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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
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Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

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Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
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Dicklyon

Apteva's topic ban clarified; Born2cycle warned; Dicklyon reminded. Gatoclass (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Dicklyon

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Apteva (talk) 07:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#All parties reminded

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

30 April 2013 Have you (twice)
29 April 2013 named editor, discussion directed at and about editor, not content
29 April 2013 "you're wrong"
29 April 2013 "you mis-parse it"
28 April 2013 you, your ... agenda
28 April 2013 you
27 April 2013 named editor, failure to assume good faith (I am of course he or she also)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

This is an editor who has been warned countless times not to personalize discussions, and insists on continuing.

Warned on 26 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 26 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 30 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 4 January 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 3 January 2013 by Born2cycle (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This creates a very toxic editing environment that does not encourage and welcome participation.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[1]

Discussion concerning Dicklyon

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dicklyon

The underlying problem is embodied in the person of Apteva, not in me pointing that out. Shouldn't we insist that he respect the wishes of the community in banning him from his continuing anti-MOS disruption such as this section blanking?

I ask here again, can his topic ban be rephrased to include the part that the closer omitted from what the community had overwhelmingly endorsed? See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive244#Continuing topic ban violations by Apteva Dicklyon (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal – clarify Apteva's topic ban by adding the bolded phrase or something like it:

Apteva is topic banned indefinitely from modifying or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation, broadly construed, including but not limited to at the manual of style and any requested move discussion, and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles.

As for Born2Cycle's comments below, note that he advertises his long-running campaign at User:Born2cycle#A goal: naming stability at Wikipedia and at User:Born2cycle/FAQ. When he ramps it up as he recently did here and continues to do here, am I not allowed to comment on that? It doesn't seem that his various warnings (including Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Born2cycle warned) and pledges (including User:Born2cycle/pledge) and sanctions (most recently Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive245#Continued tendentious editing by Born2cycle) over the last several years have had much moderating influence on this disruptive behavior of domination of move discussions. Dicklyon (talk) 18:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of personalization, I cracked up my wife with my quip at the Yosemite ranger station last summer, "Who can prevent forest fires?"

Statement by Ohconfucius

It really is too early for silly season, but this request is all rather surreal. It's very possible to take things too literally, and it looks very much like a good example. Apteva has carefully chosen diffs every instance of the word "you", then uses it to accuse Dick of making a "personal" argument in the sense prohibited by the Arbcom ruling. All I see is civil discussion. Such use of "you" was most often innocent, when Dick was trying to address an answer to or comment on what Apteva said. Methinks Apteva is a month too late with this. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 11:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, B2C, beware of the Boomerang. I find myself often questioning the utility of posting to Apteva's talk page. I don't know if he's feels that a particular user is bullying him, as it is obvious from his reaction to DL, or are they so burnt out that they have become generally ultra-sensitive to criticism: but this removal, within 6 minutes, may indicate a strong streak of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. That, plus the diffs supplied by Apteva in evidence against DL – particularly the first two – strongly suggests a serotonin top-up (i.e. a holiday in the sun) would be largely beneficial. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 18:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw this and this as other recent examples of an overwrought editor's objection. It's surreal.
Also, since Apteva already launched this AE against DL, this looks very much like harassment. Apteva, you really do need to take that well-earned holiday in the sun. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 01:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As to B2C, I was johnny come lately to the Kelly Yeomans suicide article, but I do and did object to B2C carry on his advocacy in that connection. I also made a complaint to an admin at about the time the RM was closed. Note that he is the top contributor to that discussion by a very long margin. He entered the discussion, and was there pushing his point of view against near-unanimous opposition right until it was closed. That indicated B2C still doesn't know when to stop, although before I got involved in that discussion, others had already complained to him on his talk page, to no avail. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 12:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Re these comments: a block isn't punitive if its objective is to prevent disruption in future. It seems obvious by now that B2C will only stop flogging the dead horse when either the stick or the carcass has been removed. Only the carcass has been dragged away. Note that I did not support a full topic ban on RMs for B2C when it was first proposed, but the recidivism now seems to warrant a broader ban. Another animal will appear before long and be beaten to a carcass, so I believe on that basis some pre-emptive block or formal topic ban would be desirable. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 11:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@TP: The experiment has failed all right. B2C the self-styled "expert" has been gaming the rules at every turn since you gave him a slap on the wrist and a virtually unenforceable ruling. He saw through that when he awarded you that "Nobel Peace Prize" that you were foolish enough to accept. He has blanked warnings (with a rather dismissive "keep count somewhere else") from fellow editors, whom he knows full well he can afford to ignore without incurring sanctions. Expertise is fine when offered as advice you can accept or refuse; B2C's "expertise" is of the rather "down your throat" sort that mny of us have said we can do without. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 16:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Melanie: You put your finger on the problem. In theory, B2C ought to know that receiving a pile of complaints on his talk would be a cue to moderate his behaviour. But no. It seems that in practice, B2C's there waiting for a Sysop to come along (whether independently or because of being seized) and draw that bright red line. He knows then and only then does he absolutely need to stop. He can keep advocating and flogging, and removing talk page comments with dismissive remarks like "keep count somewhere else" and "archiving" until then; and even when a Sysop comes, it's only to deliver a warning and not a block. So we have our work cut out. -- Ohc ^{digame / ¿que pasa?} 03:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

I suppose admins will have noticed at least some of the background which has involved enormous discussions in multiple areas. I ask that admins considering this case think of what would benefit the encylopedia, rather than basing a decision on whether "Have you read it?" is an abuse of a talk page. A tiny part of the background:

AE: Dicklyon reported by Apteva October 2012; result: withdrawn.
RfC/U: Apteva December 2012.
ANI January 2013; result: Apteva topic banned.
AE: Apteva reported by SarekOfVulcan January 2013; result: Apteva warned.

Johnuniq (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (SmokeyJoe)

The listed warnings are not less personal or confrontational than the listed violations. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that we have or want rules on the use of the second person singular pronoun, or the use of names. They are especially useful when thanking, for example. I don't feel that I know Apteva or Dicklyon very well, but have noticed, in reasonable debating, that Apteva comes across as tense, and Dicklyon comes across as direct, perhaps terse readable as snide. This combination is prone to inflame. I don't think blocks are useful in calming. The two could each be asked to not address or reference the other. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Apteva

This is a very serious issue that must be dealt with in an effective manner, and passing it off as otherwise is ludicrous. For example, while this editor is the worst offender that I have seen, should they be allowed this pattern of editing, it is like a cancer that spreads to other editors. I suggest a one month block (oddly, the editor in question says they are on a wikibreak), escalating to longer blocks if the pattern continues. Apteva (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To SmokeyJoe, the correct place to use you and an editor's name is on their talk page, not at an article or project talk page. All of Dicklyon's comments that are directed to me need to be solely and only on my talk page, not snide remarks at an RM discussion. Apteva (talk) 16:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To My very best wishes, the comments do a great deal of harm. There are two methods of decision making used, consensus and parliamentary, and neither permit directing comments to an individual. One requires directing comments to the group, the other to the moderator. There are no exceptions. Apteva (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Johnuniq, obviously the AE complaint in October 2012 should not have been withdrawn, as doing so may have reinforced the idea that there was nothing wrong with the violations that had occurred, and a specific remedy should have instead been suggested. Apteva (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To My very best wishes, it is not a problem if an editor says "I disagree with your argument because..." once, and it can be forgiven, but it is prudent to point it out to them on their talk page that it would have been better to say "the argument" instead of "your argument" so that it does not become a habit. When it does become a habit, it becomes a very serious problem. As to "it might be a good idea to politely tell someone that they are wrong and explain why (assuming they are capable of accepting someone else criticism and improving)." I have brought this up ad nauseum (and quite politely) on the editor in question's talk page. I need someone to make it more important to them, so that they will stop. Apteva (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This, by another editor, not Dicklyon, is the sort of post that I am objecting to. "I take it you haven't bothered to follow any of the links to BMI." Apteva (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Omnedon, incivility is a related, but different subject from personalization. I am only addressing personalization here. Apteva (talk) 03:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Omnedon, personalization if not as much about "talking directly to other editors" as it is talking about other editors, when the subject is not any editor, as it is on the talk page of an article or project page. See talk page guidelines. Apteva (talk) 16:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To ErikHaugen, absolutely. "since you understand it much better than I do, maybe you should take the next crack at it" excludes anyone else who might want to "take the next crack". That comment belongs only and solely on the editor in question's talk page, not on the article or project talk page. This is basic talk page protocol. Apteva (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Still more. Deleted with the edit summary "noise".[2] Dicklyon began by saying "I didn't want to mention you by name", which is a thought that does not need to be said, and while commendable, using "you" is no better, nor is any personalization. This edit[3] was at first deleted by another editor and then un-deleted. "can you please just stop it" belongs only and solely on the talk page of whichever editor, such as myself, that this was directed to. Apteva (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A narrowing of my topic ban would be a very good move. The current topic ban is totally political and totally absurd and intended solely to silence dissent. Topic ban everyone who does not agree with one side and then pretend there is consensus. The real topic ban that should have been proposed and the restrictions that should be imposed, is to not propose any page moves based on hyphens and dashes for one year, and remove the absurd restriction to one account, that is severely impacting my ability to improve the encyclopedia. Those are the two outcomes that I request with regard to myself. Apteva (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

B2C is well known for being wordy. That in itself is not a problem. All discussions can be closed regardless of how wordy they are. Apteva (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As to the truth that MOS does not apply to titles, the idea that it does was rejected as absurd when it was first proposed, and only implemented by topic banning those who disagreed. It was brought up at AT in January and rejected. Obviously the suggestion that it does needs to be removed from the MOS. Stifling dissent by topic banning is absurd and even juvenile. I have not to my knowledge said anything about the topic any time in the last month, and this is a non-issue that does not address any activity that needs to be curtailed. Apteva (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As to Dicklyon's last paragraph about Smokey the Bear, the two words that jumped out at me were "last summer". Was this going on last year, long before I started complaining, and became an in-joke at that time that they were using "you" too much, instead of correcting the problem? Apteva (talk) 14:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The allegation of "has been disruptive in discussions" is ancient history, and there has been no recent allegation of disruption that needs to be corrected. This is an issue that has already been corrected. The correct phrase is "was disruptive", and even that was disputed (and I offer as evidence that taking 500,000 bytes to decide is evidence that bringing the allegation was but that my conduct was not). There is absolutely no reason to add a sanction where none is needed.

