Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about adherence to the neutral point of view in context!

Before posting here, consult the neutral point of view policy page and the FAQ explainer. Also, make sure to discuss the disagreement at the article's talk page. Fringe theories often involve questions about neutral point of view. These should be discussed at the dedicated noticeboard. You must notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{subst:NPOVN-notice}} to do so. Additional notes: Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments, not on vote count or sheer size of argument. Consensus in previous discussions does not make policy, but you can generally rely on it. The list of articles where users flagged a point-of-view concern is here. This page is not a forum for discussions unrelated to the neutral point of view. We have a separate noticeboard for concerns about original research (material made up by a Wikipedia editor), and another dedicated noticeboard for questions about contextual reliability of a source. Start a new discussion

Abe5678's edits to Chris Collins (county executive)

I am very new at editing, so forgive me if the wording of this notice strays from protocol.

In Chris Collins (county executive), an article on a congressional candidate, an editor has removed a section titled "Controversies" numerous times now (see [1]) after my own addition of the section, another editor's additions, and reversions of his edits from myself and from much more experienced editors. The editor has been contacted twice on his Talk page (see [2], and I attempted starting a discussion on the article's Talk page as well (see [3])...before I knew the correct definition of "edit warring."

This is pretty small in the grand scheme of things, but it nonetheless appears to constitute censorship and an issue of a less-than-neutral point of view, so I'd appreciate any guidance on how to proceed. For further context, this person has edited only this one article, and has a history of removing negative information from the page since 2010. As of this writing, another editor has since restored the section, but it seems likely "Abe5678" will revert this again if history is any indication. Sssppp888222 (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Given that Abe5678 (talk · contribs) has not made edits to any other article, what this looks like is a slow-moving edit war. I've cautioned him about that and invited him (again) to discuss the situation on the article's talk page. —C.Fred (talk) 21:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

And since he refused, I just blocked him for 31 hours for violation of the three-revert rule. —C.Fred (talk) 22:45, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you both for addressing this. LaTeeDa (talk) 14:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

I originally posted this on the fringe theories noticeboard, but I'm not sure whether the issue is most relevant to that board or this one. Please look at my report here on WP:FTN for the details.

Briefly, we seem to have reached an impasse at Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories regarding the proper treatment of Joe Arpaio, an Arizona sheriff who has been going to great lengths to "investigate" the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. The NPOV question here is complicated by the fact that the underlying aim of this particular article is to document various fringe theories as fringe theories, without giving them undue prominence or credibility.

This article has been fully protected because of edit warring, but that protection is due to expire in about four hours' time, and I unfortunately predict the problem will resume as soon as the protection expires. Any comments or suggestions for a more effective, long-term intervention would be welcome. Thanks. — Richwales 04:32, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

We appear to have reached a consensus for new wording regarding Joe Arpaio, so I think it's OK to close this request for assistance now. — Richwales 21:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

A pair of eyes please?

I've developed an article I'm proposing to call badger culling in the United Kingdom, which is presently in my sandbox. In writing it I've needed to suppress strongly-held personal opinions, so please could someone supply an independent pair of eyes to take a look at it and check for NPOV issues? All the best—S Marshall T/C 19:05, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a closer look. Do you have sources for some specific points? I'm thinking in particular of the "costs a tenth of what cage-trapping costs", because this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Guardian article cited at the end of that section, and also the "under EU law it is not currently permissible to vaccinate cattle with a needle" and "EU declared Scotland...". bobrayner (talk) 20:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for your input. All three of those are sourced now.—S Marshall T/C 20:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Ledes are very difficult to write. I would cut out all the "controversial topic", and say that badger culling is a response to bovine TB. I recall reading about the ban on cattle vaccination in the Muckspreader column of Private Eye. It might be considered reliable, or might lead you to other sources. A useful article, thank you. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for your advice, I've done that.—S Marshall T/C 20:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Can a citation be found for "The government had been struggling to keep a lid on compensation payments", (keep a lid on) reads like a POV, if its someones POV that you can cite then you can put it in using WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV otherwise that stands out as an editors POVWebwidget (talk) 21:30, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

In 2011, about 26,000 cattle were slaughtered because of bTB, at a cost of £100 million.[16] to who? its begging to say "to the tax payer" if that is who foots the bill. Webwidget (talk) 21:35, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• Could you explain why "keep a lid on" sounds POV, please? I've clarified the other matter.—S Marshall T/C 21:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It sounds to me and just my opinion that the government are trying to keep things quite like there is some kind of cover up to prevent this coming out in to the public domain which sounds like a POV without a citation to back it up, if they are trying to keep a lid on it then there should be an RS talking about this being the case Webwidget (talk) 21:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I see. Yes, that's potentially confusing, I'll rephrase it.—S Marshall T/C 22:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Yasin al-Qadi

I just came across this article Yasin al-Qadi which I need a pair of eyes to look at this . Major changes were made to this page in the last month and I'm noticing references to blogs, personal websites, non-credible websites, and "news" organizations. Especially the HUGE HUGE red flag is the "Mitt Romney Connection" ViriiK (talk) 23:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the list of references up to number 87. I counted about 26 possible blogs and websites. And there are a lot more to look at. Is there a section in particular that concerns you? I don't really have time to look at every reference in question.Coaster92 (talk) 05:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It was pretty much the entire thing of that user's entire edit to that article. There was so many guilt-by-association accusations construed by the user's view with no balancing POV. My concern wasn't just the sources but it was just blatant conjecture. The "Mitt Romney Connection" was an entire "Ahh, you were connected to so-so connected to the main person so therefore you're guilty!" If the world operated like that, we'd all be in jail. ViriiK (talk) 17:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello ViriiK, please see the talk page for the Yasin al-Qadi biography. Thanks to your pointed criticism, some of which is reasonable, I intend to re-write the article from scratch, and I hope you will be willing to share your full and frank opinion of the results as the article progresses slowly, section by section. My goal is to produce a solid, peer-reviewed, objective article that is well sourced and does not sound like "blatant conjecture." Unfortunately, I cannot agree with you that the Mitt Romney section was conjecture. It was actually very well sourced, based on a Wall Street Journal article that clearly indicates Yasin al-Qadi's friend, Zuhair Fayez, was helping him to skirt UN Sanction by moving money through off shore accounts. Zuhair Fayez really is on the Board of Directors at University of Colorado (their website says so), and Bruce Benson, the president of CU, really is a major fund-raiser for Mitt Romney. He was national co-chair of the Romney campaign in 2008. With regard to "conjecture" about what all of this means, you may be right. Wikipedia is no place for speculation. However, I will stand by those sources as solid, and the information really is very relevant to Yasin al-Qadi, who remains in the news. Bringing the profile up to date requires going into some very emotional and political issues (he is extremely controversial). If you have suggestions for maintaining balance and objectivity, they will be greatly appreciated. Sniping, however, is not helpful. Please keep it to a minimum. Thank you, Markshern7 (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)Markshern7 Markshern7

Which exactly meets the definition of conjecture. What does Mitt Romney have to do with Yasin al-Qadi directly? The answer is nothing. Just because A is associated with B and B is associated with C and C is associated with D does not mean D is associated with A. In this case, Yasin al-Qadi (A) is a friend of Zuhair Fayez (B) who works with Bruce Benson (C) and is a fundraiser for Mitt Romney (D). There is no direct connection here therefore it should have been left out. Another example, let's say Osama Bin Laden. Osama Bin Laden declared war on the United States in the 90's which Bill Clinton was the President at the time but George W. Bush took office so therefore there is a "connection" between Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush. What does that mean? Does it mean they're friends now? If you want to go ahead and establish a Mitt Romney connection using the same pattern you use again which is absurd by any standard, I will report it again and get it removed. ViriiK (talk) 22:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, first of all I think it means you have not read the Wikipedia article on Arbusto Energy. Bush really was in business with the Bin Laden family. But more importantly, your point is well taken. It is not the job of Wikipedia editors to "connect the dots." That's called synthesis or Original Research (a no-no). My point is that it may be equally wrong for biography writers to ignore or suppress current information. That's called censorship. Modern day propaganda is largely built on the suppression of "inconvenient truths." Half truths and sins of omission damage fairness and distort objectivity every bit as much as the inclusion of false information. To erase data, to erase points on the map, to fail to record ALL relevant information to the best of one's ability, is to distort the truth and to live in a distorted world of half-truths. Ignoring information and erasing uncomfortable facts does not return one to a state of fairness or objectivity. The story of Yasin al-Qadi is a story full of distortions time 10, because he is so political. Striking a rational balance is going to be very difficult. I would appreciate your help in achieving that balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markshern7 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't care what I have not read or have read. I know about the whole "Arbusto Energy" but we're talking about the Bin Laden Family which is the largest construction group in Saudi Arabia, big deal! However the story is irrelevant because the investor died before the 9/11 attack ending it there. The point still stands. As you acknowledge, none of the Wikipedia editors including yourself are not allowed to connect the dots to make up a story. If you want to do that, go make your own blog and write there. There is no censorship going on here. You were just relying on bad sources to fabricate a story which went against WP:LIBEL rules which brings legal issues against wikipedia. There were some reliable sources which you again skewed it to offer a certain story contrary to writer's intentions of those articles. Again remember, Wikipedia is not a newspaper or a soapbox, see WP:NOT ViriiK (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

A Thousand Plateaus

There is an ongoing argument at the article on A Thousand Plateaus about whether to include the following sentence: "Physicsts Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont suggest that, like several of Deleuze and Guattari's other works, A Thousand Plateaus contains many passages that use scientific terms in arbitrary or misleading ways." The sentence is properly sourced, to a widely praised academic book, but two editors - IP address 108.213.200.251 and 271828182 (note that that's not an IP address, despite the numerical name) have objected to it, claiming that it does not meet the requirements of WP:NPOV. Specifically, they argue that Sokal and Bricmont's view is not "significant" in the sense understood by NPOV ("Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.") I've tried to explain, during the long and tedious discussion that has resulted from this disagreement (see here), that "significant" in the sense that NPOV uses the term basically means non-fringe. The IP has simply rejected this outright, stating "Your reading of the policy has no basis in fact" without offering any further argument.

The IP has also asserted that there is consensus for removing the Sokal and Bricmont material altogether, which is not the case, as Maclean25 supported inclusion in some form. It removed the material most recently here. I apologize for bringing this dispute here, but I see little alternative, due to the persistence of the IP. Comments from editors not previously involved in the discussion would be welcome. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Sokal and Bricmont mention the actual topic of the article - the book A Thousand Plateaus once in their book, and only in passing (as one of a couple of books they just list and give a series of page numbers for saying "and there's bad stuff here too.") I agree that Sokal and Bricmont are a significant view on the authors in general, and I agree that a section of the Gilles Deleuze article, for instance, should discuss Sokal and Bricmont. But I see no evidence that they are significant commenters on this specific book by Deleuze and Guattari. I've suggested providing, on the talk page, secondary sources showing that Sokal and Bricmont's commentary on this specific book is significant and has been quoted in other articles, but Polisher of Cobwebs has flatly refused to provide any such sources. Absent that, I simply don't see how a passing mention on one page of a book can be called significant even if the book is itself a significant source on other related topics. Again, I don't mean this as some sort of broad "Sokal and Bricmont are a marginal view that ought not be mentioned anywhere." There are articles in which their views deserve a significant hearing. But I don't think they are automatically worthy of mention on every single work by every single author they talk about. When they don't mention a work beyond a fleeting list of page numbers and can't be shown to be a significant viewpoint on that specific work then they shouldn't be included. When they can, on the other hand, they should. For instance, if we were to have an article on The Subversion of the Subject, an essay by Jacques Lacan that Sokal and Bricmont tore into and where their critique is very widely mentioned and debated, I would agree that a mention of Sokal and Bricmont is wholly in order. But that doesn't seem true here - it seems like a minor part of their book and a trivial part of A Thousand Plateaus's larger critical and academic reception.

The idea that the due weight portion of NPOV is just a ban on fringe sources, meanwhile, is absurd. Fringe sources, it notes, should be all but completely excluded. But even within reliable and mainstream sources there's an issue of due weight, which is also the policy that governs how much attention we give to any given viewpoint. When dealing with a book like A Thousand Plateaus, which has over ten thousand citations in other academic works - and that's just its English translation - merely being an academic source is not sufficient to establish that it should be mentioned in the article. And when the discussion of the book is as fleeting as Sokal and Bricmont's is I think it's a stretch to say that it should be included prima facie, without further evidence. 108.213.200.251 (talk) 14:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The fact that Sokal and Bricmont mention A Thousand Plateaus "once in their book, and only in passing" is absolutely and utterly irrelevant for purpose of determining whether theirs is a significant view in the sense in which "significant" is defined by WP:NPOV. Nowhere in the policy does it say that whether a view is significant or not has anything to do with the number of pages someone spends discussing something. The IP complains that there is "no evidence that they are significant commenters on this specific book by Deleuze and Guattari." It appears to be using "significant" in some other sense entirely than the sense which WP:NPOV is concerned with. The IP writes that, "The idea that the due weight portion of NPOV is just a ban on fringe sources, meanwhile, is absurd." It may be absurd. It's also a view I've never supported at any time, thus the IP is trying to rebut a view that isn't mine. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 20:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The article is about a specific book, A Thousand Plateaus, by Deleuze & Guattari. This is the only mention of that book by Sokal and Bricmont:

"Should the reader entertain any further doubts about the ubiquity of pseudo-scientific language in Deleuze and Guattari's work, he or she is invited to consult, in addition to the references given in the footnotes, pages 20-24, 32, 36-42, 50, 117-133, 135-142, 151-162, 197, 202-207, and 214-217 of What Is Philosophy?, and pages 32-33, 142-143, 211-212, 251-252, 293-295, 361-365, 369-374, 389-390, 461, 469-473, and 482-490 of A Thousand Plateaus."

That is, Sokal and Bricmont do not discuss A Thousand Plateaus in any detail at all. They refer to it in passing. While Sokal and Bricmont's views on Deleuze and Guattari's works in general are significant, and are included in the main article on Gilles Deleuze, their view on A Thousand Plateaus is not a significant view, as it is a fleeting mention without any specific discussion of the subject of the WP article. To include a sentence almost as long as the original source's fleeting discussion would be to give undue weight. "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. [...] An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and NPOV, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." 271828182 (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:NPOV does not define "significant" in terms of the number of pages someone spends discussing something. That's quite simply an irrelevant issue. I think the key word in the part of WP:NPOV 271828182 quotes is "may." This is an issue of judgement. I think it's perfectly reasonable to (briefly) cite what a famous book says about another famous book, even if it says something about it only in passing. To get some sense of perspective on this, consider the fact that the article cites Antonio Negri's view that A Thousand Plateaus is "the most important philosophical text of the 20th century." I'd like to ask 271828182 how many pages Negri spends establishing this rather surprising and unconventional view, which hardly represents the thinking of most philosophers? Many, or just a few? If it's just a few, then your argument against Sokal and Bricmont would apply equally against Negri as well, but you've never suggested that the mention of Negri is unreasonable. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 20:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

You never asked. I'm not attached to Negri's judgment. It sounds like the sort of thing some editor added to the article to establish notability, though, so it may call for different standards than the Sokal and Bricmont sentence. In any case, I'm glad to see you agree that what counts as "significant" is a matter of judgment rather than claiming that any comment, however scanty, that a famous book makes about another famous book is ipso facto "significant". (Lest you accuse me of erecting a straw man, here are your words: "It appears self-evident to me that views expressed about a book in a famous book that received widespread praise are indeed significant.") Do you have a response to my reductio, namely, that your position implies we should litter articles with every stray mention of famous books by other famous books? (E.g., inserting John Allen Paulos' views into articles on the Flood?) 271828182 (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

What I said seemed self-evident to me was a matter of my judgement. Generally, one would indeed expect a famous book's comment about another famous book to be worth reporting, even if only briefly. For that matter, comments in books that aren't famous can also be worth mentioning in many cases. WP:NPOV is intentionally meant to be a flexible policy, and it doesn't automatically suggest that such material either should or shouldn't be included in any given case. In this case, I don't think it's reasonable to call criticism of a book "litter." It is helpful to readers to inform them that a book has been criticized by well-known writers.

