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September 12

undergraduate business courses for career in banking/finance

I have my eye on a career in the banking/finance field. My second preference would be working in an auditing/tax/financial advisory firm. I'm in year 2, not too sure about my job, but I'm planning in advance about my future courses. I will have a limited number of elective courses for my bachelor degree in business and I must choose a few subjects (among many) so that my business degree will have a focus on something (instead of just a "general" business degree). I am leaning towards accounting and finance subjects, but that's a lot. I have some questions for a better short list:

Is a course on monetary economics particulary relevant for a banking career? I heard some say that monetary economics is not difficult and reading a textbook will do? Is that true?

Financial accouting or management accouting? Which of these two is a better set of courses for my career field of interest?

How relevant is Auditing knowledge to banking? What about taxation? What about Cost management? If I must choose between those three, which path will be most benificial for my intended career field?

thank you very much 210.245.10.203 (talk) 05:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I know nothing about business or finance, but I do know a thing or two about picking classes, so here's my stab at it. Your school probably has class advisors/career counsellors/business dept people who will be able to help you the best with this, since they'll know what all the options are at your school and will know what classes you'll need either for further education or a particular career. If you're not sure what person would be the best to talk to or how to contact them, my personal experience is that starting at the registrar's office and going from there is usually helpful. They'll be able to direct you to whoever can answer your questions well. Also, try talking to one of your professors who specializes in the field you want to go into. They'll have experience and knowledge in that field and will be able to tell you what will be most useful to you. 75.159.150.149 (talk) 22:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Corporate parenthood

Has a corporation ever been legally declared a parent (and not just a guardian) of an individual? NeonMerlin[1] 07:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the answer is no in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter). You probably need to tease out what exactly you mean by both "corporation" and by "parent." The state regularly assumes a parental role over children, in probably all nations, and perhaps specific offices (although probably part of the state) will be guardians of children. I haven't conducted a 52 jurisdiction review, but my instinct is no state allows parental rights to a non-individual. The Truman Show was a bit too soon. Shadowjams (talk) 09:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Is sex protection needed in the following situation?

In a relationship between two guys who are both are free of sexually transmitted diseases, and both don't have sex with anyone else, is unprotected sex okay? Like, are there still any significant risks involved that the use of a condom could protect against in a situation like this? 162.84.129.238 (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We cannot give medical advice. I suggest you talk to a doctor. You can usually do so completely confidentially and it doesn't generally need to be your usual doctor. --Tango (talk) 19:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Kainaw's Dictatorium makes it clear that this is an OK question for us to answer. Tempshill (talk) 21:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The simple answer is, NO, it's not necessarily safe. See your doctor for further information. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Depends how much you trust each other not to shag aboutAllanHainey (talk) 19:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Activities that involve the sharing of body fluids all have their hazards. Condoms can likely reduce them (I give out a few free every Saturday volunteering for Planned Parenthood), but you really want to talk to a real doctor about this. (I'm thinking of a halftime show many years ago where the Stanford Band, whilst the Cardinal were playing the USC Trojans, made a formation simulating the installation and usage of such a device.) PhGustaf (talk) 19:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Really? In America? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It comes down to three simple things:

1. Are you 100% sure both are clean? (Some STDs can be hard to detect for long periods of time.)

2. Are you 100% sure both are not going to be having sex with anyone else? (I know it's a horrible thought, but it's what your doctor will say.)

3. Are you 100% sure both are not going to be exposed through a non-sexual route? (Neither use needles or in circumstances that would expose them.)

Those three conditions can never really be answered 100% positively in anyone, but depending on the people involved and their individual health and life circumstances (which we can't get into on here—that's the "medical advice" part we are avoiding), one can make estimations about what the risks are and what the trade-off is. In my experience, doctors are especially cautious about question #2—nobody expects their partners to sleep around, especially at early stages in their relationships, but obviously it happens a LOT more often than most people expect. I've had doctors who basically said to me that you can never make the assumption your spouse does not cheat, no matter who they are. I can see where that is a valid public health position, though it is not necessarily how one wants to live one's life.

It's always going to be a trade-off, no matter what you do. Nothing is 100% effective for avoiding STDs, not even true abstinence—there are non-sexual ways to get most of them too, however uncommon. The trick with sexual health (like many things) is to weigh what the appropriate trade-offs one makes between safety and living a worthwhile life are (at the extreme, living in a full-on latex suit is probably fairly safe, though a lousy trade off; on the other extreme, unprotected sex with many strangers is probably lots of fun, but not safe at all). This is not medical advice, and your situation will vary a lot, and discussing it with a doctor might help, though in my experience, doctors don't know all that much more unless they really know about you, your partner, your life histories, etc. (They do, of course, know the right questions to ask, most of the time.) And no, folks, I don't think that giving general public health information about how STDs spread and what kinds of social factors are involved for couples generically is "medical advice".) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

A gynaecologist I once worked for used to say that he did an STD check for every patient "outside of the nursery and the convent". That was 40 years ago. Now, he might even check them. // BL \\ (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Since this is a homosexual relationship there's also risks listed in anal sex#Health risks. --antilived^{T | C | G} 00:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Though, let's be honest, there are many heterosexuals who have anal sex, too. (And I'm not sure the specifics of anal sex risks are really what the questioner is asking about—which is about whether they need to use condoms or not, not whether they should have anal sex or not.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It's probably of some relevance since it increases the risk of successful transmission if one the partners does get a STD somehow. However as you say, this is not exclusive to male-male relationships nor is it something all male-male relationships will have to consider. Also the risks are high enough that relying on you not getting something from a regular partner whether its anal, vaginal and probably even oral sex is not a good idea Nil Einne (talk) 11:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Two words: Farrah Fawcett. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What she died from and cautions about what causes it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Anal sex is one of a number of risk factors for anal cancer; smoking is another. I'd be surprised if it's publicly known what the specific cause of FF's cancer was; I doubt we can put it down to anal sex. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we're getting OT here. The question was about two committed male partners not using condoms. It wasn't about the health risks of anal sex. Anal sex with multiple partners is a strong risk factor for anal cancer and is likely caused by HPV infection so using a condom should reduce the risk (although our article doesn't mention any specifics on the reduced risk). However the risk from unprotected sex with a committed partner, even one who cheats on you, is unclear and likely to be far less. As I've mentioned STDs or probably should have said STIs in general are one concern and the risk is increased when anal sex is involved, but I don't see any reason to single out anal cancer as a concern. Nil Einne (talk) 21:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As for Farrah Fawcett, I have to agree it was a completely irrelevant example. As far as I can tell, we have no idea if she ever even engaged in anal sex. If she did, there's nothing wrong with that, it is her private life, but saying someone who had anal cancer must have had anal sex is ridiculous. From what I can tell, it's not even certain if she has ever smoked [2] (it's likely but not definite). Remember we're talking about risk factors here. It doesn't mean you have to have any of the known risk factors to get the disease, your just much more likely if you do. If you aren't aware of any of this, you may want to read our articles on cancer and risk factor. And think about how you will feel if you or your family and friends ever get a disease and people say the person who got the disease must have done something they didn't do simply because they got a disease. Nil Einne (talk) 21:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If any anal activity is in the mix, intercourse or otherwise, there is the risk of various nasties that hang out where the sun don't shine. Hepatitis is the most common concern, but there are others. --Sean 13:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

are you saying farrah fawcett was killed by sex in the ass? i told my buddy (who is sitll in the bath with the oyster and has eaten some) and he says that is NOT TRUE. does anyone have a copy of her death certificate? Robo-Doug (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC) Ohhhh!!! are they saying that ass sex counts as "innovative treatment"?? You are surely a madman to say that Robo-Doug (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Your buddy would have no more certainty that that wasn't the cause of her cancer than Baseball Buggs has certainty that it was. Whether anal intercourse was a factor in her disease or not is something that only she and Ryan O'Neal and her medical advisers would know. I'm guessing they haven't broadcast the details of her sexual practices all over the internet. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Walking a mile in these (formal) shoes

I've been looking about for (mens) work/smart casual shoes recently & I've seen some really nice designer pairs, only they all have really thin smooth soles with no tread or grip, or just a tiny amount of grip. None of them look like you could walk a few miles in them regularly without them falling apart. Now these are £90 odd shoes, and for that money I'd expect shoes that'd last, are they really that fragile? Is there a general range as to how much walking (pavements) you can do in this type of shoes before they give out? as I regularly walk to & from work & walk home after a night out. I figure at most 5 miles a day. If such shoes do wear out how easy/pricey is it to resole them? AllanHainey (talk) 19:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You used to be able to get stick-on rubber soles to mend outdoor shoes with: I'm not sure if they're still made. However, if you're walking 5 miles a day, I'd seriously suggest you consider doing that amount of walking in proper walking shoes (training shoes). --TammyMoet (talk) 19:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I walk it in work shoes with proper soles with a good amount of tread on them, trainers wouldn't work for my place of employment or for going out. That said the shoes I've got aren't very dressy & I can't see any that are that look like you can walk in them. AllanHainey (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

For to-and-from work, a lot of people, male and female, wear proper walking shoes and then change footwear at the office. This is a bit trickier when going out fot the evening, but should extend the wear of your dressier shoes. // BL \\ (talk) 21:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I did consider that, it'd make it a bit more awkward to polish them but I may do that. AllanHainey (talk) 21:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That's my strategy. I keep the dress shoes at the office. There is a shoe-shine guy across the street who polishes them for a very modest fee. Maybe you can find one near you. Marco polo (talk) 02:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, Allan is probably in the UK (since he quoted cost in £s); unlike in the USA, street-based shoe-shine services have never been common in the UK, in fact I can't remember ever seeing one. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

My experience with ecco brand shoes has been very good. The dress models look good enough for business, and they have replaceable Vibram soles. $200US a pair isn't that bad, considering. Usual disclaimers. PhGustaf (talk) 03:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

With "designer" shoes (or any other such items of clothing) you're paying money mostly for the kudos of wearing a "fashionable" item, rather than necessarily for genuine high quality and robustness. "Dress" shoes are primarily designed to look good in formal (or "swanky") social occasions and possibly to facilitate dancing (hence the smooth soles), not to be hard wearing.

Although I'm primarily an office worker, my last couple of jobs (over 12 years) have involved going into workshops and other areas where safety shoes, with internal toe protectors and chemical-resistant soles, are mandatory wear (in the UK). I've found that such shoes are generally very comfortable, even for walking long distances, and hard wearing. The manufacturers' ranges generally include both slip-ons and lace-ups that look perfectly acceptable in the office and in most formal situations. They're not cheap, but of course if they're required for carrying out one's work duties, one's employer should both supply and pay for them, and many employers will allow you to buy additional pairs through them at the lower-than-retail prices they will have negotiated with the suppliers. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Try shoes with vibram soles. My favourite shoes of all time were Dr Martens (sp?) shoes with very thin - repeat very thin - but solid rubber soles. They were very comfortable, quite smart, and very long lasting (much more hard wearing than the thicker soled "airware" type which wear out quickly) because the solid rubber very thin soles would flex and stretch rather than crack when worn, which is what thick soles do. I wore them all day every day for a very long time before they gave out. Unfortunately they no longer seem to be any Dr Martens *thin* soled shoes being sold that I can find, and I did make enquiries some years ago - but maybe in the age of the internet someone might be able to find them? In any case, it used to be said that most people waklked around four or five miles a day just pottering around, but in these days of sitting at computers, I'm not so sure. I expect four pairs of £20 shoes would collectively last longer than one pair of £90 shoes. The secret to long lasting soles is not in having thick soles - because in actuality they are largly air and they split when worn - but in having a comparatively thin sole of solid - repeat solid - flexible rubber - not some plastic - which will flex rather than split and which probably after disregarding the air and the 'cardboard' typically found in thick soles actually have more substance to wear away anyway. Hence suggesting vibram shoes. Being a skinflint who walks a lot, I'd be very interested to find out which were the best value for money hardwearing smart shoes. You could try investigating shoes designed for the police or the armed services for example - I saw some so-called "dress uniform" RAF shoes on the internet that I rather liked. I do not think you need much or any of a tread for walking along the pavement. Edit: looking at some comments about the durability of Dr Martens what I would call thick soles, they seem to be reported as long-lasting by ladies who only wear them occassionally, and who I imagine being light in weight do not put strain on them. I remember other shoes that that were very long lasting, and the feature they had in common was comparatively thin soles that were solid rubber without air-pockets or cardboard anywhere in them, including not in the heel. Some manufacturer who makes genuinely long-lasting durable shoes is going to eventually get a lot of trade. 78.146.166.183 (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

what things influence you??

im doing a project for school and i need 15 things that influence me. Three of them have to have 3 positives and 3 negitives? you dont have to fiinish it all but has anyone got any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaylaf23 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

On top of not doing your homework for you, how are we supposed to know what influences you? Adam Bishop (talk) 23:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I recommend that you write down everything you can think of that influences you, then try to categorize them as "positives" or "negatives", and then select the subset that seems like it could work for the project. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If you're stumped by thinking about what "influence" means in this question, it could be something grand or something trivial or something silly: a particular preacher, writer or statesman; a book, film, show, song, TV character, video, poem or cartoon; family, friends, school; some embarrassing moment (for you or someone else) that you're determined never to repeat; the fear or love of something like speed or fire or funny smells. What's changed or reinforced the way you think or feel or behave? If the color red attracts or repels you, was there some reason or association? Your teacher's asking you to write down fifteen because it's hard to pin down any one influence, then you're being asked to pick the three that influenced you most positively and the three that influenced you most negatively. For heaven's sake, don't just take my list and copy it, because it's not a list of influences, it's a list of the kinds of things that influence many people; in your particular case, it's just a blind stab because I know nothing about you. And the things that have influenced you might be of a completely different nature. If after thinking about this, you find that (say) a pet or advertising or a particular commercial has influenced you significantly, put that down instead. —— Shakescene (talk) 00:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The easiest thing to do would just be to pay a little attention as you go through the next day or so. How do you come to decisions? --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Based on our only interaction with this person, I'd argue that one of their key influences by that definition is the Wikipedia Reference Desk. ;-) Jwrosenzweig (talk) 01:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I am influenced by my friend, the one in the bath of oysters, and also by my uncle jo as he is the wisest man ever to smoke a pipe. I also like a sunset and also smoking a pipe myself, especially if it's packed with rave puff. I am also influenced by metallica (esp metal in your ass!) and by the movie Jaws and in fact the novel and the fact that a diver like peter benchley could write such an awesome book and make an even better movie and make the world hate sharks, also that movie with hitler and dinosaurs. and in fact that other book about hitler where the second world war came out differently "Fatherland". Also the book by Umberto Eco where he's a monk and they all get killed in a fire. also one time I dropped these hella goofballs and I was drawing crazy pictrures. also actually a few more of my firends and this band called the Dark Horses that taught me to play my bass, and Les Claypool out of Primus. is that 15? Robo-Doug (talk) 20:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The Internet? Wikipedia? People on the reference desk? That's 3... Juliankaufman (talk) 20:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

September 13

personality psychology

In the personality psychology article it says that one branch of the subject has to do with "Constructing a coherent picture of a person and his or her major psychological processes". I'm interested in this area. Can someone recommend a reading list for this exact subject? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oniej42 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Bradberry, Travis. The Personality Code. New York: Putnam, 2007. Also, take a look at everything below Personality psychology#Notes, including References and Further reading Intelligentsium 17:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Breaking Kosher rules.

