Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Partisan group self published source Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia

The article [1] has a lot of citations from a single partisan self published source which reflects only a fringe standpoint of history. Many of the names of the graves mentioned are not even verified , here is the source:

http://www.al-islam.org/history-shrines/history-cemetery-jannat-al-baqi

It looks more like a blog presenting personal opinions on a matter and that too by a fringe group which accuses a Jewish conspiracy in the destruction.

Hence proof of the graves from reliable independent, non sectarian sources should be added. Relevant tag: WP:BIASED,WP:FTN (fringe theory).

partisan base self published source

in article Mufaddal Saifuddin

However, Muffadal Saifuddin's succession has not been accepted by Khuzaima Qutbuddin, who claimed the title of the 53rd Dai of the Dawoodi Bohras Himself.[10] Khuzaima Qutbuddin claims that Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin performed nass on him 49 years ago, a ritual during which he appointed him as his successor in private, just before he was publically appointed as Mazoon, second-in-command in Bohras hierarchy.[11] After the death of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin he claims that the succession was not done in London as Mohammad Burhanuddin suffered from a full stroke at the age of 100, that made it difficult for him to write, speak, or move.[1] Khuzaima Qutbuddin explains that he never claimed to be the rightfull successor, as per Mohammed Burhanuddin's instruction to keep it secret.[12][13] It is further claimed that former CJI upheld the validity of Khuzaima Qutbuddin as the rightful successor.

Dispute as to who Sheb Wooleys Children

Sheb Wooleys Wikipedia says that he had two daughters ; when in fact he had ONE LEGALLY ADOPTED daughter Christi Lynn Wooley who was his ONLY CHILD and a step daughter ( never legally adopted) Shauna Dotson . Wikipedia states that Sheb had two daughters ; when in fact he had one legal daughter and one step daughter

Earth Mag article (op-ed?)

Article: List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Ref: Steven Newton (2012-04-30). "Voices: Defending science: The link between creationism and climate change". EARTH Magazine. Retrieved 2014-04-20.

Article content: "Interest in such scientists has been increased by attempts to compile lists of dissenting scientists, including a minority report to the US Senate by Marc Morano, another by Arthur B. Robinson, which is often known as the Oregon Petition, and another by the Heartland Institute, all three of which have been criticized on a number of grounds."

Discussion: Here, consisting of a few comments beginning at 18:16, 25 April 2014

The reference is a proposed addition to the end of the content quoted above, specifically criticism of the Oregon Petition. The relevant info from the reference is:

"Having failed to convince the scientific community of the credibility of their views, both creationists and climate change deniers have taken their case to the public in a way that distorts and misrepresents the nature of science."

"Take petitions, for example. Creationists maintain a “Dissent from Darwin” list of several hundred Ph.D.s who have signed a statement encouraging “careful examination of the evidence” for what is vaguely termed “Darwinian theory”; climate change deniers have the so-called Oregon Petition, with more than 31,000 signers endorsing a statement denying that there is any “convincing evidence” that the human release of greenhouse gases will cause “catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.”"

"Such petitions convey the misleading impression that science is a popularity contest. Whether evolution and climate change are good science is, ultimately, a matter of evidence, not of who can amass more signatures. But that’s not the way deniers portray it."

The author is Steve Newton of NCSE(NCSE profile)

The concern is that the reference is an op-ed, and may fail WP:NEWSBLOG or otherwise not be reliable in this context. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Nope, the concern is that the reference simply isn't needed, and that you haven't made an argument as to why it should be used. There are already references for the sentence that you reference above in the article, and there is consensus that it shouldn't be used. Another concern is that you simply want it in the article because you want to couple "climate scepticism" with "evolution denial", which is a WP:BLP concern - not a reliable source one. --Kim D. Petersen 01:55, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, RS is not the crux of the issue. Only one editor in a very, very extended conversation has brought up this op-ed as a Reliable Source issue. This is not the proper forum for this content discussion. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I was planning on taking this to NPOVN next. As I pointed out, I want to be sure we have this resolved first. --Ronz (talk) 02:59, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

It's moot. There are already six refs for that section's language. There is no apparent support and considerable resistance to this proposed edit, regardless of RS issues. What could be seen as forum shopping isn't a solution. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Please leave this discussion to those who want to address the concerns here. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 00:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

This ref is titled "comment" on the site. It is an opinion piece or column. It is reliable for the opinion of the author. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Ordinarily, one should be wary of using opinion pieces in BLP articles. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, those are the concerns. Any thoughts on the specific publication, the author, the author's affiliations, or the reliability of the quoted information? --Ronz (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

My take: The publication itself is generally a reliable for such information. While it is an op-ed, the author is speaking directly for NCSE, which is generally a reliable source for such information. Overall, I can't imagine how this couldn't be considered reliable. --Ronz (talk) 16:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Since there is no description (byline etc) of him speaking directly for the NSCE your take is incorrect. The piece is signed "Steven Newton" and does not in any way describe who Steven Newton is or why he would speak directly for the NSCE, thus it is entirely an inferrence on your part. Had it been an NSCE piece, then it would be signed with NCSE or had Newtons credentials attached to show that he was speaking in this aspect. --Kim D. Petersen 07:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Given that NSCE highlighted the article (as already pointed out on the talk page), and he is clearly speaking for NSCE:

What do creationists and climate change deniers have in common? Over the past few years, this riddle has been on our minds a lot at the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit that has fought for more than a quarter-century to defend the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Now, we’re expanding to defend the teaching of climate change — and with it, science in general.

