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October 5

Who has the lowest net worth in America? In the world?

Who has the lowest net worth in America? In the world? I realize definitive answers won't be possible. --NilsTycho (talk) 02:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit: For clarification, I am thinking of individuals with a negative net worth. Bernie Madoff is a good guess, as suggested below, but I can't find his current net worth. --NilsTycho (talk) 00:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

A naked homeless person would be your answer for the US. I would imagine quite a few people in so-called Fourth World countries have the same low net worth. Other than these I can't imagine what answer you are looking for. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 02:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) If negative one million dollars is "lower" than negative five hundred thousand dollars, then I expect it's someone quite well off. Very hard to accumulate large negative net worth unless you're rich. --Trovatore (talk) 02:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The working class. →Στc. 02:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't see how the working class would have a lower net worth then the non-working class... Besides, working class is a loaded term. Doctors work, and are well compensated for it, but are not considered working class. Does that make them part of the parasite stomping on the head of the common comrades class? Googlemeister (talk) 18:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think quite a lot of politicians are worthless, but maybe that's not what you had in mind. HiLo48 (talk) 02:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to guess someone in prison who has been ordered to pay millions of dollars of restitution. 69.171.160.19 (talk) 03:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict with 69.171) Read net worth: total assets minus total liabilities. Trovatore is exactly right - it's going to be someone who's "rich", but has massive liabilities. Or maybe someone who had a huge judgement handed against them, one that they'll never realistically pay off (or likely both). Mark Madoff, the late son of Bernard Madoff, apparently owed 22 million USD when he killed himself, but I'm sure there are people with much larger liabilities out there. Buddy431 (talk) 03:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yep, so ignore the thing I said. Is there a list of people by personal debt? :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 03:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that a homeless bum who lives in the woods eating grubs and roots, has far more "net worth" than someone who is millions of dollars/Euros/Yen/Pesos/Rubles/Drachma in debt. Edison (talk) 04:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, I have an idea. The OP did say who, and he didn't specify he wanted one person. Isn't the level of debt related to student loans approaching 1 trillion USD in the US? If so, there's your answer, the college student population has the lowest net worth! (minus myself of course) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 05:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't the population in the US with the lowest net worth be the population of everyone with a net worth below zero (or including zero)? Nil Einne (talk) 12:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, good point; basically everyone with debt that is greater than their assets. What about in the World? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 19:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Presuming we mean an individual, Donald Trump evidently once had a $900 million personal debt (see the article). I'm not sure (and the ref isn't clear to me at least) if this excluded his assests (in other words whether his net worth was -$900 million) and I don't know if we should be looking for something to this level of magnitude or he was a special case. Nil Einne (talk) 12:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Its interesting that a lot of people with the lowest net worth will have a much higher standard of living than your penniless bum with zero net worth or even people with a moderate to average positive net worth. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It is a common fallacy that debt is necessarily a bad thing. Clever use of debt can be the means of generating more revenue. You have to have considerable resources before you can actually get on the level of taking on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of debt. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Reminds me of an old saying: "Owe the bank a thousand dollars, and you will be in trouble if you default ... owe the bank a million dollars, and the bank will be in trouble if you default." The amounts may need to be updated, but the concept is the same. Blueboar (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I might just note that having large personal debts does not necessarily mean one is so hopeless. In the US, most debts can be resolved by declaring bankruptcy. A more refined approach would look at debts that cannot be written off in that way — like student loans, for example, which are magically exempt from this requirement. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Having a low net worth isn't that bad because you can always play country music backwards and get back your wife and your dog and your pickup truck. Bus stop (talk) 15:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It would be someone with the greatest criminal and civil liability not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Perhaps Bernard Madoff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.31.81 (talk) 16:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just because a debt can be discharged in bankruptcy doesn't mean that it doesn't count against your net worth. And having large negative net worth doesn't mean that you're insolvent or that you're even considering bankruptcy. --Trovatore (talk) 18:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If Madoff is a valuable answer for the USA, maybe Jérôme Kerviel is for the world ($6.7 billon dollars) Pleclown (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The United States national debt is 15,000,000,000,00 which, divided by 300,000,000 citizens gives you a debt of $50,000n per U.S citizen. Next? μηδείς (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Japan: $67,000. Singapore: $65,000. Greece: $42,000. Belgium: $38,000. Italy: $34,000. Canada: $32,000. Germany: $30,000. United States: $29,000. The United States only has the largest public debt if you measure it in absolute dollars. If you measure it as a fraction of economy size, it's below the world average, and far below the average for industrialized countries. --Carnildo (talk) 01:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Suitable References for a page documenting a sculptor

Hi there, I'm currently creating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Egan and, whilst the subject is an influential artist in the field I'm having trouble supplying Reliable Sources - in that the artist appears to be quite reclusive and does not give many interviews. I'd appreciate any suggestions re what refs may be acceptable. Michael.j.lacey (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Exhibition reviews in legitimate publications (newspapers, art magazines, art history journals, etc, or their websites); features or interviews in similar publications (interviews with other artists may be used to justify judgments of the artist's work); exhibition catalogues; articles in academic journals; small amounts of uncontroversial information may also be taken from the websites of the artist or their dealers, or even from Facebook etc, provided there are also other reliable sources cited. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Average processing fee for credit cards?

In light of Bank Of America's enactment of a monthly fee on debit cards, it is widely reported that the average debit card transaction costs the retailer 44 cents. How much does the average credit card transaction cost? Thanks. 66.108.223.179 (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It depends greatly on the merchant system. There is usually a fixed fee per transaction (around 25 cents). Then, there is a percentage of the transaction on top of that (anywhere from 0.5% to 5% - and it can be different for AmEx or Discover). To make it more complicated, those who don't run a lot of transactions are often charged a minimum monthly fee while those who do a lot of transactions are often given a discount. Therefore, it is very difficult to calculate the average. -- kainaw™ 13:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Is that right? I heard that in the UK there is not a fixed transaction fee for debit cards (unlike credit cards), which is why they are suitable for small transactions. Many shops you won't be able to use a credit card for purchases of under £1, and often under £5 - and I think the cards themselves have a minimum limit of 50p, whereas debit cards are allowed. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:40, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The laws in the UK may be vastly different than those of the US. The OP used the word "cents" which would suggest that they are from a country that uses cents and not pence. Normally, when unspecified, the OPs are from the US. Therefore kainaw's answer is likely accurate for the OP since he talks about US law. And for the sake of completeness, the OP's IP geolocates to New York. Dismas|^(talk) 14:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

See also Interchange fee. --LarryMac | Talk 14:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Interchange fee is what you want to see, but I just want to say that the processing fee (not subsidized in any way) for debit cards is $0.00825 in Canada, the total transaction fee takes into account more such as having to own the processing machine and the profit cut the processor demands, and is closer to $0.50. [1] Public awareness (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this how disparity in income should be viewed?

I have an income at the poverty level of $10,980 per year while the average income is $49,500 per year. I pay 10% of my income to ride the bus every day while someone with average income pays the same. The percent of the average income is 2.2%. in terms of disparity the same purchases are 4.54 times more difficult for me. --DeeperQA (talk) 14:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You may find the article Economic inequality to be interesting. One thing I must note, is that it isn't as simple as comparing relative amounts, percents, or fractions of income with regard to quantifying something like "difficulty" with regards to monetary outlay. Someone who has an income of, say, $1,000,000 per year can lose 10% of their income without a significant change in lifestyle, and more importantly, without significant effect on their well-being. Someone who has an income of $10,000 per year who loses 10% of their income is in serious real danger. People often look at raw percents as a measure of fairness; i.e. people who propose a straight flat tax of some arbitrary percent, as a way of being purely fair (i.e. everyone gives the same fraction of their income); which ignores the fact that the same fraction of income applied to different amounts of income has different effects (a relatively small percentage loss of income to someone at the poverty limit can be devastating, while a larger percentage from someone who is so wealthy they could live comfortably without any further income for the rest of their lives would have less impact on their survival ability). --Jayron32 15:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This is essentially the concept of marginal utility. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Flat taxes are highly regressive because of this. This is similar to lendors using flat fees to get around usury laws. Public awareness (talk) 21:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Labourism, a predominantly 20th century phenomena, viewed income disparity as a failure of workers to access a normatively established bundle of goods—for example primary school education, milk for children, health care for birthing mothers, piped water, sanitary sewer systems, buildings with certain volumes. This was also tied to a growing consumer economy, and imperialist access to social profits. This is a very different view to the marginalist view. Marxist and anarchist views throughout the 20th century viewed income disparity as a tactical accommodation in what amounted to Gramsci's war of position; for a highly developed Marxist theory of income tactics in capitalism, see Trotsky's conception of the transitional demand: basically demanding unachievable incomes as a stepping stone to demanding control of production. In practice, many labourite trade unions effectively followed Trotsky's position, but retreated to incomes that capitalists were willing to award—this meant that in Fordism which we've talked about above, actual incomes depended on the strategic position of workers in capitalist production (Automotive workers often got much more than female office typists), the union power of the workers bargaining, and the political "militance" or willingness to fight of unionists. For the labourite position, insufficient income is a moral outrage. Social Catholicism seems to share a lot with the labourite position, and liberation theology seems like the normative moral position of Catholicism taken to the final conclusion. To the revolutionary position, insufficient income is a constant of capitalism. Other major 20th century alternate views of income on the left include the cooperative movement's attempts to supplement incomes outside of the market (quite often by increasing the _quality_ of goods consumed at the same price, so bread that's actually worth eating, for example); or the working classes' development of black, grey or non-market incomes, such as growing your own vegetables or part time prostitution. Access to cooperatives or grey/black/non-market income supplements varies with political climate. The expected bundle of consumer goods that income represents has changed so dramatically over the 20th century that some goods, such as not dying from throwing your festering sewage into the street (ie: paying for the saniman to take your shit away), aren't even considered by many Western workers—this makes talking about income even more difficult. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Wiki editors rescinding copyright license grant

The Italian Wikipedia blanking has reminded me of something I've wondered about for a long time. The text below the box into which I am typing this says, "By clicking the 'Save Page' button, you agree to the Terms of Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL." However, the Wikimedia Foundation gives me nothing of value in return for this "irrevocable" license grant, so there is no consideration of a contract, so in most cases such an agreement would not be binding. Is there any legal reason that I or anyone else can not rescind such a grant? Is there any case law on this point? 69.171.160.204 (talk) 15:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The only circumstances in which it's non-binding, that I'm aware of, is if the contributor is a minor. Please don't tell the children :-) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The foundation gives you the use of its facilities into which you place your contribution - the server and the mediawiki softwware user interface. Arguably these are consideration, though IINAL etc. You also consent to the agreement by pressing the save page button, so it might be a little difficult to rescind it. INteresting question, nevertheless. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That is offered to contributors and non-contributors alike, so it can not be construed as consideration. 64.134.156.47 (talk) 17:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Editing facilities are used only by contributors. Shades of the hotelier's wife argument in your riposte...it's not what is offered, it is what is taken. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I utterly lack the legal knowledge to contribute meaningfully, but might the answer be found in the case law on EULAs and Terms of service? Because that seems more pertinent to the contract question than the fact that what you are releasing are copyright rights. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You are assuming it is a contract. It is not. You are agreeing to grant a license with certain terms, not agreeing to a contract. The word agree is not synonymous with contract. Here, it means "I consent." EULAs don't apply. The EULA is a contract law answer to copyright. The EULA does not fall under copyright law but provides the same function by operation of contract law. The license agreement uses copyright law rather than avoids it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.31.81 (talk) 16:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Contract law normally would apply to uncompensated license grants but in the U.S., Congress has specified other terms in statute: "In the US, termination of copyright licenses is governed by Section 203 of the Copyright Code, which allows for termination 35 to 40 years after a license is granted. In Rano v. Sipa Press the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that because of section 203, nonexclusive copyright licenses of unspecified duration cannot be terminated before this 35 year date.... However, other courts have vehemently disagreed with Rano v. Sipa [so] copyright licenses with unspecified durations may or may not be terminable at will."[2] So the answer in this case is, yes, everyone can rescind the grant of their license, 35 to 40 years after they press "save page" when no consideration has changed hands. 64.134.156.47 (talk) 17:40, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That is quite interesting and is probably the most correct answer here. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia commenced operations in 2002 or so, right? We can start worrying about it in 2035, maybe 2030. My hunch is there's not going to be any practical way that this is going to matter, except maybe helping a few lawyers cover some billable hours. --Trovatore (talk) 20:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You aren't entering into a contract with anyone. You are licensing the stuff you type. Consideration isn't a factor. Anyway, this question is close enough to a legal advice question that you should just address it to the Wikimedia Foundation, which has actual lawyers who know all about this. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually it's exactly a contract. What other kind of one person "agreement" do you envision? The author gives a nonexclusive license, subject to all the GPL etc terms, to reuse the work. The OP has actually a very interesting point about § 203... it's something I've thought about myself somewhat... I don't have a good answer. This is something that's the ample subject of a law review article. I think it's actually been done, but I don't have the resources to find that source right now. You should look for it though.

I'm a little disappointed here about all the wildly wrong answers given here in the upmost of confident tones. Shadowjams (talk) 10:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, there's plenty of consideration. See consideration for more about that. Shadowjams (talk) 10:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I struck my inaccurate stuff above; I was in haste; my apologies. I will strive to provide references in the future, which we are all supposed to be doing anyway, not only because this is a reference desk and references help the querents research their topic further; but because finding references reduces mistaken answers and hasty answers in the first place. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Bonds and rates

Hi everyone,

I have a question on government bonds and interest rates: essentially, I want to understand how the two are tied together. For example, on the one hand the bank of england is maintaining a low interest rate of 0.5%, and on the other hand you have government bonds of all different maturities, prices and yields. I guess in some sense the yield is effectively the interest rate you get for putting your money in the government bond, so then in effect these yields are the interest rates the government has to pay to borrow money, right? So then what does the rate of 0.5% refer to, is it just some 'recommended rate' at which banks are expected to lend within the UK? Because obviously there's also Euribor and LIBOR, so what's the point of the 'low rate' maintained by the BoE (or equivalently the fed) to encourage borrowing? Is this something like the rate at which the central bank lends out money to other banks? I gather that a rise in the 'interest rate' will make the yields on bonds less attractive (e.g. if 10Y yields were 2% and then the interest rate shot up to 5%, the price of the bond should drop correspondingly). Could anyone explain how interest rates and bond rates are related to me or give me some general context on how this all works? (I use England as an example but obviously it could equivalently be the Fed or elsewhere.)

Thanks a lot! 86.26.13.2 (talk) 17:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Most of what you wrote is correct. The current yield is the interest rate that you get for putting your money in the bond, yes; but more relevant is the yield to maturity, which also counts the fact that when the bond matures in 30 years (or 10 years, or 6 months, or whatever) then the government pays the bond owner the amount that was originally put in. I recommend The Bond Book by Annette Thau for a very readable and thorough treatment of bonds for the layman. (It was written before the current financial disaster, so a lot of the material about GNMA bonds and the like is a little dated.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be sure to track the book down! So the rate quoted in (say) the FT is the current yield, rather than the YTM? And do all the movements of these rates tend to track one another? e.g., if the BoE puts the rate up from 0.5% to 1%, would you expect a) the yield on government bonds to go up? b) the interest rate of something like a retail bank account (despite the fact these are obviously set by the banks themselves) to go up? Because if the yield to maturity discounts the final sum of money paid back (the bond value) at the interest rate set by the government, then that yield is only accurate in theory if the investor was otherwise able to keep their money and receive that amount of interest, right? By which I mean, if you discount the final payout of e.g. £100 by a factor of 1/1+r for say a 1Y bond, then that assumes you could have otherwise basically invested your £100 risk-free for a year to receive £100(1+r) back at the end. However, is that 'r' going to be 0.5% when the yield to maturity is calculated? Because from the sound of the comment below, that r is only the interest rate a bank would pay to borrow from the central bank and would have nothing to do with e.g. an individual investor. Hope that makes sense! Thanks :) 86.26.13.2 (talk) 23:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The 0.5% value is the rate that the BoE charges to some banks when it lends them money. The bond rates are the rates that you get when you lend money to the English government. Looie496 (talk) 21:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course, there is no English government since England doesn't have its own government. The Bank of England, despite its name, sets interbank lending rates for the entire United Kingdom, whose British government is the main issuer of government bonds in England and other parts of the United Kingdom. Marco polo (talk) 17:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Police vehicle pursuits

Where in the world do police vehicle pursuits occur most often. What state in the US do vehicle pursuits occur most often and where in Ireland are police vehicle pursuits most common. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.134.16 (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

They seem pretty common in California. I suspect that it is the state that has the most car chases, but could not tell you which county in Ireland would. Googlemeister (talk) 18:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Statistics agencies seem to only keep records of crimes (I don't think being chased is yet a crime?) so having this info available would depend on all the police forces making the stats available. For Ireland, the Garda has research unit that you could email and ask. 184.147.120.196 (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Being chased is a crime in a way. It's usually called "resisting arrest" and that is a crime in every US jurisdiction that I know of. You could find stats for that maybe but I doubt very many departments break it down for statistical purposes between simply running from the cops and getting caught up in a car chase. Dismas|^(talk) 23:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Being chased is definitely crime, Resisting arrest. Statistics are definitely kept on car chase in the developed world. I to imagine California has the most car chases. It is the most populous state and it contains LA which is a highly populated metro area where there is little public transportation and most people (including those who the police like to stop) drive cars. LA was known for its televised car chases (from news helicopters) particularly in the late 90s and early 2000s. I have no idea about Ireland, but high population and vehicle ownership are the key factors. The other factor is police procedure. Car chases are very dangerous not only for those involved but also other road users. Situations where innocent people are killed as a result of car chases, especially when the suspect was not dangerous, have led to changes in procedure where not everyone who runs is chased. These procedures very from place to place and I don't have any details. --Daniel 23:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't answer the original poster's question, but because California is being discussed in the above two paragraphs, I have to write to contradict them. In California, being chased by a police car and not stopping is not resisting arrest. All it is is "failure to yield", which is a mere traffic violation. The word seemed to have spread after the OJ Simpson "slow speed pursuit" because when chases became entertainment on the live news shows, one would see the aerial shot of the police car or two with lights and sirens on, following a car which was carefully stopping completely at every stop sign and travelling at just below the speed limit, because the driver knew that his only crime so far was a failure to yield, and he didn't want to pile on any more offenses like not stopping at a red light. Comet Tuttle (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It's actually usually called eluding an officer or something similar. Resisting arrest has a very different set of elements, in many cases. But yes, running from the law is pretty universally a crime, whether on foot, or in a car, or over a series of decades. As per which state is the worst... who knows... California, namely Los Angeles seems to have an inordinate amount of these but maybe that's cause the LAPD loves its helicopters, or maybe the LA News media is sensationalized (imagine) or maybe it's because LA has a unique culture of... whatever. Who knows. Depending on how you cook the statistics I'm sure one could find any state with a lot of driving pursuits. Shadowjams (talk) 10:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

