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December 10

Strategic positions for a tattoo

Okay, so I've been meaning to get a tattoo done, but I'm not sure where to put it. I'm a 21 year old girl, in India. I've seen people get tattoos on their backs, shoulder blades, chests, stomachs, arms... I wear tshirts and jeans, mostly, but also dresses sometimes. Will it be odd if I had a tattoo on my arm? Will it conflict with the image of a petite girl in a party dress? Will getting a tattoo on my neck be offensive when I go to work in a corporate office? Will one on my shoulder blades go to waste because I don't wear shoulder baring clothing often? 223.235.46.179 (talk) 09:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have photographs taken of yourself in different clothes and different positions, then draw the tattoo on on your computer, see where it looks nice. HS7 (talk) 10:15, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some of your questions have rather subjective answers. We have no idea what a potential employer is going to think about you having a tattoo on your neck or any place else for many reasons. We have no idea where you intend on working, what the dress code is like there, how conservative the hiring manager is, or even what you plan to have tattooed on your body!

I work for a large multinational corporation which is fairly tolerant of different hair styles, looks, etc. and I know someone who has her entire arm sleeved with tattoos. She still wears long sleeve shirts even though the tattoos are of flowers and other "pretty" things and also everyone who has worked here more than a few years knows that she's tattooed since she used to not have the job she has now and at that time wore t-shirts.

You ask if having something on your shoulder blade would "go to waste" but we don't know what "a waste" is to you. Are you getting the tattoo simply to show other people? If so, then it might be a bit hard to show it off there. Or are you getting it just for you and you don't care what others think? If so, then the shoulder blade may be perfect. Dismas|^(talk) 11:29, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know a number of people (in the United States) who have tattoos on their shoulders. It's a nice option, because you can easily have it covered up if you need to, but you can also make it quite visible if you want as well. It becomes something you can accessorize with quite well. The fact that it isn't always visible can make it something special, as well. Anyway, all of this depends on the context, of course. In the United States there are some work environments that would never hire someone with a tattoo showing, but the vast majority don't care that much anymore, I don't think. I don't know the case in India. It might also depend on the tattoo's content. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why not try out some temporary tattoos first?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or, get a tattoo that looks exactly the same as the part of your body it is on, that way when you go to work, they will not notice it so much. HS7 (talk) 15:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It also depends on what the tattoo is of. A teddy bear on your ankle or a small butterfly on your shoulder could be acceptable in most circles, while a snake wrapped around your arm would not be. — Michael J 16:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly why a decision like this needs a lot of thought beforehand, so many options to consider. Though, I did read somewhere once that in India snake decorations are considered to ward off evil spirits, or some such. HS7 (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For your own sake, consider that, as you grow older, tattoos tend to droop and fade. I know it is hard to imagine when you are 21, but someday, if you are lucky, you will be 61 or 71. Try to imagine yourself as that older person, perhaps a grandmother, and whether you will still want a drooping, faded tattoo at that age. Tattoo removal is possible, but difficult, painful, and potentially scarring. Marco polo (talk) 02:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As with many permanent commitments in life, if you have doubts - don't. You are young and your feelings, your work, your social environment may change in the future and may make the decision, one way or the other, clearer for you. Richard Avery (talk) 08:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you two. What killjoys. A meaningful, significant, and tastefully chosen tattoo will continue to be as important to one as one wants it to be. I certainly recommend against silly looking ones, but tattoos are a very old tradition, and one need not necessarily spend all of one's decisions (especially one as relatively trivial as this one) worry about what one's 70-year-old future self might think... --Mr.98 (talk) 15:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They're indeed a very old tradition, but prominent tattoos have had a fairly defined sort of population of users. Of recent times, very prominent tatts have become a fashion item among people for whom fashion is important, and I'm sure many people who get one now do so purely because it's the fashion and all their friends are doing it, not because of any innate genetic drive that would have seen them getting one regardless of their peer group. Like any passing fashion fad, we look back and are shocked to think we could ever have been so crazy as to wear something like that or have our hair that way or whatever, but at least we can simply cease to do those things. Tattoos are much harder to eliminate from our lifestyles once they're there, and so I agree some thought more than "I want to do what all the other robots are doing" is necessary. Call me a killjoy too, if you like. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lord, who suggested they were part of an "innate genetic drive"? Straw man, much. Tattoos are not a passing fad. They've been pretty common amongst a wide variety of people for decades, and in some cultures, centuries. Maybe not in your social circle, or your country, but they are hugely prominent where I live. Let the OP decide if they want a tattoo or not. Let's stop showing our age by lecturing younger folks on how they should skate the straight and narrow. I'm not doubt biased on this point as my wife as a wonderful shoulder tattoo which she got quite a long time ago, and she loves it, it still looks great on her, and I don't anticipate any regrets on her part, certainly not on mine. It's deeply symbolic to her (it's in honor of a friend who died of AIDS), it's well-executed and simple, it's in a spot which is both easily concealable and displayable. The permanence and the pain associated with it were deeply important to her. It's a great conversation starter. It has not consigned her to a life of sadness or destitution; she's a well-educated professional who makes more money than I do. It makes her look a million times cooler than I ever will, and it's a great conversation starter. So ease up, gramps. ;-) --Mr.98 (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much everything you wrote confirmed what I said, Mr 98. Your wife's tattoo is "in a spot which is both easily concealable and displayable", the easily concealable bit being relevant since I was talking about "very prominent tattoos". I acknowledged in my first sentence that tattoos are "a very old tradition". The point I was making was that very prominent tattoos are now appearing on groups of people who would formerly have restricted themselves to very small and discrete ones, or, mostly, no tattoos at all. People in this group are doing it for no other reason than that the fellow members of their group are doing it and they want to fit in. This is the fashion fad I referred to. Maybe it hasn't reached your country yet. I do not resile from my advice to give tattoos more than a second's thought, because if you find they're not what you wanted after all, or you did it for the wrong reasons, they are difficult and painful to remove. If that doesn't bother you, please ignore what I said, young whippersnapper. By the way, I am not a grandfather. Not yet. Not as far as I know. No, I couldn't possibly be, since neither of my children has ever married. Not yet. Not as far as I know. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tattoos are indelible (excepting pain and laser). Being thrice+ your age I concluded that little else in life is.

Maybe some experiences (see pain and laser) are engraved more deeply than tattoos, but they are not superficial ornaments of ephemeral fashion. Personally, I rather wear my tattoos inside. My friends can see them. --Incognito.ergo.possum (talk) 21:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What mystifies me about tattoos is: why is there so little popularity for temporary bodyart? I mean, there are a few simple stick-on things used mostly by kids, and in some cultures there's henna, but walking down the street in the U.S. I don't think I ever see fashionable adults with such patterns. I'd think in this day and age it would be possible to produce very sophisticated temporary designs for all seasons and occasions. Wnt (talk) 21:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's plenty of temporary bodyart at sports events - face painting, temporary tattoos, etc. The tattoo culture is related to the piercing culture - the act of getting the object necessarily includes the pain that goes with it. Getting a temporary tattoo would be like getting a stick-on "piercing", or like wearing a clip-on tie. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do they really have to hurt? I'd think they could just mix in a little clove oil or comparable analgesic (aconite would be overkill ;) ). Wnt (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have contemplated super-gluing a silver ball (dragee) to my nose. Seems a lot less painful and permanent. But of course the permanence is part of the "statement", as is the pain to some extent. It is also a rite of passage, a symbol of belonging, as mutilation of various forms has often been (see Yakuza for example). Rich Farmbrough, 13:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

I have a few tattoos. I made the decision for each one through the same process:

Decide what you want.
Decide where you want it. Make sure you have really thought it through.
This is the crucial step: Forget all about it for an entire year.
Go back and revisit the idea. If you still like it as much as you did a year before, do it.

I would note that when I got my first tattoo the guys in the shop all commented on how they had covered up their first tattoos because they rushed into them and got something stupid that rapidly lost its charm. A friend of mine got the Misfits skull done on his leg by a home tattoo artist using a knife and a pen during a party. Not to happy with that decision as he got older. (on the other hand I once got a piercing while drunk in a bar using a safety pin "sanitized" with a lighter. That didn't turn out so well either...) Actually, while we are on that subject, make sure you go to a reputable tattoo shop and don't be afraid to ask what kind of sterilization procedures they use. If they are any good they will be more than happy to brag about how careful they are. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for books

I found a couple of childrens' books I thought my brother might like for christmas, but having decided to wait until closer to the time before buying them, I now cannot find them anywhere, or even remember exactly what they were called. One was a book of how things work, with pictures of cave men and mammoths demonstrating scientific principles and such like, and the other was pretty much all you ever need to know about maths, starting with basic addition and subtraction and moving all the way through to complex secondary school stuff and real world economics, and it had a picture of Carol Vorderman on the front. Any idea what either of these was called or where I can buy them, I tried our book shops with no luck.

