Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard: Difference between revisions
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<div style="font-size:smaller">Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.</div> |
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.</div> |
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* The [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Francesca Hogi|AfD]] was [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FFrancesca_Hogi&diff=541031954&oldid=541030480 closed as no consensus], so redirecting [[Francesca Hogi]] is inappropriate. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 20:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC) |
* The [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Francesca Hogi|AfD]] was [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FFrancesca_Hogi&diff=541031954&oldid=541030480 closed as no consensus], so redirecting [[Francesca Hogi]] is inappropriate. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 20:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC) |
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*ive reset the nomination in light of he recent war over the article's closure. This is a straight vote |
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=== Francesca Hogi discussion === |
=== Francesca Hogi discussion === |
Revision as of 00:46, 28 February 2013
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Jessica Nabongo | New | Log6849129 (t) | 3 days, 7 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 30 minutes | Robert McClenon (t) | 30 minutes |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 03:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Syrian civil war
No consensus to move forward. Closed without prejudice. Please feel free to refile at any time. Amadscientist (talk) 22:13, 27 February 2013 (UTC) |
Closed discussion | ||
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Opening comments by Lothar von RichthofenPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Previous Kurd/PYD-related discussions: Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_15#RV_Kurdish_from_infobox, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_16#PKK-PYD, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_16#Assad.2FAnti-Assad_forces (note FT's position), Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_17#Third_row_for_Kurds, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_17#"Opposition", Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#kurds_(third_column?), Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#Kurds_as_combatant_#3_again, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#fourth_column, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive778#Organized_edit-warring Will post statement later. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC) WRT the first point (Israel), I'm not terribly invested in it. I think it does merit a mention in the infobox, but I'm not sure how best to represent it. The airstrike is really the main event Israel has had a part in, otherwise we're just talking about shooting whoever is firing artillery westwards so carelessly as to land shells in the occupied Golan (the army, generally speaking—just how the geographic orientation of combat there plays out) and beefing up border security to keep Islamist rebels out. The second point is far more important in my mind. The PYD (one Kurdish group linked to the PKK—neither "PKK" nor "Kurds" broadly construed) fights rebels (Battle of Ras al-Ayn) at least as often as it does the government ([4]). I absolutely and categorically reject any attempt to make this out to be a matter of "undue weight" (explained in detail here)—this is a question of factual accuracy, plain and simple. As for noncombatants, previous consensus at this RfM permitted them, though the more I think about it, the more useless their presence seems to me. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC) Opening comments by ZombiecapperFirstly, thank you Director for finally initiating these proceedings. The current combatant configuration of the info box should remain as two columns. Unlike other preceding Wikipedia civil war articles, the anti-assad factions are extremely fractured. There is no clear governing structure. Although all the factions have one key objective - to overthrow the Assad regime. If we were to grant the PYD an individual column, a precedent would then be set to provide other (SNC non-aligned) factions autonomy, by way of providing them with their own column. We could easily end up with four or five combatants, I am sure everyone agrees that would be hopeless. To the extent of what this civil war is about....it is a battle between two different options...two different paths for the Syrian people. One path leads to a continuation of the neo-baathist Assad republic or two a "Absent Assad non neo-baathist republic." Therefore, I submit that we have the following combatant titles (bold and break-line, absent of flag and/or insignia): Government (Representing the Assad government and their allies) and Insurgents or Anti-Assad Forces (with all the factions/insignia listed directly below in order of political and military influence within that camp). On the subject of Israel, currently the air strike has not yet been acknowledged...the Israelis governments intentions, all though strongly suspected, remain to be confirmed by senior leaders. It should not yet hold a place in the info box. User talk:Zombiecapper. Opening comments by FuturetrillionaireSo I guess the rfc failed and one of the parties decided open up this. Anyways, the current infobox in the article is based on the model used in articles such as Iraq War, Mexican Drug War, and War on Terror, in which the government and its supporters are put in one column and the insurgents/irregulars are put in the other, with a note included that indicates that there is also fighting between insurgent groups. The Kurds have played a very minor role in the conflict, and there is no source defining the scope of this civil war as a 3-way battle. Therefore, giving a 3rd column for the Kurds is completely undue weight. I don't see any problems with the current model, and I don't see any need to screw it up.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC) Sources like this ("Both sides committing war crimes in Syria") clearly indicate that there are two sides in this conflict, not three. The arguments for a 3rd column are based on WP:OR, and not backed by reliable sources.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC) Opening comments by Sopher99Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
We already have the solution of putting a double line between the rebels and the Kurds, plus a note linking to the Kurdistan conflict. If this doesn't satisfy, then it is best to keep the kurds out of the infobox and elaborate on them in the article. Sopher99 (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2013 (UTC) On the subject of Israel, it should not be added anymore than Lebanon/Jordan/Turkey all of which has several casualties but are not considered combatants in the civil war. Mainly because they are not fighting eachother. They are participants in incidental events, not belligerents. Sopher99 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC) Opening comments by EllsworthSKFrankly, I am not really sure what is this about. Is this about Kurds in third column or about infobox in general as listed in dispute overview? I´ll take a shot with later and make these points Syrian civil war discussionThere seems to be some very clear POV pushing with this dispute. The best way to solve this dispute is to take the issues one at a time. First IssueThe first issue we'll solve is
I perceive this dispute to be to determine weather we can verify from a reliable source that Israel is militarily involved in the conflict. For this:
Please comment below weather you think my understanding of the issue is correct and if you agree to solving this issue this way.
Another thing I note is that the "commanders and leaders" box seems to be overcrowded, I should include the the highest commander/leader from each Belligerents Eng.Bandara (talk) 01:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
None of the sources provided by DIREKTOR defines Israel as a combatant in the conflict. They only vaguely say it's somehow more involved than before. All of them refer to one incident, and now are probably outdated. Israel itself has said that its policy is not to get involved in the Syrian conflict.. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Lets take this one issue at a time please, Israel first. It is quite clear that this issue is highly sensitive, However I'm encouraged by the level of POV pushing has seemed to have reduced. There seems to be some misunderstanding about what countries to be included in the info-box. From what I am seeing form the above dialog is:
After studying articles from other civil conflicts, and my own logical thinking, it is of my opinion that.
The sources the user has posted above are good and satisfy WP verifiability policy. Based on these I find
If editors can agree to work out the following questions we can decide where to include Israel.
Lastly it would greatly help if everyone focused on these issues, so we can take this one at a time. Eng.Bandara (talk) 21:09, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Israel only launched an attack on a weapon depot that was going to be sent to Hezbollah,israeli involvement is minimal ,and it doesn't favor both sides especially the rebels. Abdo45 (talk) 22:46, 20 February 2013 (UTC) It would help if you addressed the issues with the inclusion parameters we discussed above. Otherwise this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere, I'll wait another 48 hours if flow of discussion is still being constantly derailed, I will mark for closure as unable to reach consensus. I would suggest formal mediation as a next step. Eng.Bandara (talk) 23:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
How about we just accept that he almost certainly is a sock? It seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether we need to start over.
