Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Current disputes

Talk:Raven's Home#Cory in the House

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 97.127.112.18 on 06:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Raven's Home#Cory in the House (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Amaury (talk · contribs) Callmemirela (talk · contribs) MPFitz1968 (talk · contribs) Geraldo Perez (talk · contribs) IJBall (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The dispute is over whether or not the TV show "Cory in the House" should be listed in the "preceded by" box on the TV show "Raven's Home"'s page. The show "Raven's Home" is the second spin-off another show called "That's So Raven", and as such I added "Cory in the House" in the preceded box because they are all in the same show universe, and "Raven's Home" comes after "Cory in the House" chronologically. One user keeps removing it, yet has seems to have no interest in having an actual conversation about it's conclusion. They have been dismissive of my point of view, they have given conflicting statements on website rules to match their point of view, and have told me that a consensus needs to be reached, even though one has not. There have been other users who have weighed in, but overall their has not been a consensus for whether or not to list the show in the preceded by box. The user was the one who told me consensus is needed, yet their last message, was "'Kay. Whatever helps you feel better. If you refuse to let this go, I think it will just be better if we all just ignore you and not make any further responses to you.". That is not helping to reach one. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Have not currently taken other steps because the user has been dismissive of having further conversation. How do you think we can help? Involvement from more parties, probably Wikipedia staff, would be helpful to this issue as the user involved clearly has no interest in talking about the issue. There last message flat out said they would ignore further comments from me. That is not reaching a consensus. Summary of dispute by Amaury Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Callmemirela This dispute involves more than one party. To summarize this, the IP argues that Cory in the House should be included in the preceded by of the infobox of Raven's Home. CITH (mind the abbreviation, it's long) was a spin-off show of That's So Raven and occurred after the original show's airing. Raven's Home occurred after the airing of CITH. However, the dispute is about whether Raven's Home is preceded by CITH. Raven's Home does not proceed after CITH. It proceeds the original show. The show's star, Raven-Symoné, even said herself it was "That's So Raven 2" back when she announced the sequel. CITH has nothing to do with this show. I tried asking the IP let it go as more than one user has said that CITH does not proceed the sequel show. But here we are. PS: The IP did not inform the user above. Callmemirela 🍁 talk 15:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC) Talk:Raven's Home#Cory in the House discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. I concur with Callmemirela's summary here. There are multiple people, myself included, that oppose listing any relationship to Cory in the House, which is an independent spinoff of That's So Raven, and which has absolutely no relationship to the Raven's Home TV series. Also, please see this discussion: Talk:Raven's Home#Cory in the House – to say that it "hasn't been discussed" is inaccurate. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC) Part of the problem is the interpretation of the "preceded_by" attribute in Template:Infobox television, which I brought up in the article's talk page discussion. The first part of the instructions for that state: If Show A was a predecessor of Show B, insert the name of Show A and production years. (Name in italics (linked if possible) followed by year-to-year in parentheses, e.g. That Ol' Show (1956–1957).) Very little to go on, and it can be left open to mean how the filer of this dispute is interpreting it, as being part of the franchise that started with That's So Raven. But I side with Callmemirela and IJBall on not including Cory in the House. That and Raven's Home do spin off from That's So Raven, but they don't share the same branch of a tree (analogy not my wording, and apologies to whoever I'm borrowing this from, but analogy fits well in this case). MPFitz1968 (talk) 16:25, 24 July 2017 (UTC) I agree with all the above as well. I'll say this, as IJBall mentioned, discussion did take place and consensus was that it shouldn't be included, and now this IP is unhappy that it didn't go their way and came here to try to cause trouble. Contrary to their claim, I am perfectly happy to discuss issues and wasn't dismissive from the get-go. I was only dismissive—or however you want to phrase it—once it was clear that they weren't going to drop the stick and move on; instead, they just kept going around in pointless circles. Consensus was against them and they refused to accept it. Amaury (talk | contribs) 16:47, 24 July 2017 (UTC) It has nothing to do with me being unhappy or upset, and I'm not hear to cause trouble. I'm trying to have a conversation and you are being completely rude. It's your attitude throughout the whole process, and based on what others have said, it doesn't look like CLEAR consensus. There are people who said they had reservations on the issue, but didn't really care about whether or not to include it or not. Only two users have expressed clear opposition on the talk page, while I wanted it included, another did not care either way, and yet another did not give a defineite yes or not. That is not consensus. Not to mention, one user said one thing about the rules in this matter, and then you came in and changed what you thought they were to fit your narrative. That is my main problem, the clarity of the situation. --97.127.112.18 (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC) Volunteer note - Keep discussion here to a minimum until a volunteer opens discussion. There has been discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:30, 25 July 2017 (UTC) First statement by moderator: Hello, I am Kostas20142, the moderator of this discussion. Will each editor please describe in one paragraph what do they believe that the issues are, after reading these rules  ? --Kostas20142 (talk) 07:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC) Not sure why this is necessary, as this was discussed above, but here goes: the Disney Channel series That's So Raven (2003–2007), which starred Raven-Symoné as Raven, has now spawned two subsequent spinoff series: Cory in the House (2007–2008), which focused on Raven's brother and father, and Raven's Home (2017) which is more of a "sequel" than a spinoff, and which again focuses on Raven, and her best friend from That's So Raven, and their now-children. The specific issue in this case concerns whether the Preceded by parameter in the infobox at Raven's Home should include just That's So Raven, or That's So Raven AND Cory in the House. As Cory in the House is viewed as a spinoff that is "independent" of Raven's Home (as it does not concern the character of Raven at all), the consensus seems to be that Preceded by in the infobox should only include That's So Raven. Previous discussion can be found at Talk:Raven's Home#Cory in the House. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:39, 27 July 2017 (UTC) I concur with the above. If the IP's claims about this not having to do with the consensus at the aforementioned discussion by IJBall is true, then this should have never been filed to begin with as it was already resolved on the article's talk page. Amaury (talk | contribs) 14:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC) I, the filer of this dispute, do not agree that there has been a clear consensus reached. Up until I put this discussion here, they had be only one user on each side of the argument, me for the inclusion of the disputed item, and Amaury against it. While other users did come to the discussion, they did not provide definite answers or sides to the argument. IJall came in with his opinion and as far as they were considered, 2 vs 1 was automatically a consensus reached and I was told to get over it. However, my problem is still not solved in my mindset. Other users have made it clear that there is no definite rule for the "Preceded by" box on tv shows, and if there is no definite rule, there is no reason not to list "Cory in the House" in the template as all three shows fall within the same TV show universe, in my personal opinion. That is why I have asked for moderation in this debate. I am fully willing to accept the outcome even if it is not in my favor, but I do not appreciate told to get over it and "I think it will just be better if we all just ignore you and not make any further responses to you." That is no constructive to editing on this site. --97.127.112.18 (talk) 04:28, 28 July 2017 (UTC) Second statement by moderator: Looking at the template documentation page, I also found a field named related for related shows, such as spinoffs. Would both parties be satisfied if we included only That's So Raven in Preceded by and added Cory in the House in related ?? --Kostas20142 (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2017 (UTC) Yeah, we're aware of that parameter. The thing is, it doesn't matter what the parameter that we use is, Cory in the House has no relation whatsoever to Raven's Home. They are completely unrelated. That's So Raven and Cory in the House are related and That's So Raven and Raven's Home are related, but Cory in the House and Raven's Home have nothing to do with each other and have no relation at all. Raven's Home doesn't even have any starring cast from Cory in the House which further proves the point, but it does have two starring cast from That's So Raven. Also, the IP's claims that IJBall and myself were the only people opposed to including Cory in the House on the article's talk page are outright wrong. Callmemirela was also clearly opposed to including Cory in the House, so that's three-to-one. MPFitz1968 originally wasn't sure, but later opposed above, so that's four-to-one. Geraldo Perez is kind of our wild card as he's half opposed to it in that it didn't matter to him quite as much either way, but he did lean toward not including it. If you want to look at it this way, that's four and a half-to-one. Amaury (talk | contribs) 07:58, 28 July 2017 (UTC) I concur with Amaury – switching to the Related parameter just side-steps the issue, and I agree with Amaury in that Cory in the House isn't really even "related" to Raven's Home. As I said above, they are both spinoffs of That's So Raven, but are essentially independent spinoffs of each other. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:25, 28 July 2017 (UTC) third statement by moderator Valid arguments supporting that the shows are not related have been presented. @97.127.112.18:, do you have anything that can support the opposite? Also, would any other parties like to propose a solution to the issue?--Kostas20142 (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)  Comment: I have assessed the discussion in talk page and I actually ser a consensus (I would like to remind to everyone though that it doesn't have to do with numbers). This means that including the show in preceded by is not a valid solution. It can only be done if a new consensus is reached. This would ideally need an RfC, but the chances of success are low. --Kostas20142 (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2017 (UTC) I will admit that I did miss Callmemirela's response and it is a very short one that kind of got sandwiched in between larger responses, but that user said "this is what the box is for", even though it was stated abouve that that site rules are vague about the parameter usage and MPFitz1968 did not disagree with it, they said discussion was need. Saying that Raven's Home and Cory in the House are not related in any way is just false. As I said, they are all part of the same TV universe, and Raven, the titular character and actor in both That's So Raven and Raven's Home appears in Cory in the House. I would totally be fine with included CITH as "related", but is it even possible to feature both a related and preceded parameter in the same box? --97.127.112.18 (talk) 05:42, 29 July 2017 (UTC) the documentation does not forbid it. --Kostas20142 (talk) 14:07, 30 July 2017 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderator: From what I see, the other parties are not willing to accept this solution. So, I would like all parties to describe what would they consider an acceptable outcome, and to what extent are they willing to withdraw from their initial position --Kostas20142 (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC) I feel we've been ignored. As I have said plenty of times, CITH is not related to Raven's Home. Most of us are unlikely to support adding it in the info box, so that's a no. I am not widthdrawing my statements and position. Callmemirela 🍁 talk 14:29, 30 July 2017 (UTC) I concur – note to the moderator: Cory in the House is already mentioned in the lead of Raven's Home, so it's not like it is being ignored. But Cory in the House's "connection" to Raven's Home is too tenuous to justify including it in the infobox. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:15, 30 July 2017 (UTC) In trying to understand the uses of "preceded_by" and "related" in other TV articles in attempting to establish some precedent of their uses, I'm remembering two old series from way back when (though I definitely am old enough to remember a good part of the original runs of these series) that spun off multiple series: All in the Family and Happy Days. The Happy Days article is showing that it spun off from Love, American Style, which is showing under "related" series that actually spun off from Happy Days. Laverne & Shirley, which I believe was the most successful spin-off from Happy Days, shows under "related" in that article Mork & Mindy, another HD spinoff, though there is no actual connection between L&S and M&M as far as characters or storylines go. The same could be said about two All in the Family spinoffs: Maude and The Jeffersons - no connection (as far as I know) with the characters and storylines between those two, but related (and shown as "related" in those respective articles) because they both came from AITF. Now the "preceded_by" in Maude, The Jeffersons, and also Archie Bunker's Place all show AITF, as they were directly spun off from that show, but those three series appear in each other's article as "related". Looking at the Happy Days spinoffs, L&S, M&M and also Joanie Loves Chachi, the "preceded_by" on all three articles show both HD and Love, American Style, but the three spinoffs appear in each other's article as "related". How much all this applies to our current discussion, I'm not totally sure, nor am I questioning how the "related" parameter is used in all these articles about shows from 35 to 45 years ago, but from the precedent set in these articles, I'm inclined to believe Cory in the House should be listed as "related" to Raven's Home, and vice versa. MPFitz1968 (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC) @MPFitz1968: I would argue that the reverse is true – that the "Related" parameter is used (far!) too liberally in the articles for the various spinoffs of All in the Family, and that its use in those articles (especially) should be trimmed back – IOW, it should not be used as a 'catch-all' for every show within a so-called TV "universe". But that's a discussion for WT:TV, not here, and how that parameter is used elsewhere is basically a WP:OSE argument – the consensus at this article is pretty clearly against including Cory in the House in the infobox even with the "Related" parameter. I for one am pretty adamantly against including it, as it is a completely unrelated show in terms of story and characters... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:14, 30 July 2017 (UTC) @IJBall: I will not disagree about my above statement being based on WP:OSE; I had even thought about WP:SSEFAR ("Precedent in usage") over there, but even making a case based on that is quite shaky. Note when I said "I'm inclined to believe..." doesn't mean I will go against the consensus decided for Raven's Home, but it is another angle to consider. Even the instructions about the "Related" parameter at Template:Infobox television seem too vague, which is allowing what has been done for the All in the Family and Happy Days spinoffs, plus many other past TV shows which I haven't read thru yet. Certainly having a discussion at WT:TV (or thru an RfC) about the proper use of the parameter, and clear examples of proper use, will guide editors better in the future. MPFitz1968 (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC) The above is a great example of the template being used way too liberally indeed, but this is not the case with these three shows. They are very closely tied together, and yet again I say, Cory in the House and Raven's Home are related to each other through the character of Raven herself. Raven's Home has aired all of 2 episodes, the connection should be even more obvious in the future. Personally I feel like me being ok with putting the show in "Related to" was a compromise on my part, and now the other parties are resorting to downright lying to get their way. These shows are related. Also we, this is 97.127.112.18, we had a big storm and lost power, and now when our internet was reconnect I had a new IP for some reason. --70.59.85.238 (talk) 03:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC) Sorry again, this is still me. We have storms coming through the area and every time the power went out a new IP came with, 97.127.112.18, 70.59.85.238, and now this are all the same person. --70.59.77.10 (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC) I'll answer regarding this whole issue when I have settled back home from vacation. Perhaps wait until the storm is over to avoid millions of IPs? Callmemirela 🍁 talk 06:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC) discussion irrelevant to the case--Kostas20142 (talk) Volunteer note - Any editor who insists on editing from IP addresses rather than creating an account (which has multiple advantages) should be aware that dispute resolution does not work very well for unregistered editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:48, 1 August 2017 (UTC) I don't insist on editing without registering. I live in a building where everyone has to use the same 4 computers and I wasn't able to make an account because the stupid security on the computer prevented it. It's not by choice. --70.59.77.10 (talk) 00:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC) comment by moderator I still need the input requested in my previous statement --Kostas20142 (talk) 10:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC) My position is still the same as above. "The above is a great example of the template being used way too liberally indeed, but this is not the case with these three shows. They are very closely tied together, and yet again I say, Cory in the House and Raven's Home are related to each other through the character of Raven herself. Raven's Home has aired all of 2 episodes, the connection should be even more obvious in the future. Personally I feel like me being ok with putting the show in "Related to" was a compromise on my part, and now the other parties are resorting to downright lying to get their way. These shows are related." --97.127.123.210 (talk) 04:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC) announcement by moderator: Case will be closed in 24 hours due to lack of participation. If anyone other than the last party to comment still has an interest in the case, should add their statement before this period elapses. --Kostas20142 (talk) 09:11, 10 August 2017 (UTC) The above comparisons to Happy Days and All in the Family are not apt as their spinoffs were overwhelming of the backdoor variety. The key distinction here is that the main cast of CITH and Raven's Home are derived from the MAIN cast of That's So Raven. Further, they are immediate family. Surely the lives of her brother & father would have some impact on how Raven raises her own children (the central plot of Raven's Home), where Archie never gave Weezy another thought. A better comparison would be Trapper John, M.D. and AfterMASH (the former has the latter listed as related, but without reciprocity). Chronology is the right choice here, but related is a reasonable compromise. There seems to be a clear benefit to including this, in giving readers a greater understanding of this universe. I find it difficult to see where the harm is. GCG (talk) 02:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Phys.org#Edits today

