Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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*::(This is moving in the direction of a general discussion of enforcement philosophy rather than the specifics of this request, so I'd be open to moving it elsewhere.) There always remains the question of literal versus more flexible interpretation, especially where the letter of a ruling has been violated but its spirit has not been. It bears emphasis that no set of rules, whether simple or complicated, can anticipate in advance every situation that might later arise. As I have in the past, I refer everyone to my essay [[User:Newyorkbrad/Newyorkbradblog#Clear_remedies,_arbitration_decisions,_and_AE|here]], or better still to [https://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/files/ssrn-id1282226.pdf the best law review article ever]. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 18:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
*::(This is moving in the direction of a general discussion of enforcement philosophy rather than the specifics of this request, so I'd be open to moving it elsewhere.) There always remains the question of literal versus more flexible interpretation, especially where the letter of a ruling has been violated but its spirit has not been. It bears emphasis that no set of rules, whether simple or complicated, can anticipate in advance every situation that might later arise. As I have in the past, I refer everyone to my essay [[User:Newyorkbrad/Newyorkbradblog#Clear_remedies,_arbitration_decisions,_and_AE|here]], or better still to [https://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/files/ssrn-id1282226.pdf the best law review article ever]. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 18:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::The solution isn't to make the rule more wishy-washy, and make editors unsure of it will apply. That's why it's a [[bright-line rule]]. If they had said no to the water at the beginning there wouldn't have been a problem. You're suggesting the path that leads to milkshakes. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 20:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
*:::The solution isn't to make the rule more wishy-washy, and make editors unsure of it will apply. That's why it's a [[bright-line rule]]. If they had said no to the water at the beginning there wouldn't have been a problem. You're suggesting the path that leads to milkshakes. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 20:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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==KronosAlight== |
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<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
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===Request concerning KronosAlight=== |
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; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Dylanvt}} 13:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|KronosAlight}}<p>{{ds/log|KronosAlight}}</p> |
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<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> |
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;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles]] |
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<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> |
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; [[WP:DIFF|Diffs]] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : |
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<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as [[WP:NPA|personal attacks]], or groundless or [[vexatious]] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> |
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Well isn't this ironic. The fac |
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Violated [[WP:1RR|1RR]] at: |
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[[2024 Nuseirat rescue operation]] |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228445405 08:02, 11 June 2024] Partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228132458 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228237750 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228363363 20:55, 10 June 2024] Revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228362402 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228359068 20:26, 10 June 2024] Combined revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228353519 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228347164 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228302179 14:03, 10 June 2024] Partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1227948327 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228300280 13:49, 10 June 2024] Partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228235517 this]. |
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#https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228299764 13:46, 10 June 2024] Revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228294593 this] and partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228295173 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228183084 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228182886 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228144768 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1227947416 this]. |
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[[Al-Sardi school attack]] |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228443075 07:39, 11 June 2024] Revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228392038 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228391970 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228309944 14:52, 10 June 2024] Combined partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228134724 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1227914570 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1227797134 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1227796341 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Sardi_school_attack&oldid=1227526227 this]. |
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[[Nuseirat refugee camp massacre]] |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228260438 08:14, 10 June 2024]] Partial revert of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228259817 this]. |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228258880 08:01, 10 June 2024] Combined partial and complete reverts of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228130165 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228100602 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228103759 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228053417 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&oldid=1227962778 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228140158 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1228131230 this]. |
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; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : |
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<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> |
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#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=1216064231 20:35, 28 March 2024] Indefinitely topic banned from "flood myths". |
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;If [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics|contentious topics restrictions]] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see [[WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics]]): |
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<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> |
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*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:KronosAlight&diff=prev&oldid=1228390207 00:06, 11 June 2024] (see the system log linked to above). When I explained that they were constrained by 1RR and must self-revert their response was "No." They didn't dispute that they had violated 1RR or indicate that they did not understand it in any way. They simply flat-out refused. |
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; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : |
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<!-- Add any further comment here --> |
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KronosAlight also has a history of making incendiary, belligerent, aspersive, and off-topic comments on talk pages. |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228367943 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228367600 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228367189 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Al-Sardi_school_attack&diff=prev&oldid=1228358772 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228353566 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228353566 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228315030 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eden_Golan&diff=prev&oldid=1223268642 here] |
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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eden_Golan&diff=prev&oldid=1223262402 here] |
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:KronosAlight&diff=prev&oldid=1228480255 here]. |
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<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> |
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===Discussion concerning KronosAlight=== |
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<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> |
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====Statement by KronosAlight==== |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
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<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> |
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===Result concerning KronosAlight=== |
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:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' |
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Revision as of 13:24, 11 June 2024
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
![]() | Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Makeandtoss and M.Bitton
Makeandtoss given a final warning for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics, with a side of trouts for the other involved parties for escalating the situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC) | |||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Makeandtoss and M.Bitton
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war, including multiple reverts and discussions (one, two, etc), over the lede's third paragraph; to resolve this I opened an RfC per dispute resolution. A few hours later, after three !votes including mine, Makeandtoss closed it, striking comments in violation of TPO. They had previously been involved in this dispute, in the article (example) and in discussions. I reverted, but shortly after M.Bitton reclosed it. They weren't involved in the immediate dispute but are generally, including expressing strong opinions on related content. The RfC was necessary and lacked sufficient issues to justify a premature close making closing it generally disruptive, but more so here because of their involvement, locking in a status quo that they both appear to favor. Previously discussed at ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page and ARCA, where Barkeep49 said they M.Bitton declined to self-revert.
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Makeandtoss: M.Bitton:
Discussion concerning Makeandtoss and M.BittonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MakeandtossAs evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature. What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action. That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [1], [2], [3], [4]. I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: and @Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic. My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad: I really appreciate the chance to present my perspective, and @ScottishFinnishRadish:'s comment that shows their genuine dedication to handling this request appropriately. First, note that the Israel-Hamas war article sees dozens of edits every day, and numerous discussions. Over the course of months this accumulates and gets inevitably confusing for everyone, especially as the ideas or edits are sometimes discussed in different phrasings or closely resemble one another.
The fact that I have created or engaged in these discussions shows my good faith and collaborative approach. In summary, this unfortunate incident took place in a sensitive RFC opened controversially and in a sensitive and highly active article. I accordingly made a hasty decision, to which I apologize about and vow that it would not be repeated. A lot of lessons learnt here: to specifically never strike through or remove any RFC; and more generally, to demonstrate greater patience, to put in greater efforts to examine similar situations, and to never act in haste. As for the separate older incident with Number57 on 1 January, I did not say in the edit summary that no discussion had taken place, but that the RFC went against WP:RFCBEFORE, which states that if a dispute is between two editors they should seek WP:Third opinion first. After I removed the RFC, another third editor agreed with Number57's edit and disagreed with mine, and I stopped and did not take the issue further. Again, I was only made aware of the issues surrounding removing an RFC only after the recent incident. Makeandtoss (talk) 23:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
First, thanks to all the admins who are taking a lot of their precious time and effort to diligently examine this extended request as well and the responses.
