Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

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Gamergate controversy

My opinions are repeatedly called "fringe" in this discussion. This is not an accusation that should be slung around without sources backing it up. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:07, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like you ought to go to Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard.

Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules and policies are often references by acronyms and abbreviations that are either cryptic or, as here, look more alarming than they ought. The questions under discussion is whether -- and how -- your provocative Twitter post [1] can be used in the Gamergate Controversy article. As always, editors must weigh the source, the argument, the publication in which it appears, and its relationship to other reliable sources. One policy that's mentioned here is WP:RS and the question of self-published sources -- the encyclopedia typically considers material that appears in multiple mainstream sources as more reliable than self-published sources, though the latter can be used in some special circumstances. The other policy being discussed is WP:UNDUE -- whether the argument advanced by this source is representative of the consensus of reliable sources -- that is, whether it's "common knowledge" -- or is controversial though widely held, or whether neither is the case. The shorthand for the latter situation is WP:FRINGE and covers a host of things . Believing the earth is flat or that fluoridation is a communist conspiracy is WP:FRINGE, but so is the belief that Huckleberry Finn is a lousy book (pace Jane Smiley) or that the novels of Susan Sontag are overrated (Bull Durham) or any other exceptional opinion. Any striking opinion piece is likely to qualify as WP:FRINGE on publication -- the point of such pieces is to open eyes, after all. It could be worse: my classics training cries out to say that you're making an argument ex silentio, which would be a Bad Thing in Classics Quarterly but, after all, you're not writing for CQ. We can't point to dozens of articles in major newspapers and magazines that agree with the thesis you propound: that’s why you wrote this. The question before the encyclopedia is, which ideas are broadly agreed-upon by lots of sources and which, newly argued here, we must wait upon until a broader community has considered them. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:05, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that description of WP:FRINGE is overly expansive, but the point stands that "fringe" is being used as a term of art. Rhoark (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I gather this will not be addressed. Please correct me if I am wrong, or else I will take this feedback as a refusal. Auerbachkeller (talk) 19:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Auerbachkeller: That's a discussion about the validity of your article as a source. Those are the opinions of individual editors and nothing there rises to the level that would require action by administrators. Nor is that talk page seen by 99% of the people who read the article. So I guess the question here is what would you like us to do? §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's true that policy about living persons does apply to article talk pages. At that talk page, it appears the pertinent discussion was primarily among User:Aquillion, User:DHeyward, and User:TheRedPenOfDoom. Are you seeking for any talk page comments to be deleted? You might have more success with such a request if you would first go to the noticeboard that I suggested above, i.e. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard. Alternatively, if you would like us to change the word "fringe" to something like "non-mainstream" then please say if that would be satisfactory.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: That will not help. The use of WP:FRINGE in that context was incorrect, at least as far as Wikipedia considers the term. "Fringe" in general around here is alternative medicine and sasquatch and UFOs. "Fringe" as used in that discussion I assume means it's not mainstream or reliable or valid enough to include in the article. It's an incorrect application of the definition. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Frog. I pinged the three editors so they can explain how they meant the term. If they used the term incorrectly, perhaps they can agree to replace it with something else.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've read through the rest of that horrible talk page and I think I understand what's going on. It seems certain sources have been called "fringe" in order to exclude them from the article. Which in my opinion is incorrect, but then that whole article is a true clusterf*ck anyway. Short of removing every comment that invoked WP:FRINGE I'm not sure how we would address this, and quite frankly as it is not clearly something that breaches WP:BLP I don't believe it is actionable. "Fringe" used to be limited to alternative theories about subjects that deviate greatly from the mainstream, but here it is being wielded as a weapon of sorts. Auerbachkeller, I would recommend bringing this to the Administrator's noticeboard where it will get more attention from experienced editors, and perhaps actioned in some way. On the other hand you can simply just ignore what random people on the internet say about you. But that's up to you. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Auerbach's self-published source is not fringe. It's basically a followup to his cited work in Salon. An opinion does not become "fringe" simply because it appears in a different source or form. If I say "the Earth is round," it doesn't become FRINGE simply because I wrote it in the notoriously unreliable source known as Wikpedia. In Auerbach's case it is not fringe and it's descrption as fringe is a BLP violation and should be corrected promptly as I originally did. We have no sources identifying his view as FRINGE. --DHeyward (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is not about where an opinion or theory is published; it is about its relative prominence in the field. Auerbach's theories are, at least in my opinion, clearly not prominent -- almost no reliable sources agree with his interpretation of the situation, especially on this particular aspect -- so they fall under WP:FRINGE. Beyond that, as I said below, arguing that the mere assertion that a theory falls under WP:FRINGE is a BLP violation against the person who holds it would render us effectively unable to discuss the relative weight of sources. --Aquillion (talk) 20:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree this is not a BLP vio (because I agree we need to be able to discuss these issues), however I disagree with the application of the term "fringe" in that particular context. But that's neither here nor there. So long as BLP is being observed there's nothing for us to do. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is, as people have explained above, a Wikipedia policy dealing with how to cover theories that are not widely-accepted; it is not meant to be derogatory, merely a comment that your opinion-pieces do not reflect the mainstream coverage of GamerGate among the rest of the press, and therefore shouldn't be given excessive weight. I stand by my opinion that your theories fall under that policy; they are directly at odds with the overwhelming majority of mainstream coverage. More mainstream outlets have, for instance, clearly taken the position that AAA publishers have condemned GamerGate. See eg. LA Times, NPR, PC Gamer, and The Washington Post; on the other hand, I'm not aware of any other reliable sources expressing your opinion that there is a secret well of AAA support. Beyond that, there are several other details of the opinions you express in your twitter that I feel are far out of mainstream coverage or scholarship on the subject, too -- I could provide more details if you want, but I think rehashing the subject's entire debate here isn't really necessary; it's enough to show that my position is at least reasonable, even if you disagree. Your opinion can still be mentioned, but I think it's clear that quoting your opinions on the controversy repeatedly throughout the article (as some people want to do) would be giving undue weight to a view that is not widely held. Now, all this is just my interpretation, and obviously some people disagree -- but that's why we have those talk page discussions in the first place. The important part is that saying that I feel your theories fall under WP:FRINGE is not a insult to you personally, and reading it that way would have chilling effect on our ability to discuss the relative weight of sources, which is a vital component of building a balanced article. --Aquillion (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Whether the views in question are "fringe" or not, that word is commonly defined as something that is marginal, additional, or secondary to some activity process or subject. It is certainly not a compliment, but it's not necessarily a personal insult either. I wish Wikipedia would reserve the word for Sasquatch-UFO type stuff, and use a milder word for more accepted small-minority views, but that's just me.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