NFL numbers with "O"

Looking at the Chief's roster, I noticed that some numbers have the letter O following them. It could be a database or programming error. If not, is there some significance of the O after the number? -- kainaw™ 19:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It may be either a) a glitch or b) signify that the player is "Out". The NFL uses a standard code on official injury reports: P= Probable, Q= Questionable, D= Doubtful, O= Out (see this page for the usage). Perhaps the roster is tagging those players which have an injury status of "out". --Jayron32 19:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but it also has some people on the practice squad listed that way as well, and it seems unlikely that every single other player on the active roster is fully healthy... They also forgot to give Steve Maneri his number 68. Googlemeister (talk) 19:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

During the preseason, teams often give the same number out for two players (especially linemen). So 71o means that he's the offensive player 71, whereas 71d would mean defensive. See these preseason rosters They must've forgot to take out the 'o' after the other 71 was cut or assigned a new number. Hot Stop talk-contribs 19:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

changeover to non-profit

Is changeover of public utilities to non-profit corporations the best or easiest way to prevent the Occupy Wall Street movement from turning violent? --DeeperQA (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Best" is a matter of opinion. Easiest is also based on your point of view. If you simply want to stop a group from turning violent, nerve gas is a very very easy method to ensure they don't do anything violent. It isn't an ethical way to do it, but it is easy. -- kainaw™ 20:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Where will all the money to buy the stock from the shareholders come from, so the shares can be turned over to the non-profit? Jc3s5h (talk) 20:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Investors are perfectly entitled and invited to retain their stock since some feel that the failure to disclose amount of markup to a buyer is the equivalent of retail theft. --DeeperQA (talk) 21:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Also note that the "movement" doesn't have any clear agenda and doesn't have any form of exit strategy. It is absorbing media attention while it can. When the media attention dies out, there will be nothing much left to do. If an agenda does appear at some point in time, then an exit strategy of ending the movement when the action items are met can be produced. With an exit strategy, the movement can truly end. -- kainaw™ 20:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

No. The banks are seen as central villains by this movement, not the electric companies. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Telecommunications have been deregulated in Florida by a Republican Governor and Republican controlled legislature. What will most likely follow is the same heuristic greed as banks only using public necessities like banks use debit cards and cash. --DeeperQA (talk) 21:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It is a cycle. Privately held services are considered greedy bastards and the service is taken over by the government. Then, government run services waste resources and provide terrible service. To get good service, the service is deregulated. Then, the privately held services are considered greedy bastards and the service is taken over by the government. Then, government run services waste resources and provide terrible services. To get good service, the service is deregulated... -- kainaw™ 23:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't even understand how that makes sense to consumers. A private corporation with no competition may trim allegedly wasteful spending, but there would be no incentive to pass that along to the customers. They'd trim it specifically to give it to the share-holders. APL (talk) 09:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Duh! Your mistake is assuming that humans operate on intelligence. Even hedgehogs are smart enough to know that most of what humans do is purely idiotic: Government is pocketing our tax money with utilities. Make it private. The company is pocketing our tax money with utilities. Make it government. Then there are many other common ones: I am tired of paying taxes for poor schools. Make a lottery. Now I'm paying three times as much on losing lottery tickets and the schools still suck. There are ones that can even trick the hedgehogs if they aren't paying attention: Let's cut property tax and replace it with increased sales tax. The poor people who don't own property rejoice at the idea of cutting taxes! Idiots. -- kainaw™ 13:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Completely irrelevant to your original question. If the primary concern of the movement is banks then there no reason to think changing public utilities to non-profits is going to make a big difference to the movement, in particular stop them turning violent, regardless of what happened in Florida and what may happen there in the (likely fairly distant in comparison) future. If you are here to continue to rant about what's happening in Florida please do it elsewhere. Nil Einne (talk) 06:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Is it really a movement if it goes nowhere? Googlemeister (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Brownian -- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Some people think it's not necessarily going nowhere. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The discourse of protest as "violence" has a long and disreputable history, based on the constructions of working class behaviour as inherently violent. E.P. Thompson's observations on the radical nature of the London Mob in the Making of the English Working Class, the construction of "physical force Chartism" as violence, and (for anyone who's protested in their life), the nature of policing of protests where the State clearly instigates violence in unprovoked manners ought to put the lie to "violent protest" (See the Ombudsman's report into police violence at the Melbourne World Economic Forum protests, policing on the Third Day morning for one of my own experiences, from an eye witness perspective we were beaten from above while complying with police instruction within the time limits they set). Getting caught up in a media discourse on "violence" is stupid politics. A variety of publications on direct action, the inheritor of the "physical force" perspective, give decent instructions on how to democratically control tactics. As far as violence as strategy, see Foco, Symbionese Liberation Army, and Red Army Faction for concrete reasons why violence isn't strategy, for the theoretical perspective on why violence is stupid strategy see the famous Australian pamphlet You can't blow up a social relationship which is a succinct account. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The occupy Wall Street movement is a pretty long-lasting protest, but I'd be really astonished if the government could socialize a utility before it eventually disbands. It's just barely more plausible that the utility company could buy itself out and become non-profit in that same time period. Even if by some miracle that did happen, the Occupy Wall Street crowd would probably (correctly) see it as a distraction from their main goal. APL (talk) 09:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

"They're all so smart these days"

I've noticed that old people who see their descendants often say that the children and young people are "very bright/smart/clever, but then they all are, these days, aren't they?". Do we have records of this being something that old people have always said, or is it something we only know happens now?

I mean this in the way that we have centuries of old people saying that young people are less disciplined, or less well-behaved, or that colours are less bright and tastes less powerful. Do we have such cases of old people down the centuries saying that all young people are clever these days? 86.163.1.168 (talk) 22:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any specific examples of what you are asking for, but I do have a thought. Technology is creating rapidly changing lifestyles. Young people are very good at adapting to change. Older people are less skilled at adapting and the very old find it nearly impossible, my 93 year old grandma (while perfectly intelligent) really cannot be taught to use a computer and struggles to even conceptualize the internet. To the elderly, a young person picking up an iPhone and intuitively knowing how to use this strange device is an impressive feat. In the past change was slower. I imagine in hunter gatherer cultures were their is virtually no change from generation to generation this idea of the new generation being brilliant doesn't come up very often. --Daniel 22:58, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm in my sixties. I teach Information Technology to high school kids. They're nowhere near as smart as they think they are. HiLo48 (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Then someone is not doing a very good job. :D Public awareness (talk) 00:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Daniel, though there is a bit more to it. Average intelligence has actually noticeably risen over the last century, many believe this is due to better diets especially during childhood and due to increased access to education materials. See Flynn effect. Public awareness (talk) 00:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the first well known "young clever clogs" to be significantly influential was Alcibiades. He had the advantage of both aristocratic background and of being adopted by the mighty statesman Pericles, as well as being both a student and a romantic interest of Socrates (who also supposedly saved his life in battle). By his late 20's he was working aggressively to overturn agreements made with the Spartans, reportedly because he was "offended that the Spartans had negotiated that treaty through Nicias and Laches, overlooking him on account of his youth", according to our article. Nicias would've been in his late 40's at the time, and Alcibiades was able to out-manoeuvre and embarrass him in the Athenian Assembly - certainly a clear indication that the democracy did not defer to more experienced politicians if a bright spark was mouthy enough. (And Alcibiades had a reputation for being unruly).

Established Athenian society certainly did chatter disapprovingly about the youthful cleverness of Alcibiades and men like him, in fact one element of the charges against Socrates was "corrupting the young", a phrase undoubtedly chosen with Alcibiades in mind. The important aspects here were not so much technology (hoplite weaponry and triremes were not much different in 421 B.C. to sixty years earlier, although tactics had developed), but philosophical and rhetorical finesse and astute handling of politics in an age where strategic and diplomatic relations were becoming increasingly complex. Alcibiades was later able to manipulate the Spartans too, and then the Persians, and then get himself reinstated as an Athenian general even after having previously defected to the Spartans, before he finally got too old to keep up with his own webs of intrigue, and was assassinated in his mid-forties. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP meant in general, not certain cases, "old people...saying that all young people are clever these days" Public awareness (talk) 09:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

From my own observations, the current generation is full of moronic, sex-crazed bespoiled people with neither morals nor manners, who constantly swear and dress like slobs. You'd be hard-pressed to find the select few do not have those qualities. It is a generation I am sure nobody would envy living in. →Στc. 06:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I hope you are only saying that mockingly, I mean that's what the voters for Joseph McCarthy sounded like. Elvis shaking his hips, girls wearing pants, children using the word "damn", boys not tucking in their shirts!

Incase you believed your own words, were the previous generations better? Nuclear weapons, Slavery, Religion, War, Climate Change, Pollution, Colonialism, Genocide, Chastity belt, KKK. Public awareness (talk) 09:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course there are spoiled, sex-crazed, cursing, poorly dressed, and ill-mannered morons in my generation, just as there are in your generation (I can say that confidently without a clue about how old you are), but I have to say that it has not been particularly challenging for me to find very kind, responsible people to hang out with. Now as for envy, we are coming into adulthood into a broken society with massive debt and monstrous degradation of the environment (largely not our fault... Well, we haven't had much time to exacerbate the issue yet anyway), coupled with the tremendous stress that comes from living in such a rapidly changing world. You probably have a point there; I can't imagine many would envy living in our generation. Falconus^{p t c} 10:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure why you included "Chastity belt" in there, since historically this seems to have been used mainly by a quite small number of wealthy Renaissance (not medieval) merchants to enforce fidelity on their often much-younger wives. It really was not a major social problem at any period of history... AnonMoos (talk) 10:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Unless you were a much younger wife? NB, the legal age of marriage was 12 for girls in European middle ages and renaissance. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It was major if it happened to you -- but it only happened to a very tiny minority of the population... AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Like dowry bride burnings today, which is seen as a social problem. Arguably it is the same social problem. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to diminish the seriousness of it, but wearing a Renaissance chastity belt did not leave a wife incapacitated for her ordinary duties, and to judge from contemporary caricatures they were often singularly ineffective in their main intended purpose (if the wife had a little gumption and resourcefulness). I was not questioning whether they would be unpleasant to wear (though usually not actively harmful), I was questioning why something that only affected a minuscule percentage of the population was grouped together with "Genocide", "Slavery", and "KKK"... AnonMoos (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I was just painting a picture, not the particulars, but what they stand for, chastity belt (can also stop masturbation) was to show sexual repression, the opposite of "sex-crazed". Public awareness (talk) 02:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The majority of Victorian anti-masturbation devices could not be worn under ordinary clothes, and were more aids to help prevent youth from succumbing to nightly temptations and/or involuntary "nocturnal emissions", rather than being chastity belts as we would think of them. I'm sure that in some cases chastity belts have been used to inflict mental cruelty and/or somewhat low-level but chronic physical discomfort, but historically they were a very minor phenomenon, and so looked out of place in your list of major problems... AnonMoos (talk) 05:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the premise of the question. Most older people seem to complain that the younger generation is not as good as their own. A few historical examples: Socrates allegedly said that "“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”. The 17th century Japanese Bushido handbook, Hagakure includes a lengthy diatribe on how young men were becoming more effeminate, lazy and disrespectful. Orlando Gibbons wrote (also in the 17th century) "Farewell, all joys! O Death, come close mine eyes! More Geese than Swans now live, more Fools than Wise." In the UK today, there is a widespread belief that improving exam results only prove that the exams are getting easier[3][4]. Alansplodge (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

As Daniel has pointed out, technology change is the most significant factor. If you think the younger generation is dumb it may be because they don't know how to do math with a pencil and paper or "in their head". If you think the younger generation is smart it is because they are whizz kids with computers. Yada yada. Interestingly, it is grandparents that may have given a boost to human development. As this article points out, grandparents only became common around 30,000 years ago. "This surge in the number of seniors may have been a driving force for the explosion of new tool types and art forms that occurred in Europe at around the same time."[5] Bus stop (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ya, I can't do math in my head to save my life. :( My gf only got herself doing it again through very hard work. Yes, Prof. Allison Brooks talked about the importance of grandmothers on early human development (by which I mean; when kids are young, not early hominins) and that being a reason for women living long past the point at which they can reproduce. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 05:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm 21 (22 next month!), and even I know that my generation is filled with people who are none too bright and nihilistic (case in point, my little sister). I think that things like Facebook and Twitter (where people can share the most boring details of their humdrum lives) are to blame. Out of curiosity, when did like start being used as frequently as it is today? (Annoying fun-fact: Israeli kids use the Hebrew word for like as much as American kids do and in the same context; though the maturity imparted to them by military service usually fixes that). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 05:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

So, from this it sounds like my suspicions were right: while complaints from old people that young people in general are more decadent/corrupt/uneducated/undisciplined/disrespectful/lazy/selfish than in the past have been recorded throughout history as generally things that old people say, the phenomenon of old people saying that young people in general are cleverer than in the past is only something recent. Which would be indicative of the change over the last few generations being genuinely different in some way(s) to the change over previous generations.

Hmmm, I'd hoped for some sobering historical perspective: this has been less reassuring than I'd hoped. Thanks to those who answered the question asked. 86.163.1.168 (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if the current generation is smarter--although the Flynn effect would seem to suggest that it is--but today's children have definitely been brought up in a more compassionate world. Note that the accusations of "moronic, sex-crazed bespoiled people with neither morals nor manners, who constantly swear and dress like slobs" as well as "none too bright and nihilistic", even if they were true, are very minor accusations compared to the adjectives this generation can justifiably use to describe older generations. Examples: racist, sexist, xenophobic, war-hawks, cruel, inhumane, uncompassionate, greedy, myopic (for ruining the environment), prudish, self-righteous, arrogant. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, there you go. While previous generations fought wars for independence, to end slavery, to defeat the Racist Nazis and the Japanese Empire, freed Eastern Europe from the Soviet Union, ended legal discrimination against blacks, women and homosexuals, this generation is free to stand on its own total lack of accomplishment and libel the accomplishments of those coming before it. See useful idiot. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Previous generations may have fought wars of independence, but Arab Spring youth fought several wars of independence (albeit independence from dictators, not other countries) in the span of half a year. Previous generations may have ended slavery, defeated the Nazis, the Japanese, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union, but they also created and/or supported slavery, Nazis, the Japanese Empire, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union in the first place. I'm surprised that you even brought up discrimination, because today's youth are much less discriminatory than even a generation ago, ESPECIALLY against homosexuals. See Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#Generational_differences. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 22:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

140, I don't know either, and I doubt we can measure it in a reliable way to give a satisfying answer. But it does seem to be true that something is different between the generations, in a different way to the usual generation gap throughout human history. The pejoratives used against young people today are the same pejoratives used against their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents, ad infinitum, so is either a constant trend (unlikely) or just old people being scared grouches: the praise is not, and so seem to reflect an actual difference. What that difference is, I wouldn't venture to guess. 86.163.1.168 (talk) 19:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, 140.180.16.144. Well, unfortunately it was the conservative Rehnquist court of 2003, composed entirely of geezers all born before 1945, which voted 6-3 in Lawrence v. Texas to overthrow sodomy laws as such, even after that progressive Clinton's support for DADT. Them damn Republican bigots of the older generation! How unfortunate that when I came out at 16 in the early Eighties that my conservative strictly church-going Catholic family didn't disown me. Or you might have a case. Let us all grovel at the feet of the tweens of today and their accomplishment of not having been brought up by people who were brought up by people who were brought up by bigots. But don't let me challenge the narrativeμηδείς (talk) 04:55, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

It's clear that you're trying to discredit what you perceive to be my viewpoints by taking random guesses at my age, political views, religious views, and nationality. I responded to the OP's comment that the current generation might be different by offering one way they are different: they've been brought up in a more compassionate world, and are much less likely to be bigoted. Your comments have been completely irrelevant to either my point or the OP's questions. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 00:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Recommendations solicited

I'm looking for articles or books about the question of how life emerged from inert matter. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Abiogenesis is what you are searching for. Ask in the Science RD things like this next time. Quest09 (talk) 22:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about the philosophical rather than scientific aspects. Thanks for your answer, but next time, leave your patronizing attitude at the door. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Abiogenesis has references to other articles and a lengthy further reading section. Talk Origins also has some relevant material; though their bibliography is rather short. --Colapeninsula (talk) 22:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Clarityfiend - your question read entirely as a scientific one to me. I don't how you can think a normal reader could get anything else out of it. There was nothing patronising in Quest09's reply. I think an apology is due. HiLo48 (talk) 23:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, I agree with HiLo48. @Clarityfiend: Complain in some talk page about things like this next time. Quest09 (talk) 00:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess an apology is in order. Mea culpa. However, I'm not exactly a newbie here. That should have indicated the query wasn't misplaced. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

What level of philosophical aspects? Carl Sagan or deeper? --Mr.98 (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

A lot of "pure" scientists were jealous of Sagan because he was better at explaining things than they were. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not dogging Sagan. It's a question of whether he wants philosophy with a lower-case or capital P, really. The academic discipline of Philosophy is a very different beast that Carl Sagan's approach to philosophy. I prefer Sagan, personally. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Jolly good. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really sure, but probably Sagan-ish. It's for my dad. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe The Mind of God by Paul Davies?? I think if abiogenesis isn't what you are after, the only remaining questions would concern self-awareness, which is a whole other topic. It's been emotional (talk) 03:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how this question may have a "philosophical" approach. You possibly want a popular science approach (like Carl Sagan, which is simplified but of quality). Or maybe you just want some philosophical approach to consciousness, but the process itself is a science topic. Wikiweek (talk) 13:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You may be surprised, but there is a huge amount of seemingly science topics done in the humanities — philosophy of biology being perhaps the most relevant here. Much of it is decidedly non-popular. See also evolutionary ethics, science and technology studies and on and on and on. There are plenty of "big questions" to go around. Many folks who you probably categorize as in the "scientist" category on issues like this (like Daniel Dennett) are often self-categorized as philosophers. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the original question is a bit misleading. Just because something is not alive does not mean it is inert. The sun is very much not alive in any conventional sense, but it is certainly not inert, either. For a scientific perspective on a popular science level, I found the first few chapters of Nick Lane's Life ascending to be a very interesting and very plausible view on the beginning of life. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Per Mr. 98 — it's not an amazingly common discipline, but here at Indiana University Bloomington we have an entire Department of the History and Philosophy of Science, and they're definitely on the humanities side. Nyttend (talk) 05:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

