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Removal from List

I would like to think User:Primefac for having the dignity, grace, and courtesy to reverse the decision to remove User:Legacypac from the list of AFC reviewers. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I still have serious concerns about Legacypac's frivolous attitude that questionable drafts should be moved to article space for AFD. That has nothing to do with the removal, which has correctly been reversed, but I am still deeply concerned by Legacypac's attitude, but think that they should be back reviewing (and they are). Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I still want to see a rewording of the decline template. That has nothing to do with whether Legacypac should be a reviewer. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

See #AFC submission template. I'm pretty sure we're 90% of the way there. Might be worth revisiting the decline reasons themselves soon. Primefac (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't yet reviewed Legacypac's complicated history. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Primefac. You reconsidered your actions for the wiser and better course. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not taking any sides here but I do thank Primefac for having graciously reconsidered. What concerns me most however is that this entire discussion demonstrates once more just how dysfunctional AfC is and how disparate the reviewing criteria are. This is a social issue and not one that any amount of software enhancement could improve. If this were NPR, it would be almost impossible for someone to lose their rights (I've tried but been shouted down) and there aren't discussions there like these about Legacypac, for example, nor is it even common for a NP Reviewer to be required to take a trip to ANI where eventually a T-ban might be pronounced. In the absence of any structured coordination of AfC Primefac does his best to hold things together, while I am sure Legacypac's work is without doubt nevertheless extremely valuable. Personally, I think all users should be given a canned warning first and then be given the courtesy of knowing when they are being discussed, and that transparency be maintained - it's what we do elsewhere. Please let's not allow AfC to become a ducking stool or a kangaroo court, and remember that AfC as a WikiProject still has no user rights founded in policy. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Primefac, good decision and you gained my much respect from taking back such a thing, seconded all the comments. --Quek157 (talk) 16:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

By Wikipedia standards there was also a lot of compassion and respect shown by and to other AfC project members in that discussion. Thanks everyone and of course that includes you too Primefac. ~Kvng (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree that Primefac handled this gracefully, and hope that he and Legacypac can work together moving forward. Both are valued users in this area whom I respect. TonyBallioni (talk) 11:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving Drafts to Mainspace to Consider Deletion ?

If there is a different place where this discussion should be held, please advise me. I think that the principal objective of Articles for Creation is to support Draft space as a temporary place where pages can be worked on with the eventual objective of promoting them into article space. At the same time, I think that some pages in draft space, although they may be submitted once or repeatedly for review, will never be suitable for article space. We can probably agree on that.

I think that drafts should be moved (promoted) to article space when they are ready for article space, and that is usually defined as meaning that they will probably survive an AFD discussion, or, better yet, that they won’t get taken to AFD.

My question is: Should drafts ever be moved to article space when they are not ready for article space, in order to face CSD or AFD? Maybe I have misunderstood, but I have read at least one editor as sometimes saying that drafts should be moved to article space in order to have a deletion discussion. I personally think that is a terrible idea, and that draft space is a better place for questionable pages than article space. I am aware that there are unresolved disagreements about when drafts should be deleted, but I personally don’t see that they should ever be moved to article space unless the reason is that they belong in article space.

Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

imo never, just strengthen the mfd process is enough. or just let time pass for G13. Quek157 (talk) 10:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I was under the impression that we do not nominate drafts for deletion under notability criteria. I see no reason to move them anywhere if they are not ready. Maybe instaure a deletion criteria of x declines or a g13 in time. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• If an article is definitely not ready for article space then it should be declined. However, from the previous arguments it appears to be just certain types of cases that are causing issues, the ones I've noticed:

• Firstly the one that appears to be the main issue in the past: left over articles in user space - there already appears to be a policy WP:STALEDRAFT that covers 8 options in total. I haven't seen a reason why those options aren't enough? There is also MfD, and if that fails and no one shows any interest in taking on just blank and tag {{Userpage blanked}} this effectively removes it, but allows the users to easily restart if every they desire. Also the conclusion to this RFC B3. Should it be permissible to move userspace drafts which do not meet article content standards to mainspace in order to seek deletion? - Consensus is clearly no. would make it clear for this has been decided on.
• Secondly the articles that keep getting submitted and declined, not improving and wasting our time: These can be taken to MfD, but I understand some do not like this, so an alternative would be to have a template to inform the submitter that it is no longer suitable to be re-submitted and they have three options: move themselves to main space; {{db-self}}; and should not resubmit to AfC and doing so could be treated as disruptive behaviour. This could also be used if taken to MfD and fails, it's just a declaration it's no longer deemed suitable for the AfC process.

The {{NSFW}} template can be used. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thirdly the ones I care about most the ones stuck for weeks/months not being reviewed because they are borderline, or unclear. As I suggested in the "best practice" thread above have a new template that tell the submitter "It's been deemed unclear if this article meets guidelines, if you would like it to be accepted understanding that it may be challenged/deleted please say so, or move yourself, or you can continue to wait". It only seams fair when we are failing to make a call either way, that we make it clear to submitters their options.

The idea of giving an author the option of requesting that a draft be taken to article space, knowing that AFD is available, is a good idea. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I've missed something, but with MfD and WP:STALEDRAFT the only thing I think is missing is making it clearer to users what options they have, and when 'we' either think a draft will never pass or it's unclear. KylieTastic (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Drafts should only be moved to mainspace by AfC reviewers if they are deemed by the reviewer to be WP:LIKELY to survive AfD. As you can see, the definition of likely (and unlikely) is 50%. I personally interpret this to mean that it is acceptable to move borderline articles to mainspace. Doing so helps me keep in touch with how AfD works. How readily to marginal articles get nominated? What sort of delete and keep arguments are working? If you don't have AfD experience, you can't do a good job with the difficult reviews at AfC. ~Kvng (talk) 15:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Totally agree with Kvng. AFC reviewers should have AFD experience to know how a battleground there can be at times. Deletion cause nerves but discussion will be better. --Quek157 (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been applying a standard of "almost certain to avoid AfD" only because I have enemies that want to remove my ability to edit. Even then I recently lost an accept at AfD on an Order of Canada receipient that meets WP:ANYBIO #1. On the flip side I've failed to get pages I think are total crap deleted at AfD. I support the stated "likely to survive AfD" standard. AfC should try to help editors but some don't want or will not accept help and should experience mainspace rules. Some pages we just can't predict what will happen if taken to AfD and that is ok. We should not be a block against truly debatable pages being tested in mainspace. We should facilitate the inclusion of the good and stop the clearly unsuitable pages as best we can, but not try to be one person AfD decision makers. Legacypac (talk) 03:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

One of the last things we should ever be doing is encouraging AFC draft submitters to move the page into mainspace themselves without a review. Sure, it's technologically possible for them to do so, but it defeats the entire purpose of having AFC at all and is not an option we should be telling people is on the menu — anybody who thinks they're actually allowed to do that is just going to do it even if the page is nowhere near mainspace-acceptable. Bearcat (talk) 00:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree 100% with Robert McClenon's notion that moving drafts to mainspace in order to have a deletion discussion is a terrible idea. No reviewer should move a page to mainspace that is not ready for mainspace -- in other words, if it is not ready to to found by readers who come here seeking "accepted knowledge". I do not think people who submit drafts should be encouraged to move articles to mainspace themselves. Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with User:Jytdog with one clarification. I have occasionally told a submitter that they can move their draft to mainspace, but only as "if you insist", with submitters who argue with my advice (and possibly that of other reviewers) that a draft is not ready for article space, "You have the right to move your draft to article space yourself and take your chances on an AFD discussion." It is less troublesome to tell the submitter to go ahead and move it themselves than to continue to talking to a brick wall. For a reviewer to move a draft to article space for any reason other than because they judge it to be ready for article space is a terrible idea. For a reviewer to tell a stubborn submitter to go ahead and move it and take their chances is occasionally in order. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

With the exception of paid editors as per WP:PAID ?

I reckon that is what he means.  :) Robert thanks for your clarification. A thought. This is a volunteer project, but everybody has to follow the policies and guidelines. Per the AfC guidelines, a) not to move stuff that isn't ready, and b) to be reasonably kind to the new editors submitting drafts. The interesting thing is where the obligation to be kind and keep interacting with new editors, ends... and how to exit, when the conversation is going no where and the draft is not really deletable. Nobody is ever obligated to keep working on anything. So how do folks exit when you have had enough? Options:

Just walk away: (JWA), saying nothing or saying something like "I've given all the time to this that I feel is reasonable, and I am going to do other things now. Someone else will come along eventually. I do hope you take my advice on board if you choose to resubmit, as the next person will likely say the same thing"

Take your chances (JWA+TYC): just say same as above, and add "You can move it to mainspace if you insist, but please understand that it is likely to be deleted"

Roll up your sleeves (RUYS) and take it the last mile, and move it to mainspace when you are done, would be a third option.

Which of those do folks do? Others? If you do TYC and the person does move it, do you then nominate it for deletion, or have you washed your hands of the matter? (which is completely fine, i am just asking). Jytdog (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Daniel Liam Glyn

I'm requesting a third opinion on Draft:Daniel Liam Glyn. Do you think he is notable enough? L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and also an IP suggested that that AFCH put decline and AFC comment templates at the bottom. What would you think about that? L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I think all AfC comments and templates belong on the Talkpage like how the rest of Wikipedia works. The current system dates to when AfC submissions were project subpages without their own talkpages. Legacypac (talk) 13:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: no, I was talking about the AFC templates placed on the draft. L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

So am I. The Draft should be kept clean to work on without scrolling past AfF templates and the Draft talkpage should be used instead. Then when we accept we leave our comments there. Legacypac (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The talkpage makes sense for consistency with the rest of Wikipedia. My only concern would be how to effectively point new users to the talkpage. I'd like to see something remain on the drafts page acting as a pointer to the talk page. Tazerdadog (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The talkpage of every page you create is watchlisted. The message sent to usertalk would also point them to Draft talk. Legacypac (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it is implausable to expect most very new users to understand how their watchlist works. The user talk message might get there, but I would think a lot of newbies will check their draft page directly, possibly whole not logged in. Having something there to link New users to the talk page seems valuable. This can be as simple as a one line template at the top of the article saying that it was declined and linking to the talk page to encourage discussion there. Tazerdadog (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Tazerdadog. The simplicity of keeping it on one page for new editors is more important than consistency. ~Kvng (talk) 17:47, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@L293D: the notability case based on the provided sources ([1], [2], [3], [4]) is strong enough that I would give it a better than 50% chance of surviving AfC. I was not able to find additional sources. I see that you have declined indicating the sources were not reliable. What did you find lacking? ~Kvng (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Kvng: well the fact that many people are deleted for failing NPERSON even with some RS. The person in the draft appears to be just one more run-of-the-mill composer. L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Is there now a case for deleting a sourced biography on a subject that meets WP:GNG? I didn't get that memo. ~Kvng (talk) 04:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

3 week backlog!

