Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. You are not autoconfirmed, meaning you cannot currently edit this page. Instead, use /Non-autoconfirmed posts. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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User: Hopiakuta

Can anyone make any sense out of this user's page or talk page, signature, or the user's edits? Hopiakuta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) I think the original block was probably not so far off base - this seems like a lot of gibberish to me. Tvoz |talk 08:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the user's signature - everything within and including the outside brackets:

[[ user : hopiakuta |[[ hopiakuta ]] Please do [[ sign ]] your [[ signature ]] on your [[ message]]. [[ %7e%7e ]] [[ %7e%7e | Thank You. ]]-]]

which comes out like this, including the brackets: [[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]]

Tvoz |talk 08:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I went to his talk page, and couldn't make heads or tails of it. Does anyone think he/she is copying a message someone left for them at one time? And what's with that warning at the top of the page? R. Baley 08:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

He seems to contradict his own rule about clear signatures.. — Moe ε 08:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Careful Moe, that little greek character there might be considered vandalism. Someguy1221 08:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Not just vandalism, but SPAM VANDALISM Better add "ε" to the list of bad words.. — Moe ε 08:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) I looked back through his/her contribution history (which is a little scary) and he looks to have tried to get help with his sig back in November 2006. I'm sure there are other issues at play here, but is it possible that he changed his sig at some point and just never got it right (looks like his name didn't have traditional characters in it early on). I'm not sure she/he knows enough English to be helped. Btw, she added back the quotes to the Obama page, but it's still unclear what she wants. . .R. Baley 09:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this person is trying to recreate WP:BJAODN? Both user & talk pages are truly ... odd. -- llywrch 21:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

From the talk page: "Please do respect my disability access need." Actually I think this user might be blind and is using some screen reading software. That would partly explain the copying of system- and error messages into the edit window. — Edokter • Talk • 23:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I got that impression when I encountered him some time ago - is there any kind of support group here for that sort of thing that he could be put in contact with? --Random832 00:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

That would also explain the concern with others signing their comments. For the sighted, it is a simple thing to click on the history tab and see who made the edit. On the other hand, if you have to have it read to you, what an ordeal that must be. -- But|seriously|folks  01:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm blind and use a screen reader - using Wikipedia effectively with a screen reader can be very difficult if one does not understand much about the technology. The closest thing to a support group for users like that is probably wikipedia talk:accessibility but I suspect English is not this user's native language. I've left a message at the talk page anyway and I'll see what I can do to help. Graham87 02:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well this is the response. Make of it what you will. Graham87 12:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

In trying to make sense of it, I managed to track down the "extremely racist, extremely handicappist, policy page, about vandalism." - he objected to the inclusion of this image to illustrate the concept of "doppleganger" [which apparently meant, at the time, closer to "sock puppet" than to what we now use the term for] - He considered it racist because the subjects are black (though, no comment on whether he would think the same if a picture where the subjects were white had been used instead), and handicappist because either he considers being a twin to be a disability, or because of the (by no means obvious from the picture itself) fact that one of the subjects suffers from Aplastic anemia (though it seems the motivation was not in fact racism, but simply because it was an available picture of twins, the use of a picture of living people to illustrate it was certainly in bad taste) - he had some difficulty communicating this objection, leading to accusations of vandalism etc which understandably left him with negative feelings about the wikipedia community --Random832 14:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I've taken a somewhat detailed look at his contribs, and it looks like apart from incoherent talk page comments, it's mostly redirects from dubious misspellings. --Random832 16:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

With no disrespect to the user, it looks like neuro damage to me, like someone that's been in a really bad car accident at some point. Someone I knew at school went like this, one quirk which is similar to this person is repetition of similar or inverted forms, eg the "complex" bit in the diff. I could probably find emails from that person on one of my old hard drives to compare. Mostly they are still high-functioning but the bits related to communication, both inbound and outbound, are impaired. Orderinchaos 06:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

DonFphrnqTaub Persina (apparently Hopiakuta's real name) is a founding member of a disability living centre in California. He probably has a cognitive disability of some sort, which would explain his incoherent talk page comments and copying of error messages. I don't think we should prevent such users from editing Wikipedia, it's obvious Hopiakuta is acting in good faith. —Crazytales talk/desk 16:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been following Hopiakuta in curiosity for some time, and came to the same conclusion about the nature of his disability. I'm honestly not sure what the right thing is to do about it. I agree that he's acting in good faith, but his work is disruptive nonetheless. I would like to do something to help him but I'm not sure what the best way to reach him is. It's a puzzler. Tim Pierce 17:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

---

It has now become known that the user is unable to access this noticeboard (due to its length and his technical problems). We should continue this discussion on his talk page instead. --Random832 18:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive editing of David Hicks by User:Prester John

User:Prester John is engaging in disruptive editing by massive non-consensual reverts of David Hicks page. Numerous editors have reverted his changes (up to 3 a day without substantive justification or talkpage discussion, using Edit Summaries that mispresent the edit and/or prior editors[1][2][3] and are aggressively POV [4]):

• [5] Mdhowe - "revert vandalism" by Prester John
• [6] Bless sins - Undid revision 157511776 by Prester John
• [7] Bless sins - "rv, mass removal of content; the article seems fine as it is"
• [8] Brendan.lloyd - "Prester John, please refrain from DELETING references, use more detailed Edit Summaries & justify your reverts on the talkpage; please avoid 3RR"

Mastcell had protected the Hicks page earlier, stating a lower threshold for blocking would exist if edit-warring resumes. Less than thirty minutes after protection was lifted, Prester John resumed edit warring. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 08:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Blocks

I have blocked both Brendan.lloyd and Prester John for disruption of David Hicks. Both users have reverted very recently after the protection, and both know better then this. We all know at least some moderate English, and we should be mature enough to discuss matters on the talk pages. When both of your blocks expire I hope you two can resolve this dispute. There are options such as mediation. Please do not resort to silly reverting again, but instead discuss the changes, your change is not likely to stick unless you get others to agree anyway. Anyone else editing this article should keep this in mind, being disruptive is being blockable. There are better ways to resolve your editorial disputes. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 05:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

After an unblock request I reviewd the BL block IMHO appeared unnecessary as he had only edited the article twice in the last two days, so I have unblocked him. Gnangarra 05:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Gnangarra has re-instated the two blocks. (Gnangarra unblocked Prester John as well). —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I support the block of both parties. I reviewed this report myself last night and thought both parties should be blocked given the gaming and the very clear warning they were given not to resume edit warring once the protection expired, but I didn't respond to the report myself because of my own recent disputes with both of them, but particularly Brendan Lloyd. Brendan and Prester are very disruptive, POV edit warriors and aside from the dispute at David Hicks, they have been revert warring on multiple articles for many weeks. Both parties have had plenty of warnings and they know this behaviour is not on, to give another warning would be meaningless. Brendan says in his complaint above that, "a lower threshold for blocking would exist if edit-warring resumes", so there's no excuse for then going off and doing just that, even if it was "only twice". Sarah 08:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any sense of proportion or reasonableness about the conduct and outcome of this decision. Mostly, though, I'm disappointed that my editorial character is being misrepresented (eg. equated with the arguably far worse actions of Prester John, and with some commenters making non-neutral emphatically negative generalisations about my edit activity that do not fit with an objective reading of my overall Wikipedia history).

The warning by MastCell did not state 1RR. It simply said that a "lower threshold" would be taken for repeat occurrences of edit warring. No clear parameters were established for how "low" that threshold was intended to be, nor for how long it was to endure, nor the circumstances within which it clearly should be invoked versus not, nor was any distinction made that any edit/revert whatsoever (without regard to its argued validity/substance) would constitute edit warring. Taken to its logical conclusion, the view that I should not have made a single revert on the Hicks page (even of something that was plainly POV and tautologist) would mean that I can't revert anything on the Hicks page ever again, for fear of being misconstrued as edit-warring. Anyone editor placed in that situation would find that unreasonable.

Moreover, the only person who has engaged in significant repeat occurrences, in clear breach of any reasonable threshold, is Prester John. The David Hicks edit history and the lack of commentary by PJ on the talkpage are evidence of this. If I had done something genuinely objectionable, why were there no other Hicks page editors complaining about my changes? Another admin said I didn't say much on the talkpage about my edits, but I didn't think I needed to. No other editor (apart from Prester John) objected to them. That strongly suggests my changes were consensus-sustaining.

A more rational and impartial process would be to look at the substance of my two isolated reverts (some 5 days apart!), read the Edit Summaries accompanying, see if there were any other editors who objected to them (there weren't), and then make a well informed judgement whether my block on the basis of 1RR was justified and reasonable. I maintain it was not --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 08:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic war brewing, and abuse of WP:MINOR

Ethnic edit war brewing after disruptive edits by User:Figaro at article Graeme Garden:

• For nationality, he replaces United Kingdom (sovereign nation, U.N. member, passport) with Scotland (neither of them) every day [9][10]. To me that's not content dispute, but unencyclopedic.
• Conceals all his changes under abuse of WP:MINOR tag.

Since those ethnic conflicts degenerate so quick, an external opinion is wished from someone who can enforces Wikipedia's rules about encyclopedic (i.e. sovereign nations, not provinces or sub-states). — Komusou ^talk @ 18:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

My view is that it is acceptable to use Scottish as a nationality; I also feel that that is preferable. Therefore it's more of a content dispute than unencyclopedic, IMO. I don't feel the abuse of the minor edit checkbox is deliberate, perhaps just contact him saying 1) instead of waring, it could be taken to the talk page, and 2) since the content is disputed, it is no longer apropriate to use the minor edit checkbox when changing it, with a guiding link to WP:MINOR would be more apropriate. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: My opinion is that the above commentator should have either self-disclosed that he is from Scotland and a member of Wikiproject Scotland (cf. his user page), or abstained from a conflict of interest. And as far as I remember Wikipedia doesn't recognize or endorse non-sovereign nations, an encyclopedia is descriptive. Is there a new policy that says we now should use "Scot" or "Quebécois" or "Flemish" or "Texan" or "Basque" or "Breton" as nationalities? I would like to see the references or archive of the debate that legifered that. — Komusou ^talk @ 19:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Point of order: Possible POV pushing should not be labeled COI. Please don't use COI allegations to intimidate another editor. Thanks. - Jehochman ^Talk 16:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please clarify:

* WP:COI defines it as contributing "in order to promote [...] the interests of other individuals, companies, or groups" -- Scots are an ethnic group, and this user has identified as a Scot on his user page.

* WP:COI also defines it as "[editing] articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in that area", and he's a member of WikiProject Scotland.