I'm simply curious, but if a Jew doesn't follow the rules of Kosher, what kind of punishment does he or she deserve? I hope this question doesn't seem Anti-Semetic in anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitefox (talk • contribs) 09:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Kosher laws were originally important for survival, e.g. not eating pork because it's too easily contaminated. If you're strict Orthodox Jewish, this is not even a question, it's just something you do. If you're Conservative or especially Reform, the best reason for keeping kosher is "to remind yourself that you're Jewish", as with Catholics eating fish on Friday even though they don't have to anymore. Unless you're in a very strict and isolated community, there's no "punishment" other than maybe being hassled. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Poetic justice demands that they be slapped with a wet pickle. :-) StuRat (talk) 16:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The late pop culinary anthropologist Marvin Harris posited that the Jews, as well as everybody else in the neighborhood, didn't eat pig because it was impractical. Pigs eat the same food humans do, and demand a lot of scarce water. Goats are much better: they change the inedible to the edible. The Kosher rules, to the observant, are a sort of full-time worship. One who breaks them is answerable only to himself. PhGustaf (talk) 16:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

All of the rules do indeed make sense in a hot country in an era before refrigeration. Even the seemingly strange ones like it being OK to eat beef - and OK to eat cream - but not OK to mix them in the same meal - comes about because of the way unscrupulous food vendors were attempting to disguise meat that had gone bad. But failing to follow a religious rule would presumably fall under the same kind of rules as being generally sinful - you pay the price with gods wrath in the after-life. Sadly, religious rules don't adapt to changing times. If you believe in that nonsense - then you'd damned well better follow the rules to the letter because hell implies an infinite amount of pain for an infinite duration. If you don't believe in it - then say screw it and enjoy the benefits of modern food quality standards and refrigeration and try a Steak-au-poivre with the full brandy-based cream and green-peppercorn sauce. SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Judaism is not so much about God being mad in your afterlife, though. Again, Auslander's book covers quite nicely (and humorously) what the perceived threat is—it is very real and current (he'll strike you down, or strike down your father, or your cow, or whatever). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

For a rather humorous take on what happens when you don't follow Kosher rules, I found Shalom Auslander's Foreskin's Lament: A Memoir hilarious and a rather amusing take on the Orthodox mindset. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

All that one needs to do is take a bath and fire up the washing machine - Leviticus 17:15. "And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean." Tevildo (talk) 19:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

That's it. Thanks for the reminder. There are rituals you can go through to "reverse the curse", so to speak, of having violated kosher laws. I recall Buddy Hackett telling some convoluted story about having used the wrong kind of knife to cut some meat, and he had to bury it in his yard as part of a "cleansing" ritual. And naturally a beat-cop came along and was very curious as to why he was burying a bloody knife. How much of his story makes actual sense in reference to kosher, the experts here would have to say. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

And since others have broached the humor side, I must summarize this tale from The Joys of Yiddish: A Jewish man is in a meat shop and inquires as to the price of ham. Suddenly a loud clap of thunder is heard from outside. The man looks toward the heavens and says, "I was only asking!" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

And there's the story about the rabbi and the priest sitting down with a beer and getting honest with each other. "Ever eaten ham, Rabbi?" "Yeah, I tried it once. Not bad. Ever had sex, father?" "Yup. Beats ham." PhGustaf (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC) (who will be here all week)

Those answers merge in colloquialism, "porked". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The rules of kashrut are fascinating to the outsider. A chicken's egg, for example, is pareve, neither meat nor dairy, if its hen laid it. But it's meat if it's extracted from a slaughtered hen, and can't be served with cream sauce because of the ban on cooking things in their mother's milk. PhGustaf (talk) 04:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hens give milk? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No, but the original law in the Torah says you mustn't cook a kid in it's mother's milk, which has been extrapolated to mean not dairy and meat mixing anywhere. Personally having been a non-observant jew my whole life I just though we went to hell if we broke the laws, though Jews don't technically have hell now do we. It's complex. Prokhorovka (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sheol is generally not considered as a place of active punishment like the Christian Hell, it's just boring. Also, one may well have reincarnation to look forward to. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No Apple Apple Pie?

How does this work? How can apple pie sans apples taste the same as a normal apple pie? Or is the common apple pie more of a cinnamon pie than anything? --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Apples don't have particularly strong flavour, so I guess most of what you taste in an apple pie is the sugar and cinnamon. It probably only works if you tell people it is apple pie - if you expect to taste apples, you will do. If you just gave it to them and asked them to guess what flavour it was, they might struggle. (I'm guessing, really, I haven't actually tried cooking it - I might do so, though!) --Tango (talk) 15:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Also important are the texture, provided by moistened crackers, and the tartness, provided by cream of tartar (although the recipe for mock apple pie I'm familiar with used lemon juice). According to our article (actually just a redirect to apple pie): "A mock apple pie made from crackers was apparently invented by pioneers on the move during the nineteenth century who were bereft of apples. In the 1930s, and for many years afterwards, Ritz Crackers promoted a recipe for mock apple pie using its product, along with sugar and various spices."

The chemistry lesson here is that any flavor is nothing more than a group of chemicals detected by the tongue and nose, and, if you can get those receptors to fire by other means, you will taste those flavors. There's even cases where a stroke will cause people to smell and taste things which aren't there. StuRat (talk) 15:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, there a huge amount regarding taste that is tied to expectations. There have been studies, for example, that show that people actually like beer with balsamic vinegar in it when they don't know that the vinegar has been added (in a blind taste test). When they know, they suddenly hate it. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

About 10 years ago, I tried making the "no apple apple pie" recipie that Ritz crackers were promoting. I agree that it's looks, feels and tastes kinda like apple pie - and it's certainly not horrible. The huge question I've never had answered is "Why?!" - apples are pretty cheap fruit. Crackers are not (pound for pound) as cheap - and you have all of the other ingredients you have to add to complete the 'fake'. So why do these recipies persist? SteveBaker (talk) 18:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Back when apples were seasonal it might have been useful (if your barrel of apples go rotten, you'll have to make do without them). These days, it is a novelty, or an experiment in human perception of flavour. --Tango (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Beyond that, it seems to me this is a somewhat developed temperate and perhaps subtropical country centric POV. Presuming you actually need an equivalent mass of apples as you need of crackers (I'm not sure about that, the recipe has a lot of sugar, I'm presuming this partially substitutes for some of the sugar from the apples) I'm not convinced crackers will be more expensive in many countries then apples. I asked someone I know living in Malaysia and they suggested a price of about RM6-7 per kg of apples. I think you could relatively easily get crackers of some sort for a lower price then that. These are relatively high quality apples (Gala) so you could potentially get apples for cheaper then that (although I'm told Granny smiths are about the same), maybe even cheaper then crackers. However Malaysia isn't a great example since it's relatively developed with a high degree of imported food available in many areas. It wouldn't surprise me if in less developed tropical countries where imported food is rarer, crackers would be significantly cheaper then apples. Indeed why presuming purchased crackers anyway? You could make the crackers yourself and the ingredients (flour etc) would end up being less. Of course most people in these countries won't be interested in such Western and relatively fancy food like an apple pie but foreigners and immigrants living in these countries may be and while many of these may just choose the apples because it's simpler and more authentic, depending on the price difference and other factors they may choose the fake apple pie. And of course I'm talking modern times. Historically it wouldn't matter what the season was if you were living in countries where apples were not grown. They would still be incredibly expensive and it's easy to image people choosing the fake apple pie. Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This is informative. The recipes I'd always seen had used saltine crackers rather than Ritz crackers, but a Google search comes up with a lot of recipes using Ritz crackers. There are also "mock apple pie" (as this recipe is called) recipes using zucchini. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

People skills

I enjoy talking, and I often enjoy talking about difficult topics, but I have been told in the past that I talk down on people, though I don't wish to do so, and nothing would make me happier than to be able to talk to all different sorts of people openly an at the same level. I'm not really sure specifically how it is that I "talk down" on other people; I often find myself holding my tongue because it is obvious that a person holds a very different belief than I do, and they don't really want to hear otherwise. I won't actually agree with them, but I'll nod and attempt to guide the conversation away from that point by asking questions or something like that. People rarely ever ask me for my opinion, but when they do, I just tell them the truth. In general I try to ask about the person I'm talking to as much as possible, instead of talking about myself, but I'm beginning to think that I may be thinking too much, although that doesn't seem to help at all.

Anyway, I know people, and hear about people, who are easy to talk to "on the same level", and "accept people for who they are", but I'm not really sure what I could be doing differently to be removed from the "smart-ass" category. Does anybody have any ideas? Thanks. Also, does this post sound condescending? lol 210.254.117.186 (talk) 10:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Start by reading How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

One thing which can cause the know-it-all perception is if you use bigger words than are necessary. Words like "condescending" may be a bit much for some to understand (I always visualize a painting of a convicted criminal: "Con descending a staircase", :-) ).

It's important to gauge your audience and select the words you use to suit their level. Or, to maximize your vocabulary utilization in accordance with the linguistic proficiency you've assessed. :-) Either using overly complex or overly simplistic words for a given listener may make them feel uncomfortable. StuRat (talk) 16:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

In one word - Listen. As a suggested goal, I would suggest trying to change your opening statement from "I enjoy talking" to "I enjoy having conversations". I've been through this myself. :) Tevildo (talk) 16:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

You could talk exclusively to people who enjoy talking, aren't sensitive about being condescended to, and are confident they can outwit you. 81.131.49.190 (talk) 16:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Reticence is a good quality. In my opinion, it is better to make progress in your own thinking, than to bring people along with you, so to speak. You will have something better to offer them at a later time. Condescension may be a necessity, or unavoidable. The more important thing is to have something worth being condescending about. Developing that I think should be a higher priority than worrying over whether you are offending someone with condescension or not. As long as you are concerned with not making people feel inferior (and you have already expressed that concern in your above post) then I wouldn't worry about it, because your concern will somehow be conveyed — in your words, in your demeanor, in your body language, in myriad and sundry undefinable things that make you the individual you are. Bus stop (talk) 17:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

One thing I noticed - People rarely ever ask me for my opinion, but when they do, I just tell them the truth. Be very wary of believing your opinions necessarily represent "the truth". If that's where you've been coming from, it may have a lot to do with why people think you're talking down to them. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I interpret the turn of phase, that "I just tell them the truth" to mean that "I just give them my honest response." I don't think the original questioner was implying any kind of absolute truth. Bus stop (talk) 22:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(To the OP) Your post does not sound condescending. It sounds uncomfortable and that makes listeners feel the same. Don't open your mouth unless you value what you have to tell more than what you think someone else may be thinking of you. Then enjoy sharing what you have and you will soon have them smiling. See me:  :-) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have some points here, which will largely echo what others have already said:

• Firstly, the fact that you enjoy talking means nothing! To have a good conversation, the primary skill you need to develop is listening. That doesn't mean waiting patiently for the other person to stop talking so you can say whatever you've already decided to say - it means actually hearing and understanding their own POV. Skill in conversation means responding to the other person, rather than just continuing with your own theme.
• On "talking to people on their own level", again the issue is proper hearing. If they are the type of people who swear a lot, then you can swear too. If they are the Queen regnant, better then to speak formally. If it's a taxi-driver, talk about taxi-driving as the first option. But if you talk about politics, keep in mind that you are talking to someone who views politics from the perspective of a taxi-driver. The key here is to adjust to the views of whatever person is occupying whatever "rank" that society assigns them, and remember they are all fully-formed human beings. Talk to people on the level they are talking from.
• In general face-to-face conversation, try to observe body language. Watch people's faces and the way they are standing, you can see immediately the impact of your words. If their face becomes more still or they turn away, they are likely displeased with what you just said - so you have a chance to minimize or erase the damage. If they look upwards or downwards, they are likely thinking about what you just said, so give them some space and LISTEN to their next response. If they reply and at the same time raise their hand to their face, there is a good possibility that their reply is a lie. The main thing to watch out for is when your words cause discomfort to the other party. Unless you are an interrogator or have an internal need to always win, that is the sign to back off.
• The main key is not just to ask the person about themselves or their views, rather it's to listen to their response and gradually explore their persona or their views. So rather than just ask someone new "what do you work at?" then after they answer go on to say what you work at, instead find a way to respond "that sounds like a tough job, you would have to do <something-I-hate-to-do>" or "I've always wondered how you do <xx>" or "are you busy right now?". As you noted, asking people to tell you their "story" is golden - but you need to sit back and listen, which does get in the way of talking. ;)
• And when you hear contrary views, I'd recommend that rather than trying to redirect the talk you make a better attempt at understanding the other person's viewpoint. Once you understand where they are coming from, you may be able to gently nudge them away from where they stand. Of course if you arrive at direct opposition in a conversation, changing the subject is a good option, but what's wrong with politely exploring someone else's state-of-knowledge? Who knows, you might actually learn something!
• And finally, having superior knowledge or better-formed opinions does not ever mean that you must inform other people of your extra-goodness. People in general won't change their attitudes in any given five minutes. They will though respond to your interest in their views and may change their own way of looking at things if you take enough time and actually care about the other person.

Spoken as someone who's "been there done that" and made the journey from "people say you're too arrogant" to "you're so charming" and "not you, everyone loves you" and "you're so easy to talk to" - seek knowledge always, but seek wisdom first - and care about the people you talk to.

