Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV	Resolved	Avi8tor (t)	21 days, 11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	8 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	8 days, 2 hours
Norse Deity pages	Closed	Dots321 (t)	14 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 4 hours
List of South Korean girl groups	Closed	98Tigerius (t)	13 days, 19 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 10 hours
Benevolent dictatorship	In Progress	Banedon (t)	12 days, 23 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	7 hours	Banedon (t)	2 hours
Talk:Taylor Swift	Closed	Gsgdd (t)	12 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	12 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	12 days, 2 hours
Kylie Minogue	Closed	PHShanghai (t)	10 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 9 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 9 hours
African diaspora	Closed	Kyogul (t)	7 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 2 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 00:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:ZX Spectrum_graphic_modes#Summary_of_the_discussion_so_far

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Z80Spectrum on 19:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:ZX Spectrum graphic modes#Summary of the discussion so far (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Z80Spectrum (talk · contribs)
• Chaheel Riens (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Everything happened on the talk page of the article "ZX Spectrum graphic modes". Multiple parts of the talk page were removed by Chaheel Riens, in a single edit, abruptly and without any prior consultations with anyone. Those parts were present on the talk page for two months, and were agreed as OK by another long-time editor of the page (4throck), perhaps not in entirety, but he gave positive opinion at least for some parts. Most of the removed parts were written by the user Z80Spectrum. Note: he registered today, previously he used IP addresses 80.80.52.*. An important part of the removed content is a computation of the ZX Spectrum palette into sRGB color-space. Note that the ARTICLE still contains some data which is the result of the said computation; such is since 2 months ago. Chaheel Riens claims that multiple policies were broken, including WP:FORUM, WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO. Z80Spectrum claims that Chaheel Riens is misinterpreting the policies, and provides counter arguments. User Remsense then joins into the discussion (by himself, previously not involved). He discusses with Z80Spectrum. Z80Spectrum argues that WP:OR does not apply due to triviality (WP:CALC), and that he is just improving accuracy, since previous data was equally WP:OR, but less accurate. Noone is disputing the accuracy of new computation. User 4throck is the author of the old computation, and he agreed two months ago that the new computation is more accurate. Chaheel Riens thinks he doesn't need to post any additional counter arguments to Z80Spectrum's arguments. Z80Spectrum claims that such conduct constitutes a fallacy of "proof by assertion". The discussion is quite long, but the central and most important part is in the first 11 posts after the "Summary of the discussion so far".

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ZX_Spectrum_graphic_modes#Summary_of_the_discussion_so_far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ZX_Spectrum_graphic_modes#Someone_has_just_deleted_all_of_my_suggestions

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think that an opinion about alleged violations of WP:FORUM, WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO could persuade involved parties. It should include opinion whether those policies were violated. Perhaps a few short instructions what should be done with the removed content, one of: - revert entirely - revert some parts or a summary needs to be written - the removed parts should stay removed

Summary of dispute by Chaheel Riens

User is new to Wikipedia, and doesn't yet appreciate or understand the admittedly many different policies and processes that are in place - both official and informal, but doesn't seem willing to learn before jumping in - WP:BOLD notwithstanding.

Additions to the talk page fell foul of WP:FORUM, WP:NOTHOWTO, WP:OR, WP:OWN, and I removed them. Another editor (Remsense) has also expressed concern over the user's edits, both content and tone, but asked not to be involved in DRN so isn't listed here.

User is extremely verbose, and often meets WP:TLDR, making it difficult to follow and reply, and as it's been established that English isn't their first language, several statements have been antagonistic and rude in tone - not directly related to the issue at hand, but it does make communication strained.

This is not just a DR about the article, but is rooted in the editors actual behaviour. I've left templates on talk pages, added comments and advice, but the user is making changes without understanding why things are done the way they are done, and expects all to agree to their terms.

I removed detail from the Talk:ZX Spectrum graphic modes page here as I believe it breaches WP:FORUM, WP:NOTHOWTO and WP:OR. User Z80Spectrum - the author of the comments - thinks differently. Discussion has made no real progress.