So IMO both are conflict of interest, yet he didn't self-disclose it. Especially since he's advocating something that's never done in any dictionary or encyclopedia I've ever seen, that is replacing "British" with "Scottish" for the nationality field. How am I trying "to intimidate another editor" when I'm adding this information he concealed? And how come he gets a free pass on not disclosing this in the first place? — Komusou ^talk @ 13:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with using Scotland as country of birth, etc., but the nationality of anyone born in the UK is British, and should be stated as such. ELIMINATORJR 19:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the situation. I think most people would describe Sean Connery as Scottish (and he self-identifies as such as well), for example, so that's why we have him described as such in the lead. Badagnani 19:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think the fact that I am a member of the project makes any difference when I have disclsed the more important point, that I am biased because I belive that it should state he is Scottish (as apposed to the fact that my nationality/project affinity merely suggests this to be the case). Anyway, the fact that we have disagreement between us still points to a content dispute. My stance remains that this is mainly an unfortunate misunderstanding of good-faith edits, and that it can be sorted out on the talk page of the article in question. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Sean Connery would give his nationality as Scottish, I'm sure. I don't believe Graeme Garden does. He is not prominently identified with nationalist causes, and is not strongly identified with Scottishness. I'd wager that a decent proportion of his fan base are not really aware he's a Scot, since his accent is not at all strong. Apart from the Hamish and Dougal bit, of course, but then Barry Cryer is from Yorkshire... Guy (Help!) 19:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Important additional note: I forgot to mention that in that sort of cases, I'm always careful to have both the infobox say "Nationality: British (Scottish)" and the lead section say "John Doe is a British something from Scotland", thus there is both the encyclopedic sovereign nation, and the accurate sub-nation. But this is never enough for ethnic warriors, that simply delete all instances of "British" or "UK", such as the case above -- to me this is unencyclopedic and not a content dispute. And it seems to be the same everywhere. Our article about Charlie Chaplin is a laughingstock because "British" and "United Kingdom" are systematically erased from it. Surely we have a policy about that in 2007? — Komusou ^talk @ 19:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion of this at Talk:Graeme Garden. Scotland says it is a nation and a constituent country of the United Kingdom. RJFJR 19:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Scotland isn't a sovereign nation. Readers of an encyclopedia expect "Nationality" to give them the sovereign nation, the U.N. member, the passport -- which is UK/British. There is no Scotland at the U.N., and no Scot passport. This is unencyclopedic, and playing on words, the UK's internal affairs and diplomatic choice of words isn't Wikipedia's concern. And the original "Nationality: British (Scottish)" had it covered anyway for full information, so the reader is even free to decide. Doing otherwise would be as unencyclopedic as writing "Nationality: Texan". Not all readers are from the UK or the U.S.
• There is nothing on the talk page because the incriminated user first changed it without edit summary and concealed as a minor edit [11], then after I changed it back with full rationales he simply reverted again as minor edit without any counter-rationale[12], thus displaying contempt for the point made and showing that he's not in for discussion but for ethnic warring. For centuries people have been ready to die for a piece of fabric, today they're ready to be banned for a word on Wikipedia, nihil nove sub sole.
• And sorry for asking another, but I would really like to know what are our policies or guidelines or arbitration cases about this topic? When I posted this, I only expected an admin to brandish a WP:SOMETHING that would lay down the law on the matter -- not a POV discussion about whether someone's fans would considerer him this or that. Is this an encyclopedia or a fanzine?

— Komusou ^talk @ 20:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• We should go with their self-description. Guy (Help!) 20:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course Scotland is a nation (especially as far as international sports bodies are concerned) and a historical kingdom - the United Kingdom originally being those of England and Scotland. Also, there are sufficient cultural, legal and educational differences to establish separate identities. However, forget individuals and consider (for instance) cities. Are Coventry and Brechin simply cities in the United Kingdom, or are they areas of England and Scotland (and more to the point, does Scotland help fix the area in the readers mind)? LessHeard vanU 21:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems fairly straightforward to me as there is clearly a British identify, all be it there are Scottish and Welsh etc. subcultural identies. But many Scottish/Irish/Welsh/English people identify primarily as British - in fact most probably do, and culture is largely shared.WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 21:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Scotland maintains a distinct national identity. That it's part of a bigger thing doesn't negate that it's a nation. It's article says it's a nation. It calls itself a nation, and maintains a national archives distinct from that of the UK archives and distinct of English Archives. Demanding such changes would mean a massive overhaul of all Irish, Welsh and Scottish articles about people living in the last 300 years, and woud eliminate a lot of clear information by obscuring it behind the broad term 'United Kingdom'. The history of scotland is clear at its' article, and the ssame goes for UK. Readers want to know Connery's Scottish, not 'A citizen of the United Kingdom, being born in the subservient nation-state of Scotland' "Sean Connery is a scottish actor'. bam, done. Be CLEAR. Wikipedia is not censored for political correctness like that. Observing self-description in the text, and the British(Scottish) in the infobox is enough. ThuranX 21:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

True, but not truly relevant. British (Scottish) is OK, if a bit weaselly, but I've never heard Garden identify himself as Scottish and the only time I met him his accent was barely discernible. (aside: TBT is much shorter than he looks on the radio). Guy (Help!) 23:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I am unimpressed that I have been specifically named here as causing an 'Ethnic war abuse incident' because I commented that Graeme Garden was born in Scotland (he was, after all, born in Scotland!).

Scotland is still a country within its own right (Mary, Queen of Scots' son, James I of England was also James VI of Scotland). It was when James VI of Scotland also became James I of England that England and Scotland were united under a single monarchy (i.e. under the one crown). The other three countries which make up the United Kingdom are England, Wales and Northern Ireland).

To be honest, I can't really see what the problem is. After all, Ronnie Corbett and Billy Connolly both have their country listed as Scotland. In the same way, Terry Jones and Griff Rhys Jones have their country listed in their infoboxes as Wales — while Eric Idle, Michael Palin, Tim Brooke-Taylor and Bill Oddie all have their country listed in their infoboxes as England. Figaro 07:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Many people's primary identification is with the UK, not with a constituent nation. You are wrong to presume that someone who was born in Scotland is Scottish. Billy Connolly is known as a Scottish comedian, Ronnie Corbett is not, nor is Graeme Garden. Putting people into an ethnic box is POV. Many editors could tell you this - I was born in England but I'm not English (but I am British). I know of others who were born in England but are strongly Welsh. Unless you know how people self-identify you cannot say. Secretlondon 07:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Well said - there are real issues over how to treat nationality in articles, but Wikipedia is riddled with "ethnic labelling" of very divisive kinds. It attracts race-haters and gives them far more of a platform than they have outside of the encyclopedia. We should not be providing any such platform, even in those cases where we think we're reflecting genuine differences. This is a problem that will get worse as en-WP attracts more and more members of minorities - some of their grievances will undoubtedly be genuine - but others will simply be malicious. Articles don't need it - objecting to "Lough Neagh is the biggest lake in the British Isles" is idiotic. Pandering to it in the encyclopedia encourages bitterness and violence. (On this last example I've had another look - consensus in Talk is for use of "British Isles" but nobody is prepared to confront the angry and stop them damaging articles). PalestineRemembered 08:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to the following comment by Figaro, "I commented that Graeme Garden was born in Scotland (he was, after all, born in Scotland!)." well, when someone accused Arthur Wellesley, the 1st Duke of Wellington of being Irish because he was born in Ireland, he famously replied "Jesus was born in a stable, but it doesn't mean he was a horse!" Where someone is born does not identify their nationality. Scotland does definitely have a national identity within the UK, but many English people identify with Scottish national/cultural symbols like tartans, kilts and bagpipes etc, without themselves actually being Scottish, and vice versa many Scottish people identify with English cultural symbols. Its like calling George Bush a Connecticutur rather than an American. While its true he is both, the latter is more appropriate for an encyclopedic article. While Scotland is a nation, it is not a sovereign nation, there is a significant difference. Bottom line is someone born in the UK is British. Consider as well that many people born in Scotland/Ireland/Wales and England will at one time or another live part of their life in another constituent country of the UK, so what sub-nationality one identifies with is really down to their own personal choice. You could argue its not their choice and its determined by the location of their birth, but i'm sure General Wellington would have disagreed, ;) WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 09:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

How the country of birth should be represented in an infobox should have been taken to the Wikipedia:Village pump for discussion there in a civilized manner, instead of being taken to this incidents section of the noticeboard on this page.

Also, it is supposed to be against Wikipedia policy to make personal attacks on another editor. Komusou has personally attacked me by his public discussion of me in both this forum and in his edit summary of his reversal of my edit on Graeme Garden's article.

Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a venue for nitpicking and slurs. Figaro 11:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encylopedia, surely it is therefore a venue for nitpicking? Its being discussed here as this is where it has arisen for various reasons, there is no need to take it to the village pump because its really quite an open and shut case. Scotland is not a sovereign nation. While it may have its own national identity saying someone is scottish is ethnic not national. Scots are a race like aryans or kurds are a race. Likwise the english are a race, does living in england make someone english? of course not. Likewise for scotland. The nationality of the english, welsh, scots and n.irish is British, as it is for any other UK citizen. By all means add to the article he was born in scotland but its not his nationality. His nationality is british like every UK citizen.WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 16:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attacks. I see some contentious editong during a content dispute, and an editor who brought the issue up for wider discussion, but at the wrong place. Not everything you don't like on here is a PA. ThuranX 17:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think this has been brought up in the right place. The user who brought it to our attention skipped the usual process of actually getting an edit war underway by bringing the matter up before it got that far, but it would have ended up as an edit war without some kind of intervention (and consequently would have ended up here) eventually, one way or another. WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 18:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I regret to tell you that the earlier quotation from Wellington ("born in a stable doesn't make me a horse") is a favorite of race-haters - and appears to be false. It underlines what I commented earlier - race-hatred is a real problem, and Wikipedia will incite still more of it, unless we are ruthless about keeping it out. We'd never accept "The Jews are viewed with suspicion by XXXXX because of accusations of XXXXX" except in an article that makes clear how very nasty this stuff is. We should similarly steer well clear of allowing accusatory/discriminatory statements about other "groups" to appear. In fact, we should avoid labeling anyone as belonging a group. Or not belonging to a group, as we do when we allow the race-haters to imply that being Scottish is an alternative to being British. In this example, the "problem" is tiny - but it's still important to deny these race-haters a platform. And the principle of not labeling people (unless it is really, really necessary) holds good always. (Sorry if the above really belongs at some policy-discussing page, but reminding people is necessary at pages like this as well). PalestineRemembered 09:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Various comments and answers:

• First, I need to apologize for how this turned into a long debate: as explained above, I honestly believed that in 2007 we had a WP:SOMETHING policy or guideline or arbitration precedent about such a simple encyclopedic topic as nationality fields, and I thus believed that WP:ANI was a good place for asking quick enforcement of such a policy. So it looks like we have no actual policy or guideline after all... I'll try to propose one in RFC or Pump/Policy, Wikipedia is becoming a total mess and a laughingstock with respect to nationalities, apparently everybody is too scared of ethnic terrorists to move, but we need something on that topic. It's not just the British thing, have a look from the Categories to articles about Canadian people (lots of "Canadian" deleted in favor of just "Quebec" or "Quebecois"), or Belgian people (most of them have erased "Belgian" and replaced it with "Flemish" or "Walloon", the two subnations that hate each other). I haven't even looked into Basque, Breton, Corsican, and the like...
• To ThuranX: I think that having a lead section say that "Sean Connery is a British actor from Scotland" is hardly the pejorative apocalypse you're writing about; the "clear information" you ask is precisely both terms, not a single one; the objective facts of British passport, U.N. representation, or UK embassies aren't addressed; and if you invoke Readers, the NPOV is to give them both "British" and "Scotland" and let them decide which piece or pieces of information is useful to them, since both are true.
• To JzG/Guy: about "British (Scottish) is OK, if a bit weaselly", I believe that no peace will come if we just try to impose the sovereign citizenship only, and also that it's often accurate and useful to mention subnationalities or local ethnies that have their own identity or a history of separatism. As long as it's sourced, I wouldn't be bothered by some infoboxes telling "British (Scottish)", "Canadian (Quebec)", "Belgian (Flemish)", or even "Spanish (Basque)". We just need to keep it to actual territories and forbid racial/ancestry things such as "German (Turkish)" or "French (Jewish)".
• To Figaro: you can't rewrite the article's edit history, you didn't "commented that Graeme Garden was born in Scotland", you deleted thrice the word British in "Nationality: British (Scottish)". And the fact that most Wikipedia articles are currently owned by ethnic warriors (such as our international laughingstock "Charlie Chaplin is an English actor" where they delete the word "British" on sight everytime it's inserted) doesn't make it right nor a point; for instance, if all our articles about Muslim subjects were dated using the Muslim calendar, that still wouldn't make it right or encyclopedic, just massively needed to be changed (and how far is it before such madness happens, if we let it slip?). It just means we need a policy so as to be able to clean the nationality fields of those unencyclopedic articles, and ban the ethnic warriors who'd revert again. Also, the difference between "Nationality: British" and "Nationality: Scottish" isn't what you call "nitpicking". No dictionary or encyclopedia use your "Nationality: Scottish"; this point, too, is never addressed.
• For the record, the edit war has continued after this discussion: Figaro reverted again so as to delete "British" (and also delete the infobox and replace it with a made-up table)[13] – so I have restored the article[14], then tried compromise #1 by adding the additional info he wanted but this time inside the regular infobox[15], then compromise #2 by removing the Flagicon from the infobox's "Nationality: British (Scottish)"[16] (assuming that the UK flag was a needless additional divisiveness with an ethnic warrior). I am however afraid that such compromises may be seen as weaknesses, as warriors are wont to do, so maybe it'll get worse...

