Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. 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Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Wolf	Closed	Nagging Prawn (t)	30 days, 11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours
Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic	Closed	Randomstaplers (t)	26 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	14 hours
Double-slit experiment	Closed	Johnjbarton (t)	9 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 1 hours
List of musicals filmed live on stage	Closed	Wolfdog (t)	8 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours	Wolfdog (t)	3 hours
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Zsa Zsa Gabor	New	PromQueenCarrie (t)	6 days, 18 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	14 hours
Genocides in history (before World War I)	New	Jonathan f1 (t)	2 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 15 hours	Cdjp1 (t)	1 days, 6 hours
List of prime ministers of Sri Lanka	New	DinoGrado (t)	11 hours	None	n/a	DinoGrado (t)	11 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 17:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

List of state leaders

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Neve-selbert on 18:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of state leaders in 2006 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of state leaders in 2007 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of state leaders in 2008 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of state leaders in 2009 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of state leaders in 2010 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of state leaders in 2011 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Neve-selbert (talk · contribs)
• Zoltan Bukovszky (talk · contribs)
• GoodDay (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a dispute going on between I and Zoltan Bukovszky over the necessity of the inclusion of acting state leaders on articles such as List of state leaders in 2006, 2007, et al. serving concurring during the tenure of an incapacitated president. Both I and GoodDay would like to remove these state leaders from inclusion as we believe that since there had not been vacancy at the time their inclusion is merely trivial as the de jure president had always been, for example Fidel Castro or José Ramos-Horta, etc. regardless of their temporary incapacity. Zoltan wholly disagrees with this assertion and remains strongly of the view that acting state leaders serving concurrently should indeed be included fully (equally bulleted below the de jure president temporarily incapacitated). I soon came up with a compromise of a footnote, i.e. giving mention to these leaders albeit in a footnote neatly tucked away if a reader was interested. Zoltan then proceeded to dismiss this option as a compromise. We are now stuck. I, for one, believe there to be a major consistency flaw, e.g. both Ronald Reagan and Hugo Chávez were widely perceived to have been incapacitated during their incapacities in 1981 and 2012–13 respectively—yet neither had used Acting presidents unlike Castro and Ramos-Horta. The impression that this may give to readers may or may not be worthy of note—although it remains my view that this is an excessive use of WP:WEIGHT to display these acting de facto leaders on par with the actual de jure president that has become merely incapacitated (not suspended) on a temporary basis.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A compromise option, i.e. including the acting de facto state leaders serving concurrently in a footnote, has been endorsed both by myself and GoodDay. Zoltan duly dismisses this option as a credible compromise.

How do you think we can help?

A thorough review of the compromise option could perhaps prove to be a good idea. Contrary to Zoltan's viewpoint that the footnote option is a "deletion of relevant information", the footnote does actually give a greater background and/or insight to the (constitutional, etc.) situation at hand than the current status quo that is without any such footnote.

Summary of dispute by Zoltan Bukovszky

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

- These articles are about state leaders, so if someone served as acting president or acting prime minister, then they should naturally be listed in the article.

- Footnotes can be used to explain the background and reasons of the incumbent's leave of absence, if necessary.

- As per our previous discussion Neve-selbert wants to include an acting president when the substantive president is undergoing an impeachment process, but not when they are incapacitated for medical reasons. This distinction is irrelevant because both causes lead to the same end result: office holder on leave of absence, and their powers temporarily exercised by the acting leader. On the other hand GoodDay only wants to include acting leaders where there is no substantive office holder - which to me appears inconsistent (sometimes the acting leader became the next substantive office holder upon the previous incumbent's death, resignation or impeachment).

- Wikipedia editors shouldn't try to overwrite history based on what should have happened. If Reagan and Chavez did not have acting presidents then none should be invented for them, but if Castro and Ramos-Horta had acting presidents during their incapacity, then those should be included.

- Deleting or hiding acting leaders in a footnote would bereave the article of people who actually led their countries, sometimes for quite a considerable time (in the case of Raúl Castro, Phoumi Vongvichit and Gerald Cash it was several years). ZBukov (talk) 09:52, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by GoodDay

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

We should be having this content discussion at a designated article talkpage, which would cover all List of state leaders in Year articles & thus seek a consensus. Then if that fails, have an Rfc. Other editors haven't gotten a chance to give their input on this matter. Going to DRN, is too early. GoodDay (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Responding to request - Incapacitated means in this case, not being able to perform one's powers & duties, while still holding the office. GoodDay (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

List of state leaders discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion at User talk:Zoltan Bukovszky. Is that sufficient, since the discussion appears to be about six article pages. The other editors have been notified. Will another experienced volunteer please answer the question of whether this noticeboard can discuss an issue involving multiple articles? If not, the next step is probably a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment by non-moderating volunteer - In some countries, including the United States, there is a formal procedure for designation of an acting head of state. In the United States, this is defined by the Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution. In the case of Ronald Reagan, there was no Twenty-fifth Amendment designation when Reagan was shot, so that he continued to act in his own authority. When Ronald Reagan underwent surgery, he did issue a Twenty-fifth Amendment designation of Vice-president George W. Bush as acting President, but nothing newsworthy happened while he was unconscious except that he underwent surgery. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:01, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Ya mean of course Prez. Ronald W. Reagan passed his powers & duties temporarily on to Vice Prez. George H. W. Bush in 1985 :) PS - the 25th amendment's third clause was also invoked briefly in 2002 & 2007, where Prez. George W. Bush temporarily passed powers & duties onto Vice Prez. Dick Cheney :) GoodDay (talk) 03:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Moderating Volunteer's First Statement

