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September 19

The longest (and surviving) uninterrupted ancestral line of UK/ English/British/Scottish/Irish/Welsh nobles in History.

Sorry folks for the somewhat challenging headline. I sometimes find that the most difficult part of enjoying Wikipedia is struggling to avoid the immediate brickbats of the Wiki know-it-alls lurking in the wings waiting to attack simpletons such as myself - a mere admirer of Wikipedia and a ready apologist for being a self-confessed seeker of the truth in a less confrontational way than asking at a local library. That said, all I want to know is: of all the current and existing Hereditary Peers of the UK Realm, be they, Dukes, Duchesses, Marquesses, Marchionesses, Earls, Countesses, Viscounts, Viscountesses, Barons and Baronesses, whether of English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh (forgetting German, French and other non-current UK family lineages) (I am not interested in Baronetcies); which is the longest unbroken line recognised by Law. I know that Father to Son would seem the most obvious, but I also accept thet some lines provide for inheritance through the female line. And if my question is not sufficiently exact so as to enable a specific and absolutely correct answer, then so be it - with my most abject apologies. 92.30.43.174 (talk) 01:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

A quick glance at the Peerage of England list and an equally quick scan of the Earl of Shrewsbury article seems to confirm that the Shrews have it. But that's just in England, I'll have a look at the Scottish peerage too, if it's not too confusing.Textorus (talk) 02:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Disregard, I misread your question. It appears that the oldest peerage in England or Scotland is the Earldom of Sutherland, established 1230. Textorus (talk) 03:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not father-son always, but the oldest continuously opperating title in the peerage is Baron de Ros. --Jayron32 03:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The United Kingdom England does not seem to have any immemorial nobility. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

According to Burke's, the Earldom of Mar is the oldest in the United Kingdom here. A quote from that article reads: "The learned and accurate Lord Hailes remarks that ‘this is one of the earldoms whose history is lost in antiquity. It existed before our records and before the era of genuine history.’ " --TammyMoet (talk) 20:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Alexander Stewart, Earl of Mar died in 1435 without a legitimate male heir, and the Earldom of Mar passed to the crown. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:53, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I got interrupted while posting that one and didn't come back to explain why I'd posted it. My reason for posting was to explain that, while primogeniture is the main mechanism for titles to be passed down, there are other mechanisms. In the case of the Earls of Mar, the article I linked to gives the history of the Earldom up until late in the 19th century, and explains the various hiatuses. It can be argued that, even if the Earldom passes to the Crown, then the Earldom is still extant, and the case in the 19th Century where an Act of Parliament confirmed Erskine as the rightful holder of the Earldom illustrates that. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Freddie's overbite

I know he said he couldn't get his teeth fixed because it would interfere with his voice and blah, blah, blah. But my question is, how does getting work done on your teeth affect your voice if your vocal chords aren't being touched at all? I mean, I could understand someone refusing to get a nose job because it might affect their vocals, I could see how that would happen, but what kind of teeth must one have in order for it to have any kind of effect on their voice? And yes, I also know that Freddie had 4 extra teeth in the back which he claimed gave his voice resonance, how did that work? 24.189.87.160 (talk) 04:55, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

For those who are as confused as I was, the OP seems to be referring to Freddie Mercury. Dismas|^(talk) 05:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

OIC. Thanks, Dismas. But still, the things some people wonder about . . . . Which reminds me of the famous answer St. Augustine gave to the people who asked what God was doing before creating the world. Grin. Textorus (talk) 05:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about not including his last name, it's become a force of habit as of late due to me discussing him on forums, so being on a first name basis becomes normal for me. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 05:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The sound of the voice is determined almost entirely by the resonant spaces in the mouth and nasal cavities - the larynx mostly just provides pitch (consider how the sound of a vibrating string changes when placed in front of different resonators, as in guitars, violins, mandolins, zithers...). note, for instance, that the difference between the sounds 'mmmmm', 'eeeee' and 'ooooo' is determined completely by the shape of the lips. so yes, the shape and position of the teeth could have an effect on vocal tambre (particularly considering that repositioning the teeth might also affect the underlying bone structure of the upper and lower jaws). --Ludwigs2 05:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflicted)Our article human voice makes some mention of the mouth's rôle in affecting the quality of the voice. Presumably, removing teeth could affect the mouth's resonant qualities. As if anyone wouldn't know who the question was about! DuncanHill (talk) 05:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's who I figured it would be but I'd never heard the 'extra teeth' story before. Dismas|^(talk) 05:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, he's not listed here you know, and I always go by what Wikipedia says. Textorus (talk) 05:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't know how big of a role teeth played in the sound of the human voice. I thought it only made a difference in how you enunciate certain words, but not how you sounded. And Ludwigs' example of strings sounding different in multiple instruments makes sense. The same way performing live music will sound different in certain venues because of the varying acoustics. Considering that Freddie had some, er, big chompers that would require extensive dental work, I could see how he would be terrified for his voice in his case. Although I wonder if there have been any famous singers renowned for their voices (opera included) who have gotten dental surgery and it made a noticeable difference in their voices. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Depending whom you believe, Winston Churchill had false teeth specially designed to maintain or to disguise his inherited lisp. Thus both the Queen and the King would have heard different voices had teeth not been as they were.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:27, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone considered that it didn't bother him, and that he had no reason to have his overbite fixed? --Jayron32 00:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Nope, he actually wanted to get his teeth fixed. In fact, one of his quotes was "I don't like the way my teeth protrude, I'm going to have them done. But apart from that, I'm perfect.". Of course, I'm personally not bothered by his teeth, I've seen FAR worse, but I knew he was insecure about them yet couldn't do anything about it due to his voice, so I just wondered how would dental work would disturb his singing. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 00:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, Gene Tierney would have considered that. Or, as Hawkeye remarked to Blake after being updated that Cornel Wilde had just kissed Tierney "right smack on" (in a movie): "If he straightens out that overbite, I'll kill him." [1] ---Sluzzelin talk 00:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Dick Cheney; did he have any ministrokes before 2001?

I think Dick Cheney was much different in George H. W. Bush's administration than he was when he became vice-president in 2001. Is it known if he had any ministrokes that could have affected his reason and emotions? (As you might guess, i didn't like what he did as vice-president. However I would like to find extenuating circumstances for what IMO were wrongful actions by him. If such circumstances were found, it might help a national reconciliation.)The current wikipedia article doesn't mention any. Thanks, 24.7.28.186 (talk) 06:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)Rich (talk) 06:19, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I can see how the OP's wish to smear a serving politician as neurologically unfit for office is a sincere effort to help the USA. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Really? I can't: would you care to explain it to us? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 10:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's complicated. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You are clearly being sarcastic because I offended you. I'm sorry. Perhaps our politics differ. But I am indeed sincere.Rich (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The original question referred to changed behaviour. That's not a political issue, although the questioner did put a political slant on it. On a very much smaller scale, a lady in a voluntary organisation of which I am part caused considerable conflict over the past twelve months. She has just been formally diagnosed with a particular medical condition known to cause behavioural changes and is now taking medication for it. No world scale politics here, but the same kind of scenario. Medical/psychiatric conditions DO affect behaviour. We should be allowed to consider the possibility. (I also imply no comment whatsoever about Dick Cheney.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and though I did have a political slant I was straightforward about it. It is also almost certain that Cheney's military opinions on Iraq were different after 2001 than during and just after Desert Storm. I have been told that people who have had heart attacks are at risk for ministrokes. So if anyone knows whether Cheney did have any before 2001, I will appreciate your answer. Otherwise let's cool it.Rich (talk) 05:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Boleskine House

Who is the current owner of Boleskine House, and does anyone currently live there? --Viennese Waltz 08:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

According to this BBC documentary (video from 2000) the house was bought in 1991 by owners who wish to be left alone. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Kind of makes you wonder what they're up to in there... --Viennese Waltz 10:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You can zoom down and peek in their chimney. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Registers of Scotland have a search service here. DuncanHill (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Fly as much as you want ticket?

