Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment February 2011

Proposal

The Pending Changes trial ended many months ago, but around 1000 articles are still using PC protection. It is proposed to remove pending changes protection from all articles, for now, with no prejudice against reinstating it in the future, in some form, based upon consensus and discussion.

• This proposal does not affect potential future use of Pending Changes; it is only to end the trial. It does not affect the ability to apply pending changes for testing purposes, to a few non-article pages. e.g. Wikipedia:Pending changes/Testing, its sub-pages and user sub-pages that the user requests it for.
• Discussion of whether and how we want to use Pending Changes in the medium and long term are being overshadowed by a lack of consensus on what to do with Pending Changes in the short term. This RfC is an attempt to reach a consensus on that short-term issue.

Please indicate support or oppose with brief reasoning in the comments section. Comments longer than 1000 characters, responses to the comments of others and general discussion of the topic should go in the discussion section.

Comments

Support proposal

1. Support. By removing the current articles from pending changes, we will be able to focus our discussions and move the process forward faster and with less conflict. Any new trial would likely be on different articles anyway. The default should be to return the articles to their protection status before the start of the trial. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
2. support while there are individuals who oppose PC for reasons of openness, many of the heated discussions I read centered around the fact that the trial period had ended, yet the trial continued. With this out of the way we can work on the other questions like how to improve it, reviewer responsibilities, and how to select articles for the next trial. Cliff (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
3. I support the continuation of pending changes in the longer term. However, it is clear that many editors consider the refusal to end the trial on the date promised as a breach of trust, and that this is harming the longer term discussion. Therefore, as an interim measure I support removing PC from all articles. —WFC— 09:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
4. Support - we agreed to a 2-month trial; it has stayed on for eight. A 'straw poll' supported (60%) temporary continuation with a drop-dead date of December 2010. Why on Earth is this still on, with no consensus? To move forwards - to have any meaningful discussion - we must first clear the air. The use of PC right now makes a mockery of the Wikipedian ethos of consensus.  Chzz  ►  09:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
5. Support - As I've said in past arguments, simply to clear the air. The discussions are currently going nowhere because it's impossible to assume good faith when a past assurance continues not to be honored (i.e. begs the question: How can we trust you to honor the results of discussions if you're not honoring the results of a previous one?). From what I can see, it will be reinstated soon enough (assuming no major problems are found with it), with usage guidelines, scope, and implementation more reflective of actual consensus. Obsidi♠n^Soul 10:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
6. Support - purely and simply on Chzz's very good point, that a clean slate will help (eg only for BLPs while were already using it elsewhere). Worm^TT · (talk) 10:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
7. Support Ending the PC trial will help clear the air and allow future debates to stay on topic, rather than all ending up as discussions about the trial. It will also help future features be trialled (the main reason the trial got in in the first place was due to users supporting with the understanding that it would be removed, and only because it would be removed, saying they wanted to try it out. If we don't keep the promise of turning features off after the trial, this factor will be lost for future trial proposals). In addition, there is no consensus, and no evidence that PC is good. User's claiming we should keep the trial on because PC is "good", are expressing their own opinion, not fact. Stopping the trial may mean people to actually analysis the results properly. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 10:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
8. Support - Who the hell's been administering this trial, von Karma? If consensus had seriously been followed, this would have been done a long while ago. Time to reset to the status quo and assess the trial, then make a final decision after we're better informed. —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.!)} 10:54, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
9. Support It is only logical that PC is removed from pages using it. I'm all for PC but let's remove it first since pages using PC are using it because of the trial (which has ended). After we have a clear consensus, policy and guideline on PC usage, then only implement it proper. Bejinhan talks 11:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
10. Support Per UncleDouggie. Jsayre64 (talk) 12:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
11. Support Now if only some clever people could, from a neutral standpoint, analyse the trial data and make some kind of sense of them to enable more informed debate. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
12. Support If a new consensus emerges that PC should be used on this project, then pages can be PC-protected under this new consensus. But the consensus that lead to the current protections does not cover any use after the trial has ended and should be respected. Ending this trial does not mean that PC cannot be reinstated in future with a real policy for its use after all (although I personally am against it). Regards SoWhy 12:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
13. Support Correct the mistake made at the straw poll. Revcasy (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
14. Support I do not understand why keeping PC on a relative handful of articles prevents discussion of future process. But it seems to. End the trial & move on. (Keep a tally of problem edits on the 1000 articles for future ref.) Wanderer57 (talk) 14:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
15. Weakly support taking it off non-BLPs. For example, it is on 2010 Atlantic hurricane season. On the other hand, it is doing no harm, and I agree with Wanderer57: how does it prevent discussion? Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
16. Weakly support Honestly why are we making a mountain out of a mole hill here. Its time to move on and if removing the protection is the only way so be it. Phatom87 ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
17. Support the software needs more work on. It is not intuitive. mabdul 14:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
18. Start over time. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 15:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
19. Support. I originally was a strong supporter of PC, and have long wanted to see it become a success. But I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of clearing the air, and I also believe strongly that serious work still needs to be done on PC. The developers need to work on fixing problems that the community has raised, and they definitely can do so, so long as the infrastructure is left in place. And we, in the community, need to develop the now-missing policy for its use: what exactly should or should not be rejected?, and what are the responsibilities of the reviewers?, among other significant issues. These issues need to be addressed before there is any chance of a real consensus to use PC. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
20. Support - I think it makes sense to clear the air. People here have left many great comments about the situation I can agree with. Besides made agreements should be honoured. --Mikitei (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
21. Support. Long overdue and may help facilitate long-term consensus on the question of PC. Rivertorch (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
22. Support Per Chzz and Tryptofish. It's collaboration we're asking for. A test period was granted (2 months), an extention with a hard deadline was authorized (December), and now we're 3 months beyond that deadline with pages (beyond what I understand the processes's scope (like Atheisim)) still entered onto the PC rolls. I agree the procedure is nice, but untill we get more of the usage, responsibilities, and policy documents/guidelines I must register my viewpoint as removing the PC protection (to whatever protection the article had before) but not the infrastructure. Hasteur (talk) 18:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
23. Support the poll that produced the original consensus to turn the feature on was for a trial with a specified end date. In the absence of any consensus to make the feature permanent or start another trial the feature should be removed from articles. Failing to do this has damaged the credibility of any future software trial proposals. I don't object to PC being left on for a handful of articles if there are exceptional circumstances. Hut 8.5 18:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
24. Grudging support this side issue has hijacked the RFC on the future of pending changes. How it is deployed presently is just a distraction that has persisted through the whole affair. If this is what it will take to make forward progress then let's do it and get back to the real issues. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
25. Support The trial period has ended, so we should remove it for now and discuss. During those discussions, some changes might arise, and then an updated PC can then be applied. Angryapathy (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
26. Support Yes please. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 20:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
27. Support I disagree that this is just removal soley for the sake of making a point. This is making good on the original agreement that the trial would end, by the end of 2010 for the last agreement. Anything beyond that wasn't approved, it's that simple. In the absense of any community agreement to do anything else this is the default option and the one we must follow. The only way around that is to totally ignore the original agreement, which as Chzz mentioned above totally goes against the whole concept of consensus. --nn123645 (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
28. We can't go on using it ad hoc indefinitely without a basic consensus for its use.  Sandstein  22:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
29. Support Let's start afresh, remove it from all articles, and then let's add it to articles as the result of a protection request. Use it in cases where it is genuinely more appropriate to have PC rather than SP. I started as a rabid supported of PC but now I see its only real use as a protection level for BLP's - all of them. PC does little to stop vandalism. Pol430 talk to me 22:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
30. Support, it's time this trial were over, and we finally are able to use better reasoning in the discussions. Sumsum2010·T·C 23:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
31. Support. I sympathize with many of those who oppose because they don't see any reason to stop using PC where it is working, but I think PC has more potential than what we've done with it so far, and the continuation of the trial has caused enough friction to jam up discussion on how to make more of PC.--ragesoss (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
32. Support This is necessary to deal with negative feelings about being lied to. I must say I have trouble with those myself and feel a strong irrational urge to oppose to everything related to pending changes. Yoenit (talk) 23:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
33. Support -- While I do support the continued use of Pending Changes in the future, it is long time to stop this weird purgatory-esque state we are in and make a decision about the future of PC. Nolelover ^{It's almost football season!} 02:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
34. Support First things first. We are taking way too long to get to the real discussion, which should have happened at the end of the two month trial. Ntsimp (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
35. Support The trial ended months ago. While it was good to get a feel on how the feature works and how the community may adapt to it, there has been little community consensus to continue it or to implement the feature. We need more discussion of the matter, but in the meantime the feature should be turned off or drastically limited. At this point continuing it isn't going to lead to any revelations or change many opinions. Let's not make pending changes a fait accompli -- more discussion is needed and there needs to be a consensus to switch this on for anything more than the trial we agreed to. ThemFromSpace 03:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
36. Support I find the PC protocol a useful supplement to protection but as the trial is overdue for completion and there should be plenty of data already, why keep it on so many articles? It should be used as an alternative to semi and a protocol needs to be established rather than the current blanket use. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 03:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
37. Support. The trial was supposed to be for a set period of time. It should have ended as soon as that time period was over. --Yair rand (talk) 03:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
38. Support, should have been handled sooner. Blurpeace 04:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
39. Strong Support Harm has already been done by promising to conduct a trial for a set period of time and then breaking that promise. I now have to treat any proposal for a limited-time-trial as a proposal for an indefinite trial. Stopping the trial now limits further harm. Guy Macon (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

    Discussion moved to Response to Guy Macon per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

