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RfC complicated articles

(see Complicated articles)

Disregarding all the fighting that is going on, I believe it is quite clear what the main points are. 1) The question here is 'Is Wikipedia too complicated to be understood by most readers, and should something be done about it?'

Myself and Vanischenu are convinced that it is indeed the case; while J. Johnson (JJ) believes that it is not sufficient evidence yet to show that.

2) The other question to be addressed is 'What should be done about it?'

To this, my response has been very clearly to highlight the 'Simple English' wikipedia as a means to simplify matters and present article in a simple way. The counter-argument goes that most articles will be longer when they are in the Simple wiki, which may not necessarily simplify things. To which the counter-counter-argument goes that it shall happen only for a very specific section of technical articles, and the majority of the articles wil be much more readable that way.

3) Finally the last and the most clear cut question is 'How to highlight the Simple wikipedia, if at all?'

To this my personal stand is that there should be an infobox displaying the corresponding Simple Wiki articles [with the provision that the corresponding Simple wiki article be rated 'Good' or better]. [First proposal Withdrawn, seeing lack of support for the first proposal, and gravitation of support away from the other proposal] Inamos (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC) [reply]

An alternate solution, which other users have found much more acceptable, is to put 'Simple Wikipedia' at the top of the languages list, thus giving it some sort of highlight without being bothersome to the reader.

With this being said, I put the above question for a vote. Inamos (talk) 10:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1: No and no. 2: Nothing, because premise (#1) is not demonstrated. 3: Put at top of language links? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would answer the first question with a resounding No. To the second, logically, "nothing," and the third may be acceptable but having the language link position depend upon the article status (or quality) at another project seems a bad idea at the surface. --Nouniquenames 04:56, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose People who don't understand an article should do what I do when I encounter a technical article: read the lead and look at the pictures, if any. Pokajanje|Talk 23:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Why should we do so, if we have a better way (say, if there exists a good article in Simple). Also leads of most articles are not written in complete. Reading the lead of proposal for meta:Concise Wikipedia might be worthy; one of the reasons why it was proposed is that the leads of most of the articles are poorly written. And I don't think any Wikipedian would disagree with it. Then why should we force the readers to grasp information only from the lead and picts.···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 17:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (I think). Wikipedia has articles accessible to the general reader and detailed technical articles. There is benefit in both, so we should have both - i.e. have "Introduction to ..." and "Outline of ...", etc, articles, with hatnotes linking the two versions. Simple English Wikipedia is for younger audiences, language learners, etc, not for articles accessible to lay adult native speakers and we should not force it to be something it is not. If any content should be moved off Wikipedia it is the detailed, complicated articles but not only is that not necessary (WP:NOTPAPER), but I think it would actually do a disservice. Thryduulf (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are 4 million articles. Many of those are too complex, I agree, and should be simplified. I oppose to adding a link to the Simple English article. --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I am assuming this means "other than the link we already have"? How about listing the simple English link at the top of the language list, instead of burying it alphabetically as is done today? Quantum mechanics is in 89 languages, plus simple English, but right now simple is listed number 68 on the list. Apteva (talk) 22:11, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (as already said). Will be help both the readers and simplewp.···Vanischenu (alt) 08:24, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Partial support. I am against advertising simple English (s.EN) inside or attached to the article. Moving it to the top of the langauge list is OK, but let's limit this pole position to a certain period of time (1 year). However, I already use s.EN a lot when I want to get a quick understanding about a topic - because I am used to it and I know where to find it. Others will do so as soon as they discover it's advantages. So, in addition, I favor other ways of promoting s.EN: By applying for a promo-box on the WP:Homepage, mentioning it in tutorials and in talk pages as a adequate solution for the conflict complexity vs simplicity, etc. --Jesus Presley (talk) 22:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The Main Page already has the interwiki link for Simple English at the top via {{Main Page interwikis}}. Also Simple Wiktionary places English at the top of everything. (PB:I have already supported above using my alternate account from an open computer, please don't count me as another user)···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 16:58, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No and no, Overview if necessary, SE link first
    (1) No and no. Articles reach a level of detail determined (both more and less) by the contributing editors, and we should not interfere with such development.
    (2) For individual articles which appear to be too complex, any editor can create an overview section in addition to the even-shorter lead, which could itself have a main-article link with the desired simpler contents. (This is basically the same as the Introduction to virus comment from the original discussion).
    (3) I think placing the Simple English interwiki link first in the list is a very good idea and would support doing that in any case. No other emphasis or dependence on any perceived (probably contentious) relative quality of the articles is necessary.
    --Mirokado (talk) 18:29, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I brought this up independently at the Village pump's idea lab Possible hatnote linkage to Simple English versions of some general reference WP articles. I think that all of us need to keep in mind that most people who access Wikipedia are not editors, they are readers looking for information, and that some of those readers are either younger students or people for whom English is a second language. What editors notice all the time, most of our readers never even see. If the whole point of this encyclopedia project is to get information into the hands of the people, then what is the harm of providing some way of easily-accessing the basic Simple English Wikipedia article on a subject? I have to wonder how many readers actually notice all the Wiki-linkage on an article-page... Can anyone here tell me from memory where the Simple English linkage is over there among all those languages? I'll tell you...it's between Sinhalese and Slovenian. As I said at the idea lab, I've been keeping an eye on the Article Feedback for my Watchlisted articles and I can tell you that some of our readers are unable to fully grasp some of our general-interest articles, like maybe the ones about US Presidents or about other history subjects. I did do up a Simple English hatnote for Thomas Jefferson and did have one up at George Washington which looked like this. I think at the very least that the Simple English link should be moved up to the top of the languages or that using a hatnote to provide a link should be an accepted way to deal with some of our stated Article Feedback, so here are my thoughts on the numbered aspects of this RfC:
(1) & (2) Not sure there is an answerable question here, but I do not think that Wikipedia articles, in general, are too complicated for our readership in general. I think that some of our articles are too complex/too long/too whatever for some of the readers that look up those subjects, for instance, the Wikipedia article on George Washington. I would think that some of our readership arriving at that article are early-elementary schoolchildren or people from non English-speaking backgrounds who are trying to learn more about the first US President. How about we put out some form of a Simple English welcome mat to easily introduce them to the subject? They can then come back to the Wikipedia article for a more in-depth look if they wish.
(3) No to the infobox, Yes to at least moving Simple English up to the top of the languages list.Shearonink (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I take back my first two questions in an attempt to remove any biases against the question for the 3rd question [which the community takes very differently from the first two], which now stands as-

Should we have the Simple wikipedia at the top of the languages links?

