Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard: Difference between revisions
Sangdeboeuf (talk | contribs) →Christina Hoff Sommers: Reply Bilby |
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::::The tweet specifically says "I'm not anti-feminist". You can argue around that, but just as with Cathy Young, the statement is unambiguous. And if Young's statement predates the specific examples added to the article, that just shows that she has been denying that allegation for a long time - not that she did not deny it. We can get more, though, if that will help you, but fundamentally you seem to be trying to say that she is not denying that she is anti-feminist, when it is clear that she is. If nothing else, she says that she is an equity feminist. Isn't that stating that she is feminist, not anti-feminist? |
::::The tweet specifically says "I'm not anti-feminist". You can argue around that, but just as with Cathy Young, the statement is unambiguous. And if Young's statement predates the specific examples added to the article, that just shows that she has been denying that allegation for a long time - not that she did not deny it. We can get more, though, if that will help you, but fundamentally you seem to be trying to say that she is not denying that she is anti-feminist, when it is clear that she is. If nothing else, she says that she is an equity feminist. Isn't that stating that she is feminist, not anti-feminist? |
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::::It is not self-seving to make that statement. Self-serving is "I am the greatest philosophy", or "my theories are all sound". This is simply a statement of her position. If this was self-serving, then any simple denial of an allegation from any person would have to be regarded similarly. Just saying "I am not <insert allegation here>" is a simple statement of how one percieves one's stance. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 20:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC) |
::::It is not self-seving to make that statement. Self-serving is "I am the greatest philosophy", or "my theories are all sound". This is simply a statement of her position. If this was self-serving, then any simple denial of an allegation from any person would have to be regarded similarly. Just saying "I am not <insert allegation here>" is a simple statement of how one percieves one's stance. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 20:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Of course the tweet is self-serving, just like Trump saying [https://www.france24.com/en/video/20180115-i-am-not-racist-says-trump-amid-shithole-row "I am not a racist"] is self-serving. Public figures often [[WP:MANDY|have a vested interest in denying accusations]], whether or not the accusation is true. Especially when their reputation directly affects their career prospects. If we had an actual [[WP:SOURCES|independent, reliable source]] for Sommers' denial, that would be fine, but so far no one has provided any.{{pb}}The article already states that {{tq|Sommers' positions and writing have been characterized ... as "equity feminism"}} and {{tq|She has described herself as an equity feminist, equality feminist, and liberal feminist}}. Extrapolating anything about [[anti-feminism]] from this would be [[WP:OR|original research]].{{pb}}As I stated on the talk page, the word "antifeminist" shows up [https://archive.org/details/whostolefeminism00chri/page/116/mode/1up?view=theater&q=antifeminist only a handful of times] in the book Young is quoting from, and none are about Sommers herself. So there's no "denial" there that I can see. The [[WP:PUBLICFIGURE|policy in question]] specifically mentions {{em|allegations and incidents}}. Just saying "I am not an anti-feminist" as a way of deflecting any and all future criticism is not the same as responding to an actual allegation. —[[User:Sangdeboeuf|Sangdeboeuf]] ([[User talk:Sangdeboeuf|talk]]) 23:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[Elsa Salazar Cade]] [[William H. Cade]] == |
== [[Elsa Salazar Cade]] [[William H. Cade]] == |
Revision as of 23:35, 5 June 2024
Welcome – report issues regarding biographies of living persons here. | ||
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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input. Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.
Additional notes:
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Jordan Peterson: discussion of sourcing and tone of a disputed paragraph
More input is requested on the BLP-related discussion I started on the article Talk page.
As a related matter, I have also been asked on my Talk page[1] whether this removal under BLPRESTORE/3RRNO #7 was in process or not. I removed the material after multiple editors had objected on BLP grounds, for apparent NPOV violation and poor sourcing, pending affirmative consensus on Talk.
I'm uncertain whether this is the correct venue for the latter discussion, but additional input on this is also welcome. Newimpartial (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Based on comments on Talk, the question at issue about BLPRESTORE and 3RRNO seems to be whether 3RRNO #7 is limited to potentially harmful BLP material, or whether biased or poorly sourced material in general may be removed on these grounds. The relevant language of WP:3RRNO and WP:BLPRESTORE does not seem to be limited to harmful material, but there may be some context here that my neurodivergence has missed.
- If the intention of these passages is that 3RRNO #7 only covers potentially harmful BLP material, then I think a centralized discussion is required to alter the policy language. Newimpartial (talk) 16:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- This seems to be one of those things where a little common sense would need to come into play. There's an inherent danger in making a policy too specific because where such limitations can be helpful in one circumstance they can be a hinderance in another, and policy needs some room for flexibility to account for different situations. In general, not everything in a bio falls under BLP policy exclusively. Many things fall under NPOV, RS, OR, V, etc... The purpose of BLP policy is primarily to protect our subjects and their rights, so I'm not really seeing any kind of BLP policy issue at play here, and if this is something more related to NPOV or RS then it doesn't seem like 3RRNO or BLPRESTORE can readily be invoked in the name of BLP policy.
- That said, the disputed paragraph is a nightmare to read due to WP:OVERKILL and reeks of synth and OR. It always raises a big red-flag when so many refs are used for a single sentence, especially when they're interstitially dispersed throughout the sentence like that. I mean, if you need to cite every single word, it starts to come off like a Jack van Impe sermon, but instead of using the Bible to predict the end of the world we're citing every primary source with his name on it as proof of his fields of expertise. In other words, as written it gives some huge cringe vibes. But is it a BLP policy issue? It doesn't appear so. Zaereth (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- You'd have thought this bio subject would have enough coverage in secondary sources not to need to synth stuff up from primaries; smells a bit POV-pushy. Bon courage (talk) 05:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- That said, the disputed paragraph is a nightmare to read due to WP:OVERKILL and reeks of synth and OR. It always raises a big red-flag when so many refs are used for a single sentence, especially when they're interstitially dispersed throughout the sentence like that. I mean, if you need to cite every single word, it starts to come off like a Jack van Impe sermon, but instead of using the Bible to predict the end of the world we're citing every primary source with his name on it as proof of his fields of expertise. In other words, as written it gives some huge cringe vibes. But is it a BLP policy issue? It doesn't appear so. Zaereth (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- No comment on the details, but I would be wary of relying on BLPRESTORE unless you're absolutely certain it needs immediate removal from the article. If there is consensus that it isn't a BLP issue then you are just editor waring. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Irene Tracey
Irene Tracey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
On 24 May, a new account User:Oxfordscholar334442 has added nearly ten thousand bytes of content to this biography – around a third of its present content – about an event that happened on 23 May. It's sourced, but some of the citations are to student newspapers, campaigning websites, and Twitter. It looks like a case of undue weight and, to some extent, original research. I'm not presently an employee of the University of Oxford but I have been, and occasionally do work for it. The edit could do with being reviewed by someone unconnected to the institution and these events. Grateful for any fresh eyes, MartinPoulter (talk) 19:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Simplest option is to revert the edit, as Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict only allows edits by extended-confirmed editors. Kathleen's bike (talk) 19:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Definitly came across as undue. there may be cause for some mention of the issue, but not to that extent, and not so badly sourced. I've removed it for now. - Bilby (talk) 08:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, many thanks for your feedback, I will provide an updated version with a more appropriate weight, as hearing your critque it does appear to be given undue weight as viewed in context of the whole article. A good point of comparison on the point of appropriate weight and neutrality is the Minouche Shafik article, which includes under "career" a section titled "Pro-Palestinian protests and controversy" which occupies approximately 20% of the page (460/2253 words). On the other hand the controversy with Shafik was larger than with Tracey, but also Tracey's other career sections are less lengthy given her dedication to a career path in academia. Removing one of the most covered incidents of Tracey's career would violate Wikipedia's neutrality guidelines.
- With regards to sourcing, you have concerns with some citations linking to student newspaper, campaigning websites, and twitter. Firstly, the student newspapers' reports were assessed as being reliable on this issue, given corroborating mainstream sources referenced, and were engaged in on-the-ground factual reporting. Notwithstanding, I will do a better job by providing multiple references to different sources to assuage these concerns. Secondly, the use of campaigning website of Oxford Act for Palestine and twitter was solely used to quote the official responses of Oxford Act for Palestine, which was on their website, and the University and Colleges Union, which was on their verified twitter account. Equally, the University of Oxford's statement, signed by tracey, was also directly referenced. My attempt was to ensure objectivity and draw no conclusions, simply providing the reader with the different positions of the key parties involved in the controversy. Notwithstanding, the block quote for Oxford Act's response was undue, but that was because their response to the allegation of assault was itself longer than the allegation itself, by word count. Many thanks for the comments and I hope we can address them as a community without removing an objective account crucial controversy regarding this public figure.
- However, I do disagree with the allegation that this qualifies as original research, as every point was sourced and vetted by reliable sources - there was nothing different or new to the edit which was not already published by news media (secondary sources) and the parties themselves (primary sources). The parties accounts were qualified and in quotations, in line with wikipedia guidelines. There was no analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.
- Furthermore, the guidleine of Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict which only allows edits by extended-confirmed editors for related content to the arab israeli conflict does not extend to this issue. The controversy regards handling of protests as a question of proportionality and freedom of expression rather than motivation and connections to the Israel-Palestine conflict. So long as the focus is on the incident and handeling of protests it should remain open to all to discuss. Happy to hear different viewpoints on this.
- As for conflicts, I am not a member of OA4P, or the University College Union, or any of the cited organizations. I am a scholar within the Oxford University community, but am only interested in seeing a neutral and objective account of Irene Tracey, which must necessarily include the incidents of March 23. Moreover, please note that Mr Martin Poulter does bear a considerable conflict of interest as he worked particularly in the capacity of "Wikimedian in Reseidence" at the University of Oxford. Ultimately, we must work together to arrive at a neutral and objective account of Tracey.
- To conclude the March 23 incident should be included as "a controversy" which Tracey was involved, given the sea of differing opinions. We must abide by Wikipedia's neutral point of view when covering this issue, not drawing conclusions, citing the positions of the parties, the reported facts, and leaving the reader to their own devices.
- I will provide an update soon for you all to review. Oxfordscholar334442 (talk) 11:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, edits about opinions about the conflict, including protests and how they are handled, all fall under the Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict restriction. Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Please be careful with insinuations. Unlike you, I haven't edited the article or its Talk page, so bringing up a supposed conflict of interest (other than repeating what I've already declared) is pointless. And for that matter, I'm not "Mr". MartinPoulter (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just to emphasise, if this is really so important to add, someone who is extended confirmed can do it. Not you. Oxford is an extremely well known university, so it implausible that something really so important will not get the attention of extended confirmed editors so there is absolution no reason why ARBECR needs to be violated. Nil Einne (talk) 03:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also while this doesn't matter in the particular case since you should not be touching this, I'll mention it in case you are involved in future BLPs which could even include this one in areas which don't relate to her handling of the protestors etc. WP:BLPSPS clearly disallows self-published sources for material about living persons unless the material is published by the living person themselves and does not involve third parties. Clearly tweets or other official statements by other organisations are not published by Tracey so cannot be used in an article about her. The university's statement is a bit more iffy, however generally speaking in such cases, there is zero reason for us to rely on the official statement directly for anything. If it's not covered in reliable secondary sources, then it's undoubtedly WP:undue to include. Anything which is covered in reliable secondary sources should be using those as the main sources with the official statement at most added as an additional source rather than intended to support anything said in our article. Nil Einne (talk) 03:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- As of note, another non-ECP made edits to the article that I reverted. More concerning is that they created 2024 Oxford Action for Palestine Encampment, which has now been edited by ECP accounts that disputed some assertions in the original draft. Not sure if an AfD is appropriate here so I PRODed it. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Killing of Laken Riley
Killing of Laken Riley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I opened up a case about this over at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard (see here), and a volunteer suggested that I post here instead. Since multiple people have been involved in this discussion and I don't want to copy-paste massive amounts of text, I will simply advise that whoever is considering this read the discussion on the DRN, and possibly the article's Talk page as well (see here). We are seeking a decision on the language to be used in the body of the article ("murder" vs. "killing"/"homicide"), except for instances where we are describing specific charges filed or quotes from sources. Gottagotospace (talk) 17:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- (Note: I copied this from over there in case it is closed)
- Here is my view: Wikipedia is not a court of law. We do have to assume innocence until guilt is proved, but we can also use some measure of common sense. Murder is the illegal, unjustifiable killing of another person. I actually don't agree with a previous editor's suggestion that "murder" is synonymous with "killing." Saying "I killed a mosquito," sounds normal. Saying "I murdered a mosquito," will get some strange reactions. Now, the death wasn't a suicide, manslaughter or accident. There is absolutely no hint of justification, such as self-defense. The party who killed her (whether its the suspect or not) committed murder. We don't know if the suspect did it because there's an assumption of innocence until any conviction. So if he's innocent, someone else still murdered her. But even if, for example, he did kill her and argues that he has a legal excuse (such as an insanity defense) the murder still occurred even if that argument is accepted and he isn't personally culpable for the crime. The murder happened regardless of the suspect's involvement or culpability. The death was due to blunt force trauma and asphyxiation, followed by multiple strikes to the head with a rock. There is no reasonable situation that this case could be self-defense. Now a court would at least have to entertain that possibility, but we do not (at least until that is actually claimed by the defense during the trial). Also, while we certainly can't assume that the suspect is guilty, I think we can take the polices' word that he didn't know her to be true (once again until such time as the defense says otherwise) therefore negating a crime of passion. The circumstances of the death also render this idea absurd. I think it is reasonable to assume the murder was a "crime of opportunity" as has been reported (regardless of who committed it), unless this is later contradicted. Unlike other cases mentioned on the "Talk" page, the circumstances and motivation are not controversial, only what the crime signifies and that isn't relevant here. The key point is this: I have wondered under what circumstances the "ignore rules" idea is to be utilized. I think this is one such place. After all, the phrasing suggestions are guidelines, not iron-clad rules. We should use reason in certain instances instead of always following a guideline that can't account for every circumstance. I think this is an exception that proves the rule. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Once again I changed the edit back to how it was. Someone tried changing it again. Until we reach a conclusion that shouldn't be done. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 20:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TanRabbitry: Let's all note: at DNR, WP:CONSENSUS was developing against your position: OP Gottagotospace, Objective3000, Cakelot1 were against; on the article, FMSky and I have both taken corrective measures. 5:1 means you shouldn't be editing the article without a firmer consensus in your favor as the proponent of "murder" at this time. JFHJr (㊟) 00:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- An admin also was against this on the article TP[2] and reverted the mentions of "murder".[3] TanRabbitry reverted the admin. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Inquiry for second opinion. At what point does BLPN forward all this to WP:ANI? It's only been a second, and it would be the fourth venue counting talkpage, but ANI looks close already to me. JFHJr (㊟) 01:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- ...might as well make that 6:1. (Thank you, C.Fred!) TanRabbitry, what are your thoughts on the consensus that's apparent? Will you drop the stick until and unless a "murder" conviction is reported by a reliable source? Or would it be easier to explain at WP:ANI why your refusal to accept a consensus poses no risk to the project? JFHJr (㊟) 01:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why is it that we set out to discuss this wording on the talk page and now we have rapidly moved over to two new locations without really saying anything new? I do not believe that it is correct to say that consensus has been reached here. One editor mentioned in the last place has not even reported his perspective yet. Additionally there were other editors on the "Talk" page were not contacted as to this. One for example was @SmashingThreePlates. What is their opinion? I do not understand why after we came here to discuss this, two editors (that one happened to be an administrator is irrelevant) edited the article without us reaching a conclusion. What is the rush to say consensus is reached? I thought that was the purpose of this. Now you want to move the discussion a third time? Why not wait and hear several other opinions from disinterested editors, as well as the involved ones who haven't stated their opinion? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 01:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- An admin also was against this on the article TP[2] and reverted the mentions of "murder".[3] TanRabbitry reverted the admin. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TanRabbitry: Let's all note: at DNR, WP:CONSENSUS was developing against your position: OP Gottagotospace, Objective3000, Cakelot1 were against; on the article, FMSky and I have both taken corrective measures. 5:1 means you shouldn't be editing the article without a firmer consensus in your favor as the proponent of "murder" at this time. JFHJr (㊟) 00:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Porting my DRN comment:
Well, not every homicide is a murder. The term homicide is rather technical and unwieldy, and only means "killing of another human being," meaning some second human is responsible. So for title purposes, "killing" is sufficient. If we suspected a bear could have done it, we'd be left with "death." And if you're drawing rational conclusions not based on a legal determination per a reliable source, you've WP:NORed and WP:POVed a "murder."
Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 21:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)- The legal determination is the coroner's report. The conclusions are based on that. I feel like you're intentionally being a bit obtuse. Under what reasonable circumstances could someone be killed by strangulation and blunt trauma in a public place in broad daylight and it not be murder? All of tthose are established facts. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Murder is a legal term. Death certificates don't say "murder"; they say "homicide". And I don't see anything about strangulation/asphyxiation in the sources about Laken's death. Gottagotospace (talk) 02:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, strictly speaking I should have written "asphyxiated," rather than "strangled."
- As to a source, here you go: "Ms (sic) Riley died from blunt force trauma and asphyxiation."[1] TanRabbitry (talk) 03:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry (talk) 03:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's the only source I've seen say that. None of the other sources I've seen have said that. Besides, it doesn't matter for the point we're talking about regarding the "murder" vs. "killing" language. We can't decide if it's murder or not, for the reasons that have been explained multiple times now. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Other sources: [2][3][4]
- This a bit off topic, but some of these also mention attempted rape being a charge that was added to the indictment. I remember seeing some dispute over adding that. Is that currently in the article? What was the argument against its addition? I haven't read enough about it to have an opinion, but it seems important.
- TanRabbitry (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- That is definitely off topic. I suggest bringing that up on the article's Talk page in a new section of the discussion. It's not related to the "murder" vs. "killing" question that we're talking about here, and we shouldn't clog the BLP noticeboard with that unrelated discussion. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. That is in truth basically unrelated. I just noticed it while adding the additional sources. It should be brought up on the "Talk" page though, as I remember seeing an argument about it. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 03:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- That is definitely off topic. I suggest bringing that up on the article's Talk page in a new section of the discussion. It's not related to the "murder" vs. "killing" question that we're talking about here, and we shouldn't clog the BLP noticeboard with that unrelated discussion. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gottagotospace
- Do you think this additional evidence pointing to what could (in my opinion) only have been a murder (though by whom we do not know) would change your mind, or any other editor's mind with an opposing opinion in this regard? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 03:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nope! As I've said multiple times, murder is a legal term and it is NOT up to us to decide whether it was murder or not. The specific homicide method determined by the coroner doesn't make a difference. It's NOT for us to come to conclusions on whether or not it counts as "murder". It doesn't matter what your view on the term "murder" means. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- O.K., fair enough.
- I think we all fully agree murder is a legal term. It isn't my view of the word's definition (that's irrelevant), but the question of if this is a case where it is more accurate than an alternative. I believe that in this particular case, it is. TanRabbitry (talk) 03:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nope! As I've said multiple times, murder is a legal term and it is NOT up to us to decide whether it was murder or not. The specific homicide method determined by the coroner doesn't make a difference. It's NOT for us to come to conclusions on whether or not it counts as "murder". It doesn't matter what your view on the term "murder" means. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's the only source I've seen say that. None of the other sources I've seen have said that. Besides, it doesn't matter for the point we're talking about regarding the "murder" vs. "killing" language. We can't decide if it's murder or not, for the reasons that have been explained multiple times now. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Murder is a legal term. Death certificates don't say "murder"; they say "homicide". And I don't see anything about strangulation/asphyxiation in the sources about Laken's death. Gottagotospace (talk) 02:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- The legal determination is the coroner's report. The conclusions are based on that. I feel like you're intentionally being a bit obtuse. Under what reasonable circumstances could someone be killed by strangulation and blunt trauma in a public place in broad daylight and it not be murder? All of tthose are established facts. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here is a further point I would like to see commented on: the opening sentence of the article says that she "was abducted and killed." If that is stated in the body of the text as a matter of fact, why not that she was murdered? What is the difference? What evidence is the abduction based on other than the indictment? A coroner's report can't tell if someone was abducted. It seems inconsistent to say "abducted" and not "murdered." Would those who are against my position agree "allegedly" should proceed "abducted" based on their perspective? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 02:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Excellent point! Perhaps we should take out "abducted" too! I'm in favor of that, unless multiple people give me a good reason based in sources and/or policy why we should not. And no, none of this is sarcasm. Gottagotospace (talk) 02:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- A coroner's report is a primary source. We care mostly about how reliable secondary (third-party) sources characterize this event. JFHJr (㊟) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- A primary source may be used more than is typically allowed provided any rational person could not come to any other conclusion than the atatment that summarizes said source. Besides, that comes through news articles, not the coroner's report directly. The main point is that we shouldn't be totally bound to certain suggested guidelines. I am not directly arguing against those guidelines, that is another debate. I am not speaking of other cases either, only that this particular example is different for all the reasons I have stated. Lastly, I think the fact that it has taken several days for us to notice the abduction point it is a testament to my suggestion that we shouldn't rush. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I went ahead and removed the "abducted" language as unsupported, but anyone can replace it with a solid ref. I suggest placing it within the relevant section or the infobox. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 02:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- A coroner's report is a primary source. We care mostly about how reliable secondary (third-party) sources characterize this event. JFHJr (㊟) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Excellent point! Perhaps we should take out "abducted" too! I'm in favor of that, unless multiple people give me a good reason based in sources and/or policy why we should not. And no, none of this is sarcasm. Gottagotospace (talk) 02:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Once again I changed the edit back to how it was. Someone tried changing it again. Until we reach a conclusion that shouldn't be done. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 20:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This might be a stupid question, and I haven't read through all the discussions (sorry), but I wondered, given a global readership, whether variations in the meaning of the word 'murder' in English around the world (with dependencies on other factors like planning) should be a consideration, perhaps making simple words like killed a better choice? Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I hadn't considered that, but I believe in some other English-speaking countries: "Wilful murder is an unlawful killing with an intention to kill and murder is an unlawful killing with an intention to do grievous bodily harm." TanRabbitry (talk) 03:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually we go on what reliable sources say, and abide by WP:BLPCRIME and the rest of WP:BLP as to the accused. We don't decide something is "murder" because that's the only reasonable verdict, and yes "murder" requires a verdict in a WP:BLP context. JFHJr (㊟) 03:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- TanRabbitry, some countries use compound terms that include the word murder to convey information about intent etc., some countries don't, they use different words entirely in the absence of intent, like manslaughter. So, there is a bit of complexity associated with that word. Also, I guess there is added complexity because of US state law variations. JFHJr, I assume TanRabbitry knows what policy says, and yet they still like the word. A different kind of argument might do something different. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- "I assume TanRabbitry knows what policy says, and yet they still like the word." That is correct, although it is less "like," and more "views it as more accurate." I understand what the guidelines say. But even the most thorough suggestion, rule, guideline, law, manual, idea, theory, et cetera, cannot describe every circumstance. It is a general policy that is usually correct and should be considered first. I think that in this case we can use our liberty to "be bold" and carefully use the more accurate term. I have no idea if this should apply to any other similar article. I just think it does to this one. TanRabbitry (talk) 03:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- "Be bold" when describing a serious crime that occurred just a few months ago and the suspect is still alive? Doesn't sound like a great idea. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- O.K. How about: "I think that in this case we can use our liberty to utilize Wikipedia:5P5" and carefully use the more accurate term." I'm not sure what the suspect being alive has to with it? In my mind he has nothing to do with this since there hasn't been a conviction yet, let alone a trial. TanRabbitry (talk) 03:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- "Be bold" when describing a serious crime that occurred just a few months ago and the suspect is still alive? Doesn't sound like a great idea. Gottagotospace (talk) 03:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- "I assume TanRabbitry knows what policy says, and yet they still like the word." That is correct, although it is less "like," and more "views it as more accurate." I understand what the guidelines say. But even the most thorough suggestion, rule, guideline, law, manual, idea, theory, et cetera, cannot describe every circumstance. It is a general policy that is usually correct and should be considered first. I think that in this case we can use our liberty to "be bold" and carefully use the more accurate term. I have no idea if this should apply to any other similar article. I just think it does to this one. TanRabbitry (talk) 03:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @JFHJr
- But you are talking about a person accused committing a crime. You make it sound as if I am saying the only reasonable JURY VERDICT is guilty. This has nothing at all to do with the suspect and everything to do with the victim. My argument is that the only reasonable CAUSE OF DEATH was murder. The suspect has absolutely nothing to do with this. Who knows if he did it or not? Not us or anyone else until the trial is over. TanRabbitry (talk) 04:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually I am starting to wonder if any of us actually understand the policy. Where exactly does it say anything about people who are victims of crimes? The guideline that keeps being mentioned refers exclusively to those accused of crimes. It is not controversial or disputed that the subject of this article was murdered. The dispute is over language describing said murder. The policy referenced is presumption of innocence. @JFHJr You seem concerned I am not assuming innocence to the suspect. In fact, I have had to correct other editors who were presuming guilt on the part of the suspect. Here I am concerned over the language speaking of the victim. How is describing the murder as a murder implying that the suspect did it? Someone did it, but neither you, nor I have seen any evidence of his guilt. I have no idea as to his guilt, only that someone is guilty. TanRabbitry (talk) 04:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- This is the guideline I am arguing against here: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). Not the Biographies of Living People. I consider this as negating any idea that consensus has been reached, since we weren't even arguing about the same guidelines.
- TanRabbitry, some countries use compound terms that include the word murder to convey information about intent etc., some countries don't, they use different words entirely in the absence of intent, like manslaughter. So, there is a bit of complexity associated with that word. Also, I guess there is added complexity because of US state law variations. JFHJr, I assume TanRabbitry knows what policy says, and yet they still like the word. A different kind of argument might do something different. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
TanRabbitry (talk) 04:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Final note (for now): Perhaps there is something that is against my position somewhere else, but I would add that the referenced article on naming, explicitly states it is neither a policy nor guideline. Until such time as a policy or guideline affirming it is found, this seems like it is a dispute between the language and about a "vetted guideline." Apologies for not noticing this sooner. Maybe the last place was a better location for this discussion. It doesn't have to do the Biographies of Living People. TanRabbitry (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
My argument is that the only reasonable CAUSE OF DEATH was murder
. This claim you repeatedly insist upon is the problem. There were no witnesses to the death. We do not know if the perpetrator possessed the mens rea to commit murder. In fact, we really have no idea what occurred. A determination of murder would require knowing exactly what happened, the state of mind of a perpetrator, and knowing the detailed definition of murder in the jurisdiction of the event. WP:OR To top this off, there was intense political pressure. The ex-president two weeks later posting "Border INVASION is destroying our country and killing our citizens!" The victims name yelled out in the State of the Union address two weeks later. The Laken Riley Act passed by Congress two weeks later. This puts enormous pressure on the state to prosecute and is the political environment under which the grand jury deliberated. This is why we have trials instead of lynchings. It's also why we avoid inflammatory words and conclusions in WP:BLPs, waiting for adjudication first. We can state that one of the charges is murder. We should not call it murder in WikiVoice. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)- @Objective3000 Your comment mirrors a lot of my sentiments, although I hadn't thought about the political pressure stuff before. Thank you for phrasing it so well. Gottagotospace (talk) 11:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TanRabbitry Consider the following possibilities that could theoretically be revealed as supported during the trial:
- The police's conclusion that the suspect did not know the victim was incorrect, and it turns out the suspect and victim had a huge argument and the killing was a "crime of passion" that might count as a type of manslaughter.
- The suspect did not mean to kill the victim, but merely tried to knock her out, and accidentally killed her.
- The suspect was having a psychotic episode (from a psychotic disorder, drugs, or something else) that caused him to kill her for some reason, like auditory hallucinations commanding him to kill her, visual hallucinations of her turning into a demon, etc.
- The suspect is found to have diminished mental capacity for some reason, like an intellectual disability, that renders him unable to understand the consequences of his actions.
- Now these are all things I pulled out of thin air and there's no evidence to support them at this time, but something like that could potentially be revealed during the trial. And if this guy's found to be completely uninvolved and they eventually catch the real killer and put that person on trial, one of those possibilities could potentially apply to their trial too. Those sorts of possibilities could result in different outcomes rather than a murder conviction, like maybe manslaughter, or "not guilty by reason of insanity". Gottagotospace (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gottagotospace
- I've addressed a couple of these, but it's been a bit, so here you go: for the first instance, a crime of passion requires a greater personal history or circumstance (like catching someone in the act of adultery) than an argument that took place in a public place. For the second, the perpetrator also asphyxiated her and struck her with a rock so many times as to disfigure the face. The third does not change the status as murder, but is instead a legal excuse. The fourth is a mitigating factor that likewise speaks on the perpetrator's level of guilt, not the murder itself. In both these cases, a murder may become legally excusable, but it is still a murder.
- I saw someone has recently discussed this again on the article's "Talk" page. You may want to look at it. It refers to the "Naming conventions" page. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Although I *could* respond to all of those with counterarguments, I am going to just focus on the most important one to save everyone time here. As I've said a bunch already and you seemed to at least somewhat agree with, murder is a legal term. As far as I know, at least in the US, unless some state has some really wacky laws, there is no such thing as a "legally excusable murder". That's an oxymoron. Murder, by definition, is not legally excusable. For example, take a look at Georgia's definition of murder: https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-16/chapter-5/article-1/section-16-5-1/ This is especially applicable in the Laken Riley case, because she was killed in Georgia. If a homicide is "legally excusable" (whatever that means - I'm not a lawyer and don't know what a lawyer would think of that term), then it is ruled as something besides murder, depending on the circumstance.
- Also yes, I did indeed see that thing about the flowchart and the fact that the editor changed it without talking to anyone about it ahead of time. You probably saw my comment on that page. I was out of the house for like 10ish hours until I just got home like 20 minutes ago, and editing the BLP noticeboard is way more annoying on mobile than my computer (Talk pages aren't super annoying as though?), so my comments have been sparse. Gottagotospace (talk) 23:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gottagotospace
- A crime may be defended by excuse, which is distinct from justification. An example would be irresistible impulse. So in certain instances, murder may be excusable. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gottagotospace
- I have a new suggestion for the "Naming convention," on said page. I think it's a fair compromise that allows rational thinking on our part, based on clear reporting. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 23:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TanRabbitry Consider the following possibilities that could theoretically be revealed as supported during the trial:
- @Objective3000
- It is strange to say that we should avoid "inflammatory" words when you repeatedly bring up "lynchings." As said before, nothing I am saying assumes that the suspect committed the crime, therefore the Biographies of Living People does not apply.
- TanRabbitry (talk) 19:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I specifically said avoid inflammatory words in articles. Where have I suggested lynching be used in an article? Of course WP:BLP applies. It applies when there are articles discussing living and recently deceased people. It is a very broad policy. This is not about who did something. It is about the use of the word murder. We do not know it was a murder, as pointed out above. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Objective3000
- You're twisting my words. You have brought up "lynchings" three different times in discussions. The BLP crime section would only apply to the suspect and he is already presumed innocent, as required. It does not apply to the victim. The "Naming conventions" essay does and it is being discussed. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I am doing no such thing. I directly and correctly responded to your claims and stand by every word of my post. I have told you before, do not ping me. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you're going to attack (not personally, but in opposition to my suggestion) and then retreat without answering and demand I not say anything to you, there's really no point in responding to you at all, is there? TanRabbitry (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I answered you completely and did not say don't respond. JUST STOP THE FUCKING PINGS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I anticipate this is this the last time I will respond to you. @Gottagotospace and really every other editor here has, despite our often strong disagreement, been polite, clear and civil. You have seemingly implied bad motives on others and now resorted to a childish and obscene fit of anger. I don't see how you add anything to this discussion beyond diminishing the credibility of the opposing argument. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I answered you completely and did not say don't respond. JUST STOP THE FUCKING PINGS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you're going to attack (not personally, but in opposition to my suggestion) and then retreat without answering and demand I not say anything to you, there's really no point in responding to you at all, is there? TanRabbitry (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I am doing no such thing. I directly and correctly responded to your claims and stand by every word of my post. I have told you before, do not ping me. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I specifically said avoid inflammatory words in articles. Where have I suggested lynching be used in an article? Of course WP:BLP applies. It applies when there are articles discussing living and recently deceased people. It is a very broad policy. This is not about who did something. It is about the use of the word murder. We do not know it was a murder, as pointed out above. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Objective3000
- I believe it comes from a commendable place of commitment to innocence until guilt is proved, but you don't seem to realize my argument. Under what reasonable circumstances could the victim's death not be a murder? That doesn't imply about against the suspect. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- This has been explained again and again. Third time, do not ping me. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Same as above. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- This has been explained again and again. Third time, do not ping me. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Objective3000 Your comment mirrors a lot of my sentiments, although I hadn't thought about the political pressure stuff before. Thank you for phrasing it so well. Gottagotospace (talk) 11:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
I just had another thought. This article is not the only article on Wikipedia that has used the term "murder" to describe a homicide that lacks a murder conviction. Take a look at Lists of unsolved murders, its subpages, and many of the articles linked to from those subpages. I think that, in order to prevent hundreds of discussions like this one in the future, we should strongly consider requesting that the language in the body of an article become an explicit part of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). In order to go about that, we would need to do a Wikipedia:Requests for comment, right? Gottagotospace (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
(edit conflict) For examples of how cases can be complex consider Killing of Rachel Nickell. In that case someone was tried for murder but acquitted. For a long time, it was considered an unsolved murder and one of the people involved in the original case continued to suggest the earlier suspect was a murderer. Eventually someone else "pleaded guilty to Nickell's manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility". It's been discussed before you could likely still find sources which call it a murder but the verdict against the only person believed responsible is manslaughter.