40. Support Just seriously take it away. This is causing way more discussion than does any BLPs; which we'll deal with promptly later. We need to adhere first and foremost to the promise given in the previous PC RFC. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 06:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
41. Support Conclusions from the last round were PC is confusing, and I read that PC can create a backlog and stopping the trial should bring these issues to light. Are we keeping the trial because we can't stop because of a backlog? Clearly more stats are needed on which to base decisions. Let's properly stop the trial (as planned), and start a new trial asap. Jane (talk) 09:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
42. Support End the trial so a more clear and direct discussion can begin.--NortyNort (Holla) 09:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
43. Support - I'd like to see more trials, but that will be very difficult to organise while we have a hangover from the previous trial. I also find the arguments put forward in this section are more convincing than those put forward in the opposing section. Yaris678 (talk) 11:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
44. Support Things that hang about like this are a nightmare, and frequently prevent the rollout of a full solution. Turn it off temporarily and we can focus on agreeing some rules for whether and where it might be used. Oh, and maybe the developers might be tempted to do something about the sucky interface, Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
45. Support for every reason I've said on this before. It doesn't work, and continuing the trial indefinitely is to eventually have a fait accompli of accepting a deeply (and maybe hopelessly) flawed system. Courcelles 11:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
46. Support keep the tools streamlined. I thought there might be a place for this alongside semiprotection, but I really think the latter is better on all counts, therefore it is redundant. My own solution (as it has been for the past couple of years) is liberal semi-protection for low-traffic and high-risk BLPs as well as those already targeted. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
47. Support. — This tool should have simply been imposed upon us. Jimbo, or whoever the eff, should have simply stepped in and said eat this or die. It was utterly stupid to promise a trial. That promise should never have been made in the first place. But a promise it was. And sadly, it needs to be kept. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
48. Support on principle and for practical reasons. The only consensus was for a fixed-term trial, with a clear expectation that if no further consensus arose then we would revert to the status quo ante. We need to deliver on that promise, to retain credibility for future trials in other areas. More pragmatically, PC may well be adopted in a different form or with a scope which excludes some trial articles. It will probably be easier to start from scratch than to modify what is there. Certes (talk) 12:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
49. Support - it was a trial for a set period. Dalliance (talk) 13:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
50. Support - there was never (as far as I can see) any kind of consensus for the trial going on for more than two months, so the fact that it has done so is unsupported - and, most of all, the air needs to be cleared and the slate cleaned (and possibly disinfected, too!) before anything more can be done in the way of movng on. Pesky (talk) 13:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
51. Support While the analysis of the discussions referenced at the top of the page shows high votes for 'it could be useful on BLPs' it also shows a large number of people think 'it's confusing'. We need to stop using it to sort out the 'it's confusing' problem. Edgepedia (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
52. Support As I have argued for some time, a minority of outspoken editors have steamrolled this idea through an unconvincing trial period and into this state of indefinite continuation regardless of consensus. Hopefully this poll discussion will set that straight Jebus989^✰ 16:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
53. Support the pending change is confusing and removing the pending change from articles will remove the defunct feature. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 17:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
54. Support the ending of the trial process. Note that this is not support for the abolition of PC now-and-evermore, but only support for the discontinuation of this particular trial implementation. My impression from my dealings with it has been that the trial version is too slow and unstable to handle the high-traffic articles for which it was intended—and that extending it to all BLPs, as some below seem to be proposing, would bring the system grinding to a halt—but this is anecdotal. Someone needs to analyse where this worked and where it didn't, and the current "neither active nor inactive" state of PC is just causing confusion. – iridescent 17:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
55. Support Now you may say: why? It prevents vandalism, allows quality checking, but my reply is that it doesn't. The current implementation is uneven in its scope, and protects articles no bettr from vandalism as, say, a user using STiki does. If a single policy is made, choosing what level of FlaggedRevs to be used, where it is to be used, how it is to protect quality and impartiality in articles, then we will preserve Wikipedia's most sacred philosophies while protecting the reliability and quality of articles it is used on. The current trial implementation is an obstacle to that. Random articles seem to be protected with FlaggedRevs, and the current implementation of FlaggedRevs has not contributed at all to the quality of these articles, in my opinion. If we remove it, work on a proper implementation, and then implement it, Wikipedia will be a better place. --123Hedgehog456 : Create an account! 19:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
56. Support. Take PC off so that we can move forward with the discussion. If it's not taken off, then the discussion will go around in an endless circle. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
57. Support. Better to turn off for now so that future discussions are not tainted by the trial issue. Kaldari (talk) 20:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
58. Support' Having this anomalous class of articles is not desirable. When we have a system that is will be clear to new editors and cpable of handling the editing intensity at Wikipedia, then we can consider one. DGG ( talk ) 21:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
59. Emphatic support: Never should have been allowed to dribble on this way in the first place. Next time someone wants a PC "trial", they shouldn't implement it unless the trial automatically stops at the appointed time.—Kww(talk) 22:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
60. Strong Support A trial is a trial. At the end of a trial you stop the experiment and evaluate, not let it carry on without consensus to continue.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 00:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
61. Support. The trial ended *how* long ago? SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
62. Support. It was used for a trial period and that trial period is over. Way over.--Michig (talk) 08:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
63. Support. This system is in place on the German Wikipedia and I have always severely disliked it, for several reasons. It takes over two months before a reviewer has approved the edit, which is just ridiculous. Though these times will be no doubt be less off the scale on the English Wikipedia, it simply takes the "flow" out of Wikipedia. This could come across as an editor's work not being considered "important" enough, chasing off any less "involved" user. It also feels distrustful to editors who, other than unregistered IPs, should be valued for their contributions and trusted to do the right thing without their every move having to be watched. Lastly, it causes unnecessary mandatory checking work, since bots and mods are doing a fine job as they are, and other editors just need to contribute wherever they can. With many WikiProjects, there aren't any editors available to assess articles, shouldn't our priority be on improving things like that? --Eddyspeeder (talk) 16:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
64. Support seems sensible. If "trial" comes to mean "turned on indefinitely", no-one else will get concensus to trial other new ideas in future.--Physics is all gnomes (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
65. Support It doesn't even appear that there is anything that could be described as a trial going on any more. So time to remove it.©Geni 19:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
66. Support. Current protection with autoconfirmed editors is often good enough. Anyhow, since the trial is over, the articles should go back to their previous configuration. Xionbox^₪ 19:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
67. Support. I may expand on this later, but I increasingly feel this debate has become about something much more important than pending changes. It's become about good faith. A sizable portion of the editor base clearly feels that without a clear consensus to continue the pending changes trial that the original commitment to end the pending changes trial after two months should have been upheld. A neutral evaluation of the results of the pending changes trial cannot take place in a charged environment such as this. Political gamesmanship has no place in an environment where aggrieved parties can simply pack up and leave whenever they wish. Wikipedia is already hurting in recruiting and retaining editors, and cannot afford to reach a point where change and compromise has become impossible because of distrust. We need to end the pending changes trial in order to restore our ability to assume good faith of one another and to make future experiments and innovations possible. –Grondemar 19:58, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
68. Support. At a minimum, it needs a complete retooling. Mokele (talk) 00:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
69. Support I do think that PC protection has proven to be useful tool in the fight of vandalism on the encyclopedia. Jessy ^T/C 04:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
70. Support. I found PC annoying, and I could swear it was implemented in a much larger proportion of the articles that the above number would have made me guess. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:34, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
71. Support As stated the PC trial is over so it only makes sense to remove it from articles. Peter.C • talk • contribs 14:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
72. Support I view Pending Changes as completely counter to the original spirit of Wikipedia, so I'm not happy with it being around in any form. Nevertheless, ending the trial will mean that the next "phase" of restricting the ability of the masses to contribute to human knowledge will be implemented faster. I view the expansion of restrictions on freedom a sufficient price to pay for getting this out of the way and ending the endless, pointless meta-meta-debates. Captainktainer * Talk 15:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
73. Support Trial has lasted far longer than promised. I am against pending changes in general anyway. I think pending changes is a presently unnecessary (the encyclopedia is still getting better!), it complicates Wikipedia (barrier to new editors), contradicts the spirit of the project (puts too much power in a few users hands), puts more potential legal burden on editors (I don't want to be responsible for other people's mistakes), and is just plain clunky and ugly as was implemented. My opinion is open to change. If it does become obvious that the encyclopedia is getting worse without some sort of edit review process I would be would be willing to give on my position. "Bad edits" exceeding, or getting close to, the number of "good edits" seems to be a logical choice for a major policy shifts. Unless than happens, full steam ahead! Jason Quinn (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
74. Support Remove for now to clear the way for long-term discussion. It would be easier to discuss the future of PC if it wasn't up and running during the discussions. Krashlandon ^(talk) 18:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
75. Support While I support the use of pending changes long term, the trial was supposed to end after two months. We know what the positives are, and we know what the negatives are. There are still some technical challenges to be addressed. While this process continues, the "trial" needs to be brought to a conclusion. We then need to figure out whether or not we want PC as a whole, and if we do we thence need to figure out how to implement it. N419BH 01:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
76. Support I've always broadly opposed Flagged Revisions, but the PC idea interested me because it could allow more IP edits. So I supported the proposed trial. There were those at the time who warned that PC supporters would cynically leave it turned on after the trial, but I assumed good faith. I've been proved wrong. Leaving PC turned on has done tremendous damage to the project's credibility and to our ability to settle controversial questions by consensus. The first step in solving the problem is to shut it down. Ntsimp (talk) 05:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
77. Support It is time to end the trial and that is overdue. The Foundation has indicated that we are free to wrap it up. PC should go away for now but a new and improved version (with clearer standards regarding its implementation) is of course something we should at least consider in the future (even if the future means as soon as tomorrow, of course).Cptnono (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
78. Support. Close it down, as promised. At that point - and only at that point - I will consider supporting a proposal to actually use it. I expect to do so, if the performance is improved and the use of pending changes has an actual scope which seems reasonable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

    According to Jimbo or someone from WMF (don't have the exact spot right now), improvements have been made to it. However, because no test has been agreed to for the new version, they cannot test it and we're at a stalemate. Why waste manpower removing it from pages (BLPs from the trial in particular) just to readd it for a new test? CycloneGU (talk) 06:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

    Because support for a new trial is impossible without first ending the old one. Also, many have proposed drastically different criteria for selecting articles in the future. Manpower isn't an issue. We can just have a script or bot run through them. The only true waste is the manpower spent trying to get people to honor agreements. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

79. Support The trial has ended, therefore all should be set the way it was before. —Mikemoral♪♫ 06:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Oppose proposal

Oppose move to support. I say keep the pending changes on the articles they're on. It appears to be doing no harm, indeed even helping on them. Now we've seen pending changes working, removing them seems like a step backwards. (NB, this isn't a strong objection - I just don't see the point in removing them) Worm^TT · (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