To me, "fringe" would be someone saying that GG is a conspiracy by the lizard people (albeit one presented very professionally). This is not fringe, nor are most of the sources referred to as fringe in that discussion and the archives. Yet apparently at some point "fringe" became "counter to my views" and no one did anything to prevent it. Just another toxic side effect these articles have on the project. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I object to that; please remember to assume good faith. I can understand your position that WP:FRINGE should be reserved for academic subjects with more clearly-defined standards of publication, but I think that it is still appropriate to use it to describe theories and takes on current events that go against a near-universal consensus among the reporting of mainstream reliable sources, as I believe to be the case here. Either way, my usage is clearly based on my honest belief that Auerbach's views are far out of the mainstream (which I think I have established reasonably well, both here and, at further length, on the talk page for the main article, and which I think is reasonably clear when you compare his take on the controversy to almost any other mainstream source.) I've presented much more coherent arguments than just "counter to my views", and by asserting that that is my reasoning you are implying bad faith on my part. If you feel that reading or application of WP:FRINGE is off, that's fine; if you feel that I'm wrong about Auerbach being out of the mainstream, you're welcome to dispute that on the talk page for the article. But implying, as you have here, that reasons behind my arguments are purely based on disagreement with Auerbach rather than a legitimate belief that his take on this issue is far out of the mainstream (and, I suppose, a legitimate disagreement over how to apply WP:FRINGE) is inappropriate; people with different perspectives on a topic and its coverage can have different views on what opinions are mainstream, what is prominent and what is WP:FRINGE, and so on. Those disagreements are not automatically signs of bad faith. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Aquillion: My comment was not directed at you, sorry if it seemed that way. It's just a general observation about what goes on in that talk page. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 22:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

So you are placing me under this rubric (from WP:FRINGE):

We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field. For example, fringe theories in science depart significantly from mainstream science and have little or no scientific support.[3] Other examples include conspiracy theories and esoteric claims about medicine.

• Creation science and Intelligent design – The overwhelming majority of scientists consider this to be pseudoscience and say that it should not be taught in elementary public education. However the very existence of this strong opinion, and vigorous discussion regarding it amongst groups such as scientists, scientific journals, educational institutions, political institutions, and courts of law give the idea itself more than adequate notability to have articles about it on Wikipedia.
• Holocaust denial – Claims of Holocaust deniers – that Adolf Hitler had no genocidal intent against the Jews of Europe, that no gas chambers were used for mass murder at camps such as Auschwitz, that the number of Jews killed by the Nazis was far less than six million – are rejected as false by an overwhelming majority of professional historians, although the Holocaust deniers themselves will still occasionally get some public notice and therefore notability.
• Moon landing conspiracy theories – Conspiracy theories which aim to show that the Moon landings were fake, while probably not held as true by very many people, have generated enough discussion in books, television programs, debunking statements from NASA, etc., that they deserve an article on Wikipedia.
• Paul is dead – a famous urban legend alleging that Paul McCartney of The Beatles died in 1966 and was replaced by a look-alike, sound-alike duplicate named William Campbell. Denied by all four Beatles (including McCartney, who is alive and well as of 2014), this conspiracy theory was fueled by "clues" found among The Beatles' many recordings. The rumour has been the topic of much sociological examination because its development, growth and rebuttal took place very publicly, owing to The Beatles' enormous popularity.