Is there some life ticket where you can take as much airplane trips as you want? I have seen the idea in the book Small World by David Lodge but could not find any real reference of it (unless some promotional one-month campaigns).--Quest09 (talk) 10:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The characters in Small World with that privilege had it because their adoptive father ran the airline in question - it probably came under the heading "staff perks" rather than a product available to any ordinary customer at a price. Karenjc 11:11, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You can get 'around the world' air tickets. These generally are expensive (but cheaper than individual tickets), and limit you to

1. Always fly east (or west, depending on the ticket).
2. You can't loop back with another ticket, and then continue with the main ticket - i.e. each origin airport must be east (or the same) as the previous destination airport.
3. You can't pass your initial airport.
4. The ticket has a limited lifetime. Normally one or two years.
5. You may need to book each flight - i.e. the ticket is not a turn-up and go, but a pre-paid token for purchasing real tickets.

However, you can keep zig-zaging north-to-south as much as you want, as long as you head slightly east at each hop. CS Miller (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE applies. Note that most Round-the-world tickets have some additional restrictions. An alternative (or addition) would be a collection of Continent passes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

When I was in college, one of my roommates would fly all over the country while we were on school breaks. His mother worked for an airline and he got to fly free or nearly so. I think he might have had to pay $20 or so for meals or some such thing. Dismas|^(talk) 12:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I know that if you worked for British Airways x years (on higher position) then you may fly free everywhere together with your spouse, furthermore your spouse after your death will also get the same (free flying). I don't know if they didn't make any limitations though since they had some torubles lately, and don't know about different airlines, those cheap doesn't have that for sure, over there even pilot has to pay for his flight ;-) Shaman (talk) 18:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The round-the-world ticket I bought some years ago had none of these restrictions, just that the total journey length had to be under 30,000 miles (48,000 km). I had no problem buying additional tickets for side trips (even within the same code-share partners) or breaking the journey with car travel and continuing from another airport. Astronaut (talk) 13:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia HTML Upload Error

I'm trying to upload a .jpg file of wikimedia and keep getting this error:

This file contains HTML or script code that may be erroneously interpreted by a web browser

What does it mean and how can I fix it? --CGPGrey (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Use a tool to remove embedded metadata, probably. Jpegtran is an old command-line program; there may be others... AnonMoos (talk) 10:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

A jpg file should contain an image, and not HTML which is for describing a web page. Try to open your file in MS PAINT to see if it is an image. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:19, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's an image alright. All of the images from my flickr stream have the same problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CGPGrey (talk • contribs) 10:28, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

After trying to get FlickrBot to upload a file then trying it manually when that didn't work and getting the same error I searched for the error and found [2]. As described there and from looking at your files, the problem is likely that your files all contain <a href which is forbidden because it will be interpreted by some/all versions of IE as HTML which could lead to people making malicious images by adding more insidious code. Either use [a href etc or don't bother to add a href (intepret that either way is fine) and just put the website link. Hope this helps Nil Einne (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

See File:Pope Benedict protest 2010-09-18 CGP Grey 0084.jpg where I modified the IPTC with Irfanview lossless editing tool and replace the < with [ and > with ] Nil Einne (talk) 13:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Rebuilding a boat, plank by plank

Resolved

I remember reading an article about a philosophical argument that used an example of someone replacing a wooden plant from a ship and continuing to do so until all the boards had been replaced and the old planks used to build another boat -- the question was then which boat is the original. A similar concept was used by those wanting to avoid emissions regulations on VW beetles; apparently, the VIN is old enough that the cars are exempt from tests but they don't run properly -- so the owners changed the VIN and used this philosophical argument to say that what they had really done was change every single piece of the car except the VIN, and in essence, the car was the original (even though all the parts were new) and so it was indeed exempt from the emissions tests. What was the name of this ship...something like Plato's ship, but I cannot remember or fine it! DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Ship of Theseus. Dismas|^(talk) 13:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The metal components are only the physical realization of the 'idea' of a 'peoples car' (Volks Wagon). So yes, it is still the same 'car' how ever many times you rebuild it. The VIN tells you so and there is only ever that one unique number to have ever rolled off the production lines. --Aspro (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, the modern expression Trigger's broom[3] is in common use. The broom in question (from a TV comedy), had 17 new heads and 14 new handles. Alansplodge (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to all, and to Dismas for his response in under 5 minutes!! DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 15:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

A hot-rod builder Boyd Coddington was doing this - completely rebuilding old pre-war cars that there was barely couple of original parts, but still registered as 'historical', guys from government didin't like it, they ruled it as a scam. For me I prefer not to overdo, as the subject of restoration loses its identity somehow because of that.Shaman (talk) 18:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

There was also a similar case with Bentley's Old Number One. A guy bought it, but then wanted to return it because it was substantially different than the original car. The judge basically said that there had been continuous modifications, and at no point did the car cease to be the real Number One. [4].

And for an example of a real ship with this happening, see the USS Constitution. It's not quite in the same situation as the Ship of Theseus yet (I think some of the timbers below the waterline are still original), but it's on its way to that state in the near future. There have been two major restorations and several smaller ones, and you'd be hard pressed to pick out things that were present when she defeated the Guerriere. Buddy431 (talk) 18:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome! Anytime. Dismas|^(talk) 20:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The same has been done with Canterbury city walls, there is a sign now pointing toward the only part of the original still standing. Or so they say, I cannot see any difference there to the rest of the wall. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 08:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

(Late to the party...) The question is an important one with regard to the Cutty Sark, which went up in flames in 2007 and is now undergoing lengthy & expensive restoration, or rebuilding, depending on your definitions. BrainyBabe (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The Cutty Sark and HMS Victory could be further examples. 92.28.253.68 (talk) 09:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

SAT score

What are the average/median/mode (whichever) SAT/ACT scores of entrants to Harvard, or other Ivy League schools? I know they look at more than your tests but that's all I'm interested at this particular moment. thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.78.167 (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The National Center for Education Statistics [5] compiles statistics like this. At Harvard, [6] it gives 25th-75th percentile SAT scores of 690-780 for reading, 690-790 for math, and 690-780 for writing. Buddy431 (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

BBC

So, just moved and set up my TV, retuned all the channels and such like. Also set up this new-fangled HDD recorder, which apparently can record TV without needing any videos. It worked before, but now, does not. On my TV, I can get channels 1, 2, 3 and 4, though in very bad quality, whilst on the HDD recorder, channels start at 3, and very soon jump to the 700s, there are no BBC channels there at all, and consequently I cannot record anything off them. I have tried retuning again and again in digital, and it always finds the same 31 channels. I have retuned in analogue as well, since it is the analogue setting of my TV that produces the channels, and recieved then about a hundred channels, all identical black screens. A third option is to copy channels from my TV, which is not allowed, because apparently they cannot communicate. I have tested all the wires I can find and spent a couple of hours pushing buttons, to no avail. If noone has any ideas how to fix this, is it at all possible to get TV on the BBC website and record that, or copy it over off of iPlayer?