Talk:ZX Spectrum_graphic_modes#Summary_of_the_discussion_so_far discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Thank you, moderator. Unfortunately, I'm confused by the UI, so I don't know what to do next. Is there something I should do, or do I just need to wait a bit more? Also, to make this quicker, I think that I do not want DRN Rule A (but I'm not sure). The reason: I would like to avoid locking the disputed article, because my estimate is that there is no edit war. I just want to hear an opinion of an experienced party. - Z80Spectrum - Z80Spectrum (talk) 21:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (ZX Spectrum)

I have two questions for the editors. The first question is whether you are requesting moderated discussion in accordance with DRN Rule A. Moderated discussion is voluntary. Moderated discussion at DRN will only be about article content. User conduct will not be discussed. Often the resolution or orderly discussion of article content issues can permit user conduct issues to subside. If an editor really wants to discuss user conduct, they should first read the boomerang essay and then report the conduct issue at WP:ANI, but then this case will be closed, because we do not discuss issues involving the same article in two forums at once. An editor who does want moderated discussion of content should answer the second question. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So please state concisely what sections or paragraphs of the article you want to change (or what you want left the same that another editor wants to change). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (ZX Spectrum)

Thank you moderator. I would prefer WP:DRN Rule B. If there are some good reasons not to use DRN Rule B, then I will consent to WP:DRN Rule A.

My opinion is that this is a dispute about article content, because the allegations of policy violations on the talk page directly affect the part of the article about colors, specifically the preferred simulated colors and values in the color-table [1], and also affect allowed or preferred methods to generate most images in the article, i.e. most images in the article are also in dispute. Z80Spectrum (talk) 07:49, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer the color-table and the related colors to stay the same as they currently are. I would prefer that the first image in the article stays as it currently is (more precisely, the methods of creation of that image should stay the same, while the content of the image is irrelevant). I would prefer that other images in the article are eventually modified (to use my preferred methods of creation), although this is neither necessary nor urgent. Z80Spectrum (talk) 08:01, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Besides this, I would like a definitive opinion of an expert whether WP:FORUM, WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO were violated, and whether the related discussion should stay on the talk page or should it be removed, so that this same argument does not need to be repeated over and over again. Z80Spectrum (talk) 08:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I removed detail from the Talk:ZX Spectrum graphic modes page here as I believe it breaches WP:FORUM, WP:NOTHOWTO and WP:OR. User Z80Spectrum - the author of the comments - thinks differently. Discussion has made no real progress. This is a content dispute brought on by differing interpretations of policies named. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (ZX Spectrum)

One editor has asked if we can use DRN Rule B rather than DRN Rule A. Rule B allows back-and-forth discussion. Since discussion does not appear to have become repetitive, I am willing to agree to DRN Rule B. However, they say that they want Rule B to avoid locking the article. Please read DRN Rule B again. See rule B.4. Rule B permits back-and-forth discussion, but I do not currently have a rule that leaves the article unlocked. Cases at DRN almost always involve an article that at least one editor wants to change. If a dispute does not involve changing an article, maybe it should be somewhere other than DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

One editor writes:

I would like a definitive opinion of an expert whether WP:FORUM, WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO were violated, and whether the related discussion should stay on the talk page or should it be removed, so that this same argument does not need to be repeated over and over again.

Well, DRN is not a place to ask for a "definitive opinion of an expert", and I don't think that happens in Wikipedia, but the real question appears to be that User:Chaheel Riens removed 26 Kilobytes of material from the talk page that was inserted by an unregistered editor who was probably User:Z80Spectrum. I have read the Talk Page Guidelines and advise the other editors to read them. Maybe Chaheel Riens interprets the Talk Page Guidelines differently than I do. They are not clearly written. However, it is my opinion that the removal of material posted by another editor to an article talk page is only allowed under unusual circumstances, and those circumstances were not present. So the removal of the large amount of talk page material was an error. However, talk page conduct is a conduct issue, and DRN is not a conduct forum. I have no authority to reinsert the removed material.

It is not clear whether Chaheel Riens is willing to discuss article content. It is also not clear whether Z80Spectrum wants to discuss article content. If both editors want to discuss article content, they should state what changes they want to make to the article. If they do not both agree to DRN Rule B, I will close this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I'm applying WP:FORUM point 4 - In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article, nor are they a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines and WP:NOTGUIDE, where I believe the posts removed breaches point 1, and possibly 6, 7 & 8. As you say - They are not clearly written and seem to be written in an exclusive style, rather than an inclusive one. Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (ZX Spectrum)

1. I agree to either [DRN Rule A] or [DRN Rule B], but I would prefer [DRN Rule B].
2. I am willing to discuss the content of the color-table [2], and the images in the article.
3. The DRN states: "we focus on resolving disputes through [...] advice about policy." I would like to hear an advice about policies WP:FORUM, WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO, related to the objections that the other editor has raised on the talk page [3] about the contended parts of the article.