And I take it you are indeed refusing to rescind this claim that I fall under this rubric, nor back it up with sources. Good to know. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. I want to be clear on this point. Auerbachkeller (talk) 22:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

You're misreading that list; it is a list of examples of highly notable fringe theories (which therefore tends towards ones that are particularly bold in their claims.) I am not asserting that your theories fall under that category. But I am indeed asserting that they fall under the general definitions of a WP:FRINGE theory, one that "is not broadly supported by scholarship" or is "an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view" in that particular field. I continue to hold the opinion that the theories you advanced in the twitter post in question (which may not, of course, describe your entire thinking on the issue) fall under both the letter and the spirit of our WP:FRINGE guideline in that respect. I believe I have provided sources above showing where the specific claim under contention goes against mainstream coverage, and I feel that going over the sources for the article makes it clear that the overarching position you advance in that twitter post departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view of the controversy. Now, of course, not everyone would agree; but as I said above, I think that it is vital that editors be able to express their honest opinion on the weight due to a source and whether it is WP:FRINGE or, similarly, whether it falls under any number of other policies that an author might interpret as derogatory. Certainly many authors would be as unhappy as you are here if they knew we described their words as 'unreliable' or 'biased', but we must be free to make those assertions, even if people might legitimately disagree, in order to produce a usable encyclopedia. --Aquillion (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC

I think your interpretation is lacking. FRINGE is not about how much it is accepted in reliable sources, it's how much it's rejected. There are many physics theories involving gravitons and strings that are not widely accepted and are not fringe because there is very little opposition but also very little support. Comparatively, fringe theories have direct opposition in mainstream sources. "Flat earth" is widely refuted and is fringe due to its opposition. Auerbach by contrast has no mainstream opposition. That, by definition is not fringe. --DHeyward (talk) 03:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I've decided to hat the discussion because it was going nowhere except bad places. Does that resolve everything?Bosstopher (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Is the resolution that the claim that I am "fringe" as described above is not going to be rescinded? Auerbachkeller (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, I am not saying that you are fringe; my opinion is that the specific theories you advanced in that one particular Twitter post are WP:FRINGE. Fringe-ness, at least under our policy, applies to theories and ideas, not people. You are not fringe, but I feel that your opinion that there is a secret wellspring of support for GamerGate among AAA publishers, specifically, is a fringe theory under our policy. If you feel it's a BLP violation merely to describe a theory you articulated in this manner, I don't know what to say; I feel I've cited several reputable mainstream sources that contradict it, while the only source we have for it is your twitter post (which, even if you turned around and published it in a reputable publication, would still only be one opinion piece from a single person.) In a situation like that, I ultimately don't think it's reasonable to interpret criticism of a theory you've advanced as a BLP violation. --Aquillion (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess I have my answer. All right then. You say that I subscribe to a "theory" that your classification places on a par with Holocaust denial and creation science. You stand by that claim. Understood. Auerbachkeller (talk) 23:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

People may wish to see the items listed at Category:Fringe_theories.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

And with Godwin's Law validated, we are certainly now done with any productive discussion. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I specifically said I didn't feel that that list of examples was a good comparison (since it's a list of fringe theories notable enough to support their own article, which naturally tends towards the incendiary and highly controversal.) I wouldn't compare the theories you advanced in your twitter to those things, no, but if you look at the Fringe Theories category above, they cover a much wider range. Beyond that, though, a theory stating "there is a secret hidden group of people who support this", in the face of reliable coverage of that same group opposing it? That is a fringe theory to me. Similarly (since it has gotten a bit more coverage), the theory that there is this group of indie journalists and vaguely-referenced "allies" who you believe are colluding to manipulate games journalism for the purpose of gaining social influence? That's... not what the overwhelming majority of mainstream sources say, so I'd describe it as pretty fringe; in fact, the article has many sources describing it as a conspiracy theory (though I suppose some of its advocates might describe it as a "conspiracy fact".) See NYmag, CS monitor, Forbes, washington post, Ars Technica and The Guardian, among others. These are sources I'd consider mainstream; who else is there of comparable stature who agrees with you on these things? --Aquillion (talk) 00:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• What is basically being said here is that it is being argued that Auerbach's piece is a minority view that would fall under WP:UNDUE of whether to include or not (weight of all opinions involved), but should not be called as a "fringe theory" as the term in art means a theory that goes against well-established facts, determined by scientific, medical, or legal evaluation. Flat Earth is a fringe theory because of the huge amount of proof the earth is round. But Auerbach's opinion piece on GG cannot be treated a fringe theory because there is no factual assessment of GG to say it is fringe. It is certainly the minority view where undue coverage and weight apply, but we cannot be applying WP:FRINGE to the Gamergate situation. --MASEM (t) 01:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I gave a heads up to the Fringe Noticeboard about this discussion.[2]Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Masem, A fringe theory is not a theory that goes against well-established facts, it is a theory that doesn't (yet) have mainstream acceptance. Fringe theories sometimes turn about to be correct. For example, Germ theory and Continental drift were fringe theories in their day but are now widely accepted. - MrOllie (talk) 02:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• MrOllie that's nonsense. There are many physics theories involving string theory, gravitons, and multi-dimensional space that lack mainstream support. They also lack opposition. Fringe theories are defined by active opposition in mainstream sources, not by lack of mainstream coverage. There is quite a bit a difference between active opposition and a lack of coverage. Lack of coverage is not fringe. Einstein's predictions were not fringe even though it took decades to prove. Same with Hawking radiation and rotating black holes. If no one is willing to refute them, they are not fringe even if they are not widely accepted. That's fundamental scientific inquiry. --DHeyward (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Recapitulating the discussion (which is going nowhere, slowly): Some editors pointed out that Mr. Auerbach's Twitter essay is difficult to use in the encyclopedia because it is a self-published source. Others noted that its core argument, whole interesting, is not widely shared among reliable sources, and placing too much weight on it might be WP:UNDUE. Others point to WP:FRINGE -- which is related to WP:UNDUE, and which concerns a variety of ideas which are held -- sometimes strongly and persistently held -- by small groups but are not broadly accepted. (Another obvious example of a WP:FRINGE argument is the belief that Gamergate concerns ethics in journalism: it could perhaps be true, and Gamergate fans insist it is true, but right now the overwhelming majority of the best sources dismiss it.) MarkBernstein (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Guillermo Cabanellas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Guillermo Cabanellas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article does not seem to have encyclopaedic relevance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.97.70.45 (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome to nominate it for deletion if you wish (although I'd recommend creating an account first). However, you must do some homework before you do that, and my guess is the subject probably meets WP:PROF if nothing else. The onus is on the nominator to prove that the subject does not meet our inclusion guidelines. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I have nominated it for deletion, as it is just one long curriculum vitae. WP:PROF (if someone wishes to show it meets this, feel free) isn't an end-around the WP:GNG anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mark Chelgren

