Talk:United Kingdom

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This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

WikiProject Countries articles as of April 5, 2024

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• 20 Jun 2024 – Xianbei (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Kepler-1229b (t · c); see discussion
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• 02 Jan 2023 – Prince-Bishopric of Lübeck (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Srnec (t · c); see discussion
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Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Wikipedia, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

Navigation

This WikiProject helps Wikipedia's navigation-related WikiProjects (Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Wikipedia's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Subpages

• List of all subpages of this page.

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Wikipedia, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

Main article: Country

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

See also: WP:Lead section

Opening paragraphs

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article).

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting, may be dealt with in the Etymology or History section. Naming disputes may also belong in the Etymology or History section.

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article.

Example: . Canada and Japan as below .

Y A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.

N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Y Japan is a highly developed country and a great power, with one of the largest economies by nominal GDP. Japan has renounced its right to declare war, though it maintains a self-defense force that ranks as one of the world's strongest militaries. A global leader in the automotive, robotics, and electronics industries, the country has made significant contributions to science and technology, and is one of the world's largest exporters and importers. It is part of multiple major international and intergovernmental institutions.

N Japan is a member of numerous international organizations, including the United Nations (since 1956), the OECD, and the Group of Seven. Although it has renounced its right to declare war, the country maintains Self-Defense Forces that rank as 10th for military expenditure by country, After World War II, Japan experienced record growth in an economic miracle, becoming the second-largest economy in the world by 1990. As of 2021, the country's economy is the third-largest by nominal GDP, the fourth-largest by PPP and ranked "very high" on the Human Development Index.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. [[Template:CountryName Infobox]]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

• The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
• The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
• A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
• A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
• Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
• The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
• The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
• The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
• If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
• Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
• Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
• GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
• HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
• Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: [[Australian dollar|dollar]].
• Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
• National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
• Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
• Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.

Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

Further information: Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Too much detail

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

• Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
• History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
• Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
• Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available. The CIA World Factbook Maps can be used as a basis for the map, but plenty of other sources are available.
• Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
• Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
• Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
• Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
• See also – Aim to include relevant information within the article and reduce the See also section See WP:See also. ('See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s)).
• References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
• External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links

Size

Main pages: Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Summary style § Article size

Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually four paragraphs as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.

• Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
• Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
• Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,936 words) "readable prose size"
• Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
• Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
• East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8152 words) "readable prose size"
• Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9092 words) "readable prose size"
• New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9761 words) "readable prose size"
• Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9178 words) "readable prose size"

Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

== Politics ==
{{main|Politics of the Netherlands}}

Charts

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams such as economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraphs, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

Further information: Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

• Transcluded text may have no sources for statements that should be sourced where they appear, have different established reference styles, contain no-text cite errors, or duplicate key errors. (To help mitigate these, see Help:Cite errors)
• Excerpts break the link between article code and article output.
• Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page.
• Transcluded text may cause repeated links or have different varieties of English and date formats than the target page.
• Transclusions may not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. See Cascading protection
• {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained.
• Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for "section heading" changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. (To help mitigate this, see MOS:BROKENSECTIONLINKS)
• Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

• Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
• Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Wikipedia articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Wikipedia articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Related WikiProjects

• WikiProject Former countries
• WikiProject Micronations
• WikiProject Limited recognition

Popular pages

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Popular pages

Template:WP1.0

Major Cities

I've added Newcastle to the list of major cities with over 250 000 inhabitants, given that it is one of the country's most important cities and the Wiki for it put the population at around 280 000.

Newcastle upon Tyne does not have an urban population above 250,000 - it's quite small at 189,863. You may be thinking of the entire Tyneside conurbation, which also includes other towns such as Gateshead, or alternatively the larger local government area named after Newcastle (its seat and largest settlement) that includes a rural population. Fingerpuppet 16:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

References tidy-up

I have tidied up all the references into a standard format using the {{cite}} template as this was one of the major concerns at the last FAC review.
→ Aktar ^{(talk • contribs)} — 23:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Fishing/Snooker

Reading the sports section, I was suprised to see no mention of fishing, as from what I understand, it is the sport that is most actively participated in, I don't have any data to support this, but perhaps a sport guru might be able to prove/disprove this. If it is true, then I believe it is worth a mention. Also there was no mention of snooker, which I always thought was very popular (although less so now than in the 1980's), and I was led to believe was created in the UK. I'm not a writer or researcher, so I apologise if this is incorrect, and will not add this myself, but hope that these will be considered for inclusion 213.48.1.172 03:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