And do speak truth. In some situations you can avoid doing so, as long as you never lie. But if it's your friends, just lay out how you see it. Better yet - don't ever say it's the "truth", just say it's your opinion They will appreciate it in the long run. Franamax (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Possibly the longest post I've ever made on Wikipedia, and entirely unsourced to boot! :( Franamax (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hasty disclaimer. Not all residents of this planet share in the glowing reviews I've reported above about my own wonderfulness. In fact, I can only cite three RL people, and I could easily come up with a more detailed sample of others who've expresed the opposite opinion. 'Struth, there is a difficulty when one writes only from the heart! Franamax (talk) 00:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit slow. What was the first sentence of your first point again? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Uhh - I'm pretty sure it was "edit this page". ;) After that it got blurry, but reading again, I'll stick with all of it! Franamax (talk) 03:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If you think part of the problem is that you are intelligent, and you need to find more intelligent people to talk to, consider joining Mensa. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Without wanting to sound bitchy, consider that Mensa members are self-selected from people to whom the fact that they (think they) are more intelligent than others is very important to them. My own contacts with Mensa members (and your mileage may differ) suggests that a high proportion of them are significantly socially awkward, which is not a good environment in which to work on improving one's own social suavity. Consider instead social groupings which tend to attract intelligent people without that being their primary raison d'être. I used to be acquainted with a former President of the British branch of Mensa (terminology not necessarily accurate, name intentionally withheld), who said that he had left Mensa to become more involved in Science Fiction Fandom because the level of conversation in the latter was superior. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs mentioned How to Win Friends and Influence People and I agree it's a good book for this kind of thing. Some ideas in that book that seem specific to your own problem is to be genuinely interested in other people, their lives and what is important to them and to talk to them about those things. It is not so much "holding your tongue" as much as steering the conversation to areas where you do see eye to eye, or at least where you are interested in their take on it. It is great if you can find something that you both do and are both interested in, but don't give advice on the matter unless they ask for it, and ask them for advice on the matter, even if it's just to get a second opinion. Pay them respect (usually through compliments) for things you genuinely respect them for, whether it's how they dress or how they play a sport. Don't just say nice things you don't mean, and don't get sucked into areas of conversation where you think there'll be conflict (although even people with diametrically opposed opinions can have good, respectful conversations and, in the right circumstances, become good friends). A chapter in the book says you should recognise that everyone you meet is superior to you in some way, and I think it's pretty much always true. If you can identify the way in which the other person is better than you, that topic is a good one for conversation, because you honestly value their ability or position on some matter (since you identify it as being better than your own) and they are in a position of importance in the conversation. TastyCakes (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

registry of certified ISO auditors

I am trying to find out if there is a registry of certified ISO auditors. There is an international governing body for ISO standards, but is there a complete list of people who are certified to perform ISO audits, and what they are exactly certified to audit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjdenny (talk • contribs) 17:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to take a shot at the last part of your question: they are probably certified to audit whether an entity, organisation, process, or commodity, should it currently or in the future want to be ISO-compliant, is compliant with what a particular ISO standard says. And ISO has many, many standards, really. So, an auditor comes to wherever with a list of features of a particular standard, and checks whether your manufacturing plant, manufacturing process or management structure is compliant with this or that particular standard. If he ticks enough 'yes'-boxes on his sheet, you probably get a certificate or something. Just a guess though. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, welcome to the biggest scam ever cooked up to separate businesses from their money! </rant> Assuming you mean the ISO 9001 quality certification, I made a Google search for "canada list of iso 9001 auditors" and came up with these links: [3] and an old one [4]. You will need to search by country. I can find one list, run by the IRCA, their site is here - but they probably charge people money to be listed there! :( Can't find any ISO-certified global list of registrars just yet. Franamax (talk) 20:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there would be an ISO certified list. As the article you linked to says:

ISO does not itself certify organizations. Many countries have formed accreditation bodies to authorize certification bodies, which audit organizations applying for ISO 9001 compliance certification. Although commonly referred to as ISO 9000:2000 certification, the actual standardr to which an organization's quality management can be certified is ISO 9001:2000. Both the accreditation bodies and the certification bodies charge fees for their services. The various accreditation bodies have mutual agreements with each other to ensue that certificates issued by one of the Accredited Certification Bodies (CB) are accepted worldwide.

Nil Einne (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This is indeed a pesky topic. Here is the ISO talking about certification bodies. They mostly waffle around, but eventually point to the International Accreditation Forum (boy, we really do have an article on everything!) website. That too looks like a "gotta pay to be listed" site, but I'd suggest you look up your country of interest (IAF Members from the left-side menu, Accreditation Body Members, View list by:Economy), then email the listed contact and ask them for a list of certified registrars in your country. Or email someone at one of the other lists I linked above. Remember that the actual external auditors/registrars are all competing with each other, so don't just take the word of the first person you talk to who says "no, we're the only ones".

Alternatively, find a few companies in your area who got the ISO 9000/14000 certification and ask them how they did it and what their experience was. And settle in for a three-year voyage, it's not going to be pretty. Good luck with it though! Franamax (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Eschange student

I have a friend in Russia, who I want to invite over San Diego, Ca for about a semester. If he is going to spend that semester studying in a local college, that makes him an exchange student. Is there some program for exchange students that would let me cut the costs? Because college fees can add up pretty high. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.170.157 (talk) 19:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you talk to that local college, they will know what funding is available. --Tango (talk) 19:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

There is also a Russian consulate in San Francisco [5], which you could contact. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

From my tax-preparing days earlier this decade, I seem to remember, perhaps wrongly, that the U.S. Internal Revenue Code did have a tax break for hosting exchange students, although the rules were rather strict and you (or the student) might not qualify. Visit http://www.irs.gov and check the likely-looking publications. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

From personal experience, I don't think inviting your Russian friend in that way will actually make him an exchange student. It will make him a foreign student, guest student or something like that depending on the local terminology. For someone to be considered an exchange student they need to be part of an exchange program between colleges, universities, states or some other entities. The reason that this matters is that there is usually far more options for exchange students to pick and choose from courses at various levels of the host university (since the exchange program implies a trust in the education already obtained at the home university). Guest students, on the other hand, can usually only apply for certain entry level courses, and those at higher levels that the various departments consider reasonable to attend even if the content of their prerequisites hasn't actually been studied. That is, if your friend visits you and applies to college without being part of a program, his choices - and chance of even being accepted to the college - might be very limited. You are advised to investigate how the prospective college handles these issues, or I fear there might be disappointment. / User:Coffeeshivers (not at home) —Preceding signed comment added by 88.131.68.194 (talk) 06:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You should also look into the kind of visa your friend will need for studying, rather than simply coming to visit you. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

In Movies: Transportations of the Future

Can someone provide me with some movies that depict future means of transportation? For example, iRobot. Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The movie called Minority Report speculates that cars would essentially be on some kind of electromagnetic tracks, and could travel at high rates of speed, and also straight up and straight down, if I remember correctly. That's not a new idea, it's been around for decades, but that film puts the idea out there in stylish fashion. But most any sci-fi film about the future will speculate on future means of transportation - the matter transporter in Star Trek, for example, which is a slightly more refined version of the exact same idea presented in the 1950s scare-flick called The Fly. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As Bugs says, most SF films have some concept of advanced transportation, but they use them mostly as a secondary plot device. The Stargate franchise is built around the notion of using wormholes to flit about the galaxy, and Star Trek in addition to using those cool transporters relied on "warp drive" engines. As far as terrestrial transport, I'm at a loss. I think Blade Runner had some cool transport devices, but I'd have to watch it again to be sure. Straying outside of movies alone, Robert Heinlein had the concept of massive "rampways" stretching across the USA where each consecutive "way" ran faster than the next, so you could step farther into the centre to get on a faster ramp. Can't remember the exact book though. Another example would be the incomparable The Stars My Destination, which luckily hasn't been ruined yet by a movie version. The concept there was to "jaunt" by just thinking well about where you wanted to be, which of course totally changed every aspect of human society. Oh Gully Foyle, I hope you're never brought to film! :) So basically, I got nuthin' good about terrestrial advances in transport shown on film. :( Franamax (talk) 20:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Not a movie, but one of the greatest SF short stories of all time, "Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman, discusses slidewalks and air cars. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

BTW, the Heinlein story Franamax is thinking of is The Roads Must Roll. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Thx Who then, found it and reading now. I especially like the "You know how women are" and "Calm her down" bits near the end. :) That and the "union power" and "indomitable engineer" themes - Heinlein certainly had a thought-provoking view of the world! Franamax (talk) 22:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Back to the Future Part II had flying cars and levitating skateboards. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Many movies (and other things) have been speculating on flying car (fiction) (unsupported/not on rails) for a long time. Going by some of the early ones, we should already have them or be very close. There's however very limited progress on that front. I know I'm not the only one to think this [6] [7] indeed I've noticed it's even mentioned in the article Nil Einne (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's hope it stays that way. The way people drive, can you imagine what it would be like with hundreds of personal autogyros buzzing around the city? Yikes! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

We don't have to, because Bob Shaw has done it for us in his excellently thought-through novel Vertigo (aka Terminal Velocity). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The detective in Alphaville apparently achieves interplanetary travel in a Ford Galaxie although the destination planet resembles 1960s Paris. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Always start with Metropolis. All that follows is pale imitation. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Metropolis? You mean that shameless derivative of A Trip to the Moon? -Elmer Clark (talk) 03:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Heinlein short story is "The Roads Must Roll" (1940); slidewalks also appeared in Asimov's the Caves of Steel (1954). The flying car in Blade Runner is the a spinner. Galaxy Quest used a gelatinous pod to travel through a wormhole. Star Wars gave us snow speeders, speeder bikes and pod racers. Clarke gave us the space elevator. Genesis II showed us intercontinental subshuttles. Gerry Anderson gave us the Cloudbase airborne aircraft carrier and other cool vehicles. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 00:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If we're talking Gerry Anderson - we shouldn't forget the 'SPV' (Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle) which was driven from a rear-facing seat (using TV monitors to get you a forward-looking view) in order to provide better protection in the event of a head-on crash! SteveBaker (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)I fixed your link and hope you don't mind.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I want to drive along from an old Meccano magazine [8] ;) Dmcq (talk) 08:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The South Park guys must have ripped that for "The Entity". ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Fifth Element has great flying cars and some nifty spaceships..hotclaws 13:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I should not be surprised that we have Category:Transportation in fiction. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

For the best in transportation, you need only look so far as Spaceballs and the spacefaring Winnebago. Dismas|^(talk) 18:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind the transportation, the pilot was most memorable.DOR (HK) (talk) 05:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

September 14

Bat infestation

we have a guava tree in our backyard which is often attacked by bats for its fruits,the problem is that theses bats mess up our wells too. How do we stop this ?( We are also not able to use those fruits either) sumal (talk) 03:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How about hanging mousetraps? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

In the Philippines I observed local farmers protecting hanging fruit by wrapping each unit in a burlap sack. You might try something similar. I'm not sure if plastic bags would work or not - being airtight might be bad for the development of the fruit. Protect all (or most) of the fruit and the bat food supply is gone. No bat food supply, no more bats. Personally though, bats are awesome. Hard to imagine them fouling a well?!?218.25.32.210 (talk) 05:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The bats are not attacking your tree they are seeking a legitimate supply of food that you are providing. If you are going to grow bat-food then you need to protect it and not harm the bats. Nets, burlap, or other protective measures are available to you. Have you thought of covering your wells with something to prevent the bat excrement from falling in. 86.4.181.14 (talk) 06:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

On a related note, please don't harm the bats; they eat cockroaches and other pests!--Leon (talk) 08:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I doubt if the same species eats both fruit and insects. StuRat (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Bats are a varied group of animals ranging from the small bats that eat moths and mosquitos which are common in the US, to giant raven sized fruit bats in SE Asia and Australia. I suspect that the OP might be having difficulty with the latter. Googlemeister (talk) 14:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The actual problem is pollution of the OP's well. It is unclear how bats are messing wells but that may have more to do with them living in caves associated with the ground water supply than attraction to a particular fruit tree. The OP is in India where access to fresh water is not universal. Solving that problem may be more than Wikipedia can do. The article Water resources describes the situation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no expertise on this but have been studying gardening for some time (although in my part of the world we don't have fruit bats). There are two main ways to keep the bats from eating the fruit. 1) Wrap the tree with a covering that keeps the bats out but that allows sunshine, air, and water to get through. The best solution is probably wire mesh, though this could be expensive. On the other hand, it should last for several years. A burlap mesh might be another solution, but I suspect that the bats cold chew through burlap and that it would not last more than one year, especially after a monsoon. 2) Apply chemicals to the tree or keep containers of chemicals around the tree that are not harmful to people but that deter bats. This article suggests that ethanol might work. You could try other chemicals that have a rotten smell. It is probably best to combine this with a wire mesh or other enclosure for the tree to prevent the bats from putting up with the smell, trying a bit of fruit, and learning that the fruit is good despite the smell. As for the well, you need to have it cleaned. There must be people in your area who clean wells. The next step is to cover it so that bats cannot enter it. A hard metal or stone covering would probably be best. Remove the covering only when you want to collect water. If your well is actually a cistern that collects rainfall, then you need a strong metal grate or screen that lets water in but whose openings are too small for bats to pass through. Marco polo (talk) 19:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

One more thought on this. After you have the well cleaned and cover the opening to keep bats out, I would recommend that you avoid using the water for drinking for at least a few months. However, I would draw water from the well during that time and use it for cleaning or for watering plants. Drawing water from the well and letting it refill with clean groundwater will help to improve the water quality over a period of months. I recommend having the water tested in a laboratory before you use it for drinking. Even then, you may need to boil it or use solar water disinfection first. Marco polo (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

MDF and hardboard

What are the essential differences between MDF and hardboard. I mean is hardboard safer to work with?--79.75.88.222 (talk) 16:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The articles do a decent job of explaining the difference. I'm not sure what 'safer' would be? It will depend on what you are using the wood for as to whether it needs to be a 'medium' (MDF) density or a high (Hardboard) density. ny156uk (talk) 16:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Neither are safer, but MDF is generally more visually appealing in situations where the side of the board may show. Additionally, it is more common to find a variety of finishes and veneers on MDF. Depending on your local market, there may be a price consideration when deciding between the twoCaltsar (talk) 16:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

well the MDF page mentions hazards from the glue used. The hardboard page does not mention hazards from glue or dust. Should it?--79.75.88.222 (talk) 17:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Its ok. just seen that no glue is used in hb, maybe only a bit of resin So its safer IMO--79.75.88.222 (talk) 17:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that there could be hazards from working with MDF, but those hazards don't seem to have much, if any, solid proof behind them. (The woodshop I worked for used polyurethane MDF which doesn't have formeldahyde in it) On the other hand, many other materials and chemicals used in wood working can be quite hazardous. Many solvents used in finishing sprays are present in much higher concentrations and many small wood shops don't have the room (or money) for a large, properly designed spray booth to contain those chemicals. Also, there are some natural hardwoods that have known health hazards when cut, sanded, or otherwise used in a way that creates large amounts of dust. When referring to the safety of the material, I was implying that the psysical properties of the material didn't cause it to be more or less safe when cutting, sanding, or working with the material as psysical injury is the most common method of harm in a woodshop.Caltsar (talk) 18:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Bending hardboard

I have an application where I need to make hardboard cylinders. What is the bast way to form the hb into a cylinder. Do I need to wet it?--79.75.88.222 (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe that hardboard becomes more pliable when it is heated in a steam oven and that it will keep its bend when it cools. The water in the oven keeps the temperature from rising high enough to burn the hardboard. I would not advise soaking the hardboard first because that will slow down the heat penetration. I can't quantify to how small a radius you can bend how thick a board this way, so that needs experiment. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I dont have a steam oven handy so would I be able to do it with a hot air gun instead? And should I wet the hb to create stem with the heat gun?--79.75.88.222 (talk) 00:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There are books devoted to wood bending, and your library may have one. Bending wood into a cylinder can be very hard to do, and certain woods and composites can only bend to a certain radius. Some woods can be bent over a form using clamps and time while others need to use steam and pressure. I don't really work with hardboard at all outside of pegboard, so I do not know how much it can be bent.Caltsar (talk) 18:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You can buy hardboard pre sawn with groves on the reverse to aid bending.--88.109.132.126 (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought that was the Bendy MDF (which I have used). Not seen pregrooved hardboard. Whats its tradename?--79.75.88.222 (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

d't know--88.109.132.126 (talk) 01:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I once discussed the bending of wood with a professional who made rakes and other bentwood items. He steamed the wood in a metal container large enough to hold it. A heatgun and dry heat would seem useless for the purpose. He said that he "overbent" the object to allow for it to spring back a bit. With grooves cut on the unseen side as 79.75.88.222 described, the heating seems unnecessary, but you do not wind up with full thickness wood. Greenwood should work better than kiln dried lumber company wood. You can form cylinders, chairs, and other shapes bu making a form and laminating thin sheets of hardwood, so that each sheet is thin and easy to bend, and when the glue sets, the assembled wood is like custom plywood in the shape you want, I would try that. See [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. Edison (talk) 04:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Tracing vehicle ownership in Northern Cyprus