The following information was removed from the Mark Chelgren article with the comment Removed politically motivated material:

In 2015, Chelgren proposed a bill to the Iowa Legislature requiring all university professors to teach at least one course each semester, to terminate employment of professors receiving poor course evaluations, and to hold a student vote among the five professors with the worst course evaluations, in order to terminate the contract of the professor receiving the fewest votes. In an interview with the Chronicle of Higher Education regarding the bill, Chelgren asserted: "When I went to school, the professors who graded the hardest were among my favorite professors, not among my least favorites. The ones who seemed like they were just going through the motions and weren’t actually doing their jobs were the ones that were very frustrating. Instead of me working with that professor, you’d be pushed off to a TA or you’d simply deal with a professor who was so arrogant that you couldn’t actually ask questions without being demeaned in class. You talk about education in general and avoiding bullying issues, but a professor runs their classroom like they’re some kind of dictator."

What is the relevant policy to determine inclusion or exclusion of such information? Arguably, almost any information on a politician can be considered to be added or removed with political motivation. What Wikipedia policies apply here? Does this paragraph belong in the article or not? --Gerrit ^CUTEDH 16:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Gerritholl, I'd say Educrat132 is wrong to remove your entry. Yours was sourced reliably (except the one source linking to acadameblog). Further Educrat123 seems to be editing ONLY the Mark Chelgren article, making him likely an SPA, further he appears to be whitewashing the article, in | this edit he removed a fact added in by Sysop Northamerica10000, and made essentially the same edit | here as well , added puffery here , removed a reference | here , twice as well as here, where he removed a reference and added in puffery | here. If Educarat123 isn't Mark Chelgren, I'd wager it's some one with a strong COI or someone under his direction. I'm inclined to put it back and see him warned. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It made the news at NPR as well, so I'd say that's notable enough for inclusion, along with the Chronicle of Higher Ed source. Tarc (talk) 17:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

References

A bit of a head's up

I revisited the article for Deray McKesson tonight since he was mentioned on Fox News's Hannity show (my grandfather watches it religiously). It looks like he was the focus of a concentrated series of online attacks via Twitter recently, so there's a chance that this could spill over on to Wikipedia. So far I don't see where there's been anything to truly worry about, but I figured that having a few other eyes on the article would help. Also, if anyone wants to help flesh the article out that'd be fantastic - I've done stuff here and there but I'm not overly familiar with everything and I normally don't follow the news in general, so if anyone is more familiar with the Black Lives Matter movement then they might be a better asset to the article than I am. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Angela Rose

A few different editors (who may be related or SPs) have repeatedly added copyvio to and removed sourced content from Angela Rose. I have requested page protection, but I am not very familiar with which process is preferred for BLPs, so I am posting here as well. I have reverted this copyvio a few times and do not want to run into accusations of 3RR. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Page has been protected. I made a series of edits to also cleanup the page and remove unsourced content. Meatsgains (talk) 02:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Naomi Wolf

• Naomi Wolf (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi, it appears that no editor is keeping watch over this BLP, but in the past few days it has been attacked by IPs. I reverted this yesterday, but there is a persistent effort by this new IP to add "titillating" and otherwise slanderous material to the page. I am going to undo their edits now, but I am asking for page protection or for someone to help. This is my first experience with vandalism of a BLP, so I am not sure if I'm responding appropriately. It seem obvious that the following is not appropriate. Should I ask at ANI for this IP to be blocked? Thanks in advance, petrarchan47คุก 21:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• "She later fell in love with the movie producer Avram Ludwig, whom The New York Times said possesses "the skill to deliver orgasms that make the leaves outside her upstate home glow in Wizard of Oz Technicolor."
• see changes
• tendentious editing

• I have just removed the IP's edits. petrarchan47คุก 21:10, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Protected for two weeks. Those edits were a bit much. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you so much. petrarchan47คุก 21:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Added to watchlist. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Mohammad_Yaqoobi

This article was listed as 2014 for copy edit and I reviewed. I found that this article did not meet the requirements for notability or independent sources for biography of Living Persons. I highlighted it for deletion and notified authors. My edits were reverted without explanation. Isthisuseful (talk) 15:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit summaries explained the reason for the revert. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

See also User talk:Miniapolis#Proposed deletion of Mohammad Yaqoobi. Pinging Miniapolis to notify that this revert is being discussed here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Poorly sourced material on someone who just died a few days ago?