October 6

Abraham Lincoln and African American colonization policy

There is debate when Abraham Lincoln actually gave up his colonization plan of the Freedmen. The common assumption is that Lincoln gave up this policy in 1863. Did President Lincoln ever give up on his colonization program for African American Freedmen? Here is a source: Colonization After Emancipation: Lincoln and the Movement for Black Resettlement Cmguy777 (talk) 03:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that Lincoln toyed with the idea at various times in his life from the 1840s on, without ever really having any great confidence or high hopes that it would turn out to be feasible on the massive scale which would be needed to have a real impact... AnonMoos (talk) 10:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

My concern was President Lincoln's actual policy. He did have an colonization policy effective in his administration. The question is how extensive was this "emigration" policy during and after 1863. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Lincoln was certainly influenced by the fact that his political hero Henry Clay was a strong advocate of colonization, and he tended to think that it would be be a good idea if practically workable -- but he also tended to have significant doubts about whether it was in fact practically workable. What Wikipedia has is at American_Colonization_Society#Lincoln_and_the_ACS and Abraham_Lincoln_on_slavery#Colonization. There were some general favorable public statements, and certain small-scale experiments (mostly unsuccessful, it seems), but a truly serious colonization plan would have tied up significant elements of the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, and U.S. merchant shipping for years, so that large areas of Africa or Central America could have been made somewhat safe for the immigration of U.S. blacks, who would then be transported in their hundreds of thousands along with necessary farming implements, etc. What evidence is there that Lincoln was preparing the U.S. public for this, or that anyone in the U.S. government was seriously planning for it? AnonMoos (talk) 05:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

That depends how "serious" is defined in terms of governmental colonization. Obviously President Lincoln was serious concerning colonization, since African Americans were colonized by President Lincoln. The real question behind colonization whether Lincoln had views that blacks and whites could not live together. This was Thomas Jefferson's, the arch southern conservative's point of view. Lincoln was from the South. Remember Lincoln never intended to free the slaves. Colonization is controversial because the Great Emancipator wanted to get blacks out of the country that he may have believed was just for whites. Lincoln's colonization policy was based on humanitarianism towards African Americans and his views in limited suffrage for African Americans. Lincoln, as far as I know never advocated that all blacks be given citizenship and voting rights. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As has been discussed here before, saying "Lincoln was from the South" as a simple blanket statement could have rather misleading implications. Lincoln left Kentucky (an "upper south" or "border" state) as a small child, and had extended family ties in the upper south, and saw the workings of slavery up close on a number of occasions -- but neither he nor any members of his immediate family were ever slave-owners, and the large-scale Lower South type of cotton plantation which is often associated with the image of the antebellum U.S. South would have been quite remote from their daily lives. Lincoln hated slavery, and was willing to say so very publicly on a number of occasions from 1837 on, which strongly differentiates him from Thomas Jefferson. Lincoln thought that blacks had natural rights, and that their interests needed to be considered and slavery slowly phased out, but he was far from enthusiastic about granting full political and social equality to them, or opening the door to the dreaded "amalgamation" -- which placed him into the moderate progressive (NOT "conservative") camp in the context of the United States in the 1840s-1850s. It's useless to blame Lincoln for not being a thoroughly-consistent immediatist abolitionist or racial-equality advocate, because he never claimed to be any of those things, and someone who held such views would have had no realistic chance to be elected president of the U.S. in 1860. Meanwhile, a truly serious colonization policy (as opposed to rhetoric which was not backed up by anything except tentative small-scale experiments) would have involved using the U.S. military to clear a huge empire in the tropics, and elaborate logistical preparations for transporting about 4 million U.S. Blacks to this empire... AnonMoos (talk) 11:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Lincoln was a civil rights President in the 19th Century. Lincoln married into a slave holding family and received profit from the sale of his father-in-laws slaves after his father-in-law died. He had ties to Kentucky, even while he was President. I am not here to argue concerning Lincoln's general view of slavery. My question is whether Lincoln gave up on his emigration policy, minor or major by 1865. I can't find any evidence that he did and if he had remained President would he have launched a full scale emigration policy. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, what would be considered basic justice today was a radical position in the 1840s-1850s, and though Lincoln was publicly hostile to slavery, he wasn't a radical (until he was eventually led to it by the logic of what was needed to win the war). Meanwhile, I don't know that anybody in the U.S. government was seriously planning to create a mega-Liberia, and not having any intention to create a mega-Liberia meant that there was not much realistic possibility of colonization being carried out on the scale that would be needed to significantly diminish the black population in the U.S. AnonMoos (talk) 04:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

President Johnson, Lincoln's predecesor, as far as I know never attempted to start a colonization plan, and he was much more conservative then President Lincoln. That would mean Lincoln believed in colonization, but just did not find the application of the program practical. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Legal action for using a name?

No, not a request for legal advice. Read the final section of the "Production" section of "The Principal and the Pauper", an episode of The Simpsons — one of the show's writers gave a character the name of an obscure insurance adjuster, and when the adjuster learned that his name had been used and contacted the writer, the writer feared legal action, although none ended up happening. How could anyone possibly have grounds for legal action just because his/her name was used in a TV show and not in reference to him/her? Nyttend (talk) 10:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Defamation. That's why fictional presentations often include the disclaimer that any resemblance to real people is purely coincidental. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

See also the second group of responses at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 10#novel characters, as well as The Girl in a Swing#Characters. Deor (talk) 11:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I never heard that story, but in a later Simpsons episode, Homer changes his name to Max Power after seeing a Homer Simpson on a tv show (the episode is Homer to the Max). Our article doesn't say if the two incidents are related though. Hot Stop talk-contribs 16:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Likely, the suit would be for invasion of privacy: misappropriation of name or likeness and violation of right to publicity. Defamation would not likely occur unless the plaintiff could show the utterance of an untrue statement that tended to have the effect of deameaning that person's reputation or character. To see how this works, see Johnny Carson v. Here's Johnny Portable Toilets Inc., 698 F.2d 831 (6th Cir. 1983)[6]. Most law school tort classes do not get to privacy and defamation torts, but they could appear on most states' bar exams. Tom Waits successfully sued Fritos for using a singer with a similar voice as his and Crispin Glover sued Universal for putting make-up on Jeffrey Weissman to make him look exactly like him. Gx872op (talk) 16:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

There's probably a personality rights issue lurking here too. Neutrality^talk 09:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Steve Jobs great mistakes???

Recently, reading the German press (welt.de) I obviously came across an article about Steve Jobs, but about his great mistakes (!). What is the point of focusing on his mistakes when he has recently died? Is Steve Job not specially liked there or something? Wikiweek (talk) 13:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you certain the article was written AFTER he died? Even if it was, Steve Jobs is considered by many people to be a religious leader. As with any religious leader, there is a strong interest in making him human by showing his mistakes. -- kainaw™ 13:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

No, it looks like the article was written before (it requires some research), but published at the home page after his death, and due to his death. Wikiweek (talk) 13:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Normally, many news are written anticipating some event like a death, and normally published after it, but not always. There are a good number of cases when famous people were declared dead too soon. Quest09 (talk) 13:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I read the article (or maybe a similar one) which was a front-page link on a high traffic website like CNN. I did not at all see the article as disrespectful, but as inspirational: "Look, Steve Jobs made this list of mistakes, but he kept driving onward on his goals and dreams and in the end he triumphed." Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

He's been compared to Thomas Edison, and Edison made plenty of mistakes. Nobody's perfect. Apple made just one mistake - dumping Steve Jobs. They eventually fixed that one. And it remains to be seen whether Apple finds another visionary, or if it falls into the hands of beancounters and eventually gets swallowed up by another company. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Apple has made many mistakes over time. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Their more fundamental mistake is their whole "closed" approach to OS and hardware. Of course here by "mistake" I mean more "something I don't like" rather than "something not good for their stock price"; it's quite possible that it has been good for their stock price.

While we're at it, I don't like their user interface either. --Trovatore (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I admit that Bash is an acquired taste, but all the tcsh goodness is only one chsh away... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Things did get somewhat better with OS X. Now when I have to help my mom with her mac, at least I can get a terminal and use command-line tools. But I just don't like the graphical part of the interface. Sure, it's pretty, but I can never find the app I'm looking for, and when I do find it, I have to first bring it into focus on one part of the screen, and then use the menu commands in a completely different part. --Trovatore (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You are wrong. The Mac OS UI is far superior to the Windows UI. Not a matter of opinion, one of fact. --Viennese Waltz 19:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem with making a dogmatic statement such as your ""Not a matter of opinion, one of fact", VW, is that anyone with any sense reading it will grok that you just do not have a clue. It's simply self-defeating tosh. The "superiority" of a UI is always going to have reference to the context and circumstances of use and will for that reason always be a value judgement. So. Sorry about that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Who said anything about Windows? --Trovatore (talk) 19:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. All right, I'll rephrase for your benefit. You are still wrong; it is not hard to find an app in the Mac OS GUI. I don't know what you mean about different parts of the screen. --Viennese Waltz 19:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It is easy for you. That does not mean it is easy for anyone else. For me, if I want to surf the web, I type lynx, press enter. There it is. If I want to open my text editor, I type nan, press enter. There it is. If I want to check my email, I type pin, press tab, press enter. There it is. That is very easy to me. All that wiggling around with the mouse is hard and confusing and I don't like it one bit. Because of my work, I have to sit in front of a computer about 10 hours a day. I probably use a mouse about 5 minutes of the day. So, I really despise the Mac UI. If you can make it easy to press a single key and give me a command prompt, I'd be happy with it. -- kainaw™ 19:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You're not comparing like with like. You can't compare a GUI with a command line interface, nor can you denounce the Mac GUI for not being command line without simultaneously denouncing the Windows GUI. As hinted at above, what I'm interested in is comparing the Mac GUI with the Windows GUI. --Viennese Waltz 19:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

But, nobody mentioned Windows. A person who obviously uses the command prompt stated that he didn't like using the Mac GUI. You jumped in to denounce Windows with no apparent provocation. Now, you state that your sole reason to complain is to denounce Windows. In my opinion, that is no different than suddenly jumping in here and complaining that lima beans taste terrible so they should be removed from school lunches! It is off topic and unwarranted - even if it is entirely true. -- kainaw™ 19:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Trovatore's point was to compare Mac OS with command prompt, though. I hope he comes back to clarify his position, but the words "I don't like their user interface" (italics mine) sound pretty much like a criticism of the Mac's version of GUI, not of GUIs in general. As for "off topic", I like going off topic. --Viennese Waltz 19:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

VW, when someone says they don't like something because they find it hard to use, telling them they're wrong is the worst possible response. No matter how easy you may find it, the fact is they find it hard, or did at the time of writing. Saying they're wrong is just like telling them they're lying, or that the experience that are actually having is the wrong experience, and a whole part of their life is the wrong life. Explain to to your heart's content; definitely show them a better way of approaching it or of thinking about it - but please never deny another person's experience. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed while this behaviour isn't in anyway unique to those who prefer Macs, it does seem to be a common experience whenever anyone criticises Macs (or anything Apple) and is one of the things which gives Mac (and Apple product) users a bad reputation. Nil Einne (talk) 20:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It's too bad the Apple products, with all their push-button and mouse stuff, don't include an insurance policy to cover the arthritic fingers that stuff is going to eventually cause. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

(Because of the context, maybe I should clarify: I'm not remotely a fan of Macintosh. I am, however, a fan of Steve Jobs.) --Trovatore (talk) 18:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

We learn from our mistakes, especially our own.
Sleigh (talk) 23:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I want to thank my parents, especially my mother and my father.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 00:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kainaw that lima beans taste horrible and should be removed from school lunches. μηδείς (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that school lunches should taste better, but also, be healthier. Comments? Public awareness (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Was Steve Jobs responsible for apples at school lunches? --Jayron32 04:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Shuddup and eat your veggies!-- Obsidi♠n Soul 13:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Ethics regarding publicly traded corporations

Has anything serious (i.e. not activist ramblings) been written on the concept of a conflict of interest in publicly traded companies on the prioritization of shareholders and consumers? They're both "customers" in a broad sense. The impression I've gotten over the years is that shareholder interests are always placed above consumer interests, but is this an intentional choice taught in business schools? Again, I'm looking for what are, in essence WP:RS type documents - I'm not writing an article, but I don't want a debate, just useful resources. SDY (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Shareholders must be prioritized over consumers because every corporate board of directors (who appoints the CEO and thus controls the company) has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. This is a matter of law. They owe no such duty to consumers at all; so this isn't just an arbitrary choice to teach in business school. That said, I remember a quote which I haven't found yet from, I think, an IBM executive, summarizing: "Shareholder satisfaction and customer satisfaction are the twin goals of any manager." (While searching for the quote, I did find this paper that contrasted the two philosophies.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:53, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that paper is exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for. I'm not sure I agree with it 100%, but it raises the right kinds of questions and brings up the right kinds of ideas. SDY (talk) 06:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that while there may be no fiduciary duty to their consumers, many companies do have legal obligations to existing consumers (i.e. people who have purchased their products or services). Nil Einne (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Shareholders are not "customers" in any sense. Shareholders are the owners of the company. Wikiant (talk) 17:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If the consumers aren't happy, then they won't buy from the company, and ultimately that will make the shareholders unhappy too. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If your dog's not happy, it will chew up your furniture, and ultimately that will make you unhappy too. That doesn't make you a dog. Wikiant (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, your comment was indented under mine, so I assumed you were making a counterargument. Wikiant (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I am confused, is the dog supposed to be customers, the furniture the company and the human the shareholders? Googlemeister (talk) 19:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

See Corporate social responsibility Public awareness (talk) 18:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Also useful might be business ethics and stakeholder; both have references you could follow up. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Image identification

Can anybody make out the numbers of this image? It's not always from left to right since a similiar image has number 1 in the center. Also can anybody identified who the No. 2 figure.

With 20/20 vision, I cannot make out anything but three smugges in the first photo, and for the second photo it appears to me to go 1,1,3. Perhaps someone out there has a good photo englarging program? Public awareness (talk) 18:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I looked at the source image (linked to from the image page) and zoomed in, and the leftmost one sort of looks like a "1", but I cannot make out the other two. The source image is a pretty crappily compressed JPEG image; unfortunately they didn't choose to scan it at a higher resolution or use better JPEG compression or use a format like PNG that doesn't use lossy compression. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Going to the original source image, the numbers are unreadable. Has the OP looked for this image elsewhere on the internet? Maybe someone would have scanned it larger. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a version of your picture which appears to have the actual names, and not simply numbers, below them. Maybe your eyes are good enough to see which of those names looks like Keohoua femme du chef Kairoua. 20.137.18.53 (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

This slightly sharper version of the above makes it look like the one in the center is Keohoua, to me (the first letter of that one looks the same as the first letter of the one on the right, who I assume we're both assuming is Kamahamarou because of the word length/frequency). Also available from that website is the same image in an Ichabod Crane variation. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Country Where Speeding Ticket Fine Amount Depends on How Much You Make

I heard on NPR one time about a very rich business owner getting a speeding ticket somewhere in Europe where the law was such that the fine for speeding tickets was proportional to one's income, and that this guy's ticket was the monetary equivalent of almost $200,000 US. Who can find a source where I can read more about this? 20.137.18.53 (talk) 19:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Finland. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You would think that would make the cops more susceptible to instances where they might take a bribe. I mean in the US, you can often talk your way out for free, let alone if you offered $10,000 (not that anyone would since I can't imagine a pure speeding fine to exceed $1,000). Googlemeister (talk) 19:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Finland is also frequently found at the top of least-corrupted country lists, so that's not usually a problem either. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Even in the United States, offering a bribe to a cop is a very risky business. If your cop happens to be honest (and many if not most cops in the United States are), you could find yourself facing prosecution for the attempt at bribery. Marco polo (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Obviously it is not worth the risk for a couple hundred bucks, but if you were looking at $200,000 it would probably be a much higher return to risk ratio. Googlemeister (talk) 20:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Though if that's the scaled fine for speeding, I wonder what the scaled charge for bribery would be? ;-) --Mr.98 (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Presumably you talk in euphemisms, like asking the cop, "Can we take care of it here?" If he says Yes, then he's willing to take a bribe. If he says No, then you have to do it the normal way. Note that I'm talking hypothetically here. I still say the safer way is to have your driver do your driving for you, just in case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Oddly, the one time I got pulled over in Indiana, the cop showed me his credit card accepting machine in the cop car and wanted to know if I wanted to take care of it there. I probably looked at him funny for the use of this time honored phrase that Bugs quoted, and declined to take care of it there. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Switzerland too I was actually going to ask a question about these progressive fines myself today, funny, though my question was different so I will make my own section in a bit. Public awareness (talk) 20:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe they would get around it by having their chauffers do their speeding for them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

That wouldn't work on a Harley... Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:53, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You may be interested in the income related fine and suspended sentence of the man convicted for the killing of Kirsty MacColl in a boat accident. μηδείς (talk) 23:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe the fines for traffic violations in Germany depend on your income as well... the idea is to make the penalty for breaking the traffic laws hurt, so you don't do it again. If you earn a million Euros a year, a 200 Euro fine won't really hurt. A 100,000 Euro fine might. More than one, and you will definitely feel the pinch. Blueboar (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In Germany, it depends. If you commit a crime when driving (like drunk driving, and surpassing some speed threshold) you get maybe 90 days jail or 90 days salary (whatever you want). Obviously, most people will choose the monetary fine. Wikiweek (talk) 10:31, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I'm so late, but of course, we have an article on this. And it's not just for traffic violations, it's the basic system of determining the size of a fine in Finnish law.--Rallette (talk) 06:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a minimum fine? I mean if you are currently unemployed, you have no income, but you could be living off of savings for a while. I wouldn't expect they let you off for free. Googlemeister (talk) 13:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you replying to Wikiweek or Rallette? Your indenting is confusing. Anyway if it's the later, um did you read the article? It says "The minimum amount of a day-fine is 6 euros" and a bunch of other things like "For speeding in traffic, however, the fine is at least as high as the petty fine, i.e. €115" Nil Einne (talk) 14:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In nations without proportional fines, it's just another way of saying the rich are beyond the law. That is, they don't ever receive a significant fine, so can do as they like on the roads, without fear of consequences. On the other end, a poor person might not be able to pay the fine and increase in insurance, may lose their car as a result, and thus the job they can no longer get to, their home, and perhaps custody of their kids, as well. StuRat (talk) 16:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I am sure you can imagine the holes in that argument for yourself, StuRat. μηδείς (talk) 00:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, let's see:

1) Passing a progressive fine would be difficult, due to opposition from the rich, which wield disproportionate political power. Direct democracy might be needed to fix this, as it removes representatives who can be bought. Perhaps a "Proposition" might be the way to do an end-run around them, in the US.