UK's oldest newspaper

In the media part is says that the Belfast Telegraph is the oldest newspaper still running, started in 1860. But the Stamford and Rutland newspaper, which i recieve, dates back to the 1600s. Its kinda well known if you know what your looking for. Please update. --84.66.18.84 16:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is incorrect - the oldest daily newspaper is not the Belfast Telegraph but the Belfast News Letter, with the article of the latter stating it was first published in 1737. Is the newspaper you mention a daily? Jonto 22:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have made the correction. Jonto 22:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed the newspaper you mention does claim to be the "oldest in Britain", but it looks like it is published every Friday? Is this correct? Jonto 22:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

External link for UK

I would like to suggest adding this UKwebsite to the external links section of the article. i've found it very useful for keeping in touch with the latest news and events information for individual regions in the UK. The website also features personal blogs written by people from all over the UK. Let me know what you think. (MW1983 10:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

I would tend to be opposed, it's a commercial site run by Northcliffe as a holder for mortgage/property ads, etc. Generally Wikipedia is opposed to adding commercial links. The photos on it are nice though! MarkThomas 11:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am a bit surprised at the paucity of the existing external links and particularly at the lack of a prominent link to the UK version of bbc.co.uk. Is that commercial opposition, really a clear policy on WP? I tend to be a bit on the inclusionist wing myself since it's always easier to delete rather than include. However, I am very conscious of the `wood-for-the-trees' argument and would also respectfully point out that now EVERY non-WP hyperlink has been HTML no-followed, we have less to fear from (knowledgeable) self-publicists.

I do compliment MW1983 on bringing this to the talk page first and MarkThomas for his moderate and thoughtful response. Can anyone think of any other suitable `one-stop-shop' source for the photos?...Gaimhreadhan^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 12:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct term for a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Hi, question from WikiProject Formula One. Appreciating that this is likely to be a sensitive point, is there an agreed approach anywhere to the use of the term 'British' to describe a citizen of the UKoGBaBNI? It's being discussed at talk:Eddie Irvine and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One#UK_Nationality. To my mind British is what's in the passport and I can't see what other term could be used, but I imagine you've been over this one countless times already, so I was hoping someone could point me to a guideline. Cheers. 4u1e 12:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the specific objection that's been raised is to the use of 'British' as the nationality of a driver from Northern Ireland. 4u1e 13:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

'British' is the adjective of the United Kingdom. It's the official term used, not just in the passport but in legislation (e.g. British Nationality Act). Bastin 14:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, British citizenship is what everybody born in NI automatically gets; they may also have Irish citizenship if they want it (I'm not sure if that still applies since the Good Friday Agreement in 1997, but it did before), but that would be for the individual to obtain. -- Arwel (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that officially there are no citizens of Britain, we are all subjects.(80.189.224.209 15:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

Nonsense. My passport quite explicitly says "British citizen", and so does the British Nationality Act 1981. -- Arwel (talk) 16:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to disagree with any of the above, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "X is a UK citizen" if the word "British" is deprecated. (It's unwieldy and often harder to work in smoothly, of course.) Doops | talk 15:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

My main objection to that is that the vast majority of people in Britain prefer our current system of rule to a republic (the figures are even in this article) therefore the use of the word citizen is not only factually incorrect, but most people in Britain prefer to be subjects.(80.189.224.209 15:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

People born in Northern Ireland are triply blessed: they automatically become citizens of the EU, UK and Ireland providing at least one of their parents had at least one of the three statuses. Even if none of their parents were so blessed, they may still obtain at least two citizenships by descent from at least one Grandparent. My own situation is somewhat unique since I was born in an area whose county status was unclarified at the time of partition and thus I have an Irish driving licence that states I was born in Northern Ireland and a Commonwealth driving licence (NOT NI) that states I was born in the Republic of Ireland. Since both licences use the EU model codes of GBR for Northern Ireland and IRL for the Republic, I must be almost unique in having TWO misleading driving licences! At least I'm able to just say I'm Irish without distinguishing the two different entities. God help me when the retina scan ID cards begin their rollout!

