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August 22

Partition of South Africa

How come a two-state partition of South Africa to give the whites and blacks there their own state (similar to what happened in Palestine and British India in 1947-1948) was never proposed or seriously considered by anyone at any time in South African history? From a practical perspective, it would have been much better for the whites and blacks there to have their own state and thus avoid discrimination and having less of a voice than the other side. The whites could have been given the sparely-populated western parts of South Africa and moved there en masse, while the blacks could have been given most of the other parts of South Africa. Futurist110 (talk) 00:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Because probably most of the whites were in positions of power and wealth and if a partition would happen they would get little next to nothing since even today they make up 9% of the population. The only way for them to stay in power and make money was to exploit and discriminate the black majority. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Why wasn't South Africa partitioned in the 1980s or 1990s when the whites there knew that their rule over South Africa would not last, though? Futurist110 (talk) 00:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think it would have worked based on the racist division of labor set up as blacks as workers and whites as management. Workers without management don't do well, and neither does management without workers. Consider what happened in Zimbabwe, when they pretty much kicked the whites out. Not pretty. StuRat (talk) 00:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

That's not because they got rid of white managers, though. They got rid of white farmers and replaced them with black politicians (and other cronies) that didn't know anything about farms or had any interest in actually farming them. Replacing farmers with politicians is going to cause a food shortage regardless of the racial makeup of the country. --Tango (talk) 00:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The person who manages the farm is what I am calling the white manager. I tried to use general terms so it would apply outside of farming, too. StuRat (talk) 00:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The whites in the white-majority state could still have placed some of their companies and means of production (such as factories and farms) in the black-majority state (similar to American companies in China, India, ad other parts of Asia today). Also, blacks would have been able to travel to the white-majority state if they wanted to work there (similar to the Palestinian Arabs working in Israel). Finally, the black-majority state could have worked in educating its population in the meantime and the white-majority state could have imported guest workers if necessary. Futurist110 (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much the system they had under Apartheid. StuRat (talk) 00:23, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Eh, No, since blacks weren't allowed to vote or have civil rights anywhere in South Africa under apartheid, while they would be able to hold civil rights and vote in the event of a South African partition.

They could vote in at least some of the Bantustans. StuRat (talk) 02:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't such a partition itself be a form of Apartheid? Or at least segregation? If I was a black South African in the 1980's looking up to Mandela and demanding equal rights in South Africa, I wouldn't want to debase myself and decide to accept a partition to split the country and appear as not equal to white people, just because some racists don't want their government system to fall. --Activism1234 00:23, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Remember, partition needs to be accepted by both sides. The British Mandate of Palestine never worked becuase only the Jews accepted it, and not the Arabs. The India-Pakistan partition worked because Nehru and Jinnah accepted it, no matter how much Gandhi didn't want it. And that wasn't the best partition either, mass-murder along the way when populations were transferred. I can't imagine blacks in South Africa in the 80's agreeing that they should, for some reason, be cut off and partitioned. --Activism1234 00:25, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the partitions in India and Palestine didn't work too well (there were 4 large wars in India and 3 in Israel). However, keep in mind that once Israel and India/Pakistan acquired nukes and other countries found out about those nukes, the conflicts in those areas became less heated. Arab countries stopped attacking Israel directly, while India and Pakistan became more careful to avoid wars. Considering that the whites in South Africa had nukes and a strong military (which a white majority-state would probably keep in the event of a partition), the black South African state wouldn't really have been able to do much to destroy the white South African state without bringing heavy damage to itself. And what do you mean by "cut off"? The black-majority state in South Africa would have still been contiguous, and the blacks there would have been able to work for whites (including in the white-majority state) if they would have wanted to. Futurist110 (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

In Israel's case, that applies only so long as other Arab countries don't have nukes, which they don't yet, in the future it is possible, albeit unlikely, that Iran may get nukes. In regards to India, the situation is much much worse, because Pakistan, India's fierce rival, has nukes, and they almost had a nuclear war. --Activism1234 01:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Iran isn't Arab, but is still a huge enemy of Israel's. However, I seriously doubt that Iran would start a large-scale war with Israel, as in sending its own troops to fight it and using nukes, since the Iranian regime isn't really interested in getting wiped off the map. As for India and Pakistan, the key word in your sentence is almost. Yes, India and Pakistan came close to a nuclear war in 1998-1999 and 2001-2002, but they backed off since both countries have way too much to lose in a nuclear war. Likewise, the 1999 Kargil War wasn't as bad as the previous three wars (in 1948, 1965, and 1971) and after 1999 there were no large-scale wars between India and Pakistan at all (keep in mind that Pakistan announced that it had nukes in 1998). Futurist110 (talk) 02:01, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Look into the creation of Lesotho and Swaziland. Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the South African government went for partition in a big way, starting in the 1960s, but without giving anything valuable away to non-whites. The policy produced the "homelands" or "bantustans"; "Ten bantustans were established in South Africa, and ten in neighbouring South-West Africa (then under South African administration), for the purpose of concentrating the members of designated ethnic groups, thus making each of those territories ethnically homogeneous as the basis for creating "autonomous" nation states for South Africa's different black ethnic groups" Four of these were granted "full independence", although internationally unrecognised; Transkei is a notable example. Alansplodge (talk) 01:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The Banstustans weren't nearly large enough to create viable economies and to give the black South African percentage that amount of land that they deserved. Also, not all the Bantustans were independent, and thus blacks in many of them still suffered huge discrimination. Futurist110 (talk) 01:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It's quite clear that partition was 'seriously considered', though, in that it happened to some extent. 130.88.73.65 (talk) 10:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. The point of the partition wasn't to achieve a fair and balanced settlement, but for the white minority to keep control of the prosperous bulk of the country, while much of the black majority could be shunted off into marginal areas and left to get on with it, while providing SA with a migrant workforce when required. I suspect that the intention was for all of the homelands to be independent eventually, but never prosperous enough to be a challenge to the RSA. By the way, Transkei was small in comparison to the RSA but more than twice the size of Wales, so all things are relative. Alansplodge (talk) 21:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

(question) Is there anywhere in the entire South Africa, besides for Pretoria perhaps, that still has a white majority? I can't easily see how Pretoria becoming an independent enclave (like Lesotho is) could make a viable country. 58.111.229.109 (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so but Western South Africa is very sparsely populated so creating a white-majority state there in the 1980s and moving most South African whites there would not have been too implausible. Futurist110 (talk) 03:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Incest Exception for Abortion

With the whole Todd Akin rape controversy, the abortion debate was brought back up into the spotlight right now. I was wondering what the rationale was in some Republican politicians supporting an incest exception for abortion while opposing abortion in most other cases? I mean, some incest is consensual and in some cases children born to closely related parents don't have any or much defects. I know that political pragmatism might be a factor, but is there another rationale for this? Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 01:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

An obvious consideration is even if it's true the child won't have 'any or much defects' (whatever you mean by that), it remains fairly difficult to know for many until either late in to the pregnancy or even after. A child of incest is also likely have much the stigma of a child of rape to third parties. However I don't think these are significant considerations for people as you describe. The more significant factor is when people say an exception for incest, they actually are really thinking of rape involving a related underage participant and an of age one (or significantly older age at least), e.g. a father raping their underage daughter. Of course in some cases they may also be thinking of cases involving underage participants where rape isn't clear (e.g. siblings of very similar ages). As a way of reference the examples given here [1] mentions a thirteen year old. [2] mentions incest along with rape in the discussion about how the woman is forced to carry a baby against her will etc. [3] mentions several things about incest in reference to a rapist and also in one case young victim. And remembering that abortions aren't forced, even in cases when it is apparently consensual, they may be thinking the woman has come around to the idea she did an extremely disgusting thing and so would have almost as much trouble living with the reminder of it as a rape victim (note I'm not saying and of this actually is, simply this is what the mentality is likely to be like). Or that it probably wasn't really consensual, particularly if it involved significantly different ages and generations (e.g. parent-child). Consider many of the comments in this case [4] [5] [6] (both these links and elsewhere) seemed to express these views. Nil Einne (talk) 03:05, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The strongly-conservative folks I know argue that the rape-or-incest exception is essentially hypocritical or dubious - because the whole point of being anti-abortion is that the pre-born infant's life is being taken for something that fetus had no control over. The "to save the mother's life" argument usually holds up because the doctor and the family have to make a choice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

By defects, I meant congenital disorders. If you're going to argue that we won't know if a fetus will have severe defects until later on, then couldn't the same rationale be used to allow people with inherited medical conditions to get elective abortions? Also, as for the fetus later having a bad life, this argument could also be used to allow poor women to get elective abortions. If someone is thinking of rape, then just say rape. There's no need to allow for a separate incest exception considering that some incest is legally consensual (both parties are above the age of consent and they actually give consent). If someone is underage, then it's generally considered to be statutory rape, and if one is extremely young then it's always considered to be statutory rape. As for this statement--"And remembering that abortions aren't forced", I think that you meant to say that "remembering that incest isn't forced". If you're arguing about the "ickiness" of incest, couldn't a racist woman also theoretically argue that it was disgusting for her to have sex with a man of a different race and that thus she should be allowed to get an abortion? Baseball Bugs, as for the argument that you mentioned, it isn't really convincing, since I don't and shouldn't be able to force someone else to let me have a kidney, blood, or bone marrow from them even if it was necessary to save my life (for an illness/condition that occurred through not fault of my own) if they were not responsible for my illness/condition/dependence on them to survive. Thus, why should a woman be forced to let an offspring conceived in rape use her body for several months? Also, I think that the correct term is prenatal, not pre-born. Futurist110 (talk) 04:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

As I made clear, I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply pointing out why some people support such an exception. You asked a question, I provided referenced answers which will not directly making the claim, do support most of the thesis, as I made the assumption you really wanted to understand why people may support such an exception, rather then pretend you were interested to try and start an argument on the RD. In case it's still not clear to you, the fact that when these people say incest, what they mean is rape involving related individuals doesn't change the fact it appears to be what many are doing. Similar to the fact not all of their arguments may be consistent etc. If you disagree with these people, you should take it up with them, and somewhere else besides the RD, since the RD isn't the place for such arguments. You're mistaken about statutory rape. In some jurisdictions, if the people are of very similar age and neither is in a clear position of power over the other, as may be the case for siblings, then there may be no statutory rape, hence why I made that specific distinction. (I already made clear that in other cases, it usually is rape.) And you're quite mistaken. I meant what I said. Abortions aren't forced. So someone who had consensual incest but doesn't regret it or the pregnancy isn't likely to be getting an abortion. So if someone is getting an abortion under such an exception, it generally suggests they don't want the pregnancy, which could be for a number of reasons, but from the POV of people who support such an exception perhaps it will be because they've realised what a disgusting thing they've done and are having trouble living with it. Again let me repeat I'm not saying I subscribe to such views, but if you want to understand why people support or oppose something, you've got to try and see things completely from their POV. P.S. It sounds like you're also missing my point on 'defects'. For starters it's unclear why you would consider Congenital disorder important, when it comes to incest genetic disorder seem to be more relevent here. Either way, there are a large number of things which could be considered genetic disorders (and therefore a type of congenital disorder), such as increase risk of varioys types of cancer, obesity, diabetes etc etc which depending on the precise genetics, may be of higher risk if the parents are highly related. The fact you mentioned disorder rather then abnormality does suggest you are including these but to what level is unclear. Nil Einne (talk) 06:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Opposition to legal abortion quotes some views from groups opposed to abortion on whether incest should be an exception. 130.88.73.65 (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Utility Maximisation

Recently I read about Utility Maximization and it seems to be an very important topic in Economics. But are there any stand out examples of firms / companies that have applied this and benefited from this ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.113.11.147 (talk) 12:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled Utility that has some background, but more importantly has some sources which you could follow to read more information. From reading the article, it sounds like your answer would be "all of them", in the sense that utility is such a core concept it would be hard to find a firm which took absolutely zero consideration as to the usefulness of their product or service. Whether the firm takes a rigorous mathematical analysis of utility (as the Wikipedia article does), or whether it takes a more qualitative approach towards analyzing their own products, at some level all firms have to have asked, and answered the question "Is the stuff we make useful, and how can be its usefulness be maximized so we can make more money". It does sound like a fundementally important economic concept, such a fundemental concept, however, that it is a core concept and thus unavoidable, and not a magic program that a company could choose to follow or not follow. That's my reading after looking over the articles, as a non-Economist and simple lay person. Perhaps an actual economist could weigh in and give a more thorough answer. --Jayron32 12:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as a student of economics, Jayron's answer makes sense from one perspective, but it's not how I would understand the term "utility maximisation". Rather, one tends to see it used to mean "I, as an agent, am constantly trying to maximise my own utility subject to x constraints" (which is obviously contentious, I'll point out, before Fifelfoo does that for me). Thus, it's not clear what you mean when you use the term: (a) what Jayron said, perhaps (b) "do any firms try to maximise their own utility (aggregate utility of their staff?), rather than maximising their own profits (the standard assumption in mainstream economics)?" (c) "Do any firms try to maximise societal utility (welfare) rather than profits", or something else? - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 14:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

That's my understanding of "utility maximisation" as well. It is the assumption underlying pretty much all of economics, so is implicitly (and often explicitly) used by anyone using economics. Businesses almost all do that - you need an awareness of supply and demand, for instance, in order to effectively set prices. --Tango (talk) 18:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that firms do perform a mathematically rigorous calculation of the utility that they get from goods and services they buy such as labour. It's called balancing the books. In a business, utility is easily reduced to dollar terms because maximization of utility is the same as maximization of profit. For any given business it can be estimated how much extra profit would be generated if one extra unit of labour, electricity, water, or other factor of production was purchased. In most businesses, at some point further production leads to diminishing returns. If production continues, a point is eventually reached where the marginal cost is equal to the profit generated and further production would lead to a loss.

For individuals it's not as easy to work out utility gained per dollar spent as the goods purchased are necessarily valued subjectively according to the consumer's own preferences. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Jarry1250! :). Veblen and some of the other institutionalists try to theorise concepts of utility as separable from exchange value. This can get interesting when you can demonstrate some agents within the firm value gross output maximisation (kilograms) over realised surplus value maximisation (expressible by in one moment of its circulation, but not actually, units of currency). This is, of course, more for other readers here than for you. For the other readers, you may wish to examine the failure of the utilitarian project, or Marx's critique of use-values as a sole expression of capital. Marginalist economics uses "utility" in a terminological way disconnected from ordinary concepts of use; so, maximisation of surplus value is equatable with the marginalist concept of maximisation of utility because there's no contradiction between these within the marginalist world view. If the question comes down to "how much gold can you eat?" then the problem is the failed utilitarianism research programme's problem. It the question is which balance of models of widgets maximise profit, then marginalist concepts utility hold valid. Fifelfoo (talk) 11:30, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Athabaskan Indians

Is there a reason why the Athabaskans are from a diverse number of tribes (Apache, Navajo, etc)? Also, why does it appear they retreated northward? Reticuli88 (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's a language family, so it's like referring to "Europeans" when you could refer to a specific nationality. And did they "retreat northward"? They must have travelled south like the other native groups. The Apache and Navajo are actually the southern outliers, since most Athabaskan-speakers live in the north. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I understand. For more specificity, how about the Koyukon Athabascan, which I am a part of..?Reticuli88 (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Does the article Koyukon people help? --Jayron32 13:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

---

Reticuli88 -- some linguists (such Joseph Greenberg) have posited three successive waves of migration from Asia. Earliest was a general "Amerindian" migration, then came a "Na-Dené" migration (which included the spread of Athabaskan languages), then an Eskimo-Aleut migration. (Of course, there may have been even more migration waves, but they could only be discovered by archaeological or genetic analysis methods, not linguistic methods). AnonMoos (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Reticuli88 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Since the Athabaskans are the largest group of speakers of the Na-Dene languages, it will be useful to read the article on the Dene-Yeniseian languages about their ultimate origin. The greatest diversity in the Na-Dene languages is in the north and west of their range. This and logic points to a general north to south expansion. μηδείς (talk) 00:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Satish K. Kappor

Respected sir i am already added biography of Dr Satish K Kapoor. Till not comes in our WIKIPEDIA.ORG siite. it will take how many days sir? Please send answer at <redacted> Dr Dama L.B. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Southraj (talk • contribs) 15:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I removed you e-mail address, because it is against the rules and may lead to you receiving spam. Regarding your question, if I understand correctly, you are asking about when a Wikipedia page is going to be created about Dr Satish K Kapoor. The answer is whenever an editor (could be you) decides to add it. However, reliable sources are necessary to establish that the subject is notable enough for a wikipedia article. - Lindert (talk) 15:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Southraj has requested an AFC review at User:Southraj/sandbox but has not written an article draft there, so there is nothing to review. Southraj, you may have neglected to save your draft. If you want to try again, please add the text of your submission in your sandbox. If you want someone else to write an article about the person, please follow the instructions at WP:AR; and if you have any further questions, please post them at the help desk, as this is not the correct place. Deor (talk) 18:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

In WWII, did the Allies not use encryption? Did Axis powers not bother trying to intercept messages?