Z80Spectrum (talk) 13:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

About changes that I, or other editors, want to (posssibly) make to the article, they are outlined in the removed parts of the talk page: here [4], here [5] and in the last three posts of this thread [6]. Z80Spectrum (talk) 13:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have come here under threat by Z80Spectrum who posted on my talk page - you have to answer Robert's questions. Otherwise, you leave me no choice but to report you to WP:AN. There I can also blame you for not attempting to WP:NEGOTIATE - however looking at the article history shows that I'm the last person to edit this section anyway - here, where I stated my reasoning. I'm not sure what else is required from me at this point.

I think the main problem here is that the issue covers so many different points that a single DR may not be adequate. It's not just about the content removal, but also the behaviour of Z80 Spectrum once it had been done, and the interpretation of policies that led to the removal and disagreement. If Robert thinks that this is the wrong place to cover the issue(s), then close it and let's try elsewhere. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Moderator, I have read your comment at WP:ANI [7]. I now request, in agreement with the rules of WP:DRN, that the discussion here at DRN is immedediately closed. Also, it is my opinion that DRN is not the correct place to discuss issues related to conduct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Z80Spectrum (talk • contribs) 16:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Z80Spectrum (talk) 17:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (ZX Spectrum)

Based on guidance from both Village Pump and WP:ANI, I will try to mediate the dispute over the removal of talk page posts. I will be developing a ruleset for this discussion in the next 24 to 48 hours, but in the meantime, here are some rules:

• 1. Be civil and concise. Overly long posts may make the poster feel better, but are not informative to the moderator or the community.
• 2. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to the moderator, and to the community, and the moderator represents the community.
• 3. Comment on content, not contributors.
• 4. Discuss edits, not editors.
• 5. If you have any questions for the moderator, ask them here, not on the moderator's talk page or by email.
• 6. Do not edit the article or the article talk page unless the moderator permits editing.

The issue at this point is the removal of approximately 26K of talk page material that was posted by User:Z80Spectrum and was removed by User:Chaheel Riens. I will ask each editor to make a one-paragraph or two-paragraph statement. User:Chaheel Riens should explain why they removed the talk page content, and User:Z80Spectrum should explain why the removed material was relevant to improving the article.

I will also note that one editor at Village Pump mentioned that a compromise could be restoring the material to a talk page archive. This article talk page does not yet have archiving set up, and I will set up archiving to archive posts that were made in previous years.

User:Z80Spectrum - I wrote this while you were writing your request to close this case and to treat the talk page removal as a conduct issue. I have been asked to treat the talk page removal as an article talk page content issue, and to conduct moderated discussion. I would suggest that you follow the guidance of User:Ritchie333 who closed your complaint at WP:ANI. I will not decide whether this is a content issue, within scope of DRN, or a conduct issue. You, User:Z80Spectrum, have three choices at this point:

• A. Take part in this discussion.
• B. Go back to WP:AN or WP:ANI, which might result in another closure, or even a boomerang.
• C. Do nothing.

User:Chaheel Riens - You have three choices at this point:

• D. Take part in this discussion (by explaining the talk page removal)..
• E. Go to WP:ANI.
• F. Do nothing.

I am doing what I think I was asked to do by the community, which is to try to resume moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (ZX Spectrum)

I agree to take part in this discussion. I agree to the suggested compromise of restoring the removed tp-content to the archive. I have already discussed such an option with the other editor here [8], and on his talk page also.

I have previously provided arguments why the tp-content should not be removed, mostly in my first few posts here [9]. I can write a summary of my arguments here at DRN. Z80Spectrum (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to immediately highlight another argument, which perhaps isn't sufficiently obvious: if a claim is made that my methods are WP:OR, then the same should apply to the methods previously used to produce the contended article content and the contended images, and a similar situation exists in all other articles about 80's microcomputers. Z80Spectrum (talk) 18:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, note that I did set up archiving for the talk page in preparation for end of discussion and explained the usage to a curious Z80Spectrum here, but they then removed it here.

My summary - for this issue of removal of information - is the same as it has always been: I feel that the information removed is based on Z80Spectrum's personal investigation, research and knowledge, and as such is Original Research. Different editors - Vquakr, Escape Orbit, Ritchie333 and Remsense - have agreed in general with this principle and stated as much on the talk page. The information also serves as an instruction guide on how to replicate the ZX Spectrum display on modern equipment. This is NotHowTo. There is also a question of WP:OWN where Z80Spectrum has requested that I and another editor stop editing the article and should just let me and 4throck improve the article; we had quite a fine cooperation before you intervened. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (ZX Spectrum)

User:Chaheel Riens - Do you agree to moderated discussion about the talk page removal? You haven't explicitly answered.

User:Z80Spectrum - Why did you delete the code that signals ClueBot to archive the talk page?

Are there any issues about article content (as opposed to article talk page content)?