1. Oppose The suggestion is akin to having automatic starters removed from cars after they were proven to work. Ot to removing a new medicine from patients in a clinical trial when the medicine was proven effective for their illness. Pending changes has been proven to reduce vandalism and BLP violations. All it is is "removal for the sake of removal" which makes precious little sense at all. Collect (talk) 10:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
2. Oppose - Pending protection is working fine on less than one thousand articles and there is no worthwhile reason to remove the tool from them. Off2riorob (talk) 11:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
3. I would oppose in principle, because I think that PC is a useful tool; I'm baffled by the idea that we might have to stop using it in order to get a clear discussion on the best protection options for articles in future. (It reminds me of the government who sent us a letter recognising that my wife had a right to live with me, and therefore the government insisted that she had to be deported, so that she could fill in a form in another country requesting permission to be with me again). However, we've been mired in difficult debate for some time; if, for some bizarre reason, stopping using PC is genuinely the best way to move the debate forward to establish consensus on the best use (or non-use) of PC in future, then pragmatically I'd say we should switch off PC in the short term. I am skeptical that this scenario will come true, though - after switching off PC I think we would still be mired in similar debate. bobrayner (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
4. Oppose, per Bobrayner. This will make it harder to keep watch over sensitive articles. Stifle (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose, per Bobrayner. It's working fine, it's in the interest of a credible Wikipedia to keep it working on these 1,000 articles or more, something like 135 edits/min to 10-12 reverts/min is not healthy for a credible Wikipedia, to insist on switching it off on the short-term is absolutely not logical to me. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose, it is a useful tool, it should remain on the articles it is currently protecting (unless consensus on those pages decide that the protection isn't needed or another form of protection would be better, but that's for the article editors to decide). If consensus decides that PC will be mothballed then it can be removed then. Polyamorph (talk) 16:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
7. Oppose This process bullying is exactly why WP is such a mess. Nothing can be done without process fetishism. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

   If trying to enforce a consensus is "process bullying" or "process wonkery", I wonder what the hell edit wars and wikilawyering are! —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 04:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

8. Oppose. I am not aware of any real problems, and I believe the benefits outweigh any that might exist. Hans Adler 20:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
9. Oppose. I love Pending Changes. As this thesis predicted as the number of Wikipages increases, reality is catching up with us: more tools are needed to manage the: "untenable trend towards progressive increase of the effort spent by the most active authors" to maintain quality. History2007 (talk) 22:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

   Discussion moved to Response to History2007 per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

10. Oppose - I like the pending changes. It provides us with a great alternative to protecting some pages, and I quite honestly don't understand why some people want to remove that. Ajraddatz (Talk) 22:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
11. Oppose. Pending Changes undoubtedly reduces the vandalism load, allowing vandal fighters to make other contributions. We need to focus on improving Wikipedia's quality. Guoguo12--Talk--  22:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
12. Oppose - no reason whatsoever not to allow admins to use it. On lightly edited articles, it's a useful tool to ensure that vandalism doesn't get published until reviewed. --B (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

    Oppose (Moved to observe) I wanted to support this notion as a comprise. Unfortunately, I see the context more as an indictment, and any compromise I bring in good faith would constitute surrender. I have already seen the calls for finding fault. I am sure at some level "I dropped the ball". And I know when a proposal says "The Pending Changes trial ended many months ago" followed by "it is only to end the trial". It is a position I can not support. My76Strat (talk) 23:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

13. Oppose Useful tools should not be laid aside solely for the sake of what Kim terms the "process fetishism" of a few users (and the hopes of a few more to kill the tool off entirely, leaving us with much greater use of semi-protection). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose Very useful tool, see no reason to remove it. Don't see how this would move forward a rational debate about its broader usage. --Elekhh (talk) 00:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose This proposal appears to advocate harming the encyclopedia for the sake of process wonkery. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to keep pending changes in use while discussing its use. Captain panda 00:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
16. Oppose Pending changes is useful that it prevents vandalism from building up, without having to use semi-protection, which punishes IP users for the actions of a few. It is also useful for articles that not many people have on their watchlist. Finally, I believe that every article should have pending changes. This way, Wikipedians can focus on content addition and copyediting, rather than having their edit counts boosted by reverting vandalism, warning vandals, placing vandals on the AIV, and requesting page protection. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 03:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
17. Oppose It's working and it's working well. I don't recall a consensus that it would be turned off after the trial period, just that there would be more discussion. Just because that discussion is belated still isn't a reason to shut it off. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 03:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

    Discussion moved to Response to Elipongo per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

18. Oppose - I am an opponent of Pending Changes on a broad scale and really don't like the whole "trial that was not really a trial" fiasco... However, I've recently had the occasion to be involved in an article that was the subject of protracted vandalism that was on the verge of a lawsuit and having the OPTION for Pending Changes protection was a real boon. If PC is only being used on 1,000 pages out of nearly 3.6 million articles, that's just about right. Leave well enough be... Just don't try spreading that crap indiscriminately across Wikipedia. Carrite (talk) 03:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
19. Oppose There is simply no justification for removing a tool that helps keep down defamation in BLPs while still allowing "open" editing. Want a new and improved version? Fine. Keep this one until it's ready--the alternative is widespread semi-, if not full protection of BLP articles (or non-BLP articles that attract BLP allegations). Jclemens (talk) 06:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
20. Oppose Pending Changes are a useful tool against BLP Vandalism. It is less harmful to our core goal of being an encyclopedia "anyone"** can edit then semi-protection. (Yes, I know blocked/banned users cannot)... Semi-protection removes the ability of IP Editors completely.. Pending Changes allows them to still edit, but having the edit reviewed before going "live" reduces the risk that google spiders and the like will echo vandalism further out. We should be aggressively ramping UP the use of Pending changes, rather than this. I compare this to an attempt to rob PC of its momentum, and then argue that we shouldn't restart it, because we already tried once, and then stopped. SirFozzie (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

    See discussion below.

21. Fozzie took the words right out of my mouth. Quite why anybody would want to rob us of a useful tool in the fight against vandalism that doesn't make anybody without an established account feel unwelcome is beyond me. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

    See discussion below.

22. Oppose It's working. Bobrayner brings up a good point also. Mkdw^talk 07:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
23. Oppose Pending changes are better than any other way for protecting articles here. Wikipedia is supposed to be free encyclopedia which all people who come in good faith should be able to edit, not only for few elected sysops or confirmed people, protecting articles with regular protections (edit=autoconfirmed or sysop) is evil and removing opportunity for regular people to edit this encyclopedia would not make it better. Petrb (talk) 08:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
24. Oppose Keeping the PC trial going will expose more people to PC, and give more chances to identify bugs/future enhancements. --JaGa^talk 09:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
25. Oppose - it's working perfectly well as it is right now and is serving to protect a number of significant BLPs. I'm not willing to accept the 'collateral damage' involved in removing it; there's too much already as it is - Alison ^❤ 11:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
26. Oppose. Why semi-protect 1000 editable pages? You must really hate new editors. If some of the articles don't need protection take them to RFPP. Otherwise get over it (the 'difficult to discuss' thing) and think about moving swiftly forwards, not backwards. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
27. Strong Oppose. I have noticed that in some pending changes there is severe vandalism. This is working very well. Keeping this will also give some editors the opportunity to have there edits seen by others, and then possibly applied to the article while at the same time keeping vandalism rates way down. If we remove this tool and replace the pending changes with semi-protection, tens of thousands of new editors will not be able to have their facts added to an article. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) ^(Shout!) 16:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
28. Oppose While we wait for the improved version, I think PC protection should at least be added to all BLPs. Dugnad (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
29. Oppose. I'm afraid I don't follow the logic that PC has to be turned off completely before we can move on to discussion of its future use. If there is a consensus to not use PC at all, we can turn it off. Personally, I would like to see its use expanded. -- Donald Albury 17:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
30. Oppose I don't see a clear practical reason here for why we need to remove it. I don't see this as an "either-or" situation. I see great potential for PC as an option for some situations, while still using semi-protect for others. E.g. perhaps use PC for current-events and lower-traffic pages. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
31. Oppose I really do not understand why we have to turn pending changes off in order to determine how to use pending changes. If we were deciding a new policy on acceptable usernames, we wouldn't insist on stopping anyone from registering. If we were rewriting the BLP policies, we wouldn't just systematically delete all BLP articles so that we have a "clean slate" to work from. This whole discussion is a way of avoiding the actual substantive discussion. Indeed, if we have pending changes turned on, the discussion of the policy can be informed by the fact that we can compare like-for-like pages that are under PC protection with those that are unprotected, semi-protected and fully protected. —Tom Morris (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
32. Oppose. If the trial has not ended, it simply means "It is working !" *** in fact *** ( contact ) 04:08, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

    What sort of logic is that? —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 09:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

33. Oppose I can only use common sense to guide me. I haven't read enough about this to have more information. But my gut says there is no reason to stop a good thing that works for no reason. My gut also says if there was a good reason, it would be easily seen. I haven't seen it. Town,WP (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

    People have discredited my opposition on my talk page. I don't know what else to say. I like pending changes. I want it to continue. and this is my opinion. If that's not good enough, erase my comments. Town,WP (talk) 22:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

34. Oppose Why remove it. I see no sufficient reason.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
35. Oppose I don't see any reason to remove it, regardless of when the trial ended. It's only benefiting the articles it is currently activated on. Tyrol5 [Talk] 17:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
36. oppose per Alison and Doc James --Guerillero | My Talk 19:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
37. Oppose – No, just no. PC is working well on articles that do not merit the need for semi-protection, such as low-traffic BLPs (high-traffic ones should be semi-protected). If it ain't broke, don't fix it. —mc10 (t/c) 20:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

    Moved to #Response to MC10 below. —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 06:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

38. Strong Oppose - BLP articles that currently use it should be able to keep testing it. Others, perhaps it can be removed, but this tool helps curb BLP vandalism which could otherwise be libelous. Let's not reopen ourselves to that problem at least on those articles. However, I recognize there is currently a 2-1 consensus as of my vote in support of the above proposal. CycloneGU (talk) 16:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

    We have 518,177 BLPs, 440 of which are part of the PC trial. What is about those 440 articles that concerns you so much that you're willing to perpetuate 9 months of conflict and distrust that condemns the other 517,737 articles to never receive the protection you value so highly? If PC is useful, it should be able to withstand the bright light of approval by consensus instead of sneaking in by never-ending trial. —UncleDouggie (talk) 01:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

    There must have been some reason these 440 BLPs were selected for the trial. I may be ignorant in this statement not knowing each individual one, but I personally saw one page under PC that got vandalistic edits that fortunately never made it to the page and got it upped to semi temporarily. It did its job. Why remove something that works? CycloneGU (talk) 06:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

    Because there is no consensus to use it, there are no policies in place governing its use and significant technical objections have been raised. Put all 1000 articles under semi-protection if you are so concerned about them. You are throwing away any trust to ever experiment with something again on this project because of a misplaced concern about 0.003% of our articles. How does that make any sense? —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

39. Oppose useful tool. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
40. Oppose - Really? We need to 'clear the air' by removing pending changes from all articles in order to continue discussion of the future use of pending changes? Absurd. There's also no mention of what level of protection that current pages with PC protection would be changed to if it were removed. None? Semi-protection? This proposal is flawed. Mojoworker (talk) 05:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

    When a trial is over, things should revert to the way they were before the trial started, whatever protection that may have been for each article. If you want something else, you're free to propose it here. You can also directly request any protection level for a given article using the normal method. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Wikimedia Foundation issue

There previously was concern that if we stopped using PC, the WMF would not permit us to later restart it. Steven Walling from the WMF has recently made it clear that we are free to stop using PC until we make a final decision. The only restriction is that should we decide to dismantle the infrastructure for PC, the foundation will not set it back up again. There is no need to be so drastic. The trial can be ended by merely removing PC from all articles. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, UncleDouggie is correct. Just to be super clear: what I'm trying to say (for the tech folks managing Pending Changes right now) is that the community has always and will always be free to just quit using Pending Changes if it wants. But we're only going to remove the extension entirely (and get rid of the rest of the infrastructure, such as the test suite) until the community can show a clear consensus that it does not want to use the feature in the long run. If people want to end the trial and put a moratorium on use until that decision about the long run can be made, that's fine by us. Steven Walling at work 23:15, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

No big deal

I want to emphasize that, I think PC has the potential to be a useful tool, a useful addition to our toolbox. But to sort out this mess, we need to remove it for now; we need to take a step back, so we can move forwards. And to anyone who thinks this is unnecessary...OK, we can agree to disagree but - do you really strongly object to use removing it, for now?