148.197.121.205 (talk) 17:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It always helps to mention which makes and models one is talking about in case it is a known idiosyncrasy. Have moved to an area of bad reception (your new neighbour might know the answer to that). Or a property with an old aerial system that needs replacing. Is it pointing in the same direction as all the others? I don't know how digital signals are multiplexed together but someone else might know why BBC is missing. As it effects both devices it sounds like a poor signal. But isn't this a good excuse to find out where all the local pubs are?--Aspro (talk) 18:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like you're in a low signal area, check here. 82.44.55.25 (talk) 18:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The real problem that needs fixing is just to get BBC1 and 2, (which I can get, albeit at low quality, on my TV) over onto the recorder such that I can record programs off them. If it were a low signal problem, surely I would not get the channels on either, and would it not have some effect on others, such as ITV, which comes through remarkably clearly. Besides which, the site linked to above specifically states that I should get BBC 1, 2 and 3. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Err just a thought. When you say you have retuned. Do you mean you have done a 1st time tune or factory reset, where you get asked if you want your old channels deleted. As you have moved, a straight forward retune wont find your new local transmitters.--Aspro (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The digital channels (which is what your recorder needs) are transmitted quite separately from the traditional analog channels. There are several multiplexes each carrying a selection of channels. This page shows that BBC 1, 2 and 3 are on Mux 1, but ITV is on Mux 2. So if you are in a bad reception area, or have an aerial that is at the limit of its performance, you might happen to pick up ITV but none of the BBC channels. (And again, the analog channels are quite separate from this). You probably need to upgrade your aerial. --ColinFine (talk) 20:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I have yet to see a 'factory reset' in the list of menu options, I went for the startup tuning, same as I did on first buying it, that seems to work better than any of the others listed there. I just seems a little strange to me that out in the middle of nowhere I got dozens of channels, and in the middle of a big city cannot get BBC1 and 2. Noone else around here has said anything about similar trouble, though I have not gone and specifically asked everyone yet. And before anyone suggests it, I am on the ninth floor here, overlooking a small park, so I doubt there could be any interference from surrounding buildings. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 08:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

It sounds as if you just have a bad aerial connection. You don't say what area you have moved to. Some areas have gone digital and some are still transmitting only the old analogue signal. A local TV or aerial shop will know which. It is possible that you have no digital signal, so your new recorder will not work at all if it has no analogue input. Have you got your TV in digital or analogue mode? Will it tune to any channel at all in digital mode? Dbfirs 09:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have tried both 'replace channels' and 'add channels', with the exact same results either time. In digital I can get some channels, though none of the BBC. There is nothing wrong, though, with ITV or Channel 4. this is Portmouth, which, last I heard, had not changed over to digital. Or perhaps it has. Either way, I can get channels 3 and 4, but not 1 or 2, that is the problem.

What can I do? Could I go down to B&Q or Argos and say I need a [something] to plug into the back and make the signal better? I have done that once before, and it seemed to work. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The Freeview site says it should be OK for coverage so that's not the problem. If the TV is not too big, the next step would be to take along to a neighbour (with a working digital TV) to see if its OK there. Is it a community areal system (in which case your spur should be repaired by the landlord). You have a ITV multiplex transponder right on your doorstep which might explain getting ITV. Don't plug in boosters yet, you might just boost the noise still further.--Aspro (talk) 09:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

In case someone asks, the other details are: This is the Maridian region, Rowridge transmitter. CURRENT ENGINEERING WORKS IN PROGGRESS [7] Signal strength should be OK. Situation recommends an 'A' group aerial with horizontal polarization. There appears to be an independently owned transposer to improve local reception, situated in the Docks themselves. Just placed there out of spite perhaps, in order to add another unknown into the equation. I still think this is a good excuse to explore the local pubs and watch their TV's instead.--Aspro (talk) 11:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I seem to recall from a friend's problems some years back that in certain parts of Portsmouth there are issues with tall buildings or similar structures causing localised poor reception, due to signals being shadowed or reflected. Googling on 'Portsmouth TV Reception problems' throws up some related results, which you might be able to analyse further. You might need to install an improved aerial to improve reception. You might get some useful input from your nearest friendly TV dealer. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

A few hours ago my phone here suddenly started working, so I thought, maybe the TV has as well, and tried retuning one more time, with the result that a whole bunch of BBC channels have now appeared, for no apparent reason. So, problem solved, thanks for all your help. :) 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

River Plate

Vivo en la ciudad de Anaheim Hills, California, USA. Porque es que han dejado de dar los partidos de River Plate? Antes los veia todos los domingos en Fox Sport o T&C. Recibo cuatro partidos por domingo, pero no el de mi cuadro favorito, River Plate. Podrian ustedes darme una respuesta? Les agradeceria muchisimo. J. Ruben Deluca email removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.143.243 (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Via Google translate: "I live in the city of Anaheim Hills, California, USA. Because it is no longer given the River Plate games? Before seeing them every Sunday on Fox Sport or T & C. I get four games Sunday, but not my favorite picture, River Plate. Could you give me an answer? Les agradeceria muchisimo." -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

By which I guess the OP used to watch Club Atlético River Plate games on TV (particularly Fox Sports en Español, I guess). I can't find a reliable source, but there are some recent posts on various websites kvetching that FSeE has shifted its football coverage to more Mexican and less Argentinian coverage. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 20:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

La asociación del fútbol argentino decidió emitir la mayoría de los partidos argentinos por la TV Público (lo que era Canal 7 de Argentina). Por lo tanto, Fox Sports en español y Torneos y Competencias perdieron sus derechos de emitir los partidos en sus canales. Si le interesa, casi todos los partidos están disponibles en la Internet por http://www.canal7.com.ar, pero la calidad de la trasmisión es muy baja, y como mucha gente quiere verlos en vivo, a veces alcanza el máximo y deja de funcionar. Espero que esta información le sea útil. // The Argentine Football Association decided to give the rights to most of the games to local broadcast station Canal 7. Therefore, FoxSports and T&C lost the rights to carry the games. If the OP's interested, most of the games are available at the website I linked to, but they're poor quality and the service often overloads with so many people watching the games live. Hope that helps.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 03:31, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

iconic cars

Paykan has been called iconic car of Iran and Lada has been called the iconic car of Russia. Except France, Germany, Italy, U.K., Sweden, Japan and South Korea, which other cars has been called iconic cars in other European and Asian nations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.42.23 (talk) 20:53, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

This one is quite iconic in the Vatican. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's manufactured in Germany though, isn't it? — Kpalion^(talk) 14:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The Auto Rickshaw is iconic of India (and apparently much of Asia). ny156uk (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The Hindustan Ambassador. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The Škoda of Czechoslovakia. Rojomoke (talk) 21:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The Delorean of Northern Ireland? ny156uk (talk) 21:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Even though the question is about Europe and Asia, I have to tell you that Australia has two! They are the Holden and the Falcon. HiLo48 (talk) 22:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to argue for the Holden over the Ford. (I have owned both so no COI) It was the original Australian made car, unless I'm very mistaken. - Arrr! ☠ - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 23:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Define "original Australian made car". David Shearer produced a car which featured a differential gear in an enclosed case in 1897, and this wasn't the first Australian made car (just the first one that I know about). As for "iconic" Australian cars IMO the Holden FJ qualifies, but the Ford Falcon doesn't, as the XK was basically a right hand drive version of the American model. The Falcon range is much like the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla; the name goes on but the concept changes. --TrogWoolley (talk) 14:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Completely OR list off the top of my head...

• USA - Ford Mustang / Model T Ford / Chevrolet Corvette
• UK - Ford Escort / Rolls Royce
• Italy - Ferrari (take your pick of the model) / Fiat 500
• France - Renault 4 / Citroen 2CV
• Germany - Audi Quattro / BMW (any)

etc Exxolon (talk) 01:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

or East Germany - Trabant Rojomoke (talk) 01:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

England - Mini? Or these? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Romania - Dacia 1300 80.123.210.172 (talk) 09:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

How about the Yugo? Googlemeister (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I was just thinking of suggesting that - Yugoslavia had one car producer (plus at least some local factories for foreign cars, Slovenia had/has a Citroen and a Renault factory) and crippling taxes on import cars, so most of the cars used on Yugoslav roads were Yugoslav made - the by far most common of these being the Yugo, the Zastava 101 and the licensed Fiat 600 based Zastava 750. Of these, the Yugo can be said to have achieved international iconic status, although not in an exactly flattering manner :) TomorrowTime (talk) 05:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