I've been reading all about Engima machines and so on but I've yet to encounter any mention of efforts on Germany's part to intercept/decode Allied transmissions, or of Allies even using encryption. Are there some articles to get me started or are there some simple reasons why this wasn't an issue? Thanks. Vranak (talk) 15:55, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

We have an article on German code breaking in World War II. My understanding, though, is that much of German intelligence was focused on spies rather than codebreaking, and that the British were remarkably successful in turning spies into undetected double agents. — Lomn 16:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We have an article, German code breaking in World War II, which suggests it was poor logistics on the part of the Germans which meant that their codebreaking operation was not as successful as that coordinated from Bletchley Park. My (somewhat uninformed) understanding is that it wasn't a case of the Germans being particularly bad at codebreaking and interception - as our article says, they were able to listen in on conversations between Churchill and Roosevelt - more that Bletchley Park were streets ahead of any comparable effort. Equally important, the Germans were heavily reliant on Enigma, and convinced of its security, and the Allied codebreakers were able to keep their ability to decypher Enigma a secret (even to the extent that they deliberately left cities undefended from bombers when they had gained knowledge of a raid through Enigma transmissions). I believe that the Allies weren't quite so naive - they knew that the Germans could and would decypher their codes and so took further steps to mitigate against the consequences. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The allies actually did a lot of encryption techniques, from high tech (for the day) machine aided encryption like the Combined Cipher Machine to lo-tech methods like Code talkers. A good place to start your research into Allied cryptology methods during World War II is the article World War II cryptography. --Jayron32 16:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You might like the book Between Silk and Cyanide by Leo Marks, about UK codemaking and some of the consequences of German codebreaking in WW2. Yes there were considerable German successes in this area. Note: the story that Churchill let a city be bombed on purpose to preserve the Enigma secret was almost certainly apocryphal. Coventry Blitz#Coventry and Ultra has some info. A fairly thorough book on German WW2 codebreaking came out about 5 years ago but unfortunately I don't remember the title or author :(. It was based on documents that had been declassified only pretty recently (1990's?) so it has some info that wasn't previously known. It changed the picture some, but I don't have the impression it was earth-shattering. 69.228.170.132 (talk) 16:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You might also look at M-325, Hebern rotor machine, and most of all SIGABA, which was the U.S. version of enigma. Although I don't know if the allied use was as uniform or as extensive as the Germans was. Shadowjams (talk) 17:02, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Just as a side comment, it's worth noting that many of what became the really important Allied projects — cryptography, radar, the atomic bomb — were started (at great expense) at a time when Germany looked like it was rolling over Europe without much to stand in its way. The Allies saw themselves, early in the war, as being vastly outmatched in many respects, and spent loads of money on trying to use technology as a way to quickly catch up. By contrast, while the Germans loved spectacular weapons, then spent comparably less time on the sorts of defensive technologies (the atomic bomb was initially conceived in defensive terms, as a deterrent) that ended up being so key to the Allied successes. By the time the Germans realized that they had made a serious tactical error in this respect, it was too late. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The proliferation of German organisations engaged in code breaking was typical of Hitler's leadership style. He and other top Nazis would often give overlapping or even identical tasks to different departments in the belief that the best operation would come out on top in "survival of the fittest" style. The result was more often petty rivalry, poor communication and duplicated effort. Alansplodge (talk) 21:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Another encryption device used by the Allies was the Scrambler which was "invented at Bell Labs in the period just before World War II." Unfortunately, the Germans had a chap who had worked at Bell Labs just before WWII, so it all had to be scrambled a bit more. Alansplodge (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Somewhere in "The Game of the Foxes" Ladislas Farago claims Germany broke into many or most of the allied diplomatic codes. Our article certainly does need some work. Zoonoses (talk) 02:12, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Ted Bundy's interview

I saw an interview with Ted Bundy, his last interview hours before being executed and he blamed pornography for his violent and compulsive thoughts. Is there any article on Wikipedia that explains a possible link between violence and pornography? Nienk (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Without commenting on the veracity of the conclusions so reached, or any conclusion you may reach by reading them, you may be able to find some information in the articles Feminist views of pornography or Anti-pornography movement or Misogyny and mass media. Many social activists have claimed a clear connection, Andrea Dworkin comes to mind as the most prominent. If you are interested in exploring that view, Dworkin's books on the subject are probably as canonical as you can get. Again, don't take these recommendations of her works as an endorsement of them, or any of these articles, as being true, but they are usually considered to be among the most cited. --Jayron32 16:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Opposed to Dworkin is Sex-positive feminism... -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Nienk -- Viewing violent media depictions doesn't directly and immediately lead many people to go out and commit violence, or else most cities in the world would look like Grand Theft Auto locales. The more perceptive question is whether it leads to psychological habituation and desensitization effects, and there have been several studies on this (see Desensitization (psychology)#Desensitization). AnonMoos (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Susan Griffin's Pornography and Silence is an excellent read on this subject. -- 21:57, 22 August 2012‎ User:Woz62

I'd say Bundy is putting the cart before the horse in that interview. Sounds like the "Taxi Driver made me do it!" defense (which sometimes mutates into the "Marilyn Manson made them do it!" style of moral panic) - drafted this before I saw your Columbine question below. In either case, the perpetrator is already clinically insane; the media he cites is a vehicle for expressing some of his violent thoughts, not the cause of them. I'm sure media has an impact of some kind on some of the thought processes and imagery (as AnonMoos points out above), but I don't see the determinative causal link that Bundy and Hinckley (or people talking about them) used as an excuse. FWIW, neither did Martha Nussbaum in her critique of some of Dworkin's writings. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 16:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Willy has returned to the reference desk after several years of silence! I went through a phase several years ago of trying to improve our porn related articles, so heres what I remember from my "research". Fistly check out the President's Commission on Obscenity and Pornography, theres plenty about it on google books. From what I recall this was the biggest and most authoritative investigation into whether porn had bad effects that had ever been undertaken, involved shitloads of shrinks, criminologists and other academic experts, and essentially found that there was no evidence that porn caused any type of harm to anyone. Republican congressmen didnt like the sound of this, so it was ignored. Compare and contrast this worthy, methodologically valid investigation with the social-conservative-stacked joke that was Ray-Guns Meese Report, which, given that its purpose was to find that porn is evil, funnily enough found that porn is evil. The British Committee on Obscenity and Film Censorship essentially found that theres no evidence porn causes any harm to anyone. Check out Social effects of pornography too; although I havent read it or edited it yet, so it may well be bollocks; certainly the first quote mentioning the family is obvious drivel. The only academic I recall from my porn-editing days is Berl Kutchinsky, who also found that theres no evidence that porn causes any type of harm to anyone. Incidentally, if anyones interested in appallingly bad pseudo-academic "research" about porn, then read about Tony Bliar's thought-crime of Extreme pornography. Finally, the only other research I recall about this topic is [and sex crimes in Japan], which, like Kutchinsky, found that the more porn, the less sex crimes. Peace and love bitches! Willy turner (talk) 22:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

French working hours

The French 35-hour workweek restricts working hours to 35 per week, but does allow overtime (although apparently with an annual limit). Is there a definition of overtime that makes it different to regular working time? Is there anything to stop you just having your employees do two hours a week overtime every week, and essentially have a 37 hour week? I'm struggling to find good explanations of the rules in English (I don't speak French). Thanks. --Tango (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

From what I gather from Google Translate, overtime differs from regular working time in that the employer has to pay a bonus percentage and must (partly) compensate his workers by giving them time off. Thus, the overtime hours are more expensive for the employer and he is better off hiring more workers (which is the intention of implementing the 35-hour workweek. - Lindert (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the intention of the 35-hour week is actually to maintain a healthy work-life balance, or prevent exploitation of workers, or both? I suppose the intention of the legislation might be specified somewhere. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:35, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Our article gives reasons - both allowing people to take advantage of modern technological advances to increase their lesiure time and reducing unemployment by sharing work more evenly. --Tango (talk) 12:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Questions about the Columbine shooters

I love to read about crime and conspiracy theories, and on the Columbine massacre I've read a lot. For instance, that they were Neo Nazis, something not true since Dylan Klebold was Jewish. I've also read that they were Freemasons and homosexuals. Is there any truth in that?, in the last two pieces of conspiracy theories? Thank you. Nienk (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

There does not seem to be any evidence that they were homosexual, in fact there is evidence to the contrary. For example Eric Harris wrote in his journal Quote: "ALL gays, should be killed. mit keine fragen. lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human." In addition to hating homosexuals, the fact that he considered some lesbians 'hot' and 'fun to watch' strongly suggests he was not (exclusively) homosexual. I do not know about freemasonry, but I can't find any reputable sources that support the claim, so I highly doubt it. - Lindert (talk) 20:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Why did he write in German in his diary? And why is the German so bad (my Sprachgefuehl says it should be "ohne Frage")? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 23:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that writing such homophobic things is evidence that the writer is not homosexual. See Homophobia#Internalized_homophobia, or read about any number of the closet-homosexual and publicly gay-hating people in recent US history, such as Ted Haggard or Bob Allen. SemanticMantis (talk) 23:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, according to "Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold," Dylan was raised as Lutheran, not Jewish, though he did have a Jewish grandfather. I haven't seen any evidence that they were neo-Nazis, but nothing in their background precludes that possibility. D Monack (talk) 23:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

He could've been a neo-Nazi. Look at this quote from his journal, for example, "I'm gonna be so fucking loaded in about a month. the big things we need to figure now is the time bombs for the commons and how we will get them in and leave then there to go off, without any fucking Jews finding them." Very irrational. As someone else mentioned above, he also hated homosexuals, which neo-Nazis hate as well. --Activism1234 23:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

(EC)I have several comments.. One, the assumption that someone can't be a neo-nazi just because they're Jewish is false. If he was jewish by ancestry, he could very well rebel against it. It might seem ridicolous to go as extreme as neo-nazi, but I recently saw a documentary about the neo-nazi youth movement in Poland, and being Polish myself I found it equally absurd. Secondly, what if they were gay? Ask yourself Why would someone try to claim that? They were obviously disturbed in some fundamental way, could their sexual preferences also have been 'disturbed'? Is a regular gay person 'disturbed'? Can a disturbed person just happen to be gay? Seems to me equally absurd to try to draw a link between the fact they were homicidal maniacs and what their sexual preference was. You might as well make a conspiracy about what their favorite food was, start a rumor that McDonalds was their favorite food and they ate it 7 days a week and I bet someone conspiracy nuts will believe it and think there is a link. Vespine (talk) 00:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

What in the world are you saying... Are you replying to me?? Heck, I never even said whether he was gay or not... --Activism1234 00:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: Neo-Nazism, see The Believer、loosely based on Dan Burros. While it is extremely unlikely, it is not entirely impossible. Oh, and Activism, I think he was replying directly to the OP. 164.71.1.221 (talk) 01:05, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah all right, I was so confused! --Activism1234 01:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Since you're the one that caused his edit conflict he can't possibly have been replying to you. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 01:51, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the best book published on the subject is Columbine (book), by Dave Cullen. It explores a lot of the personal background of the two murderers, and also corrects many of the factual inaccuracies that were in the initial news reports and have subsequently passed into popular belief, even though they later turned out not to be true. A fascinating book, and mandatory reading for anyone interested in this event. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Yet another question on Columbine

I added the category American Jews to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold since Klebold was born to Jewish mother. Is that edit right? Nienk (talk) 14:10, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

It depends, I think. There are different ideas about what makes a person Jewish. It would be better to find a reliable source that directly states he is Jewish. Otherwise it might be considered original research to conclude that he is Jewish. - Lindert (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Also important is that it is generally agreed that reliable sources need to indicate that a person self-identifies as a categorization before we categorize them similarly. The standard at Wikipedia is threefold:

1. We need a reliable source
2. Which indicates that a person self-identifies with a category
3. Which is important to their reason for being notable

At best, we have only criteria 1) met. The other two are no where near being met for categorizing Klebold as Jewish in his Wikipedia article. --Jayron32 16:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There's an AN/I discussion going on about this topic right now. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Full Style of King of Saxony

What were the full style of the Kings of Saxony?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't find anything more extensive than "His Majesty The King of Saxony" as listed at Frederick Augustus I of Saxony while I did find this page, which when fed through Google Translate gives "We, FIRSTNAME, by the Grace of God, King of Saxony, etc. etc." without giving additional titles. Several sources I ran across researching this question indicated that after deposition, the heirs to Saxony began using the title of Margrave of Meissen, which I assume to have been a lesser title they held when Kings of Saxony, indicating that Margrave of Meissen may have been one of the "etc." bits, but I can't find anything more definitive than that. Since I don't speak German like, at all, I'm not finding much more, but if you have access to German language sources, you may find more than I can find in English. --Jayron32 20:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

1806 through 1918: "Wir, (Name), von Gottes Gnaden König von Sachsen etc. etc. etc." . --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

One place to look is Ruvigny Titled Nobility of Europe (1913), which if I remember right has a page for each monarch – including the immediate vassals of the German Empire – displaying their coat of arms and listing their full styles. (No, I don't know where to lay hands on it; I've only ever seen it in the San Francisco Public Library, twenty-odd years ago.) —Tamfang (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Here it is in Google Books: [7]. Sadly, it doesn't seem that this one is previewable online. --Jayron32 02:49, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The entire title, along with a detailed explanation of what each of them was, at least for the year 1873, is on the German Wikipedia (de:Titulatur und Wappen (Deutsche Kaiser nach 1873)). Google also suggests that earlier in the ninteenth century, in 1815, Frederick Augustus I of Saxony was "King of Saxony and Duke of Poland" (Herzog von Warschau), but possibly with other titles (unfortunately searching for that only brings up examples followed by more "et ceteras"). Adam Bishop (talk) 09:45, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course, I just noticed you were asking about Saxony specifically, not the emperor, so nevermind... Adam Bishop (talk) 18:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Article 3 of the Treaty of Poznań (11 December 1806) reads "his electoral highness endues the title of king". A proclamation dated 29 December 1806 reads: The provisional title of the king is: "We, by the Grace of God, Frederick Augustus, King of Saxony, etc. etc.", see 1811 state directory, p 157. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

August 23

Are they any books or movies with a villain with Aspergers_syndrome in it?

Are they any books or movies with a villain with Aspergers_syndrome in it? Interestly enough, people with aspergers sometimes commit crimes in real life. is there non-fiction books and movies about these types of people are criminals? Neptunekh2 (talk) 06:17, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

According to our article, Aspergers syndrome "becoming standardized as a diagnosis in the early 1990s". I think by that time, authors would have been wary about using a condition in a way that could appear to be adversely stereotyping those affected by it. There may be some examples out there, but I think it's unlikely. Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

TV crime shows like Law & Order, Criminal Minds, etc often feature mentally ill villains. I don't have specific episode references, but maybe a superfan could find you some. Staecker (talk) 11:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

See Autism spectrum disorders in the media and List of fictional characters on the autism spectrum. How is it interesting that people with Asperger syndrome sometimes commit crimes - is there a group of people who never commit crimes? 81.98.43.107 (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

People in a Persistent vegetative state? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The "Social Network" film... -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Not a villain, but see Did Sherlock Holmes Have Asperger Syndrome?. Alansplodge (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The "Probability" episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent (season 2) had a calculating and murderous (though perhaps pitiable) villain with Aspergers, although he did not know he had it until the detective recognized that he did. Edison (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

So technically are Mormons polytheist?

Well I read in an article that the LDS Church once believed (not sure if they still do) that "we can become Gods like our Heavenly Father." Wouldn't that technically be polytheism? And wouldn't that technically be a violation of the First Commandment? 112.208.50.143 (talk) 11:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No more so than the Roman Catholic Church, with its saints and such stuff as that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Surely you can tell the difference between veneration of saints and saying that men can become gods. Staecker (talk) 11:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Baseball Bugs' answer is wrong (the Catholic church distinguishes between "dulia" and "latria" -- see Veneration#Roman_Catholic.2C_Orthodox -- and saints are prayed to as intercessors with God, not as gods themselves). Some (such as many Muslims) would claim that the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity is effectively equivalent to polytheism, but certain Mormon doctrines are far more explicitly polytheistic than anything in traditional Christianity). AnonMoos (talk) 14:48, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No matter what terms you use, it's the same thing. God doesn't need "intercessors". God is omniscient and omnipotent. Praying to saints is de facto polytheism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:37, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The way Catholics see it, as I understand it, it isn't really any different from asking a friend to pray for you, which Protestants do all the time. The only difference is that, in the case of the saints, you're asking a dead friend, and one you think might have just a little more influence. This brings in other theological arguments (are the dead conscious, prior to Judgment Day? Does God really answer prayers on the basis of influence?) but it doesn't seem to be polytheism. --Trovatore (talk) 22:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll concede that Catholics don't like having that brought to their attention. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't appear to be responsive in any way. --Trovatore (talk) 00:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Meaning what? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Meaning you didn't address the point I made. --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well it wasn't about baseball or cartoons or Tom Lehrer. Don't worry about it, some people can't resist attempting to answer every single question. It has never been any use bringing this up anywhere. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't like having what brought to their attention? That asking something is not worship? Seems a little odd. 86.169.212.200 (talk) 20:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That they are engaging in polytheism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I suppose in the same way that you don't like having it brought to your attention that you beat your wife. If you are unfamiliar with the reference, please do follow the link before responding. Do you think that the people asking for references here on the desks are worshipping us? Do you think that Sola Scriptura Protestants worship the Bible, or otherwise engage in polytheism in which the Bible is an additional god? Do you think that children engage in polytheism when they ask for things from their parents? Do Muslims worship the geometric shapes which decorate mosques? 86.169.212.200 (talk) 22:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

"Unfamiliar with the reference"??? That's a good one. Next you'll be asking me if I've heard the one about the chicken crossing the road. OK, the Bible and the Quran, in their respective religions, are presumed to be the voice of God, either directly or indirectly or both. So if you're "worshiping" those items, or more accurately, considering them sacred, it's part of worshiping God. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I didn't want to take any chances, given that you don't always get jokes and references on the desks that I expect you to get. You don't seem to have engaged with the questions I actually asked, except to say that worshipping an object is apparently fine and dandy, and not polytheism, if that object is considered to contain sacred writings. In interesting opinion that doesn't accord with the stated beliefs of any Christian group I am familiar with, but not really the point.