Are you both willing to compromise on the removed material by archiving it? If not, please make a statement as to why not. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Statement 3.1 by moderator (ZX Spectrum)

Please read DRN Rule F. Those are the rules for discussion of an article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:27, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (ZX Spectrum)

Yes, I agree to discussion. I thought that was implicit by the fact that I was discussing the topic already, and that's all I've done since 8th January. As I've mentioned elsewhere I'm not able to edit as frequently as I used to at the moment, but I'm joining in where and when I can.

With regard to archiving - see Archive Settings on the talk page. Chaheel Riens (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I am willing to compromise on the removed material by archiving it.

ClueBot III issue. I think it is unfair to add a complex mechanism like the ClueBot III in the midst of a dispute, especially when one of the parties in the dispute is inexperienced. Also, as per my understanding, the ClueBot III would have archived two topics related to the dispute. Therefore, I removed automatic archiving and proposed to discuss the list of topics that should be archived manually.

Article content. There are still issues in the current version of the article. All of them are about quality or accuracy of article images. For example, I was preparing |this image to replace |this article image. A few other images need some immediate but simple improvements (i.e. new color palette needs to be applied). Most other images should be improved, but they can remain the same for the time being. It takes a lot of work to create a high-quality image, so I'm unable to do it all by myself, I simply don't have enough spare time.

- Z80Spectrum (talk) 09:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Template:Politics of Armenia

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by UA0Volodymyr on 21:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Template:Politics of Armenia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved UA0Volodymyr (talk · contribs) Archives908 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I proposed to remove the ugly and useless section on international organizations from the template. Basically, this section duplicates the Foreign relations section. Article on Armenian CoE membership, as well as articles of international relationship with others organizations, is already in that section, and CIS is also more optimal to be moved to this section, like it's done in the Template:Politics of Ukraine. The user rejects my changes and refers to the lack of consensus and policies forbidding having this section. I think these are not enough reasons for having this useless and senseless section. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Template talk:Politics of Armenia#International organizations How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Assess the feasibility of this section and my proposals, find an optimal variation of listing the international organizations in the template. Summary of dispute by Archives908 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Not sure exactly why a dispute was opened, as there is an ongoing discussion on the template talk page. Last message I sent today was to seek clarification from the user regarding what exactly they are proposing to improve the template as it has not been very clear thus far. Admins, please note that UA0Volodymyr was recently unblocked from an indef ban due to disruptive behavior and an unwillingness to co-operate with others (see: AE discussion). Ymblanter reported the user for disruptive editing and UA0Volodymyr was subsequently blocked by HJ Mitchell. There was also an ANI for edit warring (see: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1140#Edit warring - UA0Volodymyr). The ban was lifted on 10 January 2024 by Red-tailed hawk, with conditions (topic ban and one-revert restriction). The user has already reinstated their preferred version of the template after being reverted and prior to establishing consensus (see: [10]). Regards, Archives908 (talk) 21:57, 11 January 2024 (UTC) Template:Politics of Armenia discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Armenia) I have two questions for the editors. The first question is whether you are requesting moderated discussion in accordance with DRN Rule D. Moderated discussion is voluntary. Moderated discussion at DRN will only be about article content. User conduct will not be discussed. Often the resolution or orderly discussion of article content issues can permit user conduct issues to subside. If an editor really wants to discuss user conduct, they should first read the boomerang essay and then report the conduct issue at WP:ANI, but then this case will be closed, because we do not discuss issues involving the same article in two forums at once. If you want moderated discussion, please also read the Armenia-Azerbaijan finding. An editor who does want moderated discussion of content should answer the second question. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the template. So please state concisely what part of the template you want to change (or what you want left the same that another editor wants to change). Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Armenia) Thank you for your feedback, Robert McClenon, it is much appreciated. I have been trying since October 2023 to understand exactly what UA0Volodymyr is seeking to achieve in the template. They insist that they have "improvements to make", yet it is challenging to know what exactly they seek to accomplish as they have not provided a clear X to Y proposal. Out of GF, I'm still open to understand their end-goals with the template, as is evident from my last message in the template talk page discussion. However, the editing tactics of UA0Volodymyr raise concern. I know this discussion is supposed to focus strictly on content; but, I am now debating opening an ANI. UA0Volodymyr is under a strict one-revert restriction, yet they have already restored content which has been reverted (see: [11]) just one day after their indef ban was lifted. I am not sure how best to proceed at this point, in the interim, perhaps UA0Volodymyr can present their proposal for the template in a clear X to Y format? Regards, Archives908 (talk) 19:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC) I decline my proposals. Do with this template whatever you want. I don't want to participate in these discusses anymore. Thanks. --UA0Volodymyr (talk) 00:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