What about the great British Reliant Robin? Alansplodge (talk) 18:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The Fiat 126 or Maluch (affectionately meaning small thing, small child or little one) in Poland, or if you want to reach further back, the Warszawa or the Syrena. Mind you, only the Syrena is a Polish design - the Fiat was manufactured under licence from Italy, the Warszawa used, at least in the beginning, designs of the soviet Pobeda. A cared-for, rebuilt and outfitted, street-worthy Warszawa (a little dream of mine) can cost about as much as a brand new Passat B6), takes about 2-3 years of work and is a true rarity now. --Ouro (blah blah) 13:23, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

What about the Polonez? — Kpalion^(talk) 14:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Right on! There was a saying that, at least the earlier models, were biodegradable: the car would fall apart by itself three years from the production date. --Ouro (blah blah) 15:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Bad car jokes seem to be a common thing in all ex-communist countries :) One that springs to mind is this: Later models of the Yugo had heating lines on the back windows, so that your hands didn't get cold when you had to get out and push the car in the winter. TomorrowTime (talk) 16:30, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Good one! As for jokes, we had a whole booklet published with jokes about the Maluch - mainly playing on its small size. There were drawings, too! --Ouro (blah blah) 19:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

September 20

9mm ammo in .38 caliber gun

On an episode of Dragnet (series), they said that 9mm ammunition can't possibly be fired from a .38 caliber gun. Since 9mm is only a little smaller than 0.38 inch, is that true? Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 15:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The calibre isn't the only issue - the dimensions of the full round (and the chamber that accommodates it) matter too. As you've only described calibres rather than specific kinds of ammo, lets consider 9x19mm Parabellum (a very common round for 9mm semiautomatic pistols) vs the .38 Special. For those, you'll see that the .38 round is 8mm longer - a .38 round wouldn't fit into the chamber of a 9mm parabellum firearm, and a 9mm pb round would be so loose in the chamber of a .38 special gun that the hammer wouldn't be able to strike it properly. Now two things are possible - it's possible to rechamber a firearm - to replace or remachine the chamber to take a different round. Mostly people seem to do this with old rifles, for which the ammo is no longer made. Secondly you can use an adaptor cartridge - that PDF shows adapters to allow smaller calibre rounds to be fired from a 9mm; I don't know specifically if they exist (or could be made) to adapt a 9mm pb to .38 special. Lastly, these days mostly for much much larger calibres like tank and artillery rounds, a smaller diameter round can be adapted to fit a wider barrel with a sabot. All of this is fairly complicated gunsmithy stuff that you'd surely only really see in some detective thing where someone was trying to conceal which gun had fired what by some elaborate mechanism. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 15:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. On Dragnet they could look at it and tell whether it was from an automatic, and mentioned left and right. I suppose that is the direction of the rifling. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 16:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

A good forensic ballistics expert can tell all kinds of things by examining a fired bullet, including details of the rifling of the weapon that fired it. If discussing a specific bullet, they could surely say "this specific bullet wasn't fired from a .38", because the marking done to it is wrong. That's not the same as meaning "this type of bullet cannot be fired from a .38", although in both cases the ever ambiguous English language would let one say "this bullet cannot have been fired from a .38". But really, in practice, bar the looneytune stuff I outlined above, guns only ever fire the rounds they're built to fire. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 17:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Only thing I can think to add is that 9mm is rimless and thus would not stay in place in a .38 revolver. A moon clip could solve this problem. I would say they stretched the truth by saying "can't possibly" - if someone wanted to rig up a way to do this, they could. (This does not, of course, make it a good idea to attempt to do so.) Friday (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The left and right refer to the rifling direction. There are some guns that can fire different rounds. The most common example is probably the .38 Special that can be fired in some .357 Magnum guns (but not the other way around). Another consideration, other than the geometries, is the pressures involved. Firing an overloaded round is the cause of a lot of firearm accidents; certainly be sure you're using the right round in the right gun. Shadowjams (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

And there you have it: just the facts from Friday. dum dee dum dum Clarityfiend (talk) 21:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Yrs, thanks everyone. Friday investigated an apparent suicide with a .38, but the slug was a 9mm. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 23:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Front Loading Washing Machines Units Sold

Looking for the most recent information on the number of residential front loading washing machines sold in the US annually (not total value of units sold). Couldn't find this information on Census site or yours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_machine#External_links)

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.239.4 (talk) 16:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

You're right, it's not an easy statistic to find. I suggest you send an email to the experts at the Bureau of Economic Analysis of the U.S. Department of Commerce, bet they can steer you to it. Textorus (talk) 05:23, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Market for the Popemobile?

I was wondering about the picture (File:Popemobile passes the White House.jpg) posted above in the #iconic cars thread. Have any others (royals, celebs, politicians) made any use of a similar vehicle? (I mean something very much just like that: casual, stylish, and visually-accessible such as perhaps the QofE might also prefer at times as useful and convenient; not the sort of heavily-armored vehicles that look formidably protective such as the one that didn't actually function that way too well in the case of Benazir Bhutto. I'm talking about chic and stylish and functional too, like the Popemobile). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There are some presidential vehicles listed under Category:One-off_automobiles, but they don't look as "different" as the Popemobile. (There are also the Monkeemobile, Bluesmobile, and Wienermobile, but not for royals or politicians :) ---Sluzzelin talk 16:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

A monarch would not want to be seen dead in one, as it is not a dignified way to perambulate one's kingdom.Nor can I see any cabinet in which to store the Dubonnet and gin. It could do with a bit of 21st century pimping though, to make it more attractive to a wider clientèle. Some bullbars to aid speedily cutting a swath through the milling throngs would be a useful addition (have you seen how slow he's driver has to go). As would a descent sound system, for would not Danny Boy at 200 watts bring tears to any traffic cops eyes! They will have to ditch the name Popemobile too. I'd prefer a more modern name like the Papal Carrier MCXXIV --Aspro (talk) 17:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Her Majesty prefers something less aquarium-like[8]. More often, she uses a customised Rolls-Royce Phantom VI and more recently a Bentley State Limousine with a raised roof and interior lighting so that the public can see inside[9]. Her parents were more partial to Daimler Limousines. But if you want stylish, you can't beat a good old horse and cart[10]. Alansplodge (talk) 17:51, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The elegant royal equivalent is the "Glass Coach" (unfortunately a redlink -- see Template:Royal state coaches of the British monarch)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I can't believe we're back to Guido Westerwelle (we just had a question at the language desk), but I just thought of the Guidomobil, a not so chic yellow bus in which he toured the country, campaigning for his party before the German federal election, 2002. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Jean Marie Le Pen had to sell of his personalised car. (Various articles in French are more illuminating.) At the time, the papers ran more detailed descriptions of the car, but I can't find any. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 19:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Satin /Silk

My parents were married in 1940 and my mother made her gown out of satin . I think that would have actually been silk . Given the year would I be correct24.72.110.152 (talk) 17:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

If it was in the UK, it probably would have been from a parachute![11][12] Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The questioner doesn't say where Mother lived at the time. Even in the UK, the dress could have been made from either material that was bought before the war began. Textorus (talk) 17:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes that's true - it was a rather facitious answer. 1940 was quite early in the war. Alansplodge (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Alansplodge, I mention this not to nitpick, but to let you know you missed out on the opportunity to use a word that, when correctly spelt, is one of the few that contains not only all the vowels, but has them in alphabetic order: facetious. Commiserations.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Huh. Never noticed that before, amazing. Textorus (talk) 03:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I hope you're not speaking facetiously... Matt Deres (talk) 13:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

What happened to the 'w'? --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Dim Cymraeg? 109.155.33.219 (talk) 01:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The "sometimes y and w" appended to the list of vowels isn't mainly talking about Welsh loanwords like cwm, I think. It's about words like bow. The "w" in bow is as much a vowel letter as the "y" in boy. Now, if you could find a word with aeiouwy in order, all used as vowels, that would really be something. --Trovatore (talk) 03:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Neither facetiously nor factitiously. Textorus (talk) 14:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

There's only a couple of dozen such words, most fairly obscure; here's a list. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

