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Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit

Request temporarily suspended following formal request of the Arbitration Committee (Special:Diff/669478080). –xeno^talk 13:21, 1 July 2015 (UTC) Taken off hold, this request should remain open for at least 24 hours to allow further bureaucrat review and community comment. –xeno^talk 12:43, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

---

 On hold Request on hold pending comment from the Arbitration Committee.

• Scott (current rights · rights management · rights log (local) · rights log (global/meta) · block log)

Please re-grant my access to the administrative toolkit, which I voluntarily requested be withdrawn in August 2014. I was not "under a cloud" when I did so.

I wish to accompany this request with a statement on the record:

My intention for requesting access to the admin toolkit is to inspect and perform maintenance on page histories - merges, splits, and moves; and to appropriately use revision deletion in any cases where I discover content that contravenes our policies and requires removing from public view. I will also be open to answering requests made of me by users to look into matters of article history or revision deletions; whether in the course of normal encyclopedic production, or investigating possible hoaxes, vandalism, or administrative malfeasance. I am fully cognizant of the requirement that sensitive revision-deleted material may not be disclosed: I never have, and I never will.

The administrative toolkit and role is long overdue being unbundled, but that's exceedingly unlikely to ever happen. Therefore I must indicate which parts of it I have no interest in, and will voluntarily refrain from using. Things that I will not do if I am re-granted access to the admin toolkit:

• Block or unblock any accounts or IP addresses
• Issue any warnings
• Close any discussions
• Participate in any discussions at WP:AN or WP:AN/I, beyond making simple requests at the latter for urgent interventions if absolutely necessary
• Perform any non-"speedy" deletions.

I shall explain the limited degree of my re-engagement with this project on my user page in due course. If verification is required that this account has not been compromised, I can be emailed through the site in the usual fashion, or reached on Twitter as @hex.

Thank you.  — Scott • talk 20:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Comments from bureaucrats

The desysop does not appear to be under a cloud, I don't see a reason that re-sysop should not take place, after the 24 hour waiting period Worm^TT(talk) 08:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Dweller, below

WJBscribe, below

This matter has been raised with the Arbitration Committee (Special:Diff/669231932); I suggest the request be placed on hold pending further comment. –xeno^talk 20:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Taken off hold at 12:43 (UTC), but please allow at least 24 more hours for additional comment and bureaucrat review. –xeno^talk 13:22, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Questions from bureaucrats

WJBscribe, below

Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit (discussion)

Discussion will be re-opened after comment from the Arbitration Committee and remain open for at least another 24 hours to allow further community comment and sufficient bureaucrats time to review the request. Comments regarding user conduct may be made to the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee. –xeno^talk 19:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC) Re-opened. –xeno^talk 12:43, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

---

Considering how well known Hex is for promoting off-wiki drama causing distress to many Wikimedians, and even today is attracting drama in support of Eric Barbour, I see every reason to expect a RFA where Hex/Scott's suitability for access to deleted information can be discussed by the wider community. --Fæ (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunatelt 'crats do not have authority to refuse resysopping on those grounds. If you wish to petition for a desysopping, ArbCom would be the only appropriate venue. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 14:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Basically, what Salvidrim! said. This would require a Crat operating outside their charter. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Could you direct me to the policy that forces automatic resysopping rather than allowing you to not act on a request? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Crats can't be compelled to act if they choose not to, but it is unlikely that all of them will refuse to act and let it die on the table. It has never happened, and would have blowback from the community that elected them to do these things. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

That said the timescales can be extended for a reasonable period if vetting is likely to take longer. I'd be happy to suggest that happens, but "creating drama" (which can be a very good thing) isn't a reason I'd accept for such an extension. Worm^TT(talk) 14:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Having the ability to use trusted sysop privileges to fuel drama, or to intentionally cause personal distress to Wikipedians, off-wiki, can never be a very good thing. It is this aspect of the possible use of sysop privileges that would be examined in an RFA and that Scott would then have the opportunity to reassure everyone by setting their commitment to the mission of this project on the record. Having a Wikipedian call you a "notable Jimbotalk growth" is bad enough (quoting an off-wiki post by Scott this afternoon), but to have a trusted administrator do so when they create a discussion off-wiki in support of Eric Barbour, cannot be interpreted as collegiate behaviour. I seriously doubt that anyone being abused by being called a "growth" would feel the tools are in trustworthy and respectful hands. --Fæ (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