General Collective Intelligence

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by CognitiveMMA on 05:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute General Collective Intelligence (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (now Draft:General Collective Intelligence (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) Users involved CognitiveMMA (talk · contribs) MrOllie (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I am bringing this issue to dispute resolution because I believe there has been a misunderstanding regarding my contributions to the Wikipedia article on "General Collective Intelligence." My main argument is that as an expert in this field, my inclusion of peer-reviewed research is essential for the article's accuracy and completeness. I am not motivated by self-promotion but by a desire to share important ideas about nature's collective intelligence, which I believe can significantly contribute to global challenges such as poverty and climate change. I contend that my actions do not constitute a conflict of interest. Wikipedia's guidelines allow for the citation of one's work when it is relevant and peer-reviewed, which is the case here. Additionally, my article was moved to draft without clear guidance for improvement, which I find unhelpful and counterproductive. I am seeking a fair and informed review process through this dispute resolution. I believe that Wikipedia is a platform for spreading ideas, especially those supported by academic research, and including such content does not violate Wikipedia's policy against original research. My intention is to engage in a constructive dialogue to resolve this matter in accordance with Wikipedia's standards and practices. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? User talk:CognitiveMMA#October 2021 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? To resolve this dispute, an impartial review of my contributions by a panel of experienced Wikipedia editors would be helpful. If possible, this panel might include experts in the field of collective intelligence, to ensure that the content is evaluated both for adherence to Wikipedia's guidelines and for its academic validity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CognitiveMMA (talk • contribs) 05:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by MrOllie Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. General Collective Intelligence discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Note:The filing editor does not appear to have notified MrOllie on their user talkpage. This dispute appears to be about wether the filer has a conflict of interest, and about wether what is currently at Draft:General Collective Intelligence is siutable for mainspace. Questions about wether a specific editor has a conflict of interest can be adressed at the conflict of interest noticeboard. Looking through the archives, disputes about wether a (declined / pushed back from mainspace) draft is siutable for mainspace don't appear to be a good fit for this noticeboard. Assuming the answer to the conflict of interest question is "no conflict of interest" the main way to object a unliteral draftification would be to move it back, but submitting it to AfC is also possible. If the answer to the conflict of interest question is that there is a conflict of interest, objecting to the draftification means to submit the Draft to AfC. If the draft is submitted to AfC and declined (which a since G13'd version of this draft appears to have been) or rejected, that can be discussed at the Teahouse or the AfC help desk. Victor Schmidt (talk) 08:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC) wordling, linked G13 at Victor Schmidt (talk) 17:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Playboi Carti

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by EphemeralPerpetuals on 18:05, 13 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Playboi Carti (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved EphemeralPerpetuals (talk · contribs) Moem-Meom (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Rapper Playboi Carti's birth date has been brought into question following the release of his track H00dByAir and the release of footage of an arrest in 2022. Consensus has not been reached, and editing has gone back and forth between the dates 1995 and 1996 for weeks without solid conversation. The majority of reliable sources state his birth date as 1996, but more questionable ones - such as footage of his arrest and a leaked driver's license state it is 1995. Note: It's difficult to specifically note more than one person as the majority of edits have been done by anonymous accounts - the dispute is not one that can be easily pinned down. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Playboi_Carti#Consensus_on_Carti's_birth_year Talk:Playboi_Carti#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_10_January_2024_(2) User_talk:RXLFZ#Playboi_Carti_birth_year_dispute How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like an outside opinion to review the dispute and provide perspective - ideally so that a consensus can be met. I'm still a relatively new user, and I'm unsure exactly how to proceed, so if this isn't the right location to request help with this matter then please redirect me. Summary of dispute by Moem-Meom Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Playboi Carti discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard is probably the right forum for this issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC) Thank you - I'll take it over there. EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them)talk 00:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