I'm sure you can likewise find many people who call the Killing of Natalie Connolly (warning graphic content in that article) a murder and do so while identifiable and in the UK without fear despite their stricter defamation standards. Murders of Harry and Megan Tooze, Murder of Marie Wilks, Murder of Billie-Jo Jenkins are other interesting examples. All of them once had recorded convictions for murder, but all of these are now overturned so they're considered unsolved murders. In all of them, some people continue to allege (as documented in our articles) that the earlier people convicted were the perpetrators. And it's reasonably still possible we could get a Nickell type situation where someone believed to be the sole perpetrator ends up being convicted for manslaughter.
Anyway my ultimate point is while I support the guideline and keeping the title as killing, I do think it's complicated and acknowledge strictly speaking that probably means we should move cases like Harry and Megan, Wilks and Billie-Jo Jenkins to killing but I'm not sure there is much appetite for that. Definitely there is no way you'd ever be able to move Whitechapel murders. Which leads to the question should we move article like the earlier three, if someone is charged with the killing or do we wait for a verdict? Also while I think from a BLP standpoint most would support keeping a case like Nickel as "killing', there are a lot of cases which fall through the cracks. E.g. Connolly was only fixed after I brought it up here (thanks to those involved); Murder of Ee Lee still uses murder even after conviction, not for murder. The lead even says "
was an American woman who was raped and murdered by two black teenagers in a racially-motivated[3] daylight attack in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The two perpetrators, <snipped for BLP reasons>, pleaded guilty to first-degree reckless homicide
". If you get to cases without a verdict and in countries where there is less attention, I suspect our record is even worse e.g. should Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe be at that title since I think there's still no conviction (but the killers don't seem to be in doubt).And I wonder if this is one of those cases where as alluded to above, differing standards can confuse matters. Although I'd first note that while there are many differences, I think the problem is somewhat reduced for most places where English is common since since most of them also use a common law system significantly influenced by the law in either the UK or US. Within most of the English speaking world, I wonder if felony murder is the biggest source of divergence since it means in a lot of the US, stuff might be called murder which would never be in other jurisdictions now that felony murder has either been eliminated or seriously reduced. E.g. at the extreme end, if a bank robber dies during the robbery from cardiac arrest, this could be murder for other major participants in parts of the US but AFAIK not in most other jurisdictions.
Anyway back to the Brazilian example, I'm not sure how these things are handled in Brazilian law or in Portuguese. But I think generally systems in other countries can be more problematic especially since the terms used in their jurisdictions may not have perfect translations. IIRC it's been claimed before that Greece is one such place where IIRC people have claimed distinction between murder and manslaughter isn't as clear cut and there's a lack of a simple difference in terminology. (I never investigated this and could be remember wrong.)
Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- You make some excellent points! I think one thing to consider is WP:COMMONNAME, so some homicides (like the Whitechapel murders maybe?) would be called "murders" under that, depending on the media coverage. Also, in the case of a clear murder-suicide where the investigators/police/whoever ruled it that way and closed the case (e.g., Chris Benoit double-murder and suicide), that makes sense to call murder even though the likely perpetrator didn't go to trial due to their suicide. But there are some other complexities as well that you mentioned, which is another great reason why I think doing an RfC could be helpful. I don't know if I want to be the one to file the RfC though, since it seems like a huge ordeal and I'm new to all of this dispute/arbitration stuff. Gottagotospace (talk) 23:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Laken Riley: Venezuelan charged with murdering Georgia nurse". 2024-05-08. Retrieved 2024-05-29.
- ^ "Georgia nursing student Laken Riley's alleged killer indicted on 10 charges - UPI.com". UPI. Retrieved 2024-05-29.
- ^ Hughes, Rosana; Manins, Rosie. "Laken Riley case: Indictment includes new accusations against suspect". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. ISSN 1539-7459. Retrieved 2024-05-29.
- ^ Limehouse, Jonathan. "Alleged killer of nursing student Laken Riley indicted by grand jury in Georgia on 10 counts". USA TODAY. Retrieved 2024-05-29.
Anthony J. Resta
Anthony J. Resta (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I have concerns about this article. I deleted a huge amount of puffery and promotional language from it in February, most of which was sourced to Resta's own website, Youtube videos of performances and similar unreliable sources not suitable for any article much less a BLP. Later, I noticed Doc54625 (talk · contribs) reinserted some of the promotional language [4]. Having looked at Doc54625's edits, it seems 99% of them have been to this article, many of them edits covering very obscure music industry people [5] cited to unreliable sources like Discogs and Imdb, or simply adding puffery to the article about various awards. I suspect Doc54625 is actually Resta himself and this BLP has become an autobiography. I also note that the smilarly-named Doc2234 (talk · contribs) created the related Resta article Anthony J. Resta discography, which is currently full of all the refbombing puffery removed from the main article. Sockpuppetry? Iggy pop goes the weasel (talk) 21:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with your BLP-related concerns, and since you've remedied the worst of them, I'm happy to watch the page for developments. If you think there's an SPI case, you'd need a pair of editors active within a shorter time of each other than 2018/2024. I recommend waiting to see if the older account resurrects. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 22:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like two other BLPN editors have also taken note. If any further concerns pop up, feel free to ping us. Me, Discospinster and Malerooster. I'll still keep this watched for a while myself. Cheers, Iggy pop goes the weasel! JFHJr (㊟) 04:12, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Patricia Marroquin Norby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There is an attempt to state that Norby is a pretender or self-identified indigenous person. The information is based upon a [[6]New York Post] article and Tribal Alliance Against Frauds non-profit press release. It is a continuing trend to out people they claim are not Native Americans because they are not citizens of reservations.[7][8] See the talk page: Talk:Patricia Marroquin Norby, most specifically #Indigenous woman and #Reverted edits, where I have made the same points in this next article.
I just went through a long bout on the Lillie Rosa Minoka Hill (talk) article where the two editors claimed that she was not of Mohawk heritage, even though there were sources. And, that she wasn't the second Native American woman physician, although there were lots of sources, no one who claimed to have that accomplishment in 150 years, and recent identification of the accomplishment.
I believe this ties back to whether there is a complete Draft:Native American definition, so I drafted one. The big stumbling block is whether only people who are citizens of reservations can call themselves Native Americans.
Other articles have been updated with the "self-identified" tag - without sources - and making it sound like the person it trying to scam someone. Maybe that's so. If it is, then it would be great to get everyone on the same page. I fear, though, that people are being victimized.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I removed the piped label above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:CITIZEN states "Native American and Indigenous Canadian status is based on citizenship, not ethnicity. Indigenous persons' citizenship can be listed parenthetically, or as a clause after their names". She has no proof of citizenship and when that happens, their claims are stated as self-identifying, it's not defaming or anything negative, just stating the facts since she isn't enrolled or claimed by a tribal nation. See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Determining Native American and Indigenous Canadian identities. oncamera (talk page) 03:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @CaroleHenson In the reading comprehension department, I actually never claimed that Hill was not of Mohawk descent nor did I insert such a claim into the article. I clarified that she was not a St. Regis Mohawk citizen and that she self-identified as a Mohawk descendant without proof. Because that is what available sources indicate. She may very well have Mohawk ancestry. There's simply no verification. You keep asserting without evidence that the term "self-identified" is meant to defame or to insinuate that a person doesn't have Native heritage. That's false. It certainly does not imply that someone is a scammer; that is an imagined insinuation. That is not what self-identified means. By reading the Indigenous WikiProject guidance on these matters and through the numerous conversations you have participated in, you should know that at this point. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I am here to help the noticeboard anyway that I can and to explain anything that is unclear to them.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Great. You can explain to them that you were mistaken and that I never claimed that Minoka Hill doesn't have Mohawk ancestry. I claimed it was uncertain. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I am here to help the noticeboard anyway that I can and to explain anything that is unclear to them.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Neither WP:NYPOST nor Tribal Alliance against Frauds are considered RS. How do reliable sources actually describe Norby's heritage or ancestry. Do they qualify it as self-identification or do they actually state that is what her heritage is. This is not the first rodeo for the noticeboard in editors arguing to prove or disqualify whether people are described as from some particular tribe while being challenged as not being a member of the tribe. Keep in mind WP:RGW. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- According to Norby herself, many prominent Native women (America Meredith, Suzan Harjo, Nancy Mithlo, Tahnee Ahtoneharjo-Growingthunder, Jacqueline Keeler) have been speaking out about her claims, so I can only imagine more reliable sources will be published soon. Wikipedia can accurately write about these kinds of claims if you see Buffy Sainte-Marie#Claim of Indigenous identity as an example. Wikipedia isn't censored and no one is attempting to use NYP or the TAAF website to edit her article. oncamera (talk page) 08:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Oncamera: when such sources are published we definitely should add them but until they do it is too soon to try and change the article just because sources may eventually be published. An absence of sources is no better than using NYPOST or TAAF. I had a look and AFAICT, none of the sources say anything about identifying or self-identifying. Therefore such a wording is in clear violation of BLP, and editors need to cut that shit out lest they are blocked. The sources say "Patricia Marroquin Norby (Purépecha)", "Patricia Marroquin Norby, of the Purépecha people" and "suppressed her Purepeche (sic) and Apache ancestry". I have not looked at any of the guidelines but Wikipedia guidelines cannot override BLP (or any policy). If there is some guideline which tries to override BLP, editors need to fix it right now. If editors do not do so and it's a Wikiproject guideline I'll probably just take it to WP:MFD since I'm not interested in dealing with a Wikiproject which thinks it acceptable to violate BLP. I can completely understand why this is a sensitive issue and we definitely do need to look at ways we can handle it better. But this cannot be by sacrificing BLP and allow unsourced claims to be added. Instead, solutions might include relying only on top-notch sources before we add claims of indigenous identity, perhaps even excluding sources normally considered excellent if they persistently to a bad job on reporting on such issues. But ultimately Morbidthoughts, is right that WP:RGW has to come into play. There is a limit to what we can do, and it's likely in the near future we will continue to report on claims which might be inaccurate as if they are correct simply because it's what all RS say. People who are concerned about such issues need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc. That is how you correct such problems not by trying to change Wikipedia to allow poorly sourced or unsourced claims to be made. Nil Einne (talk) 11:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nil Einne Regarding
I have not looked at any of the guidelines but Wikipedia guidelines cannot override BLP (or any policy).
I have not seen a policy or guideline about Native or Indigenous people that goes against BLP. There's an essay WP:NDNID, but I don't think that's totally accurate and when it discusses people, it goes into self-identification. That has been the source used to convince me that we can use self-identification. - I am understanding from this post that the key point is what reliable sources say and I am inferring that we don't necessarily need guidelines created (Discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America#Written guidelines and I could have probably handled it better), like the definition of Native American/Indigenous person, or the MOS:CITIZEN updated, I think the verbiage needs to be reviewed for Canada. Even though this seems to be an ongoing battle, there seems to be resistance in creating guidelines. But perhaps that's not needed if we rely on the content coming from reliable sources. Is that right? (made an edit about written guidelines in parenthesis and signed again).–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Please quote which language within BLP backs up your claim. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 18:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- You start with the very beginning that "Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies" and read the part about "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." One of the core content policies, WP:OR prohibits "any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources". Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts If someone self-identifies as being of Native American descent and you mention that they self-identify as being of Native American descent in the article based on reliable sources, that isn't Original Research. It is sourced material. Saying that someone self-identifies as being of Native American descent is not an "allegation", it is a statement of fact. Self-identification doesn't imply anything other than that they self-identify as being of Native American descent. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, if reliable sources do not explicitly mention self-identification, then it is original research to presume self-identification and present it as such. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- The self-identification is person X saying they have Y descent. The are enacting self-identification by identifying as Y or Y descent. Yuchitown (talk) 03:16, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts No, it isn't original research. If someone says "I'm Apache", then they self-identify as Apache, by definition. Self-identification is one of the components of an Indigenous identity. If someone identifies as Indigenous without any proof of citizenship or tribal affiliation or descent, that's self-identification. We can note that self-identification. We cannot claim that it is verified if it has not been. We cannot include the claim that they are Apache or that they are an Apache descendant, because we have no source for it. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:16, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Inserting a premise that is not mentioned in the source is original research. WP:WABBITSEASON Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts The premise is mentioned in the source: their identity as Native or as a Native descendant. If they claim Native ancestry, that is their identity. The exact word "identify" doesn't need to be used. Wikipedia:PEDANTRY: "there is no need to verify statements that are obvious." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- If the RSes like the New York Times[9] are stating that she is of Purépecha heritage, then that's how it should be presented in the wikipedia article without any additional qualifiers. WP:DEADHORSE Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts The New York Times is not actually a reliable source for determining Indigenous identity: "Unfortunately, sources that Wikipedians usually regard as reliable, such as mainstream newspapers "of record", may also fail to fact check on Native identity, especially if it is not an in-depth profile on the individual themselves. Even The New York Times has interviewed people for articles on Native topics and falsely reported, multiple times, that non-Native people are Native — simply taking the subject at their word with no fact-checking." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You can argue that until the cow comes home. That Wikiproject does not set policy nor guidelines. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts What evidence do you have that a publication riddled with inaccuracies like the New York Times is a reliable source on determining Indigenous identity? The NYT's routine promotion of Indigenous-related falsehoods says the opposite. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I trust The New York Times on its reliability over anything you have to say, especially when it's clear from these edit summaries[10][11] what you are intending to express with edits to BLP articles on self-identification.[12][13] These are obvious edits to WP:RGW. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts Civility, please. Assume good faith, please. Please stick to the substance of my questions rather than insulting me or making accusations against me. The general reliability of NYT does not make it reliable on Native issues specifically, as demonstrated by NYT's repeated publishing of falsehoods without any attempt at verification. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 08:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you're going to say a source like the NYT should not be used for reporting on native issues, that absolutely requires a consensus at WP:RSN or similar. That's not something a wiki project with a half-dozen active members can decide for the entire project. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 00:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts Civility, please. Assume good faith, please. Please stick to the substance of my questions rather than insulting me or making accusations against me. The general reliability of NYT does not make it reliable on Native issues specifically, as demonstrated by NYT's repeated publishing of falsehoods without any attempt at verification. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 08:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I trust The New York Times on its reliability over anything you have to say, especially when it's clear from these edit summaries[10][11] what you are intending to express with edits to BLP articles on self-identification.[12][13] These are obvious edits to WP:RGW. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts What evidence do you have that a publication riddled with inaccuracies like the New York Times is a reliable source on determining Indigenous identity? The NYT's routine promotion of Indigenous-related falsehoods says the opposite. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You can argue that until the cow comes home. That Wikiproject does not set policy nor guidelines. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts The New York Times is not actually a reliable source for determining Indigenous identity: "Unfortunately, sources that Wikipedians usually regard as reliable, such as mainstream newspapers "of record", may also fail to fact check on Native identity, especially if it is not an in-depth profile on the individual themselves. Even The New York Times has interviewed people for articles on Native topics and falsely reported, multiple times, that non-Native people are Native — simply taking the subject at their word with no fact-checking." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- If the RSes like the New York Times[9] are stating that she is of Purépecha heritage, then that's how it should be presented in the wikipedia article without any additional qualifiers. WP:DEADHORSE Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts The premise is mentioned in the source: their identity as Native or as a Native descendant. If they claim Native ancestry, that is their identity. The exact word "identify" doesn't need to be used. Wikipedia:PEDANTRY: "there is no need to verify statements that are obvious." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Inserting a premise that is not mentioned in the source is original research. WP:WABBITSEASON Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, if reliable sources do not explicitly mention self-identification, then it is original research to presume self-identification and present it as such. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Morbidthoughts If someone self-identifies as being of Native American descent and you mention that they self-identify as being of Native American descent in the article based on reliable sources, that isn't Original Research. It is sourced material. Saying that someone self-identifies as being of Native American descent is not an "allegation", it is a statement of fact. Self-identification doesn't imply anything other than that they self-identify as being of Native American descent. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You start with the very beginning that "Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies" and read the part about "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." One of the core content policies, WP:OR prohibits "any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources". Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nil Einne Regarding
- @Oncamera: when such sources are published we definitely should add them but until they do it is too soon to try and change the article just because sources may eventually be published. An absence of sources is no better than using NYPOST or TAAF. I had a look and AFAICT, none of the sources say anything about identifying or self-identifying. Therefore such a wording is in clear violation of BLP, and editors need to cut that shit out lest they are blocked. The sources say "Patricia Marroquin Norby (Purépecha)", "Patricia Marroquin Norby, of the Purépecha people" and "suppressed her Purepeche (sic) and Apache ancestry". I have not looked at any of the guidelines but Wikipedia guidelines cannot override BLP (or any policy). If there is some guideline which tries to override BLP, editors need to fix it right now. If editors do not do so and it's a Wikiproject guideline I'll probably just take it to WP:MFD since I'm not interested in dealing with a Wikiproject which thinks it acceptable to violate BLP. I can completely understand why this is a sensitive issue and we definitely do need to look at ways we can handle it better. But this cannot be by sacrificing BLP and allow unsourced claims to be added. Instead, solutions might include relying only on top-notch sources before we add claims of indigenous identity, perhaps even excluding sources normally considered excellent if they persistently to a bad job on reporting on such issues. But ultimately Morbidthoughts, is right that WP:RGW has to come into play. There is a limit to what we can do, and it's likely in the near future we will continue to report on claims which might be inaccurate as if they are correct simply because it's what all RS say. People who are concerned about such issues need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc. That is how you correct such problems not by trying to change Wikipedia to allow poorly sourced or unsourced claims to be made. Nil Einne (talk) 11:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- According to Norby herself, many prominent Native women (America Meredith, Suzan Harjo, Nancy Mithlo, Tahnee Ahtoneharjo-Growingthunder, Jacqueline Keeler) have been speaking out about her claims, so I can only imagine more reliable sources will be published soon. Wikipedia can accurately write about these kinds of claims if you see Buffy Sainte-Marie#Claim of Indigenous identity as an example. Wikipedia isn't censored and no one is attempting to use NYP or the TAAF website to edit her article. oncamera (talk page) 08:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- People are vastly overthinking this. Citizenship is based on legality. If there are no reliable sources we dont state as a fact they are a citizen of X polity. Re ethnicity/cultural heritage, if there are reliable sources that state they are of X, we state with fact they are of X. If there are no reliable sources that state it as fact, we use what they do say, or finally absent any reliable sources, we use what the subject themselves says attributed to them in a neutral fashion. "Subject claims descent of X" "Subject states they are descended from X". We do not use words like "Subject self-identifies as X" unless a reliable source explicitly does because that is a wording that says "subject says they are X and nothing else backs it up" which relies on facts not known. It is not difficult to phrase how someone describes their heritage without falling into judgemental value language, its done elsewhere all the time. If necessary quote the source directly and make it clear its a quote. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, great, that certainly makes life a lot easier.