This is apparently a longstanding problem. One of the participants in this drama cited a failed policy proposal, WP:BADSITES, as vindication for his view that what goes off wiki stays off wiki and is of no relevancy whatsoever here. Like all utterly illogical trains of thought on Wikipedia, this one isn't even halfway rational. Skimming the five archives of discussions on the badsites talk page, it's very plain that this is a divisive issue and not some badge of honor that should be worn by administrators and checkusers who choose to administer or moderate websites that attack editors, or use such sites as safe harbors for behavior that would get them sanctioned here. Since "conflict of interest" is a strange and alien concept on Wikipedia, it is not surprising that people feel that way, and become livid with rage when the status quo is questioned, viewing it as an attack on their liberty or whatever. Coretheapple (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

That'd be WP:RESYSOP, Fae. As long as he is who he says he is and didn't resign to evade scrutiny or avoid sanctions, the admin right should be restored. Worm^TT(talk) 14:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Questions - was any of this alleged misconduct taking place at the time Scott resigned his access? Were any steps being taken in relation to it at that time? WJBscribe (talk) 17:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Without comment on this particular request (I haven't had the time to review it in detail), but it seems that objections to procedural resysoppings have become more common lately, which will in turn make administrators less likely to give up their tools in situations when it may be prudent for whatever reason (be it account security, personal reasons, needing a break, etc.).
  The community may wish to implement a lightweight desysopping process, but shoehorning it into the resysopping process as a "gotcha" is not the way to go. –xeno^talk 15:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I do not believe that Scott wants these tools for the benefit of WP, but rather to further his campaign, via his active membership at Wikipediocracy, against WP and also to persist in outing and harassing WP editors through that site. His latest one is just today [1] (posted here because public threads at WO have a habit of disappearing if the wrong public sees them)

Andy Dingley has a go at EricBarbour

Dingley has posted at the conflict of interest noticeboard that he thinks Metasonix should have a notice on it and its talk page, despite the glaring fact that EricBarbour has been blocked since 2009. Alison made this very obvious observation and removed the tag, but has run into resistance, including from notable Jimbotalk growth Coretheapple. Barrel-scraping in support of a grudge as usual.