Yah happy days. Now let's cut it somemore. Legacypac (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• Pity it only lasted a very short time, but 4 weeks is still way better than it's been in ages - well done to all those hitting the old ones and getting this done. KylieTastic (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

We can hold it under 4 weeks especially with all the new reviewers coming on. We were even under 1000 for a little bit. Legacypac (talk) 23:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Schools

@Legacypac, DGG, and Northamerica1000: I've never nominated an article that has been accepted at AfC for deletion but I think that's about to change, unless I've missed something? On what basis do Westcliff School of Skills and Clifton College (Botswana) meet WP:NCORP, and how did we come to accept the latter given the obvious WP:PROMO? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I accepted Westcliff on the basis it is not promotional just factual and backed up by sources. It is just a specilized government run school with a 65 year history. If you look at the box below evidently every school in the district has a page (and this one should be added to the nav box) so adding this school simply allows us complete coverage of the topic. In some districts all school pages are rolled together, whch is fine but not done here. A school district is an inhabited place and autonotable. I see absolutely no harm in cataloging public infrastructure. Legacypac (talk) 19:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and nominated this article for deletion. In my assessment of the sources, none of them meet the criteria defined in WP:NCORP. Being a 65-year old school does not infer notability, and Wikipedia isn't about everything. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

For the second school compare List of schools in Botswana Looks like an over enthusiastic student effort that could be trimmed down. I'm way more concerned with business and non-notable individual spam than people with school spirit. Legacypac (talk) 20:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: sounds like you're advocating WP:Other stuff exists as the reason for inclusion? It sounds like you're applying your own notability criteria? And are you advocating that any student should be able to publish promo and we'd accept it at AfC? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I said what I mean and no more. There is no rule against covering schools. Legacypac (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer: the flip side of WP:OTHERSTUFF is that if you think Clifton College (Botswana) needs to be deleted, you should probably also nominate any others eligible in List of schools in Botswana too as a group. ~Kvng (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

• The age-old problems with folks who are head over heels with schools.If Clifton College (Botswana) was on any other damn topic DGG would've G11ed it.~ Winged Blades^Godric 01:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
• And, DGG, however much you may feel that all schools are de-facto notable, at-least a basic level of cleanup or tagging ought be executed, before introducing such outright spams into mainspace.~ Winged Blades^Godric 01:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

DGG has a valid position. If Winged Blades of Godric thinks the articles need to be flagged, then he might better try asking nicely or taking the initiative to do tag bombing runs himself. There is nothing that requires stuff coming out of AfC to be pretty, it just needs to be keepable. ~Kvng (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Kvng: even if the reviewer considered the subject notable, it should have surely been declined as WP:NOTPROMO using the "This submission appears to read more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a neutral point of view" reason provided by the helper script, putting the onus back on the author to clean it up. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The criterion for passing AfC is being likely to pass AfD. It is not whether the subject actually is or ought to be notable. On subjects where the criteria at AFD are unclear or disputed, there can be no unambiguous way of predicting. When in doubt, the issue must be left for AfD to decide -- I have sometimes even accepted and immediately brought the afd myself. No one reviewer at AfC should substitute himself for the community, and AFD is where the community makes the decisions. If something will probably pass, a reviewer has no business declining it because they think it ought not to pass. At least 90% of school articles brought to AfD even this year still pass, so there is no other valid choice at AfC than to accept them.

That said, I should have cleaned up Clifton College somewhat further, and I have just done a little. I seem to have been doing just what I often blame other people for, trying to deal with a backlog by going too fast. Nobody's immune to that, and I just as everyone else sometimes need a reminder. DGG ( talk ) 05:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

If it will not be deleted at AfD or by CSD we have no business complaining about fixable issues. There are but a few AfF reviewers and even fewer willing to make tough calls - but an army of interested editors in mainspace who will fix, tag, cleanup, and expand or condense pages. New pages don't need to be perfect. Legacypac (talk) 23:51, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

DGG, thanks for your reply:) My stand on the issue of schools have been pretty firm and that is to treat them as equivalents of normal establishments, without any premises of default-notability.That hardly means that the bevy of AfD participants in these discussions, (who are largely constant w.r.t the two sides) agrees with my take and as DGG notes, a majority of the schools are kept which means that while I am compelled to accept such AfC sumbissions, I may choose to !vote for deletion, shall it ever land up at AFD.~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

My view is not specifically about schools. There are many things that some of us consider important, and others not. In order to have an encyclopedia at all, rather than a debating society, we need to have some agreement about how to handle each of these. We could do in many ways, such as by voting, but instead we settle this and many other debates by the concept of consensus. Consensus does not meet having a debate, and adopting whichever view predominates by either logic or arbitrary decision or selection by a decider. Consensus means finding a solution that everyone of good will can live with. This means compromise. The rational way to compromise for broad questions of how much coverage we should give to the various individual conceptions of what is important to an encyclopedia, is to defer to each other. I am, for example, of the firm opinion that having detailed coverage for some forms of so-called entertainment is not just worthless, but harmful to the purposes of an encyclopedia by showing distorted priorities. I do not try to remove them, or even engage in debates about individual articles in this group with the hope of trying to even slightly decrease coverage. I let those interested have their area, and in turn expect comparable treatment. Compromise is also the way to handle smaller questions: since we disagree about covering schools, we had and I hope still have a compromise to divide them by level, and cover one but not the other.

If we did want to have a debating society, that's something different. I might well choose to engage in such a project, as I enjoy the sport & think I'm rather good at it. It furthermore has the positive value of improving the mind, just as some sports improve the body. But the concept of sport is that one does it for play, not for the things of life that one really cares about. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Nothing as to the above locus allows for accepting blatant spams and introducing them to mainspace.And, I am afraid that if Legacypac's belief to the contrary affects his workflow, that' s not likely to be much beneficial, in the long run.~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not accept blatant SPAM - my point was more nuanced. Legacypac (talk) 14:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Script bug?

Is anybody else having problems with the AFCH script sometimes failing to actually do anything when you click on the "Accept", "Decline" or "Comment" buttons on a pending draft? Or is it just my computer being difficult for no apparent reason? Bearcat (talk) 00:34, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I just reviewed Draft:National Business Crime Centre with no apparent problems Tazerdadog (talk) 04:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I have seen over the last 36 hours or so erratic misbehavior, where actions have been incomplete, such as not transferring the actual deletion reason to the user talk page or in sometimes even the article, and especially in not delaing properly with multiple reasons. It look very much like a slow script response., but I'm no expert. DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I've had the same problem once or twice but when I refreshed it seems to done it anyway. Dom from Paris (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Script is working fine for me. L293D (☎ • ✎) 23:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Food Network Star (Season 14)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Please create Food Network Star (Season 14), as that is an upcoming series being aired on the Food Network in the United States and Canada - (101.98.104.241 (talk) 10:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC))

This is not the place to request articles (that's WP:RA). Primefac (talk) 11:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirects

I want to open a new question. Why do we decline submitted draft articles on the basis that what is submitted is a redirect?. Why do we not simply move them to the proper part of the project for considering redirects? Declining it discourages a good faith contributor on the basis of not understanding an arbitrary technical separation in the way we've set up a complicated process--it accomplished nothing positive. DGG ( talk ) 01:43, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Having recently gone through all of the accepts for Jan-Apr, I saw a lot of accepted redirects. Is this really an issue? I do note that Category:AfC submissions declined as a redirect has 90 drafts in it, but I haven't looked to see when they were submitted or who declined them. Primefac (talk) 12:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we wouldn't simply accept them, as redirects are cheap. The only issues are when the redirect isn't suitible; or hard to judge, in which case pass on to the relevent team. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I must admit it confused me when I saw others reject them and then I noticed the AFCH option for it, but I assumed it was "policy" and have just gone with the flow. I had guessed the reason was that on Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects you have to give a reason, but drafts tend to just have the redirect with no reason. If it's obvious I would think accepting is fine, if not reject and send them to Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects to give a reason? KylieTastic (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

AfC/Redirects is part of our project. Who cares which box someone drops the request, if it makes a good redirect just create it. I'll go check declined as a redirect category ans see if we need to create some out of it. Legacypac (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Women in Red June editathons

		Welcome to Women in Red's June 2018 worldwide online editathons. New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/79|WiR Loves Pride]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/80|Singers and Songwriters]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/81|Women in GLAM]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/82|Geofocus: Russia/USSR]] Continuing: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/00|#1day1woman Global Initiative]]
		(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language mailing list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list)

--Ipigott (talk) 06:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

VJ Lokesh

can anyone help me out to create vj lokesh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soniyavelliangiri (talk • contribs) 07:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Biggest piece of advice I can give you: You need sources that are about VJ Lokesh, not just videos of stuff he's in. We don't need you to prove that VJ Lokesh exists, we need you to prove that he's a notable person. That means you need sources that were not created by VJ or the television stations he's worked for, sources that talk about VJ or his work. These could be magazine or newspaper reviews of his work, whether in print or online. Other sources are possible as well. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Quint Buchholz

This has been around forever and declined 5 times. However reviewers say it is really close. Can this be passd to mainspace to test it? We should not be holding back pages that are likely ok. Legacypac (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

If the author wants to fight the lions of mainspace who are we to oppose it. If you don't think it's ready, include a note on the Talk page about why it was promoted over objections. Hasteur (talk) 01:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, there are occasions where I accept something that's borderline, and I leave a talk page message to say why I'm on the fence (usually to imply that it passing AFC was not a rubber-stamp for it's guaranteed notability). Primefac (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• It's looks like a borderline accept - I looked for more sources to help it but failed. So as the options come down to decline again and hold here as we arn't sure, or accept and give it a fighting chance I agree give it a chance. The only caveat I would add would be if the submitter User:Julietta17 or User:Quibu as the main contributor (possibly the same person?) say that they don't want us to accept it if we don't feel it has a good chance of surviving an AfD. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The submitter evidently wants it in mainspace given they have submitted it to AfC so many times. Legacypac (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I accepted it after removing a bunch of unsourced statements. I know it's borderline, so feel free to revert me or take it to AfD if you disagree. Bradv 04:39, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

MINREF again

I know we discussed something like this in 2014, it's possible I've missed other discussions since.

I see the reviewing guidelines as contradicting themselves in at least one situation. Here's a key example, that I tried to explain to a confused long-term non-AfC aware editor recently.

In one place, we write: "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace."

In another, we have, both in our workflow diagram, and alluded to in other places, a suggestion that drafts should be declined for failing MINREF.

These two bits of advice give different results for an article that *could*, but does not currently, have in-line citations for quotes of controversial material, but for which such citations could be found. Working years at AFD I have never seen an article deleted for MINREF when such references weren't in-line, but where known to the discussion participants.