sensitivity analysis

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Saltean on 18:35, 15 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Sensitivity analysis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Saltean (talk · contribs) MrOllie (talk · contribs) Dispute overview This concerns a series of edit made last September 2023 by User:MrOllie and relative to a several different pages, see User_talk:MrOllie#Your_edits_of_last_September where all references to my own work have been removed. My case is that in two particular two pages Sensitivity auditing and Sensitivity analysis my own references are instead needed. In one case the references eliminated correspond to the most quoted articles in the respective discipline of sensitivity analysis (see detailed list in Talk:Sensitivity analysis). In the other case I am simply the creator of the method, please see Talk:Sensitivity auditing. I agree that COI needs to be avoided. I agree that I quoted excessively my own papers, lesson learned, and I can live with the elisions in the other pages. I ask no action there. Now I can use the edit COI template to gently reinsert at least the essential references at the two pages mentioned, but would like to note that editors such as User:MrOllie could use some restraint and especially address the authors of Wikipedia with courtesy. I noted User:MrOllie's hostile and confrontational tone with practically all authors, and even outside Wikipedia there have been complaints. I am not saying that User:MrOllie is wrong – most likely User:MrOllie is mostly right in the pertinent domains but being right gives no licence to be brusque. User:MrOllie should consider the possibility that some author is also right in his/her subject domain. Since User:MrOllie is a seasoned editor (as I am a seasoned author) I doubt this complaint of mine will make any difference, but still, it pains me that we cannot work in Wikipedia in a spirit of cooperation instead of one of aggressive confrontation – though, let it be clear, I met scores of polite and collaborative editors in Wikipedia who corrected and still correct me constructively. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? See Talk:Sensitivity analysis Talk:Sensitivity auditing User_talk:MrOllie#Your_edits_of_last_September Talk:Quantitative storytelling Talk:Ethics of quantification User_talk:Saltean#Managing_a_conflict_of_interest How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Talking to User:MrOllie would be a good starting point. Summary of dispute by Mr.Ollie Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. sensitivity analysis discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi User:Robert McClenon I left a comment on your Talk page, thanks for your help.Andrea Saltelli Saltean (talk) 15:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Kaspersky bans and allegations of Russian government ties

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Ilike2burnthing on 21:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Kaspersky bans and allegations of Russian government ties (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Ilike2burnthing (talk · contribs) Byte-ul (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I made a contribution to the page on 7th January 2024, referenced and relevant to the topic as a whole and the section added to. On 11th January 2024 this was reverted by the new user Byte-ul (account created on the 11th) after my first and only (civil) comment on Reddit to the user (also on the 11th). Byte-ul alleged that my contribution was 'malicious' and 'vandalism', which is untrue. After three reverts by me and four by Byte-ul (one while signed out), I opened a new topic on the Talk page to resolve the issue. Byte-ul initially replied that the contribution wasn't relevant (untrue) and that the sources were not applicable (untrue, and seemingly unread by Byte-ul as they referred to them as 'articles', which only one is). I responded to Byte-ul's allegations in full, and their subsequent response was essentially just, "I do not agree with this contribution," followed by misrepresentations (untrue and hypocritical claims of 'personal attacks' and making edits to 'settle personal disputes'). I then asked Byte-ul to explain why they disagreed, but they never replied. However, today another IP address reverted my contribution again. The location of the IP address is similar enough to the first one that I believe it's safe to assume this is Byte-ul again. I reverted, with a note requesting that Byte-ul engage with the Talk page discussion. Byte-ul then reverted again. There has been no further discussion on the Talk page. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Kaspersky_bans_and_allegations_of_Russian_government_ties#Resolve_claim_of_malicious_changes/vandalism How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Hopefully a third opinion is given which both parties agree to. I'm happy to make edits if necessary, although I'm unsure what those would entail. Summary of dispute by Byte-ul Kaspersky was labeled as malicious by the European Parliament as the result of an amendment added by Anna Elżbieta Fotyga that has been debated and voted for. The European Commission had nothing to do with it and it is irrelevant whether the European Commission is in possession of any evidence. The sources you cited were literally copy-pasted from Gerolf Annemans' inquiry to the European Commission, the second, third and fourth sources being included into the first one. Old and irrelevant sources (+ citation overkill) The german BSI is actually warning against the usage of Kaspersky software . Not relevant to the European Parliament malicious designation anyway, but it shows that you have just copy pasted those links without doing your due diligence. There is no discussion in the senat.fr article about having evidence against Kaspersky or not. Kaspersky is only described as intrusive. Not relevant to the European Parliament malicious designation anyway. There is no source for the belgian Cybersecurity Center claims, nor any link pointing to the institution's analysis. Not relevant to the European Parliament malicious designation anyway. You kept writing in the Talk section about unrelated topics and disputes you had outside Wikipedia (you're doing this here as well), you edited the page using fake information with the sole purpose of winning an argument you had elsewhere. You doxed my user information from other boards, continuous harassment and personal attacks here and outside of Wikipedia. Byte-ul (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Kaspersky bans and allegations of Russian government ties discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Single-domain antibody

