User talk:DGG

Current time: 07:10,   August   18   (UTC)

                                       ARCHIVES

DO NOT ENTER NEW ITEMS HERE--use User talk:DGG

Barnstars, Awards, etc.

Reminders

Topical Archives:
Deletion & AfD,      Speedy & prod,        NPP & AfC,       COI & paid editors,      BLP,                              Bilateral relations
Notability,               Universities & academic people,       Schools,                       Academic journals,       Books & other publications
Sourcing,                Fiction,                                               In Popular Culture      Educational Program
Bias, intolerance, and prejudice

General Archives:
2006: Sept-Dec
2007: Jan-Feb , Mar-Apt , M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D 
2008: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2009: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2010: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2011: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2012: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2013: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2014: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2015: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2016: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2017: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2018: J, F, M , A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2019: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2020: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2021: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2022: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2023: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O

 

            DO NOT ENTER NEW ITEMS HERE--use User talk:DGG

About: your eloquent summary of what does and does not improves this project

Hi DGG, or if I may be so bold, David,
You wrote at WP:AN/I Archive691:

There is more than one valid way of working here. Some people prefer to create only high quality articles, even though they may do very few of them. Some prefer to create many verifiable articles of clear notability even though they may not be of initially high quality. As this is a communal project, I think every individual person is fully entitled to do whichever they prefer, and the thing to do about people who prefer otherwise than oneself is to let them work their way, while you work yours. The only choice which is not productive is to argue about how to do it, rather than going ahead in the way that one finds suitable.

Many editors include a statement about their attitudes to editing on their userpages. I am not one of them, that is until I came across what you wrote. I would really like to include this on my userpage. While I can add anything at all I like to my userpage subject to WP:USERPAGE, I nevertheless ask for your permission to add the quote. OK with you? I'm fine if you decline this.
--Shirt58 (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course. DGG ( talk ) 21:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

May I have your input, please?

It appears that a couple users are trying to implement the restriction of new articles to autoconfirmed users from the recent RfC (please refer to this bugzilla thread). I'm not certain that everything is in place to start that restriction. The closing admin specifically mentioned a few conditions.

the discussion also showed consensus for making (unspecified) improvements to the Article Wizard and giving more attention to the Articles for Creation process.

and

Almost everyone who commented on it seems to think that the Article Wizard can and should be improved. There were also repeated concerns about making sure that the Articles for Creation process gets more attention so it does not become clogged and proposed articles get the improvements they need. Participants on both sides of the discussion agreed on these points.

As you wrote the key dissenting view, would you mind looking in to this situation and then providing your input to this conversation with the WMF staff? Thank you for your consideration. Cogitating (talk) 07:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I see your comment there and I agree with you, and will say as much, but I am also going to say that I do not think the WMF can or should prevent the community from doing something like this. I've consistently opposed their interference in our content beyond the minimum legal necessities, and I've opposed some of the policies resulting from it, such as the excessively stringent NFCC restrictions beyond the requirements of copyright law, and the adoption of a BLP policy that permits use to suppress unfavorable but well-sourced articles on significant subjects, and is potentially destructive of NPOV. I saw their attempt last year to impose a policy of restricting sexual images, which was only reduced to some degree of reason by a change in board membership. I see their willingness to encourage a mechanism within Wikipedia to facilitate outside censorship; again, the only thing which has kept this from being not just encouraged but required, was a change in board membership. This will be a recurrent issue. I oppose using them as a court of final appeal for issues within Wikipedia, and shall continue to do so. This far outweighs almost any individual issue. Even though we may decide wrong, at least letting the WP community decide gives freedom of action to the individual Wikipedias to have divergent policies, and thus allows experiment even in sensitive areas, which is the only way to prevent stagnation. IMO, this applies both to the board and to the programmers. I opposed the introduction by the programmers of a crude and unscientific system of article rating, and their willingness to expand it, without each time getting explicit consent of the community. It has nonetheless apparently been accepted by the community, and I am not sure it is worth the effort to involve myself in its improvement. I opposed their attempt to introduce a deficient version of vector as the default, similarly--at least then, so did much of the community, and we were at least able to get it improved significantly.

Yes, I consider the introduction of this feature a potential disaster. I expect to see the number of incoming editors fall precipitously even below its present unsatisfactory level, as soon as it is implemented, and possibly not recover even after the trial has stopped. The attraction of being able to make an article is one of the primary motivating factors for editing. It is however possible that I have misjudged, and the proven discouraging effect of the extremely negative comments that new editors encounter is even worse, and the decrease in this might counterbalance the negative effects of not being able to immediately start an article. The only effective thing I can do in this case is to try to persuade people to diminish the length of the trial, and try to find ways of working with new editors despite the constraints, and, perhaps, try to keep fewer promising articles from being rejected via the article creation process--at present, too many of the few people working there insist on a good quality, rather than just an acceptable article.

Sometimes a cause is lost. I opposed the use of BLP Prod, but it was adopted, and my experiences at prod patrol indicate it has had at most a trivial beneficial effect, as everything it properly deletes would and would have been deleted anyway. and a considerable negative one, as it leads to many deletions of articles on people who could have been sourced had anyone experienced here had the time & incentive to do it under a deadline--and it has not noticeably decreased the number of incoming unsourced BLP articles. I've given up on getting rid of it, even though it takes a good deal of my time to prevent whatever percentage of inappropriate deletions I manage, and thus has decreased my participation in other things, such as just this sort of policy discussion.

Sometimes opposition can be effective, as with patrolled changes. I certainly opposed it, and when it became clear it would be adopted supported those who successfully limited it to a trial and to a limited range of articles. The community , upon seeing among other things that those using it did not limit the trial to the intended purpose, ended up by rejecting it, at least in its present form. (The community asked the developers to improve it for another trial, and the developers, not unreasonably, were unwilling to do the amount of work involved if it was going to be to be rejected in the end, as they I think correctly foresaw it would be.) DGG ( talk ) 18:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Opinion needed: as you've been involved in the messy Avaya MfD's, do you think there's a better way to handle them? Like freezing the similar MfD's and link them to one general? I don't know. I'm just guessing, OR is the matter that each product needs to be viewed separately to see its individual notability? Thanks is advance... ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 20:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC

Chinmaya.328

Thanks for your comments on User talk:Chinmaya.328 (though I'm not certain the editor even knows of the existence of talk pages). The user's other article, Themis Medicare, reminded me exactly of your recent comments on Wales's talk page about identifying when a PR firm has written something...a list of milestones, reference to the company being first at numerous things, etc. As a side note, I don't know (and maybe you don't want to make public) how your conversations with NoRaft went, but I support the idea of working with paid editors, not just blanket forbidding them (since we can't even do that successfully anyway). I honestly don't get why Jimbo thinks that such involvement is now and has always been forbidden and everyone knows that and no one disagrees. I totally accept that he opposes it, and even accept the idea that he/WMF can make a fiat rule against it, just not his idea that there is an obvious and overwhelming consensus that agrees with him. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that one--in fact, I would have listed it for deletion except that I saw you had worked on it. It's large enough that it might be notable, but whether I feel like doing the work for an article like that depends upon the factors of how important the company is & my opinion of the editor's good faith. I've had no conversations with NoRaft. I sent him an email, suggesting he privately & confidentially tell me who he is, & what articles he had written, but had no response. I will not do something potentially problematic with someone who hides his identity from me, any more than I go down dark alleys with masked strangers. I can see his problem, though--he's promised his clients confidentiality, and by our own rules I can't insist he tell me. Therefore, I shall do as always: any article he or anyone known or unknown asks me to look at on-wiki, I will look at and give my opinion and advice, on-wiki. I'll talk with even masked strangers in bright lit public places. I do not think Jimbo's ruling has literal consensus, but is rather one of the pious statements that nobody will openly challenge, but nobody will actually follow. It is even contradicted by his own statement of our basic policy, that anyone can edit. Anonymity has its benefits, but also its problems, and can lead to such paradoxes. DGG ( talk ) 04:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure I've seen you reference this essay

WP:TALKINGSOFASTNOBODYCANHEARYOU. Is my memory that faulty? I can't find it, and it's possible the syntax isn't precise. Did you use this a sort of irony? I seem to remember you used the link to represent bullying behaviors. I'm seeing one such user who seems to be wanting to turn the entire AfD process on its head by using such a technique. BusterD (talk) 11:48, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I have sometimes used pseudo-links like these as a statement for their own sake, without writing an actual essay. I remember saying something like this, but I can't find it. I think this one was TALKINGSOMUCH... -- but I can't find it either. As for the problem, I've commented pretty extensively at AN/I: [1], and will comment at the RfC also, But please don't confuse the reasonable message, with which I am in agreement -- that Deletion Policy is overbalanced towards deletion, and one step towards rebalancing it would be to require some version of WP:BEFORE -- with the unreasonable way it is being over-expressed. DGG ( talk ) 23:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, David. I was a debater in school before "talking so fast" became the current style. I feel anything which games the system deserves appropriate response in order to keep the system sound. I appreciate your valid concern about deletion procedures being over-weighted toward one outcome. Thanks for your valuable comments in those forums. Be well. BusterD (talk) 23:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, I had forgotten that context. And so was I,in college--a very valuable experience, especially in facilitating the sort of intercampus experiences only the athletic teams otherwise gave occasion for. But the stimulus is interesting: if I take a turn at NPP, the amount of junk turns me for a while into a deletionist before I catch myself and stop being so unfriendly to all the newcomers. If I take a look at AfD, the number of unwarranted nominations makes me want to give a similarly snappy and unjust response to all of them, with the less than rational thought that if I argue against all of them, maybe there's a chance the good ones will make it. Several good inclusionists have run into trouble here falling into such temptation. DGG ( talk ) 23:58, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

BLP Youtube personalities

Hey, am back with query once again, are youtube personalities notable enough to get on WP ? Please help me out over here GloZell_Green and check this message. Thanks. Rangilo Gujarati (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

it depends , as always, on references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases. Almost always all material about them is on the internet in the form of blogs of some sort; the question is then what sort of blogs count as reliable for the purposes of notability. In the past, Wikipedia has been notably restrictive in this, but as more and more other responsible sources appear in this format, things are changing. There's a subsidiary question in each particular case of whether the coverage in the references is substantial, but that's essentially the same question as with references in any media, and amounts to a question of judgement. Such judgements can depend not on the merits but on what one wishes to prove, since often each position can be justified. The prevailing attitude, which to some measure I share, is extreme skepticism. I summarize it by saying that for someone to be notable, they have to have actually done something notable -- in the ordinary meaning of the word.

but this case is simple with respect to notability: the deleted article on Green had no third party sources whatsoever. I doubt anyone who understands Wikipedia would support it at an AfD unless better sources could be found. However, it was deleted via A7, and the criterion for A7 is not notability, nor is it whether the article would be accepted into Wikipedia, but some reasonable indication or claim of importance. The question is whether the claims there are such. I consider them borderline. The person certainly thinks what they've done is important. I do not, but I can recognize that a person might think so in good faith. Myself, I might or might not have A7'd. Given that I know I have a prejudice against such careers, I might have passed on it & let some other admin decide. In any case, I have a standard practice for a questioned A7 speedy like this: first I give the fairest advice I can, which in this case is that without real sources it will surely be rejected in its present form, so it would be best to submit it again once there are sources; and then, if the person still wants me to, I undelete and send it to AfD (they rarely do, if I give the advice clearly enough). It's easier than arguing. If I was right, it'll be deleted, and there will be grounds for a G4 in case of the almost inevitable re-creation. (The only problem is that sometimes it might not be a good faith article, in which case the subject deserves to be protected against the negative comments at AfD. That's not the case here--they want the publicity. The previous speedy of a much sketchier version was deleted on A7 and G11, something I also do a good deal. I might have done that here.)

The case is not helped , of course, by the comparison that's made to Jenna Marbles, which has several good third party sources, and would almost certainly pass AfD. When someone says , but X has an article, there are three possibilities. Most commonly, X is famous, and then almost always the proposed subject is hopelessly non-notable & the claim is absurd—naïve but well-meaning editors argue this a lot, often for self-published authors. Also common, is that X is in fact borderline notable at best, and quite possibly should be deleted also—spammers often use this argument & there's an obvious course to follow, which usually stops their questioning, though it will hardly satisfy them. But, rarely, it is a reasonable protest: either we are generally inconsistent in the area involved, in which case it should go to AfD, to take its chances in the coin toss, or there actually was an error in evaluating X. DGG ( talk ) 00:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

uw templates

FYI. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you and I with our combined experience could go a long way to help develop this. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Ping about Wikipedia talk:WikiProject user warnings/Testing

Hi! If you still have suggestions for any of the 9 listed as "in-progress" at WP:UWTEST, please drop a note on the talk page for that template. We're going to start the new test now and would rather not change the templates in the middle, but it's easy to do a new test or simply incorporate changes afterward, since all we need is a week or so of data. I'm interested to see what you'd like to do, because my feeling is "the shorter the better" on these warnings. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Clarence Ridgeby Greathouse

What we ought to be doing is completely rewriting all the old article content taken from all the pre-1923 PD sources--the old Brittanica and Catholic Ency and Jewish Ency the worst; the old DNB is a little better, depending on when the article was written. The tone is generally unsuitable and the facts and interpretation often unreliable. So I freely say, though I've almost never taken a hand in it myself.

In this case, the two attribution statements gave it away, for they were quite frank about it. I would probably have deleted it had I not noticed them, without investigation. DGG ( talk ) 04:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't have enough information to judge your assessment of the reliability of those old 19th and early 20th century encyclopedias, but since I know that you are a librarian, I will defer to your expertise. That being said, I think that we should keep articles referenced only to those sources, because there is a clear potential to expand and improve these articles. I spent some time a year or so ago working on an article about a real 19th century "character", Harry Yount. It took a lot of in-depth online searches, refining my search terms and developing techniques to separate the wheat from the chaff. But I was able to uncover lots of reliable source material in a week or two of effort. I think the same can be said of an article like this one. An editor could take this on as a personal project, as I did with Mr. Yount, and a much better article could result. If we delete the article, the chances for that outcome are greatly reduced. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

of course we should keep them--but we should rewrite them with modern sources added--just as you did. That one of these encyclopedias has an article is considered not just as an indication, but a definitive proof of notability , because we include everything in other general encyclopedias. It's just that they is essentially no subject whatsoever where additional knowledge, and very often more accurate knowledge, is not available--just as you found in the one you worked on. You're doing what we should all of us be doing. DGG ( talk ) 05:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks DGG. I'll try to be sharper about catching such attributions in the future. OlYeller21^Talktome 17:29, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Guide to information sources

This seems a bit strange to me. The one reference that I can access does not even mention the term "Guide to information sources". Perhaps it should be moved or redirected to a more suitable article? --Crusio (talk) 06:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

it's an appropriate article; I'm not sure there is a really standard term. The one I used in teaching was guides to the literature. The most common beginning words of the titles of such books is however, A guide to information sources in (subject), In any case, it can be much expanded, and I will do so: I know of over a hundred, many in multiple editions. Perhaps it should be List of guides to information sources, because dozens of them are notable individually--there will be substantial reviews for most of them; or perhaps not, because there are some that should be included but may not be, and, more important, I don't immediately want to write all the articles. DGG ( talk ) 16:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Testing those alternate templates you made

Hey, just a heads up we prepared the user warnings you made. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject user warnings/Testing#Suggestions at the end. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 01:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Charles Scriven for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Charles Scriven is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Scriven until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. noq (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eraoihp (talk • contribs)

WP:UWTEST members update

Hi, you're getting this message because you signed up to receive updates at WP:UWTEST, the task force on testing of user warnings and other notifications.

Here's what we're up to lately:

• Huggle: There are tests still running in Huggle of level 1 templates, including a new template written by DGG. A full list is available here
• SDPatrolBot: There is a new test running on the talk page messages of SDPatrolBot, which warns people who remove CSD templates. (Documentation of the test is here.)
• Twinkle: We've proposed a test of AFD and PROD notifications delivered via Twinkle, which has been positively received. (See: 1, 2) This test should start this week.
• Shared and dynamic IPs: Maryana's proposal to test the effect of regularly archiving shared/dynamic IP talk pages is in its final stages. There are also two relevant bot flag requests: 1, 2
• XLinkBot: the herders of XLinkBot have approved a test of its warning messages concerning external links. Test templates are being written and help is most welcome.

Thanks for your help and support, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 02:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Novelguide

I am reaching out for help to revive the article that I wrote some time ago about an educational website - Novelguide.com. As of today, there are 549 articles here on wikipedia that site this website for its content. I used the google search box under the wikipedia search results to find this number. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Novelguide User:AbbyWaters —Preceding undated comment added 15:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC).

Do you have 3rd party substantial references? DGG ( talk ) 18:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

A tool for you!

Hi DGG! I've just come across one of your edits (or that you have been patrolling new pages), and noticed that you might appreciate some help with references.

I case you're not aware, you might consider using this tool – it makes your life a whole heap easier, by filling in complete citation templates for your links. All you do is install the script:

// Add [[WP:Reflinks]] launcher in the toolbox on left
addOnloadHook(function () {
 addPortletLink(
  "p-tb",     // toolbox portlet
  "http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webreflinks.py/" + wgPageName 
   + "?client=script&citeweb=on&overwrite=&limit=30&lang=" + wgContentLanguage,
  "Reflinks"  // link label
)});

onto Special:MyPage/skin.js, then paste the bare URL between your <ref></ref> tabs, and you'll find a clickable link called Reflinks in your toolbox section of the page (probably in the left hand column). Then click that tool. It does all the rest of the work (provided that you remember to save the page! It doesn't work for everything (particularly often not for PDF documents), but for pretty much anything ending in "htm" or "html" (and with a title) it will do really, really well. You may consider taking on Category:Articles needing link rot cleanup. So long! --Sp33dyphil © • © 07:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello, DGG. You have new messages at Moonriddengirl's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Quick question

I am getting the new Huggle test ready today, and I was wondering... some of the short versions have a link to the diff, while others do not. It might be interesting to test overall whether referring to the diff or pagename is better. Do you mind if I standardize them, and if I do, would rather they all include a reference to the diff or not? My instinct is to remove it and see if that has an effect. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 00:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree--omit the diff & we'll check that later; DGG ( talk ) 01:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the quick response. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 01:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Notability

Hi David. I seem to recall that we may once have possibly been in disagreement over the notability of schools. Without prejudice to you opinion (and I can't really remember exactly what it was), there is a discussion taking place at this project that may be of interest. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I think I've been there. There's such a simple rule to follow: high schools yes, others no, that I can't see why anyone would bother except those who really want to argue the details of sourcing for 50,000 individual articles. I can see Wikipedia as a good place for those who like to argue, and sometimes I'm one of them, but there are more interesting things to argue about--some of which even have significant consequences, and a few of which represent the highest goal of human understanding, helping development of one's ethical principles. DGG ( talk ) 03:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, we seem to have been in total agreement after all. I can't understand why anyone would want to drag this peren issue up again, especially so soon after the last one floundered. There is better work to be done than flushing out thousands of high school articles for deletion or even arguing about it. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:UWTEST update

Hi DGG,

We're currently busy designing some new tests, and we need your feedback/input!