I've been largely working to the workflow diagram, which seems to be in line the 2014 discussion, but is there a more recent consensus on how to resolve this? --joe decker^talk 22:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've suggested before that we should have hard decline (not notable/not encyclopedic/100% copyvio &c) vs soft decline (major flaws but fixable). Espresso Addict (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The current situation does make for some odd accept/declines. I've just accepted the somewhat borderline Bryn Williams-Jones but found myself having to reject the absolutely bomb-proof Draft:Eric Block. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:47, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I don't see it as a contradiction per se, rather just being an oversimplification as these summary statements often are (and have to be). Maybe it should be changed to "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace, unless they fail minimal inline citations guild-lines"? Are there any other caveats or is it just this one?

For articles that fail WP:MINREF if they do not require those parts to meet the notability then it should just be made clear to the submitter they can either source or remove the items to get it accepted. Although if it was accepted, someone would likely come along and do that anyway for them, so the result is the same. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 17:13, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The other option would be to stubify. Find a draft that's definitely about a notable person, but there are four sections of unsourced information? Remove those sections and approve. This does mean that the creator could come back and re-add those sections without proper referencing, but it would also demonstrate that at one point it was a perfectly acceptable page. I've done this on a few occasions, and by watchlisting the page I've been able to ensure that information added after acceptance is properly referenced. Sure, most of them never reach the same size as they were in the draft space, but they're well-sourced and (to quote EA above) "bomb-proof". Primefac (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Or just pepper it with 'citation needed' tags. Unfortunately it's usually the notability-conferring material (awards &c) that genuinely needs the references added. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I would argue against that, mostly because of WP:BLPREMOVE. I'd be find leaving awards with a {{cn}} tag, but not for running prose. Primefac (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've always interpreted the BLP policy as requiring removal of negative material that is inadequately sourced. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Cooincidentally I left a MINREF related comment for another reviewer today. I hope I got it right? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The population stats should theoretically have an inline source. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

...but we wouldn't decline on that basis, and would tag it as citation needed, accept the draft (assuming no major issues) and let someone fix it in mainspace. That's my understanding? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:04, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Yup. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The decline edit summary says "Declining submission: ilc - Submission is a BLP that does not meet minimum inline citation requirements"; should this be clarified elsewhere to align with that, or in the decline message? Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Accepting a Draft with Zero sources?

Is this the new standard or an abuse of AfCH script access? Nils_Forsberg. This AfC Reviewer likes to tag "Promising Drafts" without doing anything with them. Some of the tags are quite wrong. Now they submit and accept a page with no references. Legacypac (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I have not seen a requirement that a draft have sources to be accepted; this is obviously an encyclopedic subject. If there is such a requirement, please identify it for me. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

In fact, the stated standard is as follows: " Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace." There is a 0% chance that this draft will be deleted in an AFD discussion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It's an article on several other wikis with sources. I'd say it's fair to tag it as promising, but to move it to mainspace at very least the Swedish sources should be dumped at the bottom. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

"give me a break; this painter has articles in FOUR OTHER WIKIPEDIAS" is a worrying edit summary - Wikipedia has never been a valid reference, and many other languages allow articles with no references. If as in this case the other language articles have sources then as Espresso Addict said just copy some links over and dump at least, and there would be no drama. The "Reviewing workflow" has the step "Reliably sources?" after "Subject notable?". As like with the "MINREF again" above it looks like some are working of different principles, i.e. just "Would it survive AfD" vs the complete workflow, looks like we really do need to work on clarifications on what is expected so we are all working to the same (drama free) tune. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The four Wikipedias comment was shorthand for look at the other Wikipedias. These Wikipedias have reliable sources. Next time I will add them as "further reading". Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, better for the readers (always a key point for me), and easier for other editors to see why the decision to accept was made. Would hopefully stop unnecessary trips to AfD while someone gets around to adding the sources that did exist. KylieTastic (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Anyone taking an article to AfD with interlanguage links to reliably sourced articles [emphasis added] would soon be buried in a snowdrift. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

And they would be cleared after having been read the riot act of WP:OTHERLANGS. Hasteur (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is one with a single source Tianbao Time Plaza accepted by the same reviewer. I rejected the page because I could not find a single source in English to even confirm the building existed. Legacypac (talk) 18:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

English sources are not required. See WP:RSUE. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If you do not think this is an appropriate article, please nominate it for deletion. I have no opinion on that matter, because I don't speak Chinese. But Chinese-speaking editors should be the ones determining if the article is appropriate, not you or me. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If it is "not for you or me to decide if it is appropriate" then why did YOU decide it was appropriate and move it to mainspace? How about accepting Heuliez GX 117 again with zero sources? Why have you gone from tagging scads of drafts as "promising" but failing to do anything with them to accepting Drafts with no sources? How many more have you accepted like this? Legacypac (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Because if you remove the promising draft template, the default is deletion--without review by anyone who even speaks the language! Now that it is in mainspace, it will be discussed as appropriate. I have moved from tagging to moving because you are removing tags. If draftspace is a space of constant peril for promising articles, then promising articles should not be left there. Like I said, nominate these articles for deletion if you wish. The standard for acceptance is that they are likely to survive (not that all will survive). I believe that the articles I have moved are likely to survive AFD discussions. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving pages to mainspace that lack any sources leads to topic bans. Legacypac (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Can you provide an example of this? Or a policy that would justify this? Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

How about the topic ban (overturned) above for Legacypac, how about the numerous editors who have had their AFCH privilages yanked? Hasteur (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Links? (I'd genuinely like to read) Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It's in the archive, you're supposed to read and know the policies. Hasteur (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I have read the policies, but I haven't read every discussion in the archives of this page (and it is crazy to expect me to have done so). Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1:: I'm going to say this bluntly: Your competence at judging what is "promising", what is suitable for mainspace, and your judgement regarding articles is significantly troubling to me. I would note that editors have been topic banned and dis-invited from contributing to AFC reviews for less. Please take some time out and go re-read the policies, AFD nominations, MFD nominations, and items you have "promoted" to mainspace. I believe you may change your mind. Hasteur (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Hasteur: That is pretty hilarious, considering your astoundingly bad nomination of Nils Forsberg. "Please take some time out and go re-read the policies, AFD nominations"... 104.163.150.200 (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Calling the question: Removal of Calliopejen1's AFCH privileges and banning usage of Promising draft

For the reasons listed in the above section, for failure to understand Wikipedia policies and use this tool within these policies, or risk being blocked from editing Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Helper_script, For misuse of the promising draft template, for general tendentious attitude I propose the follwing:

1. Removal of permissions related to AFCH
2. Topic banning from usage of the Promising draft template

Both of these restrictions indefinite until such time that competence in AFCH usage is demonstrated and understanding what makes a promising draft. Hasteur (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Commenting purely in an administrative capacity, I'm not sure this project has the ability to implement or enforce #2, though obviously #1 is well within our purview. Primefac (talk) 19:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Primefac asked me for my thoughts here: I'd go a step further than him. Since the AFCH checklist is basically a PERM at this point, I don't think local consensus on a WikiProject talk page could prevent an admin from adding themselves back to the list (just like with AWB or EFM). I think admins can be banned from use of AFCH, but it would need to be at AN, not here. I have no opinion on the actual merits of this. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I was thinking the same thing, I was wondering if Hasteur even realised Calliopejen1 was an admin? I would have thought as they were all a consensus here could do would be to politely ask and admin to abstain and not actually ban (IMHO). KylieTastic (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I was not aware this user is an Admin! I just told them users have been topic banned for less. Legacypac (talk) 19:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If that is the case then Calliopejen1 needs to hand in her mop as the fundamental competence and judgement is so lacking that I have significant doubt as to if they would be able to pass a re-confirmation RfAdmin. Hasteur (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

This is absurd. Calliopejen1 has given a perfectly reasonable explanation for why they accepted the draft, and it's now at AfD where the community will decide what to do with it. They're not going to get topic banned or desysoped because you disagree with them. – Joe (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've long found their usage of the "promising draft" template to be somewhat indiscriminate. Now that there is an idea that template can not be removed by anyone else, such tagging is even more troubling. Combined with a series of moves that would have caused Primefac to yank AfCH from any one other than an Admin... Legacypac (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The AfD above is rapidly heading towards a snow keep, which would suggest that Calliopejen1, an admin with ten year's editing experience, does have some idea of what makes a draft "promising" after all. There have been complaints that this project has unreasonably high standards for as long as I can remember. Threatening to ban an editor for taking a slightly more inclusionist approach than the current crop of AfC regulars is hardly going to improve that reputation. – Joe (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The Nils Forsberg article is heading to snow keep, as mentioned above. The comments against Calliopejen1 at that AfD have been irrational and bordering on malicious. This discussion seems like a with hunt arising from an earlier bad blood interaction-- let's find something she did wrong and punish her. What was wrong here was Hasteur's AFD nomination and subsequent inaccurate comments. The artist is highly notable. Hasteur should make nicer comments and also read the WP:BEFORE policy, which is necessary when making AFD nomaintions.104.163.150.200 (talk) 23:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No user hiding behind an IP - she did something more than once that has been highly and widely criticized and punished with tool removals and long topic bans. Legacypac (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Sure thing, user hiding behind a user name.104.163.150.200 (talk) (Gelolocate me) 02:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Back on topic

If an Admin is allowed to accept pages with no sources and retain access to AFCH than I propose a couple things:

• Primefac issue an unequivocal apology for removing my script access because clearly I have been reviewing well above standard. Who knew sources did not matter?
• We codify the standard that no sources are required. This will make reviewing much faster and easier as all you need is a gut feel that something is a notable topic and the info is probably verifiable.

As an example, Draft:Honda Australia is definately a notable company but the core info is completely unsourced, though seems plausable. I doubt this would be deleted at AfD. Under the "no sources" standard this should be accepted without delay. Legacypac (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I would drop the stick, Legacy. You got your access re-instated, there is no requirement for an apology. It's over, let it go. SQL^{Query me!} 02:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Legacypac, I can hardly be described as someone who has it out for you, and I think you’re being too hard on Primefac: he was acting in good faith and closed the thread when it was clear his removal didn’t have support. It was the wrong call in my opinion, and I’ve told him as much in private, but he does good work coordinating this WikiProject with little praise. Your removal was a mistake, and I think he’s done his best to fix it, so I don’t see the need to keep harping on it. Yes I’m an admin and so is he, but I’m just trying to be fair to him as a person like I would with anyone.