OM*G. Who knew? Textorus (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

When I first saw it I thought it said factitious, which to be honest is a word of whose meaning I have only a fairly vague idea. I'll link it here: wikt:factitious so that I can go look it up. --Trovatore (talk) 20:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Satin actually refers to the weave of the material, not the material. Also, parachutes where mostly synthetic in WWII. Not a lot of people know that. Here is the first cite I came across. [13]. It was/is called Art silk. Real silk is still used even to day however, for the explosive charges on the big guns of battles ships, because it does not leave a smouldering residue. Not a lot of people know that either. --Aspro (talk) 17:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't believe any navy still uses battleships for anything other then museums, unless they occasionally fire the main guns as a demonstration, perhaps? Googlemeister (talk) 13:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources indicating real silk was used in parachutes in the second World War: (silk or nylon)(mentions silk and nylon), [14]. Edison (talk) 19:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

During war time, labour became a scarce resource. Silk worms raised on mulberry required more man-hours (or woman-hours) per square foot. Your sources do not overturn what was used. Rather they displayed war time moral building propaganda which was orchestrated by Edward Bernays,et. al. The use of the word 'silk' helped to give the impression, that we (the tax payer and government), were giving our air crew (your sons and sweet-hearts) the very best equipment. There was a war on! The material and manufacturing methods that provided the most parachutes, on time, was what the factories delivered. That was the reality... Today, the war has been long over. There is no need anylonger to believe Bernays as gospel .--Aspro (talk) 20:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The WP article on Nylon says; "Bill Pittendreigh, DuPont, and other individuals and corporations worked diligently during the first few months of World War II to find a way to replace Asian silk and hemp with nylon in parachutes." The first months of the war in the US would be firmly in 1942. Alansplodge (talk) 20:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There are references saying WW2 parachutes were made of silk and of nylon, and none stating that only synthetic parachute material was used, correct? Is it asserted that someone decided to destroy all the existing silk parachutes so that only synthetic fabric would be used during the war? There have long been accounts [15], [16], [17], [18] of WW2 wedding dresses made of silk from parachutes, so that might account for the disappearance of a few, I suppose. Edison (talk) 02:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear -- in the usual Wiki confusion and babble by people who have relatively little idea of what they are talking about -- that Aspro definitively answered the question! Satin is a pattern of weaving threads, it doesn't have anything to do with a particular material. 76.126.217.195 (talk) 12:09, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Lexington or Park

In the film Madagascar, two characters are discussing the best way to get from Central Park Zoo to Grand Central station. The discussion includes the following lines:

• What's the fastest way to Grand Central?
• You should take Lexington.
• What about Park?
• No, Park goes two ways, you can't time the lights.

I think Lexington refers to the Lexington Avenue Subway line, which is what the characters take, but can anybody please help me understand what "Park" is, and what is meant by "goes two ways, you can't time the lights"?

Initially I thought it could be a subway line, where a train in one direction has to wait for one from the other, but the only subway line I can see with Park in the name is the Eastern Parkway Line, which doesn't seem to go to Grand Central Station. I'm wondering if perhaps it is a road, but I can't understand the lights reference. If "goes two ways" means that it is a two-way rather than a one-way street, I don't see why lights are relevant (one-way streets have lights too).

Anyway, I am all guessed out, and would really appreciate any help you can provide. 80.229.115.231 (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure they mean Lexington Avenue vs. Park Avenue. Grand central is on Park Avenue. Lexington Avenue is southbound only, traffic on Park Avenue goes in both directions. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 18:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The issue of the lights is that, for a two way road, the light timing is different to accommodate folks turning right left across the oncoming traffic (either there's a special filter, or the yellow time is longer, to help the junction empty). Their argument centres on whether the light timings for the one-way Lexington Avenue give an advantage that cancels out the slightly longer time to drive to and from it (doing so adds a block's length at either end). -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 18:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Forget turning traffic, it's simpler than that. If you're on a one-way street, the traffic engineers can synchronize all the traffic lights into a green wave progressing at a steady speed. Match that driving speed and you never get stopped at a light. Of course, this is only possible if they're willing to give your street priority over the timing demands of cross streets -- but because Manhattan is a long and narrow island, that's entirely reasonable. With a two-way street, on the other hand, the northbound and southbound traffic have conflicting demands on the timing unless all the traffic lights are spaced at equal intervals. --Anonymous, 22:55 UTC, September 20/10.

Google Maps, incidentally, recommends using 5th Avenue rather than either. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 18:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

And as a pedantic note, it is Grand Central Terminal, not Grand Central Station. Googlemeister (talk) 13:25, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Nazi cap insignia (Eagle with Knight's Cross)

I am in posession of an aluminum cap insignia that I have not been able to identify any further. I would like to find out what branch of the Nazi military it identifies as well as any additional information including the value of this item.Aok1947 (talk) 18:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Some photos would be useful. Use this link to upload one. Wikipedia:Upload--Aspro (talk) 18:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

If you can't upload a picture (not everyone owns a digital camera), then please give a more detailed description. The more information you give us, the more likely we will be able to help---Sluzzelin talk 18:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Place it on a scanner even! Better than nothing.--Aspro (talk) 19:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

you might look through ranks and insignia of the Nazi Party and uniforms and insignia of the Schutzstaffel both of which have a number if images you can compare. --Ludwigs2 23:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Train tracks on north shore of the Harlem?

Resolved

Just to add to the NYC transportation infrastructure quiz today, when I take Metro North commuter rail into Manhattan on the New Haven line, I've noticed some train tracks that go right along the northern shore of the Harlem River. I'm not aware of any passenger lines that use that route, either subway or commuter rail, so I assume it's a freight line -- is that correct? It doesn't look like there's much clearance under the bridges on that track... 96.246.59.38 (talk) 18:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you perhaps means the Hudson Line? If so, that goes to the Highbridge Yard. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 19:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

No. These tracks are (more or less) perpendicular to the Park Avenue Bridge, which is what the Harlem, Hudson, and New Haven lines take over the river. The tracks in question are directly on the water, following the course of the Harlem. I've never seen a train on them (although I only see them twice a day, usually, so that's probably not unusual), and I'm pretty curious what they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.59.38 (talk) 20:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Based on google maps, it looks like these are tracks for freight trains coming down the Hudson River to connect over to a rail yard over in Port Morris and then up the coast into New England or over Hell Gate Bridge into Long Island. Still don't have a name for them or the name of the company that owns them, but that's good enough for me. 96.246.59.38 (talk) 20:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Note also that old port and industrial areas sometimes have private rail lines or private spurs off of public rail lines, that are just there to move volumes of material to and from stocking areas. I'm not saying that's the case here (I have no idea), but it is a possibility. If so, the line may not have a name, or any public record of its existence outside of the company or port authority that constructed it. --Ludwigs2 23:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh there are legions of railrfans in New York, and somebody knows exactly what that line is, and the whole history of it. And note that even industrial spurs would be shown and identified on maps and employee timetables of whatever railroads they connected to. I'm thinking, though, that this map might answer the query. If not, I suggest posing the question over at the talk page of the Trains Wikiproject, where someone's bound to have the answer. Textorus (talk) 03:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

On second thought, it sure does sound like it's the Oak Point Link, specially built by the State of New York in 1998 as a freight connection from the Hudson Line (Metro-North) to CSX's Oak Point Yard in the South Bronx. Textorus (talk) 03:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking of, thanks a bunch. 96.246.58.133 (talk) 16:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Textorus (talk) 17:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

That's funny. I always thought that railfans were restricted to stodgy old britishers; I had no idea the pastime had American adherents as well. fascinating... --Ludwigs2 17:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Thousands of us in the U.S., all kinds, all ages, including many renowned photographers. There's magazines and websites too. As usual, they do things a little differently in Britain, but what the hey. Textorus (talk) 18:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

See also All Aboard WikiProject Trains in the current Signpost. Textorus (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