Group A is accused of worshipping other people and holding them as other gods. Group A explains that they do not worship these people or consider them gods (which would be blasphemy if they actually did worship them and consider them gods). Group A are accused of misrepresenting what they actually believe and do, since the accusers consider it more likely that Group A both worships extra gods and is willing to endanger their souls by blaspheming against these extra gods in order to, I don't know, trick people into thinking they believe something they don't? Rather than that the accusers have bought into the basic misinformation that is prevalent in certain parts of America, as part of a well-documented bias.

The first time you are asked whether you stopped beating your wife, you are puzzled and assume the speaker confused you with someone else. The second time, you wonder who's been spreading weird rumours about you. Subsequent times, you maybe point out that you never married, or that there is no evidence or witness statements or whatever. Eventually, when educated people with access to worlds of information ask the same question, you simply sigh, explain that it is a loaded question based on false ideas, and make a mental note about the person. 86.169.212.200 (talk) 08:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Certainly the LDS believe in the existence of many gods, however, they don't worship most of them, therefore, one migh call it Henotheism. There is some confusion however on whom the LDS worship. Some say it is only God the Father (link), but it is also said that they worship both the Father and Jesus Christ (link). If so, that can be considered bitheism, because Jesus and the Father are seperate beings and seperate gods in Mormon theology. - Lindert (talk) 11:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do they call it "The Church of Jesus Christ..." if they don't worship Jesus? 109.99.71.97 (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't mean anything. There are Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox churches named after saints, but that doesn't mean they worship them. There's no meaningful way to extrapolate a belief from something as trivial as a name. If you want to know what the beliefs of a faith are, you look to the people and to the leaders and to the scriptures and documents and tenets of that faith. You don't project your own expectations of what their faith should or shouldn't be based on your own criteria. --Jayron32 19:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

In other words, the Mormons believe that their church is the continuation of the church that was founded by Jesus Christ, hence "The Church of Jesus Christ..." 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Shonuff, but that conclusion isn't reached because of the name. --Jayron32 22:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Not being familiar with the expression "shonuff", I googled it and was presented with images of the Shogun of Harlem. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 23:01, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure enough... --Jayron32 01:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• The same article that the Original Poster cited also states that the Mormons corrected their theology a couple decades ago to clarify that the whole becoming God thing is a metaphor, and that they only believe in one God. One of the major tenets of Mormonism (and a lot of other Protestant groups, to be fair) is that Scripture is subject to reinterpretation. So while you could claim that the Mormons used to follow a sort of polytheistic blend, they have made it quite clear that currently Mormonism is purely monotheistic. --M@rēino 21:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Resident Mormon here. As much as I love Wikipedia, I probably wouldn't rely on it to expound official church doctrine. Of any church. The cited article ALSO states: "However, official LDS publications have still affirmed the doctrine of eternal progression, and the official church manual Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, published in 2012,[16] affirms the LDS doctrine that "As man is, God once was; as God now is, man may be."

I believe in Romans 8:17 which says that we will be joint-heirs of God with Christ. Admittedly, this can be interpreted in a number of different ways, but I believe we're on pretty firm ground with our principle of eternal progression. Kingsfold (Quack quack!) 16:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Gentleman with curls, 2nd half of 19th century

Any idea, clue, hint, where this gentleman can be culturally positioned? ("tinyeye" gives 6 Hits but none with Name or further info). GEEZER^{nil nisi bene} 20:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The best I could do is track the photo backwards to (I think) its first appearance on the web, in January 2010: http://www.damncoolpictures.com/2010/01/100-wtf-photos-from-past.html It's picture #82. I have no idea if that site is run by people who keep track of the sources for their photos, but it appears to me they'd be the best place to start. I certainly have no clue where that particular kind of fashion sense would have been current -- the photograph's appearance suggests late 19th Century to me, and the style of dress feels Western European, but he could be Australian or Austrian and I wouldn't know how to tell the difference from what we can see. Good luck with the search: Jwrosenzweig (talk) 01:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that this is an individual who is non-conformist in some way, but who has put on 'normal clothes' for this picture to be taken. Non-conformist could mean that he's an artist or belongs to some other sub-culture, or that he comes from an ethnic group where men kept their hair long. There are many pictures from the 19th century of the original inhabitants of colonised lands donning Western garb, and looking thoroughly uncomfortable. V85 (talk) 04:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the curls are not his real hair but "falls" or fake hairpieces, which were popular in mid-Victorian times. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Need a Demon or Spirit Example

I need any example of a demon or spirit or entity of that causes men to fight each other or similar to that. Reticuli88 (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean more specific than just "The Debbil made me do it?" --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

yes please. I'm looking for a entity that "specialized" in this? I don't know better terminology. Reticuli88 (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Err I'm not sure whether a Dybbuk specifically caused people to fight, and whether it was believed in or was just folklore, but maybe you can check it out? Sorry don't know much else. --Activism1234 23:16, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Here are a few demons from the Lemegeton- the Tree of Knowledge of King Solomon

• Furfur - Bestows love of battle
• Glasya-Labolas - Causes murders and death
• Halphas - Causes wars
• Sabnock - Inflames arguments and turns minor disputes into full scale wars --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Eris (mythology), aka Strife, or her son Enyalius, also called Strife? (Now there's a way to generate mother-son friction.) Clarityfiend (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Mom, you named me after yourself?! Everyone's gonna laugh at me, especially that bully Hercules. Why didn't cha just name me Sue while you were at it? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed, and of course Loki specialised in stirring up strife in more northerly climes.

Also

• From the classification of Sebastian Michaelis, Berith, Prince of Cherubim, is the demon tasked with promoting quarrelling, homicide and contention.
• From the classification of Francis Barrett, Abaddon is your go-to demon for wars and conflicts--Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
• Among the Goetic demons, Marquis Leraje is the inciter of feuds wars and battles Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

If sci-fi is acceptable, the original Star Trek episode Day of the Dove features an entity which drives people into perpetual warfare to feed off the hatred it generates. StuRat (talk) 03:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

My first thought was of the Thuggee sect, and of Kali their goddess. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Demon rum comes to mind. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

August 24

How is this possible

I was reading the BBC and I came across this wonderful article. Many of the listed dishes include "edible gold"; how can gold be edible, and why would anyone want to eat it? (I assume it is a Veblen good effect thing?) 24.92.74.238 (talk) 02:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It's relatively inert in the human body, meaning it neither does good nor harm (at least in the quantities they use). The reason to eat it is just for the novelty and sense of luxury. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

See Goldschläger. --Jayron32 03:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Gold leaf#Culinary uses: it's 99% decoration and one-upmanship by the 1%. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec)As part of my undergrad studies, I took a course on the toxic mechanisms of the transition metals. Metallic gold is not normally reactive in the human body, but the lecturer did note that metallic gold is taken as a treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, and that it may have toxic effects that are poorly understood. Given that I had recently seen a cocktail menu that included creations with gold flakes, I quizzed her about this she claimed that drinking such cocktails carry a high risk of causing health problems. I think she was speculating way outside of her area of expertise, and in general, she was prone to exaggerate the dangers of many metals.

As for the OP's original question, it might be related to Velben good type effects, but it's not really that expensive anyway. It's just flashy. You certainly can't taste it, so it can only really be a way to increase the food or drink's aesthetic appeal. Personally, I think it just looks tacky. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

You can get heavy metal poisoning from gold, but it would need to be in fairly large quantities. --Tango (talk) 11:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to remember where I heard that, and realised it was from the ever-reliable medical drama, House... in fact, this episode. The trivia section gives an estimate of just how much it would take to kill someone, and the article says it was a compound of gold rather than elemental gold which was used - I think elemental gold is much less likely to be absorbed. (I should try and remember which bits of information I gleam from reliable sources and which from episodes of House...) --Tango (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This post (whose author I think is an internist, and who comments on every House episode) is positive about the episode's accuracy and links to the compound and its therapy. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

That BBC article did not pick out the most expensive burger even in New York City, the rightly-named Douche Burger (which prompted this short piece on eating gold from Slate. Short answer - eating a lot of gold will not cause you any health problems, but may indicate that you are a terminal asshole... ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Voting Patterns in Poland and Romania

I found it very interesting that the voting patterns for Poland and Romania generally follow (with the exception of the coast in Romania) the pre-WWI vs. post-WWI territories for Romania and the pre-WWII vs. post-WWII territories in Poland. Is there any specific reason for these voting patterns, or is it just a coincidence? Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 04:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

You can see this--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poland_2007_election_results.jpg and this--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Presidential_election_2009_second_round.png for reference. Futurist110 (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Well Poland A and B talk a little bit about it. It also cites some sources that you could check out. If you speak Polish it would help to read up more on that topic. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:56, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Unfortunately I don't speak Polish, though. Do you know anything about the same pattern in Romania? Futurist110 (talk) 05:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Poland,the topic was covered here [8] on the wonderfull Strange Maps. Read the comments section for suggested explanations. Willy turner (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

See: Kowalski, Mariusz (2000). "Geografia wyborcza Polski. Przestrzenne zróżnicowanie zachowań wyborczych Polaków w latach 1989-1998" [The electoral geography of Poland. Spatial differences in electoral bahaviour 1989-1998] (PDF). Geopolitical Studies. 7. Warsaw: Polish Academy of Sciences. ISSN 1429-009X.

It's in Polish, but there's a fairly long sumary in English at the end and illustrations have English captions too. It's 12 years old now, but although the political scene of Poland has changed considerably during this time, I believe the general voting patterns have not. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look at it when I'll have a minute. I wonder if the same thing happened with Romania, since Austria-Hungary probably industrialized before the pre-World War I territory of Romania. Futurist110 (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Roman legio and the Kings of spain

Is castra legio VII Gemina List of Roman legions the origin of castile and the List of Navarrese monarchs Jimenez Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 08:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Alaric I was holy roman emperor. And pelayo was his noble man.

I been looking for the emblem castra legio but no record of it been found? And Gimena was a queen of Navarra correct?

According to Jiménez dynasty the scion of the family, García Jiménez of Pamplona has unknown origins. Jiménez (surname) is a name of hybrid origins, the Basque first name Jimeno or Semen (anthroponym) with the spanish ending -ez meaning "son of". The original Basque name has no connections to Latin at all, Basque isn't even an Indoeuropean language, and has no connections to Latin. It appears to be a native Basque name with no connection to the Latin word Gemina. Interestingly, according to our articles, the Basque name "Semen" means "Son", so "Jimenez" means "son of son" or something like that. But it does not appear that there is any connection between the Iberian dynasty and the Roman legion stationed there. The article Kingdom of Castile also explains the origins of that name: It was originally a heavily fortified district of Asturias before becoming an independent kingdom. As it was the place with a lot of castles, it had been named Castile. The name derives from the 9th century, well after the Romans had left Iberia. So, despite some coincidental similarities to the name of the Roman legion, neither the Jimenez dynasty nor the Kingdom of Castile has any origins in the Roman legions. It's a coincidence. --Jayron32 12:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

What does abbreviation "Phoeb. Fig." stand for?

Good afternoon (sorry for the mistakes),

I would like to know the meaning of the abbreviation "Phoeb. Fig." used in A Greek–English Lexicon, for example here or here. I suppose "Fig." is a work, because it is written in Italic type, "Phoeb. Fig." in some books (here for example).

Thank you. --Fsojic (talk) 14:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It looks to me like a reference to an author and a work (Phoeb. is the author's name and Fig. is the work name, both abbreviated). The full citation, with the full names, should be in the "works cited" or "bibliography" section. Have you tried looking there? Sometimes there is an appendix or introductory part that explains what abbreviations are used. --Jayron32 14:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I haven't read through it for the specific abbreviation above, but I did find this section of the same book you gave. You should find what you are looking for there. --Jayron32 14:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

(Actually, I had already checked in this book, but thank you anyway !) Unfortunately, the author writes p. 555, § 1243 : "abbreviations of Greek and Latin authors (and their works) generally agree with those used in the lexicons of Liddell, Scott, Jones [...] Abbreviations of authors not found in these reference works, or for whom another abbreviation has been used, are listed below.", which obviously means the abbreviations found in these reference are not listed below. Furthermore, pages 581-583 (580 ends with Perelman, C. and 584 begins with Rostagni, A.) are not shown in this preview : so if Phoeb. Fig. had been there I would not have been able to see it). Fsojic (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Foiled by missing pages. It chaps my ass when Google does that. Presumably, one of the advantages of a digital book is that the pages can't fall out. Except Google still finds a way to let that happen. C'est la guerre. --Jayron32 15:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It is a work by the 6th century rhetor Phoebammon called di Figuris on the subject of rhetorical figures. Listed here assuming that url works. meltBanana 15:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Great, thank you very much ! This is exactly what I was looking for. Fsojic (talk) 15:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Damn! I was hoping the author would be revealed to be a name like "Phoebe Figworthy". The truth's no fun sometimes. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean Phoebe Figalilly perhaps. ;-) 69.228.170.132 (talk) 02:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Phoibammon: Scholia peri schematon rhetorikon. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Can the OEO get specialized credentials for professionals who enter witness protection?

Say someone with all kinds of undergraduate degrees, graduate degrees, and state board certifications, like a neurosurgeon, was a crucial witness in a very big case the US government wanted to win, and he was taken into the witness protection program. Is it likely the Office of Enforcement Operations would, in addition to standard new identity pieces such as a birth certificate, SSN, etc., get equivalent college degrees and board certifications for the new identity, or do all witnesses, regardless of their skill sets in their old lives, only get enough documentation in their new identities to get the same grocery store or factory job? 20.137.18.53 (talk) 17:10, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article United States Federal Witness Protection Program has some basic information, and based on some inferences I can make from what is written there, and from what I understand about the program, is that it is expected that the protected witness usually gets a new job or career and has to abandon all ties to their old life. For people with highly specialized degrees, it is very hard to "hide" if you keep your own job. For example, the number of neurosurgeons in the U.S. is small enough that essentially all of know each other either by reputation or directly, or enough that you'd be easily recognized. If a brand-spanking-new neurosurgeon started practicing, and he looked exactly like Bill, and simultaneously Bill disappeared, it wouldn't take long for anyone to put two-and-two together, and that kinda defeats the purpose of witness protection. People in witness protection are generally given low-profile jobs specifically because they are low profile. Yes, it sucks if you have to abandon a job you love which required many years of training to get, but if the alternative is to be dead, many people would make that choice even if it has its hardships. --Jayron32 17:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

In that case, I could see it being much more likely to have a highly skilled person with a good life who witnessed something simply choosing not to testify and say he saw nuthin' than someone whose qualifications in the life they have are already that of a wage slave. 20.137.18.53 (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Except that the people who committed the crime may know he saw something, and may not have any qualms with "offing" him just incase he gets a guilty conscience later. Sure, people can refuse witness protection, but keeping your head down and pretending it all didn't happen rarely goes well. I suppose they may choose to do so, there's nothing stopping them, but insofar as they agree to be a witness and enter witness protection, it is impossible for someone who is in a highly specialized field to keep their jobs. It has nothing to do with an arbitrary policy: if you're trying to hide, keeping your same circle of aquaintances is impossible for your own safety. And pretending you didn't witness a crime that the perpetrators of the crime know you did witness, well, good luck with that. --Jayron32 17:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I was imagining a scenario with the admittedly unsaid premise that the witness was not seen by or known to the defendant(s) in any way, shape, or form. Just to pluck it out of the nebulousness of abstraction, Joe Johnson is on his highrise balcony looking out at things with his binoculars and, in million-to-one fashion, sees in Central Park a mile away, Jimmy The Nose exactly as he shoots someone. And Joe is the only witness. Just trying to focus on the career question without anything else which would obviously push the decision. But I wonder about even simply a college degree. Surely, the number of electrical engineers in the US is not so rarefied that being one of them would necessarily make you stick out like a sore thumb. 20.137.18.53 (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