This polldiscussion really should be no big deal at all; a few hundred articles - a tiny test - brought to an end, so we can discuss things without them imposed on us.  Chzz  ►  10:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC) gah; even 'I am mistaking it for a poll; aargh  Chzz  ►  19:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm on the other side of the poll, just about, but I was under the impression that this poll would help determine consensus on the articles currently under PC. I think they're no big deal to be left on, and if the community agrees with me here - we should be able to move on and leave this point alone. If it agrees that they should be removed, we should be able to remove them, move on and leave this point alone. I'll be very glad when we can leave this point alone! Worm^TT · (talk) 10:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason that it is a big deal if the trial continues is...it makes it extremely difficult to discuss. What's the point in our discussing e.g. "can it be used only on BLPs" when - right now - it is used on gout? We need a blank slate to work with. A large portion of the community is disillusioned with the entire process - because consensus has been disregarded. I'm not interested in recriminations, I just want us to 'clear the air'.  Chzz  ►  10:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

While in theory everyone could just forget that these articles exist and move on, in reality people don't work that way. As long as they exist with PC protection, they keep coming up in discussions and we get nowhere. It's terribly frustrating. —UncleDouggie (talk) 10:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't spotted that it might actually preclude discussion on where to use it. That's a very good point, and I've moved to support. UncleDouggie, my thoughts were that you could always refer people to this consensus - which I'm hoping would be enough to move on either way. Worm^TT · (talk) 10:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

It shouldn't be hindering forward progress but apparently there are some who just can't discuss things hypothetically when they feel they've been betrayed. When this is all over it may be worth re-examining whose responsibility it actually was to remove it when the trial was over, that is a point that is still unclear to me. Was the Foundation supposed to do it automatically, or was someone from here supposed to tell them what we wanted done and that just never happened? I don't know but it as so many have mentioned rebuilding trust and feeling betrayed I think it is important that we establish who really "dropped the ball" in this affair. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

To those who don't see the harm in the trial continuing

I personally feel that it's probably not doing direct harm. That said, I'm sure many people will disagree, and say that it is doing harm in some or all of the places where it is applied. Either way, it is patently obvious that the ongoing trial is standing in the way of progress on the longer term future. Therefore, I believe it is in the interests of both broad sides of the PC debate for the trial to be halted. Those broadly in favour of PC because it will highlight the need to actually get on with this discussion (which should have ended months ago), and achieve a consensus of sorts for either another trial or longer-term implementation. Those broadly against PC partly because they will be glad to see the back of it in the short term, but also to give us the opportunity to either ditch PC for good, or at least, if it does remain, ensure that it has a defined scope, and that there is consensus for that scope. The sooner we know what is happening with PC, the sooner we can stop worrying about it/ start learning to live with it. And if ending this trial speeds that process along, then ending this trial is what we must do. —WFC— 10:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

In answer to the question "why does PC remaining in place on these articles prevent discussion?". If it were a case of "is PC good or bad", the trial would not be a problem. But my judgement is that there is not consensus for full or permanent implementation yet, but that there probably is consensus for a continuation of PC in some form. But progress on what form that takes (be it more articles, fewer, the same number, different software, specific types of article, whatever) is being undermined by the failure to implement the previous "hard shut-off". —WFC— 16:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

More simply, it's hard to get consensus for a future, short-term trial, if the last short-term trial kept going indefinitely. —WFC— 16:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with continuing the PC on articles, but others seriously do, and I gather from their comments that they have stronger opinions on the topic. As such, I concede to their wish to end the trial so that we can discuss how to proceed. Cliff (talk) 16:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect, the people who don't like pending changes aren't the ones being protected by it (they're not BLP subjects) nor the ones benefiting from it (they're not the anonymous editors allowed to edit PC-protected articles). Jclemens (talk) 06:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you're forgetting who does the work around here. We're not your reviewing slaves to be ordered about to whatever articles you deem in need of protection. There have been loud objections to the lack of PC policies and problems with the technical implementation as well. We can quickly revert edits today with Huggle and other tools using clearly defined policies. Just why should we switch to a slow interface in which we must put our name by edits without any policies regarding such operations? —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course you're not anyone's slave--everything any of us do is as volunteers here. We're agreed that the technical implementation needs improvement, but given the years of development that have gone into Huggle and similar tools, it is unreasonable to expect that PC will spring forth fully formed with that level of support. I'd say the solution to that problem is to move forward and hammer out the issues, not undo what's been accomplished to date. Jclemens (talk) 09:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how having 1000 pretty much random articles (except for the few you have done) being under indefinite PC protection with no reviewer guidelines or policies is much of an accomplishment. By that logic, we could enroll all of en.wikipedia in PC tomorrow and have success beyond our wildest dreams. Although, somehow I don't think that's exactly the reaction you would get. Success is a well functioning protection system that doesn't destroy the mission of Wikipedia. The stats from phase 2 about PC being confusing should make it clear that's not where we are at. What are you going to do if 95% of the currently protected articles turn out to be ineligible per a consensus article selection policy? —UncleDouggie (talk) 10:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be relatively easy to write an adminbot that goes through Special:StablePages, checks for Category:Living people, and removes PC on all pages that do not contain it if that is the consensus. At one page per second, it would only take 16²/₃ minutes to process 1000 pages. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see how that is of particular relevance to what UncleDouggie was saying, however, if it is of interest, here's a list of BLPs currently under PC - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 13:40, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Medical

@collect - to continue your analogy - following a small, controlled clinical trial, you would not simply start giving the medicine to more and more people. You'd stop, and carefully analyse the results.  Chzz  ►  10:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Nope. When a clinical trial shows pronounced and unequivocal benefits, the people taking the drug do not have the drug withdrawn so they can die faster. In fact, the drug may then be given to the control group as a simple humanitarian act. Collect (talk) 14:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Just one of many reports: [1] Does appropriate early trial reporting result in patient benefit? I believe the answer is clearly yes. In the case of a clearly convincing superiority of one treatment over another, if both therapies are available, the importance of allowing an appropriate change in clinical practice is clear. Even if the superior intervention is not generally available, cross-over to the superior arm may be allowed for patients on the other arm(s), providing all enrolled patients the opportunity to receive the therapy with greater benefit. Collect (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Does the pages and pages of dispute over this indicate unequivocal benefits to you?  Chzz  ►  14:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

It reminds me more of a group of theologians debating the size of angels at this point. No one has given any basis for stating that PC has in any way, shape or manner harmed WP, and there is substantial agreement that PC is a valuable tool with regard to WP:BLP. That being said, on Wikipedia, "virtual paper never refused virtual ink" as some ArbCom pages make reasonably clear. Collect (talk) 15:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The failure to end the trial, as was promised by the Wikimedia Foundation, has resulted in thousands of hours of editor time wasted, in debating this. That has harmed the project, because we could've been doing something much more productive.  Chzz  ►  15:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Neat argument - that means that nothing which ever attracts opposition should ever be tried because the people opposing the change will use up enough time that they can say the proposal itself has harmed Wikipedia. I had not thought of anyone proposing that logical argument! Collect (talk) 15:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Two words: side effects. Drug trials sometimes show efficacy with the targeted condition but produce unintended new symptoms that are deemed worrisome enough to delay or even prevent the drug's approval. Rivertorch (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok... so are we talking about the pharmaceutical industry or Wikipedia? You didn't specify any new symptoms or "side effects" that PC has caused. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 23:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

How about, "Warning: PC may cause drowsiness, nausea and headaches"?  Chzz  ►  02:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I've been on WP so long today that my eye can't stop twitching every two minutes. I blame PC. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Clearly, PC causes anxiety, nervousness, and irritability. I'm tempted to suggest paranoid neurosis of some sort, but my DSM-IV is out of date and no longer a reliable source. Where's an expert when you need one? Rivertorch (talk) 04:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Once again: The trial is already over, because we have stopped collecting data. Trial == collection of data. We are not in a trial; we are actually using the product.

To use the medical analogy, it is not uncommon to keep using an apparently effective medication after the trial is over, while you are evaluating the results. Continuing to provide access to a medication does not mean "extending the trial". It means "using the product". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

This medical analogy is being stretched to breaking point. However, if you're going to use it as a justification for using PC from a trial, you need to read up. Comparing this to medicine is the absolute worse analogy if you want to seriously persuade people that it is okay to continue using this from a trial run, without any evidence that it is good, any evaluation of the trial, and no analysis of the possible future implications of continued use. It's convinced me even further that it is essential for due diligence to be taken in this matter, and for us to examine the result of the trial before using PC all-out, rather than just briefly glancing at them and saying "looks good"/"ILIKEIT" - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 02:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps you need to read up: Thalidomide was not tested in pregnant women, so none of the trial participants—all healthy, non-pregnant males—had any reason to keep using it outside the trial.

Modern trial designs do not typically withdraw potentially life-saving medications from patients while the paperwork is being processed. Just imagine what that would do to an HIV+ person: "Here's your life-saving antitretroviral drug, now you can't have it because we need to 'respect the process', even though the treatment interruption means you will develop resistance and die."