I think we're safe. --Ronz (talk) 18:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this author speaking for National Center for Science Education?

Given that he says he is, that he works for NCSE, and that NCSE highlighted the article in question, I'd say that he is indeed speaking for NCSE rather than just himself. --Ronz (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Youtube video on official channel?

Connecticut Public Television did a video article on Slater Memorial Museum. Their official website links to the article on their official YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcNQZtp2rSk). YouTube is not normally considered a reliable source so I am unsure if I can use it for stating how part of the museum's collection was acquired by Slater on his "Grand Tour" around the world via ship. If I cannot use it as a reliable source, is it permissible to use the YouTube link in the external links section? 71.234.215.133 (talk) 12:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The usual problems are not an issue here since being a official channel removes the usual copyright concerns (the main issue with most Youtube videos). The only real issue I can see would be whether or not Connecticut Public Television is a reliable source for this fact and that is something I have no idea about.--67.70.140.89 (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It is unlikely that anything of note seen on YouTube could not be found on a reliable source, this would avoid using possibly unreliable videos as a source it just means a little more digging around for the facts. MilborneOne (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

YouTube is "not normally considered a reliable source" because most of its videos are independently user-generated and/or copyright violations. YouTube is a publication method so the reliability of the videos therein depend on the reputation of the publishers. In this case, a video professionally produced by CPT is as reliable on YouTube as it would be seen on-air in a broadcast. There is no difference made by the media or method of broadcast on its reliability. Elizium23 (talk) 17:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Academic Questions

Is Academic Questions, a publication of the right-wing think tank National Association of Scholars, a reliable source? Its Wikipedia article claims it's peer-reviewed, but I don't see even the journal itself claiming to be peer-reviewed, let alone an independent source confirming it; even if it does make that claim, it comes from an obviously agenda-based source rather than a scholarly or professional organization with a respect and reputation for accuracy, and has been described as an opinion journal rather than a scholarly one.

The WP article in question is Academic bias, where several citations to AQ are being used to claim liberal bias in academia. A similar problem exists with Issues in Law and Medicine, which is harder to find data on but which also appears to come from an opinion-based think tank. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The sources in Academic Questions and Issues in Law and Medicine have been cited in peer review journals. The Huffington Post, The Nation and the Weekly Standard all have their own agendas, and yet are cited as reliable sources in Wikipedia. The description given by Rocelese reflects her own bias.--TMD (talk) 21:43, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The use of the term "Right-wing" is pejorative and not really descriptive of the National Association of Scholars. The admit to be politically conservative but this is no tea party group. That seems to speak to the bias of Roscelese. The real question is that is this a reliable source and regardless of whether it is peer-reviewed or not, there is no evidence that it is a unreliable source. Since Roscelese is making the claim that it is, it seems to me that Roscelese has the responsibility of showing why it is more unreliable than many of the other sources used in Wikipedia. CaptainCS (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The last time I checked, HuffPo etc. weren't lobbying groups. Having a bias and still having a basic reputation for accuracy isn't the same thing as existing to promote a particular bias and having no such reputation for accuracy. FYI, we don't operate to the standard of "it's reliable unless you can prove otherwise"; otherwise, every other personal website and blog out there would be considered reliable. Make the case for its reliability, without resorting to personal attacks, strawmen, and other fallacies. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:45, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Huff post may not do any lobbying but what about A. Huffington herself? She runs the organization behind Huff post. Are you saying that she does no lobbying whatsoever? Is this the standard you want to set up? I am not even sure if National Association of Scholars does any lobbying but we are talking about Academic Questions not the organization behind the journal. Heck, even academic organizations like American Sociological Association do some lobbying from time to time but that does not stop us from using American Sociological Review articles. Sorry but this logic does not hold up unless we are going to apply this lobbying rule to everybody and not simply the journals and organizations you do not seem to like. CaptainCS (talk) 01:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

"What about X?" is not really a very compelling argument. But, no, I don't consider the Huffington Post to be a reliable source, as it reports on Bigfoot sightings, and its other stories are not much different from the Daily Mail. See the above debate on tabloids for further discussion. I don't see what any of that has to do with this journal, however. As far as agendas go, that's essentially a non-issue; biased sources are explicitly allowed. I don't know that it's due to highlight the opinions of this group if the journal is not peer-reviewed, but that can be solved via an RfC. Bickering about each others' biases certainly isn't going to help anything. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: [2] lists the journal in question as "peer-reviewed". [3] ditto. And a host of other lists of peer-reviewed journals. Springer is generally considered an RS publisher of such journals. It is not up to us to question what reliable source clearly state - in this case that the journal is, indeed, refereed and peer-reviewed. Collect (talk) 12:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

• I do find it intriguing that the journal webpage doesn't contain the assertion that the journal is peer-reviewed. It's also instructive to look at an actual article: this doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that would be the result of peer review. At best, these things are probably best considered equivalent to op-eds -- thus perhaps useful for noting the opinions of the authors, but not for statements of fact. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

You are correct in that bickering gets us nowhere. I made the comparison to Huff Post to show how unrealistic the new criteria was. But to provide positive evidence of AQ here are a few links to academic citations of articles written in AQ. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=12779448875812919896&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en, http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=10722867667352071428&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en, and http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=5036649046675304332&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en. I know from my readings that many of the citations are treated as studies within literature reviews. Whether AQ is officially peer reviewed or not it appears that academics take the work in it seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainCS (talk • contribs)