Statement by M.BittonI already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton (talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by NableezyI dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SelfstudierMy sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zerotalk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC) Just saying...WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zerotalk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by NewimpartialIn this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions. So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general. To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Number 57I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 57 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by AlaexisClosing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, Statement by Iskandar323It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by KashmiriI agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrī TALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by CoretheappleLots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple (talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Vice regent@ScottishFinnishRadish: and @Seraphimblade: as you consider sanctions, I'd like to add that Makeandtoss is exceptionally productive. They are one of the very few users I see regularly creating new articles or significantly expanding existing ones in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. They have an impressive User:Makeandtoss/DYK record (many of them in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area), with some DYKs of articles they created still active (eg Killing of David Ben Avraham). They helped promote articles in this topic area to GA status (eg Battle of Karameh, Black September, Hussein of Jordan etc). Just last month, they wrote the entire History of Palestinian journalism article. I've also seen them create useful stubs (eg Mohammad Hyasat of the Jordanian Air Force, who helped defend Israel from Iranian attacks).VR (Please ping on reply) 11:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Makeandtoss and M.Bitton
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Galamore
Galamore cautioned against continuing long term edit wars, especially when those edit wars have been the target of sockpuppetry and off-wiki canvassing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Galamore
Removing referenced statements & replacing with original research General 1RR violations: Rafah offensive
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized (talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning GalamoreStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by GalamoreHi, everyone My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it. Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much. I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me. If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars. When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides. Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity. On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore (talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammal
Statement by Zero0000OP doesn't seem to know what 1RR means. Zerotalk 09:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierFor the sake of completeness, see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Galamore, gaming the system Selfstudier (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC) And the discussion Talk:Israel–Hamas war#UN changes reported casualty figures.Selfstudier (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Galamore
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AtikaAtikawa
Blocked one week for ECR violations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning AtikaAtikawa
Background evidence: 18 May 2024 AtikaAtikawa knows how to post an edit request Various comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war (permalink)
Creation of Israel–Palestine conflict userboxes
Polemicizing in MfDs for the aforementioned userboxes:
The editor has eight mainspace edits. All of their mainspace edits have been made between January and September 2020. The editor has 177 total edits, of which 31.1% have been deleted. 69.7% of their live edits have been to userspace. The user is generally inactive as an editor of Wikipedia, but has increased activity probably due to interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict, but instead of resuming normal editorial activity, which would mean making edit requests for a while, the activity has been predominantly polemical. Therefore, seeing all of this user's edits in total, the user is WP:NOTHERE.
Discussion concerning AtikaAtikawaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AtikaAtikawaAs for the comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war. I acknowledge that I failed at understanding ECR limitations when I made them; A rookie mistake that stems from the fact that I just started having interest in editing Wikipedia, and I'm still familiarising myself with the rules. In fact I was warned and I did obey. Briefly, I acknowledge my mistake here. As for the userboxes. I hope that you take into consideration my arguments in their MfD entries. Basically, I think that Alalch E. is assuming bad faith since he is accusing me of endorsing violence and deeming atrocities as just with no basis, and I think that I actually clarified that through the documentation that the filer deemed as "apologia for violence including atrocities against civilians" when it is just a statement of a viewpoint, that is against violence from both sides. As for the polemical comments. They were basically just answers to comments that were polemical themselves rather than referring clearly to policies that I did break. I totally understands that two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm really open to advices that concern how could I have handled this better. As stated above, I'm well aware that I'm unexperienced, and I hope that my niche interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict will not be somehow held against me, rather I hope for whatever answer I'll get to this to contain referrals to the rules I broke in order to be mindful to them from now on. I acknowledge that my behaviour was suboptimal, and I acknowledge that it did stem from a potential lack of understanding the rules from my part, and I welcome any decision that comes from your part with the hope that it will serve the noble goal of making me a better editor with a better service to the encyclopedia rather than punishment just for the sake of it.— Yours Truly, ⚑ AtikaAtikawa 15:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierTechnical picky point, defendant is non EC and not permitted to make statements here (or anywhere, really). An admin could/should deal with this? Selfstudier (talk) 15:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The KipSeconding Selfstudier here - the defendant is several hundred edits short of XC status anyways, so this should be a fairly textbook warning (or TBAN) for violating the ARBPIA XC restriction rather than a drawn-out AE case. The Kip (contribs) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Vice regent@Alalch E.: can you remove this inflammatory comment? There are AGF interpretations of AtikaAtikawa's userbox, and these were given by Robert McClenon and Chaotic Enby. AtikaAtikawa themself wrote that the userbox doesn't support political violence, yet you still throw words like "pro-terrorism" around, and that raises the temperature.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning AtikaAtikawa
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by אקעגן
The sanction being appealed expired; following this, אקעגן violated the sanctions again and was blocked for one month. If they wish to appeal that block, it will be necessary to do so with a separate appeal. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by אקעגןI only made a change to a talk page, which is usually the way I can make my opinions known on a locked or protected page. The notice that it was only for extended confirmed users was on the top of the section, and not on the top of the page, so I missed it. I believe a week block is fairly severe under this circumstance. I have read through CTOP and ARBECR, and will abide by these rules to avoid this in the future. Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishI told them
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by אקעגןStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by starship.paintאקעגן said that they have
Statement by SelfstudierComplainant per WP:ARBECR has no standing to even make this complaint and it should be dismissed with prejudice. See, for example see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed." Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandI have a question for אקעגן. You were notified of the ARBPIA restrictions on 2024-03-20, and by convention, the assumption is that you read it because you removed it. You then made 9 edits to Portal:Current events/2024 to include content unambiguously within scope of the restrictions over a period of a month or so. Why did you think that was okay and what could have prevented it? Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Selfstudier's reasoning is interesting. Not sure I buy the "this is not a complaint" idea. It is a complaint against something, an admin action, the severity of the action, and it's a block appeal. It can be both. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Firefangledfeathers@Newyorkbrad and Seraphimblade: this is ready for closure, given that the block being appealed has expired. You may want to note the new violations and new block. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by אקעגן
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Sentaso
Sentaso is indefinitely topic banned from WP:BLPs, broadly construed, and is given a final warning to avoid incivility. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sentaso
Editor had edited Nick McKenzie to insert material which RfC determined should not be in the article. Upon being advised by myself of consensus (as determined by RfC close) and what they could do if disagree with the close, editor has sought to misinterpret WP policy and engaged in casting WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:ABF. Editor appears to be a WP:SPA who is editing to WP:RGW. TarnishedPathtalk 14:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Sentaso, I have moved your comment to your section. Please write any comments you have in your section of the notice. TarnishedPathtalk 09:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SentasoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Sentaso2. @TarnishedPath: JML1148 in their own words stated "numerical majority against removing the content" and then claimed there was consensus to remove the content. - Yes, yourself and others related to this appear to be Australian as per your Wikipedia profiles. Mckenzie is Australian, and there's seems to be a commonality of those in favor of removing content related him are also Australian. Certainly potential for Conflict_of_interest 3. Evidence was in point 2 above re JML1148 comment. 4. I didn't reinsert anything, I don't know why you're making things up that WP history shows to be false. I added to the discussion highlighting it had been prematurely closed. I've also asked who/when the discussion was deemed over and with what authority, which you didn't answer. If yourself and associates had followed WP best practice there would clear sections on the page detailing why the page would be archived. The page has been blasted with text claiming the discussion is closed, but there appears to be no grounds for closure. I've asked you several times if you could source why this page was archived, which you've ignored, likely because you cannot. 5. As per comments on their Talk page (which he keeps removing) it appears TarnishedPath does not understand some aspects of WP:BLP. A quote of yours from the Mckenzie archive "if McKenzie is not named, then what is the material doing on a WP:BLP about McKenzie? TarnishedPathtalk 00:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)" BLPs do not always need to explicitly mention the subject's name as long as the information can be clearly and unambiguously attributed to the subject 6. Duplicate content, see my point 2 above. 7. You don't understand BLP, one should be grateful I highlighted your misunderstanding on your talk page 8. Duplicate content
Regarding comments below, these references to talk pages are a red herring. The real issue is why the Mckenzie discussion page was archived, the sham RFC and why BLP is not being followed correctly for the Mckenzie page. Tarnished Path falsely suggested that BLP need to name the person which is incorrect. I did him a favor by raising this issue on his talk page and he gets aggressive and removes the content. Why not focus on the main issues instead of the number of edits a user has? Unhelpful Sentaso (talk) 13:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Sentaso
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LokiTheLiar
No issues with the notification to the LGBT Wikiproject. BilledMammal, when you're frequently the target of accusations that you're weaponizing AE maybe don't weaponize AE in this way. You're more than aware of the community consensus around these notifications, as you've been involved in some of the discussions where it has come up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning LokiTheLiar
Notified a partisan forum, violating WP:CANVASS. They were aware of this issue, and the RfC that this is a repeat of raised the same issue, but they rejected it and decided to issue the notification anyway. That this is canvassing can be seen in the evidence below, which analyses three recent RfC's held at the Village Pump and proves that the WikiProject is non-representative on this topic, with a collective opinion that deviates by a significant margin from that of the broader community. These WP:ARBCOM principles are also relevant (emphasis mine):
Note that this only applies to transgender topics. As far as I know the Wikiproject is not partisan on other topics within its area of interest and thus there are no issues with notifying them on those topics.