2) This would encourage police to target the rich to get their money. The cure for this is to remove the longstanding conflict of interest whereby the police benefit (indirectly) from fines they collect. The fines could be donated to an out-of-state charity, instead. Since the police are sure to object to this loss of revenue, another "Proposition" is needed.

3) Establishing people's incomes would be difficult. Income tax forms could be used for most people, so they could send in a copy with their fine. StuRat (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

S. N. Haleole

S. N. Hale'ole was a Hawaiian historian that lived from 1819 to 1865. Does anybody know what his two initials stand for?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

A very thorough internet search has failed to turn up anything. Every reference to him only uses the S N initials. The only biography that I could read online is in the introduction to the 1918 translation of his "Laieikawai" which bluntly calls him plain "Haleole". I can only suggest that you try to get sight of a copy of "Na Kukui Pio 'Ole: The Inextinguishable Torches: Biographies of Three Early Native Hawaiian Scholars, Davida Malo, S.N. Hale'ole and S.M. Kamakau" by Malcolm Naca Chun. Alansplodge (talk) 22:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Business dealings-Ancient Rome

So, writing a book, and part of it is set in a company that runs trade ships in and out of Ostia, near Rome. Now, this business is mostly normal, typical, however, they are up to something else as well, something perhaps slightly illegal. One of my major characters happens to be an accountant there, and he comes across something whilst checking the accounts, something that seems very wrong. When he takes it to his boss, though, he is told it is none of his business, and just to leave it alone. And the plot follows on from there.

However, trouble is, I do not know precisely all the details of how such a company would function, what they would or would not be allowed to do, and so have no ideas at all what it is they could be doing that so upsets this accountant. So, I wondered if anyone here had any suggestions of illicit business activities this company could be operating. (If it makes any difference, the story is set in 250AD, in the time of Decius Augustus).

148.197.80.214 (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Modern companies form slowly as a new kind of institution between 1600 and 1850. Our page Roman commerce and this page and its bibliography ought to help. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If it's a shipping company, the obvious crime they could be committing is smuggling. I imagine a number of things were contraband, but one I know of is weapons. The Romans had superior weapons and depended on other armies not having them. If you could somehow skim off the top of some shipments of military equipment, you could make good money smuggling them to outside armies. APL (talk) 23:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

What you need to do is research, read a few books and articles on the subject. You might start here [7], [8] and the most promising looking I found Seaborne Commerce of Ancient Rome: Studies in Archaeology and History (American Academy in Rome: Memoirs). As a visual artist myself who sometimes does historical illustrations, it helps to immerse yourself in the subject a little, helps you to add little details that can bring life to a scene. Heiro 23:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

A few others Merchant vessels and maritime commerce in Roman times, The Maritime World of Ancient Rome Heiro 23:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The article on Decius should generate a few ideas -- smuggling Christians or Christian stuff is an obvious possibility. Looie496 (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that you need to do a fair bit of research. I think you will find that "companies" as such did not exist. There were certainly shipping enterprises, but they tended to be proprietorships, perhaps with a small number of wealthy investors participating at arm's length. Your accountant's boss would likely be the proprietor, the wealthy merchant who owned several ships, financed their construction or purchase and their voyages, and claimed the profits (though his investors might be entitled to a share of the profits). Marco polo (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Forced abortion

Fetal homicide laws in the United States

  "Homicide" or "murder".

  Other crime against fetus.

  Depends on age of fetus.

  Assaulting mother.

If you beat up a pregnant woman (<3 months), and she loses her baby, what is that legally? Murder? Or is it like any injure? Quest09 (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Depends on the jurisdiction. See feticide for a partial summary. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Unborn Victims of Violence Act, though this law is also putting pregnant women themselves in jail for murder if they do drugs, attempt suicide, or anything else which might affect the outcome of a pregnancy. [9] Also, Born alive rule. Public awareness (talk) 03:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Article 153, section 1 of the Penal Code (Dz.U.97.88.553) says that "who, by using violence against a pregnant woman and/or in another way without her consent terminates her pregnancy, or through violence, unlawful threat and/or deception leads a pregnant woman to terminate her pregnancy, is subject to a penalty of deprivation of freedom from 6 months to 8 years" (my translation). The prison term for an unqualified murder ranges from 8 years to life. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

October 7

What about the bottom 10%?

Will a Federal Discount Card providing up to a 50% off retail, utility and tax charges now be possible, acceptable or necessary or are there other known means to compensate those living at or below the poverty line who have suffered doubling and tripling of prices from deregulation and privatization of State and County services by Republican Governors and legislatures backed by corporate greed? --DeeperQA (talk) 01:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This Federal Discount Card is a thing of your own invention? There are, as a moment's thought would prove, many other ways in which such compensation could be given, were the legislature inclined to do so. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Its a logical method - much better than standing on a street corner, checking names and handing out $1,000 bills. While the State legislature or County Commission is controlled by corporate greed the American Congress is always ready, willing and able to lend the poor a helping hand. --DeeperQA (talk) 04:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• (PS.To be fair Verizon is giving temporary discounts of as much as $50 off its regular $90 FIOS charge for 15/5 Internet and voice to coax subscribers to move from analog POTS and DSL to digital FIOS by also stating that subscriber can always return to analog POTS and DSL within the 2 year discount period if they are dissatisfied with FIOS, even though Verizon's motive for the discount is to phaseout analog POTS and DSL entirely whereas the motive for Congress in issuing a Federal Dicount Card is to prevent riot.) --DeeperQA (talk) 05:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're in America. Food stamps and Medicaid are essentially a version of what you mention. Your proposal would almost certainly be constitutional, in some form, under the Taxing and Spending Clause. Feasibly possible to pass in this political climate? Not really. NW (Talk) 02:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes they are but perhaps more complimentary to a surtax, which the Congress is considering, in order to get the intended results versus trying only to generate a "we-are-doing-something" atmosphere. --DeeperQA (talk) 04:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Please don't use the Reference Desk as a WP:SOAPBOX to talk about your personal proposals. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree, DeeperQA, you are bringing up more and more similar questions daily, this is not a forum for discussion, it's suppose to be a place where you ask for references. Public awareness (talk) 06:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You right it is a place to ask for references. I have been commenting on articles in the news and forget sometimes that the articles here have their own talk pages. In that regard what articles here cover the 5% on millionaire proposal before Congress right now and the $5 debit card proposal by Bank of America? --DeeperQA (talk) 06:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Article talk pages are equally inappropriate for commentary unrelated to improving the article. Also see WP:NOTFORUM. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 06:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO the question might well change the perspective of the article just as pointing out that a $5 charge for a previously free debit card sounds like replacing Coke Classic with the New Coke or splitting up original Netflix service and charging 150% for both cost Netflix over 1 million subscribers. Do you prefer edit wars in articles or discussions to avoid them on the talk page? WP:There are no rules. --DeeperQA (talk) 07:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The point is that your feelings about whether it is a good idea or not, or your feelings about whether the change is meaningless or ineffective are irrelevant, this is not a forum. If you choose to edit articles to put in your own opinions you will most definitely be reverted. There may be a random essay called "Ignore all rules" but Wikipedia is built on a foundation of no original research, simply saying you want there to be original research and opinion doesn't mean it will ever be considered acceptable here. Discussions on talk pages should not be about your opinions either, they should be about references, and how to use those references in the article. Chris M. (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I will rephrase the question: Would the "pay in proportion to what you earn" as discussed here provide a superior option? --DeeperQA (talk) 07:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In the same sense that a progressive tax system is "fair". Googlemeister (talk) 14:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In the US poor people (and fraudsters with only cash income) commonly get food stamps, commodities, low cost housing or housing vouchers, "scholarships" allowing their children free or reduced cost YMCA memberships, and subsidized or free school lunches. There are real estate tax breaks in many localities for senior citizens. The OP's "50% off card" would presumably require a merchant or utility to sell his goods for half of the regular price (I would assume it would not apply to sale items). Food stamps, by contrast, can be used for sale or discount items. In many cases, this card would require the merchant or utility to sell below cost. If many of the customers of a given store used this card, the merchant or utility would certainly be forced out of business. Fraud via straw purchases would be rampant, if there was no limit on the amount of goods that could be purchased. If Granny is poor and gets the card, then Sonny could take Granny to the appliance store and get his new bigscreen TV for half price, with a straw purchase by Granny. If Granny gets a set amount of foodstamps each month, there is less possibility of fraud. Edison (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The discount card would operate more or less identical to food stamps but include other items besides food as the primary difference. A discount card is simply a way to assure immediate and desperate relief at the bottom for the poor just as creating jobs is seen as a simple way to assure immediate and desperate relief for the middle class that would entail perhaps a 5% tax on assets. --DeeperQA (talk) 02:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

DeeperQA: This is not a proper way to use this page. This is a reference desk, the purpose of which is to ask for help in finding sources, or perhaps for objective answers to relatively straightforward questions. This is not the venue to hold subjective debates about class war in America. Gabbe (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should not blame the OP for the question and debate but the members who provide their own opinions rather than citing references with supporting comments? --DeeperQA (talk) 02:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The earliest response to you wasn't particularly opinionated at all. They said your proposal would be constitutional but not really politically feasible. While there may not be a reference to the latter, your response: "Its a logical method - much better than standing on a street corner, checking names and handing out $1,000 bills. While the State legislature or County Commission is controlled by corporate greed the American Congress is always ready, willing and able to lend the poor a helping hand." is most certainly a statement of opinion, that your method is "better" and there is corporate greed. Your answers may not have been devoid of any opinion, but your responses to them were nothing but soapboxing. Chris M. (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe the OP is looking for From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Purchasing a small kasher handwritten Torah scroll for personal use

I'm quite frankly not sure who or where one would ask about this, so I'll ask in Ref Desk (always a good spot imo). Where could one purchase a small (say about 1-2 feet tall) hand-written kasher (written on parchment made from the skin of a kasher animal) torah scroll that they could use for personal use (say Simchat Torah and also display)? I know they sell little electrically copied ones, [10] but I want something more authentic. And, if someone happens to find out where, could they be so kind as to tell the cost? (I'll assume they're not cheap) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 05:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll tell you if you use the correct English term, "kosher", from now on. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Flinders does seem to be exhibiting pointy behaviour. Not done, old chap. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This appears to be one option [11] (rather pricey for new ones), but I wonder about ones produced in Israel. Can someone with better Hebrew skills than mine maybe locate such a service or two? It also looks like by small I meant 8 inches tall for the actual scroll (the other bits are taller :p) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 06:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing that their main market is institutional buyers, not individuals. Get ten guys together pooling their money and it's not so bad. Interestingly, they use the "o." SDY (talk) 06:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It appears that some of the smaller Torot [12] are advertised for both communities (by which I would guess they mean Jewish community centers and possibly other groups), as well as private homes, though it's too late to call about those (they also don't have the measurements sadly enough). I wonder if they sell such tiny ones in Israel that can be imported. I think many of the sites for those would probably be in Hebrew. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 06:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Da yau have samething against the letter "o"? Googlemeister (talk) 13:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It interferes with his sense of self-righteousness. --Jayron32 14:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a Userbox for the user pages of editors who insist on spelling non-Latin-alphabet words in a transliteration other than the commonly used one? Then other editors could take a quick look at someone's user page and understand why he was using odd spellings on talk pages. Like if someone pointedly asked question at the Reference Desk about "Peiping," "Bombay," or "Mahomet." Many words in English were originated in other languages with different alphabets, and many words which came from the precursors of modern English were once spelled differently (. This would save volunteers on Ref Desk from doing Google Book searches or other research with spellings which are not used in references which might contain the information the OP says he wants. Or the editor could just refrain from trolling in the form of using idiosyncratic spellings. Edison (talk) 15:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest that if SWMFP wants to use the original spelling he should also be using Hebrew characters? He should probably also be using Anglo-Saxon rather than the degraded Modern English.μηδείς (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I come back from Yom Kippur to find a series of personal attack and uncivil remarks which I should get out of the way. While I did not initially know that the spelling I use is also appears to be accepted by all major American English dictionaries as well as Encyclopedia Britannica as an alternative spelling of "Kosher"; [Merriam-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kasher], [The American Heritage Dictionary and Collins English Dictionary http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kasher] [Random House Dictionary and Encylopedia Britannica http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kasher] I am not going to do something childish demand or even ask for an apology for this unnecessary behaviour, but I will say that my respect for several editors whom I previously respected has been greatly diminished. I would also like to politely ask that if someone does not like the fact that I spell kosher as kasher, which, as you can see, is an accepted spelling (not knowing about something is no reason to get upset and uncivil about it) please ignore me when I use it (if you don't like something ignore it). I am not going to ask any further questions on these topics and will instead seek out a rebbe or another reference source. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 11 Tishrei 5772 04:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Consider yourself fortunate that Cuddly is currently on vacation, as they would likely have been all over you about this oddity. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

FWIW I agree you've been treated a little unfairly and was thinking that earlier but was reluctant to get involved before it was clear you cared. In the other thread, where you said it was the proper term, questioning/discussing that claim was IMO an acceptable diversion which you basically brought on yourself. However in this thread, as you didn't make the claim and instead simply chose to use your preferred term I don't see anything wrong with it. You've been accused of WP:Pointy behaviour but this seems to be an assumption of bad faith as I don't see any reason to believe your questions aren't real questions. (Of course if you did ask them just so you can use the term 'kasher' then you are somewhat guilty of point behaviour.) I also agree while people are free not to answer your question, coming here to say they won't answer it seems unnecessary although I can accept them saying it one time just to let you know. (I do wonder what sort of answers those who said they would answer can actually provide, I'm tempted to try it myself not for pointy reasons but just to see what sort of answers.) I don't personally believe it matters much whether the spelling appears in a dictionary either, I think it's fine people have their own preferred terms things. If you had taken it too far and used so many alternative terms that no one could understand what you were saying that would be a problem. But since you wikilinked the one term you did use an alternative for this wasn't an issue.

Anyway I didn't think I could help but actually did find a few things from a quick search. [13] discusses new ones and [14] discussed used ones. Used ones are suggested to be $5000-$12000. (I'm presuming all currencies are USD.) No price is suggested for new ones but the page for used ones suggests they perhaps not surprisingly are usually cheaper. There are a few listed in the used one pages but you have to ask about prices and no idea on when the page was updated (there's a 2009 copyright but it may not mean much either way). They are suggested to be for communities rather then inviduals but I would guess if you're Jewish and looking for the scroll for religious reasons they will have no problem selling to you. [15] also has new and used ones (look at the top for [16] and [17]). Again no prices but several used ones are listed although I have no idea how often the site is updated (a 2002-2003 copyright notice but again may not mean much). Next [18] which offers used and new ones. The cheapest new ones seem to be two different Ari style ones for $25000. There are 2 or 3 used ones, the cheapest one is either $12000 or $11000 (I'm not certain the 11k one is a scroll). However I should warn you most of the items were added in 2005 - 2007 (including the used ones) so it may be the site is quite outdated by now. Finally I found [19] (from [20]) which only seems to list new ones. The cheapest seems to be in Beis Yosef style for $22000. Again no idea on dates.

As for the kasher issue, the first site specifically mentions it. For the other sites, I didn't see anything but I would guess it's something they've considered so just ask if your concerned. Most of the sizes I saw were within your range (I saw ~12-22 inches).

BTW if I may make a suggestion, I'm not sure whether a tiny size is going to make a new scroll much cheaper. The big cost is likely to be the labour and provided we aren't talking about an extremely large one, I'm not sure how much easier it's going to be to scribe a small one (in fact it could even be more difficult). Other factors may make a bigger difference. Also a number of these, even if they are US sites seem to be using sofers in Israel. You may be able to save a bit by cutting out the 'go-between', so to speak, but I'm not sure whether it'll make a big difference. As I mentioned the labour is likely the big cost and it doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing you can expect cheaply. (Well actually the cheaper option may be to get some random likely non Jewish person in China or India or some other low wage economy to do it but I don't think they'd be considered an acceptable sofer.)

From these results I would suggest if you're willing and able to spend ~$25k for a new one it's probably worth making inquiries. Similarly if your willing to spend ~$10k for a used one. (Perhaps down to $5k but it seems less likely.) The sites may be outdated and even if not, perhaps the people involved would be willing to make inquiries or keep a lookout for something that fits what you want if you're a genuine potential and suitable buyer. I also saw it suggested you ask your rabbi for recommendations or assistance but I guess that already occured to you.

P.S. Also came across [21] but no idea if it's what you want and [22] which is but doesn't list anything. Still perhaps worth considering if you're making inquiries.

Edit: Was planning to suggest eBay but didn't actually do it. But just did a quick search for 'torah (scroll, sefer)', include description, located in any country/region and there are some things which may interest you. Some used ones which are listed as kasher for under $10k (~$7k). Ironically some of these seem to be from the torahscroll.com site above (which supports my view it's worth making inquiries if you're willing to spend that much). One (or more) is from some tiferes-judaica but seems different from the site you found. But that and some others come from Israel. Unfortunately a few of these are not listed as kasher (they specifically mention it), I don't quite understand why but I think it may be either because they haven't been sufficiently analysed or because they may contain errors, you should of course make inqueries if you're interested.

Which is another thing I was meaning to mention, if your Hebrew isn't that flash you'd likely need to find someone to help you make inquiries (if you are contacting someone who doesn't speak English well) to help ensure you know what you're getting. So getting someone here to find Hebrew sites may only be of limited use.

Also just to be clear I didn't intend my eBay search to be complete but a quick test. For example while looking thorough one sellers, I found in their listings a bunch of stuff I originally missed called 'Sefer Torah' in the title (but torah scroll is mentioned in the details). I've modified my search but you still want to think if there's any terms you may be missing, like looking at whats on sale and what's used to describe it and looking at the sellers and see if there's anything in their listings your missing in the search that may be used to describe the item instead. (As may also be obvious from the descriptions with stuff like 'currier', some of them don't have great English spelling so things like scrol, seffer and may be even sofer are worth considering.)

Also I don't know whether eBay is that significant for local/intra-Israel selling. If there's some other auction or similar small time seller site in Israel which is commonly used, look there too, and if you don't know see if you can find out. (E.g. in NZ TradeMe dominates the market, Malaysia has Lelong and a few other places, Japan has Yahoo auctions and of course Taobao in China.)

Hope this helps!