People driving cars registered in NI also have a problem with what to stick on the back of their cars. Both IRL and GB are technically incorrect for different reasons! ...Gaimhreadhan^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 16:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Whilst you are correct to state that the vast majority of Britons are loyal to Her Majesty, it is incorrect to state that we are subjects. That is a lie perpetuated by republicans, who (consequently) claim that he don't have the same sort of status that (say) French or American people have. However, the status of 'British citizen' has existed since 1949. Since that date, 'British subject' has been a different legal term. Since the British Nationality Act 1983, British citizens are no longer British subjects; almost all subjects nowadays are connected to the legacies of the Irish Free State and British India. Nonetheless, the term 'subject' retains a meaning pertaining to its original etymology, i.e. one that owes allegiance. Hence, one is a citizen of the United Kingdom, but a subject of Her Majesty. Bastin 16:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, as usual, Bastin. Used to comes in very useful if you wanted to hang anyone for treason (did you hear about the Pitcairn defence)? Sorry for being delayed in saving my previous response and jumping in out of order...Gaimhreadhan^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 16:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of the law which calls us British Citizens, but that is as far as it goes, it is merely a label introduced to differentiate people in different countries of the commonwealth. Just because we are called citizens does not mean that we are, nor do we fulfil many criteria of what a citizen is. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, but I want to call it a sheep, it's still a duck.(80.189.224.209 16:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

Neatly sidestepping the issues of whether we're citizens or subjects (interesting, but not directly relevant here!), it sounds like we're on solid ground describing the nationality as 'British' then? (I'd avoid 'X is a UK citizen' only because I don't think it's normal usage, which is usually the key at Wikipedia, and because it's inconvenient to fit into an infobox). The editor who raised this has since conceded the point anyway, I believe he was thinking of the geographic distinction, by which Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. Thanks to all. 4u1e 21:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Use of 'Public Education' is confusing

I found this quite confusing in the article as I would imagine most people in Britain and myself would read this as private education, could it be changed to 'State Education' so not to be ambiguous and to still be understandable by the rest of the world. (80.189.224.209 15:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

Good solution!...Gaimhreadhan^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 16:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Occupies?

The first paragraph of the lead section currently states: "It occupies all of the island of Great Britain and the north-east part of the island of Ireland." I understand that the term 'to occupy' can mean "to take or fill up", "to be a resident or tenant of; dwell in", "to take possession and control of" and "to take or hold possession", that it can be neutral. But in regards to the Troubles of Northern Ireland, I don't think the word occupies to refer to "the north-east part of the island of Ireland" is an apt choice of words. It carries too much of a connotation. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Easily fixed. Thanks! Doops | talk 01:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Culture vs. Economy

Good article!
People often discuss a country / sovereign state in terms of its economic power / influence, at the expense of its cultural output / influence. Of course, in many senses, a country's economic strength is linked to its cultural "exports". Catholicism, for example, could be seen (amongst a great deal of other things) as one of Italy's most successful cultural exports.
In a sense, I'm proud to be British not because of the Empire, but because of (for example) William Shakespeare. Subsequently I feel that the intro to the article perhaps stresses the diminishing of Britain's status in global affairs as a result of the decline of Empire at the expense of a more positive take on things: the article, in its introduction, could alternatively be stressing the consistently successful cultural output / influence of Britain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.152.82.198 (talk) 16:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

That Britain's global status is not what it used to be 100 years ago is a very key piece of information about the country, and objectively verifiable. Cultural "success", on the other hand, is a matter of opinion - you may consider British cultural influence abroad to be a success, others may find it a legacy of unwelcome Western colonial aggression. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Britain's cultural influence doesn't necessarily have to be good for it to be successful. Whether it is good or not is obviously a matter of opinion, but it is a fact that it is successful.(80.189.121.40 19:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC))