Comment by Beyond My Ken

I suggest that reviewing admins considering sanctioning Apteva for filing an entirely frivolous enforcement request, and consider Dicyklon's suggestion that Apteva's topic ban be adjusted per the original community consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

One should note Dicklyon is the one who filed the RfC/U against Apteva that resulted in the community sanctions. Apteva filed a frivolous request regarding another editor back in January, which lead to a lot of ill will, after that editor was responsible for initiating the AE case about Apteva noted by Johnuniq above. The one who seems to be personalizing disputes the most is Apteva by filing these types of frivolous requests against various opponents.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Gato, the only topic ban issued since the case allowed the editor to reference the MOS in order to justify edits in articlespace. In other words, general discussion of the application of MOS were not allowed, but only that which is necessary to explain an edit the editor made to an article. However, I think you could consider just imposing a ban on filing AE requests. Apteva's AE requests have been rather POINTy and frivolous, demonstrating clear battleground behavior.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by My very best wishes

Perhaps I used to significantly stronger wording and accusations in another subject area, but the comments in the diffs look a little tense but more or less harmless. I do not see any reason for sanctions.

@Apteva. Yes, I partly agree: comment on content, not on the contributor. However, I do not really see a huge problem if someone tells: "I disagree with your argument because..." or "your edit is inconsistent with RS policy because...", instead of telling "this argument" and "this edit". Catching others on minor technicalities is not really a good idea. And remember, they could be right: perhaps this is your problem. In fact, it might be a good idea to politely tell someone that they are wrong and explain why (assuming they are capable of accepting someone else criticism and improving). But this is just a general idea; I only saw your diffs.My very best wishes (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I did not see this ANI post. Frankly, having so protracted disputes about minor technical issues is beyond imagination and disruptive. Just to clarify, I am not familiar with this case, but only looked at the diffs provided above and do not see them too disruptive per se, although the whole dispute is obviously disruptive. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

The majority of diffs presented in this RfE are not persuasive of any gross misconduct. However, there are three that appear to cross the line:

Clearly, there seems to be some sort of personalization of this dispute that should not have been personalized. Perhaps a reminder/warning to Dicklyon to not personalize disputes might be the best way of handling the situation. A short break (perhaps a month) might also be helpful. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Born2cycle

As a regular target and witness of Dicklyon's inappropriately personalized commentary on article/WP talk pages, I must concur with this statement of A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs), which I simply repeat:

However, there are three [diffs] that appear to cross the line... Perhaps a reminder/warning to Dicklyon to not personalize disputes might be the best way of handling the situation.

To Quest's list of three line crossings, I would also add:

Those references to me in terms of Dicklyon's opinion that what happened at Yogurt was me getting "my way" is WP:BATTLEGROUND language. It certainly does not reflect how I view these situations. That Dicklyon sees it that way (and not just with me) is a problem, and explains why he makes the inappropriately personalized comments on article/WP talk pages that he does. That needs to be addressed.

I think the following suggestion from Quest is going too far, though it would be appropriate if the problematic behavior continues after the warning: " A short break (perhaps a month) might also be helpful."

I strongly oppose any BOOMERANG result to the petitioner of this request, as the underlying complaint has reasonable basis, and BOOMERANGing would discourage others from reporting inappropriately personalized commentary on article/WP talk pages, and this would effectively sanction (in the approve sense) such behavior, not only from Dicklyon, but from others as well. --B2C 16:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC) series of edits to this statement done. --B2C 16:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Dicklyon

Dicklyon asks above: "am I not allowed to comment on that? ". Sure, if you think I or anyone else has been behaving inappropriately, bring it to our attention on our respective user talk pages. Not on article/WP talk pages. On article/WP talk pages, please refer only to substance, including arguments actually made, not what you imagine to be someone's motivations, whether or not you believe your opinion is backed up by what they say on their user page. By the way, if you think anything on my user page suggests anything inappropriate, please bring that up too... on my user talk page. Not anywhere else.

This is the key thing. Don't bring up negative stuff about specific WP users on article/WP talk pages. That's all. It reflects poorly on all of us. --B2C 20:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a specific suggestion: When commenting on article/WP talk pages, ignore the signature. That is, reply only with comments that would make sense and mean the same thing regardless of who posted the comment to which you are replying. Thus, if they say something helpful, replying with a "thank you" is fine, despite the personal "you" reference. But if you're going to make a comment that only makes sense because of other stuff that person has written elsewhere, it almost certainly is not appropriate to bring that up on that article/WP talk page, especially if the intent is to convey something negative.
For example, if someone says something which seems to contradict what they said or did elsewhere, question the user about the apparently contradictory behavior on that user's talk page, not on the article/WP talk page. --B2C 20:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also oppose Dicklyon's proposal to gag Apteva with respect to advocating against the applicability of MOS on article titles. That's a very controversial issue that has no consensus, and to seek muzzling others about that, especially when he is a proponent of one side and Apteva is a proponent of the other, is just another example of Dicklyon treating WP as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. --B2C 22:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon is at it again, making personalized comments about me on a policy talk page instead of addressing content [4]:
- "B2C has no problem with ambiguity in titles as long as there are not two articles fighting for the same title; he defines that to be unambiguous."***NOTE: (that's not true but that's beside the point)
- "He has been very consistent about that, as you can see from the history of the "precision" criterion, in which he has consistently worked to say that precision is bad and that titles should have just enough to distinguish the articles, not to point out their topics."
- "B2C has not advocated doing away with recognizability, but has several times to rephrase it, like in 2009 when it tried to say what precision was good for: "Good article titles are precise enough to indicate the topic unambiguously, but not more so." he changed it into a more negative and discouraging form "Good article titles are only as precise as necessary to indicate the name of the topic unambiguously."
- "That was one subtle step, but he keeps after it, like in his proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles/Archive_36#Proposal: clarifying PRECISION, which seeks to "clarify" by getting rid of any consideration for ambiguity in titles, by changing it to add the bolded part here: "Titles usually use names and terms that are precise (see below), but only as precise as necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously with respect to other Wikipedia titles." "
- "Clearly, B2C has no problem with ambiguity, only with article title collisions."
- "Looking at real cases where B2C pushes a narrow interpretation might; he typically does not have consensus on his side, but always pretends to."

I'm sorry, but what place do any of Dicklyon's opinions about me or anyone else have on any policy talk page? --B2C 04:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon is at again (yes again).

It's not a good scheme, but until we can turn back the clock on some of B2Cs changes to titling guidelines, it's the mess we're stuck with.

Why is it okay to personalize in the middle of an RM discussion like this[5], never mind that the ad hominem attack claim is entirely without basis. --B2C 22:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Violation?

It has been suggested that my behavior in RM discussions recently has been problematic in some manner. Part of my pledge is based on the assumption that I don't always recognize when my behavior is problematic, and so I pledge to pay heed when others tell me it is. So if my behavior has been problematic recently, I'm not aware of where or why, and nobody has told me. Regardless, I'm quite confident there is no problematic behavior occurring now. I only say this because more than one person has suggested there is a problem and actions should be taken.

The closer of the AN about me recognized all this and closed accordingly:

Meaning: An uninvolved admin may ban [B2C] from a particular discussion he is involved in on a case by case basis after a warning that can be enforced with a block between 24 hours and the duration of the discussion he is disruptive in. This includes discussions about the close of a move or article titles discussion anywhere on Wikipedia. [6]

For the record, I have not received any warnings from any administrator about any of my behavior anywhere, and I'm not aware of being disruptive in any discussions any where, certainly not any ongoing ones. To block or ban me in any way for behavior in some closed discussion in which I was not even warned seems purely punitive, inconsistent with the previous AN, and not conducive to improving anything on WP. Thank you. --B2C 00:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

People are citing statements made by editors involved in the discussion in question. These are not warnings from uninvolved administrators on my talk page, which is what I'm due, I believe, presuming no egregious behavior on my part, before any kind of penalty is imposed. As I've noted elsewhere, the outcome of the suicide RM discussion was obvious early. My involvement was one of curiosity pursued with those who chose to participate. If I had been told my behavior was problematic I would have stopped. --B2C 04:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon - Regardless of what I've been told many times by many people, what does that have to do with whether I deserve to be blocked or punished otherwise for specific behavior in a particular discussion without a warning from an uninvolved administrator as was stated in the AN as quoted above? --B2C 20:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Huw - you seem to misunderstand my point when you say, "His suggestion in response is that those expressing concern needn't participate in the discussion ". I'm saying those who think a discussion is "done", or think it has gone off on inappropriate tangents or whatever, but is still ongoing, don't need to participate. In fact, I can't imagine continuing in a discussion that I thought was done, just to complain that others are still continuing. If others want to continue, what is it to me? Why should I complain about them wanting to continue? I just don't get that. --B2C 20:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Omnedon

Having looked at all of the diffs, I see no statements that cross the line of incivility. I've been asked by editors if I had "even bothered to read such-and-such", and things of that nature; and I admit it was annoying to me. And yes, Dicklyon tends to be rather direct when he disagrees, perhaps pushing the envelope a bit. But requesting a block for these diffs seems extreme to say the least. The term "thin-skinned" comes to mind. I've seen far worse wrongly excused and even justified. As a side note, B2C should perhaps not be among those casting stones here, given his own past record here (mentioned above). Omnedon (talk) 00:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[addressed to Apteva]

I understand that the focus is personalization, but a request for a block simply for talking directly to other editors in a discussion seems even more incredible. I had assumed, incorrectly, there there was a civility component here. Omnedon (talk) 12:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting that you would direct me to read the talk page guidelines, given the nature of your complaint. And yes, it is a good practice to focus on content and not editors. But it seems to me that Dicklyon was talking to editors in most cases. Omnedon (talk) 12:56, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

B2C, you have been told many times by many people in many discussions over many months. You seem to choose not to hear or acknowledge. Omnedon (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, I can't remain silent on this. B2C's behavior hasn't changed one bit since the ANI. I am certainly not going to go canvass admins to get someone to warn him, as that would not be appropriate; but just waiting on someone to notice doesn't work either. The solution you offered did not work. And I do not believe that the consensus was as you describe. Omnedon (talk) 14:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, further -- how did he "follow it"? B2C did nothing different whatsoever. No uninvolved admins came in to deal with the situation, and B2C's disruptive behavior continued unabated. Omnedon (talk) 20:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Silly, arbitrary restraints? Where was it ever made clear that editors could go and ask for intervention? Haven't I already made it clear that I would have requested such help if I thought it was held to be acceptable? No one else did that either, and I would contend it's likely for the same reason that I didn't. In any case, B2C's behavior involves tendentious editing over a period of time -- so, on "day one"? Certainly in future, assistance will be sought; but even so, your "solution" still has the issues that have been identified by Huwmanbeing and Gatoclass. Omnedon (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You should have defined the situation more clearly; no one involved asked for such aid, though B2C was repeatedly asked to stop by several editors. Your sarcasm is unnecessary. As it happens I have never had to deal with an editor that was under sanctions -- even ones as weak and unhelpful as the one you imposed -- against the consensus of the discussion, I might add, though you claim otherwise. Omnedon (talk) 23:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So basically you support B2C's ability to ignore the requests of other editors to moderate himself, until an admin becomes involved, simply because you require that. That's precisely what happened in the referenced discussion. And in fact someone did request assistance of Diannaa, except that the discussion was closed, and nothing was done. To be clear -- as has been stated by others, I'm sure you had the best of intentions. But I am not the only one who sees it as ineffective. Since I am merely a lowly editor, others will clearly need to deal with this. Omnedon (talk) 23:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony1