This dispute already has obviously been extensively discussed on a talk page, and I think what is missing is what each party's definition of "incapacitated" because I think it may be at the root of the problem. Would each side please state their definition of "incapacitated"? Joel.Miles925 (talk) 14:12, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The whole notion of an "incapacitated" leader is wholly debatable. Indeed, many would consider Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe or Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand as incapacitated leaders, despite the fact that they are both officially "capacitated", as of this writing. My point is, the definition of "incapacitated" really depends on your own POV. For example, Bush was only incapacitated for a several hours in 2002 and 2007 and whether or not the international community recognised Cheney as the legitimate acting leader of the USA for that short time period is uncertain. Furthermore, I believe that the main culprit in this dispute is the consistency involved in respect to situations like these. As GoodDay noted in the talk page discussion, there was never a vacancy in the office of e.g. President of East Timor in 2008 or President, Prime Minister, or First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba in 2006–08. Considering his reasoning alone, my principal judgment would be to do away with these acting leaders serving concurrently as it creates confusion as to who was the actual official leader of that given country during that given time period. Having considered the arguments of the opposing side, I thought a footnote would be a good compromise option (instead of listing the acting leader equally bulleted underneath the temporarily incapacitated de facto one). This proposal was also rejected by the opposing side. All in all, my definition of an incapacitated leader is rather less trivial than one may expect—many leaders are incapacitated from time to time, and many leaders do not feel the need to have an Acting president to temporarily stand-in for them (and if they do, it usually goes unnoticed by the mainstream media and the international community, e.g. Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel in 2016), so therefore the whole notion of there being two presidents of one country at one time is rare and a frankly quite bizarre concept that does not adequately fit in a consistent manner on par with other similar situations that occurred have previously. My judgment is sound: a footnote should be apt enough for these special situations and nothing more and probably nothing less.--Neve–selbert 18:24, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I do like the idea of a footnote, but the problem is that we can't get all parties involved to agree. I will confirm that all parties have been sufficiently notified (ZBukov), and if so we should probably begin considering options that everyone would agree with (assuming all editors appear). Joel.Miles925 (talk) 13:13, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Each country's legal system probably has a definition for "incapacity", and it's not something I or we at Wikipedia would have to make a decision about. We are in no position to overwrite a country's decision to install or not to install an acting president. If Zimbabwe has not installed an acting president, then Neve-selbert's impression about President Robert Mugabe's state of health is irrelevant because it will not "create" an acting president. And looking for a common definition of incapacity is wholly beside the point, because leaders can go on a leave of absence for a host of different reasons (e.g. criminal investigation - Moshe Katsav, clinical depression - Kjell Magne Bondevik, constitutional impeachment - Traian Basescu, medical emergency - José Ramos-Horta, etc). And regarding acting leaders all we can - and should - do is note and duly include them in the list. ZBukov (talk) 13:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:UNDUE, the sheer inclusion of these acting presidents, etc. serving concurrently on par with the official presidents bulleted above is really quite simply, in my humble opinion, a result of undue and excessive weight. The footnote option gives us the best of both worlds in many respects, i.e. these temporary stand-in leaders are mentioned, while tucked away neatly in a footnote.--Neve–selbert 20:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Non-Moderating Volunteer Note - The filing part, User:Neve-selbert, has been indefinitely blocked. Unless the two other parties wish to discuss with each other, it would probably be advisable for the moderator or coordinator to close the case. If the filing party is unblocked and wishes to re-open discussion, they can refile. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Joint Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Legal_aspects_of_Iran.E2.80.99s_threat_of_genocide_-_is_it_a_random_fringe.3F

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Dontmakemetypepasswordagain on 04:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action#Legal aspects of Iran.E2.80.99s threat of genocide - is it a random fringe.3F (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk · contribs)
• Yagasi (talk · contribs)
• NPguy (talk · contribs)
• Neutrality (talk · contribs)
• Vesuvius_Dogg (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