Andy Dingley (talk) 15:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I really should support, since this is precisely the kind of thing that makes non-admins cynical about admins: their life tenure, the double standard applied to their conduct, the easy-peasy way they slip slide through the rules, the sheer idiocy of referring to their super-user status as a "mop" or as "tools." Yes, if we simply apply logic, this account needs "tools" the way an elephant needs an umbrella. But let's just be rigid and give him back his super-user status (his "tools") because it is the Wikipedia Way(r) to ignore common sense. Why don't we double down on the stupidity and make him a checkuser? Coretheapple (talk) 16:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• I can see no reason in policy why we should deny this request and it should therefore be done at the end of the 24 hours wait period, unless another bureaucrat objects in the meantime. --Dweller (talk) 16:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  There's no rush - 24 hours is a guideline - nothing has to happen at the end of that period. I for one would like to allow sufficient time for members of the community to articulate their opposition so that we can consider it fully. WJBscribe (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  Wikipedians who discuss Scott's off-wiki campaign, have to be prepared to be targeted by friends of Hex off-wiki for daring to speak. Due to our policies (apart from when Arbcom sometimes choses to recognize it), off wiki behaviour is considered irrelevant to a complaint about behaviour on wiki. In response to my raising the issue here, poisonous allegations about my sex life have been posted in reply to Scott's thread, and this threatened more cyberbullying unless I cease writing here. It is not possible to separate Scott from the years long history of their off wiki toxic posts about the same Wikipedians that he is interacting with on wiki. He should be accountable for feeding banned internet trolls that act as his attack dogs by frightening others from sticking their head above the parapet. Anyone that habitually behaves this way, and is granted access privileges to our project, should expect to give a full account of their actions. The evidence is carefully kept off-wiki, just Google for the malicious crap and chumming of the waters he has chosen to post over the last few years, it's not hard to stumble across. --Fæ (talk) 19:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• A simple request for restoration of admin toolset resigned under non controversial circumstances. User is not subject to any sanctions and has given a detailed rationale for his request even though he is under no obligation to do so. I see no policy based reason for the bureaucrats to not proceed with the resysop. - NQ (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Not to labor it, but "oppose" and "support" have no meaning here. You can provide the Crats with information about how resysoping would be against current policy, but their actions have nothing to do with consensus, only policy. This isn't RFA version 2. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Question/Comment Being that there is cause for concern with returning the tools, are the burecrats here claiming "There is no current policy justification for withholding the tools" looking for something like a Writ of Mandamus/Writ of Certiorari from ArbCom/Jimbo to CYA for this new normal? Hasteur (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@Hasteur: Could you explain what you mean? –xeno^talk 18:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@Xeno: I'm getting a feeling of the Bureaucrats saying "Our hands are tied" in the face of the current policy. What I'm asking is if a motion by ArbCom (or a Jimbo proclamation) directing you to not restore the rights (or exercise discretion) in light of the circumstances. Hasteur (talk) 18:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If the Arbitration Committee were to issue a motion formally revoking Scott's administrative privileges, or a temporary injunction asking that the permissions not be restored for the time being as they are considering such a motion, this would be compelling. If someone does formally engage arbitration, please leave a note here and bureaucrats will decide whether to place the request on hold. –xeno^talk 18:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It strikes me that denying on the basis of there being a risk of a retired editor who left out of bitterness requesting the tools back for the purpose of off-site harassment is exactly the kind of thing that WP:IAR exists for. Given there is no indication Scott intends to re-engage with Wikipedia beyond his "investigations", I think any decision on re-instating the tools should be deferred at least until Scott follows through on his promise to explain his purpose. Parallel to that, if Fae et al's concerns are viewed as credible, then I would suggest this request is made under a cloud, and it should be left up to the community to decide via a fresh RFA. Resolute 19:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think creating a desysop procedure adhoc is an ideal course: as noted below, these concerns belong at a separate venue and are being heard at arbitration now. –xeno^talk 20:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Granted, and now moot given Arbcom has gotten involved, but at the same time, I don't like "our hands are tied" as an excuse when concerns of this nature are raised. There's a gap here that may warrant a policy change. Resolute 23:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Fæ, Coretheapple, and Andy Dingley: as others have noted, the resysop procedure is not a fresh review of a users' suitability for adminship. Without comment on the present case, if you feel a user requesting procedural re-adminship should not have access to the administrative tools, you should consider engaging arbitration. Further to my comment above at 18:47, bureaucrats would be compelled to revoke adminship or reject a request for re-adminship if the committee were to issue a motion or engage desysop procedures. –xeno^talk 19:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

There are a good many admins at WP who deserve a good desysopping, but ArbCom has a poor record of achieving anything useful in that direction.

PS - The Wikipediocracy thread has, as predicted, now been hidden. Still, there are plenty of WO-active admins left who can see it. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Bureaucrats are not an investigative or disciplinary body. –xeno^talk 20:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Rather amusing that a forum that routinely bitches about things being done in secrecy frequently lacks transparency itself. Resolute 23:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@Resolute: I'd prefer that we focus on the actual matter at hand and keep comments not directly related to it to a minimum. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 00:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit (request for hold)