— Komusou ^talk @ 13:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm 100% behind your view on this Komusou, I feel that the nationality is clearly British - certianly not scottish, I wouldn't even mention scottish in brackets myself but if it keeps people happy its an acceptable compromise I think. The problem is the scottish are (like the english, welsh and irish) an ethnic group not essentially a nationality. So its like saying Barrack Obama is American (African) and George W Bush is American (Northern European). Its true sort of, but not really appropriate for nationality, as being black/white doesn't affect their nationality. Saying British (Scottish) almost implies there is a multi-layered system within the UK where not all british people are the same, wbich isn't the case. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Indian or Klingon, it doesn't matter, - if you have a UK passport your British end of! WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 19:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

WP, your describing Scottish, Welsh or Irish as "an ethnic group and not a nationality" is both insulting and wrong. Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland are countries, making up one sovereign kingdom. Ireland is not even in the UK, which shows how poorly informed you are (the Republic of Ireland is a sovereign nation). It is entirely acceptable to describe nationality as "Scottish", "Northern Irish", etc. Scottish/Welsh/English/Northern Irish people are all, also, British. Neil ム 10:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the problem could be resolved and clarified by changing the template for the info box to include separate lines for Citizenship, which is a legal relationship to a state, and one for Nationality which might include ethnic/cultural descent/preference. The latter is a little harder to define or label, and to do without causing offense, and should be based on how the individual thinks of themself. Derek Andrews 12:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel we should compromise on this as its very straight forward. Someones nationality is that of the sovereign nation which issues their passport. In this case British as scotland a region/constituant country of the UK. This is essentially an ethno-nationalist POV arguement with little ground. To put scottish becomes confussing to, say someone is born to two scottish parents in the USA and has a a US passport... are the scottish, or are they american? It becomes tough to decide because what your suggesting we do is make their ethnicity (scottish) into their nationality (american). Realistically they are an American of scottish descent. Lets keep it simple, nationality is the UK. I really don't see how one can come up with a solid argument otherwise. I think that for us to compromise on this is sacraficing ground to capitulate something just to avoid discussing it? Why change the template when its perfectly clear what nationality is. Its simple, someone from the UK is British regardless of their parents ancestory or their locale of birth. WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 12:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

So your passport determines it? What about people without passports? They Have no nation, they have no home!!! Oh Crap!... come on. How about what nation issued their birth certificate? What about immigrants? Are they the nationality of birth, or of current Citizenship? And for holders of multiple citizenship, entitled to multiple passports? Passports is a lousy, unstable and 20th century-limited means of solving this. ThuranX 23:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

ILikePikachu (talk · contribs)

This user has just threatened to harass me as an anon. editor, because I responded to his/her complaining that we wouldn't put editorial warnings on a page separate from her talk page Isn't there a way to block whatever IP she's using temporarily in case she goes after User:WODUP after she finds that my talk page is semi'd because of BSR trolling? -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 02:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Already blocked as I was entering a reminder to avoid attacks. I do concur with the block however. --JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 02:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Including the IP? I was threatened with the promise she'd harass me through my talk page as an anon, and my talk page is semi-protected because of BlackStarRock sockpuppets, leaving WODUP as the only other possible victim since he was the one with the banhammer. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The default settings for blocks (when blocking a username) is to block the underlying IP for 24 hours and block account creation. If this block had not blocked the underlying IP, there would have been a note to that effect in the block log. The IP can't be blocked for longer than 24 hours though, so s/he may show up later. There really isn't anything we can do about that until they make themselves known. Natalie 15:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Might want to check it against the user Iloveminun, which was banned by arbcom for a year for harassment, as both usernames follow the formula pronoun-positive verb-electric pokemon. Will ^(talk) 13:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Iloveminun wouldn't need to; her ban ended app. a month ago, and she's stale in CU eyes (unless she's edited within the past month). -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 18:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Principles 7 and 8 still stand if it is Minun, though. Will ^(talk) 20:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

8 does not apply in this case; she did not resume the agenda of her "WAPAM" thing (the page is deleted and salted, but I believe admins would still be able to see the underlying edits) and the only page she's really disrupted is her own talk page, which is currently protected for 24 hours because of her gratuitous use of {{unblock}}. She did not revert anything I did to enforce the merge consensus (i.e. reverting her WAPAM-related mainspace edits), either. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 21:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Lexicon's block of Iwazaki

As amply demonstrated by these incidents, [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], Lexicon (previously Osgoodelawyer) has had a number of content disputes with Iwazaki on Wikipedia since at least November last year. He has repeatedly made uncivil comments to Iwazaki such as "okay, this is the last time I'm going to bother responding to you", "reply to yet another non-argument", left edit sums like "comment on what is clearly Iwazaki's IP voting" (about an IP from Ohio, while Iwazaki is from Japan) and made senseless, unproven allegations like "the last vote by the IP address is obviously you, Iwazaki".

In July he gave Iwazaki a "warning" based on a previous AN/I complaint by Taprobanus, but apart from saying "warned", Lexicon failed to reply to any of the subsequent postings questioning the validity of the warning.[22] Note, on that occasion Taprobanus directly posted on Lexicon's talk page asking him to comment on the report, instead of simply leaving it up to uninvolved administrators.[23] Yesterday, Lexicon blocked Iwazaki for 48hr for alleged "personal attacks", following another direct posting by Taprobanus on Lexicon's talk page.

On both occasions, the comments in question were those Iwazaki made calling Taprobanus a "contributor to racist websites". It has been previously proven here on AN/I that Taprobanus has contributed to websites such as http://www.tamilnation.org and http://www.sangam.org, both extremely racist websites, and repeatedly cited them in controversial Wikipedia articles.[24]

In this case, Iwazaki's comment was in response to User:Taprobanus's claims in a number of separate places of an AFD discussion, including in the nomination (As the author of this article, I can say that this has long since ceased to fulfill the requirements WP:LIST and ...), and in other replies (I made the mistake when I created it a year ago, it (now) has to go), inferring that he created the article and therefore it should now be deleted as he didn't like it anymore.

Also note, Taprobanus gave Lexicon a barnstar a few days before the first "warning", Iwazaki has never been blocked on Wikipedia for any reason before (he has been contributing since July 2006) and Lexicon hasn't blocked a user on Wikipedia since the 13th of August.[25]

I believe all these put toghether raises the question of how ethical it is for an administrator, who as been involved with a user in a number of disputes, to block the user following a personal request by another editor, without consulting any other admin or leaving any notes on AN/I. --snowolfD4 ^{( talk / @ )} 01:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you forgeting that Iwazaki asked for a block review. Which was denied by another admin who has never been involved in such disputes ? Have you forgoten that Iwazaki was warned multiple times before ? Including other Personal attacks on editors warned by an Admin. It seems that Lexicon is more than justified for that block! Watchdogb 06:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• The attacks [26][27][28] by User:Iwazaki on User:Lexicon are ridiculous. Those who are familiar with Sri Lankan Civil War are well known of the attacks and harassments of User:Iwazaki. User:Iwazaki is nearly warned [29] by User:Tariqabjotu for harassing User:Lustead identifying the user with Rajsingha and AFD [30] of his bio on wikipedia at the Requests for mediation/AMG Chemmani. User:Iwazaki has some extent warned by other users at the AFD of the subject whom User:Iwazaki is relating with User:Lustead [31],[32],[33].ShalpherX 15:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• In response to your general point, an admin should know (and almost invariably does) when an action could be construed as controversial, and knows they have the option to seek an outside opinion before acting. From what you have outlined above, it may have been appropriate for Lexicon to do so. However, I am not personally well-versed in the finer details, nor have we heard from Lexicon here hence I pass no judgement. So, with regard to your specific point, if you feel this merits further examination you may wish to head over to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct#Use of administrator privileges Deiz talk 06:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion Deiz, I created a RFC on Lexicon here, and notified him about it. --snowolfD4 ^{( talk / @ )} 18:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Lexicon warned in July on basis of a complaint in the ANi.[34]All this took place in the ANI July 26th 2007.
• Warned. If he continues to further imply that you are racist, notify me. Lexicon (talk) 17:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[35] and user Taprobanus notified him leading to Iwasaki being blocked.I do not see him acting properly he asked Taprobanus to notify him in the ANI on 26th July 2007 which he did and it was reviewed by a neutral admin.All this was transparent.

While I strongly defend Iwasaki's right to his views I believe that his controversial comments are a violation of WP:CIVILand WP:NPA while he is free to express his views it is not necessary to post the same comments again and again he could have illusrated his points without these comments and further he is weakening by saying he would do so in the future [36] .Leaving aside the ban ,I do not see any hidden agenda as everything took based on what took place in the ANI on July 26th 2007.Pharaoh of the Wizards 02:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Victim of libel wants some libel removed, but that could violate the GFDL

In this diff, Sam Wightkin, a victim of libel, wants his attack entry removed in this diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-07-30&diff=158169551&oldid=158166219 . I removed this, but the content is still in the page history. This case would be an open-and-shut oversight case if it was caught early enough, but I do not know what to do now that the libel is deep in the page history. Jesse Viviano 02:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the libel with a note that the libel was removed, but it is still in the page history. Jesse Viviano 02:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Try Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. Durova^Charge! 02:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that it's too far down in the history for oversight, and there are too many revisions that need to be zapped. So I've done two things - I've deleted the suggester's edit, and I've courtesy blanked the section. This way it doesn't show up on Google. Maxim_(talk) 02:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Deleting the vandal's edit but allowing page versions that contain the libel to exist violates the GFDL and will probably implicate the wrong person or IP as the vandal who did the libel. However, removing the libel from the live view is kosher. Jesse Viviano 07:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Allowing us to delete seriously libellous material from history is one of the basic reasons oversight was created. If the defamatory content is a serious enough real-world problem, a purely theoretical GFDL concern must yield. Newyorkbrad 03:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Legal threat User:Real77

Contentious and difficult user is making legal threats.[37] It's not clear from WP:Legal what I do now, tag it, what? KP Botany 06:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I found the template to tag the user, but other than that, what, if anything. Is there a notice board for this? "If Wikpedia is not going to play ball with 3rd aprty verifable issues then this shall be referred to lawyers as an individual has the right to control his or her reptutation and,name and likeness through themselves or third parties." KP Botany 06:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This be the place. There's no NLT noticeboard, thankfully! Keep us posted on his response. El_C 06:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

User has been blocked indefinitely (or until they agree to not make any more legal threats). Someone should probably go over Anna Wilding and cleanup any unsourced statements, as this is the article the user appears to have a problem with (though from what I can tell, they want to add content, not remove). --- RockMFR 07:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