If someone witnesses a crime and no one, not the government nor the accused, knows or has any way to suspect, that the witness was involved in any way, then the deeper ethical/moral question is whether or not the witness should come forward at all. That's a deep philosophical issue, and probably not something that the Federal Witness Protection Program procedures enters into. If you're concerned about what situations a person should or should not feel compelled to testify if they witness a crime, you're really discussing the issue of Moral responsibility. I think, however, that this is likely an issue which is handled on a case-by-case basis. It may be easier for an engineer to hide than a neurosurgeon. The Wikipedia article does note, however, that the program pays for job retraining as needed; implying that changing careers would be something that is often needed. --Jayron32 17:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe the witness protection program is here for such cases, when the criminals do not know who the witnesses are. In this case. There are other less cumbersome possibilities to protect witnesses of a crime. Simply letting them testify anonymously would be much easier. Comploose (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

If you take into account the effort required to pass such a constitutional amendment, you might find that it's actually just easier this way. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe people in the program are normally 'normal' citizens who witnessed a crime. I suppose they are mostly fellow mafia members who decided to testify against their peers. Don't expect any one of them to have a regular high specialized profession. Comploose (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's someone who has a specialized degree who could have potentially been in the Witness Protection Program: Robert Cooley. This does give some validity to the OPs question, would someone like this be given new credentials so that they could continue to practice law if they had chosen to enter the program? --Daniel 00:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Question about celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church

In fact, I've two questions. If a virgin boy enters priesthood and takes up the celibacy vow, is he supposed to die a virgin? and my second question is who's next to the bed of a dying priest since they have no family. Isn't that kind of sad? To die alone Thank you. Nienk (talk) 21:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

First question: Obviously. Second question: A priest can have siblings, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

There are exceptions, I think. A priest can be dispensed from his vow not to marry, at which time he will ordinarily be laicized (he remains a priest, technically, but is not allowed to perform priestly functions). I don't know how hard such a dispensation is to get nor on what grounds it might be granted. --Trovatore (talk) 23:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's especially hard to get the dispensation, except that you might find the asking psychologically difficult. I'd have thought "I don't have a vocation to celibacy, as I previously thought, and so I need to be released to explore the vocation to marriage" would be enough, although you'd probably have to be prepared to discuss it to make it clear that you're not basing the decision on something else that can be resolved. It's not like the bishops would want to force someone to remain a pastoral priest who don't have a vocation to it. 86.169.212.200 (talk) 18:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

They can also have friends at their side. Some of my best friends know me better and are closer to me than some of my siblings. So if I my siblings were to die, there'd still probably be a few people around my death bed. Blood relatives aren't the only people who are necessarily close to you. Dismas|^(talk) 21:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

There are some cases of married Catholic priests, so for those extremely rare individuals, neither of your questions are an issue. 72.2.54.34 (talk) 00:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are. That's not the situation the OP describes, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

You're right for the first question, but for the second, though extraordinarily rare, it does apply. Mingmingla (talk) 01:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the second part of the second question was, "Isn't that sad?" Well, obviously, if he died alone, it could be sad. But that's based on an unwarranted conclusion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Having worked in a hospice, I can tell you that many people choose to die alone to spare their families the sight of death. That's why good hospices are very careful to stress that it isn't the family's "fault" if they're not at the bedside when death arrives. Happens all the time - the family leaves and 15 min later.... --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 03:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

So it's not necessarily even sad. The visitors will have a lasting memory of their loved one as being alive the last time they saw him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Ward Cunningham

Is his birth's location suppose to be kept secret or something? I mean we know he was born in the US but we don't know which city or state he was born in. That information usually is in the Wikipedia articles. I searched it up too and couldn't find it. So is there any reason that his birthday location is secret?184.97.233.160 (talk) 23:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried e-mailing him or otherwise contacting him? Because if sources don't discuss it, maybe nobody ever asked him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you already search in Wikipedia? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 01:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Michigan City, Indiana appears to be right. At least Ward's Home Page: Where I've Lived all my Life starts there. Of course, until he produces a long form birth certificate, we'll have to assume he's from Kenya. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that Kenya humor. I needed a good laugh right now. :)

You're welcome, o anonymous one. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:45, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

August 25

Bribery rejected

Is there a famous example of someone who has been offered a bribe and has rejected the bribery? (I am looking for examples besides the one mentioned at Matthew 4:9, 10.) Apparently there is no such example in Category:Bribery.
—Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Harry Reid#State politics 69.228.170.132 (talk) 02:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I'll start raise the bidding at to $450,000. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Umoh Sunday Etim (red link now) seems to be notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article.

—Wavelength (talk) 04:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Senator Larry Pressler in the late-70s Abscam scandal.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Appearance-enhancing cosmetics as disqualification

Some athletic competitions disqualify contestants for using performance-enhancing drugs. Do any beauty competitions disqualify contestants for using appearance-enhancing cosmetics or body-altering treatments?
—Wavelength (talk) 02:35, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd expect surgery like breast enlargement is out in many such contests. Cosmetics, on the other hand, are almost always allowed, although I can't discount the possibility of a "no make-up" beauty contest somewhere. (I think this would be a good idea for baby contests, so they don't end up looking like a prostitute/Tammy Faye Baker.) StuRat (talk) 02:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The Donald tried to disqualify Jenna Talackova from the Miss Universe Canada contest for major body work. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you have to be "naturally born" woman to take part on it. Donald Trump seems to have an obsession with this naturally born part. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

So nobody delivered by C-section may compete ? :-) StuRat (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course they can. On the other hand, Tammy Faye's makeup amounted to surgical implantation of a second face, so she'd be out. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Carrie Prejean apparently had breast implants prior to the competition for Miss USA - http://inyourface.ocregister.com/tag/carrie-prejean/page/2/. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 03:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Bad future for Wikipedia

Alright according to what I knew, everything in Wikipedia is stored in some place. What happen if there is a crazy guy in the future that successfully destroy the storage that contains everything Wikipedia ever has? If that happened then are we going to lose all our hard work since 2001? What I mean is like if it happens right now then are we going to lose all 4 million articles and have to start from scratch again? Is there a way that can make everything in Wikipedia invincible to anything and can't never be destroy? Pendragon5 (talk) 05:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It would be best to ask this at WP:VPT because someone there would have a better answer, but I would assume that Wikipedia, like many firms, uses some sort of remote backup system for its data. I know of few companies who consider their data important that don't store the backup off-site. Think about it, something as simple as a fire in the building with the servers would destroy everything. Let's say you want to make sure you have backup copies of all of your important documents, like your birth certificate, drivers license, insurance cards, etc. You don't make a photocopy of them and then put the photocopy in the same file folder as the original. If you're smart you don't even keep it in the same building: you keep one in a file cabinet at home, and store the other in a safe deposit box at the bank. Firms like Wikimedia do the same thing when they backup their data: they keep the backup offsite, for the exact reason you note. --Jayron32 05:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay let say it this way. I'm sure if someone, that wants to destroy everything in Wikipedia, already knows about this. So that crazy guy will try to destroy "ALL" the storage memory of Wikipedia including the backup. So in that case, is that mean that we are screw? So the hard work of millions editors around the world are wasted at one point in the future? One more question: So there is not really something that invincible to destruction? I hope that something like that will exist so we can protect this great work of mankind!Pendragon5 (talk) 06:53, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

People that batshit insane usually lack the means to enact their insanity. Supervillains don't really exist like they do in the comic books. If some guy blew up the Wikimedia offices, and then started blowing up all of the buildings that housed the backup servers, and THEN blew up all the buildings that housed all of the servers that housed all of the non-Wikimedia forks and mirrors of Wikipedia, well, at that level we're getting just silly. It isn't going to happen. --Jayron32 14:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well it has happened once before actually... Adolf Hitler would be a good example. I would categorize Hitler into "extremely insane person" but he is not stupid. Who can say Hitler is dump? He is crazy yea but not stupid at all. Let me remind you of something, some people are really smart but what they want to do "make" others people think they are insane. Perhaps they are not. What kind of reason is there for someone want to blow up everything about Wikipedia? I don't know but there isn't any reason or maybe just some dump reasons like Hitler had to kill the Jews. And as technology continues grow, you can use it either for good thing or can also use it for the bad thing... Imagine 100 years from now... What kind of destruction our technology enable us to do. If a smart bad guy trying to do insane thing get the hold of something destructive then destroy everything Wikipedia has is just a piece of cake or they can even destroy the entire Earth.Pendragon5 (talk) 21:41, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't doubt that people are that batshit insane as to want to destroy Wikipedia as you describe. How would the get the means to do so? Hitler is a non-sequiter: He wasn't a weirdo with a vendetta against a website. How would a U.S. resident manage to destroy so many hundreds of buildings without getting stopped at some point. The scale of the endeavor to completely erase all of Wikipedia, and the impossibility of carrying out such a plan is what is silly. --Jayron32 01:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

First of all, it doesn't need to be a US resident. Anyone in this world could be that nutter who wants to destroy Wikipedia. It is "not" impossible to destroy all the storage of Wikipedia. I think if what Hitler did was possible then destroying Wikipedia is nothing. What Hitler did is just simply on a WAY BIGGER scale than destroying that many buildings. How would they get the means to do so? Don't ask me. They can get it by whatever they want and capable of. It is hard yep but not impossible. So I can make a conclusion that Wikipedia is not completely safe yet. Maybe it is 99% safe but... As long as it is not 100% safe then we can't be so certain that something bad won't happen. Better be over careful than be careless.Pendragon5 (talk) 05:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I do a bit of IT work for a owner operated business. Even that one person operation has two backups. One onsite and one off. Wikimedia, I'm sure, has something similar. Dismas|^(talk) 05:57, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks.—Wavelength (talk) 06:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

See User:Emijrp/Wikipedia_Archive#Offline_versions_of_Wikipedia. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

And even more relevant, Wikipedia:Terminal Event Management Policy. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The contents of Wikipedia are stored in a huge MySQL database, and secured in a number of ways. First, the database is replicated in a number of servers; second, the entire contents are backed up regularly and the backups are stored on multiple computers in multiple countries. To destroy all of that would take enormous skill and enormous effort. Looie496 (talk) 07:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how much effort or skill it would take but what matter is is it possible to do it or not? It sounds like it is a possible thing to me. So I think we can't be too sure that Wikipedia is safe because one day in a future, some smart badass crazy people may successfully destroy it. The only to prevent this 100% is to create something that, store everything Wikipedia, can't never be destroy like matter.Pendragon5 (talk) 21:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a recent SQL backup. It's not everything, but it's a good start. The crazy guy has to get it from me (and I assume I'm not the only one with some database dumps) first. Shadowjams (talk) 10:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but you don't have a full dump of all the images en.wikipedia relies on (its entire collection, and a lot of commons). That has grown to such titanic size, and at such a rate, that distributing a complete copy online is mostly impractical. I'd hope the Foundation would spend some money making (perhaps a few hundred) copies and distributing them to libraries and universities around the world, but I'm not aware that they or anyone has done that. If this were the world after Apophis, someone may find your or another wikidb replica. So they'd know Ross married Rachel and that Homer's middle name is Jay, but they wouldn't know what a daffodil looked like. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I have 0 affiliation with the foundation, but my understanding is that the entire text history of wikipedia is accessible from the SQL dumps, notwithstanding revedel, etc... [those who know what that is don't wonder about this sort of question]... the image database hasn't been easily dumpable for a very long time, however many of those images are accessible elsewhere, although it might a very useful project to figure out which of those are not and to back those up. The internet Archive has been very open to things like this lately, so if there's a real concern about wikimedia content (which is different from wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure finlay knows that) perhaps they could pick up some slack. In any case, this scenario is one of the last concerns. If this actually happens, getting the internet infrastructure back up matters more... especially for things like phones, etc.... us learning about encyclopedia topics will be a conclusion that can be dealt with later. Also google has a huge database of all of this...that might be more of a target of your concern than this website. Shadowjams (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is just a website. If it disappeared tomorrow, very few would care. And if some extraordinarily obsessive vandal plotted such a crime, he would be extremely unlikely to have what it takes to carry it out. I'd be more concerned about it being hit by a natural disaster, like a hurricane or a Republican presidency. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:53, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The contents of the articles are released once a month or so in database dumps at m:database dumps. A complete dump of English Wikipedia in compressed form is around 30-40GB (maybe a little more by now), which is a cumbersome but still practical amount to download over a home broadband connection to a hard drive. I have a bunch of those dumps and lots of other people have them too, and you can download your own if you have the bandwidth and disk space (around 10h of downloading with a 10Mbit cable modem). The image collection at commons.wikimedia.org is a worse point of vulnerability since it's around 15TB, which is somewhat more than can be downloaded easily. It was really true for a while that it only existed in one physical location, though there is at least one remote copy now. There has been some talk of building off-wikimedia mirrors though progress that I know of has been slow. 69.228.170.132 (talk) 01:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Destruction will come from within; the political battles for control over what is now effectively an owned resource, of great financial value to whoever wins, have already progressed to an advanced stage. Wikipedia will very likely follow the same trajectory as Encyclopedia Dramatica, including the extent of what is preserved and what is lost, and the degree of reduction of traffic, on a mirror site (akin to encyclopediadramatica.se) after its collapse. Wnt (talk) 03:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Nah Wikipedia is not comparable to Encyclopedia Dramatica? It is like compare a mouse to an elephant. I don't think Wikipedia would ever get shut down from within. Remember the SOPA and PIPA are such a big failure. Anything with a bad start will end up like nothing.Pendragon5 (talk) 05:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

What source says. Zeus returned Asclepius and the Cyclopes from Hades.

I read this on the cyclops page. I like that information. I just want to make sure it's true. Because no other website says this. So how is it true. I need the source the editer had. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 05:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This page, which covers the mythology concerning Asclepius in exhaustive detail, attributes to a writer it calls Pseudo-Hyginus the story that Zeus removed Asclepius from Hades and placed him in the heavens as part of the constellation Ophiuchus. Looie496 (talk) 07:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

What source says. Zeus returned the Cyclopes from Hades.

Sorry I was asking about the Cyclopes. What source says Zeus returned the Cyclopes From Hades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 13:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you read Cyclops? It describes the different versions of the myth as depicted by various ancient writers. --Tango (talk) 13:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Follow-up question

ed note: I moved this from a section below because it is good to keep related topics under the same thread--Jayron32 14:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Tango thank you for your answear. I'll describe my question 100% here. My question is. What I am wanting to know. Is what ancient writer. Says Zeus returned the Cyclopes from Hades. I know the Cyclops says that. What I'm wanting to know is where the wikipeidia Editor. Found that information. I'm trying to make sure it's true. Wiki Doc Says "Zeus sadden at the loss of the original three cyclops decided to return them from Hades" I'm asking was this the writer thought. Or was it fact. I ask everybody this question and they cant give me a answear. I've sent E-mail To Greek Mythology teachers and website creator's. They all give me different Answear's. My question where did the source come from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 14:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The Cyclops article says that this story from Hesiod, in his Theogony. I can't speak as to whether this attribution is correct or not. --ColinFine (talk) 16:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Visual art breaking the cyber "fourth wall"

Is there a term to describe a visual artist's referential use of cyber-phenomena within an artwork? I'm thinking this would be some equivalent of the theatrical "breaking the fourth wall" or a metafilm technique. Example (presently viral among huji undergrads): a single-panel cartoon, lower half blank, upper half showing (a) the head to waistline of a cartoon character addressing the reader and (b) truncated text: "Is the Internet in the dorms really slow or is it jus" -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

In their book, Hipgnosis called it "frame breaks" (minus the cyber part, of course)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That example does relate to the dimension of the subject/viewer connection, but the cyber part is essential to what I'm trying to grasp: that the medium itself is referenced (or manipulated) in the image and its underlying message. For another example, from the earlier days of television - The Outer Limits that ended with the announcer saying, "We now return the control of your television set to you..." (or words to that effect). Possibly an upgraded electronic aspect of Magritte's Treachery of Images ("This is not a pipe", etc.) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

How is 1960s television "cyber"...? -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

True, not cyber but a telecommunications medium - not the conventionally spatial "fourth wall" of a frontal visual or audiovisual medium like painting or theatre. -- OP Deborahjay (talk) 16:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

"Cyber" used to be an abbreviation of cybernetic, while now it's mainly an abbreviation of cyberspace. Neither meaning correlates very well with what you seem to be trying to say... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Las Meninas (1656).

An early example of this "fourth wall" breaking (clearly, minus cyber reference) would be Velazquez´ Las Meninas, where the painter has not only included himself (and the rear view of the canvas) in the picture, but also shows a (possible) mirror image of the Spanish royal couple, who would be standing "on the other side" of the painting, observing its progress. There is also the Arnolfini Portrait, which shows a mirror of the scene (possibly including the painter) and the tag of an early grafitto hooligan, Kilroy, oops Jan van Eyck. Our article does not give a painterly / graphic term for this technique.

Both examples, as stated, have no cyber connection, they do, however, recursively reference the painterly procedure. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the PBS(?) show I was watching, Velazquez was possibly painting the royal couple. He certainly wasn't doing a portrait of the infanta from the back. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

PBS or not, this is one of the most-discussed paintings in art, so don't take any one source on it as canonical. It's either him painting the couple, or him painting the infanta from a large mirror. As our article puts it, "No single theory has found universal agreement." --Mr.98 (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

OR: Actually, this is quite simple. Diego Velazquez had a - somewhat obscure - twin brother, Jimenez Velazquez.