September 21

costs of "pretty bridges" vs functional/utilitarian bridges

I am trying to find out how much extra it costs to make a bridge "pretty". Such as the paint, scrollwork, materials, ect.------ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cynthia6719 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Why is paint not utilitarian? Paint prevents rust and corrosion, and so is a vital component of the bridge. --Jayron32 01:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, paint is often a necessary element, not a decorative one. But the question as posed is unanswerable: there are many, many different sizes, shapes, and styles of bridges, with and without ornamental details. One would have to ask about a particular bridge, and even then no one but the architect or general contractor or construction accountant would be able to state the exact cost. Textorus (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it's answerable because we would need to find a reference that broke the cost down based on what is absolutely necessary and what makes it "pretty". And I don't think that anyone would go to a city or town with a bridge proposal and say "Well it will cost X if it's pretty and functional but Y if it's heinous hideous and functional" Dismas|^(talk) 03:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Surely you mean hideous, not heinous, Dismas? Bad bridge, bad bridge! Textorus (talk) 03:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it's a regional thing. I've heard both used as a synonym for "very ugly". Dismas|^(talk) 03:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)h

It's not a regional thing, just ignorant speakers. Textorus (talk) 05:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

An example at least, of "making a bridge pretty" are the granite clad pylons on each end of Sydney Harbour Bridge. Quoting the article: "The pylons have no structural purpose; they are there to provide a frame for the arch panels and give better visual balance to the bridge." [19]. The cost of the pylons would fit the OPs(Cynthia6719) criteria. - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 10:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Classic example in recent times is the "signature span" of the Oakland Bay Bridge... AnonMoos (talk) 13:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Our article doesn't give the exact amount of cost savings, but you should note that the George Washington Bridge was intended to be encased in granite, which would have added nothing structurally but was just for appearance sake. For economic reasons during the Depression, the granite was omitted, leaving just the structural steel showing. As it turned out, it looks pretty good even like that. — Michael J 13:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

By way of clarification, it was just the two towers of the bridge that were to be cladded. There were several designs considered for the cladding -- most likely it would have been concrete, and there was at least one design where the concrete cladding would have been structural rather than decorative. I looked in several books -- of the ones I tried, Henry Petroski's Engineers of Dreams had the most detail about this -- but none of them quoted an actual cost estimate for the cladding. --Anonymous, 17:19 UTC, September 21, 2010.

Also, upkeep is an issue. On the Golden Gate bridge, for instance, they pretty much have to start repainting the bridge again as soon as they finish repainting it (corrosive conditions keep them busy). If The Bridge had elaborate scroll work, decorative paint jobs, or other finicky bits, they'd have to hire more people to keep up with the job, and the costs of maintaining the bridge would jump. Incidentally, the GG Bridge authority discourages the use of the bridge name and the word 'jump' in the same passage; I just don't care. --Ludwigs2 17:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The story about the Golden Gate Bridge's constant repainting is not true; see [20]. It is true that there is ongoing maintenance and paint touch-up work, but not constant repainting of the whole bridge. This is apparently a common urban legend that is applied to a number of large bridges; see Forth Bridge#Maintenance. —Bkell (talk) 08:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

This page discusses the costs of a utilitarian vs. a fancy bridge over the Grand River in Cambridge, Ontario. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Pretty is in the eye of the beholder. Some would argue that utilitarian is pretty. Bus stop (talk) 23:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The Sundial Bridge at Turtle Bay seems to have been designed with "pretty" in mind. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Looking for four notes that will sound good no matter how they're played

Hi all,

I'm making a little musical toy for my five-year-old niece. I'd like a suggestion for four notes which can be played in any order and should sound harmonious when played. I might expand the toy later, so using a scale that gives me more than four notes would be ideal. I don't know much about music (as you can tell), but I was thinking maybe a pentatonic? But then I was wondering if this would be too bluesy for a five-year-old... Thanks! — Sam 76.24.222.22 (talk) 02:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest a major chord, which gives you three notes, which can be expanded to four by including the octave above the fundamental. E.g. middle C, E, G and C-above-middle-C. -- 174.24.192.84 (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

You could also add the seventh in, so C E G Bb which is also a fine sounding chord. In general, setting up the instrument on any major scale (as defined by equal temperament), would result in pleasant sound. Lots of kids toys are set up on major scales, so they always sound "good" even when played randomly. --Jayron32 02:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

See Taps. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Whatever notes are selected, if it were me, I'd give the thing a thorough "test drive" first to be sure it produced pleasant sounds, not jangly ones - if I wanted to stay friends with the little girl's parents. Unless of course I hated them and wanted to drive them out of their effing minds with sound torture. Textorus (talk) 03:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Usual practice, when using a reduced scale to introduce a child to music, is indeed to use a pentatonic scale. It only sounds bluesy if she play blues, and you probably want to use the major pentatonic scale anyway! It's a nice basic scale, anything sounds pretty good, there are no dischords, and you can easily expand it all the way up to a major scale when she's older. Orff would say that's exactly what you should be doing! 109.155.33.219 (talk) 11:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies! Now we have to see how a child can make any nice scale completely annoying... :) — Sam 63.138.152.135 (talk) 13:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The kid will end up playing one of the notes over and over, and over and over, again and again. FOREVER. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, they're 5: you might be lucky. Is there any way to add a secure mute option, for the parents? My 2-year-old nephew only likes the first demo on his little keyboard, and particularly loves the first 6 notes of the intro to it. I hear those notes in my dreams sometimes, over and over. He worked out all the buttons and switches amazingly quickly, just to be able to play those 6 notes over and over again, as loud as he could. When he first got it, you could turn it off for a few minutes peace, but he found and mastered the tiny power switch. Then you could turn it down, but he found and mastered the volume. Then you could switch to a less piercing synth-voice, but he conquered that too. If I had to write a soundtrack for a psychological horror film, I think it would be those 6 notes, in that style, over and over and over and over and over... 109.155.33.219 (talk) 00:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

An alternative (that might be equally annoying) would be a chime sequence (you can listen to these) such as the Westminster quarters. Dbfirs 02:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Much music in the world has the pentatonic scale in common. Also there are many songs that can be played with these notes. I would build one with 5 using C D E G A as the notes. Not only is it pentatonic it is based around C and A which are both excellent notes to build a sense of absolute pitch around (C being the 'base' tonic and A being the classical tuning note)124.171.93.13 (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Noooo, absolute pitch bad, absolute pitch destructive, absolute pitch will discourage them from enjoying and joining in with most music, and will make it hard for them to develop musically. But, luckily, as long as they have regular access to other instruments (or another instrument) that is tuned slightly differently, or listen to a lot of music (much of which will not be tuned to modern standard concert pitch), they are very unlikely to develop it. Instead, they are likely to develop the extremely useful relative pitch, which most musicians have. 109.155.33.219 (talk) 11:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

"It's your dime"

What does "It's your dime" mean as it's used at this page? I'm thankful that I wasn't asked this at my job interview earlier today, because I've not a clue what it means, even though (1) I'm an American, so I'm familiar with dimes, and (2) I've Googled the phrase, but all I can find are usages that don't tell me what it means, even by the context. Nyttend (talk) 14:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I can't imagine how a generic "it's your dime" would qualify as a question. I've certainly never heard of it being common in an interview. I've always assumed the phrase itself came from when calls from a payphone only cost a dime. The recipient of the call (or the person listening) saying that as long as you're the one paying to talk, I'll listen to what you have to say. --Onorem♠Dil 14:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

In the context of a job interview it probably means "over to you - tell us anything else you think we should know, or ask us any questions you have" - see here. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm American and also familiar with dimes.  :-) It means exactly what the two people above have said it means. It's an old phrase from when payphone calls literally cost a dime. Basically, the person giving the interview is saying "You're here. You have my attention. Now tell me why I should hire you." Basically, you've spent your money (effort, etc), now talk while you have the opportunity. Dismas|^(talk) 15:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Literally it means "You're paying for this phone-call, (So talk about what you like, it doesn't cost me anything.)" In job interview context it probably means "Make an effort to convince me, it doesn't cost me anything to not hire you."