1. ImageTaggingBot - a bot that warns users who upload images but don't provide adequate source or license information (drafts here)
2. CorenSearchBot - a bot that warns users who copy-paste text from external websites or other Wikipedia articles (drafts here)

We also have a proposal to test new "accepted," "declined," and "on-hold" templates at Articles for Creation (drafts here). The discussion isn't closed yet, so please weigh in if you're interested.

Thanks for your help! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 01:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Scholar Indices and Impact

Could you perhaps have a look at this article and the remarks I made at this talk page and tell me what you think? Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

commented there. DGG ( talk ) 20:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Dan Littman

You know the guidelines better than anyone else I know when it comes to academics. Please take a looks when you can. I had just tagged for notability, original creator thinks it doesn't need it. Rather than debate, I would leave it in your experienced hands if you have the time. Dennis Brown (talk) 19:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

certainly notable, as is generally the case for full professors at a leading world-famous research university like NYU (I used the word "generally," which I think vague enough to accommodate the various views: there is considerable disagreement about whether it is "always the case,", ""almost always the case" or 'very often the case" -- my own view, as I think is well-known, is that it is always the case, and the problem is only in deciding which universities it applies to. However, not everyone working on these articles agrees with me, including some of my most trusted friends here, so I am not sure "always" would be the consensus position at this time. My argument is similar to that on many other topics--we have much to gain by not having debates about every one of the tens of thousands of articles involved. We hare more harmed by inappropriate promotional articles about academics --just as about everything else--than we are by slight variations in the standard of notability. Time spent at AfD on determining borderline notability is time that should be better spent in patrolling new articles (and re-patrolling the older ones). Much better to have a simple standard, and concern ourselves with content. But in any case, this particular full professor is notable, but, as is often the case, the article needs a little rewriting isn't done in quite the best way to show it, and I will either do some rewriting or at least offer some advice for doing it. I apologize for not going into the details here, but they'll be clear in the finished articles, where the citations will show him an expert in his subject. DGG ( talk ) 05:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

(and for over 100 earlier discussions on this & closely related issues from my talk p, see my topic archive, User talk:DGG/Academic Things and People talk ). DGG ( talk ) 05:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Academy of Achievement

Hi there DGG, you were recently involved, briefly, on the discussion page about an organization called Academy of Achievement. Prior to November, it was much too promotional; at present, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, as I've explained in a note on the article's discussion page—and as I see you warned in your previous note on the same page. I think I endorse your viewpoint that an EduCap article could be created to address its controversies, but the treatment it is given here represents a clear case of coatracking.

It's worth noting that I've been engaged by the Academy to help resolve the matter; in hopes of doing so efficiently, I've prepared a proposed replacement (in my user space here) that I hope presents an acceptable compromise, or a workable starting point. Hope you can join in discussion on that Talk page. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 18:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

In popular culture

The ones I chainsawed were full of things like "[Name of show] has an episode [with very similar but not identical name], an obvious shout-out", which is original research, or "[Name of show] mentioned this in very faint passing". I fail to see how one line of throwaway dialogue in a 22-minute episode warrants a relevant mention. Something more obvious, like "The creator of [show Y] cites [show X] as a primary influence" is fine on both Show Y and Show X's articles, as long as the claim is verified. But I just don't think we need every tangential little mention, especially in list form, which looks ugly. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 16:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

first of all, I would never say that everything in these sections was good, but you deleted the entire sections, the good and bad indiscriminately. (What I consider bad is analogies that are not documented or obvious, and of uses in non-notable works or unimportant contexts.) So are you telling me you had examined every item there and found that there was nothing useable in them according to your standards? I don't think so, because you consistently cite the worst, and use it as the justification for everything.

Second, your standard is wrong--At the very least there's certainly a general consensus that it is fully sufficient for the item to be significant in the work, not only if it is the primary theme or influence of it. But below even being important, even the little details are significant, for they are what show the cultural influence of a prior work , or natural or human-made object, or theme. This is how the cultural network is built. The significance of something is that it becomes a standard example that others will recognize. Entire art forms are constructed around this principle: parody, mash-up, collage, sampling. But even in ordinary work, its important what is shown: this is the sort of thing people study in not just literature and cultural studies, but history. There are books and articles, both scholarly and popular, written on , for example, the specific naval references in Jane Austen. or the geographic elements used by Shakespeare,the drinks people drink in a fictional work, the legendary characters or historical events they assume the audience will know about. This sort of information should be part of the content of a comprehensive encyclopedia like ours, which is not limited except by what people want to include.

Third, with respect to documentation, that something is the main theme or important or occurs in a work can be sourced from the work itself. It's one of the standard exceptions for the use of primary sources.

Finally, the wholesale elimination of the dozens of sections , some of them from major articles, in the course of a few days, done without discussion--and especially the reverts when people restored them-- were unconstructive. Even from your point of view, indiscriminate over-hasty zeal diminishes the value of what you were doing. You use the word "chainsawed." It was an accurate description, but perhaps you didn't mean to use it, for that word has the implications of vandalism. Had you instead taken out the worst of the junk, it would have been a positive contribution. DGG ( talk ) 02:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Mechademia

If you have a moment, could you perhaps have a lok at this article? There are a few small problems here. There's a list of issues "sourced" to Amazon.com. There's also an extensive "reception" section with some cherry-picked quotes. And some editors (see talk) vehemently oppose inclusion of links to the journal page at Project MUSE (because that is apparently spam for a paysite, whereas the Amazon links are sources...) Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 08:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll comment there. But it's good to see a journal article that does have reviews of the journal. DGG ( talk ) 01:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Mechademia edits

You made some comments about the scholarly journal Mechademia, which deals with manga and anime. The full text and all tables of contents for Mechademia are available for free at http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/mechademia/ and all articles can be downloaded for free. I added the link on the talk page, but not in the article itself. Check the link yourself and then, if you want, add it to the article. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

If you go to the page, you'll find vol 4 of Mechademia is available. That wasn't clear in what I just said -- sorry about that. Hope this is clearer. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

No, that is not the case. Only sample issues can--at present, vol.4. If you see more than that, you are working within the domain of a college or library that has a subscription. I'll forward you a screen shot if necessary. DGG ( talk ) 18:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I can get the ToCs from the link I gave, not only for Vol. 4 but for the others too. Except for Vol. 4, downloading costs money, but the ToCs are on the link. Let me go back and check them all. I'll be right back. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, all the ToCs are available -- I just checked. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is what most journals do: the TOCs at least are readable, and there is a sample issue or volume available free. A great many, including all or most of the journal backfiles at JSTOR, have abstracts free also. A very few don't even let you see the TOC, which is f rather silly--free TOCs and abstracts help sell article access. Usually we do not give the specifics of this in the article, because it;s fairly standard and subject to change. We certainly don't let any journal doing this imply they have free access. Now, if we could persuade the publishers to make everything free except the most recent issue or two, it would be a small step forward--though that of course is not open access, which requires the final version to be free to read and otherwise use upon publication, which, from the point of view of disseminating ideas, is the only acceptable solution. I sort of know this by heart, having spent the last 10 years of my professional career on negotiating and arranging for e-journal access for a university (and have kept up since then), and been since 1999 an active advocate of true open access. DGG ( talk ) 18:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

True, true... I too have spent many years on the editorial boards of several scholarly journals but have mixed feelings about open access. Until we can find free money to pay the printer, journals will not be free to readers. In an ideal world -- well, in an ideal world, there would be world peace, clean air, no crime -- we don't live in an ideal world. So we have paid subscribers, who provide the cash we need to pay the printer. But I agree that ideally open and free access would be wonderful. Timothy Perper (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking for your advice : Speedy

Hi, DGG. I came across a A7 speedy tag at James E. Wise, Jr. and declined it as the subject looked notable at a cursory glance. A7 makes no mention of notability and I don't understand why. Are we to ignore notability if the other conditions of A7 are met? I may be overlooking something basic, but I don't see the utility in deleting aticles about notable subjects because the creator requests deletion. (In this specific instance it wasn't a request so much as it was acquiescence). Anyway, thanks for your time...I hope things are well with you. Tiderolls 05:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC) I considered posting this at WT:CSD but was sure the subject had, most likely been discussed there previously and I was too lazy to search the archives. Mea culpa.

1. The rule for speedy is that the article will be deleted in the subject shows no indication of importance of significance, which I think of as meaning that nobody in good faith who understood the purpose of Wikipedia would think there should be an article. Notability is more than this. Any subject that is notable will certainly be important or significant, while a great many things that may have some good-faith importance will still not be notable. When I first came here, I asked the same question you are asking, and suggested clarifying this by saying importance or significance or notability. The answer I was given by those of more experience is that it is better to avoid using the word "notable" entirely in defining A7, because it will inevitably lead to people asking an article be deleted because of no demonstration of notability, which is asking too much--only the community can decide notability, whether passively at WP:PROD or actively at AfD. Admins have views on this that are too diverse for them alone to be trusted, and notability can in many cases be pretty nebulous. But if something is totally insignificant, we pretty much all agree, and speedy A7 is therefore limited to the types of things we all normally agree on.
2. Personally, I think we should never have ever adopted the word "notability". It operationally has a meaning peculiar to us, what is called a "term of art", meaning only the question whether there should be a separate Wikipedia article; I think we should be deciding how much coverage to give the subjects that are of different grades of importance: varying from none at all, to a complex set of related articles. But people here like what might appear to be simple yes-no distinctions——but then they find themselves quarreling endlessly about everything anywhere near what they thought was a clear the borderline.
3. As for deletion by request of the author of the article, although Wikipedia contributions are licensed irrevocably, sometime people change their mind, and it is good practice to show understanding.. Very often though it makes sense, and we don't want to embarrass people by a public discussion. If the reason is not immediately obvious to me, I ignore such requests or ask for a reason. Sometimes it's because the author realizes the difficulty of writing an adequate article, and doesn't want an inadequate one to stand. Sometimes, the author is not convinced it will hold up at AfD, and would rather avoid a very public process about it--our AfD process is apt to make a mountain out a a molehill. (In this case, guessing from the author's talk p., I think both reasons apply.)
4. As for the article in question, he's an author of multiple books that have been published by a reputable publisher and are fairly widely held in libraries-- see WorldCat Identities; if they have substantial reviews, he meets WP:AUTHOR. However, depending on the extent of the reviews, the books seem rather routine, and that publisher, while often publishing books of very high quality and significance, also sometimes publishes works of quite minor importance. If someone brought it to AfD, there are others things I'd think better worth the effort of defending. DGG ( talk ) 06:38, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI: NPA

It may well be that someone has already had the courtesy of notifying you of this, but just in case. I've no idea what it is about, or whether it has significance, but I thought you ought to be aware of it.--Scott Mac 01:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) New link seems to be this. PamD 09:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I saw it myself a little earlier this evening. KW seems to be doing his utmost to show himself in as bad a light as possible. It's perfectly consistent with his general behavior there that he didn't inform me. As far as I am concerned, I don't think what he said about me is significant enough to respond to. I took the same view as others did. If he holds a grudge, that's his lookout.

As for my position on NPA, it's been stated elsewhere: that people at a responsible public site behave like they do no longer amazes me; what continues to puzzle me is why the site tolerate them. Perhaps I have a responsibility to say this there, but people will see it here also. DGG ( talk ) 04:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

That, I think, is the nub of the whole arbcom case. We've managed to get some sort of American free-speech, citizen's-rights, ethos, which tolerates children being childish, and really has nothing to do with building an encyclopedia. Sadly, it is unlikely to change.--Scott Mac 04:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it's better to avoid nationalities--to many Americans like myself the offensive style here is more like British pub speech, or more exactly, the constant back and forth of insult in British comedy sketches, rather than random use of occasional bad words that characterizes American adolescents. When people work together, deliberate and repeated use of what others in the group clearly consider insult always has the implication that the others do not matter. Whether everyone considers it insult is irrelevant. DGG ( talk ) 15:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I've not made myself clear (and foolishly appeared to insult Americans). The style here is certainly British (and the whole "cunt is not sexist in Britain" meme is slight of hand, because although not generally used to refer to women in the UK, it is not a term anyone would use in any open social space - because it is clearly anti-social pubic language, only tolerated in certain - generally male - in-groups). No, my reference to the US was not that Americans are less civil, it is that there seems to me a Wikipedian reluctance to clamp down on certain types of speech. Go into most British public spaces and use the word "cunt", and you'll soon be asked to shut-up or leave. Use it in the hearing of customers in most workplaces - you'll be fired. And if in any particular sub-culture that's not the case, you won't be able to operate within any wider culture unless you learn how to adapt. Wikipedia is a wider culture. I may, inadvertently, happen to use a word that's acceptable "where I come from" - but once I am made aware of the wider cultural sensitivities, I must surely desist. The idea those involved here don't realise this is, quite frankly, not tenable.--Scott Mac 16:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Very eloquently put Scott. I concur with you both. Why the site tolerates it is an enigma to me too. But it does. That said, some of the worst insults do not need the use of expletives to be gravely insulting and demeaning - but in the current investigations, that aspect of PA and incivility seems to be unimportant. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Interestingly the word "cunt" appears (final para) in today's Observer newspaper (a "respectable" paper, not a scandal sheet), albeit as a quote quoted from an article in Time Out and used to illustrate incivility woman to woman (and the original speaker was perhaps using it to emphasise her "working class" credentials?) While we wait for their inevitable degeneration, we should try to maintain an even temper, although that is not always possible or even desirable. After Helena Bonham Carter, the great-granddaughter of Herbert Asquith, complained that for all her advantages and beauty directors would not hire her because she was not "trendily working class", an exasperated Kathy Burke found the effort of keeping a civil tongue in her head too much to bear. "As a lifelong member of the non-pretty working classes," she told Time Out, "I would like to say to Helena Bonham Carter: shut up you stupid cunt." Not sure if this adds anything to any discussions, but thought it noteworthy when I saw it this morning. Perhaps it does tend to illustrate that it's not a misogynistically-offensive term over here (UK), just a stronger version of "stupid cow", ie rudeness applied exclusively to a female; male equivalent probably "Stupid prick". (But I spend most of my life in a quiet village looking after an aged Mother, so am no expert on what's said in pubs, on buses or in workplaces at present!) PamD 17:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The quote says it all. Burke "found the effort of keeping a civil tongue in her head too much to bear". Were User:K.Burke on Wikipedia, she would, by definition, have breached WP:CIVIL - can could be blocked. Now she might argue that User:Posh-Helena had bated her, but would we buy it?--Scott Mac 18:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I was at first surprised at our emphasis on the wording: I now appreciate it as a good opportunity for discussing bad language. I agree with Scott that the way "cunt" is used in the quote above shows that the use is normally considered offensive in the UK, and that this was newsworthy as an exceptionally crude statement. Its implication depends on the circumstances--it can be used in a positive sense between lovers. But even if the word were uniformly used in the UK as a strong compliment, even among strangers or people working together in offices, referring perhaps to the excellence of women as exemplified by their sexuality, and if nobody at all in the UK, even those of a previous generation, were ever offended, it still is offensive here, because we are not writing for a UK readership only, and it is obviously perceived by many people here as a crude insult. Even were all women uniformly in the English-speaking world to think it a friendly greeting, if any substantial number of men nonetheless considered it an insult to women, it would be offensive. All of these discussions about the intrinsic nature of this word or other words is entirely irrelevant to NPA. If words are perceived by at least some reasonable people here as offensive, that is what matters. I'm Jewish. If I'm called Jewish, I normally consider it a neutral descriptor, or sometimes a word of praise. If it's used to me as an insult, it's insulting because it considers my ethnicity a fit term to be used

Kudpung refers to insult expressed in polite terms. We need to recognize this as improper also--NPA means no personal attacks, not merely no personal attacks using conventional words of insult. When terms normally considered insulting are used, it aggravates the situation; when terms often used to indicate group membership are so used, it aggravates it further. It not the intrinsic use of any particular word that is crucial to NPA--it just makes NPA easier to prove.

There's even more serious aspect: when experienced people in a group can get away with behavior newcomers can not, it implies an hierarchy, a non-welcoming attitude. a sense of exclusiveness. It's a collective version of OWNERSHIP: the longer you're here, the more you own the encyclopedia. If we do welcome newcomers, the longer a person is here, the great should be their politeness. It's the same as an expert trying for OWNership of an article: for a true expert, their edits will prove it. If those of longer standing have the ability to determine our practice, it will be because their experience enables them to best explain it. DGG ( talk ) 22:00, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the missing link here is not so much NPA as "don't needlessly disrupt Wikipedia". What is a personal attack may very well depend on the intention of the writer, and his expectation of how the recipient will understand it. Thus, if we assume good faith, lots of things can be excused as having "friendly" intention, or having been misunderstood. However, it is not enough to have good intention - one also needs not to use language that may predictably give the impression of an intent to give offence (even if none is intended). To give a concrete example: a number of years ago a user was accused of a racist post (I can't remember the details). Of course there was uproar. The user then protested he had no racist intent, and indeed was himself black (sorry if that's the wrong term). The defence was accepted. However, in a virtual community no one knows you are black - so don't use the language that requires that knowledge for context, because it is likely to be misunderstood by some and thus cause disruption. Same here: how one normally uses "cunt" is immaterial, that one doesn't intend a personal attack is good, but also insufficient. If you know that a form of words is likely to be seen as uncivil - just don't use it. We are trying to communicate in a multi-cultural, non-visual community. Sure, people should assume good faith, but you should not (as far as you are able) require them to understand your ethnicity, gender, culture, local linguistic practice, religion, or sexuality in order to understand your words. You should attempt (as you are able) to use language that transcends that - ans so deliberately using language that doesn't is disruption (or even trolling).--Scott Mac 22:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

One of the saddest aspects gained by a reputation of of being unpleasant is that it has deterred some people from wanting to submit articles for promotion to quality status. It's already driven most people away from wanting to help the project through promotion to the use of a set of tools. This is clearly not conducive to a healthy collaboration and growth of the project. In other words, it's disruptive. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

"Don't needlessly disrupt Wikipedia" can apply to a great many things. In a sense, it's the basis of all offenses--contributing or commenting in such a way as to make trouble for people. It includes persistently submitting unacceptable articles, or persistent attempts to remove acceptable ones. Or copyvio, edit-warrring, or promotionalism--especially non commercial promotion of a cause. All of these take effort to deal with, and interfere with work directed to building the encyclopedia.