The Negri material, by the way, is apparently sourced to Communists Like Us. I don't have access to Communists Like Us, but I was fortunate enough to be able to find New Lines of Alliance, New Spaces of Liberty free online from Mayflybooks.org. It appears to be a republication of Communists Like Us under a different title, and after searching the document and looking through it carefully, I can report that it simply doesn't mention A Thousand Plateaus, neither to call it the most important philosophical text of the 20th century nor to say anything else about it. So I suspect that the Negri material is wrongly sourced. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The biggest difference is that Negri's work is explicitly built out from Deleuze and Guattari's, with their concept of deteritorialization being the basis of Negri's work and something spelled out primarily in A Thousand Plateaus. This makes the connection much larger than that of Sokal and Bricmont. I'm not sure why the source used isn't Empire itself - someone who owns a copy of the book should have no trouble fixing that, though. But more to the point, finding secondary sources that comment explicitly on Negri's reading of A Thousand Plateaus is absolutely trivial: [4] [5] [6] [7]. It's very easy to show quite thoroughly that Negri's commentary on this specific book is an oft-cited thing and thus a significant perspective on the book. I've only spent about ten minutes trying, but it proved much harder to do that with Sokal and Bricmont - their commentary on Deleuze and Guattari is oft-cited, but seemingly not their commentary on this specific book. 108.213.200.251 (talk) 04:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If their argument is solely that it isn't "significant," then I reject that argument. These are notable physicists who are criticizing an aspect of his book. As someone said above, it's irrelevant how many pages they spend discussing him. We're not talking about an entire section on this, we're talking about one brief sentence. I'm hesistant about "like several of Deleuze and Guattari's other works." Unless it is crystal clear and accepted that this is true, it seems to me more appropriate, in light of NPOV, to rewrite sentence as "Physicsts Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont suggest that A Thousand Plateaus contains many passages that use scientific terms in arbitrary or misleading ways, as is the case with several of Deleuze and Guattari's other works." This way it's shown that this is according to the physicists, and not to the Wikipedia editor, regardless of his views. But generally, I believe the sentence should be kept. --Activism1234 02:05, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions to improve this material. I'll make the change. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 08:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't think that the brevity of mention precludes the possibility that their commentary on A Thousand Plateaus is significant. It should also be made clear, Deleuze and Guattari are not physicists, nor is their book about physics. So that Sokal and Bricmont are notable physicists is of tangental relevance here - they're commenting outside their field. While, in this case, their comments outside of their field are broadly significant - as I've said, I have no doubt that they should be included on a discussion of, say, Gilles Deleuze - this surely doesn't filter down endlessly to every subtopic of every writer they discuss.

I'd make an argument by analogy. There are frequently cited and appropriately credentialed climate skeptics, and their viewpoints are correctly discussed on top level articles on the topic of climate change. But as we get into secondary and tertiary topics in climate science the broad disputes about climate change stop getting aired in each article, and rightly so. Because the overall dispute on climate change is of interest as an overall dispute, but it's not a major part of the discussion of each and every detail. A similar situation exists here - there is a general line of critique against postmodernist theory and particularly Deleuze and Guattari that Sokal and Bricmont form a major part of. But it doesn't follow that Sokal and Bricmont should be mentioned on subtopics within the authors they critique unless their commentary on that specific subtopic is of notable significance to that subtopic as distinct from the whole.

Now, perhaps I'm wrong and Sokal and Bricmont are a significant viewpoint on this specific aspect of Deleuze and Guattari's work as opposed to a significant viewpoint on their work in general. I am open to that possibility. I just want to see some evidence - secondary sources discussing Sokal and Bricmont's views on A Thousand Plateaus specifically - that indicates significance of this line of criticism. I'm surprised, honestly, that a request for sources like this is proving controversial. 108.213.200.251 (talk) 14:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies on sourcing do not, so far as I'm aware, require that a source's comments about a book be discussed in other books in order for them to be mentioned in an article about that book. This is just as well, because would be an unreasonably restrictive requirement that would make expanding the contents of articles much more difficult. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 05:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

No, but they do require that a source's comments on a subject be a significant viewpoint, and I don't really see how, in the case of a dispute, that's going to be determined without evidence of some sort. I'm not proposing secondary mention as a requirement for insertion of material. I am proposing that in this specific case, when there's sane reason to question whether or not this particular perspective is significant in terms of this particular topic, that further sources might help. 108.213.200.251 (talk) 19:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Lists of State leaders by decade in the 11th century

I've got a problem with some of these articles in that they list, with various dates, early United Monarchy kings whose existence and dates are debates (List of state leaders in 1040s BC and other lists), mythical Irish kings at pages such as List of state leaders in the 13th century BC who are now considered to be pseudohistory (List of High Kings of Ireland, and other mythical kings such as Latinus Silvius without stating their status as disputed or mythical. Obviously we are not going to call Saul or David, etc mythical, but as it is a fact they are disputed, then how should we phrase this? And should we actually have any clearly mythical kings (although I'd guess there are people who dispute that also). A number of these (as with the United Monarchy rules and Ancient Egyptian ones) have very uncertain dates also, but I guess that's another issue. Dougweller (talk) 13:18, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Request review of Rubio continuing reversions

State the article being discussed.

Article on "Marco Rubio", Major Section on "Personal Life"

Include diff[erence]s to the specific change being proposed, paste text here.

Text as it appeared earlier:

Personal life

Rubio married Jeanette Dousdebes, a former Miami Dolphins cheerleader, in 1997. She is of Colombian descent, and together they have four children named Amanda, Daniella, Anthony, and Dominic.[37] Rubio and his family live in West Miami, Florida.[1][38] Rubio attends Catholic Mass as well as a Southern Baptist church in West Kendall, Florida.[39][12][40]

"Son of exiles" controversy

In October 2011, the St. Petersburg Times and The Washington Post reported that Rubio's previous statements that his parents were forced to leave Cuba in 1959, after Fidel Castro came to power, were incorrect as they had in fact left Cuba in 1956 during the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista. According to The Washington Post, Rubio's "embellishments" resonate with many voters in Florida, who would not be as impressed by his family being economic migrants seeking a better life in the U.S. instead of political refugees from a communist regime.[7]

Rubio responded, "The real essence of my family’s story is not about the date my parents first entered the United States. Or whether they traveled back and forth between the two nations. Or even the date they left Fidel Castro’s Cuba forever and permanently settled here."[41][42][43]

Text as it currently appears:

Questioned immigration story

In October 2011, the St. Petersburg Times and The Washington Post reported that Rubio's previous statements that his parents were forced to leave Cuba in 1959, after Fidel Castro came to power, were incorrect; they had in fact left Cuba in 1956, during the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista.

In response to the controversy, Senator Rubio’s office elaborated on the events in question in the following way. The office noted that after arrival in the U.S. in 1956, his parents returned to Cuba after Castro’s takeover (i.e., as legal immigrants returning to their home country for a visit with extended family), with possible intent to return to Cuba. In particular, the office stated that Senator Rubio's father, Mario, remained in the U.S., in Florida, in 1961, “wrapping up the family’s matters" while his mother, Oriales, returned to Cuban with their two children “with the intention of remaining permanently”, but that it soon became clear to the visiting Rubios that “Cuba was headed ... toward Communism", leading to a return to the U.S. within weeks.[7] While headlining the conclusion that Rubio embellished his imigration story in political presentations, the same Washington Post article included examination of the passports of Mario and Oriales Rubio, and confirmed the underlying travel contentions made by the Senator's office: that following admission to the U.S. in 1956 and Castro ascendance to power in January 1959, Oriales Rubio made 4 documented trips to Cuba, including a month-long visit in February-March 1961, for a total time in Castro's Cuba of just over 2 months (with visits by the father, Mario, being a shorter five days).[7] Senator Rubio has clarified information on his senatorial web pages, where it now states that "My faith in America’s promise was shaped early on by my parents who left Cuba in 1956 and, after Fidel Castro solidified his communist grip, were never able to return."[37] He has otherwise not altered the essence of his family's immigration story in response to the Post's and related stories, noting that it is "not about the date my parents first entered the United States. Or whether they traveled back and forth between the two nations. Or even the date they left Fidel Castro’s Cuba forever and permanently settled here",[38][39][40] but about the aspirations that the family sought and achieved through its immigration. Even so, The Washington Post story suggests that Rubio's purported "embellishments" might resonate with voters in Florida, who could be less impressed by economic migrants seeking a better life in the U.S., rather than political refugees from a communist regime.[7] Notably, as of July 2012, the Background subsection (tab) of the WP Politics Section of the Washington Post states that "Rubio was born in Miami to parents who fled Cuba after Communist leader Fidel Castro's takeover."[41]

Marriage, family, and religion

Senator Rubio married his teenage sweetheart; Jeanette Dousdebes-Rubio, from a family of Colombian descent, also attended South Miami High School, though their meeting came at a later neighborhood function (he at age 19, she at age 17).[42][43] Dousdebes-Rubio worked as a bank teller, joined the Miami Dolphins cheerleaders with her younger sister in 1997 (where on game days, the young Rubio cheered from the stands); she had interests in fashion design before expecting their first child, and now stays at home with their four children, Amanda, Daniella, Anthony, and Dominic, as well as leading a weekly woman's bible study group from their home.[44][1][45] Rubio attends Catholic Mass, and Christ Fellowship, a nondenominational church in West Kendall, Florida.[46][47][12][48][49] Rubio and his family live in West Miami, Florida. [edit]

Concisely state the problem perceived with the text in question.

The substance of the issue is that an editor seems to want to maintain control over this section, allowing no edits, and so repeatedly reverts the longer form with greater information and citations, to the shorter -- without explanation or evaluation of the added content.

The edits made here were repeatedly explained in the talk section. The response was nevertheless to repeatedly revert them without discussion. In the science areas where I write extensively, this never happens. Revisions are constantly added, further revised, etc. It therefore leads me to believe there may be an underlying subject bias that leads this editor to want the shorter to remain.

This is stated in particular, because the longer article (i) adds clarifying information from the same sources as the original article, (ii) adds additional sources and information from reputable sources (Fla newspapers, Washington Post site), and (iii) that the added information expands the available information on two subjects (facts regarding immigration, and spouse).

The expanded content should -- in this academic's opinion -- be accepted until critical review indicates other, better content. (It is not my claim this longer version is the best writing, or that it is complete.)

It is, however, much more complete and balanced insofar as it is clearly citation-based, to whit it:

   + clarifies Sen Rubio's wife's correct legal name, as reported in a Fla newspaper expose (earlier, on senatorial candidate spouses)
   + provides other details regarding the Senator's spouse's history and occupational pursuits (same source),
   + indicates a change in the Senator's representation of the immigration matter (Rubio website),
   + provides the response of record of the Senator's office to the Washington Post article (WP, **as it is given in that article**), and so adds no bias,
   + indicates factual concurrence between the WP report of passport evidence and the Senator's statements (correlating above sources), and, it
   + indicates that the current information at original reporting site suggests no ongoing controversy (WP site).

I believe it cannot be defended, that the article remain with redacted information on the spouse (which seems to reflect a bias, via her presentation in a particularly limited, and so unflattering way), and with only a description of part of the original WP article on the immigration matter, without the WP report of the Rubio office response, the correspondence between the two accounts, and the WP's follow-up representations (the lack of which, taken together, seems to reflect a bias to present the immigration matter in an incomplete, and so a possibly unflattering way).

Notably, while the response and timelines offered by the Rubio office are not factual merely by virtue of their being offered by that office, their being offered by the office in response (and reported as such by the WP) is a fact of the case, as are other pieces of information reported by the WP. Moreover, **the Rubio office response is given in the same WP article drawn upon for the short article version above, but mention of the response per se is omitted in the short article version** (an oversight corrected in the long); this partial reporting of the content of the WP article suggests bias in the original, shorter wiki article version.

Finally, I would note that I am not a political partisan in this, but as a wiki editor, try to address matters outside my subject area when there are facts that I would like to have to understand this situation. Here, based on what I read initially, I felt I was being left hanging, and with a somewhat negative view of spouse and Senator. I therefore looked to expand the story as full as reputable reporting would allow, with an aim toward balance. News report, and response to news report. Not only one side or the other.

Bottom line, I believe continued reversion to the shorter version, without critical review/editing does not accomplish anything, except to unnecessarily propagate a sense of bias in this article. Prof D. Meduban (talk) 19:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC) [Note, though omitted above, the longer revision also corrects the church affiliations of the Senator and family, based on a Florida newspaper account, and provides the correct name and location by visit to that church's web-site. Once again, the object is accuracy and neutrality.]