The painting Las Meninas depicts the infanta and, on the left, the above mentioned twin brother Jimenez Velazquez painting the royal couple, who are reflected in a mirror in the rear of the painting. The painting Philipp IV and his wife depicts the royal couple and, on the left, the above mentioned twin brother Diego Velazquez painting the infanta, who is reflected in a mirror in the rear of the painting. This latter painting - now lost - was produced simultaneously to the above Las Meninas. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

China vs United States economy

Hi. When will China's economy overtake the United Steates and become the largest economy in the world? --41.196.252.32 (talk) 12:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult to say with any certainty, but it will probably be in a few years. Just Google "Chinese economy overtake US" and you'll find plenty of predictions. For example, the IMF predicted last year that it would be 2016. I think the Chinese economy has slowed a little since then, so it may take a little longer. --Tango (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

BBC says 2020, others 2030 and others even say it has already overtaken the US. The most honest answer is economist always make predictions that are no better than guessing (not educated guess, but just wild guesses). No one know for sure whether it will happen, and if yes, then when. Maybe they are hit so hard by their own bubble that nobody talks about it again. OsmanRF34 (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

They're a lot more than wild guesses. You can extrapolate from current and past trends relatively easily in order to narrow it down to a few years. Getting more precise than that requires some educated guesses about how trends will change. The large differences between predictions you mention are mostly because they are measuring slightly different things. For example, people that say China has already overtaken the US are probably including the unofficial economy (things that don't end up on tax returns - neighbours exchanging favours, for instance, when can be a very important component of rural economies and China is significantly more rural than the US). Once you agree on what it is you are predicting (for example, GDP as measured and published by the IMF) then most economists will make predictions within a reasonably narrow range since it isn't too far in the future. --Tango (talk) 14:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe they would make better predictions that the average Joe and I don't believe a time range of 10-20 years is short term. Lots of things (wars, bubbles exploding, internal conflicts, new technologies) can happen, consequentially the most honest answer is that we don't know what will happen in the next years. This is a position that's rare among economists, admitting the unpredictability of events is apparently not acceptable within their profession. OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm also not sure the event is all that meaningful, given that China has four times the population of the U.S., so on the day that China overtakes the U.S. in GDP, it will still be 1/4th as rich on a per capita basis. In other words, China's economy would have to grow over four times what it is now in order to overtake the U.S. in terms of average living conditions and development and all that. The U.S. is still, on average, a better place to live. Much of China still lives in abject poverty, especially areas outside the big cities. --Jayron32 16:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Exceeding the US in GDP would mean that China has more revenue to spend in the military, research, and investment. Diplomatic and trade relationships with China would become more important for every country in the world, and China's political power would greatly increase. GDP might not be a good indicator of the quality of life, but it's a very good indicator of a country's power in the world. --99.227.95.108 (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm skeptical their GDP would have to go to four times U.S. for arguably comparable living conditions. I think a lot of the U.S. GDP is held in the sort of fiscal sand castles that innovations in the derivatives markets and such tend to create. I have no idea, but I'd bet a larger portion of Chinese GDP in tangible wealth. Of course, direct comparisons of wealth are problematic anyway. The U.S. is said to be wealthier than Britain, but Britons don't have to worry about whether they'll be able to afford medical care when they get sick. A country's rights for its individual people, political and economic, seem to me to be a truer sort of wealth, and one which can be created, or lost, for no money at all. Wnt (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Slate had this chart from Newsweek that predicted it would happen in 2017: [9]. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we're allowed to discuss future events in here but I think I saw Goldman Sachs economic projections that said that it would occur in or around 2027, so in about 15 years. Futurist110 (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no universally-agreed way of measuring the size of an economy, so any answer to this question (even after the event) will be a rough approximation that might be out by many years. The Gross domestic product ("the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period") is often used as an indication, but that article discusses many of the problems with this approach, including the problem of how to convert between GDP values in different currencies. One critical quote from the article: "The GDP framework cannot tell us whether final goods and services that were produced during a particular period of time are a reflection of real wealth expansion, or a reflection of capital consumption. For instance, if a government embarks on the building of a pyramid, which adds absolutely nothing to the well-being of individuals, the GDP framework will regard this as economic growth. In reality, however, the building of the pyramid will divert real funding from wealth-generating activities, thereby stifling the production of wealth." 81.98.43.107 (talk) 19:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think extrapolating current trends is really accurate here. China could stumble in a number of ways:

1) They seem to be getting steadily more aggressive with fishing rights and territorial claims with their maritime neighbors. This can cause blowback, with reduced trade between them.

2) If they invade Taiwan, this would likely result in a global boycott on Chinese goods.

3) The new wealth in China is extremely unequally distributed, leading to tensions. This may cause unrest (strikes, riots, etc.), damaging the economy.

4) They need to clean up the environment from years of neglect, and this costs a lot.

5) They seem to prefer to support military dictatorships, like in Syria and Sudan. If those governments fall or lose territory, this reduces China's power and trade.

6) The One Child Policy will cause a "demographic bomb", where they will have few workers to support many retirees. StuRat (talk) 19:53, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Goldman Sachs isn't extrapolating the current Chinese economic growth rate to 2050. Rather, it projects that the Chinese economic growth rate will decline over the next 40 years as China becomes wealthier and gets less favorable demographics. And for the record, Goldman Sachs has actually underestimated China's, Brazil's, and Russia's economic growth over the last 9 years when it made its original BRIC projections in 2003. And for the record, I'm talking about nominal GDP, not PPP. Futurist110 (talk) 02:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, China tends to avoid taking risks when it comes to its economy. Futurist110 (talk) 02:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Here’s what you need to know to make a reasonable forecast for when the Chinese economy will surpass in size that of the US (assuming it happens): (1) The size of each economy today (this is highly problematic in the case of China, as noted in the reference to the underground economy above). (2) Each economy’s rate of nominal growth, also problematic as China’s figures are highly suspect, and some question the basis for US inflation. (3) Whether to include Taiwan, Hong Kong and / or Macau as part of China; and finally, (4) The exchange rate.

For those who recognize that PPP is actually intended to measure only consumer goods, that means making an assumption on the Rmb:US$ exchange rate. Make your assumptions, do the math and pick any year from 2012 on. Others may wish to blindly copy the CIA or IMF, where the unstated assumption is that a PPP exchange rate would also be valid for foreign trade, capital investment or services consumption.

Government revenue is not necessarily a factor, as different economies may take different amounts out of their economies, and allocate it to different types of spending. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Previous death sentences and re-introduction of the death penalty in the US in 1976

When the death penalty was abolished and re-introduced in 1976 in the US, what happened to previous death sentences? Did they tell inmates, hey Joe, guess what? We actually are gonna execute you. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

My understanding, which might be wrong, is that Furman v. Georgia said, more or less, that all state death penalty statutes are currently unconstitutional. This meant that the states in question had to commute all of these convictions under those statutes into life without parole. Many of the states then re-introduced new death penalty statutes, based on the Furman decision, that applied to anyone convicted after them, which were upheld in Gregg v. Georgia. If this understanding is correct, then nobody who had been on death row prior to Furman would have been on death row again — you can't uncommute a sentence. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not aware of any action to try to reinstate the penalties. Had there been it would likely have been a 9-0 decision to overturn reinstatement based on the Fifth Amendment prohibition of double jeopardy.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

μηδείς (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That's about being tried twice for the same crime, not about sentencing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No. Had they meant tried twice they would have said that, not twice put in jeopardy of life or limb for the same offense. Once put in jeopardy never twice. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This reminds me of something I once heard, "The constitution doesn't need to be interpreted. It's not written in ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs." 203.27.72.5 (talk) 03:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

However my understanding supported by Ex post facto law#United States, is that ex post facto laws (laws that 'retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions committed or relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law') are unconstitutional in the US, and from the description given above, an ex post facto law would be needed here. From the article, it sounds like some additional legal consequences (like registration of sex offenders) which are not punishments are allowed, but applying a death penalty after the fact would surely be. Nil Einne (talk) 22:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Although I do believe there are good reasons to believe retroactive commutation of a sentence is not possible, as Mr.98 points out above, I do not see how this Ex post facto clause would work. I was talking about people who committed murder and were sentences to death according to the law at the time of the act, before the death penalty was put on ice. You wouldn't be applying a new law after the act, just the law at the time of the fact, provided this period without death penalty was just a kind of moratorium, and not an irrevocable commutation to life imprisonment to all. OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The reason you need an ex post facto law is because the convicts were sentanced under a law that was invalidated by Furman v. Georgia, so the death penalty could only be reinstated by a new law (one compliant with Furman v. Georgia) and that new law cannot apply to actions that preceeded it's enactment. So the old law cannot be applied because it's invalidated, and the new law can't extend back to that date, so the convict gets to keep his sentance commuted. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 03:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It wouldn't. As with double jeopardy (I'll take Amendments for 100, Alex!), ex post facto or "after the fact" has to do with crimes being committed. Like if someone discovers that you can get high from inhaling the aroma of jalepeños, they might declare them a controlled substance and criminalize their use. But the guy who reported the findings is off the hook, unless he continues to abuse jalepeños after the ban goes into effect. As a practical matter, once a sentence is commuted, I don't think it's going to be reinstated. There might even be laws against it. But that would be another story, barring some comments here from a good lawyer. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Note clarifications from an actual lawyer, the Hon. Wehwalt. Ex post facto applies to this situation after all. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

But if Mr.98 is correct then you are applying a new law. The death penalty part of original law was invalid, therefore the only way you could give the death penalty was with a new law. The fact that the outcome of the law may be the same doesn't change the fact you are trying to apply a new law after the crime was committed, which logically would violate the restriction on ex post facto laws. You could of course still apply the old law but if Mr.98 is correct and the death penalty part of that law was unconstitutional then you could not apply that part of the law without violating the constitution (or changing it). You can't have a 'moratorium' on something that isn't valid.

P.S. If you're still confused, perhaps ignore the death penalty part completely. Imagine a law (law A) is enacted which is later ruled unconstitutional for being to broad and violating the first amendment. A new law (law B) is passed which the Supreme Court finds is okay. Someone who violated original law A after it was passed but before law B was passed could not logically be held accountable for violating law B for those actions, even if their actions also unsurprisingly violated law A and law A imposed the same punishment. Law A is an invalid law, and law B can't be applied ex post facto as with all laws in the US.

Nil Einne (talk) 02:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The pre-Furman death sentences were not revived by Gregg v. Georgia (1976). That is why you had so few death sentences administered in the late 1970s (Gary Gilmore and a couple of others). Ex post facto can be more than the crime itself, a state can't up the maximum penalty between offense and sentence. Also, once the statute of limitations has run, that's it, the state can't revive it (this differs from civil cases) I've never done a death penalty case (I am not "death certified", in the phrase) but you use the statute as in effect on the date of the supposed offense.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

So your point is that because all existing death penalty clauses of capital crime cases were invalidated by the Supreme Court, none of those case could be resentenced later, because it would have had to been based on a new, hence ex post facto law? μηδείς (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't recall what the mechanism was, but those on death row at the time of Furman had their sentences redone. They could not be executed unless they killed again and were tried under a statute that would pass muster. Needless to say, legislatures moved quickly to pass statutes that satisfied Furman and those cases moved through the courts and resulted in Gregg.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. My memory (which seems to be mostly correct, though not perhaps all of the legal reasoning) came from reading something about Charles Manson and his sentencing (he was sentenced to death then commuted post-Furman; Vincent Bugliosi wasn't happy about it, etc.) years ago. (I am not a lawyer, but my father is, and he is "death certified", so I've picked up a few other notions over the years as well talking with him.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Minor point: Manson's sentence had already been effectively struck down before Furman was decided; several months earlier the California Supreme Court had already taken care of this in California v. Anderson. I say "effectively" because I don't know whether he was still formally under sentence of death at that time. --Trovatore (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I seem to recall that when Ginny Foat was charged post-Furman, in Louisiana, for a pre-Furman murder, the authorities asserted that the death penalty was under consideration (presumably under the law as it existed in 1965). Of course they can assert anything they like, and for all I know it was just a tactical measure to prevent bail from being granted or some such.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the situation is a little more complicated than "Furman struck down all existing death penalty laws, and those laws were thenceforward invalid". Maybe not a lot more complicated, but a little more. For example, the state could perhaps have tried her under their 1965 law and then attempted to argue that that law (which perhaps had been changed by 1972?) was not one of the ones struck down by Furman. Whatever the case, they didn't do that, and she was acquitted in any case. --Trovatore (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Largest bunker by population ?

What/ where is the largest bunker in the world that can had the largest number of people?
Also what limits (if any) of the number of people or how big one builds the bunker etc are there?
For example in various films, they build bunkers that can hold millions of people for decades or more, could one actualy build a bunker that big?80.254.146.140 (talk) 14:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it depends on what you define as a "bunker", but the entire London Underground was used as an improvised bunker during The Blitz. See History of the London Underground#World War II. I'm not sure what the total number of people there were sheltered in the Underground at any one time during The Blitz, but it must have been impressively large at times. No idea how large it is compared to other bunkers, but the secret bunker built under The Greenbrier resort in West Virginia (aka Project Greek Island) was designed to house all of Congress and their families, which with support staff would mean that at least 1000 people if not more. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, however, if other purpose-built bunkers were larger. --Jayron32 14:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Our article on air-raid shelter says on the London tube: An estimated 170,000 people sheltered in the tunnels and stations during World War II. It also mentions that Finland has over 40,000 air-raid shelters which can house 3.8 million people (71% of the population). Helsinki, built on bedrock, certainly has a large "underground city" which, partly, is used commercially. Some of the deep sections of the Moscow Metro and the Prague Metro (one of the escalators is reportedly 100 m long and the longest in Europe) were planned to be used as fall-out shelters during the Cold War. For Russia, see Metro-2. China is also reported to have build vast underground complexes. Beijing´s Underground City reportedly covers an area of 85km^2. Of course, it may be speculated that numerous underground shopping malls in a variety of cities have been planned as fall-out shelters.

If you are also interested in "non-human" bunkers, our article on the Norwegian submarine base Dora 1 states that it was designed to house 16 submarines and 200,000 soldiers. The size is about 150m * 100 m. The usable area would have been less as the walls are 3m thick. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the 200,000 claim from the Dora 1 article, as it's unsourced and wildly unrealistic. The entire German force in Norway at the time was only around 300,000 and I suspect that's where the misunderstanding has come from. The aim was to protect the U-boats, and the people building the base had enough trouble just trying to do that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Underground city has lots of potential answers. Also see cave#Records and superlatives for some of the largest natural cave systems, some of which could be usable as bunkers. Subterranea (geography) is a catch-all article. I'm not sure you will get a solid answer though - a lot of natural caves haven't been fully explored, while a lot of underground buildings are in a state of disrepair and many are not open to the public. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Not what the op asked, but Albania has the most bunkers for its population: Bunkers in Albania.Smallman12q (talk) 17:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Canada and Islamic fundamentalism, terrorism

Hi, something that's always caught my attention is that terrorists, Islamic terrorists have never aimed their violence at Canada, despite Canada's involvement in the War in Afghanistan and support of the War on Terror. My question is, has there been any foiled terrorist plot against Canada? or some attempt by terrorists to hit Canada? Thank you. Nienk (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There's at least the 2006 Ontario terrorism plot, there may be others. See Terrorism in Canada, though that article is about terrorism in general, not only Islamic terrorism. - Lindert (talk) 22:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Sure, there was the 2006 Ontario terrorism plot. There is also Omar Khadr, although he was caught in Afghanistan. And not Islamic or aimed directly at Canada, but Air India Flight 182 originated in Canada. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:20, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Some more: link 1, link 2. According to prime minister Stephen Harper, Islamic terrorism is the biggest threat to Canada (I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm just reporting it.) - Lindert (talk) 22:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If Islamic terrorism is the biggest threat to Canada, then Canada's a pretty safe place. HiLo48 (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't underestimate Islamic terrorism nor Harper's words since Canada has been pretty active in the War on Terror and War in Afghanistan. Nienk (talk) 22:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It is hardly Canada's fault that Muslim terrorist plots are generally highly incompetent. As someone said, they only have to succeed once, we have to prevent them every time. μηδείς (talk) 03:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"We have to prevent them every time"? I've usually seen such an attitude in the context of nuclear missiles or something like that — where one failure is total failure — but I haven't seen it for terrorism. Whomever voiced that particular opinion has an exaggerated fear of terrorism. There are many things to be afraid of in the world; I'm not sure terrorism qua terrorism should be at the top of the list, at least in the Western world, where it is still an exceedingly rare way to die. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

A terrorist with bomb materials was apprehended while crossing into the US from Canada near Seattle. There was also arson in a Jewish library in Montreal. StuRat (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot also seems to have been partially aimed at Canada. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

August 26

How many men are in Canada's jails for child support?