Anything can upset people, especially if it's connected with rejecting their work. There is no intervention, however well meant and however careful, that is truly safe--I've had people upset with approaches that essentially amount to , "let me help you make a better article"--especially with autobio, where people tend to think they have written the obviously perfect article. Whatever people take offense with, I apologize for, and apology helps, if perceived as sincere, and if it's more than "I'm sorry it had a bad effect on you" but rather along the lines of "I made an error, and I will fix it."

But the best first line towards improvement is avoiding certain comments that are known to be especially dangerous.These are the expected--any reference to age, or race, or nationality, or sex, or religion; or using words some people thing are taboo. Reflections on people's education are tricky--much more than the others, they may be an actual problem, and, in this encyclopedia, they can be connected sometimes with age and first-language; I've learned to avoid these also. But the basic rule remains, that in a very public setting, where you are interacting with a range of individuals of unknown identity and background, with extremely variable preferences and expectations for formality, and a wide range of expectations, it is necessary to be extremely careful how you say and do things. It might sound like this is asking a lot: but we're all trained in language use and interpersonal interactions from infancy, and even children are aware of the concept of hurting other people's feelings.

(There are some people who unfortunately are not, and may indefinitely require guidance; one special aspect is that people with these difficulties are often attracted to our relatively impersonal setting; though we say WP is not therapy, it can be, or at least can be a safe environment--but just as in society generally, it is very difficult to encourage these individuals while also protecting the others, and we therefore will always need mechanisms of isolation. But never punishment--having social difficulties is not anyone's fault in a moral sense (or at least so I like to say, perhaps excusing those of my own). But we are justified in asking those who can control themselves to do so, and educating those who for whatever reason have not learned the expected standard——and gently removing the others.

The excuse of intellectual brilliance does not apply here: this is a communal setting, though some people may not at first realize that. Even the best of contributors, who can not or will not avoid offending other contributors will need to find a setting where they can work without doing harm. Even those who are most readily to hurt others can very readily take offense themselves——AN/I or RfC/U are good places to observe this; I rather doubt many of those who say it does not matter to them, and that this should be an environment where everyone is expected to be tough and impervious, both taking and giving. DGG ( talk ) 02:00, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Im confused. Accusation of rudeness may or may not be justified. Dont care. How did the "c" word come up? None of the linked diffs include it? Gaijin42 (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

the word came up because the use of it has been a prominent example in the manifold recent discussions. To say we should not insult other people by using the word does not mean we should avoid using it frankly when the word itself (or the subject) is the matter being discussed. Accusations of unjustified rudeness are rather common; I said I sometimes receive some after I've deleted an article, no matter what I've actually said. I would never support a rule that we act too strongly on even true rudeness if it's sporadic, but we should act firmly and consistently when it becomes habitual or defiant. DGG ( talk ) 01:27, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI - Courtesy Notification

As a courtesy notification for your consideration, your name has been referenced by me in a recent post to User:Atama. Regards. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you for electing to contribute your observations to the article talk page. I intend to fashion a rather in depth and carefully considered response to your observations as I believe it will be productive. However, due to time limitations and a personal desire to step back from this issue for a break and some reflective consideration, I may not post my response before the blackout. Regards. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI and consideration, I have replied to your observations posted to one of the "Swiftboating" RfCs. Regards. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGG stack

I've closed the AfD and redirected the article to The 4-Hour Body. You commented that there's a possibility for a content merge, feel free to go ahead now. Deryck C. 22:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a look after the blackout. DGG ( talk ) 01:21, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Internet service

I know you said back in December you were trying to get your Internet service worked out so you could restore User:Alden Loveshade/Anaphora Literary Press. Any luck with that? Alden Loveshade (talk) 06:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Update: new user warning test results available

Hi WP:UWTEST member, we wanted to share a quick update on the status of the project. Here's the skinny:

1. We're happy to say we have a new round of testing results available! Since there are tests on several Wikipedias, we're collecting all results at the project page on Meta. We've also now got some help from Wikimedia Foundation data analyst Ryan Faulkner, and should have more test results in the coming weeks.
2. Last but not least, check out the four tests currently running at the documentation page.

Thanks for your interest, and don't hesitate to drop by the talk page if you have a suggestion or question. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Obar

Dear DGG,

My name is Jonathan Obar user:Jaobar, I'm a professor in the College of Communication Arts and Sciences at Michigan State University and a Teaching Fellow with the Wikimedia Foundation's Education Program. This semester I've been running a little experiment at MSU, a class where we teach students about becoming Wikipedia administrators. Not a lot is known about your community, and our students (who are fascinated by wiki-culture by the way!) want to learn how you do what you do, and why you do it. A while back I proposed this idea (the class) to the community HERE, were it was met mainly with positive feedback. Anyhow, I'd like my students to speak with a few administrators to get a sense of admin experiences, training, motivations, likes, dislikes, etc. We were wondering if you'd be interested in speaking with one of our students.

So a few things about the interviews:

• Interviews will last between 15 and 30 minutes.
• Interviews can be conducted over skype (preferred), IRC or email. (You choose the form of communication based upon your comfort level, time, etc.)
• All interviews will be completely anonymous, meaning that you (real name and/or pseudonym) will never be identified in any of our materials, unless you give the interviewer permission to do so.
• All interviews will be completely voluntary. You are under no obligation to say yes to an interview, and can say no and stop or leave the interview at any time.
• The entire interview process is being overseen by MSU's institutional review board (ethics review). This means that all questions have been approved by the university and all students have been trained how to conduct interviews ethically and properly.

Bottom line is that we really need your help, and would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. If interested, please send me an email at obar@msu.edu (to maintain anonymity) and I will add your name to my offline contact list. If you feel comfortable doing so, you can post your name HERE instead.
If you have questions or concerns at any time, feel free to email me at obar@msu.edu. I will be more than happy to speak with you.

Thanks in advance for your help. We have a lot to learn from you. Sincerely,

Jonathan Obar --Jaobar (talk) 05:42, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

of course I am willing to do it, and you may use my wikiname and my real name however you please, though if others are not giving their name likewise, I am sure you will do so in such a way as not to give my comments any greater implied emphasis. I should like to speak with you first about your project in general, and will email you. DGG ( talk ) 06:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Primary sources

I'm finding more and more that newbies are misunderstanding about when primary sources are acceptable, or even if they are acceptable at all.

I started a look at some policy and guideline pages, but through typical over editing (such pages are typically edited/developed due to some current event or other), the primary sources explanations seem a bit watered down and too vague.

If you wouldn't mind, would you a.) help me find any and all pages relating to primary sources, and b.) would you be willing to help write a stand alone guideline concerning them, to better help editors understand usage and so forth? - jc37 02:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no simple guideline. partly because there is no definition of "primary sources" that applies to all types of subjects, and party because the possible uses of them in Wikipedia are very various. Attempts to write one are what have generated the present state of confusion. Just a few example example: to a historian, a newspaper is a primary source, because it is used as the data about which histories are written. To us it is a secondary source, because it's an professionally written and edited responsible covering of the events. To a biologist, a journal reporting research is a primary journal, as distinct from a journal that published review articles, but the actual primary source is the lab notebook. A historian of science studies both it and the publications as primary sources for the history. The same source can be both primary and secondary: an appellate court decision is both: it's the primary source for the wording of the decision, but it's a secondary source, and a highly reliable one, for the facts of the case and the appropriate precedents. In literature, the primary source is the work being discussed; the secondary source is the discussion, but the discussion is a primary source for the thoughts of the scholar in an biography of the scholar. For a fictional work, the work itself is, though primary, the best source for the facts of the plot, because it is more detailed and accurate than anything that may be based on it; for interpretation of motives, if not obvious, a wecondary source discussing the work must be used--but there is not clear distinction about what is sufficiently obvious. The practical distinction for Wikipedia is that primary sources which cannot be used as such except as illustrations are those that require interpretation, because we do not do interpretation, which is original research. A textbook is often given as an example of a tertiary source, being based mostly on review articles; but advanced textbooks usually discuss the actual research article themselves to a considerable extent. And some textbooks, like Knuth's books on TeX and Metafont, are actually the primary sources, because the material presented there was never discussed previously and is of his own invention--unless one wishes to consider the program coe as the primary source.

In any given situation at Wikipedia , the guideline however written will always require interpretation, and the authoritative place for interpretation is WP:RSN--even though the individual interpretations may be contradict each other; just as the authoritative determination of notability is Deletion Reviews, even though different discussions may contradict each other. An encyclopedia is not a machine-written summary, but a work of creative human judgment about what to include, how to source it, and how to present it. The concept that we just repeat what the sources say in a proportionate way is overly simplistic: it helps teach beginners the principles, but does not actually decide any non-trivial cases. The examples which makes that clearest are the unfortunate widespread use of selective quotation and cherry-icking in controversial articles. I'll get things started by copying this into an essay. DGG ( talk ) 02:39, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a very good start.

Due to some of the issues you note, I think I'm going to ask a few others to also help. (User:Black Falcon in particular I have found is great when it comes to policy/guideline page creation/editing, as well.) - jc37 02:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I suspect there will not be complete agreement; but since RS is a guideline explaining the details of the fundamental policy WP:V, the practical course will be to indicate the accepted range of variation rather than try to find an actual single wording--attempts at that are usually either vague, or do not actually have the claimed consensus, because different people go on to interpret it their own way regardless of what gets written. (yes, I propose that as a general approach to writing guidelines) DGG ( talk ) 04:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Ever get around to copying this into an essay yet? : ) - jc37 14:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I have just seen your extremely helpful reply above and, as I was reading it, I thought it would be well worth making into an essay. I am glad you think so too! Coming from a scientific background I had no difficulty in understanding that WP "original research" was merely a term of wikispeak and that "verifiability" is such an odd word that it could have no obvious connotation. However, it took me a long time to realise that, when people were saying "primary", "secondary" or "tertiary", they were meaning something quite unlike anything I had understood. Thincat (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I will try this weekend. But "verifiability" is a relatively straightforward concept: it means the material in the article must be able to be shown accurate by published sources. We have no way of judging what is really true , because we have no research capability, and few editors with the recognized professional standing to check submissions by academic standards. We therefore rely on outsiders to do that, in publications that have editorial supervision. Whether we "should have such editors and give them authority is a rather complicated question & I'm going to incorporate some material I wrote for Foundation-L about this problem. (My view, briefly, is that we should not do so, but rather go as far as we can the way we have been working. There is a need for an comprehensive freely available encyclopedia with proper scholarly editing, but I don't think our methods can produce one. If it is tried, it should be as a separate project, but the experience at Citizendium has been very discouraging. The most problematic questions are: who will pick the experts?, and , what if they disagree?. DGG ( talk ) 19:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Open Biology

Hi

Thanks for your support on Open Biology. I have added some comments to the article's talk page and would be grateful if you could take a look and guide me. Thanks PointOfPresence (talk) 09:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I added some information to show it is already actually publishing articles. What is needed now is published comments from third parties about the jhournal

On newbies and deletion

Hey David. Just saw your comments on the Village Pump thread about AfD etc. and wanted to say:

1. Thank you for the thoughtful commentary
2. I agree with you about requiring more human communication. If you want to talk about actually making that happen, then let's talk. But in the meantime we're trying to slowly but surely improve those related notifications, and your feedback on the work so far would be welcome here (See "templates tested" for a look at the different messages).

We have some very clear recommendations for next tries at new notifications for both PROD and AFD, which we will be publishing in a more succinct list soon. (Notes are on Meta, if you're interested.)

Thanks again, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

yes, I'll get back there. But as you can see from the item just above,I do not have the luxury of being able to concentrate on any one thing here. sometimes everything appears equally important. And, as you can also see from the line it italics there, everything seems inter-related. We can't improve articles without more people. We can't get more people unless we fix our processes of working with articles. We can't stop to fix our processes when there are so many urgently needed specific actions such as the flood of promotionalism. So I try to work by turns everywhere. DGG ( talk ) 22:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, it's our unique chicken and egg problem. :) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Remarks about an -imho- overactive NewPagePatroller

Hi DGG,
I saw that you were involved in a Speedy Deletion Nomination (SDN) on the article about Csongor István Nagy from User Lovehongkong. The SDN came from User:DreamFieldArts, and he had also nominated my article on the former CEO of ABN AMRO where he was the main driver for the sell-off of the bank to a consortium of banks: Royal Bank of Scotland Group, Fortis and Banco Santander. This sale was one of the additional reasons why both RBS as well as Fortis collapsed at the beginning of the Banking problems - leading to the current economic downturn in the US and Europe. Although DFA did remove the SDN when I started a discussion with him I do have problems with his attitude.

I really don't think he is the right person for NPPer. In my initial mail to him (or her - didn't check) I made the comment that Rijkman Groenink might not be known in the US and he directly reacts as stung by a wasp with: The fact that you believe everyone in America is a 13 year-old girl is depressing. None the less he is on the Netherlands Wikipedia because he has some importance to it, while on the English he has none. Even if he does, (I have been proven wrong) have some significance, it is not needed. Many people have done what he has, but aren't on Wikipedia

Another problem that I do have is that he deletes comments made on his Talk page (I had to search really good to find back the Deletion request Rijman Groenink version where he made above comment, and also came later with an explination why Kevin O'Leary is notable and Rijkman Groenink wouldn't be (Kevin O'Leary is also Shark in TV program Shark Tank (see THIS version of his Talk page) (also note the difference in the entire Talk page taking into account that there are only 2 hours between those two pages)).

According to himself he hardly ever uses the SDN process, but when you look at his contributions many SDN's can be seen. And his Talk page only consists of SDN comments (there aren't that many on his Talk page as he deleted older/completed discussion threads on his Talk page. (and worse: he removes text in current threads). There is also a formal Mediation request from User: Bill shannon in regards to DFA. (ah: you are in on that as well)

But what struck me the most was his 'its my job and it will never change' statement (not sure if it is still at his current talk page - but if not you can find it HERE (comment: That's my job, and it will never change. DreamFieldArts 13:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC))

After that point in time I also can be blamed for coming close to personal attack: although I do think that it must be clear that I'm exaggerating and being sarcastic; but I started to loose my patience and could hardly believe what I was reading.

I do refer to the 5 pillars of Wiki, and especially Assume Good Faith: and also with DFA I do assume that he is just doing his best but if he truly thinks that his role as NPPer is the same as a teacher who rips up a paper made by one of his students because it is crap I really don't think he is fit for the job. If my first article had been controlled by DGA I probably would have stopped contributing anything to Wiki ever again. He even tells that he has experienced the same thing, so he knows the feeling, and in the same sentence he says it his his job to 'rip up a paper' and say that it 'is crap'.

I do appreciate that DGG is not the nicest job in the world; but I do think that a DGGer should be very aware about 'new users' (I'm not in that catagory: but as he doesn't seem to do much research when he nominates a SD - other then on articles about persons to check if they had a TV show on top of their 'main' job....); so I can hardly imagine that he checks if the user who wrote the article he norminates for SD is a new user or not.

Could you as (far more) experienced Wikipedian give him some good guidelines and tips: as said, I do assume that DGA handles in good faith: but the way he is working now is really not healthy. Thanks a lot, Tonkie (talk) 20:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah: I see that you already contacted him and that he did extensively answered to your comments. Thanks :-)

While I was writing above letter to you I did see that you already contacted him on his role as DGGer but because above text was nearing completion I decided to post in anyway.' Tonkie (talk) 20:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

New role: Assistant NewPagePatroller

Hi DGG,
As a follow-up on my remarks I made about DFA: would it be a good idea if new NPPs would first become an 'assistant NPP' where he rates an article and if he thinks it is indeed a candidate for SpeedyDeletion that he uses a hidden version of the template Speedy Deletion Request.

What I envision is that in stead of placing the 'real' Speedy Deletion template on the page with all the consequences (a message on the Talk page of the contributer, a huge text at the top of the nominated article etc) it would just be visable to more experienced NPPers: they would then check if the assistant NPP / NPP in training has indeed spotted the correct articles for SD and if he uses the correct reasons for deletion. If not the experienced patroller explains to the assistant patroller what went wrong; give him feedback how to correctly recognize SD candidates etc. Once the aNPP reaches a consistant quality and a low rate of incorrect nominations he can then be promoted to a real patroller: in this way new NPP's can learn the job in a correct manner and safely make the errors evey new starting NPPer will make. Only if people who write the articles would specifically look for the hidden SD template would know that a NPP in training has analysed the page: when you are not looking for the hidden SD template you never know that it was considered as a SD candidate.

And you can extend this system to other markings as well: not only SD candidates but also the other ratings/tagging used by the NPPers could get a hidden version of them. Although this might seem as a lot of extra work for the mentor of the NPP in training; it does provide us (the entire Wikipedia community) a great service: well trained NPPers so that the amount of crap finding its way to the Encyclopedia while we prevent damages due to over-active (or the opposite: far to easy) NPPers that still need to find their way in analysing new articles in a corect and consistent way. It does ask a bit from the experienced NPPers as they will have to take a potential NPPer under his wings and be his mentor during his (or her) training period. But I do think that the pay-out is worth it: Wiki does need a fresh supply of volunteers who do some of the more unthankful jobs - but when you setup a good training and monitor/buddy program you will be rewarded by getting good NPPers on board. (And such a program where a NPP gets a good training and support at the start of his career might endorse people to volunteer for the job: I can imagine that some people are put off of being a NPP because they are afraid that they would make errors and then get blamed for it).

At the same time it might also put people off volunteering for the role: I have people in mind that don't want any monitoring from an experienced user because they know of themselves that their opinion is right in the first place - and that their rating if an aricle is Wiki-worthy or not is rule. (Those are the same people that want to be Wiki moderator as it gives them some extra "power buttons", not because they are really interested in improving Wiki according to the reached consencus on what is a good article but rated to their own view on whats good and what isnt. And imho: if such a buddy/training program for new NPPers would put of this catagory of people from even applying for the job it is another win !!

I hope I made my idea/proposal clear enough for you to understand: if not, I'd be happy to work it out in detail and then send it to you. But such a worked-out explination of the process would come in the form of a Word/OpenOffice document with embedded flow-charts. But if you would like to receive such a worked out process just let me know.