Inamos (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Editor recruitment with TAFI

From User talk:Jimbo Wales:
We should use the Main Page for editor recruitment. There were only 12,633 new English Wikipedia editor registrations in September 2012, the least since 2005.

Jimbo, this went to the archives before you weighed in on it: Will you please support an experiment to place {{Today's article for improvement}} on the Main Page temporarily in order to judge the extent to which it may be an effective tool for editor recruitment? Please see WP:TAFI for more information. Paum89 (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I support this experiment. I'm back at work full-time on Monday, so I'll try to get involved a bit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:00, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Paum89... why don't you propose this at a relevant village pump and see if there is community support for such an addition? Resolute 19:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Paum89 (talk) 05:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The articles would have to be of fair quality already. We already have our best articles showcased, and you propose we add our worst. Pokajanje|Talk 00:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed; please see the history and nomination and voting for WP:TAFI nominees while it's been in the Community Portal. Paum89 (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not the very worst, by the way, just something well-suited for improvement by the median new editor. Paum89 (talk) 01:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, my vote would be support. Pokajanje|Talk 23:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This isn't about adding our "worst" articles so everyone can see how bad we are at what we do. This is to help combat the widely held view that everything that could possibly be written about already has been, and show that it is completely false. We are bringing to light the many "comment sense" articles that anyone on the world would have been able to write a stub (even a start article) for without much thought. We are giving people that rare chance that they havent had in a while - editing bad articles on a major topic that they know really well. These articles are out there, but noone ever thinks about them, or know that are in such a bad state. Often I want to edit an article but I have no idea what to edit... so I start researching for something that I might be interested in, and usually that takes so much effort out of me I just give up in the end. This proposal allows us to plonk the articles on the main page, and say "guess what? this is an awesome article that i'm sure you know lots about and may be interested in. an article which is need of a lot of help, and you probably didn't even know. Wanna work on it with awesome editors within our beloved wiki-community, just like you?" I can only see a win-win here. Stop thinking about the main page in terms of "ooo looky at all the awesome stuff us editors have done, read and be in awe".... we should always try to reinforce the fact that we are all a part of one big community who are working together to achieve something great. The dichotomy between editor and reader really has to be stopped, and i can see no better way than this to start us on the journey to a better Wikipedia.--Coin945 (talk) 16:30, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Wikipedia is by no means a complete source of information for every possible topic. Nor are Wikipedia articles completely unstratified. Making it easier and more obvious to improve Wikipedia would be a quantum leap for this encyclopedia, reducing our reputation in academia as a turd magnet in favor of greater fairness.
  • Comment - the main page is very heavily trafficked and even an hour of exposure could generate far more views than are needed. As this is rolled out this is something to consider - using random exposure of a dozen TAFI pages on the main page, instead of one a day. By the way if you want to encourage more editors you could display it opened in a special tiny preview window that showed the code and the rendered and invited them to improve the article. Apteva (talk) 05:40, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: How can we give this experiment more visibility? I for one really want to see the project on the main page.....--Coin945 (talk) 09:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
'support perfect replacement for ITN which needs oto go a as its highly subjective an d encourages recentism artiles to be created. Also give a bigger profile to the objective DYKLihaas (talk) 04:53, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I wish I would have known about this earlier. Back when I was trying to get the project opened, I probably would have hoped for more by now, but given how long it took to even get started, I guess something is better than nothing. It would be nice to see the project really take off and people actually start improving the articles chosen. AutomaticStrikeout 03:32, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ideally, articles for TAFI would be C-class; that way they're of a sufficient quality to be seen, but it's easy enough for a newbie to find something to improve. I wholeheartedly support both this, and "spinoff" TAFIs in various project areas (e.g., an NFL TAFI where the NFL Wiki-Project dedicates its resources and energy to a specified article or a Music TAFI where the Music Wiki-Project dedicates its resources and energy to a specified article, etc.) Go Phightins! 03:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Before this discussion gets wiped off the face of the earth and never seen or heard from again, once the bot comes along and removes it, should we take this to the main page talk page, or just get someone who has authority to edit the main page on it ASAP?--Coin945 (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: a lot of our concerns about Wikipedia focus on retention... but a far bigger problem is outreach. We've gotten most of the tech savvy nerds (myself included). Now we need to do more to reach out to other smart people who might not have considered how they could contribute. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Yes, yes, and once again yes. Great idea to help show people that there are still some "low-hanging fruit". Buggie111 (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Perfect way to get new editors to come together to give a helping hand to articles.
  • Support Great way to get editors to collaborate on a page. We shouldn't hide the fact that there is a lot of work to be done, to the contrary actually. C6541 (T↔C) 02:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Languages on sidebar

On the left hand side of any Wikipedia page, on the toolbar, there is a section devoted to interwiki links to other language versions of an article. I want to propose a small change to the mediawiki software wording here. At current it is simply named "Languages", which is rather ambiguous and vague name. I think that when somebody less experienced at Wikipedia, usually a reader or newbie, sees that and the links below it, that if they click it they can get the whole of Wikipedia translated into that language. I propose it is changed to something short but similar to "View this page in other languages". This clears up any confusion to what you may consider to be a very minor thing but could be very hard to get their head round for readers. Rcsprinter (talkin' to me?) @ 11:27, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"In other languages" would probably fit. But your solution does not solve the stated problem. I'm as likely to think I'll see a trasnslation of the EN page if we say "View this page in other languages" ... the operative problem being "this page". The interwiki link allows us to view the treatment of this subject in other languages. "Other language versions" might work. "Articles on other languages" also. But we're swapping brevity for perceived accuracy, which still might not be parsed by the user. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why not "Other languages"? Tony (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, in my toolbar it shows as "in other languages". Lectonar (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:20, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are you using any custom code that might be overriding the default? —David Levy 12:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I am aware of; but still, it shows "In other languages", even on this page here. Lectonar (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you have selected "en-GB - British English" as language at Special:Preferences. Then you see MediaWiki:Otherlanguages/en-gb instead of MediaWiki:Otherlanguages. en-gb is not recommended at the English Wikipedia. See Help:Preferences. The page history of MediaWiki:Otherlanguages shows some variation years ago but not since 2007. David Levy used the Simple English Wikipedia as reason for not saying "In other languages".[1] PrimeHunter (talk) 13:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that; I guess I must have chosen it when I started may account, some 7 years ago. Never had any problems, though. Cheers. Lectonar (talk) 13:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just harmonized MediaWiki:Otherlanguages/en-gb and MediaWiki:Otherlanguages/en-ca with MediaWiki:Otherlanguages.
If the British English and Canadian English options are to remain available, we should apply the various customizations (with changes in spelling/wording where appropriate). For the messages in which no English variety issues exist (presumably most), we could use redirects. —David Levy 17:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One of the Wikipedias is written in simple English. —David Levy 12:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep "Languages". Apart from linking to this subject in another language, it also links to the whole Wikipedia in that language (with "whole" admittedly being smaller than English). You stay in that language if you follow wikilinks there, use the search box, click the logo, and so on. "Languages" is brief and about as clear or open to misunderstanding as alternatives that are not ridiculously long. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep "Languages". Agree with PrimeHunter - it is ambiguous, but it's short and it won't take the reader long to find out what is meant once he actually follows the link... --Philosopher Let us reason together. 19:41, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We will have a huge language button on top right.
The WMF is developing a huge button that says "English" on the right corner, so readers will find the articles in other languages easily. --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note to keep archiving bot away. Rcsprinter (yak) @ 21:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Featured template

