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Important notes:

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(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

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is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

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Information for administrators processing requests

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Grandmaster

Closed with advice to both parties. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Grandmaster

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

18 March 2023 Grandmaster is placed on indefinite probation, which encourages to impose an indefinite topic ban if the user is found to be edit warring within the area of dispute.
27 January 2024 Grandmaster changes "United Nations in Azerbaijan" to just "United Nations" without a consensus or explaining why, so I restored it.
1 February 2024 Grandmaster reverts "in Azerbaijan" again and 10 minutes later started a talk page discussion, but there was still no consensus to revert this again in the first place.
4 November 2023 Grandmaster missuses a UNHCR source to claim there are no incidents of violence against the Armenian population. The UNHCR source is referring to over a week after the offensive, as explained on the talk page.
3 February 2024 Grandmaster is still making false attributions to UNHCR. Claims the report found no evidence of violence or forceful expulsion, which is a blatant lie contradicted by pages 2 and 17 of the UNHCR report (I will provide quotes below in 'Additional comments').

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

18 February 2022 indefinitely topic-banned from AA2

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 18 February 2022 by Rosguill (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

On page 2 of the UNHCR Observations on the Human Rights Situation report (which Grandmaster keeps referring to as a "fact-finding mission" despite it never using that phrase), it is stated: "the security and stability in and around the Karabakh region, including the human rights situation of its population, were continuously undermined ... The recent tragic mass displacement of Karabakh Armenians following Azerbaijan’s military action of 19 and 20 September 2023 should be seen in this context." And page 17 states: "the number of wounded civilians exceeded 40 persons, including 13 children, while there were 10 confirmed civilian deaths, including 5 children as of September 20. However, the Ombuds noted that information about casualties was difficult to obtain because of the paralysis of the de facto authorities at that time. The Ombuds also referred to alleged violence and signs of torture/mutilation among the reported 14 dead bodies that were transferred to Armenia".

But somehow Grandmaster is using this source to deny that the Armenian population were victims of violence and forcefully expelled. Since this is not the first time Grandmaster has quoted this source out of context to POV push false claims, as previously pointed out to them, this appears to be intentional, or at least Grandmaster does not read/understand the source states, which is also very disruptive. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: There have now been multiple incidents of Grandmaster breaking NPOV with just this UNHCR source alone. Another example, here is how Grandmaster interpreted the source:

The Commissioner also stated that all displaced persons have the right to return to their homes, regardless of whether they have been displaced internally or across borders

Here is what the source actually stated:

The Commissioner stressed that recently-displaced Karabakh Armenians in Armenia should be given the possibility of returning in safety and dignity – even if it seems hypothetical for most at the moment

This isn't just a content dispute, it is the deliberate manipulation of sources to publish false information.

And is the removal of this sourced content also POV pushing? Grandmaster removed an accredited peer reviewed academic journal because there was "no consensus among the sources", but did not provide any reliable secondary sources with opposing views. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see Grandmaster is pointing to different sentence, but the full context of the UNHCR source is the commissioner was speaking hypothetically. Grandmaster nitpicked the source to imply something completely different. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firefangledfeathers In earlier incidents of Grandmaster misusing sources to deny the Armenian population was victim of violence, I did not open a case, I just brought it to Grandmaster's attention.[1][2] This was the same with other users who also noticed Grandmaster citing UN sources out of context.[3] Even though it was brought to Grandmaster's attention several times that the sources weren't being accurately reflected, the POV pushing to deny the atrocities did not stop. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[4]

Discussion concerning Grandmaster

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Grandmaster

This was my first edit, which was partially reverted by KhndzorUtogh, who said that there was no explanation for it. I rolled it back with an explanation in the edit summary, and I also started a discussion at talk. [5] As one could see from that discussion, we agreed to leave it at "UN in Azerbaijan", and I made no further reverts. So I don't think this is something worth escalating to an AE report, it was just a content dispute that was resolved at talk.

Point 4, I only quoted the UNHCR representative who literally said: "there were no recorded incidents or cases of mistreatment against people on the move". I don't see how accurately quoting a source could be a violation. Btw, this information was removed by KhndzorUtogh [6] without a consensus, despite an RFC on a related page resulting in an overwhelming support for inclusion of the information from the UN. I started another RFC on that page to resolve the dispute. [7]

Point 5, about this comment, indeed, neither the UN, nor CoE Commissioner confirmed any violence against civilian population. KhndzorUtogh selectively quotes the CoE source, trying to present it as something written in the CoE voice, while in reality the CoE commissioner only conveys the information provided by the Ombuds of Armenia, but makes no assessment of the veracity of those claims. KhndzorUtogh omitted the beginning of the sentence, which starts with "She (Ombuds of Armenia) reported that the number of"... The CoE commissioner came to a conclusion that Karabakh Armenian population left because they "found themselves abandoned without any reliable security or protection guarantees by any party". One can see from the discussion on renaming the article that my opinion on the proposed title was shared by other editors as well, as the discussion ended with no consensus on changing the article title to "ethnic cleansing", as KhndzorUtogh proposed. In any case, this was also a content dispute that was resolved at talk. My understanding of the outcome of the recent AE case on KhndzorUtogh is that users are advised against taking every minor disagreement to the AE.

Regarding this edit, KhndzorUtogh actually cites a wrong part of the text, and then accuses me of "deliberate manipulation". The part that I quoted is this:

the Commissioner wishes to reiterate that all persons displaced by the long-lasting conflict have the right to return to their homes or places of habitual residence, regardless of whether they have been displaced internally or across borders. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan have the obligation to ensure that any return is voluntary and that they are carried out under conditions of safety and dignity. See Clause 46 [8]

Regarding this single revert, as was discussed here, there is no consensus among the reliable sources to call this event an ethnic cleansing. It should be demonstrated that "ethnic cleansing" is what the event is generally referred to by the majority of reliable sources to claim it as a fact in the infobox. Grandmaster 08:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KU cites as evidence of my misbehavior his and another user's objections to inclusion of a UN mission report. I started 2 RFCs, where the community disagreed with their arguments. [9] [10] Grandmaster 23:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This situation was actually discussed here: [11] I brought up the issue of stonewalling by KU (and some admins agreed that there was stonewalling), and when FFF asked about my revert, I provided my explanation. I will repeat it here. Some users objected to inclusion of UN mission reports on a related page Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. I started an RFC on whether the UN information should be included, and the overwhelming community consensus was it should be. Since Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians and 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh are pretty much the same article split in 2, I believe consensus applies to both articles. When I included the UN info in the second article, it was reverted by BM who stated in his edit summary that its place implies that it serves as a rebuttal to the claim by Manasyan, but its date is wrong for it to do so. As one can see my edit summary, I put all the sources in chronological order, added date to UNHCR report, thinking that it would address his concerns. But when the same user removed the content second time [12], I continued the discussion at talk.