- And, I am assuming that I can use the information from this post to make edits to remove the self-identification language from the essay WP:NDNID, except where reliable sources explicitly say that they self-identify?–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC) There's a link from MOS:CITIZEN to the essay.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Only in death, I've always saw this as a potential path forward. But what is considered a reliable source on Indigenous identity. Most of these so called reliable sources are just accepting primary evidence (the subjects own described identity) without giving it another thought (i.e. self-identification). Self-identification is a real term used by many organizations such as the UN. What do we call it when one identifies as being something but only their voice, whether through interviews, non-Native media or self-published sources is the only source for such a claim? They could use what is posted on Wikipedia as some legitimacy to point to in order to profit off Indigenous communities. I don't think Wikipedia should be legitimizing unverified claims from sources that have no way or desire to investigate such claims. The stealing of Indigenous identity to profit is not a new concept and is not one I can say I would be proud to be a part of enabling here or anywhere. In my view point it would not be honouring to myself or my heritage. That is just one aspect that makes defining identity complex. The ramifications are potentially huge and far more damaging to Indigenous cultures than for other cultures. I am open to discussion and further thought on this. I don't have the answers. I know what I believe and it doesn't always line up with Wikipedia but I will always follow consensus when it is gained through policy or discussion absent policy. Even if I don't like it. --ARoseWolf 12:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not our job to worry about it as wikipedia editors beyond 'is the source reliable'. If thats a genuine concern, then there should be a discussion about that source on that topic. But thats not what is happening across the articles here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed with Only in death here; it's not our job to police sources or put scare quotes on BLP's statements in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we just report what they say. If reliable sources cast doubt on the heritage claims of Norby, then we make the article reflect it. Otherwise this is all bog-standard BLP violations for axe-grinding purposes, and misapplication of WP:CITIZEN. And WP:NATIVE-IDENTITY is obviously an essay that has not undergone wider scrutiny and really shouldn't be used to justify anything here. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- We police sources all the time. I'm sure we all have seen arguments on talk pages discussing the quality of sources and determining WP:DUE based on the credibility of sourcing. Who is axe-grinding? --ARoseWolf 15:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- We determine if sources are reliable or if they're due weight, but that's not what's being discussed here; it's whether if, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we can decide to use Wikipedia's voice to intimate a source is lying in an interview, because of ideological considerations. Oncamera and Bohemian Baltimore certainly seem to have sharp implements out, if they're trying to put into wiki voice statements that are not in text. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- So back to this article. "Subject claims descent of X" was actually proposed by Only in death as neutral. "Subject identifies as being of X decent" is what is was reverted by Morbidthoughts. To write "claims" is more neutral than "identifies"?
- So Artnews and uwalumni.com (first two sources) are now reliable sources for Indigenous identity? The third source, a newspaper article from 2006, doesn't really say Patricia is a member and citizen of the Purépecha people, only that it is her heritage and she is descended from, which the article states now. It isn't a matter of lying, please don't conflate what I am saying. What I am saying is a tribal source connected with the Purépecha and Apache people should be the ones determining whether she is one of them definitively. Not an art website or an university alumni website. I have no issue with using "claims" as proposed above or even stating she is "descended from", with the usual proper attribution, as is currently in the article. I also don't see how "identifies" is less neutral than "claims".
- The article also states her citizenship is American because she was born in Chicago to two American citizens. This seems appropriate to law which defines citizenship. --ARoseWolf 18:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- They're reliable sources for what the person says per WP:ABOUTSELF. No one, especially Norby in those sources, is claiming they are enrolled in a tribe or a citizen thereof. The issue is trying to add "self-identifies" in a way that is clearly designed to waggle suggestively that what the source says about themselves (I'd argue "claims" can also run into that issue too, depending on the context.) You would see the potential issue with saying "Eliot Page self-identifies as a trans man", right? It's up to Oncamera and Bohemian to defend their interpretation that someone without official membership in a tribe has no right to claim heritage or identify ancestry, and must be treated as suspect by default. If that's a mainstream interpretation of reliable sources, it should be easy to demonstrate. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @David Fuchs That's not the case. As said numerous times by numerous editors, self-identified does not mean or imply Pretendian. One example would be adopted people who self-identify as being of Native American heritage but where there is simply no verification of this. I have never claimed that people without recognition of citizenship or community belonging have no right to self-identify as descendants. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- So then you understand MOS:CLAIM and realize that your choice of words shouldn't be used, right? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 22:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- As mentioned below MOS:CLAIM offers many alternatives. "Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate." Regarding the Eliot Page example, being transgender is completely different than being a member of an Indigenous nation, the latter being a collective, political identity. "Self-identify" and "self-identification" are used freely in discussions of Indigenous identity (examples) without the negative connections implied by "Eliot Page self-identifies as a trans man." In contemporary society, if a personal failed to self-identify as being Indigenous — not matter what their background was — they would just assimilate into mainstream society, possibly as a mestizo. Yuchitown (talk) 02:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @David Fuchs I see no reference to the terms "identify" or "self-identify" in MOS:CLAIM. And if you want to argue that "self-identification" is some sort of euphemism for Pretendian, it isn't. The US census uses the term self-identification. The UN uses the term "self-identification". Self-identification is one of the three defining elements of Indigenous identity in Australia. This is not terminology that Wikipedia editors fabricated. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- But it is false to say "self identified" (or unsourced) when sources don't say "self identified", and it denigrates the living person because people argue that self-identification n this context us inherently unreliable. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- So then you understand MOS:CLAIM and realize that your choice of words shouldn't be used, right? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 22:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @David Fuchs That's not the case. As said numerous times by numerous editors, self-identified does not mean or imply Pretendian. One example would be adopted people who self-identify as being of Native American heritage but where there is simply no verification of this. I have never claimed that people without recognition of citizenship or community belonging have no right to self-identify as descendants. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- They're reliable sources for what the person says per WP:ABOUTSELF. No one, especially Norby in those sources, is claiming they are enrolled in a tribe or a citizen thereof. The issue is trying to add "self-identifies" in a way that is clearly designed to waggle suggestively that what the source says about themselves (I'd argue "claims" can also run into that issue too, depending on the context.) You would see the potential issue with saying "Eliot Page self-identifies as a trans man", right? It's up to Oncamera and Bohemian to defend their interpretation that someone without official membership in a tribe has no right to claim heritage or identify ancestry, and must be treated as suspect by default. If that's a mainstream interpretation of reliable sources, it should be easy to demonstrate. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- We determine if sources are reliable or if they're due weight, but that's not what's being discussed here; it's whether if, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we can decide to use Wikipedia's voice to intimate a source is lying in an interview, because of ideological considerations. Oncamera and Bohemian Baltimore certainly seem to have sharp implements out, if they're trying to put into wiki voice statements that are not in text. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- We police sources all the time. I'm sure we all have seen arguments on talk pages discussing the quality of sources and determining WP:DUE based on the credibility of sourcing. Who is axe-grinding? --ARoseWolf 15:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
First off, there are no "citizens of reservations." Agree that "subject claims descent from x" is neutral. In Mexico, US, and across the Americas, Indigenous identity is a group identity: "It doesn't matter who you claim, it matters who claims you." When someone self-identifies/makes a claim/states (whatever term people like; I repeatedly ask for suggestions across this platform) that is all that you have evidence of until the claim is substantiated. If no groups being claimed reciprocate by claiming the person, then you need a way to express that they have made a statement about their identity. Exact quotes are best. Saying that they self-identify / claim / whatever word you like the best is not the same as saying that they are not Indigenous or lack whatever claimed ancestry. User:ARoseWolf has pointed out that it makes a difference whether something is placed in wikivoice, so exact quotes from the individual seems like the best, most accurate, verifiable course of action. Yuchitown (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- If "self-identify" was the same as "said", you wouldn't be militantly trying to make sure everyone's page says self-identify. Your pattern of editing makes your goals incredibly clear, and you'd think almost everyone outside your little sphere disagreeing with you here would prompt some self introspection, but apparently not. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 10:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Very uncivil response and does not help the discussion at all. oncamera (talk page) 10:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- The "discussion" here is you and Bohemian refusing to accept the opposing viewpoint. There's no discussion to be had here, other than to make it clear if you're edit-warring about this you have no actual guidelines or policies on your side. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- The same argument could be said that people who don't understand tribal sovereignty or tribal citizenship are treating the experts in this area as if they're conspiracy theorists or "edit-warriors" (where?). MOS:CITIZEN clearly states that being Native American/First Nations is about citizenship/enrollment and not about just race like it is for other ethnicities. This is a federal fact as well. oncamera (talk page) 17:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- But its not fact that transcends time, right? 'You're only a NA/FN if the Feds recognize you', sounds rather insulting or worse, in different circumstances. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's actually not insulting to honor tribal sovereignty and being clear when writing. There are other ways to write about people who lack citizenship/enrollment, such as self-identifying, reconnecting, descent, etc., depending on how they're claimed by their communities. No one's heritage is being erased by writing about it in a concise manner. Wikipedia can be clear and NPOV when writing so MOS:CITIZEN is being honored. I don't know why other editors keep claiming this is insulting to someone; it's insulting to treat tribal sovereignty like it doesn't matter when Wikipedia editors say so. But I see it in other discussions on this site, like not including Indigenous history on state/city pages, attempting to delete pages under the claim that entire Nations are irrelevant because they have a small population, treating Native languages like they are dead etc. I'm not surprised at how hostile the experts are being treated by others in this discussion. oncamera (talk page) 17:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Are you trying to divert to some other topic? Also, do you not know that no one here knows who you are, talking about your expertise, here, is a waste.
