Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines.

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BLP: Replacement of images at subject's request

EDIT: Thanks to suggestions in the replies here, I have written this proposal into an essay. It is accessible at Wikipedia:I look ugly in this! with shortcuts WP:ILOOKUGLY and WP:BADHAIRDAY. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wpscatter (talk • contribs) 08:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Failing to find policy that addresses this specific case, I would like to propose one.

In the case that the subject of a BLP article wishes to have their photo removed from the article, we can use that as sole justification to replace it, regardless of the subject's reasoning, provided:

• The new photo is also freely licensed,
• The new photo is generally representative of the subject, and
• The new photo is suitable for the article, equally or more so than the original.

If the subject suggests a particular image to use instead, we should make an effort to use it provided it meets the above criteria.

I am not proposing any of the following:

• That we should remove images which BLP subjects oppose without replacement,
• That we change policy regarding the removal of article content the subject opposes, nor
• That the quality of an article should be sacrificed to please its subject.

In fact, this policy would not explicitly allow anything that isn't already allowed. However, codifying it would stop comments such as "is this really a good reason to change the image?", and lengthy discussions under it, in cases where there is no other justification to make the change.

There is precedent for a subject to have direct control of information that appears in an article, though for different reasons: see WP:DOB. See also WP:BLPKINDNESS.

There is a short discussion about this situation at WP:BLPN#Hasan Minhaj, but no real consensus was reached. WPscatter ^t/_c 16:42, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with this in broad concept, but with reservations. There may be good reasons to NOT use the image preferred by the subject (example: if it also unduly promotes his/her business). Blueboar (talk) 16:54, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  I think this, and any other reservations I can think of, are covered by my proposal already. An image unduly promoting a business is not suitable for the article. WPscatter ^t/_c 18:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

• No policy please! Should be case by case. These are reasonable principles though - do it as an essay? Johnbod (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for the suggestion, I think that's a much better idea. I wasn't aware there was a "policy bloat" problem. Wikipedia:I look ugly in this! WPscatter ^t/_c 08:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• Personally, I don't think we should be changing articles based on the whims of the subject - but if a better item does exist then we should change it. I don't see why we'd want to policy-ify it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:47, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  Simply to avoid the "is this really a good reason to change it?" argument when it comes up. Also in cases where the given image is already good and it wants to be changed to one of approximate equal quality - we've all seen "old one was fine" reverts. WPscatter ^t/_c 18:12, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  If the items are equally good, then there is no reason to change it. The subject of the article has no more weight than any other editor. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:39, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  That the subject of the article should have more weight than other editors when it comes to the page image, and that it should be a valid reason to change to an equally good image, is exactly the policy change I'm proposing. Stating that it isn't currently the case isn't an argument, it's the entire point. WPscatter ^t/_c 21:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  Maybe "the point" you are making is a bad one? Maybe the idea that the subject of an article should have control (beyond the basic avoid libel type stuff) isn't something we should be doing. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:46, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

  If you have any arguments as to why a subject's desire to have an image removed should be a reason against replacing it with an equally (or better) suitable one, please post them. I've written an essay about it, I welcome discussion on its talk page. WPscatter ^t/_c 09:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

  If their preferred image is better, the fact that it is better is the reason to change it. If it is only "as good", then the change is just pointless. The onus is on the subject to show that their image is better. And "I think this picture of me is prettier" is not a reason that holds any weight. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  "If it is only "as good", then the change is just pointless" - okay, why? If thousands of people were seeing an image of you that you didn't like, I'm sure you'd feel differently. The fact that the person is not presented in a way they like makes it not "pointless". And besides, even if it is "pointless", surely that means we can make the change without affecting anything negatively, which is why I will continue to argue that we should. I still have not read any argument as to why we should not. WPscatter ^t/_c 20:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  ""If it is only "as good", then the change is just pointless" - okay, why?" Because any change made to any Wikipedia article should be one that makes the article better. If the picture is only "as good", then it does not, by definition, make the article better. It is just rearranging deck chairs. "If thousands of people were seeing an image of you that you didn't like, I'm sure you'd feel differently. " I'm not sure why you are so confident about what I would feel when I pretty much said that a person's own opinion about a photo of themselves is of no importance. And, to reiterate my point, "not affecting anything negatively" is not a reason do something. The reason to do something is because it will affect things positively. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  May I direct you to WP:BLPKINDNESS, which is policy and states "Editors should make every effort to act with kindness toward the subjects of biographical material when the subjects arrive to express concern." Are you willing to argue that saying "no, the old picture is fine as is" is acting with kindness when a subject expresses that they do not like how they are presented? WPscatter ^t/_c 21:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  You are completely misrepresenting what WP:BLPKINDNESS is about. This has nothing to do with "showing leniency to BLP subjects who try to fix what they see as errors or unfair material". The point of BLPKINDNESS is not to throw the book at people who are technically acting with a COI. Not to coddle their vanity. As I've said before, if the existing image does not meet guidelines for not presenting the subject in a negative fashion and for presenting them in a way that is generally representative, their proposed image would be preferred. Beyond that, if the two images are equally good, I see no reason for a change. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  "I see no reason for a change" - that isn't true. The reason is that the subject prefers the new one. You just don't agree with the reason. And you still haven't argued why, outside of simply saying "we should ignore them". WPscatter ^t/_c 16:59, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Their preference for one photo over another falls under WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Which specifically covers "subjective opinions concerning the usage of fair use images". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:45, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  First of all, that's an essay, not policy. But more importantly, the subject of a BLP being the one who doesn't like it changes things. BLP matters often trump other areas of policy and procedure. It's really a stretch to say this is outside the realm of BLPKINDNESS.

  Others have presented fair arguments against making this policy, such as that it opens the door for subjects to whimsically request changes very often, leaving us obligated to have a constantly rotating image in the article. You haven't presented any other than a dogmatic "subjects shouldn't have control over their articles". Again, my entire argument is that this (where an equally suitable or no-consensus image is preferred by a subject) is a special case in which considering the subject's opinion does not negatively affect the article. If you would like to argue why it would negatively affect the article I welcome that. Appealing to dogma is not an argument. WPscatter ^t/_c 18:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  While I'm waiting for you to give a reason why we should do this instead of sticking with the Wikipedia wide principles of 1) not making changes that do not improve the article and 2) being independent of the subject. I'm also confused why you would bring up BLP issues when you already specified that this is only for cases where the two images are equally suitable. If there is a BLP issue with one of the images, then the other is preferable. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:11, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  If we think as kind, considerate people rather than Wikipedia policy robots, the reason why we should do this presents itself rather obviously. Of course "this person is being represented in a manner they aren't okay with" is a reason to change the picture, all else being equal.

  Let me remind you that Wikipedia policies exist for reasons. The reason COI and BLP self-edit policy exists is because it tends to make the article worse via violations of NPOV or uses of unreliable, non-independent sources. They don't exist because "subjects shouldn't have control over their articles" was divinated from on high, to be followed uncritically by all Wikipedia editors to follow. Please make an argument as to why appealing to the subject in this special case would make the article worse. Otherwise this discussion is not productive and I will not continue it. WPscatter ^t/_c 18:05, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Khajidha said: Because any change made to any Wikipedia article should be one that makes the article better. If the picture is only "as good", then it does not, by definition, make the article better. It is just rearranging deck chairs.

  This isn't actually a policy. It's your opinion. It's a fine opinion, but it should not be mistaken for a requirement or a view that has general consensus.

  We have consensus that edits should not make articles worse. We do not have consensus that if the article says "The film is known for A, B, and C", and someone wants to 'rearrange the deck chairs' so that it says C, A, and B, that you get to revert them because you think the change was pointless. If there were any community consensus on such changes, it would likely be that you shouldn't get in the way of editors who believe they are improving an article when you think their changes are pointless. The very first item in WP:BADREVERT is about "edits that neither improve nor harm the article". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:20, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  If the current photo is a mug shot or looks like the subject just walked through a tornado, then a picture of them in a normal setting with normal grooming would be better. And that would have nothing to do with their preference. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think we need this as policy, just that yes, if the subject is able to provide a quality free image that is seen as an improvement by editors, that should be preferred. (We should have a guideline somewhere related to "handling content requests from the BLP subject" that this should be covered in). --Masem (t) 17:59, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Probably not a great idea. In some cases, sure. I remember the case of Lauren Wolkstein. Her face isn't entirely symmetrical. I think she looks fine, but that's not the point. File:Lauren Wolkstein Montclair film festival 2017.jpg used to be the infobox image. It's not a poorly timed photo, it's just what she looks like. After photos without permission were uploaded and inserted repeatedly we now have File:LaurenWolkstein2021.jpg with OTRS permission. It's a fine picture, but it also deliberately tries to make her face look more symmetrical than it is. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:19, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah that's the rub, if the person wants to present an airbrushed picture say. However, I haven't seen that very much. If both pictures are OK but the one the subject wants makes him look somewhat better, but no less like he really looks than the existing picture... it's fine. Which is most cases. Per the spirit of BLP, we should lean over backwards as far as reasonably possible to accomodate the subject. (But then there is also the question of the person requesting being the actual subject, or her agent, if there's no OTRS ticket). Anyway, we have too many rules already, and rules are supposed to codify existing procedure, not be mandated from above. An essay would be good tho. Herostratus (talk) 23:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Where the subject's preferred photo is appropriately licensed and equally good or better then I can see absolutely no reason why we wouldn't use their preferred photo. If the image is overly promotional then it is worse than the current image and so this wouldn't apply. If someone's face is notably asymmetric (or has some other notable feature) then there should be reliably sourced content in the article supporting that. If that content is in or near the lead then a photo that doesn't show that aspect isn't equally as good as one that doesn't. If the content is lower down the article then use the original photo adjacent to that content and the preferred photo in the lead. If there is no relevant reliably sourced content in the article then the preferred picture not showing that is not a reason to regard it as worse than the current one. In all cases though it is perfectly acceptable to discus which photo is better any why, the only changes would be (1) that one photo being the preferred photo of the subject is not a reason why it is worse than the previous one and (2) no consensus (or consensus they are equally good) defaults to using the preferred photo. Thryduulf (talk) 11:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - if the subject has a better photo to offer, the relevant fact is that it is a better photo. Not that it is from the subject. We aren't part of their social media presence, their likes and dislikes are no concern of ours. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. Individual cases should be considered on their merits. It may be appropriate to take the subject's personal preferences into consideration, but trying to make this into some sort of policy makes no sense, given the multitude of other possible factors that may be relevant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• I dislike the proposal's wording, because it says "sole justification" and then goes on to list three non-trivial requirements that the preferred photo must satisfy, which is a little contradictory. However, I do support the general idea of using the subject's wishes as a tiebreaker in "no consensus" scenarios, as opposed to defaulting to the status quo as we usually do. There is precedent for this type of action, cf. WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:22, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for bringing up the "tiebreaker in case of no consensus" idea, since I think that's an important point and I hadn't thought of it. I've incorporated it into the essay I wrote on the topic. WPscatter ^t/_c 09:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support I used to deal with this a lot. I fully appreciate that many people dislike poor-quality or embarrassing images of themselves like mug shots. A particular problem is when a person derives income from their appearance and therefore prefers the airbrushed publicity photo. Given that our definition of free is "free as in free enterprise", prioritising the interest of corporations over those of the encyclopaedia, I am generally willing to accommodate this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:16, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• The important question is: is the proposed new image better than the current image (both in terms of quality and our rules)? It does not matter who proposes it. Blueboar (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