On point two: I think moving something to mainspace with no sourcing was dumb: all that had to be done to save it from G13 was add a reference or a header with “further reading” and a link. If someone thinks a draft is promising and its completely unsourced, just add a source. I don’t think it’s worth desysoping someone over, though: the admin in question does a hell of a job in other areas. She made a mistake in my mind, but we’re not talking a case request here. If you feel strongly enough about it, ask for a review of her actions at AN. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:21, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Had I moved multiple drafts to mainspace with no refs I would be at ANI right now watching a topic ban be voted, and Primefac would have yanked my tools already. We all know it. Diffs available. Only Admins are allowed to make mistakes. Legacypac (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

For an experienced user much less an admin to be placing an unsourced article in main space is simply unconscionable. If a draft is 'promising' then it should be trivial to minimally source it. If not and it is moved into article space I believe MoveToDraft's default message is something like 'Unsourced. Moved to draft to incubate' or some such. So just use it and move on.

I do not see the point of taking any action against Calliopejen1 for this instance. Doing it again would be a problem deserving of sanction, but from feedback here she should know not to. We all screw up sometimes and the world still goes 'round. Jbh ^Talk 04:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I was away for a couple days, and came back to this thread. One of the articles in question was Nils Forsberg, which I reviewed originally, due to having zero referencing. Personally, I'd like at least ONE source, simply to prove that the attempt has been made, and that it isn't a complete scam, or something. I wasn't particularly happy about being pinged in the AfD either, but it was kept as SNOW, so the subject clearly WAS notible, and didn't fail the AfD... which is the only real information we have on how to review articles. If there is an issue here, (I don't think there is), then we need to have a look at how the WikiProject words this, and not simply have it be down to individuals thoughts. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

We should really come together and fix the issue, rather than demanding apologies, or suggesting a topic ban. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

The only sensible solution is to conduct a comprehensive revision of our reviewing instructions, which currently require reviewers to decline unsourced drafts. There are other points in the workflow that also no longer fit our currently accepted practices. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I really don't see what the fuss is about. I would have no qualms accepting a draft with zero sources if the content is easily verifiable with a web search. For example, if the draft says that X is a village in Y County, and looking up X on google comes up with a) a link to google maps showing the position of X within Y, and b) passing mentions from the context of which one can infer that X is indeed a village in Y, then that's good enough. Attempting to add these as refs would be silly, no sources is better than rubbish sources. – Uanfala (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

2 Week backlog and < 1000

Moving on from this issues above....lets just take a moment to say well done to all those who have kept on bashing at the backlog and got it back to a more sensible size, and a not so depressing wait message for new submissions. Beverages of choice for everyone who's been reviewing recently. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 15:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Overall we are getting better at mainspacing the good instead of sending it for multiple rounds and deleting the bad instead of rejecting it over and over. Next goal - under a week. Legacypac (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I think Legacypac deserves a lot of the credit here for single handedly grinding through daily backlogs a few weeks ago now making weekly backlogs manageable. ~Kvng (talk) 13:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

HasteurBot G13 processes discontinuing effectively immediately

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After repeated abuses by editors, admins, usage of the "Promising Draft", deletion nominations that are closed on the flimsiest of arguments, I'm leaving wikipedia permanantly. Thank Calliopejen and Esspresso Addict for driving the wedge in. This means effectively immediately HasteurBot's G13 maintenance is stopping. Hasteur (talk) 16:01, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Non-G13 deletion of drafts is a waste of our time and good will. Why do we do this to ourselves? ~Kvng (talk) 17:25, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not the time nor the place to re-(re-re-)litigate our CSD practices. If anyone is interested in picking up HasteurBot's duties the source code is linked on their talk page; it will require a BRFA but it should be a quick pass. Primefac (talk) 17:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy to pick up the duties (or rather, Bot0612 is). I'm experienced with Python so will be able to fix bugs and expand functionality should it ever be called for. I'll take a look now. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 21:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed why did some editors do this to the rest of us? Create a mechanism where a single editor can overturn the entire system of cleaning up abandoned junk without actually doing anything. The Wiki Way is someone adds a tag and someone removes it when they resolve the issue. Users of this tag need to be very careful because incorrect application creates substantial disruption and I can forsee the application of topic bans for too high a rate of inappropriate application. Some before to make sure the page does not already exist or has not been recently deleted via AfD would be a clgood start. Heck better yet if the page is actually "promising" just mainspace it already don't leave it for someone else to sort out. Legacypac (talk) 21:59, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Practices/Best Practices for rejected drafts of subjects which are suitable for articles

Context: When reviewing pages, I often come across a draft I like but which I think needs some work before it can be accepted. If I do not have time to do the work, I sometimes bookmark the page to come back to later. Sometimes the page is accepted before I get back to it, sometimes it is still a draft and I can improve it and then accept it myself, and sometimes it has been rejected. My question is about this last case. Dilemma: When a draft has been rejected and I would like to improve the page and move it to the main space, what is the best practice? First, obviously, I should go ahead and improve the page. At that point, I do not think I need to leave the draft and wait for the original editor to make any edits they wish and submit it themselves. So there are three options: 1) I could resubmit it to AfC and let someone else review it, 2) I could resubmit it to AfC and then accept it myself, or 3) I could simply move the article to the mainspace. I generally perform 2, although when I want a second opinion I do 1. Application: A number of abandoned drafts were recently posted at WT:WIR, any of which I might like to develop. As a reviewer, I could and likely would simply perform 2. Is there any reason I should do 1 instead? Any user could go ahead and perform 3 - risking AfD but doing so in a way that avoids notifying people who watch the new AfC list. This strikes me as in poor form for a AfC reviewer to do, but I don't see any reason the article should be automatically reverted to draft in such a case. If done and noticed, should such an article be posted to the new AfC list? Smmurphy^(Talk) 10:10, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I personally, see no issue in using the script to submit as the original editor, and accepting. Especially when an article has been declined, and is clearly notable. That way, the original user gets the notifications that the article was successful. As with all of Wikipedia, no one owns a draft, so you could simply move it, but as likely new users, it may well be good practice to inform them that it's been accepted. You could leave the article to be re-assessed, but there really is no reason to do this, unless you feel you have a COI, or it's a more borderline case. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

1 and 3 would be your best options. 2 gives the community the impression that the new article has been reviewed by an independent editor and that's not the case here. That said, 2 is easier to do than 3 so I've definitely taken that shortcut. Maybe AFCH could be improved to do 3. ~Kvng (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I'll be honest, I've used #2 on multiple good (unsubmitted) drafts purely because it's less legwork - the script does all the work. There is nothing wrong with improving a page to an acceptable level; this is a collaborative project and we all know no one "owns" a draft. We're seeing a (positive) shift in mentality at this project, and "going through AFC" doesn't necessarily mean it will automatically get the green light from NPR (since they still have to patrol it), but no one will hold it against you if it something isn't perfect (unless it happens repeatedly). Primefac (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I regularly submit drafts I find and immediately accept them. I come across them in stale userspace, G13 eligible list, and other places. The creator gets a nice message and it makes the move easier. I see no conflict of interest at all because I did not write the draft and I have no conflict of interest with any topic on the site. Occasionally I also submit pages but don't accept them myself because I'd like a second opinion or it's a math topic or something that needs different expertise.

There is an army of NPP and other editors that watch new pages, followed by topic editors that get summoned when their page is linked or via wikiprojects. They can fiddle with the categories, fix formating, wikilink, fill in empty sections (I'll add "empty section" sometimes) and do other things. There is a very limited number of AfC reviewers so we should do our thing and not feel bad leaving work for others who do their thing. Legacypac (talk) 14:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Totally agree with this statement. Unless there's a reason why you would be in an COI, or would like a second opinion, we should be ok to move articles via the script if the article is suitible. It's no different from cleaning up an article before moving to mainspace in my opinion. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd go even further. If you write a Draft from scratch you can use the script to submit and accept it. The contribution history is there to see anyway. The script is a tool to make things easier not a special blessing of the page. I use it to make comments on drafts that have been no where near AfC sometimes even because both the draft and the creator's talk get a copy of the comment. Legacypac (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks all! That is what I figured and I'm glad for the confirmation. Smmurphy^(Talk) 19:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Paywalled sources - what is your practice?

This came up as I was talking with a paid at editor at Draft_talk:CAN_Capital#Notes about what was wrong with their draft and how they could improve it.

I kind of walked through how I review any page when I come across it.

One of things that arose, is at least two of the potentially strong sources are paywalled (both are commercially oriented websites that libraries don't generally have).

What do you all do when you are reviewing an AfC submission, and can't access a source that may be essential for N or just plain old V? Jytdog (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

You can AGF, or do a quick search for other sources that may exist. This should be enough to tell if the topic is notable without referring to the paywalled material. Sometimes a google search will have enough of a snippet for you to see if it is real or not. I don't think you should remove those sources unless you have something to replace them with. The same problem arises with paper books. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Idea re: identifying worthwhile drafts that fail

Is there any way to incorporate into the script some sort of functionality to check off whether a draft you're declining seems to have potential, and relevant wikiproject(s)? Perhaps it could even automatically post notices on those Wikiprojects at the time of the decline, so that interested editors might see a newcomer and mentor them. And then alert the Wikiproject when the draft is nearing the six-month deletion mark, so that the project could evaluate and improve/move the article if desired. Thoughts? Do people think this could be a good idea? Trying to figure out how to get attention on the drafts that could be useful and not have them end up in the trash bin. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

At the most basic level, the answer to your first question is "yes", as is the answer to most of the rest of your yes/no questions about if it could be done.

From a practical perspective, Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions has more than 4000 pages in it (specifically 3,488), and I'm not really sure that a WikiProject would appreciate even 0.1% of those notifications (though I suppose it could be set up like the Article Alerts as a centralized listing, but I don't think anyone really ever looks at those either). Primefac (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In my review of declined drafts nearing G13 deletion, there is very little that is promising. I'm guessing we're talking a very very small number per WikiProject. If we got complaints, we could turn off the notifications. Or perhaps run a survey seeking input after a one-month trial. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

This also could tie into User:SmokeyJoe's idea of a WP:WikiProject Promising Drafts. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC) And ping @Uanfala: who was wanting to brainstorm stuff like this. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Given that over half of the drafts listed at Wikipedia:Database_reports/Stale_drafts don't appear to come via AfC, the major solution we're seeking should not be specific to AfC. I'm thinking of a broader "comb" that will go through AfC submissions (from the time they're submitted) and through any other non-AfC drafts (after a certain period has elapsed since their last edit). Another reason I don't see this tying well with AfC is that reviewers already have a lot to worry about, I don't think we should be adding any additional tasks to their already complicated workflows. – Uanfala (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe something as simple as a "maybe not junk" checkbox (no wikiproject selection) would be uncomplicated enough? Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe the two processes can be tied together somehow? Anyway, I've brought up the topic at Wikipedia talk:Drafts#Draft-sort brainstorming. Participants are welcome to comment there. – Uanfala (talk) 23:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In my experience you will have better fishing for useful stuff in userspace and G13 postponed: See guide at Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts and especially the Scope section.