CarrieVS makes the assertion that there is general "agreement" to continue from the point that Eng.Bandara left off. But just from the edit-warring over whether to strike his comments, it seems to me that that is an ill-advised assertion. I propose a simple straw poll to gauge this. For those parties participating in the mediation, are you satisfied with Eng.Bandara's mediation, or do you want to start over? A simple satisfied or not satisfied with at most a sentence of explanation will suffice. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
--Amadscientist (talk) 09:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC) I myself don't believe there is much chance participants will agree on anything. What is required is additional uninvolved input to form a consensus on the three issues. -- Director (talk) 09:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
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Lists of tropical cyclone names
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Hurricanehink (talk · contribs)
- Jason Rees (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Every six years the national weather service uses the same names for hurricanes and typhoons with a few exceptions. We've attempted to turn over the 2012 list a few times given 2012 season has officially ended. But two users have been persisantly disputing the changes claiming it was original research. In addition they keep intentially spelling the names wrong. Each time we correct they keep reverting to the version with many names poorly spelled
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
We've explained the 2012 season is over but they've insisted their changes are right and that every year anew set of names is created each year.
How do you think we can help?
Come up with a compromise
Opening comments by Hurricanehink
[12] - the National Hurricane Center has not updated the list for 2018 yet, and the names that were there are correct. I protected the page since the anon kept changin be names incorrectly (like Bret to Brett). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Jason Rees
Our list of tropical cyclone names is imo the most accurate list of tropical cyclone names around as it trumps the WMO list of names and we do not add the list of names until we have a source telling us what the names are. While it is true that the names for the Atlantic and Eastern Pacific hurricane seasons rotate every six years, it could be that the WMO decides to add a new list of names or completely change the naming scheme like they did in 2008 with the Australian region list of names. It is also worth noting that the IP is changing the names to what they think is the correct spelling of the name rather than what is the official spelling of the name. I oppose any addition of the names for 2018 until the lists are put out by the NHC/WMO due to the rules on Original Research.Jason Rees (talk) 21:34, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Lists of tropical cyclone names discussion
Who filed this?
Who is 174.226.4.31? — nerdfighter(academy) 21:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Compromise
Would you consider adding the rotated 2012 names for 2018, under a description stating something like "The following names are predicted based on WMO's system of repeating hurricane names every 6 years". The description probable needs some clean up, but would either of you be ok with that? — nerdfighter(academy) 21:41, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- I personally don't see the reason, since the same could be said for 2019, 2020, etc. Not to mention, the NHC still lists only the 2012 list (not 2018). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- I dont personally see the need to include the predicted 2018 names just yet since it is Original Research and due to the fact that we are not here to predict which names will be removed at this years Hurricane Committee in April. Personally i dont see the need to remove the 2012 names just yet and add in the 2018 names as some people might be curious to see what names were used last year still and it would lead to more problems with people marking Sandy as retired since we have the outside chance of it becoming like Gordon 1994 and not being retired.Jason Rees (talk) 21:57, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I'm Carrie; I'm a DRN volunteer. This doesn't mean I have any special privileges or the power to enforce any decisions, but I will try and help you come to an agreement. I have a couple of questions:
- What has been the usual practice in the past when a season ends but the names for six years on haven't been released? (NB: I'm not saying that it must be done as it has been in the past, but if there is an accepted 'usual' practice, we should do that unless consensus emerges for a change.)
- Can we find a source for the prediction of the 2018 names, or is it a prediction by editors based on the 2012 names and the fact that they are usually repeated? CarrieVS (talk) 10:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- From what i can tell we have generally waited until the lists have been released (with the retired names) before updating it, however there will be some random websites out there that will have the 2018 names on them even though they are not available yet based on the fact that the list of names will be used again in 2018.Jason Rees (talk) 17:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- As far as I can see we have three options:
- Leave the 2012 names up until the 2018 list is released.
- Remove the 2012 names and add the predicted 2018 list.
- Remove the 2012 names but do not add the predicted 2018 list.
- 3 has a big disadvantage in that it removes the sixth list of names entirely.
- 2 would be WP:synthesis unless we have a reliable source for the prediction. If someone finds one, then we could discuss whether or not to do this.
- I would suggest 1, but with the addition of a sentence (either below the table or perhaps in a seventh row headed '2018') saying that the 2018 names have not yet been released. The paragraph immediately above the table says that the names are rotated, so readers may deduce for themselves that the 2018 names will probably be the same as the 2012 list. If we can source it, we could potentially include a mention of names which are expected to be retired.
- How does that sound? CarrieVS (talk) 17:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- remove the 2O12 names and add the 2018 list without the predicted names — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.35.208.206 (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- There is no 2018 list without predicted names. The entire 2018 list is only a prediction. (Have edited my above comment to clarify). CarrieVS (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Microsoft Office 2013
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Codename Lisa (talk · contribs)
- Dogmaticeclectic (talk · contribs)
- Sonicdrewdriver (talk · contribs)
- Greglovern (talk · contribs)
- FormerIP (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Recently, magazines have started dedicating coverage to an issue of Microsoft Office 2013: Apparently, the retail versions may only be installed on one computer only. Purchasing a replacement computer means purchasing a new Office.
But how much coverage should we dedicate to this issue? Does WP:SYNTH allow us to say "this might not be legal in Europe" from a source that neither mentions Microsoft, nor Office 2013? (let alone the issue at hand). In addition, there are a lot of unreferenced info. (e.g "Microsoft publicly stated that this change was meant to reduce (or, even eliminate) the pirating of Office that has been rampant for years" fails to be verified against its source.) Should they be kept just because one editor keeps reverting their removal? What about speculations? Is keeping them not against WP:NOT?
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
This issue has been discussed twice in Talk:Microsoft Office 2013. There are two separate discussion threads. All mentioned involved users have participated except User:Dogmaticeclectic, who prefers reverting instead of talking.
How do you think we can help?
As Max Payne says "a millions of dollars question I didn't have the answer for."