• ArbCom have received private communication regarding this request and are considering it along with comments made on this thread. We would appreciate it if the 'crats would hold off on actioning this request for now until. Hopefully we'll get back to in less than 2 days, but we are busy at present so that is not a promise (sorry). Thryduulf (talk) 20:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  I've suggested it be placed on hold pending additional comment; if you think a formal comment will take more than 24-48 hours, please consider issuing a temporary injunction. (less relevant as user indicated they do not mind the delay) –xeno^talk 20:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  Seconded. --Dweller (talk) 20:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  Agreed Worm^TT(talk) 20:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  I hope I'm not out of line in suggesting that you close this discussion in the meantime. The evil voodoo drama spirits seem to be running wild through the Wikipedia neighborhood of the interwebs today. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 20:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  My concern with that is that Thryduulf indicated the committee was considering "comments made on the thread"; suspending the thread would prevent further community comments (and without a formal case filing, it wouldn't be entirely clear where such comments should be made). There are also outstanding questions that would have bearing on the processing of the request if the committee declines to take any action. –xeno^talk 20:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Noted. If it looks like it's going to take us more than 48 hours we'll issue a temporary injunction, but based on discussion so far it will be evening US time before we are in a position to know that. Thryduulf (talk) 20:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. –xeno^talk 20:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• I well understand that the Arbitration Committee is busy with more pressing matters. I'm in no hurry with this request and am available for a drama-free chat by email at any time that suits.  — Scott • talk 20:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • While I understand that ArbCom intervention might be needed to put this request on hold from a "bureaucratic" point of view, it would also probably raise the drama level. Depending on the outcome, that might happen anyway (indeed, unfortunately, it's more likely than not to happen no matter how this is ultimately handled) ... but perhaps Scott's statement that he's in no hurry could be considered as his consenting to a temporary delay, thus eliminating the need for a formal ArbCom action at this early stage. (Noting that I'm not commenting on the merits of the request at all.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks, NYB. I'm absolutely happy for a delay to this process, of whatever duration.  — Scott • talk 22:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Sensible as always. Thanks for your patience, Scott - we will hold for comment. –xeno^talk 13:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit (break)

• Comment I have had no dealings with User:Scott that I recall, and as far as his involvement in 'pediocracy goes his essay/blog post on Liquid Threads is on its face a good summary of what not to do. Nonetheless it it a matter for consternation when an editor who has "flounced", instead of coming back to the project to edit comes back to look at deleted revisions - specifically saying "I will also be open to answering requests made of me by users to look into matters of article history or revision deletions".

It seems to me that this sets alarum bells off, especially in the context of 'pediaocracy, who, while they claim to have moved forward from Wikipedia Review, is still an essentially "bash Wikipedia" and specifically "bash [other] Wikipedains" club.

It would perhaps be useful to know what specific revision deletions User:Scott wants to look into, and for which users.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC).

You've completely misread my statement of purpose. Perhaps it was ambiguous - the answer to your question is none. Everything I mentioned is part of the standard admin toolkit, of which I only find several components worthwhile. Regards.  — Scott • talk 13:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

To clarify (since I didn't ask a specific question): are you confirming that you currently have no particular or general edits, histories, deletions, areas of interest or client users in mind? I do not necessarily have a problem if you do, provided you are happy to share that information openly. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC).

Yes, I can confirm that without hesitation.  — Scott • talk 17:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

