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June 8

Tallest Building

What is the tallest publicly accessible building in London, England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.122.112 (talk) 00:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings and structures in London? Vimescarrot (talk) 00:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

That page does not answer the question as asked. It says the highest public viewing point in London is on the London Eye, but that is a ferris wheel, not a building. If this is what the original poster really wanted, we're fine. As to buildings, I know that St. Paul's Cathedral has a high-level gallery open to the public (accessed only by stairs), but I don't know if there is a higher one in a building in London. --Anonymous, 04:05 UTC, June 8, 2009.

The question says nothing about viewing points. From the list, it would seem that One Canada Square is the tallest building that the public can access. They may only be able to go into the lobby before having to then show some sort of proof of employment there but they can access the building. Dismas|^(talk) 04:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

If you are happy to pay for access, it depends how deep your pockets are. 30 St Mary Axe (the gherkin) has a "dinner club" under the dome on the top floor. That is open to members of the dinner club (and presumably their guests too). Membership seemed to be open to anybody, though when I asked the security team in the lobby said it was "very expensive" but couldn't (or wouldn't) say how much membership was or who I should contact for membership - they had that slighty snooty air you get at some top nightclubs and restaurants, so maybe they didn't want the riff-raff coming in their nice building. Astronaut (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Assuming you're meaning buildings it is possible to go to the top or near the top, and based on Wikipedia entries, etc, Tower 42 (aka the NatWest Tower) is the tallest that's definitely accessible, with a bar on its top floor, called Vertigo 42[1]. It's the 4th-tallest building in London (and the UK), and the 6th-tallest structure in London; One Canada Square, 8 Canada Square, and BT Tower[2] are not accessible to the public; I can't find info about Citigroup Centre, London but it seems to be purely offices and not publicly accessible, and Crystal Palace transmitting station is probably not accessible either.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 15:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Male Identity

What would be a simple explanation for what male identity actually is? I know it is what makes a male but what factors would be involved in manliness e.g. males in media and literature, male stereotypes, father and son relationships etc

220.244.76.121 (talk) 01:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Your question is kind of unclear. can you clarify what you mean by "factors"? You may want to look at the articles masculinity, man, Gender role, and Gender identity. Sifaka ^talk 02:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about factors such as males in media and literature, male stereotypes, father and son relationships etc and their relevance and influence to the sense of male identity, and how they affect the male identity. 220.244.76.121 (talk) 02:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The repetition does not clarify. Are you asking about how (among other things) media portrayals of male characters affect my sense of self, or something like that? —04:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

sounds like homework —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.191.210 (talk) 06:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a question that is going to come up with different answers in different cultures. E.g. in the US pants are a male symbol in Egypt and other African nations (and some Asian) males are just as male in Kaftan, Jellabiya or skirt. Sikh boys may wear their long hair in donut style like some girls do elsewhere thumb|donut hair. In some cultures males would feel incomplete without an Assegai spear while in others a brawny body does the trick. Male image also changes with time. Hair length e.g. keeps alternating between short and long (compare e.g. Image:Cicero.PNG, File:Durer self portarit 28.jpg, File:James Dean in East of Eden trailer 2.jpg, File:Jethro Tull 5.jpg, File:Arnold Schwarzenegger.JPG) So the answer is: depends.71.236.26.74 (talk) 18:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Digital databases help

I work on a lot of articles on obscure topics and the only way to find decent sources on many of them is to trawl digitized newspaper/other periodical archives. I'm talking about stuff you can barely find a nugget to work from using google web, books, news (many news results you do find there you have to pay for to access more than an abstract) nyt.com, etc. I recently found quite a bit of material for articles using ancestry.com via their free trial, which you have to cancel before two weeks expire or be charged an arm and a leg. I just spent some time attempting to find other sites to use. Highbeam Research has a five day trial and then charges boatloads. Proquest is another subscription site. I don't really feel like paying third parties for the ability to research material so I can add it here as a volunteer. I am also philosophically opposed to paying for educational material like this. I just stumbled across accessmylibrary.com, which is apparently free and claims to cover 33 million+ articles, but entering searches for material where I found hundreds of results at Ancestry.com, I'm finding nothing. Their search is very poor because I then tried as a test a few searches that should return many thousands of results, which are returning very few. For example, Richard Nixon only returns 200 results. I would expect maybe 100,000, so something's not right. Anyway, I am looking for recommendations, comparisons, other site prospects—anything anyone has to offer in the area.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

First see Deep Web and Metasearch engine, then check out this list of research sites. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 09:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It's worth looking to see if your local public library has subscriptions to any useful sites - they may allow you to use your library membership to access them remotely. Warofdreams talk 10:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I assume you have been to the List of digital library projects article? --Saddhiyama (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Library of Congress's Chronicling America is free, and has a million newspaper pages from 1880 - 1910. -- KathrynLybarger (talk) 02:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Also this site has a comprehensive list of international newspaper digitization projects. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses. I will be checking out the links provided. This is a slow process because the only way I can really check, is when I am actually doing research; actual application will determine for me if these are a good substitute for the pay services.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Migratory Birds Pre 1492

Lots of birds migrate from Europe to America or vice versa. Prior to the 'discovery' - or rather publicisation - of the Americas where did the Europeans think they went to when they migrated? AllanHainey (talk) 12:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Most European birds migrate to Africa. If the Europeans thought about it at all, that would have been a good guess. Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of much migration between Europe and America in any case - what would be the point? The seasons are pretty much the same. Matt Deres (talk) 13:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Barnacle Geese were thought to transform into driftwood since they disappeared during the summer when they breed in the arctic. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There seems to have been much speculation on this subject specifically with regard to swallows (fully laden or otherwise), for some reason. The Cambridge Bestiary (twelfth century) clearly says that "overseas it lives during the winter"—and its author also recognizes that storks migrate. Nevertheless, it was a widely held opinion for centuries that swallows and some other small migratory birds wintered at the bottom of lakes or streams; see footnote 1 at the stork link in the preceding sentence for Samuel Johnson's pronouncement on the matter. Deor (talk) 16:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice link - but my read is that he was being sarcastic! Tempshill (talk) 05:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

2009 EU UK election results at county or constituency

Last night the BBC were showing vote share at (what looked like) results at the constituency level, but I can't find these results online. Does anyone know where to find them?

Look here [3], it is voting is by region rather than constituency. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I know it's voting by region, and it's easy to find those results. I specifically asked for the voting at the constituency level, not the regional level, because that has more relevance to an upcoming general election. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.45.24 (talk) 15:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Well EU constituencies are not contiguous with local authority constituencies. I doubt you'd be able to get the EU results by local authority constituency. However, in England, local authority elections were held at the same time and their results were available on Thursday/Friday, so you could extrapolate from them. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The results that the BBC were using were based on council areas, the ones Vine pulled up were mostly them (the % vote bits he did). Couldn't find them online, sorry. Trying to extrapolate from Local to EU would be very hard, given UKIP's performance. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The results by council area are generally available on the website of the lead council. For example, breakdowns for districts in Yorkshire and the Humber are on Leeds City Council's website, linked from here [4]. Warofdreams talk 20:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

District results can be very interesting, in Cornwall Labour were 6th behind the Cornish Independence Party, and the Greens were 1st in Norwich and Brighton, which will make them hopeful of getting their first MP in either the Norwich North By-Election or Brighton Pavilion in the next General Election. Prokhorovka (talk) 20:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

They will be very lucky to get an MP in the Norwich North by-election, as they are much stronger in Norwich South - I believe that is another of their target seats for the next general election. Warofdreams talk 20:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

How to verbally and nonverbally manipulate people?

I tried NLP that promises to do that but it turned out to be a pseudoscience and it does not who what it claims. Something like social engineering applied on a smaller scale would be nice. Can you please recommend books/websites that teach people to manipulate others?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.46.26 (talk) 13:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

If you send me $150 I'll send you complete instructions on how to manipulate people just using the internet. I'll even throw in instructions on how to make money doing it. ;-) DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

How to Win Friends and Influence People —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 15:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I do know how it's done, but I don't know if I could explain it adequatly without writing a book on it. Having seen it first-had, I also believe (at least the methods I know) that it would be far too dangerous to spread the knowledge any further. I'm not going into details which are private with various individuals, but we're not talking party tricks here. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 15:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Brainwashing, Mind control seem to be relevant wikipedia pages. Other than that cults and (pseudo)-religions like e.g. Scientology seem to have methods that work on quite a few people. Not that I'd recommend dabbling in any of this. For some people getting married seems to work :-) 71.236.26.74 (talk) 17:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Or, you could check out body language for a good start on the nonverbal stuff, if you mean something simpler. I'm not sure if by "manipulate" you mean just normally influence or really trick/coerce them. But, all the ones mentioned seem to lead toward the verbal part, so I thought I'd throw that in there. A few books in the references look promising. Oh, and while it's been a long time since I've read him, anything by Macchiavelli would be good for really manipulating things, though he talks more about politics than one-on-one stuff.209.244.187.155 (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It really depends what you mean by 'manipulate' people, but Derren Brown is very good at combining all sorts of tricks to very entertaining effect. His book Tricks of the Mind would be a good book to start with, as would many books on hypnosis. Also see Milton H. Erickson.Popcorn II (talk) 18:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Pheromones in humans are still poorly understood and affect different people differently (some react adversely to what attracts others). They do have a strong influence, though. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 18:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I doubt very much that NLP has ever "promised to manipulate people". What it offers is "influencing people with integrity", a rather different proposition. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting that the "influencing" is done on "people with integrity". What about the rest of us, I wonder? :-) // BL \\ (talk) 02:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

How disappointing to learn you're not a person of integrity, Bielle. You said it, not me.  :) :) -- JackofOz (talk) 09:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I missed Jack's comment earlier. If a lack of itegrity makes me difficult to influence, I shall have to consider the trade-off seriously. :-) ". . . the rest of us" also sounds less judgemental than "the rest of you", though I suppose I could have stopped at "the rest". // BL \\ (talk) 16:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

By manipulating I mean making people doing what we want. We have all seen smooth talkers in everyday life doing it. Its an inborn skill I guess. Is there anyway how others can learn it?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.46.26 (talk) 09:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I have only seen smooth talkers manipulate others on film or tv - are you sure you have seen such people in real life? Manipulating others is likely to rebound on you, as people will distrust you and not cooperate with you. In my experience honest cooperation and teamwork with others is the key to success, not manipulation. I've met lots of people from all walks of life, and I have noticed that the selfish manipulative types are found on council estates, while contrary to the popular stereotypes wealthy people are charming and friendly. Which rather suggests that the best way to manipulate people is to be genuinely nice to them. 78.144.202.233 (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Seems to work for most of the US senators. They keep getting reelected anyways. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

code

Does anyone know the style of code this is and perhaps an idea or two to break it?

IIMEAGAMEAFIRESAMESITGETSOWESTNEXTANIXANTFORAQUICKCOGGOTNOTSIXAICARE
ASTREEROADATOAMANATOFANASCANEFONTCHATTIREIAMVIEWSAINTTAMEFOURITOME
SONICTROTPOOLROCKFORASENDATOPICKQUARTOFWIRESAPROMOANYUSSAMEFROMAARE
NOTINFROMAFORTNOINUNTILITEMMOVEIFORTHEPATABEENAOFTHESTEAKIMARKAOVEN
FINDTOAISAVEROTWHENSCENTPINKTONPERAMESOIAONLYREADTOSONILAWNAFULLY
IAMAMANYSODATEFULLYHAVETOSERVEAWARMSOFORANDTHEAMBEAONLYIBUTFORMELONE
AHILLASMUCHSANDYGOTOAIMEBUTMANWOODSTOSPRITAMAINIHITSHESONICGASLABELA

All I know so far is it has 18 words. I am assuming it is English. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is made up of English words. Adding the spaces gets:

I I ME A GAME A FIRE SAME SIT GET SO WEST NEXT AN IXANT not sure about that bit FOR A QUICK COG GOT NOT SIX A I CARE

AS TREE ROAD A TO AM AN A TO FAN AS CANE FONT CHAT TIRE I AM VIEW SAINT TAME FOUR I TOME

SONIC TROT POOL ROCK FOR A SEND A TO PICK QUART OF WIRES A PROMO ANY US SAME FROM A ARE

NOT IN FROM A FORT NO IN UNTIL ITEM MOVE IF OR THE PAT A BEEN A OF THE STEAK I MARK A OVEN

FIND TO A I SAVE ROT WHEN SCENT PINK TON PERAME not sure about that bit either SO I A ONLY READ TO SON I LAWN A FULLY

I AM A MANY SO DATE FULLY HAVE TO SERVE A WARMS OF OR AND THE AM BE A ONLY I BUT FOR ME LONE

A HILL AS MUCH SANDY GO TO A I ME BUT MAN WOODS TO SPRIT or that AM A IN I HIT SHE SONIC GAS LABEL A

If anyone can work out the 3 bits I couldn't get, please do. I'm not sure what to do next, though. The order of the words seems completely random, so perhaps only the frequency of the words matters? Take the 18 most common words and see if they form a sentence somehow? I don't know... good luck! --Tango (talk) 16:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The first tricky bit resolves with AN IXANT being A NIX ANT, PERAME could be PER A ME. SPRIT could be a misspelling of spirit or sprite or SPUR IT or something. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

(Ciphertext above changed to monospace.) OK, so what do we do with this large number of mostly unrelated words? Taking the first letter of each word doesn't seem to yield anything; it starts "iimagafssgswnaifaqcgnsaicatrataaatfacfctiavstfitstprfasatpqowapausfaa" and I terminated the experiment. Tempshill (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"sprit" is a word for some kind of nautical pole. 213.122.54.27 (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Some odd things about that list of words: there seem to be a lot of 1-letter and 2-letter words, which might fit a coder (or computer) filling in dummy letters around the original text in order to make words - the short words would represent places where they got desperate. There are a few fairly obscure words, such as nix, per, and promo, which might imply a computer using a dictionary to choose the words at random. Against this is the fact that all the two-letter words are very ordinary; if a computer was picking words at random, where are the two-letter words like pi, ma, hi, ho, ef, en, oh, and ox? Also the word sonic appears twice, which is a bit unlikely to happen by chance (but might represent a human word-picker being uninspired). 213.122.54.27 (talk) 04:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

All of the words except 'PARAME' (which is indeed more likely to be "PER", "A" and "ME") are between 1 and 5 letters long. Since the answer is believed to have only 18 words, there is considerable redundancy in the code - each of those whole rows of text corresponds to maybe 2 or 3 words in the solution. Perhaps this is just about the lengths of the words (minus one) in base 5? Which ought to be something you can attack with more conventional numerical code-breaking methods. It would be nice if the OP gave us some more context. Where did this come from? What is it for? SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I asked and got the following hint. It is a quote from a politician (US most likely). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that isn't a very helpful hint. We'll know when we've got it right when we find something which makes sense and there are too many political quotes for guessing to be helpful. A hint about how it is encoded would be better. --Tango (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I am almost certain that each word codes a letter; the question is, how are the words grouped to letters? I've tried reducing them to vowel/consonant combinations (so save and game would code for the same letter: there would be 23 unique letters in the text this way) and taking first letters of words. Neither approach has yielded fruit for me when put through frequency analysis, but I'm not particularly good at it. I tend to get a lot of a few letters together in the first line, which doesn't look very likely. The 'first letter' approach gives more likely-looking results than the vowel/consonant method. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 19:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot of ambiguity involved in seperating out the words, though. For instance, AMANATO could be am an a to, a man a to, a mana to, a manat o. I think the words could be a decoy. 213.122.54.27 (talk) 02:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I thought of reducing the number of letters in each word to a digraph matrix code (for twenty five letters 11 = a, 12 = b, 21 = f, etc.). Unfortunately it doesn't yield anything obvious, unless there's a word key for a shift at the beginning - I forget how to decipher them. Steewi (talk) 01:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Another hint is the word Knickerbocker. Could that be the word key? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 12:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

"I attribute my success in life to the moral, intellectual and physical education which I received from my mother."? 18 words, George Washington quote. I've no idea about uncoding but that's the first US Presidents Quote I found that matched 18 words... 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahh well now you see the 'knickerbocker president' is FDR (according to the book 1945) and the first quote of his I find that matches 18 words is "We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future."... or ... "We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." ... or ... "A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward." ... or ... "I believe that in every country the people themselves are more peaceably and liberally inclined than their governments." ... or ... "I do not look upon these United States as a finished product. We are still in the making." 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I kind of doubt that each word is 1 letter in the final quote because if that was the case, the final 18 words would average 9 letters a word, so there have to be junk words as well. Quite puzzling. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Thought I had something going there. I wrote out all double letters and got I GET TO SAME LLLO. 65.121.141.34 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC).