I've tried to check some of these - the first I found only cited the AQ article to severly criticise it [4], the second actually was not even citing AQ, but an article by Jürgen Habermas with the same title [5]. That does not give me much faith in the power of these links to support the quality of AQ. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

But whether it's peer reviewed does make a big difference in how *we* can use it. It's obvious to me that their articles are extended opinion pieces. If that's wrong -- if it can be shown that there is in fact a process of peer review -- then we wouldn't to treat it as a source that merely offers people a platform for expressing opinions. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and it's definitely being used as though it were a real source and not an op-ed. Check out the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you want to get Academic Questions disqualified, then you will need to show that it is less reliable than the sources that get cited, such as Huffington Post. If HuffPo is legitimate, how much more so with this one?--TMD (talk) 16:55, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It always depends on what a source is used for. The HuffPo is ok for attributed opinions and movie reviews, not for science articles. I'd tend to go with Nomoskedasticity to not use AQ for questions of fact, but only for attributed opinion (and then only if the opinion is notable). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:50, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

There are some opinion pieces in AQ and some research in it. The research has been treated by scholars, as I have shown above, as viable work worthy of attention by scholars. Researchers have tested the results of some of this research in attempts to support or refute this work. I have more confidence in AQ than in Huff Post and some of the other sources used in Wikipedia. Unless there is evidence to the contrary we should treat it as a source and each article should be evaluated for whether it is an opinion piece or new research to be treated accordingly. CaptainCS (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

uninvolved views?

So far, the only people responding above (apart from me) are already involved with the article. I'd like to invite other uninvolved views in this section. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Um -- last I checked, I have been uninvolved here - or else I am chopped liver <g>. The source is peer reviewed pre RS sources stating that it is peer-reviewed, and any further argumentation is of nil value here. Collect (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2014 (UTC)b

Uninvolved editor here... We can't answer the generic question "Is X a reliable source". There is no such thing as a 100% unreliable source... and no such thing as a 100% reliable source. Reliability depends on the specific context in which the source is being cited. What we can answer is the more specific question: "Is X a reliable source when used in context Y"... so, please reformulate the question to give us that context. Blueboar (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Just in case that's not clear enough, what you need to do is to say, "Here is the exact statement that I want to put in this exact section of this exact article, and here is the exact source (specific article, not just the journal in general) that I want to cite". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:31, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? I'm not an involved editor. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If used (and we do need to know what specific purpose we are talking about to decide the 'if') I agree that it should only be used to state the opinions of specific named authors and not for statements of fact. Dougweller (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It's used for a number of claims of fact, attributed to an author as though a research study. "George Yancey’s research is particularly notable since he finds that academics in a variety of disciplines are open to discriminating against fundamentalists, evangelicals and to a lesser extent Republicans." "However, social conservative academics were found to work in lower status academic institutions relative to their professional achievements. Yancey also argues that the label of Republican or Christian may not be enough to trigger bias but those seen as strongly conservative in their political ideology or religious theology may garner discrimination and prejudice.[17] Furthermore, evidence of academic bias appears to be stronger in the social sciences and humanities than in the natural sciences.[6][14] Such findings indicate that if academic bias exists then it does so within a given cultural context." "On the other hand, the willingness of academics to discriminate against colleagues indicate little appetite for such discrimination unless the target is religiously or politically conservative." (this last in particular is obvious original synthesis aimed at discrediting a source which talks about bias based on race, sex.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• This is a partisan journal from a partisan think-tank. It may perhaps be useful to illustrate a partisan viewpoint on a topic, with proper attribution (per WP:RSOPINION). It is a not suitable source for statements of fact presented in Wikipedia's voice. And the excerpts cited by Roscelese immediately above are clearly inappropriate, as they are evidently editorial attempts to persuade rather than neutral encyclopedic writing. MastCell ^Talk 23:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Well... to play devil's advocate, being partisan does not necessarily make a source unreliable... after all, highly respected science journals tend to be fairly "partisan" when it comes to the topic of, say, creationism. However, I would agree that material taken from this source should probably be phrased as opinion and attributed. Blueboar (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, reputable science journals are generally silent on creationism, for the simple reason that it's not science. Insofar as science journals speak to the political topic of teaching creationism in public schools, they do so in the setting of editorial/opinion pieces and should be clearly attributed as such. Academic Questions is not a scientific journal; it deals with political topics and does so from a clear partisan standpoint. I didn't say it was categorically "unreliable". I agree with you that it is potentially useable in limited circumstances when properly attributed as opinion, per WP:RSOPINION. MastCell ^Talk 03:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems troublesome to me that there is a painting of a broad brush. As I pointed out above there is a mix of opinion pieces and research in Academic Questions. The links I pointed to above indicate that many scholars take the research in it seriously enough to interact with AQ in their work. It seems to me that we should be more careful to look at particular articles than to make this attempt to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In fact in a haste to judge I notice in Roscelese's comment a conflation of an article in AQ with a citation of a book from an academic press. These are the type of mistakes that are made when we paint with too broad a brush. CaptainCS (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Reference spamming of alternative internet archives

The spamming of alternative internet archives seems to be a growing problem that is easily overlooked. It certainly took me some time to figure out what was going with articlescache.org. We've two recent reports of similar problems (onreference.com and another with multiple domains) and in the latter I wondered if we should cover this in a guideline or essay. The term "archive" is so common that I'm having trouble finding past discussions... Thoughts? --Ronz (talk) 18:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you worried that these archives might not be honestly representing what they've archived? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm worried that editors are confused by them, rather than immediately deleting them and warning the persons adding them. --Ronz (talk) 23:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

So, I'm thinking that we either recommend specific archives, or just that we only use archives with a history and reputation for accurately archiving internet pages. --Ronz (talk) 16:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Using Yahoo Voices as a source

Hello all,

SOURCE: Woroniecki Family in Times Square

ARTICLE: Michael Peter Woroniecki .

