can I find them? Gatorphat 17:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here. Quadzilla99 17:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What to do when terminology differs from one country to another

I am working on a group of topics in which the terminology varies dramatically from one country to another. The biggest and most controversial example is the definition of the term "Learning Disability" as used in the US as compared to the UK.

In the US, the term is used to mean a specific difficulty with learning that is unexpected given the cognitive ability of the affected person, for example, a specific difficulty in learning to read where the person's overall cognitive ability is intact and in the normal range. In contrast, in the UK the term is used to refer to severe cognitive deficits (the old term for this in the US is "mental retardation").

Clearly, this could cause confusion in readers, and could even be terribly offensive to some people coming to the article for information.

Are there guidelines somewhere regarding what do do when the term relevant to a topic varies dramatically in different English-speaking countries?

Thanks in advance for any help,

smoran 19:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, follow the procedure in Wikipedia:Disambiguation. Jesse Viviano 19:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

We need a standard for adding references into articles. It should be
a) Jimbo is the founder of wikipedia.<ref>www.wikipedia.org</ref>

which produces:


Jimbo is the founder of wikipedia.[2]
or b)
Jimbo is the founder of wikipedia<ref>www.wikipedia.org</ref>.

which produces:


Jimbo is the founder of wikipedia[3].
Should the citation go before or after the period? I think it should go after because it makes the sentence look cleaner. This isn't in the Manual of Style so I bought it here.
Thanks! WǐkǐɧérṃǐťTalk to me or learn something new! 23:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You will find this covered in WP:CITE. DES (talk) 23:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! WǐkǐɧérṃǐťTalk to me or learn something new! 23:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Contributor's name in image title: self-promotion?


Is there a policy on image-naming conventions that would settle whether it's permissible to include the name of the author and contributor of an image in the image's filename? The author/contributor in question is also a Wikipedia editor who uses his real name as his userid, and includes this name in the image's filename, so that the filename for a picture of a Corvette, for example, would be Corvette_by_[User's]_[Name].jpg .

I AGF, but also wonder if the purpose might not be self-promotion: a Google search on the editor's real name returns hits for the image files on Wikipedia precisely because the author has included his name in the image's filename. I note that in several articles the editor has without explanation substituted his own work for perfectly adequate images. Doing so has not appreciably improved the articles, but it has, of course, replaced the file with one bearing the editor's name and increased his visibility on the web.

In fact, on other websites the user advertises his work as a photographer by inviting people to view his work at Wikipedia -- and to visit his Wikipedia userpage, which raises the possibility that the userpage itself may be being used for self-promotion, contrary to WP:NOT#USER.

I have hunted around without much success for relevant policies, and while I suspect WP:NOT#SOAP is probably applicable, I'm wondering if there are other more precisely on point. Is there a policy on claiming authorship that might be applicable? --Rrburke(talk) 13:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is more of a case of proper attribution then self promotion. Especially in this time of copyright paranoia, it is particularly important to know exactly where an image comes from. If a Wikipedian takes an image, I don't see any problem with them making proper attribution in the file title. Now if they were a professional photographer including their phone# and hourly rate in the image file-that would cross into the self promotion line.AgneCheese/Wine 15:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention, if the filename would otherwise be fairly generic (Corvette isn't too bad an example), I believe many users attach their username or some other unique identifier so that there's no issues over replacing an existing image, or to avoid a WP/Meta conflict where both images might be necessary for some purpose. Confusing Manifestation 01:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, IIRC, an image creator may if s/he choses, relase an image under a license that requires a specific form of attribution. In any case, we are required to attribute the iamge to its source or creator. Unless the creator is including filenames that link to a business or soemthing of that sort, I don't see a problem with this. DES (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair USe Image's

I vaugley remember their being a policy about Fair Use images couldn't be above a certain resolution. Could anyone direct me towards a page or policy that confirms or denies this? The Placebo Effect 01:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No exact value is given, but WP:FU and WP:FUC basically say "only use what is needed". If a non-free image is being used to show someone swinging a golf club, we only need enough res to be able to see that (and possibly other things that might be important, such as who is swinging the club, but not what brand name is on the golf club, etc). -- Ned Scott 01:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed clarification to No Legal Threats