More eyes on the article could not hurt, however there are a group of excellent Wikipedia editors who are already attempting to clean up the article. Real77 claims to be working for Anna Wilding but is doing nothing but trashing the article's talk page and making the article as ugly as possible. My concern at this point is that because he claims to be working for Ms. Wilding, he is making her look awful with his edits, particularly his talk page ranting which is largely incomprehensible. This sounds reasonable, though, blocking until a user agrees to not make any more legal threats. Thanks. KP Botany 07:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no response from the user. However, another editor quit editing because of nasty and potentially threatening (legal) comments to him. Without Real77 around a small handful of those who have weathered the nastiness have removed the poofunery, the bad grammar, the horrid punctuation, the fluff, and the poor English, so the article looks halfway decent. In light of what has happened, most of the article has been tagged for fact checking and all sources will be individually verified. Thanks. KP Botany 21:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Legal threat by Anna Wilding's representatives

It appears that Ms. Wilding has attempted to pressure others into publishing her resume and self-publicity.[38] She filed some complaint against the New Zealand Press Council for failing to publish her photos and press release. At this point I ask that administrators consider reblocking both User:Real77 and User:Tonyx123 who are both working for Ms. Wilding, from editing Wikipedia. Real77 issued a legal threat, was blocked, agreed not to issue any more, so his block was removed--as seemed appropriate. However, in light of the fact that it appears Ms. Wilding filed a formal complaint against another entity for failing to do what she is attempting to manipulate Wikipedia into doing, namely publish her publicity materials and resume, I think blocking these users might be appropriate. Deleting the article about her might be appropriate also. KP Botany 03:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

PS, In spite of saying he would not issue any more legal threats Real77 calls an editor's edits to the Anna Wilding article defamatory.[39] I don't think that his behaviour is something ordinary Wikipedia editors should be dealing with. KP Botany 03:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

My bad, he wasn't unblocked, I forget he can edit his own user page while blocked. Sorry! I suggest he not be unblocked, then. KP Botany 03:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• The legal threats have really gotten out of hand. I have also received numerous harassing e-mails and phone calls from Anna Wilding herself. I originally suggested to her that to shore up some of the lack of credible sources I do an interview with her for Wikinews; this offer to help her has suddenly become, in her mind that I am trying to "blackmail" (her words) an interview out of her. I have barely edited the article. I only came across it because I photographed her at the Spiderman 3 premiere. I have sent her my own "cease and desist" letter and copied her attorney on it. They are completely in the wrong here, both Wikipedia-wise and legally; I'm not sure how to proceed from here, but days ago I removed myself from assisting Anna Wilding and the article in any way. --David Shankbone 14:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Do they realize they are more likely to get her article deleted as a not notable actress then to get her preferred version out there? --Rocksanddirt 20:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we get this sock puppet of Real77 blocked? User:66.65.119.19[40] I don't feel threatened, but it's boring. KP Botany 02:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Islands around Ireland dispute

Hy, I, Flamarande, hereby wish to report Saoirsegodeohf (talk • contribs) who engaged himself in disruptive behaviour and now proceeded to insult me personally. The mentioned user sees himself as a kind of "national champion/avenger of the Irish" and unilaterally deleted several links leading to the British Isles article. After I sent him a post explaining my reasons for reverting his edits he took upon insulting me. Please take a good look at his edits and especially at his talkpage. I also believe that this user operated previously under an anonymous IP namely 81.99.82.237 although I'm currently unable to prove this. I hope for a quick resolution as the facts are quite evident. Thanks Flamarande 16:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I've just moved this here from AN. ornis (t) 16:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I blocked him for two hours and directed him to the relevant policies. There weren't any really explicit warnings about it, and I'll unblock if he promises to behave. If anyone thinks I'm over the line, they can unblock if they like. WilyD 16:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, given this [41] I would have made it longer. ELIMINATORJR 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

How ever one feels about the term "british isles" Saoirsegodeohf (whose name translates from Irish as something like "freedom forever") is povpushing and being incivil. I concur with Eliminator - they deserve a longer block--Cailil ^talk 17:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah maybe, but he hasn't been given any warnings so I was a little reluctant to block at all. Two hours should give him enough time to read NPA. If he doesn't shape up after the first block, longer ones can always be applied. WilyD 17:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that wikipedia proclaims itself to be neutral, well this certainly is not neutral, I see that other Irish people seem to feel the ssame way I do on this issue and the term British isles is not neutrel hence the British isles naming dispute. If it were neutrel the Irish government would accept it and the British government would use it in media but the fact of the matter is this doesn't happen. And as for the majority of people using it I doubt this is true, even if it was you can call a sheep as cow all you want but it doesn't make it so. I will ask you to do something about this situation as you can see i feel very strongly on the issue as do many of my countrymen and it is highly unjust for a so called neurel encyclopedia to give people the wrong information to contribute to them myth the Ireland it part of the British isles. The uncivil behaviour i deemed necessary by what I can only describe as a tremendous insult towards me on the part of flamengo who not living in Britain or Ireland and cannot really comment on what we call the isles around us.

Go raibh maith agat —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saoirsegodeohf (talk • contribs) 09:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Ireland happens to be the second largest of the British Isles. That is a simple fact that you can find in nearly any general reference book or geography text that covers the topic, or at our own article British Isles. This is just a geographic name, not a claim of ownership, and its use is certainly not a reason for going ballistic. --Stephan Schulz 00:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

AM I ABUSED OR JUST RECTIFIED?

”Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks
Personal attacks are the parts of a comment which can be considered personally offensive and which have no relevant factual content”

I am New. I have made no direct contributions to Wikipedia articles. But I am interested in the general welfare of humanity, all categories, as also many other humans are. And I, as everybody else, have questions, ideas, and opinions. We all know this part.

On the talk page No Original Research, I have recently made a submission to the ongoing debate, illuminating details with referring examples. It ends with a question. ”What say you?”. Following this, a Wikipedian takes no notice of the quest at hand in my submission, but instead begins like this:

”I say this: BellMJ, in the month or two you have been here you have not contributed to any articles. I suggest you get some actual expeience researching and making contributions to articles that stand the test of time, and have more experience collaborating with editors working on aticles, before you try to comment on our core policies. SLrubenstein | Talk 11:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)”

I find no connection in this contribution to my submission, nor any part or detail in it, in concern of the factual content.

It, hence, just seems to me, that this Wikipedian SLrubenstein either
1. DO HAVE A MOTIF in rejecting my presence on the talk page JUST, exactly as he/she claims, BECAUSE ”you have not contributed to any articles”, or
2. that the Wikipedian SLrubenstein points to my person as an INTRUDER, type ”Get out of here!”, ”We don’t want you here!”.
I do not accept a provocation, if that is the intention.

I have never before had any interference with this SLrubenstein or any other Wikipedian, it just popped up recently as described. And I have neither made any approach to talk to this Wikipedian SLrubenstein as he/she already has made his point clear. Besides that, I don’t know more than you.

So. How is it?
FIRST contribute, THEN you can join Wikipedia talk page No Original Research?
Is that so? Or is the Wikipedian SLrubenstein prominently talking for Wikipedia?

I very much would like Wikipedia administration to have a clear answer to the question.
Show me. Please. BMJ 17:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

some people are here for months and still don't Get It. Some people arrive here and become outstanding editors from day one. I suppose this is a matter of differences in intelligence, of experience, and of common sense. Hence, there are no fixed rules of "first do this for n days, then that". SLrubenstein gave you well-meant advice, and you should consider it, that's all. For your questions, ideas, and opinions, be aware of WP:VP and WP:RD, where they will receive due attention. --dab (𒁳) 18:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hence: rectified. Not abused. I thank you for taking your time in giving me an honest answer.

wkg/BMJ 18:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

yes, but not "in the name of the Establishment". We all speak in our own names, and the policy pages condense out of Wikipedia:Consensus. It's complicated, because it doesn't work in theory, just in practice :) --dab (𒁳) 19:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

dab. Thank you for still showing patience. All right then. You mention ”differences in intelligence” and ”Wikipedia consensus”. IF in Wikipedia consensus also is included an active, practical, recognition of the Declaration from 1948 (WIKIPEDIA HAS NO PRONOUNCED SUCH RECOGNITION, as far as here known), the type ”differences in intelligence” should have no representation in Wikipedia, in accord with the Declaration (Article 1) ”All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights …”. Equal. Consensus. With respect to THIS, hence: There is no ”differences in intelligence” in humanity, except as stated from profound everyday Nazi ideology quarters. One human being is not ”better” or ”higher” or ”more intelligent” than any other, even if it SEEMS so. We all have EQUAL basic properties of mind, but see the landscape from different views, and no one of us is more valuable than the other, even if it SEEMS so. I don’t mean to be rude on reminding on that, but the type ”differences in intelligence” definitely does not belong to Wikipedia, on the recently made provisions. Compare THEN ”the guidelines” to ANY talk page in concern of ”consensus” (Meaning: in practice Wikipedia is a MESS). However, dab, feel free to object!

With kind greetings, former BMJ.--85.89.80.140 12:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

"Equal in dignity and rights" does not mean equal in ability. And, while the 'Nazi ideology' that one race or ethnicity is as a group less intelligent than another is manifestly false, that does not mean two individual people cannot be of different intelligence, that is to say, I can be smarter (or less smart) than my brother or sister, or my neighbor, without any reference to what race, gender, ethnicity, either are. --Random832 13:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Random. I think I know what you mean. We are getting out of the main focus here, but OK then if that is OK with you to. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is YOUR point, right?: IN COMPARISON between all the mathematical aces on planet Earth, that is all the professors and doctors of academia, with those in the classes who did NOT pass the examination, the latter are LESS intelligible, LESS smart, because the former make the gauges to the IQ portals and tests. Right? --85.89.80.140 14:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

---

I see time lingers, so I will try to finish this thread and return focus to Wikipedia policy in the end, which was how this started:

My point is this: 1. ”intelligence” is (mostly) associated with Mathematical Merits (MM) and which I assume dab and Random agree with, 2. these smart aces (MM) are in minority in humanity. Not in majority. Meaning: IF the Math Aces REALLY would be (so) smart, they also would be able to EXPLAIN to the rest of humanity, their class mates, the fancy Idea of Intelligence they merited on, and so even out the difference between the two camps. But as we know, this is NOT the case. SO, there is a proof here, sort of: The majority of humanity is the proof that the minority of so called mathematical aces NOT are profoundly intelligible, not any more than any other. Meaning: The idea of ”intelligence” and ”smart” is only relative to opinion, not to ability. Please object if you can. (former BMJ. --85.89.80.140 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

Wait - when did I say I agreed with whatever wacky definition of "intelligence" you are accusing others of using? --Random832 18:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The ABILITY of APPREHENSION — to conclude a stream of concepts leading to a denser form, such as one which is normally occurring in mathematics, because that is, as I know, the simplest example to show — IS EQUAL FOR ALL HUMAN BEINGS (we omit, of course, medical defects and assume a biologically normally developed being). This apprehensibility, THE ability OF being INTELLIGIBLE as such, has no differentiation, no scale from higher to lower. It is equal for all human beings, but it seems you do not agree. I can, and will, continue on this, but first: Am I reading this correct, or do you have objections? Please feel free to object.

Then, my friend, the idea of being ”SMART” is just relative to OPINION, not ability. That is, whether you are tuned to ACCEPT and ACCOMMODATE one philosophy or another, one idea or another. It is NOT, as I mean, a matter of INTELLIGENCE. Because, NATURE, not us, IS the intelligible part. We only have to open our eyes to see it. Original Research. Primary sources. Wikipedia policy debate. Consensus.

The conclusion is hence, Random, in contradiction to your statement: Equal in dignity and rights DO MEAN equal in ability — your contribution, Random and dab. Of course not ability to surrender to different ideologies, or show loyalty to a particularly declared policy, but ability to apprehend what nature presents to the human in all its dimensions and variations. There is no difference. We only see that landscape from different point of views. (But this is all elementary and we SHOULD be familiar with it BEFORE we enter a discussion on the editorial level of cosensus: human rights).