The discussion was stale when I restored the content on 21 December 2023, as no one responded for about a week. The last comment by BM before my revert was on 12 December 2023, and by KU on 15 December 2023. KU claimed that the info was "dated", and when asked which Wikipedia rule requires to use only "up to date" info, KU referred to MOS:DATED, which in fact is not a rule, but a guidance on how to format articles, and it says quite the opposite, that the information needs to be dated precisely. I will leave it to admins to decide whether it was a WP:CIR situation or something else. After he was explained that MOS does not apply here, KU disappears for 7 days. On 20 December 2023 I asked if there were any objections to inclusion of the content. [13] I waited another day, no one responded, and only then I restored the content. Then on 22 December 2023 KU reappears, reverts me and states that he was objecting. In order to resolve the dispute I started a second RFC on the same source that awaits closure. [14] I believe 1 week is a reasonable time to assume that the inclusion of the content gets no objections, and I asked on talk before restoring it. Moreover, I started 2 RFCs to resolve the disputes, despite obvious stonewalling by KU. If 1 week is not sufficient to assume that my edit is not disputed, then what is the advised wait time? Grandmaster 09:04, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Clerk notes

Grandmaster, your comment added here took you over the word limit. Since no one has responded, I removed it. Please feel free to restore a shortened version that stays under the limit, or to request a word limit extension (with an explanation of why it's needed). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I trimmed my response to 500 words, if I counted correctly. I hope this resolves the problem. Thank you. Grandmaster 15:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does, and thank you. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added a short comment, I hope it won't be a problem if it exceeds my word limit by a few words. Grandmaster 23:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm granting Grandmaster an additional 200 words to respond to the additional diffs I brought up below. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I will provide my explanation for the diffs that you presented soon. Please wait with the decision until I do. Grandmaster 08:00, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Grandmaster

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I see a lot of daylight between no edit warring probation and a single revert days after the initial edit. This is edit warring probation, not 0RR. The rest looks like a content dispute that should be handled through the normal channels, unless there is much stronger evidence of NPOV violations not presented. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not seeing a violation here. One single revert is not edit warring. Discussion is happening on the talkpage, and the rest is a content dispute. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's concerning to see KU bring an editing restriction violation case like this. Very recently, a similar case against KU was closed with no sanction, since we generally ask that editors who notice editing restriction violations request a self-reversion. I should hope that KU would extend the grace that has recently been extended to him. I would feel differently if GM had a pattern of violations, but we have not presented with evidence of that. I may have more thoughts later, still digging through some diffs. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've almost finished digging and have some evidence I'd like to present soon. Should be up within 9 hours. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree fully with FFF above. I am slightly confused as to why neither GM's 2022 TBAN nor its lifting can be found in the AE log, but I assume that if that TBAN was still in place someone would have mentioned it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing a series of actions by GM that concern me.
1. 09:45, 4 November: GM adds a statement from a UNHCR official
2. 11:11, 4 November: GM restores the info, it having been reverted an hour earlier by another editor (this is KU's fourth diff, btw)
3. Soon after #2, the other editor starts Talk:2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 3#United Nations Refugee Agency statement to discuss the disputed content, and multiple editors—including GM—participate over the next several weeks
4. 09:58, 21 December 2023: GM restores the content with the edit summary "Restoring per talk"
The talk page discussion as of #4 looked like this. Two editors (including GM) supported the content, and two opposed it, so it's not clear that consensus supported the addition. Therefore, I have some questions for the other responding admins:
1. Is this edit warring?
2. If so, is it too stale to enact ArbCom's suggested sanction?
3. If so, is any other action warranted to discourage this conduct in the future?
I'm at A) yes, B) not sure, and C) I have some ideas about if we say yes to B. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will note this comment from 20 December, where Grandmaster stated that they were going to restore the content. The user waited about a day, and nobody objected. I'm not persuaded that this is edit warring in the sense of trying to change the page through sheer number of edits, and I don't think the ArbCom suggested sanction is applicable here as such. With respect to FireFangledFeathers's question is any other action warranted to discourage this conduct in the future, I think that some cordial advice along the lines of what we gave KU in the prior thread might be the way to go. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok! My thought is to give advice along the lines of "Reverting more than once to your preferred version of content, even if some time has passed, can be considered edit warring. Given the heavy penalty that awaits any finding of edit warring, such actions are best done when consensus is clearly in your favor." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds ok, though I do have some tweaks as follows:
When your edits in this topic area are challenged, you should continue to open up discussions on the talk page to resolve non-trivial disputes. When those discussions do not clearly attain consensus one way or the other, please be mindful that you should not make edits to enforce your preferred version, as this can be considered edit warring even when some time has passed since a discussion's start. Given the heavy penalty that awaits you following any finding of edit warring, you are advised to not make reverts that restore your preferred version in these sorts of situations, except when consensus among discussion participants is clearly in your favor.
How does this sound to you?
— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. I also plan to give KU advice along the lines of "it would be great not to see you around AE anytime soon". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:23, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we not get into Arbcom-style statement crafting, please? I think "don't restore an edit until there's consensus" will get the same point across. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 04:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine too. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:33, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both proposals actually go a bit further than I had intended. I think it's fine for GM to boldly add or remove content, and I think it's permissible (though not great) for him to revert once when it's challenged. It's the second revert that makes it seem edit warry to me, implicating the "a series of back-and-forth reverts" and "repeatedly override each other's contributions" parts of the policy. If we're looking for brevity, I could shorten my proposal to
Don't revert more than once to your preferred version of content, even if some time has passed, unless you have clear consensus.
Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
GM's most recent response (which doubly exceeded the allotted words), does not change my view here. Pinging The Wordsmith and Vanamonde93 to see if they have further thoughts, and to see if they would be okay with an "advice only" close. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:12, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still works for me. I'm not convinced that either party is doing the best they could to hash things out on the talk page, but it's difficult to fault someone for being bolder than they ought when their opposite number isn't engaging. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:51, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also comfortable with an advisory closure here, and I'd prefer it include advice for the filer as well per your earlier statement. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 04:41, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appeal request by GoodDay

Appeal request by GoodDay (talk)

Statement by GoodDay

I understand the mistakes I made & certainly recognise that the topic-in-general is indeed contentious. Should administrators choose to lift my t-ban from GenSex? I can easily promise, it's a topic area I will not be combative in (editing pages & posting at talkpages) & would refrain from commenting on other editors. If any questions, please feel free to ping me. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Here's my Failed appeal & my successful amendment request. On the latter, I believe I've proven my self-restraint, since. GoodDay (talk) 20:48, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I got into a dispute with another editor at the talkpage of Jordan Peterson, in the summer of 2022. Lost my temper, when the other editor kept 'closing' my posts there. In frustration, I used the 'wrong' pronoun when describing the editor, to another editor. A) I should've stayed away from the topic-in-question, B) Should'n't of reverted the editor's closing of my post there & walked away from the discussion & C) Should not have used an undesirable 'pronoun' describing the other editor-in-question. GenSex is under CTOP & one should walk softly when involved in any dispute, in that topic area. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To use a sports analogy. How can I prove I'm able to play the game, if I'm not allowed to play the game? GoodDay (talk) 21:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown: I've been closely watched since the t-ban was put in place. I'm aware that this would continue, should my t-ban be lifted. Also, I would avoid the two editors-in-question, in that area. GoodDay (talk) 07:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith: At the moment, there's no particular article I wish to work on, directly related to GenSex. Over-all, should my t-ban be lifted? I think the best approach for me, would be to gradually (but lightly) get involved in the topic area. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sideswipe9th: I don't wish to get involved in discussions at WP:LGBT 'or' start or join any (potentially) heated discussions, concerning LGBT/GenSex topics. Two bio examples - I would avoid such discussions should they arise at Jordan Peterson or J.K. Rowling & for example - I'd avoid general discussions like deadnaming. A further example of my self-restraint abilities, concerning CTOP? - I'm not t-banned from Palestine/Israel-related pages, but I don't get involved with the (potentially) heated discussions around that general-topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, at the moment there isn't any major discussions occurring in relation to GenSex. So far, I haven't come across any pages that need corrections directly related to GenSex. I don't have WP:LGBT on my watchlist, so it's highly likely I'd miss such discussions or notifications. GoodDay (talk) 20:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dennis Brown