  That's a fair point, and really I suppose the only thing this proposal would change is the case where the new image is of approximate equal quality or no consensus can be reached. WPscatter ^t/_c 09:02, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support wholeheartedly. Typically, a Wikipedia photo represents a person across the Internet whenever you search for them: it is deranged for us to insist on using terrible photos because using good ones would somehow be capitulation. I mean, the same argument could be applied to any insulting thing: what if we added a sentence to every BLP saying "there is no evidence that John Smith is not a pedophile"? And then we could preen ourselves about how we didn't cave in to the demands of subjects by removg it. And it would even be true, technically speaking! But it would also be pointlessly mean moustache-twirling vindictiveness. jp×g 19:19, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support if the replacement photo is just as good, it doesn't have to be better to make it a kind thing to do to replace. Newystats (talk) 06:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support So long as it is of equal or better quality, I have no problem respecting someone's wishes. --Jayron32 14:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• I support in principle as a tiebreaker, à la WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE. The proposed wording is a bit dramatic, though. Ovinus (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• This is in line with what I understand typical practice to be. Some people seem to take an adversarial stance against article subjects for some reason, rather than just tell them "it's the best we have. give us a better alternative and a reason why it's better, and we can see about changing it". It seems pretty in line with BLP to be respectful and empathetic to people who don't like the photo we have (and to guide them accordingly). I don't think this needs to be introduced to policy, but an essay in projectspace makes sense to me. You'll just have to decide if that essay is for Wikipedians interpreting policy or article subjects to explain to them what's going on (and how to upload something better, if they own the copyright to it). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:54, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose making a policy that gives article subjects editorial control. If they prefer a different image every month, we should be free to ignore them. We should honour reasonable requests, but making this policy goes way too far. —Kusma (talk) 14:23, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

It goes without saying that there needs to be some authentication, such as WP:UTRS if the person makes their comments on Wikipedia. We wouldn't be able to take any action on an unauthenticated message or through an untrusted channel. Elizium23 (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually, we can sometimes/often take action without authentication, because fairly often it doesn't matter who made a request. If someone shows up and says "Hey, I'm the subject, and please fix this obvious problem", we should focus on the obvious problem, not on checking who said it. After all, we didn't ask the people who wrote the article/added the image/caused the problem to authenticate themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:25, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Support, and if they're both "equally good" but one is preferred to the other, then they're not equal IMO - the preferred once should be used. Caveat should be put into place so the subject doesn't constantly change the pictures. Ortizesp (talk) 20:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Support as long as the replacement photo is freely licensed and of high quality. Kindness toward living people who are the subjects of our articles is essential to the reputation of the encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 20:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose -- this is a waste of time to codify this as actual policy. Reasonable requests should be honored, but this should not be policy. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:29, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• Strong support, but the policy should be very clear that a consensus that the proposed image is worse according to objective criteria (sunglasses, improper crop, funky lighting etc) still overrides subject requests. Arbitrary criteria, like facial asymmetry, aren't encyclopedically relevant, and pictures that highlight e.g. asymmetry, or fatness, are not "more objective". Cameras always lie. Even RAW files don't necessarily match what our eyes see and must undergo processing.

The policy should also clarify "unduly promotional" so it's properly applied: if a notable writer or philosopher happens to prefer a picture sitting at their desk, in front of a bookcase, where their face is clearly visible and correctly zoomed-in, that shouldn't be rejected as "unduly promotional". Same with a doctor in a white coat, a chef in a chef's hat, or a scientist in a lab coat, as long as the pictures look good and meet objective criteria, there's no reason not to accomodate. If an African living person prefers a picture in traditional garb, rather than an occasionally-worn Western suit & tie, why not accomodate? It helps readers gain context, and does not constitute bias in favor of article subjects.

Quite a few BLP subjects have complained that Wikipedia photos were "biased", but seemed unaware that they could propose better ones. Codifying this as policy will hopefully increase their awareness that nothing stops them from putting pictures in the public domain, which we sorely lack for many BLPs.

When people Google someone they've never heard of, the first think they'll likely check is Wikipedia, and I think it's good to preserve subjects' dignity by making sure the first impression people get isn't instantly disfavorable to the subject. This should help. DFlhb (talk) 10:49, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Support in general, but if the subject provides the image, only if the subject acknowledges they are aware that such photos on Wikipedia are distributed under our CC licenses, which for the most part includes commercial use with attribution. Except for celebrities known for Wikipedia, like Jimbo Wales, Larry Sanger, and Depths of Wikipedia, I don't think it's a good assumption to make that famous people are aware of this policy. There are obviously exceptions, so in reality it's all going to be decided case-by-case, but in general, I do not oppose codifying this. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Ummmm so in regards to The new photo is suitable for the article, equally or more so than the original. that is an editorial decision, and discussion is already the mechanisms to determine what is the most suitable content for an article. Encouraging better, freely-licened media is certainly a good thing - but that won't override any illustrative purposes unique to other pieces of media. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Userboxes and userspace - What's allowed, what isn't?

We need to discuss the applicability of WP:UPNOT and how much latitude we allow in terms of userboxes or userpages espousing political, religious, sociological or any other beliefs which could be regarded as divisive. There's been a recent increase of activity at WP:MFD over the past couple months, and what concerns me is the fact that our current system entrusts a handful of editors (myself included) to cast judgment on whether or not a userbox is in violation of user page guidelines. In light of the fact the guidelines do state that the Wikipedia community is generally tolerant and offers fairly wide latitude in applying these guidelines to regular participants, I've started to wonder where we are supposed to draw the line.

Now as a full disclosure, I've been a regular and perhaps somewhat aggressive participant in these MFDs. I've usually !voted to keep, in most instances, because I tend to lean more towards what the quoted passage says above. No, we aren't a WP:SOAPBOX, but numerous regular editors (and a few admins) have been given latitude for expressing viewpoints on their userpage. If nothing else, I feel strongly that we ought to prioritize our efforts towards building an encyclopedia rather than seeking out minor userspace violations. My participation in this space, therefore, has been out of efforts to maintain the status quo rather than create an atmosphere that is hostile to our diverse userbase. I recognize that this may actually be counter-productive to my message, but it's why I've decided to go to the village pump finally, to get input from the community at large.

We've talked on and off about creating an RfC for userboxes. Are we at the point now where an RfC is necessary to settle the userbox question? I certainly don't want to kick off another massive conflict in the process. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 16:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I would support such an RfC, having prompted much of the discussion about this by nominating for deletiog things I felt were in clear violation of the rules (BLP attacks, advocacy of violence, discrimination, etc), but it seems even many of those were controversial. My personal belief is that all polemic and advocacy content should be at least discouraged if not removed entirely, but my main concerns are the aforementioned subjects. I think the top priority should be the extent to which users can express support for the use of political violence, military action, or terrorist organizations. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:05, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

There was a very recently closed RFC at WT:User pages and a similar issue, particularly the alternative proposal. My problem with those proposal extend here, simply who makes the judgement? Either all such things should be banned, or we accept that we are banning those things we don't like. That's not to say that editors should have carte blanche to post anything on their userpages. If an editor posts text/images/iconography that singles out a specific group ("X people be eliminated", "X people shouldn't exist", "X people should be subservient") then they are attacking editors who are in those groups and WP:CIVIL applies. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

After reading through that, it's disappointing how many of the !votes either come down to WP:FREESPEECH, a right to violate WP:SOAPBOX, or that their specific extreme ideology should be exempt because WP:ILIKEIT. I maintain that the solution is to actually enforce WP:USERPAGES and WP:SOAPBOX as they stand, but at the very least, advocacy of violence (explicit or implied) should not be tolerated. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You can say WP:ILIKEIT, but equally WP:IDONTLIKEIT applies. Personally I don't see why we have these boxes at all, beyond those about Wikipedia (language boxes for instance), but I don't feel the end to impinge my opinion on other editors userpages. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