HS7 (talk) 11:11, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the maths book had Vorderman on the cover, chances are that she is credited as the author, so a search on Amazon might find that one (other online stores exist), e.g. this. The other one might be this?--Michig (talk) 11:20, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's the mammoth book, I'm sure of it. The other, though, I can't tell, wouldn't want to buy what turns out to be the wrong one. HS7 (talk) 11:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This book seems close to your Vorderman description, but it doesn't have a picture of her on the front cover. Deor (talk) 12:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

December 11

OLEST MG TD

WHAT CHASSIS NUMBER IS THE OLDEST MG TD STILL IN EXSISTENCE?68.192.210.114 (talk) 03:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Say again, I'm a bit deaf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.153.242 (talk) 11:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I found some anecdotal evidence that might help here. The MG TD was first produced in 1949, wearing chassis number 'TD0251'. Two cars were made in 1949, with production really getting going in 1950. Both 1949 cars were RHD, made for the UK market. [This web forum] suggests that the car found its way to the US, namely Washington state, at some point, before returning to the UK around 1989. It was sold and rebuilt around that time, but I don't have any information following that. However, if it was rebuilt and (as seems likely) the history as the first TD was recognised by the owner, it seems likely that TD0251 still exists somewhere. It would then, obviously, be the oldest in existence. By the way, the chassis number 251 was used throughout the 50s for the first MG of any series. It comes from the MG factory's telephone dialling code - Abingdon 251.
Finally, it's considered bad etiquette to use ALL CAPS in writing on the web, since it looks like you are shouting. There is normally a light on the keyboard to indicate if you are using all capital letters. If you press the 'Caps Lock' key (normally found immediately left of the 'A' key, it will go out, and you will be typing in more friendly lower case. You can always use the 'Shift' key (normally just below Caps Lock) to produce a single capital when needed. Thanks!
Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Skype

I am thinking of creating a Skype account, but before I do, I have a couple of questions regarding how the system works. Signing in, they ask for my full name and warn that anyone can access this information. Does that mean that anyone with the program that knows my name could look me up? How much of my own activity on the program could they see if they did that? Would they then be able to see lists of who else I have been talking to and so on? Then, it asks me to create a username as well, would I be right in thinking that this has to be unique, that I could not just use for example my first name, if someone else already uses that name? I'm also wondering what it would look like, would my name, email address and such like be displayed prominently for all to see?

148.197.80.214 (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "name" thing is how you appear in the public directory. I can't see any stipulation in the Skype terms of service that says this has to be your real name. So if you want people to be able to look you up, use your real name, and if you actively don't, use a pseudonym - you can always tell friends your skype name and they can talk directly to that, without going through the directory. The username ("skype name") has to be unique - it's this that really identifies your account. The only thing that people can see is your available/away/notAvailable status, which I think is visible only to people you've agreed to add to your contacts list (and you can configure settings for that). It says on the create-an-account page "Note: no-one can see your email address.". No, people can't see who you've been calling. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:39, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody can see your email address unless you set your settings that you want to. HyperStudent (talk) 22:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As an observation, a degree at minimum of pseudonymity would seem to be mandatory for many people: otherwise, only one person whose real full name was, say, John Smith, would be able to have a Skype account. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.13 (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Website contains spelling mistakes

Take a look at this website. There are some spelling mistakes contained in this information website. http://cuip.uchicago.edu/wit/2000/teams/whales/generalwhaleinfo.html HyperStudent (talk) 22:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How am I supposed to correct the spelling mistakes or let the owner know if there is no contact us? HyperStudent (talk) 22:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You aren't. Anyway it is an 11-year-old website created by what appears to be high school students. I doubt anybody cares much about it at this point. It's just one of many not very useful pages on the internet. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disturbingly, it was apparently created by teachers: [1]. If you found something like that elsewhere though, you can often email webmaster [at] <website>.com to get in touch with whoever maintains the site. SmartSE (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you see, I just counted seven spelling mistakes and I am using this great website for a school project. I need to cite my information and I cant cause my teacher will see that website has spelling mistakes. HyperStudent (talk) 23:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the information is good, but the spelling is not, it's academically rigorous to use it and when quoting typos to use the word sic in square brackets, like this:

Some modern historians do not agree: "the use of primary sauces [sic] is flawed" (Badlyspelledsource, Jones et al, 1975, p.57)

Hope that helps --Dweller (talk) 17:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. But there is still one problem. What I've been trying to basically say is that I want to edit the website but I can't! Please explain to me in simple words. HyperStudent (talk) 22:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, you can't edit it. As Dweller says, your teacher should not have a problem with you quoting content with spelling mistakes as long as you put [sic] after the mistake--Jac16888 ^Talk 23:02, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there has to be better works about Whales to use for information for a project. Why not check out the citations at our article for a starter? He iro 07:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Im not allowed using Wikipedia. HyperStudent (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

December 12

Buying stuff on the internet from Czechoslovakia for delivery to the UK?

Will a customs charge, payable upon delivery, apply for items valued in excess of £15 (or whatever the figure is now) if ordered from Czechoslovakia? I'm not sure which countries this applies to these days. Thanks. --95.148.105.142 (talk) 07:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it says you are ordering from Czechoslovakia, you should be skeptical. That country doesn't exist. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Czech Republic and Slovakia. The two countries may have different arrangements. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both are in the EU so goods can be imported without any customs duty.[2][3] Note that different rules may apply to alcohol, tobacco, fuel oil, and certain other products, particularly if you're importing them for commercial purposes. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Phone behavior

I've noticed that every night at 12:49 AM my cellphone will light up its front screen as if I'm receiving a text- but no text comes. Why is it doing this? It's a Verizon phone. 184.98.169.135 (talk) 07:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have you contacted your provider? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have the phone set to back up its contact list? Dismas|^(talk) 11:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My Nokia lights up at seemingly random intervals; I just assume it's doing some sort of checking or testing. However, it also lights up briefly when it's finished charging, so if you charging it at the same time every night, that might account for the behaviour.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked your phone alarms or alerts? You may have some alerts set for dates. My phone used to have one for pay day, and it would light up at midnight. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:44, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Metric cooking measurements...

Imperial cooking measurements like teaspoon and tablespoon are attached to discrete volumes, but when I cooked a cake recipe the other day that was using metric measurements (yay!) I got a bit confused. It called for 235ml of vegetable oil and 250g of flour. I had a measuring scoop denoted as being 120ml in volume. What's with the flour? Was I supposed to weigh that on a triple beam balance? Grams are a unit of mass, not volume, unless we're assuming everything has a density of 1 like water. How do you metric chefs do it? The Masked Booby (talk) 12:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You weigh it on scales. Try googling "kitchen scales". Even Americans use weights for some ingredients (e.g. meat). --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) <Sarcasm>We have this amazing new invention called a kitchen scale. Tried one sometime, you won't believe the wonders they work.</sarcasm> I don't know what you do in China and in fact I'm surprised you use imperial measurements in China, but personally, I've never understood the American idea of using volume for non-powder solid stuff like butter. However whether you use volume, mass or a combination of both varies between country more so then between metric and imperial. I believe in parts of continential Europe they use weight for nearly everything (except possibily spoon size quantities), at least when baking. In Malaysia, NZ and Australia a combination of both is common, weight for things like butter and in some cases powders like flour, volume for liquids and in some cases powders like flour as well as for small amounts (spoon sized). In all cases metric is used, although in the NZ, Australia and Malaysia case this includes stuff like the metric cup and metric tablespoons/teaspoons, which particularly in the case of the tablespoon does vary. (As said in the US they seem to use volume for everything.)

Personally, I prefer to use weight for nearly everything except for spoon size quantities, since I have a cheap electronic scale with 1 gram resolution and probably close to that in accuracy (based on comparisons with stuff weighed on store commercial scales) that I purchased from eBay that came from China for under IIRC US$6.00. And using weight is more accurate for things like flour because of the possibility of it settlings/varying depending on how well packed it is although I don't tend to be that fussy on quantities anyway. I have cookbook which gives volume to weight conversions for common stuff you cook with like flour, sugar (varies between type of course) etc which I use when the quantity is specified in volume. I'm sure you can find something similar online.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A kitchen scale is the obvious answer here, but I actually also have a glass cooking measure (kinda like the one showed here) that has different ingredients (flour, rice, sugar, water) listed in both imperial and metric on the side. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you do in China -- Chinese don't measure anything, they just cook. The Masked Booby (talk) 13:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean that none of these [4] [5] [6] were intended for people from China and these books [7] d[8] [9] were either not intended for people from China despite being published in simplified Chinese (and from what I can see from companies from the PRC) or perhaps were but don't give any idea of quantities and instead either just include pictures of what you can make perhaps with a list of ingredients and then tell you to just cook and hope for the best? Nil Einne (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and [10] [11] despite the labelling and pictures weren't intended as kitchen scales or weren't intended for the Chinese market, despite the printing on the scales? (I'm not even convinced scales like the one I got such as [12] are 100% intended for the export market, from memory the one I got did come with instructions in both Chinese and English.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BTW I just noticed Cooking weights and measures discusses this briefly. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any proper recipe will tell you whether to use sifted, lightly packed, tightly packed, or mounded amounts so no difficulties arise. Don't know why y'all insist on weighing everything instead of learning how to cook. Seriously, though, about what decade did weighing replace measuring in some countries? Rmhermen (talk) 16:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Who said anything about not learning to cook properly? If you're making something you've never made before and following a recipe rather then personal instructions, measuring whether by weight or volume is generally helpful to make sure it turns out right. If it's something which you can modify as you're cooking then it's easy to adjust to taste. This isn't usually an option while baking, and although the texture and viscosity and feel of the uncooked mixture may give some clue, this isn't always easy to tell if you have little experience with whatever your cooking and a difference of 20% or so can sometimes make a big difference to how the product turns out.