Yes, those are good places too. But I'd like to surface new articles while their authors are still active, so we can mentor them and not lose people (along with their work). I would also like to find things before they are deleted. And if these drafts are identified at the time of submission, it will also allow editors to more easily find what is worth postponing in the first place. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

See Category:Declined_AfC_submissions and in particular "Needing Footnotes", the "Custom" and "Needing to be merged" subcategories have the more promising topics. Once their pet topic is rejected most editors tend to wander off though (if not right after the first submission) If you want to mentor look through the active submissions and helpdesk and offer helpful comments. You might reach someone who wants help. Legacypac (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Those categories are not terribly helpful--tons and tons of junk. I'm trying to think of a lightweight way to flag the stuff that might not be junk on the front end. I did just discover Antanas Vaičiulaitis in the custom category, though, which is one of the more depressing declines I've seen lately... Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

That user has since left the project (and Wikipedia) following a CIR/DE indef block, and their reviews should not be taken as an indicator of the status of all reviewers (i.e. take them with many grains of salt and feel free to ignore the closes if they're grossly inappropriate). Primefac (talk) 12:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, for those that have missed it, we do have a draft sorter and a script that allows us to tag drafts with the relevant WikiProject(s). Notifying projects could be as simple as letting them know that there are drafts in their purview. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I never said those categories were not filled with junk only that they might have the odd salvageable page. It is possible to find useful stuff anywhere, but is it worth the effort? Most importantly whatever you do do not disrupt the systems that clears out garbage. Individual often marginal pages are just not so important that saving one is worth making 100 pieces of junk a lot more work to get rid of. By design 100% of the pages here should only contain info available somewhere else. So if we don't have a page on X we are not depriving the world of knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legacypac (talk • contribs) 14:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, but I'm trying to think of a better way than mining junk. Someone looks at the article at the time of reviewing. If we could add a "might be worthwhile" checkbox on the front end, editors looking through declines could focus on pages tagged that way instead of mountains of garbage. Another idea: Who does the WP:YFA page? Could we have article creators answer a couple basic questions at the time of submitting that would help us review? E.g. is this 1) a living person, 2) a dead person, 3) a company or non-profit, 4) a geographic place, or 5) other? And then send you to different submit boxes that add a bit of code to the draft. Declines in categories 1 and 3 are going to be 98%+ garbage. Declines in category 2-- fairly good chance they are not garbage. 4 and 5-- some chance they are not garbage. Maybe there are some other categories we could use to the extent there are other useful patterns. This wouldn't add any work to reviewers' plates. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Taking this discussion to WP:DRAFT since it's not AFC specific.... Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

hi Calliopejen1 I think you are hitting on a good point here: most promising drafts are buried and require a lot of rooting around to find them and they are not categorised in any meaningful way. So an editor who wants to save drafts finds it very hard to. I think your idea of posting promising drafts to a wikiproject is great. It would help give Wikiprojects new purpose (a lot of them have slowed down) and even if the draft ends up deleted, it would help give a record of drafts that were started and thus new editors could go to refund to help get them back. Wikiprojects are also more likely to be visited by new editors than places like "promising draft" so it would help get new eyes on the projects. Edit: I notice you are discussing this in wp:drafts (not draft) so I will follow there. Egaoblai (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

unrealistic advice

Our instructions (and advice elsewhere inWP,) says: If you have an idea for the title of an article, but no content for the article itself, please make a request at Wikipedia:Requested articles This list is unmanageable, and almost nothing from the many pages of it ever gets made. It creates unrealistic hopes. We suggest it because we have nothing better to suggest; does anyone have any ideas.? DGG ( talk ) 16:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, we could remove it from the guidance entirely, but to be honest I think having a graveyard of bad ideas is better than people making pointless/blank pages because they want a page but don't have any information on it. Primefac (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I regularly clear out Category:AfC_submissions_declined_as_blank and yet it refills. I think a filter should be made that prevents saving Draft or Mainspace pages shorter than X (unless a redirect) with a message that says "you have not included enough information to create a new page". Yes sending them to WP:Requested articles is pointless. Why do it? Legacypac (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

We briefly discussed not allowing drafts to be submitted when they were <450 characters long, but there was enough opposition I didn't do it (instead creating a tracking category). Of course, it was also in the middle of the WMF "process improvement" thing, so if someone wants to re-start the discussion here in its own thread they're welcome to. Primefac (talk) 17:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Most WikiProjects have a requests place (such as WP:VG/R), in some way or another. Why not at least send them that way? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I have marked Wikipedia:WikiProject Requested articles as semi-active. Not much has happened there in the last year. It is currently a frustrating endpoint and so perhaps we should stop directing people there for now. ~Kvng (talk) 03:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that would be hasty. The WikiProject might not be active but I know I've created articles from Wikipedia:Requested articles/Social sciences on occasion and people are still maintaining it. I don't see that it hurts to direct people there, even if takes a while. It's not like we have a better option. – Joe (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

User:DGG, User:Primefac - I have a comment that isn't directly related to Requested Articles, but is directly related to AFC. I have decided that I will never decline a draft submission as blank, because the advice is useless. Anyway, most of the blank submissions that I encounter are in sandboxes that have been submitted to AFC without being given a title, although some do have titles. Untitled submissions certainly are not requests for articles, and I don't think that other blank submissions are requests for articles. I have begun declining all such submissions as Test Edits, with a comment saying that the draft has no content. I normally advise that, if they were trying to submit a draft and were having difficulty, they should ask for help at the Teahouse. I think that declining such submissions as test edits with a comment is much better than the canned message. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I actually CSD G2 blank submissions when I find them and from the list of declined as blank. I just blank sandboxes submitted as blank to get them out of the list to be reviewed. Clearly these submissions are not intended for review. Legacypac (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

A few of the sectiona of Requested Articles are actually in use by various wikiprojects in a practical way as list of articles to be made, such as lists from topics with articles in other WPs. They could obviously movethat to subpages of the project space, but weneed to take this into accountbefore totaly dismaltling the project. On the other pagesthe topics suggested are not necessarily worthless--ity's just placing them there is about the least likely way to get an article created.

As for blank submissions, tyhiswe can fix by removing the option, or changingthe textto read "was blank submission and has been deleted" and sending them to G2. I've been doing that also. I suspect it's that people think they're goign to write something and then don't get back to it--ewhy they click the sybmit button however is something I do not understand.

Blanking blank sandboxes to clear the tagging seems a good idea. I had not thought of doing it, but now I will. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Second opinion?

Would someone mind reviewing Draft:John Hennessey (auto racing)? I rejected it for the reason stated on my Talk page here [5], however, the creator (Ramos.michael1) does raise valid points and - after staring at it for a few minutes - I think this is really teetering on the edge of notability. Chetsford (talk) 21:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I suggest we tell the user to move it themselves as they appear ready to defend any deletion attempt. Legacypac (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

That option was discussed a week ago with the general consensus being that approving a draft just to send it to AFD (or in this instance, telling them to move it so that we can AFD it) is improper. I haven't looked at the draft (might do later if I get an opportunity) but if it's borderline I suppose it would meet our "50/50 at AFD" criteria. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect to Hennessey Performance Engineering per WP:BIO1E. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

User:Primefac kindly stop twisting my words. I never suggested "we" AfD it. I said the creator is prepared to defend it if it was AfD'd. AfC can and should decline to process some pages. Some creators don't need our help. Legacypac (talk) 23:57, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Blocked Creator/Secondary Editor

Hi,

Am currently reviewing Draft:Vascon Engineers. Now it is actually fairly well sourced (more accurately, there are some good sources within the list); its "promo-ness" is mainly due to its existence rather than its content. A secondary user added the significant piece of negative news on the company.

However it was on the username check that I realised that there is a slightly confusing area about the user and them potentially being blocked. The Creating IP isn't blocked. However they create the talk page to declare a paid COI. Another user notifies them they should create an account, and a Second IP responds in line with being the same person. That IP is later blocked and then receives a year ban for block evasion.

Now it seems reasonable that they are the same users (they are clearly in a fairly close IP block) but I can't actually confirm it. The non-blocked IP did some Paid COI notification but didn't do the whole process.

All of this leads me to query - should I just decline the draft. Does the participation of a content addition by a second editor alter a judgement on these grounds?

(Please Ping)

Nosebagbear (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Nosebagbear I've just taken a superficial look at the draft, unless there are problems with the sources or large scale copyvio, I'd be inclined to Accept it. You have not mentioned any valid reason to decline it in your post above. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:37, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

vast majority of it being written by probable block evading ip is the reason that I see Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:45, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Dodger67 - I had passed it on my excel checklist, sources and copyvio both passed, it was just the username step before clicking accept that was left. Given the early split view I've left it as under review for now Nosebagbear (talk) 18:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Galobtter, Nosebagbear One blocked and one unblocked IP wrote the draft. I'm not sure that is sufficient grounds to decline or delete it. If you're not going to make a decision soon rather unmark the draft so that someone else can do a review if they wish. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to finish the process now - in the end, it is a net benefit to Wiki to add it. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I've dropped the salting admin a request to remove creation protection - I will remove review and leave a comment that an unsalt request has been made. I'll drop it on the board tomorrow if I haven't had a response by then. (Unsigned)

Topic should be accepted per WP:LISTED. It matters not who created the page, its a notable topic. Legacypac (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Note: this is currently under discussion at WP:Deletion review/Log/2018 June 11 -- RoySmith (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Opinions on Draft:David Francis Kinney

I would like the comments of other reviewers on whether I handled this draft optimally. It was previously declined as a biography whose references did not show notability, which was correct because there were no references. I think that the subject is notable, because the draft says that he received a Pulitzer Prize, but that must be attested. I think that the author of the draft is related to the subject, possibly his daughter (maybe Jane R. Kinney) and should declare the COI. The draft was resubmitted again with no references, and I declined it with a long message. Was this the optimal response? (I know that the "pessimal" response would have been to Accept the draft because of the Pulitzer, but to run the risk that it would be tagged WP:BLPPROD. Reviewers are advised not to accept a draft that won't pass AFD, but this one wouldn't pass WP:BLPPROD.) This is an unusual situation because the subject is almost certainly notable but the submission has two problems anyway, the lack of reference and COI. Thoughts? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

There are refs now, but I found he did not win the Pulitzer, his paper did. So we need better sourcing showing he was a key player winning the award. For all we know he had nothing to do with the reporting on the winning story - or he was the lead reporter? Legacypac (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It looks like he wrote one of the pieces that is listed as "Winning Work" on http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/staff-61. It's the third one—"Political landscape in turmoil". Don't see his name on the byline of any of the other "Winning Work" pieces. /wiae /tlk 23:46, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

He was not one of the two who accepted the award in the photo. He might be a notable author if reviews can be found but not notable only for this prize. Legacypac (talk) 23:51, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course, for a member of his family to attribute the Pulitzer to him illustrates why Wikipedia has conflict of interest rules, because family members are likely to be biased, which is not meant to criticize them, but it is meant to question their neutrality. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Julie_Carlson notability

Hello, new AfCer and asking questions as promised!