How are you defining "success" though? "Blair/Bush was a successful Prime Minister/President. Discuss.". How many different answers would stem from those questions? Again, your definition of success may not be mine. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 19:38, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not discussing the success, or lack of, of a Blair/Bush administration and that is a hugely different question, quite what their objectives were are unclear therefore you can't even begin to quantify the success. On the subject of British cultural influence however it is far easier to see the 'success' as you can clearly see the huge impact Britain has had on the rest of the world. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Britain's cultural influence has had a big impact on the rest of the world, personally I don't see how anyone can argue this hasn't been successful as this was obviously the aim when Britain went out to make itself an empire. Without Britain the vast majority of people in this world would be living entirely different lives today, imagine a world without the British colonies, a Europe without Britain's involvement in war, a western world without industrialisation, an eastern world without trade to the west, a third world without an underclass and you have a completely different world. At no point have I ever mentioned whether I think British cultural influence is a good, bad or indifferent thing, but surely to deny it's success is insanity.(80.189.121.40 00:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick" above, is, of course, not suggesting that British cultural influence abroad is a legacy of unwelcome Western colonial aggression. The suggestion is that others may feel this. I just wanted to add that if anyone, anywhere, thinks that William Shakespeare's influence is a legacy of unwelcome Western colonial aggression, they are undoubtedly an idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.209.159 (talk • contribs)

Article is too long

I added the verylong tag but it seems to have been removed. Well, the article is 112 kb, which is obviously 'very long', even for a country article. Most of the sections can do with some trimming, particularly culture and demography. Look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries for guidelines and countries that are featured articles. Christopher Connor 19:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it is! I had pointed this out in an earlier (unresolved) discussion too. Lets work toward a summary style article. AJ-India 03:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Seems to be a dearth of sources for many statements. Is this typically so in these types of article? Candy 04:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Chronologically challenged?

"Economically costly wartime loans, loans taken in 1945 from the United States..."

Is this referring to the loan arranged by Keynes? If so, I thought this was after the war not during the war (albeit by a few months) which doesn't make them wartime loans! Has anyone got a reference or information to back up whar is stated in the article? Candy 04:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Ulster Banner

This appears twice in this article as the flag of Northern Ireland, this is not and never was the flag of the state, it was the banner of the Government of the Northern Ireland Parliament between 1953 and 1973 when that government was disbanded by the British Government and replaced under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act, 1973. Since that time the banner has had no official use and cannot be used in any official capicity in Northern Ireland. The Union Banner is the only official flag in Northern ireland.--padraig3uk 14:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Tell EUFA and FIFA. NI still uses this flag in sports competitions. --Guinnog 14:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Commonwealth Games also use this flag? Thunderwing 14:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

EUFA, FIFA and the Commonwealth games all use the symbol provided by the countries sports bodies, they don't convey any legitimacy on the symbol provided. The Ulster banner ceased to exist in any official capitity with the disbanding of the Northern Ireland House of Commons and its government, under British constitutional law the flag was of the government and not the state. The Union Flag is the only official flag that can be used to represent Northern Ireland today, and WP should present that fact and not the POV of certain editors promoting the use of the Ulster Banner.--padraig3uk 14:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that is your opinion. However there are other opinions which it is only fair to take into account when editing.--Guinnog 17:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Either the official flag should be use or none, my edit is removing POV and mis-representation of the facts.--padraig3uk 18:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no official flag of England, either. Are we suggesting that we get rid of that? Bastin 19:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The British government wouldn't agree with your statement:

This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:

Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:

What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]

18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181

Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.

(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.

(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.

(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.

For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [1]

So in accordance to the Government the Flags of England, Scotland and Wales are recognised, but not the Ulster Banner.--padraig3uk 20:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be misquoting horrendously. "There is no legislation that governs ... the English flag (St George's cross)". How on Earth does that prove that the English flag is recognised by the Government? Bastin 21:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It says There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross), it dosen't say the flag isn't recognised, don't you think it strange that they only mentions the Union Banner, the flags of England Scotland and wales, but not the Ulster banner, in fact it is made very clear that the only offical flag for Northern Ireland is the Union Banner, whereas for the others it dosen't say that.--padraig3uk 21:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with your interpretation of this debate. It confirms to me that all four UK nations' flags are unofficial, which I already knew. I don't think this is a mandate for you to selectively remove all instances of the Ulster Banner from Wikipedia, although it might be an interesting data-point at WP:FLAG. --Guinnog 22:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It has never been my intention to remove all instances of the Ulster Banner, just from templates and articles that represent or protray Northern Ireland today or since 1972, I have added the Ulster Banner to this template I created Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72 so don't see where this idea comes from that I want to remove the flag completely.--padraig3uk 11:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Please stop removing this padraig3uk - the consensus is above is that it's all unofficial. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 17:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is NOT the Flag of Northern Ireland to state that it is is POV. Please see the Northern Ireland article and talk page for full details. regards--Vintagekits 19:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere does this purport to be stating that this is the official flag of Northern Ireland. It's just a graphic. There is no need for either of you to get ants in your pants about it. I'd also enjoy hearing you explain away the flag's presence on Britannica's page [2]. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 19:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't need consensus to remove false information or POV from articles in WP, the Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, and never was as it was the flag of the disbanded government of Northern Ireland that was suspended in 1972 and abolished in 1973, under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973.--padraig3uk 19:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Why should we care what Britannica uses as the Flag of Northern Ireland? By using the UB as the FoNI you are portorting it to be the FoNI - that is incorrect and will not be tolerated.--Vintagekits 20:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Will not be tolerated"? Who died and put you in charge? In this present debate it's 3 - possibly 4 - (who are of the opinion that this is not trying to state anything "official") against 2. So presently you and padraig are in the minority. I'm not going to get in an edit war with you, but still, WP works on consensus, not on people getting bees in their bonnets. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 22:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