1st Talk link2nd Talk link --- Although I only recently became involved, there has been a dispute since about September 2015 at the Iran nuclear deal article. Inclusion was attempted of some material regarding significant criticisms by very prominent legal figures regarding the propriety of allowing privileges and sanctions relief without Iran having to cease threatening Israel. See this NPOV noticeboard post for a complete explanation of the sourcing and proposed text. It all seems pretty reasonable if you ask me, but Inclusion of any of this material was relentlessly opposed and reverted on the claimed basis that it was a "FRINGE" view, which is frankly preposterous given any close inspection of the WP:FRINGE policy. The behavior continued after I rewrote and restored some of the material. However, I think those insisting on exclusion were not forthcoming in seriously discussing any policy basis for removing the material. One user actually purported to assess the quality of the legal view itself based on his own knowledge, which I think is also preposterous. Another user appeared to reluctantly support some kind of inclusion but made a dubious argument that since two of the scholars were already cited for a separate criticism it would be undue to cite them again, but in any event he repeatedly reverted too. Both made the puzzling claim that the criticism of the nuclear agreement was not relevant to it. Myself and the other user supporting inclusion are in disbelief, I think, that such a bald violation of policy is being claimed as an enforceable consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I posted to the NPOV noticeboard; see link above. I did not notify the others because my goal was to gain outside opinion, not continue the debate in another place. Two users responded without any reference to policy, with one attacking my motives—these responses explain my decision to seek mediated discussion rather than opening an RFC—but there was in my opinion one good substantive response, from administrator Masem.

How do you think we can help?

Mediate a discussion where all are expected to set forth clearly stated policy justifications for a desired outcome. Disfavor simple and conclusory use of "fringe" as an adjective to describe a claimed minority viewpoint, without reference to the policy language and examples. Act as referee. I think there is, as yet, no serious argument that well-sourced opinions in the relevant field by experts of this stature come within a country mile of the WP:FRINGE prohibition.

Summary of dispute by Yagasi

The proposed edits are based on opinion of prominent legal experts. To be a fringe theory, the edits must challenge a mainstream idea broadly supported by legal scholarship in reliable sources. No such scholarship sources were mentioned by proponents of the fringe claim and they have not affirmed the existence of a mainstream idea supported by scholarship. This violates WP:FRINGE.

Furthermore, the proponents of the fringe claim have presented viewpoints of some Wikipedia editors as a mainstream idea by giving these viewpoints undue weight and calling the legal experts "minority". This violates WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight that plainly requires: "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public."

Moreover, the proponents of the fringe (marginal view) claim have presented their viewpoints as editor consensus. This misrepresentation violates WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NPOV. Wikipedians must keep in mind that "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia... It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies... This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." Yagasi (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The fringe claim was supported by a subsidiary argument based on a Wikipedia editor legal interpretation of the Convention: "The convention is focused on actions of persons and enacting criminal penalties for such actions. I could find no obligation to prevent threats of genocide..." This clearly violates the WP:NOR policy which cannot be overruled by editor consensus. Moreover, this argument is fallacious and cannot be accepted. Under Article I of the Convention "The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish". In its judgment in the Bosnian Genocide case the International Court of Justice decided: "The ordinary meaning of the word “undertake” is to give a formal promise, to bind or engage oneself, to give a pledge or promise, to agree, to accept an obligation." Yagasi (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by NPguy

The first and largest problem with the cited claims about the genocide convention is that they appear to be without legal merit. There are assertions about what the Genocide Convention requires and prohibits that lack support in the actual text of the Convention. The convention is focused on actions of persons and enacting criminal penalties for such actions. I could find no obligation to prevent threats of genocide, though incitement to genocide is punishable. So each of the legal claims is an extrapolation that departs significantly from the actual obligations in the convention. Since none of the sources appears to make an actual legal argument (i.e. an argument based on specific provisions of the Convention) it seems appropriate to treat them as fringe political views rather than serious legal claims.

The second difficulty is the argument that Iran has acted in a way that triggers the convention by allegedly threatening genocide against Israel. Most analyses indicate that statements by Iranian officials that Israel should not exist are rhetorical and political arguments, not actual threats. But there are serious sources who treat these as serious threats, so it seems appropriate to recognize this view.

But the argument that this supposed threat of genocide requires other states to refrain from any agreement with Iran unless Iran abandons its supposedly genocidal threats is extraordinarily broad. As far as I can tell, it is completely unsupported by any theory of domestic or international law. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which the proponents have not provided. NPguy (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Neutrality

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Vesuvius_Dogg

I agree with NPGuy's explanation and reasoning. I've said that while I prefer the material be deleted, if it is to be included, it should not be written so as to misrepresent the Genocide Convention and its requirements. Even Beres concedes that "the language of the Genocide Convention does not explicitly require any such precise enforcement" regarding genocidal statements or incitement. I've read the treaty and various op eds (or should we call them "motions"?) and find them highly novel from a legal point of view. Also, it should be noted Dershowitz's offhand comment was apparently made to NewsmaxTV and quoted on that non-RS site, making it problematic to give it weight on Wkipedia given that he has not published nor made this argument elsewhere, to my knowledge.

For what it's worth, I don't recall making more than a single edit on this issue, though I did comment on the Talk page. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Joint Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Legal_aspects_of_Iran.E2.80.99s_threat_of_genocide_-_is_it_a_random_fringe.3F discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion on the talk page. The listed editors have been notified of the filing. One editor, User:Joshua Isaac, has commented at the talk page but has not been invited to the discussion, and should be notified. Waiting for statements from other editors, since participation is voluntary although encouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not originally notify User:Joshua_Issac because he did not at any point remove, object to, discuss, or otherwise address the material regarding complaints about Iran's threats against Israel. I have gone ahead and notified him, but if he chooses not to participate, I strongly urge that this should not be taken as a reason to close the mediation—because IMO he was never involved with this dispute in the first place.