CONTENT:

In November 2010, according to the article Woroniecki Family in Times Square on Associated Content.com, the Woroniecki family ministered in Times Square, New York City, handing out free music CDs and promoting their website ‘ifanyoneisthirsty.com’. The author writes that the thrust of their message “was that Jesus is alive and that we need to actively seek him out”, adding that despite any controversy, the family seemed to him to be genuine in their efforts to “go all over the world and celebrate life and the living Jesus.”

I was recently told by a Wiki contributor, also editing that article, that blogs or self published articles are never to be used as sources, especially in BLPs, unless they are written by the subject of the BLP. And, having read the appropriate Wikipedia guidelines, I see that is how they lean. However, I also read that "some sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y".

IMHO, this source is reliable for the content it was supporting in that it was being used to simply verify that Woroniecki was in New York in 2010 and the author's take on Woroniecki's family and message after his encounter with them. Since the content is under "Current" and the source is not being used to prove/disprove or verify/dispute any controversial or negative/positive statements, beliefs or suppositions and does not contradict any previous statements or sources or make any other claims about Woroniecki that have not been previously stated and sourced, I believe this is a case in which Yahoo Voices may be used as a source. I think, since this is a BLP, this paragraph is helpful in keeping the article from being outdated and irrelevant.

I would appreciate clarification on this issue from any Wikipedia Administrators, especially those experienced in the writing and editing of BLPs.

Thank you!

JesHelpin (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Per our policy on biographies of living persons: "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person." Anyone can go to Yahoo Voices (as they could have gone to Associated Content and given their "take on Woroniecki's family and message", whatever their "take" may be. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I concur. Yahoo Voices probably falls in with other contributor sites such as About.com which is not regarded as RS. Betty Logan (talk) 01:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_158#Yahoo_Contributor.27s_Network Not a RS in my book. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, sometimes I'm unsure when it comes to using About.com as a source on Wikipedia, which is why I use it occasionally on Wikipedia and only on a case-by-case basis. If you look at past Wikipedia:Reliable sources noticeboard discussions about it, you will see that the general reception to it is that it's not a reliable source, except for in the case of some of its experts. For example, in this 2012 discussion, WhatamIdoing stated, "To be more precise, About.com itself is not reliable, but the individual authors fairly often qualify for expert status (see WP:SPS) and are thus reliable sources no matter where they publish. That's why we say that 'source' has three meanings on Wikipedia (author, publication, and publisher). Only one of the three needs to be acceptable. In this case, the overall publication (About.com's website) is unreliable, but some of the authors are." And in this 2013 discussion, David Eppstein stated, "Past discussions of about.com have been mixed, and (from my reading) seem to indicate that the result depends strongly on whether there is some other reason for viewing the author of an article there as an expert on the subject (much like WP:SPS). See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 16#Huffington Post, Gawker and About.com, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 22#About.com, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 27#About.com. (I looked these up for a discussion in Talk:Tartine that also involves reliability of an about.com source.)"

So maybe the same can be stated of Yahoo! Voices? I stay away from using Yahoo! Voices as a source on Wikipedia, however, and I know that when it was going by the name "Associated Content," it was routinely removed from Wikipedia articles as unreliable. And, as indicated by SummerPhD above, Wikipedia takes WP:BLPs (biographies of living persons) very seriously. Flyer22 (talk) 02:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and discussion. But my reason for posting was not to debate Yahoo! Voices as a whole being a RS. I am specifically asking about it being a credible source for the content listed above. I agree that Voices would not and should not be used to find and source medical, scientific, historical or legal issues and content. But Wiki guidelines clearly state that some sources, that might not be acceptable for certain content, are viable for other content WP:RS. Since the material that Voices was being used as a source for is social/religious/location in content and is being used to verify Woroniecki's appearance in New York in 2010, and the author of the Yahoo article is a New York resident, who has contributed for seven years on a wide variety of topics and won numerous Yahoo awards, I believe that it's use conforms to Wiki guidelines. We are not talking about needing an "expert" opinion here, just a reliable, third party, to say that he saw Woroniecki a certain place at a certain time and what Woroniecki was preaching at that time. Looking at the authors bulk of work, views and variety of topics, he is qualified to do that, and only that. It is not "contentious", "libel" or "damaging" to the subject of the BLP WP:BLPs and does serve a purpose in keeping the article current. Yahoo! Voices is no longer a "self-published source" since articles must be submitted for publication and can neither be self-serving advertisements or targeted rants. I have a feeling that, with a media world that is being driven more and more towards all online, freelance publishing, this won't be the last time we have to address Yahoo! Voices and define it's uses. I would appreciate it if any Admins who have written/edited BLPs could weigh in on this. JesHelpin (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing to indicate that this author is a "reliable, third party". It is someone with no editorial oversight publishing on a site that does not have a "reputation for fact checking and accuracy" WP:RS. - SummerPhD (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If any random person can write on Yahoo Voices, then it's not a reliable source. Sairp (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

albumlinernotes.com

Is www.albumlinernotes.com considered a WP:RS? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it would be necessary to link to the website itself. If you're looking for a particular booklet or liner notes there, just type them down and when in the Wikipedia article, just support the content added with Template:Cite AV album notes. prism^△ 16:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