This is a waste of everyone's time. Tony (talk) 03:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ErikHaugen

These diffs don't demonstrate anything that violates the arbcom remedy. Apteva seems to think that using the word "you" is personalizing; consider this diff supplied as evidence, where DL uses the phrase "you" when suggesting to another user that he go ahead with his proposal: "That all sounds good, but since you understand it much better than I do, maybe you should take the next crack at it." If Apteva thinks this is an example of personalizing disputes, or even of problematic behavior, then perhaps Apteva should not be bringing AE requests. I think sanctions for frivolous or vexatious requests might be an overreaction, but I think at least a warning is in order, as this does have the appearance of a vendetta and is at least a waste of everyone's time.

DL gives Apteva several warnings in the other diffs supplied. I don't think this is in itself necessarily a problem either; others have commented that that should only happen on user talk pages or AN or here or whatever, but this isn't personalizing the dispute, so the arbcom remedy isn't relevant.

Apteva: Do you stand by this diff? Do you really think this is evidence of problematic behavior, in any way? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not exclude anyone, and no, it does not belong on the user's talk page. That is two editors discussing how to edit an article, one making a request of another, in a collegial and constructive manner. Please don't waste AE's time with this kind of thing again. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 08:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huwmanbeing

I've looked at the diffs that Apteva provided; though a few indicate annoyance, I'm afraid I don't see behavior that rises to a level that requires sanction; in at least a couple of cases I confess I can't even ascertain what inappropriate personalization or incivility the diff is meant to indicate (unless simply using the second-person pronoun is considered a violation, which would seem a bit odd).

The corrective actions described by Gatoclass sound appropriate as regards Apteva and Born2cycle. In particular, a reasonably short ban followed by "escalating bans for future breaches" would I think help interrupt what's clearly been a long-running cycle without being unnecessarily severe. ╠╣uw [talk] 01:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One extra point: regarding Born2cycle's statement above that no one gave him any indication that his behaviors were problematic: [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], etc.

His suggestion in response is that those expressing concern needn't participate in the discussion [13] (a suggestion he's previously made elsewhere [14]) ╠╣uw [talk] 02:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis: You claim that your remedy hasn't been tried, but we've actually already had at least one good test case for it. A recent RM I participated in became dominated by B2C to the point that various editors were clearly expressing their concerns about the disruption – concerns that did not deter B2C. During the course of the RM, no uninvolved admins intervened in the way your remedy stipulated.

You noted yourself in the closing of the previous ANI that having admins police B2C would be a "huge burden"; evidence now suggests that in practice (and not unexpectedly) it simply doesn't happen. Further, even if the remedy would/could be consistently applied, it's so constrained (at worst barring B2C from further participation in one particular discussion that he's already disrupted to the point of needing intervention) that it's hard to see how it could be an effective deterrent even in principle. It needs to be reconsidered. ╠╣uw [talk] 18:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that existing sanction is stated to be "revisited and reverted" if concerns are raised. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I think everyone's simply seeking what they feel to be the most effective solution to some long-standing problems. TParis, if contrary to your summation you do not wish to allow any reconsideration, that's fine; however, let's not criticize those who merely have concerns/questions, or who ask for the reconsideration you offered. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (In ictu oculi)

After a review of the diffs offered this request appears to be verging on frivolous. "So we're done. Or fix it way Huwmanbeing suggests, even though you mis-parse it. " is a example of personalization? What if it was mis-parsed, how then does someone note something is mis-parsed without saying it? This does not deserve any result action. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, which some may not consider relevant, but I personally consider is Dicklyon has a 59.29% article contribution vs 3.29% WikipediaTalk contribution, a very healthy balance in contributing to article space rather than making/changing rules for others to follow. There are one or two frequent WikipediaTalk (inc MOS) contributors who barely contribute to article space. There's something not very balanced in that kind of diet. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Glrx

This filing seems to be another sad episode in a long running dispute. I've come across bits and pieces in the past, and have looked at the material above and comments by Gatoclass below.

I'm not a MOS warrior, I don't go around enforcing MOS, but I try to follow the endash rules, I have corrected some edits to follow MOS (I usually let the 'bots do it), and I have renamed some articles to use MOS-preferred punctuation. My editing has crossed paths with Dicklyon on several electronics articles as recently as today with Talk:Cat's-whisker detector. In those technical articles, I've been impressed with Dicklyon's research, argument, and clarity. I have not had similar interactions with Apteva or Born2Cycle. Generally, I stay far away from MOS debate.

I see no reason to sanction Dicklyon here. I do not see the complaints as being significant. Some complaints were about Dicklyon maintaining his own talk page (the "noise" edit comment while deleting some Apteva posts), and some complaints seem to seek a gag order (only discuss an editor's past history on his talk page). Ad hominem arguments should be avoided, but comments that attempt to accurately characterize an editor's global position seem fair game; unfortunately they can also come across as dismissive. Dicklyon may not be 100% civil, but I don't see A Quest for Knowledge's examples as worthy of sanctions. I'm not happy with Dicklyon's "Only YOU can prevent forest fires" comment, but otherwise his comments here are reasonable. I'd like Dicklyon to be a bit more diplomatic when engaging difficult editors, but that should not mean he cannot demand contrary sources.

Gatoclass proposes a one month topic ban on page move discussions for B2C. There was an earlier discussion (B2C needs to display higher tolerance of other editors) that TP closed. That discussion had support for OPTION A (complete ban on page move discussions) and OPTION B (ban that limits interaction on page move discussions); many supported B first and then A if B fails to work. TP's remedy ignored A and B and laid out a case-by-case warning with modest block for subsequent misbehavior in that case; TP was also concerned about bias in the commenters. My problem with TP's remedy is that it is not a restriction until somebody complains to an admin, so there's no penalty for B2C testing the limits. Gatoclass is proposing OPTION A with an expiration in one month. Gatoclass also worries that the proposed topic ban on page moves may not be general enough, but I don't see a pressing need to tailor something more general. I'd point to B2C's earlier promise about better behavior and ask him to follow it. I hope there is no more trouble down the road, but if there is, it can be addressed then. However, I think there was more support for an indeterminate OPTION B: B2C may comment once (or twice) on page move discussions. That seems the better option; it does not unduly restrict B2C's participation in page moves but would avoid extended debate; it would not have the fuzziness of debate until there's an objection.

I'm clueless about what to do with Apteva. Apteva is sensitive about several issues, but that sensitivity is not something than can be remedied here. Some of that sensitivity can be understood. Taking action on that sensitivity is the thing that needs to be curtailed. Apteva may not like something, but that does not mean Apteva should act on it. For example, I wish this current enforcement action did not happen. Apteva's request for a one month block on Dicklyon is not narrowly tailored for the perceived conduct nor is it of appropriate length. In contrast, Dicklyon's suggestion of amending the January topic ban is narrowly tailored (but goes beyond the just punctuation discussion). I'm not sure I'd include all of MOS; the extension might include just capitalization; there was a diff about capitalization. However, I have an incomplete view of Apteva editing. Gatoclass's diffs below are a mixed bag for me. The capitalization argument is a bit pointy, but the Suicide-of-X comments do not seem too far out of line (I'm am mystified why Suicide-of-X or Al Capone should be addressed at BLP). Consequently, I do not know what to do. Glrx (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

FYI about B2C: there were several people who cautioned him on his talk page or were considering reporting him for reverting to his old editing habits at the Suicide of Kelly Youmans discussion. Among other things, he twice characterized opinions he didn't agree with as "ridiculous"; he twice hid comments by others (I restored the second set); and he asked the same question seven times, five of them in boldface, even though the question had been directly responded to at least three times (by Joe Decker, tryptofish, and myself). Sorry, I am traveling and posting via iPhone so cannot post diffs. MelanieN (talk) 03:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To TP: one thing I never understood about your closure (which I praised as appropriately moderate) was how are we supposed to find an uninvolved admin to report a problem to? I at first thought it should be you, but you said no. Do we cherry pick an admin that we are familiar with? Do we pick a name at random from category:administrators? Do we post at AN asking for someone? I'm not being argumentative, I really didn't and don't know how to proceed. MelanieN (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think TP is correct that it would be unfair to impose a ban on B2C at this point, since B2C felt he was operating under the terms of TP's closure of the previous AN. On the other hand, it's clear that B2C was the only one who understood those terms. So he felt free to ignore suggestions and cautions from everyone who wasn't an "uninvolved administrator", while continuing his problematic editing unhindered for a week. For the rest of us, the procedure turned out to be unexpectedly awkward in practice. In effect, those who interact with B2C are made responsible for enforcing the sanctions. Every time he starts getting tendentious we have to run and find an admin (presumably a different admin each time), who then has to spend half an hour getting up to speed on the situation. And if a given person seeks help regarding B2C more than once or twice, they could be accused of harrassing him. That's why I did not want to report this latest case, blatant as it was - because I was the one who took him to AN last time. This was the first test of TP's closure (or at least the first I am aware of; I don't follow B2C around to see what he is doing) and it definitely exposed some weaknesses in the system. --MelanieN (talk) 03:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kumioko