Hi all! I have an odd question for you: there is an editor repeatedly adding poorly sourced info to wikipedia about an actor who just recently died. I've removed it a few times and spoken with the editor on his talk page but, he just put the info back again with the same poor source that doesn't say any of the info he's adding to wikipedia (other than the fact that the actor is dead): no dates for his tenure on the show, no confirmation of the characters he played. Is this allowed or can I continue to remove it? What should be done? Thanks in advance.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cebr1979: Please provide a link so other editors can have a look at the page and take whatever action may be necessary. Thanks. Eagleash (talk) 12:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

He actually just added a better source so the point is now moot. Thanks anyhow, @Eagleash:.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Julian Priestley

In the Wikipedia article on Julian Priestley on the right side there is a reference to his post as Secretary General of the European Parliament 1997 - 2007. The presidents during this time (of the European Parliament of which he is the SecGen) are referred to as well. Unfortunately, the names given are those of the Presidents of the European Commission. Could somebody set this right, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.41.42.3 (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Antonin Scalia

4th paragraph, last sentence should be deleted. It states that on June 26, 2015 (today) Antonin Scalia was arrested for attempting to burn down the Supreme Court Building. This is obviously non-sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.92.148.18 (talk) 16:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Already reverted by another IP. Monty₈₄₅ 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Lea Michele

User:Attmcb is insisting on including material in the Lea Michele article regarding an alleged sale of her home in Los Angeles. ([3])

The user claims, in an edit summary, that the photo in the cited realty site page "is the same picture" as the picture in the Daily Mail article cited as source #1 in the article ([4]). While these two pictures are similar, they are not identically the same photo (they could be the same house seen from two different angles, or they could be two separate houses in the same housing tract which happen to look very much alike). Nothing on the realty site page identifies Lea Michele, or anyone else, as the current or former owner. In my opinion, saying these are "the same picture", and on that basis concluding that this is/was Lea Michele's house, violates WP:SYNTH.

Further, the realty site page gives the address of the house in question — thus arguably providing Lea Michele's recent-past residence address. Even if such information is accurate, it is inappropriate per WP:BLPPRIVACY. On that basis, I reverted Attmcb's original inclusion of this new material, suppressed it per the oversight policy, and notified the user ([5]); however, he/she has restored the challenged information.

What do others think is appropriate here? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 19:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• he information has already been deleted as suppressed, but I agree it doesn't belong. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Penderyn (whisky)

Controversial assertions regarding Penderyn director Nigel Vernon Short are not supported by the link provided, nor are they germane to the subject of this entry.

This section has been multiply-reverted by user Ibadibam, who appears to have a wish to defame the person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontarioboy (talk • contribs) 19:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

It is difficult to assess the reliability of source from an archive link - but regardless of whether it is reliably sourced or not, a discussion regarding what one of the directors did in relation to an unrelated business seems off-topic to me. 20:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Fairly clear that this is an WP:UNDUE WP:COATRACK. Information has already been removed by AndyTheGrump. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 01:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Richard C. Hoagland

Could we have a review of the article? It appears to me that the subject is openly being trashed both in the lede and body of the article, in an obviously unencyclopedic way. I don't pretend to understand Hoagland's theories, but he was a science advisor/commentator, appearing with Walter Cronkite at CBS for three years, an inconvenient fact which is omitted entirely from the lede, while violations of core WP:BLP policy abound, as I see it. The phrase "never held a degree" is one example of slant in the text of the article, but the lede is particularly nasty: I earlier today attempted to remove the second and third paragraphs, but was reverted. The obvious hostile slant is an embarrassment to the encyclopedia. Reads like an attempt, line by line, to discredit, shame, and belittle the subject, who according to the Talk page, has complained about his Wikipedia article. No matter what one believes about this person, the encyclopedia has to do a much better job than this. Clear violations of WP:UNDUE, even if sourced properly. Jusdafax 23:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The page has already had at least one very extensive review. I invite interested parties to this discussion to inspect the 7 May 2014 version. You will then appreciate how extensive the review immediately after that date was. User:Jusdafax seems to want a rosier version of this man's curriculum vitae but, absent any endorsement of his "work" in the public record, I would say it's going to be near-impossible to source such a version adequately. Stu (talk) 23:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

What I want is not a "rosier version" but an encyclopedic article that does not come off like a hatchet job. Again, I request a review of the article from an uninvolved party. Even a cursory look reveals BLP violations and WP:UNDUE emphasis. Jusdafax 06:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