How do I find the owner of a vehicle in Northern Cyprus by it's registration plate. Thx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepapooh (talk • contribs) 18:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You could contact the Northern Cyprus Ministry of Public Works and Communications, listed here, though you might need to be able to communicate in Turkish. Marco polo (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ella Cullom

i am doing a family tree, however my great grandmother Ella Cullom(married name in 1910 US census) was raped at an early age(abt 14yrs old)That produced my grandmother Lilly Cullom, in Tenn. Ella, was born abt 1871, i think in Tenn., her mothers name was Sarah the family told me that the guy that raped my great grandmother my have been a doctor that she may have been working for.I am at a lost for trying to find supporting info. Can you offer any help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.195.101 (talk) 20:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I am new at this I forgot to include my email for an answer about my gradmother lilly cullom and greatgrandmother ella cullom, her mother sarah. email add. [email address removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.195.101 (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've removed your email address, per the guidelines at the top of this page. People will respond on this page if they have any information. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 22:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If the rapist acknowledged paternity, he may be on the birth certificate, which should be available for that period. It's a long shot, but worth checking into. If the rapist was prosecuted, there should be a court record, though that may be difficult to track down, and there probably would be newspaper reports too. Short of those possibilities, you're probably limited to working with family records such as letters and diaries. John M Baker (talk) 04:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Considering the era, I think it would be highly unlikely that the rapist was prosecuted, or that it would be reported in a newspaper. Matt Deres (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully the birth certificate says where Lilly Cullom was born, and that should be pretty close to where her mother was working. Perhaps there were doctor registration records available, or the doctor could be recorded by occupation on the census. May be there were advertisements or the county may have had records on the use of premises. You should be able to narrow down the possibilities. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Birth certificates may not exist - they are a fairly modern document. Tennessee birth records only go back to 1908 and the state only has copies from 1914 (older ones are county documents) Some large cities have older birth records though. See [[14]] 75.41.110.200 (talk) 18:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Ancestry.com (subscription) is your best bet. They have the 1910 census, showing Ella Cullom, described as "mulatto," age 39 in the 1910 census, Civil District 6, Overton Tennessee, married to "Mack (black, age 61)" with Lilly (24), 6 younger Culloms, and 6 children from the Woods and Alred families. It says Lilly was born in Tennessee. It says Ella and Lilly worked as laundresses, and Mack was a farmer. The 1920 census for the same place has similar info, but does not show Lilly, though it shows 4 Cullom children and the husband's parents, age 85 and 80. So find Ella with a different last name, somewhere around 1876, to learn more about Lilly's origin. Ella should be somewhere in the 1880 census. In the rural south, people were not that mobile, and the people in the next farm were often relatives, so Ella might have been a neighbor's child. If it had been Ella's parents living with them in 1920, the search would be easier. Edison (talk) 14:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Going back to the 1880 census for Tennessee, I searched for "Ella," black, born about 1871 with mother "Sarah" and found several possibilities, but none in Overton with the right age, so you could search and branch out: Ella Bell, Shelby TN born about 1871 parents Looet and Sarah Bell, but this is 300 miles from Overton. There is also Ella Cannon, born about 1871, parents Jack and Sarah, in Shelby TN (also 300 miles away). There is Ella Moore, born about 1871, parents Pleas and Sarah, in Marshall, Tennessee (150 miles away). There is Ella Frierson, (age 10) parents James and Sarah, in Davidson TN (100 miles away). There is Ella Futrell (age 8) parents Shad and Sarah in Madison, TN (100 miles away). There is Ella Wilson, age 8, mother Sarah, in Knoxville, TN (120 miles away). Lots more as the age match becomes less exact (info in censuses such as age was often put down incorrectly, since the census taker might have just asked a neighbor or made it up just to complete his route). Edison (talk) 15:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The Mormons might be a place to look also. They don't just gather data about Mormons, but about everyone, presumably for the benefit of converts. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

September 15

Anamation studio jobs

I have a question. I am creating a list of jobs for an animation studio.. What jobs are there?
Story Board -
Character Design -
Object Design -
Environment Design -
Audio Effects -
Audio Voice Overs -
Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 01:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

(homework?) Try looking in the Occupational Outlook Handbook from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Find the entry for "Animators" and it will give you a job description, salary, and such, but most importantly, it should have a list of related jobs. As with most government publications, it's a huge book (literally about 1500 pages of microscopic print) but one hell of a resource. Xenon54 / talk / 01:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Not homework, I swear. Just a question a friend has.Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 01:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I work for a video game company - our animation department consists of:

• Environment Artists - who model 3D objects other than the actual animated characters.
• Character Artists - who model the geometric meshes for the characters.
• Texture Artists - who specialise in painting the surface materials of the objects.
• Technical Artists - who seek new techniques for the other artists to use in daily production.
• Shader authors - who write software that describes the subtle processes involved in how objects and characters look.
• Riggers - who place imaginary bones inside the characters and connect them together with handy controls ("rigging") such that the animators can use a single control to (for example) make the character bend over without having to move each bone by hand.
• Animators - who use the rigs to create the actual motion.
• MoCap engineers - who run the motion-capture machinery.
• MoCap actors - who wear the suits with the shiney dots on them to act out motion to use as a starting point for naturalistic animation.
• Lighting engineers - who place the lighting into the 3D scene.
• Designers - who arrange the objects produced by the artists to make full scenes.
• Software developers and maintainers - who program the computers for making pretty pictures.

And - story boarders, concept artists, an army of quality assurance people - people who keep the IT infrastructure running smoothly, build engineers, asset managers who keep track of where all of the individual models are stored and make sure that they are all QA'ed, etc. Subject matter experts. Purchasing department. People who'se job is to work with cheap overseas outsourcing (mostly for 'background' characters and environment art). There may be AI engineers - specialists in things like fight or dance choreography. Then you have directors, producers and other management layers. We have a 'scrum master' who keeps track of hours worked and progress made and who collects data to estimate the cost of future work. Human Resources, Catering, Janitors. There may also be musicians, foley artists, sound editors. Lawyers...lots of lawyers!

However, in most small companies (such as the one I work for) - there is considerable overlap between these roles. When I started at my job a year ago, all of these jobs were shared between just 15 people! We're up to maybe 60 people now...but there is still a lot of overlap.

There is a considerable range of skills, responsibilities and pay scales between these people. A programmer can easily earn twice what an artist will bring in - who in turn could be earning twice what a QA person would get.

SteveBaker (talk) 02:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Watch the credits at the end of any recent animated feature film. By the time all the jobs and names have rolled up the acreen you will probably be sitting in an empty cinema but you may also have noted some regular names in the industry. I used to do this in the Golden Age of American animation and remember the name Mel Blanc appearing after almost every cartoon. (Add voice actor(s) to the list.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I doubt many companies keep a voice actor on-staff. For starters, there generally isn't enough work to keep them busy for more than a few weeks a year. We use short-term contracts for voice actors. At Midway, the programmers and artists often acted all of the minor parts. I'll never forget the time - soon after I got my first game programming job when my desk was situated just outside one of our conference rooms. One day, I'm sitting there, minding my own business - when this enormous ruckus starts up inside the conference room...there is an incredible amount of really vicous swearing and cursing and calling someone the worst things imaginable. I couldn't concentrate - so I wandered off to the lounge area to play some pinball. About an hour later, I see one of our managers and someone who I didn't recognise going into the conference room - and again - a HUGE bust-up. Tremendous arguments. I'm beginning to dread having meetings with this manager - he clearly has a way of upsetting people beyond reason! Of course it turned out that they were interviewing voice actors...but it had me convinced! In general, the audio folks are a very small team compared to programmers and artists. Probably just one or two percent of the creative staff. SteveBaker (talk) 01:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

any U.S citizens in the British line of succession

are any of the people in line to be the next British king or queen U.S. citizens? how far along?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 02:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

See Line of succession to the British throne. David Cook is American, though he is not the first American in line. No, of course he would not become king of the US. Algebraist 02:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The US doesn't have a king or queen. See President of the United States. Dismas|^(talk) 02:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It may not have a King or Queen, but it did once have an Emperor... --Jayron32 03:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

With every bit as much authority and reason as Norton had, Garfield Goose claimed to be "king of the United States". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

the line of succession does not have nationalities or citizenship. that is my question. who is american on the list? Payneham (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• Our list runs some 1617 people long (not counting people who are listed on that page, but are inelligible to inherit). There are undoubtedly some Americans there, but many may be private citizens, and may not have much to write a Wikipedia article about them. Perhaps someone so dedicated could assign nationalities to all 1617 people, but it does not appear to have been done yet. --Jayron32 04:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And our list isn't close to being complete. Algebraist 04:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a much longer list here which goes up to 4973. Hut 8.5 13:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That list contains a number of people who are ineligible due to Catholicism, and is out of date. It does claim to have been complete when compiled, though. Algebraist 18:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I've found an American on the list: Catherine Oxenberg. Hut 8.5 18:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe anyone in the line of succession is entitled to British citizenship, so I expect if someone that wasn't British became monarch they would choose to become a British citizen. I don't know if that would involve renouncing any other citizenships (it may depend on what the other citizenship is - I don't believe an adult can have duel US/British citizenship [my cousin did until she turned 18 and had to renounce her British citizenship]). It may even be a requirement to assume the throne - I would have to look that up. --Tango (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's not true. United States nationality law#Dual citizenship says dual citizenship is accepted in the US which has always been my understanding. Naturalising citizens (which doesn't apply to your cousin) are required to technically annouce all former citizenships but most countries which allow dual citizenship ignore this (those who don't also don't care, they'll cancel your citizenship whatever the case). The UK since 1949 doesn't care at all British nationality law#Dual nationality and dual citizenship although British subjects and protected persons are treated differently. If your cousin was entitled to British citizenship but not registered and never lived in the UK for any real period of time then it's possible they lost their rights when they turned 18 although I'm not sure about that (it probably varies depending on several factors including time period). Mind you, if you don't live in the US I can understand people wanting to renounce U.S. citizenship particularly if they live in a country without a double taxation agreement or want to have the freedom to live in such countries. AFAIK, the US is one of the few countries that does tax their citizens who aren't living in the US as mentioned in Taxation in the United States#Federal income tax. Nil Einne (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

BTW in terms of the citizenship thing, while it would probably be a hiderance in this modern world (although anyone from outside the UK and heck, anyone that far down the line of succession is going to have major issues) I don't believe there's any real requirement. I was thinking of this earlier but didn't post. Unlike with e.g. the Catholic thing, I doubt it's really an issue. Traditionally it wasn't that uncommon for the monarch to originate from elsewhere. And more importantly perhaps British citizenship means being subject to and swearing allegiance to the monarch. Technically I think it's questionable whether the reigning monarch can even be called a British citizen. And it's questionable if the monarch can actually commit treason against themselves (a queen consort can) so it's not as if you have to worry about the monarch commiting treason because of their split loyalties. Perhaps an argument would be made that such a monarch would not fulfill their duties to their people but that's about it. As I said, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a big problem nowadays, just that I think it's easy to understand why there's probably no technical requirement. Nil Einne (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The concept of "citizenship" is well beneath the monarch. Its the sort of stuff that commoners need to worry about. In a monarchy, the concept of citizenship is closely tied to the concept of "subjectship", and the idea that the monarch is a subject of himself is patently rediculous. The monarch just is and doesn't worry himself with the day-to-day silliness of what his citizenship status is. Heck, they don't even worry about last names or stuff like that. These sort of paper-pushing bureaucratic issues are simply not taken into account in succession law. There have been many British monarchs who were not residents or subjects or citizens of Britain, it has never been a requirement to become King or Queen, which is, after all, an inheritance issue, and such issues are not based on nationality at all. Could not a Briton name an American as a benefactor of his will? Cannot an American descendent inherit a title of Peerage? An American inheriting the throne should be no different. --Jayron32 21:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, what with the historical encouragement of intermarriages between royal houses, there are quite a number of quite notable non-Britons in the line of succession. The King of Norway is number 63, Princess Margarita of Romania is 86, the Hereditary Prince of Yugoslavia is 95, there's a Grand Duchess of Russia at 112, the King of Sweden at 193, the Queen of Denmark at 222, the Crown Prince of Greece at 237.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

So it would appear that nothing short of a thermonuclear world war 3 would result in getting all the way down to an American then? Googlemeister (talk) 16:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps now, but the succession is highly fluid. Given that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on the list are male and single, all it'd take is a single intercontinental Hayden Panettiere to reorder the top of the table radically. -- 87.113.10.108 (talk) 17:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Or a deadly pandemic affecting only those with questionably structured chins. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Article I, section 9 (last clause), of the Constitution of the United States forbids anyone holding an office of trust or profit under the United States from accepting without the consent of Congress, "any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince or foreign state." So any letter carrier, Social Security clerk or census-taker, let alone a high-ranking civil or military officer, might conceivably have a problem, although I haven't read the enacting legislation (if there is any). —— Shakescene (talk) 06:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that if a U.S. mailman got a letter notifying him that he had just inherited the throne of England, he would probably figure he could give up the postal job. Unless he really liked delivering mail and said, "No, thank you," to that cushy position. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, obviously. Probably even if he or she were Undersecretary of Commerce or a major-general in the Armed Forces of the U.S. But the phrasing in Article I, section 9, doesn't make it clear what happens if the title is conferred on someone who's holding an office of trust or profit under the U.S. Technically, I think, one would accede to the British throne upon the death or abdication of the reigning monarch, which could occur in the middle of your working day, although it would be easy enough to leave the civilian service of the U.S. (or perhaps get the necessary special bill through Congress) before the coronation (a little harder with a military post). And in theory, the enacting legislation could punish violations far more severely than just discharging you from U.S. government service. But I guess the operative Constitutional words are "accept of"; you could accede, I suppose, to the Throne before or without accepting it. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Defo had a royalty ruling over america you wern't always independant :PChromagnum (talk) 06:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't even a US General, if he were made king of England just leave his army post without legal consequences simply because he would have gained diplomatic immunity? Googlemeister (talk)

A person who accedes to the throne cannot not accept it. They may not like being the monarch, but they are the monarch nevertheless, because the law has made them the monarch. If they don't want it, they have to ask the UK Prime Minister to submit a bill to the parliament to change the law so that they are deemed to have abdicated. They will still appear in all future lists of UK monarchs showing them as the monarch for whatever short period of time they reigned. If they got to be next in line, and made it clear they were not interested, the law would probably be changed to exclude them before they ever got to the point of acceding. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