On an unrelated note, I gather that the protocol for discussion going forward is for us not to respond to each other directly, but instead wait for the next "round" of statements once everyone has either posted a summary or declined to participate? Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, first all the summaries and then responses. Yagasi (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

University of_Northern_New_Jersey

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Mdupont on 02:09, 14 April 2016 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute University of Northern New Jersey (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mdupont (talk · contribs) Neutrality (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The Commission_on_English_Language_Program_Accreditation has been busy whitewashing their website to try and hide the fact that they accredited the fake university. I caught them with multiple archives of the website after I noticed they removed the main listing. I have provided screenshots of the google cache, prints and downloads of the original page and multiple archives from different web tools of the old content. Neutrality still does not want to admit this as evidence. Have you tried to resolve this previously? none How do you think we can help? I would like to know how I can reference a web snapshot as proof of whitewashing. There must be some precedent on this. Summary of dispute by Neutrality Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. University of_Northern_New_Jersey discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Volunteer note: This dispute has not been discussed thoroughly yet; only evidence of discussion is on the filing party's talk page. In addition, this dispute is relatively simple and seems to be resolvable by candid non-mediated discussion and maybe a third opinion, so there is likely no need for DRN. File again if a) discussion fails to resolve the dispute and b) extensive discussion has taken place. Esquivalience t 02:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:Anarchism sidebar

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 24.197.253.43 on 03:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Template:Anarchism sidebar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Knight of BAAWA (talk · contribs)
• Interrexconsul (talk · contribs)
• Eduen (talk · contribs)
• N-HH (talk · contribs)
• FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk · contribs)
• Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am having an edit skirmish with a user who insists that the page Anarcho-capitalism belongs in the "Schools of thought" category of the Anarchism sidebar; I do not. This is a long-running dispute which needs to be resolved. I believe it violates considerations of undue weight, as stated in my comments on the Talk page. It seems clear to me that the person who is arguing for its continued inclusion is doing so for purely ideological reasons (and I won't deny having the opposite ideological stance), and s/he has repeatedly refused or failed to provide sufficiently strong arguments as well as intentionally misrepresenting my arguments.

What should be the next step for a conclusive resolution as to whether or not this topic belongs on this sidebar?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have sought consensus on the Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

We need a final resolution as to whether or not Anarcho-capitalism belongs in the "schools of thought" section of the Anarchism sidebar. Note that the ideological war between the yea and nay sides extends far beyond Wikipedia.

I would like to see "Capitalism" (and possibly several other scarcely-relevant topics, particularly "Nationalism") removed from the "Schools of thought" section. They are mentioned in other places and, as fringe ideologies, that seems more like where they belong.

Summary of dispute by Knight of BAAWA

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This edit-war against anarchocapitalism has been ongoing for at least a decade. In that time, it has been decided on the anarchism talk page and the template talk page time and again to be inclusive in spite of the feelings of those who do not like capitalism. And this time is more of the same, which is just hatred. In fact, 24.197.253.43 called the inclusion of anarchocapitalism on the template page "vandalism". Should you think I am misquoting him, I assure you that I am not. To wit: "I do not apologize for the reversion war with User:Knight of BAAWA as I consider the inclusion of "Anarcho-capitalism" to be vandalism. S/he clearly has an ideological axe to grind and their claims of neutrality are laughable." And we have the usual from Eduen with scarce-quotes, and other sundry who are just lumping in with hate instead of trying to make the template better.

This is simply yet another bad-faith edit on the part of those who have an ideological axe to grind against anarchocapitalism. Period. Nothing more. Wikipedia is supposed to be inclusive and objective, yet time and again those with an ideological axe to grind against anarchocapitalism refuse to accept that, preferring instead to exclude due to their own biases. Now I'm not saying that I'm not biased: I am. However, I hold to the inclusive idea of Wikipedia. Otherwise, for instance, on the christianity page there'd be edit wars with the protestants vs the catholics or jws or some other sect trying to remove mention of one or the other. You can see where this leads: chaos for Wikipedia. Far better to be inclusive.

Further, it seems those who do not like anarchocapitalism do not understand what "fringe" means on Wikipedia. They think "fringe" means "minority position", when it means something much different. Quoting from "What Fringe is Not", we find "WP:FRINGE has nothing to do with politics or opinions. (For example, a small political party may be a fringe party, but it is not appropriate to cite FRINGE when discussing such parties.) Politics and opinions may be on 'the fringe' of public perception, but the matter of our FRINGE guideline deals directly with what can be proven or demonstrated using the scientific method by academics, scholars, and scientists. Political opinions about recent history, future predictions, social opinion, and popular culture cannot be fringe because the basis of the opinion is not scientific or academic." and "WP:FRINGE is most often abused in political and social articles where better policies such as WP:NPOV or WP:UNDUE are appropriate. Citing WP:FRINGE in discussions and edit summaries is often done by POV pushers in an attempt to demonize viewpoints which contradict their own."

We can see that fringe is being attempted, and was abused already by Iterrexconsul, whereupon I had to quote him the entirety of What Fringe Is Not on his talk page to get him to understand.