I'm reviewing Draft:Julie_Carlson and leaning decline:

• I don't think the editor has succeeded in establishing notability distinct from Carlson's design site, Remodelista (certainly after removing the sizeable chunk of copy/paste from that article). The editor is also the creator of that article.
• While they've assembled a range of sources, they all appear to be either primary, interviews, or promotional. This person often seems to be quoted in lifestyle/design articles, but always in association with Remodelista. This NYT source is a typical example.
• At AfD, I'd be inclined to delete or merge with Remodelista.

If anyone is available to do a drive-by and confirm, that would be very helpful. Cheers, Basie (talk) 23:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree and I've declined it. Legacypac (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, that's appreciated (and speedy!) Basie (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Older drafts with comments

One more. Where a draft has already received some reviewer attention (e.g. Draft:Natalia_Bardo) but hasn't been accepted or declined, is it normal practice to wait and allow the page to be further improved? Basie (talk) 01:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

If you come across a page where a reviewer has recently (like, in the last hour) edited the page, then yes, I would leave it and come back later (they might be making big edits). If all they did was edit the page and "run" (i.e. didn't review, didn't do anything further) then you're welcome to review it. Primefac (talk) 01:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks. Basie (talk) 01:52, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Closure of RFC announcement

The RFC at the Village Pump regarding a modification of the language of WP:NMFD has been closed. The result of the discussion was that drafts may be deleted for notability at MfD if it also meets one of the deletion reasons and consensus determines that it is unlikely to ever meet the requirements for mainspace (emphasis added). Please see the discussion for the full close. Primefac (talk) 01:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

JavaScript and AFCH Permission Error

Hello,

I am writing as a result of several issues, pertaining to editing an article, in which I spent roughly 5 hours making changes and improvements. The article can be located at the following URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR?action=edit

I went to Publish Changes, and after filling out the requisite information pertaining to the edit, I selected the radio button, and all of the work I had attempted seems to have disappeared. I am sure you can understand just how frustrating this is, however I would like to know if there is a way to locate the changes.

In addition, after the attempt was made to Publish changes, I have been receiving strange and unfamiliar pop-ups, one pertaining to something to do with JavaScript, and the second mentioned something about AFCH Permission Error, at least I believe that was the acronym. I have made plenty of changes throughout WikiMedia and the Sister Projects, and have yet to encounter any errors such as this.

Please help assist with these matters, as I feel aa though I have wasted a good part of my day, without anything to show for it, thanks.

Regards,

Mark Halsey 20:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)Mark Halsey — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markhalsey (talk • contribs)

@Markhalsey: I'm sorry you had that error. Web pages can crash sometimes, so if you are making significant time consuming edits, it's recommended to write them offline on your computer in something like Notepad or TextEdit and then copying and pasting it into the Wikipedia edit window.

The AFCH permission error occurs when you activate the AFCH tool without being listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants. You don't need the AFCH tool to write, edit, or submit an article, so you can make the error go away by unchecking "Yet Another AfC Helper Script" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 18:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Article originally written on Medium

Draft:Priority of mind is a verbatim copy of parts of a deleted Medium article, cached here. What I think has happened is that they've used Medium's interface to write the article before moving it to WP. It certainly looks like it was intended for our format. Are there any copyvio concerns here? Basie (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

The content on Medium is owned by the content creators (or to quote them directly You own the rights to the content you create and post on Medium.). The user who created the draft has the same username as the one that created the content on Medium, so it's likely it's the same person. If they hadn't deleted it, a simple copyleft would work. However, they have since deleted the Medium page, so I'm not quite sure about the copyright status of the page (I'll ping the usual suspects for a 2O). Primefac (talk) 12:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Mt opinion: Removing the content from the original location online does not change its copyright status. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. We need proof of compatible license. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks all, I've followed up with the editor. Basie (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

ideas for improvements

At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:PGSOFT User:Robert McClenon and I were idly discussing the big AfC problems again. I noted three systemic problems, of a continuous turnstile nature, w:

(1) Newcomers write and submit inept drafts on unsuitable topics;

(2) The newcomer resubmits with minimal if any improvement

(3) The overly soft decline template actually invites (my reading, in the mind of the author) repeated resubmissions as a method of ongoing "conversation".

I've been going on about (3) for a long time. I think the decline template needs massive shortening, and there needs to be a very short and sweet "reject" template. I note that the recent RfC clarifies that resubmission without improvement is a reason for deletion.

Challenged for ideas on #1 and #2: I think we could try altering the word "submit" on the submit button. "Submit" conveys the wrong subliminal message, of handing control over to someone else, of dumping responsibility. A raw idea, but my idea is that this button should be split to two buttons. One is "request feedback". The other is "I think this draft is ready for mainspace". Also, at the point of submission, the author should be directed to a IsItNotable questionaire/checklist.

Most ideas won't run, but when the system is having troubles, we need ideas. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:12, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• • As to (3) my idea is the reviwers shall have the luxury of choosing from two broad kind of decline templates.One class for articles that have the potential but suffers from issues, which are quite serious, to hamper the ideas of outright main-spacing.The second class would be without the saccharine-coated advice about resubmitting and will make it clear that it's damn unsuitable for WP (Sort of NSFW).
  • And, any prospects as to implementation of multiple decline reasons?~ Winged Blades^Godric 08:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I think, for what it is worth, that decline reasons (“decline” meaning not ready but could be improved to suitable) should be written in free text on the talk page. I think that real people appreciate not template messages. UPE throwaway sock product does not deserve soft “decline” messages. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

"Soft" declines are bad, but making them too definitive is also against the ethos of the project: editors aren't supposed to decide the fate of articles by themselves. I would like to see AfC restructured to encourage more definitive decisions on drafts, but through consensus. Mainspace already has good quality control processes (NPP+CSD+AfD). I think the long-term problem with AfC is that we keep trying to duplicate those functions in draftspace – and failing. Much better to just kick things to mainspace as soon as possible and let them handle it there. Or else tell the creator it doesn't have a chance in mainspace and delete it straight away. I started sandboxing some ideas on reforming AfC along those lines at User:Joe Roe/Requests for publication. I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on whether those ideas have potential. – Joe (talk) 09:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

On the Ideas for Improvement

Here are a few thoughts. There is no solution, and not even any mitigation, to issue 1. Editors who submit drafts fall into three classes, in my opinion, two of which overlap. The first is those who have some clue as to what is encyclopedic and actually want to contribute. Some of their drafts will be accepted, and some require improvement but will eventually be accepted. The second is editors who are self-serving. The third is editors who are completely clueless. Some are both self-serving and clueless. The job of AFC is to identify the submissions that are in the first class and, if necessary, help them, and get them into article space, but to spend minimal time on the second and third, and not encourage them. The idea of discouraging (or at least not encouraging) them is contrary to the overall Wikipedia culture, in which Do not bite the newbites is a commandment rather than a guideline, and in which assume good faith is a suicide pact. (Because of this hyper-optimistic culture, reviewers get dumped on for not being sufficiently gushing over new editors.)

I don't agree with having two Submit buttons. I don't see the point to that. I, like most of the editors who are familiar with AFC, do agree that there need to be two non-accept messages, a soft decline and a hard decline.

I disagree with giving two reviewers the ability to delete a submission. A contestable PROD is fine. I think that A7 deletes for no credible claim of significance should be permitted, and maybe A1 for no context. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• I think there is a point to splitting the submit button. A problem with the submit button is that it is big and singular, and I think newcomers are pressing the "submit" button when they would be better advised to be pressing a "request for feedback button". So, as brainstorming, I suggest adding a "request for feedback" button. Probably, it should open a thread at the TeaHouse with some default text that the newcomer is encouraged to add to. Possibly, it should start up a past on the draft_talk page that is transcluded or otherwise flagged at the TeaHouse.

On the "submit" button, I think maybe it is too much implying that after pressing the button, the work and responsibility will shift to someone else. I suggest change the text of the button from "submit" to "I think this draft is ready for mainspace". I think this might discourage repeated submissions following small improvements, especially if there is a request_feedback button.

Noting the recent RfC that clarified that resubmission without improvement is a reason for deletion, I think maybe there should be some text stating this, near the submit button. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:40, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe ignoring submissions and dragging out the rejections hoping the user gos away is good. It leads to long backlogs. I prefer a quick clear no via a template or CSD or MfD Legacypac (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: do you know what percentage of our backlog consists of improper resubmissions? Have you compared resources spent in CSD and MfD vs. declining improper resubmissions? If you don't think allowing authors or submissions to fade on their own is the right outcome, what do you think is the best outcome and how does CSD and MfD help get us there? ~Kvng (talk) 14:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Different pages should be treated differently. See User:JJMC89_bot/report/AfC_decline_counts for an idea of the frequently declined pages. Some don't fade but stick around for years because the creator keeps tweaking or bots and AWP users make inconsequential edits. Spam links have significant Wap:SEO value even in draft space. Sometimes a firm NO via CSD or MfD is the answer. There is no more work to CSD a page today than wait till G13 and the CSD now is not elegable for an easy WP:REFUND so more permanent. Hope that helps, I wish I had hard numbers Legacypac (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Reject template. A main review option next to Decline

It's been said many times that AfC needs a firm reject option / template in complement the soft decline template. I think this has been broadly agreed to, with no one actively disagreeing. Is it fair to say that that we are all agreed, and it is just a matter of formalizing that, and getting someone to write the detail of the reject option, and to implement it?

In my imagination, how this would then work, is that on reviewing a draft, a reviewer has these options:

• CSD it. (things that should be speedy deleted should be speedy deleted promptly and without fanfare.
• Accept it. It would probably be kept at AfD.
• Recommend (or do) a merge or a straight redirect, the topic is already in mainspace.
• Decline it. It may be OK, but the author needs to do some work, or find some better sources.
• Reject it. It is not suitable, though not speedy deleteable. Similar to the {{NSFW}} template. The reviewer may have rejected in error, so it shouldn't be immediately deleted, but in time it should be deleted. The reject option should state "rejected" with a very brief explanation, possibly a "sorry", and it should not encourage the author to keep trying on the same topic.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm a lone dissenter but I have consistently objected to efforts to implement a hard decline through (what I consider to be) WP:BITEY reject language or, especially, deletion of drafts. I maintain that the way to deal with this is to let these submissions sit in the queue for a while when the are resubmitted and eventually and consistently decline them. Having multiple reviewers look at the draft assures that we're making a good reject decision. With consistent rejects the good-faith authors will get the message. With time and emotionally level responses, the trolls will lose interest.

I do not believe that these submissions consume significant reviewer time. I do believe that they are exasperating to some reviewers but I believe the better solution is for those reviewers to stop dealing with these drafts.