Your input is requested here: Wikipedia_talk:No_legal_threats#Passive_but_intimidating_legal_FYIs. This is a proposed clarification, to indicate that WP:LEGAL is a bright line policy, but that "passive threats" can be uncivil. Thanks, Kla'quot 05:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comments

Please comment on my suggested additions to Wikipedia:List guideline about what lists should not be created, here. Thanks in advance huji—TALK 10:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

marginal journalism

An editor is trying to distort the D. James Kennedy article by using unreliable sources. None of these people in the sources have qualifications to speak authoritatively on religious issues, yet by including them in the article who give credence to their outlandish claims that Dobson is a "leader" in the "Dominionist movement." I have checked sources, ranging from the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal, to various religious, sociological and political journals and magazines carried by major academic databases such as Academic Source Premier and UMI/Proquest. I cannot find any other sources who make this outlandish claims except for these small group of journalists (and an activist website Theocracy Watch, which is even more unreliable as source). If this inclusion can be carried as NPOV, then I am not sure what can be excluded from Wikipedia at all. Please advice. --LC 19:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Initially, looks more like a edit-skirmish between yourself and a series of opposing view editors. The sources added by the anons would seem to pass WP:RS - you can't exclude a source because the writer doesn't have the right qualifications. Perhaps a question of balance yes, and disturbing that they removed you NPOV tag, so I have reapplied it and started a discussion on the talk page. Will keep a watch on the article. Rgds, - Trident13

As I said at Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view#marginal journalism where LC posted exactly te same spurious complaint:


You could try going a step further... and say "According to source Z, X has been described as being Y<cite>" Blueboar 17:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Articles on Acts of Infamy

I get the feeling this is going to be extremely controversial, but I think it's important to discuss. I'm not very neutral (since I'm a student at Virginia Tech and lost more than one close friend), so I won't suggest many specific ideas--just describe the problem.

Freedom of information is important, but at some point it may become a violation of integrity. For example, the shooter at Virginia Tech sent a video to NBC of himself as he wanted to be seen. By airing this video, NBC gave him the voice he wanted even as he took away the voices of thirty-two other individuals.

The worst part is that this voice is what will inspire (and in fact already has inspired) others to follow in his footsteps. He desired infamy, and he got it. Others will see that and try to get the same thing for themselves. This is pretty well-documented, I think (I don't remember names, but I think it's reasonably accepted by criminal psychologists).

My very general proposal is that Wikipedians take steps to take away the voices of those who commit acts of infamy. While it is absolutely necessary to document their lives--ideally to prevent it from happening in the future--it is not necessary to show their videos and pictures in order to understand them better. If videos and such things must be kept, put them on a separate page on psychology of killers. Don't attach them to the killer him/herself.

Additionally, if the shooter gets his or her own Wikipedia page, give each of the victims a page (rather than a redirect).

A quick clarification: such a policy would not apply to, say, Hitler, because although Hitler was responsible for many acts of infamy, the acts themselves were committed by others at his behest. In the case of the shooter at Virginia Tech, the danger is not of history repeating itself in the group sense, but rather in the individual sense.

In other words, studying Hitler tells people how to prevent/avoid acts of genocide. People are collectively capable of preventing those crimes. However, a shooting is not an act that involves any collective political momentum, and is very hard to prevent with any amount of study (except psychological).

Please, discuss. I may elect to stay out of the discussion, except to clarify individual points. --aciel 22:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to note that Wikipedia is not censored. Just because you may not want someone to have an article because of evil deeds does not mean that the person in question should not have an article. Captain panda 01:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm right there with you, and not proposing censorship--merely VERY careful presentation of all of the facts. --aciel 03:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are two sides to a policy debate to my mind. The first is the proposal and debate around it; and the second is how to implement that consensus into something which an editor can comply with when creating or editting an article. Our primary purpose here is to document fact, in an open environment - the counter debate to your proposal could be: "we want everything in the open so that such people can be more easily spotted in the future, and the authorities/police do their job." You may not agree with that, but it is a valid stance - but the balance between the two positions in such sensitive ares is better debated on the articles talk page than in policy: and we don't censor input. In trying to implement such a proposal, how could we do this? Ban videos of murderes (the video is now public domain), ban media input (how could we create sources)? I can see there is a sensitivity around timing (same rules couldn't be applied to something fifty years old? Nah, there are some old horrors out there as well), but again I don't see how policy could be defined as to what is right/wrong in every situation. For an example of a debate on a sensitive issue, see the one on killing/murder above - almost there, but that's on only one word. I like the idea and have like many others I am sure a great deal of sympathy for you and your freinds at VirginiaTech as you come to terms with what happened. But, I can't see how clear policy could be created which would cover all situations and meet our primary objectives. With Best Regards, --Trident13 10:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as videos and pictures go... I would say that the video diatribe put out by the VT killer should not be used... not because of censorship, but becuase it should be considered a primary source... the use of which is discouraged under our rules. It is important to any article about an infamous event or person that we discuss (in a neutral tone) why the event happened and the person did what they did... and that may require quoting their statements... but we should be using reliable secondary sources to do so. The VT killer's stated motives were discussed by numerous magazines and newspapers... we should cite and quote those, and not quote him directly. Blueboar 15:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protocols for Administrators