While I am sympathetic to the observations made by Rich, which lead to the obvious query, I am strongly opposed to asking such questions. I realize the question has been asked and answered so this may sound like locking the barn door, but one of the things that concerns me about our organizational structure is the imbalance of power. My main concerns arise when an admin blocks and editor and the editor must find the right words to become unblocked. I think abuse is extremely rare but I want to make sure it is closer to nonexistent. On rare occasions, I have seen hints that the blocky must make statements unrelated to the original reason for blocking in order to be considered for unblocking. While understandable that's an abuse of power. I don't want us to fall into the same trap here. We've established a policy that if an admin voluntarily gives up tools not under a cloud they simply have to ask for them back. We do not get to say "now that you don't have the tools and you want them back is a few questions I'd like answered and if you don't answer them satisfactorily you might not get the tools back". I get that there might be special circumstances in this situation and I'll let ARBCOM investigate those off-camera. However, should there be a declination to return the tools, it had better be for an extremely strong reason and not simply that someone is unhappy with something Scott has done and now have a good chance to keep him from getting back the tools. On a related point, I do want to thank Scott for agreeing to a delay. ARBCOM does have quite a number of things on their plate, and I am sure that handling this on an emergency basis would not be easy. Giving them the time to sort this out on a more relaxed timeframe helps everyone.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you S Philbrick. While I do agree that this isn't "RfA Round 2", I'm happy to answer some of the questions posed calmly down here, especially if they reveal some ambiguity in my original statement. That said, I also reserve the right not to answer questions if they start resembling RfA too much.  — Scott • talk 16:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, "imbalance of power" is the central issue here, but not as you portray it. Administrators have far more power than ordinary users, are indeed super-users. What Rich was doing was trying to inject a note of common sense into a process of reinstating super-user status to a person who has behaved in an offensive manner while navigating the rules so as to stay on the "right side of the law." Wikipedia administrators know the rules very well, they know how to "play the game," and I think there is a growing sense that they are just a bit too adept and cynical at working the system. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, yet when it comes to situations like this, when super-users are dealing with members of their own fraternity, I sometimes think that Wikipedia is indeed a very rigid bureaucracy indeed. Coretheapple (talk) 14:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I would never have even raised a comment, had Scott not specifically mentioned looking at revdels for other users - which is of course commendable honesty. I have not challenged his "right" to his bit back, nor would I (indeed I never supported, for example, the six month inactivity removal rule). All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC).

• Comment Apologies but I no longer log into my old account anymore. It's been a couple years, but I still check community pages to see what is going on, and I feel inclined to comment here. There's really only one thing that bothers me about your resysop request Scott. You said you have no interest and do not plan to use the administrative bit for blocks or unblocks, issuing any warnings, closing any discussions, participating at discussions at WP:AN-AN/I (except simple requests) and performing any non-"speedy" deletions. If you perform any blocks, or undertake any actions that you specifically said you would not do if you were resysopped, will you have adminship removed from your account "under a cloud"? That being said, I don't like the thought of granting accounts advanced permissions but with limitations of what tools they will or will not use. If you're requesting to be an administrator again, just request all the toolkit back. Otherwise, anything you said you weren't going to do, and then decide to do one day will be scrutinized. 73.171.146.172 (talk) 15:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Hi, 73 (do you mind if I call you 73?). That's a perfectly valid question. There's no technical way of my not being able to do those things, which means that it has to rest on my honesty. While I don't know of any policy basis that would put me "under a cloud" for breaking my word (and forever tarring myself as a rotten liar), perhaps having broken such a public pledge on my part relating to administration would be sufficient for ArbCom to reconsider whether I should retain administrator privileges. Hard to say, really. Regarding your second point - I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I'm afraid. I've felt that the administrator role should be broken apart for the last ten years, and I'm not about to change my mind now. And really, there's no practical difference between me not doing those things now and not having done some of them in the past (or indeed any administrator not doing some of them, as many don't). There's only the difference of transparency and honesty on my part about my intentions. Best wishes.  — Scott • talk 15:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
    • That was more or less my concern, if that you prepared to be called a 'rotten liar', should you happen to actually participate in areas you said you weren't, because I would expect a cavalcade of editors looking to lynch you should you block someone. I would prefer you just want the whole bit back. That being said as well, I have been a proponent of the tools being broken up in the past too, so I don't disagree there. It's just not realistic to make that promise because eventually, there will be an exception. 73.171.146.172 (talk) 16:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
      • Well, indeed. Let me put it this way: I hate blocking people. Hate. It. And I've got over 12 years with this project that going against my word would tarnish. The motivation for me to cleave to my intentions is gigantic.  — Scott • talk 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comments (1) FWIW, the fairly large component of Wikipediocracy staff and trusted senior members who are also admins has helped to reduce the frequency (or at least persistence) of false accusations against admins who are in fact using deletions and revdels to protect privacy (as opposed to "covering something up"). I think that's part of what Scott has in mind.

  (2) One of the advantages to not having term limits on the bits is that "emeritus" admins can pick up the stray piece of litter they happen to wander across, help break a logjam, and be able to see the logs in a checking and balancing manner (this is why Wikimedia's wikis can't have only one checkuser or oversighter).