Like featured articles, featured lists, featured portals and such, I propose creating a "featured template". It will have a criteria, as does other featured processes, and there will be a nomination centre to nominate your templates, as done for other featured processes. I am interested in hearing people's thoughts! Thanks, TBrandley 18:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support as nominator. TBrandley 19:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. More love for templates! Choosing the criteria will be interesting, considering the incredible range of options. — Hex (❝?!❞) 19:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Featured content is meant to highlight WP's best work for our readers. Templates are back-end aspects that are generally invisible to our readers. There's also a far smaller set of editors that can comment on the quality of templates compared with images, lists, and articles which generally any editor can. --MASEM (t) 19:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What's wrong with having things internally featured? Which is what I understood the proposal to mean. Featuring templates to the outside world wouldn't make much sense. — Hex (❝?!❞) 19:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moral support But I have my concerns: featured content is intended to show the best of the encyclopedia, and templates are not encyclopedic content. Templates are part of the maintenance and navigation facilities of it. Although, the existece of featured portals makes me think that this could be a very good idea. — ΛΧΣ21™ 19:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I pretty much agree with Masem here. The featured processes are intended for content and I do not see why a reader would be interested in a template (a reader might be interested in the information the template holds in the context of the article the template appears in, but not in the actual page in template namespace). It would be like highlighting the footnote system used in a scientific paper, when actually the content of the paper is what matters. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 20:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why? I am not seeing the purpose here, so can you expand on what role you believe such a program would fill? I can't see any reason to support without a good rationale to go with it. Resolute 20:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Templates are uncool, and adding them as featured content won't help. To encourage template developers for their tough work, I'd prefer to award The Template Barnstar. --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Although the proposed featured process may be the same as others, template purpose is wholly different. Featured content is for the readers and readers don't read templates. Templates are navigational and informative guides -- back-end aspect, as Masem put it. They are neither unique in where they appear, nor are they presented on their own to the readers. Unless we modify what out featured content represents (and I, personally, don't think we should), I don't think featured status on templates should attempt to serve the same purpose. Highlighting good technical editor work can be done by numerous awards, as mentioned already. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Significant discussions, over the years: Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 May 5#Featured Template, Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2010 September 1#Featured Template, Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive P#Featured content according to namespaces, Wikipedia talk:Featured articles/Archive 4#How about "Featured templates"?, Template talk:Template-Class#Overhaul, and Portal talk:Featured content/Archive 2 (3 threads). —Quiddity (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Whilst searching for the list above, I found these template given as examples; or comments on their talkpages suggesting "if there were such a thing, this would be a Featured Template!": Template:Solar System, Template:IPA chart vowels, Template:USAF, Template:Islamic culture, Template:Cold War, Template:US War on Terror, [NOTE: these might be drastically different than when originally pointed at as exemplary...]. Just FYI/curiosity as to what might be nominated. —Quiddity (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per past discussion, and comments in this thread.
    However, two ways to recognize good template work:
    1. Use them as examples in help/guideline pages.
    2. Leave talkpage feedback/praise, and give barnstars to individuals.
HTH. —Quiddity (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. What is next, featured sentence, or featured word, or featured punctuation? Templates are simply internal features and not something that is ever going to be displayed on the main page as an example of Wikipedia's best work. Apteva (talk) 22:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Easy now. There's no good in mocking the idea. It's been suggested many times before, and has a reasonable basis. Templates are fundamentally distinct entities, that could be judged on a series of objective&subjective criteria. As the old discussions suggest, it's comparable to asking for a Featured Disambiguation Page, or Featured Category (and equally complicated, and unlikely to ever exist). Templates are not "simply [an] internal feature", they're (usually) part of a gigantic reader-facing topic-navigation-system (with exceptions in meta/parser templates and similar). Plus not all "Featured" items are displayed on the Main Page.
    Anyway, please be nice. Sugar vs vinegar, and all that. —Quiddity (talk) 01:27, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - We need less templates. Let's not glorify them. Ajraddatz (Talk) 02:20, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because a template is not content, it's a directory. —Torchiest talkedits 14:24, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A portal could be considered as a directory but yet it can be featured? --J36miles (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Seems like a good idea from an editor standpoint. --Nouniquenames 04:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Templates are utility or convenience tools for editors, not readers. The whole point of featured content is to show all the readers our best encyclopedic work, and only a few would be fascinated by a template with a ParserFunctions hack that performed string splitting. →Σσς. (Sigma) 02:54, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose only because it essentially discusses internal Wikipedia processes, and the first rule of fight club is don't talk about fight club. I'm reminded of a notion I (and others, probably) had years ago: Featured edit, in which some particularly high quality article improvement with edit summary is highlighted as Wikipedia best practice. Unfortunately, that's also fight club. --Lexein (talk) 03:35, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Since there are no major policy objections, why not just host a "featured templates" subpage in your userspace? Editors who are interested in the real technical side would be able to read it and contribute, and if it got popular enough, then, perhaps you could re-introduce it as a non-userspace suggestion (but I wouldn't hold your breath on it ever being a main-page section, as cool as I think that could be). — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 17:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think templates are useful, but trying to emphasize and promote them is a bad idea. Wikipedia is still about articles. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:34, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't get what could make a template featurable. They're pretty basic and we already have enough of them.--Astros4477 (talk) 20:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Templates have almost nothing separating each side of their spectrum. If anything, there's Wikipedia:Featured topics. Buggie111 (talk) 05:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Admin tenure