Opening comments by Dogmaticeclectic
First of all, WP:CON has already been established at the article's talk page, with all essentially agreeing except for User:Codename Lisa (who at first attempted to ignore it altogether while simultaneously pretending that the issue had already been addressed, and later added the content to the lead as discussed but did so in a manner that made it quite difficult for the average reader to spot). Second, this sentence on that talk page (not by me) - combined with WP:WEIGHT - summarizes my opinion quite well: "From the perspective of news coverage by reliable sources, *the* most discussed new attribute of the retail version of Office 2013 is that it is locked to one machine forever." Third, this dispute is not about the content (WP:SYNTH, WP:V, WP:NOT, etc.) - since there exist numerous WP:RS for that, including the original Microsoft EULA itself - but about the currently-existing content's visibility (User:Codename Lisa is trying to change the subject again). (Fourth, to quote myself this time: "My responses to you were included in my edit summaries. In such cases, I do not think it is necessary to duplicate discussion.") Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 13:09, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Sonicdrewdriver
My personal opinion is that it shouldn't be included too heavily, simply because straight answers are hard to find. We have sources that back up the currently-included point, but there are other sources available that contradict it. I understand that it's a major issue, not something small, that's why I believe some coverage is good, but we shouldn't be alarmist when Microsoft themselves have been known to contradict our summary of their terms. They've failed to respond to direct questioning when I've put it to them (so far) as an organisation, but technical support staff from the company have made statements that muddy the water significantly, if not completely contradict us. drewmunn talk 12:14, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Greglovern
My opinion is that this is very important information that should be briefly stated in the lead and then stated in more detail in the body. For people who have been buying retail editions of Office for many years, this is a very surprising change, and one which can lead to an expensive ($400 for retail Office Pro) mistake.
When we read very surprising information that is mentioned only in passing, it is human nature to assume that the source must be mistaken. To state very surprising information only in passing is to do a disservice to Wikipedia readers. That disservice is compounded when the information could have helped readers avoid an expensive mistake. A reader who makes such an expensive mistake after reading the Wikipedia entry would naturally feel betrayed by Wikipedia.
In accordance with the Wikipedia principle of giving "due weight" (see neutral point of view), surprising information should be given the prominence that would be expected by a reasonable reader, so that the reader takes notice instead of assuming that Wikipedia is mistaken. A reasonable reader would expect such a surprising change to be included in the lead and then stated in detail in the body.
Microsoft representatives who have been asked about this change in the license agreement have given wildly varying answers. However, the license agreement itself is very clear, and in previous retail Office versions Microsoft meant exactly what they said in the license agreement. Withholding information because we fear Microsoft might really mean something different is not in accord with Wikipedia policy.
Where Codename Lisa says "consensus was reached" regarding her dispute with my edits in January and early February, I disagree. I had stopped when I felt I'd done as much as I could, given that per Wikipedia policy I could only quote Microsoft's license agreement and could not "interpret" it in any way. I still believed that the information was not given "due weight". Greg (talk) 21:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by FormerIP
Opening comment by uninvolved editor: FleetCommand
Without naming any name, here is my observation of the article in regard to the current dispute:
- WP:LEAD problem: Lead contains novel info that do not appear in the body
- Content problem: Article contains contents without source and original research, including two instances of improper synthesis of sources, in the disputed area. These must either be deleted or properly referenced. Attempt(s) to reinstate them without direct quotation from a reliable source must cease immediately. Tabloids are not reliable sources and weak/half-hearted statements made by the most reliable sources must not be turned into full-fledged bashful or praising statements in the article. (They must be disregarded.)
- I do not name any names but among the editors, there are those who really seem to be trying to improve the article and communicate with others. At the opposite end of the spectrum are editor(s) whose editing nature is tendentious editing and their communication skills needs a lot of improvements.
- All editors must immediately cease commenting on the contributors and start commenting on the contents. In additions, all editors should refrain from reverting unless there is a clear sign that their contribution will go uncontested. Tags are a semi-exception. Problem tags must remain on the article unless there is a clear sign that the dispute is resolved.
Fleet Command (talk) 13:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Microsoft Office 2013 discussion
Question
I am a little confused about the comment concerning WP:SYNTH and Office '13 in Europe. Could someone please clarify? Thanks. — nerdfighter(academy) 18:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hi.
- WP:SYNTH says that an editor should not advance his own point of view based on material in source, when the said point of view is not in the source. Now, the article says "This may be illegal in the European Union", referring to the new licensing terms but does not provide a source that explicitly confirm it. Existing sources do not directly back this up. One of the sources is about Oracle, not Microsoft. Extending it to Microsoft based on an editors interpretation is WP:SYNTH and not allowed here. An expert must analyze the court ruling to see whether it applies to Microsoft or not, then we can cite him in the article. The other source is The Register which says "European courts tending to lean in favor of consumer rights" but does not specify how much do they lean. There are a couple of other statements about piracy and Trojan Horse-style which have elements of WP:SYNTH in them. There is another problem with this sentence which does not apply to your question.
- Best regards,
- Codename Lisa (talk) 05:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Volunteer's notes
Hello everyone, I will try to help achieve a consensus in this case. I have not been involved, nor heard of this dispute before reading this request. I would appreciate if you would give me some time to go through the dispute before I will proceed with the negotiations. If you have any questions, please ask them below. Zaminamina (talk) 19:52, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Questions for the volunteer
Hungarian people
This listing is being closed for excessive incivility in the listing, which has continued after the warning which was given yesterday. It may be refiled, but will be re-closed if there is one word in the filing or in any response which relates in any way to any other editor's conduct, civility, bias, conflict of interest, or personal attacks. In short, feel free to talk about content, but do not talk about one another. If you have conduct, including puppetry, complaints, take them to sockpuppet investigations, WP:ANI, or WP:RFC/U but do not make or discuss them here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Apple Computer's 1997 Financial Rescue
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Steve Jobs#Apple Computer.2C Inc..27s 1997 Financial Rescue (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Pdunbarny (talk · contribs)
- BashBrannigan (talk · contribs)
- Dream Focus (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The Wikipedia article's statement that "Jobs brought Apple from near bankruptcy to profitability by 1998." is based on the subject's, Steven Paul "Steve" Jobs, own claims ("We [Apple] were 90 days from going bankrupt.") and is not supported by facts other than those referencing the subject's claims thus making the subject the primary source of the statement posed as fact.
In addition the claim has a very high probability of being a false statement based on supporting evidence to the contrary provided in the talk pages linked, including the referenced article and linked US government documents filed by the company, Apple Computer, Inc.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Satisfactory evidence suggesting the article's statement ("Jobs brought Apple from near bankruptcy to profitability by 1998.") relies on the claim under dispute that was made by the subject ("We [Apple] were 90 days from going bankrupt.") that evidence shows it not likely correct, has been provided on the talk page.
Two other registered editors have provided opinions, one supporting the article's statement by questioning the evidence and the other believing there is adequate evidence provided.
How do you think we can help?
If the evidence provided is satisfactory, the statement under dispute should be either:
a) removed from the article, b) amended to make clear that it is a claim made by the subject, c) amended to make clear that it is a claim made by the subject without supporting evidence, or d) amended to make clear that it is a claim made by the subject without supporting evidence and is disputed.