ILIKEIT and IDONTLIKEIT only apply if it's in absence of policy and guidelines that support it. Current policies and guidelines support the removal of divisive content on user pages. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You brought up WP:ILIKEIT, I was only pointing out the opposite applies to what was nominated. What is or is not divisive is always a tight rope walk, between understanding the position of others and understanding our own biases. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

This is my point exactly. I don't think the current process that we have in place works for userpages and userboxes due to the limited number of editors involved in the process. MfD wasn't really built with continuous userspace trawling in mind, or at least, I think it envisioned higher participation than what we currently have. But right now, we do have a system that can be abused to favor or disfavor certain viewpoints (WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT as mentioned above), because the surrounding policy and guidelines are subtly imprecise. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 23:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I remember a userbox issue over those that claimed something like "I support marriage define as between a man and a woman" that was more than a year ago that ended up with a lot of those deleted, and I think we really need to reconsider that in this framework as well. I can understand that editors that may express such views are likely in a small minority among editors, but in that discussion I remember that it was driven by editors that felt that that message was hostile to them and thus that the ubx needed to go. This also goes hand in hand with the NONAZIS essay, which doubles down on excluding editors that may have extremist viewpoints but otherwise willing to edit without disruption. We definitely do not want editors make othe editors feel so uncomfortable due to an expression of what they believe that us purposely hostile and calls out an editor or group of editors. But we also state that WP is a commonplace of ideas and you as editors will likely encounter other ideas that will make you uncomfortable, and WP cannot really protect you from that. There's definitely some balance needed here because I think we have overreacted on ubx and need to bring it back a bit. Or otherwise be very clear the difference between expressing a view that is nonspecific to whom it may be intended, and expressing opinions that are clearly meant to disrupt WP. Masem (t) 22:15, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

(FWIW, the discussion I recalled was this ANI and the linked XFDs [1]) Masem (t) 01:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I remember that. Although the consensus for that thread wasn't unanimous, it's clear from a consensus standpoint that the community does seem to frown upon discriminatory userboxes. This one became a particular lightning rod for whatever reason - call it serendipity or just the surrounding circumstances such as current events or whatnot. But that being said, I do also think there was some desire that the userbox and userpage question be settled in a manner so that we are not continually finding ourselves sniping at userspace on an ad hoc basis. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 13:43, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• I will repeat what I said during the debate about NONAZIS: We should ENCOURAGE editors with extreme viewpoints to identify themselves on their user pages … so that the rest of us know who they are and can monitor what they do elsewhere in the project… to make sure they don’t edit the more public parts of WP in a disruptive way. Blueboar (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Perhaps Wikipedia should compile a list of beliefs and opinions permitted to be expressed in userspace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  And not only that, perhaps we should entrust a select handful of editors with determining the content of this list, as well as ensuring its subsequent enforcement. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 23:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  The problem is that that group would be a likely target for harassment, so it would be best if the members of that group were kept secret. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  Also, since we don’t want people gaming the system, we should keep the list of beliefs and expressions a secret. Only the secret group of enforcers can know what they are enforcing! Blueboar (talk) 00:22, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  We'd need a way to keep it secret. Reliable sources state that two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. I propose that one living person and one deceased person be chosen randomly to serve. Since this is an even number of people, disputes will be settled with rock paper scissors. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:30, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  To avoid gaming the system by running out the clock, we will need to ensure that if the living person of the pair dies, the dead one is revived or reincarnated. DMacks (talk) 04:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• If we are going down this path, and I'm not sure that's wise, we desparately need to become rather more evenhanded about both the rules and their execution. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
• We should just get rid of all the damn things. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
• I may not be aware of all the relevant guidelines right now but here's my opinion: there's no cause for alarm. I wouldn't be comfortable with excessively patrolling what users put on their paged. Fine, if it violates Wikipedia:No personal attacks or targets specific people or editors, then it would be appropriate to take action. Otherwise I don't see why we would be need to police userboxes including the "i see marriage as between a man and a woman". We may not all agree but this harms no one and if the editor in question is able to edit productively without bias getting in the way, I don't see what's wrong. — Python Drink (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  I strongly disagree. In your particular example, that's harmful to LGBT users, and by extension to Wikipedia as a whole. Users with such a statement in user space are clearly suggesting that LGBT users are less welcome here, and that affects the ability of Wikipedia to maintain a healthy environment to retain editors. All polemic content has such an effect, and that's why it's inappropriate on Wikipedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, LGBT users might get their feelings hurt if they see such a statement. But what else would a statement like that do? I can't say much. Are we gonna act like anti-LGBT ubx are the only things that might hurt someone's feelings . Pretty sure you'll agree that this is a diverse community and some of us feel pretty strongly about certain things. Consider this: if someone had a ubx that says that they wouldn't befriend a Republican or feminist, surely that might make such people feel "less welcome" as you said? (Even I myself cringe hard when I see certain ubx but I wouldn't think of denying them that) Do we bend over to accommodate them? What do you think would happen if we applied this consistently? Would you also want a ubx gone that says the "Bible is a big book of fairy tales" as that might make Christians feel "less welcome". Hopefully you get the point I'm making, namely we can't afford to accommodate people's feelings so much. No matter what you do, people's feelings will be hurt. It should be up to them to suck it up—unless it's targeted harassment or incitement to violence which is already covered by policy — Python Drink (talk) 20:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• No, we should not be asking users to "suck it up" when editors deliberately post unnecessary bigotry, as the community agreed a few years ago. Black Kite (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Genuine question, @Black Kite. Would my examples count as unnecessary bigotry? By the way, my previous comment was a response to the notion of users "feelings unwelcome" not exactly "bigotry" whatever that means to you (which is why I'm asking for clarification) — Python Drink (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Every single one of those examples is counterproductive to the construction of an encyclopedia, not to mention just plain rude. I would vote to delete any and all of those. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien, you might as well ban ubx. I think basically whenever we express an opinion or affirm something about us, we rusk offending someone. Perhaps there should be much more clearer clarification as to what's allowed. Although this discussion is making it more complicated than it needs to be. By the way, how would you rate the "unwelcoming factor" of my ubx? Lol — Python Drink (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Automatically display recent changes to a policy in a highlighted color

We currently allow bold changes to policy, for good reason. The problem is threefold:

• New editors reading these policies can't easily tell what is established language from what was added days ago. That's bad for bold changes that may substantially change a policy's application.
• Edits may "slip through" that lack consensus, without page watchers catching it in time. This is a problem when substantial changes take too long to be noticed, since the change, which was made without conseensus, is then thought to require affitmative consensus to revert, thus cementing non-consensus changes as policy.
• Long-time editors may simply not notice changes to policies, and may continue applying the "old" policy rather than the current one. See the Mandela effect: established editors may not even notice the change.

Here's my proposal:

• Recent changes to policy should be highlighted for a certain period of time (done automatically by MediaWiki, not as an optional template), so that editors can easily identify changes.
• The highlight would look like the text= parameter of the {{Clarify}} template, or something similar.

That wouldn't just help identify bold changes; it would also apply to recent policy changes that resulted from an explicit consensus/discussion. Enabling "pending changes" review for all policies would not address the threefold problem, since edits that lack wider consensus may still be accepted by a single page reviewer.

Why do I feel this change is needed? It would help us avoid future acrimonious debates like these on which version of the policy is the status quo, which no one benefits from. DFlhb (talk) 11:34, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@DFlhb this "automatic" thing that you want us to do here on the English Wikipedia - does this exist (please point to an example)? If not you will need to invent that software first before we could decide if it is something that our project should use. I suspect one challenge you will run in to there is that mediawiki has almost no knowledge in to the "meaning of content" on a page, so how would it even know that a page was a "policy" (there is no concept of that being "special" content). Locally, this could possibly be done with markup - but that markup would need to be managed by editors. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:42, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

MediaWiki wouldn't need to "know"; it would just be an extra page setting (like "pending changes" is a page setting). It would also not replace semi-protection; it would be purely a supplement. It would need to be newly built into MediaWiki, and we would apply it to all policy pages. The goal is indeed to avoid having to need editors to manage markup, since that poses the exact same "stuff sometimes slips through" problem.

If editors here agree with this proposal, then I'll take it to Phabricator for it to be added to MediaWiki. DFlhb (talk) 11:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@DFlhb ok, so this would be some setting that someone (admins perhaps) would apply to a page. There may be existing extensions that could possibly do this, perhaps mw:Extension:Approved Revs, mw:Extension:FlaggedRevs, or the like. I doubt this would ever get built in the mediawiki core, so that would mean that an extension would be the way to go. That being said, there is an extreme minority of pages this would ever even apply to here (~69 of our 60,767,167) pages - so running special software for these pages that don't really impact our readers at all is another unlikely scenario. This could be done "process wise" by full-protecting the pages, requiring that all changes are marked up and published. Bold editing could still take place, but would need to use edit-requests and consume admin time. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Hadn't heard of the Approved and Flagged Revs extensions, so thanks for the links, but they'd be more similar to "pending changes" than what I propose; I just want any additions to be highlighted for a month (and removals to be struck through, I suppose). I do fully concede that it's an extreme minority of pages; but given the importance of policies for all Wikipedians, I feel it's worth it. Given the maturity of our policies, full-protection may be reasonable, but would be a more radical change than I propose. DFlhb (talk) 12:46, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