But, if the website is not a RS, then it should not be used to support any material in any Wikipedia article. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

But if it just contains scans of album booklets (and after verifiying that they are the real booklets) they can be used. For example I could do what I advised you to do in the last comment by scanning a booklet and uploading its photos to some image-hosting website, like Tinypic. But I wouldn't be using Tinypic, if you understand me... prism^△ 17:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay; I think I see what you mean, but the liner notes that I am trying to source (Pet Sounds 1993 CD version) are not scanned at the website, they have been transcribed, and the website must be a WP:RS in order for me to cite to its transcriptions. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Gotcha... I've tried to find the booklet on Discogs however there are no scans of it (the 1993 version, both Japanese and American), just a scan of the CD which says where it was remastered. If that helps, though, click this. (Discogs is considered an RS, as it is used on the FA 4 (Beyoncé album). prism^△ 17:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

What? Discogs is certainly not a reliable source. It's user-generated. From their "about us" page: The heart of Discogs is a user-built database of music. More than 191,000 people have contributed some piece of knowledge, to build up a catalog of more than 4,900,000 recordings and 3,300,000 artists. We're far from done and you can contribute too! Discogs also offers the ability to catalog your music collection, wantlist, and share your ratings and reviews. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

So, is it acceptable to cite www.albumlinernotes.com? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's just some guy's self-published website. I've got no reason to doubt the website's veracity, but I don't think it would count as reliable. I guess I'd treat it like any other user-generated database: a good place to start research but not a resource that I would cite as a reference. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It appears to be a large collection of copyrighted material. Therefore, linking in any way to this site would fall under WP:LINKVIO policy. I would say this cannot be used or linked under any circumstance. Elizium23 (talk) 17:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought about that, but my research (which consists of a few lazy Google searches) does not indicate that this is an actual concern. Basically, liner notes are credits, and the RIAA has been pushing for more visibility of liner notes. I found a few stories (which I am too lazy to link; ask and I'll find them again) that the RIAA was trying to find a way to link MP3 files and liner notes together. This relieved my fears that liner notes are something to be hidden away and protected. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Is Voice of Russia article reliable for quotations attributed to PM?

Is this article Nuland's cookies as illustration of West's 'policy of non-interference' in Ukraine reliable for the following statement?

In December 2013, Russian Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev criticised her(Nuland's) support for Ukraine's Euromaidan anti-government protests as interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although since I don't know what article you are talking about, it's harder to say whether the information is relevant. Voice of Russia should be taken with caution as a source, but it is going to be reliable for attributed comments like this. Formerip (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Section blanking[6][7] at the Victoria Nuland article. This revert claimed that "VoR is not reliable" as part of its basis for removing the aforementioned text.

There are related threads

1. Talk:Victoria_Nuland#BLP_restart
2. Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Victoria_Nuland_and_Robert_Kagan
   --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Surely there would be a better source for this than a probably-biased state broadcasting agency. Nick-D (talk) 10:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Conversely, if they are closely associated with the state, maybe that is the reason they are the main news agency that Medvedev talks to, making them the only news media source to publish the quoted statements.

Here is another source, for example, that reports a broader criticism of a similar nature related to Russia and US funding of NGO's vis-a-vis interference in the internal affairs (of a sovereign state). The article only refers to a post on the Russian Foreign Ministry website, however.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Saturday posted a statement on its website slamming the US State Department’s stated intent to continue funding non-governmental organizations in Russia as “interfering.”
“We view the declaration made by the official representative of the State Department, Victoria Nuland, that the United States will continue financing individual NGOs within Russia via intermediaries in third countries, bypassing Russian law, as open interference in our internal affairs” the statement reads.[8]

but no direct quote of Medvedev. For article purposes, that would suffice, but the dismissal of VoR for the Medvedev quote seems inappropriate vis-a-vis policy.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:32, 20 May 2014, 07:28, 21 May 2014‎ (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Ubikwit, I'm a little concerned that you've posted to two noticeboards regarding this matter. It reads as if you're trying to hedge your bets. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I suggest you re-read the threads then, as this regards the dismissal of a single source and the attribution of a statement by a prime minister. The other thread is encompasses a much broader scope, and does not even address this issue.

If you have any input regarding the assertion specific assertion made in an edit summary that "VoR", that would be welcome and productive. The matters addressed on the other thread Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Victoria_Nuland_and_Robert_Kagan have pretty much already been resolved. This thread is still alive with respect to the possibility of restoring the quote (or an approximation thereof) to the Nuland article.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 08:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

As always, use of the source is what is important -- the use in a BLP makes an implicit claim about Nuland for which Voice of Russia is ill-suited. It states as a "fact" that she "supported anti-government protests" and ascribes this as a fact stated by a person. This is a stretch - it might work in an article about the Ukraine protests (not ascribing any impropriety to Nuland as a living person), but it is a weak source for that claim in a BLP. The most we could do is say "Medvedev said 'she supported anti-government protests'" but the wording presented goes a step too far in assertions about the living person. Collect (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Collect, for expressing my concerns so succinctly. I am fully aware of the overall issues at stake here, and am seeing this as an endgame. That which can be considered to be acceptable in a particular article does not automatically establish some form of carte blanche for use in other articles/contexts (particularly when we are dealing with a BLP). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

While I don't necessarily mind your bringing up BLP i this context, the original dismissal of the text was no made with recourse to BLP. As stated by FormerIP above, the source is deemed reliable for the attributed statement.