WP has a policy of removing POV, and that articles containing such can be edited to make them comply to NPOV, the same applies to removing false information, no consensus is needed for this.--padraig3uk 22:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

You'd have a tough time arguing POV when the NI football association uses it as its flag. And it's not "false" because nowhere does it state that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland, or indeed that any of the flags are official. As I say, I'm not going to revert it, but if the other editors that were party to this debate return and deem it should stay, I'll be siding with them. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 00:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The table in the article is for admistrative areas of the UK, you are using a flag in the Northern Ireland section, that the British Government dosen't even recognise, and one that the government removed from existance when it disbanded the government whosflag it was in 1973, as for Encyclopdeia Britannica it says: According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner...--padraig3uk 20:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Parliamentary democracy?

The United Kingdom is not a democracy. Democracy means "Rule by the people". There is no point pretending that ordinary people are constitutionally tasked with making or altering the laws of the land. They aren't, and therefore the country is not a democracy. The UK has a system of representative government. Democracy is not representative government. The two terms describe two different things. The term representative government is accurate as a description of the UK's type of government (Will anybody come forward to dispute that?). The use of the word "democracy" as a description of our system of government is pure propaganda.
jonathan riley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonathanriley (talk • contribs) 21:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

• It is a term analogous to Parliamentary system. Thunderwing 21:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I have just amended it to precisely that!
I dispute that the two terms mean the same things though.
jonathan riley 21:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks- Parliamentary democracy was a re-direct to Parliamentary system in any case- however it is always better to use direct links. Thunderwing 21:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • There is no such thing as a democracy by your definition. There are no countries that are ruled by the people. In the UK, you can vote for your leader--which makes it a democracy by most people's definition. Loyh 17:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanriley obviously misunderstands that the use of the term "democracy" is not limited to its literal translation. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 00:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• The United Kingdom shouldn't probably be referred to as a democracy unqualified. 'Representative democracy', however, is rather fine. 'Parliamentary democracy' implies 'representative democracy', as Parliament is a form of representation. Digwuren 07:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  

Digwuren,
What's wrong with stating that we have a Parliamentary System. That term has the virtues of being both specific and uncontested.
jonathan riley 19:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not see anything wrong with that, at least for now. Digwuren 20:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Loyh,
: There is no such thing as a democracy by your definition.
That is not the point at issue.
: There are no countries that are ruled by the people.
I'm not trying to say anything about other countries when I'm editing a page about the United Kingdom.
: In the UK, you can vote for your leader
That is factually incorrect.
: which makes it a democracy by most people's definition.
I did say that the use of the word "democracy" as a description of our system of government is propaganda. Government and media propaganda has obviously worked very well, hasn't it. This oughtn't to come as a surprise. I hope that Wikipedia can help to cut through such sophistry, and call a spade a spade.