So the first sentence is incorrect. But they aren't supposed to just refuse to show up, they're supposed to go through a formal process of abdication. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

They can certainly refuse to show up. They can't be physically forced to leave Dry Gulch if they don't want to. The only formal process of abdication is the submission of the abdication bill to the parliament, the parliament passing the bill, and the monarch signing it into law (Royal Assent). That signature on the bill is their effective instrument of abdication, not whatever other document they may choose to sign, because a UK monarch cannot unilaterally abdicate. The only way they can leave the post is to give Royal Assent to the bill of abdication. That signature can be done anywhere; it doesn't have to happen in some royal palace in Britain. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

pancreatic cancer.

what is the pancreatic cancer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.98.156.25 (talk) 09:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Read the article Pancreatic cancer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Side note: After I posted the above, I learned of the passing of Patrick Swayze from that form of cancer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Herbal Remedies

Are there any proven herbal remedies to help someone quit smoking?LVledic (talk) 13:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

"Proven" is a very tricky term in these contexts, as the placebo effect is quite powerful, and proof of causation is difficult to establish. However, our article on smoking cessation notes some herbal treatments (without statement to efficacy) and herbal tobacco replacements (likewise). — Lomn 13:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

In the US, herbal remedies do not have to be tested by the Food and Drug Administration. Therefore, you may have a hard time finding any credible data from the US. See also Herbalism. Dismas|^(talk) 13:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

bicycle use

Are there any countries that require a license to operate a bicycle, or that disallow one from using a bicycle on a road under certain conditions (presumably they are not allowable on US Interstate highways)? Googlemeister (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A Google search for "bicycle license" finds that licensing the bicycle (as opposed to licensing the rider) is quite common -- this easily fulfills your second criterion. Please consider such basic research in the future; you'll frequently get an answer far more swiftly than by posting here. — Lomn 16:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Googlemeister has been around the reference desks long enough to know the benefits and drawbacks of asking a question here ;) TastyCakes (talk) 16:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there are a whole lot of roads in Amsterdam where you wouldn't be allowed to use a bicycle, what with the vast network of bike lanes right next to the roadways. Franamax (talk) 20:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And per Sec. 185 (2) of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, it's certainly possible for a municipality to restrict bike riders on "highways" within their jurisdiction, though I'm not aware of a particular example. Onatrio also has a pretty impressive list of things you can't do on a bike [15], including riding the wrong-way on a one-way street. Does that meet your criterion? Franamax (talk) 20:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think there's a blanket ban on bicycles on the interstate. In California, at most freeway entrances (interstate or otherwise) there's a sign that says "Pedestrians, equestrians, and bicycles prohibited" (I could have the order wrong). But if you're headed north on I-5 coming off the Grapevine, as you reach the valley floor and the speed limit goes from 65 to 70, you'll see a sign that says "all bicycles must exit".

Now, admittedly, by strict logic, this does not imply that bicycles are permitted south of that sign, but by legal logic, I think it does (though I'm not a lawyer). See exception that proves the rule? --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Here in the UK, bicycles (and some other things - horses, mopeds, pedestrians, carts, etc) are prohibited from motorways. I have also heard of the police being able to apprehend you if you cycle whle drunk. In general, I believe much of the Highway Code also applies to cyclists. That said, there is no bicycle license or insurance requirement, so quite what sanction the police or law could apply is unclear to me (though I wish they found a way to clamp down on cyclists ignoring traffic lights and pedestrian crossings, perhaps with some stiff fines :-) Astronaut (talk) 22:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I heard the other day that being arrested in the UK for cycling while drunk can result in points on your car license if you have one. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 07:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Not true. What motoring offence are you guilty of? --Phil Holmes (talk) 13:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know much about the principles of UK highway law, but in California you would be in violation of the California Vehicle Code, specifically a moving violation, and so it makes sense to me that points could be assessed on your license. Whether they are or not, I don't really know, but I kind of suspect they are. The key principle is that a bicycle is a vehicle, even though not a motor vehicle; the rules for bicycles are mostly the same as the rules for cars, and completely different from the rules for pedestrians. --Trovatore (talk) 20:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Relevant UK laws are here. "Riding a bicycle while unfit through drink" (Road Traffic Act 1988) appears to be the one. It's a separate offence to be "Drunk in charge of a motor vehicle". AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that most freeways are off-limits to those things here, as well. Exceptions are apparently made for some specific stretches where there is no practical alternative route. Does that not happen in England too? You might want to check (I'd bet that most people here would assume you can't drive a bicycle on any part of Interstate 5). --Trovatore (talk) 02:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we have exceptions like that, no. But then, motorways having only come about in the 60s and later, I think it's assumed that there will still be a non-motorway route to anywhere you might want to go. The only exception I can think of is motorway service stations (I'm envisaging young workers in McDonalds or whatever who don't have a car) but even there they often have an access road if there's a non-motorway road nearby for it to connect to. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Most service stations (maybe all) in the UK have a local access road as well as a motorway link. Up until about 15 years ago you could often use these as "unofficial" exits, but now they seem to have card-operated barriers. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There are a few stretches on freeways (including interstate highways) in the United States on which bicycle traffic is allowed on the shoulders. Typically these are stretches where there is no nearby non-freeway road, particularly going over bridges and through mountain passes. This is most common in empty parts of the western United States, where the pre-freeway local road was simply converted to a freeway, since it would have been very expensive to construct a freeway alongside the local road, and there is little need for a local road since there are no homes or workplaces along that stretch. The I-5 through the Grapevine is one such example. I-93 through Franconia Notch is another. Marco polo (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I would presume most violations of the highway code by cyclists in the UK would be subject to fines and in some cases may be even prison. At least that's how it would be here in NZ with violations of the road code by cyclists. There may be additional exceptions and requirements (e.g. for signalling, lighting, helmets, cycling abreast). These may not be enforced very often (for example warnings may be given most of the time) but the possibility is there. Is it not the case in the UK that most violations of the highway code by drivers are subject to fines as well? If so I don't really get the relevance of the licensing and insurance part. These allow additional sanctions in the form of a demerit point system and also allow easier identification and easier recording of warnings but aren't essential to the imposition of penalties. Note that while I'm not aware of any actual countries that do it, you don't need licensing to allow you to ban people from cycling if they are repeated violators for example. Obviously the lack of registration and plates off bicycles makes identification difficult if you use some sort of red light camera or whatever but that's different from licensing Nil Einne (talk) 03:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It is a legal requirement to have a light fitted and in use whilst riding a bicycle in the dark in the UK. Can't find the exact Act of Parliament though, sorry. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of name "Kalaw"?

Hi all,

I have to call a potential employer on the phone, and would like to have a better-than-odds chance of pronouncing his name right first time: how would you pronounce "Kalaw?" Would you go for "KAY-law," "KA-law" or "k'LAW?" Any recommendations appreciated! — Sam 76.24.222.22 (talk) 15:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It would help if we knew what nationality he was. Where are you/do you know anything about his potential nationality?Popcorn II (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Nothing, sorry. I assume he's American, and his first name "Gene," but family could be from anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.222.22 (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I got his voice mail, and apparently it's "k'LAOW.' — 76.24.222.22 (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That suggests to me a good strategy, which I may use in future. Wait 'til you're sure the person is not at their phone, call from a number (payphone, friend or parent's phone) unrelated to your own, listen to their voice-mail message. Interesting... Franamax (talk) 20:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That's a strategy I've used before. I have to read lists of names for ceremonies on occasion. If I can't get a hold of them to ask, often their voicemail/answering machine gives me the correct pronunciation.

If you can't do that, it's usually quite polite to ask if it's an exotic seeming name. Steewi (talk) 04:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The consequences of "fixed" American healthcare

I've been thinking... They say that healthcare in the US costs over 15% of its GDP, compared to about 7 to 11% in comparably developed countries. Were this to be magically fixed and the amount spent on health care brought more in line with the rest of the world, what would be the effect on the American economy? Surely many thousands of people would find themselves economically redundant? The defense lawyers without torts to defend doctors from, the insurance salesmen with no-one to insure (or deny insurance?), the pharmaceutical companies no longer selling to over-prescribed patients or limited by government price caps found elsewhere in the world? Have any studies been done on the effect freeing up that 5% of America's GDP would have, both positive and negative? TastyCakes (talk) 18:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If, for example, the U.S. were to entirely nationalize the health care system, there would still need to be a large bureaucracy to run that system; you need actual people, with experience in health care, to staff that bureaucracy, so many (though certainly not all) people from insurance companies would find themselves jobs working for the government. However, none of the current plans actually propose anything like that. The most drastic change being offered on that front is a government run corporation that would sell insurance on the open market in competition with private companies; such a government run insurance company would still be required to be solvent, as it would recieve all of its operating budget from its own revenue. This is the so-called "public option" that is the center of the debate right now. All other plans feature even less drastic changes to the system. So, so far, the biggest change on the table right now is "everything stays the same, except we start a new insurance company". Also, consider that much of the cost of health-care is currently being born by companies like major manufactures (the auto-industry, lets say), who spend up to 1/2 of their annual spending on "legacy costs", basically half of everything a company like Ford spends is spent on health care for retired workers. The arguement is that if the Government picked up that bill, rather than Ford, then Ford could be more competitive with a company like Toyota or Volkswagen, who do not have to pay those costs. So much of the "lost" GDP in healthcare wouldn't disappear, it would transfer to the sorts of industrial jobs we have been bemoaning the loss of for decades. --Jayron32 18:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Right, I understand the changes being suggested are limited in scope. My question is more of a mind experiment of what would happen if the health industry became significantly more efficient, in line with other countries. What if America as a whole spent trillions less on health care and health care related industries. Presumably, the large companies that pick up the bill now would benefit, as would many smaller companies, as would medicare. But also, presumably, all that money was paying somebody. What happens if a huge industry were to become 2/3 or even 1/2 of its current size? Above I tried to identify groups I think would be hurt by increased "efficiency", lawyers, insurers etc, but I may be way off. Who else would be hurt? Where is that money coming from? Medical care has been one of the few growth industries in America for some time now. Would "fixing" the system to severely reign in costs change that? Would unemployment boom? Could America's "unnecessary health care jobs" be part of the reason it has had lower unemployment than Europe over the past decades? TastyCakes (talk) 18:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

In the short term there would I presume be some loss of jobs. In the long term, the money has to go some where and it's likely to go some where where it would be more productively spent. At least this is the simplistic capitalist answer. (Any money that's 'wasted' is better spent somewhere else.) In terms of the growth industry/employement point, I don't think it's proves much. As far as I'm aware many developed countries have health care as growth industries. BTW in the magical sense you're describing it's likely a some of the money would come from reduced salaries and profits, including for many medical professionals but also executives, bureaucrats, lawyers etc. (Which will of course sometimes result in loss of jobs.) Also increased effiencies would also in some cases mean just from a redistribution of effort. From what I've read, a fair amount of the current inefficiency comes from stuff like many unnecessary medical tests and operations because insurance is paying for it and they pay per procedure. So you spend less (time and money) per patient but treat more patients. The effect of this would be complex. These people would contribute to the economy. Some of them who would have been unemployable may remain employable. On the other hand there would also be people who may have otherwise died who may end up on the unemployement list. However I think very few politicians are going to say one problem with the proposals is we won't kill so many poor people and so there's more to fight over the remaining jobs. Nil Einne (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

"Start a new insurance company" ... in what way is the proposed new insurance company going to be funded out of taxes, or given special privileges in law? If in no way, then why hasn't somebody already started this new insurance company? 213.122.19.130 (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This relates to the Luddite fallacy, though the WP article on that is short and I think parts of it are a bit off target. In short, people would spend their money on other things (say haircuts) and hence there will be more jobs for hairdressers. Hence, there might be problems if the people you mention have a hard time switching to a different industry, but a lot of those competencies seem like "general" business/bureaucracy and should be easy to translate to something else. Jørgen (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A better article to look at might be creative destruction. This kind of thing actually happens all the time. Interestingly, The Economist has an interesting recent piece on Andy Grove's thoughts on how the health-care industry should be more like the computer industry.[16] (email me for a copy if anyone can't see it)

To continue your thought experiment that perhaps the inefficiency of the US healthcare system has led to decreased unemployment (and presumably better use of capital and labour inputs?), take it the other way. If the inefficency has been good, then why not double the size of the sector? Let's set up entire new companies to duplicate the work of all the other companies. Let's do all MRI's twice, hear all lawsuits twice, review all medical bills twice. When you shift the argument to the opposite direction, does it make any sense? If not, then what makes the current size of the sector optimal? Franamax (talk) 20:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If we could do other things more efficiently, such as build cars, then I'm sure nobody would say that was a bad thing, and suggest we didn't do it because of the poor auto workers. No wait, bad example...OK, televisions... DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the medical lobbyists (the well lubricated Luddites of our time?) would say it was a bad thing? ;) TastyCakes (talk) 20:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I've always wondered about the many American workers who were very very skilled in the design and manufacture of slide rules, and the American capital invested in marking things to great precision on a log scale. What happened to all that? And I remember the great angst as the television industry moved overseas also. Grove describes his own experience as offshore memory-chip manufacturers threatened Intel's original business. Pretty hard to argue that they should have stuck with their original business model, given that Intel turned into one of the most valuable companies in the world after getting out of the memory business. Franamax (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the healthcare workers or the drug manufacturers will be out of work - when close to 100% of people are properly covered - more of them will seek treatment rather than hoping they'll get better without treatment. What one would hope would happen would be that the workload would shift from critical care and emergency rooms to preventative treatment and early treatment. There was a poll of doctors run just recently and 60-some percent of them were in favor of not just reform - but the "government option" for reform...so they clearly don't think this will harm them economically. SteveBaker (talk) 21:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

For a comparable situation, note that in 1950, Americans spent 20.6% of their income on food; by 2004, that number had shrunk to 9.5%. ([17]). The change in spending patterns had an effect on the labor force. In 1950, 25 million Americans lived on farms and 12.2% of the labor force worked on them. In 1990, only 3 million Americans lived on farms and only 2.6% of the labor force worked on them. ([18]) This obviously caused major economic dislocation with profound effects for many people. (Remember Farm Aid?) But most people would say now that American society is better for the fact that we don't have to work 1.6 hours a day just to pay for the food we eat as people did in 1950. Note that the total amount spent on food may not have decreased, but the economy has grown far faster than expenditures on food. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The crux of the question is where the savings are to be found. If every component of the entire healthcare system, from bandages to brain surgeons, were to take an equal hit (all prices and fees drop by 40%), there’d be a one-off, $850 billion reduction in spending. Some 15 million people would see their paychecks slashed by 40%, which would have a rather profound effect on their spending habits.

In the second quarter of this year, the economy fell 3.9% year-on-year, but if the $850 bn were subtracted entirely in that quarter, the contraction would have been 10.2%. Household spending on healthcare was 11.4% of GDP in the second quarter, which is about 75% of the 15% figure cited. If all the savings in the family portion were spent elsewhere, private consumption would have grown 7.3%, rather than falling 1.8%.