Additional evidence can be provided to conclude the dispute.
Opening comments by BashBrannigan
The argument that Jobs' statement that the company was "90 days from bankruptcy" when he arrived is that the only source is from Jobs himself. I did a quick search and was able to find a New York Times article from March 28, 1996 which discusses Apples grave financial situation, specifically a $700 million loss in it’s second quarter. Here is the link: New York Time 1996/03/28 apple-expects-it-will-lose-700-million.html
From the article: “A former Apple executive, who spoke on the ground that he not be named, said that the company's financial situation was so dire that he believed Apple was likely to be in the hands of its bankers, Citibank and Bank of America, by the end of the year.” As Jobs took over in Dec of 69 this gives independent credence to Jobs “90 days” quote and certainly to the grave situation.
Additionally, in the evidence provided against Apple being near bankruptcy, it appears that the SEC filing is from late 97 and Jobs arrived late 96, so I’m not sure it applies. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:20, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Dream Focus
Someone who understands all the stuff in the SEC report should comment on whether or not Jobs was just lying to exaggerate his own importance, as everyone that knew him said he often did(see his official biography).
I commented on how the current source referenced in the article is "just what Jobs said in an interview. Thus it comes from a primary source. You need to find a better source to keep it there". Can anyone find any evidence to keep that bit in the article? Dream Focus 11:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Apple Computer's 1997 Financial Rescue discussion
Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to read the Guide for participants at the top of this page. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 05:25, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Please do not discuss the dispute prior to a dispute resolution volunteer opening the thread for comments
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OK, everyone has made a statement. Please give me a little time (less than a day) to read all of the talk page history, check all the references, etc, and then I will open this up for discussion. Thanks for your patience. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
List of Power Rangers Megaforce episodes
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Senor Taichi (talk · contribs)
- Ryulong (talk · contribs)
- Favre1fan93 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Article is an episode list of a live action TV show. Content dispute is on the summaries of the first four episodes (or the fifth summary) since Favre1fan93 keeps adding his own version even though this episode has not yet aired.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I removed any futures summaries that may be considered "original research" telling Ryulong to act civilly
How do you think we can help?
Users should respect others and not dismiss every edit they don't agree with as "original research"
Opening comments by Ryulong
Jesus christ the summaries for upcoming episodes are based on TV Guide/Zap2it listings. If anything Senor Taichi is the one who is violating WP:OR by posting this content. Senor Taichi is constantly violating WP:OR by adding content that is not stated outright by the television show, and also violating WP:COPYVIO by copying summaries from TV guide websites (such as Zap2it). He is being told by Favre1fan93 and myself that he is incorrect, and reporting on us here in an attempt to get his way, such as claiming that the addition of a one sentence summary for the fifth episode, which has not yet aired but uses Zap2it as the source, is a violation of WP:OR. At this point he should just be blocked for disruption.
Again, no attempt was made at resolving this on the talk page and Senor Taichi is just trying to slog everything through Wikimedia process for no reason (he was the IP who previously posted here concerning a line that I removed from the page).—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Favre1fan93
Ugh. Okay. So basically everything that Ryulong said is what I would have said here in some extent. As Senor Taichi stated above that we should "not dismiss every edit [we] don't agree with as "original research" ", the only reason he was being dismissed so many times, as Ryulong said, was because his edits were OR. Before his edits, I add added new episode titles that were sourced by Zap2It as well as one future episode summary (more on this in a bit). Senor Taichi went on to change a properly sourced title to one that he could not provide a new, valid source for, saying that his version was right and not OR.
As for the future episode summary, the title source (usually from a press release), can be used as a guideline for the short summary. However, you can not copy word-for-word, as Senor Taichi did, less it be WP:COPYVIO. The summary must express what the episode will be about, with out using the exact words from the source. The official short summary is: "Gia and Emma are turned into enemies by a vicious monster; Beezara captures the boys and turns them into her drone slaves." while the one added is "The Warstar monster Beezara uses her powers to turn Gia and Emma against each other and the boys into her loyal drones." Just a simple sentence or two to say what the episode will be about before a more lengthy summary can be added after it airs. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:17, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
List of Power Rangers Megaforce episodes discussion
View by Nerdfighter
This really shouldn't be on this noticeboard. Adding summaries for shows that have not aired is vandalism. Please warn the user starting at level one, each time he vandalises. If he vandalises past 4 warnings he may be reported to WP:AIV. Thanks. — nerdfighter(academy) 01:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC) Sorry if I got something mixed up.
- I am not so sure you are correct about that Nerd. I will look further, but for now we should not be advising editors that this is indeed vandalism.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- No. Per Wikipedia:Vandalism:"Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page." This is too soon, could be less than accurate and is possibly innapropriate, but it is not vandalism.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- I am not so sure you are correct about that Nerd. I will look further, but for now we should not be advising editors that this is indeed vandalism.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Talk:United States, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States/Defining the United States of America
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:United States (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States/Defining the United States of America (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Mendaliv (talk · contribs)
- Golbez (talk · contribs)
- TheVirginiaHistorian (talk · contribs)
- The Four Deuces (talk · contribs)
- RightCowLeftCoast (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Does the phrase "United States" also refer to territories such as Puerto Rico?
Some editors have argued yes, and that the United States article at present does not reflect this in its lede. Others argue no, or at least that the current article does not exclude the possibility. I have argued that the term is ambiguous and the sides should be equally addressed.
One problem that has come up is sourcing. My sources, admittedly, are legal encyclopedias and thus tertiary sources. One editor in favor of explicit inclusion of territories has provided sources that he argues support that contention, but which I believe either independently support the ambiguity of the term, or are primary sources being used to advance a synthetic position.
Another contention has been the appropriate application of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Without straying into behavioral issues, it has been repeatedly argued that tertiary sources should not be used at all, that certain sources are or are not secondary/scholarly, that primary sources may be used to support the definition, what constitutes OR, what value judgments we may make about the validity of certain sources, and similar.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I got pulled in via a request at WP:EAR, where I volunteer. I came to Talk:United States and engaged in discussion. Upon realizing this issue had wider implications, I called on members of WP:USA to join, and started a discussion to standardize affected articles and to describe the ambiguity rather than attempting to resolve it. I believe the sheer volume of discussion, both prior to and in response to these attempts at resolution, is preventing participation by uninvolved editors.
How do you think we can help?
Keep things on topic and moving, break the deadlock, and move the participants towards hacking out a consensus.
Opening comments by Golbez
My personal stance has been, the incorporated/unincorporated dichotomy has been settled law, and absent a specific statement from Congress, the Executive, or a higher court, that remains how things are done. The U.S. consists of the incorporated territory of the fifty states, federal district, and Palmyra Atoll (so insignificant as to not warrant mention in the introduction).