Nil Einne (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

dolls for sale

I'm interested in buying two Precious Moments, Inc. Native American vinyl dolls. Where can I find a legitimate place to do so?24.90.204.234 (talk) 05:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well they have a shop on their official website which is linked in that article you linked. [23] You can also buy them at American Greetings from what I know. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 05:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ebay has a few. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I checked their website. They don't have what I want. Ebay mainly has the porcelain versions. The American Greetings website only sells eCards and printables.24.90.204.234 (talk) 21:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried here? (which I found in a quick Google search, by the way)--TammyMoet (talk) 12:03, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

They don't have what I want. What I wanted was one sitting Indian girl and one sitting Indian boy. I remember seeing them somewhere, I don't remember off the top of my head. Where can I find them?24.90.204.234 (talk) 06:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you actually spoken to them? You may be able to commission them to find them for you.--TammyMoet (talk) 07:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

iPhone 4s online order taking rollout

Is the purpose of syncing the online order taking rollout of the iPhone to a specific time to test the capacity of the ICload to handle a massive amount of simultaneous transactions or events? --DeeperQA (talk) 05:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This is definitely a question for the Computing RefDesk. Also, I don't know anything about Apple products, so I can't actually answer your question. Sorry. :( Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tishrei 5772 05:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

No. It's to increase the excitement of being one of the first, even though in this case the user is being one of the first to order, rather than being one of the first to hold the device, or unbox it, or whatever. If you think about it a bit, taking these orders is very important for Apple financially; more so than any client's use of the servers. A test takes place to see if the server system fails, and obviously it would be awful for Apple if there were a big server failure on zero day. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It is exciting but also disappointing - Apple answers the phone and say it can understand a sentence so I ask: "How do I buy a new iPhone 4S?" I hear computer keyboard in the background and eventually Apple says its sorry that due to heavy call volume... call back later. --DeeperQA (talk) 06:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Fraternal lodge regalia? What's in this picture?

http://images.wikia.com/happymeal/images/f/fd/Fratlodge.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/happymeal/images/9/98/Fratlodge2.jpg

Can anyone identify the outfits on these fellows, as being from a particular type of fraternal lodge, or something similar? The photo is from what now is called the Greater Toronto Area in Ontario, Canada, but is currently unidentified. -- Zanimum (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not the Masons... my first thought was either the Grange, or the Orange Order. But the logo isn't right for either of those either. Granted, It is hard to make out the logo given the resolution of the photos... but it seems seem to be a red and white rose side by side (possibly with a thorn at the top)... so it could be some sort of Anglo-Scottish patriotic society. Blueboar (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. This is actually from an archives, where I work as a reprographics specialist one day a week. We're planning to post it on our Flickr, but we don't have an ID yet, so it's solely a picture of 200-300 men and boys in front of a barn, for the time being. Not remembering right now if this image was from one of the glass negatives, or from a print, but the people in the original... their heads are about 2 mm tall in the first image. Not sure how much more detail I'll be able to extract, if I do a new scan. (We're also a few miles away from the storage facility, which is under renovation, and we're understaffed, so it's not as easy as I'd like.) The photo was taken by Ernest Alfred Parsons, so it's possible that they're an Anglo-Scottish patriotic society, as you suggest. We have a bit of a biography about him, but nothing that relates to organizations he was in.

Anyone else want to take a shot at it, please? -- Zanimum (talk) 16:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

One more suggestion... contact The National Heritage Museum in Lexington Mass (the website is: [24] ... it has contact info)... they specialize in the history of Fraternal Orders (Masons, Odd Fellows, Elks, Knights of Columbus, Grange, etc) and the Fraternalism movement in general. They may recognize the regalia, or at least give you some additional suggestions for your own research. Blueboar (talk) 01:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

(US) Prohibition (against alcohol)

The recent Ken Burns series Prohibition inspired these questions:

1) He said "Prior to prohibition, female alcoholism was non-existent". I can't believe that. So, what was the actual rate before, during, and after Prohibition ?

2) The passing of the 18th Amendment is portrayed as a failure of representative democracy, with "representatives" voting for it even though they drank themselves (as did the majority of their constituents), out of fear of being targeted for "immorality" by dry forces. So, what percentage of the popular vote would have been for Prohibition ? Is it less than the 2/3 or 3/4 required to pass an Amendment ?

3) The enforcers seemed to feel free to not only destroy any seized alcoholic beverages, but also the barrels, trucks, etc., used to transport it. Was this legal ? StuRat (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Would they have even accurately have recorded rates of female alcoholism, before Prohibition? It seems like something families would keep hush-hush. -- Zanimum (talk) 16:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

On #2, from an article abstract:

Prevalence estimates of women alcoholics first appeared in the late nineteenth century; and between 1884 and 1912, data on some 24,200 institutionalized alcoholics produced male-female patient ratios ranging from 3:1 to 9:1. These estimates, however, suffered from some of the same difficulties inherent in modern prevalence figures: "Hidden alcoholism" and a lack of treatment facilities caused the data to under-report women, while patient sex ratios varied by socioeconomic status. These data problems are largely unresolved, and securing reliable prevalence information on women alcoholics remains a frustrating matter for both the social historian and the modern alcohol researcher.

So it was hardly "non-existent", given that you had a pretty strong presence of women in treatment centers, and that number is clearly a low-ball estimate. This article discusses a number of more qualitative factors involved as well. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, 98, but you seem to have confused your number 1 and number 2. StuRat (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding #3, if they seize the property the government then ends up with it. What are they going to do with it? Governments seizing property and then using it for themselves has an awkward connotation: it begs the question of whether the seizure took place because the government wanted the object, not because of a violation of the law. Destroying it makes it clear that the government's objective is enforcement, not theft. Out of curiosity, I know that drug busts still have similar consequences (i.e. if you're using a car to smuggle illicit drugs in NY, they take your car as well). Do they auction off the property and use the proceeds to pay for the defendant's legal expenses? SDY (talk) 22:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Here in the US, I believe they auction it off and keep the money (not personally, but it goes into the general fund), so this certainly is a conflict of interest, and one must wonder if a city low on funds and about to lay off cops might find that those cops tend to plant drugs on out-of-state vehicles (whose occupants presumably can't vote for a new mayor or police chief to clean up the corruption). But I believe there are specific drug forfeiture laws which apply, now. My question is whether such laws existed during Prohibition or if the cops just did as they pleased. StuRat (talk) 22:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Our article on this is Asset forfeiture. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of the Prohibition era there. StuRat (talk) 00:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as a "failure of democracy" is concerned, yes and no. As far as how many voters would have supported it, what is "it"? At least according to the documentary (one of Burns' better works), most Americans believed that what was being targeted -- "intoxicating liquors" -- referred to hard liquor; the assumption seemed to be that beer and wine would remain legal. So it's hard to tell what percentage of the population would have voted in favor of total prohibition (as opposed to partial prohibition), since the populace was never asked (and polling was very much in its infancy.) --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that I said "failure of representative democracy", not "failure of democracy" in general. That is, if the margin of people who supported total Prohibition was less than what would be needed to pass a Constitutional Amendment (if, in fact, those Amendments were passed based on popular vote), then direct democracy would presumably have avoided this foolish mistake. I'm trying to establish whether this is the case, or not. I can't believe that such a major change in American life passed without anyone having done a survey. StuRat (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As I said, opinion polling was in its infancy; how would such a survey have been done? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Door-to-door, by phone, by letter, etc. A simple count of "for" and "against" letters to a newspaper would give some indication. StuRat (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

How about the simple count of votes "for" and "against" "dry" political candidates? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 18:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't work because presumably the voters vote for and against candidates for many reasons, not just their stance on Prohibition. StuRat (talk) 01:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The US is not a direct democracy it is a constitutional republic, thus it does not matter what the people think on an issue, the elected officials can make any decision they wish on a matter. Public awareness (talk) 18:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant to my Q. StuRat (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the graphics shown in the first episode, the majority of Americans were already subject to "dry" laws by the time the amendment roared through. But look at the problems they were trying to fix, and it's easy to conclude that it seemed like a good idea at the time. It lasted 13 year or so and then was repealed. That strikes me as a triumph, not a failure, of representative democracy. As interesting and informative as Burns' films are, he sometimes latches on to an idea and sticks with it even when it's factually questionable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

They also said those "dry laws" often allowed for the purchase of liquor for home consumption, and only were aimed at closing saloons. That seems more reasonable to me. (Having a bar you drive to and from, and expecting that people driving from the bar will never be driving drunk, is absurd.) Also, prior to prohibition, it was often only a short drive to a wet town. I do agree with Ken Burns often "not letting facts get in the way of a good story", though. StuRat (talk) 01:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

There is just about nothing regarding the 1932 Democratic platform, which stood for the repeal of prohibition, and which was a stand that attracted a lot of "single issue voters". Here are the planks:

• We advocate the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment. To effect such repeal we demand that the Congress immediately propose a Constitutional Amendment to truly represent [sic] the conventions in the states called to act solely on that proposal; we urge the enactment of such measures by the several states as will actually promote temperance, effectively prevent the return of the saloon, and bring the liquor traffic into the open under complete supervision and control by the states.

• We demand that the Federal Government effectively exercise its power to enable the states to protect themselves against importation of intoxicating liquors in violation of their laws.

• Pending repeal, we favor immediate modification of the Volstead Act; to legalize the manufacture and sale of beer and other beverages of such alcoholic content as is permissible under the Constitution and to provide therefrom a proper and needed revenue. [www.presidency.ucsb.edu http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29595#ixzz1aImLSVrh Read more at the American Presidency Project]

μηδείς (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Strategic -Culture Fit in MNC (software of the mind) -articles

HI, I am a Research Scholar, searching out for the information on the Topic, "Software of the Mind"- Strategic-Culture Fit in Multinational Corporations of various countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheela Reddy (talk • contribs) 18:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like a topic, but more like a rather obscure title. If you can decipher that into an actual topic, then maybe we can help. The "Software of the mind" part sounds like it's talking about human intelligence, while "Strategic-Culture Fit in Multinational Corporations of various countries" sounds like maybe it's talking about companies which alter their products to fit different cultures. I don't see how the two are directly related, do you ? StuRat (talk) 21:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you are asking, but (if I have understood your question properly) you might like to look at the work of Geert Hofstede around culture in multinational corporations. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Marx and morality of wages and profit

In Capital I, p.61, Marx wrote that "[Adolf Wagner] foists me on the idea that "the surplus-value produced by the labourers alone improperly remains with the capitalist entrepeneurs"... In fact, I say the direct opposite: namely that at a certain point commodity production necessarily becomes 'capitalist' commodity production and that according to the law of value governing the latter, the "surplus-value" is necessarily the capitalist's and not the labourer's." (my emphasis)

What? I've only just begun to browse through his material, but this contradicts everything any modern marxist has ever said to me - if I'm reading it right, that is. What I read here (and it is echoed a few other places), if I am to translate it into what I easily understand, is that the entrepeneur, having facilitated for the efficient production of the commodity, properly owns some of the profit. That's the word he uses here, and it's as normative as they come: It is PROPER of the entrepeneur to retain profit. Now, Marx repeatedly says that -part- of the surplus-value is unpaid labour, and that this is immoral. What I want to know is, does he ever get any more specific with regards to how much profit is moral to keep?

In the end, it appears to me that Marx says profit, within reason for the labourer, is entirely alright prior to the social revolution, ie as long as there are capitalists. However, Eduard Bernstein never seems to meet him on this point in The Preconditions for Socialism - as I'm almost sure he would.

Could any of you possibly help shed some light on the issue? I thank you in advance! 129.241.165.147 (talk) 20:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We have an article on surplus value that talks about this and might help. Marx's problem was that the laborer was providing more than he was being paid for, and that the difference between costs to the employer and benefits to the employer (the difference being the "surplus value") was essentially theft. Since the laborer cannot make money without the employer, they are nominally stuck with any terms the employer gives them. This doesn't hold as much water as Marx might like since the employer is also dependent on the laborer, the employer has to pay something even if the laborer's only option is a take it or leave it. SDY (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Marx isn't a moralist—Marx is a social constructivist when it comes to moral theories: all society exists in the context of its material base. For Marx, within capitalism, capitalism justifies its moral order by being the natural order of culture in capitalism. The point Marx is making here, is that in Feudal societies, extracting profit from workers was viewed as usury or unjust, whereas in capitalism, such as extraction is viewed as moral. The morality is socially contingent. Marx never gets specific about how much surplus value it is moral to keep in capitalism, as Marx's Capital is a revolutionary manual (see Harry Cleaver's Reading Capital Politically for this). Every category Marx presents: wage labour, the length of the working day, surplus value, is contestable—why? Marx thinks that the whole edifice of capital can be dismantled. As Marx shows in the contest over the length of the working day, each of these categories is contingent upon social power. So with enough social power, the surplus value extracted can be reduced. A key example here is social democracy such as the Labour governments in Britain after the war. They had sufficient social power to tax surplus value production and divest it as social goods. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The error underlying Marx work on surplus value and profit is that value is objective. The labor theory of value is based on the assumption that value is objective because value, in Marx' world, is determined by the amount of labor that goes into production. If this were true, then an apple pie would be as valuable as (and command the same price as) a mud pie assuming the same amount of labor went into the production of each. Objective value also gives rise to the "markets as exploitation" argument since every transaction is a zero-sum game: if you pay $12 for something that has an objective value of $10, you lose and the seller wins. In fact, value is subjective. Suppose you value a car so much that you'd be willing to part with $20,000 to obtain the car, and a seller values the same car so much that he'd not be willing to part with it for less than $10,000. If the two of you agree on a sale price of $16,000, then you both win -- you get a car worth (to you) $20,000 for a price of $16,000, and the seller sells a car worth (to him) $10,000 for a price of $16,000. Wikiant (talk) 13:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest you actually read Marx. His labour theory of value has nothing in common with the absurdity you just presented. Marx stipulates that the labour power engaged in producing value is exerted labour power in an abstract social form performed at the socially average productivity rate. It is in Volume 1 and it is clearly presented. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

OP here. Thank you for your help, it is much appreciated. I chose to ignore what Wikiant provided -- it seemed entirely irrelevant.

I guess it is the wording that gets to a lot of people; the word "exploit" (same in German) is used so often that I can understand why readers could attribute a moral condemnation to what Marx wrote, when they really should not. I have another question which is tangentially related: As Bernstein wrote in Preconditions, capitalism looks to increase the length of the working day. Expanded infinitely, I reason, this amounts to slavery. However, Bernstein/Marx/others are pretty clear that the Lassallean understanding of the iron law of wages must be discarded -- as (I believe) you say above, there is a cultural factor here. My question then is, did Marx pursue the arguments about the working-day length to the point where they'd amount to slavery? 129.241.222.144 (talk) 12:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Marx chose "exploit" for political reasons—there's a link between the "exploitation of natural resources" which is the sense in which Marx describes the exploitation of workers, and the idea of "unfair exploitation". Marx's discussion on the production of value from the labour process is based on a model wherein nobody "cheats" each other, and everything occurs through formal legal consent. Workers are exploited to the extent that they don't control their own production. Given that workers—people reliant on wages for subsistence—are reliant on the employing class regardless of the length of the working day to survive, any length of working day means that they're in the condition of wage slavery. Arguments about the appropriate length of the working day have generally occurred when the amount of rest and leisure was insufficient for the reproduction of labour and the reproduction of labour power by workers: when they're too tired to work. This view sees the shortening of the working day and week as part of increasing total labour exertion, and as a response to "skill" increases required by increasing mechanisation. When you're too tired to operate the widget shifter, it breaks. Debates on the intensity of the worked day are also apt, when people worked 14 hour days, some worked very slack 14 hour days. EP Thompson's [Time Work Discipline and Industrial Capitalism] is useful here. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Dwindling nationalism?

So one can find many examples of sharp rises in nationalism throughout history (Québec in the 1960s, Scotland a bit later, the Basque country in the 1930s...) but I can't think of a clear example of fervent —separatist— nationalist sentiment shrinking or disappearing in modern history. Can anyone think of a strong separatist sentiment become marginal again after a few years, decades or maybe centuries? --Belchman (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The State of Jefferson almost got going for a while. Then WWII happened and people had other things to think about. It's not a separatist movement in the usual sense, but it is one example. SDY (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure how strong these all were, and their current level of interest, but perhaps, Riograndense Republic,Confederate States of America, Free Aceh Movement, Hawaiian sovereignty movement, and Sri Lankan Civil War. Belgium seems to be losing its nationalism, which was of course strong when it fought for its independence in the 1830s, Partition of Belgium. To go back a bit further in time, you may try looking to see in any of the Indian states which formed India had seperatist sentiments at the time, but are now gone, and same could go for Germany, Italy, France, and Spain, which all unified from multiple states. Public awareness (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, Republic of Yucatán & Boer Wars, and you may want to check out this list, List of former sovereign states. But when reading the list remember that many of the nations that did split from their mother nation were not always because of popular setiment, but could have been splits due to crown inheritence problems in monarch states or a few individuals trying to pull a Coup d'état on a province of a nation and trying to get independence. Public awareness (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

What about every nationalist movement you mentioned? Quebec, Scotland, and the Basque country are not separate states today, despite the rising nationalist periods you mentioned; nationalist sentiment has dwindled in each of those places now compared to various times in the past. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I think separatism can increase rapidly, but only slowly reduces. StuRat (talk) 00:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Khalistani separatism dwindled quite rapidly in the 1990s. --Soman (talk) 08:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Texas Nationalism saw a surge during the year before the most recent election for governor. I haven't heard much about it since then. This particular movement sees peaks and valleys every decade-and-a-half-or-so. Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 18:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Many regions in Europe have at times an active separatist movement: Bavaria in Germany, Andalusia in Spai, Bretagne in France, South Tirol in Italy. They come and go, sometimes after several decades. Quest09 (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Andalusia has never had anything remotely resembling a separatist movement. They do have a strong regional identity though —but their Spanish identity is equally strong. --Belchman (talk) 23:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps they were thinking of Basque seperatists. StuRat (talk) 01:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess you meant "separatists"... --Belchman (talk) 21:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Yep. Looks like that error is so common that Wikipedia has a redirect for it. StuRat (talk) 22:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

To an American, the southern United States are the obvious example. Lots of southerners still feel a strong sense of regional identity, but not many want to secede from the USA any more. Looie496 (talk) 23:10, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Also see Biafra and Katanga. Losing a civil war tends to do that. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The Bavaria Party once had a considerable turnout, but then lost most of its voters. But if we are talking about powerful separatist movements you truly should read the article Belgium. Flamarande (talk) 11:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I keep thinking the NO vote in the Australian republic referendum, 1999 could be seen as a case of dwindling nationalism. The Prime Minister of the day, John Howard, is an avowed monarchist, and he certainly has never had any interest in bringing on a republic. He responded to significant public demand for a change, but was smart enough to offer only one type of republic as an alternative, which he knew few would be prepared to accept. So the majority voted to keep a head of state who lives in another country. Since then, the public mood appears to be quite disinterested in the whole issue. They say its time will come again. They say that will happen whenever Queen Elizabeth dies. Why it should tied to that event, I have never been able to work out. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The European Union is a prime example of anti-nationalism. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Not really. On the contrary the institutions of EU work hard to foster (although rather unsuccessfully) a 'European identity', which itself would be a form of nationalism. --Soman (talk) 08:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

October 8

Gun fights between members of the Provisional IRA and loyalist paramilitaries

Did the republican and the loyalist paramilitaries ever fight a direct gun fight or something resembling a regular battle? --Belchman (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. See Battle_of_St_Matthew's. Quest09 (talk) 21:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Ulster Protestants and Scotland

Why do Protestants living in Northern Ireland fanatically self-identify as British while separatism in their mother country Scotland is so popular? --Belchman (talk) 20:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"fanatically" is a matter of opinion. They identify as British because they are indeed British and agree that this is the right status quo, with Northern Ireland being a part of the UK. Otherwise they will call themselves Irish.