I know this has been said before, but to propose to that effect, instead of having unlimited admins without acountability, its best to give accountability to the transparent process of having admins orotated ever so many years. One such idea I would like to propose is a three-year tenure-ship with 1/3 of admins up for re-election every year. Its as transparent as the oft-quoted "benevolence" of [western] democracy. Keeps people more transparent knowing they have a constituency to report to and an election to face so as to prevent abuses of power. Perhaps 150-300 admins with 1/3 rotated. Other options are very welcome.Lihaas (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I support this, with the full knowledge that it will never happen. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:11, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Any idea how to put it to a wider vote?Lihaas (talk) 08:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll make it an RfC. AutomaticStrikeout 18:44, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An admirable goal. But it seems likely to raise logistical issues that you may want to address (if 1/3 are to be elected each time, how many admins would there be altogether? if the re-election is going to be meaningful, there would have to be lots of RfAs going on all the time, but isn't that process not seen as... super efficient?) AgnosticAphid talk 08:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC) Edit: Somehow I missed your suggestion of 150-300 admins. But right now there are 1,451 of them (WP:Admins). AgnosticAphid talk 08:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Didnt know how many there were. Perhaps we can keep it thereabout. For the first cycle, the oldest third can be elected and then move on for the first three year cycle. Alternatively a handful of active admins (active in admin work, not just active with edits here and there) can be longer/permanent with the rest in a regular electoral process as any nationalelection. The admin holds his views and questions at some page and then others can ask/read/see achievements/criticisms.Lihaas (talk) 09:18, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Switched to Support below. because I am not convinced that this will work. I believe this would create a way too complicated process for a volunteer project like Wikipedia. I've seen a number of experienced editors leave the project because of failed RfAs. Increasing the risk to lose more such editors through this process isn't something I am comfortable with. Also, it's not clear to me what problem this proposal is trying to fix. Is there really so much abuse of admin powers lately? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 09:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It gives admin authority uniaterally and is not accountable. ive seen numerous admins who take decisions without any consensus discussions (some of which are uncontroversial, but nevertheless a bad precedent). I dont think its harder than any election. As proposed above, even the RFA's would go and be more streamlined. This would have to happen since its rotated and not permanent. (hence the RFA's are arduous because the process for that permanent job has to be harder to weed out others). Knowing you have a set tenure will make one MORE accountable and open the process more.
Alternatively, we dont have to have a set number of, say, 500 to vote for each year. We could do more or less. And even have some 150 every 5 months or 50 a month (just throwing out ideas)Lihaas (talk) 09:18, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The principal idea. Now how is this process intended to work exactly? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 12:19, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to be per above and below. But any specific questions?Lihaas (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So does that mean any admin has his or her admin rights automatically removed after 3 years or am I misunderstanding this? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 19:07, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As as an admin, any idea how to get this wider discussion? We can refine certain aspects through discussion too.Lihaas (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I rather think a monthly election for 10-20 admins for 3-year terms will be fine. With terms less permanent, admin hopefuls will not require as stringent conditions, opening up the chances for newer hopefuls. Opposing the idea of having permanent admins. Even a permanent admin may not stay active after 3 years. If he does, then we can easily re-elect him. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question - Is there already a system for de-admining rogue/bad admins? This might help do something of that sort, and even in making the process better and easier TheOriginalSoni (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, there is WP:AOR which is voluntary (at the time of adminship) and WP:Desysopping which is reserved for extreme cases. AgnosticAphid talk 17:06, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, but its, as said above, on extreme circumstances and doesnt yield to much change (or accountability). We dont need to have term limits either as that could harm good admins staying on.Lihaas (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Good admins would still be good, and would have to ask for re-election every 3 years at the most. How would that be a major issue? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – It's just too likely that admins would face backlash for admin actions that they had taken during their term. This could result in admins being afraid to intervene in controversial situation because they know it would hurt their chance at re-election. AutomaticStrikeout 18:44, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - For a few reasons: (1) many admins are inactive, and they should be purged from the admin roles; (2) some admins are not really suited for the job, yet they were given the role back in the 2004-2006 heyday when the RfA process was less stringent; (3) a "admin for life" role is not consistent with WP philosophy. One third every three years? Or maybe 1/4 every four years? The exact period is not too important. --Noleander (talk) 19:00, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia needs admins who will firmly reject nonsense, but such admins accummulate a group of haters. Fixed tenure would guarantee that we lose the admins that are needed most since no sane person wants to waste time periodically rehashing settled cases with a group of disgruntled users. When challenged, supporters of previous proposals have been unable to show a case where periodically hazing admins would be beneficial—if an admin has made bad calls, raise the matter with evidence at a suitable noticeboard. It's possible there won't be much comment here since many people know that it is rarely productive to discuss rejected perennial proposals. Johnuniq (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is it just me or is 3 years actually a very short period of time in Wikipedia years? I think it is quite a long amount of time for any admin to be hazed or anything. [Ifyou feel otherwise, please do say].
I really doubt the validity of your statement that there have not been bad admins [If thats what you meant to say]. I am pretty sure they are plenty of cases of admins not being removed due to weak deAdmin policies. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:48, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This proposal is orthogonal to the real fix, which is to implement Jimbo's original idea that adminship "shouldn't be a big deal", but should be just normal for editors who've been around a while, understand what they're doing with the tools and when they shouldn't, and appear to be trustworthy. Instead RfA has become this huge deal about how many featured articles you've been involved in (it has never been clearly explained what that has to do with, say, evaluating the outcome of deletion discussions, or keeping one's personal feelings out of the choice to block an editor). How we get there from here, though, I have no idea. --Trovatore (talk) 23:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Wikipedia is not trying to resemble a democracy, and if we elect them once, we elect them to make good decisions without deadline. If an abuse arises, let the community do the appropriate action, not suck every sysop into this system that will just reduce the number of good sysops. ~~Ebe123~~ on the go! 01:46, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just because Wikipedia is not trying to be a democracy doesnt mean we try not to be a democracy. Thats very fallacious as a line of reasoning, as it implies we boycott anything that looks like democracy.
The main point of contention here is that wikipedia already elects admins [So its like a democracy already!] But admins can change [I am sure this question of tenure would not have arisen had almost all admins been as good or just or fair as they appeared to be when elected]. Sometimes they fail to have enough time to devote; and at other times the regulations surpass them [Reference to Noleander's comment there]. Plus, having a tenure and a stronger De-Adminship regulation implies Nobody is above the law- Admins will learn to be more responsible seeing the fact that they can be removed too. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:48, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per Dennis Brown and AutomaticStrikeout. This is not ArbCom; and also, if admins would have to be re-elected, they would face fear of performing their job as they must. This is not the right solution for bad admins, and will harm good ones more that giving them a bit of benefit. — ΛΧΣ21™ 16:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per AutomaticStrikeout. And frankly, there is no chance I would waste the time going through RFA again. Aside from creating a culture where admins may be afraid to act in the best interest of Wikipedia, you're only going to cause a large decrease in the number of admins available to complete the tasks. Hell, given the general tone at RFA these days, I suspect this proposal would create one of the most effective ways to drive editors away from Wikipedia entirely. Resolute 16:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It requires a rather large amount of bias to be a useful administrator. Some decisions are supper hard to make. I believe the spirit of the project wants dynamic rather than static admin bias. The only static bias should be the bias in the sources. This is the only type of opinion we should enforce indefinitely. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 19:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We have enough trouble recruiting administrators in the first place due to the mangled mess that RFA has become. Added to that, the only reason for removing administrative capability is abuse of the tools or other egregiously bad behavior. Arbitrarily doing so after a set period of time will do nothing for "accountability" that our existing processes do not already do. — Hex (❝?!❞) 20:03, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I'm overly ambitious but does that really work? Can you really argue that adminship should be permanent because Wikipedia can not recruit new administrators? 84.106.26.81 (talk) 20:14, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per AutomaticStrikeout. (Disclaimer; I am an admin.) And, to the anon: This would create a "world" where admins would want to do what is popular among those who shout their opinions, rather than trying to do what is right, or even what is popular among editors. It might be reasonable if it would require a 2/3 !vote to desysop, with those who have been in direct conflict with the admin restricted from voting. I'd still lean against, but that would allow some protection from WP:GANG warfare. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this specific proposal per AutomaticStrikeout, but am not fundamentally opposed to the concept of some sort of admin accountability. Go Phightins! 03:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Like those before me, AutomaticStrikeout raises the exact point I believe is the killer in this. While I like the idea of limited terms, why not instigate something based on a period of inactivity. I.e. If an admin hasn't been active for ~12 months then they'll go through a process to keep the mop Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 16:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The Administrative approval process is often a mean-spirited, dysfunctional circus. What's needed aren't mass numbers of re-elections using the same nearly broken process but a more reliable method for the removal of the handful of "bad apples" from the Administrative barrel. Carrite (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support (I've not read all the material above) - I like the idea of removing the "lifetime appointment" for administrators (I am an admin myself). Maybe a middle ground could be something along the lines of this:
    a) Admins who have been inactive for 3 years would need to go through a re-vesting process if they want to become active administratively again.
    b) 1/3 of all admins would be "inspected" on a rotating 3 year cycle; that "inspection" would cover the a) point and would lead to a "suggested for re-vesting" set of admins. In other words, someone(s) could indicate that they think Admin XYZ should go through re-vesting -- I think a good number would be 5 'yeas' for re-vesting -- which would keep the number being formally reviewed low enough to be manageable and would cover those who might have been among the worst admins (whatever that really means) over the past 3 years.
    Maybe what should be done at this point is to start the looking now as year 1, but don't do anything until the next cycle - year 4; use year 1 only for observation, but start the real process in year 4. Year 1-3 would be the "calibration sprint" with things beginning for real Year 4. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think we should have a better way to deal with problem admins, and that having such a process would lessen the problems at RFA. That said, AutomaticStrikeout's point must be addressed by any process I would support, and this proposal does not. The self selection of RFA participants, and the rate of participation, means that a vocal minority would be able to have a disproportionate impact if they show up to get revenge on an admin they disagree with or that had taken action against them. Monty845 16:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT The point of this is exactly to cull the arduous and silly RFA process. It would be as such because its nota ligfelong thing. Itd be far more straightforward. And if somoene on the fring has an issue it would easily be undone (as does ANYI, ETC) . Why is that hard to understand? WP is local government? Sems that way. Stick to the high horse and oppose all and any change.Lihaas (talk) 17:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think your statement "WP is a local government" pretty much sums up the entire thing. That being said, we should also see what we can do to change RFA to make it a lot better and less 'arduous' TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative addition to proposal - Any outgoing Admins seeking re-election shall be allowed to continue their tenure following a 'scrutiny'. This scrutiny shall be a discussion of past actions of the admin, both positive and negative; and cumulate in a vote by the community. The admin shall be asked to step down only if 2/3rds [Maybe 2/3rd is too high; 1/2 may be better?] of the votes are against him. Otherwise he gets an extended tenure. Only the seats that fall vacant shall be open to election, with the top x successful candidates making the cut. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:34, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This way, we make sure a handful of people with a vengeance cannot go after an admin. All the same, if more than 2/3rd of the voters vote against him, we cannot really can them a handful. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:34, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative addition to addition to proposal - We can have a clause that only if the majority of a jury of 12 experienced admins find that the scrutiny is correct in asking for an admin to step down will the admin be asked to step down TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:34, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A high threshold for removing the bit, as opposed the the default 1/3rd at RFA does help address the vocal minority problem, it may also be worthwhile to consider a minimum participation level. If I knew that at least 100 editors and admins would participate in a discussion, I think a 50% threshold would be fine. However, if I thought that only 30 editors were going to show up, a 2/3rds in favor of removal would be more important. As for admin juries, I think there will rightfully be objections both to having the foxes guarding the henhouse, as well as to giving admins another role where they are special and above other experienced editors, which we should avoid whenever possible. Monty845 19:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The answer then looks easier. No vote can be decided on a non-Speedy closure without a minimum number of people voting in. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - A) Such a system would, as pointed out above, increase the likelihood of Wikipedia losing admins because they made difficult but correct choices which angered people; B) Inactive admins are already removed regularly so there is no reason to force the active ones to reconfirm; C) ArbCom can handle problematic admins far better than any elections; D) Having to face elections might tempt some admins to make popular but incorrect choices for the sake of remaining an admin. If you think that old, inactive admins who return after 3+ years should be re-scrutinized, then that's something that should be discussed as a chance to WP:INACTIVITY. Regards SoWhy 19:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. To the extent that any of the problems outlined by the proposer exist, this proposal wouldn't solve them. It would just cause more bureaucracy and more drama. Is an admin "controversial" because she edits in volatile topic areas, or because she genuinely abuses her powers? An admin could lose the tools in both instances under this proposal. Can we name one admin who was once good but started taking abusive actions because he served too long and thus started getting cocky? Such an admin would lose the tools, but so would many, many others who were still good admins. szyslak (t) 07:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Comment with Different Proposal. I originally read the proposal and supported it, but now I'm leaning opposed per AutomaticStrikeout's argument. As we also see in western democracy, politicians are scared of making major (and often necessary) decisions because they are concerned about their backlash in the next election, as many Americans know as we head towards this so-called "fiscal cliff" as a result. However, we need some sort of method for admin accountability beyond desysopping in voluntary or "extreme" cases, especially with how the RfA process has changed and will continue to change. I'd support an annual(?) opportunity for "proposed desysopping" by any user who wishes to desysop an admin (or admins willing to enter themselves). If it is clear the proposer of a desysopping is basing his claim on a legitimate admin action, then this proposal, by its nature, will be killed in the discussion and closed with the admin kept. The only questions now are who would be allowed to close such discussions, how often do we allow for "proposed desysoppings" (annually? quarterly? any time?), and, if they are not allowed at any time, for how long do proposers have to open a proposal (one week? two weeks? one month?) RedSoxFan2434 (talk) 22:32, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Anything that's likely to be another deterrent to new candidates is best not implemented. If our admins are performing reasonably well and not demonstrating any need to be sanctioned, why force them through another week of hell? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Though I mostly agree with the premises, this is not a solution, as I see it. We have some 600+ active admins. To keep such a number in a 4 year rotation election, we would elect 150 per year. Well.. it is hard to check some 20 candidates to the current ArbCom election, who would and how would we check some 300 candidates for 150 spots? Making it a continuous process would require starting a reconfirmation election about every 2 days. Double, or halve, the numbers accordingly if you consider that there are ~1400 admins (including inactive ones). not a pratical solution. I disagree with the seemingly main oppose argument: that admins would be pressed by the fear to dissatisfy the masses, aiming for re-election. Well... I agree they (we) probably would feel that pressure but the opposite possibility is worse: if you can keep a position of 'power' indefinitely even the mildest and better kind of human being is tempted to abuse. It happens in 'outside' world, it is even easier to happen in a 'virtual' world. I think accountability is surely very much important, I never looked much into Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct#Use of administrator privileges, but the concept is good. Does it work? - Nabla (talk) 00:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We need admins to block vandals, delete attack pages and several other things. We have a declining number of admins and this proposal would lose us many of them - including hundreds of uncontentious admins who use the tools too rarely to bother with reconfirmation but who collectively make a very important contribution. Also it would inevitably make RFA even harder for new candidates as the fewer admins we have the bigger a deal adminship becomes. There are problems with arrogance in the admin cadre - but the solution to that is to expand the admin cadre not to up its exclusivity factor. A longer version of this is at User:WereSpielChequers/RFA_reform#Periodic_reconfirmation. ϢereSpielChequers 16:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the tweet button?