Other issues related to this RfC including misrepresenting sources; they have claimed that the Telegraph
There was a consensus in that discussion that notifying Wikiprojects is almost never canvassing; given the number of editors who qualified their comments there wasn’t a consensus that it never is. Further, this is a contentious topic; editors should stay well clear of violating policy, and notifying a fora that is known to be partisan isn’t doing that, regardless of what you believe consensus at an informal and non-specific discussion says. 12:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning LokiTheLiarStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LokiTheLiarI anticipated that this user would make a tendentious report like this based on comments made on previous discussions, which is why I asked the village pump about this situation before I did it. In short, there is a strong and recent community consensus that notifying all relevant Wikiprojects is not WP:CANVASSING. And I would like to point out to any admins evaluating here that BilledMammal must know this because they participated in the thread. Loki (talk) 11:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
A statement by starship.paintI'm really not sure about this. Is it a surprise that WP:LGBT would be partisan on LGBT issues? No. But is the topic of the coverage of trans issues by the Telegraph related to WP:LGBT? Definitely yes? starship.paint (RUN) 09:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierEchoing starship.paint. In AI area, we routinely post to 3 projects, one each on either side and the other theoretically neutral. Here there is no other "side" so presumably editors with an interest in the subject matter camp out at the given project and then we are led to believe there is evidence that this forum is "partisan". Not convinced that this is a sufficient reason to invoke canvassing, though, it's not as if it isn't being done in plain sight and projects are seemingly a natural place to advertise a discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 09:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by TarnishedPathThis is a particularly frivolous report that has been brought.
This should be closed with no action. TarnishedPathtalk 12:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Colin
Crap. I was referring to this RSN discussion where Loki wrote what I said he did and in which I participated. Seems there's now a second discussion on the very same page about the same thing. WTF Loki, what a mess. Didn't you RTM about not polling unless there was a clear consensus for your proposal? It was already an uphill battle to convince anyone to deprecate the Telegraph on this matter without you opening with careless comments about the cat litter story and then essentially saying that because they don't accept trans women are women, or have been interviewing The Wrong People, the are actually unreliable vs just believe different things to you. BilledMammal apologies about this. I think part of your latest post here is still wrong, but this isn't the forum to discuss that. Overall, though, I think BilledMammal should withdraw this. Being Wrong on the Internet isn't a crime and hasn't helped Loki's RFC. The notification thing clearly isn't something you've persuaded people here about, so likely is an area that needs some work elsewhere, where it isn't focussing on an individual. Since the RFC is a spectacular failure anyway, couldn't you just have got some popcorn? -- Colin°Talk 12:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by -scheSuggest trout for BilledMammal per Colin and TarnishedPath; notifying relevant wikiprojects (Loki notified the journalism, LGBT and UK projects and the NEWS page) is well- and long-established as fine, and (as pointed out above) was just recently affirmed. That BilledMammal presented his argument so recently in the VPP and consensus was clearly that notifying relevant projects is appropriate makes this filing look...tendentious; I don't know if it's forum-shopping per se, but it comes across as WP:IDHT-y. -sche (talk) 17:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood SociologistBM should recieve a warning, not just a trout, for wasting the community's time for a month over this issue and this ridiculous filing based on WP:IDHT. Some context:
BM is attempting to sanction an editor for upholding a consensus that BM is not only aware has existed for a decade, but has been re-affirmed 3 times in the last month. WP:TE and WP:IDHT are obvious. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning LokiTheLiar
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JDiala
JDiala is indefinitely topic banned from all pages relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. Doug Weller talk 10:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning JDiala
User has a pattern of edit warring, incivility and NotForum violations, including but not limited to:
Issue is generally apparent on topics regarding I/P, with at least one occurrence in topics regarding Judaism. This is my first AE filing, so apologies for any errors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JDiala&diff=prev&oldid=1227053862
Discussion concerning JDialaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by JDiala
Update 06/05/24: In response to The Wordsmith's comment regarding recent diffs, I will say that while my tone was not the best, I think each case ultimately reflected a desire to cooperate and contribute meaningfully. I was not being uncivil for the sake of being uncivil. In this case it is true that I made an uncalled for comparison between closing an RfC and Israeli settlements. But the actual motivation here is to cooperate and accept that the community decided my RfC (and my closure) were not good and started a new one. In this case, I will concede that my tone was poor. The claim "[other] states like China and Russia, while awful, are significantly richer and more interesting societies" could be perceived as bigoted towards Israelis, and I should have worded it better in retrospect. I apologize to those offended. However, if one can get past the initial gut reaction that my comment was ridiculous, there was a legitimate underlying motivation. Other editors were questioning why other countries did not have war crimes in their leads, but Israel does. I responded with what I considered a policy-based reason for this: that WP:RS for Israel tends to disproportionately focus on war crimes (narrower focus), whereas for some other states (Russia, China) the RS discuss things more broadly ("richer"). That said, I will be more mindful of tone in the future if given a second chance. Note: to stay within the 500-word limit after the update, I significantly shortened the points I wrote earlier. JDiala (talk) 19:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Rajoub570After posting a message on the admin noticeboard regarding this issue, I saw that there is already a discussion here. So reposting it here (shortened): The Israeli–Palestinian conflict, what is known here as ARBPIA, is a very sensitive issue. My personal opinion, as someone that the conflict also concerns his personal life (I am Palestinian :)) One should deal with the issue carefully. I would like to raise the issue of one editor - @JDiala's behavior that, as I see it, not only harm's Wikipedia's objectivity, but also harms the chance of a peaceful life in our area. Here are some examples:
I saw that editors have been asking them to moderate their language many times before. [link - 2014], [link - 2015], [link - January 2024], [link - February 2024]. The editor even received a week-long ban in December for violating 1RR. [link] As a Palestinian, whose life is affected daily by the conflict, with my criticisms of Israel, I find this behavior problematic for Wikipedia. We have to stay objective. I think JDiala should be asked not to deal at all with a topic that clearly arouses their anger. Their edits hurt the project, and ultimately the Palestinians as well. Please don't add fuel to the fire. Rajoub570 (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Sean.hoylandI think both FortunateSons and JDiala are assets for ARBPIA. Very different kinds of assets with very different tones. This conversation shows how hard it is to build bridges and find common ground in ARBPIA. It would be good if JDiala could find a way to live with and adapt to what they regard as tone policing in the topic area. It's unfortunate that, in my view anyway, ARBCOM constraints accidentally create a selection pressure that give a fitness advantage to quiet, nearly invisible, highly motivated sockpuppets over noisy editors like JDiala. Regarding "X do not go out to murder Y because they are Y", quotes from award winning Israeli journalists like Amira Hass are normally acceptable on Wikipedia. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Regarding The Kip's objection to the (evidence-free) labeling of someone as a suspected sockpuppet, this seems all well and good, and is consistent with AGF etc., but for me, it's another example of the fitness asymmetry between sockpuppets and noisy, undiplomatic editors like JDiala. Editors can't cast sock-related aspersions at AE, but undetected/unreported ban evading sockpuppets can make statements at AE. And as history shows, in the WP:PIA topic area, AE attracts socks. This seems problematic and difficult to solve. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC) I wonder what the views would be here if JDiala had never posted any personal views to a talk page and only made content edits. Is the issue what an editor believes or what an editor says in discussions? If it is the latter, couldn't there be a PIA remedy between a warning and a topic ban that formally promotes WP:TALKPOV from a guideline to a policy for an editor as a step before a topic ban. That kind of WP:TALKPOV-as-policy remedy is effectively already enforced for non-EC editors posting to PIA talk pages. Comments that are just personal opinions about the real world have a near-zero survival rate. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:54, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by kashmiriWhile certainly not raising to the level of an immediate block, the continuous low-lewel disruption by JDiala, evidenced above, has been annoying enough to many editors, including to me, that a temporary TBAN feels like an appropriate response. — kashmīrī TALK 17:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by ZanaharyVery BATTLEGROUND-y in a way that is disruptive. I'd support a TBAN. On the user page quote: though I find the quote disgusting, and my interpretation of its presence on the user page is, to say the least, not positive, I don't believe in trying to interpret editors' views when it comes to making decisions about how to treat them, nor in sanctioning editors for their apparent views—I think sanctions should only be practical, and I think everyone has the right to whatever expressions and whatever impressions they desire (out of article-space). But I understand I'm in a serious minority there (right?). Anyways, that's all irrelevant. This user is disruptive and clearly doesn't edit with the care and spirit of collaboration that this topic area demands. Zanahary (talk) 23:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Coffee CrumbsFor the record, I'm at least slightly involved now as I have expressed dislike of JDiala's tone during the current RFC. As Kashmiri notes, it's not vandalism or one big blowup, but tiny bits of pecking away. The RFC close was absolutely atrocious; rather than see an unusually sparsely attended RFC on what is normally a well-attended topic, JDiala took it upon themself to close their own RFC in favor of their own proposal in an extremely contentious area. Between the quotes that ended up at ANI and the constant pushing of the singular subject as far as civility and stretching WP:NPOV like taffy, JDiala's a net negative in this area. Justifying their extreme one-sided behavior towards Israel by saying that there are "other states like China and Russia, while awful, are significantly richer and more interesting societies" and then comparing the idea of having a proper RFC to Israel's response when settlers' war crimes are alleged, is just more gasoline on the fire. Real WP:BATTLEGROUND stuff here. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammal
BilledMammal (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The KipI've had little to no direct interactions with the user in question prior to today - I believe the closest I've come was voting to overturn the questionable RfC closure on account of it being a self-close in a CTOP. Upon interacting with their talk page (in a notice to move their comments in other users' sections above), I personally don't believe dismissing RSes as wholly unreliable due to being "sourced from Israel," nor referring to above complainants as "opponents," is indicative of one who will contribute constructively and cooperatively in the area over the long term; there certainly seems to be a considerable WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset at play. The Kip (contribs) 05:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Red Rock CanyonI am not involved in this case, but I saw this user's edits on the Leo Frank talk page. [19] is a lie, since even the line in the lead had another source right before the CNN one. It is not credible that they somehow missed it. And this [20] is worse. I see that this editor was already warned for these comments, but I think the warning is insufficient. They should not be allowed to edit any article that has anything to do with Jews. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 11:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierI have had a couple of differences with this editor but over content only. Should really dial the rhetoric back a couple of notches or a sanction is a foregone conclusion. Selfstudier (talk) 17:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by LonghornsgThese additional diffs from a few days ago leave a lot to be desired on WP:NOTFORUM and WP:CIVILITY. Longhornsg (talk) 03:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by MakeandtossI have dealt with JDiala and they were very open to discussion on the talk page. Over the past few months I have personally witnessed firsthand how quick they improved their behavior as soon as they were notified about a guideline or policy that they had not been aware about. I think it is a learning experience for them and so far they have shown no disruptive behavior of the sort that requires anything beyond a notification or a warning. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishJust noting that I'm staying out of this since some of the recent stuff deals with their response to my close of the close review at AN and their behavior on my talk page. Although I don't see myself as INVOLVED since it looks like there's some engagement from other uninvolved admins it's probably best to let them handle it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by ABHammadI believe the diffs presented above demonstrate a pattern of deeply inflammatory, battleground behavior in this topic area that unfortunately, wouldn't be solved by just a temporary topic ban. The recurring use of problematic language over the past decade, throughout the past few months and even in this very discussion, suggests the need for a reset, focusing on positive contributions elsewhere. I believe this would improve the current state of this topic area, which, at the moment, suffers from significant battleground behavior and neutrality issues. ABHammad (talk) 07:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by ArkonCan the admins maybe stop dragging their feet and do something here? It's almost enabling at this point. Arkon (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by UnbanditoI felt that I should point out that JDiala has made significant, enduring contributions on the mainspace, particularly at Israel-Hamas war, that have made the article better as a whole. Their edits on that page remain 93% un-reverted. Whatever other issues exist with their conduct, I don't think it could be said that JDiala is here only to argue, or use Wikipedia as a battleground or forum. They are clearly invested in the project, and perhaps some leniency is justified on those grounds. Unbandito (talk) 01:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Result concerning JDiala
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Dustfreeworld
Dustfreeworld is indefinitely topic banned from medical topics, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:29, 6 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dustfreeworld
Discussion concerning DustfreeworldStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DustfreeworldFor pt 1, the 1st diff, my paraphrased ES:
All contentious labels I removed were supported by non-MEDRS sources (>10 years or opinion pieces / blog posts of maybe COI authors (e.g., David of SBM). For pt 2, the 2nd diff, my ES (tag subpar sources per policies, consensus, & potential derogatory claims from maybe COI of SBM):