The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick,
: Jonathanriley obviously misunderstands that the use of the term "democracy" is not limited to its literal translation.
Please write in plain, coherent English. Then I will feel confident about exactly what you mean, and can take your point on. "... Misunderstands that... " for instance is just horrible, and dealing with such imprecisely expressed thoughts is like nailing blancmange to a wall. Sorry if this seems bitchy, I don't want to get into a flamewar.
jonathan riley

Representative government is a form of democracy. A word today might well not mean the same as it did when it was first coined - in other words, what it meant to the Greeks may not be exactly what it means to us. This does not mean the word is used wrongly today, it simply means the meaning has changed. Look in a modern dictionary and you'll find a reference to "a system of representation" or elections as a form of democracy. For example, Merriam-Webster - not my favourite dictionary but handily on the Internet - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/democracy Hobson 01:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hobson,
: it simply means the meaning [of the word "democracy"] has changed.
The dictionary definition you yourself have linked to above has as its first entry:
1a: government by the people; especially: rule of the majority[.]
It appears to me that by saying, "the meaning [of the word] has changed", you have tried to suggest that the word democracy no longer means rule by the people. That is not true; it means precisely that as the primary definition in the dictionary you cite, and as the only definition for me, and for others I have spoken with too.
: Representative government is a form of democracy.
The ordinary people of this country have no direct say in what passes for law. That is the truth, and such words could not be spoken in a democracy.
jonathan riley 05:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The fact that it is the dictionary I cited is not relevant - this is not a personal battle of wills between me and you. I am suggesting the definition in this dictionary tells us both what the word means. I don't understand what you mean by primary definition - Merriam Webster says "1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections". Both usuages of the word are correct, according to Merriam Webster (both a and b). Furthermore, the fact that power may be exercised through a system of representation involving elections is not usually taken to mean that supreme power is not vested in the people, as the defifition makes clear.Hobson 14:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• jonathan riley, you appear to be pushing an exclusivist meaning for democracy. It is not a good idea, and the changes to the meaning of the word have removed some of the exclusions you're suggesting. Furthermore, as to your suggestion that the inherent absurdity of a word not having any real meaning is "not an issue here", well, it is absurd. Digwuren 07:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  

Hobson,
: I don't understand what you mean by primary definition
I concede that my words two lines previous to those you quote, ie. "has as its first entry" were better chosen.
: supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation...
Surely you can see how convoluted that is. How can a Jane exercise power by relinquishing it to John? It is a fatuous notion. In the real world, you cannot exercise power if somebody else has taken it away from you.
jonathan riley 20:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a debate about whether modern understandings of democracy are convulted, make sense or simply wrong. That would be an interesting topic for discussion on many message boards, but that's not what this talk page is for. You are expressing a personal opinion about whether what we call democracy in the modern world *should* be called democracy, and it's an interesting opinion. But all that matters when it comes to writing this article is what the word *does* mean. I'm sorry but it does seem to me that you are presing a personal point of view. Don't assume I disagree with your point of view. However it's not relevant to how we should approach writing a Wikipedia article.Hobson 21:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hobson,
Thankyou for so pointedly running away from a short question.
I did make the suggestion to Digwuren above that the use of the term, "Parliamentary System" is both specific and uncontested. Digwuren graciously agreed that it may at least for a while be satisfactory. How do you feel about that?
jonathan riley 01:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. When you reply to someone, can you reply underneath them with a colon or colons, so it is clear which point you are responding to? If the comment you are replying to has a colon, then you use two - if it has two then you use three.Hobson 22:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Like this!Hobson 22:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be sarcastic. This is not a forum for debating, scoring points or trying to prove who's right and who's wrong. These talk pages are designed to help create a consenus. I tried to explain why I wasn't answering your question - it makes no difference whether or not I think a system in which people elect other people to make decisions for them can truly be called a democracy. What;s important for the purposes of this article is that it *is* called a democracy. As for what the article should say, I believe parliamentary system is accurate but parliamentary democracy is equally accurate and more specific. It's possible to have a parliamentary system which is not democratic.Hobson 22:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The US Department of State website on the UK says "the Commonwealth helps preserve many institutions deriving from British experience and models, such as parliamentary democracy, in those countries." and indeed this organisation is set up to do exactly that, with its motto "Contributing to parliamentary democracy throughout the Commonwealth". The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 22:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Digwuren,
: "not an issue here"
I never used those words, which you have wrongly attributed to me as a direct quote. I'll take your points on if you will kindly stop putting words in my mouth.
jonathan riley 20:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree in saying that the UK is not a 'good' democracy, but neither are many countries that claim to be democratic and actually don't rig elections and allow freedom of speech. However the statement that 'Democracy is rule by the people' in a summary is, bull sh**. Communism would claim to be rule by the people directly (e.g. Peoples' Republic of China), democracy has never claimed this to be the case either in the past (at the time of Athens) or in the present. In Athens democracy was twice as corrupt as it is now, democracy has always been corrupt and open to fraud of those who wish to take advantage, but in most cases (unless this constitutes despotism or oligarchical rule) it is still a democracy. In todays terms, disregarding whatever the base meaning is, the UK is accepted as a democracy, where people have the right to vote to determine their future, and where parties with differing ideas are allowed (unlike say the communist parties where you may get the communist workers party, the communist democratic workers party etc.), to be quite blunt in this sense what you currently consider to be democracy is irrelavant in the world.