One of your recent edits there removed the second and third paragraphs from the lead. But if he isn't notable for bizarre "scientific" claims and conspiracy theories, what is he notable for? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed the paragraphs because in my view they require a fundamental rewrite and need to be discussed. And as I say above, not to include any mention of Hoagland's years of television appearances on CBS with Walter Cronkite makes the lede unbalanced. I do see a bit of improvement, after my removal, but as it stands the lede is unencyclopedic, the version prior to my deletion extremely so. Jusdafax 07:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'd support inclusion of appearance with Cronkite. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I came here because the regular editors at the article appear to have the attitude that Stu, above, has. Rather than add material in now, I'll continue here. Now how do we justify the third paragraph in the lede? It's out and out trashing to have Oberg's and Greenberg's opinions of Hoagland there to conclude the lede. Oberg, according to his article, is a hostile "skeptic." Again, is this an encyclopedia or a bashing forum? Jusdafax 08:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

...looking still further via Google reveals an interesting dispute between Greenberg and Hoagland regarding the origins of the theory that there is an ocean of liquid water under the crust of Europa, and that no less a figure than Arthur C. Clarke acknowledged Hoagland's work for Clarke's inspiration for the plot point in Clarke's "2010." Greenberg's Wikipedia article, by the way, is loaded with unreferenced claims, and arguably should be tagged for speedy deletion. Is this a worthy citation for the lede? I'd say no, and suggest deleting the third paragraph at once. Jusdafax 09:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If someone writes that there were ancient civilizations on the moon etc. and that the American government is conspiring to hide this information, I think "conspiracy theorist" and "pseudoscientist" are not unfair. There are other sources for these descriptions apart from Greenberg. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If User:Jusdafax wishes to add that Hoagland was a consultant to CBS TV News 43 years ago, I assume he or she has a reliable source for that. Obviously, to be encyclopedic it isn't enough that Hoagland claims this. Stu (talk) 14:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Took me about 5 seconds to find this. Also this, a book discussing conspiracy theories (but not a conspiracy theory pushing one). Also this. There are thousands of hits, there are bound to be many more, and one only has to be careful how many of the websites have recycled press releases from Hoagland or his website. Black Kite (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

All right, good enough. Just be sure, please, not to go along with Hoagland's claim that he was in some sense a personal assistant to Cronkite. The sources I've seen say he was one of four consultants to the CBS Apollo coverage, along with Lindy Davis, Charles Friedlander and G. Harry Stine. Stu (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with how the article treats the subject, or anything that would violate BLP or NPOV. When someone is extremely notable for promoting fringe conspiracy theories, WP:FRINGE instructs us to make it clear how those ideas differ from the mainstream. I think NPOV is often confused with "neutrality" and "let's make both sides of the issue sound respectable and let the reader decide". When it's warranted, Wikipedia is not neutral. And this is certainly such a case. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Jorge Horacio Brito

Hello! I was looking at the biography of Jorge Horacio Brito and in my opinion it looks biased or not neutral and damages the reputation of that living person. I think it would be good if other users can take a look at it, because it seems that it has corruption allegations that have not been brought to a trial yet. At least, this is what I understand from the article, which is mainly sourced with articles from the media. It is known that media provides information about cases of corruption, but they not always finally probed. In fact, I realized that there was a conflict with this article, with a couple of users trying to make the biography more neutral by deleting the references of corruption Special:Diff/664463936/667671889. Is it right to have an article that has such harmful information here? I mean, maybe those charges are true, but should Wikipedia be more cautious in allowing this kind of information? I hope someone can give further details about this because apart from this article, I saw many articles about people, most of them relevant, that not only gives biographical information but also describes charges that still are on trial. Many thanks!--Tuquoquefili (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I have stated before I would be willing to work more on the page and reach a compromise. In fact I will take another look soon. But any admins stopping by should take note of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sherlock4000/Archive .

This may be another attempt by this user to make disruptive edits by abusing accounts. I will note that I had attempted compromises several times before on Brito's page with Sherlock only to have him immediately and flippantly undo any compromise and accuse me and other editors of all sorts of conspiracies. DaltonCastle (talk) 03:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me DaltonCastle, I believe that another users should give their opinion too, because you've been part of the discussion and the one who have made the editions that in my opinion looka biased and could damage the reputation of the guy. Don't you think that Wikipedia should avoid this kind of information until is fully verified. I mean, verified on a trial. Thanks for your reply and your explanations!--Tuquoquefili (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Julian Gardner (poker player)

There is currently a discussion on the talk page of Julian Gardner's article regarding whether a certain piece of information about his playing habits should be included. There have been some concerns expressed about whether all points of view are being equally included in the discussion, so I would appreciate it if any interested editors would take a look at the discussion and weigh in with their thoughts to help us reach consensus. The article is also currently the subject of a deletion discussion if any editors are interested in adding to that discussion as well. Thanks! ~ Rob^Talk 04:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

• FYI, this is in the sentence that was deleted. It was unsourced and the concern is over it being derogatory. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Amit_Khanna

This article is poorly sourced and not written from a NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.22.72 (talk • contribs)

I had a look over this Article, but do not see anything obviously violating WP:BLP. Suggest that concerned editors raise their issues on that Article's Talk page. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

A WP:PEACOCK statement removed, but agree with Ryk72: no obvious BLP violations. Minor issues are better discussed at the talkpage. GermanJoe (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The biography for Dan Puric is libellous.