It is a good idea, although the implementation may be tricky. Programmatically, such tracking seems more akin to version control for the mainspace, and I am not certain that mw can/should handle it. As xaosflux stated the effort required doesn't match the yield (less than 70 pages?) Basically you want the software to flag revisions (for a certain defined time-period based on the commit timestamp) and render such revisions differently. However, there may be additional revisions which should be distinguishable, or reverts (which may also need to be signaled). Also, I suppose the "accepted" flag should be set upon review to de-emphasize accepted edits. As stated, conceptually is a good idea. Whether it is doable is another issue. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 12:55, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Add: there may also be an issue with minor edits. Should a one-character punctuation edit be signaled? Perhaps. Punctuation (such as the placement of a comma) may change the meaning of a sentence. Sorry for bringing this up, I have worked with lawyers. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 13:06, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I think such a thing could be built from https://api.wikiwho.net/en/whocolor/v1.0.0-beta/ but it would be slow as molasses in winter for heavily edited pages (say, anything with more than a few hundred edits ever). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:45, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• These seems like a Very Bad Idea. We shouldn't be treating policy as some kind of sacrosanct set of laws handed down from a supreme deity and written onto stone tablets, never to be changed again. Policy follows process, and NOT the other way around. Wikipedia's policies and guidelines should ideally be descriptive and not proscriptive or prescriptive; which is to say they should reflect existing best practices and not restrict people from doing what is best for the encyclopedia unnecessarily. The OP's proposal has the effect of fossilizing all policies in place in the state they currently exist in, by making it look like any changes to policies are not "accepted" or "approved". That shouldn't be how Wikipedia works; best practices will evolve over time as we find that somethings work better in some situations than others; so Wikipedia's policies and guidelines should evolve with changing community norms. If we flag every change to a policy page, those changes read as "Someone changed this after God already determined it was perfect", and that is NOT how policy should work. --Jayron32 14:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  Well said. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:55, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  No idea how my proposal enshrines anything at all. My proposal is meant to make sure that all changes are in line with consensus, without contentious changes being "sneaked in". How would it fossilize anything? Maybe I should clarify that the highlighted content would not be "everything changed after X date", it would be "everything changed in the last week" (for example). If there's consensus for a change, it wouldn't get reverted, so nothing's fossilized. DFlhb (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• I'll just say that many years ago (more than 15) I sort of proposed that policy pages should be harder to modify than other pages, and was called "overly bureaucratic". I don't think general sentiment on the topic has changed since then. - Donald Albury 16:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
• I think the intent to make changes to policies more visible is a good one, but given the above comments I'm not sure how practical the above ideas are. I've got two suggestions, present below, that while probably not as helpful as the original idea would be would go a little way towards the same aim while being easier to implement:
  1. Adding a template at the top of policy pages giving the timestamps and edit summaries for the last N edits/all edits in the last N days to the page with a link to the diff
  2. A watchlistable (and transcludable) feed of all edits to policy pages. Something like:

Policy	diff	Timestamp	Editor	diff size	Minor	Edit summary
Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry	diff	13:34, 10 November 2022	Industrial Arthropod	+10	m	Added a shortcut that wasn't previously in the Shortcuts section
Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons	diff	11:47, 10 November 2022	DFlhb	+355		→‎Using the subject as a self-published source: This is intended merely to clarify the current consensus on how to apply this policy; NOT to change how it's applied.

Thryduulf (talk) 18:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I would love a "policy watchlist" page, which would be separate from our own personal watchlists (I already have hundreds of pages on mine). That would come a long way to addressing my concerns. DFlhb (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@DFlhb, that's easy. Just make yourself a list of the pages you want to watch, and use Special:RecentChangesLinked. See Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:List of policies as an example (although that page contains links to pages that aren't policies). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that tool is extremely helpful. DFlhb (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't makes sense given WP:History functionality. Usually, one can find consensus that have introduces change to the policy on the talk pages. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 10:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support this is a great idea, provided that the fine print explains (A) that the highlighted new (or changed) text is equally valid as the long standing text and (B) it is to be applied/enforced just as the non-highlighted text. By highlighting recent changes, we will be supporting the ongoing contribs from veteran editors who remember what policy X used to say, and may have not noticed when Policy X was updated. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Using Move Request to draftify?

There recently a Move Request to move an article to draft space. It was created in article space, and then moved to draft space by a reviewer, and then moved back to article space. Then the reviewer tagged it with a Move Request to move it back to draft space. My question is whether this is a satisfactory way to ask for a second draftification. I and some other editors have been repeatedly saying that a unilateral second move to draft space is move warring, and that AFD should be used in such cases. So, is a Move Request an acceptable alternative to AFD? The instructions for Move Review do not explicitly answer the question. They say that Move Requests may not be used for moves from draft space or user space to article space. May a Move Request be used the other way, from article space to draft space?

One disadvantage to using a Move Request rather than AFD is that AFDs are listed via Deletion Sorting, which may bring in editors who are interested in the topic. I think that the rules should be clarified, either to say that Move Requests from article space to draft space are made by AFD, or to say that a Move Request is a means for requesting draftification. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S.: It has been moved back to draft space again, so the question is not about the specific page, but I think it is a policy question that should be addressed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Moving back to draft space does sound inappropriate. A move request, or move debate is a waste of time. AFD should be the way. If BRD is followed, the initial draftify is the B. Restore to article is the R. Discussion should follow, and that should be an AFD. Draft is not a final state, either it should end up as an article or be deleted (or possibly merged). Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I should propose adding to the instructions for when Move Requests should not be used to say that it is also not the procedure for a contested draftify, which is done by AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Support adding to the WP:RM instructions that Move Requests should not be used to for a contested draftify, which is done by AFD. Deletion sorting, and existing procedures for notifications are a sufficient reason to justify this. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Graeme Bartlett - You are using an interesting and useful extension of the BRD concept, in which sometimes there is a formalized process for discussion. Article content disputes are often BRDD, where the first Discuss is on the talk page, and the second discuss is an RFC. Sometimes I mediate a discussion at DRN that is BRDDD, where the first discussion was on the talk page, and the second discussion was at DRN with a moderator, and the third discussion is the RFC. We need to keep in mind, as you did, that sometimes there is a formalized method of discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that BRD should be used for page moves. BRD means that the initiating editor thinks their action is BOLD. BOLD is good for editing, but for page moves, if there’s a chance of reverts and subsequent BRD, it makes for really confusing edit histories and page logs. Unilateral page moves should ONLY be used where the page movers believes that there can be no reasonable objection, where the move is non-controversial. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:RMUM also disagrees with this idea of reverting page moves. Move wars cause more problems (e.g., screwing up double-redirects to the point that the bot can't untangle them) than regular edit wars. There are very, very, very few reasons to revert a page move without first having at least a quick discussion.

I think it would also be a good idea for editors involved in disputes to review Wikipedia:Drafts#Objections. The rule is that unilateral draftification is a one-chance deal, just like WP:PROD. And just like PROD, if the other guy disagrees, then you send it to AFD instead of re-reverting. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the guiding principle should be that once a page has been moved out of draftspace it may not be moved back in without consensus at an AfD. Establishing is going to be a lot simpler and avoid good or bad faith disruption from discussing each possible alternative to going to AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 16:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

If a (non AfC or NPP reviewer) editor unilaterally moves a draft to mainspace, and a NPP reviewer thinks it meets the WP:Draftify criteria, it seems to me pretty reasonable for the reviewer to immediately Draftify it, ideally with an explanation to the first editor. Once any editor invokes WP:DRAFTOBJECT, it may not be moved back without consensus at AfD. Possibly, should all non-AfD draftifications be required to to accompanied by a reference (eg in the edit summary) to WP:DRAFTOBJECT? SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Any move of a page from draftspace to mainspace can and should be taken as an invocation of WP:DRAFTOBJECT because it is not uncontroversial that the page is not appropriate for the mainspace. Thryduulf (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I might agree with this.

If agreed, it should be noted at WP:DRAFTOBJECT.

A counterpoint might be that the mainspacer made an obvious mistake than can be easily explained to them. I’m not sure this is a strong counterpoint; educating other users is a good use of AfD. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:RM should not be used to Draftify a mainspace article, but it may be used to Draftify a non-mainspace page, or to mainspace a draft. Uses of WP:RM to move non-mainspace pages to draftspace, or to mainspace a draft are unusual but possible. WP:RM is mostly about titling, but for miscellaneous questions of the correct namespace, where no other venue such as AfD exists, WP:RM works.

For articles, WP:AfD should be used if there is any doubt or contest to the draftification of the article. Draftification can be a pseudo-deletion, and AfD not RM is the competent process to do this.

The required use of WP:AfD in the case of WP:DRAFTOBJECT is already documented. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Perhaps what is needed is a new process specifically for draftification… call it WP:AfDraft? It would focus on improving the current STATE of problematic articles (sourcing, neutrality, OR concerns, etc), as opposed to examining the notability of the topic (which would remain under AFD). I could also see having two separate DRAFT spaces… one for new articles, and another for fixing existing articles. Blueboar (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

DRAFTOBJECT is an essay. What matters is the quality of the article/draft, and who objects. If the article creator moves a terrible draft on a potentially notable subject back to the mainspace, then Afd is not the answer, but redraftifying is the perfect solution. The one who wants to promote it to the mainspace can always let their draft be reviewed by an uninvolved editor, and if it is acceptable it will be moved to mainspace. But I have no idea why people continue to claim that some essay means that no article, no matter how terrible, may be moved back to mainspace if anyone, even the creator, objects. Such disputes is not what AfD is needed for and are just attempts to add a load of bureaucracy to efforts to keep mainspace articles to a reasonable minimum standard. Fram (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Unless and until draftspace and AFC are compulsory (and as far as I am aware there is a strong consensus against making them so) then there is no policy mechanism by which anyone can prohibit someone, even the creator, moving an article of any quality into the mainspace. An explicit consensus is, and in my opinion should continue to be, the only means by which an article can be returned to draftspace once it has been moved out of there (for any reason and regardless of article quality). Where the appropriate place to hold such discussions should be can be discussed, but at present consensus is that it is AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 21:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

So policy is what counts when it suits your POV ("there is no policy mechanism" etcetera), but when there is no policy to support your POV (on that redraftifying isn´t allowed and Afd the place to be) then no policy is needed apparently. There is, to use your words, no policy mechanism to prohibit me or anyone to redraftify an article. None. And considering that redraftifying is often done to keep shit articles (on perhaps notable subjects) out of yhe mainspace, I have no idea why you and a few others are so insistently claiming that by some miraculous, unknown process it already isn´t allowed. You are making Wikipedia worse, not better, with such dubious claims. Fram (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

There is [...] no policy mechanism to prohibit me or anyone to redraftify an article. incorrect - WP:MOVEWAR, WP:BRD, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:DRAFTOBJECT (and likely other polices, guidelines and/or essays) all say that that once an action has been objected to that you do not repeat that without consensus. If someone moves a page out of draftspace they are asserting that it is a notable subject, if there is a disagreement about whether a page is or is not notable then only consensus can settle the question. The place to determine consensus regarding the notability or otherwise of an article is AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 23:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a pattern I've seen come up repeatedly: a rule says (by one interpretation) X is disallowed, but you stumble across people doing X anyway and nobody stops them. The result is a de-facto technocracy, in which the rule (in this case against repeated moves to draftspace) only protects those who know it exists. For a while I criticized this trend, but I've come to realize it may actually be a reasonable governance model.