  (3) As long as an admin is still trusted not to use the tools in a way that violates policy, this shouldn't be a big deal anyway. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 15:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Thanks, SBJ. Regarding RevDel, yes, you've put it well. In the past I've found and fixed incorrect use of the feature by admins, acting completely on my own behalf as an admin, and have likewise been able to scotch misguided accusations of impropriety on Wikipediocracy against admins who've used the feature correctly. Revision deletion is a feature that is easily misunderstood, and it aids us all if someone is able to say, for example, "admin X hid those revisions because an IP user had inserted offensive comments about this BLP subject's family". That's what I meant by my original comments about the feature.  — Scott • talk 16:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I agree and commend such uses. However it is often extremely difficult to tread the line between keeping confidential information confidential, and explaining why something was done. Currently we tend to being over-confidential in general practice, but that is probably preferable to "over-sharing". All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC).
      
      • Absolutely. It's not healthy to go around shouting about every revision deletion, but it's not healthy to keep completely schtum in the face of legitimate questions about administrative practice if they happen to arise. I've tread that line correctly in the past, and struck a similar balance in professional contexts also.  — Scott • talk 17:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Temporary injunction regarding the restoration of Scott's admin privileges

The Arbitration Committee requests that restoration of adminship for Scott requested at the bureaucrats' noticeboard be suspended while the Committee communicates with him.

Supporting: Seraphimblade, Thryduulf, Courcelles, Salvio giuliano, NativeForeigner, Euryalus, Doug Weller, Yunshui

Recusing: GorillaWarfare; Abstaining: Roger Davies

For the Arbitration Committee, Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 13:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Temporary injunction regarding the restoration of Scott's admin privileges

 Done. Comments or questions about the injunction itself should be at WT:ACN though bureaucratic implications of the injunction may be raised here. –xeno^talk 13:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by "bureaucratic implications of the injunction"? You've already hatted a dialogue that I was attempting to have with Scott about the off-wiki comments that are the reason we are here. That's not the "elephant in the room," it's the room. In hatting Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit (break 2) you utilized the ridiculous notation that it should be discussed at his user page. Really? In the discussion that you hatted, Scott refused to discuss the comments that he made off-wiki that are the very reason we are here, saying that such queries are not "policy based," whatever that means. "Bureaucratic" indeed. The utter cynicism of this entire proceeding is really bordering on self-parody. Coretheapple (talk) 13:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with Core. I am a completely uninvolved editor who has this page watchlisted. There is an awful lot to be concerned about in this matter, both in Scott's demeanor on and off wiki, and in the process itself, as Core notes. Jusdafax 14:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

So why not raise them at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Temporary_injunction_regarding the_restoration_of_Scott.27s_admin_privileges? Arbcom has in effect called this one in, taken it from the crats and has opened that page for discussion. ϢereSpielChequers 14:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Jusdafax 14:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple I collapsed the discussion in part because it may be rendered moot by committee decision and also because Scott withdrew from the discussion: if you want to attempt to continue to the dialog you should feel free to do so on his talk page. The bureaucrats' noticeboard is not a forum for grievances - there are more appropriate venues to raise user conduct concerns, especially since the committee took up the matter. I must admit I find your criticism confusing: you asked us not to restore Scott's administrator priveleges because of a user conduct concern, we referred you to the correct body to review this concern, have suspended the request pending their decision, and we have proceeded cautiously at every step. What more would you ask? –xeno^talk 17:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Rescinding the temporary injunction regarding the restoration of Scott's admin privileges

The committee has resolved most of the concerns raised, and after discussing the remaining issue directly with Scott, his replies have satisfied us. The Arbitration Committee thus rescinds its temporary injunction dated 1 July 2015 at the bureaucrats' noticeboard.