The other point I have to make is that removing the fact that democracy, as you so name it, is not the defenition of most countries and bodies (such as the UN), the actual meaning of democracy is not 'rule by the people' unless in a very indirect sense. Ever since democracy was formed in Greece, and the word was formed, no one realistically expected an anarchy where every man ruled the country independent of a leader, in greece, if you recall, they voted for a patriarch via depositing pebbled stones into bags, pretty much something along the system most countries have today, though a little more primative. 'Rule by the people' is an idead laid claim to by the idea of the dictorship of the proletairiat that Marx put forward and the eventual transition to a type of utopian anarchy (anarchy is not meant in a derogatary sense here). Here is your correct defenition of democracy, that I think most would agree with, though it is purely original research using my common sense 'Democracy is power of the people, power of the people to have the right to influence the governing body (which is representative of their opinions) and change the line their country follows'. The actual wikipedia defenition includes "Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system." However, you may not accept this defenition although pretty much every encylopidia has something along these lines. This does not make democracy ideal or perfect by any means, nor am i saying proportional representation in the UK is neccessarily fair, but technically, it is a democracy as the people have freedom and rights, and namely the right to influence their countries leadership.

When the word democracy was devised in Greek it may have had liks to 'rule of the people' but ever since its foundation in Grreece it was practically accepted by all citizens of Athens that all this meant (and all that happened) was that the people now had some power to change their countries policies, through representation of a party (in Athens one leader). In a broad spectrum this is the same as 'rule of the people' because the decisions of the people (even in this country, the UK) do ultimately rule over what line the country takes even if not in a completly direct sense. Unless there is some kind of crackpot conspiracy theory of rigged elections and illuminati you've got up your sleeve I think this should pretty much settle the matter. Basically all im saying is democracy, I guess, is whatever you want it to be, although forcing your own defenition and idea of what democracy should be, when there are other defenitions, most of which include the UK in their spectrum, is not acceptable. You can go and debate with someone your own view of democracy whenever you like, but since the majority of views include the UK as a democracy and yours dosent, then by consensus wikipedia should accept the UK as a democracy, apart from the fact that your defenition of democracy is gravely over-simplified.

And btw reply to my post if you want to in full, dont make points out of it because that is just selective and takes a lot of things out of context.

Having looked through the history of this page, the factbox read that Britian's government type was "Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Democracy", until an edit just over a week ago. Before my edit today, it simply read Constitutional Monarchy. There is clearly no consensus for the removal of any mention of democracy, judging by what I read on this talk page. I have changed it to read "Constitutional Monarchy and Representative democracy". This links to the Wikipedia article which describes representative democracy as a form of democracy in which decisions are taken by representatives chosen by voters in elections and explicitly contrasts it with direct democracy. Hopefully this will meet everyone's concerns. Hobson 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Request to be Listed as a site that links here

I would request to be listed as a site that links here the link can be found on http://www.local-phone-service.co.uk/links-directory.html. Unsure if this is corect area to ask this. 86.13.131.236 06:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Wikipedia doesn't list sites that link here. Aecis^Brievenbus 13:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Map showing the 4 nations?

There are 2 or 3 maps on the page, but no single one that shows the boundaries between England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. I think it would be a nice addition. (And I think the map on the Scotland page didn't enlarge very well.) EJR 17:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Ask User:Morwen. She created this, and many other maps. Although I note she has not been around for over 2 months. --Mais oui! 19:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Amount of Atheists

The data on the percentage of Atheists is misleading. The study quoted asks about those who believe in god and those you believe in a spirit or life force. Both of which are generally considered non-atheist, yet the article only quotes the inverse figure of those who believe in God. 12:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)edholland

I disagree. "Spirit or life force" is not generally considered non-atheist, only non-materialist. Atheism is independent of materialism, so the study can't probably be used to support atheist count, either, though. Digwuren 07:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

An atheist can't believe in a spirit or life force, by the defenition of an atheist, although some may belive in this and consider themselves atheists at the same time, however to belive in something non-materialistic in humanity can be (as in toaism, and buddism where ther eis no God) as a religion. If this is the case then someone could belive in this without making it into religion which I belive would either make them agnostic or humanist, but not atheist.