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 83.54.140.34 on 08:05, 20 July 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Phys.org#Edits today (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jytdog (talk · contribs)
• 83.54.140.34 (talk · contribs) who has created the account Naesco (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This discussion involves edits of 3 articles: ScienceDaily, Phys.org and Eurekalert. Jytdog has placed several references to churnalism, and removed all other content, that he claimed to be SPS. Deleting all information and only leaving the churnalism statement makes these articles biased and non-neutral. He cites only blogs sites that discuss churnalism, making the whole articles opinion-based, rather than fact based. Not to mention that these are the blogs where science journalists from rivalry websites discuss influence of churnalism on science journalism (COI?)

He rejects any edits with links to WP:ABOUTSELF even if they make sense, or even with links to externals sites with whois data, traffic stats etc.

I have requested a 3O, that agreed that these articles should be written in more neutral style. Jytdog has rejected that as well. Somehow ScienceDaily has not been reverted (may be yet) - and I believe it is now written in a neutral way.

Jytdog has said and I quote here: "phys.org, sciencedaily,etc ...that useless and pernicious".Redacted by volunteer.I suggest that an independent editor reviews these articles.

Redacted by volunteer

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Third opinion was requested, but ignored by jytdog

How do you think we can help?

Re-write ScienceDaily and Phys.org in neutral non-biased style. Churnalism should be mentioned, but it shouldn't be the only information. Remove churnalism claim from Eureaklert section; it is false and it is not even supported by the references.

Summary of dispute by 83.54.140.34

• I've added myself to the Users involved. 83.54.140.34 (talk) 18:12, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Note to moderator: This dispute is between jytdog and myself. The above mentioned users haven't contributed anything valuable to the discussion. Alexbrn have only reverted the page (without contributing anything to its content) for a plain "I don't agree" reason. The Quixotic Potato did the same for a made-up reason (I explained that on the Talk page). I suspect that both have simply acted on behalf of Jytdog, so that he could not be blamed for Edit Warring. PaleoNeonate have only once commented on my Wikipediocracy reference that blamed Jytdog and Alexbrn working in tandem. Mark Marathon provided a requested 3O who backed up my point, but was ignored. This was my reasoning for not including any of these editors into the dispute. If you believe I should still include them, please let me know. 83.54.140.34 (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Summary: First of all, I apologize for the attack on the editors. These are my comments on the content. There are 3 almost identical edits (rev,rev,rev) of 3 articles referring to the same sources. If I'm obliged to tackle a lone article of phys.org in this dispute, so be it. However, in the context of the discussion, it is absolutely necessary to describe the other pages to address the "similarity" statement. My initial suggestion: make lead sentences according to WP:NPOV -- describe things the way independent reliable sources describe them, namely:

1. Eurekalert: nowhere in the secondary sources it is accused of churnalism or described as '... generating churnalism, similar to...'. Shipman describes it as press release distribution site and bulletin board for PRs, Angler as news service ... that organize news into categories. This is also supported by .
2. Science_Daily: Shipman doen't talk about churnalism on ScienceDaily. Angler describes it as press releases news service (page 44). There are sources that describe ScienceDaily as 'science news website' and sources that criticize it for masquerading as journalism.
3. Phys.org - Shipman describes it as large news aggregator (page 24) and science news website ... that practice churnalism .... where much of content is directly from press releases (page 42). 'Much of content' is not all of the content, which requires further clarification. This ref describes it as summarizing science findings from peer-reviewed articles, and staff written stories are reported by Livescience, Sciencemag, space.com, CNN, IEEE Spectrum (1,2),The Guardian etc (3, 4, 5, 6). Again, there are sources that describe it as 'science news website' and sources that criticize it for masquerading as journalism..

My IP has changes, from now on I'll comment under new user name. Naesco (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• Question to moderator: is the dispute in progress already, so we can discuss the quality of each individual ref? I didn't do it in the summary of the dispute as I needed to keep it short. Otherwise, I can add it to the summary now. I just want to avoid cherry picking when some blogs are WP:RS and some are not. And shall I open separate disputes for other 2 articles or can we discuss it within this one, because the refs are the same?  Naesco (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Summary on refs: Ref [10] is written by Dr. Esther Ngumbi  who is an established science journalist with the proven track record  -- she wrote for  Los Angeles Times, Scientific American, NPR, SciDev etc. Not to mention that it is the most up-to-date ref (2017). So please no card stacking. I may agree that [8] might have a COI because they are a PR service. The same is valid for [5] and [9] -- according to WP:RS both refs have COI on 2 points out of 3 -- authors are paid by competitor websites, articles are published on the same websites (imagine a blog on Apple.com would criticize Microsoft). Ref [3] is clearly a WP:RS/SPS.

All in all, however, I am not suggesting to exclude any of these references, but instead strictly adhere to WP:NPOV guideline: ensure all majority and significant minority views ... are covered.

I want to make one thing clear: I do not want to revert back to my earlier edit, I agree that it was not properly sourced and SPS (WP:BITE). This is my suggestion for the lead sentence (in full accordance to WP:NPOV - describe things the way WP:RS describe them). It is practically a word by word quote from our most reliable and independent source [1]:

Phys.org is a British science, research and technology news website, that practices churnalism, where much of content is directly from press releases . It also publishes summaries on peer-reviewed articles on several science disciplines .