The topic ban was over 18 months ago, and from what I can tell, GoodDay has more or less stayed out of trouble in the interim. It is my nature to give people second chances (or WP:ROPE) after a period of time. I haven't followed or commented much on his situation since I put the ban in place, to be honest. Officially, I will be "neutral" to the idea, and would probably say that if you are going to remove the topic ban, it should be understood that "while indefinite doesn't mean infinite", it probably will if there is another problem in the future. The entire topic area is a minefield, and I would recommend (as I did when I instituted the topic ban) that GoodDay still avoid Sideswipe9th & Newimpartial, if the consensus is that removal is in the best interest of the encyclopedia. If lifted, GoodDay should be aware that many eyes will be on their edits, and the threshold to block or reinstitute the ban will be quite low. And if a consensus decides to leave the tban in place, that is also fine. Again, I really don't have strong feelings about it either way. Dennis Brown 2¢ 07:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sideswipe9th

Quickly on the timeline, GoodDay was originally TBANed in July 2022, he made and withdrew an appeal at AE in January 2023, made and withdrew an ARCA appeal in February 2023 after being advised to file it here, made a successful partial AE appeal in February 2023, followed by a failed appeal in June 2023. At present, GoodDay is permitted to make edits to articles that would be covered under GENSEX, so long as they are entirely uncontroversial (such as formatting or fixing typos) and do not touch on anything substantively related to gender or sexuality.

GoodDay, you said in your reply to The Wordsmith that you would like to gradually (but lightly) get involved in the topic area. How do you envisage that occurring? Are you wanting to get involved with discussions at WT:LGBT? One of my concerns from the January 2023 appeal is that, at the time at least, you had a tendency to make short, terse, and at best tangentially related borderline forum style comments on article talk pages (for examples, see my comment in that appeal). If this appeal is lifted, are you endeavouring to not make that type of talk page contribution going forward? Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:00, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GoodDay: Ok, then what exactly do you want to do if the TBAN is lifted? What does gradually (but lightly) get involved in the topic area mean in practice? What do you want to do, that you can't do now? Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:10, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal request by GoodDay

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal request by GoodDay

Do you have any of the links to your earlier appeals? You said I understand the mistakes I made but haven't explained this mistakes, or how you will avoid them in the future. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm inclined to extend another chance here, now that Dennis has chimed in. @GoodDay: what do you intend to do in this topic area if the ban is lifted? Any articles you'd like to work on in particular? The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely not impressed with the situation that led to this topic ban, but it does seem to have led to some reflection and learning. Given that, I think I would be inclined to give a second chance here with a clear understanding that if there are any other problems, there will not be a third. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless any uninvolved admin objects within the next day or so, I intend to close this request with the topic ban being lifted. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per our banning policy, [t]he measure of a ban is that even if the editor were to make good or good-faith edits, permitting them to edit in those areas is perceived to pose enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, to the page or to the project, that they may not edit at all. I'm not particularly convinced that we presently require that measure with GoodDay. The user is, exceptionally, already permitted to nibble around the edges of this topic in ways that are not likely to be contested (i.e. gnomish edits). The editor has, over the past year, appeared to have made edits in other contentious areas in a manner consistent with our civility norms and our norms against disruptive editing. The reflection above seems honest. I think we should give them a second chance here, and that the ban should be lifted along those lines. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nishidani

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Drsmoo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:General_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[15] "oh goody. I can't wait to perve on the discussion there when it gets to his beliefs about the genetic superiority of his own ethnic group . Dumb goyim beware:)" - Used the phrase "Dumb Goyim beware" to impugn a living person, perhaps more broadly.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[16]
[17]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Nishidani wrote the phrase "Dumb Goyim", which is found in Mein Kampf, and frequently found on antisemitic hate sites. Bret Stephens, who Nishidani is commenting on, never used this phrase. I can only assume he is using it in the same way it is frequently found on hate sites, as a way to claim Jews hate non-Jews.

Evidence of the phrase being Antisemitic:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mapping_the_New_Left_Antisemitism/BUTREAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT108&printsec=frontcover] - "In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the term 'dumb goyim' to refer to gullible gentiles who, thinking well of the Jews, were manipulated by them. He wrote that 'the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim.' This antisemitic trope is also found in Tom Paulin's poem Killed in the crossfire."

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/actap-2021-2002/html - " In all of these cases, the ultimate responsibility of the “national decadence” or globalization falls on a single figure, depicted simultaneously as unitary and recognisable – “the Jew”, the Judischer Großunternehmer (as businessman or investor, Figure 4), Soros or Sutherland –, multifaceted and omnipresent, more or less explicitly identified as the controller of the so-called “Stupid Goyim” (Figures 5 and 6). This notion, that of the “dumb Goyim”, present through different variations, latent or explicit, named as such or suggested through the depiction of the servile Gentiles under “Freemason and Jewish commands”, syncretic or specific, can be seen in the particularly ferocious classic depictions of the Nazi propagandist Philipp Rupprecht alias Fips in Der Stürmer and is nowadays commonly present in the Social Media, as seen in notorious caricatures from US cartoonist Ben Garrison, amongst others." Drsmoo (talk) 17:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/23/arts/connections-hateful-name-calling-vs-calling-for-hateful-action.html - “But that poem's language is loaded with bigoted baggage: it speaks in the name of a we -- dumb goys -- who are no longer taken in by the lying phrase and weasel language of Zionists. These intimations of Jewish arrogance, lies and cheating tap into ancient tropes.” Drsmoo (talk) 19:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://newrepublic.com/article/77373/the-living-lie-antisemitism-england - “But “goys” widens the target still further, declaring that it is Jews in general that Paulin has in his sights. “Goys”—not the proper Hebrew plural goyim—is a word used “by diaspora Jews, as reported by anti-Semites.” Moreover, “it reprises the anti-Semitic trope that Jews privately view gentiles with contempt. The disparagement of ‘goyim’ is a central trope in the Protocols [of the Elders of Zion]: The goyim are a flock of sheep and we are their wolves.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsmoo (talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Under_Postcolonial_Eyes/I1wqPVsxP-YC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA25&printsec=frontcover "We should note that the phrase "dumb goys" is actually borrowed from an English translation of Mein Kampf, thus revealing the poem's underlying antisemitic discourse that perversely ascribes to Jews Hitler's view of them:”

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_State_of_the_Jews/tpcuDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA155&printsec=frontcover "Not a few readers now returned to Paulin's February 2001 scribblings on Israel, quoted above, and noticed that their key phrase of ironically flattering self-mockery about being deceived by the wily Zionists came from none other than Hitler himself. In a passage from Mein Kampf familiar to every student of this subject” Drsmoo (talk) 01:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, read the actual source, "Dumb Goyim" is described as an "antisemitic trope." Which it is. Drsmoo (talk) 17:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC) The issue is not criticism of Bret Stephens, the issue is Nishidani's use of a common antisemitic trope, which is either being used to impugn Bret Stephens, or Jews more broadly. Drsmoo (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Objective3000, The phrase “dumb goyim” is an antisemitic slur. It is used all the time on hate sites as such, as is noted in reliable sources. It is described as an antisemitic slur in reliable sources. That you find the slur “less than helpful”, but the calling out of its usage “unacceptable”, is bizarre. Drsmoo (talk) 19:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000: I don’t read hate sites either, but I’m unfortunately familiar with antisemitic tropes, as are the sources who note that this is one. Drsmoo (talk) 19:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Kite: "increasingly strident claims that it can only be an anti-semitic slur and therefore it must be one here" I used the word "assume" because it's not a fact and I can't read Nishidani's mind. And I'm fully aware of the context. Nishidani was criticizing Bret Stephen's own outrageous views. In doing so, he sarcastically used the phrase "Dumb Goyim", which is a known antisemitic trope, but which unfortunately, whether intentional or not, added an additional layer of uncomfortable meaning to the reply. It is possible that Nishidani is unaware of this trope, which is why I repeatedly asked him to strike it before filing this. But that trope should not be on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IOHANNVSVERVS: You’re saying the phrase is mild. It’s not mild. Perhaps you and some others are unfamiliar with it though. I explained how and why the phrase is antisemitic with reliable sources, rather than commenting on Nishidani. I asked Nishidani to remove it, which was not done. The argument from some seems to be that the issue is me reporting a user for posting a phrase that’s known to be antisemitic, and citing sources explaining that the phrase is known to be antisemitic.