Separatism might be popular or not depending on how violent you are. People sympathize more with non-violent separatists. Quest09 (talk) 21:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I used the wrong word. Probably "fiercely" would be more appropriate. I meant that they're apparently very proud of their British identity. --Belchman (talk) 23:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

It would be a mistake to think that Presbyterians in Ireland were always Unionists or supporters of the (Episcopalian) Protestant Ascendancy. The Society of United Irishmen article would be worth reading in this regard. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As an English Briton, it seems from this side of the water as though the Ulster Unionists cling to their British identity as a way of preventing themselves from being sidelined in a mainly Catholic and republican (ie anti-monarchist) island. To us, they seem to act in a very un-British way - marching through the streets under a forest of Union Jacks behind a fife and drum band is something that few English people would do. It is also astonishing to me that anyone calling themselves a Loyalist would consider throwing bricks at the Queen's police officers, but that has happened with depressing regularity during the Ulster "marching season". If there was an easy answer to the Irish conundrum, I expect it would have been found by now. Alansplodge (talk) 22:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As a descendant of Irish Catholic immigrants in Liverpool (because we colonized them back!) the problems in Ireland have always been of interest to me. Alan's comment of this behaviour being very 'un-British', though, is slightly incorrect, as I have memories of my 1970s childhood, when we still had the Orange marches here in Liverpool (which we still do very occasionally), and my grandfather (ex-seargent major in his adopted country's army, and who fought in El-Alamein and Italy) plowing into the marching men and women with a big stick, along with hundreds of others. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's really interesting. I knew that the Orange Order was a big thing in Glasgow, but it's completely alien to us here in the south. In the 1990s I was staying in a bed-and-breakfast in Fort William and was given a lecture by a Glaswegian on how he hoped Manchester United woulldn't win the FA Cup because apparently they're a Catholic team. I was astonished that any football club in England would have a religious affiliation or that anyone would care. It makes no sense. Alansplodge (talk) 08:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Everton FC and Liverpool FC were originally catholic and protestant, respectively. Everton supporters were (and mostly still are) Catholic, and Liverpool supporters were originally protestant. We have Catholic and Protestant schools here in Liverpool (and suburbs) - some of them right opposite each other, leading to massive brawls at home-time when we were kids, and in my early years I remember even having whole areas of suburbs being designated as 'proddie' (i.e. protestant) and were therefore no-go areas for us catholics. This was the 1970s, though. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's the first I've heard of any sectarian divide in football in Liverpool and I never detected any such issues when I lived in the city in the 1980s. Neither History of Liverpool F.C. nor History of Everton F.C. mention it either. Astronaut (talk) 14:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a reference for it: "During the 1950s and 1960s Everton were coined as the Catholic club mainly as a result of successful Irish players Tommy Eglington, Peter Farrell and Jimmy O'Neill as well as manager Johnny Carey. This in turn caused Liverpool to be thought of as Protestant club, not signing an Irish Catholic until Ronnie Whelan in 1979. However, it should be noted that this notional divide was never seen as a basis for supporting a certain side as is the case with Celtic and Rangers. In truth both teams have strong support from all denominations as well as many fans from Presbyterian North Wales and Catholic Ireland. Most importantly, the actual clubs themselves did not act to strengthen sectarian divides and in fact both clubs stem from a Methodist origin." Alansplodge (talk) 15:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest that the OP get a copy of Dervla Murphy's excellent book A PLace Apart which she wrote after cycling around Northern Ireland in 1976 and 1977, and exploring the mentality of the locals. Her keen insights into the loyalist mindset and his/her wish to maintain his British identity is worth reading. Remember that the religious issues in Northern Ireland stem from the Draconian Penal Laws enacted by the English following William III's victory at the Battle of the Boyne and the subtle theocracy of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Both Catholics and Protestants in Ulster are reared on their own particular myths. I went to a party held by loyalists in a prosperous area in south Belfast and one drunken woman began lamenting about "the days of the Empire". That says a lot regarding the loyalist mindset.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be a fair amount of confusion in these posts between "British" and "English". Although there may be some residual remnants of Protestant - Catholic sectarianism in Liverpool, elsewhere in England that simply no longer exists, so far as I'm aware. The overwhelming majority of English people have no interest in religion, and those that do have no interest in differentiation by denomination. But it certainly exists in Glasgow, and I suspect across wider areas of Scotland. As has been said, Northern Ireland was mainly colonised by Scots - who, if you look at a map, are just a few miles away - rather than by the English. Why, then, is the Ulster Protestant sentiment related to "Britain", rather than to Scotland? What would happen if Scotland became independent of England? Would Ulster Protestants then want to associate themselves with England rather than Scotland - and, if so, why? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There was a settlement from England, under the Earl Fitzwilliam, who took workers from his estates in West Yorkshire. At a guess, people descended from this settlement would wish to associate themselves with England - although if Yorkshire ever gained its independence, they might wish to go back to their real roots... --TammyMoet (talk) 10:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually there were plenty of English settlements in Ulster, not to mention Cromwell's men who were given land as a reward for their (God-guided) military prowess, and many Protestants from Dublin who moved North following partition (these were mainly English). And let us not overlook the many English soldiers who remained in Northern Ireland and married Ulster women. Another thing; if one takes a look at the bios of these loyalists one can see the many connections Northern Ireland Protestants have with England: Billy Wright (loyalist) (born in Wolverhampton of Northern Irish parents; Davy Fogel, a Londoner and former British soldier who settled in Belfast; Gusty Spence English dad; Michael Stone (loyalist), allegedly born in England. The Orange Order was founded by the Anglican Church, not Presbyterian, as a means of uniting all Protestanst in Ulster against the Catholics. Another point: the enthusiastic flag-waving and church-going Ulstermen of today would not have been out of place in pre-war England, and whilst religion is no longer important to the average English person it sure as hell was before. After all, the UK is one of the few nations whose anthem contains the word "God". Like Voltaire said, England is the nation of one sauce and a hundred religions.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You're quite right in what you say Jeanne; my point is that behaving in a way that was abandoned 70 years ago (or more) in the rest of the country is not easily defensible, especially when the rest of the country is paying the bills for them to do it. Apologies for the rant; I'll take a deep breath now... Alansplodge (talk) 15:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's why I suggested that the OP get a copy of Dervla Murphy's book as she brings up your sentiments in her book. Many British soldiers in fact had felt outraged at the way the loyalists were using the Union Jack. On the other hand, once the PIRA started killing British soldiers, to avoid having to fight two battling paramiltary groups, many British soldiers had no choice but to take the side of the loyalists (or to make it appear that way). I always had a lot of sympathy for the British soldiers caught in the Ulster muddle. They were always friendly and polite to me whenever I went up North.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I was in Manchester city centre on Saturday, three weeks ago, and was walking up Cross Street when I was rather surprised to come across a godawful racket which turned out to be an Orange Order march coming the other way with lots of pipes and drums. Most of the banners seemed to refer to lodges in Scotland, and a few from Liverpool and possibly one from Preston (though it may have been Prestonpans, depending on how the banner fell). In 53 years living in this country, it's the first time I've come across the Orange Order in the flesh. The local reaction seemed to be curiosity, combined with some annoyance that they were stopping people from crossing the street to Marks and Spencer for ten minutes on a Saturday afternoon! -- Arwel Parry (talk) 20:23, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It's wrong to say that Unionists oppose devolution or decentralisation. They don't want to be part of a united Ireland and prefer to remain in the UK, but are happy to have control over their own land. Many Ulster Unionists have always supported devolution, providing it was on their terms: from the 1920s until the imposition of direct rule in 1972, Northern Ireland was run by a devolved Unionist-led government, and around the time of the Good Friday Agreement the then-dominant Ulster Unionist Party was keen on devolution. The DUP, now the main Unionist party, has also come to see the advantages.

Similarly, while Scots want some control over their own country, most do not want independence. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

This article may be of interest: Vanguard Unionist Progressive Party.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

_Provisional_ Irish Republican Army

Why is the Provisional IRA called "Provisional"? The article on the PIRA says something about a "Provisional" Army Council but other than that, what's the reason? --Belchman (talk) 23:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The original IRA broke up in 1969; the group that followed the original leadership became the Official Irish Republican Army, while the other group had to "scrape together" a leadership council, so became the "Provisional" IRA. The "Official" and "Provisional" appellations were originally rejected by both groups, who both considered themselves the legitimate successors to the original Irish Republican Army (1922–1969), they both just called themselves the "IRA". Historians and media came to differentiate the groups between those that remained with the original leadership and ideology (The Officials) and those that formed from the new leadership (The Provisionals). You can get the sense of this history at all three articles. --Jayron32 00:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The "official" IRA from the 1920s ended up becoming pretty much a minor Trotskyite faction, without any real interest or capability in extralegal activities, so those who wanted a more actively confrontational grouping had to form their own organization. Nowadays we have the "Real IRA"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The main difference between the Officials and the Provisionals is that the former were overtly Marxist and sought a political solution whereas the Provos modus operandi was to conduct a military campaign with the aim of ending partition on the island of Ireland, British occupation in Northern Ireland, and to establish a 32-county socialist republic based on the 1916 proclamation.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The Officials never turned Trotskyists. Rather they landed quite close to the CPSU line. The differences between the Officials (Workers Party) and the CPI is a quite interesting tale, as CPI was more supportive of the Provos. --Soman (talk) 12:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

October 9

Do Canadians do anything?

Why is Canada mentioned so rarely in the American media? Canada is the world's 10th wealthiest country, one of America's neighbors, its biggest trading partner, and its biggest supplier of energy. It's the closest thing to an economic and financial powerhouse within several thousand kilometers, yet I very rarely hear any mention of Canada in American news. Why is this the case? --140.180.16.144 (talk) 00:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Because in Canada you don't have shootings like in Columbine, millions being evicted, bombing of third nations and an active pop culture industry. Honestly, to report something there must be something to report. Is there a Canadian Paris Hilton?. Add on the top of that that Americans really don't care much about foreign affairs. Wikiweek (talk) 00:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

"Is there a Canadian <that woman whose name I refuse ever to utter>?" - No other country would dare produce such a creature. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Celine Dion, Justin Bieber? --140.180.16.144 (talk) 06:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course. The Canadian versions of Dion and Bieber are Dion and Bieber themselves. I suspect Jack is talking about that American women who might be a distant in-law of one of the members of Monty Python, but maybe not. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Because the USA pretends that everything revolves around themselves. →Στc. 00:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Now, that comment reveals a nearsighted viewpoint. Or perhaps asigmatism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

On what basis is the OP making the claim that Canada is underrepresented in the American media? Could the answer be "it isn't being underrepresented" or "before we can answer your question, could you at least present some evidence before making outrageous and unproven statements?" Answering a question which is itself completely wrong doesn't make any sense. Before we answer the question, can we at least fact-check the premise? Have you stopped beating your wife? I'm not absolutely saying that the OP is incorrect, but we also cannot assume that they are without evidence... --Jayron32 00:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Mass media has no duty to equally represent news, their business is only to attract viewers which they sell to advertisers. Sooo, what gets coverage in the media is based on what gets viewers, see Missing white woman syndrome for a well known major distortion. Public awareness (talk) 01:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Could you please stop putting words into my mouth? I never claimed Canada was "underrepresented". In fact, I never claimed anything aside from easily-verifiable facts--that Canada is the world's tenth largest economy, that it's a U.S. neighbor, and so on. My question, for those who couldn't be bothered to read it, was "why is Canada mentioned so rarely in the American media?" That's my personal impression, and you're free to disagree with it. In addition, my not-entirely-serious title was "do Canadians do anything?" suggests that one reason is that Canada has minimal impact on the world, aka that it's NOT underrepresented.

Even if I was claiming that Canada is underrepresented--which I wasn't--I feel sorry for you for considering such a statement outrageous. If you're so insulted by a neutral and non-judgmental statement, why are you on Wikipedia in the first place, and how do you deal with edit wars? --140.180.16.144 (talk) 01:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Jayron32 meant anything personal by it, and it is very easy to connect "underrepresented" and "mentioned so rarely". Please try to keep your tone calm, even if someone was being a jerk, it's best to keep calm. Public awareness (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Disagree with your premise, and like Jayron I agree you have asked a complex question. Mentioned rarely? A Google News search for just the last 24 hours comes up with stories in the Washington Post, CNN, Bloomberg, Fox, USA Today, San Francisco Chronicle, Houston Chronicle, and hundreds of other smaller outlets; stories include the Keystone Pipeline, the Canadian dollar vs other world currencies, a falling satellite (German), labor data, a jobs boost (in Canada, not in the US), and other things. Plenty of coverage. Antandrus (talk) 01:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Americans were grateful for Canadian efforts to rescue American diplomats during the Iran hostage crisis.

The last actual news out of Canada was their helping to smuggle a bunch of our hostages out of Iran. The operation is known as Yo, Canada!. But plenty of things happen in the US that are news in Canada, like premier Danny Williams flying to the US for heart surgery [25] while his compatriots wait months and die before being allowed to use either of the two MRI's rationed per province under their free national healthcare system. But what does any of this have to do with the reference desk? μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If you claim an event that happened over 30 years ago (!) was the last actual news out of Canada, that doesn't say much for your interest in references. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 02:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You, know, Jack, it was your claim that I was "in hot water" in the last thread without specifying what it was that I was in hot water for that reminded me of my total lack of respect for you as a racist ni99er joke maker with no sense of irony or self awareness, and, in contrast to myself and others here, very little to say on topics, and all too much to say on personality. Now, if you want to post some news out of Canada that matters to you, feel free. I stand by my assertion that the resscue of the Iranian-held US hostages is the biggest story in the US regarding Canada for the last 35 years if not more. I provided links. What have you provided? But if you intend to continue with these WP:personal attacks I'll simply provide links to your racist nonsense, and maybe file an RfC, but otherwise ignore you. Stick to the topics. No one is impressed by your baseless opinions and personal insults. μηδείς (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Not that it's relevant to this thread or even this desk, but I specified exactly what the hot water was about. Quote from the Miscellaneous desk: "You got into hot water when you made the question only about the USA, though it never had any such territorial limitation. That argument was opposed, and you have not defended it. End of issue." But frankly, there's no point carrying on that conversation here, when you haven't done so there. So much for sticking to the topic.

You call me "a racist ni99er joke maker", and say you have no respect for me, yet accuse me of personal attacks and personal insults. Do you see something wrong here?

I responded to your claim that the Iran hostage thing was the "last" news out of Canada, clearly an absurd proposition. Now you're saying it's "the biggest" story in the past 35 years. That is one huge backtrack. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Plus it is absurd and not true. Operation Yellow Ribbon was a pretty big deal. 207.81.30.213 (talk) 16:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd be surprised to see that that made the front page anywhere, although there is no downplaying the goodlifullness of the assistance. But the rescue of the hostages was the top story for days. Not until the escape of Bambi Bembenek would Canada reappear so in the headlines. μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Because Canada is a peaceful, prosperous, democratic country that's always more or less friendly to the United States. Mexico is known for drug wars, assassinations and millions of illegal immigrants crossing into the U.S., so of course it's going to be in the news a lot. Europe has a debt crisis that could wreck the world economy. The Middle East is full of conflict and revolution. But Canada? Do you think it really makes a difference to American viewers who wins the election in Ontario? It's not as if it could lead to a war or communist takeover or something. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That is, basically, the correct answer. It is not like Nebraska or North Dakota or Alabama makes the news either. There was the Trial of Mark Steyn and the last time the Toronto Bluejays or the Montreal Canadiens made the playoffs. Or when John Candy or the naturalized US citizen and 9/11 collateral victim Peter Jennings died. But those events occurred in the US, eh? μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Canada is overrepresented in American news, mentioned more often than other similar places than one would expect given the general criteria that results in news coverage, probably because of its proximity, friendship, and similarity of language and culture. What are those criteria? In broad strokes, conflict. We write more about angst than we do about anything else. We will always write more about beheadings taking place than we will about some peaceful thing happening. Canada, as a relatively stable, peaceful, law abiding, war free place gets far more coverage than other similar conflict free places. Murder, death, violence, war, drugs is bigger news than peaceful topics.--108.54.26.7 (talk) 04:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Having lived most of my life in Buffalo and Seattle, I've gotten lots of news out of Canada. Currently an issue that comes up often in the Seattle area is controversy over various pipeline proposals for getting Alberta petroleum products to ports in BC—probably near Vancouver, which would increase tanker traffic in the shared waters of the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Also a coal export terminal proposed to be built near Bellingham, WA, is often compared to a similar BC coal terminal at Westshore Terminals, just barely north of the international border. The coal unit trains that haul coal to Westshore go via Portland, OR, and north through Olympia, Tacoma, Seattle, and Bellingham. I can't speak for US news in general, but regionally, Canadian news is certainly important for US regions near Canada--especially economic news that would effect transnational regions. Canadian political news doesn't tend to be paid as much attention. But even there, the fall of the Liberal party and various votes of no confidence and other crises have made some newsfall down here ("newsfall"?). Pfly (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Due to the fact that we haven't been at war with Canada since they were a British colony and when The Star-Spangled Banner was written, there's not a whole lot of reason for Canada to be in the news all the time. We think of them as harmless, or mostly harmless. There was a bit of a tiff over them harboring draft dodgers in the 1960s, but that was awhile back. One answer would be one time on Whose Line Is It Anyway? where host Drew Carey said that the points awarded to the performers on the show "mean nothing. They're like spy planes over Canada." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I happen to know from very reliable sources that Canadians with their small beady eyes are planning to invade America and warp the fragile little minds of the children!-- Obsidi♠n Soul 15:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting responses, everyone. It looks like my original impression that Canada isn't in the news very much is inaccurate, especially for regions near the border.