Can we agree on that? Naesco (talk)

• Question to the moderator: What are the exact criteria from WP:RS that ref. [7] does not meet? It is not clear from your comment, so I would like to clarify. Thanks. Naesco (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Summary #3: I want to address several key points of this discussion, that we can't agree on.

1. Content: press releases or something else? Obvious choice and commons sense suggests using WP:ABOUTSELF. If I simply browse through the latest headlines (yes, I'm aware of WP:NOR, I'll address it shortly), there are indeed plenty of articles adopted from press releases. But at the same time, there are stories credited to Associated Press, AFP. On top of that, there are reports, that are indeed short summaries of articles from peer-review journals. Since WP:OR is not accepted, these are references from WP:RS: Treehugger, Usatoday, The Register. They report on a stories from "AFP/AP via Phys.org". It's not difficult to find plenty of such links online. As for the staff-written reports, I've already shown in my first summary refs from CNN, livescience, sciencemag etc that quote reports from Phys.org. In addition, this one is from BBC (!) quoting a "report from science news website Phys.org". Those reports are original staff-written summaries, these are not press releases [so many respected news outlets cannot not be mistaken]. My point here is that both statements: Phys.org publishes only press releases" and "Phys.org publishes only staff written content" are incorrect. Based on all the refs here, can we agree that this statement about the content is true "Phys.org publishes press releases, news articles from various media agencies, and self-written summaries on science articles"?

2. News website or PR services? BBC and others clearly describe it as a "news website". Shipman describes it as a "science news website". I don't see any WP:RS that state the opposite. This again rises a question about WP:NPOV. It does not matter what one thinks about this subject, what WP:RS say matters. I personally think that a 'news aggregator' [1] is the most appropriate description. I understand the churnalism criticism -- it's totally relevant -- but it mostly relates to the nature of the origin of the content. However, the content itself is news. The same way The Onion is described as a "news satire organization" and The_Sun_(United_Kingdom) as "a tabloid newspaper". News journalism has many genres (blogging, analytics, opinion, citizen, etc.), and churnalism is one of the forms of journalism. So we should not mix two different concepts. Can we agree on the point that, based on all WP:RS, Phys.org's content is news and its genre is, in big part, churnalism?

3. If we are to summarize all WP:RS from above we should describe it as something like this:

Phys.org is a British science, research and technology news aggregator, that publishes press releases from research organizations, stories from news agencies, such as AP, AFP, and summaries on peer-reviewed science articles. Phys.org practices churnalism as much of its content is directly from press releases.

Alternatively, we may quote the WP:RS as is, as I proposed earlier. Anything else will not be WP:NPOV. Naesco (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric:: I understand your point. Thank you for proposing a new lead, I do believe it now starts to sound more NPOV, and we're moving forward in this dispute. To fully reflect on all RS collected, I suggest slightly modifying the 2nd part of the proposed description -- I'm not sure whether any RS quotes  '... sometimes slightly edited' or describes the degree of editing:

Phys.org is a majorly churnalistic British science, research and technology news aggregator website. It mostly republishes press releases and stories from news agencies, such as Associated Press, Agence France-Presse, etc. It also publishes summaries on peer-reviewed science articles.

Naesco (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

1. 'Science journalists writing about science journalism' - am I the only one who sees the potential COI here (the same as it was for [8])? Anyway, regarding ref [7] : it clearly says : Phys.Org is primarily a news site, but they’ve dedicated plenty of articles to debunking popular rumors.... And jytdog just proved that point: there are articles about debunking - some are from press releases, some are not. Actually his second link is republished from The Conversion - it is not a press release. These are 'debunking' stories from AP, AFP, Universe Today, Physorg own reports, etc, etc, etc. Again, that just proves my point -- there are press releases, stories from news agencies and staff written content. The ref [7] describes the site exactly as it is  -- ' primarily a news site'. And I don't think that any ref that says something positive is by definition 'promotional'. (And every ref that criticizes should be taken as a golden example. All authors describe their own opinion. Some references are clearly incorrect about describing the site. For example, they say that Phys.org only distributes press releases. But there are enough references that prove there are other content sources. So we should not blindly rely on them). Moreover, debunking or not - it has nothing to do with the proposed lead. It only distracts us from a constructive building of a good Wikipedia article about the site. Should we focus on writing a good lead?
2. Word 'British' is based on WP:ABOUTSELF: the company is registered in the Isle of Man. Last statement is from ref [10]. I don't think that talking to the authors behind the scenes and interpreting answers should be taken as an argument, it's more a psychological warfare. If it 'has zero value here' why bother and present it here? And cross examination would be beyond the scope of this dispute.

PS. OK, we all clearly understand that jytdog doesn't like the website, but it has nothing to do with the discussion. A lot of emotions about the website design are counterproductive. A person with this attitude shouldn't write a WP article in the first place. Again, let's focus on writing an NPOV article here. Naesco (talk) 13:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

In general, I think the latest Jytdog's proposal is pretty good. However, I suggest to cite as closely as possible to the sources, as proposed by the moderator. For example, words 'occasionally publishes' are not from ref [7]. On the opposite, the website seems to publish several per day. I would like to propose the following summary. It is very close to what Jytdog has proposed today, but applies almost direct wording from the references:

Phys.org is a British [ref] science, research and technology news agregator [1 page 24], [7], where much of content is directly from press releases and news agencies, a practice known as churnalism [1 page 42], [3],[4],[5]. It also publishes summaries on peer-reviewed articles on several science disciplines [10], [ref],[ref]. In April 2011 Phys.org started the site Medical Xpress for its content about medicine and health [ref].

I don't fully agree with the 2nd part about similarity with ScienceDaily and Eurekalert, but I'm not addressing it here. I've already pointed that out in my first summary. This needs to be discussed separately once we're done with the 1st paragraph. Otherwise, the discussion may get side-tracked. Naesco (talk) 10:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: Have you seen my version (it looks like our posts have crossed)? Please review it. I don't think your latest version is in agreement with your earlier statement to cite 'as closely as possible' to the sources, especially the 2nd sentence. It also looks like there is some opposition from Jytdog to use words 'science news website', so I propose 'news agregator' as stated by Shipman in his book [1], page 24. "Much of content is directly..." and "summaries on peer-reviewed articles..." are also direct quotes from the sources. In general we are all on the same page about the 1st sentence, but I prefer the Jytdog's wording. Naesco (talk) 13:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest to go sentence by sentence:

1. It looks we all agree on the 1st one. Shall we consider it as settled?
2. Although I agree in essence with the second sentence, I can't agree with the wording. This statement is fundamentally correct, but the wording "practices limited science journalism" does not explain anything to WP readers. This is generalization / interpretation of the fact that the site publishes "summaries on selected science papers". Ref. [10] description is factually correct, supported by what we've seen with all the examples by BBC, CNN, Science magazine, IEEE, etc (see above). Why are we excluding source 10? It is WP:RS and describes the things as they really are. This is one more ref that supports this statement: "...strive to publish peer reviewed science...". Moreover, words "occasionally/limited" are not supported by any source, and are vague and subjective (What's the exact percentage for something to be described as "limited"? How should "occasionally" be interpreted - once a year, once a month, once a day?) The word 'daily' would be more appropriate if we use ref WP:ABOUTSELF. So for the second sentence I propose something like: It also (daily ref?) publishes summaries (reports?) on selected science (peer-reviewed?) articles [7], [10], [ref] (, which is known as science journalism?). Naesco (talk) 08:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
3. update: Eurekalert is a paid press release distribution site (no editorial control, etc) similar to AlphaGalileo. It is like PRWeb or Business Wire for research organisations. It is not a news website, and it is clearly described by the sources as a PR distribution service, so comparison with it is incorrect. Comparison with ScienceDaly is in general correct, but only in terms of churnalism for republishing PRs. It is well supported by the references. But it doesn't look like that it runs its own science journalism. I'm not sure how we should handle this for the 2nd paragraph, but I believe it is not correct to simply say that both sites are similar. Maybe something like this: "ScienceDaily is similarly criticized for churnalism ..." Naesco (talk) 09:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree with 'post-doc wanna-be-science blogger'. Ref [10] is written by Dr. Esther Ngumbi  who is an established science journalist with the proven track record  -- she wrote for Los Angeles Times, Scientific American, NPR, SciDev etc. I've already commented on that. Ref [7], [10] supports my second statement. The link is the most recent (2017) and factually confirms all the report examples from CNN, BBC, IEEE, Science mag, many others. @Winged Blades of Godric: I agree with your last proposed modification. Naesco (talk) 12:13, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I found two more secondary sources to support the ref [10]: this one (page 27) describes Phys.org  as publishing  '.. accessible articles on recent developments..' and the second book (page 250) as '... science news and information site...' . Again, I think ref 10 describes the site journalistic part in the most accurate way, and it is also supported by other sources. I'm Ok with the proposed lead sentence, but it needs to be complemented by the other part that describes the science journalism as suggested by other sources. Otherwise it's not balanced and fully factual. Naesco (talk) 12:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Request @Winged Blades of Godric:: I will be travelling for the next few days, and will not be able to respond at least till Monday. I kindly request to put the dispute on hold until then. Naesco (talk) 18:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric:: I'm waiting for your comment on ref [10] supported by two new sources from text books( one (page 27), two (page 250)) Naesco (talk) 09:56, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jytdog phys.org

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The content is dispute is simple. The IP prefers the old version of the page (diff for Science Daily, diff at Phys.org), each of which was promotional and dominated by content sourced from these websites themselves and had unsourced content, and misrepresented what they actually do. Both lightly edit press releases and republish them and do not state clearly that what they publish are press releases. Our articles now state this clearly. As I have said before, if the IP wants to propose an independently sourced alternative I am more than open to hearing that. Such a proposal has not been forthcoming, since their first comment on this matter here: User_talk:Jytdog#Churnalism (I trust that the DR volunteers will remove comments that are not about the content itself in the OP) Jytdog (talk) 10:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

As I already pointed out at the article talk page, ref #8 is on the website of a company that sells PR services to biotech companies. Of course it thinks phys.org is great. Not independent by miles and miles. With regard to ref #10, Esther Ngumbi 's blog posting in Scientific American, this person is not a science journalist, but rather is a post-doc at Auburn, and the piece is naive with regard to phys.org as well as other aspects of science communication. The sources I originally brought are by well established scientist journalists. Jytdog (talk) 18:30, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I am not OK with the second sentence of the proposed content. The source is weak. Fwiw I reached out to the author and asked her to read the refs in our article, and she said she regretted what she wrote but cannot change it. I realize that has zero value here. But I do not change my opposition to using a low quality ref to support a promotional claim.