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Pmartiniberthon on 14:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Single-domain antibody (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Pmartiniberthon (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Hello, I am the attorney of the owner of the trademarks NANOBODY and NANOBODIES. I have amended the publication to add the TM sign next to my client's trademarks to avoid its cancellation. I have been requested to establish evidence of my client's rights, which I have. Yet, I am still denied to change the page accordingly. In addition, please be advised that article L. 713-3-4 of French Intellectual Property Code dictates that : "When the reproduction of a trademark in a dictionary, encyclopedia or similar reference work, in printed or electronic form, gives the impression that it constitutes the generic term designating the goods or services for which it is registered, and the trademark owner so requests, the publisher shall indicate without delay and at the latest at the time of the next edition if the work is printed, that it is a registered trademark." My Client is simply trying to indicate that these terms are registered trademarks. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pmartiniberthon How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? By allowing me to add the TM sign next to the terms nanobody and nanobodies Single-domain antibody discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks says Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, in either article text or citations, unless unavoidably necessary for context. It is pretty clear that Wikipedia does not use the ™ symbol in cases like this. Cullen328 (talk) 03:10, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Per the above, we don't use trademark registration symbols for Coca-Cola or Google. Wikipedia's non-use of trademark registration symbols has no bearing on the legal status of such marks. BD2412 T 03:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Also worth noting is that a Google Scholar search for academic papers using the term "nanobody" shows that the vast majority of these papers do not use the ™ or ® symbols. Cullen328 (talk) 03:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Even so, our clearest path may be to just eliminate all reference to "Nanobody" from the article, and use "sdAb" instead. BD2412 T 03:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC) I disagree. In my view, we need to use the terminology widely used by reliable sources. Cullen328 (talk) 04:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC) If a single company owns a trademark on the name for their product, then every time we use the name, symbol or not, we are effectively promoting their product — no differently than if we used "Tylenol" rather than paracetamol throughout that article. BD2412 T 04:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC) I have indefinitely blocked Pmartiniberthon for making legal threats. Cullen328 (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Also worth noting is that this review article Nanobodies: A Review of Generation, Diagnostics and Therapeutics, published by the National Institutes of Health, an agency of the US federal government, does not use the ™ or ® symbols. Cullen328 (talk) 04:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC) WP:MOSTM tells us not to use the ™ and ® symbols but it doesn't prevent stating that a certain term is trademarked by some company. For examples, see our articles on Rolex and Coca-Cola. Whether to make a statement in the article text about something being a trademark might depend on importance and would require consensus of editors. It is unpleasant to think that lawyers might be patrolling our pages insisting on recognition of trademarks. Basically we don't care and we don't see ourselves as promoting one terminology for referring to a certain product and not another. We use whatever is most likely to be recognized and understood by the reader. EdJohnston (talk) 04:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RPL (programming_language)

– New discussion.

Filed by Jdbtwo on 19:11, 17 January 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• RPL (programming language) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Matthiaspaul (talk · contribs)
• Jdbtwo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

One editor claims that RPL is “object oriented” when it is clearly not, and in the talk page, there has been an extensive discussion on why none of the references cited for the “object oriented” claim actually reliably support it.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

On the RPL talk page : Talk:RPL_(programming_language)#Object_oriented?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Another editor or editors who has a greater knowledge of OOP could either verify or disprove that RPL is object oriented, and whether said claim is supported reliably by the cited sources.

Summary of dispute by Jdbtwo

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I started the dispute regarding whether RPL is object oriented on the 27th of November 2021. I stated the reasons which show that RPL is not OO. I removed the claim but it was reverted and then changed to “Partially object oriented.” I then systematically deconstructed the sources cited to support the claim and I showed that said sources do not reliably support the claim. I then removed the OO claim, but it was restored again by the opposing editor. Jdbtwo (talk) 20:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

RPL (programming_language) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (RPL)

Do the editors want to try moderated discussion? Please read DRN Rule A, and answer whether you agree to moderated discussion. Are there any issues besides whether the language can be described as partially object-oriented? If so, please state concisely what you want to change in the article, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change.

Does a reliable source in computer science, such as a journal article or a textbook, characterize the language either as object-oriented or as partially object-oriented? Stating that the language is object-oriented based on some of its properties is synthesis amounting to original research unless the same conclusion is drawn by a reliable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