FYI, it’s made before the one above, i.e. I tagged before I removed (not needed per WP:PROVEIT, a section of WP:V; I tagged first just for transparency). For pt 3, all edits on 4/6 were reverted, & my response (another ES, prior to the above 2) to “overtag” (“overtag” because many dated sources, & switched to section tag from inline tag):
My edits’re *not* “pro fringe whitewash” as the OP claimed, (& I've never tried Reiki, not a proponent, & don’t have any RL association with it). Edits are based on consensus on NPOVN: And our WP:V policy (WP:PROVEIT), WP:V#What_counts_as_a_reliable_source, WP:V#Best_sources & WP:BESTSOURCES (in WP:NPOV; as opposed to poor sources). (Article’s talk page: [30]. Further, this is the main reason for my edits. Reiki is a relatively safe practice of which the practitioners haven't claimed their practice as "scientific". We shouldn’t state potentially false claims from advocates, against them in Wikivoice). The OP's claim is untrue. Thx. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 01:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by MrOllieDustfreeworld's own statements in response to this report are plenty to demonstrate the problem here. The ideas expressed above include: that Wikipedia cannot acknowledge that Reiki is pseudoscience and quackery for fear of damaging the reputation of Reiki practitioners, and that a surgical oncologist has a conflict of interest on the subject by virtue of their profession. This shows a lack of competence to edit in this topic area. I would suggest a topic ban from altmed, broadly construed. - MrOllie (talk) 21:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by AndyTheGrumpGiven the attempt by Dustfreeworld at WP:NPOVN to argue in favour of parity between knowledge and ignorance on the basis that doing otherwise might upset someone's feelings, [32] I'd have to suggest that the scope of the obviously necessary topic ban needs to be broad. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Dustfreeworld
|
Skitash
Skitash and Stephan rostie are reminded to follow 1RR, to bring up possible violations at the editor's talk page to allow for self-reversion, to self-revert when in violation, and generally not to edit war. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Skitash
Skitash reverted me at two different times in the same contentious topic article at two different unrelated sections, one in the lead and the other in another section. After his first revert i added a new content in unrelated section in the same article but he reverted me for the second time. After each of them i opened a talk section regarding his reverts, he didn’t reply in the to the first talk section about his own revert despite mentioning him, in the second talks section about his second revert i notified him about his 1RR violation following his second revert where he replied but seemingly ignored what i said about the 1RR violation.
Discussion concerning SkitashStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Skitash@ScottishFinnishRadish I didn't realize initially that I had violated the rule, and I also seem to have overlooked the part in Stephan rostie's message that mentioned a potential WP:1RR violation. I could self-revert if that solves the issue, but I'm uncertain whether this is necessary, considering that this edit dispute took place over 48 hours ago. Could you please clarify if the rule still applies in this case? Skitash (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierSkitash seemingly not aware so posted notice. OK, so not officially aware and no opportunity on users talk for self revert, so free pass this time. Complainant, ensure awareness and allow for self revert before filing future complaints. Selfstudier (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammalNote that both parties violated WP:1RR here. Stephan rostie violated it with:
Skitash is already documented. BilledMammal (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Skitash
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Pofka
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Pofka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – -- Pofka (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- I was topic banned from Lithuania, broadly construed.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Proof that Barkeep49 was informed by me about this appeal.
Statement by Pofka
Hello, I was topic banned from Lithuania in early January 2024 (see: HERE) due to my expressed opinion in a discussion (see: HERE) in which I stated that the Holocaust in Lithuania was executed by Nazis (who occupied Lithuania) and Lithuanian Nazi collaborators, but not by the State of Lithuania, which at the time was occupied by Nazis. The request to sanction me (see: HERE) did not include any of mine changes in English Wikipedia's articles, so I was sanctioned purely for expressing my opinion there, but not for POV pushing in any articles. Moreover, I was never before sanctioned for Holocaust-related changes in articles/discussions and as far as I remember I was not even reported for that during over 13 years of participation in Wikipedia before this. I was previously sanctioned quite long time ago for wrongly describing other editors mass removal of content from articles as "vandalism" (and reverting it) and for personal attacks against a user with whom I did not agree in topics not related with the Holocaust (I still have active interaction ban with that user, which I did not violate).
For contributing exceptionally high-quality content to the English Wikipedia about Lithuania (see examples: HERE) I was recognized in 2022 as one of only two best editors in "Lithuania" topic (see: HERE, the other identically recognized editor is sysop Renata3).
Over 6 months had already passed after this sanction was applied to me and I did not violate it. However, my aim in English Wikipedia always was to contribute high-quality content about Lithuania and with this broadly construed sanction active I simply cannot contribute anything to English Wikipedia in a field where I have exceptional knowledge of information and sources (due to my extensive capability to research Lithuanian language sources, etc.), so for me this sanction is equal to a total block in English Wikipedia and I believe that it is too strict given all the circumstances. Sadly, with this broadly construed sanction in Lithuania's topic active I plan to quit Wikipedia completely.
Consequently, I appeal this sanction and request to reconsider it and to allow me to again contribute exceptionally high-quality content about Lithuania. I would like to stress that I never had plans to POV push malicious content about the Holocaust in Lithuania and I fully condemn horrific crimes which were committed against Jewish people in Lithuania (including those that were committed by Lithuanian nationality representatives). If Barkeep49 and other participants of this request procedure think that I am not trustworthy enough to edit articles related with the Holocaust in Lithuania, I request to at least narrow this broadly construed sanction to "anything related with the Holocaust in Lithuania" because per report this imposed sanction is not associated with other Lithuania-related topics (e.g. Lithuanian sports, culture, etc.). -- Pofka (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Barkeep49
Just noting that this sanction was placed by me, acting on behalf of ArbCom acting as its own AE. As such I think it can be appealed and considered as any other AE placed topic ban would be. A major factor here was what had occurred after a previous topic ban was lifted. Beyond that while I'm happy to answer questions, I'll leave it to uninvolved administrators to consider the appeal. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Pofka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by MKW100
Pofka used contribute nearly endless HIGH QUALITY EDITS in the Lithuania topic and was OFFICIALLY RECOCGNIZED as a FINEST EDITOR in this topic. Banning him from the same is a contradiction. Since 99% of his overall edits happened to be in the Lithuania topic, of course this is the topic where any type of conflict could appear at all.
Banning him from his topic of expertise equals like a global perma ban to him. Obviously, this punishment is way too harsh, and his finest editor status was not considered in the first discussion.
(see)
In this almost automatic process, nobody defended pofka's position in the first discussion.