However, throughout all this my concern has been less about the definition of the country (though I still disagree that we can unilaterally say the territories are now part of the country), and more about what impact that would have on the rest of the article, and other articles. For example, all of the stats in the infobox would have to be changed to accommodate the change in area and population. And all statistics and facts in the article itself would have to be checked: Does this change the population density? The crime rate? Are their unique aspects mentioned in geography and demographics? Furthermore, what impact would this have on Wikipedia at large? Would we have a situation where we are massively inconsistent, with this article reporting one area and other articles reporting another, or other articles talking about Puerto Rico as a possession whereas this one would now talk about it as integrated into the country? Would the articles on incorporated and unincorporated territories be updated to indicate that those terms no longer have meaning? Would the articles on the five territories in question be updated to reflect their "new" status? Has anyone even asked the talk pages of those articles how they feel about this?? Those who are for this change have denied any need to do this, let alone any willingness to perform it. --Golbez (talk) 17:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by TheVirginiaHistorian
The view of a U.S. without territories echoes the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. Editor synthesis of tertiary sources should be replaced by secondary scholarly or government sources as quoted. Contribution to the lead sentence sourced from the last twenty years should be admitted describing the U.S. federal republic as including 50 states, a federal district and five organized territories.
The U.S. is an internationally recognized nation-state with a constitutional tradition upholding basic human rights and self-determination in a federal constitutional republic. Scholar and government secondary sources show the U.S. territories of 2013 are “locally autonomous” with rights and privileges “equivalent to states” in the Union. The U.S.G. reports itself as today including 50 states, a federal district and five organized territories.
The constitutional practice of the U.S. since 1805 develops territory from “possession” with military governor to “unincorporated territory” with appointed governor without citizenship-of-the-soil, to “incorporated territory” of citizens with elected governors. Territories admitted as states in 1910 and 1960, AZ, NM, AK, HI as territories are surpassed in privileges for the five organized U.S. territories 2013: N. Marianas, Guam, Am. Samoa, Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands. As were the territories incorporated before them, they are incorporated in the union of U.S. federal constitutional republic.
There is no secondary source to classify U.S. territories of 2013 as “separate personalities”. WP articles should not source WP. Insular Cases are temporary judicial fiat to administer Spanish regions in 1901. Alaska was held “incorporated” in “Rassmussen”, because congressional intent was manifest with citizenship-of-the-soil, as is the case in all five organized U.S. territories but Samoa. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:21, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by The Four Deuces
There is a dispute about whether "and territories" should be added to the lead which currently says the U.S. "is a federal constitutional republic consisting of fifty states and a federal district." It is settled law from the Insular Cases that unincorporated territories of the United States are not part of the republic. It is the position of the U.S. government and congress that these territories are either separate states in free association with the U.S. or non-self governing territories. They are considered separate personalities under international law with the right to self-determination.["Study of W. Michael Reisman, Myers S. McDougal Professor of International Law, Yale Law School and Robert D. Sloane, Associate Professor of Law, Boston University School of Law", U.S. Congress, 2006, pp. 120, 136, 149ff.[18]] TFD (talk) 13:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by RightCowLeftCoast
My summary of the discussion regarding the proposed changed to the lead can be found in this diff. Although there have been a few rough patches along the way during this discussion, it has been more or less cordial, IMHO. That being said, when editors have strong opinions one way or the other sometimes discussions can become contentious; however, compared to political discussions this discussion is rather mild, IMHO.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Talk:United States, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States/Defining the United States of America discussion
Talk:Medical uses_of_silver
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Ryanspir (talk · contribs)
- Zad68 (talk · contribs)
- Doc James (talk · contribs)
- Alexbrn (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
1) Using quackwatch as a reliable source for a biomedical claim. 2) Using old statement from quackwatch site from 2005 as a source for biomedical claim.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussing on the talk page
How do you think we can help?
By advising editors to follow wp:medrs policy according to which such source fails wp:medrs on two counts: the website which is used as a source is not falling in any category of reliable sources mentioned on wp:medrs, and 2) the source is older than 2-3 or 5 years as specified in medrs.
Opening comments by Zad68
1) Quackwatch has been discussed on RSN several times and has been found useful in alt-med cases where Quackwatch is in line with mainstream scientific consensus, as is true in this case. The trouble with ingested colloidal silver is that it's considered fringe and not investigated by mainstream science, see for example that pretty much nothing relevant to ingesting colloidal silver comes up in a secondary source search of Trip Database. Like NCCAM, Quackwatch is useful for this purpose. 2) As Ryan brings up, the 2005 Quackwatch entry is suboptimal per WP:MEDRS's timeframe of 2-3 maybe 5 years but we can solve that easily, let's just use this other Quackwatch article, last updated January 20, 2013, which states "However, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating people with Lyme disease (or anything else)." Zad68
00:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Doc James
A great deal has been written on Wikipedia about the use of Quackwatch for discussing alt med content. Generally it has been deemed to be okay in some situations decided on a case by case basis on the talk page.Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_32#Usage_of_Quackwatch_as_RS_in_medical_quackery IMO unless a high quality source refutes it than it is okay to use. If one looks for medical review articles in the last 5 years on colloidal silver you find one and it deals with its side effects. So I ask does anyone have any decent evidence that shows benefit from "colloidal silver". We have this review from 2009 that discusses risk [19] and there is definitely some of that. I guess we could replace it with this 2007 review [20] which states "Some health food and nutraceutical manufacturers are promoting ineffective colloidal silver-based products as treatments for major illnesses" but no one is studying CS so one does not really expect recent evidence. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Opening comments by Alexbrn
I have taken the liberty of adding myself here as an involved editor – it was I who recently added the QuackWatch material. So far as I know, QuackWatch has repeatedly been discussed in relation to altmed topics, and is established RS on matters of quackery provided nothing authoritative contradicts it, and that it is used with care and attributed. I don't believe the five-year rule of thumb applies, unless of course there is indication QW's views are outdated or the scientific/medical consensus has changed.
However, since from the above it seems there is more recent content from QuackWatch that can be used, the dating issue can be addressed by using that. Then, would any wind be left in this dispute's sails? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Talk:Medical uses_of_silver discussion
not relevant to discussion
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user:Zad does not appear to exist. Certainly, that user has no contributions so can't be involved in this dispute. There is a Zad68 who appears to have been involved, and I've changed 'users involved' appropriately. Zad68 has been notified. CarrieVS (talk) 22:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC) |
Thanks for commenting, all of you.