@Jayron: sorry if my previous post seemed like a personal attack. I was very surprised that anyone would consider a question like "why is Canada rarely in the news?" to be outrageous. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 06:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

No offense taken here. I didn't say the question was outrageous; I even allowed that the supposition may have actually been correct.(read my post again, and pay special attention to the words which say "I'm not absolutely saying that the OP is incorrect". What I meant by that was that I was not absolutely saying that you were incorrect). However, what you have not done is presented any studies or data which show that the number of Canadian stories in the newsmedia is less than one should expect given their size and proximity to the U.S. You have made the supposition in your question; it may be a true supposition or it may be a false supposition, but so far we have not yet established it one way or another. We cannot answer why a supposition is true if, in fact, it has not been shown to be true in the first place! That's all I am asking; it is not outrage that I express, just healthy skepticisim in the face of an utter lack of evidence to support the idea. Again, I have not said you were wrong, I have just said that you have not established that you are right. Without establishing that first, the rest of the discussion takes on no meaning; people could just as well be arguing to justify a "fact" which, it may turn out, isn't true to begin with. What would THAT mean? --Jayron32 23:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Study strategies for history

What are some helpful strategies for studying history at a pre-college level? What approach should the student take when studying a topic, e.g. a historic culture or historical period? What would be helpful for the student to pay attention to or keep in mind?

For test taking, are there general categories that history questions can be put into? If the answer is yes, what would be some strategies for dealing with the different types of questions?

Any help will be much appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.148.216 (talk) 00:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, there's memorization of facts, like dates, for which flash cards are good. For the more detailed understanding of the relationships between different historical forces, perhaps doing study questions is best. If the test is all multiple choice, true/false, matching and fill in the blank, then it's likely to be mostly about facts. If it's an essay, then it's more about historic forces (although you should sprinkle a few facts in, too). StuRat (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I knew my world history 1400-1900 and all world cities by age 16 by playing video games like Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun and Europa Universalis II. But thats just a personal thing and it doesn't teach specifics of actual battles, but if you asked me I could draw you a detailed map of Europe during any period during those centuries. Details come easier once you know the big picture I think, I mean, what's the point of knowing all about the Battle of Austerlitz if you don't know the map of Europe and who the great powers were at the time. And of course the main benefit is that it's passive learning that's enjoyable. Public awareness (talk) 01:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty of pre-college history is that it is really an area dominated by history buffs rather than historians. Hence the emphasis is on memorization and (frankly) trivia, rather than deep historical understanding, period awareness, or historical empathy. (I say this as an historian, one who hated history before college.)

My recommendations, as an historian and a teacher, follow:

1. Visualization helps a lot. Going through lists of vocabulary and dates doesn't work well for most people. (If it does for you, you probably wouldn't have asked.) When I need to learn about something, I try to find out what it looked like, because I find I can remember images a lot better than words. (This is not a new, or original, observation — see Art of memory.) So if I've got to memorize something about a person, I find out what he or she looked like. I can usually remember the visual later, and work backwards to other facts from there.

2. History has a form and a structure on which the facts hang. Focus on the "skeleton" of history first — big movements, big changes, big shifts. Learn the big picture first and primarily. Focus on the major movements. Once you know those, filling in the little details — the exact proclamations, battles, books, what have you — comes a lot easier. If you focus on the details (as the buffs would do it), you will miss the big picture. If you have lost the big picture, you will easily commit stupid gaffes like putting the wrong ideas in the wrong century and things of that nature. If you know the big picture, you can often work backwards to infer the probable details, as well. In any case, once you have a scaffold of a big picture, the little facts — the specific years and dates — are a lot easier to "hang" onto them. It saves you from memorizing what feels like a lot of unconnected things — find the connections first, then work backwards for the details.

3. Writing will teaching you more than reading. Reading is important! But writing is what makes us really learn things. If you spend time reading and understanding something and then re-writing it in your own words, or with your own conclusions, and really put thought into what you write (not just parroting a book), you will really understand it better. It forces you to synthesize rather than memorize. It keeps the information from just going in one ear and out the other. Neurologically it probably involves creating a new little network of memories connected to other parts of the brain, I don't know. But if I write something down, I generally know it for a huge amount of time, and deeply. If I just read it, I can forget it within a week.

I don't know if these will help with you, but they do reflect my own approach to this, and I've done this for a long time now. I'm not any better at memorizing things than the average person — probably worse. I was horrible with flash cards and high school history. People are often very impressed with how many facts and dates I remember now — but that's not because I sat down with the idea of memorizing them, it's because I've worked to set up a framework in my head that holds it all together, and keeps the really important things fresh and interesting to me. Whether this approach will work in a buff-like atmosphere, I don't know. I'd love to believe it would, but I don't know. It's a more worthwhile way to approach the study of history, though, in my opinion. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm a historian, but unlike Mr.98, I'm not (yet) a teacher. Mr.98's advice is excellent. I'd just like to point out that some high school syllabus (NSW HSC, for example) is focused on real history. Here Mr.98's point 2 is even more important, the story, theory, structure and process of history is the key. As an aside, the UK university system publishes some quite nice 100 page primers aimed at final year high school / first year university students. These combine narrative, major analyses, documents and questions together. If you can get your hand on text books that combine primary and secondary source analysis, with guided theoretical questions, and the narrative you'll have something worth (perhaps even exciting) enough to read. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

(and a good thing I'm choosing to answer this question, and not the one above it ... <looking for right emoticon :)>) I can only add to these excellent answers by saying that I'm not a historian, but as an ex history student, the main thing I regret was not focusing hard enough on primary sources, and the debates surrounding them. Somehow they seem to crystallise a lot of knowledge, and gather it around an intense focal point, especially as one goes back further in history, and source material generally becomes scarcer. Writing is indeed important, and if you are working on an essay, start drafting early (another regret of mine; do as I say, not as I do JJ). Another thing that has helped me to get more value is looking over past essays with a critical eye, as a wiser editor, with some emotional distance from the dubious generalisations I wrote in my youth. And don't be afraid to memorise a few core facts that keep popping up in your reading. And finally, at least read a chapter of Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall - you'll thank me later. Generally speaking, eloquent writing is worth something in this field, because it keeps you enthralled for page after page. It's been emotional (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Even at that level, noticing and briefly commenting on any bias in sources, will always be appreciated by examiners. --Dweller (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot, the Military trivia publisher "Osprey" publishes an "Essential Histories" series—I can only speak for the fact that their Korean War one was a decent primer. Fifelfoo (talk) 12:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Cult leader

How to become a famous and influential cult leader? --Tyour (talk) 05:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Like Joseph Stalin? →Στc. 05:23, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Or Jim Jones? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Like Lyndon LaRouche --Tyour (talk) 07:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The answer would seem to be to find a cause that you think some people will identify with, and then advertise - which should be easy on the internet. It also helps to have unshakeable confidence that you're in the right. The question might be, how large a cult do you want? If you're in the USA, running for some political office might work, especially if your views stand out from the crowd somehow. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Although perhaps not exactly the thing you are looking for, I find it close enough. Timothy Leary wrote a small book called How to start your own religion. --Saddhiyama (talk) 07:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If someone is influential, does that disqualify them from being "cult" leaders? For example, Jones and LaRouche were famous, or maybe "infamous" would be the better term, but how influential were they, beyond selling newspapers? And if Leary was significantly influential, does it really count as a "cult"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Be a very good liar. So good, you'll end up believing yourself.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 11:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Another way to put it is, learn to be a salesman. A salesman has to not only lie, but to believe the lie. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

See our article, Cult, and also Charismatic authority, which our Cult article invokes religiously. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You need three things: Charisma, heavies, and lots of money, honey.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Этика

Чем отличается этика от нравственности и морали? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.186.94.59 (talk) 06:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

According to Google Translate, the section title is "Ethics" and the question is "What distinguishes ethics from morality?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:59, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess one might link directly to ru:Этика and ru:Мораль to help answer this homework question . --ColinFine (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

188.186.94.59: Смотрите также ru:Мораль#Мораль и нравственность и ru:Нравственность#Нравственность и мораль. --Theurgist (talk) 12:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The first word is Greek and the second is Latin. There is no consensus distinction, and I am not aware of any major thinker who opposes the terms. It does seem that in English morality, the less learned word, is more commonly used in conjunction with religious viewpoints and ethics, the less common word among laymen, is more used in technical philosophy. But this is a matter of usage, not a fundamental distinction in meaning. μηδείς (talk) 17:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

For those who can't readily understand the original question in Russian, here is what the person asks as literally as possible: "By what does этика differ from нравственность and мораль?" Three terms are included in the poster's question, not just two. --Theurgist (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The third term translates to Sittlichkeit which is an obscure concept of Hegel's apparently. (I had noticed the third word but assumed it was being used as a synonym for morals. The comparison of two such broad concepts with such an esoteric one seems to imply some unstated context.) I have only read Hegel third hand so cannot comment. μηδείς (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is the Stanford Encyclopedia's article on Hegel which tries to explain the concept. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hegel/ μηδείς (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The saying is something along the lines of the ethical man knowing the difference between right and wrong and the moral man doing what is right. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Gov. Brown

Is there some website where I can see a listing of all the California State Legislature bills that Governor Jerry Brown has vetoed or signed into law (for the batch from the most recent session, that is)? Today (Oct. 9) is the last day for the governor to sign some 600 bills sent to him by the Legislature during that session: Is there some place where I can see a listing of all of these and the action taken upon each? Neutrality^talk 09:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The California State Legislature Information page allows you to search for bills from as far back as 1993. It does not provide a neat listing of all of the bills that Brown has signed or vetoed, but you can see which bills have had status changes each day of the month. Looking at today's Assembly updates, for instance, shows which he has signed and vetoed today. It's easy to see which he has vetoed, because there is a link to the veto message with each. For those that he hasn't vetoed, you will need to view the bill history to see if it has been approved. Unfortunately, the website does not provide links to each day's activities as far as I can find; you will have to manually edit the URL to change the date. There are also different updates for both the Assembly and the Senate, so you would have to look through both. Another option is to use their search function and perform a keyword search on "Vetoed by Governor" and "Approved by the Governor", which are the two lines added into the text of the bills after the Governor takes action. I've tested this method, however, and I've found that the text of the bills are not updated on a daily basis, so the information is not as complete.

The Legislature is beta testing a new site which will hopefully have improved functionality, but as of right now, there doesn't seem to be a place to find a neat, concise list like you would like.

I hope this helps answer your question. Below are citations to the websites mentioned. This question was answered by a library-in-training as part of the monthly Slam the Boards! event. 64.189.89.246 (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

"Official California Legislative Information". Retrieved October 9, 2011.

"Beta Site for California Legislative Information". Retrieved October 9, 2011.

Thank you. It's rather unfortunate that the Legislature (or the Governor's Office) doesn't compile this info in neater form! Neutrality^talk 00:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Why would most non-religious people tend to be liberals on non-social issues and why would religious people tend to be conservatives on non-social issues?

Most of the atheists I’ve heard or come across with who are into American politics said that they were either Democrats or just liberals. Some of the atheists I know used to be Christians & while they were Christians, they were not only social conservatives, but fiscal & national defense conservatives too. I decided to do some research to see what surveys, polls, & studies have to say about this. Sure enough, the surveys, polls, & studies confirm that if you’re either an atheist or just believe in evolution; most likely you would likely be a Democrat &/or a liberal. [26] [27] [28] [29] I noticed as well, based some of the links that follows, that it looks like most in scientific community are definitely not conservatives nor Republicans. [30] [31] [32] [33] [34]

I can see why many secular people are opened about the following issues that Democrats &/or liberals support or are at least opened to do so & which Christian conservatives &/or Republicans don’t support nor are opened to do so: Abortion, gay marriage, pre-marital sex, man-made global warming, big bang, extraterrestrial life, separation of church & state, etc. What I don’t understand is this: It also seems that those people who have other politically left-leaning views such as: those who support taxing the rich, social security, for more government control over small businesses, giving amnesty to illegal aliens in the U.S, more gun control; & those who are against the death penalty, the Iraq &/or Afghanistan wars, the Tea Party, the phrase “Drill baby drill,” etc. are also more likely to either be atheists or believe in evolution, & those who are against these things are likely not to be. Why does all this seem to be the case? What are the secular or religious connections to views on fiscal, national defense issues, & the death penalty? Also, since there’s a decline in Christian fundamentalism & Christianity in general in the U.S; does that mean that there’s a decline of Republicans & Republican influence in the U.S too? Willminator (talk) 13:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Because Jesus taught us that forgiveness, sharing, acceptance, unconditional kindness and love are all evil sinful things. Oh wait... -- Obsidi♠n Soul 14:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec)You are starting with a major flawed assumption. Please do not equate religiousness with fundamentalism. Not all religious Christians are fundamentalists, nor are they all conservative in their politics. Indeed, there are many extremely religious Christians who are liberal in their politics precisely because their interpretation of Christ's message guides them to support the liberal viewpoint. Blueboar (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It's the other way around (to the original assertion) in the UK. Most famously in 1983, the Church of England published a report called Faith in the City which "created a large amount of controversy when it was published, as one of its conclusions was that much of the blame for growing spiritual and economic poverty in British inner cities was due to Thatcherite policies." Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You have lumped together all the stereotypical Republican Party platform stances, and lumped together all the stereotypical Democratic Party platform stances. You have not provided any references that show that your assertions about religion and these stances are true. Do you have any references? They might point the way to an answer (if your assertions are indeed true and not just assumptions). Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Even so, religionists in general emphasize living the straight-and-narrow in hopes of a better hereafter; whereas non-religionists don't believe in a hereafter, so they tend to emphasize the here-and-now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

, Bugs. Atheists have children, too, and if our original poster is correct, it's the howling atheists who are more inclined to attempt to take care of the Earth, which is not a here-and-now proposition. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The belief or non-belief in an afterlife is central to the answer to the question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there some relevant Reference Desk question here? If this is just to be yet another debate based on stereotypes it needs to be closed. μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Your suspicion may well be correct. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The question is indeed based on "stereotypes", but the OP is asking for an explanation of those stereotypes, which can be answered completely objectively. Additionally, a stereotype is not necessarily invalid. I've found the OP's impressions to be very accurate for US politics, even if, as Alansplodge said, it doesn't necessarily hold for other countries. Even if the OP's stereotype is invalid, suppressing discussion of its origins and/or validity is hardly the best way to enlighten the OP or other readers of the reference desks.

Finally, I'm also interested in the OP's question, and would appreciate further responses. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 20:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

To equate "religious" with "conservative" is simply inaccurate (not to mention being quite offensive to many religious liberals)... even in the US. Now, if you narrow the question to "why do many Christian fundamentalists hold conservative political views?" we might be able to answer the question. Blueboar (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoever is in U.S. politics these days, where invective has replaced debate, is hardly indicative of much, unfortunately. The common thread I do see is that people like people like themselves—and so, extremists attract extremists, based mainly on self-appointed high-ground against an immoral enemy. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally I feel this thread should have been left closed but I would note that whatever misconceptions and inaccuracies the OP has expressed, they never seemed to suggest all religious people in the US hold conservative views etc. Rather they used a lot of WP:weasel words like many, most, most likely, more likely, tend to etc which ultimately suggest they're saying a majority of religious people have conservative views etc. I'm not of course saying that these statements are any more accurate. (And there's still the problem of lumping all the views together.) Nil Einne (talk) 21:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don’t feel like explaining again what I was intending to ask as that will be too energy-draining and time consuming for me. You know what I mean? However, I will say a few things: My intention was not to stereotype anyone. Now, read the whole entire articles (sources): 1, 2, 3, and 4. After that, read the these whole entire articles (sources): 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now go back and carefully reread my question above and hopefully, you’ll understand at least the idea of what I’m trying to ask. I apologize if my question has ended up being too controversial or confusing. Regards to all of you. Willminator (talk) 23:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a brilliant and well-researched question, tidily expressed and sincerely asked. Please continue to do things like this, and ignore some of the bizarre comments that spring up. In advance of finding the time to look at your references (which I will certainly bookmark at the very least) I can only say that I will take your point on trust, and answer on hypothetical grounds, that is, assuming the facts stated are true. You are asking a very deep "why" question, and it will involve some speculation. Since you have received a reasonable and intelligent reply to the effect that it is quite the reverse in the UK, you can certainly take it that the experience is not universal, and therefore not the result of large-scale political forces tending towards conservatism or liberalism. I suspect it is more about division and the self-interested nature of politics in practice, that is, in most countries there would seem to be two major political parties, aligned with two major divisions, roughly, status quo vs. anti-status quo. When a new issue arises, it can either be shuffled off to the side if it doesn't fit these debates (concerns about tv and video game violence don't seem to follow political divisions) or it can be incorporated somehow. The manner of incorporation depends on circumstances, as far as I can tell, so whether your party likes freedom of speech or not will be unpredictable from a theoretical standpoint. But there is a tendency to the bipartite division, apparently because there just isn't room in people's heads for confusing alignments along multiple axes. The divisions occur because people in debates tend to force them - in Iran, the moment someone talks about freedom, the government simply says that they are just being American, and they want to be like the West, and the people can't talk about it anymore. By using existing divisions, and recasting a debate along those lines, they can force a new and sensible discussion into the pattern caused by existing hatred.

I cannot provide a researched answer at this time, but the very interesting observation about the UK says that we have a way of using examples to show the manner of division in politics and how it occurs (I have given a less valid, but reasonable, example about Iran to advance the discussion also). I hope we can do better than the chaos above. It's been emotional (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

For the record, to respond to one point in the above odd response, TV and video game violence does follow partisan lines unfortunately in the US; the Democratic Party is the one that is typically concerned, while the Republican Party doesn't care nearly as much, because of the "less government in all things" mantra. Change the subject to "sex on TV" and "sex in video games" and it flips back the other way. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

In the US, at least, most people who call themselves "Christians" really aren't, in that they don't believe in the teachings of Christ, which include pacifism, caring for the poor, avoiding the accumulation of wealth, etc. What they actually believe is the Old Testament, which is more about killing and/or enslaving your enemies and taking all their stuff. In that context "Christians" being for the rich keeping all their money makes more sense. StuRat (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not logical to claim that believing in the Old Testament is contrary to Christianity. Jesus not only believed in the Old Testament, his teachings claimed it as the supreme authority for all religious matters. Of course, his other teachings are not necessarily consistent with (his) Scripture, just like how Christians today don't necessarily behave in accordance to the Bible, and just like how the Bible itself is not internally consistent. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 04:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

140, if you are interested in the original question, I suggest you leave off-topic remarks to themselves. I am trying to answer the question constructively, but I cannot do so on my own. Comet Tuttle has made a valid and interesting point, but I have come across several references that disagree quite strongly, though none of them would be reliable sources. [35] mentions a Republican campaigner against video game violence, [36] refers (at the bottom of the article) to several Republican initiatives (although it also acknowledges the Republican aversion to government intervention at the same time), and this same article talks about a Republican campaigner who is against regulation, but seems to suggest he is fine with sex. In the context of the OP's question, it only means there is a case where something doesn't follow party lines, seemingly (unless Comet Tuttle can give a reference, which I would be keen to read). It is a rare case of an issue that is publicly significant, but not politically fixed.