I don't really get the allusions to an "end game" here, but this is of course related to the Ukraine crisis, just from another angle not involving the interception phone conversation. This relates to Nuland's actual presence on the scene supporting activists, etc.

If the basis for dismissing VoR because it has close ties to the state were valid, that would mean that Wikipedia doesn't quote any statements by Russian officials, including the PM, in this case. That obviously is not a desirable scenario, and that is why this problems relating to this specific source were brought here. Note that there is no OR related assertions or anything else, just that "VoR isn't reliable".

@Collect:Your pronouncements about the actual text are somewhat vague and not much help, "the wording presented goes a step too far in assertions about the living person". The source fully attributes Mededev's comment criticizing her support of the anti-government protests as interence in the affairs of a sovereign state. It is an attributed quote.

Do you disagree with the facticity of the attributed statement? Medvedev makes clear assertions, and I don't think that anyone rejects the validity of the assertions. Or do You? Do you reject that "Nuland supported anti-government protesters" and handed out cookies to protesters? That is easily corroborated, with video to boot, I believe.

In December 2013, Russian Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev criticised her(Nuland's) support for Ukraine's Euromaidan anti-government protests as interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

It seems like a very straightforward and brief statement of a widely held view in Russia, but coming from the prime minister affords it much more weight than normal, I would think. And again, you address the source as being VoR, but this is a statement entirely atributed to the Russian Prime Minister Medvedev. You state

the use in a BLP makes an implicit claim about Nuland for which Voice of Russia is ill-suited

but don't give any rationale as to why VoR is ill suited. And then there are the phone conversations, which have been stabilized on the article by removing OP-problematized points. There is nothing in the article that would vaguely challenge or undermine Medvedev's assertions, so it only seems to me that some people object to Medvedev's characterization of her activities as "interference in the affairs of a sovereign state". That is the official US line (that the USA was not interfering in the internal affairs of another state), of course, but Medvedev and Putin obviously don't agree with that, and I've read many analysis and opinion pieces in American publications that also say the same thing. So the attempt to exclude the published statements of the Russian PM would seem to lie in the fact that some people find them to represent a politically inconvenient truth, while making recourse to a specious claim that VoR is not reliable.

Accordingly, I can't see any justification for not using the text as is, but would like to discuss this further and look forward to you responses.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 02:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

This board is for answering questions -- when one gets an answer one does not like, it is a waste of time using this board -- it is like saying "I want your opinion if and only if it is exactly the same as my own" which does not work. The wording you seek states as a fact in Wikipedia's voice that she "supported anti-government protests" and we can not do that on the basis of a Voice of Russia article. As for your ad hom that this is a specious claim that VoR is not reliable I would note that ArbCom has noted your specific battleground use of Wikipedia in the past. I would urgently suggest that using a noticeboard such as WP:RS/N for such behaviour is not impressing anyone at all. Again -- if you only accept agreement with your position, then you will end up with no one on your side in any issue. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I do not think that you answered the question in terms of policy, just offered some unclear ruminations based on your unclear interpretation. And just now you asserted that the material "states as a fact in Wikipedia's voice that she supported anti-government protests", which of course is not case, because the comment is fully attributed to the Russian PM Medvedev by the source. An attributed statement does not "state as fact in Wikipedia's voice", but you should know that.

Second, you seem to have overlooked the first response on this thread here, which maintained the exact opposite position that you have been insisting on without convincing argument. In counties where there is only state controlled media, for example, the statements included in such publication represent some of the only material available. So, as per FormerIP,

Voice of Russia should be taken with caution as a source, but it is going to be reliable for attributed comments like this

The blanket dismissal of it on the basis of its being closely associated with the state is disputed, and you are making assertions without grounds rather than attempting to support a position in discussion, which is pointy, and detracts from the discussion rather than promote it. In other words, above you seem to assert that your own arbitrary pronouncements constititute an authoritative answer to the question posed by this posting, when that is patently false, not to mention tendentious.

Thirdly, regarding the overall content dispute that you continually introduce here, I have posted several sources below that maintain Nuland "supported anti-government protesters", but that is not the issue for this notice board, the issue is whether a the VoR article in question is reliable for the statement attributed to a public figure, the prime minister of Russia. Aside from Nuland, who is also a public figure, Angela Merkel and Herman Van Rompuy--also public figures. Why would we want to exclude the comments attributed to yet another high-ranking state official, a prime minister, in relation to the issues addressed in the article? --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:59, 12:36, 21:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Neat -- you appear not to have read what I wrote, or at least not noticed that your form of argumentation here is ill-suited to this noticeboard. I would note that the wording of any claim about a living person is absolutely pertinent as to how any source is used -- you can not claim (effectively) "the part of the claim which is sourced is only the part about the Russian official" when the use of any claim about a living person in Wikipedia's voice must conform to WP:BLP. This is not my edict or personal opinion - it is policy. The statement by a Russian official can be given in quotes (as I noted in the other discussion), but the claim about the living person can not be used in Wikipedia's voice. Quotes != Wikipedia's voice. Cheers. Now I gently suggest you consider the possibility of a WP:BOOMERANG heading your way for ad homs on a noticeboard where such attacks are banned. Collect (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