New hint is "5x5". Perhaps a bifid cipher? I also see no J or Z letters in any of the words. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a useful hint. As I said before - all of the words in the encrypted version are between 1 and 5 letters long. With two words coding for one plaintext letter and 18 words in the answer - you get an average plaintext word length of between 4 and 5 letters - which is pretty reasonable. Hence I'm 99% sure that the lengths of two consecutive words gives you two numbers in the range 1..5. There are 26 letters in the alphabet - and only 25 places to put them - but we can probably ignore 'Z'. So if you were to arrange all of the letters of the alphabet (except Z) into a 5x5 grid and use the lengths of two consecutive words to look up each letter - then I'm sure you'll have the answer. The only remaining issue is how to arrange the letters into that 5x5 grid. The first few word lengths are 11,21,41,44,33,24 - which doesn't produce anything useful for a simple grid:

   | 1 2 3 4 5
 --+----------
 1 | A B C D E
 2 | F G H I J
 3 | K L M N O
 4 | P Q R S T
 5 | U V W X Y

Hence the letters in the grid are mixed up in some manner. A frequency analysis ought to throw some light on that. SteveBaker (talk) 17:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Going on that, our number groups are

11 21 41 44 33 24 41 33 31 53 33 31 14 24 41 21 31 23 24 44 41 24 44 41 45 44 43 14 12 45 25 15 32 44 13 32 41 42 25 44 22 33 14 12 35 14 14 42 11 43 45 43 31 22 11 44 23 14 15 12 14 24 54 25 15 22 33 22 14 13 32 41 42 45 22 11 23 35 24 21 21 33 53 51

65.121.141.34 (talk) 18:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

after putting them into the simple grid, there is

A F P S M I P M K W M K D I P F K H I S P I S P T S R D B T J E L S C L P Q J S G M D B O D D Q A R T R K G A S H D E B D I X J E G M G D C L P Q T G A H O I F F M W U —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

With the frequencies

8 - D

7 - P, S

6 - I, M

5 - G

4 - A, F, K, T

3 - B, E, H, J, L, Q, R

2 - C, O, W

1 - U, X

0 - N, V, Y

First letter is p >

65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The 5x5 matrix is a good idea, but if memory serves it's more likely to have I/J in the same cell than to omit Z. That would make it

   | 1  2  3  4  5
 --+---------------
 1 | A  B  C  D  E
 2 | F  G  H  IJ K
 3 | L  M  N  O  P
 4 | Q  R  S  T  U
 5 | V  W  X  Y  Z

How does that change the result -- 65.121, did you automate that process or do it manually?

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I have updated it for 65

p F Q T N I Q N L X N L D I Q F L H I T Q I T Q U T S D B U K E M T C M Q R K T G N D B P D D R p S U S L G p T H D E B D I Y K E G N G D C M Q R U G Q H P I F F N X V 173.25.242.33 (talk) 23:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a quote from a senile politician, or one on crack. Edison (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I rather doubt FDR was on crack. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 12:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Fixed some mistakes, and inserted the known letters (lower case) assuming most common is e.

p F e T N J e N L X N L D J e F L H J T e J Y e G Y T L e J W V X J e N J D G Y e N L e H V e T F D O Y N B F D R L e V F R U R V R N M F e N J D J W F B N W V e N X V 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

p a t r i o t i s m i s D o t a s H o r t o Y t G Y r s t o W V m o t i o D G Y t i s t H V t r a D O Y i B a D R s t V a R U R V R i M a t i o D o W a B i W V t i m V 65.121.141.34 (talk) 15:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Got it, thanks for the help. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 15:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

7-3-6 and 2-4-5

• Tour A6M5 Zero cockpit

The two black boxes holding the two gun primers are painted with numbers in kanji.

Seven Three Six	Gun primer	Two Four Five
	Modern Radio

What are these two boxes? What do they do? -- Toytoy (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It sorta suggests to me that they are telling you the order to move the levers. 2,3,4,5,6,7 ...perhaps they are considered to be in the '1' position when both are vertical?

EU parliament elections

The only thing that is not clear to me about EU parliament elections is, that while there's only one parliament, every member country wants their own candidates in, and citizens of each member country can only vote for their own candidates. So how is it decided how many seats each country gets? JIP | Talk 20:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It's allocated by population, [5] might help. Prokhorovka (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Would you believe it, we have an article: apportionment in the European Parliament. And while most candidates elected are from the country which voted them in, that needn't be the case - see, for instance, Marta Andreasen. Warofdreams talk 20:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE! Prokhorovka (talk) 20:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Password reminder questions, what to do when the answers themselves won't do?

Some online services (such as Microsoft Hotmail, as I remember it), have a password reminder question option of "your mother's birthplace", and a minimum answer length of 5 characters. As it happens, my mother was born in Pori. What am I supposed to write as an answer? "Björneborg"? I am a fully natively Finnish-speaking Finn, and proud of it, thank you. And to add an extraneous character to "Pori" just to make it reach the minimum length seems artificial, and even if I accepted such behaviour, I would only forget what character I added, and where. So what am I supposed to do in this case? JIP | Talk 20:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Write PoriPori. 89.243.39.218 (talk) 11:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Is selecting a different question an option? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

You could choose a different question; or if that fails, choose a response which better fits. The questions are not designed by Swedes to be discriminatory against the Finns; the 5 character minimum is so that random-word guessing hacks have a harder time. You don't even have to be truthful, it just has to be something easily rememberable... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you know the name of the hospital or street? Perhaps you could put Länsi-Suomen lääni? Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

How about PoriSuomi? I doubt you'd be likely to forget that one. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 20:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Most security experts recommend not having the real answer. The reason is that anyone who knows you even reasonably well can guess it gain access to your personal data, essentially bypassing your password. I use a second passoword for all my security questions, and just make sure I don't forget both of them. Prokhorovka (talk) 20:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What about 'Pori' + '[year-of-birth]' (e.g. Pori1948)? Then it'll be less likely that you forget the extra numbers. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't you put a comma and then the nation? That's a pretty standard notation. APL (talk) 00:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with all these ideas is that there is a very good chance you won't remember what you wrote by the time you've forgotten your password. It really is very foolish of Microsoft, or whoever it was, to set restrictions on the answers... --Tango (talk) 03:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

It's foolish for MS to even use personal questions for a password reminder system. It's very insecure. You need one tied to a particular email address, phone number, or postal address. APL (talk) 12:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Using short answers makes them very, very vulnerable to brute-force techniques. Anyway, as noted, using "real" answers is dangerous anyway. (This is, incidentally, how Sarah Palin's e-mail got "hacked" during the US election—someone was able to guess the answers to these from knowing a little bit about her biography.) What do you do when the answer doesn't suffice? Use something else! Don't whine about it, that doesn't help anything, and it's such a petty grievance... there are far worse size-limitation grievances anyway. I have a long last name so university e-mails that involve automatic assignment based on name always cut it off in weird, arbitrary places. (Which really does have no excuse -- it's not like have a maximum character limit on user account names is really going to screw all that much up assuming they have the system set up sanely.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You could always reply with "your mother's birthplace" in Finnish. --Dweller (talk) 11:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Pick anything - write it down and hide the piece of paper someplace. Tape the piece of paper inside the cabinet of your PC! Other suggestions as to where to hide a written-down password+hints include to make up a fake entry in your address book:

  M.Y.Paaswurd,
  1234 MothersMaidenName Street,
  MothersPlaceOfBirth
  Finland.

Or to place it inside a sealed glass bottle and bury it in your back yard. My favorite is to unscrew a light switch fitting and tuck the piece of paper in there (keeping it away from the contacts at the back and being careful not to electrocute yourself in the process!) You can come up with a million hiding places for a 2" piece of paper! SteveBaker (talk) 13:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

And where do you hide the piece of paper telling your where to find the hidden piece of paper? ;) --Tango (talk) 16:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I forget. SteveBaker (talk) 17:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

weight of the average shotgun shell.

how much do shotgun shells weigh each? rob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.192.228 (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Shotgun shell? (which)71.236.26.74 (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

12 gauge, how much does an empty shell and a full shell weigh? thanks

Robin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.192.228 (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you read Shotgun shell#Shot sizes Robin? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't see where that article mentions the weight of an empty shell. It just lists the weights of the shot. --Sean 12:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Bicycles inner tube

Hi Guys,

I bought a bike the other month and want to buy another inner tube (long story..)., Anyway, its a shrader valve and a 700 x 22/23 c wheel but i can't find a suitable inner tube ANYWHERE online. The man in the shop said that they've stopped making them but how can this be? Its an inner tube not a ****ing VCR player!

Does any one know where i might get one or have an alternative solution? I'm based in the UK but obviously happy to pay intl' postage etc..

Thanks, 21:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

[6] They have an English language option on their site, but that doesn't work for this. You could try to send them an email at bestellung@rose.de if you don't dare navigate the German procedure. There's also a product that lets you turn your inner tube wheel into a tubeless one. I can't recall what it was called. Maybe s.o. else can help you out with that. (See Bicycle wheel#Tubeless) [7] [8] 71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's a French site [9]71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Inner tubes of different sizes will still fit the wheel. If the wheel diameter is 700, then another inner tube of larger cross section may even be better. If you do not already do so, then patch them. I would definately not advise solid tyres - I had them for a while and they required very much more effort to push along. Perhaps you could get a replacement tyre that required an inner tube that was more available. 89.243.39.218 (talk) 11:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Google gives over a 1000 results for "700 x 22/23c" including online shops. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&newwindow=1&q=%22700+x+22%2F23c%22&btnG=Search&meta= The spelling for the valve is Schrader and not Shrader as you wrote. Many of them look as if they are Schrader valves. If you cannot find a Schrader valve, which are similar to car tyre valves I think, then buy the more common Presta valve and buy a bicycle pump that fits a Presta. You might alsio be able to buy a pump adapter, or a pump that can do both types of tire. Presta valves are thinner than Schrader valves, so you might need an adapter for the valve hole in your tyre rim. 78.147.96.244 (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

June 9

Marinol vs canabis

Can natural canabis be detected from marinol in a urine analisis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.92.203 (talk) 00:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the widest (by most lanes) road in the world?

I went on a roadtrip and became curious regarding this subject since the widest road I've been on had 6 lanes but I know of many roads 8 lanes wide. However, after googling and wikipedying the subject, I didn't find the answer. So, what is the road that has the most lanes? And how many lanes are there on this road! Thanks in advance!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by VeronikaS (talk • contribs) 00:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

According to answers.com, there are 23 lanes at the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge Toll Plaza. (X! · talk)  · @112  ·  01:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The Toll Plaza may be what VeronikaS wants, but I would have thought that it represents a blip in the roadway, rather than the roadway itself. Across the city of Toronto, Hwy 401 is 18 lanes wide for much of this length: 5 "express" lanes in each direction, plus 4 "feeder" ("collector" or "access") lanes in each direction. // BL \\ (talk) 01:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't use highway 401 very often, but the last time I looked it was 16 lanes in Toronto, 4 on each roadway. The section in Mississauga past Toronto Pearson International Airport is 18 lanes, though, 5 express and 4 collector one way, 4 express and 5 collector the other way. You can look at aerial photos using the "satellite" button in Google Maps.

The FAQ list under www.roadfan.com says 401 is the widest at 18 or 20 lanes depending on how you count, and lists some other roads with many lanes. --Anonymous, 07:43 UTC, June 9, 2009.

Yeah, the Toll Plaza is not really a road, it's just where a number of roads combine and suddenly, briefly (in terms of space, not time—it takes for-ever to go through) widen, and then almost immediately contract again. --98.217.14.211 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC).

Don't communist countries (and formerly communist countries, and other places ruled by meglomaniac despots) love their very wide streets for parading hundreds of thousands of troops in front of el-presidente? Astronaut (talk) 19:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

9 de Julio Avenue in Buenos Aires, Argentina is often claimed to be the widest street in the world. It also connects, via the Arturo Illia expressway, to the Pan-American highway, often claimed to be the world's longest highway. According to Highway#Canada, Highway 401 is North America's busiest highway and the widest highway in the world at points at 9 lanes in each direction. Interestingly, at some point, it meets Yonge Street, which many Torontonians claim to be the longest street in the world. --132.206.33.12 (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

See the Yonge St. article linked above for a debunking of this claim. --Anonymous, 05:16 UTC, June 12, 2009.

A car question

My car (2007 Honda Civic) has a nice speaker system, so I often like to sit in it just to listen to music. My question is twofold:

• How long can I safely listen to music with just the car's battery power?
• How many gallons of gas per hour does a car use when it's running while idle?

--Remurmur (talk) 01:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

To answer the first question, we would obviously need to know the condition of your battery. Is it new? If not, how long as it been used for? With that said, if you feel that your battery is getting low, you can just recharge it by revving the engine or driving the car around. Acceptable (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Due to the way you asked your questions, I'd just like to point out that if your car is running, idling or moving, then the battery is not supplying power to the radio or any other component. At that point it would be your alternator that is powering the radio. Also, if you're just sitting there listening to the radio without the car's engine running, you're likely powering more than just the radio. Various lights are lighted on the dashboard and the car's computer systems may be getting power as well. Dismas|^(talk) 03:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The OP may have been trying to determine which of the two options (battery or engine) is the better one, so needs the details of both. --Tango (talk) 03:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The wisdom of random-stuff-found-on-Google suggests cars use between 0.2 and 1 gal per hour idling, with a central tendancy around 0.5. Dragons flight (talk) 03:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

My 2007 Honda CRV's battery gave up after an hour's radio listening without the engine running. The repair agent said that was about usual!--88.109.68.129 (talk) 06:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense! You must have had an amazingly crappy battery (Hmmm - a Honda CRV...well, maybe)...and this "repair agent" guy is a complete moron. A typical car battery in reasonable condition provides around 40 Amp-hours at 12 volts. For it to run down in an hour - your radio would have to be drawing 40 Amps! That's 480 Watts! That's a seriously powerful car radio! Don't read the "peak" numbers that the radio manufacturers quote. Most car radios have four 25 watt (peak) speakers and consume around 10 watts (continuous) - and would therefore run continuously at full volume for a couple of days before running down the battery. By comparison - a set of typical halogen headlamps pull 55 watts each - with the tail-lights on too - they'll flatten your battery in 3 hours.