HOW MANY MEN ARE IN CANADA'S JAILS FOR CHILD SUPPORT — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.93.174.34 (talk) 04:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Not nearly as many as are in for failure to pay child support. StuRat (talk) 05:09, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably very few. It seems courts will negotiate, garnish bank accounts and seize personal property before resorting to jail time for child support defaulters. [10] [11]. 184.147.128.34 (talk) 05:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

According to these stats, there are about 35,000 or fewer adults in jail in Canada. According to these stats, between 2 and 9 per cent of court cases are for "Fail to Comply with Order". Only a fraction of these again would be about child support, so you're looking at fewer than 3,000 people - I expect the real answer is far, far lower. I could not find stats on exactly what you are looking for, but keep checking back as someone else may well turn them up soon. 184.147.128.34 (talk) 05:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

That table doesn't seem to separate "failure to comply with a court order" and "failure to comply with a probation order", which are different sections of the Criminal Code. If they're lumped in together that may skew the numbers - breach of probation is commonly used to get gang members off the streets, so it's a fairly common charge. --NellieBly (talk) 05:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Why don't Muslims know what day Eid-ul-Fitr is?

Pretty simple question, but I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to it. People say it depends on the moon, but we already know what the moon will do tomorrow, the day after that, and hundreds of years from now. We have known exactly what the moon will do tomorrow for hundreds of years. We can predict eclipses, new moons, full moons... the whole shabang. So why the confusion? Wrad (talk) 05:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Our article on Eid-ul-Fitr says, "Although the date of Eid ul-Fitr is always the same in the Islamic calendar, the date in the Gregorian calendar falls approximately 11 days earlier each successive year, since the Islamic calendar is lunar and the Gregorian calendar is solar. Hence if the Eid falls in the first ten days of a Gregorian calendar year, there will be a second Eid in the last week of the same Gregorian calendar year. The Gregorian date may vary between countries depending on the local sightability of the new moon. Some expatriate Muslim communities follow the dates as determined for their home country, while others follow the local dates of their country of residence. In the Islamic calendar, a new day, and therefore also Eid ul-Fitr, begins at sunset." Looie496 (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) They don't? Eid-ul-Fitr falls on the first day of Shawwal every year. I'm pretty sure the Islamic calendar is well established and not mysterious at all. Where did you hear that it was mysterious? I've never heard this. (post EC comment after Looie's answer). As Looie points out, the exact timing of when Eid-ul-Fitr is celebrated will vary from place to place locally, but they all know when it is, at least for themselves in their locality. --Jayron32 05:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

That's just it. They don't know when it is. I was in Morocco this summer, and everyone said that Eid would be on one of two days, "depending on the moon," but that doesn't make any sense, given that we can predict with breathtaking accuracy exactly how the moon will appear in the sky on any given day or night years into the future. Why the uncertainty? Wrad (talk) 05:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah. I see the source of the confusion. The article Islamic calendar explains it well. To quote: "A majority of theologians oppose the use of calculations (beyond the constraint that each month must be not less than 29 nor more than 30 days) on the grounds that the latter would not conform with Muhammad's recommendation to observe the new moon of Ramadan and Shawal in order to determine the beginning of these months" There's cites there too. It seems that Muhammad proclaimed that direct observation of the new moon was required, and that many Muslims take this to be a prohibition on actyally calculating when that should be. I stand corrected. Of course, it would be trivial for anyone to "look up" when any given new moon would be, but many faithful muslims would see this as a sort of blasphemy, and instead wait each night to observe it directly. That seems to be what's going on here. --Jayron32 05:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

According to [12] scholars differ as to what "seeing" the new moon means. Wrad (talk) 05:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It's just a tradition really, not that they can't otherwise figure it out. Sort of like a serious version of Groundhog Day. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Wrad -- there's a schematic (i.e. fixed in advance) version of the Islamic calendar which is used for some limited purposes, but for determining the date of religious observances in any one region, the criterion for the start of the month (according to traditional Islamic legal interpretation) is the date when the thin crescent moon is first observed in the west around sunset in that region. There are algorithms to predict when the new crescent moon will likely be visible or not visible on a particular day in a given area, but any such algorithm will always have borderline cases, and few Muslim religious scholars would feel confident in replacing actual eyewitness testimony with a mathematical algorithm. Of course, there's a problematic trend in some areas of crescent sightings being reported and accepted on days when on astronomical grounds it seems extremely unlikely that a crescent would be visible.

The Islamic calendar could be considered to have problems in accuracy (i.e. since the year is always 12 lunar months, the Islamic calendar rotates rapidly through the seasons, so that an observance which is in summer one year will be in winter 17 years later), and with indeterminacy (i.e. it is not known in advance exactly when each month will begin, and months can begin on different dates in different parts of the world). However, one advantage of the Islamic calendar is that there are no calendar schisms -- all you have to do to maintain the Islamic calendar is observe young crescent moons at sunset each month and keep track of where the current month is in a cycle of 12. So Muslims everywhere never disagree by more than one day as to what the current date is. By contrast, in Christianity the Coptic, Ethiopian, and Armenian churches use quite different calendars from the Gregorian calendar, the Old Calendarists still use the Julian calendar, most eastern Orthodox now theoretically use the "Revised Julian" calendar (though the revised Julian calendar will not differ from the Gregorian calendar until 2800 A.D.), and western Christians vs. Orthodox use different methods for determining Easter. Historically, the Jews of Hellenistic and Roman times had competing calendars advocated by different sub-groups (though many of the details of such calendar schisms have been lost -- see Enoch calendar etc.), the calendar used by the Parsees of Iran was a month off from the calendar used by the Parsees of India, etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

As others have said: it's not just the shape of the moon (to formulate it rather clumsily) it is also when it is observed by Muslims. This, of course, begs the question, what if it happens to be cloudy on the day that the new moon should be visible? (Given that a month shouldn't be longer than 30 days, I suppose it means that they just wait till the next day.) V85 (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The Jewish lunar calendar, and the lunar calculations involved in determining the date of Easter among Christians, are based on calculating the absolute new moon (astronomical conjunction) and/or full moon (astronomical opposition), events which have an objective astronomical definition, and whose timing does not change depending where on the earth you're located. The beginning of the Islamic month is sometimes called "new moon", but this is not meant to be astronomical conjunction, but rather first crescent visibility, which varies between different geographical areas, and usually occurs at least 18 hours (often more) after astronomical conjunction... AnonMoos (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Jewish Immigration to the Americas Over Western Europe

How much there was much greater Jewish immigration to North & South America (from Eastern Europe) in the 19th and early 20th century than there was to Western Europe? Western Europe was far closer, and it had roughly the same standard of living as the United States and Canada. You could point out nationalism, but nationalism wasn't too widespread in all Western European countries and the U.S. had its own fair share of ethnic (and racial) prejudice during this time period as well. Futurist110 (talk) 05:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

America had the reputation of a land of opportunity, and (until the 1920s) an open door policy. Western Europe had been hostile to Jews over the centuries, and still was not exactly friendly, and might not be thrilled by Jewish immigration. America had not had pogroms, had the reputation of a less-stratified society, and it was said you could become wealthy in the goldene land. Both of my grandfathers came over in the early 20th century (one after a stint in Montreal). I went back to the ancestral village in southern Poland four years ago, with one of my brothers. It did not look like it brimmed with opportunity.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. had some anti-Semitism as well, and did Western Europe actually have any pogroms in the 19th century? Wait--your grandfather is Jewish and currently lives in Poland? That's pretty cool, considering that there are extremely few Jews in Poland right now. I wasn't talking about Poland, though, but about such countries as France, Britain, Germany, the Scandivanian countries, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, the Low Countries, and Austria. Also, I want to point about that some Western European countries (France, etc.) did have an open door immigration policy in the 19th and early 20th centuries as well. Futurist110 (talk) 06:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

My grandfather is no longer with us (these 37 years) but he came from a small town in what is now Southern Poland. He vastly preferred the Bronx, and subsequently Miami Beach. We did get to speak, when we visited Wola Raniżowska, with an elderly man (through a translator) who remembered the 1940s, though he was reticent.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, France had the Dreyfus Affair. That'd turn me off, right there. --Activism1234 06:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It would have probably turned me off as well, until Dreyfus would have been exonerated and the French would have admitted that they made fools of themselves. After that point, I'd be more turned on by France. Futurist110 (talk) 06:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. French anti-Semitism still ran high at that point, and was only really exonerated due to outrage from some French sectors and a load of evidence that would've ashamed France. There were still newspapers which were openly anti-Semitic and discrimination, as in any European country. And the fact that Dreyfuss was imprisoned to begin with, when it was known that the accusations were false and baseless, would've been deeply disturbing (indeed, sufficient to trigger Herzl's motivation for Zionism). Of course, this is just one example of such (not saying that there wasn't discrimination either in the U.S., but certainly wasn't as full-blown). --Activism1234 06:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

At least according to legend, the opportunity of America was a big deal. Streets paved with gold and all that. Chance to make it big.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that has proved true for many immigrants, such as Andrew Carnegie. --Activism1234 06:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"Many Jews landing in England actually intended to go to America, but about 120,000 stayed in this country."[13]. See also History of the Jews in England. Alansplodge (talk) 08:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I will just add to what others have pointed out before, namely that there was still anti-Semitism in Western Europe in the 19th and early 20th century. Apparently Jews weren't granted equality before the law in Sweden till 1910. Even if the actual situation might have been better in the past, rumours and attitudes have a tendency to die hard, so that restrictions on Jews, even if they might no longer be in force, might still be seen as a deterrent. (Even if they were no longer in force, the fact that such regulations had once existed could imply that they would be re-introduced.)

As for choosing America over Europe, I think it was probably due to the fact that it was a trend in the times. In addition to Jews going to America, there were also a lot of Western Europeans leaving Europe for America. Between 1850 and 1930, about 5 million Germans immigrated to the United States, along with 3.5 million Brits and 4.5 millions Irish. This would seem to imply that even if living conditions in Europe were 'comparable' to those of the USA, there was still something that was more alluring in the US compared to Europe. As others have pointed out, the perception that you could make it big 'across the pond'. In addition, of course, this was a period when the US was growing territorially, so there was enough land for the immigrants (pace Native Americans), whereas in Europe, the land was already settled. And, if you're first going to relocate, why not go to where you believe your life can be the best it can, as compared to going for 'somewhere close', where it will be OK? V85 (talk) 18:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It was a well-trodden path, due to competition, steerage fares were relatively low, and there was some expectation of help on the other side from those who had already made it across. There were mutual aid societies, often broken down by religion and then by home town or country, that helped out with initial loans, and of course you repaid. My maternal grandfather was a member of such a society, though, unfortunately, I cannot remember the name of it, but it was the name of a town, though oddly enough, not the place he came from (he was from Minsk). He and my grandmother are buried in a plot in a section which the society bought for its members, and you paid for so much a week. Wages were often higher in the US, too, for the same work, that was a great attraction and far from unknown, in fact it was advertised, as were the prices of goods, selected of course for best effect.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

who are considered to be the 3 most greatest men who ever lived?

who are considered to be the 3 greatest men who ever lived? Or, if there is no consensus, what are some common suggestions for the 3 greatest men who ever lived? --80.99.254.208 (talk) 11:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Obviously there is no consensus. If you polled the world's population, probably lots of people would list Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha. Most people listing one of these as #1 probably wouldn't put the others in their top 3. Staecker (talk) 12:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Define "great" or "greatest". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

If one defines it by the person's impact on humanity and human history, then Alexander the Great and Adolf Hitler would be candidates for the top three along with the religious figures already mentioned. (Hitler's impact was overwhelmingly negative, though, whereas Alexander's ideology was pretty harmless, and his biggest flaw was alcoholism.) Some might make a case for Karl Marx or Mahatma Gandhi.

Going with more traditional definitions of greatness, maybe Leonidas is your man. Or Socrates, who was also a keen soldier as well as his other qualities, according to a biased source. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The romantic image of Leonidas prevails after 300 I see. The reality was darker. Leonidas was a Spartan citizen, a spartiate. True, the spartiate hoplites are unparalleled in battle in Ancient Greece, but that's because from childhood, all they did was train for combat, and I mean all. Ask yourself who farmed their fields and did the rest of the labor required for their city and you'll get the darker truth. Spartans were like the Nazis of Ancient Greece, eugenics and slavery. They even had their own version of the Gestapo. I personally prefer the Theban boeotarch Epaminondas. Elected by democratic assembly, cheeky in his spiting of the Spartan King Agesilaus II, a genius in battle and defeated the Spartans several times (something that had never been done for decades prior to that), shattered the Spartan hold over Peloponnese, and freed the Messenians from 200 years of Spartan slavery.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 14:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

That's why Demiurge went with the traditional definitions of greatness. By that definition, Hitler would certainly be one of the greatest people to ever live. He wasn't even particularly cruel compared to the Spartans, the Mongolians under Genghis Khan, or the Spanish conquistadors--he just happened to have far more resources and better technology. --99.227.95.108 (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Just saying. Most people who've watched the movie think Leonidas was a pillar of virtue and personal sacrifice. He wasn't. He was simply a product of his upbringing. Like all spartiates, he was arrogant and bloodthirsty, literally bred to be unquestioning supersoldiers of the Spartan state. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 02:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

For one version of the most influential persons in history, see The 100 (version of 20:47, 24 August 2012), where sentence 3 of paragraph 3 is incorrect grammatically and ambiguous, because "substituted … with" should be either "substituted … for" or "replaced … with", which have opposite meanings.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The article "List of books about Jesus" (version of 19:01, 22 May 2012) mentions a book titled The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived and published in 1990.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Leonidas? Heh, give me a break. This is an unanswerable question, all you got is personal opinion, and completely against reference desk guidelines. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Who from wikipedia wrote the Cyclops page. Also Who wrote Asclepius on Wiki Doc.

Sorry about the mistakes in the first page. Ignore the first question I wrote. I got drunk yesterday. I still have the effects from it. Read the edited question I wrote right now.

No one here seems to know the answear to my question. So do any of you know who does. I want to talk to them. I read three pages on wikipedia that says. Zeus retured Asclepius and the Cyclops from Hades. I know Asclepius was made into a god. Greek mythology teachers confirm. One told me that no writer said who made Asclepius into a god. That does not madder. What I want to know. Two Greek mythology teachers told me that no soruce ever says. That Zeus returned the Cyclops from Hades. After Apollo killed them. I know that a Sicily legend says. The ghost's of the Cyclops dwell under the volcano mount Etna. If it is true that Zeus returned the Cyclops to mount Etna. I want to know who put it on the wikipedia pages. And how they got that information. What ancient writer says it. It is not written by Hesdoid. I cant spell his name. However I know for a fact that hesdiod did not write about it. Neither did the guy who wrote the play about Apollo killing the Cyclops for Zeus killing his son Asclepius. He was a slave to a king for one year. I know that. I also know how ever. I cant spell his name. I'm not going to try. I will just say. I know the play says nothing about Zeus returning the Cyclops from Hades. because I read it. So what writer wrote about Zeus returning the Cyclops from Hades. Because none of the writer's on the Cyclops page. Said anything about it. Who wrote the Cyclops page and the Asclepius page. Sorry about this question being long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 15:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Revision history of Wikipedia's page Asclepius - this tells you who wrote it.
• Revision history of Wikipedia's page Cyclops - this tells you who wrote that.

How do you know that Hesiod did not write about these things?

Also, are you aware that Zeus, Apollo and the Cyclopes are fictional, or at best mythological? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The play you are referring to is Alcestis by Euripides, by the way (and you're right, it doesn't say that). Adam Bishop (talk) 15:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The OP is correct that Hesiod's Theogony contains nothing about the Cyclopes' being released from the underworld by Zeus. It does say that Zeus freed the Hekatonkheires from Tartarus and enlisted them in the fight against the Titans, but basically all Hesiod recounts about the Cyclopes is their parentage, names, and one-eyedness. Everything in Cyclops#Hesiod after the first three sentences is incorrect as an account of what's in the Theogony. Deor (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Me again Thankyou for your feedback. And by the way Demiurge1000. Thank you for helping me contact the writer's. My responce to your commet about Greek Mythology not being real. Doesn't madder. Greek Mythology madder's to me. I'm obessed with it. In the most crazy way. You can say I'm insane. Because I have OCD. I also have Bio polar. Greek Mythology is the most important thing in my life. I decided when I was a kid To put it first in life. Before everything else. Even people and my life. I have OCD really bad. It's a serious Illness. So accuse me for being weird. And insane. And obessed. I am a over emotional person no one can understand that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 20:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Is a Unitarian Universalist church a religious organization or an interfaith organization?

Definition of Religion: Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that generally involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief.

OK. This definitely does not match up to the Unitarian Universalist church, which seeks to include different religious traditions into its own. It originates from Christianity and Judaism, but allows members to have their own theological beliefs. At the same time, they refer to God as if they are monotheists, not polytheists. They claim themselves to be a religious organization, but I suspect they lie closer to interfaith organization or monotheistic interfaith organization. Seldom do they say "the gods"; rather, they would say "God loves all," as if they believe in one god. They lack a specific creed; rather, people of established religions can become a Unitarian Universalist. In that way, the group does not seem to be any different from the ecumenical Christian organization, Habitat for Humanity. So, what's with the "religious" label? What's so religious about the organization when there are no set of codified beliefs or shared creed or set of rituals that every member in the organization share? Do they call themselves "religious" in a sense like Confucianism, which is more of an ethical-philosophical belief system?

Just wondering.