I do believe there is work to be done on our decline language and options. Primefac has created a workshop for that. I'm not sure that process is converging though. ~Kvng (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't disagree with this, in my darker moments I've wanted a "decline-o-meter" with a 0-10 shot of it being acceptable. That being said, I feel the issue is two-fold: The language in the decline templates is entirely useless to humans, and we should be more aggressive with CSDing spam. Forgive my tangent, but people who aren't associated with a company don't call it "an industry-changing innovative whatever" and don't get me started with articles that say "we have expanded to over 200 locations!". I also feel MfD is somewhat under-utilized by folks, myself included. All that to say I'm not a huge fan of stringing along people who submit spam, and to a lesser extent people who submit NOTHERE articles. I feel the former should be dumped on sight, and the latter given an AGF review message. So, I'm going with neutral on this :D Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 15:02, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I completely agree with the examples provided by User:Drewmutt that they should be shot on sight with G11 with survivors prosecuted. The former is marketing buzzspeak, which says nothing at all, and a single use of the first person plural should indicate Foe on Identify Friend or Foe. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I also completely agree. MfD underutilised? You might expect me to argue, but I won’t, the problem with so many past MfDs of draft pages is that the nominations cited tendentious resubmitting when the template encourages a EditImprove-Resubmit-DeclinewithFeedback-EditImprove cycle, and when nominations posed an open notability question as if the MfD reviewers had to do an AfD style analysis and this was contrary to community views articulated at the NMFD RfC. I wish for a hard Reject response where at a simple face reading the author is not invited to resubmit. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I have attempted to make a harder decline template. It can be found at User:Tazerdadog/AfC template

Commentary is welcome. Tazerdadog (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

It would be a big improvement. My comment in passing is that it is verbose. I think the draft page “reject” should be very brief, and your version, with the myriad of potentially useful links, should go,on the author’s talk page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:24, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• This is a little tangential to SmokeyJoe's original thread, but I wonder if it might be useful to add an easy link for page creators to request {{db-self}} deletion, particularly in cases where a draft has no foreseeable chance of success in mainspace. Something like User:Mz7/sandbox/AfC declined or User:Mz7/sandbox/AfC declined alt. Mz7 (talk) 18:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think so. I sounds like pushing humiliation onto the inept newcomer. Why not let it wait for G13? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
• Rejection sucks. But, isn't it better to reject something cleanly, and politely explain why, than to string the person along with pointless encouragement? There's a need to differentiate between, "This sucks, but it's fixable if you do X, Y, and Z", vs. "This is fundamentally sucky, don't waste our time or yours on trying to improve it". NIH has a review category of Not Recommended for Further Consideration. That's what we need. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • RoySmiths comments are always very good, I think I always agree with them. I love the picture.

Rejection sucks. An amelioration is to be very explicit that it is the draft topic that is rejected, not the author, or the effort, or the writing. Too many decline reasons, the ones that are too softly worded rejections, read as implying that the author hasn’t tried enough, when the real problem is that the topic simply isn’t notable. When this is the case, User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable is an excellent response. It makes it very easy on the author and dumps the failure on the topic.

Of course, it is hard to separate criticism of the author from criticism of notability of the topic when the draft is a promotional autobiography. Difficult, but not very difficult. “Reviewer User:Example has judged the topic as not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article. If you disagree, follow the instructions at User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable.” —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Is there anything stopping this from becoming reality? Do we need to take this to a mini-RFC? MER-C 19:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Pinging @Enterprisey:: Is there any large technical hurdle to getting something like this added as an additional decline option? My (very involved) reading is that we have a rough consensus to do that, but I wouldn't object to a quick 7 day RFC if that's contested. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Place WikiProject Articles for creation below other WikiProject templates by default

Sometimes, a user moves WikiProject Articles for creation from the top to the bottom while updating parameters for other WikiProject templates. For example, this happened with Maths rating in many edits by Bryanrutherford0, the most recent being Special:Diff/810809082 for Talk:Polarization constants. The same thing also happened with WikiProject Video games for the page Talk:A Rose in the Twilight in Special:Diff/845715301 by PRehse. For consistency, the AFCH script should place WikiProject Articles for creation below other WikiProject templates by default. A bot will then retroactively move WikiProject Articles for creation to below other WikiProject templates as in Wikipedia:Bot requests#Move WikiProject Articles for creation to below other WikiProject templates. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Does it particularly matter where the AFC banner gets placed? Primefac (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

When I place project banners, I order them in terms of relevance. The AfC banner is the least relevant of all banners and I'm even surprised that it exists: the moment the article enters mainspace the AFC project becomes completely irrelevant and I'm having difficulty seeing how the continuing presence of the banner could be justified. Isn't there a less conspicuous way of tracking these articles, say using a category? – Uanfala (talk) 21:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The AfC banner is hardly irrelevent as it shows an experienced vetted reviewer already reviewed the page. There has been discussion that such pages should tagged as passing NPP and once we finish aligning AfC access with the NPR user right that will likely be implemented. I'm not a fan of tagging to inactive wikiprojects that have never touched a page and never will, but some users like to spend time doing that and I can't stop them. Order of boxes is irrelevent. Legacypac (talk) 23:08, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

An Idea About Certain Repeated Submissions

I have an idea that may need tweaking. There are a class of submissions, often about organizations, where it appears to reviewers that the subject is probably notable but the draft doesn't establish notability, and where repeated resubmissions do not really improve the draft. These sometimes wind up at MFD for repeated resubmission. I think that the problem may be that the submitter is "stuck" and doesn't get it that notability is established by what third parties have written. At some point, maybe the third or fourth resubmit, a reviewer, rather than just declining and saying that independent sources are needed (which is true, but the submitter/author doesn't get it), should advise the submitter/author to ask for advice at the Teahouse or a WikiProject. If the topic is notable, one of the editors there might actually improve the draft. Thoughts?

In my experience, it is common in these cases that the subject is simply not notable. The author may or may not get it but in either case there is not adequate coverage to be found. When I come across these, I add {{Friendly search suggestions}} to the talk page and do my own search. If I find nothing, I decline and explain the situation in a reviewer comment. I don't think there's a reason to send these to the Teahouse or a wikiproject. Reviewers here are supposed to be good at ascertaining notability and dealing with new editors; we should have all the skills we need to deal with this here. ~Kvng (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Brainstorming

User:SmokeyJoe provided a useful three-part statement of what are the problems at AFC, and then offered some ideas. I disagreed with one of them. User:SmokeyJoe then went to my talk page and (take your pick) dumped on me for being negative, or said that all ideas proposed here should be considered brainstorming, and that one of the ground rules of brainstorming is that ideas are not criticized, and that bad ideas may simply be ignored, because ideas in general should be encouraged. So. I would suggest that any ideas that are thrown out as brainstorming should be introduced as brainstorms. Otherwise the ideas may be taken as hard proposals. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Did you think two parts were useful? What were the two parts? How do you see them as useful? -SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

See below for the two parts, resubmission with minimal improvement, and the overly soft decline template. We are in agreement about the decline template. Do you want to brainstorm about the repeated resubmissions? If so, I won't respond to any ideas that I don't agree with. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That's not how brainstorming works. Identifying the problems in ideas leads to improvement of the ideas. The key to successful brainstorming is to not take criticisms of your ideas personally and for the criticisms to be productive and focused on the ideas, not the people generating them. ~Kvng (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

By the Way

By the way, the three-part statement of the problem was:

1. Newcomers write and submit inept drafts on unsuitable topics;
2. The newcomer resubmits with minimal if any improvement
3. The overly soft decline template actually invites (my reading, in the mind of the author) repeated resubmissions as a method of ongoing "conversation".

I said that there was nothing that could be done about (1) and that we should focus on (2) and (3). I am willing to offer some bad ideas to deal with (1), but I have thought at length and do not think that there can be any good ideas for dealing with (1) that don't fall into the class of WP:Perennial proposals. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

(2) The newcomer resubmits with minimal if any improvement

At MfD, this is what we see over and over again. Perhaps that’s an unrepresentative sampling? But it feels like there is an endless flow of this behaviour from newcomers. Subquestion: is it by different newcomers and a recurring that needs fixing; or is it by the same few puppet masters and a symptom not a root problem?

It really is an endless flow of this behavior from newcomers. It really is the downside of the success of Wikipedia, that tens of thousands of clueless people and clueless self-serving people are coming in persistently. It really is different newcomers. There is some sockpuppetry, but it is usually clueless sockpuppetry. As to whether what we see at MFD is an unrepresentative sampling, it is a self-selected sample. It is a sample consisting of the most blatant tendentious submitters. It is the tail to the distribution, but it is the tail to the distribution. (Let me know if you want a Stat 1 explanation of that.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I think this is an really annoying problem to many, and an obvious solution is to de-fluff the decline templates, and to introduce a hard reject template.

Another idea is to put a “request for feedback” button before the submit button.

Another idea, guessing that resubmitters are not taking the submit button seriously enough, thinking they assume it is the mean for seeking comment on improvement, is to reword it as “I think this draft is ready to be an article”.

—SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Robert McClenon about point 1. For a number of obvious reasons that I can enumerate if requested, we can't expect competent drafts from all newcomers, The wiki way is to improve incompetent material and to learn as you go. We should not be discouraging contributions or biting the hands that deliver them. ~Kvng (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I am aware of that User:Kvng and I have different philosophical views about clueless new editors. I know. I see three classes of editors who come in at AFC, two of which overlap: knowledgeable or semi-knowledgeable; clueless; self-serving; and clueless and self-serving. We agree about the first, but that is not the issue. He sees, in the second, third, and fourth classes, editors who have not yet learned how to write competent drafts and need patience and help. I see editors who either are not here to contribute to the encyclopedia because they are here to contribute to themselves, or who are not here because they are inherently clueless. He may be right about the clueless editors; maybe with enough patience they will acquire a clue. Maybe. However, I cannot bring myself to think that self-serving editors will learn how to be useful neutral contributors to Wikipedia. Maybe User:Kvng has a different mind-set about the self-serving editors, or maybe he hasn't seen as many of them (because he has been elsewhere in Wikipedia) as I have. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:54, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I respect that we have different assumptions about these contributors. I know that there's an effort to block and delete contributions from bad-faith editors and I believe doing so improves the quality of the encyclopedia. I recognise that I personally am not able to reliably identify these actors and so have to concentrate on the material without much regard for the contributor. I understand that others are more confident about their assessment of other editors and our fine wiki culture accepts bold behaviors so I'm not going to be trout slapping anyone for straying from WP:AGF and WP:BITE. ~Kvng (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I accept far more drafts than I send to MfD, but I also work the ones that others pass over, (perhaps afraid to accept?) and actively seek problematic Drafts to MfD. We will always attract the incompetant, self serving newbies and we need to be clear with them. A clearer message on what Submit means may help - I was involved in improving the text recently around the submit button. Any concrete suggestions should be brought forward. Legacypac (talk) 11:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Help evaluate sources in Japanese