I doubt anyone will read all of this. Anyway, the back-story is that Meduban is edit-warring, repeating the same edit even though it has been rejected by multiple editors. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

This is your contention, just as it is mine that you consistently deleted edits, carte blanche and without any explanation, early in this process -- which I have noted from others is contrary to good wiki practice -- and that in doing so, set the stage for the matter that developed. I may have been technically wrong in the way that I handled the attempt to get attention and adjudication for this matter. But as the more senior, and more experienced wiki practitioner, I think you need to accept that your behaviour was not beyond reproach (though I have no idea how one might adjudicate that matter, here). And I stand by the fact that the general inability of a small set of contributors to this article, to consider change to a section which clearly seems to be to be biased -- this raises concerns over the impartiality of the current participants. I will look for remediation, however it is proper to do so; my trust in the impartiality of the few regulars at the article, that seem set on guarding the current text, has vanished.Meduban (talk) 17:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Have faith in the system, Nomo..., as I have, and please, here, don't side-step the matters of substance raised above for unhelpful accusation (edit-warring). I am offering explanation for my edit (expanding an article), but you are offering no explanation for its apparent bias in short form (and constant redaction). Please, (i) respond to the matters raised in the content, and (ii) let other editors do the same. Speak only for yourself, here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meduban (talk • contribs) 20:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The issue is supposed to be discussed at the talk page. Meduban/Prof_D has been edit warring rather than allowing the talk page discussion to take its course. Whether Meduban's concerns have any merit frankly is beside the point. Meduban needs consensus to make the desired changes, and so far the editor has made more reversions trying to insist on his or her changes than contributions to the talk discussion because he or she refuses, despite others' efforts, to recognize that the onus for obtaining consensus is on the person looking to make a change. Basically, Meduban thinks that because he claims to be "an academic" that we should simply accept his or her work product until something better comes along. Even if Meduban is a professor, that simply isn't the way it works. No one is special, and Meduban has to convince fellow editors to accept changes just as anyone else would have to. "Explaining" isn't enough. Meduban needs to persuade. So far, Nomo has pointed out OR concerns, and Meduban's only response has been to start this distraction of a discussion. -Rrius (talk) 22:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that this issue is about warring. The issue is autocratic unwillingness to change clearly flawed text, where the claim vis-a-vis flawed is citation- and fact-based. I disagree that when presenting information about a living person's life, that whether such a claim has merit is less important than wiki process concerns. I ask Rrius to un-ruffle from the mention that I am professionally trained to sit in judgment over texts, and to review sources, etc. The question is simply, should inaccurate and half- (and therefore seemingly biased) presentations about a living person stand because (i) we normally require consensus before changes (which is not the case in science editing, where factual challenges lead to immediate content removal), and because no one is willing to expeditiously and without bias, review the content arguments presented? My claims are straight-forward, and easily reviewed and verified. I suggest the section be deleted, rather than have a half story, mistake-ridden and biased as it is, remain in place. Meduban (talk) 23:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

This discussion probably shouldn't be away from the talk page at all yet, but if it we are at that point, the more rational place is WP:BLP/Noticeboard, especially given the original research claims. -Rrius (talk) 22:32, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Please clarify... what you see as the original research claims. I am aware of none, and do not see this claim clearly from Nomo... (There is no original research; as close as it might come, is the observation that the WP article makes the same passport date claims as the Senator's office; it is merely holding the two sources alongside each other, and saying, "no substantial difference".) As for where this should be adjudicated, I have no strong concern, except that it be a fair venue, one tasked to make decisions and that can focus on matters of substance, and that it be a relatively expeditious process. (Life is too short for conversations that don't make any progress.) Note, I was sent to the NPOVN site because the truncated version and the insistence that it remain appear to reflect a content bias -- or why not admit further citation-based information? As for the research claims and explanation of the abbreviation, I look forward to your response. Thank you. Meduban (talk) 23:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not my job to set out Nomo's OR concerns. As for venue, there was nothing unfair about the talk page; you just refuse to wait for consensus, preferring instead to edit war. By the "abbreviation", I suppose you mean "BLP", which (as you would discover if you clicked on it) stands for "biography of a living person". I will address your proposed edits (which do appear to violate, at the very least, WP:UNDUE, as originally pointed out to you) this evening or tonight at the article's talk page since you insist on addressing content-based arguments at me, even though I explicitly said I didn't plan to wade into the content (being more concerned with your original misapprehension about what version should remain live during discussion and your stubborn refusal to take advice and read up on WP guidelines on the topic). -Rrius (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I would ask the reviewers at the NPOVN location to see the long critique from Rrius, and my italicized responses, at:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Marco_Rubio (Section, "Problems with Meduban's version")

given the tone and content of that review, and of an earlier one (Section, "WP:OR, etc."), I remain convinced that there are biases at play that lead to the desire that this Section of the Rubio article not change. I would also ask further advice/decision, because Nomo... has subsequently suggested this matter be adjudicated at:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP/Noticeboard#Marco_Rubio    (Section, "Marco Rubio")

I don't know the best way forward on this, but am committed to seeing it through to proper adjudication, with more senior Wikipedia guidance.Meduban (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If any administrator reviewing this has history with this article and this subject matter, I would ask that we avoid apparent of conflict of interest and review it to a fully neutral party for remediation. Thank you.Meduban (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

2012 Burgas bus bombing Washington Post passage

Hello,

A section of the page 2012 Burgas bus bombing contains the following passage.

The Washington Post's editorial page on July 20 contained an editorial headline "Holding Iran accountable for terrorist attacks," in which The Washington Post said that Iran must suffer for its acts of global terrorism, and "The Security Council should review the abundant evidence of involvement by the Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah in this year’s attacks and punish both those groups as well as the Iranian government with sanctions." The newspaper wrote "Using the territory of countries across the world, working sometimes through proxies like Lebanon’s Hezbollah and sometimes with its own forces, Tehran has been intentionally targeting not just diplomats of enemies such as Israel and Saudi Arabia but also civilians."

An appropriate reference to The Washington Post is included.

A certain user decided to add a POV tag to the top of the article. You can see the tag by going to the top of the article. His reasoning in the summary box was - "Added POV tag. User:Activism1234 added a Washington Post opinion piece to the aftermath section."

Here is the diff.

I don't think that the tag should be there. I have mentioned this to the user who created the tag, but he has ignored my reasoning. I will list my reasoning below. Let me know what you guys think about this - whether the tag should be kept, removed, or whether the passage should be removed.

• What was added was not an opinion piece, as was claimed in the summary box. Editorials are written by the newspaper staff.
• I likely would not have added it if it was an opinion piece. However, The Washington Post is an internationally known media outlet that is read daily by thousands and thousands, if not millions, of people. Their view on the matter seemed to be noteworthy, and was relevant to the section on "aftermath," as they talked about what response should be taken in regards to the attack.
• The claim that it's POV pushing is silly. If I wanted to push a POV, presumably that Iran was responsible for the attack, I would've put this into the "perpetrator" section. Instead, i put it in the "aftermath" section since it dealt with a media outlet's take on what should be done in response which is read by thousands and thousands, if not millions, and appears to be noteworthy.
• The passage itself does not violate POV. The passage explicitly states it is an editorial. It is not a case of an opinion piece or editorial being inserted without mentioning what it is, and passing it off as a fact or the views of someone else.
• Adding a POV tag to an entire article solely because of one passage that doesn't violate NPOV is ludicrous.
• Tons of Wikipedia articles contain similar passages that explicitly state the media outlet and editorial, or if it's an opinion piece "X, writing for Y, wrote that..." Consider the article Public image of Barack Obama (just a random choice), which has The Washington Post mentioned 17 times, often as "X writing in The Washington Post" or "An opinion piece in the Washington Post..." As I noted above, this isn't even an opinion piece - this is an editorial. And it has been specified explicitly that this is an editorial.

It may very well be that the editor is unfamiliar with the rules. He has been on Wikipedia since 2010, but apparently didn't know he violated 1RR and 3RR, and still was confused after an administrator told him that he did in fact violate these policies. Still, the only way I can see a breakthrough is if people here agree that the tag should be removed and there is nothing wrong here.

Feel free to ask any questions.

Thanks. --Activism1234 01:58, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that inserting mention of the Post editorial is inappropriate. I would think that an "Aftermath" section would mostly describe what people have done, and especially what the people involved have done. Reporting on what someone else is reporting seems... disconnected. It also seems like an attempt to push a POV by "wrapping" in in a citable quote. (Please note that I am not accusing you of this; I'm just letting you know what it seems like to me, as an outside, uninvolved reader.) —Steve Summit (talk) 04:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of creating a section on "Proposed suggestions," since many media outlets have penned editorials on this and former officials have spoken out on what should be done in the aftermath. Would you find it acceptable in that case? --Activism1234 22:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Circumcision and law

In article Circumcision and law, editor Sugarcube73 (talk · contribs) introduced a new section for Canada. It included:

According to the College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia (2009): "To date, the legality of infant male circumcision has not been tested in the Courts. It is thus assumed to be legal if it is performed competently, in the child’s best interest, and after valid consent has been obtained."

and we both agree this is relevant for this new section.

Sugarcube would also like to add the following two items, which I do not believe adhere to WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE in particular:

1. Bouclin (2005) argues that the circumcision of children violates the child's rights to security of his person under Article 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and furthermore, parents are not empowered to grant surrogate consent in the absence of therapeutic necessity.
2. In 2011, the British Columbia Court of Appeal unanimously upheld the conviction for criminal negligence causing bodily harm and reinstated convictions for aggravated assault and assault using a weapon of a man identified as "D. J. W." who attempted to perform a non-therapeutic circumcision on his son in his kitchen for religious reasons. The court remanded the case to the trial court for resentencing, however, Mr. D. J. W. has been given leave to appeal his conviction to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Regarding #1, I do not believe the opinion of Bouclin is warranted in a high-level section discussing circumcision and law in Canada. From Suzanne Bouclin's resume, this seems to be the only paper she's ever published on this topic, and according to Google Scholar it's rarely cited, and when it is, it's often in an opinion piece in opposition to it. This paper doesn't seem nearly notable enough to line up against statement of the CPSBC. The CPSBC is established by the BC provincial legislature as the licensing and regulatory body for all physicians and surgeons in the province. The notability and weight of Bouclin isn't even in the same ballpark, and in my evaluation, it is undue weight to include Bouclin, and not any of the many dozens of other equally notable commentators on this subject.

Regarding #2, the DJW case, Sugarcube said in our discussion on Sugarcube73's talk page, "The BC Court of Appeal decision is important because it is being appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada. It would end up setting a policy for the whole nation of Canada" and I agree with Sugarcube73 that if this were true, it would be warranted to mention here. But (as I wrote on Sugarcube73's talk page),

I have found absolutely no reliable sources to support this claim. Unlike the Cologne ruling in Germany, the DJW case is barely getting any notice in the press at all. I found just a handful of mentions about the Crown's change of mind to take up the appeal. Here they are:

• this short article in the tiny Times Columnist
• this article from Postmedia News

That happened back in April. Nothing in the news since. Don't you think if this case really had the notability to set a country-wide precedent regarding circumcision, there'd be more about it? And where in either story is there support for "It would end up setting a policy for the whole nation of Canada"?

The nature of the actions of DJW (read the stories above to see what I mean) have nothing to do with what reliable sources mean when they discuss "circumcision". What is happening in the DJW case has nothing to do with "circumcision" as discussed in reliable sources and it's absolutely irrelevant to the Circumcision and law article.

Input please. Zad68 18:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

It may be relevant to mention that I believe Sugarcube has been having a history of POV-pushing or tendentious editing. I outlined this here on Sugarcube's Talk page in the section "Please stop POV edits regarding circumcision"--please use this link to access it as Sugarcube has since deleted the content of that section. Zad68 18:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The Canadian DJW case and the controversial Cologne Germany case both involve the conflict between a parent's right to practice religion and the child's right to physical integrity and protection of human rights. For this reason, the DJW case is very important. I don't know why the Canadian media has not picked up on this.

Sugarcube73 (talk) 18:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Canada, unlike the United States, has one criminal law code that covers the whole nation. A decision about the criminality or lack thereof of the DJW circumcision case would impact the whole nation.

Sugarcube73 (talk) 18:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I've been involved in the Cologne court ruling Wikipedia article edits. As for this Canada one (#2), I will honestly say I never heard it either. It doesn't mean much though, I'm sure there's a lot of news I haven't heard. And yes, it does seem noteworthy at first glance. However, it appears that the court ruling is a case where the father performed a non-theraputic circumcision himself, and was charged with a crime. It doesn't appear that circumcision was charged as a crime, and is unlikely to create a precedent. My recommendation is to wait and see what happens with this court case. If it does actually somehow end up criminalizing circumcision, or even ends up saying that circumcision should be encouraged, then it'd be notable to include. As for #1, I haven't checked out the source, but if what Zad68 is true about the author, then it would also appear as WP:UNDUE. As a side note, it's possible that Sugarcube is engaging in good-faith edits and what he honestly fells. In my personal opinion, I certainly wouldn't include the second one, and wouldn't mention the first if what Zad68 is true. Thanks. --Activism1234 22:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

To me, this dispute looks like Sugarcube73 is trying to use Wikipedia to change the political situation, bringing non-notable cases to the fore in opposition to mainstream views. I don't think NPOV is being respected. I support any edit which removes minor cases "the Canadian media has not picked up on". Binksternet (talk) 04:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Al-Ahbash

Al-Ahbash (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) An editor is insisting that this article does not conform to NPOV and is insisting on POV tags remaining on the article, though discussion stopped sometime in may. He posts walls of text on the talk page making discussion nigh on impossible. Would a few editors please look over the article to see if it is in fact not neutral. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you list some of the key points of the arguments he raises about POV (if he makes any?)? That would help a lot. Reading the article itself, I'm not an expert and never heard of this group, but the wording and text seem to be fine with me. If his/her issue is mainly that X isn't mentioned, then he/she should go ahead and mention it with a proper, reliable referenced and be bold. Otherwise, the actual wording/text doesn't appear to have POV issue. But if just a few of his main arguments could be raised here (if he makes any arguments, I've seen people just add tags with reasons such as "Hahaha if you don't understand why it's not NPOV you must be new!"), then that would probably help alert us to those specific issues and review it. --Activism1234 18:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Well he hates them with a passion which I imagine would be one of the reasons :o) He insists on calling them a "sect" in violation of WP:WTA. Another thing he demands is "Al'Ahbash beliefs are an interpretation of Islam combining elements of Sunni and Shi'a theology withSufism." should be and must be inserted back to this version of Ahbash page" (bolding his) But that is already in the article, first line of [8] this section. I have no idea what he wants, look at the talk page and see for yourself. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

And now he accuses me of OWN issues[9] given he had his two sockpuppets kept that article at a stub for years makes that statement ironic. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If he can provide reliable sources that refer to them as a sect, then I think he'd be allowed to briefly mention somewhere that "According to X, Al Ahbash is a sect." The sources should also be notable, not some random author who has only written a page on the topic. Otherwise, there's no legitimate reason to add that in. And the fact that the page doesn't have it doesn't mean it violates NPOV. As for your second point, let me get it straight - he wants to insert that sentence into the article in another place, despite it being in a paragraph already about their religion?

If you feel that there is a serious issue going on here, especially since he had sockpuppets, I highly suggest that you take it to an Arbitration Enforcement page or edit warring or incidents page, and file a report against him. Please be aware of the WP:BOOMERANG effect if it would apply to you. --Activism1234 21:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

List of oldest universities

At List of oldest universities in continuous operation, only European universities are included. This is due to, according to users on the talk page, a number of sources that say that the "university" was a uniquely European institution, and that Muslim institutions are "madrassas", not universities. It is true that eminently reliable sources put forward such a view. There are however other reliable sources that do not hold the same view. A number of users are insisting that the page cannot include what those reliable sources say. This has come up here before, here (a discussion that was completely disregarded here) and here. Sources brought for the inclusion of al-Azhar and al-Karaouine are as follows:

• Aslan, Ednan, ed. (2009), Islamic Education in Europe, Wiener islamisch-religionspädagogische Studien, vol. 1, Böhlau Verlag Wien, pp. 220–221, ISBN 9783205783107, The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
• Goldstone, Jack (2008), Why Europe?: the rise of the West in world history, 1500-1850, McGraw-Hill Higher Education, p. 140, ISBN 9780072848014, Islamic scientists and scholars developed the first universities as centers for scholarship in North Africa and Egypt; the universities of Al-Azhar in Cairo, founded in AD 988, and of Al-Karaouine in Fez (Morocco), founded in 859, are the world's oldest ongoing universities
• Janin, Hunt (2006). The Pursuit of Learning in the Islamic World, 610-2003. McFarland. p. 67. ISBN 9780786429042. Situated in Cairo and formerly also located with the great al-Azhar Mosque, this is the oldest and still the most important Islamic university in the world. Al-Azhar University has taught Islamic law, theology, and Arabic for more than 1,000 years. The first recorded seminar was held in 975, when chief justice Abu El-Hassan sat in the courtyard of the university and, reading from a book on jurisprudence written by his father, instructed students in the intricacies of Shiite law.
• Behrens-Abouseif, Doris (1992). Islamic Architecture in Cairo (2nd ed.). Brill. p. 58. ISBN 978-90-04-09626-4. The first prayers were held in the mosque in 972, and in 989 it acquired the status of a college with the appointment of thirty-five scholars to teach the Isma'ili Shi'a theology to which the Fatimids adhered.