To be clear, the above is not just about draftification (although Fram is far from the only person who has draftified articles multiple times), but a general observation I decided needed to be made. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

DRAFTOBJECT is not an essay, but is small-p policy. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

If you have to invent some construct like "small-p policy" to win an argument... Fram (talk) 14:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Under what circumstances will an editor (in good standing, and not COI editor) objecting to a draftification be dismissed? I think in all cases, it should go to AfD, and in practice, does go to AfD. Policy documentation is supposed to document policy in practice, and this is policy in practice. Do you disagree with the practice, or disagree with the taggery (lack of) at WP:Drafts, or are you protesting a lack of formality, or RfC, in ratifying the documentation of current practice? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, for starters, draftobject has nothing about "in good standing" or "not COI" or any other such distinction. And no, I don´t believe it represents current practice, it represents what a number of editors want to be current practice, and what another group doesn´t follow. I often see pages I have moved to draft being moved back to draft by others afterwards, so I´m clearly not the only one to disregard this essay. Wikipedia usually is better of for it. Fram (talk) 06:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Fram, to inform this discussion, could you please link a few examples? SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

“In good standing” would mainly refer to editors evading their block or ban. To refer their mainspacing of a draft would be justified for that evasion.

WP:COIEDIT includes “you should put new articles through the Articles for Creation (AfC) process instead of creating them directly”. Reverting a COI mainspacing of a draft would be justified by COIEDIT.

Putting these things into DRAFTOBJECT would be to bloat it with redundancy. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Block or ban evasion should be g5, not draftified. And whether the essay draftobject applies to all drafts and editors should be clarified if you ever want it to become policy, as it looks to me as if some of the others here don´t care about distinguishing between coi or not, and want to blanket oppose any redraftification. I still have no idea why they are so adamant about putting dreadful articles in the mainspace though... Fram (talk) 16:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The ban-evading editor may have mainspaced someone else’s page, go G5 won’t always apply.

I do not want junk in mainspace. I am not adamantly opposed to redraftification, but am adamant that where there is disagreement, allowing caveats, WP:AfD should be used to resolve the disagreement.

Again, can you point to some examples of repeated unilateral draftification of the same page, where you think this was well done? SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no intention of throwing others under the bus here (not meaning that you would drive the bus, but in general) Fram (talk) 21:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

So, you are not personally bullying innocent good faith content writers into staying in draftspace. Whatever the taggery status of DRAFTOBJECT, it makes it easy for the new article writer to force their page to have its week at AfD. Can I presume that cases you have in mind don’t have authors who want to make their case at AfD? SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

You seem to presume a lot anyway, and coupled with the rather loaded question, I´ll let you go on with this and continue to do things my way. Considering how new article writers react to Afds, I´m rather amazed that you believe that draftifying is somehow bullying (even though editors have 6 months there to make their case, or longer if they continue to improve the page), but the 1 week do or die of Afd, which doesn´t say "your article has potential but isn´t good enough yet" but "we don´t want your article here" instead, is somehow the less confrontational, less bullying, more userfriendly option. Fram (talk) 07:33, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Me presume? I think that I am making an effort to guess what you are thinking and why you've written certain things. Actual examples would have helped, but if the examples are not yours, but others doing things that you see, I can accept that you want to not throw others under buses. I take it that what they have been doing is dubious, but you think that it is within policy.

Bullying? If a newcomer is repeatedly mainspacing a draft, and an old user repeatedly re-draftifies, this sounds like a move war. This would be intimidating to the newcomer.

WP:DRAFTOBJECT means that the twice mainspaced page needs to go to AfD for a consensus to draftify it it. The "more userfriendly option"? Can you show me an example of a userfriendly repeated draftification? SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

"Me presume? [...] I take it that what they have been doing is dubious". And feel free to read "less biting" instead of "more userfriendly" if that helps you understand the point. Fram (talk) 13:42, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

So, someone creates an article, someone else moves it to draft: per the policy posted by Thryduulf (only one of them was a policy, the others essays, but they don´t seem to care about the difference again and again), the problematic issue is the original editor moving it back to the mainspace, as they are the one violating WP:CONSENSUS and BRD. But this inconvenient fact is overlooked of course. Fram (talk) 08:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

If you don't like the policy feel free to get consensus to change it, but unless and until that consensus happens policy is what it is. Thryduulf (talk) 12:08, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Any reason you are posting this advice to yourself here? I like policy, and I actually know the difference between a policy and an essay. We have had this discussion before, at ANI, and I hoped you had learned your lesson then, but apparently not. Can you perhaps explain why you are so desperate to misinterpret policy (and present essays as policy again and again) when following your misinterpretations would only make Wikipedia worse? Fram (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring the unnecessary personalisation (which seems to be a common theme when you disagree with me), there are two problems with your comment, first my interpretation is the one in accordance with policy and with essays that have common acceptance, secondly the reason they have wide acceptance is that they don't make Wikipedia worse: if you think a particular article is not ready for mainspace but someone else disagrees it should be in draftspace then the second most harmful thing you can do for the encyclopaedia do is war over it (the most harmful being speedy deleting it out of process). If you have a disagreement with someone over something, policy, and essay say to discuss it, and policy says that the place to discuss disagreements over whether an article belongs in the main namespace is AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 13:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I personalise it because we had this discussion before, at ANI, after I was incorrectly blocked, and you produced the same incorrect claims there, including the complete disregard for the differences between policies and essays, which is very worrying for an admin. I´ll try to explain it once more, although I fear it will be mainly for the peanut gallery: creation if an article is Bold, moving it to draft is a Revert of that Bold creation, and shows that there is no Consensus for the existence of that article, in that form, in the mainspace. If the creator then puts the article back into the mainspace, then they are the ones not trying to find consensus, not discussing the dispute, not following policies. Fram (talk) 13:41, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I would say that regarding the creation of an article as a BOLD action is a rather novel interpretation of policy, but I don't think it would help given that I (and others) have explained current policy to you multiple times, shown you guideline and essays that back up the policy and explain why it is policy, and reminded you multiple times what to do if you disagree with policy, but you still feel the need to resort to personalising a dispute while ignoring everything. Thryduulf (talk) 13:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Fram; the status quo is that the article does not exist, and the creation is the WP:BOLD action. This applies to all creations but is more obvious if you consider a redirect being converted into an article. BilledMammal (talk) 14:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

No, Thryduulf, you have again and again pretended that Draftobject is policy. That is all you have done. The only policy you have linked to is wp:consensus. And of course, like here, you always ignore it when policies or guidelines contradict your prefered outcome in these discussions, but then again what else should I expect from an admin who claimed wp:iar could not be used when it broke a rule... Basically, feel free to proclaim your essay=policy as often as you want, I´ll continue to ignore this and you and go on with actually keeping peoblematic articles out of the mainspace. That way, we´ll both be happy. Fram (talk) 14:39, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

If we assume creating a page is a WP:BOLD action, and that page is then draftified and subsequently restored to mainspace, WP:BRD-NOT advises against repeating the draftification (BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. This applies equally to bold editors and to reverters. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider not reverting, but discussing. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones. The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD.). Garuda3 (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Only if no discussion was started at the time of the first move (preferably) or at the time of the second move. Fram (talk) 15:12, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

If any user in good standing does not want the page in draftspace, use AfD if you disagree. Whether the original mainspacer is knowingly asserting that point is a pretty small question. If in doubt, use AfD. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

This is pure wikilawyering. Draftspace was never intended to be mandatory and WP:BRD was never intended to apply to article creation. Removing of an article from the mainspace is not analogous to reverting an edit because it's irrevocable and unreviewable (albeit with a delay if it goes via draftspace) for non-admins. That's why we have a deletion policy that only allows undiscussed deletion in very limited circumstances. If it's okay for anyone to come along and block an article being in mainspace because there isn't a positive consensus for its creation, then why have we being wasting time with CSD, PROD, AfD, DRV, etc. for all these years? Why do we vote keep or delete at AfD instead of create or keep in draftspace? – Joe (talk) 14:01, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than I agree with Joe, Thryuulf, and SmokeyJoe. A second move to draftspace isn't ok, and an RM doesn't seem like the best way to handle it. Once we're starting a formal discussion, why not do it in a way that gets some outside attention, after all? Side note: I'd be more amenable to moves to draftspace [in certain cases] if it weren't a undiscriminating timed death trap for articles (useful for spam and nonsense, not so good for everything else). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