  • Does the community believe administrators, when settling disputes, should do their best to gather comment from all parties, prior to making their own comment (or any decision)? 15:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Does the community believe administrators, in any circumstance, should refrain from making comments regarding motivations, especially colloquial and disrespectful ones? 15:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alastair Haines (talk • contribs)

Do you perhaps have a background from which you are asking these obviously leading questions? >Radiant< 10:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this in relation to the debate on teh article about Patriarchy? Rgds, --Trident13 10:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a list at the exact moment a vote to delete a category is taking place

An interesting and important debate is taking place at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish United States Supreme Court justices about the correctness of creating a list for information in a category that is facing a CfD, at the exact time that the category is facing its own CfD. Are there any precedants for this, and does it run counter to procedures, similar to the rule of not emptying a category while a vote is taking place (when by creating the list, one is in effect doing the reverse of emptying the category by preserving the category -- or vice versa)? Is it correct? Should it be permitted? Are there clear policy guidelines and what should (if anything) be done about it in terms of clarifying what the correct action should be? Thank you. IZAK 18:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything wrong with creating any article based on the timing of any particular CfD discussion. If there is something wrong with the article other than the timing of the CfD, the article can stand (or fall) after its own, unrelated AfD process. -- JHunterJ 18:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But if it were a list with the exact information contained in the category, would it not be going around and in effect pre-empting the results of its mirror category, by doing an "end-run" (and "preserving" the information in the category) before that category's CfD was closed? IZAK 18:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Categories and lists have some similarities but in the end are different (edit histories, for instance). A CfD isn't about getting rid of the information in a category, it's about getting rid of the category itself. IMO. -- JHunterJ 18:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well what's a category without it's information? Zero obviously. So it cannot be that when talknig of a category one can divorce it of its contents. IZAK 18:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An empty category is not zero, but semantics aside, right. But it's not an "IfD". I still do not see the problem with going through both a CfD and an AfD, if both the category and the article are to be deleted. -- JHunterJ 19:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see it as a significant problem. Certainly, in some cases, the list/category issue can be a problem, as there have been poorly made categories converted into lists (and vice versa) which should be avoided, but it is not so disruptive that it is truly a problem. Especially since there are times where a list/category conversion can fix a problem. I would honestly concentrate on the specific issue, and not on any kind of procedure that needs to be followed. If a category is a bad idea, and a list is a bad idea, they can be deleted. If a list is a good idea, and a category a bad one, delete one, keep the other. Mister.Manticore 19:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As the creator of the list in question, I'm afraid that IZAK appears to misunderstand several things.
  • There are important differences between a list and a category: see Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes "Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each is appropriate in different circumstances."
  • Many CfD discussions agree on the deletion of a category precisely because the info is available in some other way. IZAK's assumption that a CFD decision to delete a category necessarily means a decision to delete the information is seriously mistaken: there are plenty of CfDs where a category which deemed not to be a defining attribute or otherwise useful for navigation is deleted precisely because the info is available elsewhere, and the category is therefore un-needed category clutter. Some lists make bad categories, and vice-versa.
  • At the CFD debate in question, I explicitly said that I had created the list. IZAK is the only editor to object, and several explicitly supported the existence of the list.
  • Far from being akin to emptying a category, this is pretty much the opposite of emptying a category. Once a category is emptied it is a pain-in-the-neck to retrieve the data, which is why emptying it is deprecated before a CfD decision, because editors then can't see what was in a category. Similarly, once a category is deleted, it is very hard work to create a list from it: if the list is created in advance of deletion, the option still exists to delete it.
I created the list in good faith, to preserve information which I thought that some editors would not want deleted, and which would be lost if the category was deleted. As I have explained to IZAK at great length, this was done openly and in good faith ... but not only has IZAK declined my requests to withdraw his suggestion that I tried to subvert CFD, he has been decidedly uncivil to other editors at the AfD.
It may be that I have made a mistake, though I am not persuaded so far and no-one else has so far agreed with IZAK ... but if I have, I think it's a great pity that the response was to assume that I acted in bad faith.
The final thing that puzzles me about all of this is that I and others have repeatedly asked IZAK to explain why he thinks that the list should be deleted other than on procedural grounds. So far, he has declined, preferring to post long lists of essays and wikiprojects. Nobody at AfD so far agrees that the list as inappropriately created, but if the content of the list is so clearly inappropriate, what's the difficulty in producing a short explanation of why it made a bad list?
BTW, I remain neutral on whether the list should be deleted. My only concern here is that I created it in good faith, and I hope that if it is to be deleted, it will be deleted on grounds of its contents rather than a mistaken accusation of "sleight of hand". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BrownHairedGirl: Allow me to repeat myself. I am well aware of the differences between categories and lists and how they function and the subject of categories versus lists. I created Category:Jews and Judaism about three years ago and I have done extensive work with all levels of categories and with lists. So that is not the discussion at hand. My concern in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish United States Supreme Court justices is very simple that it is highly problematic to create a list that mirrors the contents for a category at the exact moment that there is a CfD vote for the elimination of that category and its contents. Just as it goes against procedure for any editor to empty a category during a CfD vote, to do the reverse, of "preserving" the contents of that category via the creation of a list is also out of line. (If, as you say, there is a concern about information being lost, then there are other ways of saving it on Wikipedia, like so: User:BrownHairedGirl/List of Jewish United States Supreme Court justices, but not by jumping to create a list for it before the debate has been concluded and closed.) That is the core of the objection, and ultimately the request for clarification, that I request here at the Village pump. Thank you, IZAK 20:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing, I don't see it as highly problematic. Potentially, maybe a cause for concern, but in terms of problems, a minor one at best. Mister.Manticore 21:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
IZAK, I have explained to why this is pretty much the opposite of emptying a category, but you appear to have chosen not to read that explanation :( And if you were aware if the difference betwen categories and lists, I doubt that we would be having this discussion.
There was no subterfuge: this was done openly, with the sole intention that the data not disappear from wikipedia when the category was emptied, unless there was a specific decision to delete it (which can still be made). Nobody else finds this problematic in this instance.
I am still bemused that you apparently would find it acceptable to create the list after the CfD is closed, but an outrageous violation of procedure to that I created it while discussion was underway and advertised its creation to participants in the CfD. That really is a back-to-front way of looking at things. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification on whether particular sources are reliable or not is needed