75.185.79.52 (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

From my understanding, as one who would call themselves a Unitarian Universalist, God is all, is in all: in whom we live, move and have our being. The religion side is taking religious practices, rituals and beliefs from wherever they occur, examining them to see how they work and fit together, and whether they have any benefit to others on their spiritual paths. We meet together on a regular basis, but services tend to be - em, interesting and thought-provoking. If you're looking for the same ritual week after week go to an Anglican church! The idea is to support each other on our spiritual paths. We have atheists attend our services too. Personally I don't call myself "religious" because of the connotation of "ritual": I call myself "spiritual". The closest we get to a shared belief system is the Seven Principles, listed in the article I linked to. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Interesting insider's perspective. However, this brings up some concerns. If there are atheists in your church, how in the world are atheists going to be interested in participating in theology? Atheism is by definition the lack of belief in a god. If one does not believe in a god, then how can one "study" gods? Atheists can, however, study religion or sacred texts, which may or may not include gods. By the name "Unitarian", it implies that there is one god. By the name "Universalist", it implies that God is everywhere. See how this claim can easily be perceived as doctrine? If this is one of the doctrines of the church, then someone who is an atheist or polytheist will most likely disagree. They may agree with the humanitarian principles, but they will disagree that there is no god or that there are many gods. In addition, the Seven Principles are so humanistic that that it is inconceivable to think that other religions will disagree with them. What kind of religion in the world would promote cruelty and suffering? What kind of religion in the world would promote torture and killing? What kind of religion in the world would condone evil? Based on the points I have addressed, it seems that there really is nothing unique in Unitarian Universalism; it seems that it's leaning more towards interfaith, or a monotheistic interfaith group that welcomes people from different religious backgrounds and worships together as one. 20:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.79.52 (talk)

The "Universalist" started out as a counter-Calvinist position, in other words that everyone was "saved" by the death and resurrection Jesus Christ, as opposed to only a limited number of believers being saved. The notion that God is everywhere and in everything is called panentheism. "Unitarian" church started out as one of the first sects of Protestant Christianity: indeed the one I go to is over 400 years old. It started out as recognising that God is one being, rather than divided into three (Trinitarianism). The ethos of the modern religion is to promote this sort of discussion and to see where truth may lie. To this end we try and avoid the "you're wrong and you're going to hell" type of religious dialogue, which gets us nowhere. As to "what kind of religion in the world would promote torture and killing", see Thuggee. I wouldn't disagree with your analysis of the UU religion, but it has a history which is valued and recognised. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to be fair on the first point, I am a Christian who is a member of a Southern Baptist church, and I can say unambiguously that we want athiests in our Church. From a Christian perspective, that's kinda the entire point, per Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 1:8. Again, just speaking for myself as an Evangelical Christian, we believe that our message is for the unbeliever as much, if not more than, for the believer. For any missionary religion, which seeks converts, reaching other with their message seems like it would be a goal, and I don't find it surprising that the UU faith would seek out athiests. Again, I am not a UU, so I don't want to speak for them, but I know as a Christian, I definately want athiests to attend my church. --Jayron32 22:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The quote is known as the "Great Commission", and reading straightforwardly, it's about baptizing people in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. I do not think Unitarian Universalist has an official creed, but rather "a diverse theology" where everyone chooses his or her own path to a monotheistic god or higher power. Unitarian Universalist tolerate other religious views and traditions and allow them in the church, because they see different theologies are personal pursuits to God. Christianity does not tolerate other views and traditions and allow them in the church, because it has a fixed creed that varies across denominations, but united in the belief of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I think Christians expect members in their churches to believe in the same core beliefs as they do: that Jesus is the Christ, that Jesus died for their sins, that Jesus is their savior, that Jesus resurrected from the dead, etc. 23:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.79.52 (talk)

Yes, but as a Christian, how do you bring someone to those beliefs unless they are sitting in the Church getting the message? If Christians only worship with other Christians, and keep everyone else out, then it is a closed system. Of course, some Christian churches work that way, and some Christians work that way. But my personal theology doesn't read that as Christ's intention for his church. --Jayron32 01:57, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

See 1 Corinthians 1:10 and 2 Corinthians 6:14 and Ephesians 4:5.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Colton Harris-Moore

How many years he has to serve in jail? I don't really understand how it works. There are the federal charge with 6.5 years and the state charge with 7 years. So he will end up getting 13.5 years in prison? Or will he end up getting 7 years total?184.97.225.6 (talk) 18:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

His article says, 'his federal sentence will be served jointly with state prison time'. I understand that to be 7 years in total. Dalliance (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

And when did he start stealing things? I mean not when he was little. When he started to steal thing like cars, boats and airplane that eventually leads to his capture in 2010.184.97.225.6 (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Most Evil

I like the TV show Most Evil, and I saw the episode Deadly Desires in which several serial killers are featured, and one of them is Westley Allan Dodd to whom they categorize as one of the most evil serial killers in history. Our own article on him agrees with that. Is that right to categorize someone as evil rather than sick or something like that? Nienk (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It might or might not be right, but I doubt it's encyclopedic. The refdesk is not really the place to suggest corrections to articles, though. You might deal with that article directly, or start a conversation on the Wikipedia:Village Pump if you think it's a more systematic problem --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Now I've looked at the article — it doesn't say he was "most evil", just that he "has been called" that, and that claim appears to be sourced. I'm not completely sure it belongs in the second sentence, and I'm also not sure it should just say he has been called evil without naming those that called him that in the same sentence, but it is not as bad a problem as would be an article that flat out called him evil itself. --Trovatore (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? I don't think he is the most evil at all. He is evil hell yea but not the "most". I have heard and read way worse people than him, like killing more people, more evil ways of torture or killing...65.128.133.237 (talk) 23:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps... but what you or I think does not matter... what sources think, on the other hand, might (That depends on the source). Since apparently several sources have called him "most" evil, we at least need to examine who called him that... then we have to decide whether their opinion is worth mentioning in the article (See WP:UNDUE). Blueboar (talk) 01:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I want to better understand where Wikipedia's sources come from.

When writing on History. The people that work for Wikipedia. Where do they get all their information on History. What can cause it to be incorrect. Why is their allways a disbute. About Wikipedia giving false information. I know they ofter change things. They correct mistakes. Ive also read that they have had false information about people in pages. That have sit out for years. I know its hard to give correct information about famous people. There's allways rumors about people. I like to know how the writer's who are working for Wikipedia for free. What is the system they use. To write their pages. On history can they ever give incorrect historic information. What is their editing system they use. And the people who edit articles. I know how that works they debate. I'm just making sure that Wikipedia on history is not ever a persons opion or mistake on memory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.228.62 (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles (the good ones, anyway) cite their sources. You can look up the reference for a particular fact for yourself to verify it. Mistakes can certainly happen, which is why we recommend anyone using Wikipedia for serious research check the sources themselves instead of relying on Wikipedia. --Tango (talk) 21:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Contributors get their information from reliable sources that have previously been published elsewhere and can be verified. Personal opinion and unsupported anecdotes are not acceptable, and may be removed on sight. Disagreements over wording, use of reliably sourced information, or controversial topics, are dealt with by discussion. The blue links will take you to certain key policies that direct the work of the volunteers. - Karenjc 22:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is edited by thousands and thousands of people: some of them are careful and conscientious about getting solid references. Some of them mean well, but do not understand about reliable sources. Some of them are vandals. --ColinFine (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

See WP:HISTRS for the standards for sourcing for history articles. Like most standards, they are regularly neglected in production environments. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Race/Ethnicity/Religion in Historical National Censuses

Which (national) censuses were the first to record race, ethnicity, and/or religion? I know that the U.S. recorded data/info about race since its very first census in 1790, and likewise Russia for ethnicity since 1897. What about other countries, though? Futurist110 (talk) 23:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the table in Census in the United Kingdom, a question on "ethnic group" wasn't added until 1991, so I think we can safely say the UK wasn't the first. --Tango (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this info. I'm actually very surprised that it took the U.K. until the closing of the Cold War to add an ethnicity category to its census. Futurist110 (talk) 03:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. census is forbidden from asking about a person's religion. AnonMoos (talk) 01:22, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I knew that, but why? Also, I was asking about at least one of the three things that I mentioned, not necessarily all three combined. Futurist110 (talk) 02:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. government has an uneasy relationship with religion owing to the clauses on religion in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. While asking an open-ended question on a census would likely be OK, many govenrment organizations and functions tend to take the most restrictive approach, which is to ignore religion altogether, that way they stand no chance of being accused of violating constitutional rights. --Jayron32 02:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Well, at least the U.S. still keeps collecting data on race, which is very useful and interesting for demographic purposes. Futurist110 (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It says on the Argentine Jews and German census of 1895 Wikipedia articles that some ethnicities (Jews in Argentina, Germans and Poles in Germany) and/or religions (Catholics and Protestants in Germany) were counted in those countries in the censuses in 1895 there. Futurist110 (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the answer would be much older than previous suggestions. I don't know if race/religion was included in the censuses organised by the Roman Empire, China's Han Dynasty, Ancient Egypt etc, but it was definitely relevant to the Rashidun Caliphate, who had different laws and taxation for muslims and non-muslims. According to Michael the Syrian, the purpose of the census was specifically to introduce a poll tax on Christians (he's biased, of course, but presumably this was at least part of the reason). 59.108.42.46 (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's a question, though--did the various Muslim empires take censuses by person, or by household? I'm only talking and asking about censuses by person here. Futurist110 (talk) 04:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Article 1, Sec. 2 of the US Constitution requires a census every 10 years, with the first being held in 1790. As each state’s number of congressional representatives is determined by population (“the number of whole free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, [and] three fifths of all other persons”), the need for a periodic census was evident. The subsequent law (March 1, 1790) directed that the names of the heads of families be recorded, the number of white males sixteen and older, the number of white males under sixteen, the number of white females, the number of all other free persons, and the number of slaves. Slaves were first identified by name in the US census of 1850.DOR (HK) (talk) 06:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, but I knew that, as evidenced by my first comment in this thread. Futurist110 (talk) 06:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. census only began recording individual names in 1850. Before that only the head of family's name was recorded and data on other family members (so by household, not individual). 75.41.109.190 (talk) 13:57, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Release Date of Newest U.S. Population Projections?

http://www.census.gov/population/www/projections/natproj.html

• Based on the above website, it appears that the U.S. Census Bureau releases new population projections every election year. My question is if anyone knows the timing for the release of this year's new U.S. Census population projections? Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

August 27

Audiobook for . . .

Hi I am searching desperately for an audio book version of:

Save the Males:Why men matter and why women should care by Kathleen Parker 2008

I have checked almost a dozen audio CD places and audiobook sites but so far no luck :-( thanks for any help! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.148.29 (talk) 00:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you have reason to believe that someone made an audio version? Dismas|^(talk) 01:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I know that some e-readers like Amazon Kindle have a text-to-speech function. It is a bit unnatural, as opposed to an actual audio book, but if there is nothing else, there is always that. --Jayron32 02:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Though it should be noted that — I believe — publishers can disable that functionality on a per-book basis at their whim. So it may not actually be an option. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Audiobooks are more common in fiction than in non-fiction - and especially more serious non-fiction - because there isn't a market for them. With a serious non-fiction book, people want to be able to mark it up, refer to footnotes, make copies, compare pages in chapters, etc. and that makes the audiobook format less appealing to readers. (I assume you're not looking for this book for a visually impaired person; if you are, check with your local "books for the blind" organization.) --NellieBly (talk) 05:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Questions about law in the Victorian period

I am currently writing a novel set in the Victorian era in Australia. I have checked out books on the subject and searched the Internet, but I can't find out particular information on the legal system of the time. First, what was the difference between murder and manslaughter then, if they differentiated it in the first place? And if they did, what was the difference in sentences? Also, when was the first time female lawyers appeared? Thank you for your help, I much appreciate it.Southernlegacy (talk) 01:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Prior to 1901, as I'm sure you know, Australia was a collection of crown colonies. According to that article, each colony had its own independent legal system, largely based on English Common law but adjustable according to local circumstances. I would expect that in most places, if not everywhere, the answer to your question about murder versus manslaughter would have been the same as for Common law. Regarding female lawyers I have no information, but it would surprise me if there were any during the Victorian era. Looie496 (talk) 03:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Doing some digging, I found some information on pioneering female lawyers. Ethel Benjamin was New Zealand's first practicing female lawyer, and started practicing in the late Victorian era. Mary Hall was an early American female lawyer, and she practised in the Victorian era (1880s-1890s). Canadian Clara Brett Martin is noted as the first female lawyer in the British Empire, she started practising shortly before Ethel Benjamin. I can't find any information on who the first female lawyer in Australia would have been, but in other Anglophone countries it seems that there were a small handful of female lawyers in the late Victorian era. --Jayron32 05:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

For your first question therefore, a good place to start would be Manslaughter in English law. Alansplodge (talk) 10:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

And some mention of manslaughter in 19th century Australia in Fault in Homicide: Towards a Schematic Approach to the Fault Elements for ... By Stanley Meng Heong Yeo (always assuming that Google Books lets you see this preview). Alansplodge (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Finally, the history of the concept of manslaughter in this paper which refers to Ireland, which too is based on the English system. Alansplodge (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Me again; it would seem that the relevant legislation in England, Wales and Ireland was the Offences against the Person Act 1861. A summary is here. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

And, slightly related, is The Merchant of Venice, a fictional work yes, and pre-Victorian (by several centuries) but one which is decidedly relevent to the OPs question. --Jayron32 15:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Countercultures

Besides Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice, is there any other countercultures articles on Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.107.242 (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Category:Counterculture (and its subcategories). AnonMoos (talk) 01:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Why does the United States have relatively more shootings than most developed countries?

Ever since that Colorado theater shooting last month, there has been a number of high-profile shootings, like that one at a Sikh temple and at the Empire State Building. But I was wondering – why? I know it's probably because of the lack of effective gun laws, but what are other possible reasons, especially psychological or political? While there are a few other countries like Canada that have more guns per people, murders and shootings aren't as common. In fact, I'm not aware of any developed country that has shootings as frequent as the US. Why does America have so many shootings in the first place? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

One reason that comes to my mind, obviously, is how the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution affects gun politics in the United States. However, as Gun politics in the United States#Rate of homicides by firearm points out, violent crime rates in the United States are lower than in other advanced countries. Of course, you have the American news media who frequently likes to sensationalize every such shooting, plastering news of them everywhere to make them more "high-profile" than they actually should be. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

If you are referring to mass shootings, they aren't actually very common even in the US -- they are very salient because of all the news coverage they receive. Canada has only 1/10 the population of the US so it would be expected to have only a tenth as many even if all factors were equal. If you are referring to individual shootings, in the US the majority are related to gang violence, a problem that is considerably less severe in most Canadian cities. Looie496 (talk) 03:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The average murder related to gang violence usually is barely mentioned in the national American news media. But once a mass shooting occurs, IMO and relatively speaking, the national media sort of acts like the "The sky is falling!" with all the coverage. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec)The U.S. has a relatively higher Gini coefficient than other countries, and the consequences of poverty are harsher. For example, access of the poor or even the middle class to serious health care generally comes at the cost of bankruptcy, and advanced procedures like transplants are notoriously kept unavailable. In those cases where welfare is still given, or in impoverished neighborhoods, conditions are such that prison ethics, complete with an intolerance for snitching and a low value on human life, hold general sway. To the poorest, prison seems so inevitable, and justice so unreliable, that it scarcely serves as a deterrent. National and international gangs and cartels are the adaptive response to the prevailing conditions, and prisons serve as their recruiting ground rather than suppressing them. Wnt (talk) 03:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

More poverty, a smaller social safety net, and more lax gun laws. Futurist110 (talk) 03:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a new one. The inavailability of kidney transplants causes gun crime! If you want to see the utter absurdity of leftist thought, look no further. Instead, try the war on drugs (theft to support habits and gang turf disputes) if you want a rational explanation for the vast majority of gun violence in the US. μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(You've yet again failed to place your comment following the one to which you are responding, and indent from it, so I've indented appropriately, in case you fix yours.) I agree that this is a tenuous link, but there was a movie made based on it: John Q. StuRat (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

For the OP, avoiding as much of the debate as I can, you might be interested in The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. I don't have it handy, so I don't know if he directly addresses the cause of the rate of gun violence in America, but he does deal with the cultural norms that affect violence, and the impact of history. There is also an important specific example covered that might have general relevance, that is, the evidence suggesting differences in the psychological makeup of Southerners and Northerners in their response to conflict. The distinction is based on an experiment that shows (or proves, or suggests) that Southerners are more responsive to antagonism, and Pinker claims this is linked to the frontier state that persisted for longer in the South. The implication seems to be (at least as a partial explanation, surely not the whole one), that the American colonies were driven by a frontier mentality that persists today and even has lingering psychological consequences. You can draw your own conclusions from this sort of evidence, because it's not my area, but you might find the book useful. I emphasise that this does not neutralise the evidence and explanations of others, and I'm sure you can get some other (possibly better) reading suggestions here too, IBE (talk) 12:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The children of Marie Juliette Louvet

Marie Juliette Louvet was the grandmother of Prince Rainier of Monaco. But she was not married to the reining Prince of Monaco. She had a husband, and bore him children. What became of her children by her husband? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 05:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

French Wikipedia has a little more on her husband, see fr:Achille Delmaet. It appears he was a photographer known for taking nude pictures, but otherwise I can't find much more. The French article fr:Marie-Juliette Louvet also has a little bit more on the children, such as birth and death dates, but does not go into details. --Jayron32 06:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Can a full blooded African American can be as light or lighter?