To summarize, the phrase IS antisemitic, and should never be on Wikipedia. I’m not making any comments on another user, only on the nature of the phrase he posted, which is absolutely unacceptable. Drsmoo (talk) 21:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IOHANNVSVERVS:Please read the filing. There are four reliable sources that explain the significance of the phrase for those who may be unfamiliar with it. Drsmoo (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nableezy: Please read the next line of the source you’re saying is “moot”. Yes there is a standard. Phrases that are directly described as being antisemitic can’t be used on Wikipedia. When an editor is asked to remove an antisemitic trope, and doesn’t, they get reported. Drsmoo (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000: "Obscure rationales"? Rationales for what? These are all normal, scholarly sources describing the history and meaning of this phrase. Nishidani still has not struck out his comment. Drsmoo (talk) 02:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone explain how bringing an Arbitration Enforcement request can be viewed as a “personal attack” or violation of AGF? Isn’t this forum specifically for accusing users of violating the rules? I don’t see how the argument can be made that the context of “Jews privately view gentiles with contempt” couldn’t apply in this context with regard to Bret Stephens and the IQ article. I also want to note that this thread is currently being discussed off wiki, including personal attacks made against me. Drsmoo (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: The thread was derailed when Nishidani jumped in, and used the phrase “dumb Goyim”. Your bad faith allegation of “rhetorical games” is incorrect now, and was incorrect Then . According to some editors, not only am I not permitted to cite multiple sources, at AE, explaining why a phrase is described as antisemitic, but I’m to be subjected to baseless allegations of bad faith while doing so. Note that Nishidani has still not stricken the passage. Drsmoo (talk) 17:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith: @ScottishFinnishRadish: I am baffled. I've edited on Wikipedia for 18 years, and aside from some accidental 1rr violations over 10 years ago in that time, I have, to my recollection never had any issues with conduct violations. And my block log is about as good as it gets for frequent I/P editors. Nor have I ever "derailed a discussion", intentionally or otherwise. That is not only factually wrong, it is textbook casting aspersions. Please explain how making false allegations about my editing is acceptable? "Drsmoo derailed the thread by focusing on (false) accusations about the NYT and WaPo being "propaganda."" Really? These were the comments. In a discussion about "facts cited in reliable sources": "I'm sorry that you can't tell facts from propaganda. You might like to read more about it." and "Yor unfaltering belief in "facts established by reliable sources", in the midst of a war propaganda, is amusing." Those false allegations, specifically, are what were challenged. Not any personal attacks, nor casting aspersions .Yes, the claim that reliable sources should be dismissed because of a baseless claim of "war propaganda" needs to be substantiated. If there is a policy stating that one shouldn't engage in substantive discussions about an editors rationale, or that one cannot make accusations in AE, please link me to it, as in 18 years, I have not come across that before. There are always ways to do things better, and I do acknowledge that I could express things more smoothly, perhaps with more detailed posts that acknowledge the points of views of editors I disagree with, ie., the four step refutation, which begins by ensuring that the other editors argument is fully understood.Drsmoo (talk) 21:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: I am responding here, despite being over the limit, because it's important. The claims of propaganda didn't happen in that talk page, they happened in the "Denial of the 7 October attacks" talk page, linked above. They were also accompanied by direct personal attacks. Unfortunately, that context was not presented. This thread is being linked to off-wiki. And I am very frustrated to see users jump in and throw baseless accusations and noise, "defending racism?" Kashmiri should substantiate that with any diff in which I did that to any extent whatsoever, ever. There is a LOT of noise in this thread, and I am more than happy to provide the actual context to any allegations, if permitted. Drsmoo (talk) 18:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kashmiri: Please link to a SINGLE diff of mine, ever, where I posted a "defence of racism", if you are unable to find one, please strike your comment. Drsmoo (talk) 19:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith:, @ScottishFinnishRadish:, @Seraphimblade:, am I permitted to link here to the ongoing off-wiki linking to this AE, as well as other links to my posts, including with the stated wish for a "boomerang", that has been occurring since October? Drsmoo (talk)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nishidani&diff=prev&oldid=1207372990

Nishidani

The last time I was reported, I was advised shortly beforehand to retract or else,AE. The complainant was on American time, mid evening. I was on European time, and was snugly abed, remaining so for several hours, and only saw the AE notification 12 or so hours later. Idem here (ergo my silence, Wordsmith, is innocuous). In the present case, I am on Melbourne time, and have been for 2 and a half months, as anyone glancing at my page, as I have grounds to assume Drsmoo does, would know. I wrote the incriminating post towards midnight here, after several versions of a much longer analysis of Bret Stephens status as an 'expert' were paralysed by the flurry of one line exchanges. On this borrowed laptop I cannot copy and paste, so each time I found an edit conflict barring my comment, I had to rewrite it. In the end, After over a half an hour f wasted time, I made my point as briefly as the hyperactivity of exchanges would allow me to make a remark. I would gladly answer any queries if people seriously believe that 'dumb goyim' (I originally wrote something like:'It's somewhat hard to assess Stephens' expertise, at least for a dumb goy like myself!') How that ironic self-putdown can be construed as 'antisemitic' is beyond me.Nishidani (talk) 00:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wordsmith. This may sound contrarian, but I would be dishonest were I to try to wriggle out of a possible sanction by admitting that the irony of my making fun of myself was better refactored because the complainant argues, bewilderingly, that it was antisemitic. I don't know, not being able to check the log, how many times AE has been called on to try and skewer me with wildly trivial 'evidence' often with this defamatory insinuation. Certainly the plaintiff here has done so several times.I could reconstruct the full version of what I originally wrote about the claim Bret Stephens is an authority or expert, when he is on record as asserting the superiority as original thinkers of the ethnic group he identifies himself with, but such an excursus would be inappropriate here, and I will make that point, covid permitting, on my talk page under the notification.Regards Nishidani (talk) 07:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it will make someone happy, for the record, I readily admit that (a) I forced myself to read Mein Kampf about 4 decades ago and that (culpably in my book) I never retained an impression that 'dumb goyim' was a uniquely Hitlerian coinage. Unfamiliar with the vast gutter of antisemitic ranting sites, I was unaware also of its currency there. I do read widely in (Jewish) American literature, and a phrase like that is one I associate with the exuberant caricatures of Philip Roth ('This guy is rich. A real dumb muscle-bound goy. A stupid shagetz par excellence.' )etc. The key point in this misprision is the difference between our respective reading practices, and the consequent differences between how we respond to phrases like that. Drsmoo thought I had Hitler in mind, whereas I had very funny portraits of non-Jews in mind, of a kind great (Jewish) writers have drawn when skewering some fictive character type in their own community.Nishidani (talk) 07:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a brief note on 'inflammatory'. The often sniffishly pompous and turgid prose I resort to is the defensive outcome of, decades back, trying to insulate myself against a natural tendency to use robustly comical language of the kind that almost immediately lends itself to complaints. I come from an Irish cultural milieu as exuberantly rich in self-mocking jokes about the proverbial dumbness of the Irish as is Yiddish with its inexhaustible stores of jokes about fellow Jews. I don't recall anyone in my background being upset at hearing an outsider tell us an 'anti'-Irish joke (Why are there so few lawyers in Ireland? Because Micks can never pass the bar').When my auntie mentioned how a dear neighbour had contracted pig's face disease, and I asked her whether or not we should get her some oinkment', this wasn't taken as taking a shot at the unfortunate. While we have general rules for verbal etiquette, over-sensitivity, particularly ethnic defensiveness can drive out the occasional light touch or ironies that in any sane society ease the stress of our otherwise focused and voluntary workloads.Nishidani (talk) 03:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