Frankly, I'd find it weird thing for an employer to say. Usually it implies a sort of carefree attitude on the part of the speaker. Finding decent employees is a time-consuming and important process. Implying that the it's entirely lopsided like that is either a little weird or a little insulting. APL (talk) 15:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, nobody has to hire you, you know; the world doesn't owe you a living. And companies of any size at all routinely get dozens if not hundreds of applications for every single position they advertise, especially in the current job market. It's up to you to convince the interviewer that you deserve the job - which is the point of the statement. Textorus (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Another way "it's your dime" could be intended, APL, is, "Okay, you take the wheel." Steer the interview where you'd like it to go -- which is an opportunity if you haven't yet gotten to make what you think are strong points, or to ask key questions about the organization, the position, the current challenges, and so forth. An interviewer could also use this after hearing too many over-rehearsed, textbook replies to questions. --- OtherDave (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Textorus, sure. I've interviewed people before too, and my attitude has never been "This is only important to you." which is what "It's your dime" implies to me. It's as least as important to an employer to identify good prospects, otherwise we wouldn't go through the whole rigermarole of bringing people in. Perhaps attitudes are different at larger companies, I don't know. I always just assumed that a "It's our dime" attitude prevailed in big companies. (That is, "This interview is costing us, more than it's costing you, so you'd better not be wasting our time." )

I'm not sure that I've ever understood the phrase to mean "Okay, you take the wheel.", except in the sense of "Don't expect me to lead this, I'm just as happy not having this conversation." APL (talk) 18:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way, in my experience the usual form of the expression is "it's your nickel". It goes back to when pay phones typically charged 5¢, not 10¢, for a local call (I think that price was usual until the 1950s or so, although it persisted much later in a few places, notably New Orleans). --Anonymous, 17:24 UTC, September 21, 2010.

Google isn't supporting me, but I consider the complete sentence to be "it's your dime, start talkin'", and it has a "Sam Spade" detective story quality to it.. At face value, it would mean "you called me, so talk." I'd be slightly taken aback if I heard it during an interview, but in that context, I'd guess that the interviewer wants me to sell myself. --LarryMac | Talk 22:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a counter-phrase, "not on my dime, [you don't]". I think the sense is strengthened if one thinks of calls that aren't unlimited once you deposit the dime, but (like long-distance/trunk calls), require you to keep feeding the slot with coins as time passes. If you're taking up my time with long-winded, irrelevant or distasteful digressions, don't do it on my dime (i.e. at my progressively-increasing expense); don't make me keep feeding the slot while you blather on. Similarly if you're paying for the call (just as if you're buying the drinks or dinner), then I don't mind (or at least shouldn't object to) what you say or how you say it or how long you take to do so before getting to the point, recite your favorite poems if you like, it's on your dime, not mine. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:19, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

[This] from the same website explains what they mean. Zoonoses (talk) 12:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

End of "The Town"

Spoilers ahead, I guess, but in the end of The Town, a gang of thieves has been cornered by the Boston Police and the FBI. In the movie they exchange gunfire and the police lob in a couple of flashbangs. Is there any reason, if this situation were to occur in real-life, why the police or the feds wouldn't use tear gas? 96.246.58.133 (talk) 17:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't know about real life, but I guarantee you the flashbangs were chosen for the movie on account of being much more cinematic and testosterone-producing. Textorus (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Can't really speak to the movie, but one of the prime practical drawbacks of chemical warfare is that in close quarters, it hurts you just as much as it hurts them. Flashbangs have no such limitation. As for "more cinematic" above -- billowing clouds of dramatic smoke aren't cinematic? That's not really a convincing rationale. — Lomn 19:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I dunno Lomn, I get off a lot more on a loud bang than a wisp of smoke, how about you? Textorus (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

And therein lies my point -- it's your personal preference, not a referenced (or referenceable) statement. — Lomn 19:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, flashbangs usually do not have the limitation of hurting you as much as them. "How Not To Deploy a Flashbang" ;) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Dang, nailed by the observant Lomn, and out-billowed too. I withdraw the observation. Are you happy now? Textorus (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know what the situation was. Our Urban Warfare article indicates that the best weapons and tactics for any given situation are considered and then applied. For a better sense of the aims and methods of that general kind of mission, see also our Close quarters combat article. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

@ Textorus, surely the flashbangs are a result of testosterone(driven behaviour), they cause adrenaline. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 07:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I've withdrawn the comment, but do you have a reliable third-party source to cite for your personal point of view here? Better watch out, Smokey may nab you. Textorus (talk) 08:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Windows

why the name window s is added with microsoft —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.32.15 (talk) 18:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"Windows" is the software product. "Microsoft" is the name of the company that produces it. (Along with many other things, like Office or Internet Explorer.) APL (talk) 18:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Calling it 'Microsoft Windows' is like calling the car a 'Ford Focus'. It's usual. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 19:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If you mean why 'Windows' specifically, it seems that the head of marketing at MIcrosoft at the time convinced it to be named such (Rather than 'Interface manager' as it was seemingly going to be called). Source History of Microsoft Windows#Early history: an expansion of MS-DOS. ny156uk (talk) 20:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• Also, the term "Windows" has become so useful that it's not exclusive to Microsoft. Windowing system is a generic term for a graphical user interface that has the same basic look, and the X Window System in particular has a history and pedigree that's in some ways longer than Microsoft's. --M@rēino 14:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Help identifying a pair of vintage sunglasses

They are Ray-Ban Wayfarer style but not Ray-Bans. From sometime in the 1970's, the only marking is one that says "ITALY" and another that says "UP by Lidia." Google hasn't been any help. They may just be some no-name brand, but I'm curious if anyone can find out anything else.

Jasonberger (talk) 19:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I googled around a little bit but didn't find anything specific to the brand you mention. I do seem to recall reading a few years ago that nearly all eyeglass frames sold in the U.S., from the plainest and cheapest up to the megadollar designer styles, are made in a handful of Italian factories. However, I can't find a source to verify that idea, so don't quote me; but anyway here is a list of Italian sunglass manufacters and distributors, which might be of some use. If your ultimate goal is to find out if they are worth something as a collectible item, you might try looking for similar items on eBay or Worthpoint. Textorus (talk) 13:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply and information. I should have added that these were purchased in Italy but either way I appreciate the help and I'll try the ebay and worthpoint thing.

Jasonberger (talk) 18:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

September 22

Broaching Submarine on the Opening video in the "Victory At Sea" series.

In watching this video I perceive that the submarine broaching is prehaps the USS Medregal, SS-480. Can you or anyone confirm this?

Thank you, Bill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.232.211.130 (talk) 16:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to the video please?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

This? Adam Bishop (talk) 19:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

This was a triumph of early TV. Excellent music by Bennett and his collaborator and the NBC Symphony. The film editors, however, would use any footage they came across to satisfy the need for video, and what was on the screen was rarely an accurate depiction of the actual event described, since documentary moviemakers were not hovering over every scene of conflict. Training exercises, Hollywood movies, reenactments, propaganda films, and movies of totally unrelated events were fair game. Edison (talk) 04:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

September 23

Shopping for a first DSLR

What the title says... In any case I've started looking for a dslr, and at this point here are possibilities I was looking at.