I have argued that the list should include these universities and also include the fact that other scholars do not consider them to have been founded as universities. That has not proven satisfactory to other editors on the talk page. Should the list include universities that reliable sources report as being the oldest continuously run universities in the world if they are not European? nableezy - 17:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

While there are some sources that consider Karaouine the oldest functioning university, they are beneath the caliber and scope of those sources that consider the medieval Christian university to be a European innovation (see here [10]), thus excluding Karaouine from the list. Unfortunately, the problem with the table is that if we were to include Karaouine in the table we would be giving equal weight to the minority viewpoint. On the other hand I am open to some kind of creative solution that includes Karaouine and Al-Azhar somewhere in the article, just not the table. I also note that so far users are aligning 6-1 in favor of the current version of the article. Lastly, I note that Nableezy's interest ends at including only Islamic institutions founded before 1088 (the date of founding of the University of Bologna, seemingly completely uninterested in any Islamic institutions founded after that date. Athenean (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Your claim about my interests are both untrue and irrelevant. Kindly refrain from writing bogus assertions of no relevance. Thank you for your cooperation. nableezy - 21:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't seem very obvious that the sources quoted in the link are of higher caliber and scope than those quoted by the OP here, and it wouldn't really matter anyway, so long as the sources are not WP:FRINGE and the authors are qualified to have an opinion. The relevant policy is WP:YESPOV.

BTW, here is an additional source: [11]. Formerip (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The sources in the link I provide are in-depth, scholarly sources that delve into the history and nature of the university. The sources provided by Nableezy and yourself are not. So, yes, there is definitely a difference in caliber. Athenean (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm not going to compare them in detail, so lets just say yours trump mine. However, mine is written by a professor of Education in chapter that deals with the history of the university in a book from an academic publisher. I'd say that's enough to show that there is a difference of opinion about this between experts in the relevant field. Which is not to say that my guy might not have it wrong and yours right. Formerip (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The definition of a university in the List of oldest universities in continuous operation follows the main article university. This defines the Wikipedia:Scope for the list. There is consensus at both the main article and the list among the users about this definition. The two institutions cited by Nableezy were actually madrasas, Muslim mosque schools, and quality sources careful about the terminology also call and discuss them this way. What Nableezy is basically asking is to overthrow a consensus which is based on specialist scholarship just in order to include these two madrasas in the university list (ignoring that for madrasas already exists a List of the oldest madrasahs in continuous operation). This would creates unsurmountable problems with, inter alia, WP:Weight. There is a ton of high quality scholarly material by internationaly recognized historian of the history of the university who go to great pains and into great detail why the university was a unique creation of Christian Europe and why Muslim madrasas were historically and organizationally a very distinct institution. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Several "quality sources" have been provided that specifically say that these two institutions were founded as universities. I am seeking uninvolved comment on whether or not that significant viewpoint should be included as per WP:NPOV. nableezy - 00:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

There is increasing mention of the Islamic institutions as universities and I would like to see this view mentioned. However, I think it is still a minority scientific view so in the lede and other short summaries we can treat Bologna et al as first. Today, a madrasa is a very different thing from a university, in Muslim-majority countries too, but in the early middle ages, it wasn't. The Christian institutions were religious schools too, and perhaps were copied from the Islamic pattern. Timbuktu deserves special mention. There were even earlier Buddhist institutions as I recall. It makes for a messier list, but still worth doing. Itsmejudith (talk) 05:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Itsmejudith that the medieval institutions of learning were more than modern madrassas, but that it's still a minority view that they qualify as "universtities". Another point is that they ceased to function as "university-like" institutions and deterioriated into religious schools while Western institutions blossomed from religious schools into modern universities. While there may some organizational continuity, there really is no university-like continuity between modern Muslim universities founded on the basis of modern madrassas and their medieval predecessors. It would be very deceptive to imply such continuity, and to deny that the primary model for modern Muslim universities is the Western university, not the madrassa, either modern or medieval. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, just for your info, there exists already an overview article for all these other institutions of higher learning: Ancient higher-learning institutions. Can't agree about your opinion of an increasing mentioning. In my survey of expert views and entries in renowned encyclopedia I found the standard position that university were uniquely European in origin to be just as vigorously and elaborately articulated as ever. Most of the sources which happen to call madrasas also "universities" do only so because university has obviously long become the general term for any institution of higher learning in the English language. Their everyday usage of the term is fine, but makes them irrelevant for an encyclopedic definition. The few that bring somewhat more to the table, like Aslan above, still lack any meaningful discussion or reasoning for their opinion; they just assert it.

Dominus Vobisdu, modern madrasas became 'less' than medieval ones in the moment the introduction of the Western model of the university relegated them to a secondary position in the hierachy of learning institutions. Today, as far as I can tell, madrasa might be better addressed as schools. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Itsmejudith: Your comparison of madrassas with medieval universities misses the point that medieval universities emerged as autonomoous organizations of teachers or students, not as foundations of religious institutions. Madrassas are more like early medieval cathedral or monastic schools than like later medieval universities. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 21:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Previous discussions on the NPOVN

I want to point out that this subject was discussed two times before on the NPOVN. These previous discussions can be consulted on:

• WP:NPOVN/Archive 29 (Dec.2011)
• WP:NPOVN/Archive 31 (Jan.-Feb. 2012)

As anyone can easily see, on both discussions most comments were in favor of a "weighting" of the article, but no decision was taken... I hope that it will not be the case (again) this time.

Omar-toons (talk) 06:41, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Draft text?

Basing on the two previous discussions, I reiterate my proposals for a solution respecting the WP:NPOV policy, since it clearly appears that there is no consensus about which is the oldest university in the world and the European-Christian medieval concept.

My proposals:

• on the article University of Al-Karaouine:
  • The Al Karaouine institution is considered by the UNESCO^(reference), and many historians^(references) as the oldest continuously operating academic degree-granting university in the world. Some historians as al-Jaznai^(reference) and Lévi-Provençal^(reference) consider that it can not be considered as a "University" before the 13th century, when the teaching became general and it started to form philosophers and thinker, including several non-Muslims. However, these views are contested by many other historians who consider that medieval universities in the Islamic world and medieval European universities followed very different historical trajectories until the former were expanded to the later in modern times^(reference), and the certificate delivered in non-European universities deviated in concept and procedure from the medieval doctorate out of which modern university degrees evolved^(reference).
• on the article University of Bologna:
  • The university received a charter from Frederick I Barbarossa in 1158, but in the 19th century, a committee of historians led by Giosuè Carducci traced the founding of the University back to 1088, which would make it the oldest university in the world^(references). This claim is, however, contested by some historians who consider that the oldest continuously operating university in the world is the University of Al-Karaouine in Fez, Morocco^(references).
• on the lists of universities:
  • Adding non-European universities to the List of oldest universities in continuous operation and copying the two paragraphs above for both universities as a note ;
  • Creating a second list: the List of oldest European universities in continuous operation, with a note about the fact that European universities are considered by some historians as the oldest of the world, not only in Europe ;
  • Renaming the article List of oldest madrasahs in continuous operation (that was created as a WP:POVFORK in order to eliminate non-European universities from the previous list) as List of oldest universities in continuous operation in the Muslim world, with a note about the fact that the list is contested by the ones who consider that non-European high-degree learning institutions weren't universities.

Omar-toons (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

What you are basically proposing is to change the entire definition of the university in order to somehow squeeze in the madrasa as "the oldest universities" in a few articles. If this view is to be accepted by the majoritiy of users, we would have to change not only the lead of these three article, far from it, we would have to change hundreds of articles, beginning with adding the category [[Category:University]] and the infobox university to countless Islamic mosques schools which aren't in fact universities at all.

The point you still do not quite comprehend is that while both university and madrasa can be fully regarded as institutions of higher learning, each has to be judged on its own terms and that a medieval madrasa was never a university (or the other way round). It does not help either that you have been edit-warring (you still do) over multiple Wikipedias for months now in order to enforce your view, ironically even in those versions where you don't even have a minimum command of the language.

To provide some information to users still unfamiliar with the history of the university and the madrasa, I will list here reputable sources from encyclopedia, dictionaries on the Middle Ages and internationally renowned historians of the university. Note that these are nearly all written by individual experts in the field or published in leading publications; they plainly make clear that the standard view is that

1. the university was the institution of higher learning unique to the Christian Middle Ages (medieval university)
2. that the first universities were located in Western Europe
3. that there were no universities in the Muslim world before the onset of modernity (19th-20th centuries)
4. the madrasa was a higher school of Islamic law, with other subjects onl ancillary to it, and as such a very different institution from the university
5. that the Muslim madrasa differed in many important structural, conceptual and cultural ways from the Christian university
6. that the labelling of Al-Karaouine or Al-Azhar as "first universities" is unjustified and misleading for the above reasons

Reputable sources and definitions from encyclopedias, dictionaries on the Middle Ages and internationally renowned historians of the university