Now consider your story again in a cancer patient: "Thanks for participating in our trial; now please go home and die quietly while we spend two years doing paperwork." Drug manufacturers may not market (~sell) unapproved medications, but they may continue to provide them to the individuals in the clinical trials. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

You've missed the point I'm trying to make, which is simply that it is important to trial a new feature properly, and evaluate the results rather than just continuing blindly (because continuing blindly can result in very serious consequences, which was all that I was trying to highlight with the Thalidomide case). My story was not a case of "go home and die while we process the paperwork." It was more of "lets continue shoving our medication down the throats of participants regardless of the effect it has, because we think it 'looks good' at the first glance, and can't be bothered to actually look at possible side effects." The point is that there has been no proper evaluation of the results, and while it continues to be used it appears that there will be none. Saying "I like it, so we should keep it" is not a responsible attitude to take, but seems to be what a lot of the opposition consists of. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I wish I could get someone to tell me what a "proper evaluation of the results" means. Several editors, including myself, have provided statistical descriptions of what happened during the trial. Have you, by any chance, bothered to read these? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

And what happens if we decide on things that do not conform with current implementation? What happens if we decide that certain articles shouldn't have that or that certain users shouldn't be reviewers? Would you guys also willingly relinquish control then? Or would you also obstinately argue that anything that opposes the current implementation is 'process fetishism'?

Letting the 'trial' continue is accepting that the de facto implementation is official and approved by consensus.

And it isn't. And you know what the funny thing is? I support implementation of PC with solid guidelines, but the way some reviewers are already finding it hard to let go of their newfound rights is doing nothing but proving exactly what I had been afraid of: Power is always hard to let go of isn't it? Obsidi♠n^Soul 02:45, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I assure you, I have seen absolutely zero reviewers see it as a "power" - it is actually a burden, but a burden undertaken for the benefit of Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 10:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Honey, you ain't seen nothin'. I see rights-hungry teenage users act like they have power all the time. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 15:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Limbo

To those opposing this proposition;

• PC is in a state of limbo. The policy is unclear. Administrators cannot determine if/when PC can be used.

• If we're going to use PC, we need to form much clearer policies. That is going to be difficult, if not impossible, until we end the current deadlock state.

• So, if you support Pending Changes - if you want to see it used, on a wider range of BLP articles - then the best chance of that happening is, if we draw a line under this trial, and start to discuss how we could implement it.

The actual protection policy states; (with my bolding);

For a two month trial period that began on June 15, 2010, articles could be protected by pending-changes protection. The trial is now over and the Wikipedia community is currently seeking to gain consensus on where to go with the pending changes idea.

Well, we've been 'seeking to gain consensus' ever since. And frankly, it is never going to happen, until people accept that the trial is over.

The policy goes on to explain we had a poll (about temporary continuation), and (based on the 60% support) that during the interim period it could be used only with caution. That "interim period" had a drop-dead date of end of December 2010. So in reality, the policy tells us nothing - it doesn't say if we can use it, or if we cannot.

Also, please look at the text admins see when they protect a page - MediaWiki:Protect-text. It says,

No page in the Wikipedia namespace should be protected under pending changes except those for testing

Notice, that page refers to the "February RfC". Yes, this RfC itself has now been running for 13 years.^[2] We're still in limbo - nobody knows quite what we can and cannot do, in terms of using PC.

If you want PC to be used more widely then - perhaps paradoxically - the best chance for that to happen is to consent to closing down the trial. One step backwards, then two steps forwards.

I sincerely hope we can find consensus here, so we can boldly move ahead. Thank you for reading.  Chzz  ►  02:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. Captain Panda wrote above, "This proposal appears to advocate harming the encyclopedia for the sake of process wonkery. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to keep pending changes in use while discussing its use." Well, would someone please tell me why we still, since eight months ago, haven't figured out what the hell to do with PC other than discuss in circles? The people against turning it off are afraid it will never get turned back on. The people wanting to turn it off are afraid it will never get turned off.

What we need now is either a consensus, or for the WMF to make an executive decision and have the community stick with it. Frankly, I don't care if the WMF says "PC on every page" now; I just want this waste of time over with. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The WMF has made it clear they will respect the communities decision on this issue. If my design for the next phase is allowed to proceed it should answer the yes/no question and allow us to publish a rough guideline to how it is to be used that can be refined into a finished policy as we work out the kinks. We can't expect to anticipate every possible issue beforehand, and as we all know no policy is ever perfect or truly "finished" but we should be able to cough up something usable at the end of this thing. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see how allowing the trial to continue prevents consensus to be formed about PC itself. They seem like entirely separate things. Could someone point to an example of how the trial has blocked debate about the future of PC? --JaGa^talk 21:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

They are entirely separate things. It is an obstacle that exists only in the minds of some users. Those users have succeeded in stalling discussion of the future while we discuss the present. The purpose of this RFC was supposed to be about the future but it has unfortunately been derailed despite my efforts to keep it on track. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

A few recent examples are Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_February_2011/Archive_3#Phase_three_draft, Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_February_2011#Re_Question_1, Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_February_2011#Question_1. There have been dozens of similar problems that have consumed many man-months of effort in the past and resulted in the current limbo situation. Look at how hard it is just to discuss this simple proposal to end a two month trial in which there are only two possible outcomes. Image if there were four options instead of two, with complex interactions between them. What if we decide it's best to conduct a 2 day trial on some articles as a quick test of something? Oh right, that's not possible because we threw away all credibility by not stopping the last trial. The bottom line is that it's impossible to ask for community support for a proposal, and especially for a major change in policy, when you have demonstrated that you don't have respect for the processes used by the community. —UncleDouggie (talk) 04:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me? What do you mean when you say I "don't have respect for the processes used by the community"? That is a serious accusation that I do not believe is supported by the diffs you provided, which show discussions with other users that did in fact result in numerous changes to the questionnaire. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The indentation of my comment made it clear that I was replying to JaGa, not to you. The diffs were examples of how hard it has been to make progress with the trial running, which was the question asked, and isn't your fault. My comment about not respecting the processes used by the community referred to the original question of "how allowing the trial to continue prevents consensus to be formed about PC itself." —UncleDouggie (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Replying to JaGa, in parallel with UncleDouggie. UncleDouggie sums it up pretty well. So far as I'm concerned, the refusal to stop the trial at the agreed upon date was an act of dishonesty, and means that I no longer trust assurances from people that have argued that continuing the trial was harmless. The only way I will ever approve another trial of a feature like this is if the software to automatically remove it at the end of the trial is included from the beginning. I won't even discuss the feature until the trial is stopped. How can I proceed in any kind of discussion with people that have already lied to me about the topic at hand? What's the point in reaching an agreement with people that don't honor their agreements?—Kww(talk) 22:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Pending Changes should be an extreme measure

I am a very strong opponent of Pending Changes on a broad scale as it runs counter to what Wikipedia is about — being an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. I've been an opponent at every step of the way, but I tell ya, the TOOL of Pending Changes is a good one and it should not be abandoned for an extremely limited number of problematic articles. I was recently involved with a BLP that was the subject of protracted defamatory vandalism that was fast approaching a lawsuit against the Wikimedia Foundation. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not going to pretend to know how meritorious the potential suit was or its probable outcome, but I can assure you that a lawsuit WAS close. The biography was more or less fixed and Pending Changes installed as a tool to help protect a recurrence of the problem. PERFECT use of the tool... I loathe the idea that all, most, or many articles make use of Pending Changes, but you know what — if there are 1,000 problematic articles that need the protection to deflect potential lawsuits and the drain upon the foundation's resources that these would entail, win or lose, I'm TOTALLY fine with the honchos giving the middle finger to the community and keeping the tool in place until a final reckoning is made. Carrite (talk) 04:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem with that is in your paragraph: the honchos. So far the WMF has not gotten involved, so absent their butting in, which is unlikely unless there's another Sigenthaler Incident, those arguing to keep PC on are arguing in a position that runs counter to two consensi. Jimbo has indicated he supports PC, but has also indicated he will submit to whatever consensus is made, so again there's been no official involvement.

(Having been one until I surrendered the rights due to them including a Robert King punching dummy, I can tell you administrators have no practical political power on WP. This is turning more and more into a civil war.) —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.!)} 04:10, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

There is no limit of 1,000. It just happens that there are about 1,000 (actually, 956) PC-protected pages right now. We have no policy declaring the limitations (type of article, etc) - and that is, for many of us, our major concern. We'd like to see it written somewhere. At the moment - as noted above, referencing MediaWiki:Protect-text - admins shouldn't be applying PC. If we could resolve the deadlock, we could form policies on where it could be used - and you, me, and everyone else would be able to discuss it and work out some consensus.  Chzz  ►  04:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

@Carrite Was the problematic content being added by registered editors? If not, semi-protection should have had the same effect; if so, full protection should have done the trick while the IPs involved were looked into, abuse reports filed, and ranges potentially blocked. The one instance where something along the lines of PC seems potentially invaluable is the sort of very rare case where semi is no help because one or more vandals are registering from different IPs and just keep coming back. Even there, though, I can think of at least one alternative. Rivertorch (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Yea, what we need is input from the community on when it is appropriate, and not appropriate, to use pc, not a hard limit on the number of articles. That would be no help at all. Very, very few users have indicated that they believe it should be applied on every article or even most articles so I wouldn't worry too much about that. The way things are leaning so far it looks like the community favors using it sparingly. We just need to define the criteria for using it as we have for the other forms of protection so that admins have some guidance on how it is to be applied. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I did say I could think of an alternative. It has to do with raising the bar for autoconfirmed status. Precious few BLP-vandals would bother to wait several weeks and make x number (50? 100?) genuinely constructive edits, I think, before maliciously zeroing in on their target. A few really dedicated evildoers probably would jump through such hoops, but there's nothing to stop anyone that patient from getting reviewer status, either. Rivertorch (talk) 05:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Precious few VOAs are autocon-busters as is. Usually, it's an LTA or accomplice of same, so upping the edit count hurts us more than it harms them, since they will quickly adapt. —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 05:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The articles currently under PC aren't the most problematic on Wikipedia by any means. They were just randomly selected for the trial with a little bit of guidance, such as using some articles that previously had semi-protection to see if we would get more constructive edits. During the actual trial, the most problematic articles had to be removed from PC and returned to semi-protection due to excessive vandalism. PC is doing next to nothing for us today on those 1000 articles. They are trial articles that will survive just fine without PC. This type of confusion is making it impossible for us to proceed. —UncleDouggie (talk) 05:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Time to take off those articles with PC so that the discussion can move forward. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Offering Pending Changes protection to BLPs is something I've actively been doing in relation to BLP concerns expressed in OTRS. Probably done about 10-20 so far. It would be helpful if your statements were accurate. Jclemens (talk) 06:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

You could have just as easily semi-protected them. We have well over 100,000 BLPs. Do you really want to put them all under indefinite PC today given all the technical and policy shortcomings that have been identified? Talk about harming Wikipedia. The way to expand usage of PC is through consensus, not force. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