As I understand it, the dispute is about whether a particular source is reliable, and there's no disagreement about including the content - I assume this relates to the sentence 'Quackwatch characterizes colloidal silver as "risk without benefit".' - provided the source is agreed to be reliable. Is that right?
I've read the RSN discussion about Quackwatch, and the two Quackwatch articles that have been proposed as sources.
What I understand from the RSN discussion is that there is a consensus that it can be used as a reliable source, but should be judged on a case by case basis. So the question isn't whether Quackwatch is a reliable source, but whether this particular Quackwatch article is a reliable source.
It also seems to me that we have a general consensus that it is, so if any user believes it isn't, I would say it's up to them to provide a convincing argument why that is so. CarrieVS (talk) 12:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Secondary reasoning
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According to:
Quackwatch is considered as provocative and containing of self-published articles. Here I'll provide reliable primary and secondary available sources:
p.s. Here are some more sources: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2013/CS/C2CS35289C - Controlled synthesis of colloidal silver nanoparticles in organic solutions: empirical rules for nucleation engineering . http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn301724z?mi=z48nb4&af=R&pageSize=20&searchText=aging - Formation Mechanism of Colloidal Silver Nanoparticles: Analogies and Differences to the Growth of Gold Nanoparticles. http://iopscience.iop.org/2043-6262/3/4/045007 - Powerful colloidal silver nanoparticles for the prevention of gastrointestinal bacterial infections http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956566312002412 - Robust one pot synthesis of colloidal silver nanoparticles by simple redox method and absorbance recovered sensing
If that is ok with you, there is no need to use quackwatch (or NCCAM for this matter). Ryanspir (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC) As an aside, there's no need to keep adding to the thread on your talk page. I'm watching this page so I'll know when you reply. I only posted my last reply there so that the others would see it.
Another aside: from some of the things you've said, I'm concerned that you might be under the impression that I have a position of authority or would be able to overrule the other editors. That is not the case: volunteers have no special powers or privileges, and we can only try to help you come to an agreement with the other editors. If you're hoping for me to issue some sort of ruling in the face of consensus, we might as well close this now. CarrieVS (talk) 22:03, 27 January 2013 (UTC) |
- I'll change the course of my reasoning per your permission and save the extensive reasoning referencing.
- 1) Right from the opening comments we have got a consensus that the particular article mentioned won't be used because it's too old.
- "So the question isn't whether Quackwatch is a reliable source, but whether this particular Quackwatch article is a reliable source." - Two editors out of three has conceded in their opening comments that this article in question isn't reliable one. Adding me, that is 3 against 1.
- 2) So we won't consider that article anymore, but instead concentrate on the Lyme article which was proposed to be used instead.
Ryanspir (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
(Sorry, I think I edited to fix the collapsing before you'd finished. Hope it didn't confuse you. CarrieVS (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC))
- Not really. :) Ryanspir (talk) 12:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, great start. So, what do you think about the Lyme article: if better sources can't be found, would you agree to use it? CarrieVS (talk) 11:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The relevant quote
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The relevant quote is: "Colloidal Silver
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- The statement in question was: "risk without benefit" (with attribution "Quackwatch characterizes colloidal silver as).
- I chose not to answer to your hyphothetic question because I feel it's asked prematurely. If that's ok.
"Per WP:MEDRS, higher quality, peer-reviewed research is always preferred over the provacative and self-published articles of Quackwatch" and "We must stay mindful when using Quackwatch and similar partisan sites as sources, paying special attention when they are overused by true believers of Quackwatch. ;-)" by -- Levine2112 discuss 02:01 from the RSN discussion.
- I believe this is the case. Per WP:MEDRS FDA advisory is an ideal source and shall be used at this time instead of Quackwatch - which is a really controversial source and considered speculative according to RSN discussion.
- If this reasoning will not suffice I'll be glad to provide further reasoning, but I have just tried to make it as simple as possible and to the point, per wiki policies and the RSN discussion's consensus.
Ryanspir (talk) 13:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, fair enough. What content do you want to put in with that source? Obviously the 'Quackwatch characterises..' line will have to be changed. Could you tell me the wording you want to use? CarrieVS (talk) 13:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Something along the line "Silver has some appropriate medical uses, such as medicines, bandages, and dressings used to treat burns, skin wounds, or skin infections, and as medicines used to prevent the eye condition called conjunctivitis in newborn infants. However, there are no legally marketed prescription or over-the-counter (OTC) drugs containing silver that are taken by mouth." It should made clear that currently Colloidal Silver or any kind of silver is considered as an alternative medicine and cannot have legal claims (not necessarily ineffective) when is ingested by mouth and it should be balanced that currently there is a lot of ongoing research into Silver Nanoparticles for medicinal uses with positive results. Ryanspir (talk) 13:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't agree to QW being replaced (though have no objection to it being augmented). The fact that QW has an opinion on colloidal silver is notable (it's a quack remedy) and needs to be in the article, in my view. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Could you please clarify. Are you saying cs is a quack remedy for all applications including external application for wounds treatment or only in relation to ingestion by mouth? Ryanspir (talk) 10:04, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, here's what I think about that. It's all good information, but it's not appropriate for that section. We're talking about the alternative medicine section, and so far the only alternative medicine use we have in the article is consuming colloidal silver. So the information in that section needs to stick to being about that. You could probably use the FDA source (if you can agree a suitable wording with the other editors) to say that there's no legally-marketed drugs containing silver to be taken by mouth, and/or that it's not legal to market colloidal silver to be taken by mouth with claims that it is effective in treating anything.
- Information about the appropriate, non-alternative uses of silver should go in the relevant sections if it isn't there already, and again, if you can agree on it. CarrieVS (talk) 13:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. However, I would like it to be removed first, as it is already agreed that it fails wp:medrs. Ryanspir (talk) 10:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Can we stick to the current bit of discussion for now. Jumping about all over the thread makes it hard to follow. CarrieVS (talk) 11:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Quackwatch as reliable source for expert opinion relevant to this topic
I saw what I view as a few attempts to cherry-pick individual statements from the RSN archives in an attempt to discredit Quackwatch generally. This needs to be addressed. Here's some support for the use of Quackwatch for exactly the kind of use found in the article, from the RSN archives, a relevant ARBCOM case, and also very reputable medical organizations:
- From RSN archive 32:
- "This question [of whether Quackwatch is a reliable source] has been brought to this noticeboard before at least once, and IIRC the consensus was in general yes, it is a RS about things such as medical fraud, quackery and such (it's not named HealWatch, after all), but that the attribution needs to be explicit."
- "I agree that Quackwatch is generally a RS about alternative medicine, and like all sources each use should be judged on merit."
- "On the other hand, for low-profile, obscure alternative approaches or out-and-out health fraud which are below the horizon of the medical literature, Quackwatch can be a useful source - sometimes, the only useful source."