With regard to the 1st sentence, I struggle, mightlily, with referrring to phys.org as a "news site". It is not legitimate science journalism -- it is just part of the science PR machine and is not transparent about what it is doing.

Folks have said that they feel that "churnalism" is jargony. I would accept something like "phys.org is a website that republishes press releases, sometimes lightly edited". Something like that. Jytdog (talk) 03:50, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Winged Blades of Godric my apologies for not replying.

About ref #7, if "best by miles" means "most amenable to being used promotionally" then one can only agree.

That is an interesting source. The ones that I have brought are by science journalists writing about science journalism. This is from someone who characterizes himself like this: "Alan Henry is a technology enthusiast. He’s a full-time geek, a technology and lifestyle writer in one life here and now, and a technical project manager in another, a long time ago. He writes, he herds cats, he games, he writes some more. He tweets, he plurks, he spends a little time liking things on Facebook, but that’s about it. He’s severely opinionated, which explains why he writes so much. He’s also a coffee snob, a little bit of a gourmet but not too good to not visit a food truck. He likes workspace mods, desk accessories, anime, music, gadgets and gear, and bunnies.", writing on "lifehacker" in a sassy, trying-to-draw eyeballs kind of way. So that is the context.

Rather than writing from perspective of people who write about science, Henry writes from the perspective of the consumer of information, faced with a bewildering internet. In that context, I guess a press-release laden website is better than NaturalNews or Mercola. But really. This is not about science journalism, it is just another blog trying to catch eyeballs. (and yes he is good at that, which is surely why the NYT hired him for their digital strategy)

It is really hard to find good refs that actually talk about phys.org in the context of actual science journalism and reporting. I probably spent about 4 hours to find the ones I did. Jytdog (talk) 07:48, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry but "majorly" is not good English. What is the source for them being a) British, and b) publishing summaries of articles?

Following the Lifehacker ref, I went to their site to look for "debunking" which is one thing that source says they do. (I just searched their site for "debunking".) In this first page I found two.

• Video: Should you pee on a jellyfish sting?. So what is that? A video from Youtube, with text apparently from the American Chemical Society. (one of things that is most irritating about phys.org, is that they put a link at the name where they credit the content they steal republish from, but if you click on that, you don't actually leave their website. You end up at a brief description of the organization (lifted from Wikipedia, with a link to their Wikipedia article) and a list of other content from that organization that they republished. There you get a link to the organization, but not to the actual source they were republishing. They trap you. Great webdesign for making money - really terrible for helping anyone follow the story.) You have to kick out and google it, and if you do on that one, you find the original from ACS. There is no added value, content-wise, to what phys.org did there - and they didn't actually produce that.
• Why urban legends are more powerful than ever, not really debunking, but OK maybe. Anyway, that is republished from the original. Jytdog (talk) 08:18, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have said nothing about site design. Don't know where that is coming from. I find the "COI" thing kind of bizarre - the IP/Neesco has been upset that phys.org is not given some kind of credit for being legitimate science news. Science journalists are the people who generate science news. Science journalists look at phys.org and say "that is not what we do". And now that is a COI? Good lord.

Anyway, this is not a matter of "liking" anything. Phys.org is what it is is - is republishes stuff it gets from elsewhere, without making that clear. It is just science PR, not science news. This is what the best sources say about it. However we say this, is fine with me. I am not married to "churnalism". Jytdog (talk) 06:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

• User:Winged Blades of Godric - OK how about

Phys.org is a website that republishes press releases and syndicated news pieces about scientific research and technology, a practice known as churnalism. It occasionally publishes its own science journalism. In April 2011 Phys.org started the site Medical Xpress for its content about medicine and health.

ScienceDaily is similar to it; EurekAlert! is somewhat different in that it only aggregates press releases and clearly labels them as such.

References

• I reject "british". I have no idea why neesco is leaning on that so hard, but none of the independent refs mention that and there is nothing particularly british about the site. They use american spelling, there is no ".uk" in the URLs, and the "contact" offers no physical office at all (similar to other dubious organizations). So no "british".

I have compromised as far as i am willing and spent about as much time as i am willing.

btw I have come to accept the distinction with EurekaDaily, which is honest that it republishes press releases - it is a press release aggregator. The thing that makes phys.org so toxic is that it that it hides that the fact these pieces are press releases. Even ScienceDaily has more integrity in that it generally says "press release" right at the top, when it passes them on.

So i am actually going to push back from what i offered above and add Phys.org is a website that republishes press releases ,not labelled as such,and syndicated news pieces about scientific research and technology, a practice known as churnalism."

And no we are not linking to phys.org's "feature" search section - this is spamming. And the BBC ref is just a passing mention to a "report" on phys.org.

Again I have compromised with this PR effort as much as I am willing. Jytdog (talk) 08:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The "not labelled as such" is central to the definition of "churnalism" which i have compromised on, by moving to the end. One of the good sources, Ars, says "The coverage at Science Daily and PhysOrg is eerily similar, with many instances of identical phrasing, starting with the title itself. That's because both are using mildly edited versions of a press release made by the publisher, Cell Press, which was available via Eurekalert, an aggregator of science press releases. If others are presenting science press releases as news, why shouldn't the universities cut out the middleman?". (ref) And the ScientiicAmerican piece says "We also have press-release farms such as PhysOrg and ScienceDaily that seem to me to do little else but repackage press releases one can find on science press releases sites such as EurekAlert.." (ref) "not labelling them as such" = "presented as news" and "repackaging" from the sources. This is not "jamming down the throat of the reader", it is simply more clearly defining "churnalism". Jytdog (talk) 08:47, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• with apologies i am not catching the "work around" with regard to ref 10 (which is the post-doc wanna-be-science blogger passing mention, that we already dismissed right?) as for mediabiasfactchecker - nothing at RSN. Looks like they just took the marketing blurb from phys.org and stick a "pro-science" label on the site. no value there; just a directory. Jytdog (talk) 09:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• with regard to ref 10, it is what it is. hopefully the person you talk with will see it for the naive wanna-be error that this passing mention to phys.org was. Jytdog (talk) 10:09, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexbrn

IP seems to want to downplay the well-sourced churnalistic nature of these sites and big up on self-sourced and/or unreliably-sourced content. Our articles should be based on decent secondary sources, so I disagree with those ambitions. I too wonder if there is a COI aspect to this. Alexbrn (talk) 04:25, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Phys.org#Edits today discussion

General comments

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Note to volunteer: there are many more than two editors involved in this, at least: me, The Quixotic Potato, PaleoNeonate and Mark Marathon. Alexbrn (talk) 09:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment It is generally a good idea to comment on content, not the contributor. Maybe even more so for IPs who end up at WP:DRN because other people disagree with them. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Thanks for the invitation to comment. I agree that my role in this dispute was only to remind the IP address editor 83.54.140.34 of WP:TINC. I have rarely read Wikipediocracy threads but I remember that the few I read did not portray a rational view of the particular scenarios involved and appeared to be rants by people who have issues with Wikipedia. I don't think it can be used to justify aspersions. It may even be best for Wikipedians to not care about it, it's preferable to discuss Wikipedia matters using on-Wiki public talk pages, noticeboards and other Wikipedia processes like this one for scrutiny. I had no initial intention to debate the content here, but I could perhaps participate by commenting on the various sources presented, if I'm invited to do it. My experience with source evaluation in this field is however limited. —PaleoNeonate - 20:55, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

• I more or less agree with Jytdog et al. I am too lazy to explain how Wikipedia should work to Yet Another IP With A COI (YAIWACOI). I would like to point out that I am not a fan of publishing statistics about the amount of visitors of websites on Wikipedia articles because they are often incorrect and misleading. Anyone who uses Google Analytics knows that a statement like "Website X received Y visitors in year Z" isn't useful information; you'll need a lot of other numbers to provide context (e.g. how long did they stay?). Interpreting those numbers isn't as easy as it may seem. The constant stream of ad hominems gets boring fast. Jytdog has tried to explain the situation in detail on the talkpage. On the internet republishing content made by others is a profitable business model (go ask Ray William Johnson if you do not believe me). Has the IP declared a COI? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 20:26, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Volunteer/moderator comments

• Volunteer note - The filing party has not listed the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:37, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - This noticeboard isn't for a dispute between an editor and one other editor only; it is for disputes about the content of an article. If the filing party isn't interested in article content, only in the conduct of User:Jytdog, they are in the wrong place. Also, it isn't constructive to cast aspersions on the motives of other editors and say that they are acting on behalf of another editor or that they have made-up reasons. Is this really one unregistered editor against the world? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:13, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note -
  • Aspersions/attacks on editors have been redacted.Winged Blades ^Godric 17:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
  • @IP editor:-- Can you please summarise the points of content dispute sans any reference to any editor?(In the form of:-- 1)Whether source XXX constitutes a rel. source. 2)Whether the word YYY(supported by a, b, c) can be mentioned in lead....)Winged Blades ^Godric 17:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I've updated the summary (under new username). Naesco (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• • We are tackling a lone article here.Winged Blades ^Godric 17:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
  • @Alexbrn and Mark Marathon: Pinging you for your views on the issue(if any).Winged Blades ^Godric 17:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
  • @The Quixotic Potato and PaleoNeonate: Pinging you for your views on the issue(if any).Winged Blades ^Godric 17:34, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note--Thanks to everybody for your valuable comments!Will be shortly commenting!Winged Blades ^Godric 09:50, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note--I don't think LifeHacker,Howtogeek.com, blogs etc. to be constituting WP:RS and don't attach much value with other rel. sources referring to Phys.org as an evidence of it's non-churnalistic nature.Pinging Jytdog for his takes on Ref-8 and Ref-10.But the quality of the sources describing the site as churnalistic are superb!Am not commenting on websites rel. to other articles.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note--@Naesco:--Yeah,you may post concise summary about the three sources I specifically opposed to, the two sources whose credibility were effectively questioned by Jytdog and about my second concern.No, first let's confine ourselves to this article only.Cheers!Winged Blades ^Godric 17:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

responded with the second summary Naesco (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note--@Jytdog:--Thanks for your opinion!Winged Blades ^Godric 08:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note--@Naesco:--Thanks!
• Volunteer note--
  • WP:RS states:--Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications..So, I don't wholly concur on the treatment of [3].
  • References [6] and [7] are discounted as they fail the stringency required to be a WP:RS in this regard.
  • Reference [8] is discounted for having COI links.
  • Jytdog is asked to counter(if he chooses to) the point raised by Naesco in defence of [10] and Naesco's description of [3].
  • Reference [9] is a WP:RS by miles--written by credible journalists.
  • Jytdog is asked to look at whether the compromisatory solution seems viable.Winged Blades ^Godric 09:43, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
• @Naesco:--Basically the source is some type of collective blog and I have strong doubts about credibility of the journalist.I will be double-vetting the reliability soon!Winged Blades ^Godric 16:03, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

FYI: The site itself is a part of Gizmodo Media Group, owned by Univision Communications, a global media company. Alan Henry is a professional writer and editor. Last years he served as an editor-in-chief of Lifehacker. He is now a senior digital strategist at The New York Times. He wrote for Ziff Davis (Extreme Tech, Geek.com, PC Mag) and Purch ( Tom’s Guide) websites. He is by miles the most reputable expert of any others represented here. Thanks. Naesco (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• @Naesco:--Geesh! I replied that w.r.t to [6].Err....Winged Blades ^Godric 17:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

BTW, ref [6] is not really applicable per rules set in this dispute, as it only discusses ScienceDaily and not Phys.org. I'm not sure how this dispute is supposed to proceed: am I allowed to comment on the latest Jytdog's arguments or should I wait for the moderator?  Naesco (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

No need!Winged Blades ^Godric 14:39, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment---Heartfelt regrets for the long delay.Got stuck IRL.Will be commenting soon!Winged Blades ^Godric 13:07, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment --- @Jytdog and Naesco:--How about something like:--

Phys.org is a majorly churnalistic science, research and technology website, that mostly republishes press releases, sometimes lightly edited.