To our OP: Unless you have some kind of crazy after-market high powered stereo system in your car, you can listen to the radio for a LONG time without having to start the engine - all day and all night at least. The car can recharge the battery in a very short period of time (5 to 10 minutes maybe) and the extra gasoline to do that is negligable compared to what it takes to move the car or even to just idle the engine. So if you're really worried, start the engine for 10 minutes every few hours and you'll be fine. Make sure your headlights and the heater fan are turned off though. SteveBaker (talk) 13:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, Steve. I was getting paranoid about listening to music for even an hour with the engine off. It's a great comfort to know that I should be able to listen to music for as long as I could reasonably want without worries.--Remurmur (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

My Dad's Audi has a factory-fit Blaupunkt radio/cd. It's supposed to shut down when you remove the ignition key, and if you want to keep listening you need to manually turn it back on. But several times its firmware has crashed, leaving it stuck on (playing no music, but with the amp audibly energised). My Dad, who isn't very technical, doesn't really notice, and so leaves it (the only fix is to remove the relevant fuse briefly). The battery certainly lasts two days; by about three there's barely enough juice to start the engine. Hopper Mine (talk) 16:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Cars used to have (1950's-early 1960's) vacuum tube radios, and you could run the battery down in an hour or two. Since then cars have used transistor radios. I have a transistor radio which will run for days on a 9 volt battery, which has way less than 1/2 ampere hour capability. Only if you have a big amplifier blasting away and annoying the neighbors should the battery run down in less than many days of continuous listening. But when the car in is "accessory" mode, there could be other phantom power drain other than the radio. Edison (talk) 17:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Please do not leave your car running when stationary - the noise is very unpleasant and irritating for those nearby, including those in houses that you might not notice. It also adds to polution. 89.243.39.218 (talk) 11:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

And, indeed, it may be illegal depending on your jurisdiction. Angus Lepper^{(T, C)} 16:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

When I have taken my kids to the drive-in theater we listen to the movie through the in-car stereo. The theater suggestion is to start the engine every half hour and let it idle for 5 minutes to keep the battery charged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.215.69 (talk) 19:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The actual amperage could be fairly high if you have say 4 channels amplified at 20 or 40 watts. But as I said above, that power level would annoy the neighbors.See [10] and [11]. Still, if blasting away, a car radio could probably draw over 10 amps, which would drain the battery in a few hours at most. Crank down the volume and the battery should last way longer. For some tech talk about the power draww of high wattage amps, see [12]. Edison (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

On defacing currency

Supposing I were to decorate Her Majesty's face on a banknote with an amusing beard and moustache or give her a funky pair of glasses,would the note still be legal tender and would I be liable to any punishment for it?-I've checked on currency and banknotes,but they say nothing.Should I prepare for a trip to the Tower now? Lemon martini (talk) 09:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it would still be legal tender, the whole point of legal tender is that it must be accepted as currency, so it's pretty hard to stop that. If you cut a note in half and stick it back together again, that's legal tender. As for punishment, according to our article on the crime, England and Wales does still have a minor offence of this type, though it is rarely enforced. Prokhorovka (talk) 09:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict) Under the Currency and Bank Notes Act 1928, as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1982 (Section 46), defacement of a bank note in any way makes one liable on conviction to a penalty not exceeding £200 for each offense, while under the Coinage Act 1936 the penalty for defacing a coin is imprisonment not exceeding 1 year. The involvement or not of Her Majesty's image in the defacement is immaterial.

In practice, prosecution would be unlikely unless it were performed on a large scale and/or with some intent to defraud, counterfeit or commit some other crime: banks and businesses regularly write check marks on bank notes to aid in counting.

Presumably this only applies to Bank of England notes, which are the only notes that are Legal tender in the UK. Scottish bank notes, for example, are not legal tender even in Scotland, but are of course acceptable as promissory notes similar to personal cheques or debit cards: I'm sure one can write what one likes (within reason) on one's own cheques. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Not if you put instructions giving the bank a discretion not to pay the amount indicated... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

An amusing case of defacement was in Nigeria where they used to have a tenth of a penny coins with a hole in the centre. An engineer used them wholescale instead of washers in some construction because they were cheaper and better quality than needed for the job. He got away with a ticking rather than being stuck in jail, if the penalty had been for each coin he'd never have got out. Dmcq (talk) 14:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

In the UK a few years ago I showed someone a funny effect you get when currency is folded with a sharp vertical crease through each eye of the Queen's portrait, and then a concave crease is created in between the two eyes, such that when you tilt it up she has a silly grin and when you tilt it down she frowns. This is a common trick with U.S. currency. Does this folding constitute "defacement of a bank note" or would it fall under some general heading of Lèse majesté leading to imprisonment in a dungeon of the Tower of London, if not Beheading? Edison (talk) 05:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I may have heard someone grumble that since 1982, when it was changed from mostly copper to mostly zinc, the cent (United States coin) is less suitable to patch a pinhole leak in a radiator. —Tamfang (talk) 06:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

When Australia brought in polymer banknotes, the $5 notes had poorly fixed ink. You could spit on the Queen's face, and rub it off with a finger. And looking up the wikilinks for the above an "in pop culture" type section reminded me that our Prime Minister of the time, Paul Keating, was filmed signing a $5 note for an autograph collector, and drew some criticism for defacing currency. --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 11:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeesh. Look, I'm an anti-royalist myself, as a political matter. But Elizabeth seems like a sweet old lady — do you have to make it so personal? --Trovatore (talk) 21:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

strange sea rectangles

What are the dark blue rectangles off the coast here: http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=38.7742945&lon=121.2665749&z=14&l=0&m=h? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandiaozi (talk • contribs) 14:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Link not working for me.Popcorn II (talk) 15:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm using IE right now, and it works fine for me. Clearly man-made. My guess is it's fishing-related - some kind of nets? Very interesting. I'd love to see an answer. If there's a relevant fishing/marine (etc) WikiProject or two, you could drop them a line (sorry about the pun) and see if they know. --Dweller (talk) 15:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Given that there seems to be construction for a seaport going on my best guess would be traces left by them deepening the sea near the wall. (Embarrassing, I used to work for a company that operated the barges they do such things with and now can't recall what those things were called =:-o) o.k. Dredging is what you'd be looking for. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 16:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Fishfarms? Astronaut (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree - it certainly looks like some kind of a dredging operation - either to deepen the water or to collect sand or rock to deposit someplace else. It's noticable that whatever they did, they carefully didn't do it at the entrance to the harbor. If you scroll over to the east a bit - you can see a strip of photography that doesn't match up - which was probably photos taken before the dredging operation started. SteveBaker (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it was once above water? Maybe it is the result of farming in some low-lying area that has become inundated with seawater. Is there any way to know the depth of the water in the areas containing the rectangles? If that explanation holds water (ha ha ha) it would necessarily be pretty shallow. I hope this explanation is not too shallow. Bus stop (talk) 17:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe a kelp farm? Leftover construction seems like a more plausable explanation. Livewireo (talk) 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it's mussel farming. The mussels are hung on ropes which are slung on poles. Look at this map [13]and you'll see that the largest mussel production comes from China and it corresponds to the latitude where most mussels are produced in Europe.Here is a reference to Dalian, the nearby port, having well developed aquaculture. [14] Here is another picture [[15]]Richard Avery (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Did anyone else notice that this is a submarine base? I doubt you'd be farming mussels there. Probably the result of some kind of military installation or construction work.

This area has been a naval base since the Qing Dynasty. These marks could stretch back quite some time... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Do respondants EVER read what previous people have pointed out? If you scroll the image to the east as I suggested - you'll see that what you just said is impossible. SteveBaker (talk) 03:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Which part? That it's not a mussel farm? Have you seen a mussle farm at a naval base? The two images seem to be taken in different conditions and different times of the day. That the marks show up in one and not the other don't necessarily prove a great deal. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm tempted to mention that it's been pointed out many times on these pages that "respondants" is a misspelling of "respondents", but for some it's in one ear and out the other. But that seems a little churlish, so I won't mention it.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 04:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Uh, Steve ... the marks still show up to the East. They show up as dotted white rectangles instead of dark blue rectangles, probably because of a change in lighting. Subtle, but definitely there. APL (talk) 04:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, let’s nail this answer. If you look at the second paragraph of the article on Coromandel in New Zealand you will see that one of its two main industries is mussel farming. If you then look at this [16] you can clearly see dark rectangles in the estuary very similar to those at Dalian. With regard to the presence of a submarine base in Dalian: I can’t see why there shouldn’t be mussel farming near the submarine base, which incidentally is not that close to the original area, the submarines only want a clear lane to enter and exit – which they clearly have. And anyway if you take the trouble to explore further around the coast in both directions you will discover large numbers of these rectangles, they can’t all be old ruins or dredging areas. It must be dredgers with a very tidy approach to life that dig out such precise shapes. Richard Avery (talk) 09:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is what they may look like up close, oyster beds in Brittany - File:Oyster culture in Belon, France 03.jpg and from the air [17]. Mikenorton (talk) 19:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

A google search about seafood farming in Lushunkou (the district around the naval base) shows up references to abalone farming -- could be that, too. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everybody. It really looks like it is shellfish or abalone farming. Bandiaozi (talk) 01:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

please help

My company is in the restructuring phase and has ardently revised all the remuneration and incentive policy just to realize it has forfeited all the monetary benefits and reduced the take home salary as a result however the expectation from the people is twice as much as it used to be. What do we understand from this as per them it is a restructuring policy after the takeover by the larger company and the morale of the people is depleting to perform better, we will very soon have an opportunity to meet the board members in an open forum and can ask questions as we please, so, what do I ask them. I am baffled with this shit..unsigned 203.122.36.6 (talk)

Please remember to click "Sign your posts on talk pages: ~ ~ ~ ~"

You sound baffled alright. Be sure to write down key points of your question in a bullet list. Then write down a short sentence around each. Just read that from a card at the meeting and you'll have more success in getting a reply. (I have the same problem sometimes when my mind is full. I do these long run arguments and people get lost. When I edit it before I go I can break my ideas into manageable chunks...most of the time.)

• The company got taken over and is restructuring
• They cut all the benefits and reduced employees pay
• They expect twice as much work to be accomplished than before
• Employees are offered little incentive to work harder and morale is dropping - On the whole not unheard of. Quite usual actually. First the good news, you still got a job. They didn't just lay off everyone and close the place down. The meeting may not accomplish anything useful. IMHO these things are fig-leaf efforts to show share-holders, the media and unions that "they have open discussions with the staff" (big whoop). The best way to get something out of it is if you fight with numbers and have a clear plan. Get together with some colleagues if you can and dig up as much info as you can. Things that would be useful are: 1. What is the company's market share (%) before and after the merger? 2. How does it compare to the competition quality wise? (You might e.g. find consumer rating sites and compare number of complaints. There are magazines that do that, too.) 3. How many employees make how much product at your major competitors? - How does your company compare? 4. How long has the average employee been with this company. (Best done by job category.) What is their training level. 5. Look at an annual report your company filed. Compare the fixed assets they listed there to the price paid for the takeover. - Divide any excess by number of employees. (A bit bogus, but they aren't likely to fight fair with their numbers either.) >> So far we've looked at figures they are likely to have looked at while deciding what to do with you. Now we're looking at your side: 1. Put numbers to any lost benefits like free soda, low price company cafeteria etc. 2. Put numbers to average bonus payments and other incentives per job category. 3. Compare that to what your competitors are offering. (If that doesn't get you desirable numbers, compare to companies that might hire someone with the skills in question.) 4. Look online for sites that tell you how much it costs companies to hire people. (There should be a couple.) 5. Ditto for cost of training new hires. 6. Put some figure for every year employees have stayed at the company. Add it all up and use this as a price of "collected experience" of their workforce. (The cost of a year of vocational school could be a good base figure here e.g.) 7. Look at job adds and try to put a figure to the percentage of people who could find jobs elsewhere, particularly considering the new lower pay. 8. Try to find out their revenue per production item. Use that to come up with a figure for how may units they'd have to sell to replace each experienced worker lost. 9. Look at existing pension and health insurance benefits. If it sounds expensive divide the figure by production per employee per year for the period. >>>What you seem to be dealing with here is what I call management by spreadsheet. Have a look through Index of management articles to see what they think of. Such people think along the lines of "one engineer butt fits one engineer chair." What you can do with your question is to make them realize their workforce has an inherent value and there's a financial risk in real numbers involved in not trying to keep them. (Depending on the figures you find that may or may not work.) Next try ask how your remaining benefits are insured and what their plans are for the future. If you want to push them ask them whether they'd be willing to put down in writing that they'd bring back your incentives once the company's doing better. Hope this helps. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Passenger side airbags in Renault Clio

Someone I know has a pretty old Renault Clio. What's the easiest way to find out if it has a passenger side airbag fitted? It's a J registration in the UK, if that's any help. --Dweller (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is the easiest way to find out. ;) Franamax (talk) 20:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I see that means it's a 1991-92 model, based on some encyclopedia article I found. --Dweller (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Look under the seat; if there is cabling for the pressure sensor, then there is a passenger airbag. I'm not sure, however, that absence of a sensor is necessarily evidence of absence of an airbag, at least on an older car. Hopper Mine (talk) 15:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I doubt an 18 year-old car would have even a driver-side airbag, unless it was a luxury, top of the range model (ie. not a Clio) That said, take a look at the dashboard in front of the passenger seat. If it has an airbag logo and/or definite signs of a blow-away panel then it has an airbag. Another thing to look for is the "Don't put your baby here" warning label near the passenger seat. Astronaut (talk) 16:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Renault only started adding airbags to their cars as standard features in the mid-1990's - they were an option in some models for a few years before that. Mostly, they added driver-side airbags first and passenger-side came along years later. So I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that you have a driver side airbag and almost zero chance that there is a passenger one. But certainly look at the dashboard - they almost always label the area where the bag will pop out. I doubt they had either an under-seat pressure sensor or a "Don't put your baby here" sign in 1992 - at that time, passenger-side airbags were pretty rare and I doubt that the risk to babies in the front seat was known. SteveBaker (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Digital camera product lines

I've wondered about this a lot lately. Why do digital camera companies seem to have very many product lines for compact cameras, but always only one single one for SLRs? JIP | Talk 17:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a guess : compact cameras probably sell a lot more and are more of a fashion statement. SLRs are only for the small percentage of people who are seriously about photography. APL (talk) 18:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That's true in regard of the number of actual cameras produced and sold. In the same regard, I've heard that the number of true high-end professional SLR cameras like the Hasselblad H3D II, sold per year, for all companies combined, is less than Canon alone sells cameras per day. But my question is not about the number of individual cameras within one product line, it's about the product lines themselves. For example, Canon has at least two compact camera lines: Digital Ixus and Powershot, but only one SLR line: EOS. Olympus has at least three compact camera lines: C, FE, and µ, but only one SLR line: E. Why is the compact camera market much more diverse than the SLR one? JIP | Talk 18:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Product differentiation has a lot to do with that. Basically you can cover the entire market segment of people willing to buy a SLR camera with one model at one price. (People who want to buy a "JipSRL camera" will do so because of the features you offer and are all willing to pay the price you charge for that.) To cover the maximum share you can of the compact camera market you have to offer something that makes your camera different from that of other manufacturers. You will probably also have to offer cameras that are cheaper and can offer some that are "high-end"=expensive. To differentiate the camera you buy your kids for $X.00 from the one you give your wife for her birthday at $Y.00 you have to make it look different. To offer the cheaper one you'll likely also have to skimp on something to keep your margin. So you get the kids model with big buttons in candy colors and you get the "sophisticated" model with a sleek look etc. An added advantage is that the more models you offer the more shelf-space the retailer has to sacrifice to your models rather than to your competitors. So consumers see a yard of "JIPclick" compacts for say each foot of "Snapclick" who offers fewer models. This Japanese study is a bit outdated, but might be interesting nevertheless. [18]71.236.26.74 (talk) 19:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

EOS is the name of Canon's camera system and Olympus's is called the E-system. If there is a trend toward consistent naming of DSLRs, it's probably to advertise the fact that, while you may be locking yourself into one maker, at least you're not locking yourself into a subset of their product line. There's no need for standardization of the point-and-shoots. Incidentally, all of Canon's point-and-shoot digitals are branded PowerShot in the Americas (Digital IXUS 85 = PowerShot SD770), and the lower-end EOS models are called [EOS] Digital Rebel (EOS 400D = Digital Rebel XTi). -- BenRG (talk) 21:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that a compact camera and an SLR are not really comparable products. Most compact cameras are complete and unmodifiable, so you can't extend their capabilities beyond what you initially buy; thus to cover the diverse requirements of different users, a range of different compacts is necessary.