I've only made bread a few times but from what I've read, e.g. I believe it's even more important to be close. In fact from what I've heard e.g. [13] [14] [15] Baker percentage even professional bakers in the US usually weigh ingredients nowadays. Even when you're making something you've made a lot before, it's usually helpful to measure stuff in some way even if you will adjust later as necessary. And with a digital scale, weighing is not only more accurate but often from my experience is easier, faster and results in less cleanup since you can weigh directly in the mixing bowl.

I don't know the answer to the later question but I would guess when kitchen scales could be produced relatively cheaply? According to the above link, precise measurements began to be introduced in recipes in the late 19th century, it seems possible by this time kitchen scales could already be produced fairly cheaply so perhaps they never really used volume in places like Europe where it's preferred now?

P.S. If you measure the flour after sifting, this sounds like an even more annoying thing to do to me. If not, I don't get how a 'proper recipe' can help you with the fact your flour will settle over time.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you are baking properly you will sift the flour before using regardless of how you measure. Following the recipe to use 1/2 cup of lightly packed brown sugar, and 2 cups of sifted flour and a heaping tablespoon of baking soda gives you your measurements without the need for weighing. I think you will find that scales (or exclusive weight-measurements) are more recent. I see UK cookbooks using cups in the 1960s and a Delia Smith recipe from the 1970s using a rounded tablespoon of one item and grams of another. Rmhermen (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(E/C) Cooking weights and measures doesn't really seem to answer that question - it claims that informal measurements (a leg of lamb, a cupful of lentils, a pinch of salt, etc.) were used in most cookbooks throughout most of history, and that the modern US system dates back to Boston Cooking-School Cook Book in 1896. According to apothecaries' system, though, masses have been used in medical recipes for millennia. As to why we 'insist on weighing everything' - modern digital scales have a tare button, which allows you to weigh something in any convenient container. For example, you can directly weigh different ingredients into a bowl or pan, instead of transferring them via a measuring cup. Having to 'tightly pack' things into measuring cups also sounds a bit awkward. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Professional cooks tend to measure things with their eyes a lot of the time. After you've been in kitchens for a while you come to learn what certain things should look and feel like in your hands. Except when baking, which is exactly why I loathe baking. If you add 1/8 teaspoon too much of something to a soup, it is unlikely that the whole soup is ruined. If you add 1/8 teaspoon too much baking powder to your scones.... yep, ruined. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When did cooks start using weighing? By the 13th century if this cookbook is to be believed. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When one is cutting steaks, making burger patties, or other things that are sold as being a specific weight it is of course important to be fairly accurate, but as I said after a while most cooks can do it by hefting the item, and maybe throwing it on a scale just to double check. Obviously, a burger or a pizza dough can always be made heavier or lighter, but if you can't eyeball the weight of a steak or other filet you are going to waste a lot of food trying to perfect your technique. Not that this really applies to home cooks who are more free to be creative when trying to correct an error. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Following up the IP on cookbooks. Connell and Irving Class Structure in Australian History claim pretty explicitly that mass cookbooks were part of Fordist labour discipline in the household, supporting hegemonic power, and stealing traditional working class culture from workers. This can be seen in fourteen up in the 1970s where the domestic kitchen is inflicted by the state apparatus (schooling here) as part of labour discipline and domestic reproduction. Cookbooks: all about class warfare. Fifelfoo (talk) 20:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And gender, Fifelfoo, class yes, and gender! You are referring to the domestic labour debate and hope you have read Rosalind Coward on women and food. Alternatively, home cooking is self-provisioning, arguably interstitial practice a la Gibson-Graham and John Holloway. After guerilla gardening, guerilla cooking. Anyway, 70 mph winds are forecast here in Britain, so I am thinking about you having Christmas dinner on the beach and hoping you don't get sand in the turkey and sprouts. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but you have to remember that by the 70s, what was left of working class cookery after the industrial revolution had been ravaged by the deprivation of the austerity years. Both my mother and my grandmother were heavily reliant on cookery lessons at school, and closely following recipes exactly, because there weren't the ingredients to spare to allow them to experiment, to have a go at cooking with their mothers, or any of that. They couldn't afford to cook something that didn't work. I'm puzzled by Beeblebrox's claim that 1/8 tsp too much baking powder would ruin scones. The smallest batch of scones I've ever made (and that was eaten so quickly it was barely worth making) is 8 scones, and 1/8 tsp too much baking powder would do nothing as dramatic as ruin that. If you're making a normal quantity for a hungry family, you could add a whole extra tsp or so and it would do no harm. The problem with scones is usually not enough rise! 86.164.79.174 (talk) 21:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right, usually they are flat and dense. So you may want to add more baking powder to make them fluffier. That might work, or you might ruin them. It was meant as a general example of how volatile baking can be. (which is why I hate doing it and probably why my example is less than accurate) I recall one kitchen I worked in where too much baking powder was added to a large fritatta which we would cook every Sunday in a casserole style. When it emerged from the oven it stuck up a good six inches out of the hotel pan it was in and had acquired a distinct bluish hue. After some discussion of covering it with gravy or trying to obscure it in some other way we eventually elected to throw the whole thing away and start over, wasting an immense quantity of eggs, meat and vegetables in the process. Luckily the chef hadn't shown up yet and we managed to get it out the back door before he arrived. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But I've never known anyone ruin scones by adding a tiny amount too much baking powder. The actual mistakes are generally overworking the pastry or rolling it too thin, neither of which is about quantities of ingredients: normal baking simply isn't that volatile. I assume you seriously screwed up the frittata by something dramatic like using tablespoons instead of teaspoons. Scones are tricky mostly because newbies don't believe that you have to pat it out to an inch thick, with hardly any working, and cut it quickly, and brush the tops and get it in the oven as quickly as possible. Newbies roll it thin, making biscuits, or take ages and knead the dough. I have never known home baking be sufficiently volatile that a fraction of a tsp makes a real difference. 86.164.79.174 (talk) 21:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Itsmejudith, I have a tendency to subsume gender that I need to interrogate. I will follow Coward on this. I'm squarely with Selma James and Mariarosa Dalla Costa: there is a circuit of labour power that flows through the household. But now I have Coward and Gibson-Graham and Holloway to follow up. Australia in many ways was the Cockagne of the 20th century working class diet—with exceptions prior to 1910, 1920–1940, and 1978ish–2000. Five decades of lamb roast, meat three times a day, and scones that rose in line with "consumer price" inflation. For IP86.164… one of the problems of finding the continuity of proletarian cookery is the repeated discontinuities of the proletariat. Leaving aside internal divisions (as bad as subsuming gender), when family continuity is broken by three or four reconfigurations of capital and class over 200 years, this means that the method of subsistence is forced into discontinuities. I always loved my mother's mass-market schools-oriented cookbooks (one explicitly a 4th Form Girls Cookery Book); but, the practice of her cooking was haphazard and far more successful. Whew! Time to go searching for articles as a result of this discussion! Fifelfoo (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with 86.** IP, have never got the quantity of baking powder wrong with scones. How quickly you get them cut out and in the oven is much more crucial. I baked scones for French people, they were flat by English standards, but the French thought they were fine because they understood they were a vehicle for butter or cream (creme fraiche, missed out on clotted cream) and home made jam. They liked the cheese scones and fruit scones too. Basically, they liked anything new and containing sugar or salt. @Fifelfoo, will be interested to follow up discussion of theory and/or recipes. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, 235 ml is exactly one US cup, so I'd say that your recipe is only a partial metric conversion. --Carnildo (talk) 01:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obsolete typography

I'm looking for some obsolete symbols, as illustrated in the image. The text comes from an eighteenth century printing of a seventeenth century book, but the symbols are drawn from a sixteenth century work, so may have been obsolete even then. Obviously supported Unicode would be nice, but mathml might be an alternative. Rich Farmbrough, 14:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

The thing that looks like a 3 is probably Ezh (letter). I found this using shapecatcher, where you (slowly) draw the glyph with the mouse, and it finds all the unicode glyphs it knows about that it feels resemble your drawing. I've not tried the others there, but you can give that a try. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great start, it's earlier than IPA of course, I transliterated it as Z, and the 16th century book is black letter so a tailed z (ℨ)from fraktur looks like the best one for that symbol. Rich Farmbrough, 14:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

ʑ will suffice for the loop tailed "z", that just leaves the thing that looks like φ which I shall assume is φ, and the squiggle. Rich Farmbrough, 15:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

I guess the question is whether you're simply trying to roughly reproduce the appearance of the table in characters, in which case any glyph that looks like its counterpart will do, or whether you're trying to actually use the correct glyph. If it's the latter case, I'd try on the math reference desk - I've had good results there with a couple of people who had books about the history of mathematical notations, which might very well cover these symbols too. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 15:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer the latter, but will accept the former.