- From RSN archive 118: "Quackwatch is generally considered reliable for discussion of alt med topics."
- From this arbitration case discussion: "The type of content that Quackwatch has gives it a slant and makes lean toward being a partisan source more than other medical resources, but is not an unreliable source and to characterize it as such is wrong." -- the way Wikipedia articles handles opinionated sources is to attribute in-line, exactly as the article currently does
- This article in the extremely highly-respected Journal of the American Medical Association specifically lists Quackwatch under "SUGGESTED SITES: Following are select sites that provide reliable health information and resources"
- This and this American Cancer Society articles list Quackwatch as a reference they trusted enough to use.
I feel this should put an end to the discussion of whether Quackwatch is generally reliable and useful for the statement under discussion. Zad68
14:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Kindly let me use the very quote Zad has provided: "On the other hand, for low-profile, obscure alternative approaches or out-and-out health fraud which are below the horizon of the medical literature, Quackwatch can be a useful source - sometimes, the only useful source." The above section introduces extensive research being done into cs. I'm referring to provided links with "Colloidal silver nano silver". Search on Google with "colloidal silver nano silver" produces 224,000 results. So that would invalidate that cs is a low profile or obscure alternative approach in my opinion.
- Anyway, I will take a liberty to remove the current reference and the statement from the article per consensus on the second count produced at the opening comments.
- I feel that using the statement from Lyme disease section would be more appropriate on Lyme disease article. But, would anyone decide to reintroduce context from quackwatch based on Lyme or other aricles I'll be making a new RSN.
- I think with that we may close the current RSN.
- p.s. I feel that the reason quackwatch was approved for some alt. med articles is following. Lets assume someone created an article on the testicles of a tiger and it's being used somewhere as an aphrodisiac so he has written about it. Lets assume for the purpose of this example that quackwatch has an article about it and states that its a fraudulent claim. Due to the absence of any credible medical research upon the topic I would agree that in this case it would be appropriate and even useful to use quackwatch. Ryanspir (talk) 09:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I see no consensus for removal. BTW, Google hits is not a reliable indication of anything much. Search for "coffee enema" here gets me 962,000 hits! Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 09:58, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Kindly see the opening comments regarding consensus. You are right, google results by itself don't mean much. Search for "coffee enema" didn't produce any reliable primary sources with positive results nor secondary sources with positive results. Ryanspir (talk) 10:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm taking the comments as a whole, not cherry-picking. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Haven't you agreed to use a new article when you have said: "However, since from the above it seems there is more recent content from QuackWatch that can be used, the dating issue can be addressed by using that." Ryanspir (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I could live with that; that's not the same as agreeing to remove the QW content entirely though (I reverted your edit of a few minutes ago doing this, BTW). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Haven't you agreed to use a new article when you have said: "However, since from the above it seems there is more recent content from QuackWatch that can be used, the dating issue can be addressed by using that." Ryanspir (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm taking the comments as a whole, not cherry-picking. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Kindly see the opening comments regarding consensus. You are right, google results by itself don't mean much. Search for "coffee enema" didn't produce any reliable primary sources with positive results nor secondary sources with positive results. Ryanspir (talk) 10:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I see no consensus for removal. BTW, Google hits is not a reliable indication of anything much. Search for "coffee enema" here gets me 962,000 hits! Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 09:58, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ryanspir, I think you need to understand the distinction between colloidal silver in general and taking colloidal silver by mouth as a treatment for any illness. Let me make an analogy: antibiotics are certainly not low-profile or alternative. But suppose some people were touting antibiotics as a cure/treatment for autism or something. Would that be high-profile and mainstream? Unless any of your sources are about this particular use of colloidal silver, then they don't show that this particular use of the stuff is anything other than a low-profile, obscure alternative approach.
- The upshot of the Lyme disease statement is that there are no studies showing that taking colloidal silver by mouth is an effective treatment for anything, so why shouldn't we use it here?
- If you want, we can close this thread, but consensus is still against you, so you can't go and change the article based on this and expect it not to be reverted, and if you keep trying to change it you will end up getting blocked. I don't want to see that, so I've been trying to help you organise your objection into a clear argument and a clear proposal for what you do want to put in the article, so that you can have one more shot at convincing the other editors. At present, you haven't convinced them, and consensus is still against you. It is up to the person who wants to change consensus to convince others, not up to them to prove that it should stay the same.
- That's a good example of what Quackwatch is a RS for, but not the only example. The consensus in the RSN discussion about Quackwatch was that 'quackery' wasn't restricted to fraudulent claims but included things that are obscure and have no scientific basis, even if their proponents believe in them. I would say, based on everything I've seen, that taking colloidal silver by mouth falls into this category. CarrieVS (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Don't we have a consensus per opening comments that this particular reference shall be removed because it contradicts 2-3 and 5 years frames? Ryanspir (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I believe we had a rough consensus that if it was agreed that the current one should be removed we could use the other one. I'm not sure it went as far as consensus that it should. But let's get that issue out of the way now. Everyone, what do you think about that? Should we replace that reference with the newer article? CarrieVS (talk) 10:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- A rough consensus, but consensus nonetheless. Alex said: "I could live with that"; I certainly agree; Zad has conceded that the current one: "is suboptimal per WP:MEDRS". Ryanspir (talk) 10:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, but I want to wait to hear someone else answer here before we say 'great, let's go ahead and change it'. And if we do decide to change it, it will be taking the old source out and putting the new one in. I think we will also need to alter the sentence, so that should be agreed upon as well (As a starting point, I suggest something like "According to Quackwatch, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating any illness".) CarrieVS (talk) 10:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- To clarify:
- There is absolutely no consensus to remove all references/uses of Quackwatch in the article and leave it like that. It was very disappointing to see Ryan jump the gun and remove it while this DRN conversation over exactly that is still active and unresolved.
- To try to better respect the WP:MEDRS timeframe, there is a proposal to replace the existing article content "Quackwatch characterizes colloidal silver as 'risk without benefit'." sourced to the Quackwatch Colloidal silver article last updated 200
85 with something like "According to Quackwatch, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating any illness." sourced to the Quackwatch Lyme disease article. Note this is just a proposal, we haven't worked out an exact agreement on it. - If we can't come to an agreement on this replacement proposal, there is no agreement or consensus to remove the existing Quackwatch-sourced content, for the reasons Doc James and others have already stated.
- Finally, I really wish Ryan would stop conflating important content ideas (external vs. ingested) and mischaracterizing the statements of the other DRN participants (I didn't 'concede' anything) or the status of any consensus.