- At any rate, are you arguing that it is fact that transcends time? Because that would mean there were never any native peoples before the federal government. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Patricia Marroquin Norby is not a historical person born before the United States was established, so why are you changing the topic to "transcending time"? She was born in 1970. oncamera (talk page) 17:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because, this type of editing has gone across biographies in different times. So, are you saying its a fact that trancends time or not?Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not the topic here and not even the case since she's not a historical figure. oncamera (talk page) 18:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- So you refuse to say its a fact that transcends time, or is it that you don't want to say it, because you know its false? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm refusing to go off-topic, so stop attempting to bait me. This is the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard, not about historical figures. oncamera (talk page) 18:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You had no problem going off-topic when you went on and on about your "self-identified" expertise. You're the one who is suggesting its good for all time with your citation to the MOS. It's relevant to living peoples because, if there is a time limit, it means it is false that it is a universal fact, and we have to address individual circumstances among the living too. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm refusing to go off-topic, so stop attempting to bait me. This is the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard, not about historical figures. oncamera (talk page) 18:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- So you refuse to say its a fact that transcends time, or is it that you don't want to say it, because you know its false? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not the topic here and not even the case since she's not a historical figure. oncamera (talk page) 18:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because, this type of editing has gone across biographies in different times. So, are you saying its a fact that trancends time or not?Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Patricia Marroquin Norby is not a historical person born before the United States was established, so why are you changing the topic to "transcending time"? She was born in 1970. oncamera (talk page) 17:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Alanscottwalker. I would add that enforcing the colonizer's system—and for that matter an outdated version of the colonizer's system—seems rather POV. And how would it even apply to Norby being Purépecha, an indigenous group from territory currently colonized by Mexico and not by the United States federal government? While I agree that indigeneity isn't
just about race
, it seems similarly reductive to make it 'just about' enrollment, blood quanta, etc. I struggle to see how indigenous sovereignty is honored by reifying a nineteenth-century colonizer system and undermining coverage of indigenous existence by casting doubt on the indigeneity of persons. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)- People keep accusing us of WP:RGW by writing concisely, but ignoring tribal sovereignty and MOS:CITIZEN because you don't want to "enforce the colonizer's system" is literally that. oncamera (talk page) 17:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I should point out the additions to the MOS was done by only two people and I've removed it. If you want to argue this as a case of the Manual of Style, you need to actually propose it and get buy-in. One Wikiproject does not get to decide styling based on an essay. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Talk about militant behavior and having a personal axe to grind. --ARoseWolf 18:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've restore it, you'll have to prove that tribal nations are irrelevant and not sovereign nations compared to other nations of the world on the talkpage of MOS:CITIZEN. oncamera (talk page) 18:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Of course indigenous nations are sovereign. I don't think that's what's being contested. Saying someone is, say, Apache isn't necessarily saying someone is a citizen of, say, specifically the Yavapai-Apache Nation of the Camp Verde Indian Reservation. There are several federally recognized Apache tribal nations that have connections to the broader language-culture group of the Apache. This happens with other culture groups and nations as well. By way of comparison, there are citizens of Armenia, and there are Armenians in Lebanon, and Armenians in France. The latter don't have the citizenship rights of citizen Armenians in Armenia, but to say they aren't Armenian is claiming a lot more than non-citizenship.I'd add that for Norby, there is also the matter of her being Purépecha, an indigenous group that is not from a territory occupied by the United States. If one applies this narrow read of 'being indigenous' that limits it to citizenship with nations recognized by the U. S. federal government, that would make it impossible for anyone alive to be Purépecha. What is to be gained from Wikipedia incorrectly implying that Purépecha no longer exist? Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- I should point out the additions to the MOS was done by only two people and I've removed it. If you want to argue this as a case of the Manual of Style, you need to actually propose it and get buy-in. One Wikiproject does not get to decide styling based on an essay. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- People keep accusing us of WP:RGW by writing concisely, but ignoring tribal sovereignty and MOS:CITIZEN because you don't want to "enforce the colonizer's system" is literally that. oncamera (talk page) 17:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's actually not insulting to honor tribal sovereignty and being clear when writing. There are other ways to write about people who lack citizenship/enrollment, such as self-identifying, reconnecting, descent, etc., depending on how they're claimed by their communities. No one's heritage is being erased by writing about it in a concise manner. Wikipedia can be clear and NPOV when writing so MOS:CITIZEN is being honored. I don't know why other editors keep claiming this is insulting to someone; it's insulting to treat tribal sovereignty like it doesn't matter when Wikipedia editors say so. But I see it in other discussions on this site, like not including Indigenous history on state/city pages, attempting to delete pages under the claim that entire Nations are irrelevant because they have a small population, treating Native languages like they are dead etc. I'm not surprised at how hostile the experts are being treated by others in this discussion. oncamera (talk page) 17:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- But its not fact that transcends time, right? 'You're only a NA/FN if the Feds recognize you', sounds rather insulting or worse, in different circumstances. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- The same argument could be said that people who don't understand tribal sovereignty or tribal citizenship are treating the experts in this area as if they're conspiracy theorists or "edit-warriors" (where?). MOS:CITIZEN clearly states that being Native American/First Nations is about citizenship/enrollment and not about just race like it is for other ethnicities. This is a federal fact as well. oncamera (talk page) 17:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- The "discussion" here is you and Bohemian refusing to accept the opposing viewpoint. There's no discussion to be had here, other than to make it clear if you're edit-warring about this you have no actual guidelines or policies on your side. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Very uncivil response and does not help the discussion at all. oncamera (talk page) 10:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- If "self-identify" was the same as "said", you wouldn't be militantly trying to make sure everyone's page says self-identify. Your pattern of editing makes your goals incredibly clear, and you'd think almost everyone outside your little sphere disagreeing with you here would prompt some self introspection, but apparently not. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 10:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Saying that they self-identify / claim / whatever word you like the best is not the same as saying that they are not Indigenous or lack whatever claimed ancestry
: Is it not? MOS:CLAIM reminds thatTo say that someone asserted or claimed something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying disregard for evidence
(italics in original) and instructs toconsider rewriting the prose to remove the need for such verbs in the first place
. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 21:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)- Okay, ”Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate.” X person stated they are of Y descent. Neutral as per MOS:CLAIM. Yuchitown (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
All of these are a problem if they are not what the source has said. As I mentioned above, I have no problem with us being strict with sources, including rejecting some sources normally considered reliable. I think it's accepted that even quality RS should be used with care in certain situations, especially science and even more medicine, so it may be reasonable for us to do the same for indigenous identity. To be clear, the implication of this is the statement may be unsourced so that we can remove it, not that we can qualify it in some way that doesn't come from the source.
However I do think there's a limit on how far we could go with this e.g. I find it unlikely we would have excluded mention of Buffy Sainte-Marie's claimed identity. The same with Sacheen Littlefeather for that matter. Again RGW etc.
But I would strongly oppose the addition of any wording which does come directly from the source or at least so clearly implied that the cannot be no doubt. And I consider it disingenuous to say that such additions are not intended to express doubt of the claims when the reason editors want to add such claims is because they feel the original statements are too strong and so misleading and we therefore need to water them down. I mean this is one example of a statement on the talk page
Because we don't actually know that she is a Purépecha descendant or an Apache descendant. All we know is that she self-identifies as having Purépecha and Apache descent.
Or to put it a different way, why are editors insisting on adding such wording if not to qualify the claims our article make? Which would be fine if the sources support such a thing, but not when they don't.
To be clear, if the source does use a wording like "self-identifies" or is of X heritage then it's fine for us to use these wordings. And for clarity I mean the individual wordings. We can re-word them in ways where there no disagreement they mean the same thing. But if a source says heritage we cannot say self-identity or vice versa. (Some sources could do both.)
Nil Einne (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- For further clarity on the re-wording point, if a source says "she told us she is of X" or "according to A, she is X" then it would IMO be fine to say "self-identifies" or something similar like "she says she is of X". But if a source simply says "A is X" or A is of X heritage" then we cannot go around adding self-identifies or "said" or anything like that, since it's no reasonable to interpret these as the same statements. And I forgot to mention now, but WP:BLPSPS seems to IMO be clearly unsuitable as sources since such statement would IMO run afoul of the unduly self-serving restriction. Nil Einne (talk) 00:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne Claiming that editors are disingenuous in intention is tantamount to calling them liars. Please assume good faith. It is false that describing someone as "self-identified" is simply a tactic to discredit them. EG, there are people who are adopted and are direct descendants but who simply don't have documentation of their self-identified heritage. Describing someone as self-identified is a factual description of their legal status, not a value judgement or an accusation. The only time an accusation of Pretendianism is acceptable on an article is when RS's mention a Pretendian allegation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
almost always
, but not universally. "Abraham Lincoln said 'No one has needed favours more than I'." is one thing; "Abraham Lincoln said he was the duly elected president of the United States" or "Abraham Lincoln stated he was a natural born American citizen" is another. The latter examples read unnaturally; a reader of Wikipedia would expect them to be expressed in plain text if they weren't subjective or contested. Was Lincoln perhaps not the duly elected president? Did Stephen Douglas really win?This insistence that "X self-identifies" or "according to X" is completely and always neutral also elides the broader context of the particular example in this thread in which the situation isn't that only Patricia Marroquin states she's Purépacha; other people and periodicals say she is too. At what point does this mean we write a sentence that says, "Patricia Marroquin, ARTnews, and the Wisconsin Alumni Association state that Marroquin is Purépacha" (to use the sources currently in the article)? Or "Patricia Marroquin said she is Purépacha in the presence of NPR journalist Jennifer Vanasco, who didn't correct or qualify her statement and followed it up by saying Marroquin 'is indigenous'." (to use this NPR source)? To editors who don't see how the phrasing of "self-identifies" or "X says they are Y", whatever the intent, reads as casting doubt on the claims, I would ask for some trust in the feedback of editors and readers.Think of it this way. "X said Y" is the kind of couching we apply to events like reported miracles or subjective assessments. JosephSmith said he received golden plates from the angel Moroni at the Hill Cumorah
; andAccording to Mariette, she first saw the Blessed Virgin on the evening of Sunday 16 January 1933
; andSunday Times said: "comparisons
(of Harry Potter)to
(Roald)Dahl are, this time, justified"
—and, apparently, also, "According to X person, she is Y heritage"? One of these things is not like the other. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)- Tribal citizenship is not like those examples. oncamera (talk page) 01:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Actually I think it is, but it's also besides the point since we're mostly not discussing tribal citizenship. I mean if sources said person A is a member or citizen of the Kiowa Tribe or Cherokee Nation then yeah we would either need to report this as or not report it. We could not say in our articles that they self-identify as a member or citizen of the Kiowa Tribe or Cherokee Nation, or that they "say" they are a member or citizen; since that's not what the sources support. However that's not what we're discussing here.
As acknowledged by several participants we largely aren't discussing cases where someone has stated that they are a member of some specific tribe or nation or otherwise claimed to have some specific tribal citizenship but instead cases when sources simply say someone is Cherokee, or Kiowa or they have heritage/ancestry from those or whatever else. So tribal citizenship doesn't come in to it. I expect this is not an accident, making such specific claims are easier to fact check, so it's far less likely RS will inaccurately report on such things.
Still, and this gets back to my earlier point, if RS have shown repeated poor fact checking in verifying such specific and easier to verify claims and keep getting it wrong, it's likely fine to exclude such RS as evidence.
In fact, for such specific claims, IMO it's even acceptable to allow limited OR or non RS to exclude the claims when they are in doubt. To be clear, I still don't mean adding any qualifying statements, those still aren't acceptable. However if we have good reason to think the source is wrong and a limited number of RS, IMO it's fine to remove the claim even in the absence of a RS which challenges the claim. Although we'd still get into limits, if we have a large number of good RS making the claim, I'd be very reluctant to even remove the claim. We'd need to wait for sources to correct themselves or for RS challenging the earlier one to emerge. If they don't, so be it.
Again I understand why this might not be satisfactory to many, but it's what our policy requires for good reason. The solution is to fix the sources, not try and unilaterally change wikipedia.
Nil Einne (talk) 03:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "solution is to fix the sources?" oncamera (talk page) 04:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I said this way above but I understand it's easy to miss or forget but anyone concerned "need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc". While it's not mentioned in RGW, since we follow and don't lead, it's ultimately the only way editors can correct great wrongs which truly exist. Note that this is not exclusively protective of living persons. In fact, I'd say it's more common at BLPN that a living person comes to complain about how all the sources are wrong on them, and there's often little we can do to help them depending on the quality and number of the sources, the existing of sources which might contradict these etc. Nil Einne (talk) 04:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a "correct" solution. Seems like if someone asked a tribe if someone is enrolled and their enrollment office says no, that would not work as a source on Wikipedia. oncamera (talk page) 05:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually how things work on Wikipedia. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- "need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc": It sounds like their advice to me is to either do original research or go down the path of COI by telling journalists to change their articles so I can use it in a Wikipedia article. Are other editors doing that? oncamera (talk page) 08:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I remember reading in The Signpost about something like this. There were several popular myths about Grand Central Terminal that circulated even in generally reliable sources. Wikipedia editors collaborated with a secondary source periodical to research and publish a debunking of one of the biggest myths, about the value of the central clock, so as to put correct information out there in reliable sources:
Bill Burns was the first one to act against this myth, emailing research to the news site Untapped Cities. He emailed me as well, and working with User:Epicgenius, we found enough reliable sources to dispel the myth
.But probably what is meant isn't so much 'go email some newspapers' but something more organic like waiting for reliable sources to match your preferred premise. Or if that's too slow for an editor, perhaps for editors dissatisfied with the state of reliable sources can choose to go and become reliable source writers, like journalists or academics. Some members of WikiProject Women in Religion did that, participating in getting a book published, Claiming Notability for Women Activists in Religion (Atla, 2020), that could be cited in biographical articles about key women in the history of religion.Or become an advocate 'in the real world,' directly engaging media organizations and persuading them about how to report on something rather than hairsplitting and reformulating the information they report to formulate new premises they didn't themselves espouse. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 09:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I remember reading in The Signpost about something like this. There were several popular myths about Grand Central Terminal that circulated even in generally reliable sources. Wikipedia editors collaborated with a secondary source periodical to research and publish a debunking of one of the biggest myths, about the value of the central clock, so as to put correct information out there in reliable sources:
- "need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc": It sounds like their advice to me is to either do original research or go down the path of COI by telling journalists to change their articles so I can use it in a Wikipedia article. Are other editors doing that? oncamera (talk page) 08:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually how things work on Wikipedia. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a "correct" solution. Seems like if someone asked a tribe if someone is enrolled and their enrollment office says no, that would not work as a source on Wikipedia. oncamera (talk page) 05:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- I said this way above but I understand it's easy to miss or forget but anyone concerned "need to take it up outside Wikipedia e.g. by trying to convince RS to do a better job, convince them to publish articles questioning unsupported claims etc". While it's not mentioned in RGW, since we follow and don't lead, it's ultimately the only way editors can correct great wrongs which truly exist. Note that this is not exclusively protective of living persons. In fact, I'd say it's more common at BLPN that a living person comes to complain about how all the sources are wrong on them, and there's often little we can do to help them depending on the quality and number of the sources, the existing of sources which might contradict these etc. Nil Einne (talk) 04:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "solution is to fix the sources?" oncamera (talk page) 04:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
not like those examples
: That seems to point up exactly why it's weird to write about such as if it is like those examples. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tribal citizenship is not like those examples. oncamera (talk page) 01:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, ”Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate.” X person stated they are of Y descent. Neutral as per MOS:CLAIM. Yuchitown (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
First, not worried about Norby's article (practically no one has heard of this person); only worried about precedent. But concerned that saying "X says they are of Y heritage" is knocked down based on personal opinions and not on policy. It completely works with MOS:CLAIM and is as neutral as humanly possible. To the discussion that multiple sources repeated an individual's statement, the statement can be provides to "X, publications, and institutions say they are of Y heritage" and then list as many sources as you care to. Almost actor, country musician, and rapper in the U.S. has self-identified as being of Native descent (and a couple of them actually are), and Wikipedia already doesn't list this as a fact in their biography. For example, Tina Turner said she had Navajo heritage and that is published. I'd add that to her bio right now with published citations. Yuchitown (talk) 20:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- But its not ""X says they are of Y heritage" is knocked down based on personal opinions", rather it is, " X says they are of Y heritage" is "knocked down" when the sources don't say that, they say "X is of Y heritage". Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's not an opinion, it's a statement. Yuchitown (talk) 23:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- No. There are two problems here: It is either false or unsourced to say that someone 'said stated claimed or identified, when the sources don't say that or they just say "is" ' -- and it is an attempt to denigrate when the assumption is it that a living person is unreliable. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is not false to say this is a statement; it's manifestly obvious. But initially I proposed using direct quotations from sources and citing them. Yuchitown (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is false to say the person stated when the source does not say the person stated. If it's a quote of the person, fine, if the source says the person stated, fine, but we can't assume the person stated, unless the source directly says the "person stated". Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is not false to say this is a statement; it's manifestly obvious. But initially I proposed using direct quotations from sources and citing them. Yuchitown (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- No. There are two problems here: It is either false or unsourced to say that someone 'said stated claimed or identified, when the sources don't say that or they just say "is" ' -- and it is an attempt to denigrate when the assumption is it that a living person is unreliable. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not an opinion, it's a statement. Yuchitown (talk) 23:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
when you check the view history of this article, there are an extreme amount of defamatory claims that show people are using it as a hit piece. i am asking that this article be put under protection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotQualified (talk • contribs) 10:20, May 30, 2024 (UTC)
- One BLPN editor has had a hand at this article. But is this subject actually worth the hassle (notable)? It's not a very old article, and it seems established in controversy plus trimmings from a BLP that wouldn't withstand scrutiny without the controversy. JFHJr (㊟) 04:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Martin Kulldorff tone dispute (2nd attempt)
Posting again here, last time didn't get any feedback on the post that I saw. The page for Martin Kulldorff is a contentious topic related to COVID-19 and a biography of a living person. I believe there are some tone issue on the page, specifically that it is not written "responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone" and therefore violates Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Writing style." The talk page is devolving into discussion on the accuracy of the statements, rather then neutrality and encyclopedic tone. The current text does not sound scholarly or disinterested in my opinion. I don't agree with Kulldorff, I have added to the article citations that back criticism of his statements and tried to be collaborative, but trying to discuss improving the tone of the text is resulting in accusations of "POV pushing," pointing out that I don't think the tone is appropriate for a BLP results in accusations of "Wikipedia:Crying "BLP!"", and my suggested alternatives "Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing."
Current text is:
- "In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, and on that basis illogically argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination."
I believe this text is unencyclopedic, and that "error-laden", "falsely" and "illogically" in one sentence are too much and bad style. I do not disagree with the overall content of the text, but think it can improved, and am open to suggestions. I've proposed a few on the talk page, but feel that the status quo is being stonewalled, and alternatives are not being proposed. I'd like to see some back and forth to improve the current text, as any text can be improved, but really feel that people can't get past there point of view on this to discuss the text outside their opinion of the content.