He's also ranting about this at an unrelated AN/I request [9], basically trying to free ride on somebody else's request in order to get his kicks in. I'm getting really sick of this WP:FORUMSHOPPING.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Corroborating sources:

1. She made clear the United States supported the protesters’ fight
   "The insinuation that the United States incited the people of Ukraine to riot or rebel is patently false," said Nicole Thompson, a State Department spokeswoman.
2. Western Diplomats Are Going to Disappoint Ukraine’s Protesters, Time Magazine, Deceber 13, 2013

   The hand of U.S. diplomacy swept down over Ukraine this week with an odd bit of American largesse — a plastic bag of bread. Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, bore the bag on Wednesday into the crowd of protesters camped out in the middle of the capital, Kiev. As her circle of bodyguards parted, Nuland held it out to an elderly demonstrator in a big blue parka. “Good to see you!” the diplomat chirped. “We’re here from America. Would you like some bread?” Smiling politely, the woman demurred, took a step backward and waved the generosity away.

3. [10]
4. video
5. first encounter with this site--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 03:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the reliability of the source (it's not reliable), this is the kind of inane stuff that does not belong in a BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

2002 Gujarat riots

I want someone to edit the page 2002 Gujarat riots backed by these references : [11] [12] [13] [14] , [15] and these [16], [17] [18] [19][20]from reliable reputed Indian Media websites India Today The Times of India The Indian Express Hindustan Times Deccan Herald

These references are not part of this article right now.

The section Criminal Prosecution and Attack on Hindus needs overhaul 112.79.39.94 (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment; This editor has clearly got some axe to grind. The IP appeared out of nowhere to report myself and another editor to ANI, thus indicating that it is an old user who does not wish to disclose their identity. At ANI they were told this was a content dispute, and asked to come here. What they neglect to mention is that the information they wish to put in is already in the article, sourced to excellent academic sources. The IP continues to insist that "reputed Indian media" are better sources than academia, which is directly contradictory to RS policy. If somebody will explain that to them, I would be eternally grateful. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The references i have presented are from reliable sources and related to the topic. Only because they are not mentioned in a book written by someone from USA doesn't make them unreliable. I hope everyone understands that Acid–base reaction and September 11 attacks are not the same type of topic. In order to write the pages like Acid–base reaction and X-ray astronomy academic sources are more than enough (no media source necessary) : but articles like September 11 attacks , 2004 Madrid train bombings , 2010 Jos riots , 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami and Syrian Civil War requires media sources also as everyone can check the list of references from these pages.

Exclusive use of academic resources are okay for historical events like French Revolution  : but not for modern events like Arab Spring which requires Media sources also. I hope you get the idea.

Even the current version of the page 2002 Gujarat riots have references from the same souces that I have presented above like Timesofindia, india today. So you are saying that only those references should be used which supports a biased viewpoint112.79.36.24 (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Diora Baird

Diora Baird (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Regarding the article for Diora Baird, a couple editors (Dan1025 and Spanneraol) have changed "Partner" to "Spouse" in the infobox and changed "boyfriend" to "husband" in the article prose. The latest editor stated in their edit summary that she has said that Jonathan Togo is her husband on her Facebook page but did not know how to cite that. I searched on Facebook to see if I could find her profile and found several. Once Spanneraol gave me the link to her actual profile page, I couldn't verify the information since it appears that she only shares her relationship status with friends. So, is this source considered reliable? I would think so considering it's her own profile but the fact that you have to be friends with her on Facebook to verify it makes me question that. Note: I've looked elsewhere on the net and couldn't find a reliable source that says that they married. Just a bunch of fan pages and such. I would have thought People magazine would pick up something like this. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 05:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

She probably isnt a big enough celebrity for mainstream mags to pick up on her marriage. I'm actually surprised at how hard it has been to verify her marriage outside of so-called self-published sources.. but I would think her listing herself as married counts as a reliable source. Spanneraol (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Just found a posting by Jonathan on his Instagram account [21] that confirms they are married, that one isnt private. Spanneraol (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

RfC at Stefan Molyneux

Comments welcome here. SPECIFICO talk 00:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

What'cha Reading? for info on comics and comics creators

Is the comics reviews and interview website What'cha Reading? reliable for information like that found in these two articles here and here? This is the bio page for its contributors. Nightscream (talk) 02:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Not generally reliable, no. There is no indication of fact-checking or editorial oversight, nor that the contributors qualify as subject experts per WP:SPS. However, there has been some previous discussion regarding similar enthusiast/fan-sites that it might be possible to use the words of interview subjects, with WP:PRIMARY, WP:SPS and WP:BLPSPS caveats. Though in this case I'm not sure the site is established enough to trust them to render the words of interview subjects accurately. Siawase (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

usgovernmentspending.com

1. Source: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/ a project of http://www.christopherchantrill.com/ (and Chantrill may be User:ChrisChantrill; a note re the RSN will be posted to Chantrill's talk page). 2. Articles & Content (footnotes are generally for the dollar figures):

• [22] Chart –used in Government spending
• 2011 Oklahoma state budget – footnote 18
• Comparison of Canadian and American economies – footnotes 10 & 11
• Jon Huntsman, Jr. – footnote 34
• Kansas state budget (2008–09) – footnote 12 (multiref for a table)
• Reaganomics#Fiscal consequences – footnote 54
• Federal Involvement in US Education#Initial Federal Action – footnote 4
• List of government budgets by country#Estimating budgets – footnote 3

Seems to me that usgovernmentspending is a blog and not RS. Input requested. – S. Rich (talk) Note: strike out indicates the reference has been removed from the articles. – S. Rich (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's SELFPUB. I'ld say it's like Wikipedia, a place to start looking for for reliable sources, but it is itself not RS. LK (talk) 05:02, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The various usages for the website have been removed from the articles and some were tagged as cn. The articles are now on my watchlist, so I shall discuss if there is a desire to use the website on any of them. As the usages are removed, I've stricken the footnote numbers. I shall await archiving of this page. – S. Rich (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Boston Poetry Magazine

Is Boston Poetry Magazine a reliable source for use in the Jim Dunlap article to establish notability?