So let us embrace inclusivity and objectivity. I do hope the other editors will agree that this is a good thing. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Interrexconsul

The editor Knight of BAAWA has continuously fought for the inclusion of "Anarcho-Capitalism" on the template for the side bar for Anarchism, specifically under the "Schools of Thought" section. However, the vast preponderance of scholars contend that, despite the name, anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism. The greatest objections most scholars have to it being considered anarchism is the fact that it not only condones, but encourages the concept of private property, which one of anarchism's central tenets is to oppose. The key issue at hand is that of all groups of people, there is only one informed group that would define anarcho-capitalism as an anarchist school of thought, that is its own adherents (which Knight of BAAWA has clearly show he/she is one, frequently calling all who disagree "haters"). Every other reputable source that has more than a passing knowledge of anarchism, both adherents and independent scholars, instead label it as being a type of libertarianism. I would contend that the relationship between Anarcho-Capitalism and Anarchism is the same as that of National Socialism and Socialism. While they both share perhaps a vague concept of the role of government (Ancaps and anarchists saying none, National Socialists and Socialists saying centralized), the only other similarity is in the name, and in fact once examined at any depth they are revealed to be in fact very very different indeed. So, I would propose that Anarcho-Capitalism not be included as a school of thought of anarchism. However, I do believe the debate as to its nature is relevant and can be included in the sidebar under “issues”. Interrexconsul (talk) 04:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Eduen

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Basically most of the general sources on anarchism do not include this strange combination of words called "anarcho-capitalism" as a form of anarchism and as a matter of fact don´t even mention it. The few works that mention it tend to say that it is a part of right wing politics and radical economic liberalism and, as such, contrary to one of the main characteristics of anarchism which has always been and continues to be, anti-capitalism. Even though we have different editors who remove that thing from this template, as can be seen by anyone in the page of edits of the talk section, user Knight of BAAWA keeps bringing it back and it is a sort of personal crusade of his to do this. This happens even though everyone tells him more or less the same thing. Mainly that anarcho-capitalism is not included in general sources as part of anarchism and that it is such a minoritarian position historically and geographically that it does not deserve inclusion within "anarchists schools of thought" even thogh that does not mean that the wikipedia article "anarchocapitalism" should be deleted. I don´t think it should be deleted since it does have a significant literature but mainly one located very clearly within US economic liberal and right wing problematics and agendas. As such political agendas historically considered by anarchism as enemies to fight againts even to the point of resorting to high levels of violence as this very anti-capitalist large anarchist political action shows.--Eduen (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by N-HH

Per Eduen and Interrexconsul. There's a clear dispute about classifying Anarcho-capitalism (and similarly National Anarchism) as a form of anarchism in authoritative sources, and even among anarcho-capitalist writers themselves, and hence WP should not classify it that way definitively, while nonetheless acknowledging the connection. It's quite a simple problem in that respect, but the debate is being made additionally difficult by one editor repeatedly insisting it has to be simply and definitively classified that way regardless, merely on their say-so, and constantly berating anyone who questions that on an objective basis as a "hater". Even compromise proposals are simply vetoed and any changes edit-warred out. N-HH talk/edits 07:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by FreeKnowledgeCreator

I have nothing to say, except that my involvement in this issue has been minimal, and that I reserve the right to have little to nothing to do with it in future. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:10, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

To clarify, while I stand by the comments I have made on this issue in the past, I do not see myself participating any further in the dispute. I do not wish to be part of the dispute resolution process. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Malik Shabazz

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I'd like to ask, "Who are these people?" With the exception of Eduen and Knight of BAAWA, each of whom is a long-term editor of this template, neither the filer nor any of the other "users involved" ever edited the template or its talk page before this week. So maybe somebody ought to ask what's really going on here. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, Esquivalience, I don't know how you concluded I've "shown apathy regarding this dispute." Unlike the johnny-come-latelies who showed up this week to try to tear down this template, I've been editing it and protecting it from vandals since 2013. I think if the template can include black anarchism ("a loose term sometimes (and only recently) applied in the United States to group together a number of people of African descent (mainly from a Black Panther Party background) who identify with anarchism") and infoanarchism ("coined in a TIME Magazine article called 'The Infoanarchist' in July 2000") as anarchist "schools of thought", it ought to include anarchocapitalism as well. Nothing apathetic about my edit history at the template or anything I've written about it. If this charade is going to proceed, I'd like to continue to be part of it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:52, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I apologize for my semi-blind inference (the wording of your initial comment seemed like you did not want to participate further), but now all parties have made statements and have no objections to dispute resolution (except FreeKnowledgeCreator, who has explicitly stated that he does not want to participate), so it may commence. Esquivalience ^t 02:57, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Personally i do not have any problem with taking out inforanarchism also from "schools of thought". Black anarchism has more of a line of wirtten work, intelectuals engaged with it and actual practice. On the other hand "infoanarchism" seems to me is a vague concept with few theoretical development. It could very well only be included in "concepts"--Eduen (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This user for one is not a "johnny come lately" thanks, but has edited on politics topics for around nine years. I started an RFC a while back on this very issue, on the Anarcho-capitalism page itself (which concluded broadly in favour of our position). If the arguments against removal are simply ad hom attacks like that and insinuations about motive, plus "we can't remove this from the schools of thought, as otherwise we might have to remove other things too", it's all a bit weak. Anarcho-capitalism needs to be considered on its own merits. And if others currently included should also not be there, per the authoritative literature on anarchism, they should indeed come out too. Otherwise we are just saying WP should keep misleading information otherwise we'd have to look at removing even more, which is an odd way to go about creating an encyclopedia. N-HH talk/edits 09:25, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Template:Anarchism sidebar discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