In some cases, I did also semi-protect them (see below). What you're missing out here is that every time I used PC on a BLP since getting OTRS access, it's been because a real, live human being complained about it via email. 100k BLPs may have problems, or they may not; real numbers are probably under 10%. What I can tell you is that of the ones I've added PC to, 100% of them involved someone personally sending us an email saying "I'm being defamed/insulted/lied about/stalked/whatever, can you please help me out here?" Policy shortcuts are a red herring: we can sort them out, yet they will always be in a state of flux, just like WP:V. Technical shortcomings can be dealt with by improvement, and are the major reason I don't currently support proactive use (vs. the reactive usage I described) of PC. As far as "force" goes, the major external force isn't those of us who think BLP is important enough to use PC on despite its shortcomings--it's the threatened lawsuits that can cost the WMF real money, and can result in a PC-by-WMF-decree. "We had a way to prevent just this sort of defamation, your honor, and it was implemented and working, but we decided to turn it off and have a debate, even though some of our senior administrators who dealt with complaints from the plaintiff in the past predicted exactly this sort of outcome." Yeah, that'll play well in discovery. If you want to replace PC, it's got to be with something which protects articles equally well or better. That's not solo semi-protection, mind you. On a couple of occasions, I've set PC for reviewers only+semi-protection to give articles the strongest sub-full-protection: only confirmed editors can even make a change, and only reviewers can accept it. Jclemens (talk) 08:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. During the actual trial, PC level 2 saw almost no usage and most discussion since has pretty much assumed that it would be dropped or forgotten. You raise an interesting point about having a use for it, even along with semi-protection. I don't want to solve this here, it's really an issue for a later phase of this RfC. I will also note that the few articles in this state could be fully protected, in the event that this proposal is accepted, to avoid any potential legal liability until a comprehensive policy is agreed upon. While you may think your current protection is effective in all cases, it is vulnerable to the undefined duties of a reviewer today. Perhaps we need to apply a higher reviewing standard to articles under level 2 protection. —UncleDouggie (talk) 09:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Guy Macon

Discussion of comment from Guy Macon moved here per the instructions. Comment mentioned the breaking of the promise for a time-limited trial.

I agree with you. I do however believe, you've misidentified who and where promises were broken, attaching ill sentiment to the wrong antagonist. I think it is an honest mistake because this whole discussion is rot with false premise spawned by inappropriate interjections of innuendo and propaganda. If only we could know who think PC is useful and who think it has no purpose. By this poll I am convinced that some will support thinking they are supporting PC. It is as apparent now, as was said of the first straw poll, these results will not produce useful information. And it appears to have built in its own bias as well. Nothing at all like what I had hoped would emerge. My76Strat (talk) 05:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Too late, My76; see Esuzu's comment above in this section. —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 05:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

This proposal is not directly related to supporting or opposing PC, thus any confusion is irrelevant. There are many PC supporters who are correctly supporting this proposal as a way to move us forward. If keeping the trial going was so great for PC, why is it still locked in limbo? —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

In my oppose, I stated a desire to support this compromise. The reason I can not, is; It builds on a premise I do not accept. (will not) That is: I must concur that the trial ended months ago, continued without consensus, and concur that Jimbo is shown as a liar. Well I don't agree with those sentiments, I have stated why, and I have refuted them. Requiring me to adopt them as my own, creates the impasse. If the language simply stated we would like to suspend its use to facilitate discussion without distraction, I would support. I can be seen advocating such a compromise. To support a proposition which adds my name to a group who believe lies have been directly told is beyond good faith for my support. To one last point, when the idea of reaching a compromise was first being seriously considered, I was given the impression the subsequent trial would be guaranteed, not diluted to a possibility. Now I see that if this proposal advances, I can add it to my list of pipe dreams. Because it is a last stand, I will stand where I believe the best for Wikipedia is served. My76Strat (talk) 08:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the proposal about Jimbo being a liar. I guess some people supporting it think that... but there is no reason for you to have to think that in order to support the proposal. Yaris678 (talk) 11:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

My76Strat, I have no interest in recriminations, and I certainly do not simply "blame Jimbo". The wording of the poll is simple, to avoid any such confusion. Stick to supporting, opposing, and discussing this proposal - you can't seriously be objecting just because other people are unable to understand it? I think the proposal is abundantly clear on the point you're concerned about; (with emphasis to highlight

"It is proposed to remove pending changes protection from all articles, for now, with no prejudice against reinstating it in the future, in some form, based upon consensus and discussion. [..] This proposal does not affect potential future use of Pending Changes"

I have no idea how we could make that clearer. I've tried.

Also, this is a discussion, not a vote. I'm not looking for 50%, 60%, 70% - I'm looking for consensus. So if you can think of any possible compromise, to end this deadlock, let me know. What would you agree too?

Remove it on half the articles? Don't add it to any more, until we get agreement? Only allow PC on Tuesdays, Thurdays and Saturdays? I don't care. I'm absolutely willing to discuss, for consensus; frankly, anything is better than this utter, utter madness we have now.

If we cannot come to agreement on this most basic of PC issues, we're stuck in limbo, forever. Can't add to the PC scope, can't remove the current ones; impossible to get any agreement for anything. I fear for the future of the project, if such discussion/consensus is no longer possible. Best,  Chzz  ►  11:41, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I apologize that I have chosen staunch opposition. I agree that most of the rhetoric I do not wish to join is echoed in comments and not exactly the proposal. I give credit for a reasonable effort. The reason I attached some of the negativity is that I see a poetic example that mocks many of the things discussed over this trial. For one, with the many threads which condemn the straw poll, I see their reflections as if a jeer. And confusion is built right in to the proposal itself when it opens by stating the trial had closed, followed later by saying this proposal was effectively to close. My76Strat (talk) 12:09, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

And that is exactly the confusion we need to address - otherwise, we're stuck in #limbo.

The confusion is not the fault of the poll; the confusion is in our (mostly lack-of) policies and guidelines. I've already said, in that other section - it is the policy that says the trial is over; all we could do, in this proposal, is state facts. WP:PCPP policy says, "The trial is now over".

It is a mess. So let's not waste time worrying how we got in the mess; let's just clean it up. Chzz  ►  12:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

To remove the confusion in the text that went with the proposal, I have removed the phrase "it is only to end the trial". Yaris678 (talk) 13:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I've put it back. If we change the exact wording of a proposal, while it is in progress, that causes many problems. People have already expressed opinion on some exact wording - we cannot amend it now, whether it is right or wrong.

I don't think that specific edit would've eliminated the problem raised by My76Strat anyway; I believe the point xe was making was, that we're saying "The trial has ended" and that the proposal is to "end the trial" - which is, indeed, paradoxical. However, because of the stupid situation we are in - it's also true.  Chzz  ►  15:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Elipongo

Discussion of comment from Elipongo moved here per the instructions. Comment mentioned not having had a consensus that PC would be turned off after the trial period.

See [3]  Chzz  ►  03:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, a mailing list post. I do hate stuff kept off wiki. Anyway, we did request an extension, did we not? Regardless, I see no reason to shut off a useful tool because of hurt feelings. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 04:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

We did request an extension - that expired 12/31/2010. And of course that deadline's been dodged so much I will be amazed if anyone will support any trial in the future. —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.!)} 04:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The extension did not expire 12/31/2010 unless there was a delay in implementing the changes. I observed the implementation of changes so the effect of that date is irrelevant. Suggestions that there were not the things that were, is disconcerting. For example the 65% who were discounted as the significant group necessary for continuation after the trial. Or the 60% who supported continuation again, allowing if nothing was improved by December, we would turn it off and start over. Improvements were released prior to December, the trial did continue with significant consensus. This discussion is framed to validate these misconceptions and therefor is not a compromise at all. And I feel sure 65% would be called significant as long as it is related to turning it off. And what do we do if this proposal falls short of the 80% range which so many have suggested. Call it no consensus, Then what? My76Strat (talk) 04:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyone at this point - pro or con - is even advocating aiming at 80%. I've seen more the 60-75% range as the target (I myself prefer 66% as the fairest to both sides, due to the issue's divisiveness). —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 04:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It would better derive as accepted consensus if the straw poll wasn't disregarded as insignificant, while accusing an unauthorized continuation. Each requisite milestone was achieved, the trial is not running against consensus. There is a wolf in sheep's attire appealing to good commonsense while looking rather nonthreatening. I think the wolf hopes to receive the advantage of these reasonable minds, but has intentions to scoff at them for gullibility. I require better than that. My76Strat (talk) 05:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

To respond to Jeremy's comment about trial runs. I'm perfectly fine with never having a trial run again because I've found that this place doesn't work like that. Kind of like the "temporary measure" of disallowing IPs from creating articles (I'm still against that move, but good luck reversing it). We should simply decide to implement things when we want and rescind them when we decide we don't like them. That is in fact how Wikipedia actually works whether or not people like it; all this talk about "temporary" or "trial" just causes bad feelings when the reality of this place asserts itself. The nice thing about PC is that it's not mandatory, if we don't like it people will just stop using it without even having to go through a vote! —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 08:41, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

There is a wolf in sheep's attire appealing to good commonsense while looking rather nonthreatening' .... is there? But there is a problem with sheep, anyway. They tend not to have the characteristics of good leaders. Not saying anything about anyone here, y'all understand. Just wondering what the above-quoted comment was aimed at. Smacks a bit of ... summat. Can't think of the right word. Pesky (talk) 16:09, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes I apologize for using that little known analogy. What I should have said is. It looks good at face value, but with a closer look, I am concerned enough not to support. My76Strat (talk) 05:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're assuming good faith, Strat. I also, sort of, dislike being called gullible (I did hear that there is a picture of me in a dictionary somewhere). I know that there are people who oppose PC and will not change their minds, but I also think there are a good number of people who have been trained to think like lawyers. Whether this is due to their education, their time at WP, or simply a desire to adhere to the letter of an agreement I do not know. I have heard many people state that they aren't against PC, but are against the way in which it was instigated, as a trial. While I'm sure that there are some conniving souls in the mix, I can't believe that it is some vast conspiracy to get one step closer to never using the tool again. That is just too cynical for me. Cliff (talk) 05:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

That is an entirely fair observation. I will disclaim that I am conflicted by emotions which should not be assumed present in this proposal. I am stepping back from commenting further than to say: "I have arrived at the position to oppose the proposition based on my expectations". The rest I shall observe. I apologize to whatever extent I may have stumbled the project. Cheers. My76Strat (talk) 03:58, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to History2007

Discussion of comment from History2007 moved here per the instructions. Comment mentioned that more tools are needed to manage the "untenable trend towards progressive increase of the effort spent by the most active authors" to maintain quality.