If you are able to read Japanese please help to evaluate Notability for Draft:Kyoko Nakajima. Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Embassy and https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_for_Non-Japanese_Speakers might be able to help.--occono (talk) 00:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Notice When Moved Draft Is Tagged for G13

I just got another two nice notices from Twinkle saying that drafts that I started had been nominated for speedy deletion as G13. I didn't start them. I moved them from sandboxes to draft space. Is there a way that Twinkle could be improved to notify the real originator of the draft? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This happened to me also. Additional findings from this experience were that these notices are posted minutes or hours before deletion so there is a very small windows where an author could intervene as suggested. The best recourse is WP:REFUND and these notices should say so. ~Kvng (talk) 19:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree, that including instructions for undeleting the draft should be included. Speedy deletion is speedy, and so usually happens minutes to hours after the tagging. In the case of G11, or any of the speedy criteria in article space, the creator may have time to contest the deletion. With G13, they likely haven't logged in for weeks or even months. The notice should explain how to request undeletion, since challenging the G13 isn't feasible. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:31, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This is just another example of things not working the way they should because there's simply no way to fix it. How does the bot/script/etc know that the page creator isn't the person who wrote the article? There isn't. Sometimes we get XFD/decline notices that make no sense - best to just undo and/or move it to the proper user talk page. Primefac (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

User:Shadowowl pointed out to me that Twinkle did notify both the mover (me) and the original creator. If the original creator is notified, giving them instructions on how to request undeletion is appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Kvng: The old notification bot was taken down and it is taking a while for the new bot to get approved. Therefore there is a backlog of articles for which it is not possible to send notificatins before they are eligible for immediate deletion. Currently Bot0612 is doing test notifications on articles that are already eligible but notifications were never sent. Once it is approved and works through the backlog, it should send out notifications a month before the articles are actually eligible for deletion. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Should we put G13 deletions on hold until we can get this sorted through? Shadowowl is unable to modify the notification message. It would seem like it would be best to just let things rest for a bit until we can get things tested and running smoothly again. ~Kvng (talk) 00:43, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

The template is Template:Db-draft-notice. -- » Shadowowl | talk 07:15, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Absolutely no need to put G13 on hold. The old bot only dealt with some AfC drafts anyway, many were tagged by humans, and much of the backlog is non-AFC tagged drafts that must be tagged for G13 by a human. Why not tag a few pages everyday Wikipedia:Database reports/Stale drafts. Every day a page sits untagged is another day some bot or awb or dab fixed comes along and resets the clock on the junk (it can still be tagged G13, but when no longer reported it gets much harder to find) . Legacypac (talk) 09:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft Create-Protected

I reviewed a sandbox and, as usual, tried to move it to draft space. I found that the draft title was create-protected. (I don't know whether the title is also salted in article space.) I declined the draft with comments that it does not satisfy biographical notability or political notability. I also mentioned that the draft title was create-protected, and to check with the deleting administrator. I haven't previously encountered the situation of a draft title that was create-protected. (Article titles that are create-protected, while not common, are not rare.) Does anyone have any advice about this situation? I would appreciate any comments either on the general situation, or the specific, which is User:Nonnahs SMS/sandbox, which should be Draft:Moses Sanchez. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This is really unusual. The mainspace article already exists as a redirect to Phoenix mayoral election, 2018, as the subject is a candidate in that election. The subject is possibly notable (although that user-space draft is nowhere near ready), and if it were in draftspace multiple editors could work on it to get it ready for mainspace. Pinging RHaworth to see if this can be unsalted. Bradv 23:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, good decline, Robert McClenon! The page had already been created in mainspace, later redirected by Boleyn (good call!). Nonnahs is a marketing company, apparently run by Shannon and Moses Sanchez; I've reported the username to WP:UAA both for shared use and for being a promotion-only account. As the log history at Draft:Moses Sanchez shows, it was protected by RHaworth because of repeated re-creation (and that looks like yet another good call!). It seems to me that everything is working as it should in this one isolated case. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:52, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

In view of the history of the draft, it is a tainted draft, and I will be nominating it for MFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Ignore the history of that draft for a minute and take a look at these sources. These are all "reliable sources that are independent of the subject", which may make this qualify for WP:GNG.

• https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2018/01/16/republican-moses-sanchez-enters-phoenix-mayoral-race/1030343001/
• http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/republican-moses-sanchez-is-running-for-mayor-of-phoenix-10046547
• http://www.ahwatukee.com/news/article_2e1d511a-6f36-11e8-9d12-ffd31f3fa3f3.html
• https://downtowndevil.com/2018/01/17/88727/moses-sanchez-announces-bid-for-mayor/

I think an article can be written here, although I probably wouldn't start with the draft at hand. Bradv 23:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Weird talk page thing

When I declined this draft, I don't know how this happened - but it notified a non-existent user named User:AIAawards. At first I thought this might be a very quick user rename, but I don't see anything in the user rename log. Does anybody know why this happened? Am I missing something?--SkyGazer 512 ^{Oh no, what did I do this time?} 02:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm guessing you didn't look at the draft's history? The author made only two edits, one of which was to change the username in the AfC submission template, so when you declined it 1.5 hours later, the new "name" was who got notified. Now, as to why the editor did it, well, they were just trying to be correct, it seems, as this is an obvious cut and paste from https://www.aiaawards.com/about. So, thanks? I've G12'd. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 10:30, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

My desire to help others started when a gentleman called me UNICEF.

I was not always the brightest bulb in the kitchen, but strive to be a decent respectful human being. I did not treat my friends fairly because I felt like an emotional wreck. Up and down like a baby crying in his stroller. I was once the tallest students from JK to Grade 1. I saw something carrying a hammer in the winter wonderland we call Canada's greatest past time. To be continued... — Preceding unsigned comment added by TorontoLivesMatter1986 (talk • contribs) 23:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

There is no rule! That’s it.

Hi, i have added certain and true source after rejecting article( Laya Abbasmirzaei) such as news, imdb, festival, image , books, video...,,and resubmitted it again,regretfully I am waiting for manyyyyyy days ago for a volunteer to review it !! Why ?! Fighting12 (talk) 03:02, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Fighting12 hello, you have posted the same message on WP:AFCHD. Please post only one place as all of us are volunteers and provide our service and help to fallow Wikipedians on our own free time, it would waste the helpers time to answer the same question in two places. Your question will be answer on the draft page and in the Article for Creation Help Desk. Thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 06:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Laya Abbasmirzaei

When volunteers decide to reject an article they do it immediately!!! But when an article has been change and edit and adding with sources they don’t want cheak it Apparently!!!!! Fighting12 (talk) 03:08, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Fighting12 Please read the above message and do note Article for Creation has backlog of more than 1K and it might take 4/5 weeks before the page is reveiwed. Article for creation is not the only place reviewers need to assesses the acceptance of an article in Wikipedia, we have backlog of 4K in New Page as well and at times it would take many months before pages would be reveiwed. Do note again, we are volunteers here. Please be patient. Thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 06:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Network-based diffusion analysis

Can someone please take a look at this draft and advise what WikiProject should be asked to review it? Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:50, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Unnamed fireboat, North Kingstown, RI

This draft seems to have a history of being moved between user space and draft space.

Can someone please take a look at this draft and comment on whether it satisfies general notability guidelines (in the absence of an applicable notability guideline)? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Module:AFC submission catcheck

Notifying that I have requested the module to be moved to Module:AFC submission check. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 17:41, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyvio Checks are not Optional

I am concerned that some copyvio submissions are being accepted and moved into mainspace. Running copyvio checks on these submissions, especially if the prose in some places seems choppy and basic, and in other places florid, detailed, and full of adjectives, is essential.

I may have more followup on this later if the patterns I'm seeing here bear more specific notation, but either way, this is an issue we have to stay on top of. Thanks. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:48, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft Needing Copy-Edit

This may be a two-part question. First, I accepted a draft because I was satisfied of notability and neutrality. I decline far more drafts than I accept, mostly for notability reasons, sometimes for tone or promotionality reasons, and sometimes because I do not have a clue what the submission is. I understand that a reviewer normally accepts a draft based on confidence that it will survive a deletion discussion, and I am reasonably satisfied that anything about the nineteenth century that is properly documented should survive a deletion discussion. It was then moved back to draft space by another reviewer because it needed heavy copy-edit, and had many spelling errors and sentence faults. My first question is: Was that a valid reason to draftify it from article space, or should it have been tagged as needing copy-edit? I admit that I wasn't paying as much attention to grammar and spelling as I sometimes do, but I was glad to see a clue as to what is an encyclopedic topic.

The second question is: Will other editors please take a look at Draft:Arikara scouts? Thank you.

Robert McClenon (talk) 21:04, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

• I was just looking at the same issue (due to other concerns)... I'm not aware of any guideline that says the writing style and clean-up issues are reasons to draftify? This just muddies the waters even more than the other recent issues as to what some people think the acceptance criteria for AfC should be. I'm with Robert on this one, I think it was a pass for notability and thus AfC - clean up should have been done or tagged in main-space. In an ideal world if all articles had to reach a good standard in all aspects in Draft before going to main that would be great, but that is not how Wikipeida works. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

• I just cleaned it up and sent it back to mainspace. None of the errors I fixed were sufficient to justify a draftification. While I concede that an exceptionally poorly written article could be appropriately draftified, the writing would have to interfere with understanding meaningfully. In this case, the poorness of the writing was insufficient to send it back to draft, and it should have just been tagged in mainspace. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
• Courtesy ping: @CorbieVreccan: Tazerdadog (talk) 21:40, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the cleanup and ping, Tazerdadog. This is all I was asking for - basic cleanup on the glaring issues before it lands in mainspace.

There are very few of us who are active at any one time in the Indigenous wikiproject who can vet the deeper sourcing and accuracy concerns on these articles, and when inaccurate new articles are created without any of us knowing about it, they tend to sit there, full of mistakes, for a long time unless someone pings us. Right now I'm doing deeper cleanup on another submission by this user. I think they are a student who means well, but there are a lot of problems with both the sources they are using and their lack of familiarity with the Indigenous communities. Every one of these needs a pretty thorough rewrite for accuracy and outdated (and at times offensive) cultural terminology. This can get tiring when a student is determined to create content but has these ongoing issues.

I have encouraged the user to participate more at the wikiproject. Thanks again for your cooperation here. Best, - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:56, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Minor cleanup is not a valid reason to draftily an article. CorbieVreccan, if you find a draft that need copyediting, either fix it, leave it alone, or change the guidance for AfC reviewers. GMG^talk 22:24, 23 June 2018 (UTC)