That's nothing more than using a legalese justification to do the same thing but justifying it in a different way. Either way, as Dianna points out, at this point its still a waste of time. Its punitive rather than preventative plain and simple. Kumioko (talk) 10:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since someone took it upon then selves to move my comments up here and isolate them from the discussion below so my comments now make no sense I need to clarify. The above comments were in relation to the comments by Dianna below. But in reference to the case in general sanctions or a ban at this point is a waste of the community's time. The problem has already been resolved and closed. No further action at this point is necessary and this ongoing case is merely a drag on the limited resources of the community. I would also add that the discussion below that seems to indicate an increase in the Arbcom's scope to encompass the MOS needs to be vetted to a larger audience and not buried in another discussion to increase the Arbcoms's scope through "common law" scope creep. Kumioko (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh now I see what happened, here. Kumioko (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moving this from below because I am not an admin (and there is no us and them mentality?) and this makes the discussion far more complicated and easier to ignore comments. Gatoclass, that is almost exactly what should happen. There should be a couple warnings and then escalating blocks as appropriate. If that doesn't work, then we can move to a sanction or topic ban, not before. We need to let the process be the process and not throw it out the window whenever we choose. Kumioko (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Dicklyon

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Some of Dicklyon's comments are less than ideal, but I don't think them serious enough to warrant a sanction, IMO they might at most merit a reminder. On the other hand, I can to some extent sympathize with his exasperation, having read some of the discussion at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, where Born2cycle's repeated advocacy of a page move request that was rejected by a five to one majority might itself be considered disruptive. As for the proposal to amend Apteva's topic ban, I would have to look at that in more detail before expressing an opinion. Gatoclass (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having taken a look through some of the earlier discussions (it's hardly possible to read them all since there are so many) it seems to me there is a solid case to be made for a sanction against Born2cycle for the continuation of his well documented, disruptive argumentativeness[15][16][17][18] at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, and for a broadening of the existing sanction against Apteva. What I'm struggling to decide on is the scope of such sanctions. For Born2cycle, I am inclined to propose a one-month topic ban on all page move discussions, with escalating bans for future breaches, but I'm not sure if a ban on page move discussions alone will be sufficiently broad. For Apteva, I am seeing disturbing parallels in some of his recent edits[19][20] with the types of arguments, and the intransigence, that got him community banned from certain types of MOS-related punctuation discussions,[21] indicating that a broader ban may be necessary, but where does one draw the line? MOS relates in one way or another to almost every aspect of editing, so an undifferentiated ban may be impractical, but the current ban is beginning to look too narrow. I am still considering these issues, but in the meantime I would appreciate some input from other users on the same. Gatoclass (talk) 08:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since Seraphimblade imposed the original topic ban on Apteva, I have asked for his opinion on its scope. He seems not to be very active lately however, and we can't keep this request open indefinitely, so if he hasn't replied in the next couple of days I will move forward on this request regardless. Gatoclass (talk) 15:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seraphimblade has not been active in some time, but I think his comment here is relevant to the current proceedings. Apteva apparently believes that the RfC and sanctions already imposed upon him or her are some sort of mistake—I've seen no suggestion at all that Apteva takes any kind of responsibility for problems others have with his/her approach to discussions. When a topic ban is imposed, the expectation is that the person disengage entirely from the problematic area. It's kind of a last resort in the hopes that a site ban is not needed. It is not an invitation to wikilawyer around the topic area in the way that Apteva has continued to do. The diffs noted by Dicklyon and by Gatoclass show that the same kinds of problem persist, and therefore that a broader topic ban at minimum is needed. One option is the one proposed by Dicklyon; another is to add an additional ban, something along the lines of: "Apteva is indefinitely prohibited from engaging in discussions and edits relating to the Manual of Style or policy about article titles" (as was imposed upon PManderson in the case cited). I broadly agree with Gatoclass's comments, not just about Apteva but about Dicklyon and Born2cycle as well. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I too see little evidence that Apteva has conceded an issue with his past behaviour, indeed he appears to be every bit as insistent on his correctness as before. However, he has indicated on my talk page that he no longer "keep[s] repeating myself as I once did",[22] which sounds like a step forward. Nor has a great deal of evidence been presented of recent misconduct on Apteva's part, or of a wider MOS problem. So although I too have considered a broad MOS ban, I'm not sure it would be necessary at this point; I'm inclined to think that a broadening of the topic ban to include the clause proposed by Dicklyon might be sufficient at this stage. If that changes, a broader ban can always be imposed at a later date. Gatoclass (talk) 08:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Apteva appears somewhat persistent/repetitive in this AE request, although on the whole there does seem to be a step forward as you note. Certainly a less broad topic ban would be preferable if it can achieve the results. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 12:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am in the process of summarizing the evidence presented above and will post it along with my conclusions shortly. Gatoclass (talk) 06:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, to summarize:

Born2cycle made 69 comments over the course of ten days at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans - almost as many comments as the next three contributors combined.[23] In addition to reopening a recently closed RM discussion (which I think he was entitled to do in the circumstances) he also initiated three separate discussion sub-threads and participated heavily in a fourth; this in a discussion where the consensus was clearly and overwhelmingly against his POV. Born2cycle states in his evidence regarding that discussion that If I had been told my behavior was problematic I would have stopped, but several users expressed frustration, some on multiple occasions, with his tactics (sample: [24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]) and B2c not only did not stop, he was still proposing to continue the discussion a few hours before it was closed.[33] In light of his previous warnings and pledges, I therefore propose to ban Born2cycle for one month from RM-related discussions.
Due to concerns raised above and in earlier discussions that Apteva is breaching their ban by other means, I propose to clarify the scope of the ban by broadening it in line with the proposal outlined in earlier discussions, namely to add the clause and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles. Also, I think Apteva is entitled to some clarity regarding the circumstances by which he can appeal the original ban. I therefore propose that they be permitted to appeal the ban six months from the date it was imposed, or 6 July, and every six months thereafter. Any such appeal should I think be lodged at WP:AN rather than here at AE since the original ban was imposed by the community; Apteva is of course entitled to appeal the broadening of the ban proposed here (assuming it is implemented) in accordance with normal AE practice.
Regarding the charges against Dicklyon, I think it should be clarified that merely employing the words "you" and "your argument" etc do not constitute meaningful "comment on contributor" and are not actionable here; nor are occasional references to a user's previous history of discussion so long as such referrals are relevant to the discussion at hand and not excessive, disruptive, or objectionable in other ways. While some of Dicklyon's comments have clearly had an undertone of hostility, there has been a degree of provocation in the past which mitigates those responses to a degree. I think a certain degree of robustness in discussion must be accepted or we will end up encouraging WP:GAMING of the relevant policies. I therefore propose to post a reminder rather than warning to Dicklyon on this occasion.

In accordance with my usual practice, I will leave these proposals on the table for 24 hours, after which I will implement them if there have been no objections from uninvolved admins. Gatoclass (talk) 08:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the proposed one-month topic ban on User:Born2cycle. This is far beyond the scope of the remedy devised by User:TParis on the 20th of February, which read, in part, "An uninvolved admin may ban [B2C] from a particular discussion he is involved in on a case by case basis after a warning that can be enforced with a block between 24 hours and the duration of the discussion he is disruptive in. This includes discussions about the close of a move or article titles discussion anywhere on Wikipedia". A user came to my talk page while the talk page discussion was in the process of being closed, and I declined to take any action against B2C at that time, because by the time I arrived at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans the discussion had been closed for 15 minutes and the remedy seemed punitive even at that point. So a one-month topic ban issued two weeks after the fact makes no sense to me. -- Dianna (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS now comes under the purview of Arbcom discretionary sanctions, this is a new case and we are under no obligation here to endorse or follow earlier remedies imposed at other venues. I did not follow TParis' sanction proposal because I consider it to be ineffective, the object should be to get B2c to self-regulate his behaviour in the first place, not to leave it to admins and other users to regulate it for him. Additionally, TParis' remedy was unilateral and did not reflect the consensus expressed at the actual AN/I discussion which was 20 in favour of option A/B versus 5 for some other solution. Option A was for the imposition of topic bans, option B was for a restriction on the number of posts made by B2c in any page move discussion, and as a first choice option A received 11 !votes versus 9 for option B. In short, the sanction I have proposed reflects the majority view at the AN/I discussion (as well as that at a previous discussion) so I believe it has the clear endorsement of the community which cannot be said for TParis' novel remedy.