• Boston Poetry Magazine is hosted at wordpress http://bostonpoetry.wordpress.com/about/
• The article on Jim Dunlap is here

--Bejnar (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Sources for criticism of a "controversial" music video

I'm currently working on "Bounce (Iggy Azalea song)" and I have found quite a bunch of reliable sources for the music video's positive reviews. However, the video which was shot in Mumbai, has been noted to be controversial and accused of cultural appropriation - a fact I can't really portray in the article without the following sources:

• Auto Straddle
• One Point Four
• Zimbio
• The Aerogram
• Schema Magazine

I'm quite unfamiliar with these sources and am unsure if they are reliable enough to make use of? Some seem to be from outlets/websites in India. Which of these sources are reliable enough to use? Which come across as bias? I don't think I'm experienced enough to make the call, lol. Like I said, the sources will be of high value to the article.—CoolMarc 17:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Schema Magazine looks reliable and like a serious-minded outlet, with what looks like some academic aspirations, established for 10 years[23] and what looks like a solid editorial team:[24] The other outlets all seem less solid, for different reasons, but might be acceptable depending on usage. As for your question of bias, these are all opinion pieces/analyses from a particular point of view, and should be clearly attributed as opinions in the prose. Opinions with a point of view can be included, as long as WP:NPOV is followed, and no WP:UNDUE weight is given to any particular point of view. You may also want to keep WP:CSECTION in mind here. Siawase (talk) 21:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

HMS Adamant as Reserve Fleet Flagship

The wikipedia article on HMS Adamant is incorrect in stating this ship left Australia in 1950.

She was in fact in reserve at Portsmouth and was mainly used as accommodation for ratings who

maintenance crews on various other ships on reserve certainly in 1948 and 1949 when I was berthed

on her as part of the maintenance crew on K644 HMS Cawsand Bay.

She was certainly employed in this role when I took discharge in November 1949.

Mike Carroll ex Stoker Mech. PKX/830572

masterstrack.com

Because Hirolovesswords (talk) is pushing a POV, and started an edit war trying to delete content, masters track.com has come under attack by this user as a reliable source. Stealing my own message to this individual at Talk:April Jace: Masterstrack.com is the premiere news aggregation site for the sport of Masters athletics. It has been providing that service since February 1996, initially via AOL and now onto its own domain. The editor of the site, Ken Stone is a professional journalist working for the San Diego Union-Tribune, and its on line service Sign On San Diego, Patch Media and timesofsandiego.com. Just as every major newspaper has a blog to disseminate aggregated news items (which wikipedia accepts as reliable sources every day), the editor of this site has chosen the blog format. He gets news, which he documents well, from a wide variety of sources and tips from thousands of users, which would include myself. I have used masterstrack.com as a source for edits on the subject since my earliest days writing articles about the subject, more than 5 years ago, without challenge. Looking back through the history of the site, it looks like there have been close to 30,000 postings since the site moved to the domain and blog format in January 2003. The vast majority of them are pure news, sans commentary. With this very public history available, I don't see any reason why this site should not be treated as a reliable source on the subject it specializes in.Trackinfo (talk) 00:23, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• It should be noted that the dispute in question involves an article about a recently deceased person and the rules regarding self-published sources differ on these pages. I am not disputing Masterstrack's reliability as a source, just as a source for biographies of living/recently deceased persons - Hirolovesswords (talk) 01:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Bleacher Report

Is Bleacher Report, a website full of self-published content, reliable? RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Goal.com

Is Goal.com, a football rumour site, a reliable source? RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 15:17, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Specifically which kind of rumors? Transfer rumors? LRD NO (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Padmanabhaswamy temple

I have reverted this edit: diff as per my judgement the sources didn't qualify RS criteria.

I also reverted a previous, similar edit of the same User:SumerianPrince: diff, where he used a different random website, which I challenged at the talkpage regarding RS.see Discussion

Apparently the user is of the opinion that a site must be listed at the spamlist to be disqualified as a reliable source, which is quite nonsensical: diff

It would be great if someone clears the scene and identifies the provided sources correctly. --ThaThinThaKiThaTha (talk) 17:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Interview source for List of best-selling Xbox 360 video games

An interview[25] says:

Rob Wright: You released The Orange Box for both the PC and the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 consoles. Were you happy with the business the console versions did, and how did it compare to the game's PC sales?

Doug Lombari: We were very happy with both the Xbox 360 and PS3 sales. I think the Xbox 360 version did just over a million, while the PS3 [released later in December] version did a few hundred thousand copies.

Can "I think the Xbox 360 version did just over a million" be taken as fact? Also a bit worried they spelt his name completely wrong, it's Doug Lombardi.--Vaypertrail (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The only discussion I know about this is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 2#Tom's Games--70.49.80.26 (talk) 20:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)