By contrast 'an' SLR is not a fixed item: to the basic body one can add many different lenses, filters, backs (i.e film or digital), flashes etc, and change them at will, offering a much greater range of capabilities and usually better picture quality than any one compact. 217.19.134.11 (talk) 12:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I'd put Nikon's D5000 and D700 in the same "line". At the very least, they differ in sensor size. Similarly, Canon has a consumer level and professional level DSLRs. --LarryMac | Talk 14:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Joke Baseball Cap With Hammer On It

I'm trying to make a joke (pun) for a Japanese friend, and I've been looking for a picture of the cap that Chris Evans (I think) used to wear with the hand and the hammer coming out of it. This image is necessary for the joke to work in Japanese. However, I want a picture of the cap on its own, and not with him under it. If I GImage 'hammer+hat+joke', I get random pictures of hats, hammers, and jokes, as well as other pictures which are not even relevant. Can anyone help out here? Just the hat on a white background would be great, like something you'd use to sell one on eBay. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I tried that combination in GImage myself, and while there are interesting results if you go far enough there doesn't seem to be anything remotely relavant. If we can get a picture with the guy wearing his hat, maybe someone could use Photoshop or similar to cut the hat out the image? Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, it was more likely Timmy Mallett than Chris Evans, but I can't find an image either.Popcorn II (talk) 18:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Which Christopher Evans might help unless s.o. knows exactly what you are talking about. If no one comes up with it, you might be able to use some of these for some photoshoping [19], [20], [21],[22] [23] [24]. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 19:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Photoshopping the guy out of the picture is trivial - I could do it in minutes - but what bothers me is the copyright issues associated with doing that. If you can find a copyright-free or GFDL'ed photo, I'd be happy to attack it with GIMP to remove the extraneous crap...but I'm not going to violate copyright in order to do that - and neither should you. SteveBaker (talk) 03:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It is not violating copyright to modify an image unless you publish it. Showing the image to a friend is not publishing it. And even if it was you should anyway, but that's a matter of opinion of course. 213.122.19.7 (talk) 06:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That's not true - it has nothing to do with whether you publish it or not - or whether it's for personal use or not. What you are not allowed to do is to COPY it...which includes copying it onto your computer. SteveBaker (talk) 13:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I've heard it called the "knock your block off hat", but google comes up blank. HTH, Robinh (talk) 09:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no copyright issue with this. I'm not making a book and intending to sell it to make profit. I'm simply trying to make a joke pic that I can send to a Japanese friend. I just don't want Chris Evans or Timmy Mallet in the pic (for two reasons: 1 - I can't stand either of them; and 2 - my Japanese friend will have no idea who they are and will possibly be distracted from the primary purpose of the joke). I'm just looking for a picture of the hat, just the hat. And, while we are on the subject of copyright, shouldn't all public images be, well, public, after they have been made public? If there is no little 'c' with a circle around it, then they should be used freely. This is another topic, though, to be saved for another day. Back to the original question. Can anyone find the bloody hat?!?! :) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a common misconception that you can copy copyrighted material so long as you don't make a profit - that's categorically not true. Merely copying it onto your computer is a violation of copyright...that's why it's called a "COPYright" - it is about the right to make a copy - and you don't have that right. There are exceptions under "fair use" - but I strongly suspect that what you're talking about doing does not constitute fair use. Copyright automatically belongs to the creator and you most certainly do not have to have the little 'c' in a circle - the fact that he put the picture up on his web site for you to look at doesn't make a difference either. Unless the place you get it from explicitly SAYS that you're allowed to copy it - and under what terms - you most certainly are not. You may well argue that you "should" be allowed to do this - and I'd probably agree with you - but that doesn't change the law. Of course you would almost certainly get away with it - but that's hardly the point. SteveBaker (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

So, Steve, my internet cache (and that of every other living soul on the planet that has a computer and uses the internet) is breaching copyright, as it makes copies of every file and photo I view? Bloody hell, we're all in for it! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That's true: for example. Numerous copyright law experts have looked into this and technically, a browser cache is a copyright infringement. Some people claim that merely transferring the data into RAM on your computer (which is absolutely the only concievable way to display it) is sufficient to get you into trouble. Sadly, that would makes pretty much all internet use (even Wikipedia) illegal. I didn't say it was a good law...but it is the law. SteveBaker (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

If the law supposes that, then the law is a ass. 209.251.196.62 (talk) 13:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Take your own pictures of a hat and a hammer (and whatever else you need.) You own the copyrights to these. Photoshop the result. Arch dude (talk) 14:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't really understand what's being talked about here and have no idea what this hammer/hat thing would be but it sounds like the image could be a derivative work in which case while you may own the copyright to your work, it could still be a copyright violation Nil Einne (talk) 03:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Strange that everyone here knows exactly what you're talking about, yet there seems to be zero images on the internet that you can show your friend - I'm pretty sure showing the image to your friend doesn't breach copyright (just like singing in the shower isn't stealing music ... but then again what will lawmakers think of next?) Astronaut (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, folks, thanks for the answers, but can we just forget about copyright for a moment and get on with the task in hand? Can anyone find a picture of this hat? It's been driving me mad for days! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Dreams

Do people born deaf and dumb and blind dream and if they do what do they dream? BigDunc^Talk 20:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You don't as far as I know have an electric sense, you can't echolocate, your sense of smell is lousy, you can't detect magnetic fields, you can't see the polarization in light or the ultraviolet colours of flowers, and you don't have long sensitive whiskers with which to feel your way around. And yet you still manage to dream. How do you manage it with such restricted senses? Dmcq (talk) 22:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a good question that has been well studied by psychologists and neurologists. The short answer is that they do dream but without "visual" images or "sounds". The longer answer is that we need to be careful in defining what we exactly mean by those quoted terms. See these links and their references for more details: [25], [26] and [27]. (All these studies are for blindness alone, but my guess is that the results can be extrapolated to your scenario.) Abecedare (talk) 23:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

And here is some discussion of Helen Keller's dreams. Abecedare (talk) 23:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yet people who have never flown (except for falling or on board an airplane) can readily dream of unassisted flying. Vividly. Edison (talk) 05:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

True, but not really unexpected. For sighted people, dreaming of flying involves "plotting" a novel combination of sight, sound, and balance sense experience, but does not require the invention of any new "sensory mode". Abecedare (talk) 10:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes but when I dream sometimes I have extra senses, such as the ability to read people's minds and see in infra-red and smell colours. Also the ability to speak to animals, specifically kitties. How do you explain that? TastyCakes (talk) 15:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, let me make a guess: when you dream of seeing in infra-red, you see images such as this one. Right ? Seeing (or dreaming of) such images does not constitute "seeing" infrared, i.e., (roughly speaking) no neurons are firing in your visual cortex in response to light stimulus at the infrared frequency. Equating such images to "seeing infrared" is just a cultural artifact; we have learned to associate such 'weirdly colored" pictures with infrared photography through TV, movies, and books and there is no actual infrared sensory process involved. (To be pedantic, our skin can "see" infrared through its thermoreceptors but its resolution and sensitivity is pretty weak compared to our ability to see electromagnetic radiation in the visible range through our eyes. So I am betting that that is not what you are referring to.)

As for smelling color: such mingling of sensory modes is seen in some people with synaesthesia, but my guess is that your brain is just fooling you with the idea of smelling color, just as you can imagine looking through walls. Speaking to animals involves no new sensory mode; only the ability to perceive sound. Abecedare (talk) 18:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Abecedere is right, a couple times when I've done it, in fact, it bore a striking resemblence to how Peter Pan did it in movies, so even that may come down to images people have in their brains for some.

As for extra senses, never had the infra-red one but I always felt the rare ability to read others' minds, like with knowing what was going on, was like an actor knowing the "script" beforehand; how else would I know that I was a United States Secret Service agent protecting President Pierce on an Air Force One that looked like a B-17 Bomber once in a dream 15 or so years ago, especially since in real life President Pierce served 50 years before the invention of the airplane!

I believe dreams are often ways to let our minds explore. Randomizing (like the one I mentioned) happens sometimes, and that includes giving animals speech.

So, to answer the OP's question, I think that someone totally blidn from birth would dream as often as others, but without input from the senses they don't have. Each of the above examples involved senses the person did have, after all; they were just combined in a new and interesting way.Somebody or his brother (talk) 18:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Let us put it in this way. When you dream, different parts of your brain are activated, They dance around for whatever reason, conjuring up all sorts of weird and often not terribly coherent sensations. Someone blind from birth will have far less developed visual organs in their brain than someone who has not. Cognitive scientists have found that this does in fact seriously inhibit their idea to do lots of "visual" things—not just having visual-based dreams, but even using visual-derived metaphors as easily as a sighted person. This doesn't mean they lack imagination, but it does mean that when you brain reaches for a word, a sensation, a memory, it's going to reach in the parts of the brain that are better developed. This is not the case if someone could see for awhile and then lost the ability—in such instances, the visual cortex is relatively developed compared to someone who has never seen from birth. The "dream" aspect of this is just one reflection of this. Analogies with flying and other activities are not apt—we're talking about a basic sense here. It would be more relevant to ask if the deaf could hear in their dreams. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

My OP concerned a person with no senses from birth be it sight, hearing or speech what benchmarks so to speak have they got for dreams. BigDunc^Talk 19:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Such persons still have the sense of touch, balance pain etc and of course higher cognition and consciousness, which allows them to dream. Read this book extract (also linked above), which describes and contrasts dream experiences of Helen Keller and Laura Bridgman, both of whom were deaf-blind. Abecedare (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

My husband, who works as a trainer in mental health awareness, recently became involved in a discussion with some of his trainees on a course where several of the delegates were deaf and had interpreters to assist them. Another trainee posed the question: "I have an internal monologue that provides a backdrop to my day; do deaf people have something similar?" The consensus from the deaf participants was that they do indeed have an internal narrative; those who once had hearing may "hear" their own voice speaking out loud in their internal monologue and also in their dreams; those deaf throughout their lives, who have sign language as their first language, tend to see a signing interpreter, or the impression of signing hands, who express their mental monologue as it occurs. It seems to depend on the person, their past experience, and their perception of the way they naturally organise their thoughts. Karenjc 22:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

June 10

KRA's

Hi..

Am curretnly working in an HR department fr a Pharma company. I've been assigned a project of designning Key Result Areas(KRA's) for the formulations plants of the company.. Can some1 help me out regarding how should i start off with it and what all to include? I owuld be really grateful. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.187.136.19 (talk) 10:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you don't seem to know what is expected, I think you need to suck it up and go to your boss and have a specific discussion about what is expected of you for this project. If this is a project that will affect other managers, or any other stakeholders, then tell the boss that you're planning to meet with all the stakeholders before you begin in order to get lists of their priorities and what is important to them on this; but before you do that, you want the boss's direction on what exactly is needed, so the KRA's (a term that I am not familiar with; it may be jargon within your company) don't go off the rails and get too broad. What is the objective of this KRA list — is it just to create a general HR wishlist, like "improve employee retention, improve the prospect of recruiting, improve safety, improve morale", or is the objective to ultimately improve the quality of the formulations — get an idea of what is the point and what exactly the boss wants before you begin. Tempshill (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Our articles don't seem to be that great, but reading up on Profit center and Cost centre (business) might help. (My to do list just got longer by three articles. Anyone wanting to tackle these?) This definition ghit looks pretty useful [28]. Tempshill's advice is an excellent place to start. Also ask who the intended users are. Is this part of their Strategic planning or something they wish to present to investors or the media? This looks to be the latest buzz in management by spreadsheet to try and figure out what their numbers aren't telling them. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 19:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Customer insight and Customer retention are other things to look into. Given that you are dealing with formulation plants this may not apply. (Again our pages could stand improvement, but you can google with those concepts.) --71.236.26.74 (talk) 02:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Since the OP is in his company’s HR department, it would make sense that the “key results” relate to employee performance. Google returns 40,400 hits for “key result areas” + “human resources." DOR (HK) (talk) 04:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Which foreign Language ?

I am an undergraduate engineering student from India. I am thinking about learning a foreign language which would be useful for me in the future. I need some help and advice, on which language(s) to learn. I am thinking about Spanish, German and French. I feel there is a very good chance for me to go abroad for further studies, and more likely in US, so keeping that in mind i need suggestions on what to choose. Can someone please help me ? Rkr1991 (talk) 10:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Spanish and French are both spoken very widely, so personally I would suggest one of those. German would be useful but I don't think as much as the others. Spanish is the second most spoken language in the US (Languages of the United States) so on a numbers basis that wins, but French is well spoken in Canda and is the second-most spoken language there (Languages of Canada). I'm not sure if the engineering industry is more or less biased to a specific language but from a whole-of-country perspective i'd go with French of Spanish. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I live in France, the trend here is towards English. The Education Minister wants all school leavers to have English. French is a lovely language, but Spanish opens far more doors. And is a language that is not under threat. So, for me, English and Spanish are the ones.86.216.249.205 (talk) 14:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)DT

Of course, i do have sufficient knowledge of English, so I think I am open to suggestions other than English. Also i would appreciate if you can arrange these in descending order, so it would be helpful for me to make a decision. Rkr1991 (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm I guess it depends on where you want to be. As far as getting by in America, English is clearly enough. If you want to travel in latin America, Spanish is the obvious choice. French will be of limited use in North America, even in Quebec you can get by with just English in the cities (well, Montreal at least). If you are looking for which language will be the most use in general, and don't care if it's a romance language or of use in North America, perhaps you'd be interested in reading the Languages by speakers list to see what will get you understood by the most people. Of course it helps if it gets you understood in a place you want to go... You should probably also consider that some languages (ie Germanic ones) are going to be easier to learn with an understanding of English than others. TastyCakes (talk) 14:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

You could also write your own ticket with Arabic or Mandarin Chinese. Livewireo (talk) 18:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, if you're interested in learning a language for work, Mandarin especially would seem a good choice. TastyCakes (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If you want one of the languages you mention then, if you're intending to go to the US, Spanish would be the most useful. I support what is said above about learning Mandarin Chinese, though. While it may not be as useful a language as those you mention (although that is disputable), it is known by so few people outside China that you would be in high demand. --Tango (talk) 00:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

On the same sort of grounds as Chinese, how about Russian? 93.97.184.230 (talk) 07:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Choosing to go bankrupt in England, and moving abroad afterwards

I live in England, and I've heard about some people choosing to go bankrupt, especially as a way of eliminating student debt, when they did in fact have other options. Can't find any details though. I suspect this is illegal and anyone who really did it would want to keep quiet, but perhaps someone can tell me the terms I should be googling?