Can a full blooded African American can be as light or lighter? Marley84 (talk) 06:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Look at Michael Jackson, for instance. Futurist110 (talk) 06:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What does "full blooded" mean? We're all full-blooded Africans, but we have varying degrees of time since our most recent ancestors lived there. Also, comparisons require a second thing to compare to. As light or lighter than what? If you want to research the variations within black people, the article Black people has some information to get you started. --Jayron32 06:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Im guessing he means that those who are not of mixed heritage (as in some who had the european slave owners' blood in them, or other more recent interracial marriages' offspring).

I would venture a guess to say it is possible, depending on where in Africa they came from (and by that, dont have mixed heritage with europeans or others). Ethiopians for example are considerably more lighter skinned than west/central or even southern africans. (though it sees some in the far south are lighter than the west and centre.)Lihaas (talk) 08:22, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

"Full blooded African American" is really not too meaningful -- traditionally mixed-race people have generally been considered to be black under the old One-drop rule... AnonMoos (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

"About 30% of black Americans who take DNA tests to determine their African lineage prove to be descended from Europeans on their father's side, says Rick Kittles, scientific director of African Ancestry, a Washington, D.C., company that began offering the tests in 2003. Almost all black Americans whom Kittles has tested descended from African women, he says."[14]. Alansplodge (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to get it out of the way — there is also Albinism. It is also worth noting that there are numerous population groups in Africa. I presume you mean someone from sub-Saharan Africa, and not, say, North Africa. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You have to define the time of mixing arbitrarily. Don't forget Anthony and Cleopatra, Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. And of course the countless merchant crews trading gold and opium across the Mediterranean or along the ancient Suez Canal, or the many kingdoms which have moved from place to place along the Mediterranean shores in response to the demands of trade and the tides of war. People have been making booty calls over mid-sized seas for a very very long time. Of course, even aside from those such as the Egyptians and the Afar people whom one might say are mixed, there is also substantial variation among those within Africa - compare the images from Bushmen, who I assume have little introgression of European genes, to a notably dark-skinned group of Africans such as the Dinka people. Wnt (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Worthy of note is that culturally and by decent, Cleopatra was Greek. I'm not sure that any of her ancestors were natively Egyptian. See Ptolemaic dynasty for a history of her ancestors. Certainly, they adopted Egyptian culture and the trappings of the Pharaohs, but if we're going by the somewhat arbitrary rules that you are what your ancestors were, then she isn't any more "African" than Anthony was. --Jayron32 14:31, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Charles Thompson , a friend of Ernest Hemingway during his first East Africa safari ?

Hello learned humanitarians ! I saw in the german version of the article Green Hills of Africa (§ "Überblick") that Hemingway hunted with a friend named Charles Thompson. Who may he be ? (there is a lot of them in "disambiguation"...) . Thanks a lot beforehand, t.y. Arapaima (talk) 09:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the Charles Thompson in question has his own Wikipedia entry. Key_West#Ernest_Hemingway says he was a hardware store owner. 109.144.206.241 (talk) 10:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

[15] has a little more information 109.144.206.241 (talk) 10:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

What went wrong with Turkey?

I just read at Nature News that even 8000 to 9500 years ago, Turkey was apparently an innovator, producing the Indo-European languages. [16] Numerous animals were apparently domesticated there (even if nailing down the details is beyond my patience at the moment). My impression is that the prominence of Ancient Greece depended substantially on people from Turkey, under their control at the time, which then passed to Roman control with the same results, even becoming the core of the empire, before finally becoming part of the Muslim world, where they continued to remain preeminent, with technology far outstripping Europe, for example. And yet, somehow, the Ottoman Empire declined, advances in civil liberties were rebuffed, there was military and scientific stagnation, and they became the "sick man of Europe". Is there any systematic explanation for the change - a climate alteration, a change from land to sea shipping, some objective phenomenon that can explain why a country goes from perpetual preeminence to obscurity? Or is it all just random fluctuation? Wnt (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe it has to do with the dominance of religion over science. Similarly, when Christianity dominated over science in Europe in the Middle Ages, there was stagnation there, as well. StuRat (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I can sort of see this argument, but I'm not sure how much of this is fact and how much fiction. Islam did not prevent Jabir ibn Hayyan from becoming the first alchemist, indeed, inventing much of chemistry including ironically enough the distillation of alcohol. Avicenna was free to use wine for various medicinal purposes two centuries later. True, these were Persians, living in Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates ruled from Syria and Iraq, but I'll partially ignore that as much of the political territory was shared and it's not that much of a distance. Can you say for sure that religious fanaticism became more pronounced in the past few centuries? Wnt (talk) 13:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

StuRat's answer is, unfortunately, one that is completely ignorant of actual history. Islam was the preeminent language of learning during the so-called Middle Ages. Religion was not the reason that Europe lacked "science" during the Middle Ages (the Church was more or less the only benefactor of higher education and learning in Europe during that time and poured huge resources into astronomical research). StuRat is speaking about bad clichés and nothing more. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you really want to say " Islam was the preeminent language of learning " not "Arabic was..." or "Islam was the ... vehicle of learning"? OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

If you disagree with somebody, prove them wrong, don't just call them ignorant, without proof. That just makes you look bad. And spending money on research is great, unless you constrain your researchers to keep any discoveries which run counter to your doctrine secret (like heliocentrism). StuRat (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand my argument. Neither Christianity or Islam is inherently anti-science. However, at times, both developed an anti-science attitude. These are the times when those cultures stagnated. Now, as to why those religions had such attitudes at times and not others, that's more complicated. Having a single religious leader (like the Pope) who dominated all secular leaders was a factor in Europe. After the Reformation, the power of the Pope was reduced, allowing for more freedom for those with ideas that ran counter to The Church, including scientists, especially in Northern Europe. StuRat (talk) 14:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a good explanation for an elemenary school class maybe, but fortunately not really at all how things actually worked. See, I don't know, science in the Middle Ages for one thing. (I don't know what else to say because I know I've corrected you on this point numerous times in the past, and I'm sure many others have too, but if you don't care, then all we can ask is for you to stop repeating it...) Adam Bishop (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to back Adam Bishop on this regarding Christianity and Science in the Middle Ages. The general regression Europe experienced (in many areas, not just learning) had to do with environmental factors mostly unrelated to religion, and likely a lot more to do with demographic factors. Foremost was the de-urbanization that occured: the number and density of cities declined dramatically after the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, and cities are known to be the home of innovation. This article in Scientific American magazine contains a good overview, but there's been a lot of studies, especially recently, on this topic, and there is a direct correlation between urban life and technological and cultural advancement. It would follow, then, that if people are abandoning the cities, technology and learning are going to take a hit. Furthermore, Europe in the middle ages experienced a sharp and shocking decline in population, especially those areas which had formerly been part of the Western Roman Empire, owing to widespread famine, and the Black Death. Certainly, advancements were made and Europe did advance in some areas during the time period, but that was largely in spite of the environment that people were living in, which given the historical context one would easily predict a few steps backwards. Of final note, the Catholic Church was, in many ways, the major force for what knowledge was preserved, since often the only literate people were the clergy, and they spent a lot of time copying ancient texts (not just the Bible, but also secular and pre-christian works) and many of the major scientific minds of the age were Christian clergy, including Roger Bacon and Robert Grosseteste and William of Ockham, all of whom had a profound influence on the development of modern science. --Jayron32 15:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Some points:

1) What caused people to move out of cities ?

2) Europe was in decline long before the Black Death, so it's population decline was not the driving factor.

3) Of course many of the scientists at the time were religious people, since there was very little opportunity for anyone not involved in The Church to pursue such studies, and they would risk running afoul of religious doctrine. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't write my response to you (StuRat), really — I wrote it for anybody out there uninformed enough not to realize that you were just being ignorant. I know better than to give you actual book references, and am highly dubious that you will bother to actually learn anything new that goes against your pre-held beliefs, but hey, go ahead and prove me wrong! Start out with Islam_and_science#History and see where you get. Maybe check out the Islamic Golden Age. There's a lot you appear to know nothing about, so it's unclear to me exactly where to start. Try looking at Catholic Church and science, focusing on the middle ages. (Of course, real historians don't even like to use the category Middle Ages, but let's set that aside for now.) There are lots of variables involved in the relationship between Islam and science, but any potential issues relating to Islam and science — which frankly are unlikely to apply to Turkey anyway, which you may or may not know is one of the most "progressive" Islamic republics in the Middle East — are extremely recent. But anyway, there are some nice references. Feel free to back up your own knee-jerk opinions with a few while you're at it. You may have areas of expertise, StuRat, but you have shown again and again on here that the study of history is not one of them. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You apparently are too ignorant to know about the Galileo affair. Note that for every scientist who was put on trial by The Church for opposing their doctrine, many more were either warned quietly and backed off, or choose never to say anything publicly which The Church might find offensive. So, the cases that actually came down to a trial are but the tip of the iceberg. StuRat (talk) 18:57, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not "random fluctuation" but it's not necessarily some external factor that causes it. Take a look at the Ottoman Empire page. There's a lot going on in the world between 1299 and 1922. The Ottomans fell behind in several key areas: exploration, resource exploitation, industrialization, war-making, and empire consolidation (which is hard no matter how prosperous you are, especially at a time when ethnic nationalism was on the rise). I don't think there's any one, single, external factor that accounts for it, unless you want to count "the rise of Europe" as an external factor. (What accounts for the rise of Europe? A lot of things. Unimpeded access to the resources of the New World didn't hurt, though.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) One thing to realize is that the Turkic peoples originally lived in Central Asia, and only migrated to Turkey around the 11th century AD. They have nothing to do with the ancient Anatolians, who lived there originally. Furthermore, the emergence of a language is not a sign of civilization. Some very 'primitive' tribes have amazingly complex languages. We don't have any preserved writing from these early periods (before c. 3000 BC); the Nature article is based on computer models, not archaeology. That's not to say that the ancient Anatolians were not a 'great people', they're just completely unrelated to modern Turkey. Regarding the Ottoman Empire, see Mr.98's comments above. - Lindert (talk) 14:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x4 Um, there's a big problem with the OPs question and some of the answers given. The patch of dirt currently occupied by the Turkish people was not occupied by the Turkish people 8000 years ago, or even 2000 years ago. Or even their ancestors. The ancestors of the modern Turkish people are not Indo-European people, so the fact that the people who spoke the Proto-Indo-European language may have come from there has no connection to the modern nation of Turkey. Turks come from a very different part of Asia, and migrated into the current place we call Turkey during the middle ages, long after PIE, see Turkish_people#Origins. So, if we are trying to figure out what is different between the Turkish people today and the people who lived in what we now call Turkey some 8000 years ago, it helps to note that those people aren't the ancestors of modern Turks. Secondly, the predominant explantion for the origin of PIE is that it originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, basically what is now the extreme southeastern corner of Europe where it meets the (somewhat arbitrary boundary) with Asia. The origins of the language in what is now Turkey is but one explanation, and does not appear to be the one held by the majority of scholars, and even if it were true, the people who live there now are not the decendants of those who lived there 8000 years ago. The article History of Anatolia has some good information on the various peoples who have called that place home. Thirdly, speaking a language that later evolves into other languages isn't really an innovation: that would imply that there was something about PIE that made it better than other languages at the time and that innovation lead to it being spread or something like that. What causes a language to spread has a lot more to do with politics and factors unrelated to the quality of the language itself. --Jayron32 14:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Jayron32 -- there was not anything approaching a complete population replacement in Anatolia after the Battle of Manzikert (1071). A number of the pre-1071 inhabitants of Anatolia were heretics or quasi-Manicheans who were not too attached to Orthodox Christianity as officially defined at Constantinople in the first place. Also, the classic Islamic missionary "Sufi bait-and-switch" was employed -- the first wave of Islamic missionaries that most ordinary people in villages would have encountered would have been itinerant Sufis, who would have promulgated a form of Islam as a joyful religion which imposed very light demands; all the Shariah legalism etc. didn't come along until a later phase... As for the Pontic-Caspian steppe, see the Kurgan Hypothesis comments below... AnonMoos (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Well the Ottoman Empire isn't Turkey. This question makes it sound like you're asking what went wrong with Turkey today, rather than the Ottoman Empire. As for the latter, a number of reasons. Firstly, size. It was too large to be able to administer for centuries. Eventually, you got lazy kings and ineffective bureaucracies. This led to outside parts of the empire becoming their own independent territory, such as in the Balkans, or falling to another empire, such as the Safavids. Shifts in government also destablizied the kingdom, as well as new war technology in the hands of other countries. Hope it helps. --Activism1234 14:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

No, the Ottoman Empire was Turkey. Contemporary documents frequently called it "Turkey", both internally and externally, and the modern nation of Turkey is a direct successor state to what was the Ottoman Empire. Certainly, it controlled lots of non-Turkish lands, because that is what Empires do, but as the hegemony within the Empire was Turkey, it is common and correct to think of it as the Turkish Empire. In the same way that the Austian Empire is a predecessor state to the modern country of Austia, or that the Holy Roman Empire is a predecessor state to Germany, or that the Soviet Union is a predecessor state to modern Russia, it is fine to think of the Ottoman Empire as a predecessor state to modern Turkey. The Sultans were Turks, the language of government was Turkish. It was Turkey with a bunch of dominated territories tacked on as the "empire" part. Yes, they are not identical, any more than Russia is identical to the Soviet Union, but neither are they entirely unrelated states, as though the modern nation of Turkey winked into existance in 1923 with no connection to the former Ottoman Turkish Empire. --Jayron32 14:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

---

Wnt -- regarding one of the premises of your question, it's been noticeable for a while now that very few actual linguists support the Anatolian hypothesis, and I really don't see that dramatically changing anytime in the near future, despite the latest study reported in the news (a study which was not conducted by linguists, you'll note). Linguists are much more likely to be convinced by the Kurgan hypothesis (or slight modifications and elaborations of the Kurgan hypothesis). As for Turkish backwardness, such backwardness did not begin to be conspicuously visible to either Europeans or to the Ottomans themselves until after the events of 1683 (the failed Siege of Vienna) -- before 1683, the Ottomans won more than they lost. Some historians would say that the Ottomans didn't decline much at all in absolute terms, but they failed to keep pace with European developments, and so declined in relative terms. Many people in Muslim lands were somewhat contemptuous of "infidels", and didn't think there was much to be learned from non-Muslims. One warning sign was that while Europe was enthusiastically adopting the invention of printing with movable metal type, before the 18th century such printing was allowed in the Ottoman empire only if it was in a script other than Arabic, and intended for a non-Muslim readership... AnonMoos (talk) 16:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow - I never expected to get so many intriguingly detailed answers. Of them, the strangest is the notion that the modern-day Turkish people are of a different race (and culture?) than those living there pre-1100. There's a lot of history in these articles, so could someone do me a favor and explain how on Earth that happened? But the universal censorship described in this last one best fits my ideological preconceptions of what it would take to destroy a nation so thoroughly - can you elaborate? Wnt (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

There's a business in New York that's closed on weekends.

In front is a stoop, well, a couple of steps, with the chalked message "No sitting." Can I sit there? 66.108.223.179 (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't care. Wait until the business is open, then ask the owners what they think. --Jayron32 15:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a request for legal advice, which we can't provide. For general background you might see loitering or perhaps trespassing. Wnt (talk) 18:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you? Probably. May you? Probably not. Should you? No. 2001:18E8:2:1020:C2:8653:9179:E109 (talk) 18:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

where could I email

where could I email the administrators of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org please? Thanks. --80.99.254.208 (talk) 17:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably at admin {at} mozilla.org. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

What academic field studies volunteerism?

Are there any academic fields that study volunteerism? I know political science has a lot of insights on civic engagement and sociology has some on social groups, but does any field scientifically investigate things like outcomes of volunteers, reasons people volunteer, etc in a social scientific manner like causation studies? I'm sorry I cannot be more specific here.--108.23.47.101 (talk) 18:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You are right on track. Each social science is probably studying it from a different perspective: economical, sociological, psychological, and so on. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... maybe are there any interdisciplinary groupings out there then?--108.23.47.101 (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

0-bedroom housing units

I just ran across a U.S. government document from the 1970s in which HUD defined fair rents for each county in the country for different types of housing units. Each county had an entry for housing units of 0 bedrooms, 1 bedroom, 2 bedrooms, 3 bedrooms, and 4 bedrooms, with separate lines for with-elevator and without-elevator. What kind of housing unit would be defined as having 0 bedrooms? Is this just some bureaucratic designation for what everyone else would call a 1-bedroom unit? Or did HUD care about places that really weren't housing at all? 2001:18E8:2:1020:C2:8653:9179:E109 (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Part of the reason I'm confused is the idea of a 0-bedroom unit with an elevator, which would make more sense when we're talking about things that really aren't housing at all. 2001:18E8:2:1020:C2:8653:9179:E109 (talk) 18:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)