I hope we can get a different result this time. MKW100 (talk) 19:42, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)
Result of the appeal by Pofka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'm generally favorable to loosening the tban to the holocaust in Lithuania, but I'd like to hear a bit more from people with more familiarity with the situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm in the same boat as SFR. I see that at least one Arb considered narrowing the TBAN to Holocaust topics, but they rejected that option given that the full TBAN's successful appeal had been approved partially on WP:ROPE grounds. If we grant such a narrowing here, I'd want it to explicitly note that it's based on similar grounds, meaning that future problematic edits or comments in the broader Lithuania topic area would likely result in a restoration of the full TBAN or a site block. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am mostly uninvolved with Lithuanian topics, and I remain concerned about this editor's appeal. The whole tone here is that "I got topic banned because I voiced an opinion" which is not how I read the conversations about the topic ban. I'm not seeing anything about how they are going to change going forward to avoid the issues that originally came up. And I'm also a bit concerned about the whole "For contributing exceptionally high-quality content to the English Wikipedia about Lithuania ... I was recognized in 2022 as one of only two best editors in "Lithuania" topic..." which award is actually one of Gerda's "precious" awards which are not "officially recognized" awards of any kind. They are just Gerda's view of something. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I did mostly gloss over that puffery. I think their point about being sanctioned for expressing their opinion at ARCA, as opposed to being involved in any problematic article editing, is correct. As far as I can tell, they were sanctioned because their opinion was broadly held to be incorrect, and distastefully so. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I also agree with ScottishFinnishRadish: I am not prepared to lift the topic-ban entirely at this stage, but I agree it may be overbroad. As an analogy, if an American editor proved unable to edit neutrally about some aspect of American history, we might topic-ban them from that aspect or conceivably from American history as a whole; it is less likely we would topic-ban them from "articles concerning the United States, broadly construed." Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Dylanvt
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Dylanvt
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Dylanvt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Violated 1RR at:
- Nuseirat refugee camp massacre:
- 01:22, 9 June 2024 (partial revert of 00:01, 9 June 2024)
- 13:08 to 13:15, 9 June 2024 (reverts of various edits, including these)
- When asked to self-revert refused, and instead made another revert in violation of 1RR (13:02, 10 June 2024; reverted 08:01, 10 June 2024)
- 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation:
- 19:13, 8 June 2024 (reverted 18:38, 8 June 2024)
- 13:32, 9 June 2024 (reverted 04:40, 9 June 2024)
- When asked to self-revert refused, and instead made another revert in violation of 1RR (13:08, 10 June 2024; reverted 10:58, 10 June 2024)
- Only agreed to self-revert once an admin asked them to.
- Only agreed to self-revert once an admin asked them to; they were unable to as the page had been protected because of the edit warring.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 12:03, 13 May 2024 Warned to
mind 1RR in the ARBPIA topic area, and remedy any violations as soon as possible when they are pointed out
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 07:36, 22 December 2023 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- @Dylanvt: I didn't raise the reverts at Tel al-Sultan massacre; that was HaOfa. BilledMammal (talk) 14:27, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Your talk page is on my watchlist; when you incorrectly claimed an exception to 1RR I tried to help by explaining what the actual exceptions are.
- Regarding Nuseirat refugee camp massacre, I only noticed the violations because I was trying to find the editor that introduced the WP:CATPOV issues; I then checked your recent contributions to see if it was an isolated incident and found it was not. BilledMammal (talk) 14:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Dylanvt: How did you expect an uninvolved editor or admin to
pass judgement
when you removed the requests to self-revert? BilledMammal (talk) 16:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Dylanvt: How did you expect an uninvolved editor or admin to
- @Ivanvector: For example, they deny that 01:22, 9 June 2024 and 13:02, 10 June 2024 at Nuseirat refugee camp massacre are reverts, but both
manually reverse other editors' actions
by (among other things) removing clarification that the Gaza Health Ministry is controlled by Hamas (Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry
→Gazan Health Ministry
,Hamas Health Ministry
→Health Ministry
) - Bright-line violations are disruptive by definition, but repeatedly removing clarification that multiple editors believe is required is disruptive even without that context. BilledMammal (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: That's not accurate. I've requested self-reverts from two editors who violated 1RR while removing it from that article, including Dylanvt, and one who violated 1RR adding it. As a general note, I'm good at noticing 1RR violations, but not perfect - I do miss some, although in this case you haven't linked any that I did miss. BilledMammal (talk) 15:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Ealdgyth: I bring them up to show a pattern, having previously been told that demonstrating a pattern is useful. In general, I do try to avoid coming here; had Dylanvt not removed my requests to self-revert I probably would still be on their talk page trying to explain why these edits were a violation. For an extreme example of this, see this discussion with Irtapil - where an admin in fact told me that I should have brought the issue here sooner. BilledMammal (talk) 15:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: You proposed the gentleman's agreement here; it was linked at the Irtapil discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 16:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier: At the risk of engaging with content, as far as I know the only formal discussion regarding whether we provide context around the relationship between Hamas and the GHM found that we should. BilledMammal (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Dylanvt
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Dylanvt
The edits billedmammal linked are not reversions, they are merely edits made to the articles. He even went scrolling back two weeks into my edit history to bring up old and already resolved actions. If you look at my edit history you will see I'm clearly not engaged in edit warring on any of the articles he linked.
- Nuseirat refugee camp massacre first "revert". An editor added "according to the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry" and I later removed only "Hamas-run", not a revert, just a small contribution to an article that was about six hours old. And it is common practice in articles in this topic not to write "Hamas-run" before every mention of the health ministry.
- Nuseirat refugee camp massacre second "revert". Yes, this was a revert, and the only one I made on the page in a 24-hour span (specifically, re-adding the "reactions" section, and removing the "cleanup" tag).
- Nuseirat refugee camp massacre third "revert". First, this is 24 hours after the last one, so couldn't be a violation of 1RR. Second, it's not clear what this is a reversion of. The text removed was mathematically contradictory and nonsensical ("killing more than 30 people, including 12 women and children and around 30 militants"). When it was rewritten in a much clearer way shortly after I removed it, I didn’t touch it, because now it makes sense ("targeting 20-30 Hamas Nukhba militants... Local health officials reported the deaths of more than 30 people, including 12 women and children").
- 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation first "revert". Like the first one above, this is clearly not a revert. I merely replaced "Hamas-run" with "Gaza's". If that's a revert then every edit (that doesn't add new information) is a revert, since every edit is a change of something previously written.
- 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation second "revert". Also not a revert. I simply reworded to more neutral wording. The information added by David O. Johnson's edit (the IDF casualty claim) I did not touch. I simply adjusted the way it was introduced, from the less neutral "The death toll is disputed, with A claiming B and C claiming D" to the more neutral "A reports B. C claims D." Clearly not a revert.
- 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation third "revert". This is the first and only actual revert I've made on that page. In any case, I reverted to the status quo, which had been removed without discussion. It's now been removed again without discussion, so instead of reverting again, I've started a discussion which will result in it being restored.
- The other two articles were already discussed and resolved on talk page. No idea why they're being brought up again.