Copied from Talk:Isner–Mahut match at the 2010 Wimbledon Championships -mattbuck (Talk) 22:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of those things I would link to on Twitter, therefore displaying Wikipedia's need for a tweet button.67.142.179.23 (talk) 21:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Use Twitter's official Share Bookmarklet to share any webpage, removing the need for code on every website. (see bookmarklet for more info) —Quiddity (talk) 22:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sharebox is a script that reorders your toolbox. It adds new buttons that make it easier to mail, print or share an article on Facebook, Twitter or another linksharing service. You must have an account to add Sharebox to the sidebar. See User:TheDJ/Sharebox for more information. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Worth noting that there's a rabid anti-Twitter anti-Facebook link button sentiment among a good number of people in the community. The Sharebox is as close as you're going to get, the community simply won't tolerate anything further. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:15, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But, don't ALL of those 8 communities have users that want to add links directly into the toolbox, and probably the 54 other links in the sublink, too....? (Sharebox uses code from addthis.com which offers 325 services from a single button!)
Also, why does every website that someone uses, need to independently implement these custom buttons, when a bookmarklet provides equal functionality but without the need for distracting-icons/additional-javascript/tracking-cookies...? Are people just unfamiliar with bookmarklets? You never need to scan a page, looking for the "share button"! It's always in your browser! Sincerely curious, —Quiddity (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because a lot of people are not technically savvy enough to use bookmarklets. They may seem easy to you, but that's from your perspective as a computer user with advanced skills. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:16, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rabid? Care to rethink that word? Some people simply recognize the damage that power tools for gossip can do, both to Wikipedia and to real living people. Hence wp:ELNO #10. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Putting links to posts on social media into articles is not the same thing as having a link to post articles to social media. Also, describing Twitter as a "power tool for gossip" is a gross underestimation of one of the most powerful information-sharing tools ever invented. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:14, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can get closer than share box. By rebuilding sharebox as an open sharing platform. That just takes a lot of time to develop. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NO, for the same reason you wont see youtube videos. There cant be any promotion of multinationals on Wikipedia. Not even if they would pay the 100 million such a deal would be worth. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 20:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is again a misunderstanding. There can't be an exclusive promotion of a multinational. See also the landing pages for ISBN and coordinates, which provide multiple options for these identifiers, including a.o. multiple multinationals. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