Supporting: Doug Weller, Salvio giuliano, Seraphimblade, NativeForeigner, Yunshui, Euryalus, LFaraone, AGK

Opposing: Thryduulf, Courcelles, DGG, DeltaQuad

Abstaining: Roger Davies

Recusing: GorillaWarfare

For the Arbitration Committee, Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 12:27, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Rescinding the temporary injunction regarding the restoration of Scott's admin privileges

Thank you, I've re-opened the discussion. –xeno^talk 12:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Request for restoration of access to administrative toolkit (re-opened)

The injunction having been lifted, the discussion is re-opened and should remain for at least 24 hours before being processed. Please note a question from a bureaucrat above remains unanswered: "was any of this alleged misconduct taking place at the time Scott resigned his access? Were any steps being taken in relation to it at that time?". –xeno^talk 12:43, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The question would have been better phrased as "Were any steps being taken in relation to any actions by Scott at the time that he resigned his access?" I can also provide the answer, which is no. (For reference, noticeboards on 22 August 2014: WP:BN, WP:AN, WP:ANI.)  — Scott • talk 13:11, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Xeno that we should leave this open for at least 24 hours. However, if Arbcom is satisfied that there is no (desysop-worthy) misconduct, what are we, the bureaucrats, going to find or hear to say that Scott either resigned under a cloud, or that there are other exceptional circumstances as to why we can't do the procedural resysoping? Typically, the weather report is the bureaucrats' responsibility (and so far it's a cloudless report), and the "exceptional circumstances" bit is really more of the Arbcom's problem. And Arbcom rescinded their injunction. So at this stage, I see no reason as to why we cannot resysop Scott. Maxim_(talk) 13:21, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The previous discussion shouldn't've been closed. ArbCom is a kangaroo court and has no authority to issue temporary injunctions here.

Scott: just out of curiosity, are you open to recall? I didn't see a mention of it on your user page.

In re-reading MeatBall, I wish we could find a way to make Wikipedia feel more like that. It's freer and more fun and more honest, I think. --MZMcBride (talk) 15:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Technically, it was only paused (and users were free to comment in the newer sections and did so). The committee's authority to issue a "temporary injunction", in my mind, flows from their ability to issue a WP:LEVEL2 desysop, indeed simply the "request for hold" was sufficient given Scott's patience and the built-in ability for resysop requests to be held for longer periods of time so that information gathering and bureaucrat deliberation can occur. Once we push the button to resysop, there is no policy-based way for bureaucrats to reverse or review the decision. To ignore a "request for hold" (even if issued in legalese) and go ahead with a resysop request without waiting for their comment would be imprudent: it would only serve to heighten the drama and tension while potentially force the committee to rush to action using Level 2 procedures. –xeno^talk 16:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

• The last time that Arb jumped into a resysopping (ironically, the last resysopping we had) Xeno decided to just leave it open an addition 12 hours, since there had already been plenty of time for vetting, the Kevin Gorman case, in the most recent archive. That would seems to be a reasonable precedent since more than 24 hours have passed since the start of this, and any dirt that there was to dig up would have already been dug by now. Starting the clock from the time Arb signed off would be appropriate, as there has been ample "process" in this process. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:59, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

  The circumstances of this request are different; it is a Sunday (of a long weekend in some places); and, I promised to leave the discussion open at least another 24 hours when I placed it hold ealier. I'm sure Scott will indulge us leaving this open at least short while longer. –xeno^talk 16:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

  That is fair enough. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:37, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

• In my opinion, for the purposes of this discussion it should not matter whether Arbcom is satisfied concerning desysop-worthy misconduct that happened well after the voluntary self-desysoping. If voluntary self-desysoping does not happen under a cloud, procedural resysoping should be approved as a matter of course. The basic principle should be this: If Scott had kept the tools would he have them removed at this time? If the answer is yes, then procedural resysoping should not occur. If the answer is no, then voluntary self-desysoping followed later by a request for procedural resysoping should make zero difference. What we absolutely don't want is for anyone to be reluctant to lay down the tools because there may be difficulties when they try to pick them up again. The ability to freely turn the admin bit on and off is an important security feature. anything that motivates anyone to keep the tools when they have no intention of using them weakens Wikipedia's security by a small amount.