Sources to be used acc.(after each phrase or so).Winged Blades ^Godric 14:39, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment --- @Jytdog:--Your opinion/rebuttal (if any) is sought on Naesco's assertions about Ref-7(spec. to the point-- that it's the best source by miles).Winged Blades ^Godric 14:39, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---Well, how's about

Phys.org is a majorly churnalistic British science, research and technology news aggregator website, that mostly republishes press releases. sometimes lightly edited It also publishes summaries on peer-reviewed science articles.

Sources to be used acc.

• Volunteer comment ---@Naesco:--Leads are hardly so complex in structure and syntax.NPOV does not warrant inclusion of minor and major viewpoints with equal weight--in the lead.
  • To reply you comment-wise:--
    • 1)I agree to an extent.But in my opinion there can exist a much better way to include the point (that they publish summaries et al) with due credence to weight.
    • 2)On some research, yeah churnalism is a form of journalism.Maybe utterly despicable but it is!
    • 3)Disagree.See afore-proposed lead.Winged Blades ^Godric 16:37, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:-Any comments?Winged Blades ^Godric 16:37, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---Lead slightly edited.I personally have objections to mentioning press-agency names etc. in lead.(Keep it short!)Winged Blades ^Godric 07:12, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Now redundant
Volunteer comment ---Barring Jytdog commenting on the advances within next 48 hours, I will be closing this as failed due to lack of intervention by a party.Winged Blades Godric 07:12, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

*Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:--Thanks!Winged Blades ^Godric 08:35, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Volunteer/moderator comments (continued..)

• Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:--My views tend to share a similarity with the opinion exppresed by Neasco throughout (except the presumed COI in case of science journalists) and esp. in the second point of his last post.I am asking Neasco to propose a new lead borrowing words as closely as posible from the sources, strictly adhering to WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV.--in lines of my last-proposed lead.Ref-a0 shall be omitted and Ref-7 may be used(I scanned the RSN about life-hacker and there seems to be a consensus that they are gen. reliable).I don't find major problems with the word British.Winged Blades ^Godric 06:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: short question - what do you mean by Ref-a0? is it ref 8? Thank you. Naesco (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

@Naesco:--Ref 10.Sorry for the delay!Winged Blades ^Godric 10:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:--Thanks!Let's wait for Naesco to propose his/her preferred one.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Another moderator-proposed lead

Preferred lead--My preferred version (bordered on Jyt's version) goes as:-- Phys.org is a website that mostly practises churnalism, republishing press releases and syndicated news pieces about scientific research and technology.[1][2][3][4][5]It also practises occasional/limitedWhich is preferable? science journalism.[6]In April 2011 Phys.org started the site Medical Xpress for its content about medicine and health.[7] ScienceDaily is similar to it[2][3] and EurekAlert! is somewhat different in that it self-describes as a churnalistic site.[1][4] For corresponding references see the accompanying references in Jytdog's proposed lead.Winged Blades Godric 10:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:--Without going into the 2nd paragraph, Naesco's proposed lead (esp. the 1st part) looks good.But I have doubts as to the sourcing of the second line.(I prefer the self-reference and the BBC piece be removed and the Lifehacker piece added.)Also, the second line shall preferably adheres to Jyt's version.(Despite me asking Naesco to adhere to the sources as closely as possible!)You may build on the version adding more references and fine-tuning the language.Any comments?Winged Blades ^Godric 03:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---@Naesco:--V.good proposal!Ref 10 shall be excluded!Winged Blades ^Godric 03:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Next Lead:--I would prefer something like:--

Phys.org is a science, research and technology news aggregator where much of content is republished directly from press releases and news agencies-in a practice known as churnalism.It also practices limited science journalism.^{Life-hacker piece and another source} In April 2011 Phys.org started the site Medical Xpress for its content about medicine and health. ScienceDaily is similar to it and EurekAlert! is somewhat different in that it self-describes as a churnalistic site.

All other lines could be comfortably and un-controversially sourced!So, no mention of sources.Winged Blades ^Godric 03:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The another source shall be a WP:RS which mention(s) phys.org non-trivially!Winged Blades ^Godric 03:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment ---Jytdog's arguments about removal of British are accepted.We are quite good to remove any mention of the nationality from the lead when the website-owner-organization are themselves not quite openly stating it and we have to resort to some synthesis.Further, the latest suggestion is particularly non-needful.We ain't waging a battle against Phys.org despite their dubious journalism and don't need to push something down the reader's throat.Winged Blades ^Godric 08:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---I would also strongly suggest Naesco to bring another source(which was afore-seeked) within 36 hours, pending which we can make some slight changes(about the 2nd line) and ask the parties about their acceptance of the lead and proceed to close this accordingly.And Naesco the next post shall be only about such sources that you may have discovered and a concise one/two-paragraph statement about your proposed line(w.r.t to Science Daily and EurekaAlert) and reasons for opposing the current version .Winged Blades ^Godric 08:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---To make my points clear to both the sides:--
  • 0)We are all good about the 1st sentence.

• • 1)Regarding the BBC piece and the self-reference, I've already given my views that they are un-acceptable.Self-referencing in controversial cases are dis-allowed.BBC piece covers the site too non-trivially to be used to buckle the lead.

• • 2) That leaves us with the LifeHacker source which is reliable.But, I am not comfortable with inserting a certain information in the lead on basis of only one RS that counters diametrically opposite info backed up by several other sources.Thus the need for at least another RS covering Phys.org non-trivially.

• • 3)Ref-10 is interesting.I will be adding my points soon.I'm thinking of asking out some editor who regularly frequents these areas and have a know-how about the credibility of these sources?Winged Blades ^Godric 09:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• • 4)I am quite uncomfortable with Jytdog's recently proposed phrase-addition for reasons described in my last comment.Winged Blades ^Godric 09:01, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment ---@Jytdog:--Any comments about my proposed work-around about Ref-10(It will be similar to as it happened in the revolving door case.)?And any comments about whether this passes WP:RS.I am skeptical.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment---@Jytdog:-Sorry for not making myself clear.I am at cross-roads about Ref-10.Thus, my way-out was that (just like I asked Kudpung in the prev. IACA dispute as a 3O) I will ask someone who has long wiki-experience in these areas to comment on suitability of 10 as a reference.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment---Echo Jytdog about mediabiasfactcheck.com.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment---As an alternative, I'm amenable to--It shares many similarities with ScienceDaily and EurekAlert! in the sense that all of them practice heavy churnalism.<footnote>(EurekaAlert! though self-describes itself as a churnalistic site.)</footnote> Also, it may be duly noted that we are not linking the trio up, the science-journalists are!Winged Blades ^Godric 10:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment---Naesco, do you agree with my last proposed modification.(The footnote portion will appear at the end of the article.)Anyway, I will be soon asking about Ref-10.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Historical authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon#Olive_Horticulture

– New discussion.

Filed by Lcall52 on 17:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon#Olive Horticulture (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Lcall52 (talk · contribs)
• TaivoLinguist (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I would like to add about two sentences, including pro/con points of view with references. Another editor heatedly opposes it for an ongoing series of reasons, which I try to answer and where I cannot see how the reasons reflect wikipedia policy. He has stated he doesn't think the page should exist. Given that the content is related to historical information about a religion, perhaps the motivations are strong.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Only long discussion on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Provide outside perspective and a calm, practical influence toward resolution. :)

Summary of dispute by TaivoLinguist

Religious issues are tricky. The article in question here consists of a series of broad-based sections that outline the main issues of the Book of Mormon's (BOM) supposed historicity. There are sections on archeology, geography, linguistics, and genetics. Each covers a topic that is relevant to the entire BOM content and the underlying story presented as fact within it. Two sections deal with major outside comments about the text as a whole and its historicity. Finally, the last section names two major Mormon research organizations that are responsible for conducting and publishing the church's historical and scientific research aimed at proving the BOM narrative. The other party wants to add a trivial matter that concerns a minor issue found in only one chapter of the BOM and not a fundamental issue. Once a single trivial issue is allowed to be placed on the page, it opens the door for hundreds of other trivial issues to be placed there by other editors who will then justify the pollution by, "But we talk about olives". While the other editor is sincere in his belief that olives are the most interesting thing in the world and that the chapter of the BOM where they are mentioned is the most important chapter in the whole book, I beg to differ. It is important to keep the big picture in view and not delve into trivialities on pages that are dedicated to the big picture. --Taivo (talk) 18:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Historical authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon#Olive_Horticulture discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Question: Do you think that asking for a third opinion first would be more helpful? --Kostas20142 (talk) 12:24, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
• Answer: Thanks for the suggestion. I thought about it earlier, and I am certainly willing to if you wish, but it seems less likely to help, since the page you linked says it works best if we are dealing in good faith, but less if the issue can't be solved on that talk page. Can we try it in parallel to work on this DR page? There has been much opportunity for others to comment and they haven't chosen to do so. I am not confident that we are all dealing in good faith, as the other person (in the page's talk page) has repeatedly and strongly stated he doesn't think the page should exist, and now he pursues many (mostly empty, it seems to me) arguments to prevent adding anything to it (when there are known, easy solutions to that: if it becomes too long: one creates a sub-page or simply keeps things organized). It very much seems, as I wrote in that talk page, that he is pursuing an editorial agenda (wants the page to be updated only if or as it agrees with his personal views), and feels ownership of the page. --Lcall52 (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Counter-Answer. I will ignore the personal attacks by the other party. This is a matter of WP:WEIGHT, a policy which the other party seems to consider of no importance in his arguments. --Taivo (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Bay Area_Rapid_Transit#Historical_events.3F_.28ATC_failed.2C_train_crashed.2C_financial_mismanagement.2C_GM_fired.2C_entire_board_replaced....29

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Mole2 on 02:06, 13 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Bay Area Rapid Transit#Historical events.3F .28ATC failed.2C train crashed.2C financial mismanagement.2C GM fired.2C entire board replaced....29 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mole2 (talk · contribs)
• 166.107.163.254 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hello. I and another editor are having a disagreement about this section of the Bay Area Rapid Transit article. Since March, this section has been proposed for a move into the "History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit" article, a separate Wikipedia article which was developed to provide a more in-depth look at the planning, design, and construction of the BART system.