• EOS 350D (Rebel XT)
• EOS 400D (Rebel XTi)
• EOS 450 (Xsi)
• EOS 500D ( T1i)
• 40D
• 50D
• Nikon D40

I know that in general, lenses are more important than the camera itself. I have some lenses that will work with a $10 adapter, but they don’t have autofocus, auto anything for that matter. In any case I’ve been looking on craiglist and ebay, and was waiting until after photokina to purchase anything, because there will undoubtedly be big announcements driving prices down. I’m not sure what direction to go, what exactly is a good deal, and what lenses would be good for a beginner. The video capabilities of the 500D are of course nice, but not necessary by any means. I’d be willing to pay somewhat more for them. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 01:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Aargh, no opinions here. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 01:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been debating the same question with myself for about 8 years lol... It ALL comes down to what you will use the camera for, how much you can afford and what features are important to you. dpreview.com is my fav site for drooling over the goodies coming out of that industry. Vespine (talk) 04:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the main reasons I chose a Nikon D50 over a EOS 300D some years ago is because the D50 fits in my hand better, whereas the 300D felt too cramped in my reasonably big hands. On the Nikon side there's also the D3100 which offers newer generation software and sensor. But in the end, you should really just go play with a few and see which one you like, which one you really want. The standard kit lens (18-55mm) from either company is excellent (especially for its price) and it should be enough 90% of the time. Any additional lenses will depend on what you plan to do: low light? (fast prime) birds? (long tele) portraits? (medium tele) close-ups? (macro). I'd advice against using manual focus lenses on low end cameras as it is quite difficult to focus. They do not have any focus aids that old SLRs used to have and it's often quite difficult to tell if it's focused properly or not. --antilived^{T | C | G} 07:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

From Canon EOS 500D: "For anybody buying their first DSLR the 500D is an easy recommendation but you might want to have a look at the Nikon D5000 as well. It comes with a similar feature set to the 500D ('only' 720P video though) and performs slightly better in low light" (the 500D can only record 1080p video at 20fps). decltype (talk) 08:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

If you're starting from scratch and don't have a lens collection, you have a fair amount of freedom to decide on Canon vs. Nikon. In my opinion Canon has better lenses but lags Nikon in cameras. Since camera bodies come and go but lenses are forever, I went with the lenses and have Canon equipment, assuming I'd upgrade bodies periodically. That hasn't happened yet, as I've preferred to spend money on other things, and I'm mostly happy with my XTi - although I'm looking for an excuse to get a 7D. Still, the differences between Nikon and Canon in optics are miniscule. Really, any of the last-but-one models will work fine for starting out, like an XSi or T1, or the Nikon equivalents. The more recent versions have a heavy emphasis on video and live view using the display rather than the viewfinder. I'd echo Antilived's advice on manual focus lenses with modern DSLRs - it's a nuisance to manually focus DSLRs due to the lack of a split focus in the viewfinder or other similar aid from manual SLR days. I only fall back on manual when the camera can't acquire a focus on a low-contrast or low-ilght subject, or, rarely, when it just won't focus on the object I want in focus. Newer cameras will have higher ISO ratings and will do better in low light, helping you to avoid having to buy expensive wide-aperture lenses. As for lenses, I shoot with a mid-range zoom 80% of the time, then a tele-zoom, and occasionally with an ultra-wide zoom. Your selections are all APS-C format - keep crop factors in mind. Acroterion _(talk) 21:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

How many biographies?

Wikipedia seems to have a biography on everyone in the news these days, as well as on every significant historical figure. What is the current count of biographies, and how many are of living people? Is the statistic kept anywhere on the web site? Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Category:Living people has 489,712 articles. MilborneOne (talk) 18:15, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

You have to remember though, the number of biographical articles are changing all the time, and some biographical articles might not be listed in the category MilborneOne mentions. Chevymontecarlo 18:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely not. All the notable dead people, for starters. Not everyone who merits a WP article, whether dead or alive, is or was a "significant historical figure", or would necessarily make the news. We have our own criteria for inclusion. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

It still would be very interesting to know approximately which percentage of people with articles are alive. Counting all entries in Category:people would include redundancies and also fictional sub-sub-categories, so that's not a very good approach. Counting all the articles under category:Deaths by year doesn't include those whose year of death isn't known (and also those who haven't been added to that category for random reasons, the same problem as with counting items in any category). Does anyone know whether anyone has gone through the trouble of making an estimate? (If there is an easy way to add and count all sub-categorized articles in Category:Births by year, then we might even be able to show the distribution of people born before vs after any desired cut-off year, or within any time period). ---Sluzzelin talk

WP:BIOG stats currently show 863,422 biographies on wikipedia. So perhaps 50% of biog articles are on the living. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

How could we find out how many of the articles in the bio category have date-of-death entries? We could sample those that don't to get a sense of how many of those ought to have one, and get a reasonable estimate from those numbers how many of them are actually still among the living. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I did a statistical analysis, and compiled a few others who did the same, here. I found about 23% of pages are biographies and 13% are of living persons. Geographical articles are the most common exclusive type (that results has been replicated in other samples too). Shadowjams (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The geography percentage has come down tremendously over time. A few years ago, clicking "Random article" on Wikipedia would get you a bot-generated article about a small town in America, derived from the US Census, about 75% of the time. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't found that to be the case recently, at least between 2008 and 2010. During that timeframe, an earlier analysis and my later one both found 17%. It'd be interesting to see numbers about earlier distributions though. Look at user:rambot for some interesting context on the geographic city additions too. Shadowjams (talk) 17:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Do Maltesers eat maltesers?

Are Maltesers available in Malta? 92.15.8.96 (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

They might if the weather weren't too 'ot. Insteadilet (I'm practising my Palin speak) Minstrels get my vote -because what do Minstrels do?!!!!--Aspro (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Which Palin, Michael or Sarah? (Can you see Malta from your house?) — Michael J 22:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

September 24

Miltiades in IPA

How would you write the Greek name Miltiades in IPA? Horselover Frost (talk · edits) 01:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

See here. Click "Show IPA."--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 04:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

That's assuming you are asking about how it is pronounced in English. It's different in Greek (and different again depending on whether you mean Ancient or Modern Greek). --ColinFine (talk) 15:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

dead horses

I heard recently that in Virginia horse country, when horses die they can be fed to the hounds and this process is called dedication. I have been around horses for many years in other parts of this country but never heard of this. Can someone find out more and let me know? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.45.105 (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a bit more information about your question? In what context, for example, did you hear of this? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 03:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

It would also be helpful to state whether you're asking whether this is a widespread practice. I mean, sure, you can feed a dead horse to some hounds; I'm sure it's happened at least once; it is unlikely that there's a Virginia law stopping you; but are you asking whether this happens all the time? Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

identify that thing

Good afternoon ,i will like to know your what you think about this item, what is it, from wear it was made and how old is it . it is metal yellow colour ,it is hand work.thank for your help.

PIC: http://img828.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=72217107.jpg

I don't know the answer I'm afraid, but you might like to know that "hand job" means something rather different in slang English... --Viennese Waltz 14:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

lol, wikt:hand job WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Did you find it in the US? How and where. The design reminds me of the style of the Anglo Saxon's. I could be just an old 20th century ink pot with a missing lid. You would be able to get more of it in focus if you manually set your EX-Z33 aperture smaller to increase the depth of field.--Aspro (talk) 15:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I find that thing in Lithuanian

It look like it might be Saxon (or Saksų in Lithuanian).Their art reached that part of Europe. If it is, it might be very old. Do you see the similarity in design style with this English example: Sutton Hoo. You need to ask experts so try sending a link to these photographs to your closest Museum of History. Please let us know what they say.--Aspro (talk) 16:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

It might also be of Norse origin, although granted the ornaments on the OP artifact is not as elaborate as the usual twined Viking Age style patterns, but it would be likely considering the geographic location. See for example this round box brooch from Gotland (or perhaps this one which has the same characteristic shape of the OP artifact). --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

That link stated Copper alloy with silver. The op images look like it could be that. Must be of good quality not to have gone crumbly cruddy black. England and Ireland (oh OK, Wales too) was blessed with gold but I think the Germanic tribes had more access to silver. Think I should have put that this style reached England rather than the other way around. Also, the images show remarkable definition for something only 5cm across. The alloy and workmanship suggests either something very modern or an artefact of great antiquity and of the highest metallurgical quality and craftsmanship. Possibly Norvegų and possible more than 1000 years old. He needs to consult an expert. Some governments may claim the object as their own, so who do we suggest he approaches? Oh, and any advances on an ink pot?--Aspro (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe u know what is that thing and where it's from?