"Dumb goyim" is clearly a tongue-in-cheek reference to a column Mr Stephens wrote that was widely derided as advancing eugenic theories, eg here, here, here, here, here, here, and the tendentious claim that it is antisemitic on its face is the height of bad faith. Nishidani did not impugn anybody by using that phrase, that is yet another example of a bad faith assumption by Drsmoo. Drsmoo should be sanctioned for disrupting the talk page by making repeated bad faith claims of racism, eg here and here. Shouting racist when you cant respond to somebody's point may be an acceptable tactic in some places, but Im pretty sure it is not here. This should be closed with a swift boomerang topic ban. nableezy - 17:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence bit is absurd, that is evidence that that usage was antisemitic, Nishidani is not making the same reference and repeatedly claiming somebody has a Hitlerian intent is a straightforward personal attack that should be met with sanctions. nableezy - 17:30, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lets break this down:

Drsmoo: Bret Stephens is a reliable source

Nishidani: oh the guy that claimed that Ashkenazi Jews are gentically intellectually superior to all other races?

Drsmoo: Thats racist!

Drsmoo: proceeds to AE

nableezy - 17:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, saying that gullible gentiles who, thinking well of the Jews, were manipulated by them may be, but that was not Nishidani's meaning and you cannot claim that any usage of a phrase reflects that one particular meaning. It clearly is in reference to Stephens column that advanced the idea that Ashkenazi are genetically intellectually superior to others. You, unable to respond to that point, went with the "thats racist" defense. nableezy - 17:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There continue to be assumptions of bad faith and claims of racism on this page, and the user making them should be blocked or topic banned for doing so. Im done here though. nableezy - 17:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith you are taking the claim that any usage of that phrase is supposedly unacceptable. Im pretty sure the word Germany was in Mein Kampf too, is using that word antisemitic now? This is asinine, the second google result I get for "dumb goyim" is Michael Rapaport using the phrase unironically, Rapaport being supposedly a champion for Israel. You cannot claim a racist intent without any basis at all, and the usage here is obviously in reference to Stephens saying that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically smarter than others, making the others (the goyim) "dumb". It is absurd to claim this is "not acceptable". Its acceptable to uncritically push for using a source somebody who has written about the "disease of the Arab mind" and promoted eugenics? This is insane. nableezy - 17:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It isnt without context. when it gets to his beliefs about the genetic superiority of his own ethnic group is the context. Stephens claimed that Ashkenazi Jews are inherently smarter than others. Smarter and dumber are antonyms, as are Jews and Goyim. Stephens said this subset of Jews are genetically superior to other people. Nishidani internalized that to his being dumber as not being an Ashkenazi Jew. Youre basically imposing a standard on what phrases may or may not be used on the basis of some other person's bad faith assumption, something we famously have a rule against. nableezy - 18:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith is repeatedly alleging a racist or even Nazi intent not then its own issue that should be examined? Is it ok to make such an accusation without basis? Is saying on this board I can only assume he is using it in the same way it is frequently found on hate sites, as a way to claim Jews hate non-Jews. not a blatant violation of WP:NPA? nableezy - 19:44, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Think the same applies to Coretheapple's repeated insistence that this is "antisemitic phraseology" and "antisemitic verbiage". And Drsmoo's own sources contradict his position here. In one it argues that using goys instead of the proper Hebrew plural goyim (Goys”—not the proper Hebrew plural goyim—is a word used “by diaspora Jews, as reported by anti-Semites.”, Nishidani wrote goyim rendering that point moot). The others appear to be discussing usage of dumb goyim as similar to useful idiot, but that was not Nishidani's usage. And that is obvious from the context in which it was used. Repeatedly making such slanderous claims against an editor should result in sanctions, and that goes for Coretheapple as well. nableezy - 22:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read it Drsmoo, and it does not support your tendentious claim that any usage of the term "dumb Goyim" in any context is antisemitic or that it advances antisemitic tropes, as Nishidani was clearly not using it in a way that reprises the anti-Semitic trope that Jews privately view gentiles with contempt. It is used in a response to Bret Stephens saying that group A (Ashkenazi Jews) is genetically superior intellectually to group B (the other, or the goyim), that group B is dumber than group A. He is not refer[ing] to gullible gentiles who, thinking well of the Jews, were manipulated by them. None of that applies to what he wrote, and lest we forget the person who you now say holds outrageous views is the person you were presenting as a reliable source who should be cited in an encyclopedia article for their opinion. nableezy - 00:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish I read the parts of Trials of the Diaspora that mention anything close to dumb goyim, they have a bit on a poem that uses "dumb goys" and says It reprises the anti-Semitic trope that Jews privately view gentiles with contempt. The disparagement of ‘goyim’ is a central trope in the Protocols: The goyim are a flock of sheep and we are their wolves, our purpose is to turn the goyim into unthinking, submissive brutes, etc. Thats the trope, that gentiles are being played by Jews into doing their bidding. Nishidanis comment did no such thing and repeatedly portraying it as Hitlerian is way beyond any battleground behavior you think exists in objecting to that. nableezy - 16:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

A quite ridiculous waste of time filing. The talk page discussion, Talk:UNRWA_October 7 controversy#Scahill and Stephens speaks for itself.Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afraid I am still unable to see any merit whatsoever in this filing. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonable to see the use of "dumb goyim" as antisemitic As I asked on the talk page at the time, am still waiting for an explanation of how that works exactly.Selfstudier (talk) 15:07, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

It’s a sensitive area and perhaps Nishidani’s bit of sarcasm was less than helpful. OTOH, Drsmoo’s repeated references to Mein Kampf, anti-Semitism, and statement that they can only assume he is using it in the same way it is frequently found on hate sites is wholly unacceptable in the discussion and a serious mistake to bring here. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drsmoo: Most of us do not read hate sites. Here, we assume good faith. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Coretheapple: Yes we must take pains to avoid a hostile environment. I'd say the first step is for Drsmoo to WP:DROPTHESTICK and stop insisting this is an example of anti-semitism. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would someone please ask Drsmoo to stop digging up obscure rationales for accusing others of hate? Wrong forum, wrong site. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonable to see the use of "dumb goyim" as antisemitic. Only if the context suggests such. If I may, it has been said: “Separate text from context and all that remains is a con.” O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coretheapple