Mwalcoff, the combined spending by US households on food and medical care in 2008 was almost an identical share of total spending as it was in 1950. The mix, however, was different. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

So you assume in your analysis that every one of those people would sit tight for a 40% reduction in their income, and not even one of them would go chasing after the extra $850 billion that people had to spend on other things? No problem, I'm quite willing to absorb that $850B of new buying power myself, I'm sure I can come up with something! Or, horror of horrors, the US population might even take some steps to correct the negative household savings rate, negative current-account balance, negative trade-balance, and negative government fiscal balance. God forbid! Franamax (talk) 09:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

bath of oysters

my housemate bought a load of live oysters which he claims are living out of water and now he has put them in the bath and is having a bath with them, is this ok? Robo-Doug (talk) 19:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess he can do whatever he likes. However I'm certainly not going to be eating the oysters afterwards. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That's just a waste of money and, more importantly, tasty oysters. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 20:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you'd have to ask the oysters if they like having naked humans in the bath with them. :)

So long as your housemate doesn't actually try to eat the oysters, didn't drink the bathwater, and doesn't repeat the experience, probably not a problem. I very seriously doubt the oysters are actually alive anymore, and if it was a hot bath, they are likely now cooked oysters. Should get pretty smelly in a day or two. Amusing image though... Franamax (talk) 20:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

What a fantastic waste of one of nature's most wonderful foodstuff. Other than that, besides being weird as hell, I'm not sure there is anything wrong with your roommate. I would start looking for a new place to live if this happened to me, but then again, whatever works for you... --Jayron32 21:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

He might be trying a variation on a theme. Oysters supposedly have aphrodisiac properties, and maybe he's trying ingestion by osmosis. Good luck. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine they'll live very long - don't they need salt water? Without that, they'll die pretty fast. Even with sufficiently salty water - without plants or surf dissolving oxygen into the water, their chances are slim at best. SteveBaker (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

They also gotta eat sometime. I wonder if he stocked his tub with plankton? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Those oysters are almost certainly dead. The way to check is to tap on them and see if they make a clacking noise. Googlemeister (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually after reading the oyster article, it says they can live up to 2 weeks outside of water! Googlemeister (talk) 20:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not altogether surprising. The octopus, one of their cousins, can crawl on dry land from one pool to another, seemingly without ill effects. Resilient creatures, those mollusks. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

One risk is cutting skin on the sharp shells. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This represents cruelty to oysters. Bus stop (talk) 22:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

One word: PETO. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Jayron32; I'd be more concerned about your roomates mental health than anything that could be caused by the oysters^{I alsothink I just sprained something laughing}Library Seraph (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

September 16

character needs to escape a cell

Hi. I have two characters stuck in a cell, with a metal bed frame, a mattress, a metal sink, and a metal toilet. They either needs to escape, or cause a disturbance so the guards will investigate and he can steal the keys. One of the bolts on the sink is loose. (If you're wondering why it's so specific, it's an online RP, someone else set the situation.) Can you think of a way to get out using what was given? 70.179.52.204 (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Can one fake an illness, and when the guard stoops to check on him, the other could purloin the keys? Or better yet, have one fake a heart attack, and when the guard comes to check on him, as he stoops, he could freak and grab the guard in fake desperation like all "I'M HAVING A HEART ATTACK HELP!" and then grab the keys that way? Just some ideas... --Jayron32 02:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Yelling FIRE! might get more immediate attention. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think prisoners have very many fire-starting materials in their cells. That's a good idea for rape, though. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 03:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Those are good ideas. You might also consider taking apart the sink, causing a flood - first thing that jumped to my mind. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 02:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

He left out the part where the guard shoots them dead for trying to steal his keys. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The mattress might be of some help in subduing the guard, as might the removed bolt (as kind of a makeshift blackjack). It might be possible to tie up the guard using strips of metal from the bedspring. I couldn't find anything in Google on this subject. As with most of these crazy stories, some outside-the-box (or cell) thinking is needed. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The rules say we're not supposed to guess. But unless someone knows the answer somehow, what else can we do? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the other RP'er didn't specify there was a specific way out of the room. He just expected me to find a way using the tools given. Remember the characters are also wearing pants, shirts, coats, shoes, etc. if that helps expand options. 70.179.52.204 (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors suggesting ideas for RP games. I think we've entered a new realm of geekery here..... ;) 80.193.130.5 (talk) 08:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm too late, but the most elegant solution yet is this--Rallette (talk) 09:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Using the loose bolt remove the sink from its fittings, turn the bed frame on its side, call the guard in, knock out the guard with the sink, steal their clothes, repair the sink, put the guard in one prison's clothes, hide in the bed as if asleep, make a bit of noise, walk out with one prisoner behaving a little wildly and the other (in the warden's uniform) trying to hold 'em down, breeze through security as the manic movements make it difficult to recognise you're not one of the guards, once you're out, make a run for it. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

... or ... tell the DM that you're really in no hurry, and you are happy just sitting in the cell playing patience, so why doesn't he cut to the chase and explain his ingenious escape route, so that that you can say how clever he is and then get on with the quest. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Try to knock the plaster and lathes out of the ceiling and climb out. Often this is a weak spot.Froggie34 (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)DT

Use the loose bolt to spend 20 years carving an escape tunnel through the wall. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Remove a piece of pipe from the sink supply line, and make the guard think it is the barrel of a gun. Lock him in the cell and take his keys. Get the drop on the other guards and lock them all in the cell, taking all the keys. Unlock the weapons locker and get a submachine gun. Go to the garage and drive away in the Sheriff's personal car. Dillinger escaped this way from an "escape proof" jail, starting with either a gun barrel carved from a bar of soap, or a piece of wood picked up in the exercise yard. Edison (talk) 20:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If the cell is the right width, have them both brace themselves near the ceiling - called chimmneying in mountaineering I think - so that the gaurd sees what looks like an empty cell and opens the door to investigate. Then they can either hope the guard leaves the door open when he goes away to report the disapearrance, or they can jump on him when he enters the cell. Any other means of getting the gaurd to enter the cell without having reinforcements might work, such as pretending to be very ill or dead. 78.146.166.183 (talk) 21:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

guidelines about a project on trading in shares

I am a student of F.Y.B.C.B.I and want some information regarding trading in shares about demat account, procedure of demat accounting, doocuments and the sponsors and all other related information for preparing my project. can u help me for the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manjiri rangnekar (talk • contribs) 11:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There is some information in our demat account article. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

ACORN/OAKWILT

Many a Tweet hashtagged with "impeachobama" use the tags "ACORN" and "OAKWILT". What do these latter two mean? 80.193.130.5 (talk) 14:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

ACORN is an acronym for Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, which was an issue in the the 2008 presidential campaign associating Democratic candidate Barack Obama with its alleged voter registration and other improprieties. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't know about OAKWILT, but ACORN might relate to this. TastyCakes (talk) 14:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Though it's a good question to ask what, if anything, this really has to do with Obama... though some people will go for anything! "Oak Wilt," uncapitalized, refers to a disease that kills oak (acorn-producing) trees, which is, well, a little disturbing, if people are implying that is what should be done. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 21:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Runaway Rat

My pet rat ran away about a week or two ago. We just caught her today in the kitchen. She is very filthy, and her fur and tail feel oily. Also, her left hind foot looks bruised, and she is limping on it. What should I do for her, and are there any diseases that she could have that could be fatal to her or the rest of the family? Westernrider2991 (talk) 18:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This would seem like veterinarian advice, which we are not really qualified to give. Googlemeister (talk) 18:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Just beware of any vet named Dr. Katz. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

September 17

Identify this junk

I saw this junk lying on the trash heap while heading to work. I think it is a solar collector of some sort. Anyways it is made of a thick white sheet, the material seems flexible since it is folded enough to show its underside. Its front side contains dull grey octagons arranged in rows. The octagons seems to be embedded in the sheet as the underside of the thing also have the same octagons. Its underside also shows that wirings are sticking out on the faces of the octagons. --121.54.2.183 (talk) 01:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like you may have found Mariner 2. Actually, you'll get a better response if you could upload a photo. Tempshill (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No idea how to upload the pic to the web from my phone. Anyways, I showed the pic to a colleague. She says that it is either solar cells or semiconductor ingots. --121.54.2.188 (talk) 00:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Alien abduction insurance.

I was showing some co-workers our article on Alien abduction insurance (it's a hoot - check it out). I was surprised to see that it says that on at least two occasions, the insurance company actually paid a claim! There is a reference for the fact (an online news piece) - but it doesn't give any details. Does anyone know any more information about this? What could the claimants possibly have said to convince the companies to pay up?! SteveBaker (talk) 01:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The article might not be right (cue stunned gasp from imaginary audience). Google brings up an article written in June that says Grip has never paid out a claim. On a related note, there's a humourous eHow on how to claim such insurance, "so incomplete paperwork doesn't stand between you and $10,000,000." (You'll have to Google them both, as both webaddresses cause the spam blacklist to fire.) Xenon54 / talk / 01:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember insurance companies are businesses. If you are going to have to pay $1 a year, even if the possibility is there for 1 million years, you're likely to decide it cheaper to just pay the $1 per year if the alternative is going to cost a lot more. In fact in this case it may be worth it just for the publicity, from the sources [19] [20] it's apparent the company does seem to seek publicity (and if you're going to make money that way, why not?) Nil Einne (talk) 03:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

THYRIODECTOMY

There is a 15 years old girl who lost her voice after thyriodectomy.The surgeon who performed the surgeory says the voice will come back after 3 months.is it true?

How would you know if a qualified thyriodectomy surgeon were the one answering your question on an internet reference forum? DOR (HK) (talk) 10:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh?!? You mean I've been getting strung along all this time? I thought we were ALL totally qualified and well respected professionals, especially with regard to medical and legal advice! Damn! Joking aside, though, OP, we cannot give medical advice and would not be able to even if we were qualified to do it (and there would be no way of proving that) - it is quite simply against the rules of Wikipedia. Either ask another surgeon for a second opinion, or search the net for a website of some qualified person(s). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Our thyroidectomy article has some information on complications, including damage to the recurrent laryngeal nerve leading to hoarseness. That being said, none of us could predict when or if the girl's voice will return without knowing additional details about what happened during the surgery. As far as your second question goes, none of the reference desk regulars has identified themselves as an otolaryngologist, to my knowledge. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

mole removal

Does it hurt?Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Only if they forget to apply the local numbing agent. Go see your dermatologist. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This[21] site claims reassuringly that "Our Lawn Mole removal is SAFE for: *Kids *Pets *Plants & Yes…it's even safe for MOLES! (Don't worry, we Don't Kills[sic] your Moles...They just move on, Safely & Naturally!) That contrasts with the inhumane Whac-A-Mole method. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Silly me, I thought he meant moles on the skin. For moles in the yard, a well-designed shotgun can work. That might hurt the mole, but it will feel good to the one holding the shotgun. Otherwise, there's the time-honored trick of putting a hose in the molehill and turning the faucet on. That will have the side benefit of saturating your thirsty lawn. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

My father was killed in a Whac-A-Mole, you insensitive clod! ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 15:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought Whac-a-Mole was a sauce used on tacos. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Whether mole removal hurts depends on who you are. Our government feels more secure without moles but on the other paw, being a notable mole does not look good on one's curriculum vitae.Cuddlyable3

Removing exactly one mole properly can be stressful due to the large number of molecules that need to be counted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Removing mole can be financially painful if you spill it on an alpaca carpet. Googlemeister (talk) 18:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Back to the original question: I had a thingie removed from the end of my nose, and they used a local anesthetic. It didn't hurt. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Authenticity cehck

Ho do we check to know if a person is lying or true on something we cannot verify ,on anything he claims to have done professionally or personally where we have no rights or means but sheer curiosity so that we can carry on to be friends. i mean ,it can be deceptive.

Weellll... I think you're going to have to be a little more specific about what you're referring to. Do you want to know if he really got his degree from such-and-such university? That he had a job and An Important Company? That is he really the son of Whomever He Says He Is? I mean, each of these would have different ways of verifying, some of which you could do "just because you are curious," some of which you would not be allowed legally to do because of privacy rights. Try and be a little more clear about what you are asking about and we can be a little more specific in an answer. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes you'r right, he claims to be highly qualified and sounds genuine when says it.

You could tell him "Show me your advanced university degree you've talked about, I want to see what it looks like". Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Many universities will tell anyone who asks some very basic information about their alumni, like whether they were there, what dates they came and went, and what degrees they received. This helps the university by reducing the number of charlatans who can claim to have attended but did not. Just call them up and ask. Also, you could find someone whom you know to be qualified in the field and ask them to administer a brief test to the questionable person. --Sean 17:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Alternatively, if it is a professional qualification (chartered accountant, for example), the professional body that issued it will also be able to verify it for you - that is the main purpose of such bodies, to provide a way of ensuring people know what they are doing. --Tango (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ask if they are willing to undergo a polygraph test? If it's something that the person has claimed to have done personally, there are no independent ways of confirming this and they want to convince you of their veracity, they may be willing. Of course, the process is by no means 100% perfect. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

internal Job posting

What all things we need to know if an interview is being carried out for an internal job posting for the post of manager from sales to customer service or vice versa (opportunities in both) if its chaired by the general manager ,are there any strong points we can talk about and if any loopholes that may be missed. Please advice

Please sign your posts here by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of each post. To answer the question, your text is a little confusing — I think you are asking about tips for interviewing for a promotion to a managerial job. If you google "promotion interview tips" or "job interview tips", you'll find a lot of advice. As far as "strong points we can talk about", how are we supposed to know the strong points of your past performance? Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP might be talking about things for the interviewers to ask the interviewees. 94.168.184.16 (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

As an HR professional, I suggest asking yourself why you have been named responsible for conducting interviews when you obviously know nothing about them? Someone tasked with hiring a new manager should NOT be using Wikipedia's RefDesk as their primary training materials. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 01:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Highest Bail amount

Recently the bail for Phillip Garrido was set at $30 million. What is the highest amount ever set for bail? What is the highest amount actually paid for bail? What is the highest amount forfeited (because the defendant fled before trial)?

Clark Rockefeller had bail set at a ridiculous $50 million before it was revoked altogether. I'm not sure if that is the highest, but that's quite high (if you're going to set it that high, you ought to just deny bail... which is what they did. I feel similarly about $30 million—if he's that much of a flight risk, just deny it!) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a ridiculous amount for a real Rockefeller. Maybe the judge took the guy at his word. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...isn't the right to 'reasonable bail' enshrined in the US Constitution? Rhinoracer (talk) 13:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Even if it is, the judge would probably be in charge of determining what reasonable means in a specific case all the way up to infinity billion dollars (denying it outright) for some cases. Googlemeister (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Lead doorstops

I have a couple lead pigs that I don't have any real use for. They have no coating on them. I thought they would make nice doorstops. The thing is, I have a dog. Will this be a potential health risk for an animal, just to be in proximity to them? (She will not eat or lick them, that is for sure. They weigh some 10 lbs each and are not interesting to her at all.) What if I coated it in some way? I tried to paint one of them, but the paint really didn't adhere to the lead very well (it is tacky and easy to peel off). If I were to paint them, what kind of paint should I look for that will adhere to the lead? (Or how else to do it—I haven't really painted metal before, so I don't know if a primer is necessary, for example.)