Based on the criticisms from other editors, the text I propose to replace the current is:
- "Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies, such as pointing out that while influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
More eyes on this appreciated, and constructive feedback would be welcomed for how to improve the tone/wording of the sentence or page as a whole. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:51, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- If the sentence is cited to a blog on Science Based Medicine, it should be attributed as such. Howard is an expert in his field but this blog article is still WP:RSOPINION and assertions about Kulldorff should be presented as criticism from Howard. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. The article is cited as Howard J (23 December 2021). "I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives'". Science-Based Medicine. in the article. I agree that it should be attributed to him clearly though, which I have stated on the talk page, however that has not really gotten anywhere and several users are insistent on the current text. Does the proposed replacement text address your concern, and do you have any suggestions to change it further? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:SBM is a generally realiable source, so attribution is not necessary (and indeed would bring POV problems by making it look like just a 'view' that these COVID-minimizing views are erroneous). Bon courage (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:RSOPINION requires attribution even when published by otherwise RS. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is not an 'opinion' that erroneous comparisons of COVID and flu mortality rates indicates that COVID vaccination is disadvantageous (unless one thinks everything in medical science is 'opinion'). WP:YESPOV is policy, and non-negotiable. Assert facts as facts. Bon courage (talk) 07:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is a clear commentary article with the headline "'I Disagree With an Article Called “Vaccines Save Lives'". Learn the difference between expressions of expert opinions versus facts as YESPOV demands to "Avoid stating opinions as facts". Pointing out Kuldorff or his article is wrong, erroneous, or error-laden is an expression of opinion even when correctly supported by facts. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's not an 'opinion supported by facts' that influenza was not more dangerous than COVID in a given year. It's a fact in itself. Presenting it as just a difference of 'opinions' is both-siding reality in a WP:GEVAL way. Bon courage (talk) 07:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- You can prevent your N/POV concerns by assigning more weight (space) on the correctly asserted supporting facts that Howard brings up to contest Kulldorff. His opinions should still be attributed. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're concerned with "the omissions, the factual errors, and the logic flaws" detailed in that article. Those are not matters of opinion. Pretending otherwise gives credence to the antivax talking points. Bon courage (talk) 08:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- FACTS! Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what that is. But Wikipedia is indeed concerned with the facts here, not with Howard's (sardonically expressed) opinion on how he 'disagrees' about vaccines saving lives. Bon courage (talk) 08:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Facts need citations. If a point is likely to be contested, or if criticism is particularly harsh, Wikipedia:Fringe theories says it should be attributed. Kulldorf publishing an article is a fact, and the article is about Kulldorf. The criticism of that article is based on the source from Howard, not Wikipedian editors looking at the various case counts within the article by Kulldorf (that would be original research). It is Howard that did the work of disproving Kulldorfs publication, and the critique in Howard's publication, while accurate, can be perceived as harsh. Attribution of the content avoids this entirely.
- Even if it is a minority opinion, it is obvious that the current text is not universally accepted and the tone is disputed. I have preposed several alternative wordings that could avoid the perception of anything but a neutral and disinterested opinion on the part of Wikipedia. Is there an alternative text you can prepose that would address these good faith concerns? Or do you think the Status quo is the best possible wording? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- If sources are disputed by other reliable sources, that is of interest. But the 'dispute' of editors doesn't count, especially if it's PROFRINGE or flies in the face of our requirement for NPOV. Some editors seemingly want to give weight to antivax arguments. We've already had one blocked for doing that. Bon courage (talk) 19:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't want to give weight to antivax arguments, and I've repeatedly tried to make that clear. I've given weight to arguments against Kulldorff, and provided citations to support the arguments in Howards rebuttal. My CURRENT preposed text based on the points I've seen made on the talk page is above. I don't see how it is "profringe" or flies in the face of "NPOV". It is my best attempt to be objective and attribute the criticism of the publication.
- Bringing this antivax point up seems to be an attempt to "discredit or eliminate an editor with an opposing viewpoint." Are you accusing me of misconduct? Or implying I could end up blocked for preposing alternative wordings based on my good faith suggestion to attribute what I believe is particularly harsh wording? Because implying anyone who wants to change minor wording is pushing antivax agenda is harsh, and bringing up a ban feels like an attempt to disparage discussion. Stating an editors point doesn't "count", and refusal to consider alternative wordings that simply attribute statements, really seems like Wikipedia:Ownership of content behavior. Am I one of the editors who's dispute doesn't count?
- Assuming I'm not an antivax conspiracy theorist, is there an alternative text you can prepose that would address the good faith concerns? Or do you think the Status quo is the best possible wording? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 20:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- If sources are disputed by other reliable sources, that is of interest. But the 'dispute' of editors doesn't count, especially if it's PROFRINGE or flies in the face of our requirement for NPOV. Some editors seemingly want to give weight to antivax arguments. We've already had one blocked for doing that. Bon courage (talk) 19:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what that is. But Wikipedia is indeed concerned with the facts here, not with Howard's (sardonically expressed) opinion on how he 'disagrees' about vaccines saving lives. Bon courage (talk) 08:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- FACTS! Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're concerned with "the omissions, the factual errors, and the logic flaws" detailed in that article. Those are not matters of opinion. Pretending otherwise gives credence to the antivax talking points. Bon courage (talk) 08:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- You can prevent your N/POV concerns by assigning more weight (space) on the correctly asserted supporting facts that Howard brings up to contest Kulldorff. His opinions should still be attributed. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's not an 'opinion supported by facts' that influenza was not more dangerous than COVID in a given year. It's a fact in itself. Presenting it as just a difference of 'opinions' is both-siding reality in a WP:GEVAL way. Bon courage (talk) 07:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is a clear commentary article with the headline "'I Disagree With an Article Called “Vaccines Save Lives'". Learn the difference between expressions of expert opinions versus facts as YESPOV demands to "Avoid stating opinions as facts". Pointing out Kuldorff or his article is wrong, erroneous, or error-laden is an expression of opinion even when correctly supported by facts. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is not an 'opinion' that erroneous comparisons of COVID and flu mortality rates indicates that COVID vaccination is disadvantageous (unless one thinks everything in medical science is 'opinion'). WP:YESPOV is policy, and non-negotiable. Assert facts as facts. Bon courage (talk) 07:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:RSOPINION requires attribution even when published by otherwise RS. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:SBM is a generally realiable source, so attribution is not necessary (and indeed would bring POV problems by making it look like just a 'view' that these COVID-minimizing views are erroneous). Bon courage (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. The article is cited as Howard J (23 December 2021). "I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives'". Science-Based Medicine. in the article. I agree that it should be attributed to him clearly though, which I have stated on the talk page, however that has not really gotten anywhere and several users are insistent on the current text. Does the proposed replacement text address your concern, and do you have any suggestions to change it further? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Inconvenient as it might be, I would point the editors here to the discussion at article Talk, in which one editor has gone to some lengths to refute the critique published in SBM. Meanwhile the editor who opened this section is proposing article language inplying that the anti-vaccination argument by Kuldorff should have the same weight as the scientific consensus. I hope editors weighing in here will take a look at the Talk discussion and not be unduly influenced by the more limited scope of the discussion these editors have launched here. Newimpartial (talk) 10:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree the conversation needs to go to the talk page there.
- I don't agree with your framing of my proposal as implying I think the anti-vaccination argument should have the same weight of scientific consensus. In the quoted text you inserted, I stated:
- "This topic is clearly disputed between researchers, and factually the rephrasing I did is accurate, more neutral, and less judgmental. The sentence in question is uncited and uses the words "error-laden," "falsely claimed", and "illogically argued." I added the citation to the sentence in question to clearly show where it was from."
- I'm sorry if you didn't understand the full context of what I mean. Kuldorff is a researcher, and this is a dispute between him and the broader scientific community. I get that people don't like him, or agree with him, and personally think he is very wrong on this, but he is someone who has published relevant literature that would suggest he has a more informed opinion then someone like Alex Jones. The proposal I've made is to reword a single sentence, a sentence that has come up repeatedly as possibly not sounding the best to all editors, and that does not have a citation at the end of it. I have asked for proposed revisions from anyone that could compromise on it, but no one has proposed any alternative text, and are adamant that even a tag stating the tone is disputed be removed without any counter proposal change. I'm not trying to discuss the content of sources, or who is right/wrong (I strongly believe that Kuldorff is wrong in this publication), just the wording of a sentence. I personally am very much in favor of vaccinations and have professionally done research involving COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccine distribution. I have made edits to the Kuldorff page supporting arguments against his claims, including elaborating on the claims in the Howard article and giving an additional peer-reviewed citation here. As someone who is against misinformation, I believe that appearing anything but objective on these issues will only feed conspiratorial thinking, which is why I care that this is worded as professionally as possible.
- I feel like this part of your comment is not civil, and does assume good faith. I'm sorry if I've said anything that has provoked a defensive, irritated or fed-up response, I'm frustrated that what I think should be a simple issue is resulting in such strong opposition. I have opened this discussion here because I don't believe the editors are approaching the wording of this sentence from a neutral, disinterested, view and wanted more eyes on it. This is following the guidelines on Wikipedia:Consensus. Following the suggestions on the page for Wikipedia Civility, please "strike through" that part of your comment. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well, GeogSage, I am unaware what part of my comment above you might consider uncivil - but that is off-topic here, so perhaps you could explain at my Talk page or yours.
- I thought I was reasonably precise when I said you proposed
article language inplying that the anti-vaccination argument by Kuldorff should have the same weight as the scientific consensus
and linked to the language I meant. I certainly did not say, or imply, anything about your views on vaccines or Covid. I simply stated my reaction to the proposed text: namely, it offers FALSEBALANCE between the views it contrasts. I would also point out that the additional source you proposed to add in the link above, while it seems to offer a fairly mainstream view on Covid in children, does not as far as I can tell mention or cite Kuldorff, and its inclusion would seem to be WP:OR. - To be clear: I welcome more eyes on the article and would also welcome new language proposals for that paragraph that result in improved clarity (and, for that matter, encyclopaedicity) in the article text. However, your proposal does not achieve this, for the reasons I have outlined, and much of Tikitorch's comments on article Talk have amounted to WP:OR refutations of Kuldorff's critics or arguments premised on his authority as a scientist - neither of which is a policy-compliant argument relevant to article text. Newimpartial (talk) 09:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Why is reading the first two sections of the cited source and noticing the straw man argument considered original research? I am not proposing to change the BLPN article with any of the evidence from my “research”; the goal is to point out to other editors that the current text takes Howard’s most salacious claim, a straw man argument, and amplifies it by inaccurately summarizing Kulldorff’s supposed factual error. It even has Wikipedia’s assertion of factual error, not just Howard’s.
- It is probably not settled science that Kulldorff made factual errors in this essay if we can’t accurately summarize the purported error from Howard’s article. Howard’s article is a ok source because it is an expert opinion and he has the integrity to accurately quote Kulldorff in his article. Wikipedia should show such integrity. Tikitorch2 (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question, other editors do not agree with your interpretation that Howard is making a straw man argument. It is your argument elaborating that position, in which you bring in othet seemingly unrelated "facts" to suport your position, that engaged (fairly extensively) in WP:OR, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 15:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- I only cited facts taken directly from the cited source (Howard), plus a general knowledge that people get the flu shot every year. I critiqued Howard’s critique to show you its flaws, but did not propose to include any of that reasoning in Kulldorff’s page, which would make it WP:OR.
- I do not think asserting WP:OR is compelling when editors are claiming scientific consensus and false balance to maintain the current hit piece in Kuldorff’s article. Based on what scientific study are we certain Kulldorff’s essay had a factual error? (Thank you for linking to my comments which go through how Howard did not use a scientific methodology in his critique.) Tikitorch2 (talk) 18:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question, I am not interested in carrying this discussion any further into WP:OR. The errors in Kulldorff's essay were evident to me on first reading, I was happy to read some of the same errors noted in RS, and I am unintrigued by your original readings of the two sources that flatly contradict the plain meanings of both. Newimpartial (talk) 22:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- The other difference is that your opinion is reflected on Kulldorff’s Wikipedia page as if it were a known fact with universal scientific consensus. Howard’s article is not a scientific study and it fails to use the concept of a control group when comparing the risk of Covid and influenza to groups with different vaccination status. This failure was necessary in order to effectively straw man Kulldorff. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Neither Howard nor Kulldorff uses the concept of a control group, and the concept doesn't seem particularly relevant to the argument Kulldorff made against childhood vaccination against Covid. In spite of what you say, I believe there is a
universal scientific consensus
on that topic, and wikipedia is obligated to present that consenus without BOTHSIDESism in deference to Kulldorff's status asa scientist
. Newimpartial (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)- It is Howard’s opinion that Kulldorff did not control for vaccination status when he wrote that Covid risk to children was less than the annual influenza. Howard’s critique compares covid and influenza deaths without accounting for influenza vaccination rates—an unscientific methodology because it fails to control the control group.
- There is no scientific consensus backing the claim that Kulldorff made factual errors, unless you assume this straw man, unscientific comparison to a non-control group as Kulldorff’s statement of fact. This assumption is baked into the Wikipedia text as fact and is thus original research.
- There is no scientific study I am aware of that finds Covid mortality risk is greater than influenza for children in a typical year, which is what you would need to cite to argue for suppressing half of both sides regarding claims of factual error. Tikitorch2 (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, neither author discusses influenza vaccination rates, and Tikitorch's argument that either should have done so is an original intervention in scientific debate, which is not what we do on Wikipedia.
- What we have is a source (Kulldorff) arguing against what turns out to be the scientific consensus about childhood vaccination against Covid, and another source (Howard), in line with the consensus view, offering critique of Kulldorff's intervention. Placing the two on a BOTHSIDES level would be an WP:NPOV violation.
- As far as whether
Covid mortality risk is greater than influenza for children in a typical year
, that isn't the question either source is addressing and it is WP:OR, if not a red herring, to introduce it. The question addressed by the two sources is the risk posed by each virus in 2021. Newimpartial (talk) 14:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)- Wikipedia: “In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19,” that is what we have. Tikitorch2 (talk) 14:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Kulldorff: “Their [children’s] Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza,” is what was addressed. Tikitorch2 (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Howard: If we assume Kulldorff was not referring to the average year influenza risk, which his readers would understand, and compare two groups with dissimilar vaccination rates, then Kulldorff was wrong. Tikitorch2 (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't want to put them on "both sides," I am preposing that we attribute the criticism of the publication attributed to the author who the page is about to the scientist who made the criticism, rather then making that point ourselves in an unsourced sentence. The existence of the publication itself is just a statement of fact, the content of that publication has been criticized by Howard. Is there an alternative text you can prepose that would address these good faith concerns? Or do you think the Status quo is the best possible wording? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 17:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question: no, I don't think we have the best possible wording. I would prefer something like:
In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination, falsely claiming that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid. In a critical response, Jonathan Howard noted errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season - while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000.
- In other words, my view is that "influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid" is an objectively false claim to be stated as such in wikivoice, while "illogically" and "error-laden" represent unnecessary editorializing. The errors can be described by summarizing what Howard said, and readers can discern illogical thinking for themselves. Newimpartial (talk) 17:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree this is much better! THANK YOU!!!!
- If we cite both sentences, and add a second citation for "falsely," this would address my concerns. I might suggest something like:
- "In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination.<Citation1 Howard> In this essay, he made the false claim that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid.<Citation1 Howard><Citation2>... In a critical response, Jonathan Howard noted errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season - while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000.<Citation1 Howard>"
- For citations, I recommend the following in addition to Howard's publication:
- I added the title of the essay, and split the "falsely stated" into a second sentence which can have additional citations for verification. Basically, the first sentence states the essay exists, and what it argued, with a citation to verify. Then, the elaboration on the false claim in the second sentence, with several citations for verification. Then third sentence with the attribution to Howard with a citation to verify his view. I think this maintains both the appearance of neutrality and disinterest on our part, while giving the full picture on the scientific consensus that Kulldorff is considered to be wrong here.
- One note: These concerns are now minor. I would accept your version of the text over what we currently have, and drop the tone dispute, if you can agree to include the citations I offer. Thank you for giving a counter suggestion instead of just blocking change. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- The sentence "In this essay, he made the false claim that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid.<Citation1 Howard><Citation2>" is not supported by any of these sources unless one assumes Kulldorff was comparing the unvaccinated mortality risk of Covid to the vaccinated mortality risk of Influenza, when it is at least as likely he was comparing equally unvaccinated groups. It is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims.
- Citation 1:
- Compared patients 0-<5 years hospitalized with Covid-19 in 04/21-03/22 to influenza in 04/19-03/20. Amoungst these impatient death was 0.5% with Covid, 0.3% with influenza.
- The findings of this study should be interpreted in the context of its limitations. Other pediatric outcomes, such as MIS-C and long-term COVID-19 and influenza complications, were not examined. Information on maternal COVID-19 and influenza vaccination or general immunization history for the children in this study population were not captured in the data source. Therefore, we did not evaluate the impact of maternal and child influenza immunization on disease severity...