Hope to hear from you, Tonkie (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

There have been considerable discussions about how to do this, and , like your suggestion , most of the suggestions have been in the direction of requiring some qualification for NPP. Ideally, this would be without adding any additional bureaucracy to the already over-bureaucratic system. It is not just Prod: I think experience is showing that improper Prod and especially AfD templates are at least as much harm as speedy to the people who receive them. Not necessarily for over-deleting articles--in principle admins are supposed to be careful in what they speedy, check carefully all expired prods, and come to correct conclusions at AfD. Admins do not necessarily do any of these very well==the error rate is at least 5% and probably more like 10-15% in each direction for each process (5% might be the best we can do on average, 15% is much too high) And I am equally concerned about things that do not get caught by the inexperienced, especially copyvio.

We do not necessarily need a hidden speedy template nor would I advocate one: first, many improperly tagged articles get untagged by people simply noticing them--the cultural change to always check the edit page would not be easy, especially to newcomers (most inexperienced readers are not even aware there is a talk p.) Second, there are many grossly inappropriate articles and we need to be sure to catch them and not miss the notices. .

Most of the discussions are about having the equivalent of a special user right for marking Patrolled. For examp[le, a fairly restrictive condition might be Auto[patrolled status; a less restrictive one, 3 months and 1000 edits. Expdrience has shown that at the very least a full month and several hundred edits is necessary.

we already do have a way of dealing with people who do not want to be monitored: we monitor them. This is an open wiki, and people who edit inappropriately, whether at NPP or anywhere else, attract attention. When I do NPP, it is primarily to check on the work of other new page patrollers, as well as people with auto-confirmed who use that privilege improperly. When I became an administrator, it was for the stated primary reason of looking for deleted articles that could be rescued. We also already have a mentoring system, WP:MENTOR --anyone who wants can ask, and people do ask; I just added a mention there about the possibility.

As Wikipedia gets larger, change gets more difficult -- but also more necessary. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe just to clarify my suggestions - in regards to the 'hidden' speedy-deltion' template: I used this term as I envisioned something similar as the 'hidden catagories': not anything to be done in secrecy and/or to avoid ir being visable; but as a means to 'tag' them by the aNPPer: he/she would tag an article of which he thinks it should be deleted by adding the 'hidden' template: and maybe you could use the existing technique of hidden catagory: just as a technical means of the mentor/buddy or (other) fully qualified DGG's to find the marked/tagged potential SD requests by sorting on this hidden catagory. So it was meant as using existing Wiki technology without having any direct visable impact on the page in question. But as often, there are more ways to Rome: the aDGG could also just keep record of the pages he checked and the articles he thinks should be tagged for SD or 'normal' deletion etc. This could be done on a special page. But using the existing technique of hidden catagory is imho a nice technical way of doing it which is relative easy to implement such a scheme without adding burocracy or demanding new processes/technology in the background.

Just as an afterthought you mention another important issue: people who don't want to be monitoe. I see often that there are people who claim/think that because WP is an open encyclopedia that also means that there are no rules (or to be more precise: there are no rules for them, while there are loads of rules for others (namely the rules these kind of people set out for the others). Out friend DGA -maybe with the best intentions- has some of the 'properties' of such a person: his rule is law and other rules do not apply to him. Witch such a wide userbase you will always have those people. They shout murder when you limit them (eg block etc) and claim that you are limiting their freedom of speech, but when give the chance they will block anyone who doesn't think the way he/she does (in the country I left we have a politician working that way: he claims that freedom of speech is limitless and that he is entitled to say anything he likes about other people and entire [foreign] communities - but when someone else tries to make a (very valid) comparisson between him and some guy from Austria who ruled Germany from 1932 onwards he runs to the judge to have such thoughts banned. And when he was proscuted he told (as member of parlement) that he didn't believe nor respect the law-system anymore if he wouldn't be aquited. And at the same time he calls the Islamic communities inferior to our society because our (western) society has such an independent and reliable rule of law. (And again: he want to end that independance of the judges by firing judge after 5 years if he doesn't hand out strict punishments; but those strict punishments should only be handed out to what he sees as crimes (and preferably give far stronger punishments to people from a Muslim background).... (If you can't follow it anymore - not your fault: I can't either)....

Anyway: I do fully understand that we do need NPPs, but we also need to make sure NPPs work according to a high standard: preventing good articles to be marked as SD candidates and at the same time preventing bad articles to be passed as checked. Even when an article 'only' being marked for SD (or even slow/normal deletion) is really very de-motivating and newcomers who find their very 1st article to be marked for deletion is a near guarentee to never see another article from that author again: even if the article never got deleted. I do think that we do need a quality control on NPPs : or a requirement in the sense of that a potential NPP has to have experience in writing (new) article himself or by being assistant NPPer first.

I'd be more then prepared to think along with you (as a group: not you as a person) how to build in checks and guarentees, but I don't have the time to become a NPPer myself: but I would be happy to help out in Q-control. I'm already a mentor on request" and was asked once to help a new author to find his way on Wiki - but there is not much demand for a voluntary mentor. I would however be prepared to be a mentor/help for a potential NPP.

But I think my best assistance I can offer is helping to work out a quality assurance protocol for NPPs or similar roles without adding extra burocracy to Wiki. If you want to change ideas/thought with you and/or a group of people that think about quality assurance for Wiki just contact me directly using email. Tonkie (talk) 07:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure where I referred to me being a coach/mentor thinking that I was role/job as mentor/coach. But I do this on the Dutch Coaching program. Tonkie (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage engagement strategy released

Hey guys!

I'm dropping you a note because you filled out the New Page Patrol survey, and indicated you'd be interested in being contacted about follow-up work. This is to notify you that we've finally released both the initial documentation about the project and also the engagement strategy, which sets out how we plan to work with the community on this. Please give both a read, and leave any comments or suggestions you have on the talkpage, on my talkpage, or in my inbox - okeyeswikimedia.org.

It's awesome to finally get to start work on this! :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 02:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks...

...for your contribution to the article NXIVM!Chrisrus (talk) 17:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Page Triage newsletter

Hey guys!

Thanks to all of you who have commented on the New Page Triage talkpage. If you haven't had a chance yet, check it out; we're discussing some pretty interesting ideas, both from the Foundation and the community, and moving towards implementing quite a few of them :).

In addition, on Tuesday 13th March, we're holding an office hours session in #wikimedia-office on IRC at 19:00 UTC (11am Pacific time). If you can make it, please do; we'll have a lot of stuff to show you and talk about, including (hopefully) a timetable of when we're planning to do what. If you can't come, for whatever reason, let me know on my talkpage and I'm happy to send you the logs so you can get an idea of what happened :). Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who attended our first office hours session; the logs can be found here, if you missed it, and we should be holding a second one on Thursday, 22 March 2012 at 18:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. I hope to see you all there :).

In the meantime, I have greatly expanded the details available at Wikipedia:New Page Triage: there's a lot more info about precisely what we're planning. If you have ideas, and they aren't listed there, bring them up and I'll pass them on to the developers for consideration in the second sprint. And if you know anyone who might be interested in contributing, send them there too!

Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Colonel Warden

Apologies if you are already aware, but I though you would like to know that Colonel Warden is the victim of a highly unjustified and unreasonable indefinite block. There is a discussion about this on the ANI board: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Colonel Warden.Rangoon11 (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

he's now been unblocked by another ed., with essentially unanimous agreement; it now remains to deal with the admin doing the block. I am a little puzzled, because much though I disagree with that admin both in detail and general approach to Wikipedia, this is much weirder on several levels than anything I recall from any admin: blatant involvement; incident 8 days old; block for a reason given in deprodding when any deprod reason is acceptable; block for the reason being false when it was both technically correct and totally justified; continuing lack of understanding that it was wrong; intention of the admin to continue to pursue the grievance against the editor; continuing violation of NPA even in the discussion. DGG ( talk ) 22:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes all very odd. And the endless comments about "deceit" on the ANI have merely served to confirm beyond any possible doubt that there is a highly personal aspect to all of this. The individual in question has obviously never heard, or at least heeded, the phrase "when you're in a hole, stop digging". Rangoon11 (talk) 00:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

help triage some feedback

Hey guys.

I appreciate this isn't quite what you signed up for, but I figured as people who are already pretty good at evaluating whether material is useful or not useful through Special:NewPages, you might be interested :). Over the last few months we've been developing the new Article Feedback Tool, which features a free text box. it is imperative that we work out in advance what proportion of feedback is useful or not so we can adjust the design accordingly and not overwhelm you with nonsense.

This is being done through the Feedback Evaluation System (FES), a tool that lets editors run through a stream of comments, selecting their value and viability, so we know what type of design should be promoted or avoided. We're about to start a new round of evaluations, beginning with an office hours session tomorrow at 18:00 UTC. If you'd like to help preemptively kill poor feedback, come along to #wikimedia-office and we'll show you how to use the tool. If you can't make it, send me an email at okeyeswikimedia.org or drop a note on my talkpage, and I'm happy to give you a quick walkthrough in a one-on-one session :).

All the best, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I am willing to do at least one batch, and I think I understand how to do it from the wikipage. But perhaps I need to know something that isn't obvious, so I am emailing you. I wish you hadn't tried to summarize things using graphics, but that doesn't affect the ability to do the rating, which works via checkboxes. DGG ( talk ) 21:53, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Please help out at the Paid Editor Help page

While not a huge backlog yet, we're getting to it on the Paid Editor Help page. The sections that need replies include Colin Digiaro, Guy Bavli, Strayer University, Stevens Institute of Technology, and a general backlog in the Request Edits category. If you could help in any of these sections (primarily the first four), I would be really grateful. This notification is going out to a number of Wikiproject Cooperation members in the hopes that we can clear out all of the noted sections. And feel free to respond to a section and help out even if someone else had already responded there. The more eyes we get on a specific request, the more sure we can be on the neutrality of implementing it. Thanks! Silverseren^C 03:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help. We need more members to be involved on the Paid Editor Help page if we're ever going to get that process to work. Silverseren^C 01:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

New page patrolling; DreamFieldArts

As per your discussion with me at 01:29, on 9 March 2012 (UTC), you said, "I am giving you a two week ban, running through March 23, from new page patrol, from page moves without clear prior consensus, and from tagging articles for deletion except in cases of clear vandalism or copyvio." I took this very seriously, as I knew I was doing something extremely wrong. Knowing the only thing I could do was to just stop new page patrolling, as that seemed to be where the problem was diverting from. As I have read from some of your discussions^{1, 2, 3}, you say that I am doing much "better at my job," and Tonkie agreed with this statement, and I felt very complacent about it. Since I am becoming better at what I am doing on here, on 00:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC) I will reclaim my position as a new page patroller. Even though I am very avid about being able to be a new page patroller again, I know I need to be careful about what I do. Now for the first few days, I will patrol lightly, until I feel that by success rate is 95% or higher. Being a new page patroller on Wikipedia is a very important job, and should be taken seriously. With out new page patrollers, there would be havoc on here. (spam, hoaxs, etc.) If you believe that I have done one thing wrong, please do not hesitate to tell me, and to handle the situation appropriately. DreamFieldArts^Talk 21:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I really appreciate that you let me know, and I'll keep in touch with what you do. Remember that part of the job is to not miss the really major problems. Many promotional articles are in fact copyvios, and that's always a sound reason for deletion. A page marked as patrolled without sufficient checking is worse than not patrolling it. DGG ( talk ) 22:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Education Under Fire

Hi. Is it time to reconsider a stand alone article? See Baha'i_Institute_for_Higher_Education#Education_Under_Fire probably from the "Developing a response" section. EUF is by far the primary response but there have been others. Smkolins (talk) 12:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

why ask for trouble? DGG ( talk ) 02:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me there is an imbalance in the article - it's about BIHE yet a good half is about responding to the persecution about BIHE. And the content on the response is sufficient for it's own article. No? Smkolins (talk) 10:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

A.L.A. catalog

In case you didn't see this, a new article you might be interested in. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 11:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Stella Parton discography

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Stella Parton discography. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Strayer University

On Talk:Strayer University, you mentioned that you wanted to make some edits to the draft version created by Hamilton83 found at User:Hamilton83/my sandbox. Were you still planning to make those changes? Would you like some time to do that, or is it okay if I move over draft into mainspace? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll get there today. DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Not yet ready--see my comments there. DGG ( talk ) 19:19, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

A big NPT update

Hey! Big update on what the developers have been working on, and what is coming up:

coding

• Fixes for the "moved pages do not show up in Special:NewPages" and "pages created from redirects do not show up in Special:NewPages" bugs have been completed and signed off on. Unfortunately we won't be able to integrate them into the existing version, but they will be worked into the Page Triage interface.
• Coding has been completed on three elements; the API for displaying metadata about the article in the "list view", the ability to keep the "patrol" button visible if you edit an article before patrolling it, and the automatic removal of deleted pages from the queue. All three are awaiting testing but otherwise complete.

All other elements are either undergoing research, or about to have development started. I appreciate this sounds like we've not got through much work, and truthfully we're a bit disappointed with it as well; we thought we'd be going at a faster pace :(. Unfortunately there seems to be some 24-72 hour bug sweeping the San Francisco office at the moment, and at one time or another we've had several devs out of it. It's kind of messed with workflow.

Stuff to look at

We've got a pair of new mockups to comment on that deal with the filtering mechanism; this is a slightly updated mockup of the list view, and this is what the filtering tab is going to look like. All thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome on the NPT talkpage :). I'd also like to thank the people who came to our last two office hours sessions; the logs will be shortly available here.

I've also just heard that the first functional prototype for enwiki will be deployed mid-April! Really, really stoked to see this happening :). We're finding out if we can stick something up a bit sooner on prototype.wiki or something.

I appreciate there may be questions or suggestions where I've said "I'll find out and get back to you" and then, uh. not ;p. I sincerely apologise for that: things have been a bit hectic at this end over the last few weeks. But if you've got anything I've missed, drop me a line and I'll deal with it! Further questions or issues to the usual address. Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Strayer University

DGG, I saw your note last week that you intended to return to the Strayer University draft this weekend: have you had a chance to look yet at my response to your questions on the Strayer University Talk page? I have made some updates to the draft based on your feedback. Let me know what you think. --Hamilton83 (talk) 17:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

tonight. DGG ( talk ) 18:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool updates

Hey all. My regular(ish) update on what's been happening with the new Article Feedback Tool.

Hand-coding

As previously mentioned, we're doing a big round of hand-coding to finalise testing :). I've been completedly bowled over by the response: we have 20 editors participating, some old and some new, which is a new record for this activity. Many thanks to everyone who has volunteered so far!

Coding should actively start on Saturday, when I'll be distributing individualised usernames and passwords to everyone. If you haven't spoken to me but would be interested in participating, either drop me a note on my talkpage or email okeyeswikimedia.org. If you have spoken to me, I'm very sorry for the delay :(. There were some toolserver database issues beyond our control (which I think the Signpost discussed) that messed with the tool.

New designs and office hours

Our awesome designers have been making some new logos for the feedback page :) Check out the oversighter view and the monitor view to get complete coverage; all opinions, comments and suggestions are welcome on the talkpage :).

We've also been working on the Abuse Filter plugin for the tool; this will basically be the same as the existing system, only applied to comments. Because of that, we're obviously going to need slightly different filters, because different things will need to be blocked :). We're holding a special office hours session tomorrow at 22:00 UTC to discuss it. If you're a regex nut, existing abuse filter writer, or simply interested in the feedback tool and have suggestions, please do come along :).

I'm pretty sure that's it; if I've missed anything or you have any additional queries, don't hesitate to contact me! Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

List of Golden Plate Awardees Article

Hi DGG. I received your message about recommending the Golden Plate list article for deletion. Please tell me what the G11 criterion is upon which you rely. Before posting the article, I researched Lists policies, which appeared consistent with this article. So I need to see specifically what you are referring to. ThanksCoaster92 (talk) 03:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I consider it promotional for the A of A. This is to some extent a holistic judgement, requiring looking at the overall effect of the article. Remember, I did not nominate it for speedy, but left it for the community. They will either agree with me, or they won't, and that will decide the issue. While we're talking about it , have you any COI with this organization? DGG ( talk ) 03:46, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You were mentioned at WP:EAR regarding something to do with university professor notability

here, in fact. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in there and, frankly, I wish I had gone on to say what you ended up saying there. Interestingly, there is a dispute at DRN on which your comment that the "most troublesome tag-related problem is edit warring over NPOV tags" directly bears. Your input there might turn the trick like it did at EA. (And, BTW, I hope that I did not misattribute the idea that professors are inherently notable to you. If I did, I apologize.) Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

All full professors at major research universities have sufficiently demonstrated that they are recognized experts in their subject to meet WP:PROF,and that WP:PROF is an alternative to WP:GNG. This is not a formal rule, but almost all AfD have had this result, except in fields where people here have doubts about the rigor, such as Education. (Major: in the US, Research Extensive in the Carnegie Classification + schools of similar rank; elsewhere, similar level). The rationale for this is that this is the basis on which people are promoted to such rank at such universities, and their judgment is more reliable than ours.)

For those at lower level institutions, this is not automatic, and the judgment goes by individual cases; the rationale is that in such institutions people are often promoted to this rank based on lesser accomplishments or for other qualities than being a recognized expert in their subject.

For Associate professors, automatic notability is not generally accepted, but is determined case by case. AfD results vary, but imho are usually reasonable. Personally, I think it could be extended to them on similar grounds, but this has not had consensus. ("Associate" = the US rank, and corresponding ranks elsewhere)

For Assistant professors, and corresponding ranks outside the US, it similarly goes case by case, and almost all AfD results have been "not notable". I agree with this.

Additionally, in the humanities most full professors in the highest level universities-- ,-- have written two or more books that have reviews in RSs for notability, and thus meet WP:AUTHOR. In the very highest level universities, this applies to Associate professors also. In other fields, where tenure usually depends on articles, not books, this doesn't work as frequently, but it sometimes does. Similarly, in the fine arts, many people at various academic levels will qualify by WP:CREATIVE.

For that matter, if one argued on the basis of the GNG, we could find for almost anyone who has published one or more important papers that the 2 or more of the papers referencing them contain substantial discussions of their work. This would require examining the actual papers, as the mere fact of being cited does not necessarily or even usually mean there is substantial discussion of the work. If I really tried, I could probably find this for many people even at the post-doctoral level. As this result is contradictory to most people's intuitive feelings on the appropriate contents of an encyclopedia (as distinct from a faculty directory), it shows imo the uselessness of the GNG in this subject. Before the WP:PROF standard became accepted, I did use it when it matched my intuitive view. If we return to GNG-worship, I will go back to using it.