I'll do that., I think the squiggle is an "ss" ligature of some kind. Rich Farmbrough, 15:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Your squiggle appears in one of the magickal alphabets, but I can't find a font of any kind that supports it (so far). Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah great. I had checked the astrological signs, since I had a vague recollection, but hadn't got as far as Enochian or magickal stuff. Rich Farmbrough, 15:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

The first three symbols are evolved versions of 'r', 'z' and 'c', standing for 'res' (Latin: 'the thing'), 'zensus' (square), and 'cubus' (cube). It was a very common algebraic notation in use from the early 1500s through the early 1600's, and a transitional step from the "ancient" way of spelling out equations with full words, to modern highly abbreviated notation.

They do not originate in magickal alphabets and they were not introduced by Recorde, as the system appears to be of German/Italian origin. Recorde was not even the first to stack them. Michael Stifel uses the same symbols in Arithmetica integra in 1544, including 'zz' and 'zc' to denote fourth and sixth powers.--Itinerant1 (talk) 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And the only other unusual symbol, denoting the fifth power, looks like a Long s (for 'sursolid'). So, in the notation of the first image, 'z'=2, 'c'=3, 's'=5, 'Bs'=7, 'Cs'=11, 'Ds'=13, etc. The second image is the same except the fifth power is 'sz', the seventh power is 'Bsz', etc. --Itinerant1 (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the use of the alphabet to denote successive primes from 5/7 (arguably there is an implicit A) is slightly amusing in what appears at first sight to be an attempt to create a universal nomenclature of powers. Further thought, though, indicates that this was a practical system, the names and abbreviations could be used to lay out an order of operations to create the powers or extract the roots of even some very unlikely indices. Even our modern entities such as the petabyte would be ZZZZSSSS(2) (to mix notations). Rich Farmbrough, 12:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Oh that's interesting. (We didn't suppose that they originated in magical alphabets, which are, I believe, far more modern, but merely that they might generate suitably glyphs, derived from the same source, or not.) I'll follow up the Stifel stuff later. Thanks. Rich Farmbrough, 12:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

You might go even further back. Look at this reproduction from the manuscript Coss by Christoph Rudolff (1525): [16]. Notice the similarity between the symbol for the cube and the blackletter 'z'. That's another place to look for the glyphs.--Itinerant1 (talk) 12:54, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And also google "Alte Deutsche Schrift" and "Gothic handwriting".--Itinerant1 (talk) 13:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely fascinating! Rich Farmbrough, 15:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Hell, am i so old? That "thing that looks like a 3" was how I was taught to write capital "Z" in joined-up writing. I must have been 10 years old at the time, so 1972.

Phew, I'm not obsolete. Its still taught nowadays. See here. That only shows the "little letters" but the capital Z is just the same.

Cars in Bangladesh

Which cars of which automobile manufacturer do Bangladeshi regular drive with like Toyota, KIA or others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.23.209 (talk) 18:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Automotive industry in Bangladesh indicates that Mitsubishiand TagAZ build cars there, and that there are several motorcycle manufacturers. Unfortunately our article on Transport in Bangladesh is of rather poor quality and does not even mention road transport. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most Bangladeshis don't own a car. --Soman (talk) 13:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New York

Wife and I are spending six days in Hilton Times Square on a room only basis next year. Can anyone give us a rough idea of costs of food in the. city. We are modest eaters!85.211.158.57 (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The whole thing of NY is that it has it all, but you have to know where to look. You could spend $5 for food from a street vendor, or $150 a plate for fancy-schmancy food, or anything in between. I would urge you to be adventurous, seek out ethnic enclaves and you can find flavors form around the world without paying tourist prices. Finding an actual New Yorker to advise you can help immensely in this regard. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your IP suggests you're in the UK, so we can meaningfully compare NYC to London. As a general rule, like-for-like, eating out in the US is cheaper (and more commonplace) than in the UK. New York, like other large metropolises, is probably a bit more expensive than poor rural places, but not hugely so. Manhattan, being the business, tourism, and retail centre is a bit more expensive still. But there are plenty of ordinary working people even in Manhattan, and plenty of inexpensive places to eat out. Naturally you want to stay away from the high-end restaurants and you'll quickly spot the overpriced tourist-trap places. New York is replete with ethnic food options so diverse that it makes the Edgeware Road look like Midsomer, and the stereotypical american fast foods (burgers, pizza, hotdogs, cheese-steaks, deli sandwiches) are usually very good (in an "oh my aorta" kind of way); street vendors of such are usually good, but avoid the big chains you're familiar with (curiously a US Big Mac is a vile grey horror even worse than a UK Big Mac) - you can get the same things better and with a much more pleasant, authentic environment in a little diner or corner deli. If you're on a budget, I really recommend one of the Lonely Planet or Rough Guide city-guide books for NYC - they're good for finding little places you'd not think to look. When in doubt, eat where cops eat; I've twice found myself in an unfamiliar neighbourhood and asked a cop (once a street cop, once a transit cop) and both times they steered me really good places that I'd never have thought to go into otherwise. 87.115.92.26 (talk) 02:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are chain restaurants a step up from fast food places, and the prices actually overlap between the two. I often go to Outback Steakhouse, here in Detroit, and, if I share the main course, skipping the appetizers, drinks, and dessert, we can get out of there for under $5 each, 15% tip included, and without getting too much fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, sodium, and calories. (Dinner is a bit more than breakfast or lunch.) This might not sound like enough food, but keep in mind how huge serving sizes are here. So, for a modest meal, I suggest you try this approach. StuRat (talk) 03:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the average Briton is unprepared for the magnitude of US portions, or for the bottomless coffee and fountain soda. I should have mentioned too that eating out for breakfast is much more common in the US than the UK (and so there are breakfast-food places and diners have a proper breakfast menu). You're quite right about the chain restaurants, but it'd be bit disappointing if someone travelled all the way to NY and spent their time eating at Red Lobster or Dennys - not because they're bad (because in fairness they aren't) but because they're just a bit dull. 87.115.92.26 (talk) 03:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To back-translate for the OP: US chain restaurants (like Olive Garden, Dennys, Applebees, Red Lobster, IHOP, Outback) are a bit like Harvester, Brewer's Faire, or TGI Friday's. 87.115.92.26 (talk) 04:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

TGI Friday's is also in the US. StuRat (talk) 23:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know some Canadians (including myself) who specifically seek out chain restaurants in the US that aren't here (or are rare here), because it's a cultural experience unto itself. I love eating at IHOP, TGI Fridays, and Jack-in-the-Box when I'm in the States, not because the food is particularly great, but just because it's something different. It's easy to find a small ethnic restaurant in my city, but a TGI Fridays is a rare thing that I've only ever seen south of the border. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Get a Zagats or Lonely Planet style guide book. There's tons of great stuff that's not anymore than London. In fact with exchange rates as they are... you may find New York cheap. Shadowjams (talk) 05:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you really want to eat cheap in NY, head to Chinatown and get some bao and jiaozi. There are a number of great places to get delicious steamed buns and dumplings down there. These things can be terrifyingly cheap ($3 for enough for two), to the point where I can scarcely imagine how they can make money. I gave this advice to a friend of mine and he hardly ate anything else. --Daniel 07:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

About nine years ago, I went to New York to hear my brother's orchestra perform at Carnegie Hall and stayed for less than two days. But eating a variety of meals in Manhattan from the Port Authority Bus Terminal to the Carnegie Deli, the only disappointing meal was from a multi-state chain (a fruit salad in Union Square from I think Café La France). All of the other food was great. ¶ Although I was born in London, it's been decades since I last visited, but a late Irish-Swedish-American friend who'd never visited London completely revised his negative opinion of English food after staying there for a week or two in 1999. I think the reason is the same for both cities: the competition caused by waves of new immigrants. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not exactly a ringing endorsement for English food if the immigrants brought their own food, and thus improved the dining scene. StuRat (talk) 03:29, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(1) By that logic one could say the same of New York food; (2) One of George Orwell's most celebrated essays was In Defence of English Cooking (publisher's extract here.) —— Shakescene (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