Additionally, I cannot agree that a sanction imposed at this point would be "punitive" because the discussion has already been closed; closure of a discussion has no bearing on whether or not the conduct of involved users is sanctionable. I might add that I don't do "punitive"; sanctions in my view are remedial: they are a means of encouraging disruptive users to modify their behaviour and/or removing disruptive influences for the benefit of the community at large. I think it's clear in this instance that Born2cycle is still not getting the message and that a remedial sanction is therefore an appropriate next step. Gatoclass (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't examined the case and can't therefore comment on most proposed sanctions, but at first glance I find a sanction like "[banned] from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles" inadvisable because it is not content-neutral. The arbitration process, and admins generally, have no authority over content issues, including over the question as to how we apply the MOS to content. We must therefore not enact sanctions that ban a user from voicing a particular opinion. But, if their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient, we can ban them from discussing the topic altogether, irrespective of the opinions they put forward. Sandstein 06:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[I]f their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient - yes I think that's the point here. We are not taking a stand on the content issue; the proposed sanction is merely a reflection of the community's view that this particular user has been disruptive in discussions relating to that content issue. Gatoclass (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass, your proposal did not have consensus at the previous ANI discussion at all. If you read the comments, and not the !votes, you'll see that there was a strong consensus that B2C is an expert on the subject and a topic ban would harm Wikipedia by depriving us of his expertise. I'd suggest that you give the 'novel remedy' a try before casting it off as ineffective. Has any admin warned B2C to not participate in a discussion and he has ignored that warning? Can it be demonstrated? If not, then why are we even calling it a failure. It hasn't failed, ya'all have.--v/r - T P 13:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, the issue I have with your remedy is that the only effective check on B2c's disruption is a warning from an administrator for each and every discussion in which he becomes disruptive, followed by a brief block if he fails to heed the warning. This is not a disincentive to excessive posting at all, because the user in question can effectively post as frequently as he likes in any given discussion until receiving a warning from an administrator, after which he can repeat the same in the next discussion, and the next after that, and so on, without ever having to modify his behaviour or risk an actual sanction. Gatoclass (talk) 14:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You dont have to explain my own idea to me, I already know you dont comprehend it. But dont sanction a guy because he followed it and all others failed to use it to their advantage. The idea gives the community a great tool and because you like traditional solutions you're tossing this one out before you tried it and punishing someone for not following your opinion of how he should have been topic banned in that discussion despite following the direction he was given. Not his fault that no one used the sanction.--v/r - T P 18:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Huwmanbeing & Omnedon both: Did anyone ask an uninvolved admin during the course of any of these discussions? I've seen only a single example and it was brought up after the RM closed. Are there others I am unaware of where someone has brought it to the attention of an uninvolved admin during the week long process? I never said anyone had to bear B2C's behaviors to exhaustion, anyone could ask for admin attention on day 1 if it became an issue. If the answer is no, then you've not even tried it. You've assumed the "uninvolved admins" gnome around or magically read your minds through the interwebs and know where our attention is needed. Petitioning for uninvolved admins to take uninvolved admin actions is not canvassing. You're not stacking votes or slanting discussions by doing it, you're enforcing behavioral guidelines. Don't place silly arbitrary constraints on yourself and then blame someone else (me) because you refused to give the idea a try.--v/r - T P 21:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon: Who in the world ever told you that you couldn't? I shouldn't have to disprove a nonexistant. Do I have to tell you that there is no rule against putting purple food coloring in your jello as well? You placed an arbitrary self-imposed rule on yourself against contacting an uninvolved administrator and it was silly at that. No one else placed that restriction on you. So yes, it is a silly arbitrary constraint that holds no weight. At any time, you are allowed to ask an administrator to help you with administrative tasks without violating WP:CANVASS. Beware of not violating WP:FORUMSHOP though.--v/r - T P 22:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon: It's not my responsibility to summarize every Wikipedia policy and guideline and how it pertains to a particular sanction. Again, nothing was ever stopping you from asking for an uninvolved administrator except for you. So until you actually try the sanction, I'm going to write your objections off as prejudicial. Dislike it all you want, but the facts are the facts: you've yet to even try it and you can't prove it wouldn't work if given a shot. Try it once or twice and if it doesn't work, I'll be much more amiable to trying something harsher and more traditional like standard topic bans or worse.--v/r - T P 23:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help that no one thought to raise the issue to an uninvolved admin until after it was closed. I never said you had to wait 5, 6, or even 7 days. Raise it to an admin after two hours for all I care. The instructions were clear enough. I've even now made them even clearer. I'm sure you all have the best of intentions as well, but you're also involved with B2C and clearly not his biggest fan so unless Gatoclass wants to take unilateral action, using AE authority to 'trump' another admin, then that's his call and I'd shake my head and wash my hands of it. But as another uninvolved admin, I fail to see effort made by B2C's opponents to actually use the tool I crafted for them. So I'm not sure why you're even still arguing when the point still stands that it hasn't been tried. What are you trying to prove still? You keep saying it's ineffective and my question is: when has it been tried?--v/r - T P 00:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that that statement was three months ago and you have had ample opportunity to use it and have not. The issue was visited here, you're late to the party. I'm not going to revert a close that is 3 months old. That'd be like pulling the rug out from under B2C so you can slap a harsher sanction on him ex post facto and then act on it as if he's been under this harsher sanction all along. You're trying to shift responsibility to him for your lack of attention to detail on the sanction. I don't play by those shady tactics. You want a sanction, get consensus here. But acknowledge the fact that you failed to use the tool given to you, and not that the tool itself failed, and then proceed to change it on honest terms.--v/r - T P 12:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MelanieN: It was suggested that I remain uninvolved for just these situations. All of the ideas you presented for finding an admin are good. I think a polite talk page message to one you are familiar with, or one whom B2C is familiar with, is the best course. Also, admins who participate in dispute resolution and here at arbitration enforcement are also a good bet; they have the skills for dealing with these sorts of conflicts. If you ask an admin to get involved, the worst they can say is "No".--v/r - T P 20:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Huwmanbeing: Did you actually read my comments to you? Changing the verdict now after three months is dishonest and unethical. The comment about revisiting the matter was under the assumption 'within a reasonable time limit' is common sense.--v/r - T P 22:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As TParis notes, I am entitled to close this request with a unilateral topic ban for Born2cycle under authority of discretionary sanctions, but am reluctant to do so when lacking a majority in favour in this section. Also, I think Melanie makes a worthwhile point that Born2cycle believed per TParis' remedy that he was permitted to continue posting until warned by an administrator - a conclusion that is probably not entirely indefensible, though I still think he should have taken heed of the complaints from other users much earlier. In light of these circumstances, however, I am going to downgrade the remedy for Born2cycle from a topic ban to a warning on this occasion. Born2cycle must understand from this point however that he has already had the requisite warning for administrative action under ARBCOM discretionary sanctions, and that any uninvolved administrator, acting unilaterally under authority of those sanctions or as a result of an AE request, may in future sanction him in any manner deemed appropriate for conduct deemed disruptive at WP:MOS- or WP:TITLE-related discussions or pages without further warning. Gatoclass (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Declined since there is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban with Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom by making a request for clarification. EdJohnston (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: One-way interaction ban with User:Mathsci imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive125#Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [34]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Over the past six and a half months or so I have complied with this restriction despite my objections to the sanction in general and its one-way nature in particular. This has not been without challenge as several times I have been involved in discussions where Mathsci was involved, often after I became involved. Even when he has responded to something I have said I have avoided addressing, commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci in any fashion. As it stands, not being able to discuss matters with him has hampered my ability to participate in certain processes. In particular, although Mathsci does not edit articles or talk pages explicitly concerning R&I, he continues to involve himself in its affairs through project and userspace. Occasionally, this means I am in a situation where a matter concerns my editing activity in that topic area, but my ability to address the matter is hampered by Mathsci's ability to comment and my inability to respond. I thus ask for the restriction to be lifted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Doncram case is an example of one of my points above. Mathsci's first comment in the case was to dispute one of my proposed findings. He then spent much of the case disputing my arguments. As a result, my ability to defend my statements was hampered because responding to his comments would have been a violation of my interaction ban. Some of the evidence he presented actually supported my position, but I was not able to point that out given the restriction.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only talk I had of arbitration with Akuri consisted of me encouraging him not to pursue it and saying that, if my appeal failed, I would probably pursue it myself. Basically, I was saying that if an AE appeal failed that I would likely pursue an appeal to ArbCom.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Fozzie, MastCell's comments about "wiki-litigation" are misguided and shouldn't be given much weight. As it concerns R&I, I believe I have filed exactly three requests at noticeboards over the past year, not including this appeal, with each regarding separate issues. The "un-needed" part is purely subjective as said requests did touch on legitimate and substantive concerns that I and other editors had regarding a situation. Only one of those requests, the earliest one, directly concerned Mathsci. Generally, I take great care to only suggest taking action when I feel it is needed and prior to the interaction ban the worse thing I suggested for Mathsci is an admonishment. Despite what some say there is no imminent risk of me filing some massive request for action against Mathsci should the restriction be lifted. As long as he leaves me alone, or at least doesn't do anything extreme, I envision no reason why I would suggest any action against him. This has always been the case, including prior to the interaction ban.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@KC, please move your comment out of the uninvolved administrator section. You are far from uninvolved regarding me or the R&I topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As far as Tim's request, there are numerous instances of varying complexity, but some are straight-forward. On one occasion I commented in an ANI discussion regarding another editor and in response to what one editor said to me Mathsci made this remark accusing me of editing from a "race realist" perspective, with that phrase having an easter egg link to the article on scientific racism. Another incident involved me removing a personal attack made by a proxy IP and Mathsci immediately restoring it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how the tone of two remarks to two people who are not Mathsci is relevant to my interaction ban with Mathsci. For the sake of convenience here is Mathsci's original statement.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 09:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mathsci, WO is WO and Wikipedia is Wikipedia. Two separate sites. I would say that the notion I said anything seriously problematic about you there is not very good and you were the one who bumped that thread in the first place after ten days of inactivity. You also seem more than happy to talk to me there.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Timotheus Canens

I see no compelling reason to lift the restriction, and in fact have little doubt that the disruptive acrimonious interactions would recur if it were lifted. I do not regard the claim regarding the Doncram case, which is the only concrete example TDA cited, to be compelling; even assuming for the sake of argument that TDA could not have amplified their views on the nature of Orlady's interactions with Doncram without violating the interaction ban (a rather doubtful proposition), they could have easily submitted a rebuttal of Mathsci's comments to the Committee via email if they wanted to.

As to the one-way nature of the interaction ban, I think it would be a spectacularly bad idea to make it two-way six months after the original restriction was imposed without actual, concrete evidence that the one-way ban is not working. I'm open to reconsidering if there's some hard evidence of Mathsci inappropriately taking advantage of the one-way nature of interaction ban. Finding such evidence if there's actual misconduct shouldn't be hard; it's been six months. T. Canens (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mathsci

TrevelyanL85A2 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Zeromus1 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Akuri (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

I have completely modified my statement in the light of very recent events. I apologize to those that have referred to my previous presentation which is still accessible in the page history.

The main reason that The Devil's Advocate's (TDA) interaction ban should not be dropped is his recent championing of Akuri, repeating his championing of TrevelyanL85A2 (indefinitely blocked account, proxy-editing for Captain Occam) and Zeromus1 (a sockpuppet of the banned user Ferahgo the Assassin, Captain Occam's girlfriend). Akuri has now been blocked indefinitely by NuclearWarfare. TDA was completely aware that Akuri had out of the blue, with no prior knowledge of me, started making unprovoked personal attacks on me on WP:ANI. Nevertheless TDA lobbied for Akuri to be allowed to continue to edit and continued to have a close association with him. That indicates that TDA exercised extremely poor judgement. He has acted as an apologist for some of the most disruptive users connected with WP:ARBR&I. When TDA manages to have some prolonged period away from WP:ARBR&I editors that are blatantly engaged in continuing the campaigns of site-banned users, then his interaction ban should be reconsidered. The ban does not affect his normal editing in any way and will help prevent future repetition of this kind of gross misjudgement. His support for Akuri is undiminished even after NuclearWarfare's block.[35] If TDA's priority is still to wikilawyer about a disruption-only account such as Akuri's, then his conduct has not reformed and all the assurances he has given above are worthless. Mathsci (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The 2 edits mentioned by TDA concern Apostle12 (NYB's proposed topic-ban) and Russavia (editing under the influence). There was also an enforcement request here by Russavia concerning Volunteer Marek. Both TDA and I made statements. TDA reverted an administrative action of Sandstein.[36]with the edit summary rmv distracting and unnecessary notices. I restored Sandstein's edits.[37] TDA called Sandstein an "officious little jerk" and a "petty tyrant" when warned not to reverse administrative actions.[38] He was later warned about making personal attacks by KillerChihuahua, which he removed [39] with the edit summary rmv petty nonsense. By contrast he was polite to Akuri while advising him on a strategy for requesting arbitration, some of it apparently concerning me.[40][41][42][43][44][45][46] Mathsci (talk) 06:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Over on the site wikipediocracy, TDA has made comments which undermine his assurances here. [47] The Devil's Advocate has argued here that his conduct has reformed. Nothing about his present conduct, including his continued support for the blocked user Akuri, with an agenda indistinguishable from that of the site-banned user Captain Occam, suggest that much has changed since October 2012. Mathsci (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WO has some relevance for WP:ARBR&I, because the Captain Occam campaign on WP is actively promoted from there. Captain Occam used WO for passing "evidence" about me to Cla68 that was submitted on WP in December 2012. That posting was considered relevant by arbcom. Mathsci (talk) 09:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The arbitration committee has already spent large amounts of time discussing the interaction bans, which included at one point discussing an interaction ban with an indefinitely blocked sockpuppet of a site-banned user (Ferahgo the Assassin). SirFozzie was one the main arbitrators to make general statements about one-way bans which were not supported by any evidence. At the moment, the most problematic thing that has happened was solved by blocking Akuri, whose unblock request was denied by AGK. Salvio has explained, without being specific, that the account might possibly be linked to users banned under WP:ARBR&I. Given the recent edits, it is becoming increasingly likely that Akuri is a sockpuppet of the site-banned editor Captain Occam. Meanwhile TDA continues supporting Akuri's requests to be unblocked. [48][49] In November he continued to communicate with Zeromus1/Ferahgo, quizzing the basis her block, after the block had become an arbcom block.[50][51][52] Arbitrators could theoretically discuss whether collaborating with sockpuppets or meatpuppets of site-banned users with an attack-only agenda is a good thing or not. Only one or two users have done so and they are amongst those with interaction bans. Moreover arbitrators/checkusers have proceeded directly to perform their own investigations and blocks of problematic editors (Zeromus1, Mors Martell, Akuri), avoiding time-consuming cases. Arbitrators should only be asked to look at something if there is a problem and at the moment there isn't. Mathsci (talk) 03:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Akuri