There is currently a proposal where promising drafts could be tagged with relevant Wikiprojects. This would extend the six month limit, and would make it easier for the relevant Wikiproject to identify relevant drafts. Would that help address the undiscriminating timed death trap for articles issue? BilledMammal (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Where is the proposal? It is an old fight. I don't have a firm opinion on it, preferring to recommend WP:DUD, and to say that if a WikiProject finds a draft promising, it should move the draft out of draftspace and into the WikiProject. And if an individual finds a promising draft, which will be more that six months before it likely becomes viable, they should userfy it and strip all afc taggery. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:39, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Cradlepoint Prod

I recently tried to prod the the Cradlepoint article but editor user:Explicit came in the edit summary "Declined PROD - previously deleted via PROD, ineligible again. Next step is WP:AFD". The decision seemed to be a bit odd as this is a brand new article. Its seems to have been deleted and recreated but I'm not sure and I can't see evidence for it. Is it not the case of because its a new article, it has its own state and therefore the prod would apply. I spoke Explicit who stated at User talk:Explicit#Cradlepoint: "Any page deleted via this process and then recreated is not subject to speedy deletion under criterion G4, as recreation is a way of contesting the proposed deletion". User:Marchjuly stated on the talkpage discussion: "any page deleted via Prod and then created is not subject to speedy deletion under G4". That would suggest its been deleted and recreated its not applicable under G4. G4 is not prod and I never G4'd it. Its a different process. I can't see how the article can't be prodded because the previous version was also prodded. I think the original prod should be have been applied and its a simple mistake. I done hundreds of prod and not heard anything about this. scope_creep^Talk 08:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The evidence that this has been deleted before is where you would expect to see it. And I'm rather surprised that you have never "heard anything about this" - it's right there in the lead section of WP:PROD and is referenced frequently. The reference to G4 seems to be a trivial mistake. Just take the article to AfD. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:PROD seems extremely clear that prod may only be used once per article. The only exception regarding deletion is a new article that has no connection to a previously deleted page at the same title, which is not relevant here. Thryduulf (talk) 16:30, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I think my post on Explicit's talk page should be looked at in it's entirely and not just as one blurb. The entirety of what I posted was The link Explicit provided has an extra number sign, and it should be WP:PROD#cite_note-8 instead. My reading of that particular note is that "any page deleted via Prod [this process] and then [re]created is not subject to speedy deletion under G4". I think it explicitly only mentions G4 because by definition an article can only be prodded for deletion once so there's no need to explicitly state the obvious. An article which has been deleted via prod which is subsequently recreated is, in my opinion, essentially no different form an article being de-prodded prior to being deleted. Prod deletions are considered to be WP:SOFTDELETEs and soft-deleted articles can be restored upon request or simply recreated if someone wants to do so, even in bad faith. So, unless there are any other CSD reasons for deletion the second time around, policy seems to imply that the article should go to AfD. Perhaps my reading is incorrect, but my intended point was that an article can only be prodded once regardless of who deprodded it or why they did so. No reason even needs to be given per WP:DEPROD. When an administrator declines a prod, they are essentially deprodding it themselves. They are making an assessment that further discussion is needed. Even if their reasoning for declining the prod is incorrect, it would still seem to be a "valid" deprod. Now, perhaps in a case like this it might be a good idea for a WP:HISTMERGE so that the previous prod is visible in the recreated article's page history. It might also have helped if an {{Old prod}} template for the first prod had been added to the recreated article's talk page. My guess is that user who recreated the article either didn't think about any of that or felt it was unnecessary. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Are WP:TEMPLATEs subject to the policy?

Are the Wikipedia templates pages regulated by Policies and guidelines? To what extent if yes? Please refer me to existing discussions if I'm missing something. I couldn't find any topics on this in the archives myself. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 11:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• It depends on which specific template and policy you are talking about. Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Some policies apply to all templates in the same way they apply to other pages (e.g. Wikipedia:Consensus), some polices apply to all templates in some way but not necessarily the same way (e.g. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not), some policies apply to templates in a specific way that is different to (but may overlap with) how they apply to other pages (e.g. Wikipedia:Deletion policy), some policies apply to some templates but not others (e.g. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), and others are completely irrelevant to templates (e.g. Wikipedia:Banning policy). Thryduulf (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Please take a look at my reply below, thanks! AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:20, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alexander Davronov, an overall policy is WP:CONSENSUS when it comes to content disputes about templates as well as about articles. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for steps to take if discussion at Template talk:Unix commands doesn't work. Or you can write a template that includes a different set. The French and German equivalents to that template each have a different approach. StarryGrandma (talk) 21:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

StarryGrandma Strictly speaking it wasn't about that specific template but thanks anyway! AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 21:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

We can’t really answer the question without context. Could you be more specific, which templates and which policies are you discussing? Blueboar (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Well I'm interested in broader consensus on what applies where. To be more specific, do you think that WP:RS should be applicable to {{Unix commands}}?

And further example: what if some template {{FOO}} is placed onto a page of a living person that may classify it in some way? What then? Would be WP:RS applicable? Should we treat templates as part of articles and apply the same rules as ones applied to the article itself? I think we need consensus on this. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by "apply"? Levivich (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Levivich: By "apply" I mean that rules of the given policy are enforced upon content of the template itself. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 07:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alexander Davronov We can't reach a consensus on something that abstract because templates take many forms and apply to articles in very different ways. For example {{Citation needed}}, {{infobox person}}, {{Cite book}}, {{Use American English}}, {{AfD}}, {{close paraphrasing}}, {{weasel-inline}} and more could all appear on the same BLP article but all have very different relevance to and interaction with WP:RS, let alone any other policy. Thryduulf (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: Establishing a guideline outline preferred dimensions (aspect ratio) for images in the inboxes for biographies and elections

Moved to the proposal pump SecretName101 (talk) 17:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the MOS:IMGSIZE would be a right place to start with. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 07:32, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Don’t move to draft perfunctory!

You should not move articles to draft space just for them being new and unfinished!

I created an article and it was moved to draft almost immediately, Draft:Raksila Artificial Ice Rink Pakkalan kenttä. The reason given was, that there were no sources. OK, fine, I understand. So I add sources. It’s done in an hour. Now, to have the article un-draftified, it will likely take months, or so it at least says in the information box provided.

Wouldn’t it be better to just contact me and ask me to add sources to the very new article I had written? (If you feel you cannot do it yourself.)

I think draft ought to be used only for articles which we have given some time to become better, with reasonable suggestions to the writer, but the article still hasn’t become better. Bandy långe (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bandy långe, articles done directly in main space should be reader-ready from the beginning. Start articles either in a user sandbox or in Draft space. You can move them to main space yourself when they are ready. Review is optional for autoconfirmed users like yourself. StarryGrandma (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@StarryGrandma, so? Please comment on the topic in stead of giving advice not asked for. Wikipedia does not work the way you seem to think, articles are not created ready from the start. The whole point is that this encyclopedia is a collaborative effort where people write things together. Bandy långe (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bandy långe, you seem to have missed the part where StarryGrandma says you don't have to wait for months for it to be undraftified, you can just move it to mainspace yourself. And I'm curious why you would publish an article to mainspace before adding the sources you used to write it? JoelleJay (talk) 02:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

She did not say that. She said that if I had started the article in draft or in a sandbox, I could then move it to main space myself, not if someone else moved it to draft. Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how it got to draftspace, you can always move it back to mainspace as an autoconfirmed user. JoelleJay (talk) 19:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

If I'm reading the timestamps right, the article was in mainspace for seven hours before being draftified. This is well above the minimum guidance at WP:NPP. Also, if you object to the draftification, you should just move it back to mainspace using the more menu, then clicking move. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

No, it says it should stay in draft space until it has been reviewed. As far as I understand the information, you are not even supposed to approve the article while it is there (but I did that in a way anyway, by adding the sources; I suppose I should appologise for that). It is therefor generally considered better, I suppose, to have it in draft spce limbo for months than to just remind the writer to add references to it. Do you mean I am not obliged to wait for a review? Won’t it just be moved back to draft if I overrule the person moving it to draft by moving it back? Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

No, it says it should stay in draft space until it has been reviewed. As far as I understand the information, you are not even supposed to approve the article while it is there (but I did that in a way anyway, by adding the sources; I suppose I should appologise for that). Where are you finding this very incorrect information? None of the policies or guidelines related to draftspace say any of that. JoelleJay (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a good demonstration of Wikipedia's unreliability. First, the OP treats this site as a blog, posting something or other without any backing. Because, the sources will-appear (?) soon (?). Then, the blogger expects others to come and validate the "contribution", doing the hard work. However, as anyone that ever contributed facts in Wikipedia knows, the wikitext and its sourcing are intimately linked, and both the substance and the presentation of an article depend on the context and the content of the sources supporting it. And that is even before applying conceptually higher-level policies such as NPOV and impartiality.

I can't see how one can offer a coherent article without simultaneously adding a minimum of basic sources. Off to draftspace, come back when the article has something to say. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 13:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

You got it wrong. Maybe it’sbecause you are a casual visitor to Wikipedia, not having a login, so you don’t know how this works. It is the person who sends an article to be reviewed in draft space, who thinks someone else should take care of it. He thinks the person who started the article should not continue working on it, but that it should be reviewed by others within some months. You should read about what Wikipedia draft is. Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bandy långe, you are conflating "review" in the New Page Patrol sense (as is linked in the draftification notice) with "review" in the WP:AfC sense. NPP reviews all articles created by non-autopatrolled editors, but a review is not required to remain in or move a draft to mainspace. AfC is a completely different process for submitting articles into mainspace and is not necessary for autoconfirmed users. You can bypass AfC completely by moving the article yourself.

As for He thinks the person who started the article should not continue working on it, I have no idea where you got this idea. The draftification notice explicitly says you can continue working on the draft: Your article is now a draft where you can improve it undisturbed for a while. JoelleJay (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

§ Don’t move to draft perfunctory!

You should not move articles to draft space just for them being new and unfinished!