US food tends to take the "melting pot" approach. That is, they start with ingredients from all over and then "Americanize" them. For example, the hot dog started off as a German sausage, but putting it on a bun with chili, ketchup, mustard, onions, etc., was first done in the US. Another example is pizza, which started off Italian (although the tomatoes came from the Americas), but in the US it was changed to add any combo of toppings you want, and delivery was added. StuRat (talk) 23:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for all this, useful splendid stuff, but now can I ask a more difficult question, what would you suggest as a daily budget for two modest eaters meals?85.211.158.57 (talk) 08:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lonely Planet gives advice.[17] They suggest $3 for breakfast, lunch a sandwich for $6-$7, and the cheapest dining out sub-$10 or $10-15 for a midrange dinner. So that would make $20-$25 per person per day, plus snacks and drinks. If you buy food from stores rather than eating out, it'll be cheaper. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is way too low. Coffee at Starbucks is gonna be about $3 per person. You're not going to get breakfast for that unless you're really a local. The only local advice I can give you is don't ever eat near Time Square. It's all tourist trap around. Shadowjams (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While I also think $3 breakfast is too low, you could get a full breakfast meal off the value menu at Denny's for it. No need to pay that much just for coffee. Rmhermen (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Including tax and tip ? I'm a bit skeptical. StuRat (talk) 23:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon my impertinence, Shadowjams, but how come a local doesn't know it's Times Square (named after The New York Times)? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 18:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC) [reply]

The oddity is that Time Square is a redirect created over 6 years ago. The history of the editor on that item is also curious. Maybe they thought it was named for magazine instead of the newspaper. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem that odd - redirects from common or likely misspellings are useful and widespread. Warofdreams talk 14:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not too hard to eat well but inexpensively in NYC. There are plenty of diner-type places that serve good American comfort food or what not for reasonable prices. There's a burger joint on Lexington, whose name I can't recall, that I like to patronize when I'm in the city, but it's not unique. It's not a crummy fast-food place like McDonald's. You can pay $16 for a genuine New York corned beef sandwich at the Carnegie Deli, or you can go to the Hello Deli nearby and get a great corned beef sandwich for 1/3 the price (not many seats though). Of course, I'm the kind of person who's happy with sandwiches and simple stuff. You can also dine for cheap in Chinatown, but when I tried that I got super sick, or ill as you'd say. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The advice comes (thick and fast), rather as I like my soup. Many thanks to all for the above; any more advice always welcome. Regards. 85.211.148.143 (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May sound like a help desk problem, but I don't think it is

A few minutes ago, I went to edit this page and got the blocked IP page with the message you get explaining that your ISP is blocking Wikipedia and so your IP is blocked to avoid vandalism because everyone goes through a proxy. It suggested I go through the secure server, and sure enough that had no problem. However, I hadn't heard that BT was blocking any of Wikipedia at the moment, and can't find a mention anywhere. Also, it seemed to say I had an IP that started 198 or 176 or something, which isn't what it says now: surely switching to the secure server wouldn't change my IP address, and I'd be surprised if it rotated in that time? And surely I'd have had to go to a proxy to find myself editing through one?

So, clearly I'm more confused about this than I thought I was, but my main question is whether BT is blocking any part of Wikipedia at the moment. 86.164.79.174 (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BT is doing something weird, routing a proportion of their customers through one (or a few) IPs. We don't know why. It's discussed here. Strictly we're anon-blocking those addresses, because they've been used by vandals (this is inevitably what happens when many people are funnelled through a small number of IP addresses). -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's very helpful. I understand much better what is happening now, although (like everyone else) the why is still baffling! 86.164.79.174 (talk) 22:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we persuade BT to implement XFF? Rich Farmbrough, 12:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]

December 13

History of Rome as a City

I am looking for an English-language book about the history of Rome, as a city, from earliest times to the Renaissance. For example, the size/nature of population through the ages, the number, type and state of buidings, aquedaucts, bridges, etc. I am particularly interested in the change in the city over the centuries, not the state of the city at a specific period of time, such as at the height of the Roman empire. Although obviously it cannot be totally avoided, the history of Rome as the capital of an empire/seat of the Papacy is secondary - there are numerous books about that (and I have plenty!). Can anyone suggest anything? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callerman (talk • contribs) 03:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The art historian/critic Robert Hughes recently produced a book called Rome which offers a cultural history from the Roman empire to the present day.[18][19] Hughes is an excellent writer on art and architecture, and though I've not read this book, I'm sure it's worth a read. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some of what you're after will be adequately covered by a reasonably good tourist guide book, like the Rough Guide series. --Dweller (talk) 17:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Robert Hughes book generally gets poor reviews for the first 200 pages - basically covering the period I am most interested in. There is a similar book by Christopher Hibbert which gets better reviews - I'll have a look at that. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callerman (talk • contribs) 02:38, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does everyone find alcohol good?

Sorry if this question sounds stupid, but do all human beings find alcohol "good"?

When I drink alcohol I find there's nothing "good" about it at all. Beer tastes like barley water to me. I've tried both VOSP and XO and they both tastes like organic solvents. Me and family has never been part of a religion that forbids alcohol, so it's not the taboo factor. With respect to food I'd say my tastes are perfectly normal. What everyone else finds delicious I find delicious as well, so I don't think it's a physiological anomaly with my taste buds.

Is there a name for my condition other than "unable to taste alcohol"?99.245.35.136 (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Finding alcohol 'good' or 'tasty' is as subjective as finding any other food tasty, or anything else nice, good or bad for that matter. You're a perfectly normal person in this respect. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alcohol is like most other acquired tastes, in that exposure can create a growing appreciation. It's not a coincidence that many acquired tastes involve chemicals that are psychoactive, like tobacco, coffee, and beer. The taste of concentrated ethanol is almost never itself pleasurable. Some people sip pure vodka, which is close, but I doubt many would do so if it wasn't intoxicating too. Beer and wines get into the borderline territory, imho. there's a broader point too about how tastes evolve. Children tend to crave nutrient dense foods a lot more than adults... and also tend to shun bitter foods more acutely. That may have an evolutionary basis. Similarly, pregnant women often report cravings for specific foods, and some of those cravings may have basis in subconscious recognition that a certain nutrient is missing. Shadowjams (talk) 06:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the record I personally dislike the taste of alcohol, which I find very strong, overpowering anything else you try to mix it with. I gather this is an unusual position too. HS7 (talk) 09:17, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hard telling how usual or unusual, but I'm with you on that. Generally I don't like alcohol at all, although there are certain beers and wines I can tolerate. The average drinker seems to like some stuff and not necessarily others, and obviously every drinker is different. Maybe it has to do with body chemistry as well as acquired tastes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you want more personal anecdotes.... there are certain beers I think are excellent from a taste perspective. As for a nationally distributed American beer, Sam Adams is one of the most consistently interesting breweries in my book. Sierra Nevada is a close second. After that, there are a few dozen breweries spread around North America, with a startling amount in Colorado, that are downright amazing. The American craft brew scene has exploded and there's a huge community built around craft brewing, homebrewing, and the general gastronomy snobishness movement. Like most beverages created by microorganisms, there are some subtle, weird, and intriguing flavors created in the process, and if they don't kill you you'll be certain some culture will find them interesting. If those chemicals also happen to make you feel good (psychoactive), then it's not surprising trends will evolve around them.

If you don't get a particular buzz off of alcohol that's absolutely fine, maybe even a good thing. It is a powerful substance; certainly there have been plenty of problems caused by addiction to it. You certainly shouldn't feel like you're missing something. There are different individual responses to things like this. Some people like them, some don't, some are compelled to them, others can take them or leave them. If you're concerned purely about taste though (as your original questioned asked), I think the acquired taste explanation is the most useful. Shadowjams (talk) 12:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Different taste perceptions and physical reactions to alcohol can - to summarise from several of the posts above - be due to the effects of ageing (body chemistry changes through childhood and adolescence through to adulthood); to an individual's conditioning through exposure or "acquiring the taste"; and to genetic variations that can be evident as trends in populations. This last is mentioned in our article Alcohol tolerance, and may reflect differential microevolution due to differing lengths of its availability (in significant quantities) to different populations/cultures, much as in Lactase persistence. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.63 (talk) 12:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since you are apparently familiar with the taste of various organic solvents, but dislike barley water, I think you defy classification. 81.131.57.95 (talk) 15:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I remember initial sips of beer as tasting like dishwater, and wine tasting like horribly spoiled and rancid grape juice. But just as a pig can learn to endure the sting of sliding under an electric charged fence wire to get into the garden and the delicious food there, we can learn that the sour/bitter/rancid/stinging taste of beer, wine whiskey or coffee are a signal signal that psychoactive effects are coming, and to "like" the taste of the beverage. Or maybe its just "educating the palate" and "broadening tastes." As for beer, I've been told that some young babies given a sip of it find it pleasing at first taste. Despite this, books on breast feeding say that a baby may breast feed less if the mother has consumed beer, due to the milk taste changing. Edison (talk) 15:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the best answer is that alcoholic drinks typically have an acquired taste. Most people don't appreciate the taste until after the first few times. TheGrimme (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I find the question and most of the answers baffling. To me, there is no such thing as the "taste of alcohol", just the taste of different drinks. I love whisky, I quite like whiskey, beer is OK but I can't abide real ale. Advocaat is delicious, but most other liqueurs taste too sweet. I used to like vodka but I don't any more, which I find puzzling. Alcopops taste abominable to me: ditto for arak. I love red wine, but am not too keen on most whites I've ever tried. I can't understand the fuss about champagne... all in all, what taste of alcohol? Try this: take a sip of Bailey's Irish Cream, followed by a sip of Cherry Brandy, followed by a sip of Laphroaig. Assuming they were all sips, you should be fit to answer the question - did the three taste anything like each other? --Dweller (talk) 16:58, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends on what you mean by "taste". I think alcohol has little taste in the strict sense of the word, meaning whatever is detected by the taste buds. It's not sour or salty or umami; it might be slightly sweet and very slightly bitter.