I did not suggest that proposed move, but I do support it, because I feel that this section is overly detailed and off topic of the main content of the article, which is about the existing, built, and operational BART system. I absolutely agree that the article should have a history section covering the basic history of BART. But because there is an entirely separate Wikipedia article on the history of BART, this seems out of place; I feel that the history section in this article should be relatively brief and concise as a result. I would take as a parallel example the history section in the Wikipedia article on the New York City subway system, which is quite brief, because there is a separate, far more in-depth Wikipedia article exclusively on the history of hte subway.

My preferred solution would be to retain a few sentences summarizing this content in the article's brief history section, and then move the entirety of the in-depth content to the Wikipedia article "History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit." (Note: I just checked and this entire section, word-for-word, has already been moved to the latter article. That only strengthens the case for removing most of it from the former.)

The other editor feels that moving this material to the BART history article is an attempt to erase BART's early history and managerial failures. As a result, we're at a deadlock as to whether the proposed move can take place.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've had an extensive discussion on the talk page. I have suggested retaining a couple of sentences summarizing the content, but the other editor is not satisfied with that solution.

How do you think we can help?

I am hoping that an editor can provide some third-party input into the dispute, or at least can encourage other neutral parties to engage in a constructive conversation about whether this section should be moved or whether it should remain.

Summary of dispute by 166.107.163.254

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Bay Area_Rapid_Transit#Historical_events.3F_.28ATC_failed.2C_train_crashed.2C_financial_mismanagement.2C_GM_fired.2C_entire_board_replaced....29 discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

I am willing to try to moderate this dispute, if it is a dispute about article content for which compromise is possible. The purpose of this noticeboard is to try to facilitate compromise on article content. I will ask each editor to state briefly, in one paragraph, what they think the issues are, so that we can determine whether there is an article content issue. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think is the issue or issues? Please read the rules. Be sure to respond to every request within 48 hours. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors

I don't have a problem with this particular section of content per se. My problem is whether this section of the content belongs here, in the article "Bay Area Rapid Transit," or whether it belongs in a sister article, "History of Bay Area Rapid Transit." The other editor is largely responsible for writing this material. It is excellent, well written, and well sourced. However, sometime in the past two years, the BART article became so long and detailed that the Wikipedia community chose to move several portions into sister articles, including the history of the system. Because there's now a separate Wikipedia article on the history of BART, I believe that this long section belongs there, and is now out of place in this article. I have proposed a compromise: I think that the BART article should have an overview of the system's history, a couple of paragraphs long, that would include a synopsis or summary of this content, and a link to the separate "History of Bay Area Rapid Transit" Wikipedia article for those who want to read more. I would take as my example the parallel case of the New York City Subway. There is a main Wikipedia article about the subway system with a brief synopsis of its history. Then there is a separate, very long article that gives the history of the NYC subway in exhausting detail. That's what I propose for this article and I believe it to be a fair, reasonable compromise. The other editor is attached to this material and feels that it should remain here in its entirety.Mole2 (talk) 08:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Taichung#No mention_of_population_in_lead

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Multivariable on 08:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Taichung#No mention of population in lead (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Multivariable (talk · contribs)
• Szqecs (talk · contribs)
• Phlar (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Recently released government statistics in Taiwan showed that the city of Taichung's population (2,778,182 people) has surpassed that of Kaohsiung's (2,777,873 people). This change would now rank them as the 2nd and 3rd most populous cities in Taiwan, respectively, and has been covered extensively in Chinese and English language media.

A user updated the article lead to reflect that Taichung's population rank was now 2nd (instead of 3rd). However, User Szqecs was concerned that mentioning this information in the article would be supporting a fringe theory and has requested that proper weight be given to the assertion that Taichung's rank is still 3rd instead of 2nd, in order to provide a balanced and neutral point of view. There's also substantial disagreement as to whether the population rank is notable enough to mention in the lead.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There has been a lengthy (and ongoing) discussion on the article's talk page. A third opinion was also requested (through WP:3O).

User Szqecs has maintained that any mention of Taichung's population rank requires a balanced and neutral point of view, and contends that Kaohsiung still being ranked 2nd is a significant viewpoint and must be reflected. I have attempted to clarify Wikipedia policies and requested relevant sources, although no such sources have yet been provided.

How do you think we can help?

There's some disagreement about what constitutes a neutral and balanced point of view on this subject, whether mentioning Taichung's population rank (in the lead) would indeed be undue weight and whether it's even notable enough to mention, as well as what a relevant source on this subject would be.

Perhaps you could help clarify some of these policies so that we can more readily reach a consensus on this topic. Thank you!

Summary of dispute by Szqecs

There are plenty of sources that state Kaohsiung is the second-largest city, which were cited but dismissed as being "unrelated" by Multivariable. With contradicting information for such an insignificant difference of 0.01%, Multivariable still insists that this be presented in the lead section. It has been suggested that a detailed description from the source be presented. However this is also rejected by Multivariable, who insists it be written in a simple, misleading manner.

Talk:Taichung#No mention_of_population_in_lead discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Is this a dispute between two editors only? Is the question a yes/no question for which a Third Opinion will suffice? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • A third opinion (WP:3O) was requested already, [1] and someone provided their input. [2] The input was ignored and the other editor continued to bring up new objections. I believe the discussion has gotten to the point where there are now multiple points of disagreement. Thanks! Multivariable (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

I will try to moderate this dispute. Please read the mediation rules. Is the dispute about stating that the city is the second-largest city in Taiwan? Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they are asking about the content of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors

Thanks for helping to moderate. I believe this dispute has been nearly resolved (pending confirmation from one of the editors). Yes, the main dispute is regarding whether the lead section could state that Taichung is the second-largest city in Taiwan. I think it's worth mentioning, especially since the change to 2nd (from 3rd) was a recent development, received substantial news coverage, and it appears to be fairly standard to mention population and rank in city articles to give appropriate context. I have not found the arguments against (e.g. that population rank is not notable, that stating it is ranked 2nd gives undue weight, constitutes a fringe theory, violates NPOV, etc.) to be compelling. Thanks! Multivariable (talk) 12:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China‎

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by O1lI0 on 15:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved O1lI0 (talk · contribs) Esiymbro (talk · contribs) Aknanaka (talk · contribs) Lisan1233 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview 1.Do we need to avoid the use of Chinese information? 2.What is use neutral Chinese? 3.Delete content that does not agree or dislike. Have you tried to resolve this previously? The page has socks puppet editing, IP editing and registered user edits.Some of them have similar editors.I am trying to explain my understanding of neutrality and the history of previous discussions.I know that socks puppet do not stop editing before reaching the goal, although I do not know his purpose. Remind them not to WP:GAME through due process. How do you think we can help? Honestly, I do not know.But I am very anxious about those who do not know the real purpose of the socks puppet or the Chinese group is planning what. Summary of dispute by Esiymbro Thanks O1lI0 for the invitation. I suggested the removal of Chinese terms in the leading section for two reasons, as stated at the talk page: 1. They are Taiwanese terms, and not used in mainland China. Even an editor who don't know Chinese should be able see this from the .tw websites and the traditional Chinese script they used. If Taiwanese words are used in the first line, why don't we use Russian, Portuguese, or Punjab words? I see no need to include native language terms at all, as no part of the phrase "Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China" need a native language for clarification. 2. They all mean "invasion", or "swallowing up", none means "incorporation". That they are translated wrong is obvious to any editor who knows Chinese. This was meant to be a content discussion. Yet O1lI0, refusing to answer any of the points, had made his opinion very clear: to "avoid the use of Chinese information". And by "Chinese information", the editor means not information from Chinese sources, but "All Chinese users' information". (See the talk page) This is where the point of dispute lies: the editor suggests that Chinese users should be barred from this article, so my opinion on this article is of no importance to the editor. I hope moderator can see that the dispute is unsolvable if this remains O1lI0's attitude. On the sock puppet part: The article has 96 watchers, 28 of whom visited recently. Many of them would know Chinese. And the wrong translation is right in the middle of the first line. I have already answered this at the sock puppet investigation page Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Aknanaka and a Teahouse section. I won't answer to such accusations anymore. Persistent unfounded accusations are not accusations but insults. Esiymbro (talk) 16:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Aknanaka Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Lisan1233 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China‎ discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:00, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Volunteer note - Will the filing party please state, in one paragraph, what the content issue is? This noticeboard does not consider claims of sockpuppetry (and unsubstantiated claims of sockpuppetry are a personal attack). What is the content issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC) The question is the deletion of the content, the reason for the request for deletion is not neutral or is not the usage of the People's Republic of China. No matter what the reason is related to the position of the People's Republic of China.There are currently four kinds of people who advocate the deletion of these contents 1. Single use and very few times the number of editors 2. Has been identified as socks puppet account 3.IP 4. Nationality from the People's Republic of China.I personally think that the first three kinds of people have a direct relevance, may think that this is a personal attack, but one thing can be sure that these content are controversial to the people of the People's Republic of China.And my argument is very simple, the world of the Han or that the Chinese people in the People's Republic of China's largest population base is a fact, but this does not mean that all Han or Chinese view should be based on the People's Republic of China.The view is that the People's Republic of China can not fully accept and write, the view is not the People's Republic of China can not be completely denied and deleted. This requires a certain degree of balance. If you can not reach a balance or insist on deleting or writing the position of any party, then do not write any view from the Han or Chinese people and information.--O1lI0 (talk) 12:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC) First statement by moderator I will try to act as the moderator here. I do not entirely understand what the issue is, and I need another explanation. (It appears that User:O1lI0 is having a great deal of difficulty explaining in English what the issue is. English is the only language in which we resolve disputes in the English language Wikipedia. If you can't explain disputes clearly in English, then you can either edit non-contentious articles or you can edit in another language.) Please read the mediation rules. Be civil and concise. Will each editor please explain in one paragraph what should be added to or removed from the article, or why the article should be left as it is? (Allegations of sockpuppetry should be made at WP:SPI.) Please reply within 48 hours. We can try to get this resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: I think Happyseeu's editor has reflected my thoughts and reached Esiymbro's demands. Also solved the POV problem.--O1lI0 (talk) 15:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC) First statements by editors The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Murder of Jo Cox