Where the GNG is used here appropriately , is for people at any level whose work happens to strike the fancy of newspaper writers. I don't consider most such people notable as academics, but since the public will read the news accounts and want some objective information, it's reasonable to have the articles here. (I have sometimes objected to isolated news accounts as being based on PR if it seems really counter-intuitive). DGG ( talk ) 17:39, Apr 24. 2012

Lists of self-publishing companies

Inan effort to improve sourcing in our articles, me and a couple other editors have created two lists of self-publishing companies:

• List of self-publishing companies in article space for notable self-publishing houses
• WP:List of self-publishing companies in Wikipedia space for notable and non-notable self-publishing houses

It's our hope that by maintaining such lists, it will be easier for editors to identify self-published books. In a discussion at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedia reliability talk page, The Blade of the Northern Lights said that you and another editor know vanity publishers very well.[2] If you can provide any assistance with these two lists, it would be greatly appreciated. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

a very useful project--it makes sense to have both lists, & I will add to the WP list as I see them, I shall check them both; because these can be considered potentially derogatory listings, they must have good references. It may be necessary to qualify the statements in some cases. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Quest, that is an excellent idea; DGG, that is an excellent caveat. BTW, Cambridge Scholars Publishing wants to publish the proceedings of your last faculty meeting/conference/Jane Austen Book Club. You'll get a letter on really nice looking letterhead in the next week or two. Quest, this goes for you as well. And for everyone, really. Drmies (talk) 04:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

National Youth Strings Academy

COuld you look at the contributors to that article, and block or ask for name changes or protect or whatever? I'm plum out of time today but people editing the National Youth Strings Academy (NYSA) page with NYSA in their usernames seems like a problem. Note though, that i haven't looked closely enough to see if its good faith, bad result, or simply promotion. Also, if it's now good enough, feel free to take off my prod. TY. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't see they understand about usernames, so I tried to explain it to them--on the articvle talk p, & their individual ones also. There is currently no usable sources for notability in the article, but given the very distinguished sponsorship, it needs a further search. I'll look at it again tomorrow. DGG ( talk ) 03:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool office hours

Hey DGG; just a quick note to let you know that we'll be holding an Office Hours session at 18:00 UTC (don't worry, I got the time right ;p) on 4th May in #wikimedia-office. This is to show off the almost-finished feedback page and prep it for a more public release; I'm incredibly happy to have got to this point :). Hope to see you there! Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 03:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Tropes in Agatha Christie's novels

Hi. Glad the article has been, for now, restored to its former glory. I was thinking about AFDing it as it was worthless as a stub. Unfortunately, while I read almost all her mysteries I don't have most of the actual paperbacks I bought or collected aeons ago. I do have a couple or so paperbacks and I'll do my best. Yours, Quis separabit? 16:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I finally found the old paperbacks; there were more than I thought. Is it ISBN#s and page numbers you're needing? Yours, Quis separabit? 20:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts

What do you think of this: User talk:Dennis Brown/Thoughts. Feel free to reply there if you choose. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:33, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

The actual danger from an admin is not article-writing but sanitizing; an admin who avoids editing an article can protect it in a preferred version, or chase away those who would change it.) Otherwise, the danger is from any editor using their prestige to influence the acceptance of content, and no editor who has prestige can avoid that. Therefore all paid editing by experienced people here is dangerous: the only safe way to use our skills is to teach the general public. I will no longer help paid editors with articles or approve it for them, because I would be using not only my skills, which is fair, but my prestige also. Rather, let them write as they see fit, and I shall comment as I see fit. As any teacher knows, while you cannot stop plagiarism, you can require quality. DGG ( talk ) 15:41, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

• Sanitizing is a tough one to enforce, as it isn't always obvious. We all have different thresholds for what is acceptable without references, for example. I'm not a fan of paid editing, but part of my concern is the perception of non-admins, who are more important than all the admins combined when it comes to content creation. If we don't draw clear lines, we lower the trust in the admin system overall. And there is no prestige like admin prestige when it comes to editing, in the eyes of the non-admin. Many non-admins are very much afraid to revert a bold edit of an admin, or even speak out about an admin, either assuming "they know best" or fear of retribution. I never was, but you always thought that I sought out trouble unnecessarily anyway ;) That we undermind trust even more, this is a great concern of mine. It is already bad enough. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

  and thus there is a problem for an admin who does paid editing at all--any of his work in the field will be under suspicion. As an arb said informally at a recent meeting, though probably an admin would not be demopped for doing paid editing, that admin would lose a lot of respect and effectiveness. DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

• I would agree with "No admin can be a paid editor" in theory, but then it would just happen without disclosure. Really, an admin shouldn't, even if a non-admin does. Pick one, a paycheck or the mop. And while you and I will look down on admins taking money, the average editor would only see the "admin" button on their page, and would still hesitate to revert. Most editors don't know the reputation of any admin, and think of admins like they would in a forum: the guys that can block you. Most don't bother and are not interested in the political side of Wikipedia. I wasn't even recently, until I saw some of the side effects. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Self-publishing

Hi, we are still hoping you would make some suggestions on Talk:List_of_self-publishing_companies#evidence. Your help will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 02:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

haven't forgotten: I will get there tomorrow or this weekend. DGG ( talk ) 05:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Stevens Institute of Technology page

Hi DGG, I saw that my original note on your talk page was archived, so I'm adding this to make sure it doesn't get lost from your radar as there is clearly a lot of incoming requests on your page! This is the link to the latest correspondence, ready for your review. Talk:Stevens Institute of Technology#Updating_page_along_guidelines_for_college_and_university_articles

Thank you! QueenCity11 (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

haven't forgotten: I will get there tomorrow or this weekend. DGG ( talk ) 05:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Great, thank you! QueenCity11 (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

"I haven't forgotten. I'll get there soon. DGG ( talk ) 19:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the update - very much appreciated! QueenCity11 (talk) 20:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I still haven't forgotten. Some discussions this last week were rather long to deal with, & I'm a little behind. DGG ( talk ) 03:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

No problem - I appreciate that you have been keeping me posted. Yesterday I spent some time updating dead reference links since Stevens switched over to a new website. Thank you again. QueenCity11 (talk) 13:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi DGG -- Just wanted to check if you have a sense of when you may be able to review. I am getting pressed for an update and want to report back with the latest. Thank you again! QueenCity11 (talk) 16:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I shall try to get to it this evening. DGG ( talk ) 16:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

A cute kitten for you sir!

Just wanna thank you sir for being unbiased and allowing my page (List of telenovelas of GMA Network) to exist. Again, thank you, sir and God bless:)

Doubledutch781 (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Boundary 2

Hi, could you perhaps have a look at this article? Some editors are trying to insert what I think is unsourced and unwarranted assertions, but perhaps I'm wrong. The journal is also included in many databases that, I think, would not include it if it weren't peer-reviewed, although I admit that the journal website doesn't say so explicitly. Your opinion would be welcome. Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 13:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

A Duke University Press humanities journal of extremely high reputation, from the most important US publisher of such journals. As it contains invited manuscripts only, it does not do peer review of submissions. I do not know to what degree the invited material is reviewed and edited--I imagine by the editors themselves, rather than invited peers of the authors. Humanities journals have various variant of editorial control, and this is a not uncommon method . The proper term I think is "Peer review or the equivalent editorial control" DGG ( talk ) 18:12, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

But what do you think of the remark "It is thus a closed, in-house journal. The interests and networks of the editorial board determine what ends up in the issue." that several editors insist on including? That sounds rather negative to me, but each time that I remove it, somebody puts it back. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, just stumbling across this string. How about: "Article selections and other content choices are made by the editorial board." This reminds me of COI issues where bias content needs to be corrected rather than omitted. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 03:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I know of no journal where "the interests and networks of the editorial board " or even just the editor in chief do not in considerable part determine the contents. The problem is that saying this so directly can easily be misinterpreted by those who have an overly simplistic view of the objectivity of academic journals & my preliminary thought is that King's wording is a good one. DGG ( talk ) 05:12, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Good point and good suggestion (thanks King!), I have made this change, let's hope it sticks. Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion

Hi DGG. I just did a bunch of my first AfD discussions.

What I found was there were a lot of cruddy advert articles with no sources, yet sources were available. The articles technically could be made appropriate for Wikipedia, but in practice it's unlikely anyone will make the effort. It's more likely to create a headache for everyone edit-warring with a poor COI advert spammer for an article of only minor value to Wikipedia. Yet Wikipedia policy is to keep articles if reliable sources exist rather than if they are likely to ever be used.

I'm perplexed by how to handle the dynamic. I noticed a comment on one AfD suggesting your vote was motivated by a need to discourage poor-quality COI spam and I thought I would just ping you to get your response. Am I way off the mark here? I'm perplexed by what is the best practices, to punish COIs pushing advert or uphold policy to the letter. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 08:36, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I would say that such articles, if the subject is notable, can just be stubbed to a sentence or a paragraph, with one or a few of the better references attached. Then it can be worked on from there, from scratch as it were. Silverseren^C 08:41, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's one of those things different editors have different opinions on. I'm not sure what mine is. I would also like to discourage blatant advert and not have to police thousands of articles on barely notable organizations. However, if the COI editor leaves it alone after we stub it, it would be of some minor improvement to Wikipedia. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 14:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing that a person may not want to write about, and a good predictor of what someone might be interested in is that someone else is interested also. Therefore every weak article are not just capable of improvement, but likely to be improved, and most articles get improved eventually. This is not a short-term project. Suppose something might be of interest to one person in a million: Wikipedia gets hundreds of million visitors a year, so the problem becomes getting them not only to read, but to improve, articles.

The world has realized that it is so desirable to have an article at Wikipedia, that there is no possible way we can avoid having to police not just thousands, but quite literally millions of weak articles. If we throw out the weak existing ones to avoid checking them, we'll be dealing with the same ones coming in back again.

The best way to focus attention on improving weak and outdated articles (and about 90% of our content has become outdated) is to avoid focusing energy on valueless activities here. Every trivial dispute that escalates because of the hostile nature of internet exchanges is harmful--harmful not just in the impression it gives but in the efforts of good people necessary to resolve it. Every debate about whether a borderline article is notable or not is detrimental--the effort would be better spent improving it, and on quickly removing the actually harmful. We have three rapidly achievable ways to improve here, if we have the will to do them: decrease in hostility and uncivil behavior by removing those who do it and by experienced people setting good examples, with emphasis on increasing cooperation and decreasing use of the inherently confrontational WP:BRD cycle; clear fixed subject-based inclusion criteria to decrease conflict over deletion by providing a clear basis for quickly deleting or keeping articles; definitively resolving conflict disputes with wide attention as we definitively resolve inclusion disputes--long AfDs are often really debates about appropriate content within articles .

there is nothing at Wikipedia that cannot be improved by wider participation of increasing numbers of new editors. We will get that by making it easier to edit and easier to start articles. People who have been here for a while lose the initial excitement at being personally able to affect the content of the only universally visible publication ever; it is the newcomers who will maintain our vigor. We are not making progress here: while dramatic improvements in the editing interface are forthcoming, it seems we are about to adopt a policy which will drastically decrease the ability for newcomers to write new articles. There is nothing more important than people. Content is relatively trivial: what we do not improve today we can improve tomorrow, but a person once discouraged almost never returns. We have projects to write better forms, but we will never write an adequate form--we need projects to educate people without them. We have excellent bots for routine tasks, and effective edit filters, but we seem unaware that this is a human enterprise requiring friendly personal spontaneous human communication. DGG ( talk ) 15:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks DGG. I'm trying to digest this. I think what you're saying is to just fix the articles instead of focus on the bureaucracy. So instead of focusing so much on the AfD process, maybe I should just improve the article. Am I on the mark there? I sort of wanted to make sure I was doing it right before doing too many AfDs. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 20:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes. In terms of direct effect, the best thing anyone can do here is improve quality of articles.

But there are indirect effects also: the most obvious is the need to keep articles here long enough that they can be fixed.

A much less direct one but I think the most important quantitatively in terms of the ultimate amount of improvement per effort expended, is the need to continue to attract new editors and get them involved. This requires both not discouraging them by rejecting their work, and not discouraging them by excessive bureaucratic or technical difficulties.

But what an individual should choose to do is affected by what the individual is best at, where the need is greatest. and what they enjoy doing. that last factor is perhaps the critical one, because we are all volunteers and will only be here if we get satisfaction from our work. DGG ( talk ) 16:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

To tell you the truth COI and company articles is what interests me the most, but after going through AfCs and request edits for just one day, the current state of affairs just makes me feel bitter and angry. To see someone submit a request edit, after overhauling their entire article, removing controversy and adding advert. Or donating my time to help a COI in AfC, who refuses to follow my very simple instructions and goes bat crazy over a peacock tag that he won't even leave up for 1 day while I ask the editor that posted it. I already feel like I hate COIs. I don't think it's good for my health. It sounds like a good idea to help people, but they use direct editing as a threat "if you don't XYZ, I'm going to remove it in two hours." They feel empowered in a way they would never behave if working with the New York Times. Even instances where COIs appear to be resolved and collaborative, three months later they come back and censor the entire section they had just collaborated on. No wonder the community feels how they do. I'm already growing bitter :-( User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 16:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Put me in a slightly better mood ;-) User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 01:32, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

We need to re-evaluate how we do things there at afc. the standards for article approval seem to be very low. I myself would never approve an article of much lower quality than I would write myself, but many people accept articles that are at best barely possible. And it is much more difficult to guide someone to write a good article than to take over yourself and just fix it, but they learn more if you guide them, though as all teachers and students both know, it can be a very painful processs. Personally, I'm getting to think we might as well let them do manual direct editing, and just look at the results strictly. One process stream, through which everything passes. But the need to watch articles is a real problem, because we all of us who know how to do it have many more than we can effectively watch. I do go back over my deletion log every few months to see anything that turns black again--about half the time its OK, like a good redirect, and about half the time not. The problem of maintaining quality in a project this size was never realised 10 years ago. Elsewhere in the world too, I've seen so many project at all levels that start off great, but are difficult to maintain. Entropy never forgets, and maintenance always increases until its cost is more than the cost of construction. At some point in the future, WP, like any project, will get so top heavy we will need to start over on some better foundation that we do not yet envision. The published and social process people thought it would have happened already, and are still trying to figure out why it didn't collapse at 1 million articles and then 2 million (I think the answer in part is that we developed enclaves; you can fight entropy in an enclave by putting in work & letting things get even worse elsewhere) The other part is the continued ability to interest and attract very highly qualified people with great amounts of time to use, and willingness to use it here. I've done many times more for the diffusion of knowledge in 5 years here as a volunteer e than the previous 35 as a professional. I look on my training in science and librarianship and rteaching and administration and publishing as just the a preparation for this . DGG ( talk ) 04:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Someone at AfC was actually commenting their standards were too high, leading to a huge backlog, when the point is merely to publish articles that would survive an AfD. They also commented that 90% of submissions are never published, suggesting that blocking articles from creation was their mission as much as creating them. Do you think we should be AfDing this one? Or if not, what can we do to make it less advert? I've only done a dozen or two AfC submissions and I found the process extremely efficient. But I'm just learning, so humbly interested in your feedback. I noticed we consistently had different answers in AfDs and it's interesting to be on the other side.

On the other hand, the prevailing wisdom of pro-paid editing advocates is that the community has an obligation to help COIs and in a hurry, quick, before they edit themselves! As a result, many posts in the {{request edit}} queue or paid editor help board lead to volunteers swooping down and spawning vast discussions on content of relatively little value. This works to make a short-term point, but it's not scalable were the process done en-masse. I've been somewhat duplicating the AfC process like this[3][4] to clear out the queue. What do you think? User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 07:57, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

That prevailing wisdom is exactly what I am disagreeing with. I think it produces very low quality barely possible articles. Letting them edit directly produces either acceptable articles if somebody helps them, or rejected articles from which they might learn something. I am faced with two choice: one is to spend my time u-grading this afc-passed articles, and thus single-handedly work indefinitely to restore credibility to a system ; or start looking for arguments for deletion of such articles, which means expanded the interpretation of what we consider promotional writing that is unimprovable and needs deletion, or narrow the limits of what sort of references we accept for articles on organizations & people connected with them, or possibly trying to change the deletion criteria otherwise. I have made comments at a few current AfDs that show my try at this approach. In other words, the flood of junk has done to me what similar things have turned to others, turned me into a deletionist. DGG ( talk ) 14:25, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I would be interested in your opinion on the CREWE/paid editing/COI dynamic. I noticed I have a strong keep lean compared to others in the AfD discussion, which led to a couple being relisted. I guess WP:CORP is a higher bar than I realized. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 03:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

My solution is entirely orthoodox: to enforce high standards on articles. There are multiple ways of going about it, and the total independence of every individual editor here ensures that everything anyone thinks a good idea will go on simultaneously. I have no way of imposing higher standards on afc; there is no way of imposing on me to accept lower. If people do not agree on an article, the community decides at AfD, and the result will be unavoidable inconsistent. Such are the rules of play, & such they are likely to remain. Those who wish to engage here must work within them or they will fail in their purposes.

You are asking me what way I would recommend to you or marketing professionals generally? I give you the same advice I have always given: to learn to write articles that will be considered unquestionable acceptable. There may be no agreement on the boundary of what is just barely acceptable, but there is general agreement about what is absolutely not acceptable. For an editor to try to make their articles just passable is folly--there is almost a guarantee that they will often lose them. The only sure way to keep them is to make them good enough to resist challenge. All cut-rate paid editing is doomed whenever the standards rise. And there's an inherent difficulty to making them excellent: excellent articles here cannot be written by a single person. it requires not polished work, but work good enough and open enough to encourages others to polish it. Unless you write articles that disinterested people want to make even better, they will always be vulnerable.

But open editing and professional editing may be inherently incompatible. I have increasing doubts whether anyone in the PR profession can adjust to our manner of writing, and the discussions on and off wiki reinforce them daily. If I continue in the direction I am thinking, and others come to see things similarly, we may end by driving you away at whatever cost to our coverage. The only way you have of resisting it is to such good work that we can not plausibly object to it, and that mean meeting the expectations of an overwhelming consensus. In practice a few people here who persist in objecting can cause a stalemate. And this will affect not only the new articles; there are tens of thousands of old ones in equally poor condition. My comments at AfD and Deletion Review will show on a current basis how my thinking develops; it's there in the trenches that I do my work, though I may come here to summarize. DGG ( talk ) 03:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks DGG. In any hot-button issue those with the most extreme points of view are most vocal, so I'm glad I actively probed you for something more middled. I think this is similar to how I think of it. Just like any media, Wikipedia has content needs and we need to learn how to fulfill those needs with the same degree of professional expertise as we do in other mediums. Did you know we (as marketing professionals) have vast amounts of data on what makes the most viral tweet, the most compelling blog post and years of experience pitching timely stories to the media - yet we are lost on Wikipedia.