I don't know if I am involved or not. I was not intending to comment here, but now that Mathsci has brought me up I should clarify something about my comment to D. Lazard.

Regarding the possibility of requesting arbitration about Mathsci, here is what SilkTork said in December: [53]

"I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved, and motions are perhaps not the appropriate way of gathering evidence and finding a solution - especially when the Committee is divided. If the community are concerned enough about the trolling of Mathsci, and about the impact the fall out from that is having, someone will no doubt put forward a case request in the new year. It may well be that those of us who are involved in arbitration are getting a distorted view of this, and we are seeing it as more disruptive than it is; it is up to the community to let us know how disruptive the matter actually is."

Here is what HersFold said in the same discussion. [54]

"I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it."

If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration. Akuri (talk) 23:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Statement by Momento

I can't recall editing with any of the above or the articles and discussions mentioned. I have simply read what The Devil's Advocate and Mathsci have said and followed the links. It appears that TDA has faithfully adhered to his sanction for six months and it should be lifted. MOMENTO 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Watching this discussion unfold confirms my view that TDA's appeal should be lifted. This argument is bigger than an interaction ban appeal and continuing this sanction is not going to solve it. Six months is more than enough to make a point, further sanctioning is unnecessarily punitive. MOMENTO 02:16, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fairness shouldn't be a popularity contest. TDA has honoured his "one way" sanction for six months, that's enough. All the arguments about what he might do or has done elsewhere are irrelevant. He's served his time.MOMENTO 23:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DavidLeighEllis

Asymmetrical interaction bans seem inherently problematic, and should seldom be imposed. It's no surprise that this one is causing trouble. Either of the two obvious remedies for this problem may be implemented. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IRWolfie-

I don't see what has changed or why this should be overturned, nor has any reason been provided except claiming that it is inconvenient. If it's inconvenient, well that's just too bad. I think Mathsci's comments seems to offer factual, well considered and relevant points; nothing has changed so why should it be overturned? IRWolfie- (talk) 12:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Collect an ad hom isn't fallacious if it provides reasoning for why another persons underlying motives are relevant, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Collect

One-way interaction bans have never made a great deal of sense, and continue to make little sense. I rather believe I have said this in the past, and see no reason to iterate a long section (well -- actually they were short), but the fact remains - one way bans are an open invitation to see Game theory at work. All one way bans should simply be made mutual by motion. Collect (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@MS I made no comment here about you at all -- and I find your ad hom a tad disturbing and off-topic on this page, and to be a comment which likely ought to be removed. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @MS apologies are best made directly to the editors whom you need to apologize to, and not as a modest side comment. Collect (talk) 02:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC) @IRW - I suggest that the outre apology makes your excuses moot. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Keithbob

I have had a few minor interactions with both Mathsci and TDA but I have no clear opinion on the quality of their interactions nor knowledge of the history of their entanglements. However, I am opposed to one-sided interactions bans and TDA appears to have honored this ban despite his/her objections (as they should) and under sometimes challenging circumstances (like the Doncam ArbCom in which I participated) and I think the ban should either be lifted or made into a two-way ban.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

If this interaction ban is lifted, the most likely outcomes will be an increase in the already substantial time that TDA devotes to wiki-litigation, and an increase in the number of disputatious individuals active in the R&I arena. Neither prospect seems to hold clear benefit to the encyclopedia. MastCell ^Talk 16:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IP

One-way interaction bans are currently allowed by policy. An appeal to 'upgrade' a one-way iban to two way on the basis that one ways are unfair was already rejected by arbcom (though it did get some support). As in that instance, AE should not now consider the mere existence of a one-way iban grounds for an appeal as it is not AE's place to declare one-way ibans against policy.

If editors have an issue with one-way ibans they need to take it to the appropriate venue such as the policy page itself or a policy RFC of some sort.

No comment on the validity of the appeal per other grounds. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Beyond My Ken

@SirFozzie: While I have sympathy for your dislike of one-way bans, as they superficially seem inherently unfair, I would urge you not to act on the basis of your general feelings, and instead concentrate on the specifics of this case. Asymmetric sanctions are hardly unusual: think of the many ArbCom cases where one party is topic banned while the opposing party is simply warned. Such solutions become necessary when the behavior of one party contributes substantially more to the disruption than does the behavior of the other. A one-way interaction ban is no different, and this one was the result of an inherent asymmetry in the behaviors of TDA and Mathsci. I think that it's actually a rather nuanced solution, while the removal of the IBan would empower TDA and his allies in their obvious campaign of harrassment and wikilawyering against Mathsci. Not only would such a solution be unfair to the party who is less responsible for the situation, but it would, in my view, be unwise as well, and will almost certainly lead to further disruption. I urge you to reconsider your stance. Thanks, Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm not a fan of one-way interaction bans especially when both sides have exhibited problematic behavior. Overall, I have great respect for the AE process and the admins who volunteer to help handle Wikipedia's most troublesome disputes. I don't envy the difficult work that you have, and I commend you all for the hard work that you do. However, I feel this is one of those areas where AE did not handle the situation in the best possible way. There was problematic conduct on multiple fronts, but the sanctions were not applied evenly. Be that as it may, the easiest solution, and the one that will cause the least problems for Wikipedia in general is to change the interaction ban to two ways. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by MONGO

Completely concur with Mastcell...only since I'm just a MONGO, I had to look disputatious up...and it says "fond of having heated arguments". That sums it up. With all due respect to TDA, I do want to add that his arguments do oftentimes have validity, it's just that he oftentimes doesn't seem to know that there is more to do here than argue.--MONGO 23:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Sjones23

I concur with Mastcell as well. Given that the lifting of the ban may allow TDA and his allies to wage their campaign on harassment against Mathsci, I think that TDA, while still being a longtime and valuable contributor, sometimes does not even know if there is nothing more to do than get involved in contentious confrontations. Harassment has not, will not and should not be tolerated. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Lukeno94

I don't, personally, agree with one-way IBANs. That aside, TDA has followed it for 6 months, and if Mathsci is able to wander into a discussion where TDA has already been highly involved, with TDA then having to partially withdraw from the debate (ie, partial because they can't address Mathsci), is that really constructive and/or helpful for anyone? I'd say repeal the IBAN, with a strict warning that anything that appears to be harassment from TDA towards Mathsci would very quickly land them sanctions. I also feel the need to note, as others have, that both editors are generally good ones, but both can get a bit heated. Certainly neither is better than the other, and thus, a one-way interaction ban isn't warranted. Either apply it as a two-way, or bin it altogether. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at Mathsci's comments, I think that a 2-way IBAN is definitely warranted. Mathsci is allowed, at present, to say absolutely anything they want about TDA, and generally belittle them - yet TDA can't respond. IBAN the pair of them, get this charade over with. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Apteva

No one is allowed to belittle anyone, anywhere, for any reason. There is an ongoing RfC about how to enforce incivility, but from WP:NPA "Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor." Editors do not, or should not, be responding to other editors in discussions. The response is to what was said, and is directed, correctly, only to the group, not to the editor. This is consensus 101. There are two methods of group decision making, parliamentary and consensus. Neither allow commenting to or about other contributors. From Roberts Rules of Order (summarized) "All remarks must be directed to the Chair. Remarks must be courteous in language and deportment - avoid all personalities, never allude to others by name or to motives!"[55] With consensus decision making, the chair is the group, and the same rule applies: Direct all comments to the group, all remarks must be courteous, avoid all personalities, and never allude to others by name or by motive (unless the discussion is about that editor). Apteva (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the claim that one-way interaction bans are inherently unfair. Especially when it turns out that it may hinder article discussion, as one party can feel free to challenge the other's posts and the other person cannot reply without violating their interaction ban. My inclination off hand is to lift the interaction ban, with a reminder that a return to unneeded "wiki-litigation" (as someone has said above would likely see a very low bar to a dual interaction or one-way interaction ban reinstated. SirFozzie (talk) 20:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that since there is not a true consensus either way (to sustain the interaction ban, or to remove it), that this would be a ready-made opportunity to ask the Committee to review this interaction ban. SirFozzie (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, Mathsci, but asking the Committee to review a no consensus decision at AE is explicitly allowed. As for the rest of your comment, you may see no problem with the current situation,but that is because it is to your benefit to not see a problem here. SirFozzie (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me, Ed. SirFozzie (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Without taking a position, I note that there are three possible outcomes. The one way ban stands, the ban is lifted, the ban is made two way. I see zero argument for making it two way, as "it is inherently unfair" holds no water with me. If one party is abusing the privilege, we give one way bans. We do not give two way bans for the purpose of appearing "even handed" in an uneven situation;; just as judges do not give restraining orders to both the stalker and the stalkee. TDA's argument for lifting seems to be "I have complied, even when it was hard, but now I want to be able to answer back." Kudos to TDA, but is that a rationale for lifting? Has there been any instance where the ban has prevented TDA from meaningful contribution, or stating his position, etc? Regarding the Domcram case, surely TDA could have made a statement without referencing Mathsci or his post? I would like input from other admins here; I myself would not find such a violation, but if they would, that needs to be considered. If Mathsci were to say "no diffs have been provided" and TDA were to then, without addressing Mathsci directly, post some diffs, would that be considered "gaming" or otherwise violating? And finally, I note we have yet to hear from T. Canens, and I would prefer to hear his thoughts prior to any decision being made here. Killer Chihuahua 22:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the appeal had to be closed now, it lacks a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to overturn T. Canen's one-way interaction ban. Roughly speaking there are five uninvolved editors who favor lifting TDA's ban or making it two-way and six editors who favor keeping the one-way ban as it is. KC has left a comment in the admin section but has stated that she is not taking a position, so no vote from her. Unless others favor a delay, the appeal should be closed soon as declined. A couple of people have suggested ways for TDA to respond to arguments made by Mathsci in indirect ways that would be consistent with the ban, but it is unclear whether future admins would consider these ideas to be valid loopholes, and there was no consensus here on their validity. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@SirFozzie: It is agreed that Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Reversal of enforcement actions allows the parties to refer an unclear result from AE to the committee by a request for clarification. Such an option makes little practical difference to TDA since he could appeal from AE to the committee anyway. EdJohnston (talk) 14:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just to piggyback on that a bit: Yes, the parties may appeal, and for that reason, I don't think there's any need for the admins at AE to do so. It ought to be left up TDA whether he wants to pursue it to that level or cease appealing. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about closing this with the following text: "There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift the one-way interaction ban on TDA. He retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom." EdJohnston (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now closing since SirFozzie accepts the proposed text, and Heimstern supports the general idea. There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban from Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom. EdJohnston (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Apteva