It seems you object to your mainspace post being drafted in the first place. Your draftspace-related lecture is a newer thing. You claim to know something that should be published in Wikipedia. We want to know why. Don't reply to me or anybody; just add reliable references. There, situation resolved. 65.88.88.59 (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bandy långe: Wikipedia articles in article space are often a work in progress. But to exist in article space they need to meet the "Is an article of this topic allowed to exist in mainspace?" criteria which is mostly/usually WP:Notability. And usually this means supplying 2 (maybe one) GNG type sources. It will inevitably get reviewed regarding this by New Page Patrol. IMO it is good practice and a reasonable expectation that new articles in mainspace (at least within an hour) include GNG type sourcing to establish wp:notability and that they reside somewhere else as a draft until they have that GNG sourcing. But if it meets those criteria, IMO it is OK to be in mainspace regardless of the amount of work needed in other areas. And when it meets those criteria, you can move it yourself, you don't need to wait. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Really? The information about the draft space and the need for draft review suggests otherwise, I think. Bandy långe (talk) 19:47, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bandy långe What information about draft space and draft review are you reading/looking at that makes you think otherwise? Perhaps there's some policy page or guideline that needs to be clarified. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Not sure even which part of my post they are talking about. If it's the "you can move it" part, I think that boilerplate text on one of the draftify templates falsely implies otherwise; maybe that is where Bandy långe's impression came from. North8000 (talk) 20:55, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Editors that use this draftification script (including me) are given default language to use on the article creator's user talk page. It ends with "When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page."Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The OP has identified a common problem. Editors who have made 10 edits and whose accounts are more than a few days old have the ability to create articles directly in the mainspace, and also the ability to move articles out of the Draft: namespace. However, almost none of them know this.

I suspect that the more active reviewers don't actually want this to be well known. If they have to personally approve everything, then the mainspace will always meet their standards of being "reader ready". If (almost) anyone can move pages, and they know it, then the mainspace will inevitably be sullied by all of these WP:IMPERFECT articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The draftification script is deceptive/wrong. It says that when you're ready "click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page"" thus implying that that is THE (=only) next step. And most editors will assume that such is authoritative or based on some rule. BTW I think that you you made some pretty incorrect and negative assumptions about active reviewers. NPP reviewers mostly want to just get the review done, and "perfection" isn't the standard. I think that AFC reviews are a lot tougher only because the the system coerces the reviewers to be overly cautious and thus tough. A AFC approval is implicitly a stamp of approval of everything about the article. A NPP approval is implicitly less, something along the lines of "an article of this topic is allowed to exist in article space" North8000 (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I think that AFC reviews are a lot tougher only because the the system coerces the reviewers to be overly cautious and thus tough. Might not even be this. AFC is similar to NPP except AFC doesn't do WP:BEFORE. AFC requires all sources to be evaluated to already be in the article. This makes it de facto slightly tougher than NPP. The rest is very similar. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I think that what you said is structurally true and how it should be, but not true in practice. I think that in practice, an AFC approval is defacto sort of the reviewer signing off that the overall article has no significant problems, which is a broader and tougher standard than NPP. While a NPP'er may tag an article for other quality issues, the reasons for failing an article are much narrower. Another reason for this is that failure at NPP is a more "severe" act (AFD or the reviewer moving the article out of article space etc.) than an AFC reviewer just saying that it needs more work and re-submittal. North8000 (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Galactica and RS

Platform 9¾ at King's Cross Station

Meta's Galactica seems to be able to rapidly generate WP pages, although at present they're going to be relatively easy to identify as fake. Presumably they're going to get better in the future.

My question is really about the fake references it might generate and how we are going to better protect ourselves against fake content, fake notability and fake RS. For me, one of the great weaknesses of AfD discussions has always been the possibility of printed RS which exist on a dusty library shelf. If we have AI that can generate plausible looking book references, isn't it going to be an increasing challenge to identify completely fraudulent pages? JMWt (talk) 10:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Well how are fake but plausible-seeming references generated by organic intelligence dealt with now? I wouldn't overwork myself trying to find out. There is no formal validation of citations for accuracy or relevance in Wikipedia, and there is no other metric that will help the answer. It is left to the community to haphazardly and erratically certify references, at least outside of vanity projects like so-called "good" or "featured" articles. If anything the pre-seed of native AI present now (the relationship of relevant Wikidata properties with article verification policies/guidelines) when applied is likely to make things worse, as there is no context validation of Wikidata data to begin with. 65.88.88.68 (talk) 16:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

And on the other hand, there's Assigning Numbers. RAN1 (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@JMWt, is your concern that the machine-learning system will write a book, that book will get published somewhere/by someone, and the book will be cited in Wikipedia? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing I think it is more plausible that some machine learning system generates references that look like very old books that would take a lot of effort to check. I don't think it needs to get to the stage of actually publishing anything to be a problem. JMWt (talk) 08:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The question posed was not answered: why are machines producing articles with inappropriate references a bigger concern than humans doing so? Some of the latter may be doing so now, undetected. And does it matter what kind of entity publishes misinformation? In any case compiling an encyclopedia is a mechanical process, there is nothing creative about it. Non-human machines will be able to replicate it easily. 69.203.140.37 (talk) 14:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@JMWt, if the machine-generated pseudo-book isn't published, then how would a Wikipedia editor have access to its contents?

69.203, at some point, quantity becomes its own quality. A human who types all day without stopping (e.g., to interview anyone or to double-check facts) can usually only produce a volume of text equal to about one book a week. A room full of computers could produce a book a minute without stopping. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Wasn't there a recent convoluted discussion/RFC about mass article production/publishing articles at scale? 64.18.11.71 (talk) 01:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Galactica can generate convincing looking references. An editor could just machine-generate a whole WP page including the refs. All completely bogus. Maybe I'm missing some detail that you are asking me? JMWt (talk) 11:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@JMWt, Are you concerned about ghost references ("nothing remotely resembling the content appears in this real source") and hoax citations ("There is no Platform 9¾ at King's Cross Station, so your content can't be supported by a source located there")? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Galactica was, I think, creating completely bogus references. If they are recent, we can probably identify them with a search of the ISDN or DOI. If they are old, that's going to be nearly impossible. It might also be copying real references and claiming they contain facts that they don't. Both are a problem, no? JMWt (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Given how much research has been done (for five or ten years now) on matching newspaper articles to Wikipedia statements, I wonder why they would bother creating a hoax citation. Just to see if the software could mimic the style, with plausible content? But they could plug in the other system, and get real citations to real sources. There'd be some limits on accuracy ("A traffic problem of nightmarish proportions occurred when Joe Film stopped to sign an autograph and a clamoring crowd of thousands formed around the star. Police were called charged the actor with Pranks without a Permit in the third degree": a simple software program could find "Joe Film" and "traffic", but might not be able to figure out whether it should be written to suggest guilt, innocence, or even whether it's worth including.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

What is wrong with word "American" and "British"?

Why people write "UK version" and "US version" over "British version" and "American version". Why not "FR version" instead of "French version"? UK is an abbreviation so the full version would be "United Kingdom version"? Eurohunter (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

because they want to? how is this a policy question --Golbez (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Aren't "UK" and "US" acronyms? 50.75.226.250 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:49, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The United Kingdom and Great Britain aren't exactly the same places, the same as the United States and the Americas aren't the same. But, we should follow what the sources say. This isn't a policy discussion though. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Not exactly parallel. American used as an adjective in English (as opposed to americano in Spanish) almost always refers to the United States (with a few exceptions like the Organization of American States). America is not quite as one-sided, but as a stand-alone noun also usually means the United States. We have an article at American (word). --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Golbez: What they want and who are they? @Lee Vilenski: Citizens of the United Kingdom are British and citizens of the United States are Americans so they are actually British and American. "Follow what the sources say" doesn't makes sense - it's like saying use "French Republic" after source - no we would say just "France" describing the country in most cases. Eurohunter (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The Northern Irish would have to disagree with your assessment. Sources don't say "French Republic", why would they? Please provide such references. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Try going to Glasgow and telling people they're not Scottish but have to use British. See WP:UKNATIONALS, there no good solution that covers all bases. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

No, they aren't acronyms. An acronym is an abbreviation that is pronounced as if it were a word. That is, "UK" would be an acronym if it were pronounced to rhyme with "buck", but it isn't. It is pronounced "U-K". Georgia guy (talk) 02:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary and Wikipedia's acronym article don't agree with you. Both say that acronyms may either be pronounced as single words or as individual letters. CodeTalker (talk) 06:30, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Yuck. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

And my opinion of the OED just dropped precipitously. I don't expect any more from Wikipedia, but Oxford disappoints me. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The OED has always rightly followed usage, rather than being prescriptive. Johnbod (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I am nearly 50 years old and I had never come across anyone calling things like FBI "acronyms" before about 10 years ago. And even then it was from people who commonly made obvious errors such as confusing it's/its, to/too/two, or (mindbogglingly) ancestor/descendant. So, not the sorts of "usage" I would expect any dictionary to lend support to. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, the OED has a citation of "acronym" used with letters pronounced separately in 1940, so it's hardly a recent usage, despite what you've personally come across. The first citation for the meaning "pronounced as a word" is later, in 1943. CodeTalker (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Yep, and in British English, acronyms that are pronounced as words are often written with only an initial capital letter (i.e., Nato or Nasa), but if its an initialism and each letter is pronounced (i.e., DCMS or FBI) it's written all uppercase (regardless of whether or not points are used). — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

An acronym is single word/abbreviation made of the first letter(s) of each word. It's got nothing to do with pronunciation. FBI is an acronym and no one pronounces it as "fbee". Unlike, say J. Phys. Chem. which isn't an acronym, because it's not a single word. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I wonder whether acronyms should be considered abbreviations. First, they apply to multiple terms. Secondly, since they regularly use only one letter they bear no discernible relationship to the word they represent. Rendered without the dot separator between characters, they could be defined as initial-letter concatenations of multiple words. 65.88.88.237 (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

It's a continuum: All initialisms are acronyms and all acronyms are abbreviations, but not all abbreviations are acronyms and not all acronyms are initialisms. — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

This is getting convoluted, but apparently not all linguists consider initialisms to be acronyms, and the word's etymology (from the Greek compound "edge/end"+"name") seems to imply a distinct term named from end-of-word letters. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that etymology. The OED shows it coming from initial + -ism (first use around 1899) and initial coming from the Latin initiālis from the Latin initium, meaning 'beginning', and referring to the beginning of each word in a phrase (i.e., its initials). Oops, sorry just realized you were referring to acronym's etymology. — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 21:24, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Support acronyms and initialisms. 98.246.75.122 (talk) 05:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Support... What? There's no proposal here. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Support supporting when there is no proposal. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Oppose supporting supporting in general, although I  Support opposing supporting. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Political propaganda untruths

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article is full of slanders. Marjorie Taylor Greene — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenHistory (talk • contribs) 14:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

What is your policy-related question?