Are we really debating over whether a crude antisemitic epithet is a crude antisemitic epithet? There is no excuse for it. Nishidani should be, at a minimum, indefinitely topic banned from I/P. We would not permit racist comments on articles on Africa, and the same principle should apply to articles on Jewish related topics. Zero tolerance should apply here too. Coretheapple (talk) 19:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Kite I beg to differ. There is no such thing as an inoffensive, sarcastic or jolly use of "dumb goyim." The article in question is not about use of the term "dumb goyim" or a user thereof. This is an article about alleged UNRWA participation in the Oct. 7 attacks in Israel. That is a terribly grave subject. A review of the exchange in question indicates it was introduced gratuitously. Those discussions are heated enough without that type of offensive language and it is not acceptable on I/P talk pages or any subject areas that is contentious. Coretheapple (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A word about "context." I'm seeing "context" used to justify or excuse use of "dumb goyim." Another "context" is the high temperature in the talk pages of these articles. These are not chats at a local bar. They are discussions concerning articles of deep seriousness. For instance, as has been discussed in the past, use of "Zionist" as a derogatory term, as in "Zionist entity" for "Israel." "Zionist narrative" for "pro-Israeli narrative." Such terminology contributes to a incendiary atmosphere in this topic area. That too is context that should be taken into consideration. Coretheapple (talk) 21:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IOHANNVSVERVS Re your reply to me and the comment that follows, I would be very careful not to go overboard in "jiu-jitsuing" this editor's complaint against him, I think we must take pains to avoid creating a hostile atmosphere for editors who wish to report use of antisemitic phraseology on article discussion pages. Coretheapple (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000 The user is reporting antisemitic verbiage on a talk page. What do you want him to say? That it isn't antisemitic? Coretheapple (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

Clearly an inappropriate and inflammatory thing for Nishidani to have said. Though an instance of incivility, it is rather mild/minor/insignificant in my opinion.

I'm personally more concerned about the unfounded accusations of antisemitism, something all too common in the I/P CTOP. Especially concerning to me is that the filer did not simply report concerns of potential antisemitism, which could have been reasonable, but that they are arguing with other editors and insisting that the intent was antisemitic (even suggesting that it is somehow comparable to the antisemitism of Mein Kampf) is what makes this filing even vexatious in my opinion.

Users should be encouraged to report misconduct even if their reports/concerns end up being unfounded, as long as these reports are made in good faith. In this case however, it is the argumentation and insistence that Nishidani is antisemitic that clearly and starkly violate the guideline of WP:AGF. It's ironic, even contradictory, that Drsmoo claims to be concerned about Nishidani "impugning a living person", while they repeatedly here impugn Nishidani. To reiterate, raising concerns of antisemitism here could have been understandable, even if misguided, but arguing and insisting that significant antisemitism occurred in this case is wholly inappropriate as the basis for this accusation is extremely tenuous. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drsmoo, you don't seem to be taking anyone's feedback into account here. The word "goyim" refers to non-Jews so I don't see how "dumb goyim" could logically be antisemitic in itself.

@Coretheapple, I agree with your statement that "these are not chats at a local bar. They are discussions concerning articles of deep seriousness", and with your concerns about "contributing to a incendiary atmosphere in this topic area", but I think unfounded accusations of racism/antisemitism are more inflammatory than Nishidani's comment. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible we are seeing battleground editing here in the form of weaponization of antisemitism accusations, that is: "a bad faith charge of antisemitism against a person for political purposes, particularly with respect to criticism of Israel." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:55, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drsmoo, regarding "There are four reliable sources that explain the significance of the phrase for those who may be unfamiliar with it", I'll relook at these, thank you. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having reviewed the sources, I still don't see evidence of antisemitism. In one source, Drsmoo highlights "This notion, that of the “dumb Goyim”" and "can be seen in the particularly ferocious classic depictions of the Nazi propagandist Philipp Rupprecht", but doesn't highlight the part about "the depiction of the servile Gentiles under “[...] Jewish commands”", something totally absent from Nishidani's comment.

I understand that racism is often promoted via dogwhistles, but I reiterate that while suspicions of Nishidani's comment may be reasonable, the severe accusations made here without acknowledging or taking care for the possibility of innocence are not appropriate and I still find them to be concerning. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk)

I'd just like to say that I don't understand why I'm being accused of battleground editing by ScottishFinnishRadish here. I don't see how my statement, described as "Popping up at AE about a dispute you weren't involved with to spend 500 words repeating that you think someone's behavior was bad", is a "great example" of battleground editing or in any way problematic.

I've been given a word count extension to add this to my statement, and further discussion about this can be had at my talk page where I strongly encourage feedback about my conduct if anyone else (especially any administrator) has similar concerns or any advice for me. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra

Drsmoo writes: "Nishidani wrote the phrase "Dumb Goyim", which is found in Mein Kampf, and frequently found on antisemitic hate sites. Bret Stephens, who Nishidani is commenting on, never used this phrase. I can only assume he is using it in the same way it is frequently found on hate sites, as a way to claim Jews hate non-Jews."

I have edited Israel/Palestine articles on Wikipedia since 2005, but this is the first time I have heard that saying "Dumb Goyim" is antisemitic. Maybe I read too few antisemitic hate sites? Or haven't studied Mein Kampf well enough? I suspect I share those characteristics with Nishidani.

It seems to me that more and more things are defined as "antisemitic", indeed; "Meta is debating whether to more aggressively remove some social media posts containing the word "Zionist" to counter a surge of antisemitism online".[18]. We are not there, yet; I guess I can still use the word "Zionist", without being accused of anti-semitism, but aparently saying "Dumb Goyim" gets you to AE.

Well, I learn something new every day. -Huldra (talk) 23:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

The illogic in this report is impressive. Nishidani used two words that also happened to be used by Adolf Hitler and that's enough evidence that a capital crime has been committed. No thinking required, just 1+1=3. Amazing.

Why didn't Drsmoo cite the mainstream Israeli press instead of Mein Kampf? ("כולנו נהנים לשמוע בדיחות מצחיקות על גויים טיפשים" = "We all enjoy hearing funny jokes about dumb goyim" [19]. To be clear, the writer considers such jokes to be "barbaric", but nevertheless common.) Zero^talk 04:52, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

"Dumb goyim" not listed in the ADL's hate speech database [20], nor on AJC's list [21], nor, across the pond, on the Antisemitism Policy Trust's list [22] (although all three list "the goyim know" meme), nor on Wikipedia's lists of antisemitic tropes or religious slurs. Levivich (talk) 05:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All but one of the examples here of "dumb goyim" being an antisemitic slur are about Tom Paulin's 2001 poem "Killed in the crossfire" which is about the tragically famous Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah. In Paulin's poem, in which he refers to the "Zionist SS," he does use the line "dumb goys," and he's criticized for referencing Hitler's line in Mein Kampf about Zionists securing Western support, "the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim."

Five of the six sources Drsmoo links (Mapping the New Left Antisemitism, NYT, TNR, Under Postcolonial Eyes, The State of the Jews) are all about Paulin's poem. The sole exception is the one 2021 Venegas article which talks about modern right-wingers using the "controlling Jew" trope, and that the "dumb goyim" is a common feature of that trope ("The “Jewish last laugh” of the grinning Jew requires its necessary complementary counterpart, the servile “stupid Goy”, in this case the puppet-president Pedro Sánchez").

Trials of the Diaspora is also talking about Paulin's poem.