Below expert views. The point is that these scholars and sources really give arguments for the position they take. This is in stark contrast to the mostly low quality "sources" of proponents of the madrasa = university claim where the simple use or mention of the word "university" is considered a proof of the madrasa having been a university at the time of its founding, even though the term can denote in English everyday usage any type of institution of higher learning. The medieval Christian origin of the university Walter Rüegg The university is a European institution; indeed, it is the European institution par excellence. There are various reasons for this assertion. As a community of teachers and taught, accorded certain rights, such as administrative autonomy and the determination and realization of curricula (courses of study) and of the objectives of research as well as the award of publicly recognized degrees, it is a creation of medieval Europe, which was the Europe of papal Christianity... No other European institution has spread over the entire world in the way in which the traditional form of the European university has done. The degrees awarded by European universities – the bachelor's degree, the licentiate, the master's degree, and the doctorate – have been adopted in the most diverse societies throughout the world. The four medieval faculties of artes – variously called philosophy, letters, arts, arts and sciences, and humanities –, law, medicine, and theology have survived and have been supplemented by numerous disciplines, particularly the social sciences and technological studies, but they remain none the less at the heart of universities throughout the world. Even the name of the universitas, which in the Middle Ages was applied to corporate bodies of the most diverse sorts and was accordingly applied to the corporate organization of teachers and students, has in the course of centuries been given a more particular focus: the university, as a universitas litterarum, has since the eighteenth century been the intellectual institution which cultivates and transmits the entire corpus of methodically studied intellectual disciplines. (Rüegg, Walter: "Foreword. The University as a European Institution", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-521-36105-2, pp. XIX–XX) Jacques Verger No one today would dispute the fact that universities, in the sense in which the term is now generally understood, were a creation of the Middle Ages, appearing for the first time between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. It is no doubt true that other civilizations, prior to, or wholly alien to, the medieval West, such as the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Islam, or China, were familiar with forms of higher education which a number of historians, for the sake of convenience, have sometimes described as universities.Yet a closer look makes it plain that the institutional reality was altogether different and, no matter what has been said on the subject, there is no real link such as would justify us in associating them with medieval universities in the West. Until there is definite proof to the contrary, these latter must be regarded as the sole source of the model which gradually spread through the whole of Europe and then to the whole world. We are therefore concerned with what is indisputably an original institution, which can only be defined in terms of a historical analysis of its emergence and its mode of operation in concrete circumstances. (Verger, Jacques: "Patterns", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0-521-54113-8, pp. 35–76 (35)) The Heritage of European Universities In many respects, if there is any institution that Europe can most justifiably claim as one of its inventions, it is the university. As proof thereof and without wishing here to recount the whole history of the birth of universities, it will suffice to describe briefly how the invention of universities took the form of a polycentric process of specifically European origin. (Sanz, Nuria; Bergan, Sjur (eds.): The Heritage of European Universities, Council of Europe, 2002, ISBN 978-92-871-4960-2, p. 119) Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages The university came into being in the 12th century. On a general level, it was certainly a manifestation of the great transformations that characterised European society during the centuries following the year 1000. The debate begins when we seek to fix its origin more precisely: was the university an evolution of the 11th- and 12th-c. cathedral schools or, on the contrary, of lay municipal schools (of grammar, notariate, law)? Did it have antecedents in the higher legal schools of late Roman Antiquity? Does it show analogies with the teaching institutions of the Islamic world? In reality, the university was an original creation of the central centuries of the Middle Ages, both from the point of view of its organisation and from the cultural point of view, notwithstanding what it owed, in the latter aspect, to the cathedral schools (especially for philosophy and theology). (Vauchez, André; Dobson, Richard Barrie; Lapidge, Michael (eds.): Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, Vol. 1, Routledge, 2000, ISBN 978-1-57958-282-1, p. 1484 (entry "university")) The first universities Ferruolo, Stephen C. Given how the university came to be defined, the decisive step in its development came when masters and scholars of various subjects and with diverse professional objectives first joined together to form a single guild or community. It was in Paris that the earliest such corporation was formed. Although in other respects the city's schools developed more slowly than those of Bologna, Paris can, in this definitive sense, be regarded as the location of the first university. (Ferruolo, Stephen C.: The Origins of the University: The Schools of Paris and Their Critics, 1100–1215, Stanford University Press, 1985, ISBN 978-0-8047-1266-8, p. 5) Encyclopædia Britannica The modern university evolved from the medieval schools known as studia generalia; they were generally recognized places of study open to students from all parts of Europe. The earliest studia arose out of efforts to educate clerks and monks beyond the level of the cathedral and monastic schools...The earliest Western institution that can be called a university was a famous medical school that arose at Salerno, Italy, in the 9th century and drew students from all over Europe. It remained merely a medical school, however. The first true university was founded at Bologna late in the 11th century. It became a widely respected school of canon and civil law. The first university to arise in northern Europe was the University of Paris, founded between 1150 and 1170. (Encyclopædia Britannica: "University", 2012, retrieved 26 July 2012) Catholic Encyclopedia Although the name university is sometimes given to the celebrated schools of Athens and Alexandria, it is generally held that the universities first arose in the Middle Ages. (Pace, Edward: "Universities", The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 15, Robert Appleton Company, New York, 1912, retrieved 27 July 2012) Brill's New Pauly The first universities appeared around 1200. They traced their own origins to ancient roots. Paris, for instance, in the 13th cent. portrayed itself as founded by Charlemagne and hence as the final station of a translatio studii founded in Athens and transmitted via Rome...In reality, the mediaeval universities as institutions enjoyed no form of continuity with the public academies of Late Antiquity...The early universities as institutions were not clearly legally defined, and had no consistent, comprehensive bureaucratic structure. They emerged from collective confraternities at a place of study. Teachers and students would join together in corporate groups (universitas magistrorum et scholarium, as at Paris before 1200, and at Oxford and Montpellier before 1220) or, indeed, students alone (universitas scholarium, as at Bologna before 1200). Sometimes universities resulted from secessions from these first foundations (as at Cambridge from the University of Oxford before 1220, at Padua from the University of Bologna in 1222). Retrospectively at least, however, the foundation and its legal privileges (protection, autonomy, financial basis, universal licence to teach – licentia ubique docendi) had to be confirmed by a universal power, either by the pope or, more rarely, the emperor. Only then did an institution attain the true status of a studium generale. (Brill's New Pauly: "University", Brill, 2012) Definitions of the Islamic madrasa Encyclopaedia of Islam Madrasa, in modern usage, the name of an institution of learning where the Islamic sciences are taught, i.e. a college for higher studies, as opposed to an elementary school of traditional type (kuttab); in mediaeval usage, essentially a college of law in which the other Islamic sciences, including literary and philosophical ones, were ancillary subjects only. (Pedersen, J.; Rahman, Munibur; Hillenbrand, R.: "Madrasa", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd edition, Brill, 2010) The Encyclopaedia of Islam has an entry on the "madrasa", in which the mosque schools of Al-Karaouine and Al-Azhar are discussed, but notably lacks one for a Muslim "university" (cf. Pedersen, J.; Rahman, Munibur; Hillenbrand, R.: "Madrasa", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd edition, Brill, 2010) Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia A madrasa is a college of Islamic law. The madrasa was an educational institution in which Islamic law (fiqh) was taught according to one or more Sunni rites: Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanafi, or Hanbali. It was supported by an endowment or charitable trust (waqf) that provided for at least one chair for one professor of law, income for other faculty or staff, scholarships for students, and funds for the maintenance of the building. Madrasas contained lodgings for the professor and some of his students. Subjects other than law were frequently taught in madrasas, and even Sufi seances were held in them, but there could be no madrasa without law as technically the major subject. (Meri, Josef W. (ed.): Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, A–K, Routledge, ISBN 978-0-415-96691-7, p. 457 (entry "madrasa")) The difference(s) between the university and the madrasa George Makdisi In studying an institution which is foreign and remote in point of time, as is the case of the medieval madrasa, one runs the double risk of attributing to it characteristics borrowed from one's own institutions and one's own times. Thus gratuitous transfers may be made from one culture to the other, and the time factor may be ignored or dismissed as being without significance. One cannot therefore be too careful in attempting a comparative study of these two institutions: the madrasa and the university. But in spite of the pitfalls inherent in such a study, albeit sketchy, the results which may be obtained are well worth the risks involved. In any case, one cannot avoid making comparisons when certain unwarranted statements have already been made and seem to be currently accepted without question. The most unwarranted of these statements is the one which makes of the "madrasa" a "university". (Makdisi, George: "Madrasa and University in the Middle Ages", Studia Islamica, No. 32 (1970), pp. 255–264 (255f.)) In the following remarks, it will be seen that the madrasa and the university were the result of two different sets of social, political and religious factors. When speaking of these two institutions, unless otherwise stated, my remarks will refer, for the most part, to the eleventh century in Baghdad and the thirteenth century in Paris. These are the centuries given for the development of these institutions in the Muslim East and the Christian West, respectively. Universitas, the term which eventually came to be used synonymously with studium generale, and to designate what we now know as the university, originally meant nothing more than a community, guild or corporation. It was a corporation of masters, or students, or both...The madrasa, unlike the university, was a building, not a community. It was one among many such institutions in the same city, each independent of the other, each with its own endowment. In the West the scholars of the University were ecclesiastics, people of the Church...Now, whereas the popes were the ultimate guardians of orthodoxy in the Christian hierarchy, in Islam which lacked a religious hierarchy, it was the ulama, or religious scholars, themselves, who ultimately had to see to the preservation and propagation of orthodox truth. Centralization in medieval European cities, and decentralization in those of medieval Islam–such was the situation in the institutions of learning on both sides of the Mediterranean. Paris was a city with one university; Baghdad, on the other hand, had a great number of institutions of learning. In Paris organized faculties were brought into a single system resting on a hierarchical basis; in Baghdad, one leading scholar (and others of subordinate positions) taught in one of the many institutions, each institution independent of the other, with its own charter, and its own endowment. Here we have another essential difference between the two institutional systems: hierarchical and organized in medieval Europe, individualistic and personalized in medieval Islam. Perhaps the most fundamental difference between the two systems is embodied in their systems of certification; namely, in medieval Europe, the licentia docendi, or license to teach; in medieval Islam, the ijaza, or authorization. In Europe, the license to teach was a license to teach a certain field of knowledge. It was conferred by the licensed masters acting as a corporation, with the consent of a Church authority, in Paris, by the Chancellor of the Cathedral Chapter...Certification in the Muslim East remained a personal matter between the master and the student. The master conferred it on an individual for a particular work, or works. Before the advent of the licentia docendi, the conditions for teaching were much the same in medieval Europe and in the Muslim world...But Europe developed the license to teach, and with its development came the parting of the ways between East and West in institutionalized higher education...The license to teach in medieval Europe brought with it fixed curricula, fixed periods of study and examinations. Whereas the ijaza in Islam kept things on a more fluid, a more individualistic and personal basis. There is another fundamental reason why the university, as it developed in Europe, did not develop in the Muslim East. This reason is to be found in the very nature of the corporation. Corporations, as a form of social organization, had already developed in Europe. Their legal basis was to be found in Roman Law which recognized juristic persons. Islamic law, on the other hand, does not recognize juristic persons. (Makdisi, George: "Madrasa and University in the Middle Ages", Studia Islamica, No. 32 (1970), pp. 256–264) Thus the university, as a form of social organization, was peculiar to medieval Europe. Later, it was exported to all parts of the world, including the Muslim East; and it has remained with us down to the present day. But back in the Middle Ages, outside of Europe, there was nothing anything quite like it anywhere. (Makdisi, George: "Madrasa and University in the Middle Ages", Studia Islamica, No. 32 (1970), pp. 255–264 (264)) Madrasas had no institutional structure, no curriculum, no regular examination and no system of degrees Berkey, Jonathan P. Over the course of the Islamic Middle Period (1000–1500), these madrasas became typical features of the urban landscapes of Near Eastern and central and southwest Asian cities, and their proliferation was one of the seminal features of medieval Islamic religious life. Even so, the institutions themselves seem to have had little or no impact on the character or the processes of the transmission of knowledge. For all that the transmission of knowledge might take place within an institution labeled a madrasa, and be supported by the endowments attached to that institution, the principles that guided the activities of teachers and students, and the standards by which they were judged, remained personal and informal, as they had been in earlier centuries before the appearance of the madrasa. No medieval madrasa had anything approaching a set curriculum, and no system of degrees was ever established. Indeed, medieval Muslims themselves seem to have been remarkably uninterested in where an individual studied. The only thing that mattered was with whom one had studied, a qualification certified not by an institutional degree but by a personal license (ijaza) issued by a teacher to his pupil. Whether lessons took place in a new madrasa, or in an older mosque, or for that matter in someone's living room, was a matter of supreme indifference. No institutional structure, no curriculum, no regular examinations, nothing approaching a formal hierachy of degrees: the system of transmitting knowledge, such as it was, remained throughout the medieval period fundamentally personal and informal, and consequently, in many ways, flexible and inclusive. (Berkey, Jonathan P.: Madrasas Medieval and Modern: Politics, Education, and the Problem of Muslim Identity, in Hefner, Robert W.; Qasim Zaman, Muhammad (eds.): Schooling Islam: The Culture and Politics of Modern Muslim Education, Princeton Studies in Muslim Politics, Princeton University Press, 2007, ISBN 978-0-691-12933-4, p. 43) Al-Karaouine (and Al-Azhar) were not the first madrasas, therefore they cannot have been the first universities, even if a madrasa is considered a university. Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia The first madrasas appeared during the late tenth century in the eastern Islamic world. By the early eleventh century, there were several in Nishapur. The Seljuk vizier Nizam al-Mulk (1064–1092) greatly promoted their spread. He founded the renowned Nizamiyya Madrasa in Baghdad in 1065 for the Shafi'is and proceeded to establish similar colleges in other cities of the Seljuk Empire. His primary objective was to use this institution to strengthen Sunnism against Shi'ism and to gain influence over the religious class. Madrasas rapidly spread from east to west. (Meri, Josef W. (ed.): Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, A–K, Routledge, ISBN 978-0-415-96691-7, p. 457 (entry "madrasa")) Berkey, Jonathan P. Before the emergence of the madrasa as a distinctive educational forum in the eleventh century, the transmission of Muslim knowledge was not tied to any institutional structure. Most education probably took place in mosques, as students gathered with respected scholars in informal teaching circles to recite texts and discuss the issues which they addressed...Beginning in the eleventh century, Muslims began to establish institutions specifically created and endowed to support the transmission of religious knowledge, and over the ensuing centuries the madrasa and its cognate institutions became one of the most common features of premodern cities...A madrasa established in Baghdad in the late eleventh century by Nizam al-Mulk, the Persian vizier to the Saljuq sultans, is often today mentioned as the archetypal madrasa, although in fact the institution probably developed earlier in Khurasan in eastern Iran. (Berkey, Jonathan P.: Madrasas Medieval and Modern: Politics, Education, and the Problem of Muslim Identity, in Hefner, Robert W.; Qasim Zaman, Muhammad (eds.): Schooling Islam: The Culture and Politics of Modern Muslim Education, Princeton Studies in Muslim Politics, Princeton University Press, 2007, ISBN 978-0-691-12933-4, p. 42f.) Al-Azhar cannot be considered the oldest university in the world and there is not even institutional continuity between medieval and modern madrasas (hence Al-Azhar cannot even be regarded as a continuously operating institution) One recent development in the Islamic world which has caught the eye of Western reporters is the increasing prominence of institutions of religious education, usually known as madrasas...It is not clear that these madrasas represent a uniform type. The word madrasa in Arabic simply means "school," and can be applied to a wide variety of institutions. The madrasas at issue here are schools...Not infrequently, these institutions are caricatured as "medieval." And indeed, the madrasa was one of the central institutions of religious life in much of the medieval Islamic world. Strictly speaking, there is no question of any direct institutional continuity between any of the contemporary madrasas and those which figured so prominently in medieval life. The great al-Azhar mosque in Cairo is sometimes spoken of as the oldest university in the world; unfortunately, for all its sentimental appeal, the assertion has little historical meaning. (Berkey, Jonathan P.: Madrasas Medieval and Modern: Politics, Education, and the Problem of Muslim Identity, in Hefner, Robert W.; Qasim Zaman, Muhammad (eds.): Schooling Islam: The Culture and Politics of Modern Muslim Education, Princeton Studies in Muslim Politics, Princeton University Press, 2007, ISBN 978-0-691-12933-4, p. 40)

Reliable sources showing Al-Karaouine and Al-Azhar to be madrasas, not universities

These sources are reliable, albeit not expert sources, which show that Al-Karaouine and Al-Azhar were actually founded and run as a madrasa, not a university. Al-Karaouine (and Al-Azhar) was founded or run as a madrasa, mosque school or mosque, not a university. Petersen, Andrew: Dictionary of Islamic Architecture, Routledge, 1996, ISBN 978-0-415-06084-4, p. 87 (entry "Fez"): The Qarawiyyin Mosque, founded in 859, is the most famous mosque of Morocco and attracted continuous investment by Muslim rulers. Lulat, Y. G.-M.: A History Of African Higher Education From Antiquity To The Present: A Critical Synthesis Studies in Higher Education, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, ISBN 978-0-313-32061-3, p. 70: As for the nature of its curriculum, it was typical of other major madrasahs such as al-Azhar and al-Qarawiyyin, though many of the texts used at the institution came from Muslim Spain...Al-Qarawiyyin began its life as a small mosque constructed in 859 C.E. by means of an endowment bequeathed by a wealthy woman of much piety, Fatima bint Muhammed al-Fahri. Meri, Josef W. (ed.): Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, A–K, Routledge, ISBN 978-0-415-96691-7, p. 257 (entry "Fez"): Fez then became the Almoravids' main military base in Morocco. It is also in this period that the Qarawiyyin mosque began to acquire increasing significance as a center of learning. Many of the 'ulama' representatives of Western Malikism were trained in this center. Al-Karaouine was transformed only in modern times into a university. Shillington, Kevin: Encyclopedia of African History, Vol. 2, Fitzroy Dearborn, 2005, ISBN 978-1-57958-245-6, p. 1025: Higher education has always been an integral part of Morocco, going back to the ninth century when the Karaouine Mosque was established. The mosque school, known today as Al Qayrawaniyan University, became part of the state university system in 1947. Al-Karaouine is the oldest madrasah in the world, not the oldest university. Fergusson, James: Taliban: The Unknown Enemy, Da Capo Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-306-82033-5, p. 69: The oldest madrasah in the world, the Jami'at al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco, has been operating benignly – and continuously – since it was established in 859; Belhachmi, Zakia: "Gender, Education, and Feminist Knowledge in al-Maghrib (North Africa) – 1950–70", Journal of Middle Eastern and North African Intellectual and Cultural Studies, Vol. 2–3, 2003, pp. 55–82 (65): The Adjustments of Original Institutions of the Higher Learning: the Madrasah. Significantly, the institutional adjustments of the madrasahs affected both the structure and the content of these institutions. In terms of structure, the adjustments were twofold: the reorganization of the available original madaris, and the creation of new institutions. This resulted in two different types of Islamic teaching institutions in al-Maghrib. The first type was derived from the fusion of old madaris with new universities. For example, Morocco transformed Al-Qarawiyin (859 A.D.) into a university under the supervision of the ministry of education in 1963.

Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That you can, with a straight face, accuse others of edit-warring for months now in order to enforce your view is incredible. You, more than any other user, have been edit-warring over this issue on multiple articles. Either stop doing so, or stop with dishonest "who me?" type of replies. nableezy - 19:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

And you continue to flat out distort what sources say. The Encyclopedia of African History does not support the novel claim that you continue to attribute to it. Repeated misrepresentations of a source can happen only so many times before it has to be called a willful lie. And that you continue to use a book by a freelance journalist writing about the Taliban for the history of a Moroccan university only underscores who warped your reasoning has been, and continues to be. Compare the line from Taliban: The Unknown Enemy to, I don't know, let's go with these:

• Aslam, Ednan, ed. (2009), Islamic Education in Europe, Wiener islamisch-religionspädagogische Studien, vol. 1, Böhlau Verlag Wien, pp. 220–221, ISBN 9783205783107, The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
• Goldstone, Jack (2008), Why Europe?: the rise of the West in world history, 1500-1850, McGraw-Hill Higher Education, p. 140, ISBN 9780072848014, Islamic scientists and scholars developed the first universities as centers for scholarship in North Africa and Egypt; the universities of Al-Azhar in Cairo, founded in AD 988, and of Al-Karaouine in Fez (Morocco), founded in 859, are the world's oldest ongoing universities

I really cannot understand why you insist on continuing to distort what sources say even after you have been informed of the distortion. nableezy - 20:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Based on GPM's and Nableezy's sources above, and Steve McCluskey's reasoning below, it is my distinct impression that among the specialist academic literature, the university is universally considered to have evolved from the medieval European university. While some non-specialist sources tend to describe Karaouine as a university, they are few in number and of lesser scope and depth than the specialist academic literature. Thus, the view that Karaouine is the "world's oldest continuously operating university" is largely a minority view. I think we can all agree on that. In response to Omar-toons draft text, I propose that the madrasas be indeed mentioned in List of oldest universities in continuous operation, but in a separate section at the end of the article, together with the whole madrasa/university issue, but not be included in the table, as this would be a violation of WP:UNDUE. Athenean (talk) 21:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

It is worth pointing of that (Western) Academic sources aren't the be all and end all, we are generally prepared to include non-academic sourced views as well as academic viewpoints. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Some Historiographical Background

I know this isn't the place to discuss content, but let me try to address the state of historical understanding of the history of higher education in the Latin speaking West and in the Arabic speaking world.