•  Volunteer note: I will be opening this case for moderated discussion once and if all the parties show willingness to participate. Participation is encouraged. Calm, civil discourse, without personal attacks, is required. All parties are urged to refrain from edit warring or performing any editing of the sidebar while it is still under this dispute. Esquivalience ^t 11:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note: FreeKnowledgeCreator's participation in this dispute was minimal, so I do not believe that he should be listed as a party. Esquivalience ^t 20:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note: In addition, Malik Shabazz has only contributed to the discussion a few times, and thus should not have been listed as a party unless they wish to participate further in discussion. He/she has also shown apathy regarding this dispute.

It appears that all of the involved parties have made statements. But some roll call first: FreeKnowledgeCreator and Malik Shabazz (who appear to have only made a few comments), do you two wish to participate in dispute resolution, discuss further on the talk page, or exit the dispute altogether? Esquivalience ^t 01:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Y Commencing: FreeKnowledgeCreator has withdrawn from the dispute altogether, and Malik Shabazz has shown an explicit willingness to continue participation, so dispute resolution may commence. I will post an opening statement in no more than 24 hours once I have looked into this issue in more detail and its surrounding context. Esquivalience ^t 03:01, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer

I have read the discussion and surrounding context. It appears that this dispute and discussion boils down to whether placing anarcho-capitalism as a school of thought in the infobox represents due weight or undue weight and whether anarcho-capitalism is an anarchic viewpoint at all, according to the general scholarship.

I believe that a closer examination at the outside viewpoints relating to these issues may help in formulating a solution. Can the parties present specific, prominent sources which either discuss or convey a viewpoint on anarcho-capitalism and its relation to anarchism? Esquivalience ^t 01:44, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure where you want this, and you may have picked up on these already, but as a starter this talk page edit of mine has a couple. There's a specific section on the main Anarcho-capitalism page on the relationship (indeed there's a whole separate page too, although I am not familiar with it and I suspect it's probably a bit OTT and hence AFD-able). Obviously one should treat the section as warily as any other WP content in terms of accuracy/balance, but there are links to outside sources there specifically addressing the point. N-HH talk/edits 09:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding due weight, my argument is that "Anarcho-capitalism" is an unorthodox new idea with no historical presence to speak of. In contrast, several Anarchist tendencies such as Anarcho-Syndicalism have had a relatively enormous presence in history and the real world over the course of the past 150 years and through the present day, from the First International to the Russian and Spanish Civil Wars to the recent Occupy movement. Further, Anarchist philosophers such as Noam Chomsky (who is, as perhaps the top expert of Anarchist theory in the world today, of the opinion that "Anarcho-capitalism" is not a form of Anarchism) and Emma Goldman are nearly household names and are widely referenced outside of specifically Anarchist circles. In contrast, "Anarcho-capitalism" has had no historical presence beyond theory and today exists almost entirely on the Internet, with no prominent adherents who are referenced outside this topic. To feature it so prominently would be comparable to featuring an extremely obscure branch of Christianity such as Branch Davidianism at the top of the Christianity sidebar, or String Theory on the Quantum Mechanics sidebar. Because of its lack of real-world presence, and its disagreement with fundamental principles shared by Anarchists such as opposition to private property in the capitalist sense (note that Mutualism is somewhere between tolerated and accepted, due to its history and compatibility with Anarchist concepts of property), I argue that "Anarcho-capitalism" is more appropriately placed in the "Issues" section, where it already can be found. For similar reasons, I also think that the Naturist, Vegan, Black, Existentialist, and Infoanarchist entries are not worthy of a place in the "Schools of Thought" section, although these have received relatively little discussion. 24.197.253.43 (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Also regarding due weight, given the fact that it is mentioned in sources outside of anarchocapitalism itself (such as the Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought) of the anarchism and anarchocapitalism pages as a school of anarchism, it belongs in the schools. Otherwise, we find once again that the catholics would try to edit out the protestants and vice-versa for the christianity article or template. Simply because something is not as old as other schools does not make it any less of a school. Otherwise, jws, mormons, and charismatics (the last having only been around since 1967!) shouldn't even be in the denominations category for the christianity template. The upshot is that this resolution will have consequences FAR beyond this one template. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Again, you are misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not arguing legitimacy or fact, but notability and weight. By any measure, "Anarcho-capitalism" is a speck compared to mainstream Anarchist thought, history, and activity. 24.197.253.43 (talk) 23:47, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