With kind greetings, former BMJ. --85.89.80.140 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

If "equal in dignity and rights" really did mean "equal in ability", then you would say it's impossible to say one person can jump higher than another, or lift more weight, or run faster, or write a better novel, or paint a better picture. How is intelligence [not whatever wacky "MM" definition of 'intelligence' you accuse everyone else of having, but a common sense definition] any different? To take your idea about the meaning of equality to its full conclusion, why not say everyone is of equal height, equal weight, equal age?--Random832 18:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please, Random: Both man and woman have the same INTELLECTUAL capabilities. Is that a problem for you?

If it is, please say so, and this debate ends here.

BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A MAN CAN HAVE SEX THE WAY A WOMAN CAN.

It neither means that a small child can jump as high as a full trained sportsman can. These are both examples of different CAPABILITIES. A one legged man is not capable of running. But nothing of this makes distinction to INTELLIGENCE. Do you, really, have a problem with that?

Please repeat again then, to make sure you are observed.

With kind greetings, former BMJ. --85.89.80.140 19:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of you: this is not a discussion for the admin noticeboard (I even doubt it belongs on Wikipedia at all...) so please either drop it or continue it on user talk pages, if necessary. If there is something here that does require admin attention, please let us know in a concise and clear way. Fram 19:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Fram. I will end this here and try to contact Random on his talk page.

With kind greetings, former BMJ.--85.89.80.140 19:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Fake admin???

The user AlanJohns has been causing vandalism on the following article, firstly he used a source that didn`t actually say what he wrote in the article, when I reverted his edit, he put it back the way he wanted saying he was an adminisrator so dont delete, (I have my suspicions this is a lie), when I reverted it again he vandalised the article by deleting a page worth of sourced material with no explanation. I also checked out his user page and he seems to be causing trouble elsewhere. [[42]]. Realist2 18:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

diff. blanking diff. user might need a warning. --dab (𒁳) 18:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours by User:Ryanpostlethwaite. (He's lucky Ryan got to him before me...) Raymond Arritt 18:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't he be blocked longer for trying to impersonate an admin? JACO, Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 18:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't accept users claiming to be admins to win content disputes [43] - next time he disrupts the block will be for much longer. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As an aside: His userpage looks like a personal record store. — Edokter • Talk • 18:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

my thoughts exactly, it put me in an bad position because even though I felt his edit was wrong I was scared to revert it. Realist2 18:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that administrators have no special authority in content disputes, so pretending to be an admin to win a content dispute is doubly incorrect. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanx, I was always under the impression at what ever an admin says simply goes, ill keep this in mind, as for his user page, hello he`s clearly lying through his teeth like he did about being an admin. Realist2 18:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I wish. :) See also Wikipedia:Administrators. Garion96 (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

CHECK OUT THIS USERS PAGE AGAIN, HE`S JUST RECIEVED ANOTHER WARNING FOR HIS EDITS. I THINK A LONGER BLOCK IS REQUIRED ITS CLEAR HE IS INTENT ON BEING A TROUBLESOME EDITOR. Realist2 18:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

He's (obviously) made no edits since the block. The warning that he received was for something he did prior to the block. No further action is in order at this time, but trust that I'll keep an eye on him when his block expires. - Philippe | Talk 18:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

AlanJohns has at least one Fair Use image on his User page which someone should remove. I don't want to do it for fear of starting an edit war, but somebody needs to do it. The other images have suspicious copyrights, as well. Corvus cornix 21:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the one with no copyright status, but someone with more image experience should investigate whether or not the copyrights on the other images are legit, as you pointed out Corvus. The Hybrid 21:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

His userpage is fake, as far as I can tell. He is not associated with any of the albums on that page, the sales records are false, and I doubt he played a main character in a GTA film that has no information on IMDB. I'd say speedy as vanity nonsense while one is at it. MSJapan 21:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

New sock of user blocked yesterday

MR-WRIGLEY (talk · contribs) is engaging in the same behavior (uploading images of Sabrina Lloyd) as the blocked user from this thread yesterday. Another apparent sock of Snootchie44 (talk · contribs). Videmus Omnia ^Talk 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see User:Snootchie44 being blocked. Navou ^banter 19:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks like EliminatorJR blocked the sockpuppet, but not the sockmaster or the IP. However, there's not much doubt in this case, MR-WRIGLEY (talk · contribs) is even uploading the same screenshot that PixieGuard (talk · contribs) (the sock from yesterday) was. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 20:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked MR-WRIGLEY (talk · contribs) as a sock of Snootchie44 (talk · contribs). Navou ^banter 20:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

copied from separate section below, as both section refer to same issue.

I have blocked MR-WRIGLEY (talk · contribs) as a sock of Snootchie44 (talk · contribs), there is some explanation on User talk:MR-WRIGLEY. May I have a second opinion? Thanks in advance. Navou ^banter 21:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Quack. Quack quack. You can either believe that I'm a sad pathetic person who spends his life creating sock puppet accounts on Wikipedia and attempting to vandalise the system by uploading images and annoying administrators by wasting their time, or... no, the "or" is superfluous. Quack. ➔ This is REDVEЯS 21:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• search Occam's Razor into Wikipedia and read the article, the basic principle is that the simplest explanation is often the right one. Yes, a sock is the simplest explanation. And there is enough evidence to make that assumption. - Dean Wormer 22:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• I could have sworn that I blocked User:Snootchie44 when I blocked the first sockpuppet. Obviously I didn't, so I'll do it now and extend the block since he's created another one since. ELIMINATORJR 22:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Blocked troll

I blocked Hexadecimale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I am sure this is an alternate account being used for trolling - if not a banned user then an inappropriate sock. I don't think it's a coincidence that his edits consist largely of asking what the problem could possibly be with antisocialmedia.net Guy (Help!) 21:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse. Alarm bells, quacking, etc as Guy suggests. Not Good. ➔ This is REDVEЯS 21:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Ditto Concerniokw (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). More eyes on that arbitration case, please, it's clearly always going to be a troll magnet. Guy (Help!) 17:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Um. Placing indefinite blocks prior to either account doing anything significantly wrong doesn't seem quite kosher to me. Do they look vaguely 'sockish'? Sure. And? We don't block all alternate accounts indefinitely. Only those of users who are banned or which are being used in disruptive ways. Asking questions you don't like is not disruptive. The Concerniokw account, quite frankly, made a good point about the fact that we have an article on Wikipedia Watch which links to that site despite it clearly falling under any of the definitions of unlinkable 'attack site' being pushed. Your removal of that point from the ArbCom case and indefinite blocking of him hardly seems equitable given your obvious partisanship on the subject. As an involved party you should have gotten someone else to place the blocks - if any justification for such could be found in the WP:BLOCK policy. --CBD 18:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with CBD. Removing comments and blocking users for "trolling" when they simply raise valid points in a debate seems like an improper thing to do, particularly when the admin who does it is one involved in the same debate in a partisan manner. However, those accounts do look suspicious, given that they came out of nowhere to comment in a contentious RFAr case; this, however, is not automatically wrongdoing. Given that at least one person has already suggested that I be banned for my comments in that debate, I could easily understand why an active, non-banned editor might want to contribute to that discussion using a hard-to-trace sockpuppet account rather than his/her main Wikipedia identity. *Dan T.* 18:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

So can I. And if I were to do so I would either email the arbs or make a note that it's an alternate account on the user page. Which neither of these did. As it happens they turn out to be parts of a sock farm - which is hardly a surprise. Guy (Help!) 22:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse. Checks out to be the same person as several other previous sockpuppets, probably by a banned user. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Not surprised, thanks for checking, though. Guy (Help!) 22:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, under these circumstances I think the block was clearly appropriate. We don't need these particular waters muddied further by obvious socks with axes to grind. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 22:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse. Concur with Matthew Brown on this one. User is definitely sockpuppeteer. Cary Bass ^demandez 22:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Angrygurl2007

Resolved

 – removed, user blocked

• Angrygurl2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I just visited this user's talk page and someone has posted a very innappropriate and harassing comment about this user. Can someone please remove it? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kagome 85 (talk • contribs) 18:14, September 16, 2007

• Someone else removed it, and I indefblocked the user who posted it. We don't allow that sort of abuse - ever. ELIMINATORJR 22:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Need some assistance with User:Blytonite

Blytonite (talk · contribs) is the primary editor of the Amal Hijazi article. Over the past couple of months, the user has been warned at least a dozen times about uploading copyrighted portraits of this singer, to show her appearance, in violation of WP:NFCC#1. He's reposted content that's been deleted, both here and as copyvio on Commons. In addition to the warnings, I've explained the problem at Talk:Amal Hijazi. I'm wondering at which point the deliberate violation of policy despite a dozen warnings merits a block. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 23:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Previous report, which was archived. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 23:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the images from the article, and am now looking into the history to see how many warnings he has been given. ElinorD (talk) 23:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I've left another explanation, with links to image policy pages, and with a warning that future violations will lead to a block. I've also speedied the two images, which he had simply re-uploaded, following a previous deletion. Thanks for bringing it here, Videmus. ElinorD (talk) 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Elinor, hopefully that's the end of the issue. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 23:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

New overly-aggressive copyright bot "OsamaK" flagging valid logos

There's a new bot, User talk:OsamaK, which is flagging several hundred valid logo images per day because it doesn't like the format of their {{non-free logo}} logo templates. This goes beyond the policy in Wikipedia:Logos. The bot threatens to delete the images, and it's not clear how to make the 'bot happy, or even if that's possible. Complaints are building up on the talk page, but the bot's owner won't shut it off. This isn't the "fair use rationale" 'bot; it's something else. For an example of the bot's actions, see Image:Cafairslogo.png, the logo of the California Department of Food and Agriculture, Division of Fairs and Expositions. Suggest 'bot be disabled pending investigation. --John Nagle 00:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The bot is doing its job correctly. The example image you listed has no source and no rationale. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 00:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, exactly. And the source you just added is totally inadequate; you actually have to tell us where you got it from, not just nebulously name an organization. Is it a scan from one of their press-releases? Did you download it from their website? Did someone in organization email it to you? What's the source? --Haemo 00:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example where the image had both a source and a fair-use rationale: Image:Canterbury tales.gif. The bot wasn't smart enough to recognize them. Bear in mind that policy doesn't require such info to be expressed in a standard format. --John Nagle 01:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a source for that image anywhere. --Haemo 01:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, go ahead and delete the logos. --John Nagle 01:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The bot is far too aggressive. If a picture is missing a Fair Use Rationale, the usual is to allow 7 days before deletion, not simply 48 hours. What happens if this is done during a weekend away? There are ways to do things properly and this is not one of them. --Asterion^talk 06:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really familiar with the WP:BRFA process, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. It looks like this particular bot account is running a number of robots, and the one in question was approved for a trial of 50 edits. As of now, a quick analysis of the bot history shows that it has made some ~5,000 edits in the past 10 days or so (that's just this particular automated procedure; not including other automated procedures from the same bot account). Furthermore, the bot was approved for this function: "Find the images without source and telling the uploader". I would say that tagging thousands of images for deletion falls outside "telling the uploader." The bot is making mistakes all over the place, since it expects sources to be in a specific format which is not required by any image policy. Moreover, as User:Yandman pointed out,[44] the interpretation of policy which the bot's work is premised on seems inconsistent with our image use policy ("Source: The copyright holder of the image or URL of the web page the image came from" -- the bot ignores the former completely), and is at best contentious. I would strongly suggest that an admin hit the shutoff button until these matters are resolved. — xDanielx ^T/_C 06:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It was indeed only approved for a 50 edit trial with the procedure detailed in Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/OsamaKBOT_5, and it went way, way over that. Given the feedback above, and as I don't see anything relating to it being released to do any more than that, I've blocked the bot til this is resolved. Neil ム 10:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Gnomonist spam war