- During the 2019-2020 influenza season in the US, amoung children aged 6 months to <5 years (estimated vaccination coverate: 75.5%) the CDC apporximated 82 deaths were avoided with influenza vaccination (compared to 124 deaths (ref 35)).
- Citation 2:
- Researchers compared 179 children with influenza infection to 381 with COVID-19 at 16 United States hospitals. Patients with critical COVID-19 stayed longer in the PICU than kids with critical influenza and mortality was low (2-3%) but similar in both groups.
- The odds of death or requiring life support in children with influenza vs COVID-19 were similar (adjusted odds ratio, 1.30; 95% confidence interval, .78-2.15; P = .32).
- Some of the differences in severity may also be explained by the fact that all children with COVID-19 had not received SARS-CoV-2 vaccination because enrollment preceded vaccine authorization. In contrast, some children with influenza were either fully (69 of 179, 39.0%) or partially (17 of 179, 9.5%) vaccinated, which likely attenuated influenza severity [5]. Therefore, the similarities in the severity and outcomes of children with influenza or COVID-19 should be interpreted with caution until future studies include a cohort of COVID-19–vaccinated children. Tikitorch2 (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- You conveniently ignore the systematic review, which discusses MIS-C, a complication that children can get after a COVID-19 infection. This is something Citation 1 states it does not examine. The Howard article DID mention it. In Citation 3 "
- Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children: A systematic review"
- "A notable finding was that 11 of 662 individuals (1·7%) did not survive. The death rate in this review is comparable to that observed in adults with severe COVID-19 between the ages of 55–64 years (1% to 3%) [29]. While low, it is much higher than the 0.09% mortality rate observed in children with COVID-19 [24]. While writing this manuscript a new study was published involving 570 US patients with MIS-C [28]. The percentage of deaths for the cohort was comparable to the one observed in this review (n = 10, 1·8%)."
- COVID-19 is uniquely hazardous to children in that roughly 30 out of 100,000 COVID-19 patients under 21 will experience a MIS-C.
- GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am not trying to ignore it--I deliberately included the sentence "Other pediatric outcomes, such as MIS-C and long-term COVID-19 and influenza complications, were not examined" from citation 1.
- So (11/662)*(30/100,000) = 5 MIS-C deaths/1,000,000 covid cases...add that to 0.009 and the result is...still ~0.009.
- Are you saying these MIS-C sources support the claim that "In this essay, he made the false claim that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid"? Or is it meant to reinforce a later sentence about Kulldorff omitting MIS-C in his essay? Tikitorch2 (talk) 04:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Howard made that claim. These sources just provide some additional validation for the statement. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- They are interesting studies but for each of the three reasons cited above, their conclusions are not strong enough to support an assertion that Kulldorff made a "false claim that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid," without significant original research on our part by assuming a non-apparent, unlikely interpretation of what exactly Kulldorff meant by influenza risk. This assertion should not be made unless attributed to Howard by an in-text source description.
- Since attributing it to Howard's opinion piece would be redundant, I suggest dropping the sentence "In this essay, he made the false claim that influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid." entirely. Tikitorch2 (talk) 23:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Howard made that claim. These sources just provide some additional validation for the statement. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I believe the thread between Geog and Tikitorch illustrates why I think we need to be careful in choosing additional sources for the passage besides Kulldorff and Howard. The first two sources proposed above deal with the risk to children once hospitalixed with Covid or influenza, and the third study addresses the intersection bwtween Covid and MIS-C. To my knowledge, neither Kulldorff nor Howard is addressing health risks specifically among those hospitalized with these two viruses and neither addresses MOS-C explicitly. If these assessments are accurate, then I don't think any of the three sources are suitable to be added to the text in question, because of WP:SYNTH issues. Newimpartial (talk) 14:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that neither Kulldorff nor Howard were that specific as to what exactly they were addressing with their comments, so we have to rely on outside opinion's like Howard's for the other side. If the underlying data had more information, maybe the magnitudes of the results would be so strong this discussion would have never arose. Personally I am happy to now know more about these studies. Tikitorch2 (talk) 23:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- In Howard's publication he states:
- "Others needed lung transplants or amputations. 5,973 children have had MIS-C thus far, though this may be a substantial undercount. In one study, 80% of children with MIS-C went to the ICU and 20% needed mechanical ventilation. 52 children have died of MIS-C."
- GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- For comparison, Howard's article also said 1000 children had died from Covid 19 so, like the MIS-C studies provided above, MIS-C Covid deaths are apparently a minor portion of overall child Covid mortality (perhaps about 5% based on these two numbers from Howard). Given this, MIS-C is likely irrelevant to the un-sourced original research at issue here, which was described as: in other words, my view is that "influenza was more hazardous to children than Covid" is an objectively false claim to be stated as such in wikivoice".
You seem reasonable, but we have been discussing this for several days and so far you are the only editor who both holds this view and has tried to find studies to properly source it. However, even for subsets studied like hospitalized children under 5 years old, none of the four studies so far show that Kulldorff made a factual error when he wrote "[children’s] Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza.” (Without relying on an explicit WP/OR interpretation that he meant the 2021 influenza specifically, or that he was comparing the risk to a child lacking the Covid vaccine with the risk of influenza to children with vaccinated immunity?)
Is there some point where you would conclude the public health data out there is not strong enough to show Kulldorff in error on this point? Or even it is possible he could be proven correct after more endemic seasons? Tikitorch2 (talk) 00:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)- Endemic seasons are irrelevant, since both our mainstream source and our dissenting source were addressing specifically whether or not it was a good idea, from an epidemiological perspective, for children to be vaccinated against Covid in 2021. Newimpartial (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia: “In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19,” that is what we have. Tikitorch2 (talk) 14:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Neither Howard nor Kulldorff uses the concept of a control group, and the concept doesn't seem particularly relevant to the argument Kulldorff made against childhood vaccination against Covid. In spite of what you say, I believe there is a
- The other difference is that your opinion is reflected on Kulldorff’s Wikipedia page as if it were a known fact with universal scientific consensus. Howard’s article is not a scientific study and it fails to use the concept of a control group when comparing the risk of Covid and influenza to groups with different vaccination status. This failure was necessary in order to effectively straw man Kulldorff. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question, I am not interested in carrying this discussion any further into WP:OR. The errors in Kulldorff's essay were evident to me on first reading, I was happy to read some of the same errors noted in RS, and I am unintrigued by your original readings of the two sources that flatly contradict the plain meanings of both. Newimpartial (talk) 22:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to note, I also don't agree with the "strawman argument" interpretation, and if I did that assertion would require a citation anyway, so three editors. In the same way that calling Howard's argument a strawman would require a citation, attribution of the critique Kulldorff's arguments requires one. Is there any room to compromise on the existing text? Or is the status quo really the only thing you consider acceptable? GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- I have never proposed asserting it was a straw man on Kulldorff’s page and had repeatedly concurred or supported your proposed revision for its improvements. However, now that I have had a day to recognize this whole thing as a straw man argument, I no longer concur. What about:
- ”Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies related to risks to children. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies.”
- This basically drops the straw man issue, since we likely won’t agree on balancing Howard’s 1 to 1000 deaths statistic by also including the quote of Kulldorff’s that it purportedly factually corrects. Tikitorch2 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question, other editors do not agree with your interpretation that Howard is making a straw man argument. It is your argument elaborating that position, in which you bring in othet seemingly unrelated "facts" to suport your position, that engaged (fairly extensively) in WP:OR, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 15:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- As noted before we moved over here, I think your proposed text is an improvement in tone and attribution. As for feedback, I'd recommend:
- "Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard refuted the claim that child Covid mortality risk is less than the risk from the annual influenza, pointing out that influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigations of COVID-19 were in place–-COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
- This allows the reader to see Howard uses a straw man argument so they can follow the citation and see the full critique. Tikitorch2 (talk) 01:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Stepping into discussing if Howard is making a "straw man argument" or not is not something we can do without sources saying as much, so I would not pursue that line of reasoning. However, as we can't say Howard is making a straw man argument without original research on our part. This is the same reason I want to attribute the criticism of Kulldorff to Howard, it is not our place to do original research or fact check the primary source Kulldorff wrote. Kulldorff wrote something, Howard pointed out it had factual inaccuracies in a response. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- If I were writing an article I would want to state what Kulldorff actually said to balance the stated evidence of factual inaccuracies. This would be good practice even if Howard didn’t straw man Kulldorff—-Howard even does so at the top of his critique.
- Regardless, I think your proposed text is a significant improvement even without this feedback, but it does worry me if we remove the obvious Wikipedia bias readers might not be driven to follow the link and investigate Howard’s article themselves. Tikitorch2 (talk) 19:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Stepping into discussing if Howard is making a "straw man argument" or not is not something we can do without sources saying as much, so I would not pursue that line of reasoning. However, as we can't say Howard is making a straw man argument without original research on our part. This is the same reason I want to attribute the criticism of Kulldorff to Howard, it is not our place to do original research or fact check the primary source Kulldorff wrote. Kulldorff wrote something, Howard pointed out it had factual inaccuracies in a response. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
John Anthony Castro
I have proposed some suggested edits to the article John Anthony Castro, which I've described here. I am not activating the edit request template at this time as I would first be keen to receive any feedback on the proposed edits from those interested in providing such feedback.
(For the record, I have previously edited this article but have not done so since the summer of 2023 when I was made aware of a WP:COI that came into being. By way of this comment, I further declare the existence of said COI, which is of a non-pecuniary nature.) Chetsford (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good. I TPd a little. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 23:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, JFHJr! Chetsford (talk) 23:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- For background context even though I'm not sure what the interest was about given the sockpuppet had first raised the possibility of a COI.[14] Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- There was no COI on 28 June 2023 (the date the sockpuppet made the claim). The COI was created later (intentionally, by the party that probably hired the service which controlled the sockpuppet) at which point I stopped editing the article. Chetsford (talk) 06:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC); edited 13:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Diana Panchenko
I think there is a BLP violation in this article.[15] Mhorg (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- That source doesn't sound ideal, and possibly isn't reliable, but the article looks ok to me (I've added a couple of other sources to it where I can find some from a quick look.
- As an aside, the image on that article looks sus to me, and possibly AI generated (I will admit I'm no expert on this), and doesn't seem to match other photos of her out on the internet. Any other thoughts? Mdann52 (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Especially with the implausible “own work” tagging. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Incorrect spelling
The name of Deiber Caicedo is incorrect, is Deiber not Déiber. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by FelipeCastroo13 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Seems doubtful — his name is spelled with accents consistently in the sources in the article that use any accents at all. You also seem to have removed other accents from names that certainly use them. What basis do you have for these changes? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Kenneth Law at DYK
Is there a possible DYK fact about Kenneth Law that does not violate WP:BLP or WP:DYKBLP if ran on the main page? Discussion at: Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Kenneth_Law Rjjiii (talk) 02:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- No. This seems like an exceptionally poor choice for a DYK feature. WP:BLP1E, WP:BLPCRIME with a pending judgment. JFHJr (㊟) 06:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Warwick Fyfe Australian Opera Singer.
Warwick Fyfe is an Australian opera singer, considered to be one of Australia’s leading exponents of the Wagnerian repertoire and has performed throughout Australasia and internationally, Most recently, he has sung the rôles of Wotan / Wanderer (MO, OMM and Alberich, OA). Other Wagner rôles include Heerrufer (OA); Beckmesser (OA); Klingsor (OA); Hunding (WASO); Dutchman (OA), Daland (VO); Wolfram (OA); Fasolt (SOSA).
Other major work encompasses Amonasro (Aida-FNO, OA); Pizarro (Fidelio-MO, OA,WASO); Athanaël (Thaïs-FNO); Peter (Hansel and Gretel- OA),OMM); Four Villains (Tales of Hoffmann-ETO); Falstaff (OA); Rigoletto (OA, NZO); Sancho Panza (Don Quichotte- OA); Paolo (Simon Boccanegra- OA); Leporello (NZO) (OA) ; Fra Melitone (Forza del Destino- OA); Scarpia (WAO, OA); Tonio (I Pagliacci- NZO); Faninal (Der Rosenkavalier- OA); Schaunard (La Boheme- OA); Dr Schon /Jack the Ripper (Lulu- OA) ; Germont (La Traviata- OA); Mandryka (Arabella-OA).
Warwick has delighted audiences in comedic rôles, such as Bottom (Midsummer Night’s Dream, Adelaide Festival); Barone di Trombonok (Viaggio a Rheims - OA); Geronio (Il Turco in Italia- OA); Dr Bartolo (Barber of Seville- WAO) (VOC); Pooh Bah (OA); Taddeo (Italian Girl in Algiers- NZO); Papageno (OA).
Concert work includes: Gurrelieder, (SSO); Carmina Burana (MSO, QSO, Adelaide Philharmonia Chorus); Beethoven 9 (MSO), (Orchestra Wellington);; The Bells, WASO; Stabat Mater (Rossini, SSO); Viva Verdi (TYO); St Matthew Passion, St John Passion (Melbourne Bach Choir); Bluebeard’s Castle (Monash Academy Orchestra); Mahler 8 (OMM); Stabat Mater (Szymanowski), (Melbourne Bach Choir); Ein Deutsches Requiem (OA), (Melbourne Bach Choir); Messiah (State Symphony Orchestras).— Preceding unsigned comment added by R.FrancesFyfe (talk • contribs) 02:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by R.FrancesFyfe (talk • contribs) 03:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Greetings. First, please have a long (sorry, pretty long) read at WP:COI for steps to take to propose edits when you have a conflict of interest. You need always to disclose your conflict before your proposal (even though your user name makes it clear). These steps should be taken at Talk:Warwick Fyfe before escalating here. This is usually a place of last resort for when a WP:CONSENSUS cannot be reached on the talk page. Please stop editing the Warwick Fyfe article itself; talkpage it. JFHJr (㊟) 04:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- @R.FrancesFyfe: I'll note that you already received a COI notice on your own talkpage, about a day ago, and before that, a week ago (in much more verbose terms). Editors put that there for you on purpose and for good reason. Do read our WP:COI policy, please. JFHJr (㊟) 04:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Keffals
In 2022, Keffals was at the center of the DropKiwiFarms campaign, with the basis being that she was targeted by the site Kiwi Farms. It was a well-circulated & generally accepted story. Recently, a prominent YouTuber challenged the legitimacy of her claims and shortly after, The Young Turks retracted their reporting on their 2022 reporting and denounced Keffals as a "fraud". Other editors requested on the talk page that TYT's retraction be added, which I did, but Hist9600 (talk · contribs) has since pruned the article of this dissenting discourse, citing BLP & adding to the talk page discussion. ( 1), (2) If content violates BLP, then - I agree - it has no place here, but I don't that as applicable, as TYT hasn't been questioned as a reliable source. It's contentious, but it's not unfounded or illegitimate. BOTTO (T•C) 10:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- TYT is a "news commentary show on YouTube", and their accusations are based on info from another YouTube video. This is not an appropriate source for contentious claims in a WP:BLP. The policies for a BLP state very clearly that we should be "very firm about the use of high quality sources", especially for contentious claims. The content that was added included an allegation of fraud that is not corroborated by high quality independent reliable sources (see: WP:BLPREMOVE). Hist9600 (talk) 15:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is a commentary show, but they still have retracted their previous reporting and have opined that Keffals is a fraudster. The dissenting commentary isn't treated as fact, which Keffals' account has unfortunately worded as; their retraction merely states that they denounce her. Their coverage of the conjecture is nonetheless meriting of inclusion. Truthfully, the page has been unfortunately partial on the other end, treating Keffals' attribution to the campaign against her as the works of Kiwi Farms when she herself has stated, (as included in the source you scrubbed away), that Doxbin was responsible, but she didn't feel comfortable going after that site. BOTTO (T•C) 17:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Commentary channels are not reliable sources for statements about living people. Their claims may be appropriate to include with INTEXT attribution iff they are reported in reliable secondary sources. If no such reporting has happened here, the TYT source cannot be included at all, nor can the selfpub video essay. There's no way around that. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Tamzin: As you're an editor I've dealt with extensively throughout my years dating back to 2007, I'll trust your judgment. We should reevaluate the Keffals article, however, for taking her word as fact -- as is the case of any article, everything should be in perspective of "she claimed", even down to her arrest with characteristics that not only London Police, but her own fiance, refuted. BOTTO (T•C) 17:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- (FYI pings don't work if you correct them afterward. See Help:Fixing failed pings. I recommend the edit summary approach.) Personally in a case like this I recommend waiting and seeing. When there's non-RS drama about whether previous RS coverage was wrong, usually after a while RS either pick the narrative up (journalists love "Were our rivals wrong?" articles) or don't (which in itself tells us something). Sometimes, if the non-RS evidence that the RS was wrong is really compelling, we might be best to just not mention the thing at all, because WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH don't apply to editorial decisions to omit. (I wrote an essay on this, although I actually need to add more about that approach.) Given how much of Keffals' notability stems from that incident, though, I doubt that's a viable option here. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 18:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I took another look at the article and it's honestly alright. Aside from her misattribution of the perpetrators, (one of whom did post on KF but was banned), and alleged misattribution of funds, the article is pretty good. I mean, it already addresses the claim about the police deadnaming Sorrenti. Hopefully, more reliable sources will be available down the road. BOTTO (T•C) 20:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- We just need to follow high quality independent reliable sources, and base the article around what is verifiable. We don't need to resort to the constant use of words like claim, which would go against the Manual of Style (MOS:CLAIM). When the subject of an article has been the target of online harassment or has been involved in online controversies, it's important that we edit with care. WP:BLP already has good guidelines. Hist9600 (talk) 02:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- (FYI pings don't work if you correct them afterward. See Help:Fixing failed pings. I recommend the edit summary approach.) Personally in a case like this I recommend waiting and seeing. When there's non-RS drama about whether previous RS coverage was wrong, usually after a while RS either pick the narrative up (journalists love "Were our rivals wrong?" articles) or don't (which in itself tells us something). Sometimes, if the non-RS evidence that the RS was wrong is really compelling, we might be best to just not mention the thing at all, because WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH don't apply to editorial decisions to omit. (I wrote an essay on this, although I actually need to add more about that approach.) Given how much of Keffals' notability stems from that incident, though, I doubt that's a viable option here. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 18:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Tamzin: As you're an editor I've dealt with extensively throughout my years dating back to 2007, I'll trust your judgment. We should reevaluate the Keffals article, however, for taking her word as fact -- as is the case of any article, everything should be in perspective of "she claimed", even down to her arrest with characteristics that not only London Police, but her own fiance, refuted. BOTTO (T•C) 17:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Commentary channels are not reliable sources for statements about living people. Their claims may be appropriate to include with INTEXT attribution iff they are reported in reliable secondary sources. If no such reporting has happened here, the TYT source cannot be included at all, nor can the selfpub video essay. There's no way around that. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is a commentary show, but they still have retracted their previous reporting and have opined that Keffals is a fraudster. The dissenting commentary isn't treated as fact, which Keffals' account has unfortunately worded as; their retraction merely states that they denounce her. Their coverage of the conjecture is nonetheless meriting of inclusion. Truthfully, the page has been unfortunately partial on the other end, treating Keffals' attribution to the campaign against her as the works of Kiwi Farms when she herself has stated, (as included in the source you scrubbed away), that Doxbin was responsible, but she didn't feel comfortable going after that site. BOTTO (T•C) 17:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Barron Trump
Barron Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - The article is a BLP nightmare. It's currently on the main page and full of extraneous details that are not related to Barron Trump. It's already gone through 3O because the primary author reverted others when they removed detailed conspiracy theories about Barron.