Generally, if it bothers you too much, attempt to fix it. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, the article has a WP:BLUELOCK. However, BenHistory, you can suggest changes, inline with WP:s policies and guidelines, and supported by WP:RS, at Talk:Marjorie Taylor Greene. Good luck! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Child safe searches

should wikipedia searches be child safe 23.115.40.162 (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Generally, this will be not the case because of the policy WP:REDACTION and I don't expect you'll see any momentum to change that. If this is important to you, the best idea is probably a client-side solution like web filtering software. Jahaza (talk) 03:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The very first problem with something like this defining what is meant be "child safe" in some objective way, and the second problem is getting consensus on a single definition given that everybody has different ideas about what children should and shouldn't be able to see. One common suggestion is basing it on something like articles in Category:Sex. However, that would cover articles that most people find innocuous such as ZW sex-determination system, Golden calf, List of female Nobel laureates and Wildflower. Restricting it to the top-level of the category but not subcategories would block Female and Sex segregation but not Sexual intercourse or Paedophilia. Thryduulf (talk) 15:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Thryduulf is correct that there is no universal definition of what "child safe" means. For example, the general consensus in the United States seems to be that violence is OK, but nudity is not. I would argue exactly the opposite. I'm sure you have your own idea of what's acceptable and what's not.

I like the way IMDB does this. Rather than assign ratings, reviewers describe specific things which are depicted in the films. "'Balls' is said once in a vulgar context." "Several positive characters are killed or mortally wounded on-screen during the movie, which may be disturbing for the audience.", "we see their backsides ... quite a bit". I think there's a great opportunity for a third-party rating service along these lines. Build a database and invite people to describe potentially objectionable aspects of articles. Expose these ratings though a publicly accessible API. Now, somebody could build a search tool which sits on top of Mediawiki's own search API and uses your ratings API to provide filtering according to criteria you select. "Don't show any articles which contain pictures of human nudity". "Don't show any articles which describe violence". "Don't show any articles which contain any of this list of words".

I don't believe content filtering is something wikipedia should be involved in. But our licensing and API availability make it possible for people to do their own. It's not a trivial undertaking, but there's nothing that's fundamentally difficult about it. A proof-of-concept would be a reasonable semester project for an undergraduate software engineering course. The hardest part is getting enough quality crowd-sourced data, but that would be true no matter who implements it. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

And What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not censored is policy. I will note that section of the policy was originally entitiled "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors", so the policy that we do not censor the contents of Wikipedia to protect children goes back to the very early days of Wikipedia, and would require a major shift in one of the fundamental policies of the project. Donald Albury 15:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Any sort of search where things were censored would have to be external, as we are WP:NOTCENSORED. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

If you want a version of Wikipedia that is safe(er) for kids, try Kiddle. They take our freely licensed content, censor and rewrite it so that it is more kid-friendly, and republish it under a free license. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Fifteen years ago, when I was running the library/computer center/network at a small school, I added a similar "kid-friendly" WP clone site to the school's computers. Good to know that something similar is still around. Donald Albury 16:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T306246

Perhaps the OP is referring to the new and "improved" search bar in Vector-2022. Go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?useskin=vector-2022, and try searching for "analgesic". But type very slowly, letting the page update after each letter. Readers (whether children or adults) should not have NSFW content WP:GRATUITOUSly forced on them like that. Search for the name of a body part, click on the article, and you should expect to see a picture of that body part. But not any page with a common prefix. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, we should be filtering search suggestions, as I think Google and others do, to avoid this problem. I haven't looked but I bet there's already a phab ticket and it's probably years old. Levivich (talk) 02:21, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

The challenge with filtering is that you'd have to start classifying articles as ineligible for inclusion in search autosuggest, and I'm not sure if there's already an easy classification to re-use. You could specify certain categories, but those are always subject to change and it would be easy for anyone to troll autosuggest by adding/removing the relevant categories from their article of interest. The major search engines do this with a combination of algorithmic analysis and human-curated lists, and I foresee both practical issues and editor drama from trying something like that here. Taking the "analgesic" example above, I see that analgesic does appear immediately below the potentially NSFW result. If people are truly searching for "analgesic" on a large scale, then a better ranking implementation would go a long way to solving this issue without getting into filtering and classification. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree, ranking is probably better than filtering, but I don't think it will be difficult to come up with a list of naughty words and phrases to exclude from autosuggest. And also, it wouldn't be hard to have a "safe search" toggle like Google has, either, so people can filter or not filter results. And we could turn safe search on for school IP ranges. Levivich (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Let's please not go down the road of automatic censorship for schools. When a school kid wonders if their penis is normal and comes to us looking for pictures to compare against, we should be showing them pictures of penises. Because if we don't, they'll go elsewhere to find the information they seek.

Google operates under a different set of constraints than we do. Google makes money by selling advertising displayed as part of their search results. When Walmart says, "We won't spend any of our huge advertising budget here if our ads show up next to pictures of penises", Google listens. And they build tools like "safe search" to placate advertisers like Walmart. That's not an issue here. -- RoySmith (talk) 04:05, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, I was talking about the images that will soon appear in the search the suggestions on desktop, and already appear on mobile. I don't think links to any article should be hidden from the suggestions. But showing File:Wiki-analsex.png to everyone who searches for a subject starting with "ana"? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:31, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, from reading phab:T306246, it looks like we might be able to take care of that ourselves, through MediaWiki:Pageimages-denylist. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:45, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Strongly disagree with the idea of censoring encyclopeic content or supporting any third-party efforts to do so. Wiki articles are not movies, and any effort to assign movie-style labels or ratings to articles would inevitably be misused to deny access to articles like sexual intercourse in public libraries and other institutions. –dlthewave ☎ 13:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Standard for harmful content on user pages

There's been some debate regarding what constitutes harmful content in userspace and what's considered disruptive or inflammatory. Personally, I've leaned toward not allowing any sort of strong political expression, seeing it as inherently disruptive. I'd like to suggest a compromise:

Users may not advocate or endorse the violation of any rights described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This declaration of human rights was written in 1948 in response to the Holocaust, and it's the most widely agreed upon list of human rights. Advocating the violation of human rights would be a very obvious way to determine whether a user has crossed a line, and it aligns with the current policies against Nazism, sexism, pro-slavery, etc. To respond to what I expect would be the primary concern: no, it's not a precise standard. There would still be discussions about what is and isn't acceptable. But it would be significantly more precise than the current standard of gut feeling and WP:IDONTLIKEIT, giving a clear foundation for these discussions that currently doesn't exist. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:13, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

pinging WaltCip because you've posted about this problem a few times. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:14, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

My personal line for this sort of thing is having/advocating content on user pages that is negative toward groups of people. Though I could also see extending it toward political content. But the Universal Declaration does seem fine as a baseline. Silverseren^C 21:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Unless one feels UDHR is another worthless feelgood statement, good only for decorum, legal and political grandstanding and for making gullible people believing there is/will be some sort of "progress". Let's pretend that most of the signatories have not once violated any of the enumerated rights since the document was signed. One may realistically consider it a failure, just like its sponsoring institution. It is interesting that it was proposed only a few years after civilized, well-educated and democratically elected people used nuclear weapons (twice) on civilian targets. This is not an anti-American statement, or even a political one, it is factual. That fact (that universal human rights can easily be violated by well-meaning people) never meaningfully entered the discourse around that document. The fact being ignored, keeps reappearing, over and over. 104.247.55.106 (talk) 21:55, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

One of said rights is 'freedom to hold opinions without interference'. Does this include the right to hold opinions incompatible with the Declaration? I think we may have encountered a paradox... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

The paradox exists only because the document exists. Otherwise any opinion is just that, an opinion. There was a quote by Brecht about calling an overflowing river "violent", when the banks that constrain it define the overflow. 104.247.55.106 (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most people haven't read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, much less ponder its contents or its message, so I doubt this would be a very effective rule. I'm with AndyTheGrump on this one. But moreover, I think any potential RfC focused on userboxes with political or divisive content needs to focus on being an all-or-nothing affair, specifically to prevent posses from running MfD and determining what is and isn't allowable. I don't see there being much compromise available beyond that. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 00:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

I bet i could get my userpage deleted just by selective quoting of the Articles. fiveby(zero) 01:03, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

That likely won't fly, considering that the Islamic world rejected the UDHR and drafted the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam in its place to remove referenced to religious freedom. 2603:7080:8F02:2B11:D13C:AE3B:86FB:FB29 (talk) 15:16, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

IP vandalism guideline

I want to make IP vandalism a guideline. I have already made the page. SpyridisioAnnis Discussion 15:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)