John de Lancie

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by EpicTiger87 on 22:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute John de Lancie (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved EpicTiger87 (talk · contribs) FlightTime (talk · contribs) Meters (talk · contribs) Daniel Case (talk · contribs) Dennis Brown (talk · contribs) Sergecross73 (talk · contribs) City of Silver (talk · contribs) Leon Nalle (talk · contribs) Slacker13 (talk · contribs) VQuakr (talk · contribs) Dispute overview There was a previous dispute over my proposed edit on the John de Lancie page, where I argued that his role as Discord should be moved to the top of the lede alongside his Q role. With the previous discussion on that matter (including a previous discussion on this board), a consensus formed against me and good arguments were risen against my points. So I concede that I was in the minority on that proposed edit and have dropped that. However, a new edit I have proposed is significantly different from my old proposed one (it no longer claims that the Discord role is as popular as the Q role and doesn't move it to the top of the lede, the new edit simply succinctly mentions he is a voice actor, and that his Discord role is directly inspired by his most popular role) and only one user has objected to it so far (making it a 1 vs. 1 issue rather than something that has any consensus in either direction), so I am interested if seeing if any other users agree or disagree with it. So far only one other editor (Meters) has stated their opinion on it. None of the other users who were involved with the discussion on my previous edit have given any opinions on my new proposed edit after days, and Meter has not responded to my long response to them. Since it has been days with no progress toward developing a consensus, I am making this request so that a discussion can take place on this edit, among the same group of people who opposed my previous edit plus any other interested parties. Below I link to the most recent talk page discussion where they can read over my argument I gave in favor of the new edit, where I explained why it lacks the issues of the previous edit and does help improve the lede of the article. If a consensus develops against this edit, I will be willing to concede like I did with the previous one. But since no consensus has developed on the talk page beyond a 1 vs. 1 dispute, I think this request is worth it in order to develop a consensus. Thank you. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Discussions over my old proposed edit (for background info): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_de_Lancie#Roles_mentioned_in_first_paragraph:_Q/Discord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_240#John_de_Lancie Recent Discussion over new proposed edit (directly relevant to this discussion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_de_Lancie#New_Edit_Proposal_for_Discord_Mention_in_the_Lede How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? It will be useful to have this forum where the editors who were involved with my previous edit can now express their views on my new proposed edit, so that we can get to a consensus on this matter just as with the last one. I look forward to a discussion on my new proposed edit. If you oppose this edit too, I would be happy to hear proposals for alternate edits or ideas on how to otherwise improve the article. Summary of dispute by FlightTime Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Meters Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Daniel Case Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Dennis Brown Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. It is a fairly established consensus that the information doesn't belong in the lede. We shouldn't have to debate this weekly. This isn't a topic ripe for this board because the editor is simply trying to take a second bite of the apple, yet again, and wear the other editors down. In fact, continuing to beat this dead horse is now beginning to resemble a violation of WP:DE / WP:TE and is putting them at risk of sanction. Dennis Brown 2¢ 01:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Sergecross73 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I haven't had any stance on this series of disputes about this article's lead, I merely stumbled upon it by chance, and I've just tried to guide the discussion a bit since it didn't seem like some parties were really articulating their stances very clearly. The general situation is, one editor is generally trying to increase the perceived importance/prevalence of a certain role of this actor in question, while it seems like most other editors tend to disagree. It's true that the most recent proposed change is technically different than prior ones, but it's still similar in spirit. If it were me, I'd probably chose WP:RFC over WP:DRN if I wanted to pursue this. But I wouldn't want to pursue this - it's a relatively trivial situation. I'd move on to other more important editing. Sergecross73 msg me 00:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by City of Silver Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Leon Nalle Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Slacker13 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by VQuakr Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. The dispute overview is not accurate. A review of the totality of the interactions on this subject makes is clear there is consensus already: consensus not to expand this aspect of the subject in the lead section. This is also not a 1v1 dispute, as evidenced by [12], [13], [14]. I believe the advice at WP:LISTEN is relevant. DR is unlikely to be helpful in this case because clear consensus has already developed. VQuakr (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC) John de Lancie discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Of the 3 examples VQuakr gave to show that there was already a consensus against me, the revert from them specifically had the summary "let's get consensus before expanding on Discord coverage, please and thank you" which I interpreted as being a neutral statement on the edit. Same for the Sergecross statement they linked, which said that they perceived that the community was against me, rather than agreeing or disagreeing with my given point (they made it a point to say they had no stake in the argument). So the only person of the 3 who stated an argument against my edit was Meters (and I would be happy to hear their response to my response against their argument, as their argument on sources is one that multiple editors in this discussion have stated they disagree with). So while there is clearly consensus against my old edit, there is not a consensus yet on this new edit. With VQuakr saying they also oppose my edit, it is still only 2 against and 1 for. I would be happy to hear their reasoning for opposing my new edit. EpicTiger87 (talk) 01:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Dennis Brown's summary is incorrect. The Discord role is already in the lede and there is no consensus against having it there, the only consensus established was against moving it to the first paragraph of the lede and claiming it is his most well known role alongside Q. The new edit does not do the things that there are a consensus against. I would appreciate actual discussion on my new edit rather than claiming that the consensus against my categorically different old edit somehow translates over automatically. EpicTiger87 (talk) 01:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.