Also curious about moving abroad after bankruptcy. Is it possible to go bankrupt then start a new job overseas, provided one keeps up any payments the court might have ordered? Seems that would allow bankrupts a fresh start, in terms of reputation and credit ratings, several years earlier than those staying put - which sounds a bit too easy to be honest. Facts anyone? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 15:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Being declared Bankrupt is a very serious event, not something that people should do to avoid debt they could reasonably repay. It has major impacts on your ability to get credit in the future. It would very likely have an impact on any attempted emigration, but that would depend on country to country. Given that many (developed at least) countries have very stringent immigration rules i'd be very surprised if former bankruptcies wouldn't be a major hindrance. In short, if you are thinking that bankruptcy is a quick way to clear debts then you should seek financial advice, it is (and should be seen as) a very last resort. This website (http://www.insolvency.gov.uk) gives more info ny156uk (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not seriously considering this myself. Still have two years of my course to go, and anyway it does seem a bit too good to be true. But regarding emigration, I was thinking of another EU country. I speak a couple of European languages at different levels, and I'd like to work in Europe after graduation in any case. As far as I know, my credit rating would not follow me abroad, and (as long as I could find a job) bankruptcy wouldn't affect my right to live elsewhere in the EU. Is that correct? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 17:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely too good to be true. Student loans are exempt from bankruptcy, you still have to pay them. --Tango (talk) 18:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I know student loans aren't covered by bankruptcy, but is there anything to stop you getting a bunch of expensive (ie easy to qualify for) credit cards and paying them off first? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 18:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Taking a loan that you intend not to pay is fraud, and could earn you a criminal record and land you in prison. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

(undent): As I understand it, one of the only reasons you wouldn't be able to live elsewhere in the EU as a British citizen is if you were unemployed. If the bankruptcy had an adverse effect on your employability, I suppose it could make it difficult. TastyCakes (talk) 19:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but provided I'm employed, for any pay, I still qualify. [29] Presumably I'd be eligible for consideration for any working benefits (like UK tax credits) in my new home. I'd be happy to do minimum wage bar work and live in a student house for a year. After that I'd be free, while staying at home and paying off debts like a good little boy would take half of forever. You're actually starting to convince me I should do this.... ;-> 86.166.68.203 (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

A recent documentary (on the BBC?) featured a student who had to drop out less than a year into his course after he racked up £40,000 in debt. After 8 years "on the run", doing crappy jobs and moving house regularly, he finally admitted it had messed his life up so much he was going to declare himself bankrupt. That offered some stability in his life and a long term plan to pay back the money he owed, including a student loan, but it would be years before he and his girlfried could attempt to marry or buy a house. Still, he hadn't though of fleeing abroad. Astronaut (talk) 19:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Just tried googling student+bankrupt+bbc but haven't found the programme. You haven't still got the link by any chance? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 21:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It was called "How to Rob a Bank", as I recall. --Tango (talk) 21:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, when you immigrate to a country you have to have enough money to show you can support yourself. I would expect that bankruptcy would be a major hindrance to this. When applying for credit in your new country you would also have to state whether you have been bankrupt in the last few years; I don't believe that is restricted to the country of application. So the bankruptcy is going to cause you a lot of trouble for a long time. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

When moving to another EU member state, I just have to get a job within 3 months and avoid claiming state benefits for the first 6. There's no requirement to show cash on entry. As for credit applications, I wouldn't be able to borrow in any case until I'd been there a year or more and had a local credit rating. I realise it would be frugal, at least to start off with. But since it would be just as bad trying to keep afloat in the UK with huge living costs as well as my student debt, that doesn't really put me off. I do realise that it could be harder to settle in a non-European country later though, and will keep it in mind. 86.166.68.203 (talk) 23:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

When you applied for credit they would ask you for any previous addresses within the past X years (I can't remember what X usually is, more than 1, though) and when you answered with a UK address I'm pretty sure they would get your UK credit report. They would then realise you were a bankrupt and, even if it wasn't illegal for you not to have told them (I don't know if it would be or not), they wouldn't lend you any money. If you gave a false address, that would be fraud, which is definitely illegal. --Tango (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Go and talk to your local Citizens' Advice Bureau. They will be much better informed than us, give impartial advice based on what is best for you, and will have seen a lot of people go through bankruptcy. They will be able to tell you what the consequences would actually be, and whether you would be able to move to the EU. Visiting them is free, and always a good idea with anything like this. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and I might do that. The reason I posted here though is that I'm not likely to be in such a bad position after graduating that bankruptcy is my only option. It would be a choice, and I suspect the CAB has rules against advising people to do it - even if it makes sense in the long run. Or am I being paranoid? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 22:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the CAB has rules about giving good advise, whatever that advise may be. They won't advise you to break the law, but apart from that they will work through all your options with you and try and help you work out what is best for you. --Tango (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

One more thing to consider. If you don't wish to bunk with pals for eternity then you have to sign (or co-sign) a contract for an apartment at some point. Management companies (at least in the EC countries I did this in) will ask for your previous addresses, references and financial information. Your U.K. bankruptcy will come up and you'll have to find someone who'd be willing to guarantee your rent for you. (i.e. state in writing they'd pay if you didn't.) If you fail to provide that you won't get the apartment and that's likely to put a significant dent into your social or even your romantic life. (OR met someone who tried to scoot on a U.K. student loan. The story ended up with her mom finding out, paying up and reminding her of that fact with regular frequency.) --71.236.26.74 (talk) 03:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, good point. Is it harder on the Continent to rent by just paying a deposit, like in the UK? When I lived in France I was in fact bunking with friends, so have no experience of renting over there. 86.166.68.203 (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't know about France, the company did that one. In Germany they wanted both a hefty deposit and an income history supplied by the company. In Spain they didn't want a deposit, but wanted a guarantee from the company. In Sweden they charged a reasonable deposit but also asked about funds when they found out we weren't local. If you are employed your company might be able (and maybe willing) to smooth over some of this, but I'd say it's risky. Plus it will take at least a decade to live that one down. If you lie on the forms the can throw you out without notice. As far as stress level goes paying back the loan is likely to be the better choice. (..and yes I do remember paying back mine was a drag and I had to skimp on everything for a while.) 71.236.26.74 (talk) 05:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The CAB is impartial and separate from the authorities: this causes them difficulties with funding, but also has the very important result that they can give you advice about all sorts of things that the authorities would rather they wouldn't. They'll work through your options and tell you what the likely consequences would be of various options. Seriously (and OR) I've known someone ask the CAB for advice after they were arrested; they made no secret of the fact that they did what they were arrested for, but there was a technicality. The CAB helped them get off - if there are loopholes in the law, they should be available to everyone (not just the rich), and if the police/authorities haven't stuck to the law/procedure, they shouldn't be able to just carry on. The CAB serves a valuable purpose that doesn't include making moral judgements about what you do. They will give you good advice: go talk to them. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 19:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be nice to think that someone with a bit of imagination and some real influence over UK education funding policy is reading this thread, although I doubt it. Karenjc 22:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

orgasms

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This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

I'm sorry; we can't offer you any sort of diagnostic or prognostic guesses. Your doctor or another trusted individual should be consulted if you are concerned about your sexual health. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see this talk page thread. Abecedare (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Cashiers check vs. withdrawal check

Are these the same? Source here [30]--80.58.205.37 (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No. At least, in the way they use the terms, they describe two different features. Here's the way I read it:

• A withdrawal check is any check that removes money from your account with them. Since they will make less profit from your money going forward, they charge you for such removals. This is fairly standard throughout the industry, by the way.
• A cashier's check is a check written by the bank on your behalf, usually to convey your money to another party; such a check is considered to be slightly more reliable than a personal or corporate check. You get one of these from your bank or CU, who verifies you have sufficient cash in your account -- and then promptly removes it. Cashier's checks normally clear (which means, the money conveyed becomes available to the payee) 3-5 days after receipt.
• (Compare that to: a personal check, which is usually held for 5-10 business days before the payee is sufficiently confident it won't bounce; or to a wire transfer, which happens "same day" and is guaranteed available same day -- in other words, no hold.)

Whey they talk about writing a cashier's check to you upon request, you benefit because you will not have to wait 3-5 days after depositing it before you can re-spend it on something.

HTH -- DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Wha trtecycling bin would a telephone book go in?

Last fall, our community started a recycling program wherein things are picked up at the curb after people separate them. Our new phone books have come, and I have not heard anything about what to do with them. It don't believe we recycle the books separately, though I've read that some communities do.

The pages almost feel like newspapre, not the magazine type paper or computer paper that would be done separately. WOuld they just go in with newspaper, with the section tabs separate, or what? Or, who knows, maybe they'd separate once they got there. Yeah, I could call the city, but I figure instead of wasting a phone call and the runaround I might get there, I'd see if y'all knew. Thanks.Somebody or his brother (talk) 18:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If it helps, in my community (outside of Philadelphia, PA, USA) telephone books get recycled in the same bin as newspapers. I doubt that it's universally applicable, but there ya go. --Zerozal (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It almost certainly varies by area, and you don't say where you are. Different regions/countries have different categories; some have special telephone-book recycling programs around the time new books are issued, others will take them with regular paper, or not. Because they're printed on special paper they can't always go in with regular paper. You could talk to your city authorities, or check their website, recycling points, etc.--82.41.11.134 (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This kind of thing goes by what processes the recycling center uses and who buys their products. So asking at the city is going to give you a much more relevant answer than us doing a "could be". If you can't get a response at your sanitation department, check if you can find the number for the recycling center directly (or the company if it's outsourced) - now that you have a new phonebook :-) They have you separate out different kinds of paper so they can treat it in ways to remove the ink and binders and the like. The more uniform your collected recycling paper is the better you can suit your process to that and get a better end result. The more uniform the pulp product they get from that is, the more desirable it is to producers who buy it. So if you don't want to spoil a batch for them asking is the better option. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Many recycling operations handle ordinary (white paper) phone directories and similar catalogues though their standard paper/cardboard route, but either reject Yellow Pages directories and other yellow-paper items, or have special (sometimes seasonal) arrangements for them, because the yellow dye is hard to remove. It would be prudent to assume this unless told otherwise. 217.19.134.11 (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Resource for military dress online?

I'm looking for somewhere online where I can have a look at WWII military dress. Specifically the Allied troops in East India such as The Fourteenth Army or the Gurkhas or indeed anyone involved in the Burma Campaign of 1944.Popcorn II (talk) 18:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

largest check

What is the largest amount of money ever used on a single check? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

According to this the largest check ever cashed was $49,098,000. Bear in mind that I could write a check for as much as I wanted (£1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000), though of course it would never be cashed...--92.251.137.146 (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

[31] from 1918 says J.P Morgan had recently written a hundred million dollar check. As for "large" checks, the story shows one 22 inches long. [32] from 2002 says a check for 225 million dollars was then the largest to date, although [33] from 2004 says the largest check made out to an individual was one for $546,549,171 to Howard Hughes in 1966 in exchange for his interest in TWA. Edison (talk) 21:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If you allow for cheques denominated in a hyperinflating currency, then you can get some really big numbers. --Tango (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Though it might not be the best idea to accept a cheque (and wait for it to clear) in a situation like that! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed; you might be better off finding a better use for the paper it's written on.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

True, I was thinking the largest amount that was cashed or deposited when converted to US dollars not accounting for inflation. IE a $101M check from 2008 would still beat a $99M check from 1950. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Aramco, the largest financial transaction in history was the 100% stake acquisition of the Arabian American Oil Company by the Saudi Arabian government in 1980. (Rather, as they phrase it, "the largest amicable acquisition of corporate assets in American history." The net value of the transfer is not clear; there is no requirement to disclose the total assets transferred. (Aramco is a private corporation (or something - I am not sure what to call a "government-owned" corporation when a monarch owns the government - it's "something else" - "Saudi Aramco reports to its owner, the Saudi Arabian Government, through the Supreme Council for Petroleum and Minerals Affairs, chaired by the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King 'Abd Allah ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz Al Sa'ud."). However, the yearly revenue is about 200 billion US dollars, so you can sort of guess what the total value of the corporate assets are... Nimur (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Many large transactions are paid for by wire transfer, so there is no check involved. However, IPOs used to be paid by check and perhaps still are. I remember going to an IPO closing some 20 years ago and holding the check, which was for more than $400 million. The Visa IPO that closed in March 2008 was the biggest IPO on record, I believe, with $17.9 billion raised in the initial closing. After deducting offering expenses, there presumably was a check for somewhere between $16 and $17 billion. If so, that would be a contender for the all-time largest check. John M Baker (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

June 11

Employment earnings - paycheck exposure to other employees

Laws regarding a person's earnings (paychecks) available to all other employees within the company - Lack of confidential protection on the data base - which enables all employees to access your earnings. ? What are the laws regarding employers who do not protect your personal earnings based on commission sales from other employed pesonnel.

HELP, thank you

In which country? Astronaut (talk) 13:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In France almost every salary, etc., is public property. They have no concerns about privacy on such matters, neither on age. It is routine to be asked one's age on one's birthday. Even tiny children ask the aged. Healthy in many ways.90.0.5.203 (talk) 14:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)DT

Management pay and bonuses have to be disclosed in the financial statements of companies traded at the stock exchange.71.236.26.74 (talk) 14:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In Norway you can see what everyone in the country earned and how much tax they paid in a particular tax year just by typing their name into an online query. Everyone does this as soon as the figures come out each year, special deals with particular employees don't stay secret for long. On the whole this transparency is a good thing IMO, even if it's a little disconcerting the first time a colleague quotes your earnings at you. Mikenorton (talk) 15:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You don't say where you're at, as noted above. In the US, I have not heard of any state that regards your salary or bonus as a protected piece of personal information that the company is prohibited by law from disclosing (whether intentionally or accidentally). It is certainly very standard for companies to keep this information confidential, but it's not a requirement — I seem to remember that in the early days of NeXT, everyone earned the same salary and knew about it, for example. The main beneficiary of compensation secrecy is probably the company. Anyway, if you're in the US and you're looking at how to retaliate against someone who screwed up and released your commission numbers, you can look up information on employee privacy at your state's website, but I expect that the most you can aim for is if this violated a company policy on keeping commission numbers secret, if the company happens to have such a policy. Tempshill (talk) 22:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Finding short-term work experience

I'd like to arrange short-term unpaid work in order to fill small gaps in my skills. The things I was thinking of are operating a proper switchboard, and working with SAP (business information system). I've been a receptionist, library assistant, and secretary of a student society, so I would be able to do other office based tasks. Are there any websites where I could find employers willing to do this, or if not can anyone recommend the types of business that might respond to a speculative offer? They would have to be within cycling distance of Liverpool, England, because I can't afford to spend money on commuting.