Any thoughts one had on this would be great. Obviously I know that there probably aren't toxicologists running around here with exact figures, but your input would be great as I weigh the options here. (And before anyone asks, there are no children in the household, so that is not a risk.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Lead#Exposure_Pathways indicates that if they're just sitting there, there's not much risk. The risk will increase if they're sliding around on the floor a lot, which could create lead dust, which could present an inhalation danger. Obviously if Rover starts chewing on them you must do something. As for painting them, I'm not sure, but maybe you could put them in decorative pillow cases as door stops sometimes have. I suggest a porcine theme. --Sean 17:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as many millions of people for many years drank water that had passed through lead pipes without significant harm should allay any obvious fears. 86.4.186.107 (talk) 21:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

And for even longer before that they drank from the same water supply they dumped their waste in ... --Sean 15:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Re painting, check out the Hammerite range of paints, some of which are designed to be applied to bare metals such as iron. I don't offhand know if these, or others in the range, are suitable for lead ("led") but you might at least get a lead ("leed") via their own website. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Many years ago I cast some lead to make doorstops and painted them with yacht varnish so that the bright lead showed through and didn't oxidise (or not as quickly). It worked well for a while, but eventually the lead went grey. ... and I still drink water stored in a lead tank and delivered through lead pipes! Dbfirs 16:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedias by creation

Is there a place where I can find a list of Wikipedias (I mean English, German, Estonian...) ordered by their date of creation? --151.51.24.225 (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

See meta:Wikimedia projects. Nanonic (talk) 21:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Mmm...Thank you, but I can't find a complete list of Wikipedias by creation in that page... --151.51.24.225 (talk) 06:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

While the article History of Wikipedia in itself is mainly concerned with the English Wikipedia, it is still somewhat helpful, as there seems to be some relevant links in the "Historical summaries" section of the external links. I think that a lot of the information you are looking for is probably to be found in Category:Wikipedia years. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Question about bilingual countries

I feel we here in Finland are in a unique situation. Finland is not only the only country in the world to have Finnish as an official first language, it's the only country in the world to have a non-negligible Finnish-speaking population, and I'm pretty sure most Finnish-speaking foreigners are Finnish immigrants or their descendants. But still we are a bilingual country, with Swedish as an official second language. In Southern and Western Finland, every single official text everywhere is in both Finnish and Swedish. In Åland, they don't even bother writing them in Finnish. Outside Åland, in private life, most written and spoken language is in Finnish only. But still, we have to treat Swedish as one of our official languages. I'm not trying to argue against having to speak Swedish (I've sometimes argued for it), but my question is, is there any other country in the world in such a situation? Being the only country in the world to speak a certain language, but still having to have another language as an official second language? JIP | Talk 18:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Answering my own question, at least some of the ex-USSR countries, particularly the Baltic countries, come to mind. They all have a sizeable Russian-speaking minority, but is Russian still an official language in those countries? JIP | Talk 18:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ireland and Malta immediately spring to mind, (Malta probably being closer to the Finnish situation seeing as most Irish people don't speak Irish). The Baltic states, AIUI, have only their national languages as official languages, which is an ongoing problem with their sizable Russian minorities who can't qualify for citizenship without passing tests in Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian--Saalstin (talk) 18:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You could include Wales, since (outside Patagonia) it's the only place in the world to speak Welsh but English and Welsh are both official languages (well, languages "treated on the basis of equality"). But it depends whether "country" means "sovereign state" or not. The Wednesday Island (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. What I find especially funny about our situation is, that linguistically, Finnish and Swedish are very distantly related. Finnish is not even an Indo-European language, one of the very few non-Indo-European language to remain as an official language in Europe. I believe the situation is the same in the Baltic countries. Estonian is one of the closest relatives of Finnish, and at least in Tallinn, Finnish and Estonian are mutually intelligible. I don't know if that's the case north of Helsinki or south of Tallinn though. I don't understand any Latvian or Lithuanian, so I don't know the situation with them. I understand Welsh and Maltese even less, but I feel they are also non-Indo-European languages. Am I correct? I specifically did not include Wales in my original question, because it's technically not an independent country, even though it's a separate sub-national entity, and a strong ethnic community. My question was specifically about independent countries. What is the situation in Malta, what are the proportions between Maltese and English speakers? Do most people living in Malta understand Maltese? Are all official documents in both Maltese and English? As a complete foreigner to all things related to Malta, I'm intrigued to know. JIP | Talk 19:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Welsh Welsh language is a Brythonic celtic language, which is part of the indo-european family of languages.

Maltese Maltese language is unusual (in europe) in that it is a Semitic languages. (Also written in latin, not arabic..)83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Also see Malta#Languages "The Eurobarometer states that 100% of the population speaks Maltese. Also, 88% of the population speaks English, 66% speaks Italian, and 17% speaks French">83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

JIP, I find it intriguing that you, JIP, as a Finn, state that Finnish is 'very distantly related to Swedish.' Finnish is completely unrelated to Swedish, being a member of the Fenno-Ugric languages (a subset of the Ural-Altaic languages) and related to Hungarian. You then mention that it's not an Indo-European language, which is correct, so there seems to be a slight contradiction there. I just thought I would point that out. In answer to your original question, though, Switzerland has three official languages - French, German, and Italian - but the native language is Romansh, which as far as I know is not the language in which official documents are regularly printed. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) 19:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I mostly intended "very distantly related" as an euphemism for "completely unrelated". I'm sure the languages do share some common ancestry, but it's completely negligible, and dates way back to the pre-Christian era. Close political and cultural relations between Finland and Sweden, for the past millennium, must have influenced the Finnish language much more. JIP | Talk 19:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(BEFORE ECs)Non indoeuropean languages spoken in Europe include:

• The Semitic Maltese language noted above
• The Uralic languages, which include Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian, as well as such non-national languages as Sami and Karelian.
• The language isolate Basque.

I'm pretty sure everything else is an Indo-european language, even the other Baltic languages like Latvian and Lithuanian. In fact, I am pretty sure that some scholars consider Lithuanian to be the closest modern language to the ancient Proto-Indo-European language. --Jayron32 20:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(AFTER ECs), actually, any Swedish influence on Finnish would have been comparitively recent, and mostly vocabulary-based, much like the influence of Norman French on English, which is still fundementally a Germanic language. The further back you go, the LESS connection (not more) you are likely to find between Finnish and Swedish. --Jayron32 20:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The official languages of Quebec are French (first) and English (second), and all public signs must be in both French and English. From what I understand, if a non-native English speaking child comes to Quebec and attends its schools, they're required to study in French. There are English language schools, but only native English speakers are allowed to be taught in English. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it's quite what JIP is aiming at, but the situation in English Canada is also somewhat analogous. French is only widely spoken in certain parts of the country: Quebec, New Brunswick, northeast Ontario and a few communities here and there in Ontario and Manitoba. But French is an official second language everywhere in the country. So the signs at the post office in, say, Medicine Hat, Alberta, where hardly anyone speaks French, are all bilingual, and every consumer product's package must have English and French words in equal size. In Toronto, where French is the 11th-most-spoken language (behind English, Chinese, Italian, Portuguese, Punjabi, Spanish, Polish, Tagalog, Tamil and Urdu), the highway signs read "EXIT/SORTIE" -- as if French-speaking people couldn't figure out what "EXIT" means. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, this is the situation in Canada: English and French are national official languages with equal status. In Quebec, French is the one provincial official language. In the other 9 provinces, English is the language predominantly used, but New Brunswick makes both languages official at the provincial level too, and the other 8 provinces have no provincial official language and their governments use French only to the extent that they find it appropriate (like those highway signs in Ontario, a relatively recent change) or that federal law requires (for example, I recall a Supreme Court ruling requiring provincial legislation to be translated into French). By the way, in the territories (not provinces) of the Canadian Arctic, there are additional official languages. Official bilingualism in Canada is the article on this subject, but I'm mostly speaking from my own knowledge here. --Anonymous, 04:21 UTC, September 18, 2009.

More specifically, another example of a country that had a unique first language but also has a second official language is Israel, which has both Hebrew and Arabic as official languages. Luxembourg has French and German along with Luxembourgish. Russian is an official language in Belarus, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan along with the native languages of those countries. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Philippines?.-121.54.2.188 (talk) 03:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Another answer is Paraguay; almost all speakers of Guarani live there, but Spanish is also official. It's different from Finland in that Spanish is also widely used. --Anonymous, 04:21 UTC, September 18, 2009.

Here in New Zealand we have English and Māori as national languages. We're the only country in the world to speak Māori, and there's a non-negligible percentage of the population which speaks it (though the Cook Islands have a very closely related language). Grutness...wha? 07:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

We actually have 3 official languages in NZ: New Zealand English, Maori, and New Zealand Sign Language. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 10:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Belgium has Flemish and French as two of its official languages. No other country speaks Flemish. However, Flemish is a dialect of Dutch, and it is claimed that the two are mutually intelligible (not in my experience though!). German is also an official language, and there are other languages spoken in this delightful small country. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anywhere except India has Hindi as an official language, English is also an official language, and Hindi isn't an Indo-European language :) Dmcq (talk) 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree, but small corrections: Hindi is an Indo-European language and one of its dialects, Hindustani, is also an official language of Fiji. Abecedare (talk) 10:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, Fiji, is another candidate with Fijian (a Austronesian language), English and Hindi (both Indo-European) as official languages. As is obvious, Finland is far from unique in this aspect. Abecedare (talk) 10:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Also Sri Lanka with official languages Sinhala, an Indo-European language spoken mainly on the island, and Tamil, a Dravidian language spoken in parts of India, Singapore, Malaysia etc. Abecedare (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Switzerland has four national languages (Art. 4), and three official languages, with Romanch also recognised as an official language for the purposes of reports from the Confederation (Art. 70). The constitution is written in all four national languages, with an English version for information purposes. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 11:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Singapore has Malay as the national language with English, Mandarin and Tamil as other official languages, with English being used most of all and Mandarin second. Of course none of these languages are unique to Singapore. (But since Canada etc came up) The situation gets even more complicated if you start considering non official but widely used languages. Malay is the only official language in Malaysia. English is widely used including for some official purposes and is a compulsory subject at primary and secondary school (and was used to teach science and mathematics for a while but that's to be abandoned), and also used in universities to varying degrees and considered the language of business but is not an official language. (For example, it may not be used in parliament without permission of the speaker [22]). Mandarin and Tamil is also the medium of instruction for some government supported primary schools but again is not an official language. There is also a number of other indigenous languages in use but sadly not recognised as official languages, particularly in East Malaysia which have varying degrees of government support and problems e.g. Iban language, Kadazan language, [23]. State government may of course also have their own usages of the various other languages, e.g. multilingual road signs [24]. And of course when you consider sub national entities Languages with official status in India and Languages of China are worth a read. Nil Einne (talk) 16:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

ISTR some strange situation in Luxembourg where French is used when writing, German is used by the government, and Letzeburgisch (unique to LUX) is used for day-to-day conversation (caveat: this is from a dim memory, so my facts may be way off beam). Grutness...wha? 01:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Main Page

www.wikipedia.com takes you to a page with a big logo, a search box, and a billion and one links. Given that, how many people really see the Main Page? I didn't even know it existed until more than two years after I started using Wikipedia! Is there some way of comparing the number of hits the front page gets and the number the "main page" gets? Vimescarrot (talk) 19:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is actually www.wikipedia.org, though the '.com' address does lead you to the '.org' page. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) 19:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, once you select your language from the list, it brings you to the main page of the language you select. So, if you select English, you are magically taken to en.wikipedia's main page. I don't see the problem. --Jayron32 19:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Not a "problem", I just find it...odd. Or am I the only one who didn't know we had a main page? Vimescarrot (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Statistics. [25], specifically, says that last month, the main page on en is the #2 most-hit page, next to the Search page. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cheers. Vimescarrot (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. That link doesn't actually include plain old http://www.wikipedia.org/ since it's not on /en/. Vimescarrot (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

That isn't really a main page, it is a portal. It's just there to get people to the site they want. --Tango (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a dedicated search page? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 20:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

People probably think so. Search redirects to Searching. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Special:Search --Tango (talk) 21:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

When you type in something and nothing comes up it shows you search results. That's teh search page and is the most viewed n wikipedia.92.251.140.93 (talk)

Are you asking how many people know of Main Page or how many people know of the 271 or so main pages we have? I ask because the answer will be different and one reason we have www.wikipedia.org is because not everyone understands English and even those that do may want to look at some other language. (Another advantage is it reduces the number of people who come and yell at us because the search doesn't autofocus on Main Page.) Personally I believe I came across the main page before www.wikipedia.org, but I'm not sure Nil Einne (talk) 16:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Since I've now got the number of hits per day on the Main Page, I'm now just after the hits per day on the entrance portal, for comparison. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Hammerkeeping ruler up...er..haad to name but you get the picture...

this couldn't really happen could it?92.251.212.168 (talk) 21:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well it could be fake - but the principle is that the head of the hammer is the heavy bit and so counterbalances the whole thing - note that the head of the hammer is under the desk. You could probably try this at home...83.100.251.196 (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

There are tons of explanations, ranging from straight up shooped (the string especially) to the hammer and/or ruler actually being nailed to the wall (look at the claw of the hammer) to all of that actually being on the floor (the shadow of the hammer's head looks weird). Still, all you really need is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajKLgGo0WZU. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 21:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Will look92.251.212.168 (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Likewise here: [26] Doesn't look fake, seems to have to do with balancing just right, as noted in the first response. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it even requires balancing just right. It looks quite stable to me. I'd think the biggest problem would be the tail end of the hammer sliding sideways against the ruler, but if that ruler is like similar ones I've used then it has a groove on the bottom side which will help prevent that happening. Other than that there's practically no way it can fall without a pretty big push. In fact I'm surprised so many people think it looks unstable. I wonder how they envision it falling. -- BenRG (talk) 11:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It certainly can happen - so long as the head of the hammer multiplied by it's distance under the edge of the table equals the weights of the parts to the right of the table edge multiplied by their distances from the edge. In a good hammer, almost all of the weight is in the head and the other parts of the apparatus look to be very light - so this doesn't suprise me at all. Anyway - if you need convincing, here is a video of someone doing the exact same trick: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/316065/strange_hammer_balance/ SteveBaker (talk) 01:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The key issue would seem to keep the connections stable, i.e. the string along with the handle touching the underside of the ruler are key. Then, as the videos show, you can get the ruler very close to its end, like 1/8 inch from the edge of the table, and the apparatus remains in balance. I would suspect it doesn't really matter how little of the ruler is on the table, as long as it doesn't come so close that it slips off. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with this? Seems a perfectly straightforward balancing setup to me. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Maryland state history question

What are the two to three most prominent families in Maryland history? This may include industrial, turn of the century influential families who were residents of the state.