For years I was an expert among marketing professionals on Wikipedia. I did webinars, spoke at local events, consulted people routinely (for free), built a reputation (not intentionally) as the Wikipedia guy, when in fact I had only written a hand full of articles and knew very little. Now I am 10x the Wikipedian I once was, and still 10% of where I need to go, yet at 1% of where we should be (my target) I was an expert among my peers. We have a long way to go.

Appreciate the discussion. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 05:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikimania

Hi DGG. I'm going to try to make it to your session at Wikimania. If Jimmy sticks around after the plenary session and isn't barraged I might see if I can get his feedback on what a paid editor would need to do to not just be tolerated, but seen as an asset to Wikipedia. The unconference would be a good time to meet up. At some point much further down the line I would like to get some form of independent review/assessment on our McKinsey efforts from an uninvolved editor, just to make sure we've all done a great job serving the reader. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 17:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be a trend

I'm not saying that you meant what you said, but there appears to be a trend. Northamerica basically said the same thing as you did at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabriel Pizza which I didn't even nominate for deletion. Uncle G acted like I didn't follow WP:BEFORE at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neurathian bootstrap just because I didn't know that it had other names. Kvng said at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Compojure that I didn't consider merging the non-notable article even though I did. Haus said at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/E&BV Subdivision that he found sources in the same amount of time that it took me to nominate the article for deletion. I said that I don't think those sources show notability and another editor agreed with me. So annoying. SL93 (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I decide on the merits of an article by my own judgment. I then look at what other people said, to see if there is an argument that might convince me otherwise. Similarly, sometimes people who in a particular case think as I do use similar arguments as mine. (And why ever would I give an argument if I did not intend to convince others to agree with it?) Uncle G and I think alike for many articles, but not always, and I have differed from him at times in every possible direction. In that first article you mention my judgment was a little different from both of them. In the others I have not yet commented.

But both of us are of the opinion that some degree of consideration for the essential parts of WP:Before is part of WP:Deletion Policy. We've both been here long enough not to judge an article's possibilities on the basis of what is in the present version, and we both define "sourceable" as meaning able to be sourced, and "verifiable" as able to be verified. Both of us are know the limitations of the Googles well enough to be fairly sophisticated at searching them, & we are both aware there are other sources also. We don't expect others to be as thorough as we would--if everyone was, we'd have no need to even comment, because many articles would never get nominated for deletion. We do hope for a moderate degree of inventiveness & imagination, for most of the people here are rather good at those two mental characteristics. We do expect people will not try to judge notability in fields were they wouldn't be able to find sources if they existed.

Northamerica similarly, though he & I share the same view only sometimes, not all that often, and I have a good deal less experience and knowledge of his level of working. When multiple people say the same thing, they might even do so because it is the obviously correct answer.

Words like "substantial" in substantial coverage are not sharply true or false, and the interpretation depends on the circumstances. In fields or geographic areas where the press coverage of everyone of any degree of notability is extensive, it's reasonable to look for more substance than in those fields and places which attract much less attention. (I'm not sure how far Uncle G and Northamerica agree with me on that--I seem to feel much more strongly in requiring full coverage in some subject areas than they do.)

I see you say you follow WP:BEFORE--I am glad you accept that principle, and urge you to say explicitly what you have or have not searched, and what options you have considered. If I nominate or comment on an article & think that while merging or redirection might seem plausible they should not be so treated, I generally say so, and give the reason. DGG ( talk ) 16:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I will do that so people don't start assuming things. SL93 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage/New Pages Feed

Hey all :). A notification that the prototype for the New Pages Feed is now live on enwiki! We had to briefly take it down after an unfortunate bug started showing up, but it's now live and we will continue developing it on-site.

The page can be found at Special:NewPagesFeed. Please, please, please test it and tell us what you think! Note that as a prototype it will inevitably have bugs - if you find one not already mentioned at the talkpage, bring it up and I'm happy to carry it through to the devs. The same is true of any additions you can think of to the software, or any questions you might have - let me know and I'll respond.

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

very nice for general purposes, and will certainly improve accuracy if inexperienced users get this by default. For quickly scanning to pick up problems, I find it unusable. The old format works very well for me when I use it for that purpose, & I hope we can figure out how to maintain both. DGG ( talk ) 21:12, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Metatextbook of Medicine‎‎

David, I should perhaps have noted this on the talk page, but there is something weird with the review in the Deutsches Ärtzeblatt: it is written by the person who set up this "metatextbook" (see bottom of the huge linked page). So I don't think that it is really a review and certainly not independent. Perhaps too complicated for CSD... Should I take it to AfD? --Guillaume2303 (talk) 16:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposal to stop placeholder stubs being created without a sourced fact

Please comment.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello

I'm looking forward to seeing you at Wikimania Takes Manhattan - I will also be in DC. --David Shankbone 03:57, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Geo Swan's article

The point is that this article is a textbook BLP1E, and Geo Swan has gotten flak specifically for having this type of article in userspace and in mainspace; regardless of whether it belongs in userspace or not, I'm not going to enable someone to restore an article when I would immediately send it to AFD. "If I did that, and the article stays in the same form, it will be very rapidly deleted, which is not what you desire" — and this article cannot help being in the form of a BLP1E unless Geo Swan find persistent coverage, of which I've heard nothing from him/her. Nyttend (talk) 12:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Looking at a later comment on your talk p., it appears there was a misunderstanding. Geo asked you to at least mail it to him, & he (and I) thought you were refusing to do that also. But you explained you had not noticed that part, & would mail it. I think that resolves the immediate issue.

More generally, I am not sure of the advice I gave above, which you quoted. It is my intention if the person insists further to restore the article and fix it myself. In fact, when I re-read the source this morning, I may do that even if not requested. (This is part of the general problem more often seen at BLP PROD: if there is an unsatisfactory article, and we know we can fix it by a careful sourcing or rewrite,rather than delete it, should we do so? I think what we should best do in such circumstances is to try as much as reasonable to get the ed to do it themselves, and that is what I was trying to do above.)

the more general issue, that we may not use our authority to delete under the speedy criteria or after an explicit consensus, to delete otherwise, remains. I admit I have violated it on rare occasions, in the spirit of IAR. But using IAR for a single-handed deletion is a very dangerous thing, and perhaps we should all stop doing it. Otherwise it is all too easy for someone to make a case that we are acting on our own prejudices and private interpretations, and perhaps sometimes they will be right.

Additionally, I would never refuse to restore an article if another admin or equally trusted user asked me. Perhaps I defer to other admins too much, or you too little. After all, I could have said, you are being unreasonable, and restored it myself. The definition of wheel warring permits it. (Perhaps we define it incorrectly, and it gives an undue 2nd mover advantage, but that's a very complicated question.) DGG ( talk ) 20:22, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion between two respected colleagues. Please understand the importance of common ground. While mostly we simply observe, without comment, we generally benefit by considering the agreement you reach. Best regards to you both. My76Strat (talk) 00:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it goes without saying that most of the time admins will decide the same: if it were otherwise, we'd have immensely more conflict than now. There will also be a grey zone where doing a particular thing, is not clearly right or wrong. We say doubtful matters should involve the community, but then the question becomes which matters are doubtful enough to involve the community? In the boundary zone, the decisions are necessarily going to vary from one individual to another. This is beneficial, not harmful. An admin might choose to do only the utterly obvious, but the other matters need to be dealt with also. Discussing the items in the boundary zone is one of the ways by which consensus can change. DGG ( talk ) 00:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject NIH

Greetings DGG. I was looking at WikiProject NIH and it appears to be pretty inactive. Since you and one other are the only apparently active members I wanted to ask. Kumioko (talk) 01:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

the articles there certainly still need work: classic promotional institutional pages, in many cases, (much probably copied, and needs ref to the sources, though it US-PD) and overly brief summaries in others. Perhaps if its just the two of us we could simply divide them up. DGG ( talk ) 02:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly be glad to help out. I looked through some of them and your right theres definately some work to be done. I also noticed there seemed to be some that weren't tagged yet. I was also wondering if you think it would be ok if I did a couple things.

1. I would like to add the project to the Joint projects list of WPUS. The articles are already covered by both projects so it might help them a little and slightly increase the visibility of the NIH project.
2. I would like to expand the title on the template to spell out Institutes of Health. Of course I would leave the existing one as a redirect. I have had a couple folks ask me what it meant already (along with WikiProject SIA and AAA) so it might help a little.
3. There are several articles that aren't tagged yet that I would like to add to the project if you think that's ok. Kumioko (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

seems reasonable--just go ahead. I will look at some of the more extensive articles and do some trimming. (and some splitting--they include the bios of the Directors of the various institutes, but these people are sufficiently notable that they should be covered separately). I suggest you copy this discussion onto the talk p. of the project. I appreciate it very much that you're getting this re-started--I confess I had entirely forgotten that I meant to work on this. DGG ( talk ) 06:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I moved the template to {{WikiProject National Institutes of Health}} and updated the template example on the project page. I will add it to the WPUS Joint prokects list shortly. Kumioko (talk) 15:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Donald Tsang

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Donald Tsang. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 21:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Ambassadors

Could you show me where it says ambassadors are automatically notable because. Bgwhite (talk) 07:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I'll be interested in that ... I PRODded someone recently who was ambassador to several countries but didn't seem to pass WP:DIPLOMAT,which seems to say that being an ambassador per se is not enough for notability. He was unPRODded after more content was added, don't know whether it's the person you're concerned with or not (current Thai ambassador to US I seem to remember). PamD 11:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, found him, Chaiyong Satjipanon, and I see Bgwhite has been there recently too. PamD 12:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

All that is needed to remove a prod is a disagreement that it should be deleted without a community discussion. Prods are for deletions that nobody is expected to contest. The way I judge it, is that it's the highest level of the profession. If you want to go by GNG, I would not rule it out without looking for sources in the country the person is accredited to as well as that which he comes from. In the past we've made the distinction between ambassadors who are notable, and consuls, who are not usually. As always, the community will either agree with me, or not. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I deProded Chaiyong Satjipanon because being the ambassador to six nations, including the United States, would appear to be notable. I also found some Thai refs.

The one I did prod was an ambassador to Uganda and was a career civil servant. I highly respect DGG's opinions and have many written down as reference. However, deProdding with the edit summary saying "Ambassadors are notable" is misleading. Ambassadors are not automatically notable, especially where the majority of ambassadors for the U.S are political appointments who donated the most to a campaign. I have no problem with stating in the edit summary that you believe this person is notable, but don't say "Ambassadors are notable" as it sounds like Wikipedia policy. Bgwhite (talk) 00:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

What I say in an edit summary when I deprod is the reason i deprodded. it is not intended as a statement of policy. I consider ambassadors notable; I can't say consensus would support this 100% of the time, for consensus at AfD can depend on how carefully the matter is researched & argued—and on who happens to show up. I see no reason why an ambassador to the US should be more notable than an ambassador from the US -- or indeed any pair of countries. Checking, it seems about half the US ambassadors are career civil servants; the others are political or civic or business figures who are often even more notable for their outside careers. DGG ( talk ) 00:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Taxatio Ecclesiastica

Thought you might want to expand Taxatio Ecclesiastica.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

System of Systems Integration

DGG, I noticed that System of Systems Integration (talk · contribs) (the article creator) removed the prods you put on System of Systems Integration and Network Integration Evaluation, and thought you might like to know that I bundled them together and sent them over to AFD. Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 04:42, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it will be better to discuss them together. I was perhaps too optimistic in thinking the prod would stick. New low in organizational gibberish. DGG ( talk ) 04:45, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

System of Systems Integration is cut and paste copy (down to the typo in "fi elding") of its cited source at http://www.bctmod.army.mil/SoSI/sosi.html. Possibly not copyvio as US army, but certainly plagiarism. PamD 07:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

certainly plagiarism, yes, but also certainly US-PD. Otherwise I would have simply speedy deleted it. I commend the US for its US-PD policy, but it does cause difficulties with material like this. Perhaps we should have a rule that copy of the official source for an organization whether or not PD & whether or not acceptable licensing permission is given is evidence of promotionalism sufficient for deletion. (As you can see, this sort of material is getting me rather frustrated.) DGG ( talk ) 07:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible misunderstanding

To clarify, it was said by implication that this book [5] is a reliable source that mentions The Body Electric. I think this book is clearly not reliable and thus has no bearing. My comment is not about The Body Electric itself. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The question is not whether the book is scientifically reliable; the question is whether the cite in it that the b.e. is a " time-honored classic" shows notability; reliable in this sense means editorially discriminating in some sensible manner between different books, and it does: it is one of the 2 listed. The book is independent, published by a division of Harpers and is in 300 libraries. I agree it is fringe science at best, but it's notable fringe science. DGG ( talk ) 18:08, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Talk:List of professional sports leagues

An interesting question has been raised that you might be interested in. Since you have participated in similar discussions and arguably more experience in this particular policy question, you might have some insight that would be helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Malls

Since you're in the malls wikiproject, I'd like you to weigh in here. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 11:23, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool, Version 5

Hey all :)

Just a quick update on what we've been working on:

• The centralised feedback page is now live! Feel free to use it and all other feedback pages; there's no prohibition on playing around, dealing with the comments or letting others know about it, although the full release comes much later. Let me know if you find any bugs; we know it's a bit odd in Monobook, but that should be fixed in our deployment this week.
• On Thursday, 7th June we'll be holding an office hours session at 20:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. We'll be discussing all the latest developments, as well as what's coming up next; hope to see you all there!
• Those of you who hand-coded feedback; I believe I contacted you all about t-shirts. If I didn't, drop me a line and I'll get it sorted out :).

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Akhtaboot for deletion

Hi, you have nominated Akhtaboot article for deletion. We have previously worked together on improving the article so that it won't be deleted. Can you please let me know what I have done wrong and how can I improve it? --Article123456 (talk) 07:20, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

If there are any references from 2012, please add them. Then it's up to the community to make the decision DGG ( talk ) 18:02, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

As part of Akhtaboot's expansion, it has participated in many job fairs in Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates in 2012:

• Tawdheef Abu Dhabi Job Fair - United Arab Emirates(If you look at the bottom of the page, Akhtaboot has been their online recruitment partner): http://www.tawdheef.ae/
• Al Sharjah National Career Exhibition - United Arab Emirates (If you look at the bottom of the page, Akhtaboot has been their online recruitment partner): http://www.nationalcareer.ae/
• College of Business Job Fair - Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: http://www.ameinfo.com/294402.html
• AUD job fair (please search for the word "Akhtaboot" in the article: http://www.aud.edu/student_services/career_fair.asp

Many universities also chose Akhtaboot to power the career's section of their website with Akhtaboot Microsite solution (a whitelabel of Akhtaboot.com:

• King Fahd University for Petroleum and Minerals: http://kfupm.akhtaboot.com , http://www.menafn.com/menafn/1093487940/Akhtaboot-Cares-Initiative-Partners-with-Middlesex-University-Dubai
• Middlesex University Dubai: http://mdx.akhtaboot.com
• British Uni in Dubai: http://buid.akhtaboot.com , http://www.albawaba.com/business/pr/akhtaboot-career-buid-427030

And many others, do you think the above can be included in the article and is it worthy enough?--Article123456 (talk) 13:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Add these to the article, and see what people think. DGG ( talk ) 19:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Pusat Tingkatan Enam Meragang

Two years ago our school relocated to a new campus. We are a government school located in Brunei (SE Asia). As the person in charge of IT and all things online at our school I temporarily created a new wiki page for our new campus - a new name and location etc. - Shortly after this it was deleted by you and the reason A7 was given. I've been a little busy lately but others have since asked me why we no longer have a wikipedia presence. I would like to complete our wiki page and maintain it as we did our old one. Please tell me what I need to do to get off the restricted list and back up and running. I cannot create a new site because our name is now held in limbo. Your help is appreciated. Our old page was [Tingkatan Enam Berakas] and our new name is [Tingkatan Enam Meragang].Cikgubrian (talk) 12:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

This was back in 2009. The best way to deal with this is to move the old article, update it, and give a cross reference, all of which I can do. . But I cannot do this unless I have some actual information . The article said merely "Scheduled to open in March 2009, PTEM will accommodate staff and students from Pusat Tingkatan Enam Berakas as they make way for a new secondary school to take over their campus in Lambak Kiri. As details are finalised and made available more information will be posted."

Please provide some information on the talk page of the old article. Include the web site, etc., so I can verify. You also should provide references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases. Any language will do. I will deal with inserting it correctly. I gather the old pictures are no longer applicable, so you will need to upload one or two new ones with a free license. And see WP:COI and WP:OWN--anyone can edit the p., not just you. DGG ( talk ) 17:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations

		100000 Edits
		Congratulations on reaching 100000 edits. You have achieved a milestone that very few editors have been able to accomplish. The Wikipedia Community thanks you for your continuing efforts. Keep up the good work!

If you like you can add this userbox to your collection.