A ridiculously silly spam war is going on in Sundial (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Gnomon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Equation of time (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I would suggest semi-protection of these pages, which is what many other Wikipedias have done. See Talk:Sundial#mysundial.ca link. This also seems to indicate that user SunDoggie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is circumventing a seven day block. /SvNH 00:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

All 3 have been semi protected for 48 hours. I also changed SunDoggie's block to indef. A quick perusal of their contributions is enough to tell me they are not here to contribute constructively. Mr.Z-man 01:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I will monitor these articles, if they continue to spam, they will be blocked, its sad that we have to protect pages because of crap like this. Block the perpetrators and be done with it. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 05:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Also blocked SunDoggie's IP sock 142.161.196.168. Raymond Arritt 05:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I actually forgot one, Diptych (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). /SvNH 06:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

A concern about potential ageism

SqueakBox (talk · contribs) removed the word "feelings" on the Child sexuality article, stating that "rm feelings as unsourced and because children precisely do not have the emotional maturity to have sexual feelings". I reverted it, asking how he knows this (as he is not a child himself). He then reverted me and while I don't have a problem with someone reverting an edit I made that for example violated Wikipedia policy, I don't think it is right when he says "dont are-add unsouirced material go source it otherwise yopur edit is unaccept" [sic! notice the spelling]. The word "feelings" does not need a reference, and I said so, and to say that children cannot feel sexual feelings is ageistic. I don't want to add my own POV to this, but I should say that as a person, I know this, because it has not even been so much as three years since I have been legally a child. I don't want to pit my POV against his; all I want is a solution that makes as many people happy as possible. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  03:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This strikes me as a content issue that can be addressed in the ordinary editing process. Detail your views and concerns on the talkpage and look for input from other editors to achieve consensus on agreeable NPOV language. I don't see anything requiring admin action at this time (although you've certainly drawn attention to the issue), and I don't think a question of ageism really is involved. Newyorkbrad 03:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the talk page sounds good enough, except that he used it in the only way I don't like to see it used, that is, as a substitute for talking to me on my page. Also, I would agree with you about ageism being or not being involved, but it seems that by persisting SqueakBox has come across as that way. I'm not saying he is, but he has seemed to be. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  03:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The tips in WP:DR might be helpful as well. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 04:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What is it that you'd like an admin to do, specifically? El_C 04:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to note that SqueakBox can be a difficult editor to work with. He is convinced that he is fighting the good fight on Wikipedia by carefully monitoring pedophilia-related articles. Undoubtedly, that monitoring has to be done and it certainly isn't an easy task. SB is very passionate about it. That being said, he frequently fails to assume good faith, escalates conflict into edit wars, routinely reverts with unnecessary "rv trolling" edit summaries, is prone, as in the present case, to impose his point of view on an article. More troubling, he's very quick to label people disagreeing with him as supporters of pro-pedophile activists (see [45] or User_talk:SqueakBox/history for an extensive list of examples). He has been warned (and blocked) repeatedly for personal attacks and revert warring without much change in his behavior. Of course, he's been here for a while and has done a lot of good work but there's an ongoing pattern here that needs to be addressed and probably would have been addressed a long time ago were admins less wary of getting the "oh so you are against protecting the wiki from pedophiles?". Pascal.Tesson 05:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually to claim children are capable of sexual maturity is simply (a) not true and (b) has nothing to do with ageism, not quite sure what Pascal's outbusrt is about but there si nothing wrong with this eduit summary whereas it was Springer's insistence on re-adding unosurced material that was the problem here, and anyway alleged ageism isnt like rascism etc esp with young people as they just have to be patient. And assuming good faith in articles plagued by months of proven sock-pupopetry actually is not required by our policies ansd perhaps admins would do better to attend to that rathert han the god faith activities of myself. What needs addressing is a pro-pedophile clique,. not my behaviour in battling them though that has nothing to do with this case either. I gave a reasonable edit summary, Sproiinger didnt like being told he had to source so came here and Pascal, for reasons that are baffling, decided to attack me here. Nothing for admins to see here, SqueakBox 14:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You are in fact demonstrating what I'm concerned about. First of all, you should stay cool and assume good faith even when dealing with articles that are plagued by problems. Yes, there are many socks on these articles but Springeragh is not one of them as far as I know and he deserves respect. Secondly, your edit summary was "rm feelings as unsourced and because children precisely do not have the emotional maturity to have sexual feelings" which, ironically, indicates classical POV editing. Clearly, child sexuality as a scholarly subject tries to understand sexuality in children in the widest possible sense and the study of sexual feelings in children is part of that subject though I am sure there's debate as to what should be considered sexual feeling in children. But here you are saying: "children are capable of sexual maturity is simply not true". This is a) your point of view and b) has nothing to do whatsoever with the inclusion of the word "feelings". You are once again rewriting the article so that it fits your views on child sexuality and, in the face of criticism, deflecting the discussion to a purported pro-pedophile clique. Your fight against that clique does not give you special rights here. Pascal.Tesson 16:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This debate does not belong here. WP:ANI is not dispute resolution. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - Squeakbox overreacted but this is a simple editing dispute. WilyD 16:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

When I made the comment Springer wasnt involved and what I did was to remove unsourced material which is clearly allowed by policy and then expressed my opinion as to why, which is exactly what I should have done. Springer then created a spurious ageism complaint. I never made any statements about Springer being a sock nor implied them. You may disagree with me, Pascal, but do not criticise me for removing disputed, unsourced material, your implication that that is wrong shows a poor understanding of policy and policy implementation for an admin, SqueakBox 17:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information, Pascal.Tesson, I appreciate it. SqueakBox—I know that you never said I was a sock; why do you bring that up? Also it is not exactly, um, good faith (sorry) to say that Pascal.Tesson has or shows a poor understanding of policy. It could border on a personal attack depending on who reads it although I do not consider it one myself. J.smith, I'm sorry I worded it so as to sound like a request for dispute resolution; I did not intend for it to not fit here. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  01:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It wasnt me who brought up the sock issue. I wasnt commenting on Pascal but on his comments re our policies and his apparent thinking you cant remove unsourced material (a belief of his I have come up against before when he opposed my removal of unourced living people from the now deleted rape category). We are duty bounmd to remove unsourced material wherever we find it in the main psace and policy backs that so its odd to see an admin here saying exactly the opposite. If there is dispute resolution needed I would guess it would be between Pascal and I, SqueakBox 01:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Squeak, do you even believe what you're writing? You know full well what I told you about that category and it has nothing to do with the removal of unsourced material. Stop dragging me through the mud and maybe just maybe consider that you may be wrong to claim that the lead sentence of the article Child sexuality which was "Child sexuality refers to sexual feelings, behavior and development in children" has to be sourced. Pascal.Tesson 01:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Subpage deletion

Can some uninvolved admin please look at User:TMLutas/WMC and take the appropriate steps? Thanks. --Stephan Schulz 03:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted this page as meeting the WP:CSD#G10 criterion. Any admin is welcome to undelete if I have applied this criterion too liberally in this case. Regards, Navou ^banter 04:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I've no idea about the issues with this dispute, but I've seen many user subpages like this one; in my opinion, just ends up escalating a conflict as opposed to improving the situation. Good deletion call -- Samir 04:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good call. It seems to have effectively constituted an attack page. El_C 04:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Attempting to frustrate the collection of evidence against a rouge Admin will not work. We keep backups off the system. Nice try, but no cigar. --Britcom 06:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to keep anything you want on your own hard drive. But as to what may be kept here, there are some rules to that, including that pages may not be intended as an attack on a specific person. If you have a dispute with someone and can't talk it out with them, we have dispute resolution for exactly that reason. (And if not obvious, I entirely endorse Navou's action.) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify Seraph, the above are attempting to interfere with evidence gathering and compilation that will be used to lodge a complaint against an Admin who has a wide pattern of abuse of his authority. This Admin has a posse of devotees (mainly his own students) who will run interference for him and often try to gang up on anyone who won't tolerate his bad behaviour and abuse of Admin tools. So lets not pretend its about something else. --Britcom 07:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

One would think that for as long as people have been attempting to gather "evidence" against WMC, something would have stuck by now, but it hasn't. . . despite the so-called "wide pattern" of abuse. BTW, how long do we let the personal attacks continue?

Signed,

not now or ever a student of WMC,

also not a "devotee",

just an average editor who thinks this was a good delete,

R. Baley 08:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Pfft! We all know WC has been sanctioned for misconduct before and it will happen again because he doesn't seem to be able control his temper and foolishly leaves behind a permanent record of his abuse on the server. It's highly entertaining reading, it is so entertaining in fact that I am considering writing a book about this guy. I haven't chosen a title yet but someone suggested that I pattern it after the "Idiot's Guide" series. In fact this latest thread will probably end up somewhere in chapter 3. --Britcom 15:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Pfft! We all know that you talk piffle. Just for laughs, can you point out a single one of William's students editing here? --Stephan Schulz 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

(psst... it's a trick question...) Raymond Arritt 17:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason you are commenting on Britcom's commentary and ignoring the guy who got his subpage deleted without notice? I'm trying to be civil, constructive and follow the rules. I'm looking for a way to go forward with what I feel are legitimate issues but if raising issues within the guidelines proves impossible, I might as well salvage what I've got and go elsewhere. So what's it to be? TMLutas 17:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Several uninvolved admins have endorsed the deletion. (I haven't commented on the deletion as I'm indirectly involved.) It may not be the answer you like, but you can't say the matter has been ignored. Raymond Arritt 17:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Cast your eyes to my edit stamped 13:17, 17 September 2007 and you'll see that I'm asking what the proper alternative should have been and it's the lack of answer to that which has prompted me to make these last comments. I'm not particularly married to the sub-page. I'm mostly going for an undelete so I don't have to go through WMC's talk page history to find the diff where he deleted the britcom stuff. In a classy move, WMC has offered to email me the page. What I'm asking for is some sort of guidance to clarify the WP:User exception to the "attack pages" rule (though "attack page" is something of a misnomer in this case, "minor personal negative commentary with lots of quotes" is more accurate). Is this exception a dead letter or is there some sort of formula that would keep a page designed to use the exception from getting deleted? I think it would be a lot of waste of time to dig mediate and mediate again.

Take it out of the context of WMC. The behavior pattern I assert does exist at the very least *could* exist and it would be a significant negative influence on Wikipedia and thus should be sanctioned where it does exist. So how would somebody go about proving the existence of the pattern without getting speedy deleted? It is quite likely that a lot of people would have tried to go head on for sanctions based on individual incidents and failed prior to the pattern being detected which might lead to admins being desensitized to the possibility that something legitimately wrong is going on (nth repetition section headings are a clue but not the only clue possible). TMLutas 18:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, is there any instance where WMC was "sanctioned for misconduct" aside from the revert parole that the ArbCom later withdrew as unnecessary? Aside from that (rather old) business, I don't see anything, and it seems like Britcom is just blowing smoke here. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems like it would be difficult to maintain a list of such sanctions. You might find your page speedy deleted without notice. Britcom seems to be a favorite bone of yours to chew on. That's fine (everybody needs a hobby) but when you don't address substantive issues that I raised prior to your response and *only* Britcom's emotional (and frankly easily slapped down) posts, I do wonder what you're doing. Is what is going on now a problem of rules violations or a tribal thing? Britcom looks tribal to me. I'm not. I'd like a distinction between us kept and not one that he gets responded to while I get ignored. TMLutas 17:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Um...may I suggest a piece of paper, a pen, and a proper encoding system, e.g. English written in the Latin alphabet? While that indeed was a major acomplishment in human development, by now it's fairly standard in most parts of the world. As the section heading suggests, this is not the first such case, and they have all come to the same conclusion. If you have a problem, either discuss it with the user in question, or go to WP:DR. --Stephan Schulz 17:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Um... so why is there an exception to the no attack pages rule in WP:USER? I don't mind a consensus ruling that this should be kept off wikipedia with a change in WP:USER to keep things consistent but I do mind it if the guideline says I can do it but any attempts to actually follow guidelines lead to speedy deletes. Guidelines should not be dead letters or contain dead letter sections. Surely at least a clarification of the rule is in order if you seriously mean what you said. TMLutas 18:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Is that comment directed at me? You don't need to maintain a list of "sanctions"; they should show up on things like block logs, arbitration pages, ANI threads, etc. WMC gets brought up on ANI (and COIN, AN3, and other noticeboards) on a regular basis, and in every instance I'm aware of it turns out that the complaint is frivolous. So it's deceptive to imply that he's been sanctioned on many occasions, as Britcom did.