  • There's no need for a tweet button. Almost every browser has an add-on function to give users one-touch Twitter services. Or you can copy and paste the URL to Twitter yourself. Or you could use an App on your phone to send the article to Twitter. There's no need for a Wikipedia button doktorb wordsdeeds 11:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As the Doktor says, you can always cut and paste. The "rabid" opposition to these perennial proposals is not just the contempt many of our active users feel towards efforts to degrade Wikipedia from a reference work to a bastardized social media venue; but also a principled opposition to privileging some specific instance of social media at the expense of all competitors present and future. Why Facebook and not MySpace? Why Twitter and not some European or Chinese equivalent? We do not want to be lured into the trap of picking winner and losers among competing multi-billion-dollar multinational corporations. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, there is no reason why any such thing has to be exclusive. It is very well possible to program a solution that tailors to multiple outlets dynamically. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Wikipedia should help readers share the content. But social network buttons help them monitor traffic, and Wikipedia should prevent that. --NaBUru38 (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's only if you use THEIR buttons. There is however no reason to use their buttons, you can built your own. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If that's so, then I may agree with doing an extension that allows sharing. --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it problematic for social networks to monitor traffic to and from Wikipedia? There aren't any commercial services associated with Wikipedia that I know of (with the exception of some paid mobile apps to browse it, perhaps) but none of these are large enough of a threat to our independence to waste time in making a new framework rather than integrating with the existing one. Wer900 • talk • coordinationconsensus defined 02:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia's privacy policy indicates that IP addresses of logged-in users and the pages that any particular person reads are not revealed except in limited circumstances. Having a web bug on each page that allows Facebook et al. to record that information is a violation of that. Anomie⚔ 13:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your interpretation of the privacy policy leads to one believing that running the services Facebook et al. at the same time as Wikipedia would be a breach of the privacy policy. It's not, and putting Facebook buttons on Wikipedia entails the exact same thing. We wouldn't want to be in a legal gray area, though, and I will concede that to you.
In any case, it's possible to block analytics from other websites with the addthis.com engine, apparently. This should suit your interpretation of the privacy policy if "no analytics" means what I think it does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wer900 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi strawman! I never said that someone cannot have Facebook and Wikipedia open in two different tabs. Or even that anyone may not install a user script for their own account that adds links to Facebook, Twitter, and so on. All I said is that we cannot add these links for anyone who has not specifically opted in (e.g. by adding User:TheDJ/Sharebox to their common.js, or by enabling a Sharebox gadget should one be created) if these links make any accesses to non-WMF sites until explicitly clicked by the user. Even addthis with "no analytics" is still providing a wealth of information to addthis. Anomie⚔ 04:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm actually kind of soft on this. I'm not for promoting multinationals. But we may as well make it easier for users to promote Wikipedia, even if multinationals are involved. Even as the 5th largest website, I don't think we make it friendly enough for readers to share, and reach the widest possible audience. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is completely true. By 84.106.26.81's definition of "supporting multinationals", even being listed on Google would could as "supporting multinationals." Wikipedia's extreme conservatism and lack of pragmatism in ensuring the survival and renewal of its editing community will be its undoing if it is not resolved. Adding links to Twitter, Facebook, and other recognized social networks (without payment to or receipt of funds from the companies) will, far from selling Wikipedia to multinationals and being the beginning of the end for an open and unbiased encyclopedia, will enliven this project and lead to a new renaissance, attracting an entirely new editing community. Wer900 • talk • coordinationconsensus defined 02:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • See WP:PEREN#Share pages on Facebook, Twitter etc.. While "share" and "tweet" buttons would be useful and convenient for many users, there are several complications to using them on Wikipedia. For example, we are and ought to be entirely non-commercial with no outside affiliations or endorsements. A link with the logo for Facebook, Twitter, or any other outside site could give the impression that Wikipedia and/or the Foundation endorse or are affiliated with these sites, and/or vice versa, regardless of whether this is the case. How about this: We could add a drop-down "Share" menu that would list sites/services alphabetically with no corporate logos, colors, or other such identifying marks. This may be something to keep in mind the next time we change our interface. szyslak (t) 08:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deprecetation of the {{peacock}} template?