The page about Dan Puric on english wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Puric is written by Mycomp, a user who hates him and the page is written in bad faith. The article is poorly documented and I think intentionally misleading.

In the first paragraph he wrote about this romanian actor that he is a "Christian Orthodox taliban" quoting a source from a newspaper article that doesn't exists anymore.

Dan Puric is an actor, essayist, author and Romanian theater director and indeed he believe in Christian values, bun he is not fundamentalist in any way.

The romanian page here: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Puric, is written as a list at the moment but one can see how manny books he wrote and the prises he won, and the english article sais nothing of this, just some quots from one controversed book of the author, published in 2008, where he expressed his disslike for the western countries that left Romania to the comunism after world warr II and allso express his opinion on hommosexuality and that homosexuals should not adopt cildren, but even this oppinions are not expressed with hate or fundamentalism, as a mater of fact the author always speaks about love.

Dan Puric never speaks or writes with hate, like this wikipedia article is written, and I think the article should be completed or completely removed for the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tazmandev (talk • contribs) 12:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done - Removed sections of lede & "controversies" section, per WP:BLP; Watchlisted. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've revision-deleted the objectionable word as well. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Bill Hudson

Bill Hudson is the father of Oliver and Kate Hudson. Just because, as a public figure, he has disowned them in the press, does not warrant the elimination of their names from the Wikipedia-page. This is a page based in supportable facts and not emotional outbursts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poboxbrian (talk • contribs) 20:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Affair and blackmail section

I came across the Susanne Klatten article by chance in my COI work and noticed that it has a dedicated section about blackmail threats she received. It looked undue to me, especially since a lot of the content is about the arrest and indictment of the perpetrator, rather than anything she did herself. My potential COI would take too long to explain - just thought I would flag it here as something worth taking a look at. CorporateM (Talk) 23:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm... on one hand I can see your point - it is a bit undue. However on the other hand, it does have quite a bit of coverage and resulted in an arrest. I'd probably recommend re-writing the section to be less salacious but keep some mention of this in the article since it apparently did get a bit of press. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Maybe merge it into personal life? There's already a bit about her attempted kidnapping and we could probably boil this down to a few sentences. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• CorporateM, I've pared this down to a few sentences and merged it into the personal life section. This should be far more neutral now. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• I also noted that apparently he was brought to court over multiple similar schemes, not just what he did to Klatten, so I tried to work that in as well. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks @Tokyogirl79:. Yah, I figured either that, or the criminal himself may warrant an article, where his crimes can be covered in greater depth. I didn't look too much into it; just thought I'd flag it. I made a similar post about a company page here, but we don't have a BLPN equivalent for company pages and so I'm not sure that was actually an ideal place to put it. If anyone has a minute to look at it, it's the Internet Brands page, which has a large poorly-sourced Controversies section. CorporateM (Talk) 15:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Buddy Murphy

After some editing issues that have been noted as not disruptive on both sides after being reported as an edit war, it was recommended that this issue be brought here for scrutiny. The issue concerns the use of the this link to prove that Buddy Murphy started his career at the wrestling promotion concerned and to disprove that the WWE Performance Center has not trained him at all. BLP prohibits contentious claims through poor sourcing, and I consider this to be a controversial claim that needs independent verification. It is common AFAIK for a promotion to at best stretch the truth in order to attract new wrestlers to train and work for their promotion. This is the case here. Yet two IP's and GaryColemanFan insist without proof that the source is reliable. The page is presently fully protected to my edit, and I maintain that even without a source that the Performance Centre is correct - based in the assertion that all wrestlers who have developmental deals with WWE and work on the NXT roster (Murphy is one of these wrestlers as I believe is shown on the page and sourced) are training there. As an additional point of proof re controversial claims, I pointed out another controversial claim here which is related in that the same three wrestlers are named and a similar promotion line is used. It isn't exactly the same, but it doesn't need to be - it's still stretching the truth and promotional. The edit war started as I used the right under BLP to remove contentious claims without question (I think that's the wording) and they refused to listen. Some help is needed here and I hope this isn't too long as these reports require. Curse of Fenric (talk) 00:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• 1 If the WWE Performance Centre is added to Buddy Murphy then by the logic Curse of Fenric is using it needs to be added to all NXT performers, past and present.
• 2 The 2nd claim CoF is trying to use doesn't mention where the current (as of the link) MCW trainer was at the time he trained the three named individuals, just that he was involved in their training, so if anything strengthens the referenced edit. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 01:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The above proves my point. This IP is not paying attention to the real issue - promotions making claims based in promoting their product and not verifiable fact. For the record, if the training done at the Performance Centre is less substantive than elsewhere (as would be the case with those who've trained at Ring of Honor like Owens et al) then it's not appropriate to add it. It is with Buddy. It's there with Emma as well, and I'm sure others. Curse of Fenric (talk) 01:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a sourced edit, and the only thing you've shown to say it's not a fact is WP:OR ("I know he didn't in real life") [6]. Nowhere have you shown that the PCW site is unreliable, the MCW site (your link) makes no mention of where Carlo Cannon trained them, so it doesn't make the sourced edit wrong. If the Manchester United site said that Nicky Butt was trained by Eric Harrison at Manchester United, then the Newcastle United F.C. just said he was trained by Eric Harrison and makes no mention of Manchester United, does that then make mean that the Manchester United site is unreliable? Of course it doesn't, which is the thing you're trying to claim with your MCW link in regards to the sourced edit. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 02:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh dear. Now trying to compare an elite level soccer club with a grass roots wrestling promotion to cover for a continuation of missing the point. As far as the onus is concerned, BLP says; The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material. This is not me. As I said at the start, there must be proof that the PCW website is reliable for BLP claims. Or get an independent source. Curse of Fenric (talk) 04:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I have provided evidence with a reference, something you've failed to do everytime you put the Performance Centre in, and you've failed to prove why the refernce isn't acceptable. Just saying it isn't doesn't cut it, else anyone could say "oh, I think site X is not acceptable" and any article with that in will need it removing. WWE.com is just as "kayfabe" as the PCW, so I suggest you start removing it from any and all WWE wrestlers, past and present. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 04:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