This sounds like a homework question. (Apologies if it isn't.) Wikipedia volunteers will not do your homework for you. Please make an attempt to do the question yourself, then if you have trouble understanding something you can come back here with a question. Xenon54 / talk / 21:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You should probably start with Cecilius Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The Ripkens, maybe? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Engine bore versus Horsepower - 312 c.i. Y block Ford V8 with Holley 4 barrel carburetor

Subject engine is rated at 245 H.P. What would be the effect of a .20-.30 overbore on rated horsepower? Sjmclaughlin (talk) 23:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

September 18

How tall are the three men?

Bush、Reagan & Gorbachev

How tall are the three men in the picture?--百楽兎 (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Would you be amazed to know we have Heights of United States Presidents and presidential candidates? Apparently Bush Sr. was 6'2" and Reagan was 6'1". I don't know about Gorbachev but obviously he is a few inches shorter. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

According to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0329784/bio Gorbachev is 5' 9" (1.75 m). SteveBaker (talk) 01:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Reagan was 6'1"? But Bush Sr. seemed much taller than Reagan in the picture...--百楽兎 (talk) 02:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Old people shrink. Reagan was likely 6'1" in his prime, but in this picture he was in his mid-70's, while Bush Sr. was in his early 60's. So combine a) the natural tendance of people to shrink when they get older b) his posture in the picture, and c) illusions of perspective because of where the men are standing and it does not look all that out-of-whack. --Jayron32 02:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

And, although slight, the difference in the height of their shoes should be factored in. Dismas|^(talk) 15:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You may also notice that Reagan is leaning forward somewhat, with his shoulders hunched - can't see if his knees are bent - whearas Bush and Gorbachev are standing more erect. B00P (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Minitab

am very new to this statistical software called Minitab, how do I go about mastering it as the book seems to be very less helpful, are there any videos we can download and learn as I do learn from visuals more than the text. Anyone please help..

There are a great many Minitab tutorials on the internet, as evidenced by this Google search. Consider adding search terms to narrow to your specific area of interest. Videos will be less common, but are probably still available for common functions. Consider using Google's video search to find them. — Lomn 12:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Australia

Hi me and my friend are wanting to take a gap year between finishing college and going to university. Our dream destination is Australia. I was just wanting some advice on what visa's and regualtions are in place. We are wanting to go for about a year. We're both UK citizen. Any other advice like where to stay, jobs etc would be great.

Thanks 81.129.200.83 (talk) 09:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I could go on for hours with this as i did exactly the same thing! If you contact me via my talk page or use my username here to find my website via google, I can speak to you via email at length about where to go what to do etc... As to the legalities of the visas and regulations, A) things may have changed since I left there 8 years ago, and b) we aren't supposed to give legal advice on here... Please contact me via email or talk page though as i can suggest some great ideas... Gazhiley (talk) 11:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You'll find a lot of helpful information here.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

commercial

This week on New Zealand Television, I heard a quote in a US TV show from a female character who claimed she was on a commericial in which one of the lines was " Pretty sneaky, sis. " This same later was later spoken this week by Charlie Sheen on " 3½ Men ", for some reason, in the episode in which his Mother faked a heart attack. Now I cannot remember the first show on which I saw the female character, nor whether she was a real person playing herself, or a character on a show claiming to have been on a real ad. Was the ad real ? I assume it was American, and if anyone can remember the show on which the woman claimed to have been on the commericial, that would be great, too. I have an idea it could have been the episode of " My name is Earl " in which Seth Green played a dying man Earl had wronged earlier in life, whose wish was to make a film.

Any details, please enlighten me. Thanks, Chris Lilly, " The Russian ", CHRISTCHURCH, New Zealand, also at (email removed for privacy)

Google gives an advert for Connect Four as it's top hit for "Pretty sneaky sis" Nanonic (talk) 10:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I assume u mean 2½ Men? Gazhiley (talk) 11:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sachin

where did Sachin made his 42th test century?

Seddon Park - Fribbler (talk) 17:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Gandhi in Kanthi

In which year did Mahatma Gandhi Came to Kanthi?

That would appear to be a mixed metaphor, as Gandhi is a person and Kanthi links as a necklace. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Kanthi is an alternate name for Contai, a subdivisional town in India. — Lomn 17:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

According to this source, Gandhi's first visit to Kanthi was in July 1925. He returned for a visit from 30 December 1945 to 3 January 1946. Marco polo (talk) 01:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

question about illness and president of US

If you are scheduled to meet the president and end up getting a contagious illness (say the H1N1 flu), would you not be permitted to meet with him on the grounds that it is not a great idea to get the pres sick? Who would be able to make such a determination?

Googlemeister (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone with flu ought to quarantine themselves, regardless of who they are scheduled to meet. --Tango (talk) 16:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Initially, you are responsible for making the determination. If you're feeling sick and think, "I can still go to work" then you are making that determination. If you knowingly had H1N1 and tried to conceal it due to the importance of the meeting, then you are taking on that responsibility. If you were to inform the president's staff that you were a confirmed case of H1N1, then they would most likely make the decision for you and postpone the meeting. Dismas|^(talk) 18:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If you knowingly concealed a contagious infection before meeting the president then 1. the screeners are not doing a good job and 2. I bet you could be brought up on charges - conspiracy to commit treason or something equally as fear-instilling. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 18:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I really can not see the National Security Adviser, or the Speaker of the House getting brought in for treason simply because they tried to work through a "relatively" common illness. Googlemeister (talk) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Article III, section 3: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. So no. As a practical matter, treason prosecutions are virtually impossible except in extremely rare circumstances. Even Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were not charged with treason (for one thing, the prosecution would have had to prove that the Soviet Union was legally an "Enemy" of the United States). --Trovatore (talk) 23:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

palestinian refugees in iran

After reading news dispatches regarding "unity" with Palestinians, I have sought information regarding Palestinian presence, if any, in Iran,and if available, the dispersion of Palestinians in the Middle East.

A succinct question might be--"What is total Palestinian population in the Middle East, and by country?

A second, related question would be, "Are Palestinians absorbed into general populations in these countries?"

Our article Palestinian diaspora has some data, but none for Iran I'm afraid. The first challenge for your subsidiary question is going to be coming up with a definition of what constitutes the Middle East. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 18:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Iraq-Iran

What are Iraq-Iran Relations like? Thank You --GollumSnakes (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I put your questions into seperate headers. Please don't put unrelated questions under the same header in the future. Nil Einne (talk) 17:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

See our article on Iran-Iraq relations. — Lomn 17:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Snakes

Most toughest snake to kill? Thank You --GollumSnakes (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Osama bin Laden? :) What do you mean by "toughest to kill"? You chop their head off, they're pretty much dead, no matter the species. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Presumably some variety of deep sea snake is toughest to find, and thus toughest to kill. Otherwise, I'm in agreement with Bugs -- dead is dead, and we're good at killing individual snakes. — Lomn 17:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll go with Black Mamba. They live in the jungle and they have a terribly potent bite. Vranak (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Titanoboa would have been pretty difficult, weighing more than a ton and as long as a bus. Fortunately there aren't any around any more. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

In General, large animals are more difficult to kill then small animals in a straight up fight. If your snake is trying to escape from you though, a small fast snake might be more difficult. So I guess the answer is that it depends on the situation. PS you probably should not go out of your way to kill snakes. They may look mean, but most would just as soon avoid people. Googlemeister (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there seem to be 2 questions here: (a) which is the hardest to capture?, and (b) having captured it, which is the hardest to kill? Being somewhat herpetologically challenged, I cannot answer either question. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Is first capturing it really the best way to kill a wild snake? Algebraist 23:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Snake Plissken of course, duuuh. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Randy Moss

Randy Moss most dropped catches? Thank You --GollumSnakes (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Be more specific. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The use of the word catches made me think that he was a catcher in baseball but apparently Randy Moss is a wide receiver in American football. According to this, as of Sep 14, 2009, he has dropped just one pass. Although, that seems to just be for this season alone. This page claims that he dropped seven passes last season. Dismas|^(talk) 17:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

That's why I asked him to elaborate. He could be asking which season Moss had the most dropped catches. He could also be asking if Moss holds a record for most dropped catches. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand that. The broken English of the question makes it unclear what they are inquiring about. But on the other side of the coin, I might have gotten lucky and answered their question with the links I provided. They could come back and be more specific but chances are they won't since very few of the OPs seem to ever come back and thank us for answering their questions or asking follow-ups. Dismas|^(talk) 18:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I found other sources claiming 9 drops for last season (and one claiming 6). I'm forced to conclude that drops are one of those stats (tackles and assisted tackles being the highest-profile examples) that are highly dependent on who's watching the game rather than being an objective value. Perhaps that's why it's so hard to find a historical record. — Lomn 18:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

His year with the Oakland Raiders would probably be the right answer, since he wasn't really interested in performing well when he was with them. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, what was the year Moss wrecked the most cars? PhGustaf (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Ear piercing

Why dosnt it hurt, like what is the science behind why/Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 16:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

There are relatively few nerves in the area, thus it's less sensitive to pain. — Lomn 17:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Who says it doesn't hurt? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Not having ever got my ears pierced I did note that one ear piercing place uses ice to first numb the ear. Whether this is because the piercing itself is painful or whether it is to assuage fears of the customers that it would be painful (when it might not be) I do not know. Googlemeister (talk) 20:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

So when you pierce your ear, and you let it close up, do the nevers grow back?Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 22:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

hysterectomy

Yes, this is a media question. No, it is not media advice. There is no diagnosis or prognosis being requested, it is a simple query for factual information. Please read Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice before hastily and wrongfully removing this question

If a hypothetical woman living in the UK wanted a hysterectomy, but was healthy and had no medical reason to have one, would she be able to have the surgery performed anyway? Obviously the NHS probably wouldn't pay for it, but could this surgery be done privately? Are there any laws preventing someone from having a hysterectomy for personal reasons?

If she is healthy and there is no medical reason to have one, she would likely find it difficult to find a doctor willing to perform unneeded surgery. Googlemeister (talk) 18:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Laws preventing elective surgery seem unlikely. The NHS specifically has information on elective hysterectomies, making a legal prohibition seem even less likely. I'd expect more difficulties finding a doctor willing to perform unnecessary surgery, per GM above. — Lomn 18:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Media or medical? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The surgeon who performed such an operation _might_ be prosecuted for assault, consent notwithstanding (see Operation Spanner), and would be exposed to a very great risk of being struck off for performing an operation he/she knew was unnecessary (see Bolam test). But this probably falls foul of the page's prohibition on giving legal advice... Tevildo (talk) 19:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

prosecuted by who? if the patient was willing, who would be prosecuting?

The Crown Prosecution Service, as it's a criminal offence. Volentia non fit injuria only applies (in English law, at least) to civil cases. To take an extreme example, if I ask you to kill me, and you do so, you're still guilty of murder. Tevildo (talk) 21:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers so far. The main issue seems to be a perceived unnecessary element for the surgery. How about psychological issues? After reading the Hysterectomy article there seems to be a reason for gender reassignment surgery. Would other psychological issues, such as an extreme hate for one's own reproductive system to the point of self harm count as a good enough reason? Again, purely hypothetical.

Ahh, but that is (arguably) a genuine medical reason. There was a case some years ago when a patient suffering from body dysmorphia had his leg amputated, because he would have cut it off himself if left to his own devices. I assume the hypothetical case you mention would be similar. Tevildo (talk) 21:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Stout-Lager beer

Can the Stout beer be considered a Lager? What kind of yeast should I use to make a Stout? 82.59.68.232 (talk) 19:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Stout says "Stout and porter are dark beers, and more specifically ales..." Friday (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think just as long as you have a good brewing yeast you can use any kind. It is specifically the chocolate malt and black malt that gives the stout its dark yet smooth taste (well that depends, of course theres stouts which arent particularly smooth, like rauchbiers). --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, if stouts are normally ale yeast, you're going to have a rather unconventional one if you use lager yeast. What you end up with may be more of a dunkle than a stout. Friday (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

That is of course very true. I mainly wanted to stress that the black colour and flavour itself mostly comes from the way the malt has been roasted, but of course the yeast does play a very important part in the components of the beer as well. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you. My real aim was just to make a dark beer using Lager yeast, so Dunkel style will be perfect! 15 - 18° C (59 - 64.4° F) could be good? Or should I wait some week for autumn's cold? 87.6.126.52 (talk) 23:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Davy Crockett (nuclear device)

How long might it take Iran and North Korea to produce personal portable nuclear weapons like our Davy Crocett and distribute them to suicide bombers and send them to the US? -- Taxa (talk) 23:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Making very small and compact warheads is extremely difficult—the sort of thing that a very well-developed nuclear state could do, but not a new one. It is generally agreed that in order to really develop them, you need to test fire a number of weapons first (you can't just work it out from first principles).

If Iran and North Korea really set their minds to it, they could probably manage it in, I don't know, fifteen years or so, as long as they were able to have a few significant test series in that time (e.g. being able to detonate four or five different designs). That would be a very optimistic guess. More likely would be twenty or thirty years. Keep in mind it took the US twenty years to develop the Davy Crockett originally itself—and that was during a period in which it spends billions of dollars on weapons development. More is publicly known now than was known then, but even so, Iran and North Korea don't have one tenth of the nuclear resources of the United States.

A bigger and better question is whether they would bother. Tactical nuclear weapons are very expensive, very hard to make, and giving them to random terrorists is such a reckless and dangerous thing to do that anybody who wants to stay in power would know better. If you start distributing tactical nuclear weapons, do not be surprised if one goes off somewhere you don't want it to. I don't see this as likely at all—what they want is something of a credible deterrence, something that will keep the U.S. (or Israel) from bombing them. Developing tactical nukes won't do that.

Note that it is much easier to make a nuclear bomb that is, say, the size of a Volkswagen bug. If you wanted to send nukes to the US, you'd find it much easier to make a few of those, put them onto tanker ships, and slip them into the barely-monitored US ports. If you were clever about it, you could take out Boston, San Francisco, and New York for probably 1/10,000th the cost that it would take to develop tactical nuclear weapons. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

But I'm sure we would know about the construction and deployment of a volkswagon size bomb on any size ship coming from Iran or North Korea going by out ability to stop shipments from North Korea. But then we did not know about 9/11 so... -- Taxa (talk) 01:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It's unlikely they would ship directly from North Korea. And I doubt it would be a VW, more like a Smart Car, as kind of a little joke on us. "Smart Car Bomb". Get it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

So Davy Crocket died at El Alamo - was Davy Crockett (nuclear device) exploded at Los Alamos? Another little nuclear humor. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why 9/11 instead of 7/11. -- Taxa (talk) 04:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

September 19

Screens of Hackers

What do the typical black-hat hacker seen on his/her monitor when he/she is hacking? Do they actually use some sort of command-line interface as often depicted in movies? Or do they use programs with a GUI? Acceptable (talk) 01:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If they were to hack using the equivalent of the remote assistance software that comes with XP then it would probably be capable of a GUI interface. Most likely though there is no command line or GUI interface and whatever they want is handled entirely by pre-programmed stuff and automation. -- Taxa (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)