Except that maintaining any objective form of "quality" is nigh-on impossible (not to mention a very slippery slope into WP:NOTCENSORED), especially on subjects that attract polemics. Silvermoon's Law applies here: The idiot-proof has already been bested by idiots. In fact, when the trial was being debated, it was all but unanimously decided that PC was not to be used for "quality control" short of removing obvious vandalism or on BLPs (which are also susceptible to extremely subjective "quality" as notable people will sue at the drop of a hat for even sourced negative press). —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 04:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I can not agree with you. I see the very existence of Pending Changes as a deterrent to vandalism in general, given that the person making the change knows that it will not go un-noticed. In my experience vandals hope their changes go un-noticed, With Pending changes that hope evaporates away. And I see Pending changes as the first step in starting to make Wikipedia protect itself. That thesis I linked to was valid and we are seeing those effects now. History2007 (talk) 07:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

This is an issue for the long-term usage of PC. It is irrelevant for ending the trial, but is a perfect example why having short-term and long-term issues intermixed is killing us. The issues surrounding long-term usage of PC are complicated and we need to be able to discuss them without the old trial hanging over us. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Killing us? I see no dead bodies yet. But I must confess the length of the discussion on PC is getting close to producing the first dead body as that of yours truly. The technical cause: "death by boredom" due to reading about this again and again. So let me sign off for now, so I will not make history by becoming the first official fatality of Wikipedia. History2007 (talk) 08:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to HJ Mitchell and SirFozzie

Ending the trial is not the same as ending PC

I think you, like others opposing the proposal, mix up two different questions: "Should we use PC at all?" and "Should the trial be stopped?". The question of the RFC here is not to stop or not stop PC usage at all, it's to stop the specific usage that is not covered by the consensus that allowed to start it. PC can (and, I fear, will) be implemented in the future using a new consensus and a clear policy but that does not mean we cannot stop the trial. Noone is trying to "rob" anyone of this tool. The point of the RFC is that those in favor of PC should gather consensus for a real implementation instead of simply prolonging the trial period indefinitely. Regards SoWhy 07:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely with SoWhy, except for the part of "and, I fear, will". Further to the related point by SirFozzie, how can you say that PC has momentum at this point? It's in a stalemate and has little chance of expansion without first honoring the terms of the original trial and clearing the air so we can move forward. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

We also didn't try and stop PC. We had a 2 month trial. There is no shame in ending a trial and conducting further discussion to reach a consensus to move forward. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think EVERYONE who votes to remove is doing so, but I think a significant percentage who are morally opposed to PC in any way, shape or form are attempting to use this to throw the emergency brakes on PC as a concept. And as I state above, we should NOT be throwing the brakes on, but instead pressing on the accelerator pedal (expanding it as quickly as the Wiki can take it). I see no reason to remove an active, working tool from the tool of administrators and registered editors in fighting against malicious vandalism, both sneaky and blatant. I think SoWhy's comment above shows.. that some people voting in this RfC fear Pending Changes WILL be fully implemented. We can work with data gathered while keeping PC on the articles it is already on. Again, I see no reason to curtail the use of a tool that helps Wikipedia fulfill its core mandates, both in mission statement, and policies. SirFozzie (talk) 07:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your observations about those who are morally opposed to PC, and I didn't expect anything else. However, the most effective roadblock to expansion of PC to date has been the never ending trial that has prevented any new consensus. As a veteran of the PC RfC trenches, I don't see how having an active trial has been of any actual advantage to the supporters of PC. They think it's an advantage, but at the end of the day, it's just a huge distraction. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

People keep asking why there is opposition, and I asked myself that too. Then I saw what SoWhy said: "PC can (and, I fear, will) be implemented in the future using a new consensus and a clear policy". Now I understand. But no worries, the handwriting is on the wall. You guys just need to accept it. A PC-like system is in the future of Wikipedia, and the handwriting is on the wall. So let us move on and implement it. History2007 (talk) 08:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I have caveated my agreement with SoWhy above, thanks for pointing out my error. I have said many times that while I don't like PC in it's current form, including the lack of policies, I believe that it has great potential in some cases and I'm not eager to see it die. I also find the current stalemate extremely frustrating, as do many others, and after having tried just above everything, the conclusion I have come to is that we must end the trial to move forward. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

There doesn't need to be a stalemate. What true harm is being done by leaving PC on articles that they are currently on, while things are being reviewed? I submit that not only is there truly no harm being done, and it has the potential to prevent harm. SirFozzie (talk) 08:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

You're correct that there doesn't need to be a stalemate if we were all logical beings that could separate such things in our heads. But human nature is such that it is a problem. I make no statement of why that is, it's just my observation of the facts on the ground. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:41, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

And that is exactly why I can never support PC - it assumes too much of Wikipedia's editors, and in most cases extremely incorrectly. —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 20:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I personally don't think PC is a good idea in general, having seen the experiences at de-wiki, but the main point is that this is not a discussion about PC in general, so comments like "lose momentum" or "rob us of a tool" are simply misplaced and thus not a good foundation to build your argument on. I am realist enough to know that PC probably can't be stopped anymore but if the community wants to implement it, then at least it should be done with a clear policy, not an indefinitely-prolonged trial. The point of a "trial" is that it ends and is then evaluated. If you continue the trial during the review, you cannot possibly review the results in any objective manner because the continued use will continually generate new data, which in then has to be reviewed, leading to an infinite loop that cannot be completed. Regards SoWhy 08:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you're committing a logical fallacy here, SoWhy. We have data up to this point. We can surely limit any review of data to that which is already gathered. To say that continuing PC means we get caught in an infinite loop is.. simply not true in that case. SirFozzie (talk) 08:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. If we continue to use PC during a hypothetical review, there is a possibility that things happen that are not in the current data, thus prompting the need to review those things as well. And while they are reviewed, other such things might happen, thus requiring further review, etc. It's our version of Achilles and the tortoise. Regards SoWhy 08:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

(de-indent) So, we make it clear beforehand that further issues will not be reviewed. The only reason this gets into the infinite loop you propose is that you seem to be building a loop back that is not already there. SirFozzie (talk) 08:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The possibility that issues are uncovered exists as long as the trial is active, so I'm not "building a loop back". Instead I'm pointing out that any complete review will have to cover all issues and that requires that no new issues can arise from the trial. If one wants to do a partial review only, then of course you are right, but I honestly see no point in that. Regards SoWhy 08:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Comparing to semi-protection and robbing momentum

SirFozzie, you compare PC to semi protection, and say that since, in your opinion, it's "better" (in that it is less restrictive), we should keep on using it. However, this only applies if we never apply PC except from in case where we would also be happy to apply semi-protection. Do you agree that we should only ever use PC in these cases? If not then surely it is irrelevant to compare PC to semi-protection? See also: Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment February 2011/Archive 2#PC is not an alternative to semi-protection. Also, isn't the "momentum" PC has a headlong rush without actually stopping to see what's happening and properly consider the implications that continued use of PC has for the future of the project? Do you think this is a good way to implement a new feature? Personally I feel it's got a little bit too much "momentum", and stopping to catch a breath and think this through a little bit would be a good idea. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 08:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It's only a headlong rush if you compare it to fingernail growth! We've been discussing flagged revisions/ pending changes for, quite literally, YEARS now. My position now is only slightly modified from what it was at the start. I initially thought we should replace semiprotection with it, now I see it being useful as part of the spectrum of page protection. We're exchanging just three options for seven options. It should be added to articles just like all forms of protection, i.e. on a reactive rather than a proactive basis. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 11:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The remainder of this discussion has been moved because it is off-topic and covers the long-term future of PC, along with a personal exchange between Elipongo and Jéské Couriano. Please keep discussion here to the proposal at hand. —UncleDouggie (talk) 09:17, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Confusion

Moved from 'oppose', as it was a commentry on the process, not a !vote  Chzz  ►  10:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

---Note: I see quite a few confused votes, those who oppose removing PC voting support, those who support voting oppose, I've made a small change (3/25, 07:25 UTC) to make it clear what the RfC vote is for, and what the options mean, in a neutral fashion. SirFozzie (talk) 07:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That refers to this edit. It was later reverted, with this edit.

For what it is worth, I agree with the reversal; whilst I understand your concern, SirFozzie - and indeed, I'm very frustrated by the constant misunderstandings - I've personally put a tremendous amount of work into trying to de-fug this mess...but given the lack of true consensus above, I think I've failed. But if people will not listen, will not consider, then there is little we can do to make it clearer. If I could, I'd have written in bold flashing letters, "Do you want PC to work, or do you want it to be stuck, forever, with no way to get agreement to improve it? YES/NO" - because that is the reality here.  Chzz  ►  11:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I supported removing PC-1 from non-BLPs, as I do not believe that PC-1 on non-BLPs is valuable. (There may be a case for applying PC-2 + semiprotection to a non-BLP when a dedicated socking vandal persists in disrupting a low-traffic article with autoconfirmed accounts.) If the non-BLP is getting heavily vandalized, then semiprotection would be appropriate. If it isn't, then leaving it unprotected would be OK, since it isn't likely to have defamatory content. BLPs, on the other hand, can destroy another person's reputation and job search. Imagine if a university got a resume from a professor looking for a job. He notices that Wikipedia has an article on this man, and he looks it up. Seeing that "xxxxx was arrested for molesting children" (unsourced and blatantly false, of course), he places the resume in the circular file and hires someone else. BLPs have real-life consequences. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Well said - and I think I agree - although, I'd like to discuss the specifics. And that's what I'd like - for us to be able to propose specific usage, like that - agree on it, and implement it. If this proposal succeeds, I think that would be feasible. Right now - due to the state of limbo - it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get any agreement.  Chzz  ►  13:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that non-BLP articles like Stargate fandom and GMT Games can attract some pretty nasty BLP material. Who's to say that pending changes on those articles are inappropriate? Jclemens (talk) 00:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) *sigh* The first edit pretty much matches what we are proposing here in my opinion. Also, please let's not fool ourselves I think this would definitely qualify as "a collection of opinions collected from a group for analysis", also known as a poll. I would change the header to the exact text "Support removal of pending changes from all articles, for now, with no prejudice against reinstating it in the future, in some form, based upon consensus and discussion" and the opposite, but I have a feeling people will complain that the header is too long and takes up too much space on their watchlist. Maybe we can transclude it? --nn123645 (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

We can't change the question, once we've started gathering answers. Any edit to the format of this - which includes the section headings - would be misrepresentation. People have supported what they read; we cannot edit it. Right or wrong. Even if it was just a missing full-stop  Chzz  ►  16:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It may be bold, but we are not fully vested that withdrawing for the shortest interim to correct these few important things, and then go forward is not viable. Otherwise I so fully believe the exact underpinning is in place to discredit the results and a a thing repeated that we have learned. My76Strat (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It's impossible to word anything as controversial as PC to everyone's satisfaction. We finally got consensus on the current working wording on the talk page, so we went for it. This isn't a poll so I think that your objections can easily be handled within the rationale for your comment, so long as you are clear about what you want done to the articles currently under PC. —UncleDouggie (talk) 04:30, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I am fine with accepting consensus as if emerges. I am also stubborn at attempting to include my thoughts about how it effects me as a user. (perhaps others) But I did have a fond interest in seeing this program through. So here, which could be the end, I am suggesting with the best of what I know and best wishes for Wikipedia, this important proposal requires me to oppose. And if we have to try again, this is the work we must be willing to do if getting it right is the goal. My76Strat (talk) 05:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Confusion, part 2

Can someone please tell me,

1. If PC is working, why aren't there clear guidelines/policies for admins to follow regarding PC? Is it really "working", then—should we just forget about trying to form clearer guidelines and let is stay ambiguous, because that is what people believe is working?