Also, is there anything similar for translation work, where I could offer to translate things free in exchange for a reference? 86.166.68.203 (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you concerned working for non-profits? In both cases you're more likely I'd imagine to find non-profits willing to let you do that sort of thing than private companies. You might try checking Action Without Borders for something like what you are thinking of, or at least a list of companies/groups in your area that might need such services. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

There's only one project in Liverpool on idealist.org, and it's for full-time students which I'm not. But thanks, that site is exactly the sort of resource I'm looking for. Signing up there now & will try to post an offer of help :-) 86.166.68.203 (talk) 23:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You can often do this type of work for free by volunteering at a charity for example. However, there are many secretarial employment agencies which will place you with companies on a short term contract basis and you'll get paid for your efforts. Astronaut (talk) 23:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The impression I'd got about temp agencies is that they only place people who did exactly the same job before and are 100% competent. Companies wouldn't pay through the nose for a temp and expect to have to train them. I will ring up some agencies and ask, but they aren't really in the volunteering business. Thanks anyway, 86.166.68.203 (talk) 23:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Does Liverpool have a site for free ads like Craigslist, or a free ads paper? You might try that. proz.com is a forum for translators, but that might be too advanced for your requirements. You might also find this useful [34]. So might this [35] do check whether it is phony though. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 04:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Translator's Cafe is excellent for finding freelance work as a translator. All of your work would be done over the email so you can work from home. Most of the work there is paid, but you will also find unpaid work if you really want it. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Ideas for environment club activities

I need ideas for a school environment club's activities. I have been searching the internet for a while but I haven't found anything interesting and applicable. The school is located in the city, nowhere near forests etc, so I have to throw out suggestions about protecting wildlife or planning trees etc. Students in the school also do not seem to be very interested in environment issues so we need an interesting way to introduce an event for everyone to "want" to join. The purpose should be about raising awareness and actions about protecting a city environment or reducing wastes. Also the projects should cost reasonably (not too much!); we are sponsored by the school but funds for clubs are of course limited. Could you please offer some interesting ideas? Thanks very much Wikipedia! 117.0.41.153 (talk) 16:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm not sure how hard this would be, but perhaps you could make some do it yourself wind turbines? There are lots of instructions on the internet of varying diffulty/cost, running the gamut from ones like this and ones like this. It seems quite possible to make them on a small budget, but I don't know if they'd be particularly useful once you'd made it. TastyCakes (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

And here is a wind powered composter. TastyCakes (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with making things like home-made wind turbines is that it gives the impression that you are working to help the environment - whilst actually damaging it still more! If you make a turbine and it doesn't make practical amounts of energy for you (trust me - it won't) - then the energy and materials you consumed in making it were wasted. Even commercially manufactured small-scale wind turbines have been shown to be an utter waste of materials...some of them require control electronics that actually consume more power than the windmill generates!

If you want your club to ACTUALLY help the environments then think you should concentrate on things around you that will actually make a positive difference. Perhaps do an energy "audit" of your school - where is energy used - is there any wastage? Do people leave lights on when they needn't? Is the school switching to energy efficient lighting like CFL's when old lightbulbs burn out? Are heating and air-conditioners properly adjusted? Could ceiling fans cut down on wasted energy? Is your school adequately insulated? What temperatures are present in roof-spaces - would attic fans improve energy consumption? Could you plan more efficient ways for students to get to school - perhaps you could organize a car-pooling system? Encourage bicycling to school? How is waste from your school disposed of? Does waste paper get properly recycled? Does left-over food from school lunches get composted or thrown into the trash? Are there local pig farms or other places where these scraps would actually be worth something? Are pencils more "green" than ballpoints or felt-tipped pens? Are chalkboards better or worse than modern dry-erase white-boards? Would it be better for the school to distribute laptops and electronic books than paper books? How much energy are kids wasting with cellphones when there might be a better way to communicate in school?

Look at any and every place where things (people, food, electricity, paper, books, furniture, waste heat, waste materials) goes into or out of the school and ask whether that could be done better. I guarantee you'll find several - perhaps lots - of things that would either cost nothing to implement - or which would actually save more money than they'd cost. If you can get those things to change then you'll have made a positive difference - and that's a wonderful thing. Take your group of enthusiasts - form them into groups of two or three and have each group take a piece of the problem to produce ideas from. After a couple of weeks, collect together these ideas and figure out which ones you're going to try to fix. Assign fellow students to doing publicity, for liason with school officials, etc. SteveBaker (talk) 20:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Just because you are in a city doesn't mean there is no wildlife to protect or places to plant trees. You don't say where you are, so I don't know what kind of wildlife you could be take an interest in, but you would be surprised how much wildlife you can find in the middle of a city. As for planting trees - there isn't much point planting them in a forest, it's already full of them, planting them in the city can be far more beneficial. Depending on where you are, they can prevent erosion, make more efficient use of rainfall, keep the area cooler, etc., etc.. --Tango (talk) 20:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You could organize a bicycle race or a 5k running race to get funds, and then use those funds to do some of the things mentioned above. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure the age of the student's involved, but I went to a mixed recycling sorting plant last year which I and the other visitors found fascinating. It was through my university environmental society, although I was the only undergrad, the rest being staff or post grads everyone found it very interesting and the site seemed to have the facilities to explain to younger audience (also, some of the staff were shockingling ignorant of recycling). So, I would recomend a recycling plant, especially if the area has mixed recyling (as in, cardboard, glass, steel, aluminium, paper etc etc) is all collected together, because they just JCB it all in and then you walk around and see how all the fragments are separated and see how polythene bags get everywhere. Which has some pretty cool and big machines, and you get to wear a hard hat. There is some great technology in place - imagine infrared lasers measuring density of material passing below and directing jets of air to make some refuse jump a gap while letting others drop down a hole. I can't tell where the OP is from, but this was in central london, and they gave the impression there were lots about, in the UK there are apparently only a few places that can recycle tetra packs, but I bet they have cool stuff to see there aswell.

Another idea which would be cool would be an industrial composter where they can take literally anything of organic matter and make it into compost, I'd like to see that... Also, just because you aren't near a forest doesn't mean you are not near a wetlands reserve... MedicRoo (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and the purpose of the trip to the recycling plant was to try and encourage the staff to sort out how they would implement recycling on the campus, for instance, if its not mixed recycling you need to know what you can put in what recycling bin, and note that not all plastics are the same, and contaminants are bad.

• Also, could always ask the school to set aside some quite place of their grounds to make a wildlife garden, there is health and safety issues if you have a pond, but it would fun and get people involved. Also, if you put up bird boxes, and you can get neat little cameras relatively cheap, install them in the box and then you could have the footage shown to people, the success of BBC's spring watch will mean you will get more support that will allow you to do some better more environmental things. I'm going to burst with ideas a lot now...MedicRoo (talk) 23:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The thing with environmental efforts is that lots of things that look good at a glance turn out to be ineffective or counter productive if you look at the big picture. Wind turbines were already cited above. Recycling is another one of those red herrings. Apart from the fact that some collection authorities ask people to wash plastic containers before recycling, they also use municipal mains water for both plastic and paper recycling. Producing tap water consumes quite a bit of energy. So the question whether you come out ahead environmentally isn't that easy to answer. In this light trash prevention is the better option. What you might try is to do a trash monster. You can either use school waste or ask club members and/or fellow students to bring in their washed plastic containers and waste paper. You then use that to construct a dinosaur or similar shape. (Get an instructor to give you a hand with the design.) Making paper-mâché will let you create a shape and keep your teetering pile of waste from collapsing and creating a hazard or blowing away. You can then gather ideas on how to reduce waste and apply those. Create a "post waste reduction" monster to display next to the original one. If your club's efforts were effective that one should be significantly smaller. Select one item from the trash pile each week and see if there is a good reason for using it (there sometimes is) and what would be the drawbacks and benefits for replacing it with something else or doing without. That way your club members will not fall prey to the frustrations of finding out that your "environmentally friendly" fad got shot down by environmentalists as being all but friendly (OR been there, tried that). Before encouraging students to ride their bikes to school you should make sure that can be done safely. Make a map of the area showing bike paths and sidewalks that could be used. Then see which students have schedules that would allow them to ride together. Contact the city and find out what offices would be in charge. Then try to get some teachers or school administrators to back your plan and contact the city officials together. You could push for more bike paths and permission to use the sidewalks during certain hours. Get the police to do a bike safety presentation/inspection at your school. In the city it might be easier and more efficient to encourage carpooling or expand the bus route with students on the expanded route paying a small fee for use of the bus. (Your club could do the math to make sure that both the gas savings for parents and the higher costs for the bus add up to savings) Have a look at class schedules. If they need tweaking so that students can share rides and use the bus you could talk to the administration. (OR one of our schools created "bridge classes" where students were supervised by teachers and did their homework or some extracurricular activities. An enthusiastic home economics teacher offered cooking classes and was amazed by the flood of boys applying ;-) Create a Questionnaire for parents what they'd like to be assured of when car-pooling. Then do "Carpool etiquette" fliers or print "car pooing agreements" for parents to sign. (That way you keep things from falling apart because of things like the vegetarian mom doesn't want her kids to ride with the mom who fetches burgers after school.) See if the school council, city authorities or an insurance company can help with insurance issues. (One of the big obstacles to carpooling with kids.) You can see there's a lot to do to get just that going. Your club can create a page on your schools website and display the environmental

Pick something common that is sold or used at your school, such as individual plastic bottles of water, soda, etc. Research how many are used, and the amount of waste generated. Look at how long it takes for the raw materials to decompose. Now that you have a reference point (tons of waste per year x number of years to decompose), figure out how to reduce the total. For example, selling reusable canteens with the school logo on them would not only raise some money but also promote the use of reusable beverage containers. Oh, and thanks for giving a damn! DOR (HK) (talk) 08:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Try growing some vegetables, eg tomatoes, peas. This could lead to thinking about pesticides, food-miles, etc. You do not even need a garden: large tubs or grow-bags will do. 78.147.146.107 (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Body proportions

While a number of body proportion calculators exist on the internet, I've not found one that gives me all the information I want. A male has the following dimensions (all in inches, except weight, which is in pounds):

Height: 69 Collar: 14.5 Chest: 37 Bicep: 11.5 Forearm: 10 Wrist: 6.25 Chest: 37 Waist: 30 Hips: 34 Inside leg: 31/2 Thigh: 21 Calf: 14 Weight: 144

Firstly, the calculator at [36] suggests that both the calf is about 3 inches larger than expected and the thigh is 2.25 inches larger than expected. While I know that these calculations are only rough guides for classical artwork, and the person in question is not a piece of classical artwork, is this really larger than normal? Secondly, are the person's legs longer than average and chest smaller than average? (again, I realise that there is a great variety, but...) I ask as the person in question often has difficulty in finding clothes that fit without looking slightly odd. Also, is a foot size of UK 6.5 - 7 (about 25 to 25.5 cm I am told) particularly small? --80.229.152.246 (talk) 17:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not too familar with the bicep, thigh, calf, forearm, & wrist measurments, but I think this individual sounds a little thinner than the UK average. Judging on the availability of clothing in the UK, my own OR suggests the "average man" is 5'9" tall with a 15"-16" collar, 40"-42" chest, 30"-32" waist, 30"-32" inside leg, and takes a size 9 shoe. Better developed calves and thighs could be explained by sports such as cycling, skiing, etc. Astronaut (talk) 00:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What you are looking for is Clothing sizes rather than whether your measures are average. Our pages mostly cover the US from what I've seen, but things apply similarly elsewhere. Much to manufacturers' chagrin human bodies don't come in molds. Apart from differences between males and females there is a wide variety of measurements. Other than tailored clothes, mass produced clothing is made to adequately fit a certain range of shapes and measurements. To allow for some wider variations industry has created Petite sizes (aka. short sizes) and Plus-size clothing. Within the standard industry measurements for the country in question each manufacturer adjusts their patters to their own specifications. They also use the upper, lower or median standard measurements for their designs. So you might fit better into clothes designed for a different country or made by a different manufacturer. Certain styles (e.g. pleats, stretch fabric, A-line, raglan sleeves etc. ) fit some people better than others, so maybe you've just been shopping in the wrong type. If you can't find an adequate fit, there's lots of places that offer alterations and some retailers even offer it in-store. (OR a male friend with a bodacious behind found to his surprise that some women jeans fit him better than male cuts. He is very grateful for online shopping. Even sewing patters for people sewing their own clothes differ between countries and companies. Some Chinese manufacturers are having trouble with the size of American and European biceps and their clothing frequently ends up in close-out sales and Dollar stores. In shoe sizes there is even less standard specification. There are wide and slim sizes available at specialty footwear stores, but you are just as likely to find a fitting pair from some standard source after shopping around a bit.71.236.26.74 (talk) 00:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the info. In particular, the OR that the 'average man' has a chest of 40"-42" seems to match with my own experience, which is a bit of a pain for the person in question. --80.229.152.246 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Old Chinese custom?

When I was growing up my mom had a rule that nobody in the household could wash their hair when it was someone's birthday. The same rule applied when it was Chinese New Year. I have spent years trying to find out why. Is this an old Chinese custom or superstition? What was it's origin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.215.69 (talk) 18:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The tradition of not washing hair on Chinese New Year is attributed to a desire not to wash away the good luck that the New Year brings. I'm guessing that not washing hair on a birthday has similar origins. Mikenorton (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Chinese New Year's is everyone's birthday: www.danwei.org/china_information/chinese_new_year_and_chinese_s.php. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

shopping carts

Why do most of the shopping carts in Australia (I forget what the local name for them is) have 4 wheel steering while the American version only allows the front wheels to pivot? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

We usually call them "shopping trolleys". Maybe because Australia's such a rugged, manly country, where 4-wheel drive vehicles are par for the course in many places.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Because the local retailer of shopping carts/trolleys only sell the 2/4 wheel steering versions in that part of the world. There doesn't necessarily have to be a reason, it could be "just so". Dismas|^(talk) 20:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Shopping carts/trolleys with 4 wheel steering can create an occupational hazard if you use a motorized shopping cart retriever (aka. cart pusher or cart puller). I guess the Australian version is designed for manual retrieval or their OSHA hasn't gotten to it yet. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, don't rule out simple economics: the ones with two fixed wheels are probably cheaper, and saving a buck is a very high priority in the States! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Oz OHS laws are very wide ranging and come with hefty penalties for non-compliers. The law does not need to spell out every possible individual risk that businesses need to be cognisant of. Businesses have a responsibility to interpret the intent of the laws and apply them in every way that's appropriate to their circumstances. But having said that, the difficulty of managing shopping trolleys with 4 independent wheels is legendary, so it's surprising that they haven't been replaced with 2-wheel versions. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In NZ quite a few supermarkets have special trolleys for the disabled nowadays. While these are I believe more designed for wheel chairs I presume they work with mobility scooters too. I'm surpised they're not present in Australian supermarkets. Most supermarkets in NZ do use manual retrieval, although vehicles are used in some places Nil Einne (talk) 03:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Count yourself lucky. Many trolleys in my experience have three wheels that will spin where they like and one that is fixed firmly so as to create an automatin 360 degree turn.86.194.122.65 (talk) 14:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)DT

The store where I buy groceries seems to specialize in carts with one wheel in a shape other than circular, so it thumps on each revolution. Edison (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Revolution? Count yourself fortunate. I used to shop at a supermarket where half the wheels barely turned at all, so you had to drag the thing around. (And it wasn't a budget chain either.) Gwinva (talk)

DM band?