•  Volunteer note: Pinging Eduen, Malik Shabazz, and Interrexconsul to see if they have any more comments regarding this issue (aside from their summary of dispute). Esquivalience ^t 00:45, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe I have any more to add to this that hasn't already been said in one way or another. I continue to believe that Anarcho-Capitalism is not in fact a "school of thought" of Anarchism, and that it shouldn't be included as such in the sidebar, yet I do believe that it, and the controversy surrounding it may be of interest to someone reading about anarchism, thus I believe it should be under the "issues" section. Interrexconsul (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I think i have stated my main points already regarding "anarchocapitalism". I see it alongside some reliable sources, as belonging to right wing politics and economic liberalism/neoliberalism. It is mainly a radical, perhaps extreme, form of neoliberalism which only has in common with anarchism its anti-statism. So called anarchocapitalists exist in real life politics mostly just in the US besides conservatives and neoliberal politicans and activists and sometimes it is hard to see if they do anything at all besides writing books on economics and commenting things on internet forums. Yet anarchism also has anti-parlamentarism in common with fascism, anti-capitalism in common with maoism, and "progressive values" in common with social democracy. Nevertheless we can clearly say that anarchism retains its specific character besides all of those positions with which it might have one superficial point in common yet too many differences to as to constitute something very different. This is no different with the particular ideologies of economic liberalism and neoliberalism, or as these as known in the US "Libertarianism".--Eduen (talk) 05:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of_Ia_Drang#ARVN_involvement (2)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 117.6.88.137 on 05:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Battle of Ia Drang#ARVN involvement (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved David J Johnson (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I think the ARVN should not be a belligerent while Tnguyen4321 doesn't Have you tried to resolve this previously? this request once How do you think we can help? remove South Vietnam from the box as a belligerent Summary of dispute by David J Johnson Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I have no further comments - apart from what I said several days ago. David J Johnson (talk) 16:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC) Talk:Battle of_Ia_Drang#ARVN_involvement (2) discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Sudden infant_death_syndrome#study_on_use_of_fans

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Wpegden on 02:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Sudden infant death syndrome#study on use of fans (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Wpegden (talk · contribs) Doc James (talk · contribs) Zad68 (talk · contribs) Jytdog (talk · contribs) Ozzie10aaaa (talk · contribs) WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs) Drchriswilliams (talk · contribs) DHeyward (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I proposed to add a mention of a study on SIDS concerning the effect of fan use on the risk. One study has been done on this issue, so the link is not considered established. However, several high-quality secondary sources discuss the fact that the study was done. I believe it makes sense for the wiki article to refer to the fact that this study was done, in some form or another. I am NOT advocating that the wiki article assert that fans reduce SIDS use, which I think would be an improper dependence on primary sources in a medical article. Several editors have objected, although now some editors are also agreeing that it is appropriate to mention the study in some way. To me it seems that the main objections are: 1) If we mention this study, then some parents might think that by using a fan, they can ignore other SIDS recommendations. To me, this objection is a violation of WP:MEDMOS. Specifically, we should not "emphasize or de-emphasize verifiable facts so that readers will make the 'right' choice in the real world." (In this case, the verifiable fact was that one limited study was done, which found a beneficial effect from fans.) 2) We should not mention the study, because it does not appear in the AAP policy statements on SIDS. To me, this seems to be in disagreement with WP:MEDMOS, specifically, the directive that we are writing for a general audience, instead of an audience of patients and practitioners, which are the audience of the AAP guidelines. In particular, some members of a general audience (e.g., scientists, people without babies, etc.) will be interested in the state of research on connections with SIDS, even if they are not solid enough for clinical recommendations. The fact that several high-quality secondary sources mention the study on fans should suffice to justify its inclusion. If we restrict the article to only include items from the AAP policy directives, we are writing for a limited audience. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried hard to have a comprehensive and productive discussion on the talk page. I have tried to engage constructively with all objections raised there. (On a separate note, Jytdog has said that he is now WP:SHUNing me, so I'm not sure whether or not he will participate.) How do you think we can help? Despite my (and presumably, others') efforts, the discussion on the talk page as been quite unfocused. It seems like it should be possible to reach consensus on some basic questions, such as: should the wiki article only discuss AAP policy proposals on SIDS? When is it not appropriate to include verifiable facts which are discussed in high-quality secondary sources? And hopefully, this would start the process of drafting something we can all agree on. Summary of dispute by Doc James Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Zad68 Sorry but I don't think a DRN process would be a good use of time and I'm unlikely to participate here. We've already talked about it a lot on the Talk page and it's pretty clear there isn't consensus to include, I don't see what the benefit would be by arguing it again over here. Zad68 16:43, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Jytdog Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This is blatant WP:IDHT from the OP, who has literally no support for the content they want to add and will not hear that. Jytdog (talk) 16:46, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Ozzie10aaaa as per prior comments [1] your edits were not WP CONSENSUS per Talk:Sudden_infant_death_syndrome,[2]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by WhatamIdoing Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Drchriswilliams Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. There was a discussion that was already underway when I came across it, 28 comments were already listed and so I thought a fresh voice might help. There are a number of parts of the Wikipedia SIDS article that aren't up-to-date or well written. But this was a discussion that appeared to centre around the relative merits of making use of a study that had looked at whether fans might alter risk. SIDS is a diagnosis that is made post-mortem and our understanding of some of the risks has been changing over time. There have been attempts at systematic review of the available evidence, with one of the most prominent examples of this published by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2011. There are aspects of SIDS that are more straightforward to analyse, so there are some recommendations that have some weight of evidence behind them. We should not be giving undue prominence to research that is flawed or where there is sufficient doubt about the validity of the findings. Drchriswilliams (talk) 18:53, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by DHeyward Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Not in the lead. Not authoritative in any way and not suggesting that fans mitigate the risk of SIDS. Otherwise fans are great. So are humidifiers and dehumidifiers. --DHeyward (talk) 16:41, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Talk:Sudden infant_death_syndrome#study_on_use_of_fans discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note – The listed users have not been notified on their talk pages. It is the responsibility of the user who files a case to notify all the involved users. KSFTC 15:26, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Sorry about that! I have put in the notification templates now. Wpegden (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Under the circumstances, there seems to be some question raised by Zad above regarding WP:TE problems here. I think maybe a better first step than DRN here might be to file an RfC as per WP:RFC and notify any interested WikiProjects or other groups regarding that. John Carter (talk) 17:05, 18 April 2016 (UTC) I've gone ahead and put in a RfC. To be clear, the reason I though it was appropriate to request DRN is that there have been these accusations starting which I don't think are grounded in what has actually happened, so that a moderated discussion would be helpful. For example, Jytdog's comment above that I have "literally no support for the content [I] want to add and will not hear that" can be clearly seen to be false from the talk page, where WhatamIdoing is now very supportive, and Drchriswilliams has indicated that he is open to the content in certain sections but not others (which I am completely fine with). Wpegden (talk) 18:25, 18 April 2016 (UTC) I disagree with John Carter. RFC normally comes after DRN if DRN doesn't help. KSFTC 19:13, 18 April 2016 (UTC) Ok sorry I went ahead and filed an RFC in response to his suggestion. I'm not as familiar with some of these conventions as I should be. Wpegden (talk) 19:45, 18 April 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom and User talk:15zulu