Hey, I was just thinking that the {{peacock}} template should be deprecated because it basically means the same thing as the {{advert}} template. Articles that are written like an advertisement usually contain wording that merely promotes the subject without imparting identifiable information (which is what Wikipedia's "peacock" policy means). So, instead of the {{advert}} template looking like this:

It should look like this:

Hope to hear from you guys! Interlude 65 17:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting idea. It does leave {{peacock-inline}} without a "parent", as {{advert-inline}} doesn't make any sense. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right, we should keep {{peacock-inline}} because it will be needed so that editors can place it in the specific points in articles where there are peacock terms. The new {{advert}} will let other editors know that the article is written like an advertisement and contains peacock terms. Therefore, they will start looking for areas in the article with the {{peacock-inline}} tag and start doing their work. Interlude 65 21:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps {{puffery}} should be repurposed to mean the same thing; it's unlikely that most people adding the tag are solely referring to WP:Wikipuffery. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:09, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the {{puffery}} template should also be deprecated; it pretty much means the same thing as the {{advert}} and {{peacock}} templates. Interlude 65 21:56, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Interlude. YellowPegasus (talk • contribs) 16:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree Support. Maybe a parameter can be added to the {{advert}} template to specify how the article disqualifies, thus hinting to peacock terms, puffery and/or actual advert articles written by affiliates with the subject.
  • Oppose whilst there is an overlap it is not complete. It is certainly possible for fans to write an article using peacock terms without the article itself being spam - there may in fact be nothing connected that is commercially traded. we have two groups of editors here, those who deliberatly or otherwise are trying to use Wikipedia as free advertising, and those who haven't yet grasped NPOV. Having different templates enables us to communicate the appropriate messages to those two distinct groups of people. Also the proposed composite template is significantly longer and therefore more intrusive. ϢereSpielChequers 16:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe a rewrite of the "peacock" template is in order; there is lots of "peacock" language which isn't strictly advertising. Maybe some alternate wording would help rather than deprecation. --Jayron32 16:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Agree with WereSpielChequers on this on. Articles by fans can be written with a lot of peacockery without any real intention of advertising. And adverts can be written with no peacockery. I think both templates serve a specific role, and when they do overlap, just using advert is fine. Puffery on the other hand seems like the blend of the two and probably can be deprecated. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 17:42, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Idea for Wikipedia Community - Create an Interactive Map of Human History

Wiki info@ told me to post here as they don't answer direct emails (understandable) so here it goes...


I'm reaching out to you all as you're the pioneers and now experts of open-source information sharing/building... and this idea would need massive effort (probably help from Google, Apple or another tech company). I'm starting with you all as I hope, if the idea has any merit, I'll have a better chance of generating some interest, than the 100's or 1000's of people working on countless other things over at the tech development companies. So the idea...


The Human History Project The shortest way I can describe it would be a completely interactive map of the world that would display the history of recorded human events. It would have a sliding time bar that would move forwards and backwards in recorded history. Depending on the level of detail (and I propose that detail be ALL history) this would almost be like mapping the human history genome. It's such a massive project I think it would need to be broken down into stages...

Stage 1 - I'm thinking of a fairly simple interactive Google Maps program. The default map would be today's world, today's political/national borders with a timeline at the bottom of the screen. The user would be able to control the timeline, drag it from today back to the origins of history. Maybe for stage 1, the timeline is set at every hundred years... or on significant shifts of national borders (major wars of expansion). On the global scale the map would be almost a blur as tribes become city states and then kingdoms and eventually empires and nations. It might look like this, but with the whole world and dating back to the origins of time and the user has full control over the timeline, able to move it forward and backwards - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievGPT-FaSY


Stage 2 - You can zoom in to any continent, region, all the way down to individual city states or tribal lands. This is where the map/global/tool really takes off... and will need an immense amount of help and coordination between programming and history/archaeology folks. This will add a lot of detail. The controllable timeline will also need to be reduced from 100's of years to something closer to 5-10 years.


Stage 3 - (final stages begin, incredible complexity) Much deeper... now that you've zoomed into very very minute areas, there are date-stamped articles on all of the major historical events of the time/geography.... EVERYTHING. The timeline is now reduced down to days (would work on a changeable scale in case you just want major events. You can set the time slide-bar to days and then see "Declaration of Independence Signed" pop up on July 4, 1776 and it links several article (Wikipedia, academic sites, books, etc) all on the subject... move it forward and you get all of the battles of the War of Independence. Move forward to 1885, say April 15th and you see a flag pop up saying Lincoln was assassinated. Now extrapolate this detail to all over the world. Every nation, kingdom, city state that ever existed. Everywhere. The Map would be offering up flags practically every day in recorded history, and everywhere. This could also work to show a very different or unique view of human history. For example... the user moves the timeline forward and sees that China develops gunpowder around 800 AD, at the same time Charlemagne has united France and expanded its borders to include all of modern day Italy... and Teotihuacan, a once proud, powerful and perhaps the most influential city state in Americas, mysteriously falls or fades away (and rises again as the heart of the Aztec empire).