Ultimately I think everybody's time would be better served by making actual contributions to Wikipedia, instead of wasting everybody's time with petty punitive arbitration. When BilledMammal brought up the reversions I'd made at Tel al-Sultan massacre, e.g., it contributed nothing to the project and instead resulted in me being forced to move the article back to the wrong title in the middle of a move discussion, creating havoc in the talk page for everyone involved, when instead we could have just moved on and continued to do useful things for the project. Dylanvt (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, he didn't raise the concerns, but he contributed to the discussion, joining in just 2 minutes after my initial reply. It seems pretty apparent that he's just waiting and watching for any inkling of a violation so he can swoop in and warn and report people. Dylanvt (talk) 14:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish:, a gentleman's agreement would be great, I agree. Yet in every case I've waited for someone less involved (and/or an admin) to pass judgment, because I've seen that warnings like this are often weaponized, as you say, by people with opposing viewpoints and agendas. Dylanvt (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I didn't know that officially reporting people for abuse of 1RR complaints was an option before today. I'll do that in the future as needed. As anyone can tell from my edit history, I'm very new to "contentious issue" editing and also for pretty much all of my 12-ish years on Wikipedia have never been involved in any of this under-the-hood stuff. Dylanvt (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I also still don't see how edits like this one count as reverts. If Editor A writes in a (very young and rapidly changing) article, e.g.,
Putin's government passed law X [ref1]
, and Editor B goes in many edits later and changes it toThe Russian government passed law X [ref1]
... That's really considered a revert? Because that's what the above edit was. Dylanvt (talk) 19:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)there's a pretty significant difference between the two, same as attributing something to Putin rather than Russia, or Biden rather than the US
No there's very much not a significant difference. Hamas is a political party. Putin and Biden are leaders of political parties. Even if you think that difference is significant, I can just give an even more comparable example:According to the United Russia-run government media office
being changed toAccording to the Russian government media office
. There's no way it can be argued that that change is a "revert". If it were, then every edit would be a revert. Dylanvt (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I also still don't see how edits like this one count as reverts. If Editor A writes in a (very young and rapidly changing) article, e.g.,
- Okay. I didn't know that officially reporting people for abuse of 1RR complaints was an option before today. I'll do that in the future as needed. As anyone can tell from my edit history, I'm very new to "contentious issue" editing and also for pretty much all of my 12-ish years on Wikipedia have never been involved in any of this under-the-hood stuff. Dylanvt (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- That’s not at all what I said. The difference between “Hamas-run” and “Gazan/Gaza’s” is significant. It’s the two scenarios that I said aren’t significantly different. Namely, the one in my edit (Hamas-run to Gaza’s) vs. the one in my example (Putin’s to Russian).
- (I’m writing this as a reply because I’m on mobile now and it’s complicated to do it the other way.) Dylanvt (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Ivanvector
Posting up here because I suppose I'm involved - I initially restored the edit which Dylanvt is now accused of edit-warring over at Genocide of Indigenous peoples. I don't think any admin did advise them to self-revert; if BilledMammal is referring to my comments on the edit war I said that I was ignoring it and had started an RFC instead but I didn't tell anyone to do anything; the page was then full-protected by PhilKnight.
In looking for that warning I went to Dylanvt's talk page and reviewed this warning and discussion, which was regarding the edits listed above on Tel al-Sultan massacre, in which BilledMammal and ScottishFinnishRadish demanded that Dylanvt self-revert a page move which was a 1RR violation. It is accurate to say that Dylanvt refused, but that also grossly oversimplifies the situation: Dylanvt had good reason to refuse, as there was an ongoing discussion about the move and at least one other editor (Vanilla Wizard) objected to reverting because of the ongoing discussion. As Dylanvt tried to explain, a separate move review had directed that the article be kept at that title pending the result of the ongoing discussion, and had Dylanvt reverted their move someone else would just have to move it back per WP:TITLECHANGES. Eventually, after more IDHT and bullying from BM and SFR, Dylanvt did revert their move, which as predicted created a technical mess which had to be reverted again by a different administrator, who cited the exact rationale Dylanvt had been trying to explain the whole time. It was all a bureaucratic waste of everyone's time because two experienced editors care more about enforcing one particular rule because "it's teh rulez" rather than use some discretion and common sense (we have WP:IAR for a reason).
I see that trend repeating in the report here. BilledMammal has gone out of their way to classify these edits as "reverts" when, as Dylanvt also has tried to explain, they are edits in the course of constructing a rapidly developing article being edited by many editors at the same time, and happen to have changed information added by someone else previously. By that overly-broad definition, nearly every edit to these articles since their creation is a revert; of course they are not, this is just the normal editorial process. The 1RR rule is meant to limit disruption; these edits were decidedly not disruptive. The rule is certainly not meant to be a "gotcha!" rule whereby any two edits that look superficially similar can be used to eject an editor from a topic, nor is it meant to be used as a tool for harassment as seems to be happening here.
The edit war on Genocide of Indigenous peoples was actually a revert war (in that case Dylanvt was intentionally undoing a previous edit, as was I) but that situation was dealt with. We can waste more time bureaucratically arguing over whether or not the highlighted edits to the other pages are reverts to the extent that the policy is violated (they aren't) or we could skip all that and simply acknowledge that no disruption has occurred. In fact the situation would be greatly improved overall if BilledMammal were sanctioned against anything to do with 1RR enforcement in this topic. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I also see that BilledMammal was warned in the closing statement of a separate report still visible on this page against "weaponizing arbitration enforcement". It should be observed that the dispute (which is hardly even a dispute) at Nuseirat refugee camp massacre is over whether or not to qualify the Gazan Health Ministry as being "Hamas-run". Dylanvt started a discussion on that article's talk page to seek consensus on the matter, in which BilledMammal is (as of this edit) the only editor suggesting that it should be qualified. Observe that BilledMammal has issued 1RR warnings to three editors besides Dylanvt who removed the qualification, and has issued no warnings to editors who added or restored it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad: (and others): by Ealdgyth's reading from the 3RR policy, yes, despite the interaction being entirely civil and constructive and arriving at a consensus stable edit, Y is in violation of this stupidly-defined bright-line rule. The idea that the proper approach to this normal and expected editorial process is to demand editor Y self-revert under threat of sanction and wait for someone else to make the obvious and not-contested compromise edit (or else wait 24 hours) is asinine. If that puts me in a position of "second guessing the Committee" then consider yourselves second-guessed. But we have a slightly different situation here anyway: we have an article with
A, B, and C.
and in a separate section,D, E, and F.
. Editor X changes the first bit toA.
, editor Y reverts, editor X restores their version, then both editors leave the section sayingA.
and move to the talk page to discuss. Then later the same day, editor Q changes the second part toD.
and editor Y reverts. Editor Y has reverted twice in the same day, though each is unrelated to the other. Now is editor Y in violation of 1RR? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC) - @ScottishFinnishRadish: one more hypothetical, and then I promise I have a meeting to get to and won't keep on this. Say in the example above, editors X and Y have left the article reading
A.
and have discussed their compromise on the talk page, run a quick straw poll in which 100 editors support the compromise (it's the fastest and most well attended straw poll in the history of Wikipedia), and following an experienced and respected neutral observer closing the discussion as obvious consensus for the edit, editor Y implements the compromise; this all happens within 22 hours. For how long should editor Y, the monster, be blocked for this flagrant violation of the letter of 1RR? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier
I know content is not the thing here but this nonsense with the GHM needs to be resolved once for all. Afaik, across various discussions at articles and at noticeboards, it has been resolved and the consensus is that the GHM is reliable and editors that persist in adding "Hamas run" in front of that are only intending to provoke/cast doubt on that assessment, attribution to GHM is all that is needed, nothing more. So on the behavioral front, while in general it would be better to ignore the provocation and start a talk page discussion, I do sympathize with removing the unnecessary. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_418#Are Hamas and Gaza ministry numbers reliable? The sources are clear cut on this issue. Selfstudier (talk) 17:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Dylanvt
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll start with a quick reply to Ivanvector about the request to self-revert. If we allowed every editor to break 1RR on the basis of policy as they see it then 1RR becomes worthless. WP:3RRNO and WP:CTOP outline what is exempt from 1RR and move-warring based on WP:TITLECHANGES isn't covered. If the issue was covered by policy and needed to be moved back it would have been moved by another editor (as it was) without anyone breaking 1RR.WP:CTOP also contains under Dismissing an enforcement request,
Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions.