– New discussion.

Filed by Editor FIN on 15:50, 19 April 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom and User talk:15zulu (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Editor FIN (talk · contribs) 15zulu (talk · contribs) Cassandro (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Antony Armstrong-Jones, 1st Earl of Snowdon retired from the House of Lords under House of Lords Reform Act 2014 on 31 March 2016. According to the Act, the retirement took effect at the beginning of the date (i.e. on midnight). Therefore, he was not a member of the House of Lords at any point of his retirement date, which is merely a technicality, because the beginning of a date is the same moment as the end of the preceding date. I originally put 30 March as his term end date on infobox, because this was the last day, when he was a member of the House of Lords. 15zulu disagreed with me on which date should be given as the term end date. He thinks that it should be 31 March, because this is the official retirement date. Thus, we have a disagreement on whether to use the resignation date or the last day when a person actually held the mentioned position as a term end date in an infobox. Often these are the same day, but when a resignation takes effect on midnight, these can be different. Have you tried to resolve this previously? First, we discussed the issue on 15zulu's user talk. Then he added the topic on WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom talk. How do you think we can help? You might give us information on practices or opinions on which date should be used as the end date for a term of office in an infobox. Summary of dispute by 15zulu All sources give one date, 31 March 2016. The current discussion at the project page has Cassandro and me stating that we should use the date as reported by sources and only one user, Editor FIN, saying we should use a date that's not in any sources regarding Armstrong-Jones. Editor FIN has also failed to provide any examples on Wikipedia or elsewhere where the end of term is before the retirement date, instead arguing that it's my burden to prove. Since he wants a date which is different than all the sources, than it's his burden to convince other that we should use this other date. 15zulu (talk) 22:26, 19 April 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Cassandro Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom and User talk:15zulu discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - First, this case is misfiled, in that, although the parties have been notified, the case is not listed correctly (probably because of an attempt to list two talk pages at once). Second, the filing part is asked to read the essay on lame edit wars. I personally will not accept a case over an off-by-one date. (Anyway, compromise is not possible, since 30.5 March is not a day.) I don't object if other editors will accept this lame case. My suggestion is to take this case to the Help Desk and see if someone can propose an answer based on the Manual of Style. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC) Closing comment: Use of the day before the retirement date is prohibited by the SYNTHESIS policy, which is part of the No original research policy. SYNTHESIS says: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here. In this case, taking reliable source A, the retirement date, and combining it with reliable source B, the House of Lords Reform Act 2014, to conclude that the last date of actual service is the day before the retirement date is exactly what that policy prohibits. To use that date as the retirement date or, indeed, even as the last day of service, requires a reliable source which directly says that. (I would also, as a lawyer, add that this kind of synthesis is particularly dangerous — though it would be prohibited even if absolutely safe — because there are often wrinkles or subtleties in laws which make the application of them unclear or uncertain even if they appear to be clear and certain on their face or on first blush. This particular law may be less subtle than others, but the general principle is the same.) There's thus no legitimate dispute here and nothing to discuss here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 23:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.