But most people use the word "taste" to indicate a whole range of perceptions from the mouth and nose. In that sense alcohol certainly has a taste. --Trovatore (talk) 23:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Put it this way - can you taste the difference between beer and non-alcoholic beer? Many people (apparently) can. That difference is the taste of alcohol.

Different alcholic drinks might taste different - just as different salty foods taste different. But the "taste of alcohol" is no more fictitious than the taste of salt. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PalaceGuard, I can taste the difference between different alcoholic beers, so I'm not sure your point proves anything. And I'm not even particularly into beer. The fact they taste different is because they're different. Different processes, different quantities, different machinery, sometimes different ingredients. Heck, if you're into whisky (without an e) the distillers often make grand claims about how amazing and important the water - found in their particular snippet of Scotland - is in producing their distinctive taste. --Dweller (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to call ^{[citation needed]} on the difference between beer and non-alcoholic beer being only the taste of alcohol. This must vary by brewer. Our non-alcoholic beer article explains that some breweries cook the beer at one stage to remove the alcohol, others use a vacuum evaporation system, and others use both; I would guess that any cooking step is going to alter the flavor, so the difference isn't merely the "taste of alcohol". (This is a guess because I'm not going to voluntarily drink low-alcohol beer any time soon.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a reference desk, no? Anyways, current research says alcohol has a sweet tasts (at least to rats), along with a bitter component [20] (Perhaps more surprising is that rats can be trained to avoid alcohol). It's clearly silly to suggest that alcohol has no taste. Alcohols have pretty distinct smells, which of course is a large part of taste. Get some relatively pure ethanol (some types of vodka), and give it a smell. Taste a little bit too (not too much of course - it is poison). Get some isopropanol, and try it a whiff too (the stuff you find in drugstores is often adultered with other stuff to keep you from drinking it - if you can find some pure stuff, give it a little sip). Find some methanol and smell it (probably don't want to be drinking that though). Buddy431 (talk) 01:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This phenomenon may account for the proliferation of the old alcopop market - drinks that taste sweet and fruity and have the same sort of alcohol content as good old fashioned beer. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly need a large amount of sugar to be able to tolerate the "taste" of alcohol, which is extremely bitter to me. StuRat (talk) 01:29, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When I first tasted alcohol, a glass of beer during a meal on my 18th birthday, I remember that I didn't particularly like the experience. The taste itself was OK, but the alcohol made it taste very fiery, which I disliked. But later as I grew accustomed to alcohol, I began to like beer and other low-alcoholic drinks, to the point where I now consider myself as something as a beer enthusiast. I still don't like high-alcoholic drinks, such as distilled spirits or liquors. JIP | Talk 20:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that there is, indeed, a gene which causes some people to experince ethanol as an unpleasant taste, while to others it has little taste, just as there are genes that cause some to hate cruciferous vegetables and the smell of urine from somebody who ate asparagus. If we could isolate that gene and provide it (or the protein(s) it produces) to alcoholics, that might reduce their addiction.StuRat (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I personally despise almost all alcoholic beverages. When I was younger, I drank them to fit in with everyone else, but now I'm old enough that I can say, you know what, forget it, I'm not going to force myself to drink beer or wine or, God forbid, whiskey, if I don't like it. They just don't taste good to me. I'd rather have a diet soda. Yes, there are a couple alcoholic beverages that I'm OK with, and I'm sure if I spent a lot of time I could find some beer that I'd really like. But why should I push myself to drink alcohol? One can live a perfectly full life without it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's almost like the opposite of alcoholism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Identification request

Can someone identify the location of this report? It's not at Freeport nor Blackthorn. Thanks, HurricaneFan 25 18:34, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the top message? The "CGC BLACKTHORN" (presumably Coast Guard Cutter Blackthorn), "GALV" (i.e., Galveston), and "FREEPORT" in the other messages suggest a Texas location. Could the "BRO" stand for Brownsville? Deor (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note also that BRO is the FAA identification code for Brownsville/South Padre Island International Airport, where there is no doubt a weather station. Deor (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, BRO is the NWS weather station in Brownsville. There are three messages here. The first message appears to originate from "ALCKTS", which, by context, would seem to be some kind of station in the vicinity of Brownsville, but I don't think it's affiliated with Weather Service. It could be a TV or a radio station. The second looks like a message from Coast Guard Cutter Blackthorn to a ship called Deight(?) and to its home base in Galveston, which somehow made it to "MKYC" (probably "MSYC", the weather station in New Orleans) and "NOCG" (New Orleans Coast Guard). The third is from MSYC to GLSC, the weather station in Galveston.--Itinerant1 (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. BRO appears to be a (former?) WBAS; I'll ask the NWS about it. HurricaneFan 25 01:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ask them what ALCKTS stands for. Again by context, it sounds like the sender assumed that the recipient in Brownsville would know its location. But most people who worked there at the time are retired or dead (the message is dated 1959). ALC might stand for Atlantic, and S stands for Station, but I have no idea what KT means. Google yields nothing. ALCKTS could even be a misspelling.

By the way, there actually was a Coast Guard Cutter Deight, stationed in New Orleans. Strings ending with 'Z' denote dates and times when each message was sent. For example, first message was sent by ALCKTS to BRO on the 24th of the month, at 00:27 Zulu (in other words, GMT). The section starting with "FM CGC BLACKTHORN" can be read as basically an email header, where "FM" is "From:", "TO" is "To:", "INFO" is "CC:", and "BT" stands for "Body Text" and denotes the start of the actual message text.--Itinerant1 (talk) 06:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Milled almonds ?

I bought some almonds that I really liked once, but I haven't been able to find them since. They had the shells removed, but also the woody-looking brown part right around the white "meat", which is normally left on. I expect that they had to use a machine to mill this part off. So, are these called "milled almonds" or something else ? A Google search under that term doesn't seem to find this product. (The packaging for the original isn't of any use, since they apparently just put them in the same bags as their regular almonds.) They were "Markets of Meijer" brand, one of the house brands for Meijer. StuRat (talk) 20:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like your referring to 'Blanched Almonds'. The don't mill but use hot water to remove the skins. I don't know if you have ever heard of a free encyclopedia called Wikipedia but they probably have and article mentioning them.--Aspro (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go:[21]. Enjoy!--Aspro (talk) 20:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blanche Almond? Didn't Vivien Leigh play that rôle in some Tennessee Williams play? Or perhaps she was married to a recent Governor of Rhode Island? —— Shakescene (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC) [reply]

Personally, I'd rather see Noce blanche again; but not to be too philosophical, I hear the next Bond film will be called 'Carte Blanche'. No doubt they will make a lot of money since they can claim to have their own blank cheque.--Aspro (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I've blanched my own almonds now, which just involved dropping them into a pot with boiling water and letting it cool, then peeling them. The water turns brown. They taste so much better blanched, I wonder why they are so hard to find. StuRat (talk) 23:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not here. Any ordinary Aussie supermarket (let alone specialty shops) that didn't sell blanched almonds would not be worth patronising. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One can see that the OP didn't spend much time sitting on his mother's knee in the kitchen :-) [22]--Aspro (talk) 20:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Queen Victoria's Gardener

I was informed by my mother and grandmother that her grandfather used to play with Queen Victoria when they were very young. Her grandfather was born in 1818 and died in the US in 1906. So the age is correct. He immigrated to the US with someone? when he was 11. Records show 1829. His name was John H. Russell. It is also said that he came from the Isle of Wight. His father (perhaps William?) was said to be the gardener for the Queen. My question of course is there any credence to any this information? Richard Karkau <e-mail address removed> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.2.123 (talk) 22:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed your e-mail address as any answers will appear here and to protect you from unwanted spam. The young Victoria visited the Isle of Wight on holiday twice, staying at Norris Castle (her first visit was in 1831 and her second was in 1833). In 1831 she stayed there for two months with her mother - information from here. I'm not sure that helps entirely, because she didn't have a permanent house there until she was married. Mikenorton (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the most famous Victoria doesn't seem to fit, you could look at one of these Queen Victorias, but I'm not optimistic for you. --Dweller (talk) 00:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is of course quite possible that a man from the Isle of Wight moved from it and became a gardener in some other locality. While there was considerably less mobility among the lower classes of the time than today, many British men served in the Army or Navy during the Napoleonic wars of 1803–1815 and necessarily left their home localities. Doubtless some also found employment in "furrin parts" (i.e. other counties of England) for varying periods after being discharged, and your great-great-grandfather William Russell might have been employed as a gardener at Kensington Palace where the young Queen-to-be Victoria spent her childhood.