What would someone mean when they refer to DM, probably a band. I suspect they were playing in Berlin this weekend or week, and 68000 people were there. Any of you sleuths got any leads? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

DM is an abbreviation for "death metal", a music genre which is fairly popular in some German venues. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That would be Depeche Mode. Algebraist 20:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's a report [37] (P.s. why is this not on the Entertainment desk?) - 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

That picture is of Dave Gahan, lead singer of Depeche Mode... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the question has already been answered. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 00:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The book 'Risk' by Dan Gardner and some unanswered questions

I'm reading the above book and it's pretty enjoyable but there's a series of questions that were posed to university students by a Ms Peters and I would be grateful if someone could confirm the answers. I've got what I think they are in my head but just want to check as, well, the whole point of the questions is about how the answer you 'think' is right is not (i.e. 'gut' is wrong). Anyhoo on with the questions:

• If person A's chance of getting a disease is 1 in 100 in 10 years, and person B's is double that of person A's, what is B's risk?
• Imagine that we roll a fair 6-sided die 1000 times how many times do you think the die will come up even (2,4,6)?
• In the Acme publishing sweepstakes, the chance of winning a car is 1 in 1000. What percent of tickets in the sweepstake win a car?

I'll not make myself look a fool until someone answers, then if i'm wrong i'll properly understand why and so won't feel as much of a numpty. ny156uk (talk) 21:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Fine I'll bite:

• 2 in 100? Though my gut says that is wrong.
• Well if the die is fair then there is a 1/6 chance of each number coming up, we are looking for any of 3 numbers so the odds of finding one is (1/6 * 3=) 3/6=1/2, 1000*0.5=500. So the answer is 500 right?
• I might be missing something about sweepstakes, but 1 in 1000 translates into a 0.1% chance.

What are the answers then? Prokhorovka (talk) 22:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Right, I wanted to answer the same as Prokhorovka because I'm so certain they are correct, but I once had a really stressful time where it was explained to me with hideous formula that the chances of flipping a coin 3 times and them being all heads would be 0.5. I have a feeling we're walking into that formula now... MedicRoo (talk) 23:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Odds and statistics like this get very confusing because you need to be VERY specific about what you are asking for. With the die rolls, for example, there are three kinds of odds:

1. The odds of any one number coming up on any one roll
2. The odds of a specific set of numbers coming up out of a larger set of rolls
3. The odds of an exact sequence of numbers coming up in a set of rolls

You have to know what you are asking for before you can answer it. For example, the odds of rolling any one number are 1/6 for each number. However, that is a different question than asking "What are the odds that, on say 600 rolls of the dice, I get exactly 100 "1s" and 100 "2s" and 100 "3s" etc. etc." It is this second question that requires the messy formula that MedicRoo refers too. And, of course, there is a third question, which may be worded something like "In a set of 600 rolls, what are the odds of never rolling the same number twice". Again, requires a completely different perspective on the odds, since now we are asking for the odds of a specific sequence, and not just on raw number of results. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In particular, #2 is the tricky one. 500 is the most likely number of even die rolls, but I would in no way claim that I "expect" 500 even rolls -- "not 500" is far more likely. As for the others, I agree with you on #1 (2 in 100 in 10 years is a significantly different answer than 1 in 100 in 5 years). For #3 not enough information is provided -- if the sweepstakes' tickets are evenly and fully distributed, then the answer is 0.1%. Many such giveaways don't meet those criteria, however. — Lomn 01:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Let E denote "Even" on a particular roll, and N denote "Not Even" on a particular roll. The probability of getting an "E" on a particular roll is 0.5, as is the probabiliyt of getting an N. Think of a sequence 1000 letters long (something like "NEEENENENNNE....") as the result of the 1000 rolls. Let X be the number of "E"s in a randomly generated sequence like that. Each particular arrangement of Evens (E) and Not Evens (N) has a probability of 0.5^1000. For any particular value of X, there are 1000P1000 / (x! (1000-x)!) possible arrangements of Ns and Es. Thus, the probability distribution goes something like this: for any P(X=x) = 1000P1000 / x!(1000-x)! * 0.5^1000, which simplifies to P(X=x) = 1000! / x!(1000-x)! * 0.5^1000

To work out the expected value E(X), all you have to do is sum xP(X) over 0 to 1000, which probably simplifies to something quite simple... and eventually gets you to 500.

(BTW, this question probably belongs on the mathematics desk). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I concur with your math, but the question isn't "what's the expected number of evens", it's "how many do you think". I don't think there will be exactly 500 evens on 1000 rolls -- the most likely single outcome is still incredibly unlikely. — Lomn 11:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Just some more background. MedicRoo seems to be looking for a specific formula, and besides what PalaceGuard008 has provided, some other interesting reads on unexpected odds include the Monty Hall Problem and Penney's game and Efron's dice; though these involved odds of non-transitive situations (i.e. the order of events matters), but they are examples where the odds of a situation are counterintuitive. For more on the mathematics behind the odds of long strings of events, see Bernoulli scheme and Bernoulli process and Lévy process, which are all examples of Stochastic processes and understanding each requires more mathematics background than I have... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

If I knew what they were called, I'm sure I could read about them...

It's a brand new dance!

So, what's the proper name for the signals that the dude on the tarmac with the orange sticks is giving to the pilot who's taxiing up to the gate? Do we have any pictures? Thanx, DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Aircraft marshalling. Algebraist 23:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

So rumours that they use table-tennis bats are not true? Astronaut (talk) 00:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Two minutes for an answer -- that has to be some kind of a record. I'd have never chanced upon "marshall" as the operative word here. Thanks! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 00:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it the word in North America? The article mentions the signs used in North America, but the only sources cited are British ones. --Anonymous, 05:25 UTC, June 12, 2009.

The article needs to be clearer on how universal the signs are. My assumption has been that the signs are universal for the same reason English is the universal language of pilots talking to ATC. Tempshill (talk) 15:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you have to wear a cool hat like that to direct helicopters? 86.4.190.83 (talk) 06:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe the word you're looking for is "get", not "have". -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Lollipop man? DOR (HK) (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

June 12

Actor who was born in 1908 and died in 1955

What was the cause of death for the actor known as Robert Kent or also known as Douglas Blackley Jr.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icemerang (talk • contribs) 07:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Found via Ancestry.com Social security death index entry for Douglas Wellwood Blackley, born 3 Dec 1908, Connecticut (other sources add Hartford), died 4 May 1955, Los Angeles, Ca. These data agree with other sources such as IMDB. I did not find an obituary at Ancestry.com or Google news archive, but you should be able to get a copy of the death certificate for $12 from the California vital records department at [38]. If they can't find it, they still keep the $12. Death certificates from other states I have seen do include a cause of death, but I don't know what California includes. Edison (talk) 15:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Saving other researchers time: Our article Robert Kent (actor) is a stub. His bio at IMDB notes he died May 4, 1955 in Los Angeles but doesn't say why. (Interesting I found it that we have one "Robert Kent (actor)" article, but the IMDB search results for Robert Kent yields three actors.) Tempshill (talk) 15:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No obits in the main LA papers of the period (via ProQuest). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, does anyone here have a copy of his death certificate, perhaps?Icemerang (talk) 01:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Climate change / renewable energy orgs

Of all the ones out there, which ones have probably been the most effective at advocating for green energy and reducing carbon emissions?

Mooselogic (talk) 07:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Pont del Anglesos Mallorca

Who designed the Pont del Anglesos in Mallorca. It is at the entrance to the Parc Natural de S'Albufera and spans over the Canal Gran on the main road along the coast at Port d'Alcudia Cairlinn (talk) 09:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In a quick search neither the Spanish nor the Catalan wikipedias turned up anything. (Mallorquí is considered part of the Catalan language family.) With the Catalan version there might be something under a different name. It is not the most expansive wikipedia though. Will try again when I have more time. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 00:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It's "Pont dels Anglesos" in Català71.236.26.74 (talk) 04:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It was named in honor of John Frederick Bateman and his team for drying up a swamp. It doesn't look as though he had anything to do with designing the bridge though. This site has a lot of info on the bridge, but no designer from what I could see [39]. There's a bridge with the same name in Barcelona (Built in 1955) That's about what I can find for now. You might find someone here [40] [41] or here [42] who can help you further. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 06:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Why people select a product - psychology of preference

We have recently been selecting a major software product, and to do this we extracted requirements added general requirements like "ease of use" and produced a scoring matrix. We got everyone to fill in scores in areas they understood, asked everyone which product was best and to score each product area by area. The scores and preferences from the technical areas were as expected: the preferred choices were marked higher. This was not the case with some of the business users. About half of these rated the product they liked best lower than one of the others. Our immediate thought was that we had omitted some factors from the scoring matrix, so we asked the business users if there were any factors that should be included. A few additional items came in, such as provider's culture, understanding of business needs, and so on. We added these scores, and we still had a discrepancy - and a couple of business users scores were even further out of line with the preference. We asked them why, and they said "well I know product X does everything better but I just think I would be happier with Y", or "I just have a gut feeling we'd do better with it". Exasperated we added another very woolly factor "preference" with quite a high rating, and eventually had scores which made sense - in that people's scores reflected their preference.

Now it is tempting to see this as the illogic of the business users, but after some honest thought about how we (the technical users) scored I am not sure. I think it could be that we saw a greater importance in "justifying" our preferences with scores that reflected and a greater ability to do so. looking at people's scores it is quite clear that they marked their favoured products highly in most areas and lower in others. Both business and technical users were able to change opinions when given good reasons, one product would not meet expected future requirements and when that was pointed out everyone was happy that it could not continue.

I am interested in the psychology of selection, it seems to me that most people do not evaluate things logically point by point. Is this a known phenomena? Is the marking to justify preference also a known phenomena? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't quite get the jist of what you are asking, but in this area you'll be interested in reading up more about the following... Confirmation bias (only believing that which proves what you believe to be true and discounting that which disproves your thoughts), Collective behaviour (if others are being influenced by what others have said). Infact what am I do, just read throguh List of cognitive biases you could spend all day in that little section, it's a beauty. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There has been some interesting research around free will and choices that suggests we actually make most choices very quickly, before we are even aware that we have made them, and then justify them to ourselves. Choice blindness is an interesting example of this. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 16:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

tennis

What is a "winner" in a tennis game?utkarsh (talk) 11:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a shot that cannot be returned. Some commentators may also use "clean winner" for a shot that cannot even be reached. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

so it depends on the commentator (or umpire) to decide wether a shot is a winner or not?Shraktu (talk) 11:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See Glossary of tennis#W. Deor (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No, it's practically determined: in other words, if the opposing player hasn't returned the ball so it falls within the bounds of the court on the other side of the net, then it's a winner. No decision required - unless the ball is called wrongly by a line judge, in which case the umpire will need to either consult Hawkeye or see the mark on a clay court for him/herself. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

questions

• Is it illegal to kill a horse? What punishment can you expect?
• Is it possible to have your arms longer than your legs?
• Does anyone have any more information about Sirkka Sari? She is not much documented apart from beif mention of her death?

Sorry for cumping these all together Robbie Record (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

1. It depends on your jurisdiction and on the manner and context of the horse's death. If you starve a horse, or kill it "just because", in many places you may be charged with Animal cruelty and it will, of course, depend entirely on where you live as to what punishment you can expect. However, it is perfectly legal to kill a horse to "Put it out of its misery" in most places, see Animal euthanasia.
2. Like in humans, or in general? Cuz this guy certainly qualifies. In humans, you could have your legs amputated, which would of course make them shorter than your arms. And there may be some birth defects which also cause that.
3. We do not, as yet, have an article on Sirkka Sari, but she does appear in the article List of unusual deaths, and there are articles on her at other language Wikipedias; if you read Finnish, perhaps you could translate this: [43] for us...

Does that help? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

If you've already had breakfast or lunch or whatever there's Horse slaughter Note to self, don't do ref desk soon after breakfast to allow for squeamish stomach. Among the various birth defects caused by Thalidomide extremely shortened limbs occurred. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 13:30, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Overseas Retail Sales Shipping Consolidator

Living outside the U.S.A. I've experienced some problems in ordering from U.S.A. based companies on the internet (who won't ship abroad) & have had issues with multiple customs charges for multiple different items ordered from different companies. I want to ask if there exists such a thing as a service in the U.S.A. which will receive any items you order from U.S.A. companies (which you pay for only giving their U.S.A. address) consolidate them into one shipment and send them out to you on a specific date or when all your items have been included? If this doesn't exist could someone please invent it as it'd be really useful. AllanHainey (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I once ordered two books from the USA, but did it as two separate orders so as to avoid paying import duty. However, if you have a friend or relative in the USA couldn't they do it for you? - and they might be more willing to lie about the value of the package so you can avoid customs charges and import duty/tax. Astronaut (talk) 16:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

US companies sometimes don't even ship to within the US e.g. to Alaska or Hawaii. Some boast "international shipping" and are thinking no farther than Canada and/or Mexico. The thing becomes that you are probably cheaper off paying extra customs than hiring a shipping agent, negotiating something with an office service or Mailboxes etc. outlet. (OR All those work but cost a bundle.) Asking a friend or relative to lend a hand might work better. The whole thing looks easy until the third party considers their exposure to liability (lost packages, broken items, repo for unpaid bills etc. etc.) Professional companies don't want to be left holding the bag and their insurance agents are happy to charge them a pretty penny, which they in turn slap onto your bill. (OR my last Mailboxes etc. bill was $170 for sending a small parcel, just to give you an idea.) Contacting one of those places that offer "we sell your stuff on e-bay for you" might work, haven't tried that. AFAIK all this has to be negotiated on an individual basis. I don't know of any company that offers such a service as part of their standard package. Also shop around, it's time consuming, but I've managed to locate lots of items I used to get shipped at local sources after some digging. If you consider the extra charges then any US price advantage usually fizzles away fast. Re. customs you might want to have a look at the local regulations on declaring goods as part of your move. (No legal advice, just a friendly pointer. May not even apply to your particular situation.)71.236.26.74 (talk) 16:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Even if they say on their website/eBay/ad they won't ship abroad, it might be worth contacting them. If you offer them a certain amount of money for their inconvenience. This is is particularly the case with a smaller dealer for whom every sale matters. Apologies if you've already tried this. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking of asking the same thing. There are companies specializing in this, one example is JetCarrier that specializes in shipping to Scandinavia from the US. I know there are more general companies available but I don't remember the names, if anyone knows I would be grateful. Jørgen (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Great find that one, wish they had been around when I was in Sweden. --71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I googled us mailbox forwarding overseas, seems to give some options, have no idea how good they are. Jørgen (talk) 00:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Price of a Laptop in S.Korea