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Apteva (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Apteva (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles.

This was applied at the request of one editor with no supporting evidence, and was apposed by a non-involved admin as being non-content neutral. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Dicklyon. While it is obvious that MOS and article title policy cover different aspects of Wikipedia, it is a fringe theory that MOS does apply to article titles. It is not something that I have advocated or opposed to any undue length, and no diffs were presented to indicate that taking a stand one way or the other was a problem. Logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: Gatoclass (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: 15 May 2013

Statement by Apteva

The sanction is absurd, meaningless, and without merit. Were it to stand I would call it "the sky is blue topic ban", a ban against stating an obvious fact. As noted, the issue at hand was not my behavior, but the persistent "gratuitous comments on contributor[s] in discussions", and it sets a bad precedent to automatically give out sanctions to the complaintant in addition to or instead of the complaintee. Doing so has a chilling effect on bringing complaints, and is contradictory to the good of Wikipedia. Not one diff was presented that I was "advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles", and even if I was, there is nothing wrong with that. Advocating the opposite is what would be bizarre, but it would also not be sanctionable. The topic ban simply follows the typical approach of "topic ban everyone who disagrees with us and then pretend that we have reached consensus." I request that this additional ban be lifted, as unsupported, misguided, and unwarranted.

"The arbitration process, and admins generally, have no authority over content issues, including over the question as to how we apply the MOS to content. We must therefore not enact sanctions that ban a user from voicing a particular opinion. But, if their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient, we can ban them from discussing the topic altogether, irrespective of the opinions they put forward"

There is no evidence that my conduct in discussions about the MOS or article titles is deficient. I am a frequent contributor to all RM discussions, and appropriately suggest improvements to the MOS when I see deficiencies, although that is done only very rarely, as my interests lie in other areas than in the MOS guidelines. Apteva (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

None of the links provided are evidence of any current behavior that needs to be checked, as all of them are from January. In the last three months, I have made over 2,000 edits, hundreds of them RM discussions, and if this was an issue my talk page would be riddled with complaints by now. This request is completely out of the woodworks and is totally unsupported by even one diff that exhibits a problem that needs to be addressed.

On February 15 I was canvassed to participate in a MOS discussion titled WP:NCCAPS → "shorter than five letters" rule, which I had contributed to in December, and I declined, stating that "we use wp:article titles policy, not MOS to choose titles". Is that a problem? (that was on my talk page) NCCAPS is a naming convention, part of article title policy, and not a part of the MOS guidelines.

Wikipedia does not have a (choose your favorite villian) Party that dictates what everyone has to think and anyone who disagrees must be censored from saying otherwise. This ban is completely ridiculous. I have not been "discussing whether MOS should be applied to titles", and should not be sanctioned for doing so. Where are the diffs that I have made one such edit in the last month? Or two months, or even three? Is this really an ongoing problem, or is it simply in someone's imagination that my thinking the obvious is actually a problem, just because they have a fringe view of how Wikipedia works, and want to stifle all other views? Apteva (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And if I can not discuss whether MOS should be applied, I would be free to unequivocally state that it was, and was not, but could not discuss whether is was or was not? This is getting even more silly. I can not quote MOS anywhere in Wikipedia??? How am I supposed to edit anything? Apteva (talk) 18:19, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As to the April edit, that was the revert of an undiscussed bold edit. If anyone has a campaign, it is not me. As there is absolutely nothing unique to band names, as apposed to any other article capitalization, there is no need for a band name capitalization section at all, and it was appropriately removed. Apteva (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Check the history. There was nothing on the talk page about adding to the capitalization section at the time that addition was made. The proposal on the table was to delete the section.[56], which was added because the page looked like this.[57] The appropriate step would have been to say, no, and I think it should be expanded, because punk rockers can't get band names right, and we don't like the capitalization they use, and want to use our own, or whatever reason, and this is different from say, book titles, and need to have the information repeated here (so that someone can make different rules here and create a content fork from NCCAPS)... It is like changing the name of an article while there is an AFD – pointless. Unless disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is the objective. Apteva (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gatoclass

I will try to keep this brief as I don't want to waste any more time on this than I already have. I had a number of reasons for modifying the original sanction to include the phrase and against the MOS being applicable to article titles. Firstly, that wording was included in the originally proposed topic ban, which received strong consensus at AN/I, here. I don't know why Seraphimblade chose to omit the phrase when imposing the actual sanction and was unable to query him on it since he is not currently active; however, in coming to the decision I did, I was influenced by Seraphimblade's comment later in the AN/I discussion[58] when he described a proposal by Apetva to remove references to MOS in WP:TITLE as clearly related to Apteva's activity in the area of dashes/hyphens, and ... a violation of the ban. While Seraphimblade went on to state that he felt no extension of the ban would be necessary before imposing a sanction for such edits, I am of the opinion that it is generally better to remove ambiguities in the scope of a topic ban in order to avoid any possible chance of misunderstanding and thus potential future wikidrama.

I was further influenced in my decision by a couple of recent edits by Apteva, one of which removed reference to MOS in the WP:Naming conventions (music) guideline,[59] which might be interpreted as a renewal of the same campaign, and also by some comments at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, where the user made what I considered to be some ill-informed comments regarding policy, particularly that WP:BLP applies to articles about the deceased.[60] Apteva is also in the habit of making absolutist statements on talk pages which indicates possible ongoing difficulties with collaboration. It was for these reasons I initially considered a broader MOS- or TITLE-related ban for Apteva, but after they assured me on my talk page that they no longer belabour a point I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and merely modify the original ban to reflect the originally proposed wording.

Apteva states that they have made "hundreds of edits in RM discussions" in the past few months without complaint, if that is the case I suppose the above handful of edits might be considered unrepresentative; nonetheless the extension of the ban I made would not impinge on their ability to continue contributing to such debates; the extension only prohibits them from advocating a particular view related to a meta-issue on which they have been deemed disruptive in the past. Given Seraphimblade's comments, I am still inclined to view this modified wording as more of a clarification than an extension; however, I don't feel strongly about this issue, and if the consensus among reviewing admins is that Apteva's recent conduct is not sufficiently problematic to warrant the rewording, or that the rewording is unnecessary, I won't argue the point. Gatoclass (talk) 13:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dicklyon

The evidence of the problem, and of the community's support for this ban as a partial solution, is plentiful, starting with the section under my name above, and including, going back in time: [61], [62], [63], [64], among other places. Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent anti-MOS-in-titles disruption that he says there's no evidence of is this section blanking in naming conventions. (remarkably, he now claims above that his section blanking was a revert of an undiscussed bold edit, which it most clearly was not; it was neither a revert nor was the prior change undiscussed; my edit before his blanking was in fact a clarification prompted by his own initiated discussion, in which he pointed out a potential problem that I fixed, at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization. par for the course.)

As for ErikHaugen's suggestion, I don't mind it being more neutral, but the trouble with replacing "advocating" with "discussing" is that it doesn't prohibit steps like the one I just linked above, in which the anti-MOS advocacy was in the form of section blanking, not discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 19:00, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ohconfucius

oh boy, the circus is back in town again just as the Big Top was being dismantled. Do you think it's wise? You have lots of seats to fill, and few of us want to see the show again after the clown disgraced himself and the tiger pissed all over the audience. ;-) -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 04:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor N)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Apteva

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

<Sigh>....the inability to let things go is the cause of most topic bans. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved ErikHaugen

I want to address a couple of points that Apteva raised.

it sets a bad precedent to automatically give out sanctions to the complaintant in addition to or instead of the complaintee — This precedent is already quite well established. This happens all the time. See wp:BOOMERANG. Regardless of the merits of the rest of this appeal, this should not be considered to be an issue.
apposed by a non-involved admin as being non-content neutral — I was a bit surprised to see this, too. I think it would be a reasonable outcome of this appeal that and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles be replaced with something like ~~and from discussing whether the MOS is applicable to article titles~~. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per Dicklyon, this should probably be something that would prohibit any edits related to the issue, if it's changed. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved SmokeyJoe

It is appropriate that there is a chilling effect on bringing a complaint. Weak complainants deserve a bucket of cold water. If you are going to complain about another editor and seek a formal sanction, you ought to be at least several shades better in standing. WP:BOOMERANG. Bringing a formal complaint is an aggressive act. An alternative is to ask another for help.

I admit to not understanding the ban in question. "the MOS" reads as a contradiction, because there is no single MOS. The multiple MOSs are guidelines, WP:AT is policy, guidelines are usually considered to defer to policy pages where there is there is discrepancy, which sounds a tad legalistic and should be read instead as "where there is discrepancy, fix the guideline to remove the discrepancy". It is very unclear as to what it is that Apteva would like to do that the sanction prevents.