WWE is under severe mainstream media scrutiny making them draw a strong line between kayfabe and real. Local promotions are under no such scrutiny. I don't have to prove the source is unreliable. You have to prove it's reliable and you are yet to do so preferring to attack my editing. All promotions withOUT mainstream scrutiny are subject to suspicion. This doesn't apply to WWE, TNA, Ring of Honor, New Japan and others who have the scrutiny. No promotion is Australia has it. Training in pro wrestling is highly controversial in Australia with a history of controversial claims. It is very much an ego driven business and without controls in place claims such as this are inherently controversial. It's why Australia hasn't had a major nation wide fed since 1978. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

A few things here, CoF: (1) BLP is about contentious (i.e. potentially controversial) material. Whether a little-known wrestler was trained here or there is hardly controversial. Invoking BLP to justify edit warring about a trivial detail is an abuse of the policy. (2) You have cited your personal knowledge (WP:OR) to justify your preferred version, essentially asserting WP:OWNership of the article (compounded with your ALL CAPS hidden note ordering other editors not to change your preferred version). (3) The promotion is a reliable source, as the writers are clearly experts in professional wrestling (that is, they are employed as writers in this specific field). (4) Replacing a reference with an unreferenced statement isn't supported by BLP, even if the policy is relevant. (5) Continuing the edit war after being reported to WP:AN3 is bad form, at best. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

(1) It is controversial and I would hardly call the reigning NXT tag team champion "little-known".

(2) I am not relying on OR. That at best is simply my back up to my core point. It is not my preferred version. My preferred version (and everyone else's) would be both with a reliable independent source to confirm the first. That's why I put the note not to remove the Performance Centre. He trains there. We all know it.

(3) The promotion is NOT a reliable source and writers are NOT experts! Sheesh you are giving them WAY too much room to spout lies if they want and get away with it. That goes to show that as I said above to the IP, the onus is on you to prove it is reliable. Speculation like that is not proof.

(4) As I have said before, contentious sources can be removed without question. That is in BLP and that is what I am doing. The reference is not allowed because it needs independent back up.

(5) Darkwind has stated that everyone in his view is acting in good faith so your accusation there is out of line. He recommended that the debate be brought here and that is what I have done. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Non-factual smear on Zeitgeist the film page

On the page Zeitgeist (film series)‎, two non-factual statements by reviewers are cherry-picked to say the film producer, a living person, is anti-Semitic. Neither reviewer alleges to be stating a fact or basing the allegation on factual material, but that the films "borrow" ideas from the statements of a list of named antisemites. It is guilt by association. The reviewers have no information that the producer everheard of those people or read their works. Neither the films nor the producer have said anything that could be taken to be antisemitic, and the ADL has never named the films or the producer. I have deleted the mentions and the changes were reverted within a few hours.[7]. I have reverted the page a second time just now in keeping with WP:BLP, but third editor promises to recommend a block on whichever editor loses this argument (which I consider a counterproductive threat, as both of us are operating in good faith). Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

We're not making a judgement on the truthfulness by including such passages, just noting that reliable sources have made the claims. One of the sources in question is titled Loughner, “Zeitgeist - The Movie,” and Right-Wing Antisemitic Conspiracism, so it's kinda hard to gloss that over. Tarc (talk) 17:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think repeating malicious gossip on WP is OK, even if sourced to a professional gossiper. And I don't see support for that position in WP:BLP. If that is what the policy means, though, it should just come out and say so. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Rick Ross (consultant)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29

I have tried to have edits made to correct the selective representation of my criminal record 1974-1983.

I think that if the criminal record must be done accurately and not selectively. However, nothing seems to be going on regarding the suggested edit. The account of my criminal record remains selective and incomplete. I suggest the following;

In 1974 at the age of 21, Ross was arrested for the attempted burglary of a vacant model home, but later pleaded guilty to misdemeanor trespassing. He was sentenced to probation. The next year Ross was convicted for the felony conspiracy to commit grand theft.[1] He again plead guilty, made full restitution and received probation, which was ended early for good conduct in 1979. Arizona Superior Court later dismissed all charges, expunged Ross' criminal record and restored his civil rights in 1983.[2]

The word "expunged" can be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expungement_in_the_United_States

Rick Alan Ross173.72.57.223 (talk) 17:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)