I'm wondering how much a laptop would cost in Korea. I'm looking for a Korean one with the Korean version of Windows on it. It doesn't need to be top-of-the-range, but I'd like one that plays games fairly well enough. However, to be honest, I'll be using it mostly for practising Korean (I could use my British laptop or my Japanese ones, but I'd prefer a Korean operating system as it'll force me to try and read), plus, of course, I would be able to use it for work, as I am going to Korea to work (I leave next week! Hooray!). Anyone have any ideas? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Sovereign credit ratings

Hello, I was wondering if anyone knew where to find a list of countries by their sovereign credit ratings? S&P or Moody's will do. I'm hoping to make a map like this one for the credit rating article, but my Google searches so far have not come up with a good list. TastyCakes (talk) 20:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Something like this useful? [44] You might also be able to dig something up at the world bank [45] or the UN [46]. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

This looks perfect, or it would be if it were one of the more well known credit rating agencies... Thanks a lot though, I'll have a look through the UN and World Bank sites. TastyCakes (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The people at Fitch would be rather miffed I guess. They are the lesser known of the "big three" rating agencies, but they're in there. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Waistband

My question yesterday got me thinking about another aspect of clothing and body size that has me puzzled, namely: where do people wear the waistband on their trousers? For me, the waistband sits directly around my navel and even if I position it lower, it works it way back up to there even unless I actively adjust it or wear my belt much looser. Within my own experience, this seems to be a bit higher than the average (so much so that a few people have commented on it), although my experience is rather limited to those of ages between 13 and 20. Is there any other evidence that backs up this conclusion that it is higher than most people? If it is not designed to be worn in this position, why is it called a waistband? Is it left over from earlier times when trousers were longer and worn with braces? --80.229.152.246 (talk) 20:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

When I wear jeans, I personally wear the waistband pretty low, but it is never noticed because I will wear a t-shirt or shirt outside my kecks and covering the waistband. At work, I generally have my waistband either on or just below my hip-bones. Any higher than that and it just looks far too high (and causes discomfort in my crotch). I would assume it's called a waistband, because your hips are part of your waist. If you didn't have hips, your waist would go all the way down to your thighs, after all. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally, mine sits above my hip bones and just covers my belly-button. This has been commented on dozens of times. Prokhorovka (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the type and style of trousers/pants you buy. Some are Low-rise jeans, some are Hip-huggers and there are other styles too. The waistband height will vary depending on the style, though as noted some wearers will wear them at a specified height themselves. ny156uk (talk) 22:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I suspect it also has something to do with body shape. People might prefer a tighter fit around the narrowest part of their body. ie. a thin person with a clearly defined waist might prefer the waistband to be tight around their navel area; but a fat person might find the waistband naturally sits lower. Astronaut (talk) 08:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I realize that this is original research but I'm pretty thin and wear my pants around my hips. If I pulled them up to my waist, I'd look like Ed Grimley. Dismas|^(talk) 12:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I've seen older men (50s and 60s +) in Japan wearing their suit trousers so high up, the waistband is somewhere between the bottom of the ribcage and the nipples. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

My User Box

This is my first Userbox and I need to know what section to put it under. (Religion Maybe?) Programmer13^Talk_{What I do} 21:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

This user believes that 42 is the meaning of life

It's your userpage, put it wherever you want... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

If you mean what category in WP:UBX, you'd want to put it here. ~EdGl ★ 03:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Hypoallergenic Defense Dog

What breed of hypoallergenic dogs are best for home defense? Are there hypoallergenic German shepherds? Acceptable (talk) 23:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See Hypoallergenic dog breed, which has a list. Pick something with a mean-sounding name, or possibly a taste for human testicles... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

But what if Tonya Harding comes a-calling? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

What does Harding have to do with dogs or testicles? Did you mean Lorena Bobbitt? Dismas|^(talk) 12:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

June 13

American Bathrooms

Why do Americans have such a problem with toilets, WCs, Loos, etc.? They have no problem with s**t, a**e, etc. It seems most odd to be asked for directions to the "bathroom' in such places as railway stations.86.216.123.3 (talk) 10:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)DT

I don't think Americans have a problem with naming that little room where we pass excrement. Just look at the terms you have used yourself. WC? water closet, Loo? what's that about then. These are merely different terms for the same room that an American would call a bathroom. Context also has a great deal to do with which term would be used. An American asking for the bathroom is clearly being polite when addressing a stranger. If he (possibly she) were enquiring of a friend or colleague then they may well use alternative terms like "the can" or "the john". In the same way an Englishman would not usually ask a stranger the whereabouts of the sh**house or the bog. Richard Avery (talk) 12:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

But the essence of a "bathroom" is that it should contain a bath!86.216.123.3 (talk) 12:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)DT

Well, possibly. But language moves on. Nowadays we don't only dress in the toilet and more than washing goes on in the lavatory. My bathroom does not contain a bathroom, and in Spain (yes I know, we're widening the argument now) the vast majority of bathrooms (cuartos de baños) don't contain baths. Time to move over to the language desk? Richard Avery (talk) 13:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Just be glad nobody has ever approached you int he subway to "see a man about a horse," or you would really be confused. :-) And, where I live in America, bathrooms without bathtubs are technically "half baths." So, they are looking for half baths, but the size of the "half bath" in a subway is bound to be much bigger than the bathroom *with* bath of 90% of Americans. So, given the size difference, you should understand why they can't call what's in a subway just a half bath.:-) Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Communication has still occurred since you knew what they were looking for. Bathroom is more polite than many other options such as shithouse (to choose an extreme example). We could ask where the "restroom" is too but then not really anyone besides bums (using the subway example again) goes into a restroom to actually rest. We Americans also use the term toilet but less often possibly due to its perceived vulgarity (bathroom is a "nicer" word). But then "toilet" would be imprecise as well if we just needed to wash our hands or use a urinal. So really, it's just a quirk of language. Give it another 10-15 years and we'll have people here asking why we say that phones "ring" since they rarely ever contain actual bells anymore. And there are probably kids in school right now who have never actually heard an old style telephone ring and have never even seen a rotary dial. Now they just sort of warble and beep at you. Er, the phones warble and beep, not the kids. Dismas|^(talk) 17:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Cecil Adams has done a couple of columns bemoaning the fact that there is no surviving English word for "Bathroom" which is not a euphemism. [47] APL (talk) 21:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

People from Laos

What are people from Laos called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PVignolo (talk • contribs) 10:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Laotians or Laos. Algebraist 11:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See the infobox on the right hand side of the Laos article where it says "Demonym". Dismas|^(talk) 12:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Note that instead of/in addition to the demonym for the country, they may identify more strongly with their ethnic identity, especially if they are not an ethnic Lao. A person originally from Laos might prefer to be called Hmong, Yao, Dao, or Shan, especially if they disagree with the current socialist Laotian government. (e.g the Hmong who moved to the US after unsuccessfully fighting in the Laotian Civil War.) -- 128.104.112.114 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC).

roketa engine repair

I have a four wheeler for my grandson and need to set the timing on it if anyone can help! I have been trying all ave. to no avail. It is a 110cc roketa engine. Can anyone please help me with this. Thank You.12:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.75.220 (talk)

Seems as though nobody had answered you, so I will try a suggestion: Why not turn to a mechanic or repair shop in your area? Judging by your IP, this shouldn't be a problem where you live. Hope this helps. --Ouro (blah blah) 20:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

New Article

A few days ago, I created my first article, Sunny Sohal. It was a decent-sized article, with 4 paragraphs. Now, when i see it, I find just one line, and a box saying "This article is a stub. Please help expand it." I don't know what to make of this. Can someone please help me? Rkr1991 (talk) 12:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Your text was removed by R'n'B, as it was copied from http://www.sunnysohal.com in violation of copyright. Algebraist 13:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes i did pick up information from that site, but that;s about the only site which gave any reliable information. That was all the information I could get, and i could do nothing except dress up the language a bit. How do i go about correcting it ? Rkr1991 (talk) 14:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

For starters you should find a better source than a random website which doesn't even say who wrote it, let alone where they got the information from. What makes you think it's reliable? (also, for future reference, this sort of question is better asked at WP:HD) Algebraist 14:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I assumed it is reliable, as it is the guy's own homepage. Forgive me if I was wrong Rkr1991 (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it? I can't see anything that says that it is, and there's a disclaimer at the bottom stating that it is not. Algebraist 15:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

You might try adding to it by using Template:Infobox Football biography. Dismas|^(talk) 17:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

{{Infobox cricketer biography}} would be more appropriate. Algebraist 17:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a matter of reliable vs non-reliable evidence - you can't just copy text from somewhere else on the internet into Wikipedia - that's a breach of copyright...it's illegal...a very bad thing indeed! R'n'B did exactly the right thing - the offending text was removed - a link to a (possibly) relevent piece of information placed in the 'External references' section...what remains is indeed a stub and the stub-warning message applies. I suggest you rewrite the text that was removed in your own words - using the www.sunnysohal.com link as a reference to back it up. That should survive the editing process. Better still, try to find other sources to back up and expand the article. SteveBaker (talk) 18:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Finding another source would be best since the site claims at the bottom that it "... may not be accurate, complete or up-to-date." Dismas|^(talk) 18:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Two more points. You can find out yourself about who changed an article (at least, their Wikipedia username or the IP address they use) and why (or at least, what reason they gave, if any) by following the article's "History" link. That would be how Algebraist got the answer to your question.

And questions like this about Wikipedia are supposed to go to the Wikipedia:Help desk, not the Reference desk.

--Anonymous, 21:07 UTC, June 13, 2009.

monei matters

Can anyone tells me about moneimatters and its working....59.180.142.225 (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be an unpopular blog without meaningful content; and something about your post tells me it's your blog that you're trying to popularize by posting about it here on the Reference Desk. Please don't; that's not what this resource is for. Tempshill (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

AC Adaptor for British Laptop to be used in S.Korea

What type of AC Adaptor should I need in order to use my British-bought laptop in South Korea? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Mains power systems shows the voltage and plug type (it seems to be the same kind you'd need for France), AC power plugs and sockets#Type C. A laptop will have a smart switching power supply, so you need only get a physical adapter (the kind they sell in supermarkets or B&Q). If you're going to be there a while, and your laptop power adapter has a removable cable, then it's probably easiest to get a mains<->C5 cable, in a Korean electrical store. 87.112.85.111 (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Scientific descriptions for common items

...fifteen tonnes of pressed wheat extractions treated with sucrose; ten thousand litres of cold bovine lactation; twenty-five tonnes of the baked wheat extraction containing grilled bovine flesh and trace ingredients, along with chopped and fried tubers and fried and corn-extract-coated rings of vegetables of the allium family; one tonne of crushed mustard seeds mixed with water and permitted additives; three tonnes of exploded corn kernels coated with lactic derivation; ten thousand litres of coloured water containing sucrose and trace elements; fifteen tonnes of prepared and fermented wheat extract in vegetable juice; one thousand tonnes of soured lactic acid flavoured with fruit extract.

As far as I can work out...that's Frosties with milk, burgers in a bun with chips (fries for Americans) and battered onion rings, mustard, popcorn, some kind of fruit juice or equivalent, and fruit-flavoured yoghurt. Can anyone work out; what's the wheat extract in vegetable juice, and what's the lactic derivation that coats the popcorn? Vimescarrot (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with all the above, but feel I should add that those are ridiculous scales of foodstuffs. Prokhorovka (talk) 22:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It's for an army of one hundred thousand ScreeWee. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

How sad is it that I recognised the quote straight away? That second-to-last one always puzzled me; the fermented wheat extract in vegetable juice keeps bringing me back to alcoholic drinks, which is unlikely. You don't say, but the coloured water is probably cola or similar sugary soft drink (not fruit juice). 80.41.126.158 (talk) 00:24, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Oooo, "prepared and fermented wheat extract" = Monosodium glutamate? I'd wondered about Marmite, but I don't think it can reasonably be described as containing vegetable juice. We could be looking at some artificially flavoured juice or sauce? If we were looking at ketchup or brown sauce I'd expect other ingredients to feature prominently, such as vinegar. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 00:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Lactic acid derivation is butter, yes? Fermented wheat extract in vegetable juice something like a Bloody Mary, right? --98.217.14.211 (talk) 22:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Butter sounds right. (I'm not a popcorn person.) It wouldn't be a Bloody Mary in the context of the book; it's a foodstuff typically consumed by a twelve-year-old. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Wheat Frosties (corn)? Wheatabix (contains malted baley), Shredded wheat [48] or Frosted Mini-Wheats (contain high fructose corn syrup and gelatin) [49] more likely. coloured water containing sucrose and trace elements could be Kool-Aid or Coke if they allow for carbonated water. prepared and fermented wheat extract might be Sourdough but that wouldn't match "in vegetable juice" which might be V8 (beverage), Ketchup or Gazpacho. Some Asian recipes also use fermented wheat flour. Salmorejo might fit the bill, but that's not common.71.236.26.74 (talk) 01:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Vegemite? 152.16.59.190 (talk) 03:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

June 14

More help with making our flag thingy please...

How do we make one of these?

The project here is that my sister has an adoptive Inuit child, Mom and I want to make a growth chart for him, styled on the flag of Nunavut shown here. This will be half a 4x8 sheet of plywood as the base, and the inukshuk itself and the star as separately cut pieces mounted - and the whole thing gets painted in the right colours. Mom has now accepted that saving 8 dollars by using spray paint is a seriously bad idea (except for the blue star, we've already tested using that can of paint, and it's small enough to saturate the whole piece). We've put on primer to satisfy the incredibly slurpy G1S sanded plywood, now we need to get the right paint mixes. The hardware store can't use RGB values for colour, but they can take a scan and mix the right colour of paint. Here are the current questions:

• What exact colour (or near-enough exact) do we want? Looking at this page, the actual colours used are all over the hue circle. I can't find an official Nunavut government spec for the colours, and I really have been looking. Advice or superior research skills on this would be appreciated.
• Assuming the correct colour-spec can be found, what is the best way to get this made into paint? My current thinking is to send some file or other to the pro print shop three blocks from here that has a colour-matched printer, get it printed on photo paper, then ask Rona to scan it. But should it be on photo paper or plain bond paper? Does it matter if I ask for the print using RGB or HSV or CMYK colour values?

This project is meant to be something that stays relevant for the next 20 years or so, that the lad can look at every single day to remind him of his growth in the world and the nature of his heritage as a descendant of a truly awesome people, so it's rather important to get it as right as possible. Any help/advice is appreciated! (And thanks for the earlier comments on using a jigsaw, it all turned out to be nothing that some 100-grit, followed by 240-grit, sandpaper wouldn't fix. :) Franamax (talk) 01:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Gold (color) might help. Two things to keep in mind: By the time the child can distinguish fine nuances in color the original you are painting now has likely faded or changed hue significantly. By the time the kid can understand the significance of the various colors you may be into him helping with painting the third incarnation. (If my own native heritage can serve as a guide that is well within standard philosophies of what might be called "keeping things for the ages".)71.236.26.74 (talk) 02:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)