  As for your subpage, I concur with the deletion. Your note just below indicates that you were using the page as a prod to encourage WMC to "amend his behavior", i.e. you were using the page as a threat of mediation/arbitration. Not cool. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem with a pattern of conduct charge (and I've resigned myself to taking a different tack with WMC long ago so this is a policy discussion for me at this point) is that the evidence for it is scattered all across wikipedia in archives, logs, etc. To make a charge like that stick, you have to gather it all up in one place so that the pattern is clear. There's a guideline in WP:User that lets you do that. Based on some commentary above, it's not exactly clear whether that's a real guideline or a dead letter section that should be pruned. So which is it in your opinion? TMLutas 18:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You're allowed to have a page that collects evidence for an imminent mediation, request for arbitration, or other dispute resolution process. Your now-deleted subpage, however, was going to "eventually" lead to a mediation, and you encouraged other editors to contribute. This suggests that you intended the page as an open-ended forum for complaints about WMC, rather than a rough draft for a dispute resolution process that was to begin within a short timeframe. You even called it an "anti-fan page". This is not what WP:USER allows. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had pages put up for speedy deletion before but I've never had them insta-deleted without a chance to challenge ahead of deletion time. The justification for the page is in WP:User, specifically "Material that can be construed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. An exception is made for evidence compiled within a reasonable time frame to prepare for a dispute resolution process." I was engaged in a reasonably civil discussion with the offending admin (if you have access to the history, you can see where WMC tried to add to the page), there were notices all over the thing that this is a prelude to formal mediation/arbitration and that I hoped that the page would cause him to amend his behavior so that he limited his opposition to my edits in ways that conform to policy and guidelines. That's all I want, not to strip him of his adminship. You all have now added to my list of wants.

I want to know what alternative I have to individually bringing up all the pissant issues until the actual underlying problem is sufficiently exposed, that WMC seems to have a pattern of pushing things beyond the limits of what an admin should do. He's too often living in the grey area where he's getting the "benefit of the doubt" that a well known expert in his field and an admin will naturally get. So he wins on the individual cases (and no doubt deserves to win some of them) but connecting the dots to expose a pattern of behavior isn't allowed because quoting and commenting for the purpose of bringing up a pattern of behavior isn't acceptable to some admins and just gets a G10 speedy delete without adequate notice. So the issue of WMC making up his own private standards on reliable sources needs to go to mediation right away, his pissy comment to me on britcom's scribble on my user page needs to go to mediation, etc., etc. Is this what you're really recommending? TMLutas 13:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• This page is to gather up all the "annoying, probably violates the rules, but not worth fighting over" incidents involving William M. Connolley. Per ArbCom ruling, user space may not be used for laundry lists of grudges. Guy (Help!) 22:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• For transparency, there is a deletion review here so we are not decentralizing discussion. Navou ^banter 22:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Need intervention for User:Skatewalk's disruption of RFCU

I need administrative intervention again with User:Skatewalk. He just came back from a block and started disrupting a CheckUser report I filed. In this link [46], he is deleting critical information which shows that he is very likely the same person as User:Serenesoulnyc. Please keep en eye on the page. — Zerida 05:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Obvious sock, blocked. Neil ム 10:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess it was obvious enough with or without an RFCU. Now let's see how long it takes before he creates his next sock. — Zerida 19:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Stco23

I'm having a little difficulty in getting this user to abide by the fair use policy, concerning image resizing. After I resized Image:LTGC Vol.4.jpg (which is now deleted) from a 1030x1365 pixel image[47] to 220×289 pixel image[48], the user confronted me with [49]. He also appealed to Jimbo for my desysopping[50], and called me an "asshole" for following the "stupid little rule".[51] He then re-uploaded many of the previously deleted images in high resolution.[52]. Could someone have a talk with him, as any further interactions I have with him will likely end in a bloodbath. --D_arkF_alls ^talk 06:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The user was indefinitely blocked. This seems harsh. I've reduced it to a week and given him a final warning. Neil ム 09:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Mass edit warring by User:Digby Tantrum‎

User:Digby Tantrum‎ is engaging in a mass edit war to revert the edits I have made to several images. I have nominated the images for WP:IFD and listed them. However the user is persistent to revert my edits and remove the template repeatedly. I put a warning on his talk page to stop removing the templates however he is repeatedly removing that too. 217.43.58.131 10:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Resolved
  . This frivolous complaint comes from the permanently-banned troll/vandal Learntruck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Sam Blacketer 13:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Page moves by User:Salpetersyra

Resolved

The account User:Salpetersyra has been used exclusively for frivolous page moves to North Korea and United Kingdom. No discussion, no other edits at all. It seems likely this account is a sock puppet. --Reuben 16:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It might help to mention any possible sockpuppets and any evidence for it. Thanks. Tbo ¹⁵⁷(talk) (review) 17:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user knows a sockpuppet - just that it might be the case, possibly because those are the first edits of the user. x42bn6 Talk Mess 17:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I suggested it might be a sock puppet account for three very general reasons: first, a new user might not be expected to jump directly into page moves while avoiding discussion or other edits; second, a new account can't do page moves, so the user presumably knew the rules well enough to know what the requirement is; and third, these are pages that have had substantial dispute over titles in the past, with some users arguing for full formal country names as titles. I can't suggest any particular other users that might be involved, but someone editing United Kingdom might have a better idea. There don't seem to have been arguments over the title of North Korea recently. --Reuben 17:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, hello, people? This guy is obviously a vandal. Northern Iceland, indeed...that part of the world is not controlled by the UK! "per new Wikipedia policy"...come off it. Blocked indef. Moreschi ^Talk 17:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that the user isn't a vandal. Its just that the reporting user mentioned sockpuppets. :) Tbo ¹⁵⁷(talk) (review) 17:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Reuben 17:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Mithraist

Would someone please take a look at the edits of Mithraist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)?

Purportedly new user, no article edits, just trolling.

Is he WP:GAMEing and/or attempting to foment discord?

Thanks for the assistance. -- Fullstop 18:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe... although it is too early to make that assessment. If you have doubts, you can ask him directly. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Check out his user page. :) -- Fullstop 19:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems rather clear that this user is (1) not new, and (2) has only signed on to try reviving a minor conflict between Fullstop and Warlordjohncarter that occurred months ago.

I suspect that this is a reincarnation of User:ParthianShot, who not only had many conflicts with Fullstop but even once created an "investigative" account such as Mithraist to act against Fullstop. The account I refer to is MedianLady (talk · contribs). Both Mithraist and MedianLady seem alike in this devotion to investigative trolling over non-issues to harass Fullstop. ParthianShot was also known to use a now-blacklisted website to launder copyvios onto Wikipedia and to source fringe claims that often exaggerated the supposed role of Mithra in Zoroastrianism. All this is probably not coincidental.

While we could file a checkuser (but the available data may be too old), it shouldn't be necessary anyway since this Mithraist account merits a block for behavior reasons alone. Can an admin help us out with this? Thanks, The Behnam 20:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility is Ashkani (talk · contribs), who is probably Artaxiad (talk · contribs). Ashkani advocated for ParthianShot/MedianLady in that dispute awhile back.

Despite these possibilities, it is quite clearly someone who dug up one of Fullstop's past disputes to harass him about it. Troll SPAs should be blocked, no doubt about that. The Behnam 02:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hoponpop69 is exhibiting troll like behaviour

user:Hoponpop69 has vandalized the glam punk page claiming that it doesn't have correct citations. Meaning that because he thinks that the citations are not right that the article should be deleted. He has deleted the majority of the article several times without any discussion on the glam punk talk page.

Also, user:Hoponpop69 has put over SIXTY citation notices in the deathrock page, claiming that he can delete the article if he wants if people don't cite everything he wants cited. This has also been done without discussion on his part in the talk section of that page. If he had discussed why he put the citation notices on the page then I wouldn't have a problem, however he has not. He just keeps saying that nobody can delete his citation notices, and that he can delete artciles if he wishes if they don't conform to what HE thinks should be cited. I edited the citations because he put the requests up to SIX times in one sentence, which was over-kill to say the least. Now he tells me that if I don't like the way that he has done things that I should report him, which is why I am posting all of this here.

He has been suspended several times in the past for the same behaviour, and he should not be allowed to behave in such a manner. I thought that Wiki was all about discussing changes in articles, not about wholesale deletion of them.Crescentia 19:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, he's not an admin so has no power to delete articles altogether — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• "He just keeps saying that nobody can delete his citation notices, and that he can delete artciles if he wishes if they don't conform to what HE thinks should be cited."

I never said I could delete articles that don't conform to what I think. I said that I can delete content that is unsourced. Which I have the right to do per [Wikipedia:Citing sources]. Hoponpop69 19:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You said QUOTE:'I could just remove all this content if I wanted to, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and giving a chance for people to find sources.' . You are basically stating that you could remove the entire article if you wish, which you do not have the right to do.Crescentia 19:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me for intruding, but he actually can delete any unsourced information per WP:CS, as mentioned above. All users have the right to remove unsourced comment and nominate poorly-sourced articles for deletion. There's no violation here on that part. Now, looking at the page, it is apparent that he was excessive. Hoponpop69, just because you have the right to doesn't mean that you should agonize everyone about it. True, the article needs sourcing, but putting a citation needed message after every other phrase is disruptive at the very least. Are you perhaps trying to make a point about something? You Can't Review Me!!! 19:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to make any point, I'm doing this because a.) I don't want false information or original research on wikipedia, and b.) I have seen other articles get cleaned up this way. This is the post-hardcore article before I deleted what became unsourced content.[53] Compare that to the current state of the article in which every single fact is sourced.

Hoponpop69 20:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

That article has a factual dispute tag so that is not a very good example.Crescentia 20:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I still think that your citation messages were a bit excessive on Deathrock, however. They don't need to go after every word if nearby facts lacking citations are related in some way. For example:

Deathrock (also spelled death rock) is a term used to identify a subgenre of punk rock and Goth which incorporates elements of horror and spooky atmospheres within a Goth-Punk style and first emerged most prominently in the West Coast of the United States and London during the late 1970s and early 1980s.

...can probably be simplified to:

Deathrock (also spelled death rock) is a term used to identify a subgenre of punk rock and Goth which incorporates elements of horror and spooky atmospheres within a Goth-Punk style and first emerged most prominently in the West Coast of the United States and London during the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Perhaps that amount of citation tags can be reduced further; to be honest, I've never seen more than two citation tags in a single sentence before. This becomes especially noteworthy when you come to sentences such as:

Other rock and glam rock bands who influenced many early goth/deathrock artists include The Doors, David Bowie, The Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop and the Stooges, the Cramps, T. Rex, New York Dolls, The Damned, MC5, and Richard Hell and the Voidoids.

...which can be simplified to:

Other rock and glam rock bands who influenced many early goth/deathrock artists include The Doors, David Bowie, The Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop and the Stooges, the Cramps, T. Rex, New York Dolls, The Damned, MC5, and Richard Hell and the Voidoids.