2. If there is no reason to temporarily remove PC and we can form consensus while it remains on, why is there still no consensus after eight months?^* No one can prove there we can't form consensus with it off (actually the consensus for the initial trial occurred with it off and while it's been on nothing definite has been determined), but I think it's slowly becoming obvious that PC staying on is hindering progress (example: this RfC is wasting another week, we need to make a decision either way now).

Thanks, /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 15:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

^*Nine months.^[4]  Chzz  ►  16:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Fetch, I understand and share your frustration that this issue has completely stalled any discussion of the future while we deal with the present. As can be seen here you and I are nt the only ones who think the whole idea that we have to settle this first is a bit silly. I have repeatedly characterized it as needless obstructionism and still believe that this entire sub-RFC is a waste of time that is impeding further progress. That being said I was overruled on this point and we are stuck with this sideshow for now. I think those who have been critical of the way I was handling things may now have a somewhat better understanding of how difficult it is to manage an RFC on a contentious and complicated issue like this. This is why I have been advocating for a more structured format aimed at gathering input instead of stirring up fights between polarized positions. I sincerely hope that once this side issue is settled I will be permitted to move ahead with that process and we will not be forced instead to continue this us-vs-them style of RFC. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I continue to see people in the "oppose" section say something to the effect of "why do we need to turn it off to generate consensus?" My response is, again, why the hell do you think we haven't got a damn consensus already? Anyone got any more bright ideas, like keeping PC on forever because there's not going to be a consensus while we keep arguing over temporary nonsense? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 21:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is everybody so keen to do something now? Is the current state so messed up that it threatens the survival of wikipedia as a whole? On a project that promises to be long-term, like WP does, it doesn't seem right to make hurried, rash decisions and to be so concerned with speed. Cliff (talk) 04:48, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that those people in the oppose section don't understand the importance that a bureaucracy (or a bunch of lawyers) places on exact wording of a contract or agreement. To have something written, and then not follow it to exact specifications makes some people physically ill. Cliff (talk) 04:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The concern is really that too much time and energy is being put into discussions about PC with no progress being made. The purpose of this proposal is to change that by removing a huge distraction. —UncleDouggie (talk) 05:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Fetchcomms: The answer is very simply because not everyone reads the page. A comment containing a question that is abundantly answered on the same page doesn't carry much weight unless it is accompanied with some type of rejection of the answers given. —UncleDouggie (talk) 05:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Cliff, you realize the original trial was set for two months, after which it was planned that the community figure out what to do next. Now we're at nine months. Do you like being behind schedule at everything? Because last I checked, that was a Bad Thing™. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

This user is not schedule-oriented. So he doesn't mind taking extra time to figure things out. Cliff (talk) 16:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Consensus

I'd like to remind anyone who can be bothered to read this, that this is a discussion, not a poll.

We got into the current state, because of polling. Let's learn from our mistakes.

We're looking to develop consensus. If anybody has any ideas how we can work towards that, I'd love to hear them.

Frankly, at this point, I would happily !support a suggestion to "Only have PC on articles that start with the letter S, but not on a Thursday", if I thought it had a realistic chance of success.

I don't mind what we agree to, but we really really need to agree to something.

Beer and a chat? Just to cool down with? Pesky (talk) 18:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

If this proposal fails, then we're still stuck.

At the time of writing, the numbers are 53/28. I also think, increasingly, people are misreading this as a "YES/NO" to Pending Changes - which it is not. I don't care about numbers; I'd like us all to agree on something.

I ask all the !oppose above: do you think that it will be possible to form a coherent policy for use of PC? You've seen the !voting here; do you think there's a chance that any proposal for "Use it on all BLPs" or whatever has any chance of passing? Not while we're in this mire, it doesn't.

Usually, if we can't form consensus, the default position is the status quo. But here, there is no status quo.

There's no agreed policy for current use of PC.

Any attempt at proposing one is going to meet with even more difficulty in forming a consensus than this one is.

So please - remember it is a discussion; if anyone opposing has any ideas how we can resolve this ongoing turmoil, please speak up.

Thank you for listening,  Chzz  ►  17:21, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

There certainly IS a status quo, the PC being active on the subset of BLP articles. SirFozzie (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a de facto position, but hardly status quo as PC is in effect squatting on those articles. The retention of a pilot (as in a small scale test or application, not de guy flyin de plane) can frequently cause problems for a larger rollout, as it is doing here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Not to be all "I told you so" but my modified questionnaire that was forced aside while this phase is underway was aimed at settling all these matters in a less contentious fashion. The idea behind that process is to gather input rather having a dogfight between positions, and to use that input to construct a rough guide that can be improved as we use the tool (assuming it is kept) into a fully fleshed out policy. Even if this phase fails to achieve any consensus we can (and obviously I am advocating that we should) still proceed with my proposal afterwards.Beeblebrox (talk) 20:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a discussion for the talk page, not for this proposal. Just because you want something to be less contentious doesn't make it so. —UncleDouggie (talk) 04:48, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why it keeps getting mentioned that users who have commented in the "oppose" section are confused as to whether or not this is a "YES/NO" to Pending Changes. I don't think there is any real evidence to support this and most users make clear they oppose the removal of PC, whether it be temporary or not. The same argument can be applied for those who support the move since their motives may or may not be biased by their opinion of PC. Polyamorph (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I know at least one user who supports the use of PC but supports removing it temporarily to work out a more permanent solution. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

As for the "confused" part, opposes #10, #11, #12 and #24 for example (at the time of this comment) clearly express that they !vote based on the merit of PC itself, not the trial. So I think there is no doubt that at least some of those opposing are confused or at least their comments look as if they are. Regards SoWhy 09:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes I agree the comments look like they might be confused but this doesn't mean that they are, but besides support for PC isn't necessarily an invalid reasoning for opposing the end of the trial. I must admit though that I originally mis-read Chzz's point, nowhere do they suggest that it's only the opposed votes that might be biased by their opinion of PC. Polyamorph (talk) 09:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Wait, wait—this RfC is not about ending the trial. The trial is over, and has been since August 2010, when a) it was scheduled to end, and b) when data stopped being regularly collected. We are currently in an interim period where PC is on but guidelines on its current and future usage are unclear, and this RfC was started in the hopes that PC might be turned off until a new trial or proposal or whatnot can be formed. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 20:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

<shrug>Trials aren't over just because they're scheduled to be over, but your second point (about data collection) makes sense. Who knows? It probably is emblematic of the depth of disagreement over PC that consensus doesn't exist even on as seemingly basic a question as whether the trial has ended. But I can't see that it makes much difference either way. Clearly, many editors understood that PC would not continue to be applied after the scheduled trial period without consensus. Whether continued application of PC constitutes an extension of the trial is really sort of a moot point, isn't it? I'll cheerfully agree to disagree.

About the possible confusion of some participants in this phase: while some additional boldface in the proposal description might have been nice, the wording is perfectly clear. I confess to holding little sympathy for anyone who weighs in to support or oppose a proposal without making quite sure what the proposal proposes. Rivertorch (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I just used the word "trial" when I possibly should have used more precise language. But the fact that PC remains in use on a number of articles is, in my opinion, a good thing. I personally don't think PC should be turned off, whether it was originally scheduled to be or not. I think it is a good thing for wikipedia and a good thing for the articles it is currently protecting. I hear your arguments for removing PC (even if only temporarily) but I disagree that it is necessary to do so. Polyamorph (talk) 08:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to MC10

(section moved from above by —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} on 06:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC))

1. From your comment, it appears as though you advocate keeping it on because you see it as useful now, not because there's some reason to keep it going to trial it, and that you don't see the current implementation as a trial at all, instead being an actual use of PC, having been snuck through the back door without full consensus, and you're perfectly fine with this and think it should continue. Is this correct? --Yair rand (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

   user Yair rand, your nine edits to article space in the last three months are greatly appreciated but please allow editors to comment, you can discuss your experiences with pending protection, you don't appear to have any experience with pending protection, if you actually have any, on the talkpage. Off2riorob (talk) 00:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   Do you have reason to debase someone's experience based merely on editcount? :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 01:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   I have had essentially no direct experience with PC, but I don't think that prohibits me from asking a question to a user who posted their opinion in this discussion. --Yair rand (talk) 01:58, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   I have the same request for clarification on MC10's comment that Yair rand has made above. I hope that my 1200 article space edits over the last 3 months is deemed sufficiently worthy to participate in this discussion. —UncleDouggie (talk) 04:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   Probably not. Off2riorob has objected to my participation in these discussions in the past on the same basis, and that was after I hit 45,000 edits. Apparently, they have to be very special edits that experience the editing flow in the way a normal editor would before your opinion counts for much.—Kww(talk) 05:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   I think it was clear from the first poll that O2RR has a bias for PC, much like I'm biased against. —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 06:41, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   Yes, apparently very special edits. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 06:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

   Off2riorob has no business telling people whether or not they can participate. If a participant's comments are deemed unsubstantive by the people organizing the consensus, that is their call, not his. Further, I just cast my !vote above, be it as it may. I still think removing it from BLP can do more harm than good if someone comes along the next day and puts libelous information in the article. While it's in the edit history always, it's less likely to be noticed if someone quietly shuffles it aside with PC, and we can always surpress those conflicting edits as well in extreme cases. CycloneGU (talk) 17:01, 28 March 2011 (UTC)