The Arbitration Committee placed the topic area under blanket 1RR. Arbitration enforcement isn't the place to say, "sure, it's a 1RR breach but it's not very bad so meh." The threshold for not sanctioning a violation isthe consensus of uninvolved administrators is that exceptional circumstances are present, which would make the imposition of a sanction inappropriate
.The said I haven't taken the time to review these specific allegations of a violation, although I'll try to get to that soon as to avoid another multi-week clusterfuck. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)- Dylanvt, what you do is self-revert right away and if it turns out it wasn't a violation and there's a pattern of that you come here and say "they're abusing requests to self-revert" and they get banned from 1rr reports or topic banned. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, yes. That is two reverts. Same as 3RR, reverts are by article, not by specific content. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, I wouldn't block for that, but I would expect them to self-revert if there was an objection and ask one of the hundred other editors engaged in the topic to make the edit, or wait a couple hours. No deadline and all that.
- Dylanvt, there's a pretty significant difference between the two, same as attributing something to Putin rather than Russia, or Biden rather than the US. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Dylanvt, if it isn't a significant difference then why did you change it? The fact that it's edit warred over is a clear demonstration that people believe the specific wording matters. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, going by Wikipedia:Edit warring, under WP:3RR which defines the term "revert" for the WP:1RR rule, a revert is "any edit (or administrative action) that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, and whether performed using undo, rollback, or done so completely manually". So, yes, this edit is the first revert - it changed the article partially back to a previous version. So when this edit was then made by Dylanvt within 24 hours of the first revert, it broke 1RR. The fact that I think the actual definition of a revert is stupid has no bearing on both those edits actually being reverts. I do, however, know that there is a great deal of confusion about this whole situation about what qualifies as a revert. (And I acknowledge that I may actually have this wrong, that's how screwy things are with this whole definition of revert) So I'm not thinking this needs any sort of giant punishment, but a warning is probably an acceptable situation. I'm not going to get into the other diffs raised because frankly - the edits from 27 May are old enough I'm not feeling the need to deal with them and they bring up point #2 I'd like to say.And that is, BilledMammal - on 4 June I addressed you with this diff at SFR's talk page where I advised you that you need to learn to let things go. The diffs you brought up here from 27 May are an excellent example of why I made that comment at SFR's talk page - these 27 May diffs feel like "someone trying desperately to find ANYTHING that can possibly stick". My advice is to .. not bring anyone to AE for a month. At least. You're overdoing it and frankly, you're about to get totally banned from AE reporting if you can't grasp that you need to learn to just let things go a bit. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- On the topic of
The fact that I think the actual definition of a revert is stupid has no bearing on both those edits actually being reverts. I do, however, know that there is a great deal of confusion about this whole situation about what qualifies as a revert. (And I acknowledge that I may actually have this wrong, that's how screwy things are with this whole definition of revert)
, that is why I suggested a gentleman's agreement back in (I think) December to request a self-revert on user talk pages, and to revert your own reported 1RR violations. Better safe than sorry, it's easy to make mistakes on fast moving articles, and it can be confusing. Unfortunately the BATTLEGROUND tendencies make this difficult because it's normally someone on "the other side" requesting a revert and how dare they! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- On the topic of
- I am starting to think that applying the definition of "revert" developed for 3RR in the context of 1RR is problematic. Suppose an article under 1RR says
A, B, and C
. Editor X changes it to justA
. Editor Y reverts toA, B, and C
. Editor X reverts toA
with the edit summaryC isn't true
. Editor Y then changes it toA and B
with the edit summaryokay, we'll leave out C, but restoring B which no one disagrees with
. All this happens within the space of a day. Has Y violated 1RR, and if she technically has, would other admins feel the need to do anything about it? Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)- Generally such compromises don't get reported. It is certainly an issue with fast moving articles, though. That's the rub with 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- (This is moving in the direction of a general discussion of enforcement philosophy rather than the specifics of this request, so I'd be open to moving it elsewhere.) There always remains the question of literal versus more flexible interpretation, especially where the letter of a ruling has been violated but its spirit has not been. It bears emphasis that no set of rules, whether simple or complicated, can anticipate in advance every situation that might later arise. As I have in the past, I refer everyone to my essay here, or better still to the best law review article ever. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- The solution isn't to make the rule more wishy-washy, and make editors unsure of it will apply. That's why it's a bright-line rule. If they had said no to the water at the beginning there wouldn't have been a problem. You're suggesting the path that leads to milkshakes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- (This is moving in the direction of a general discussion of enforcement philosophy rather than the specifics of this request, so I'd be open to moving it elsewhere.) There always remains the question of literal versus more flexible interpretation, especially where the letter of a ruling has been violated but its spirit has not been. It bears emphasis that no set of rules, whether simple or complicated, can anticipate in advance every situation that might later arise. As I have in the past, I refer everyone to my essay here, or better still to the best law review article ever. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Generally such compromises don't get reported. It is certainly an issue with fast moving articles, though. That's the rub with 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
KronosAlight
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning KronosAlight
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Dylanvt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- KronosAlight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Well isn't this ironic. The fac Violated 1RR at: 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation
- 08:02, 11 June 2024 Partial revert of this and this.
- 20:55, 10 June 2024 Revert of this.
- 20:26, 10 June 2024 Combined revert of this and this.
- 14:03, 10 June 2024 Partial revert of this.
- 13:49, 10 June 2024 Partial revert of this.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation&diff=prev&oldid=1228299764 13:46, 10 June 2024] Revert of this and partial revert of this and this and this and this and this.
- 07:39, 11 June 2024 Revert of this and this.
- 14:52, 10 June 2024 Combined partial revert of this and this and this and this and this.
Nuseirat refugee camp massacre
- 08:14, 10 June 2024] Partial revert of this.
- 08:01, 10 June 2024 Combined partial and complete reverts of this and this and this and this and this and this and this.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 20:35, 28 March 2024 Indefinitely topic banned from "flood myths".
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 00:06, 11 June 2024 (see the system log linked to above). When I explained that they were constrained by 1RR and must self-revert their response was "No." They didn't dispute that they had violated 1RR or indicate that they did not understand it in any way. They simply flat-out refused.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
KronosAlight also has a history of making incendiary, belligerent, aspersive, and off-topic comments on talk pages.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
here.
Discussion concerning KronosAlight
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Statement by KronosAlight
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Result concerning KronosAlight
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.