That said, Victoria was raised by her mother Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld largely in isolation from even her aristocratic relatives as well as from other children (as detailed here, and also here), so it seems even more unlikely in Victoria's case than for any other aristocratic or royal girl child of the period that she would have been permitted to play with the son of a lowly outdoor servant such as a gardener. Note also that the gardens of Kensington Palace, as with similar aristocratic residences of the period, were quite extensive and would have employed dozens of gardeners; "the gardener" implies a Head Gardener, which is the sort of detail likely to have been exaggerated in the telling of such a tale.

On the face of it, without any kind of corroborative documentary evidence the story must be rated as possible but extremely unlikely. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.30 (talk) 11:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is of course possible that the dates are slightly out and that your great-great-grandfather was employed as a gardener at Norris Castle. It seems unlikely that the 12-year old Victoria would have been allowed to 'play' with a gardener's son, but they might have talked on occasion. I wouldn't rule out such a scenario completely. Mikenorton (talk) 11:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

December 14

Planning to travel to S’pore with 4 friends . Need to know cheap fares , economical hotels and choice of airlines… can someone HELP plzzzzz.

Planning to travel to S’pore with 4 friends . Need to know cheap fares , economical hotels and choice of airlines… can someone HELP plzzzzz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nayansood90 (talk • contribs) 07:20, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting somewhere-centric post. You've told us where you want to go to, but not where from. What would you like us to assume? HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For hotels, and indeed for your whole trip, you'll need a reliable guidebook. The Rough Guide is the best, available here. On no account use Lonely Planet. --Viennese Waltz 08:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is likely provide that much direct help but I would note there's no way we can tell you about cheap fares and airlines if you don't tell us where you plan to fly from. If you're from India the answer is likely to be quite different to if you're from the UK. Nil Einne (talk) 10:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

TripAdvisor [23] has lots of information and reviews on hotels, which you can search, and its forums are very active so if you post there you may well get advice. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the OP has assumed everyone on Wikipedia is from the same country as he/she is from? JIP | Talk 23:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In which case we can safely assume he/she is American. :) 24.92.85.35 (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or Indian. Or British. --ColinFine (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

India is closer to "S'pore" so that might be a plausible option. JIP | Talk 21:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yucca fruit nutritional value

I am looking for the nutritional value charts/analysis of the yucca fruit (Agavoideae, not "yuca root/cassava"). USDA's database doesn't have it, google gives some links talking about the use of the whole plant as animal-feed. Anywhere else I could look? thanks. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This site about the Spanish Dagger Yucca (Yucca treculeana}, suggests that the most widely used (and tastiest) yucca fruit comes from the Banana Yucca (Yucca baccata). There's a little more detail on this site, but not much about human nutrition. More information here on the yucca fruit in the Native American diet; after listing the nutrients found in other wild foods, it annoyingly states, "The yucca bananas from the Yucca Bacata, wide bladed yucca, are nutritious, sweet and delicious.". Mr Google suggests that this lengthy paper has some relevant information in it, but I'm afraid that I don't have time to wade through it and see if he's right. Good luck! Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yepp, seen all those. I might actually have to use... whatdyacallem?... "books"? :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Taxidermety+Polar bear+ William Marsh+1933 Chicago Worlds's Fair.

I have been told that my Great grandfather, William Marsh, entered a mounted Polar bear in this fair and won a prise.. Was there any such thing like this in the fair? Please reply to [redacted email addr.] Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.15.193 (talk) 20:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about polar bears, but they did award prizes for quilt patterns, posters, and etchings at the fair. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

December 15

get rid of creosote smell?

I brought a bookcase from my parent's house to my house. Inside it smells of creosote. Is there a way to get rid of that smell, without introducing another permanent smell? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Febreeze? --Jayron32 03:37, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Baking soda? Dismas|^(talk) 03:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to spray Febreeze on it, but I will try baking soda. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think baking soda works. The smell is persistent. Air the bookcase in the sun for weeks. Oda Mari (talk) 06:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A quick google search yield these results: [24] (Well ehow been blacklisted so) www.ehow.com/how_5770711_rid-creosote-smell.html Royor (talk) 07:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've had success with coffee grounds absorbing nasty niffs, but I suspect your problem is that whatever it is that stinks is absorbed into the stuff the bookcase is made of. Worth a try though - it's easy and cheap. --Dweller (talk) 11:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The bookcase is an antique and it took three people to get it in the house, so airing it out in the sun is not an option. I'm trying leaving the doors open to let it air out. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 16:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid there may not be an easy solution. Some ideas:

1) I agree with "let it air out", but increasing the temperature may help it outgas more quickly. If you move it to a garage or shed and leave it there for a year, maybe that will help.

2) Some nice-smelling oil might help to dilute the creosote. Lemon oil, for example.

3) You can try to mask the odor with other scents, but only once you reduce the stench somewhat.

4) Is it too late to return it ? It may never smell right. Can you live with this ?

5) If you can't return it, perhaps it could be sold to a family of smokers, who wouldn't notice the stench.

6) If you're dead set on keeping it and can't get rid of the stench, the only other option is to enclose it in a glass or plastic container, so you can view your acquisition without having to smell it. StuRat (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. I could return it to my parent's house, but we want to keep it and use it (we got it to use it, not just to have it). Enclosing it isn't a solution because that would prevent it from being used. I didn't smell it until I opened it, so the smell is on the inside. I only smell it when I'm close to it with the doors open (I forgot to mention that it has doors). But I also don't want the things inside the bookcase to acquire the smell. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 17:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would expect that they will acquire the smell. Perhaps you can store things inside which are easily washed, or where you don't care about the smell ? Outside Christmas decorations, for example. Or you could put a sealed storage bag around items you place inside.StuRat (talk) 17:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it has doors that could be a plus because that could confine treatment to the interior. They talk about the topic at Air freshener. Bus stop (talk) 18:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me if this seems over-obvious, but have you tried discreetly enquiring of your parents or other relatives from their house what may have caused the smell? You needn't describe it as a problem if that might cause offense, you could merely remark on a "distinctive" odour that you can't quite put a name to.

If you can find out the smell's origin, we/you might be able to think of ways to tackle it. I'm assuming it isn't something deliberately introduced, such as scented varnish or polish, or inherent to the wood (some aromatic woods, such as camphorwood, are deliberately used to make chests for clothes, etc) to which you're having an idiosyncratic reaction. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.51 (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know what caused the smell. When the house was built in 1963/64, my father insisted on using creosoted lumber for the subfloor (the boards on top of the frame and below the floor boards you walk on), against everyone's advice. There has never been a problem with termites, but the house has always had the creosote smell. About the early 1980s they sealed the floor with polyeurothane (sp?) and that cut out the great majority of the smell. However, the bookcase has been in the house 40+ years. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 18:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's your answer then. If it won't ruin the appearance, use polyeurothane or another sealant on the inside of the bookcase. once you have applied two coats and it's dried you should eb good to go. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is an antique, 110-130 years old. I don't want to ruin its value as an antique (which that might). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 20:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In time the smell should dissipate. Keeping the doors open should facilitate this. When out of the house, perhaps the doors should be left open. Cedar is very nice-smelling. A few blocks of cedar wood in the bookcase might help. Bus stop (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"4G": when did it become an advertising mantra, what does it mean really, is it as empty as it appears? Where's my 5G phone?

It seems in the last few years for every hour of television there is two hours of commercials for electronic devices screaming they are 4G!; because they are 4G we will swoon at the wonderfulness of their product, which is 367 times faster than grandmas phone or whatever, and will make you chicken soup when you're sick. I understand it means fourth generation but how/when/why did this phrase, which means nothing at me, become their banner call. I asked my co-workers yesterday if anyone really knew what the hell it meant other than "fourth generation" and everyone shrugged. When will we have 5G (that I expect will tuck our kids in and take out the garbage) and what will it entail?--108.46.103.88 (talk) 13:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

4G --Viennese Waltz 14:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned several times in th 4G article, most of the '4G' phones you hear about are not actually 4G. It has become a buzz word.
Confusion has been caused by some mobile carriers who have launched products advertised as 4G but which are actually current technologies, commonly referred to as '3.9G', which do not follow the ITU-R defined principles for 4G standards.
5G has been established but I don't believe any public phones have implemented it. TheGrimme (talk) 15:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A lack of enforcement of deceptive advertising laws is to blame here. This has also led to rental cars all advertised as being one size class larger than they are, and "LED TVs" which are just LCD TVs with LED backlights. StuRat (talk) 16:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the deceptive advertisers themselves are blameless just because they're not being properly held to account? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 18:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, the Atari Jaguar was marketed as the first 64-bit game console, though the "64-bit" claim is dubious, as the article discusses. Atari apparently made "64-bit" a central marketing argument as to why consumers should lust after the object. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relax. Take two Gigis and call me in the morning. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm old enough to remember when programming languages were described as 2nd or 3rd Generation, and 4th Generation was the arriving, next great thing. The numbering all seemed to stop after that. HiLo48 (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Calculating average utilization of equipments

What is the correct method of calculating the average utilization of equipment over a period of time. I am just confused between the two methods that can be used for calculation:

Total number of hours available for: 17 (May-11), 9 (Jun-11)

Total number of hours actually used for: 13 (May-11), 6 (Jun-11)

Method 1:

Utilization calculated for each month and then averaged: 0.764705882(=13/17 for May-11), 0.666666667(=6/9 for Jun-11)

Average utilization: 72% (average of 0.764705882 & 0.666666667) and then %

Method 2:

Total number of hours available for (May+Jun): 26 (=17+9 for May-11 & Jun-11)

Total number of hours actually used for (May+Jun): 19 (=13+6 for May-11 & Jun-11)

Taken the sum of both numerator and denominator and then calculated the utilization: 73% (=19/26 and then %) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.249.53.242 (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both are valid, depending on what you want to show.