Now, having read the OP's sources (and having checked the archives to make sure they were attached with the original question), I can say they fully back up the assertions made, and that anyone can read where he says in his second paragraph that it seems those who have other politically left-leaning views (etc.) are more likely to be atheists. The list of views is not deeply critical to the question; we know that Republicans/Democrats tend to be aligned on many issues (unless someone wishes to prove to the contrary), and we can see some kind of link between those views and the ideologies of those parties. The question was about atheism in this context. I can only say that in Australia, instead of being one way or the other, it is something the major parties avoid discussing publicly. I even once saw Julie Bishop on Q&A go out of her way to say nothing when the question was put to her. I think it has nothing to do with left and right per se, so someone in the US might want to show what the particular considerations are. It's been emotional (talk) 04:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

StuRat made a comment, which I criticized as inaccurate. I fail to see how my remark was any more off-topic than StuRat's. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 15:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

US Constitutional Convention

Which Constitution amendments have been proposed by Lawrence Lessig? 208.54.38.162 (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

In the time it took you to type that out, you could have Google "lawrence lessig constitutional amendment" and hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button and found this article by Lessig which explains his position. If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask on here, but do a little Googling yourself, first. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:07, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That links to http://action.change-congress.org/page/s/amendpetition which appears to be dead. Where is the text of the amendment? Which ones at http://convention.idea.informer.com/ are Lessig's? 64.134.157.164 (talk) 19:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Found it!

"Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to restrict the power to limit, though not to ban, campaign expenditures of non-citizens of the United States during the last 60 days before an election."[37]

Can someone explain how that would get corporate money out of politics? 64.134.157.164 (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think if it would get it out. Did someone suggest it would? The reason some want it is related to the decision at Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, there is extensive discussion in the article on the concerns relating to the ruling. BTW this appears to be the original full text [38] Nil Einne (talk) 21:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It is aimed at corporations and PACs, which are both non-citizens. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Why 60 days? Why not forever? 208.54.38.211 (talk) 03:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well perhaps the first amendment ought to still mean something, irregardless of how people are assembled. In any case, this isn't the place to have a forum about stuff. Shadowjams (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

L'Hemingway

I was having a discussion with a coworker last night who is also a student of foreign language. I posited that English is a terrible language. She related what her linguistics professor once said about Hemingway. In one Hemingway's shorter works is beautiful and fulfilling, while being a quick read. When translated into French, however, the work is at least twice as thick and very boring. Does this story strike a chord with anyone? Thanks Wikipedians! Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 19:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's simply because translations are necessarily worse than the original —technically that doesn't have to be true, but in my experience even great translations fail to convey the original meaning with 100% fidelity. --Belchman (talk) 20:59, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure one could easily find another great work of French literature that becomes unwieldy and unimpressive when translated into English. —Akrabbim^talk 21:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

For more pondering than most people would ever want or need on the topic of translation, I recommend Le Ton beau de Marot by Douglas Hofstadter. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There's an interesting article [39] that finds that translations (at least English-Portugeuse ones) are indeed longer than the source text, on average. Somewhat less related, here's an interesting article about the formatting issues with translations. We also have a very detailed translation article, though I'm not seeing much discussion about the length of text changing. Buddy431 (talk) 21:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the quality of the work, but in general French is a wordier language than English. I'm not surprised that translating a work from English to French would make it considerably longer; I would expect (though cannot prove), that a work translated the other way would be considerably shorter. --Jayron32 23:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I think by "twice as thick", the original poster didn't mean the length, but meant that the short stories are difficult to struggle through because of their boring prose. I've read Hemingway in Spanish but not in French so can't express an opinion on the original question. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe not literally twice as thick but it is almost surely longer in the French translation. I've seen many programming courses advise that you leave plenty of extra space in your original English if you're expecting your program to be translated into French or Spanish, and my personal experience seems to confirm this. I don't know if it's entirely because of the nature of the language or because translations tend to be wordier as they struggle to catch the original meaning. --Belchman (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I managed to read the Silmarillion in French translation in the summer between high school and college. (I bough that and Dune in German in Switzerland on my senior trip.) The effect was entirely different, much more aetherial, less earthy. Dwarves are not at all the same when you call them nains. Especially since that sounds like "nah" (meaning the opposite of yeah) in English. I have found many French and Russian novels ruined (by which I mean unreadble past 20 pages) by stilted or affected translation. I was unable to read Hugo's '93 (Quatrevignt-treize) until I got the edition with Ayn Rand's introduction. Not having read the French I can't speak for the fidelity, but that translation was a transparent delight. There was no sense of it being forced or false. Back to the Silmarillion, that book is generally considered difficult in English. I think a native French speaker might actually have found the French less difficult than the English for a native speaker, given that Tolkien's archaicisms just come accross as the normal French conventions in literature like the use of the passé simple. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think I read about this in Le Ton beau de Marot, but the English translation of La Disparition is in some ways more impressive than the original. Pfly (talk) 03:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" is significantly longer (and more difficult to read) in English than in French. Mostly this is because concepts that just make sense to French readers need to be explained to English readers. This is typical of any translation: sophisticated works that use the full power of a given language will run into troubles in different languages where the linguistic powers are different. As I understand it, English is a particularly good technical language (the syntax in English, like German, is primed for constructing fine details in noun phrases), while romance languages like French are better at conveying nuances of emotion. Other languages have their own strengths and weaknesses: Chinese, for instance, is a lousy language for expressing conditionality or time (it has a weak tense system that relies on the context of the discussion), but is one of the more efficient languages in terms of conventional conversation. If you're dealing with art-literature specifically, any language except the original is terrible: art-literature relies on so much more than just the words and grammar of the language that translating it is major problem. --Ludwigs2 03:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The primary issue is having someone who (a) has superior command of both languages to understand and communicate all the nuances and (b) has the creative talent to be an author in either language. There are very few who meet that criteria in any pairing of languages. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

In general I observe that many foreign translations are wordier or just plain longer than the English. However, I think it depends on the work and how the translation has been done. I have a (rather old) translation of Dante's Inferno which has the original Italian on the left and the English translation on the right. The translator has retained (for the most part) the meter of the original and therefore both languages have the same length. I have also read an English translation of Faiza Guene's Kiffe Kiffe Demain in which the translator has translated some of the French verlan (street slang) into similar English street slang terms; the English translation also has slightly fewer pages according to Amazon, though I don't know if that is due to there being fewer words or just the translator introduction. Astronaut (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

October 10

Was Hitler insane?

Was Adolf Hitler really insane? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 01:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

This might serve as a starting point for a discussion relevant to the posed question. Bus stop (talk) 02:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

He committed suicide soon after getting married. Sounds perfectly sane to me. :-) StuRat (talk) 02:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Please see megalomania. Many national leaders "suffer" from this. 208.54.38.211 (talk) 03:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If you mean clinical insanity there is no evidence of that. Hitler was (by all accounts) mentally competent and capable of functioning effectively within conventional social contexts. Hitler was, arguably, deluded, in that he held beliefs which would not have held up to empirical scrutiny, but in that regard is not necessarily different than any other person in the world. In fact - though it is a social convention to cast people we dislike as insane - there is no substantive evidence that Hitler was psychologically or emotionally abnormal in any significant way.

Sorry. --Ludwigs2 03:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Since when are clinical sociopaths incompetent? Why do you believe a mass murderer was "capable of functioning effectively"? 69.171.160.57 (talk) 17:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The quality of Hypocrisy is a survival technique used by many. The failure to use it or the objection of its use may be considered insane, especially by those who rely upon hypocrisy for survival. According to all accounts it appears that Hitler was not a hypocrite (possibly with rare exception) since he reiterated in private what he said in public and vice versa. --DeeperQA (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Germans I know tend to describe Hitler as "crazy" and that he brought "disaster" upon Germany. That's a way of scapegoating Hitler. If he was crazy, then he had a large equally-crazy following. He was not insane, he was merely evil. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, being responsible for the deaths of so many people without it seeming to bother him would suggest sociopathic behavior, but I am not a psychiatrist. Googlemeister (talk) 13:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The combination of ideology and distance has let many a world leader sleep peacefully despite oceans of blood on their hands. Ideology justifies the most horrific of crimes. Distance allows one to disassociate with the realities of such bloodshed. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Has there been a study looking into whether people with sociopathic tendencies might self select for ideological world leaders? Googlemeister (talk) 15:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

This kind of questions are a consequence of reading history though the outdated Great Man theory. The Holocaust and the military expantionism of Germany are the result of several social, political and economic causes, not just the will of a single man. Hitler, as any other leader in the world, does not act "on his own", but as the head of a number of factions that rquired the emergence of a leader like him.

Have in mind that I'm not defending Hitler, I'm defending the correct understanding of history. This perspective applies to any national leader or historical event. To think that WWII and the Holocaust took place because Hitler was crazy (which also means that if he wasn't then none of it would have happened), is just a gross oversimplification of a highly complex scenario. Cambalachero (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Even the most decidedly "big factors" historian recognizes that individuals do matter, though, when they get into positions of great influence because of said big factors. A world without Hitler probably would have played out very differently than a world with him. It doesn't mean Hitler the individual was everything — he couldn't have gotten into the place he was without those "big factors" — but to underestimate the importance of powerful individuals is just as silly as thinking that history is composed of nothing but powerful individuals. Most practicing historians try to take a fairly balanced approach to these sorts of things. Sometimes individuals matter; sometimes they don't. I think Hitler is among the few who truly mattered. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Questions revealing attributes of Adolph Hitler

Is there a comprehensive list of attribute questions, such as Was Hitler insane? with single word or short phrase answers? --DeeperQA (talk) 05:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to imagine there could be. What do you count as comprehensive? Here's a start:

Was Hitler right-handed? Yes.

Did Hitler have a silly moustache? Yes.

Did Hitler like Wagner? Yes.

Did Hitler like dogs? Yes.

Did Hitler like Jews? No.

Did Hitler like mustard gas? No.

Did Hitler like World War I? No.

The humor in such a list draws from its silliness as a concept. You can type "Was Hitler" or "Did Hitler" into Google and see what other people have often asked when it "auto-suggests" based on popular searches (Was Hitler Jewish? Was Hitler gay? Was Hitler a vegetarian? Did Hitler have one testicle?), but that's about it. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

What are you saying? That Hitler Has Only Got One Ball? Or are we talking about Hitler's possible monorchism. ^Avic_ennasis @ 17:32, 12 Tishrei 5772 / 17:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hitler supposedly was a vegetarian, which some have used to ridicule vegetarianism. However, he was a vegetarian because it was easier on his system. So he at least made one good choice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Reference, please (for the claim that he was vegetarian because it was easier on his system)? And discrediting vegetarianism based on Hitler is like saying that toilets are evil because Hitler used one. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE See Adolf Hitler's vegetarianism. ^Avic_ennasis @ 17:36, 12 Tishrei 5772 / 17:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

We generally write things in sentences on Wikipedia. So if Hitler does not include evidence of delusions about his leadership skill and eugenics, sociopathy, and criminal murder, then please add them. They are not difficult to find in reliable secondary sources. 69.171.160.57 (talk) 15:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If we don't already have one (there wasn't the last time I checked), an article on Hitler's mental health and/or psychology would make for fascinating reading. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before that article gets made. We seem to have endless curiousity about Mr. Hitler; from his political and religious views, his directives, to his sexuality and celebration of his 50th birthday - not to mention his possible monorchism or his personal standard. We follow him all the way to his death and the concerns of his Last will and testament. We even look for people based on their connection to Hitler; of course there is Adolf Hitler's father and Adolf Hitler's mother, but we also are concerned about Adolf Hitler's driver and even Adolf Hitler's dog. ^Avic_ennasis @ 17:55, 12 Tishrei 5772 / 17:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Picasso/La Pasionaria

Did Picasso ever do any pictures of Dolores Ibarruri (La Pasionaria)? --superioridad ^(discusión) 03:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding putting Native Americans into a fictional work?

So I would like to write a fiction book about a boy who accidentally tampers with an ancient Native American burial ground, causing him to summon a spirit who casts him a spell to remain 10 years old for the next 90 years.

Someone suggested that "you would tick off the Native Americans like you have never seen!"

So how about if I put down the name of a tribe that never existed ("Yuthoda" tribe) or a tribe that no longer exists (Yahi tribe)? I understand that the Comanche tribe could get ticked at involving them in a fictional work, but will I be safe if I involve a tribe that no longer is, or has never been, around?

Also, if any author is to involve a real-world Indian tribe in any fiction book, how can they go about it so as not to grab their ire? --70.179.174.63 (talk) 04:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Try researching actual Native American beliefs, and representing them accurately and not doing the Scooby Doo version? This would go a long way. Heiro 04:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

This is probably a good idea regardless. Even if you do go the route of making up a fictional "extinct tribe", it would probably still be a good idea to make it as close as possible to a local tribe. For believability reasons if nothing else.

I'm not sure if it completely addresses 70.179's concerns though. I doubt many actual tribes went around cursing people to stay ten years old for ninety years.

You might just have to live with the fact that if you mention an ethnicity, you're going to piss some people off. Besides, you should be so lucky! Controversy never fails to sell books. APL (talk) 04:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to make up a tribe why not make up a whole people/civilization, or borrow one, say Atlantians, or the "Welsh Indians" of Madoc. Pfly (talk) 04:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

It'd be a bit of a stretch to have an Atlantian burial ground in North America. In fact, it'd be surprising to have an Atlantian burial ground above sea level! APL (talk) 14:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion the issue here is triteness more than anything. Obviously if you mention a real existing tribe, you will come across as at best ignorant and at worst a bigot. The real problem is that the "Indian Burial Ground" is about as tired a trope as you can get. Take a look at this. When this trope is used today it is almost always used in a tongue in cheek manner. It seems that this curse is just a device to allow the rest of the story to happen, so it could easily be changed without changing the rest of the story much. If I were you I'd come up with another way for the person to be stuck at 10 years old, something readers haven't seen hundreds of times. --Daniel 15:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

How about radiation? I think that has been used slightly less than burial ground curses. -- kainaw™ 16:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe mischievous aliens, that hasn't been done much either. Heiro 16:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Barthélémy Lauvergne

Who was Barthélémy Lauvergne and when was he in Hawaii?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

No article on him as of yet, but see this image file [40]. Heiro 05:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Republican baby boom in Northern Ireland?

Why don't the Catholics/Republicans start a massive natural reproduction campaign in Northern Ireland to achieve a Catholic majority and win an eventual reunification referendum? Catholics are currently 40% of the population and about half of those support a united Ireland, so that could be achieved in just a few generations. This strategy was successfully used by Albanians in Kosovo and is currently increasing the percentage of Haredim in Israel dramatically. --Belchman (talk) 11:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, that is sort happening by itself anyway. I think there is a silent understanding in UK politics that this is the longterm development, and that the status of N. Ireland will be renegotiated at some point. --Soman (talk) 11:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Why? Because it's rather expensive and a life-changing event to have a child. And unless you can get a large number of other people to do it simultaneously, it would be a colossal waste of time and effort. I suspect that most Catholics in Northern Ireland are not sufficiently bothered about independence to take such a drastic step, and as you correctly recognise not all Catholics support unification (I wonder, with Ireland's recent financial strife, if it is becoming less popular). By comparison, killing most of the Protestants would also be a way to achieve demographic goals, but few people are currently attempting this either. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

And what would stop Protestants from carrying out their own baby boom to counterbalance that of the Republicans? It's not as if Protestants/loyalists/Unionists lack reproductive organs - On the contrary!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Knowing them, I'm afraid that's exactly what they would do :-) --Belchman (talk) 12:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

There is another caveat: people emigrate too. And if the Catholic population in NI is economically weaker, they will emigrate more. Quest09 (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Soman is probably right: "Statisticians predict both communities will achieve close to parity in size... Some foresee an eventual Catholic majority (albeit slight). However, as of 2005 most statisticians predict that Protestants will continue to slightly outnumber Catholics in Northern Ireland as a whole for some time to come." This is from our Demography and politics of Northern Ireland article. This blog (which may not be unbiased), presents a mass of statistics and concludes "In simplistic terms, there are more Catholic mothers each year, and each of them will have more children than their Protestant sisters. In the long-term this will ensure that the Catholic proportion of births continues to increase, and the Protestant proportion to decline." Make of that what you will. This lengthy thesis supports the parity scenario. Alansplodge (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Incidence of rape among homosexuals

Has there ever been any studies into the rates/percentages of rape occurring amongst homosexuals living in homosexual communities? Specifically gays raping gays versus lesbians raping lesbians. Keep in mind this should not include prison rape which is usually perpetrated by heterosexuals. 198.151.130.133 (talk) 15:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If someone has sex with men, for me, he's at least bisexual, even if he do not identify as such. Quest09 (talk) 15:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

See Bisexuality, Homosexuality, Prison rape in the United States, Prison sexuality, Sexual orientation identity, Situational sexual behavior, Situational offender and Sexual orientation and then perhaps explain the relevence of your personal beliefs to the OP? Nil Einne (talk) 16:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Argh, read that all? No, I was not answering the question, but just putting a note on it. I don't want to get that deep into it. And yes, I know that there are Men who have sex with men and do not define as homosexual. But for me it's a logical impossibility. What you do is what you are, not what you believe you are. There are no heterosexual men raping men. In the same line, what would you say of a child rapist who is not a pederast? Quest09 (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Nothing wide-ranging, but see:

• Sexual Coercion among Gay Men, Bisexual Men and Takatāpui Tāne in Aotearoa/New Zealand (Fenaughty et al., 2006)
• Sexual Coercion in Gay/Lesbian Relationships: Descriptives and Gender Differences (Waldner-Haugrud & Gratch, 1997) (paywall)
• Battering Victimization Among a Probability-Based Sample of Men Who Have Sex With Men (Greenwood et al., 2002)

Note that in some of those, the perpetrators actually identify as heterosexual, particularly in cases of group rape. It's also a particularly difficult subject to delimit and study, as unlike heterosexual rapes, victims of same-sex rapes outside the context of intimate relationships can not often identify the orientation of the perpetrator with much confidence. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 16:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Time actually spent in combat

I distinctly remember reading somewhere a few years ago that conversely to the popular perception, most soldiers in the Second World War actually spent a large proportion of their active duty time waiting in foxholes, and most of the combat was usually limited to exchanging limited fire for short amounts of time, usually a few hours (compared to what video games show let's say). I believe that the said statement compared this to the past situation in Vietnam and the current one in Iraq, arguing that American soldiers in Iraq were more relied upon, and therefore more susceptible to combat fatigue as a result. Any ideas about a possible source? Raskolkhan (talk) 18:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)