Now they're re-adding details like-
In November 2016, comedian Rosie O'Donnell suggested Trump was autistic after her daughter was diagnosed with the condition.[50] Melania threatened to sue a YouTube user who uploaded a video compiling Barron's public appearances to allege he has autism.[51] Fan fiction of Trump exists on websites such as Wattpad, and social media accounts devoted to his appearance have emerged.[49]
This could really benefit from someone experienced in BLP. There's no chance "fan fiction" goes beyond WP:BLPGOSSIP.
Soni (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I have (before seeing this thread) removed most of those three sentences. (The lawsuit threat seems worth mentioning, but the exact contents of what the threat was over—obviously!—should not be mentioned. That said if someone wants to cut that bit too, I wouldn't revert.) Overnight I gave ElijahPepe some strongly-worded but collegial advice off-wiki about the state of this article (namely, that it should not exist, and that he should not revert BLP violations back into it), and I am disappointed that he has persisted in violating WP:BLPREMOVE and WP:EDITWAR on it against multiple users. Some articles should not exist. This is one of them. But if it must exist, it should be a pretty boring article about an amateur soccer player whose dad was the president.I note that Sasha Obama is a redirect. (Malia Obama is too for that matter, but actually probably could be an article now
.) Not an OTHERSTUFF argument; how we handle the articles of mostly-private relatives of public figures is an important part of BLP. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've cleaned up the article a bit more and added a {{notability}} tag. It is still, fundamentally, a grab-bag of inconsequential statements about someone with near-zero public profile. (As far as I can tell, when I was 18 I'd done more voluntary press than Barron Trump has.) The only statements in the article of encyclopedic relevance are, unsurprisingly, those about Mr. Trump's father, which belong in other articles. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Abductive seems to think it is "insane" to question the notability of a teenager who is exclusively notable for being the son of someone else. I welcome him here to discuss his concerns, hopefully in more civil terms. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am genuinely pondering sending this back to WP:AFD for a third time once it drops off the main page. I'm really struggling to find anything that doesn't involve his father. Mdann52 (talk) 18:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Abductive seems to think it is "insane" to question the notability of a teenager who is exclusively notable for being the son of someone else. I welcome him here to discuss his concerns, hopefully in more civil terms. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've cleaned up the article a bit more and added a {{notability}} tag. It is still, fundamentally, a grab-bag of inconsequential statements about someone with near-zero public profile. (As far as I can tell, when I was 18 I'd done more voluntary press than Barron Trump has.) The only statements in the article of encyclopedic relevance are, unsurprisingly, those about Mr. Trump's father, which belong in other articles. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, speculation about whether or not a living person is autistic really doesn't belong in a BLP. If it turns out he is autistic and he makes a public statement about it, then cool, it could be included at that point. But speculating about a living person's neurology is not appropriate unless there's a really good reason for it.
- The fan fiction thing doesn't belong there either. Nearly *every* public figure (or child of a public figure) has fanfic about them. Barron isn't an exception. And unless he's winning *awards* for his appearance (like if he ends up being "People's Sexiest Man Alive" or something), we don't need to comment on social media users' opinions about his appearance.
- And like others have said, he likely shouldn't have an article at all at this point in his life. Gottagotospace (talk) 18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Dear Heaven. Nuke the article from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Alice Walton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I invite editors to weigh in on a conversation about an incident that never resulted in charges and was expunged at Talk:Alice Walton. This specific event has been discussed on multiple occasions in the past on the article Talk page and at this noticeboard.
Past consensus has been not to include the event. This includes several times on the Alice Walton talk page in 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021 as well as here in 2017 and 2018.
The 2011 incident never resulted in charges and was, in fact, expunged from the record. I still believe this issue falls under WP:BLP guidelines.
I will not directly edit the Alice Walton page because I have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest; I work with the Walton family office, as I disclosed on my user page and declared on the Alice Walton talk page.
I welcome any input from editors who are experienced in this area. Kt2011 (Talk · COI:Walton family) 22:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Christina Hoff Sommers
Christina Hoff Sommers is a conservative philosopher and critic of feminism. She describes herself as an equity feminist, and is listed in the Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy as one of equity feminism's main representatives. Some of her critics have alleged that she is anti-feminist, which she has denied.
Until recently we had her denial included in the biography, but now we have a dispute about including it. We have both secondary and primary sources which state that she denies being anti-feminist.
- The argument to include is based on the WP:BLPPUBLIC, which states for public figures we should include their denials of allegations.
- The argument to exclude is more complex, but basically that her denial is self-serving, and therefore should not be included, pointing to WP:MANDY.
The text in question is a sentence to be appended to the paragraph where it is alleged that she is anti-feminist: [16].
Any thoughts? - Bilby (talk) 23:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Had we not already included her self-descriptor as an "equity feminist", then I would say that we might need the denial. However, given that we have the self-description, denying being "anti-feminist" just seems redundant. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm open to that. But the argument seems to be that saying she is an equity feminist is not the same as denying that she is anti-feminist, as only an explicit denial has been accepted. - Bilby (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify the situation, we currently state that Sommers has "called herself" an equity feminist, and then write extensively about how she is regarded as an anit-femininist. The clarification is simply to note that she has explicity stated that she is not anti-feminist, and therefore has denied the allegation. While I personally feel that being an equity feminist is not conducive to also being an anti-feminist, others have disagreed, hence the need for the one line clarification that she has denied the allegation, as per "if the subject has denied allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too." It simplifies things to include her statement, no matter whether we agree with the subject or not. - Bilby (talk)
- Bilby is misrepresenting the strength of secondary sourcing for Sommers' contention that she is "not an anti-feminist". I'll have more to say later, but for now please see Talk:Christina Hoff Sommers#Sommers' denial. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- The main secondary source reads:
- Although Who Stole Feminism? is a full frontal assault on the feminist establishment, and on such feminist icons as Gloria Steinem, Susan Faludi, and Naomi Wolf, Sommers repeatedly stresses that she herself is no anti-feminist. Rather, "I am a feminist who does not like what feminism has become." [17]
- It isn't exactly ambiguous. - Bilby (talk) 23:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- As I stated on the talk page, Cathy Young, the author of that book review, seems to be exaggerating. In the preface to Who Stole Feminism? that Young is quoting, Sommers doesn't say anything about being called anti-feminist. Young was a colleague of Sommers at the Women's Freedom Network, where they both held leadership positions.[18] So this is not really an independent source.Young's review was also published in 1994, several years before the cited sources describing Sommers as anti-feminist: Anderson (2014), Jaggar (2006), Projansky (2001), and Vint (2010). It would be very convenient for Sommers to be able to say I'm not an anti-feminist as a defense against any and all future allegations of anti-feminism. I don't think that's what WP:PUBLICFIGURE is meant to achieve. When Donald Trump says he is the "least racist person in the room", should we include that denial any time he goes on to do or say allegedly racist things?The other issue concerns self-published sources by the subject of the article, in this case a tweet replying to to Jessica Valenti (who is not cited or mentioned in the article). Valenti's tweet no longer exists, so we don't know what the specific "allegation" was, if any. In this case Sommers' contention that she is "not anti-feminist ... Just far more moderate" definitely seems self-serving in that her entire post-academic career (including book sales for Who Stole Feminism?) is based on her claiming to be a feminist while attacking feminism.[19][20][21] —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- The tweet specifically says "I'm not anti-feminist". You can argue around that, but just as with Cathy Young, the statement is unambiguous. And if Young's statement predates the specific examples added to the article, that just shows that she has been denying that allegation for a long time - not that she did not deny it. We can get more, though, if that will help you, but fundamentally you seem to be trying to say that she is not denying that she is anti-feminist, when it is clear that she is. If nothing else, she says that she is an equity feminist. Isn't that stating that she is feminist, not anti-feminist?
- It is not self-seving to make that statement. Self-serving is "I am the greatest philosophy", or "my theories are all sound". This is simply a statement of her position. If this was self-serving, then any simple denial of an allegation from any person would have to be regarded similarly. Just saying "I am not <insert allegation here>" is a simple statement of how one percieves one's stance. - Bilby (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Of course the tweet is self-serving, just like Trump saying "I am not a racist" is self-serving. Public figures often have a vested interest in denying accusations, whether or not the accusation is true. Especially when their reputation directly affects their career prospects. If we had an actual independent, reliable source for Sommers' denial, that would be fine, but so far no one has provided any.The article already states that
Sommers' positions and writing have been characterized ... as "equity feminism"
andShe has described herself as an equity feminist, equality feminist, and liberal feminist
. Extrapolating anything about anti-feminism from this would be original research.As I stated on the talk page, the word "antifeminist" shows up only a handful of times in the book Young is quoting from, and none are about Sommers herself. So there's no "denial" there that I can see. The policy in question specifically mentions allegations and incidents. Just saying "I am not an anti-feminist" as a way of deflecting any and all future criticism is not the same as responding to an actual allegation. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Of course the tweet is self-serving, just like Trump saying "I am not a racist" is self-serving. Public figures often have a vested interest in denying accusations, whether or not the accusation is true. Especially when their reputation directly affects their career prospects. If we had an actual independent, reliable source for Sommers' denial, that would be fine, but so far no one has provided any.The article already states that
- As I stated on the talk page, Cathy Young, the author of that book review, seems to be exaggerating. In the preface to Who Stole Feminism? that Young is quoting, Sommers doesn't say anything about being called anti-feminist. Young was a colleague of Sommers at the Women's Freedom Network, where they both held leadership positions.[18] So this is not really an independent source.Young's review was also published in 1994, several years before the cited sources describing Sommers as anti-feminist: Anderson (2014), Jaggar (2006), Projansky (2001), and Vint (2010). It would be very convenient for Sommers to be able to say I'm not an anti-feminist as a defense against any and all future allegations of anti-feminism. I don't think that's what WP:PUBLICFIGURE is meant to achieve. When Donald Trump says he is the "least racist person in the room", should we include that denial any time he goes on to do or say allegedly racist things?The other issue concerns self-published sources by the subject of the article, in this case a tweet replying to to Jessica Valenti (who is not cited or mentioned in the article). Valenti's tweet no longer exists, so we don't know what the specific "allegation" was, if any. In this case Sommers' contention that she is "not anti-feminist ... Just far more moderate" definitely seems self-serving in that her entire post-academic career (including book sales for Who Stole Feminism?) is based on her claiming to be a feminist while attacking feminism.[19][20][21] —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- The main secondary source reads:
I wish my page was put back. I think I am notable. I think I was merged with my husband because I am Hispanic American. I did half of the cricket research work with my husband. I was selected by Governor Cuomo in 1995 for my teaching. Although I lived in Canada, all my work was done in Buffalo, New York. I drove 40 minutes and over the border in the snow to Buffalo for many years and influenced science education in New York. Just because I am a Hispanic woman I shouldn't be erased. My page was up for many many years for teachers and kids to use during Hispanic Month in schools. But then I was erased. My page is still up in the Turkey wiki. I also got several e ails from people asking me to pay them to help me with my page. So I feel scammed by wikipedia. If i didn't pay they would remove me. I didn't pay so I was merged. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.173.100.208 (talk • contribs)
- Comment that the Articles for Deletion discussion that resulted in the merge is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elsa Salazar Cade. To OP: the people emailing asking for payment are attempting to scam you, and certainly do not speak for Wikipedia. WP:SCAM talks about some related problems. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 13:15, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- You didn't pay scammers, good for you, it wouldn't have stopped the deletion. Per WP:N, what are the 3-5 best sources you know that are at the same time WP:RS, independent of you and about you in some detail? This excludes your websites, blogs, wikis, online bookstores etc etc etc. An article about you in Nature would be excellent. Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing may be of interest to you. For the interested, Elsa Salazar Cade on tr-WP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
There is a discussion that may be of interest at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Prep_7_(nom).
- ... that Georgi Romanov had a shootout loss in the 2022–23 KHL season even though he was credited with playing zero minutes that season?[1]
Valereee (talk) 14:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble verifying the claim within the source provided. I checked the article, and it appears to be the only one supporting "zero minutes" and "no minutes." Could you please point out what part of the ref you've offered actually says this? JFHJr (㊟) 19:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
References
Overly Praising article of Mikaela Loach
I believe the wikipedia article on Mikaela Loach breaches the biography of living person policies throughout by failing to adhere to a dispassionate tone - for example, the article includes statements such as "But despite the risk of her actions, Loach finds motivation in the ability to speak up for those less privileged than herself. What she is sacrificing is nothing compared to what Indigenous people, globally, have been fighting for, losing their homes, their family, their lives."
The article also provides the subject's reasonaly contentious opinions as objective fact: "Aware of the intersection between the refugee crisis, the climate crisis, racism and the legacies of colonialism, Loach advocates for environmental justice, racial justice, sustainable fashion, and human rights issues such as white supremacy and maltreatment of migrants. She also seeks to make the climate movement more inclusive."
Finally, entire paragraphs of the article exist without references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c6:cf81:4f01:e8dd:a6d9:f611:e90d (talk • contribs) 20:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've done some cleanup, more is probably needed. Mdann52 (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Nice job, @Mdann52. I checked and all of the flowery puffery was added by a student editor for a class, so it isn't likely to be readded. Schazjmd (talk) 20:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)