As a real-life example, consider my personal situation. I sometimes travel to China to work on engineering tasks related to the toy industry and am the target of sophisticated industrial espionage. I can still edit Wikipedia using TAILS and TOR on a laptop that never leaves my side (I am IP block exempt for just this purpose) and then changing my passphrase and reviewing all of my own edits when I get back to the US. If I were an administrator I would temporarily self-desysop before I left and ask for a procedural resysoping when I returned. Keeping the tools would be a security risk to Wikipedia if my account were to be compromised. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Of course, bureaucrats were not appointed to determine the answer to the question "would [we]^? have removed them at this time?", that lays with the Arbitration Committee. And now, since the committee has not issued any permanent motion concerning Scott's administrative privileges, there seems to be no barrier to restoring Scott's administrative tools tomorrow unless it can be shown that the tools were relinquished to evade "scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions". –xeno^talk 16:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

That Arb has jumped into the last two resysops is a bit odd, you have to admit. I try to assume the best of faith, but at the same time, Guy is correct. While I gave up the admin bit in January for a break due to real world issues, there was some hesitation that a single individual at Arb could jam up the whole thing and cast doubt on my admin eligibility. It was more than a passing concern, but in the end I took what I felt was a "risk", as it was the best thing for enwp. Losing the tools isn't that big of a deal, however, losing them due to unrelated or imaginary reasons would be a pisser. There isn't a trust issue with the Crats that I know of. There has been trust issues with Arb for almost as long as I've been an editor, often for good reason. I think the Crats handled it well both times, but both times, there was no issue in the end, which begs why the delay was so delayed by Arb, assuming the evidence was so compelling as to get them to ask you to stop, instead of waiting until after they had the bit back and starting formal proceedings if needed. It isn't Arb's job to normally review resysops, and they are batting 2 for 2 over the last month, pushing Crats into the political fray and making everyone a bit on edge. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:37, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

As I said earlier, such trends are likely to make administrators more reluctant to hand in their tools for whatever reason and this is unfortunate. The current policy at Wikipedia:Administrators#After voluntary removal is clear in that bureaucrats are asked to return the tools following voluntary removal except in very limited circumstances (account compromised or resigned "under a cloud").

Trying to expand the circumstances where bureaucrats decline to restore the tools via "opposition" to individual resysop requests is not appropriate: an amendment to the administrators policy should instead be sought if the community wishes bureaucrats to decline to restore the tools in other situations (though adding "coming back under a cloud" will only result in even more contentious resysop requests and further deter administrators from relinquishing their privileges).

Having the perspective of serving on the committee in the past (including as a sometimes-coordinator of decision-making), I understand the delay; and due to the nature of the objection, I can understand why they might prefer the ability to review deleted revisions was not restored until they had adequately reviewed the concerns and satisfied themselves that administrative privileges would not be used inappropriately (or in the previous case, that any remaining account security issues had been resolved).

I think we should be careful not to "blame the process": a set of unique circumstances was presented in both cases and the process was engaged to achieve the policy-based consensus result as set out in the various processes in place. We can criticize or try to change a process, but this should be done separately from individual runs of the process. –xeno^talk 19:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Crat chat

See Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Rich Farmbrough 2/Bureaucrat discussion. Maxim_(talk) 13:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Inactive administrators

Looking at Wikipedia:Inactive administrators/2015, it seems the notification bot did not run properly for July 2015. --Rschen7754 18:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like the bot may have gone on holiday with it's operator. I'll send out the notes presently while we await for their return (or replacement if Madman can no longer host this task). –xeno^talk 18:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Has anyone tried emailing Madman? The bot stopped running when WMF labs was out - so presumably it just needs to be restarted? I don't know anything about WMF labs - does it have administrators that can restart someone else's process or is Madman the only person who can do it? If we're reasonably convinced that he is gone and nobody else is planning to do so, I could write a process to take over the task. --B (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Not that I know of, I was hoping they had email notifications enabled and wouldve gotten a note after Graham's message. –xeno^talk 23:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC) (I've now emailed them, in case. –xeno^talk 23:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC))

Remove sysop powers

Greetings. I request removal of my sysop duties due to my inactivity. Thank you, - Mtmelendez ^(Talk) 00:46, 6 July 2015 (UTC)