That really doesn't mean that "dumb goyim," the two words alone, are a slur. It means it can be used as part of the Jews-are-controlling trope, as it has been used by Hitler, Paulin (according to some), and modern right-wing groups. But none of these sources describe the phrase as antisemitic (because that would makes no sense, because the phrase is calling non-Jews dumb, not calling Jews dumb), and although some uses of the phrase are antisemitic, it doesn't mean this use was antisemitic, nor that every use is antisemitic. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And FWIW, I see the whole "antisemitism" accusation as a way of "latching on" to some statement in order to distract from a content dispute that Drsmoo is losing. Look at Talk:UNRWA October 7 controversy#Scahill and Stephens and notice how the discussion derails from the legitimate (who is an expert) to the illegitimate (antisemitic remark), and despite other editors' attempts to bring it back on track, Drsmoo just sticks to the antisemitism charge (because he's losing the content dispute). I saw this same behavior last week at Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel#Removal of reliably sourced information from the lead, where, again losing a content dispute, Drsmoo derailed the thread by focusing on (false) accusations about the NYT and WaPo being "propaganda." I had words with Drsmoo there about not using "rhetorical games" to derail content discussions, and I see this as another example of that. Levivich (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the two threads linked above and the Oct 7 denial AFD linked below, there's also Talk:Denial of the 7 October attacks#TNT?, which IMO shows the same pattern. Levivich (talk) 19:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sean.hoyland

Perhaps someone could reach out to comedian Ari Shaffir as a subject matter expert to get his view on whether 'There is no such thing as an inoffensive, sarcastic or jolly use of "dumb goyim."' or whether the term is always an antisemitic slur? Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:12, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great to see the Wikimedia Foundation Universal Code of Conduct get a mention. Perhaps more time and energy could be spent on enforcing the part in the 'Unacceptable behaviour' section that prohibits editors from "Systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view..." rather than dealing with cases like this. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:15, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Researcher

Goy by itself is often offensive.

"Dumb goyim" is very offensive, clear to anyone who knows Israel-Palestine history. Go through Google's book results to see how much Hitler's use stands out.

Use of "goyim" in a self-deprecating manner is done by the likes of Goyim Defense League an extremist organisation. GDL and the like use Goyim to refer to themselves in a sarcastic manner.

This language cannot be normalised on Wikipedia, and its use or normalisation is against the Wikimedia Foundation Universal Code of Conduct. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TarnishedPath

The filing of this report by Drsmoo is one of the most extreme examples of assuming bad faith and reach I've seen. To presume that just because Mein Kampf uses two words in a particular manner that every person on the planet using those two words has the same attitudes is ridiculous in the extreme. Drsmoo needs to WP:DROPTHESTICK. TarnishedPath^talk 07:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've just come across this RfC on the Israeli-Hamas war because I was about to participate in it. In one comment Drsmoo is putting words into another editors mouths and then WP:ABF and in the other it is just broad WP:ABF on multiple editors. E.g. "I don't like putting words into peoples mouths, but your argument seems to be that not only should we ignore the wide array of highly reliable sources, but we should also ignore all Israeli eyewitness accounts, and first-responder accounts, because you think they're untrustworthy. That position would not be valid" and "The argument by some editors that we should ignore reliable sources is ridiculous. The argument that we should ignore Israeli civilians and human rights organizations because they are Israeli is unacceptable on Wikipedia".TarnishedPath^talk 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by tgeorgescu

@Nishidani: No comments on the case, just a suggestion to use ChromeOS Flex, since it works very well on old laptops. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by kashmiri

Obviously, "dumb goyim beware" was a tongue-in-cheek summary of Bret Stephens's appalling writeup. It wasn't Nishidani who was racist; it was Stephens who was racist, to the extent that the publisher had to remove part of his article after an outcry[23]. To ridicule racist views is not racist; it's the opposite (although I agree it may not have been immediately obvious to some editors that it was Stephens who was being ridiculed). Drsmoo deserves a sanction per boomerang IMO, potentially also for their defence of racism and unsubstantiated accusations of antisemitism. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:24, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drsmoo: How else would you explain your verbal attack on an editor (including all of this filing) because they called Stephens out for racism? — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I can see an argument for how it might be a joke on the face of it, but using phrases like that in a discussion on Wikipedia is...not acceptable, to put it mildly. To Drsmoo's credit, I do see that he first pinged Nishidani on the talkpage to discuss and he hasn't yet responded. The remark was made just over three hours ago and Nishidani hasn't edited since then; I think we can grant a little time for an explanation. However, the argument that it might be satire does not provide immunity from our standards of behavior. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I didn't mention in my above comment is that I don't necessarily buy Drsmoo's argument that it was a racist slur, I think that idea strips out all the context. My comment is that even if it was tongue-in-cheek as Nableezy says (and he's probably right), that doesn't make the use of such phrases in a content dispute acceptable. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani: See my updated comment just above. I don't necessarily claim a racist intent, but I'll wait for Nishidani to explain. There are a few circumstances where using that phrase on Wikipedia might be reasonable, such as discussing Mein Kampf or Rapaport's usage of it. I don't think a discussion of Stephens' validity as a source falls within any of those circumstances, unless he had used that phrase. If he promoted eugenics and wrote about "disease of the Arab mind" as you quote, saying that is reasonable but inserting phrases like "dumb goyim :)" without context is bizarre and uncalled-for. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:00, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unconvinced it didn't have context. In the talk page discussion linked above by Selfstudier, everyone apart from the filer of this report understood it, even one editor who didn't agree with its characterisation of Stephens' views. Black Kite (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I'm saying that Drsmoo's characterization of it as always being an antisemitic slur isn't taking the context into account. Given the situation, I don't think it was being used that way. I believe Nableezy and Selfstudier are interpreting it correctly in context and Drsmoo is not, but just because it isn't being used as a slur doesn't make it appropriate. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 19:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not massively appropriate, no, but I don't think it's a sanctionable issue. On the other hand, the filer's increasingly strident claims that it can only be an anti-semitic slur and therefore it must be one here are starting to edge towards NPA themselves. It is unfortunate that Nishidani has not replied here, because otherwise I would recommend closing this before they do cross that line. Black Kite (talk) 19:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you and Nableezy above that the filer is definitely rubbing right up against NPA. Assuming good faith, he may genuinely believe that the only use of this phrase is as an unironic slur. If he doesn't accept what people we're saying here that the assumption is mistaken, that should be examined too. I do see Drsmoo showing up several times in AE archives, but I haven't yet had time to check out the context. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 19:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Drsmoo previously reported Nishidani at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive321#Discussion_concerning_Nishidani. Both were given a logged warning. Black Kite (talk) 20:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani: Thank you for explaining; I assumed you were either sleeping, working, or just otherwise occupied away from Wikipedia so I wasn't reading into it. Can you at least agree that the language you used was inappropriate? It would be helpful if you voluntarily refactored or redacted your comment on the talkpage. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 01:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay everyone, I think you've all firmly established what you think about this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nish's "dumb goyim" comment was unnecessarily inflammatory. Almost every response since then has also been unnecessarily inflammatory. IOHANNVSVERVS, you asked on my talk page what battleground behavior I've seen from you, here's another great example. Popping up at AE about a dispute you weren't involved with to spend 500 words repeating that you think someone's behavior was bad.

This is why I've been trying to get the communication moderated in this topic area. It is reasonable to see the use of "dumb goyim" as antisemitic. That doesn't appear to be how it was used in this circumstance, but nevertheless it leads to a bunch of people arguing with each other, a bunch of bad feelings, and further dimishing the likelihood that compromises and consensuses will be developed. Most responses here are a perfect demonstration of the BATTLEGROUND at play.

I don't think there was anything wrong with a report in this instance, although the framing certainly contributed to the battleground here. In my view this was more of a "reach out to an admin to have a word with the editor" rather than go to AE swinging Mein Kampf around.