The history of medieval universities has been studied for at least a century, accompanying an even earlier study of the history of ideas in the Middle Ages. Early in that study, Hastings Rashdall (The Universities of Europe in the Middle Ages, vol. 1, pp. 17-18, (Oxford: Clarendon Press) ,1895) made the crucial distinction between Universities and their predecessors in cathedral and monastic schools, defining them in terms of their form of organization:

"The University was originally a scholastic Guild whether of Masters or Students. Such Guilds sprang into existence, like other Guilds, without any express authorization of King, Prince, or Prelate. They were spontaneous products of that instinct of association which swept like a great wave over the towns of Europe in the course of the eleventh and twelfth centuries."

As a consequence of this long and detailed examination historians know in great detail when universities were founded, what their origins and precursors were, who taught (and sometimes who studied) at those institutions, and what was taught there. In particular, we have texts that were used for teaching in monastic schools, cathedral schools, and universities. The period from the twelfth century on is not called the era of scholasticism for nothing, it was defined by the development of the universities.

Finally, of course, I must return to Rashdall's definition of the university. The spontaneous origins of the university as a corporate entity provided them a degree of institutional and intellectual autonomy not found when schools were closely patronized by kings, princes, or prelates, and again the battles to maintain that intellectual autonomy has been a recurring element of the history of universities. The Islamic higher educational institutions were, like the European cathedral and monastic schools, were fundamentally religious institutions and had all the limitations (of intellectual control) and benefits (of economic support) that that implied.

The study of scholarship in Islam does not have the depth of the study of medieval universities, but what has emerged is that most scholarship in Islam was not focused on teaching institutions. The texts in the area which I study (the history of astronomy) were produced by scholars who were associated with courts or with religious institutions. See, for example, David King's study of the role of Muwaqqits (religious timekeepers) in Arabic astronomy or the earlier study by Sayili, The Observatory in Islam. Perhaps there is research detailing this kind of deep knowledge of scholarship at Arabic-speaking educational institutions, but it has not been presented in the recurring Wikipedia debates over the University and its origins. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that matches my understanding of the history and viewpoints. I get the basic point being made by the editors who are contesting this issue: "The accepted history of higher education is skewed by and heavily favors Western European ideas and history." That is an accurate and important point. But Wikipedia is not the place to make that point. Right or wrong, it is a minority opinion among the scholars who specialize in this area that the Islamic institutions differed from western universities in significant ways. If that opinion changes then we can and should change our articles accordingly. Until then, the minority view should be represented as such and should definitely not override the majority view. ElKevbo (talk) 05:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that is a particular issue and that can easily be handled by wording. The dispute is really about whether we should include the minority viewpoint at all. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Eraserhead1

First, thank you Gun Powder Ma for inviting me to this discussion even though we have disagreed about this topic in the past. Second, my apologies to Gun Powder Ma for insisting that my lead changes to the List of oldest universities in continuous operation would be enough to avoid further discussion, I was clearly incorrect, but I appreciate that they largely still seem to be there, even though we agreed that they could be removed after 6 months if the dispute was still ongoing.

With regards to the actual issue, I was frankly sick and tired of it a year ago, and I don't think my position on that has changed. However this dispute is still ongoing, and has certainly been continuing on and off for at least 18 months, which is a seriously long time, and certainly that makes the dispute fundamentally unhealthy to the project and therefore it does need resolving.

With regards to resolving the dispute I see several possibilities:

1. GunPowderMa accepts that regardless of his interpretation of the academic sources that he will allow some content on non-European institutions of higher learning, if only to give himself an easy life. Something along the lines of Omar-toons' compromise above seems to be a reasonable position to take, although I'm sure there are reasonable changes that can be made to that text.
2. The article title is changed to "List of oldest European universities in continuous operation" with the non-European Universities (which mostly just clutter the list) taken out, and possibly with an alternative article "List of the oldest institutions of higher learning in continuous operation" covering all institutions of higher learning with the current article being a disambiguation page between them and/or redirect and/or with a hat note to disambiguate them.
3. Some form of binding process, e.g. formal mediation and/or a binding RFC are undertaken to resolve the issue with all the participants either agreeing to fully engage with that process and accept the result whatever it may be or to walk away from the dispute and leave it completely.
4. If neither of the above solutions are considered acceptable, I will take the case to the arbitration committee to take their wisdom on what the next best move is. I would expect them not to initially take the case but I'm sure they will suggest a good way forward, and if that isn't followed then we can go back to arbitration and they will take the case.

I would really like to avoid that final option, as I am greatly enjoying not having to engage with arbitration cases, but if the first two aren't undertaken seriously that is the only sensible option left - I don't think at this point that we can leave this unresolved. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Of note I think "The study of scholarship in Islam does not have the depth of the study of medieval universities" is probably the key issue as Steve points out above.

I'm also prepared to write some content if that would be helpful. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey Ereaserhead, see my response above to Omar-toons draft text. Basically, I am proposing that Karaouine and Al-Azhar be mentioned in some form in the article, but because the weight of scholarship favors the interpretations that modern universities derive from the medieval european university rather than the Islamic institutions, that they not be included in the table, but rather in a few paragraphs at the end. Athenean (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me, but I was happy with the lead changes :). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I would broadly agree with this approach. It's clear to me that the tables should include only institutions which at the "foundation" date stated met the current definition of university, which itself reflects the clear scholarly consensus on this point. The debate then is about precisely how the minority view should be handled. Personally I believe the current approach, explaining the definitions in the preamble, is sufficient, but I don't have a huge problem with a small expansion of this text, including a specific mention of Al-Karaouine, since there is a minority of sources naming this as the oldest university (the case for specifically including Al-Azhar is less clear) together with any equivalent institutions from other cultural backgrounds. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Notification: Participants are invited to a discussion about the reliability of two sources often used in the dispute. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:42, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Eraserhead, the general situation is this: We have two main articles university and madrasa and the two related List of oldest universities in continuous operation and List of oldest madrasahs in continuous operation. The main articles define the subject for the lists and these definitions show both of them to be very different institutions of higher learning. So each institutions warrants a list of its own. The problem now arises from the wish to import entries from the madrasa list also into the university list.

I think everybody agrees that WP:Due is the core policy here and that this minority view madrasa=university should not be totally ignored. However, you consistently seem to overlook that this view is already covered in university and medieval university. The sentiment of many users now is that due weight turns to undue weight if this claim is included in yet another, the third article on the university, particularly because this is a list which works by different principles.

You will agree that the view that the university was unique to Europe and that the madrasa cannot be regarded as a real university is now better sourced than ever before in the dispute. I have created two dozen lists in WP about different topics and in lists you always go by the standard view as defined in the main article. You cannot give every minority view space in a list because this is not in the nature of lists. Why? Because a clear minority view automatically receives heavy undue weight if it is included on top of the list visually trumping the other, much more legitimate entries. Any additional comments don't matter much because a list is a hierarchical structure, is meant to be a hierarchical structure and works to the mind of the reader as a hierarchical structure.

However, I am not unsympathetic to a footnote in the university list citing the minority view. No big deal. But the red line is definitely the list itself and the reason for this is compliance to our policy of WP:Due weight. The right place for any further discussion of this minority view is the article on the subject itself, Al-Karaouine, not the list. Best Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

2012 Aurora shooting and gun control

For whatever reasons, some editors are refusing to allow any mention of relevant gun control issues to be discussed in the article 2012 Aurora shooting. Over the last few days, every attempt to add it has been removed with discussion on talk amounting to "Viriditas is a gun control advocate so he can't add it" (I've never once discussed my views about gun control on Wikipedia) and "Gun control has nothing to do with this article" (actually, there are dozens of RS devoted to the topic of the Colorado shooting and gun control). I have now added a POV tag to the article 2012 Aurora shooting and I've made a very small list of sources here and here which I'm working on expanding and improving. I'm filing this report in the hopes that someone not involved in the article (or active on gun issues) can point the way forward. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I will consider myself a relevant party, as I was the first to voice a concern about neutrality on the article's talk page. On the 25th, I had witnessed Viriditas writing about his personal feelings on surging gun sales on the article's talk page, at great length and with what I interpreted as a very distressed tone about firearms. The talk page looked like this before that section was wiped by editor Ryan Vesey. I was worried that Viriditas's very strong thoughts might lead him to add incorrect or biased information to the article, but he did not. A day later, when the article was still silent about gun control, he added to the lead section but Ryan Vesey recommended that he move the information to a new section. When I saw this section added, I commented on the talk page suggesting that he may be POV pushing in light of his removed "Colorado wackiness quotient goes to 11" comments. I realize this was a bad faith assumption, and I apologize for reacting harshly.

As far as content is concerned, I believe the article should say that firearm sales surged, which can be attributed to a fear of more restrictive gun laws in the future, and also to a heightened desire for self-defense. Both of these reasons were mentioned in the news report that Viriditas originally linked to and can be cited. We should also mention (if sources are available) that anti-gun groups were angered because the AR-15 rifle (the target of many assault weapons bans) and high-capacity magazines used by Holmes were available legally and purchased legally. Besides those, I don't see any other required or appropriate mentions of the gun debate. Technician Fry (talk) 09:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm confused by your response. I just provided two separate links to sources in my opening statement here, one with URL's and one without, so I'm confused as to why you are continuing to ignore the sources while claiming that you "don't see any other required or appropriate mentions of the gun debate". Clearly, those sources mention issues you have not yet addressed, from the historical background of gun laws in Colorado that allowed the shooter to arm himself to the role of the gun lobby, to the positions of voters and elected officials. You've already argued that we should talk about the gun laws, so it follows we should include a brief historical background of gun laws in Colorado that the sources describe. Viriditas (talk) 09:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I am very neutral on gun control. I live in Canada and have never used it as a reason to change who I vote for. I believe it should be decided by democracy in each jurisdiction. That said I agree the article should not be a forum for it. I agree with the one sentence that says permit applications increased and only one other sentence with wikilinks to the state's gun law article and to the gun politics in the US article. 'This incident has led to more debate on gun control and the state laws.' type thing--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Covering a topic does not make it a "forum" for that topic, and I have no idea where you get that from. What we have here is a small group of vocal editors (who do not represent a majority nor a consensus) attempting to override WP:NPOV. That's the only reason I'm participating in this discussion. I have ZERO interest in gun control issues or debates. Per NPOV, we must represent the gun control and issues related to gun control "fairly, proportionately" and without bias" using "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". A small sample of these views are represented by 22 sources about the shooting and gun control. Based on the preponderance of reliable sources on this topic, it deserves far more than "one sentence", and there is, in fact, no justification nor any rationale for demanding only one sentence aside from "I DON'T LIKE IT". As for neutrality, neither you nor Technician Fry are uninvolved, and I've specifically asked for uninvolved editors to comment, specifically uninvolved editors who are not connected to any gun topic. As far as I can tell, you and others are trying to override NPOV and that is not acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 00:32, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. But it should go in a gun debate section in the gun debate article as most others have said. This article is not about gun debates. This article is about the incident. Feel free to create a section in that article and link it. I don't see theater securty debate, police actions debate, evacuation debate, etc, etc all wanting to add to this article. Please stop WP:STICK.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The sample of 22 sources I've cited above are directly about the background, impact, and reaction to the Colorado shooting. They are not about a "gun debate article" as you keep trying to claim. Please stop attempting to reframe the discussion in order to push your POV. You are not neutral on this subject and I've repeatedly requested uninvolved editors not connected to this topic nor to gun control topics. It is my opinion that you are trying to override the WP:NPOV policy due to your strong beliefs about guns. This subject is appropriately covered by dozens of sources and must be represented in the article about the shooting, not in a separate article. It should be noted that one of the primary tactics of POV pushers is to move information they don't like to other articles. Viriditas (talk) 01:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

From: Wikipedia:NPOV#Due_and_undue_weight. "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and NPOV, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

While certainly a case can be made for adding a paragraph or two about gun control, a case can also be made for just a sentence or two. Ultimately, there are no right or wrong answers, but I can understand the desire to keep the article from becoming a WP:COATRACK for gun control. If it were me, I'd probably err on the side of caution and focus on the shooting itself with just a brief mention of gun control. Readers who want to know about gun control can just go to the Gun control article.

I noticed that one of the editors on the talk page called gun control the "elephant in the room". It seems to me that the elephant in the room is actually mental health.

I suppose one way to handle the situation is to create a separate article on 2012 Aurora shooting and gun control. This way, you can keep the main article focused on the shooting, while still being able to provide in-depth coverage of how the shooting affected the gun control debate. Everyone wins and it gives you guys a second article to fight over. Happy editing. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:40, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a WP:POVFORK which is discouraged. I have many sources documenting experts from academia, law enforcement, and the government, talking about federal and state gun laws in the context of this shooting. And while I've documented more than 20 reliable sources on the subject, the number I'm currently working with is about 50. The problem is that every effort to add this material is reverted by the same three or four editors who have very strong positions on gun control. Meanwhile, the sources are not being used. The process you describe is backwards. We're supposed to work from the parent article first, and if the topic gets too large, then we split out. Right now, I can't even get two sentences in without being reverted, and the rationale for the reverts is rarely supported. Viriditas (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The number of sources doesn't have any impact on whether the material is being represented properly. I could have 10,000 sources saying they sell M&M's at the concession stand at this theater, but it doesn't mean I MUST include a mention of the concession stand. What is the rationale for making a larger proportion of this article talk more about gun control? That is the key question you should be answering. -- Avanu (talk) 04:33, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

You're not uninvolved, Avanu, and I've never said this is about the number of sources. I've said that the preponderance of sources meets and exceeds the threshold for inclusion of this topic as a significant viewpoint, and deserves due weight. It is not being given due weight because editors are claiming it violates NPOV, but the opposite is true. It is a violation of NPOV to remove it and to not allow us to represent the topic in proportion to its coverage in the sources. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

@Viriditas: A POV fork is when:

a) You rewrite the same article from a different POV. IOW, if you wrote the article with a pro-shooter perspective.

b) You write an article about a particular POV. IOW, if you wrote the sub-article only from a pro-gun perspective or an anti-gun perspective.

Instead, what I'm suggesting is that this is a sub-topic of the main topic.