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by This is Paul on 17:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Murder of Jo Cox (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved This is Paul (talk · contribs) Sceptre (talk · contribs) AusLondonder (talk · contribs) Ianmacm (talk · contribs) TransporterMan (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The dispute is over whether or not this incident, the murder of a British MP, can be defined as a terrorist incident. The issue has been raised on a number of occasions but without resolution. There are references to terrorism upon the perpetrator's conviction, but generally the British media did not refer to the murder as terrorism, although it appears the case may have been tried under aspects of UK terrorism law. Most recently it has been added to two terrorism related categories. Have you tried to resolve this previously? The issue has been discussed previously, by a number of editors, but without resolution. I am one of a number of editors who have been involved in this debate. How do you think we can help? The dispute could be resolved by reaching a decision as to whether the murder of Jo Cox should be defined as a terrorist attack, and added to the relevant categories accordingly. Summary of dispute by This is Paul Although this case was tried under aspects of UK terrorism law, it seems unclear as to whether or not it has been defined as an act of terrorism by the courts. Unlike these people, the perpetrator of this crime was not convicted on a charge of terrorism, but one of murder, and references to the former in the media appear to be the opinion of one or more individuals. Because of this ambiguity I feel we should refrain from using such terms as terrorism, terrorist incident and terrorist attack in the article, as well as adding it to categories relating to terrorism. I would draw attention to WP:LABEL, which states "Value-laden labels may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". This is Paul (talk) 17:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Sceptre This is ridiculous. It is well sourced that this was a terrorist attack, and to remove any discussion of that fact would be, in effect, giving credence to the fringe viewpoint that it is not. Mair was prosecuted under terrorism protocols and, upon conviction, the CPS stated it was a terrorist murder. There is on Wikipedia, as in real life, a systemic bias that seeks to excuse terrorism perpetrated by white people as not terrorism (something that was widely discussed after the white-supremacist Charleston terrorist attack – WashPo, New Statesman). However, in this case, such a systemic bias in Mair's favour does not exist; when John Humphrys tried to claim Mair was only mentally ill, Humphrys was criticised intensely by other journalists and lawyers. The only justification that I can proffer for the removal of the terrorism categories are in service of this – frankly, racist – systemic bias against calling white people who perpetrate terrorist attacks as terrorists. Sceptre (talk) 18:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Summary of dispute by AusLondonder This should be unambiguous. Not only was the offender prosecuted by the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism division of the Crown Prosecution Service but it was described as by the CPS as the "terrorist murder of Jo Cox". Sue Hemming, Head of Special Crime and Counter Terrorism at the Crown Prosecution Service said "...his pre-meditated crimes were nothing less than acts of terrorism designed to advance his twisted ideology". The CPS list "the terrorist murder of Jo Cox MP" on their Terrorism Fact Sheet. Reliable sources, such as The Guardian have pointed out that Mair was "indeed prosecuted as a terrorist, and this was made clear during preliminary hearings". Media coverage of the sentencing also mention that Mair was a "far-right terrorist". This is Paul seems to be confused that the media did not refer to the murder as terrorism prior to a conviction - but this is based on the presumption of innocence. Mair has now been convicted and there is no longer any hesitation by official sources and media sources in using the word terrorism. AusLondonder (talk) 17:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Ianmacm Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. It's clear that Mair targeted Cox because of his crackpot political beliefs. He was given a prison sentence rather than being detained in a mental hospital, because the court found that he was sane enough to understand his actions. The main source that I have relied on is the sentencing remarks of the judge where he said "It is clear from your internet and other researches that your inspiration is not love of country or your fellow citizens, it is an admiration for Nazism, and similar anti democratic white supremacist creeds where democracy and political persuasion are supplanted by violence towards and intimidation of opponents and those who, in whatever ways, are thought to be different and, for that reason, open to persecution." This is an accurate assessment of why Mair did it, but it doesn't use the word "terrorism" explicitly. This has set off another WP:TERRORIST debate.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:25, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Summary of dispute by TransporterMan I've made a number of comments at the article talk page about the ground rules set by policy affecting this dispute. Having made them, I'm done and will not be participating further in this dispute. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Talk:Murder of Jo Cox discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC) First statement by moderator I will try to moderate this dispute. Please read the mediation rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what their issues are with regard to article content? The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article. If the primary issue is whether to describe the assassination in the lede as terrorism, please also specify why this matters in the article. It should be agreed that the body of the article should summarize discussions of the motivations of the murderer. Please reply within 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 15 August 2017 (UTC) First statements by editors The debate started off being a question of whether the events described in the article should be added to categories relating to terrorism, but the wider issue seems to be whether Thomas Mair can be described as a terrorist. The trial was held under aspects of UK terror law, but it is unclear whether he could be defined as a terrorist. He was convicted of murder, and although some media and individuals within the legal profession have used the term terrorist when describing Mair's actions, crucially, in his summing up of the case the presiding judge did not use the phrase. While I have no objections to the use of the term, I feel our coverage of these events should be impartial and reflect the judge's opinion since he oversaw the trial. I note our article on terrorism describes it as "the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim", while the Oxford English Dictionary says that it is "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims". In the case of Mair, his actions were not indiscriminate, since he selected his target. It is perhaps the same reason why someone like Lee Harvey Oswald or Mijailo Mijailović would not be described as a terrorist, even though one could make a similar argument to do so. Consequently, I feel that while we could record that Mair has been described as a terrorist by various sources, we should stop short of directly calling him one ourselves, or referring to this case as a terrorist incident, and it should not appear in any terrorism related categories. I know this is an ongoing issue that affects many articles (this being the second recent case I know of that's ended up here), and it may be that we need to have a much wider debate on the whole subject. But that's probably for another day. This is Paul (talk) 10:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC) Second statement by moderator One editor has said that, while we should report that the killer has been called a terrorist by various reliable sources, we should refrain from calling him that in the voice of Wikipedia. )This seems like the most neutral resolution anyway.) No one else has made a statement in 48 hours. Is there any disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 08:51, 17 August 2017 (UTC) Second statements by editors The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Dan Wagner#Non_consensus_based_update_to_article

– New discussion.

Filed by 95.210.221.6 on 15:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Dan Wagner#Non consensus based update to article (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• scope_creep (talk · contribs)
• Yak shaving (talk · contribs)
• Melcous (talk · contribs)
• Ol king col (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There's a dispute on the article about Dan Wagner regarding him being the founder of British E-Commerce. There are references present pre-internet to which I am able to provide scanned copies of the reputable newspapers and coverage (and, indeed, have done soon the talk page). There are also recent online references present from Asian national newspaper sites. But there is disagreement to their interpretation and reliability between editors. In my opinion, many of these references can easily be used to credit the subject person being at least called the founder of British e-commerce attributed to that source if not called the founder of British e-commerce as a fact. The former way of saying it was also my suggestion of a compromise and likely more neutral version if some one thinks that is more neutral.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Detailed talk page discussion has taken place, I have provided references and argued with contributors but the disagreement continues on content and also on how to interpret these references.

How do you think we can help?

There is contention due to some editors being blocked and others assuming other editors maybe related which has lead to more discussion about contributors and less discussion about content. Putting this aside, some prejudice on the content as well may cause this disagreement. I would like to take the help of moderators who can review our references neutrally and help us stay focused on the discussion about content.

Summary of dispute by scope_creep

Hi I don't have a dispute as such. I undertook a copyedit of a heavily spammed WP:BIO article: Dan Wagner and took out everything that wasn't puffery, or couldn't be verified via references, of which there was a lot. It was full of blog references, WP:OR, puffery, financials, share prices, IPO's, share movements, monies gained, and other non notable stuff; everything you see in this type of puffed up article written by spammers, several of them have now been blocked. The person who opened this dispute, at: User talk:95.210.221.6 wants to put a statement back in, which is synthesized from various newspaper and online articles and can't be verified to be true, hence the reason I removed it. Specifically, 95.210.221.6, who I have asked to undertake disclosure per WP:PAID, as it is somebody representing Dan Wagner, want to put in the statement that Dan Wagner is the father of eCommerce. After several hours of searching I couldn't verify the statement. I like these father types, as I'm a software engineer,like Vint Cerf, father of IP and Alan Turing, father of AI, but couldn't verify the statement. It was that original statement, that got me copy editing the article in the first place. My reason for taking it out, is it couldn't be verified as factual. It is plain WP:OR. If it was a known thing, it would be all over the shop, in IT and computing books, magazines, newspapers, the wayback machine, whitepapers, but it isn't. scope_creep (talk) 16:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I stand corrected. It is the founder of British eCommerce. scope_creep (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Yak shaving

As stated on the talk page, the original citation from https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3193955 is actually 'the founder of the British e-commerce'. That particular piece reads like a press release and is questionable under WP:INDEPENDENT & WP:QUESTIONABLE. 5 of the 6 Chinese supporting articles cited in the talk page are word-for-word the same as the Taiwan News article. The last Chinese article from the China Post does not support this claim. The newly supplied press clippings do not call the subject the 'founder of the British e-commerce'. The IP editor claims the clippings imply the subject is the founder and/or a pioneer which is WP:SYNTH, 'is a conjectural interpretation of a source' (WP:BLPREMOVE) and has no place in WP:BLP. I agree with the both scope_creep, Melcous & Ol king col, the statement should no be included. Also, it's worth noting this is a similar POV to other previously banned IP's/users, most notable Techtrek who was recently banned for socking, WP:QUACK seems very relevant. Yak shaving (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Melcous

I first came to this article as it had been flagged as one with WP:COI and WP:PUFFERY issues. I don't claim any kind of expertise or knowledge on the topic or subject of the article. But to make such a broad claim as "the founder of ecommerce" in the opening line of a WP:BLP would seem to me to require consistent and widespread confirmation (and as has been said above, if the claim was true, one would expect it to have that kind of verifiability). Instead what has been proposed is a mixture of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, as well as some poorly worded Chinese and Taiwanese sources that appear to be based on press releases issue by the subject of the article (or his company) when entering that market, at least one of which appears to be truncated from a quote that simply refers to him being the founder of a particular ecommerce company. The discussion has been made more difficult by the history of promotional editing on this article, and the difficulty in distinguishing between a number of IP editors, but there has seemed to me to be a fairly clear WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page that the phrase does not belong in the article. Thanks, Melcous (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ol king col