Apteva appears to have been found guilty of filing a weak request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Dicklyon. WP:BOOMERANG requires a response. I think that WP:TROUT would have been better, that the longer-lasting insult of a sanction was a little bit strong. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved editor Dirtlawyer1

This comment is directed to Gatoclass. WP:BLP does, in fact, explicitly apply to the recently deceased. In pertinent part, the introductory paragraph of WP:BLP states:

"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

The added emphasis is mine. Whether this is relevant in a talk page discussion about someone who died in 1997 I leave to the sound discretion of the reader. I take no position on the merits of this appeal. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Apteva

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nataev

Appeal declined. EdJohnston (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Nataev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Nataev (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from the subject of Goldblum

Administrator imposing the sanction: Salvio giuliano (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

[65]

Statement by Nataev

I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved. I apologize for repeatedly breaking the rules.

While I'm not interested in this particular subject, having a ban is bothering me very much. I feel like it's a bad mark on my record as a Wikipedia editor. Please take a look at my previous work to judge my work on Wikipedia.

I will avoid writing on the subject altogether. I will avoid breaching BLP rules in the future. I ask, in good faith, to have the ban lifted. I'm willing to comply with any demands that will help me have the ban lifted.

Note: Initially I didn't really understand how topic bans work. I thought topic bans technically block users from making any changes. That's why I made this test edit. At the time I didn't know this would constitute a breach of the ban. I thought I wouldn't be able to save this edit because I believed I had been technically blocked from making any changes on this topic. I apologize for this mistake.

I'm sorry if my statements were not very specific.

I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved.
I want to appeal the ban because I see it as a bad mark on my record.
I have no motivation to edit on this particular subject in the future. However, I will avoid breaking rules while editing BLP articles in the future.

Thank you. Nataev (talk) 22:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize to everyone, especially you, Nomoskedasticity. I'm determined not to get involved in such topics ever again. By now I understand that breaking BLP rules is a serious matter. I hope you will understand my concerns and help me get the ban lifted. Thanks, Nataev (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Salvio, the reason I kept writing even after I decided to withdraw was the continued responses of Goldblum. He just couldn't stop mentioning me and attacking me in his comments. That's why I felt obliged to respond. In fact if you take a look at his latest comments, he's now attacking others. See this. He's gonna fight tooth and nail to whitewash himself. I used to believe Wikipedia could be neutral. If you think about it, Wikipedia is for volunteers. You guys think you're in a position to discourage people from contributing. Well, so be it. I bet you can't find a single person, not one, who can write on the topics I can. Anyhow, I'm tired of admins' conceited, biased, and impartial comments. I'm leaving. Nataev (talk) 09:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Salvio giuliano

My problem is that Nataev repeatedly declared he intended to withdraw from the discussion, but then failed to so, continuing to attack Goldblum – examples: 1, 2, 3; here he writes "I wish I could be left out of this. [...] I leave it to them to decide where the article is biased or not.", but ten minutes later he writes this.

Had Nataev not continued to attack Goldblum in spite of his stated intention to ignore the scholar, I'd have ignored the thread, but since he continued, I felt a topic ban was necessary to stop disruption to the project.

In general, I usually support lifting a restriction, if the user in question undertakes to refrain from the behaviour which caused the sanction to be imposed in the first place; in this case, however, considering, as I've already said, that Nataev repeatedly told he'd stop discussing Goldblum, but kept on posting attacks nonetheless, I don't think it would be wise to accept his appeal. So, I suggest his request is declined. $Salvio$ ^{Let's talk about it!} 09:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

This is the ANI discussion where Nataev made repeated BLP violations against the subject of an article. Nataev might be bothered by having a topic ban on record, but it was richly deserved and there's no reason at all to lift it; his repeated declarations that he is "not interested in this subject" are belied by his repeated posts about it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iselilja

I don't know much about Nataev, as I first became aware of him when I became aware of the Amiram Goldblum article (which I watchlisted). Nataev's comment on Goldblum was obviously troubling (re:BLP), so I understand why the topic ban was placed. However, taken a look at the rest of Nataev's history here, I get the impression that he is a serious, no-drama user who has made valuable contributions. The Goldblum affair appears to be untypical, and my impression is that Nataev now just want to go back to no-drama constructive editing (or leave). There is a negative psychological effect of having a topic ban registered which I think should not be overlooked. Showing a bit of clemency, respect and trust even to people who have got themselves in trouble often gives better results - on Wikipedia as in real life - I believe. I would support lifting the topic ban provided Nataev clearly states that he won’t make any edits or comments concerning Goldblum on Wikipedia ever again. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 22:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RolandR

Moved out of threaded discussion

Surely the above comment, too, is a breach of the topic ban. Not a good idea in an appeal against the ban! RolandR (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nataev

Result of the appeal by Nataev

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I would decline the appeal. Nataev does not argue that the appealed sanction was procedurally or materially flawed, and indeed it does not appear to be in error at first glance. The appeal contains only vague generalities about WP:BLP, but does not indicate that Nataev understands how or why their actions violated that policy, and how (if unbanned) they will edit about this subject in a policy-compliant manner (see, by analogy, WP:GAB). We must therefore assume that the ban is (still) necessary to prevent violations of WP:BLP. Sandstein 22:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am blocking Nataev for this violation of the topic ban (which cannot be excused as part of necessary dispute resolution in the context of this appeal, because the allegation of wrongdoing on the part of Amiram Goldblum was not necessary to argue this appeal). Without objection by uninvolved admins, given the direction this is going in, I think we can close this as declined soon. Sandstein 10:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing as declined. If an editor declares he is leaving a topic and then keeps on going back to it we can't take him seriously. This edit where Nataev defends his description of Goldblum as an 'obscure, semi-literate scholar' should not give us much optimism about Nataev's editing of BLP articles. Note that this topic ban was issued by Salvio under WP:BLPSE and not ARBPIA. EdJohnston (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by IranitGreenberg

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: IranitGreenberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – IranitGreenberg (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from the subject of Palestinian-Israeli conflict, imposed at

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Pluto2012 reported by User:IranitGreenberg (Result: Topic ban of IranitGreenberg)

Administrator imposing the sanction: EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [66]

Statement by IranitGreenberg

After Pluto2012 warned me against 1RR violation in an article, I saw he broke the rule himself so I reported him, but somehow I ended topic-banned because of my edits in this article. I already promised not to make controversial editions in that article and to look for consensus before introducing material that could be considered POV-pushing. I'm sorry for what I've done, I won't do it again. I want to have another chance to make valuable contributions to this encyclopedia with patience and dialogue.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EdJohnston

My rationale was already given in the AN3 complaint. The present AE appeal was filed right after my closure of the report at

WP:AN3#User:Pluto2012 reported by User:IranitGreenberg (Result: Topic ban of IranitGreenberg)

In the complaint, six people besides myself commented on IranitGreenberg's editing of I/P articles. For more background, you could also check the discussion at User talk:IranitGreenberg#Complaint about your edits at WP:AN3. EdJohnston (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pluto2012

IranitGreenberg should learn wikipedia principles out of a topic that seems to touch him too much. In this section, after I informed him of the 4th pillar and the fact that it was a problem he considered openly there were too many pov-pushers on the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he succeeded in accusing directly 6 contributors namely of pov-pushing. He is much more agressive than any of the standards that are accepted on wikipedia and he focuses on the very polemic arena of the I-P conflict. He should try to prove he can collaborate on easier topics before coming back on this one. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I deeply regret my accusations. From now one, I'll discuss everything on the talk page before making an edit.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by 1ST7

I think it would be harsh and unfair to ban IranitGreenberg from the topic, as he/she has promised to be more careful and to make the effort to improve. He/she is relatively new to Wikipedia and is still working to improve his/her own editing abilities.

It should be noted that most of the other editors who complained against this user are hardly neutral parties in this issue, one of which ranted about their own political views on IG's talk page for no apparent reason.

If anything, let IranitGreenberg be on probation for a few weeks, but give him/her the chance the go through with the promises he/she made and continue to improve. --1ST7 (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1) The edit you link to is hardly "a rant"

2) ~~In any case, that editor has not been involved in this complaint~~

3) Having commented several times in the discussion under consideration here, stating "I agree with IranitGreenberg", you really shouldn't describe yourself as an "uninvolved editor". RolandR (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1) It still seems rather rude to write a long and somewhat offensive post about one's own political opinions on someone else's talk page for no apparent reason.

2) That user complained about IranitGreenberg in the Administrators noticeboard and participated in the discussion that ultimately resulted in this ban.

3) I wasn't involved with the discussion that originally led to this ban. --1ST7 (talk) 22:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble by pointing out the issue with the talk page; the purpose of that was only to point out that it's unlikely that everyone who participated in the original discussion was an unbiased commentator. --1ST7 (talk) 00:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone who has been involved in articles related to the topic of the ban, as you have at Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, even referring to IranitGreenberg by name on the talk page there, you are not an "uninvolved editor". I'm not questioning your right to comment here, but you should move your comment to before the "uninvolved editors" subheading. Zero^talk 03:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Should I move this entire conversation there or just my original statement? --1ST7 (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping it all together is best. I did it. Zero^talk 05:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 5)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by IranitGreenberg

Statement by Keithbob

While I see value in IG's admission of wrong doing and apology I do not think that it is grounds for a reversal of an AN discussion where there was a clear, strong consensus for a topic ban. IG would do well to collaborate constructively in other areas and then make her appeal after some months. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by IranitGreenberg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 315: / Line 315: @@
 == Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Devil's Advocate ==
+{{hat|1=Declined since there is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban with Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom by making a request for clarification. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 18:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC) }}
-<small>''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found [[Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Enforcement|here]]. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. <p>To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see [[WP:UNINVOLVED]]).''</small>
 ; Appealing user : {{userlinks|The Devil's Advocate}} – [[User:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="vermillion">'''The Devil's Advocate'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="burntorange">tlk.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/The Devil's Advocate|<font color="red">cntrb.</font>]]</sub> 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
@@ Line 432: / Line 432: @@
 :::Just to piggyback on that a bit: Yes, the parties may appeal, and for that reason, I don't think there's any need for the admins at AE to do so. It ought to be left up TDA whether he wants to pursue it to that level or cease appealing. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 07:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 ::::How about closing this with the following text: "There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift the one-way interaction ban on TDA. He retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom." [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 14:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
+:Now closing since SirFozzie accepts the proposed text, and Heimstern supports the general idea. There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban from Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 17:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 <!-- Please notify the appellant in the event of a successful appeal, in addition to logging it on the case page. [[:Template:AE sanction]] informs users that "If you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful."-->
 <!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.-->
+{{hab}}
 == Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Apteva ==

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