Zad68
14:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- To clarify:
- Ok, but I want to wait to hear someone else answer here before we say 'great, let's go ahead and change it'. And if we do decide to change it, it will be taking the old source out and putting the new one in. I think we will also need to alter the sentence, so that should be agreed upon as well (As a starting point, I suggest something like "According to Quackwatch, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating any illness".) CarrieVS (talk) 10:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
We seem to be going over old ground a bit.
This is what we have consensus on:
- We are going to include one of the Quackwatch articles.
- Ingesting colloidal silver is an alternative treatment without scientific evidence of benefit.
The main thing we have to decide on is whether or not to replace the existing content sourced to the older Colloidal Silver Quackwatch article with something sourced to the newer Lyme Disease one. Now,
- without editing the article until and unless we've finished discussing and explicitly agreed to do so,
- without making interpretations of anyone else's comments or claiming we've reached consensus on things other than those listed above,
can you say whether you agree to make the change, or disagree and want to keep the current content and source. Keep arguments and explanations very brief for now; when we have an idea who objects to what, then we can start trying to persuade each other, if we need to. CarrieVS (talk) 17:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agree to the change, although I would not mind if the existing content were to stay as-is either.
Zad68
18:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC) - Agree using wording: "According to Quackwatch, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating any illness." (would also be happy with the status quo) Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 18:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why we need to say "according to Quackwatch". It's an easily verifiable matter of common scientific knowledge, not an opinion held largely or solely by Quackwatch. The U.S. National Institutes of Health says that "scientific evidence does not support the use of colloidal silver to treat any disease." Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center states that "no human clinical data support the use of oral colloidal silver." The FDA writes that it is "not aware of any substantial scientific evidence that supports the use of OTC colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts". I'm concerned that we're misleading the reader if we attribute this view to Quackwatch, when in fact Quackwatch is merely describing the modern scientific consensus about colloidal silver. MastCell Talk 18:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Understood, but: There's a point that it's helpful to the reader to know that ingesting colloidal silver is something commented on by Quackwatch - that's a piece of information that would be missing from the article if we were to use only the other sources without in-line attribution like we do when using Quackwatch generally. The solution is easy, there's no reason the article can't state both.
Zad68
18:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)- Good points. Agree it is useful for the reader to know this is on QW's radar. Strongly agree with suggestion to use both QW sources. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 19:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Understood, but: There's a point that it's helpful to the reader to know that ingesting colloidal silver is something commented on by Quackwatch - that's a piece of information that would be missing from the article if we were to use only the other sources without in-line attribution like we do when using Quackwatch generally. The solution is easy, there's no reason the article can't state both.
- I'm not sure why we need to say "according to Quackwatch". It's an easily verifiable matter of common scientific knowledge, not an opinion held largely or solely by Quackwatch. The U.S. National Institutes of Health says that "scientific evidence does not support the use of colloidal silver to treat any disease." Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center states that "no human clinical data support the use of oral colloidal silver." The FDA writes that it is "not aware of any substantial scientific evidence that supports the use of OTC colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts". I'm concerned that we're misleading the reader if we attribute this view to Quackwatch, when in fact Quackwatch is merely describing the modern scientific consensus about colloidal silver. MastCell Talk 18:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agree with Alex Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Not relevant to discussion.
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I see that Ryan's been blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry -doesn't come as a surprise, but it is a shame as we finally seemed to be making some progress. I assume the rest of you can all agree on what to say and cite and we can wrap this thread up? CarrieVS (talk) 20:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
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There has been some discussion - mainly going over old ground - on my talk page following tha last comment on this thread. No new conclusions were reached. Can we continue the discussion here, please. CarrieVS (talk) 19:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Medical uses of silver and Quackwatch -- are we done?
Are we done? Can this be closed? Zad68
14:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Ryan hasn't responded, or indeed made any contributions, since Wednesday. I'm not going to close it just because one side of the dispute has been away from Wikipedia for two days, since he might just not be able to get online, but I would suggest that, since the rest of you are in agreement, you go on with editing as if it was done. If Ryan has any more to say on the matter I'll either let you guys know or I'll archive this as failed, depending on whether I think there's any point continuing to discuss it - if Ryan's still going over the same ground that's he's already failed to change consensus on for the umpteenth time, there won't be. If it gets to two weeks since it was filed and no-one has said anything for (I think it's 24 hours), it'll be automatically archived. CarrieVS (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
not related to dispute
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De-archived
This case has been de-archived to be closed. There will be no extensive discussion, only agree/disagree statements. There is clearly no consensus, or any likelihood of gaining it, for removing references to Quackwatch.
Proposed compromise: Quackwatch remains in the article, but the newer article (about Lyme Disease) is referenced instead of the older one currently used. The previously proposed wording: "according to Quackwatch, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating any illness" seemed to gain approval.
Please delete agree or disagree as appropriate and sign. If you agree in principle but dislike the suggested wording, choose 'agree' and add a brief comment. If you disagree, add a brief comment stating what you would be prepared to accept. CarrieVS (talk) 16:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- Zad68: Agree although I'm also equally fine with leaving the existing content or adding the Lyme source to the existing. -
Zad68
16:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC) - Jmh649: Agree - Sure either leave it with the old ref or leave it with the new one. Or even leave it with both. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- Alexbrn: Agree/disagree - [signature and timestamp]
- Ryanspir: Agree/disagree - [signature and timestamp]
Francesca Hogi
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
The article's eligibility has been discussed on the AFD page
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Article was nominated for deletion a week ago and was closed today. However, the closure has been disputed by Frietjes (talk · contribs) and I am filing this in case she feels the article is notable. I suspect this user may be Francesca herself trying to keep her own article or an avid Survivor fan trying to keep the article in spite of consensus that the article fails notability standards
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
We redirected the article to a list of all the contestants but we know this user will attempt to reopen the WP:AFD discussion
How do you think we can help?
Explain to this user that not all people are notable enough to have their own articles and that anonymous IP voters are entitled to share their opinion as much as logged in users are
Opening comments by Freitjes
- The AfD was closed as no consensus, so redirecting Francesca Hogi is inappropriate. Frietjes (talk) 20:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- ive reset the nomination in light of he recent war over the article's closure. This is a straight vote
Francesca Hogi discussion
Hi, I'm Carrie, and I'm a DRN volunteer.
*What exactly is the dispute? The AfD was closed as no consensus, so the article hasn't been and shouldn't be deleted. CarrieVS (talk) 21:46, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
My mistake, I didn't examine the article history.
The AfD was closed as no consensus - the previous closures did not meet the criteria in WP:Non-admin closure#Appropriate closures, so the final closure by an administrator should stand - so the article should not be redireced unless a future discussion results in a consensus to do so (the closing comments included a suggestion that the article be relisted in a month's time, so if you still feel it should be redirected, I suggest you wait and do that). CarrieVS (talk) 21:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)