Method 2 seems more logical to me and gives you a real average utilisation: the average total usage time over availablilty. It shows that 73% of the time is used.

Method 1 seems to give you the "average monthly usage", rather than the real average utilisation time, but in some cases you want to show that every month, you have only a 71.5% ustilisation (using the average of the monthly averages). --Lgriot (talk) 15:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, method 1 is the average of the monthly averages. Method 2 is the average over the 2-month period, and is considered the "mathematically correct" method, especially when combining periods of different lengths (31 days and 30 days). Dbfirs 16:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The phenomenon that with appropriately chosen numbers averages of averages can be somewhat misleading (at least if comparisons are involved) is Simpson's Paradox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.241.211 (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What's my ideal job?

I'm currently unemployed. This is, frankly, a bit of a bummer, but it does give me the chance to think a little about where I want my life to go. Trouble is, I'm not sure what I want to do when I grow up (which I keep expecting to happen one day), and so I hoped I might be able to crowd-source a career path.
Some info about me: I'm 27, male and from the UK. I'm currently living in London, but prepared to move elsewhere in the country, Scandinavia, Western Europe or somewhere else (in descending order of appeal) should the right job be available. I'm educated to A-Level, and spent 3 years at university studying mechanical engineering. I didn't really enjoy the subject, and so didn't graduate.
Since then, I've worked in the motor trade, both as a salesman and as an administrator. I spent the last 18 months or so living and working in Sweden on the 22nd World Scout Jamboree. I've been a member of The Scout Association for over 20 years, and have received a fair bit of training through them, so I'm happy working as a volunteer, in a team or alone, and with children.
My areas of strength seem to be in project management, particularly organising events, and I enjoy getting 'down and dirty' with the organisation of things - I'd rather get stuck in to a project than simply issuing directions to other people, although I can do the latter as well.
My work experience has taught me that I am happiest when working to achieve some sort of benefit to others, rather than simply to make someone rich. This doesn't necessarily mean working for a charity - it could be in customer service where you aim to solve people's problems.
Skills: I'm pretty good with computers, skilled user of MS Office, and I can pick up most software very easily. I consider myself to communicate well in written and spoken English, I speak pretty average Swedish, bad German and awful French. I'm fairly mathematically aware, and have a healthy scepticism that comes in handy when assessing information I've been given.

So, given all of that, what should I be looking for in a job? I've been trying to find something in the field of project management/event organisation for a charity, but having been knocked back from a few jobs I wonder if my skills would fit something else better. I'd love to hear suggestions, and I'd be happy to provide more info if it's needed. Thanks in advance for helping me with this rather indulgent request. - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 15:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC) (I am actually a registered user but I'm logged out right now since I've posted a little more personal info than may be entirely healthy)[reply]

Why not try the Services, you already have the skills that any of the three would need. I know they are cutting back, but they still have to recruit new labour anyway. Good luck in your hunt! (By the way, at 27 you could consider yourself grown-up already!)85.211.148.143 (talk) 16:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, interesting thought. However, unfortunately, I think a couple of seizures I had about 5 years ago (possible epilepsy, although they haven't recurred) would preclude me from that. Also, I'm not really sure I'm the right sort of person for a military life. I am, to coin a phrase, a lover, not a fighter. Thanks for the thought though. 2.25.98.245 (talk) 17:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See http://www.personalitytype.com/.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.selectsmart.com/topjobs.html

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these links. From the first, I am 'Introvert, Sensor, Thinker, Perceiver'. The second I felt was not too useful, since most of the questions I would answer as 'meh' (e.g. do you want to work inside or outside, do you feel happier wearing a suit or a uniform). However, for what it's worth the top result was Farm and home management advisors. Honestly, I'm not sure what one of those is. I'll investigate... - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You get paid for telling people how to milk their cows properly LOL Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think that would quite quickly result in me being told exactly where I could stick my advice on milking practice... ;-) - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How about a Meeting and convention planner? Your ambiguous stance on topics of interests would suggest to me anyway that you would fit in well with the task of facilitating other people's required conventions and meetings and events that punctuate their career activities. Bus stop (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is rather interesting. I shall look further. Thank you! By the way, I noticed that the article is quite US-centric. Anyone know if the same job exists in the UK? (I'm sure it does, but maybe has a different name which I can't think of right now...) - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather get stuck in to a project than simply issuing directions to other people - I doubt there's any job in the modern world that is just "issuing directions to other people". Dickensian archetypes die hard in our collective memories, it seems. Management roles include an element of decision making impacting on others, but it's far better to work as a team and have frequent workplace discussions that leave people feeling they've made as much of the decision as you have that they are now going to be doing some task or other. YOur background and experience equip you for many types of jobs, and your problem is whitting all the possibilties down. Whatever you do, please never grow up. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 18:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, current evidence is that growing up won't happen just yet. I agree with what you say about giving directions, I just meant to say that I'm not necessarily looking for a purely management role, I do enjoy doing actual work as well. Have you noticed that almost every single job nowadays is 'such-and-such manager' or 'this-and-that coordinator'; if every employee is a manager, who are they managing? - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think of it in those binary terms of the bosses vs. the bossed. Think of it as a circle, with everyone around the perimeter having a certain role to play, and with everyone interacting and communicating with everyone else. Some roles will include guiding others or directing others, that's all. Titles by themselves are just frippery, but if they serve an ego-purpose, they have their place. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm an American, so pardon my ignorance of the UK; but what about joining the UK equivalent of America's Peace Corps? (The links at the bottom of that article include one to the European Voluntary Service, though I don't know anything about that.) This might be a place to get more project management experience and subsequently not get "knocked back" from PM jobs at charities, if that's what you're interested in. Where I live, it seems that software companies always have open positions for PMs; maybe you should hit up every company you can in order to get a PM job, with the aim of doing that for a few years and mastering the craft, in order to increase your desirability as an employee, so you can have greater freedom to pick where you would like to work five years from now. Good luck - Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's funny you should say that - the European Voluntary Scheme was how I got to working in Sweden. I spent 4 months volunteering, and they liked me so much that they asked me to come back and get paid! Unfortunately it was only a short project, so that's now over, but it was good while it lasted. To be honest I had kinda hoped that now, having got the first bit of experience, it might be easier to find the right job, but I'm starting to think that's not so. But maybe I should just keep perservering - 2.25.98.245 (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Teaching? Particular Outdoor Education? But maybe any other field that appeals as well? HiLo48 (talk) 19:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Glasses lenses

I had to get some new lenses for my glasses and I already had 2 pairs with the same prescription but different frames. I told them to just get new lenses for one of the frames but after they arrived and were supposedly fitted I realised that I think I took in the wrong frame so I think they may have not actually given me the new lenses. If I went to another optician, is there a way they could check the prescription of my lenses? --178.208.197.76 (talk) 19:10, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, opticians have instruments that can measure the diopters of spectacle lenses. I have seen one used to determine my lenses, no citations, but I believe my eyes, even when I wasn't wearing my specs. I think that the lenses also have the dioptres on the surface of the lens and visible at certain angles. Whoa, just found lensmeter, see what you think. Richard Avery (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And on further looking, it's a vertometer that measures the dioptres of a lens. Richard Avery (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

wut is the user names of the various ppl who are in the wikipedia fundraiser banners

Sometimes it tell me their real name but i would like to know the WIKIPEDIA USER NAME of EVERY ONE of those ppl who are in the banners. if it is top secret you do not ahve to tell for privacy reason, but if it is not secret i would like to know these things

@@ Line 276: / Line 276: @@
 :: Yes, opticians have instruments that can measure the diopters of spectacle lenses. I have seen one used to determine my lenses, no citations, but I believe my eyes, even when I wasn't wearing my specs. I think that the lenses also have the dioptres on the surface of the lens and visible at certain angles. Whoa, just found [[lensmeter]], see what you think.  [[User:Richard Avery|Richard Avery]] ([[User talk:Richard Avery|talk]]) 19:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 And on further looking, it's a [[vertometer]] that measures the dioptres of a lens. [[User:Richard Avery|Richard Avery]] ([[User talk:Richard Avery|talk]]) 22:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
+== wut is the user names of the various ppl who are in the wikipedia fundraiser banners ==
+Sometimes it tell me their real name but i would like to know the WIKIPEDIA USER NAME of EVERY ONE of those ppl who are in the banners.  if it is top secret you do not ahve to tell for privacy reason, but if it is not secret i would like to know these things