I would say a warning to Nish to not do that anymore, a warning to Drsmoo that when they see some smoke they could call the fire department rather try to put it out with a can of gas, and a reminder to almost everyone else here that AE isn't the place to argue back and forth with each other, it's a place to present evidence to administrators. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier, it is a common enough trope with its use discussed in sources such as Trials of the Diaspora. Again, that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance, but it is common enough where it is reasonable to have that impression. Something can be an antisemitic, racist, or otherwise prejudicial trope and still not be used in such a way. Avoiding unnecessary language that can lead to mistaking a statement as an invocation of a common canard is generally a good idea. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think a warning about using unhelpful or inflammatory language would be fine to solve the original issue. As far as Drsmoo, I'm torn on whether a warning about assuming the motivations of other editors would actually be effective, or whether something stronger is needed. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 15:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich raises a good point linking to Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel#Removal of reliably sourced information from the lead. There is some pretty solidly bad faith reading of others' comments to come to their conclusion about sources being called propaganda. That leaked over to here with some personalized commentary. That whole AFD has a lot of BATTLEGROUND, but Drsmoo was an outsized part of it. Importing conflicts from other articles to attack editors, ABFing or misreading and sticking to their guns, and ABFing Nish's statement to about the fullest extent clearly part of a larger pattern. Something a bit stronger may be called for. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those discussions do seem to demonstrate a pattern of ABF, IDHT, and just blatantly misrepresenting other peoples' arguments to derail a content dispute. I was originally considering some sort of "casting aspersions" restriction, but given these new links I'm not sure what would stop it short of a topic ban. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 20:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Wordsmith and ScottishFinnishRadish: I rather think Drsmoo's conduct here and [24] merits a TBAN: that level of us-vs-them is incompatible with editing such a thorny topic. I don't object to a warning to Nishidani. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drsmoo, Kashmiri (just pinging because I'm quoting you. No need to respond) said The term widespread occurs only in a quote from a person interviewed by a journalist, whereas your edit tries to make an impression that it is commonly used by the media to describe the events. Which is unsubstantiated, diplomatically speaking. The term systematic also occurs only once, and again not as a foregone conclusion. Then, you have been pointed out twice that the NYT investigation itself is controversial and potentially unreliable. Making thinly substantiated statements aimed to malign a political adversary is actually a core feature of propaganda.

Your response was If you’re going to dismiss the Associated Press, NY Times, Guardian, Physicians for Human Rights Israel by calling them propaganda and/or weak sourcing then I’m not sure how best to continue, followed by And for the sake of clarity. Your argument is that The New York Times, The Guardian, The Associated Press, are all “propaganda”?... No, claiming The NY Times, Associated Press, Guardian and Physicians for Human Rights Israel are “propaganda” isn’t going to fly... I'll remove attribution and restore it as it was. The sourcing backs it up. Claiming that the NYTimes, Guardian, BBC, Washington Post, Physicians for Human Rights Israel, Haaretz, Associated Press are "weak sourcing" or propaganda, is frankly quite odd. And then even more, and them bringing it to an AfD.

No one ever said those sources were propaganda, and that diversion effectively ended (derailed) the discussion. Discussion about attribution in sources, when they're quoting someone, or not stating something as complete fact are not accusations of propaganda. I believe this also addresses your post on my talk page to get around word limits here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:55, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see no evidence that Nishidani said anything that either had anti-Semitic intent, or could be construed as anti-Semitic by a reasonable uninvolved person reading that conversation. I still don't think his comment was helpful thing to say, but if it was unnecessarily inflammatory, Drsmoo's posts here are much more so. I'm as yet undecided on what to do about it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:07, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Vanamonde93's assessment on Nishidani. Had I seen that used in a conversation, it would give me pause and have me consider if it was meant to convey something more (probable cause). But nothing presented shows even a preponderance of evidence that Nishidani intended it in an offensive manner. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with Vanamonde. The comment certainly was not a particularly constructive addition to the discussion, and we could do with less of that in general (and certainly, now that Nishidani is aware that saying "dumb goyim" is considered rather offensive by a good few people, that phrasing should not be used again, but honestly—I didn't know that either.) I think I'm willing to accept, this time, the explanation that it was intended as self-deprecation rather than anti-Semitism, but if it happens again I would not take so charitable a view. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Drsmoo, the word limit at AE is 500, and you are approaching nearly three times that. It is not necessary for you to respond so frequently; the idea at AE is to propose your case and let it be evaluated, not constantly be arguing over it. Nableezy, you are also already well over the limit and are not even a party to this request, so further responses will not be necessary. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the evidence presented by Levivich and Zero, it's hard to see further insistence that "dumb goyim" could only have been intended as a Nazi dogwhistle, and particularly the insistence that this is clear to anyone who knows Israel-Palestine history as anything other than battleground behavior. There's a perfect Yiddish saying for situations like this, but lest that be misconstrued, I'll stick to Hebrew: זהו בלגן _signed,Rosguill ^talk 14:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only sanctions warranted here, if any, are of the boomerang variety. Courcelles (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JArthur1984 - civility restriction

Not an AE matter, moved to ANI. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

After posting on the user's talk page to clarify the edit rationale and warn the user to assume good faith, the user continued assuming bad faith (all documented on their talk page) Superb Owl (talk) 16:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Superb Owl: This does not seem to be an Arbitration enforcement request; did you mean to post this at WP:AN/I instead? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 17:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jéské Couriano ah my bad - I will post there (my first time) Superb Owl (talk) 17:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 373: / Line 373: @@
 Obviously, "dumb goyim beware" was a tongue-in-cheek summary of Bret Stephens's appalling writeup. It wasn't Nishidani who was racist; it was Stephens who was racist, to the extent that the publisher had to remove part of his article after an outcry[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/01/bret-stephens-new-york-times-article]. To ridicule racist views is not racist; it's the opposite (although I agree it may not have been immediately obvious to some editors that it was Stephens who was being ridiculed). Drsmoo deserves a sanction per boomerang IMO, potentially also for their defence of racism and unsubstantiated accusations of antisemitism. — [[User:Kashmiri|<span style="color:#30c;font:italic bold 1em 'Candara';text-shadow:#aaf 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em;">kashmīrī</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Kashmiri|<sup style="color:#80f;font-family:'Candara';">TALK</sup>]] 17:24, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
+:@[[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]]: How else would you explain your verbal attack on an editor (including all of this filing) because they called Stephens out for racism? — [[User:Kashmiri|<span style="color:#30c;font:italic bold 1em 'Candara';text-shadow:#aaf 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em;">kashmīrī</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Kashmiri|<sup style="color:#80f;font-family:'Candara';">TALK</sup>]] 19:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
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Revision as of 19:50, 16 February 2024

Grandmaster

Request concerning Grandmaster

Discussion concerning Grandmaster

Statement by Grandmaster

Statement by (username)

Clerk notes

Result concerning Grandmaster

Appeal request by GoodDay

Appeal request by GoodDay (talk)

Sanction, that appeal is being requested for

Administrator imposing the sanction

Notification of that administrator

Statement by GoodDay

Statement by Dennis Brown

Statement by Sideswipe9th

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal request by GoodDay

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

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Result of the appeal request by GoodDay

Nishidani

Request concerning Nishidani

Nishidani

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statement by Nableezy

Statement by Selfstudier

Statement by Objective3000

Statement by Coretheapple

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

Statement by Huldra

Statement by Zero0000

Statement by Levivich

Sean.hoyland

Statement by Researcher

Statement by TarnishedPath

Statement by tgeorgescu

Statement by kashmiri

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nishidani

JArthur1984 - civility restriction