The claim that the subject is "the founder of British e-commerce" or words to that effect is being pushed by the filing editor based off 3 articles, the first is a recent Taiwan News article which as another author has noted appears to be based / repeating a press release. Of the other 2 sources 1 is 20 years old, the other is nearly 30 years old, both are press clippings that the filing editor has been able to supply, but no one else has been able to verify. That these articles state words to the effect that Dan Wagner was involved in e-commerce is not in dispute. Claiming he is "the founder" is what most other editors disagree with as outside these articles there is no other verifiable source. In fact there is plenty of evidence that E-commerce was happening in the UK before Mr Wagner even set up his company, and therefore it can not verifiable that he is the founder. The filing editor has made 2 recommendations, one that the statement "Dan Wagner is the founder of the British E-Commerce." as this is clearly unvrified, and untrue it can not be included. Alternatively they believe the article should say "Dan Wagner has been called the founder of the British E-Commerce by [attribute here]." I can supply 3 articles comparing the subject to David Brent http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/7341836/powa-dan-wagner-david-bowie-brent & http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3894780/Real-life-David-Brent-convinced-Goldman-Sachs-firm-worth-16bn.html & https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/28590/bowie-bentleys-and-cantonese-powa-failure-fallout-rumbles-on by the filing editors own argument we should include the statement that "Dan Wagner has been compared to David Brent". That's a patently ridiculous statement, and not worthy of Wikipedia. Finally, the subject has been in the news alot in the last few years, first for generating a huge amount of Series A investment for his business, and subsequently for the collapse of the same business, in not one of theses many, many articles in many, many very reputable publications has the claim that he is the "founder of British e-commerce" appeared. Ol king col (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Dan Wagner#Non_consensus_based_update_to_article discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing editor has notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have myself mentioned in "How do you think we can help?" section that there is contention on page related to previous editors. I know parties that maybe related to the subject or against the subject in some way were blocked and that has created more contention on the page with the remaining editors. However, I have no relation to any of the other editors (current or previous). I only joined this page when I tried to make an edit and was told to discuss it on the talk page. Editors may think that consensus is not in favour of adding the phrase but surely that is why I am here, no? To help determine a clearer consensus as I understand that consensus is not a vote of more editors, but rather valid arguments matter. Please help us determine a clear consensus and interpret the references correctly.
• I have made two recommendations:
  • Say "Dan Wagner is the founder of the British E-Commerce.". I have given references here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlU0ZVlfTGMwd0U and here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlE2eGphSEtaajA and much more recently here https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3193955.
  • Say "Dan Wagner has been called the founder of the British E-Commerce by [attribute here]." If editors disagree with above, references still support this.
• I think the second statement is fairly neutral and does not promote point of view of the subject or any editors, it also does not need widespread references as it will not be mentioned as a fact, it will be attributed to a specific, notable sources saying that. Editors have disagreed to this on talk page but I believe that this point of view is counter to wiki policies so I want the moderators here to evaluate this option as it is WP:NPOV. 95.210.221.6 (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
• Has been previously discussed here but the issue was closed as number of IP's were banned - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&oldid=789452294#Talk:Dan_Wagner.23Intro Yak shaving (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
• I want to note that King Col and Yak Shaving are also both singularly focused on this topic only and which is fine to have interest in a single topic but I want to request moderators to keep the discussion in line by striking accusations as users were banned on both sides and I have no idea who is who apart from the ones I am talking to in this dispute.

95.210.221.6 (talk) 09:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

User talk:HansMair

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by HansMair on 20:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute User talk:HansMair (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved HansMair (talk · contribs) Parsecboy (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have been contributing significant sourced material to the USS Constellation (1854) page, specifically the implement a Construction section, until Parsecboy stepped in to undo/revert all of it. He falsely accuses me of "original research", and inserting nonsense, because the official period facts don't support his modern interpretation and agenda. He seems to want to act as a super-editor/administrator, deciding on appropriate content for his favorite pages. Have you tried to resolve this previously? talk page discussion/dispute How do you think we can help? Please instruct Parsecboy to undo his revert, and begin to act appropriately as a regular editor instead of an administrator with special privileges. Summary of dispute by Parsecboy Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. In a nutshell, Hans is trying to insert fringe theories about the article in question. If we look at the edit in question, we see use of primary sources and coatracking. What we don't see are the numerous modern historians who refute the nonsensical idea Hans is trying to push. This is textbook original research, and what's more, it's based on the work of amateur historians who don't have a clue what they're talking about. On a procedural note, Hans filed this request and failed to notify me. Furthermore, his accusations are entirely baseless. I have not used the tools in any way here, nor is this is not my "favorite article" - I don't know that I've edited it at all apart from reverting his additions twice. I came to the dispute by way of this thread, where another editor reported having trouble with Hans. Frankly, there is no real point to pursuing DR at this point - consensus is against Hans on the matter; what he needs to do is accept that fact and find something else to do. Parsecboy (talk) 01:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC) User talk:HansMair discussion I created a missing "Construction" section for USS Constellation (1854); Parsecboy summarily deleted it. Dismissing sourced official records as "fringe theories", coatracking, and "original research" calls into question Parsecboy's ability to function as either an editor or administrator. He makes it worse by attacking supposed "amateur historians who don't have a clue what they're talking about." Independent Wikipedia authorities will determine for themselves that my contributions are encyclopedic and valid. I hope to continue to improve the page to reflect the two centuries-long understanding of her legacy that has only recently been called into question. That question should certainly be reflected on her page, but cannot be allowed to wipe out or cover up the facts that preceded the question.HansMair (talk) 02:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Indian Administrative_Service

– New discussion.

Filed by SshibumXZ on 07:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Indian Administrative Service (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• SshibumXZ (talk · contribs)
• Japanmomo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

So, user Japanmomo has been reverting edits on the page Indian Administrative Service for a month and a half, he uses words like 'stooge', 'illiterate', 'half-educated', 'vandalism' frequently. But that's not the issue, even after providing an adequate amount of references, he insists on imposing his opinion. So, as per Wikipedia guidelines, we decided to discuss the issue on the talk page. Even after days of attacks, we haven't been able to reach a consensus. Plus, he seems to have a disdain for the IAS, and likeness for CSS. A third party has to come into picture for peace. A mediator has to intervene.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

No.

How do you think we can help?

One of the administrators would a have to mediate. An arbirator is extremely necessary.

Summary of dispute by Japanmomo

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Indian Administrative_Service discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The discussion does not appear to have been productive. The filing party has not notified the other editor of this filing. It isn't entirely clear whether the filing party is asking for moderated discussion. The noticeboard doesn't provide an arbitrator or an administrator, but will try to facilitate discussion if the editors want to continue discussion. The filing party is asked to please consider what they want. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Google%27s Ideological_Echo_Chamber#RfC_about_including_.22Sources_cited_in_the_memo.22_on_this_page

– New discussion.

Filed by Keith Johnston on 08:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Google's Ideological_Echo_Chamber#RfC_about_including_.22Sources_cited_in_the_memo.22_on_this_page 

Users involved

• Keith Johnston (talk · contribs)
• Arkon (talk · contribs)
• Minor4th (talk · contribs)
• Dr. Fleischman (talk · contribs)
• NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs)
• Rævhuld (talk · contribs)
• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs)
• ChiveFungi (talk · contribs)
• FallingGravity (talk · contribs)
• Kingsindian (talk · contribs)
• Staszek Lem (talk · contribs)
• airuditious (talk · contribs)
• Markbassett (talk · contribs)
• De Guerre (talk · contribs)
• Athaenara (talk · contribs)
• Jazi Zilber (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Should this page contain either a section on "Sources cited in the memo" or otherwise clearly reference the sources in such a way that users can easily refer to them?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page Rfc Survey and discussion

How do you think we can help?

The talk page discussion has petered out. Its not obvious to me how to reach consensus on those discussions we have had, or how to give weight to the arguments provided. While the numbers are against inclusion many of the arguments have not been addressed.

Summary of dispute by Arkon

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Summary of dispute by Minor4th

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Summary of dispute by Dr. Fleischman

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Summary of dispute by NorthBySouthBaranof

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Summary of dispute by Rævhuld

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Summary of dispute by Volunteer Marek

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Summary of dispute by ChiveFungi

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Summary of dispute by FallingGravity

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Summary of dispute by Kingsindian

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Summary of dispute by Staszek Lem

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Summary of dispute by airuditious

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Summary of dispute by Markbassett

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Summary of dispute by De Guerre

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Summary of dispute by Athaenara

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Summary of dispute by Jazi Zilber

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Talk:Google%27s Ideological_Echo_Chamber#RfC_about_including_.22Sources_cited_in_the_memo.22_on_this_page discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Sing! China_(season_2)#Edit_dispute:_Episode_5.27s_inclusion_of_information

– New discussion.

Filed by Da Funny Dude on 14:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Sing! China (season 2)#Edit dispute: Episode 5.27s inclusion of information (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Da Funny Dude (talk · contribs)
• DerricktanJCW (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

On Sing! China, some contestants were given a second chance to sing again on stage such that a coach who previously did not press his or her button could do so again to recruit the singeron his or her team. At their self-introduction, the show labelled them "抢星学员", or "grabbing-star contestants". As I found this piece of information important to be included, I included it in the article. However, DerricktanJCW at first denied the fact that the show mentioned such a thing, but after proving him wrong, he went on to mention that it was so subtle that no one would notice it. His eit descriptions included remarks like "JUST STOP" and "I believe I have said enough here." without properly explaining his stand, despite numerous requests to leave a message on my talk page so that this issue could reach a compromise. He still did not budge, so I decided to bring this issue to dispute resolution. I hope that this issue can be resolved peacefully. Thank you.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I left messages on his talk page, where he did not reply to them, and instead deleted them.

How do you think we can help?

I hope that DerricktanJCW will accept what I am editing as true and supported, and that you would help me explain my stance to him as he refuses to listen to anything. You can check the Sing! China revision history (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sing!_China_(season_2)&action=history) to assist you in this. Thank you so much.

Summary of dispute by DerricktanJCW

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Talk:Sing! China_(season_2)#Edit_dispute:_Episode_5.27s_inclusion_of_information discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.