This user has been awarded with the 100000 Edits award.

```Buster Seven Talk 13:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

unfortunately, not as impressive as it might seem, considering that 10 or 20% of them are just to correct my own typos. DGG ( talk ) 03:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Something to look at.

I have created a rough draft of what could become WP:EASYMONEY at User:Dennis Brown/EASYMONEY for the purpose of helping COI editors actually understand what they are doing wrong, how to fix it, and how to actually become a contributor instead of a liability. I'm trying to avoid all the adhoc speeches given to the growing number of PR and marketing firms that are joining us, and at the same time avoid taking a stand on the policy or politics of the issue. I am interested in your opinion of the wisdom of this. If you like the concept, please feel free to participate or modify in any way you choose. I'm not married to any format or details in this, it is just a rough draft at this point. I will drop this same note to a few other editors whom I feel would be beneficial in considering this page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I was planning something with a roughly similar intent : "What is Promotionalism" It should complement what your've been doing. I want to keep it separate, because my part refers to much more than paid editing. The structural problem with yours is that you need early on to explain that there is a safe universally accepted way as specified at COI--asking for article creation or proposing a draft in userspace, and a less safe not universally accepted way, direct editing, which is what much of yours is directed to, though much applies to anyone. You also need to explain that policies and guidelines contain contradictions. And in the other direction, there are a few absolute NOs, such as don't remove uncomfortable facts, but use the talk page, & if necessary, OTRS. There's some wording changes needed; for example, the RS problem is as much pR-based sources as blogs, WP:N is not policy, but a guideline, and WP:BRD is an essay which not everyone agrees with--personally, I think it in practice a temptation to violate the policy WP:CIVIL--when I started I was astounded people were actually encouraged to work in that fashion. . A better title is also needed: "Editing for money" ? DGG ( talk ) 16:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

It was thrown together quickly this morning. If you are inclined, I would love to have your participation. I've asked only a few editors whom I know have different ideas about Wikipedia in general, as to get a balanced approach to it. It is targeted for PR/Marketing people who are new to Wikipedia, who very often get blocked right out of the gate, as you observe. This is one reason I invited Orangemike, as this might be a tool he would use via UAA concerns, Nobody Ent, Kim Dent-Brown, The Bushranger and others who have unique and valuable perspective and of course you, whose opinions I always appreciate. I'm hoping to get others to pitch in on the actual content, as I don't wish it to be solely my opinion and words, but clearly a community "help" guide. And I'm not married to the name either. Would like to hear other opinions on that at the talk page. With help, I don't think it would take a great deal of time to get this up to par since the scope is narrow enough. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I followed a very similar vein as DGG describes above in my contributions to the essay, but I like his language more "universally acceptable." I could see that in the title somehow: "Universally acceptable marketing & public relations behavior on Wikipedia (too long). User:King4057 16:08, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Interview with Ragans

A PR publication called Ragans may be covering a report I'm publishing next week. The thesis of the report is that ethical Wikipedia engagement by companies is a form of content marketing. Just like any independent news and information source, Wikipedia has content needs. Companies can achieve mutual benefit by transparently offering content of value to the editorial community. The report shares statistical information from 2,500+ Wikipedia articles on companies to gleam insights into Wikipedia's content needs, so organizations can better align themselves.

What bothers me about media coverage on the topic is the lack of voice from the editorial community and the reporter expressed an interest in doing a Q&A with a volunteer editor. I was wondering if you were interested. It seems up your alley, since the focus is on quality content. User:King4057 21:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. ask the reporter to email me. I would personally very much like to see good content from companies; the problem is getting content that meets the needs of the readers, not the needs of the companies. (And it is not really companies, it is organizations of any type--the problems are very similar), A reputable publisher knows how to accomplish this: it uses the company's PR as one source, in the light of other sources, and as filtered through the critical knowledge of experienced and independent editors, and rewriting it so it matches the expectations for newspaper or magazine articles. A less reputable publisher of course tends to present it much less carefully filtered & rewritten. The difficulty at Wikipedia is despite good intentions, we cannot count on having skillful editing of the material, and so we have had the policy of rejecting information from organizations, for fear we will be unable to evaluate it. But after 4 years here working with this material, I know it can be done; I'm currently trying to rewrite at least one promotional article a day, many of long standing--including some I accepted in past years when I had not yet developed a sufficiently skeptical eye.

There are two difficulties: one is that the content the company wants to contribute only has a partial overlap with what the reader needs. Readers do not want to hear why the company thinks it had good products, they want to hear facts about the products, including references to published independent opinions of them the company may have collected. From this they will make their own judgments of value. The other is that the style of presenting material is different when you're outside the material, and I am not sure how practical it is to expect most people whose professional careers have been within one framework, to adopt another. (There are analogous difficulties for people who have spent their career writing academic papers or computer manuals or music reviews.) DGG ( talk ) 03:46, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Oops, forget about my email. I have your email address and submitted it to the reporter. I agree with your assessment above. I'm using the term "ethical Wikipedia engagement," because "paid editing" entails writing the entire article, instead of using a collaborative process. On the other hand, for smaller yet notable companies, there is very little controversy and fewer interested editors. So I think the approach will vary, especially depending on the amount of controversy/negativity. The other issue is what I'll call the "ethics tax" - meaning it is much faster, cheaper and more effective to edit Wikipedia "less ethically" (but perhaps more risky). One of the reporter's questions were "what is the ROI of ethics?" I get this question a lot. User:King4057 01:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

If we at WP cannot get promotional editing under control, our response is likely to be more stringent standards for the notability of business and other organizations, & greater selectivity in the content of those we keep. There have already been such proposals, and even without a change in the formal guidelines, the interpretation can gradually change--and in fact is changing. For even myself, a supporter of inclusionism in business articles, the degree of my enthusiasm is much less than it used to be, & my likelihood of making drastic cuts in promotional content is much higher--so much higher, that these have become my principal activities here. Where I used to rewrite, I will often stubbify; where I used to stubbify, I will now delete or nominate for deletion. If the writing for smaller yet notable companies does not greatly improve, that level of company will soon no longer be considered notable. The obvious fact that nobody is in control here gives a false impression that one can try to get away with anything. But with enough eyes, no corner is too obscure to escape notice, and we have by now learned that maintaining a neutral encyclopedia requires standing up for it firmly. DGG ( talk ) 03:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I use the following arguments:

• Avoid "vengeful editing" from editors frustrated with your behavior
• Avoid reputational risk from public humiliation
• Have a productive working relationship with editors, instead of edit-warring

These arguments are most relevant to major brands with reputations to protect, more community interest/activity and a legal department that understands risk management. These companies understand the need for ethical behavior generally.

But ethics is just an operational in-the-weeds piece of helping companies inform the world about topics they have a vested interest in through Wikipedia. I want companies to stop seeing Wikipedia as a liability and start seeing it as an asset. Wikipedia isn't just a place where an angry customer or special interest group weaponizes the site to attack companies they don't like; it's a free service to create credible corporate/executive/product profiles in the interest of free knowledge. User:King4057 23:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I am asking a lot of you, but if you were ever interested in doing a blog post or Q&A style article addressing the marketing community, I would be happy to set that up as well. From my perspective we should be listening to the community more, but the volunteer editorial community doesn't have an army of PR professionals giving them voice or an organized effort to educate marketing professionals. I would like to improve that when and how I can, like the article I did here with Robert Lawton. User:King4057 16:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm working on an essay: What is promotionalism. I do want to collect what I've said at various places. And I'm also thinking of a group like the Article Rescue Squadron, which I am tentatively naming Wikiproject Promotionalism Removal Unit. But I am concerned with the ideologues as much as the PR community. And remember that no one person can speak for the community, and we do not agree on the approach to this--we only go by formal guidelines to the extent we want to at the moment for each case separately, so everything here will always be erratic.

But a few specifics. first, We do not intend to be a friendly place for people expressing grudges. I remove or greatly condense such material when I see it, although it is necessary to separate the removal of over-emphasis from the attempt at a cover-up. I think the best approach for an individual PR person confronted with this is OTRS. The OTRS people are practiced at sounding as professional or bureaucratic as necessary to be convincing, while still maintaining our values.. (I do a little such work for schools complaints & i think I have always satisfied people that we're doing what we can, though not necessarily what they would like.) Second, the 4th reason for working by our accepted practices is that you will succeed in getting to say what can appropriately be said within our limits; it's not just risk management, but in a more positive sense effective working. Third, It helps to remind people that Commons is open to good photographs with a free license, & does not require immediate use in an article. & what is put there might end up being used quite widely. DGG ( talk ) 00:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

My opinions are still forming/changing as I become more experienced and based on what I observe, but I have observed that ethical community collaboration takes immense patience, extra work and lower "results" from the sense that most companies would prefer bias entries, which they could obtain through less ethical participation. The survival of EthicalWiki will depend on ethics actually being the most viable route, which means I rely on the community to do a good job screening out poor ethics - an impossible job. User:King4057 13:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course they would prefer entries that meet their immediate needs; such is the nature of capitalism, It is our obligation to do the work to see they can not get what they would prefer when it conflicts with the principle of providing encyclopedic information. Everything you say leads to the conclusion that promotionalism must be removed, I think in the end we will be able to do so only at the cost of abandoning the principle of anonymity. It is folly to think that we here now have constructed something that can not be improved upon. DGG ( talk ) 21:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

In any case, check out the news story and a similar story in PRWeek. I don't think the point of Wikipedia and great content really got across the way I'd like it too, but... User:King4057 13:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, within just a few hours of the articles being published, the discussion hit Jimbo's Talk page. User:King4057 23:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!

For cleaning up City University of Seattle! Your editing expertise is much appreciated and respected by this lowly Huggle jockey. Cheers! Jim1138 (talk) 00:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I have just begun. DGG ( talk ) 03:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Nicely said...

Your comments in the AfD for Orville (cat). LadyofShalott 04:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

thanks. DGG ( talk ) 14:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

• I responded there with a question that is only partly rhetorical as it's really not clear to me what you're suggesting we do to decide such matters. You seem to be proposing that we restrict comment to editors who have some specific power of discernment but what does this mean in practise? Please elaborate. Warden (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I am undecided about that we should do in such matters in general. There can be no fixed boundaries for this, as it is not quantifiable. It has to be by the general judgment of the people who care here, which in practice gives great weight to the opposite extremes of sensationalism and snobbery. My only real concern is that we seem to have a bias to including disgusting events, and excluding political ones--by own bias is just the opposite. I'd accept the disgusting if we could get the political. I'd accept any lower level, in fact, if we could get the political. DGG ( talk ) 16:55, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

• There seem to be lots of articles about political campaigns, elections and demonstrations - what is currently excluded? I would like to see much of that content excluded or constrained as, by its nature, it tends to be too provisional. There not much point in covering a campaign in a speculative way when the eventual result will make much of the speculation worthless. The case of Orville seems different in that its nature seems quite settled and so we are able to write in a reasonably factual way. Its disgusting nature is a matter of style and taste and I fancy I could cover it in a suitably po-faced way. Note that it was I that started the article about The Great Cat Massacre. My tongue was firmly in my cheek but it still seems good to include such topics. Warden (talk) 09:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• I have always admired your great skill with these topics. People will always disagree about individual cases. To me, the GCM has clear very high notability because of the book, without any irony. I differentiate between history and current gossip. As for politics, tho it is not an exact analogy, I am thinking about the quite successful campaigns to remove articles related to Gitmo, and also articles about small splinter parties, left and right--not of trivial events in political campaigns, where I more or less agree with you about the tendency for overemphasis. DGG ( talk ) 23:56, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Notification of nomination for deletion of Night flight in the UK

This is to inform you that this article has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Night flight in the UK. - Ahunt (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Hundred Years' War Articles (four)

These articles have either NO references or very few. Much has gone completely unreferenced for YEARS. It looks like pure copyvio almost throughout the articles. Though tags have been placed on them, the tags are simply updated so they do not look as if the articles have been unreference for as long. Attempts to change material and/or add references based on citable material is vehemently fought by a few who, unfortunately do not use that same energy to comply with the guidelines. The template will, on a particular day have England the victor, on another, will have France the victor. Would you please look at these four articles? They need, I think, your unique expertise. Thank you. Hundred Years' War, Hundred Years' War (1337–1360), Hundred Years' War (1369–1389), Hundred Years' War (1415–1453).Mugginsx (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I am making some comments on the general article. My interpretation of the writing is that if the material was plagiarized, it was plagiarized from some rather dull textbooks, and probably outdated ones at that. DGG ( talk ) 18:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for commenting there. I did want to correct the idea that I was advocating using old sources and chronicles exclusively. I am well aware of the problems inherent in using those sources. I do think they should be mentioned within the format you recommended as does Norman F. Cantor, Pulitzer Prize winner Barbara Tuchman and other well known authors. The fact is that the editors there have made absolutely no effort for years to use in-line citations and that is required on En-Wikipedia. Because I was and am presently committed to other articles and cannot spend the time on the Hundred Years War articles at this time, I thought perhaps I would give a suggestion for those resources on-line with the presumption that they knew what to do with them and how to use them. Another (minor) thing I wanted to correct was that I am a woman editor. Thankyou again. Mugginsx (talk) 11:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

commented again there. DGG ( talk ) 18:32, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Assistance with Bloomberg Law

Hi-there. Recently, I've been working to improve the Bloomberg Law article which currently lacks any citation or substantial information. I do some work for Bloomberg and don't want my conflict of interest to interfere with Wiki guidelines, so I have been in talks with Bearian about a draft of the article I proposed. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the bandwidth at this time to help implement that changes and recommended I talk with you. Would you mind taking a look and if seen as appropriate, implement the changes into the current article? My draft can be found here. I truly appreciate your help! --RivBitz (talk) 18:01, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Glad you asked. Your article is an improvement, though I would have used more of the existing comment and references. But it is promotional. You should replace most of the repeated mentions of the name with a phrase such as "the service' or "it". You use too much PR jargon, such as "real-time" and "all-inclusive predictable pricing model" You have an uncited, though certainly plausible, opinion about the motives of the company-- And it is not reasonable to end with a sentence praising the firm. You might in fact want to look for other opinions on that sponsorship--I would be surprised if someone didn't consider it a potential threat to a free resource, by making it dependent upon a commercial competitor. .

In the other direction, like the earlier article, it is insufficiently detailed. The service consists of a complex of components that needs fuller description--such as geographic and chronological scope. There is no information about financial results, or market share or penetrance. And it is usual to give some information about costs, though not of course detailed pricing. Is it in fact affordable for solo attorneys? Is it found in law schools? Are there academic rates? Is it intended ' exclusively for "lawyers and legal professionals." I am aware that comp-anies often consider some of this proprietary information, but the expectation of an encyclopedia is that it will provide whatever can be publicly sourced, and such things are probably mentioned in the articles about it. DGG ( talk ) 18:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Question about Wikimania Takes Manhattan

Hi DGG! Sorry if you're not the right guy to talk to, but you're one of only two–three people from the list of organizers that I recognized. I asked a question here but it doesn't seem like the page is updated often by organizers, but an answer would be great. Thanks in advance, Ynhockey <sup>(Talk)</sup> 00:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

the person to ask is User:Pharos. But as I understand it, the Wiki World's Fair on July 7th will be the principal event, as many people apparently will be there for that day only. DGG ( talk ) 01:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Journal titles

Hi, I got a question about journal titles for Russian journals that don't have an English edition (or an "official" English title on their homepage or cover or anything like that). I'm not really sure how to answer this and your input would be appreciated. The editor (Solus Ipse) had translated the titles themselves and I somehow think that this may not be the right way to go. Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 07:49, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a general rule here: if there is no common english title for a subject we use the one in the language of the subject. But in this case there I see there in fact is an English title. DGG ( talk ) 18:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Authority Control Integration

Hi, I've been researching the intersection of Wikipedia and Authority Control, and have just recently made a Village Pump Proposal to create a bot to expand the usage of a template. I've identified you as someone in the sphere of interest to this project and would appreciate your input at the Village Pump. Thanks, Maximiliankleinoclc (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

commented at User talk:Maximiliankleinoclc/Authority control integration DGG ( talk ) 19:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Mail

Hi DGG

Not sure if you saw it, but I sent you an email. Spartaz <sup>Humbug!</sup> 15:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 release coming up - help us design a banner!

Hey all :). First-off, thanks to everyone for all their help so far; we're coming up to a much wider deployment :). Starting at the end of this month, and scaling up until 3 July, AFT5 will begin appearing on 10 percent of articles. For this release we plan on sending out a CentralNotice that every editor will see - and for this, we need your help :). We've got plans, we know how long it's going to run for, where it's going to run...but not what it says. If you've got ideas for banners, give this page a read and submit your suggestion! Many thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

curiously enough, and rather to my surprise, at the last training session we held in NYC (for a group of junior college instructors), many of the participants were of the opinion that the presence of the article feedback request decreased the confidence they felt in the quality of Wikipedia. I am however not sure of which version they had in mind. DGG ( talk ) 00:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Dennis Brown/EASYMONEY

Your name is being thrown about on this page, but in positive way. Perhaps it is time to join us? It is morphing quite a bit, but there are some good ideas being thrown around, and the essay has undergone a lot of changes, and more is yet to happen. Some of your insight would be helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:35, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I see the discussion on the name, but where is the essay? DGG ( talk ) 23:59, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

• • • User:Dennis Brown/EASYMONEY. It is still undergoing a lot of changes, and there is a pretty wide variety of people looking at it, including at least one who COI edits himself, which I think adds some balance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

The COI contributing would be me. ;-)

Some of my contributions to the essay are influenced by DGG's perspective. User:King4057 21:12, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi DGG. Especially seeing that I just invited Ocaasi, who is sort of the champion (I think) of the PSCOI, to chime in, I toned down the See Also. My rational is that if the essay is to focus on being something both sides of the aisle can agree on, we can only confidently say that there is disagreement. Please feel free to revert if you disagree. User:King4057 01:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

We do not disagree. I was not satisfied with my wording in context, but neither am I satisfied with the previous wording, or the current. is a fundamental problem, and the page is being evasive about it. It is very difficult to give advice when practice deviates widely and inconsistently from the formal guideline. Though there is a formal guideline that COI editing is strongly discouraged, there are wide differences in its interpretation, with well-regarded people here taking completely opposite positions. Some would revert to the formal position when I joined: that a COI editor may not write an article ever or even suggest one, but wait until somebody uninvolved notices the topic is important. Others would actively encourage COI editing and concentrate on improving it, emphasizing that all guidelines inherently have exceptions. (And during the period where it was most strongly discouraged, the encyclopedia nonetheless became filled with it, and most of it remains.) Even the "safe" method (AfC) that we recommend is very inconsistent in application and results, whichI will discuss elsewhere.

I therefore think it necessary to highlight this at the very start--especially because people with outside experience expect some degree of stability in large organizations, which they will not find here. It's regrettable having to start off with a warning that nothing you do will necessarily keep you out of trouble, but such is the situation. In formal organizations there is authority to appeal to, when needed for bypassing obstructive people, but there is deliberately nobody here with authority over content. Nor in most places is there such a wide contrast between our theoretical very open acceptance of newcomers, and our apparently ineradicable suspicion of them. The apparent rule is not "everybody can edit, but "everybody can edit, unless it's about a subject your deeply care about--and even so you must learn our rules before starting, though there is no practical way to learn without extensive experience here." if you do things our way, but it is impossible to learn what it is without a few years of experience.I will try a rewrite based on putting this at the beginning, not the end.