That one flag should make it obvious to editors that the entire list of things need citations and also makes it possible for an editor to cite all of them with a single reference if necessary. You Can't Review Me!!! 20:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes I meant exactly what I said, that I could remove all the uncited content if I wanted to (which is backed up by a wikipolicy). You are making huge inferences by stating that I said I could delete the article. Hoponpop69 19:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Normally people discuss the removal of unsourced material. Why are you refusing to do this, and why are you being hostile towards compromising? Before you started this deathrock page 'cite' war you had even edited the article, so I don't understand why you are so wrapped up in it.Crescentia 19:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I've never seen a discusion over the removal of unsourced material, as far as I know it's fair game ot remove (again I'm basing this on wikipolicy). I'm wrapped up in this because I like articles that don't have original research or false information. Hoponpop69 20:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ha has now made THREE of the same edits to the deathrock page in a 24 hour period. One more time and he should be suspended.Crescentia 20:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I am going to convert the citation tags to the end of the sentence. Hoponpop, please feel free to list areas on the talk page you wish to have cited. 3+ citation tags for each sentence is a bit much, however I see why you felt the need to do it. I cleaned up alot of the tagging. Someone please point Hoponpop to how to use sectional requests for citations. I know there is a tempalte that requests tags for entire sections, that would prevent the over tagging.--SevenOfDiamonds 20:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

As stated below, Hoponpop69 is trolling several articles in this manner; before he blanked 9/10ths of articles (including ones which 7+ sources as shown below) without instead adding citation tags, now hes overkilling citation tags for non contentious material on the deathrock article (such as putting around ten tags in each sentence) because he is bored and can't think of anything useful to contribute. He just seems to be antagonising Crescentia without any reason at all. - The Daddy 00:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I previously cleaned up the tagging but he reverted all of it back again. Hopefully he will listen to you.Crescentia 02:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Crescentia refuses to follow policies, continues to delete citation requests, and restore uncited information

User:Crescentia is refusing to follow wikipedia policies. When I remove uncited information, this user just adds it back up.[54][55] I point out that Wikipedia:Citing sources states: "Any material that is challenged and for which no source is provided may be removed by any editor." But he ignores this. When I add citation requests this user removes them. He then states an unwritten law that I can't have more than one request per sentence, but when asked to prove such a thing can not.[56] I tell him that according to Wikipedia:When to cite, any editor has the right to challenge unsourced material by opening a discussion on the talk page or by tagging it, and he ignores this. All I have been doing is following wikipedia policies, while he is blatantly ignoring them. Hoponpop69 19:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Also based on the section he filled out above this, you can add false accusation of vandalism to the charges.Hoponpop69 19:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

When you find yourself adding literally dozens of tags to a given section, it's time to consider a {{sources}} tag instead. --Haemo 19:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The sources tag says "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed." so that would just bring it back to square one of challenging the material. Hoponpop69 19:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally, when you remove content, and, someone else puts it back, that's a STRONG hint, that you need to discuss it. WP:CS is not a license to edit war. SQL^{(Query Me!)} 20:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

So he's not even getting a slap on the wrist for restoring uncited content? Give me a break. Hoponpop69 23:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I could complain about you not getting in trouble also, but I am more adult than that. Hopefully you have learned something after all of this.Crescentia 02:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hoponpop69 has been on a trolling spree, blanking 9/10ths of numerous articles, including parts which have sources. Look at this article for example, (he removed most of the article and 7 sources) its not the only one either. He seems to think Wikipedia is a toy or something. - The Daddy 00:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• What credence do you have? You've been blocked 26 times. I'm getting sick and tired of you calling me a troll when based on Wikipedia:What is a troll? that is not a case. In fact if anyone is at fault here is is you for stalking me.Hoponpop69 02:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

How is he stalking you? He has run into the same problem with you as I have so he feels the need to speak up about it.Crescentia 02:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

And another thing, I'm pretty angry about you taking edits out of content to make it look like I am a vandal. If you look at the glam punk articles history page, you can see in my edit summaries that any sources that are removed are because they did not relate to what was in the article.[57] Hoponpop69 02:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You removed sections that had citations, and you didn't explain on the talk page why you did so. That is vandalism. If you would actually take the time to talk to people on talk pages then most of the problems that you are having at the moment wouldn't be occuring.Crescentia 02:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I just said, I explained the edit in the edit summary, you can find the reasoning there. In the future I will use both the talk page and edit summary since it seems most people just read one or the other. Hoponpop69 02:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

And I'll man up and apologize for the give me a break comment. Hoponpop69 02:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

User: Saoirsegodeohf

Hy, I hereby wish to report again (see above) Saoirsegodeohf (talk • contribs) for POVPUSHING, 3RR and disruptive editing and pushing against consensus (?). Basically this User sees himself as a champion/avenger of the Irish and objects to the use of British Isles in several articles. A compromise offered by a neutral party was simply ignored by Saoirsegodeohf. Genuine edits by this user are non-existing. This user is a repeat offender who has been has been blocked yesterday, and was recently warned of the consequences of his behavior. I also want to add that he changed this very same page into implying that I have Anti-Irish feelings; a notion that is beyond my ability to understand and completely false. I think that this case is crystal-clear as one only needs to look at his edits Thanks Flamarande 19:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

He's violated WP:3RR in the last 24 hours on Western Europe, in addition to being patently incivil. As he's clearly aware of how things work on Wikipedia and has already been blocked, I'm going to give him a 48-hour block. Walton^One 19:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Example of incivility: "yes you are a ballbag". Walton^One 20:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact that diff is the one that got Saoirsegodeohf blocked yesterday. I've advised Flamarande to RFC the dispute to establish consensus. Saoirsegodeohf hasn't actually pushed against consensus yet. I'm now going to recommend that Flamarande follow the next step in dispute resolution - disengage for a while - give it a day or two (in this case maybe a week since Saoirsegodeohf is 48 hour blocked) and look at the situation afresh. If the problem continues follow WP:DR--Cailil ^talk 21:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

IP-user 168.103.242.198 blanking that IP's talkpage, etc.

The anonymous-IP user of 168.103.242.198 has been causing trouble, and has been warned about this many times at User talk:168.103.242.198. The user of that IP has now begun blanking said talkpage, eliminating the warnings from its face, and has even given a "vandalism" warning" to one user who has restored the page.
It seems to me that IP pages must be "public", not "private" space in WP, so that there is no right to delete warnings and other material from IP-user pages, as there ordinarily is for registered users within their own user-space. It would follow that the talkpage blankings are vandalism.
In any case, the edit-history of this IP shows that it has generally been a source of no more than silly vandalism. Perhaps this report belongs on the vandal-reports page, then, but I am not sure whether the talkpage blankings, which are the foremost concern at present, exactly qualify as vandalism, so I'm putting the here.
-- Lonewolf BC 20:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have stopped yesterday. I'll keep an eye on it, but, once an IP has stopped, there's not usually very much that can be done. SQL^{(Query Me!)} 20:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Editors can blank their own user talk space. This also indicates that the warnings have been seen. Durova^Charge! 20:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

From what I have always interpreted WP:USER, IP talk pages are different because there is no automatic acknowledgment of the message upon removal, as the IP can be used by many, many editors. -- Avi 20:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be a common area of misunderstanding, and I think some clarification is in order. The question is, though, where and how can it be done? Many editors don't know where to look for guidelines and information on this sort of thing, which implies that somewhere on the Edit page might be best. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 21:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Borderline BLP question at Talk:Mousepad

• 68.164.150.65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 68.164.234.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 68.164.237.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 69.3.133.80 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There's a long-running dispute on who invented the Mousepad. An IP editor (who may be Fernandez) claims credit for it, citing a document dated years after the fact. He accuses the currently-credited inventor Kelley (three sources, not very reliable) of plagiarising his invention, and provides no sources to back that claim.

The article itself is semi-protected after a recent ANI incident (edit-warring over this same issue) so the only problem is what's on the Talk page.

I don't know if this is strong enough to be a BLP issue but having raised the issue I thought it was better to play it safe and remove the material. With this revert, the anon editor restores multiple accusations of plagiarism. I have reverted once, but don't want to edit war. Admin advice or assistance would be appreciated.

Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 21:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a borderline WP:BLP violation, it is a definate WP:BLP violation. The anonymous 'contributor' was given more than enough time and chances to come up with reliable sources for the accusations in question, and the only results amounted to abuse and further (or rehashed) unfounded accusations. I closed the RFC as soon as I had full confirmation that the editor wasn't attempting to address the issue - either he had trouble understanding what was asked or he was trolling, and the unacceptable material doesn't belong in either case. --Sigma 7 00:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Editor on blanking spree on multiple pages

Can someone look into this? User:Gnanapiti is blanking whole bunch of paragraphs, sections, links claiming WP:OR, WP:NOT and WP:SOAPBOX

here and here in Sethusamudram page and

here and here in M. Karunanidhi page

here and here and here in Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazagham page Anwar 21:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

So far, everything I have seen looks legit. This is clearly a removal of POV. This definitely looks like removal of soapboxing/POV. I did not further investigate the allegations of "fake references" mentioned in some edit summaries, but nothing I have seen would make me assume they are anything but good faith constructive editing. Sometimes the best and fastest way to fix an article is just wholesale removal of policy violating content. Mr.Z-man 21:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Mr.Z-man. This appears to be a case of a user stringently following/enforcing the rules. I really don't see a problem with that. If proper sources can be found for some of the claims, the removed material is easily found in the edit history of the page for reference. Vassyana 23:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The first appears to be fairly legit; putting in a giant disclaimer that says "your religion is wrong" seems a bit wrongheaded. The second, I'm not so sure - unless it really was a faux reference. The third is too long for me to care about - that's your issue. I would say this is no more than an edit war, though, at the moment. The Evil Spartan 00:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hack job?

WikiSpaceboy was recently idnef. blocked for page move vandalism. However, looking back into his contribs, he made good edits before today. He was apparently inactive for quite a bit. I suspect a hacker in the works. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 23:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe someone could contact them at this Eragon wiki? Appears to be the same user, check the history of User:WikiSpaceboy. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

"Something odd"

A couple of days ago, I was contacted by Acalamari regarding some questionable edits by AntiFairyBot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), starting with the likely username violation and ending with the creation of a vandalism-only account, The Disco Times (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and this charming note. Both were quickly indefblocked, but Acalamari called my attention to some peculiar behavior from Squilliam Fancyson (talk · contribs), the creator of AntiFairyBot. Shortly before creating the account, Squilliam added an empty self-nom to WP:RFA, which was followed by a malformed flag request. AntiFairyBot then created and RfA for itself, which was subsequently deleted by Acalamari. Squilliam then made some seemingly normal edits (although bordering 3RR) and hasn't been active since.

If anyone's still following me, my gut says Squilliam Fancyson's account has been compromised or, worse, is simply being used for vandalism; I cannot but find this an odd first edit. Anyway, I've left them a note and have foregone a block at the moment. I'd appreciate further opinions, or a firm readjustment if necessary :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Could someone start handing out blocks...

The edit warring is starting to get to me: within about 2 minutes after The eXile was unprotected, these two started right back up. To be honest, the IP's claim that there is a BLP violation is pretty flimsy IMHO (it is well sourced), but I'm not going to get in the muck with these guys anymore, at least at this level. This has been going on for almost a month. The Evil Spartan 00:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the issue but at least for now I've protected the article for another 48 hours. Pascal.Tesson 02:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Daddy Kindsoul has violated his revert parole

Under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Deathrocker User: Daddy Kindsoul was limited to one revert per day, 2 per week and 3 per month per article. In the past week (September 10-17) he has reverted the NOFX page three times.[58][59][60] Hoponpop69 02:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

user:ElinorD reverting on SlimVirgin's talk page

I'm done with this before I get into trouble. Can someone take a look at this? user:ElinorD reverted, I restored, three times each, with not the nicest edit summaries. Seem's to me user:ElinorD is out of bounds, but I'll leave it to you. Jd2718 02:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)