Anyway, I don't want to get too involved in an NPOV dispute. I've given you my uninvolved opinion. Take from it what you will. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

"The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article." Avanu, Canoe1967, and Technician Fry would have us believe that we can't mention that Colorado has loose gun laws compared to other states (The New York Times, 'Canberra Times, other sources) and that the "high-capacity ammunition magazines" used in the shooting "would have been outlawed under the 1994 federal assault weapons ban that Congress allowed to lapse in 2004." (Los Angeles Times) We also can't mention that Colorado has "no ban on assault weapons. No ban on high-capacity ammunition clips. No registration. No gun owner licensing. No background checks for online gun sales. No police discretion to determine who carries concealed handguns in public" and "No limit on the number of handguns you can buy in one purchase." (Canberra Times) All of these items are relevant to the shooting and the sources discuss this. Viriditas (talk) 04:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Viriditas, I would ask that you read my question and answer it, not make stuff up. In my last comment I asked: 'What is the rationale for making a larger proportion of this article talk more about gun control? That is the key question you should be answering.' Instead of talking about that you said "You're not uninvolved, Avanu", which simply puzzled me, and then in your reply just above, you claim I that I don't want a "mention that Colorado has loose gun laws compared to other states", which ALSO puzzles me, because I don't care what you include as long as you do it in a way that makes sense. So please... focus on my question. I didn't ask it just to waste effort typing. I'll repeat it if you missed it: "What is the rationale for making a larger proportion of this article talk more about gun control?" And don't simply say how many sources you have... that only relates to verifiability. So, great... we have sources that show something is covered in the press. But answer my question and MAYBE you'll see why I am asking it. -- Avanu (talk) 05:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

No, stating facts about gun laws is not discussing gun control or the gun control debate. You are arguing that NPOV should not apply to this topic because in your opinion, gun violence and gun law are not relevant—but they are and sources indicate that they are a significant part of the topic involving the shooting. By removing this material, you and the other editors are actually violating our core policies. The only source that argues that gun violence and gun laws are separate issues that aren't relevant to public health are special interest groups like the NRA. Viriditas (talk) 05:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the rationale for making a larger proportion of the 2012 Aurora shooting article talk more about gun control? -- Avanu (talk) 11:57, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

• I do think it appropriate for the article on the shooting to mention that the event has sparked a renewal of the political debate over gun control (such a mention would appropriately be placed in a section on "Reactions" or "Aftermath" etc.) However, that mention should be brief, leaving actual discussion of gun control to other (linked) articles. Keep the article on the event focused on the event itself. Blueboar (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

If RS report it we record it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:00, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Not quite... WP:UNDUE indicates that sometimes we don't record things, even if they were reported by RS. In the context of an article about an event, it usually is appropriate to briefly mention political debates resulting from of the event... but we run the risk of devoting too much space to discussing such political debates, which detracts from our coverage of the event itself... ie too much discussion of the political debates might well give undue weight to those debates in the specific context of an article about a specific event. Determining how much space any one aspect of a topic should be given always requires some editorial judgement. Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Gun issues are an integral part of the event. We cover gun issues in depth in similar articles, such as the Virginia Tech massacre. The problem isn't undue weight, the problem is not enough weight. At this point, we've got somewhere between 50-100 reliable sources focusing solely on gun issues and Aurora. This continued claim that it only merits a brief mention when we have this many sources focusing on the topic doesn't make any sense, and frankly, isn't supported by the policies. Viriditas (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Whenever major crimes are reported they spark debate about whether current laws are adequate, which should be mentioned. TFD (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

There are an immense range of topics that are related to but not about the topic. Two that come to mind are those including prominent folks like Ted Nugent who are saying that if the other folks had been armed, casualties would have been less than 1/10th what they were, and other folks saying that more gun control would have solved it. IMHO we could briefly mention those but otherwise the article should avoide those and stay on topic. North8000 (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Ted Nugent is not considered a reliable source about gun issues and the Aurora shooting. On the other hand, an expert like Robert Spitzer is. I intend to expand the article with statements of facts from experts. Viriditas (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I added more. "The assault rifle had been banned for 10 years starting in 1994 and expired in 2004. There have been multiple attempts to renew the ban, but no bill has reached the floor for a vote."--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Does the use of the description "Pirate" violate WP:LABEL

David Jewett was a Privateer in the employ of the Buenos Aires businessman Patrick Lynch in 1820. In that year he set sail on a privateering voyage with Letters of Marque that authorised him to seize Spanish ships. However, he failed to find any Spanish ships instead he seized a Portuguese and an American ship. As a result he is considered by many reliable secondary sources to have crossed the line into piracy.

He is considered an important figure in Argentina's sovereignty claim as in October/November 1820 he entered Port Louis, Falkland Islands to repair storm damage and whilst there performed a ceremony claiming the islands for the Republic of Buenos Aires.

Editors are objecting to the use of the word "Pirate" in the article, as in their perception it is detrimental to Argentina's sovereignty claim and thus fails WP:LABEL. Some authors do question the value of a ceremony performed by a pirate, equally other authors point out that as a privateer authorised to seize Spanish property, a former Spanish settlement was fair game.

Other than being one of the lamest edit wars ever, I rather suspect it is a language confusion as the Spanish equivalent Piratas is considered somewhat of an insult. We have politely pointed out this is not the case in English but the same editors point blank refuse to believe us.

I would request a 3rd opinion, as to whether Pirate in this context fails WP:LABEL. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I would avoid bluntly saying "Jewett was a pirate" in Wikipedia's voice... instead phrase it as an attributed statement of opinion ... saying something like "Many historians, such as X, Y and Z, are of the opinion that Jewett crossed the line into piracy." Blueboar (talk) 19:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It would seem that he was regarded as a pirate, and RS call him such. Also this Argentine sources calls him a pirate http://www.argentinaindependent.com/life-style/thecity/colectivaizeishon-the-20/ So its hard to see how this can been seen as a label violation, but perhaps in the sprit of compromise change the text to “David Jewett, who had been accused of piracy”. He had been accused of piracy by the portugese government.Slatersteven (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

One clarification: WCM says that those who oppose the use of "...is a pirate" in the lead are introducing the sovereignty dispute into the discussion. But if you check the article, it's another thing: the source that calls Jewett a pirate is a source involved in the dispute and taking a side in it, not a generic source such as a biography or a "history of X place" report. And it is explicit in that it calls Jewett a pirate to justify the British claim of that dispute. Page 9, 4º paragraph.

Besides, the problem of the lead is not just the use of the word "pirate", but the use to construct an ad-hominem description of Jewett, using misleading half-truths to confuse the casual reader. When you read "Colonel David Jewett was an American pirate who played a notable role in the history of the sovereignty dispute between Great Britain and Argentina", you may interpret that when Jewett raised the flag of Argentina at the Malvinas it was an act of piracy. Not quite: the issue that takes piracy into the equation is a completely unrelated issue with a Portuguese ship, and neither Portugal nor the whole action is related to the one of the flag or the sovereignty dispute. Cambalachero (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC

The above does neatly illustrate the problem. The actual edit Cambalachero disputes is this one [12], which reflects secondary sources cited in the article, meaning the lede reflects the article. There is nothing in the article to make such a link and we don't remove information in case a reader makes a link between two disparate pieces of information. There is nothing in the article to link Jewett's actions on the Falklands as an act of piracy, the article makes it plain the difference between the legitimate and illegitimate acts. And for information, Jewett's acts of piracy are not a factor in the British case see [13]. As I make plain above, some authors make that link but it is NOT a factor in the British case. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

No. but this book (publisehd in Nw Yrok in 1835) does make a link http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3aQNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=David+Jewett+%2B+piracey&source=bl&ots=q352eWkoQ5&sig=_W_aQ0ZClce9_t0Im_7nzLoqlLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3GEUUP75Esa00QW_2ICgDQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=David%20Jewett%20%2B%20piracey&f=false. Saying (in esecne) that it is orinic that Argentian shuld cliam the Falklands based upon the ations of a porate. This might also need to be checked Destefani, Laurio H. 'El coronel de marina David Jewett y el crucero corsario de la fragata Heroine.Slatersteven (talk) 22:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Slatersteven, have you actually read what you linked? I wouldn't count as an "Argentine source" one where the writer says himself "As a prominent Brit in Buenos Aires I...". The second is a primary source of 2 centuries ago. Cambalachero (talk) 23:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

NPOV should support the lead to say "Colonel David Jewett was an American privateer and pirate" as it is indisputable that he was both. The actions under his privateer marque were legitimate while those under piracy were not. The piracy can't affect the legitimacy of his privateering actions. Weddell's arguement is the only one with any substance. The arguements that his piracy affected the legitimacy of the Falklands claim can't be supported and is just cherry picking by historians with an agenda. Wayne (talk) 05:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The second source is not primary, it is secondary. It was not write by a participant of the action, not by any of the two-compeatating parties the Islands future. As to it's age, all that means is that this represents a contemporary view of him. It’s clear he was accused of being a pirate, and was regarded by both the USA and Portugal of being such.Slatersteven (talk) 10:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Laurio Hedelvio Destéfani (1982). The Malvinas, the South Georgias, and the South Sandwich Islands, the conflict with Britain. Edipress. p. 77. ISBN 978-950-01-6904-2. Retrieved 29 July 2012. Quote: "In 1820 he was appointed Commander of the pirate frigate "Heroína", with which he made an ill-fated campaign where he faced mutiny and scurvy". And a Google search [14]. There is ample evidence in secondary sources he was referred to as a pirate. Destéfani is significant, as the book was printed in 1982 and 127,050 free copies distributed to libraries around the world, with the sole purpose of presenting Argentina's sovereignty claim in favourable terms. Clearly even Argentine academics do not consider the denonym "Pirate" as a problem. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

WCM, I have the book you're citing in front of me, and it refers to it as "fragata corsaria" which would translate (according to Linguee.es, which works like an Rosetta Stone that uses online reliable sources with both English and Spanish versions available) as "corsair ship" or "privateer ship". I quote (in Spanish, of course): "En 1820 fue nombrado Comandante de la Fragata Corsaria Heroina y con ella partió en una desventurada campaña corsaria, signada por el motín y el escorbuto".

Also, another thing: the capture of the American ship Rampart was ruled as "good prize" by the Tribunal de Presas in Buenos Aires, because the cargo she was carrying was destined to Madrid.

Someone quoted Wedell above: I remind you that Wedell is a primary source, therefore not reliable. Same goes for John Murray Forbes, United States' comercial agent in Buenos Aires at the time the Rampart was taken to port, who was "openly in war" (his words) with David Jewett. Jose Antonio da Fonseca Figueira, perhaps the foremost expert in Jewett's life (he traced his later career in Brazil and found his grave in Catumbi cemetery), argues that Forbes was part of a conspiracy who profited from the sale of blank letters of marque to corsair ships (more about the affair here). He even remarks against these accusations, that the Rampart was ruled as fair game by the aforementioned Tribunal of Presas and that his conduct as Captain of the Heroina was approved by the Governor of Buenos Aires, Martín Rodriguez, in 1821.

All this being said, it is evident that not all authors consider Jewett's actions as "piratical". What's more, it is not being proved here that the term "pirate" is "widely used by reliable sources to describe" David Jewett. This is required in WP:LABEL and that's the reason why I oppose to the term pirate being applied in the lede to both Jewett and the Heroina ship: "value-laden labels may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". The Google Books search provided above by Wee Curry Monster only yields fifteen (15) results out of about 16,700 occurrences for "David Jewett" term alone. I'm sorry but no, that's not a widely recognized attribute/profession of David Jewett.

Regards. --Langus (t) 01:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have the English language version of the Destefani book and it says Pirate, the above is a direct quote from the English language version published in Argentina. Funnily enough you can see the quote in Google books, so trying to deny it exists is rather futile. And just to remind everyone Destefani is especially significant for the reasons stated above and I'm sure they made an effort to get the translation right. Further it has been demonstrated the description is widely used, was contemporary at the time and your attempt to dispute this is weak at best. I thought you stated on the talk page you'd respect the opinions here? Wee Curry Monster talk 09:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

not all of the hits here [15] are for the man wwe are speaking off. But the first hit that clearly is calls him a pirate.Slatersteven (talk) 10:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

So, it all comes down to a mistranslation? When sources have mistakes they should be silently ignored, not cited as if they were facts. Sources are not infallible, we should not act as if they were. Yes, surely they wanted to make a good translation, that does not mean they actually achieved it.

And, as pointed, there 15 results for "David Jewett" + "piracy", and 16,700 for "David Jewett" alone. And even within those 15 results we can find false positives, when the word "piracy" was used but not in relation to Jewett. 15 out of 16,700, that enough to take WP:UNDUE into the discussion. Cambalachero (talk) 12:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

No it isn't a mistranslation, its a direct verbatim quote, and its not 15 hits out of 16,700. Nor is it a mistake in the source, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it is a contemporary viewpoint. Lets bring out the elephant in the room, why did you consider this had a material impact on Argentina's sovereignty claim and why do you think that has any relevance to removing it from the lede. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not a wikipedia mistranslation, it is a verbatim quote of a mistranslated book. As for Forbes, he points his own views, it is too pretentious to expect that all XIX century people shared his view, simply because he wrote them down in a book. As for your question, the very report used as reference (which supports the British claim) says that. Cambalachero (talk) 13:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

WCM, Slatersteven, Cambalachero, I believe we've all made our points clear. I'd suggest we wait for input now. --Langus (t) 14:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Destefani's work is an Argentine book, produced purely to present Argentina's sovereignty claim in 1982. So I suppose it and every other work is a mistranslation? This isn't a case of examining contemporary sources to show that a claim made in a reference work is demonstrably false, something which Langus-TxT attacked me for here. Its a case of finding reasons to ignore sources because you don't like the point they make. Fundamentally you both object to the denonym "pirate" because you consider it detrimental to Argentina's sovereignty claim, which is why you claim it fails WP:LABEL. The British claim does not depend on the characterisation of Jewett's actions as piracy, see the link above, one author makes such a comment but as I've pointed out others dispute it, and, this is an important point, we don't make that claim in the article.

BTW in case you haven't noticed all the feedback from uninvolved editors, and I include Slatersteven in that as he was not involved in the discussion, is that we should include "pirate" in the description. Do you want to wait for a dissenting voice or accept you are both wrong in this matter? 16:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Wee, it fails WP:LABEL for the reasons exposed above, which instead of addressing you chose to resort to personal attacks and to the straw man argument of linking this issue with the sovereignty claim.

Slatersteven is a regular of Falklands-related articles, like you and me, he is fully involved.

Please, I insist, lets hear opinions. --Langus (t) 23:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

For the record, Langus' claim I created a straw man argument of linking this issue with the sovereignty claim is completely and utterly untrue. It was raised by Langus and Cambalachero as an objection, for example [16] and I quote " And it is a word that labels because it is seen as negative information by the reader and casts doubt on the legitimacy of the actions told immediately afterwards (see Ad hominem)." Its fairly clear that the reason they object to this, is their perception it is detrimental to Argentina's sovereignty claim.