The basic problem I have is that it is being approached from the paid editor perspective, not the COI perspective. It applies just as much to non-profit or even amateur organizations, as it does to companies, and it does not depend on whether one gets compensation. The only special problem with paid is the resentment people here feel at others getting paid for doing work poorly that they do better as volunteers. DGG ( talk ) 19:38, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I find analogies with traditional publishing very effective here. Someone in my position is only a "paid" editor in comparison to those that contribute for free. In working with professional journalists, we would both be paid. It's largely a perception problem that my work is comparable to volunteer work. Only ~20% of my job is writing articles. The rest is education, consulting and content negotiation, with up to 50+ internal stakeholders at a single company(the record so far). Molding companies to work incrementally, voluntarily accept a lack of control and endorse extreme honesty and transparency is an intricate task. An article I could write in 8 hours as a volunteer would take 8 months as a consultant. It's hard work!!

Regarding experience, I think the community should be able to expect a professional-quality engagement and professional-quality content from companies, the same way journalists expect professionalism. I'm working on getting to that level that I think should be routine. Journalists don't typically have to do much with contributed articles we offer them. The obvious (yet unrealistic) feedback is to ask editors to do volunteer work first. I suppose you could say I'm working on the private-sector solution to the experience problem. Volunteers shouldn't have to drain the community's resources (except when they choose to voluntarily, because they enjoy it) to literally work for free FOR the paid editor. So someone like me gets the paycheck, by convincing someone like you to do the work for me. On the other hand, I hope many editors will collaborate with me, because they just enjoy doing so and see value in my contributions. What we can do though is provide better instructions (the best we can).

In any case, if you do find any notable non-profits attempting to write an article with a COI, I'm particularly interested in doing some pro-bono work helping worthy non-profits that can't afford me. User:King4057 23:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

BTW, something I learned from you was how policies and guidelines are just a North Star as it were, that rely on good judgement from impartial volunteers; how their interpretation can vary. I applied that principal in my volunteer work here[6], resolving a dispute through good judgement instead of policy citation wars. I could see us working something similar into the essay. I think requesting factual corrections, sharing sources, etc. is fairly straightforward and non-controversial, but making substantial content contributions is where we could take a more reserved stance, expressing that most companies can't meet Wikipedia's content needs and editors may or may not be helpful. User:King4057 00:22, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

CYGNSS

Hi DGG,

Thank you for reviewing my recent article stub with Nouniquenames. I've been trying to understand what the difference is between 3rd party coverage, and press releases. Could you point me to the Wikipedia guideline (if one exists) that explains this?

Thanks, DavidDavidch12 (talk) 02:35, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I provided about 7 sources over on Noun's Talk page. Looks like most of them just came out over the last couple days. User:King4057 13:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) WP:RS is the guideline on reliable sources. That is likely the best place to start. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:50, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Hundred Years' War

I have answered you on Talk:Hundred Years' War. Mugginsx (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the Stevens Institute of Technology

Was this ever completed? Silverseren<sup>C</sup> 21:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

It will be this weekend. I know I've said it before two or three times, but I'm feeling embarrassed enough to actually do it, instead of trying to learn something I haven't done before (last week, the new version of the New Pages list, this week, AfC.) DGG ( talk ) 21:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, i've been procrastinating plenty myself. How long has it been since I helped out at PAIDHELP? I spent yesterday working on Man With A Mission and trying to decipher horribly machine translated Japanese news sources. So, yeah. But i've pledged to work through the PAIDHELP page today and get everything done. Silverseren<sup>C</sup> 21:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Neocleous's introduction to Cyprus law

Do you think this can be salvaged? The article is written by an SPA and is horribly spammy, but that could be fixed if the book is notable. Worldcat shows only one library holding, but Dennis Campbell, Introduction to Cyprus Law ISBN 9783902046215, which is presumably the "widely acclaimed" first edition referred to, is in 33 libraries. How would you assess it against WP:BK? JohnCD (talk) 17:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

For a book on the law system of a very small European nation, I would not expect to find much in WorldCat. And it fact, it seems the only comprehensive substantial English language book on the general subject listed there. Books dealing with particular branches, have 19, 6, 2, and 1 copies in WorldCat DGG ( talk ) 17:21, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help

DGG, thanks for your help on the McKinsey & Company page. I laughed in the talk page when I read your comment, " "a 1993 Fortune profile" -- surely there's something more recent. " -- in fact the firm goes to great lengths indeed to hide compensation, so these figures and citations had to be carefully sleuthed. :) My[2011] (talk) | 20:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I sort of realized that, but someone should have commented in print on this in the last 20 years. I have seen similar situations here quite dificult to handle, because we can not editorially comment. If one knows that an article is well written and researched, missing information is significant; but for a WP article neither part of that can be assumed. DGG ( talk ) 21:40, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Personal life of Jennifer Lopez

Hey, could you do me a favor? Most of the information on Personal life of Jennifer Lopez, which was deleted a couple of days ago, was not present on the main article and I would like to restore it and userfy it into my userspace. Could you do that for me? I have no intentions in creating the article again, I just think some useful information may be put back into the main article. I'd really appreciate the help. Thanks. —Hahc21 03:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be better if you asked BWilkins first--I suggest you tell him that you will keep it only for a week or two, and will get consensus for any additions. DGG ( talk ) 20:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Double AfD closures

Greetings DGG. Why are the following AfDs closed twice? [7][8][9]? Regards. – Kosm1fent 07:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

apparently I was working too late at night. I've removed my closes as redundant--and I note that I agreed completely with the other admin. DGG ( talk ) 17:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! :) – Kosm1fent 17:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Indexing of surnames beginning with "Mac" or "Mc"

Hi DGG, if you don't mind putting your librarian's hat on for a few minutes, I would welcome your thoughts at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Mac.2FMc_curiosity, on the indexing of surnames beginning with "Mac" or "Mc". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Your comment at WT:RFA

I've been piled up at work, and just now catching up on an excellent discussion at WT:RFA – far better than the usual "the sky is falling, what are we to do".

I did want to quibble with one observation you made; I'll do it here because no one seems to expand on your thought, so I don't see much need to insert it into the thread. Plus I'll use it as a point of departure to make another point, which I may add to the thread, after I've finished reading it.

You remarked, "I typically decline about 1/3 of the Speedy deletions I see, but some admins close essentially everything, Either I or they must be doing it wrong." I say, "not necessarily". To make an extreme example, suppose there are 1000 xSDs, with 100 of them badly tagged. If some new admins poke around, and delete 700 "easy" ones, that leaves 300 left of which 1/3 ought to be declined. So it is possible both can be right. Now, I'm not saying that 100% closers are always right, but we'd have to check some of the close lists to be sure. Which brings me to my pother point. When I was a new admin, I half expected someone would be assigned to follow me around for some time, just to make sure I was understanding the rules correctly. Either that didn't happen, or they were very, very quiet. (I'm even more surprised it isn't SOP at OTRS, but that’s a different issue.) I think we should have a more formal review system for new admins. I know there's the ability to check with someone else, but I'd like to see something more formal.

Having made my point, I'm not sure it belongs on the thread at this time, because my suggestion isn't going to help the problems that are being discussed at the moment, so maybe I'll think some more on it, and formalize a proposal later. Maybe after getting some thoughts from people like you.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You are quite correct--I was oversimplifying. Sensible new admins do only the ones that are totally obvious while they are starting--it must be very discouraging to have people revert your first admin actions, and I've seen that happen. And it is true that I will make a point of checking speedy nominations others have thought it wise to pass by, and AfDs that people don't seem to want to close; I know some others do just the same, which is how we keep long lags from developing. But I had in mind also a few long term admins who actually do decide almost all equivocal cases as delete. To expand on what you have said , in a direction of my own,

I have occasionally checked a new admins deletions if I think from the RfA there is likely to be some problems, and I suppose others do similarly. But I do not know if any people systematically reviews the admin logs the way people do new pages--if anyone does, I've noticed no sign of it. The only thing I've seen checked systematically is the very long-standing page protections. It might be a good thing to do. The AfD closes are very visible, the prods have been checked by several people before they get to the top of the list, but speedies and blocks and unblocka and protections and unprotections don't get looked at, unless someone suspects a problem. I have sometimes thought of doing it, but I have always stopped, because, to be frank about it, I don't want to see the errors. I can't pass over a clear error I do see, and I am fully aware that some admins use the tools beyond the proper limits. Some of these are my friends, & I can mention it to them from time to time quietly. But for obvious reasons most of the ones I would disagree with are by people I often disagree with, with whom relations are often not all that friendly. I don't want to spend all my time quarreling and navigating sticky situations; though I may get the errors corrected, it is not likely to improve mutual relations. (I am also aware that I too make both errors and borderline interpretations, & I suppose I even sometimes interpret things the way I would like them to be, & if I have any enemies here, I do not really want to encourage them to audit me with the utmost possible rigidity. I expect I could be able to very well support my interpretations, but as Samuel Johnson put it, nobody however conscious of their innocence wants to every day have to defend themselves on a capital charge before a jury.

When I started here, I wondered how a system with a thousand equally powerful admins who could all revert each other could possibly exist. I soon learnt the subtleties of wheel warring--there were some major arb com cases on it during my first year here which pretty much defined the limits. But more important, I also learned that even the more quarrelsome spirits here understood the virtues of mutual forbearance--and that even the most self-sufficient people do not really want to look publicly foolish. Our balance is I think over-inclined to protecting the guilty if they are popular enough, but it is not as bad as it could be, or as it often is in human societies. DGG ( talk ) 03:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I smiled at your closing comment. I had the same, thought, although for the project as a whole, rather than just the admin function. I'm more recent to the project because, when I first heard about it, a few years before actually joining, I thought about the model and decided it couldn't possibly work. Oddly, I still feel that way, intellectually. If there were no such thing as Wikipedia, and I heard a proposal to create, my instinct is that it will fail miserably. I actually can't quite put my finger on why it hasn't failed.SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Dennis Brown/CSD

I know you didn't think it was necessary, but I did agree to it and will comply fully. In one month, I will be at 3 months and will have fulfilled my obligation, assuming my own criteria is met, that two admins sign off at that time (I would ask you and Boing! since you've been involved.) I have Sections 4, 5 and 6 ready to review, which should be easy and fast to do in the different format, where I give the opinion, then later on, I give the actual result below it. Only a cursory comment is required on each section if there aren't any errors noted. This assumes you have a little time (Boing has been tied). If you don't have the time, that is fine as well as this is a lower priority than your regular rounds, to be sure. It has been a burden, but a promise is a promise. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

done. DGG ( talk ) 00:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I noticed your two notes. I've left responses there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Level one user warnings

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Level one user warnings. (This invitation sent because you signed up as a member of WP:UWTEST) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48 Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Time in Illinois

Would appreciate your restoring Time in Illinois — WP:CSD says "If a page has survived its most recent deletion discussion, it should not be speedy deleted except for newly discovered copyright violations", so G5 doesn't apply after it survived AFD a few days ago. Nyttend (talk) 20:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Being created by a banned sockpuppet is essentially in the same class of things that supersede earlier discussions. If you want to go further, I suggest an/i rather than dr, but it's your choice. DGG ( talk ) 20:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the DRV I raised and the discussion on the non-admin closer's talk page, he accepts that the AFD was closed incorrectly so I'd say that the AFD is irrelevant to this issue. Spartaz <sup>Humbug!</sup> 02:06, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

There's more to read on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive757#Mass recreation of previously CSD'd articles and the archived discussions that it points to. Uncle G (talk) 00:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• DGG, you asked for my thoughts on what we should do next. My personal view before the sockpuppeting came to light was that the article was insufficiently encyclopedic for a standalone article based on the subject, content and lack of sourcing. I'm not at all opposed to a merge of all of these interrelated pages up to the first level where there is enough sourcing and encyclopedia value to maintain articles. whether that be national time, regional, state, country, continental or whatever. With regard to the G5, the policy is clear. Its a valid deletion but there is nothing to stop someone recreating it to replace the deleted content. I'd say that any recreation would be without prejudice to a further listing at AFD or a wider subject area RFC. Spartaz <sup>Humbug!</sup> 08:10, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 28

Hi. When you recently edited Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Halle (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 13:44, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello, DGG. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

authority control

• Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Authority Control Integration

I'm surprised that you didn't comment. Uncle G (talk) 00:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• • I had done so, at Wikipedia talk:Authority control integration proposal. I didn't think I was needed beyond that, though I did just now add my name at the just-started RfC, Wikipedia:Authority control integration proposal/RFC DGG ( talk ) 00:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Illwinter Game Design speedy deletion question

Hi DGG,

I just proposed my first two speedy deletions this evening and I'm afraid I may have misunderstood the criteria. I had thought that notability of created works did not necessarily confer notability on the company that created them, and that since there didn't appear to be any reliable sources writing about the comapny (as opposed to their products), the article was ripe for deletion. Would wp:prod have be a more appropriate choice, or is the article sufficient as-is?

Thanks much,

GaramondLethe 03:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The explanation of this is at WP:Deletion policy.

The criteria for keeping an article at speedy are deliberately set to be very undemanding. It's an "indication of importance or significance", which is much less rigorous than WP:N. The idea behind this is that anything that might possibly be notable--even if the article itself does not make much of a case for it-- should not be judged by an individual admin, but by the community. The only articles that an admin can delete via speedy are the ones that unquestionably can not possibly be considered to belong in an encyclopedia. In the absence of the production of the games, I would normally have considered that a very small company like that gave no indication of possible importance, and speedy deleted it. With that information, it needs to be properly considered to see whether references can be found that will more clearly show the notability. I remind you of the general notability standard, WP:GNG, which is a widely accepted guideline, under which it will depend upon what sources can be found. The extent to which the sources write about the company rather than the games is a matter for discussion--the decisions here are often very much disputed interpretations.

As for whether the company is actually notable, the community will decide. In practice, based on experience here, I think it will probably depend upon both the sourcing and on the importance of the games. After all, what makes a company notable except producing notable products? Authors are notable because of the importance of what they write, musicians by what the perform, companies by what they produce. Our practice for authors and painters are fairly clear: two notable works = notability; one work, even, if it is important enough. In practice, for companies we tend to be more restrictive. For companies of this sort, that make intellectual products, it is to some extent a matter of judgment. I don't do the judging. No admin has the right to. Only if we are certain the community would remove it can we act for them.

If something indicates possible good-faith significance and you think it not notable, nominate it for prod if you think nobody is likely to disagree. If the prod is challenged, or if disagreement is likely, then AfD is the way to go. For this one, Id use AfD-- after first looking for additional references. DGG ( talk ) 04:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I really appreciate taking the time to give me such a complete response. I particularly take you point about judgement being reserved for the community. There are bits of nuance of editing practice that I'm only going to pick up by making mistakes, and I now have a much better idea where this particular line lies.

Thanks for treating a newbie gently.

Best,

GaramondLethe 05:33, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Mail

Hello, DGG. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Wikimedia New York City Annual Meeting Sat Jun 30

Join us at Jefferson Market Library on Saturday starting at 1pm for our annual meeting and elections, details at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC!--Pharos (talk) 17:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

CSD film

I understand a film can not qualify for CSD, or a book or a school. It seems this area is grey because it is not about a film but instead the concept of a film. I don't see what the author can do in seven days that will change the fact the film is said to be scheduled for release in 2014. It seems a hoax could survive as long as the prankster fabled it around a book or a film, with a future release date no less. IMO StringdaBrokeda (talk) 23:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Even more than a film not qualifying for CSD, a concept for a film, or a concept of any sort, does not qualify for CSD--it's much too uncertain a thing to be unquestionable.. Nor does it qualify for an undoubted hoax, because an undoubted hoax is something that can be seen to be a hoax on the face of it. There have been enough disputes over the application of NOT CRYSTAL to keep that criterion out of CSD territory. If you really want to argue for this, draw up a proposal for WT:CSD, but I think you will find it difficult to word one that will unambiguously apply and not give false positives. And let's avoid WP:BEANS. I don't see that we need worry that something like this would survive, because 7 days will get rid of it. DGG ( talk ) 23:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

No I tend to agree with the clarification given. I simply needed the additional perspective. Thank you. StringdaBrokeda (talk) 23:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Difference between Sam and Diane and Ashton Kutcher on Twitter?

What are differences between these two articles? Well, both were nominated as AFD, yet AFD nomination on Sam and Diane was withdrawn. What are values, including encyclopedic value, of both topics and their articles? --George Ho (talk) 03:04, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

1The article on the characters has real content essential to the understanding of a creative work that would not adequately fit elsewhere. For a long running show, the material can be too complex for a single article. (I make no comment about the quality of the creative work, because I have never seen any of it. But from similar works I do know, I have observed that the understandable way of presenting the material is to discuss the characters, not just go scene by scene through each episode.) 2. In the past, information of characters has tended to be eliminated by slow attrition if not kept separately. If this were to change, I would not support most separate character articles, though I would support their content. One of the problems with Wikipedia is that we have no way of making a decisive ruling on content, only on article inclusion. 3. And if I had to choose between both articles or neither, I would accept both. DGG ( talk ) 03:42, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

How about as "stand-alone articles"? --George Ho (talk) 03:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I consider that primarily a matter of clarity of presentation; how to divide up articles is as much a technical question of style as a question of notability. DGG ( talk ) 03:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Umm.... elaborate? Anyway, just in case: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam and Diane. Only difference I see are fiction and fact. Article one fiction requires real-world commentary, while article on fact... what are requirements? --George Ho (talk) 04:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)C)

The fictional characters article you mentioned has substantial real world commentary. The requirement, in any case, applies to the overall coverage of the work of fiction within Wikipedia--how the overall coverage gets divided up is a matter not of principle, but convenience. As for the twitter article, there is no point discussing it here: that's what the AfD is for, and I think I've said as much there as would be useful. The decision to merge or separate is based not only on whether the topics can stand alone, but on whether that is the best way to deal with it at Wikipedia. There are no firm rules for that, and we consider each case individually. Even the formal WP:N guideline is quite specific that not everything that can technically justify a separate article should necessarily have one.

Personally, I have come to realize that WP:N is a guideline whose entire meaning depends on the way in which we choose to interpret it. In particular, the GNG was conceived in a simpler time when we thought there was a clear distinction between reliable and unreliable sources. Most actual contested AfD decisions depend not on the plain meaning of the guideline, but the interpretation of the various aspects of "reliable". How can it be otherwise? The world is not divided into notable and non notable, and there is only a clear boundary when we adopt some artificial fixed distinction that does not depend on the vagaries of available referencing. The entire meaning of notability is what 'we collectively want to put into Wikipedia.

I recognize the discontent when the initial views at an AfD lead in one's desired direction, and continued argument involving a wider range of Wikipedians changes the consensus. But it is just such extended discussions which bring forth a more general consensus that that of those who are particularly interested in a special subject. Without it, AfD would be overly susceptible to the influence of special interest groups.

You may think I am wrong in either my general approach to WP or to this specific matter. Both are possible. As for the general approach, in don't run the encyclopedia ; as for the specifics, I', far from infallible, and everyone has their own version of reasonable and what common sense requires. DGG ( talk ) 08:26, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Materialscientist#Impact factors and infoboxes

David, could you perhaps give your opinion on this issue? Thanks! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• I moved this down, perhaps you didn't see it... :-) --Guillaume2303 (talk) 07:52, 1 July 2012 (UTC)