Atheism does not necessarily conflict beliefs in spirits, as long as these spirits are not considered divine. This is not an unusual position to be held by non-Western atheists, either. You're confusing atheism with rationalism, materialism, or the Brights movement. Digwuren 08:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Concur with Digwuren. A-theism is simply the opposite of theism. Refers solely to the belief/disbelief in the existence of one or more gods.Graldensblud 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Im no theologan but would most Buddists consider themselves taheist then? As Buddists don't actually believe in a God, the closest thing they have is Buddah but they wouldn't compare him to a God as such.

Footnotes

Why does your Infobox use footnotes? What are their purpose? Should other Infoboxes support footnotes? We request your comments at Template talk:Infobox CVG. Taric25 04:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Bestiality/Necrophilia

(unsigned post by 172.141.190.106 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) removed due to offensiveness - see archive)

Erm, I don't think so somehow. Do you see it on any other country's article? No. Leave this kind of trivial nonsense to your own talk page. User:Bennelliott/UBX/sign 19:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah I was just expressing my opinions on the matter, I am sorry if what I said offended anyone (namely Welsh people) I am generally quite ignorant, the purpose of what I said was not to offend, but merely to inquire (if in a slightly derogatory and unserious manner, which in itself is not something dissallowed, ive noticed, on many a talk page) as to why these matters are not adressed, call it whimsical curiousity if you want to. Basically I wasn't being serious about what I said, and just demonstrating some ridiculous ignorance, which in a way cancels its veritablity out, about other people of the UK that people my age, 16, (me included) seem to have and making a mockery of thAat, and not insulting anyone. However, for the point of dicussion since this is a whole complete, and completly non biased and uncensored encylopidia it is an intersting question as to whether sexuality (however taboo) should be mentioned in its pages.

Inclusion of the Thrash scene and its impact globally

I was fairly dissapointed to see the removal of my edit which included into the music section the importance of the current UK Thrash scene and it's international significance.

Ignorance of the subject is no excuse to deny it's recognition. The movement is very popular, more so than many of the types of 'rock music' listed and the deletion of my edit is both intolerant and insulting not only to myself but to thousands of fans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Holy Crap! Lions! (talk • contribs) 04:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The United Kingdom page is essentially a summary of lots of more detailed pages devoted to the individual topics. As such, material shouldn't appear in the main page until a more extensive section has been included in the various sub-pages (see WP:SS for details of the process). The sub-page for music is Music of the United Kingdom which, in turn, has its own sub-page at Music of the United Kingdom (1990s-2000s), and Music of the United Kingdom (1980s) I suggest that you initially add your contribution as a section of this last sub-page, and mention the genre in Music of the United Kingdom. However, looking through Thrash metal, it appears as if the genre was developed mainly by US bands, strongly influenced by the British New Wave music. New Wave is alread mentioned in Music of the United Kingdom. Bluap 13:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

As the editor who removed your edit, I just wanted to re-iterate what Bluap has said about this essentially being a summary page. As such, it can only cover the most notable of subjects under each heading. Although you talk about "thousands of fans", I'm sure you'd admit that bands such as Evile aren't as well known as the bands currently listed, such as The Beatles, The Clash or Franz Ferdinand. One of the bands you listed doesn't even appear to have a Wikipedia article, judging by the red link. Cordless Larry 13:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop reverting each other

Njan, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick and Gwernol, please stop reverting each other. If you have something to say, do it here. Discuss change, don't editwar. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies

I was trying to fix the broken photo caption in the economy section (see here [3]) and thought that someone had broken it by inserting a Dickensian essay into the caption, when in actual fact the closing tags were just in the wrong place. I then got irked by an accusation of vandalism on my talk page when this got reverted, when I should have double checked more carefully instead of reverting back. This was what I should have done [4]. Apologies to all, it was a good faith edit. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 23:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

To err is human. --Guinnog 23:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)