Apparently finding reliable sources isn't enough, [17], sorry but it is. NPOV indeed does requires we reflect ALL major views in the literature. Not just the ones we don't consider detrimental to Argentina's sovereignty claim. Wee Curry Monster talk 08:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

NPOV requires us to avoid value-laden labels unless widely used by reliable sources. --Langus (t) 11:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Except A) it isn't a value-laden label but you refuse to believe us [18] and it is widely used by reliable sources. Your stated reason for refusing to allow its use in the lede is that you consider it detrimental to Argentina's sovereignty claim but that is a POV position fundamentally at odds with a WP:NPOV; we present ALL mainstream opinions in the literature. In respect of just about every principle involved in writing for wikipedia you are utterly wrong, even to the point of ignoring Argentine historians. Finally, you're simply ignoring the fact that all of the feedback from the none involved editors supports its use. Frankly you don't have a leg to stand on here. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

15 of 16700 entries is not "widely used", and I repeated several times that the link of piracy and the sovereignty dispute is made in the report used as a source. Is this your tactic? Go around in circles, repeating the same refuted arguments until the others get tired of it? Cambalachero (talk) 12:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Its not 15 out of 16700, you're comparing apples and oranges. In addition, you made the link then tried to justify it post hoc with the comment about the reference, ignoring A) that it isn't in the article, B) other sources dispute the point and C) it is irrelevant to the officially stated British position. No matter how much you try and obfuscate the facts, there is a written record that contradicts you. Please stop your accusations of disruptive conduct, you know where WP:ANI is. And you're still ignoring the fact that outside opinion disagrees with you. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Going in circles and trying to win a discussion by repeating several times the same thing until wearing out the others is not disruptive, it's just weak argumentation. So far we have seen 3 sources, 4 if we count the mistranslation, that call Jewett a "pirate" and an attempt to conclude that they represent the wide usage. I can easily prove otherwise. David Jewett, una biografía para la historia de las Malvinas, Manual de historia marítima argentina, Manual de historia naval argentina, Grandes batallas de la historia and Historia argentina: Unitarios y federales (1826-1841) All of them generic sources, unrelated to the dispute. None of them call Jewett a pirate. Cambalachero (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you've proved nothing, claiming that Spanish references don't use an English word is not a convincing argument! The English language sources do, the claim that any source that contradicts you is a mistranslation doesn't stand up. You are trying to present this as a digital situation either he is or isn't. Sorry he was both a privateer AND a pirate, as a result it is appropriate to mention both as the example Henry Morgan shows, who by the way was also never CONVICTED of piracy. You accuse others of "circular argument", you agreed to bring this here for a 3rd opinionm, you got one but you don't like it, so you dispute it with tendentious and spurious argument. Thats the very dictionary definition of arguing in circles. Wee Curry Monster talk 14:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

NPOV requires that we mention all significant viewpoints and opinions about a subject... the opinion that Jewett was a pirate is a significant viewpoint... so it the opinion that he was not a pirate. Thus both opinions need to be mentioned. What is at issue is how we should do so. Wikipedia needs to remain neutral on the question of whether he was or was not a pirate... we achieve this neutrality by noting that there is a difference of opinion among sources... and attributing each opinion to those who hold it. Blueboar (talk) 14:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that succinctly summarises the point I have been making. Many thanks. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Is there any siurces saying he was not a pirate?Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

No there isn't. He is described both as a Pirate by Portuguese & American sources and by some Argentine sources. In his career he also acted as a Privateer by for Argentina and the USA.

My proposal for the intro:

“ Colonel David Jewett (1772-1842)was an American-born privateer, who served for many different countries. He fought under the American flag in the Quasi-war and the War of 1812. He moved to South America and served the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata during the Argentine War of Independence. Commanding the ship Heroína, he took possesion of the Falkland Islands in 1820. He captured Portuguese and American ships, and was accused of piracy for those actions. He moved then to Brazil, a Portuguese colony which had declared independence, and joined its navy. ”

Is this better? It is a summary of the rest of the article, and address the issue of piracy without labeling. Cambalachero (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The version you opposed is also a neutral summary and does not label. I would oppose this for a number of reasons, including the fact that it omits details of what he was authorised to do. In addition the place for this discussion is the article talk page. Not here. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a big difference in saying "he is a pirate" and "he was accused of piracy of X action". The second is better because it is specific and avoid vague generalizations. Cambalachero (talk) 15:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

My point was that omitting his letters of marque authorised action only against Spanish ships is not helpful. Address the point made for a change please. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:22, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Cambalachero. Blueboar, I would like to draw your attention to two facts:

a) None of the sources presented here call him "a pirate", they limit themselves to remark the so-called piratical acts. We'd be basically doing original research (WP:synthesis) based on secondary sources if we say he was a pirate.

b) The piracy accusation are already included in the article. Would you think they really are so important as to be included in the lede? Or are they being included just to support a POV? --Langus (t) 17:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Langus, what happened to your undertaking to respect a third opinion here? Wee Curry Monster talk 22:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't get your point. Are you asking me to remain silent while you keep on repeating yourself? Rest assured I am listening, but if can speak all you want, so can I.

Would you get us a valid source that calls Jewett "a pirate"? To be honest, as if there were not enough reasons already, I'm fearing we might be presenting original research... --Langus (t) 00:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

You've had plenty, pretending you haven't is just ridiculous. It clearly isn't WP:OR as it reflects the usage in reliable secondary sources. No I just find the blatant hypocrisy quite breathtaking, you've falsely accused me ad nauseum of ignoring advice on this board, you agreed to respect the opinions here, yet the moment they contradict you, here you are lobbying to have your position validated. Wee Curry Monster talk 08:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Haha "lobbying". I am lobbying and you're enlightening people. And Jewett was a pirate.

I must be blind but I cannot find any source explicitly calling Jewett "a pirate". Would you please make a fool out of me and point us to one of them? Or are you going to suspiciously evade the question again, replacing a reply with an ad hominem comment? --Langus (t) 17:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Imam Daayiee Abdullah

I just stumbled across this article, which appears to engage in subtle WP:PEACOCKing and WP:COATRACKing (e.g, the idea that everything which the subject stands for is necessarily oppression, which we just can't say as a neutral encyclopedia). I am not good at rewriting articles so I ask for your assistance. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 03:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it a shot, as much as I can do. Not the best at this either, but others can improve on this.

Imam Daayiee Abdullah,(no comma needed) is a gay Muslim who aids in the fight has been fighting against discrimination and hatred (an editor would be able to easily prove that hatred does exist, but another editor may be able to prove that the use of the term shouldn't be here, true or not, so I'll just leave this note here) towards homosexuals and Muslims alike.[1] Adbullah is one of the front-runners against the injustice against LGBT Muslims, Through a group called the Al-Fatiha Foundation, Abdullah has been active in this campaign, and has even been perceived by many as being at the front of this campaign (citation).[2] Although there is much controversy, Abdullah has become raisinged' awareness of the oppression of homosexuals in Islam (same as before, Muslim communities may be better wording), but also is also viewed by many stands as a symbol of hope and proof[peacock term] that one can be gay and Muslim.[2]

Not perfect, but may be a start.--Activism1234 04:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

War on Women: "redefining rape"

This is concerning the article War on Women, specifically the misuse of sources in an attempt to make an unqualified statement in Wikipedia's voice that Republican politicians are seeking, or have sought, to "redefine rape". When I found this article yesterday, the offending language was present in both the lead and the body.

Here is a diff of how the article looked before my attempt modify the wording for neutrality: [19]

Here is a diff following 3 incremental changes in an attempt to reconcile the article to factual statements actually found in the sources provided: [20]

These adjustments were quickly reverted. I let the article simmer for a day, and found it this afternoon in this state: [21]

As you can see, the changes I made to the body survived, but the lead does not conform to statements made further down. I made a final attempt at compromise by adding a qualification: [22] The qualification, while a less than optimal solution, should have had the effect of satisfying other editors who think the phrase itself is somehow important. (Evidently, not so: [23])

For background and edification purposes, here is the Talk discussion wherein the problem was initially pointed out and discussed: [24] Note that the reverting editor is having trouble with the concept of an editorial comment appearing in a straight news story, particularly in special interest publications (i.e, Ms. Magazine) or boldly partisan new outlets (i.e., Mother Jones, Talking Points Memo), and also seems to be having trouble grasping that sourcing is a threshold to inclusion, not a guarantee. Also note that I am not asserting bad faith here, merely outlining a need for education.

The crux of my case is that the allegation is based on a specific Congressional proposal, unpopular with liberals, that would have limited Medicaid coverage for a narrowly-defined subset of rape victims (see sources in article). No source says there was an attempt to redefine the word rape, or the crime of rape. Therefore "redefine rape" is an extremist, partisan construct that may or may not be necessary for a Wikipedia reader to understand the article subject matter, but in no case should be stated in Wikipedia's voice as an empirical fact. (There is also some controversy surrounding trans-vaginal ultrasounds, but that involves a Democrat effort to redefine rape, which does not appear to be something that previous editors thought to mention, and does not seem to be a part of this NPOV problem.)

I'm looking for ideas to get this article back on track, short of taking it through DRN. I am not wedded to any edits that I myself have made, only to the proposition that the initial wording should not be allowed to stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belchfire (talk • contribs)

I share your trepidation about using opinion pieces and/or partisan sources (e.g. Talking Points Memo). Fortunately, better sourcing is available - for example, straight-news pieces from reliable sources such as the Christian Science Monitor and CBS News. I'd suggest simply rewriting the material in question with these, or other, appropriate sources. MastCell ^Talk 03:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem lies in using Wikipedia's voice to document a widely used accusation. That accusation and exact wording (that GOP legislation is "redefining rape") is widely used by critics of the GOP's war on women, and thus is a legitimate subject covered by Wikipedia's aim - "to document the sum of human knowledge". This isn't a minor, unknown, fringe opinion. We don't bury notable controversies, we document them. Sometimes that means attribution is necessary. If this were incontrovertible and undeniable scientific fact, no attribution would be necessary, and we could state it in Wikipedia's voice, but this is political opinion, accusation and interpretation, so the Wikipedian thing to do is to attribute it, because mere deletion would be partisan whitewashing. When we find something we disagree with, it's often easier to just delete it, but it may be even better, in the spirit of NPOV, to find/request a source, or reword it neutrally, even if we totally abhore the idea. Attribution serves this purpose nicely. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally, penetrating a woman's vagina without her consent is federally recognised as rape (there's also an argument that the woman, and the doctor, is coerced into the penetration that a transvaginal ultrasound requires, but I'm not sure if that's also rape under the legal definition; it is under the moral definition). Sceptre ^(talk) 04:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, and to add insult to injury, in one state (Arizona?), doctors are required to lie to patients who seek abortion, by scaring them with talk of an increased risk of suicide. It's all pretty nasty and violates women's free choice in many ways. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, but what about the the article? Belchfire-TALK 06:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the "forcible" rape part it is clearly trying to redefine rape since it decriminalizes (or did anyway) statutory and date rape. It seems obvious that the prose for "redefine" works better then "limits the definition." As well the sources as as much:

• The House GOP's Plan to Redefine Rape - Mother Jones
• Abortion Rights Activists Decry House Bill They Say Attempts to Redefine Rape - CBS News
• What's Behind The Drive To Redefine Rape In New And Insane Ways? - Huffington Post
• Did bill try to redefine rape? GOP backs down after public outcry. - Christian Science Monitor.

I'm not sure about it for anything else but in that context it is said to be a redefinition. CartoonDiablo (talk) 07:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

How about "... and the allegation that some members of the Republican Party are attempting to redefine rape to include only forcible rape"? That makes it clear that it's an allegation (and the fact that some people allege it is easily confirmed, regardless of whether the allegation is true), without Wikipedia 'taking sides' on whether the allegations have merit. Mogism (talk) 10:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Again, this case highlights the importance of avoiding partisan sourcing, as there seems to be a great deal of confusion - even in this thread - about the facts of the matter. (For example, the dispute did not "criminalize" or "decriminalize" anything; it revolved around Medicaid funding for induced abortion). The Christian Science Monitor piece is actually a very good, dispassionate overview. Here's what happened:

Medicaid (which provides health insurance coverage for the very poorest Americans) is legally barred from covering abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the mother's life. As part of an effort to restrict funding options for abortion, the House Republicans proposed to narrow the definition of "rape" to include only "forcible rape". Thus, if a woman became pregnant as a result of statutory rape, or was drugged and raped while unconscious, etc., Medicaid would not cover an abortion. (Since women on Medicaid are unlikely to be able to afford to pay for an abortion out-of-pocket, this restriction would essentially make it impossible for these women to obtain an abortion if they were "non-forcibly" raped). In response to a public outcry from progressive groups, the Republicans removed the "forcible" language.

The issue was framed by the Democrats as part of a Republican "War on Women" (together with Republican efforts to block equal-pay legislation, restrict insurance coverage of contraception, etc.) That political framing may be notable, but it should be clearly characterized as a partisan political narrative, not as uncontested fact. The facts are that the Republicans proposed to narrow the definition of rape for purposes of Medicaid funding, and then withdrew the language in the face of a public outcry. The Democractic narrative is that this was part of a "War on Women"; the Republican narrative was... I dunno, but presumably they had a stated rationale which we could source and convey.

It's not too hard, if we make a distinction between independent vs. partisan sources and facts vs. political narrative. But it's important, because even in this thread there's evidently substantial confusion about the facts of the matter. MastCell ^Talk 16:56, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think the Republican narrative amounted to "Oh, good grief! You people are nuts. Whatever."

MastCell, you prove your own point very well though, by way of demonstration. The bill was in no way, shape or form an effort to "restrict access to abortion"; as was clearly spelled out in all but the most slanted of sources, the bill was an effort to restrict federal funding for abortion, which is pretty much all Congress has the ability to do. (If lack of federal funding equals "restricting access", then I will write my Congressman forthwith, demanding a federally-funded Ferrari Enzo, as I very clearly have a fundamental, God-given right to own one, but the federal government refuses to pay for it. Oh, the injustice!)

Similarly, CartoonDiablo's misconceptions regarding "decriminalization" are, well, mind-blowing. But in the interest of AGF, it's best to assume he read that somewhere and thinks it's true.

Nevertheless, we are not here to discuss H.R. 3, only how to describe the putative War on Women using the sources we have to work with. "Attribution" is the obvious solution, as it allows the phrase "redefine rape" to remain in the article, which is probably neutral since it was place before the public by the media. I have three editors here who seem to endorse attribution, and if I add myself that makes four. I'll let this ride for a bit longer to collect additional thoughts before heading back to the article. Belchfire-TALK 17:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If a woman is so financially destitute as to qualify for Medicaid, then she is almost certainly unable to afford an abortion out-of-pocket. For these women, restricting Medicaid funding for abortion is equivalent to restricting their access to abortion. Yes, women who are "non-forcibly" raped would still be able to obtain an abortion if they have disposable income - the proposed restriction would have affected only the poorest and most vulnerable subset of the population. Whether that makes it less or more reprehensible is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder.

Funding an abortion for a financially destitute woman who is drugged and raped isn't quite the same as asking for a government-funded Ferrari. That analogy is, hopefully, beneath you.

And yes, I made clear that the bill was focused on federal funding for abortion through Medicaid. The bill would have redefined rape for the purposes of Medicaid funding of abortion services - that's a fact, and does not require in-text attribution, only proper footnoted sourcing. What does require attribution is the idea that the redefinition was part of a Republican "War On Women". MastCell ^Talk 18:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I've tried twice to steer this back on course (albeit, I'm as guilty as others of placing a partisan aside). But it bears pointing out in the interest of simple truthfulness that no rapist would have escaped prosecution under H.R. 3. The bill redefined eligibility for abortion coverage, nothing more, and it is nakedly non sequitur to say that changing how we treat crime victims, without altering the criminal statutes, somehow affects how we define a crime. A certain amount of hyperbole is understandable in politics, but beyond a certain point it becomes slanderous, and unhelpful. This issue is a superb example of that. Belchfire-TALK 18:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)