"Whether a history article published in a general, but respected newspaper can be reliable if it is written by a journalist with no established record of writing on historical topics?" The editors involved with Przyszowice massacre article are unable to agree (for weeks) on that issue. See also this disussion on WP:RS talk. Commons are very much appreciated, so that hopefully a clear majority of voices supporting one or another side can put an end to this dispute (and tag revert warring in article itself).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I won't wade into the whole thing, but of course a major newspaper can be a reliable source. On the other hand, it would not carry as much weight for me as a peer reviewed journal, since the editors of a newspaper are likely to review for factual accuracy and style while the reviewers of a peer reviewed journal will be applying subject matter expertise to the review. I would think our best work would use newspapers mainly for factual citations as to what occurred or where, and not for analysis. A Musing 18:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ *Time (in partnership with CNN), 2 February, 1981 [19]
    • The New York Times, 30 January, 1981 (13th article: "Murders bring fear to Protestants on Ulster border")[20]
    • Commons Hansard, Rev. Ian Paisley, 1992-06-10 [21]
    • The Spectator, 13 December, 1997 [22]
    • Lords Hansard, Lord Cooke of Islandreagh, 22 March, 2000 [23]
    • The News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland), January 19, 2001 [24]
    • The Daily Telegraph, 22 November, 2001 [25]
    • The Scotsman, 10 April, 2006 [26]
  2. ^ www.wikipedia.org
  3. ^ www.wikipedia.org
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