This would add very different perspective all historical events.


Stage 4 – (Massive, possibly impossible detail... but never doubt open source, right?) You can zoom in on individual cities. The timeline now links to the significant news of the each date, perhaps citing or linking to scanned/archived newspapers for that particular city (or whatever recorded information that was the accepted historical record for that location at that time). This might be a pipedream (probably is)… but with an open source project, shoot for impossible and end up with something like Wikipedia, the most comprehensive, evolving and updating encyclopedia in human history. This project would be putting the information that we already have into full motion and making it geographically relevant and increasing its accessibility in a whole new way.

This could also, potentially, make every history text book ever written obsolete (if Wiki hasn't done that already).


So that's the rough sketch. I'm not expecting a response, but I figured I'd shoot for the moon here. I'd be happy to just to see if something like this is already in the works. Keep up the great work and thank you for your time.

-Hokie200proof

An interesting idea. If I understand correctly, the map could feature modern topography and political divisions, which would then be replaced by more historic boundaries as one moves a timeline slider backward? It would certainly be ambitious, and I am not sure if the WP community will be quick to respond, but it is truly an interesting idea for a project. A collaborative effort between WP and Google would be rather fascinating to see. By the way, if you are a user, I'd suggest signing using four WP:tildes, which is standard. Thanks for your ideas. dci | TALK 00:14, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's definitely a future many people are working towards. Filter all knowledge, by the Five Ws. Sliders for scale and depth. Connections to everything, with a smooth zoom to each new piece of the puzzle. Infinite canvas, plus map(s). Toggleable layers, for everything.
I know of a few projects including: mw:Extension:WikiTimeLine, Data Visualization Gallery, BBC British history, Oregon Historical Society Timeweb, BBC A History of the World, timemaps, Timeline Tool 2.0 , Web History Timeline (uses timeline JS I believe), dipity, timeglider, Knowledge Web, hyperhistory, Google corporate timeline, A History of the World in 100 Seconds (which uses data from Wikipedia), and more.
Wikidata will probably be a core component, of whatever this community works towards.
I would love to see more listed and/or summarized, and to know what is currently the state-of-the-art? —Quiddity (talk) 08:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any other/related projects, that anyone can point us towards? Is there a commonname, or a distinct set of keywords, for this Map+Timeline+Database style of project? –Quiddity (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Javascript alternative to attention-getting blocks

Hi, all, after reading this ANI thread, I started wondering why we don't have an alternative to attention-getting blocks. The first thing that I thought of as a way to address this would be a standardized bit of Javascript that could be inserted into the problematic user's common.js page. The current talk banner, while very noticeable to me, might not be so noticeable if someone doesn't know to pay attention to it, and I wonder if either a larger banner (perhaps something with "position:fixed") or a popup like alert() might do the trick a bit better. The idea would be that, when there's a disruptive but possibly good-faith editor who's not responding to their talk page, an admin could try adding this Javascript to their common.js page instead of blocking them, and removing it once the user's acknowledged the talk page. I feel that this would be a better, less bitey alternative to blocking, as it seems like many new users interpret blocks negatively, as evidenced by calling them "bans" (only anecdotal evidence for that, but there are probably diffs for it, if needed). Obviously this wouldn't be a bulletproof solution: it fails for anyone who has Javascript disabled, and there are some editors who would ignore the talk page even if they knew it was there. But I think it could be worth a try. Thoughts? Has anything like this been tried before? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support it's a bit awkward, but better than a block in this case (I've done some of these before, but feel awful every time). --Rschen7754 20:23, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree completely with Rschen's comments. I won't hesitate to block if necessary, but I'd welcome another alternative, especially in cases such as "this ANI thread" in which someone's apparently editing disruptively but in good faith. Is there a way to implement this idea for all skins simultaneously? I vaguely remember that both JS and CSS only work with a single skin; if you created User:Nyttend/vector.js, I wouldn't get it because I use Monobook. Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    common.js will work with all skins. --Rschen7754 20:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    (e/c) Beat me to it. And for what it's worth, I agree with Rschen's assessment as well; awkward as hell, but better than what we have now. Open to any and all suggestions for improvements. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    If we go with this idea, my first suggestion for improvement is that someone with much more ability than I write up a basic piece of code with "Insert your message here", since I'd have no clue how to implement this. Nyttend (talk) 23:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I already have a few ideas; I'll do some coding. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree as well (as a proposer of an attention-getting short block which unfortunately in this case was substituted by an indefinite duration block).--Ymblanter (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Would be a useful step in the right direction, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Anything that makes it easier to tell the difference between incompetence and bad faith is enormously useful. Who hasn't seen a new user, say, file an unblock request on the grounds that "my employer has given me permission to write this," or contest a deletion because "It's true, and you have tons of other articles about bands." We make these very clear explanations to post on their talk pages, but then we often never find out if they even read them. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 20:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. When I make them, I rationalise attention-getting blocks by saying to myself "I'm just protecting the encyclopaedia from further disruption" but I know it's sophistry. This would be a welcome addition, increasing our ability to respond flexibly. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:12, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would personally be nervous about using a user's .js pages in this fashion. Besides, it is not failproof; some people turn their JS off in their browser settings. --Izno (talk) 00:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I wasn't really sure what people would think about editing others' .js pages. It doesn't really bother me particularly, and it certainly makes me less nervous than, y'know, blocking people, but I see where you're coming from. Your second point is an acknowledged flaw, but keep in mind, this isn't supposed to be a barrier for them editing or a replacement for blocking them; my thought is that we can try this first, and if they still don't respond, whether it's because they have JS turned off or they're just deliberately ignoring, then we block them as we would've anyway, and we're no worse off than we have before. I feel like this would give us an alternative to blocking a good chunk of the time, and for the rest, we can still block and we're no worse off. Some positive for little real negative. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:58, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thought (though I still wholeheartedly support this). Just spitballing here, but what about some sort of semi-block that would require users to respond to their messages before editing. This would have to be on the MediaWiki end, obviously, but the way I see it, it would be kind of like pending changes protection, but for blocks - the good-faith version of an anti-bad-faith-editor remedy. The reason I propose this is that it a) could be applied to all users, not just most of them, and b) could have an automated turnoff: The server would unblock the editor as soon as they edited their own talk page, and if their response was something like "fuck you" or "what does this mean," then it would actually be more clear that they were either editing in bad faith (in the first case) or too incompetent to "get it" (in the second case). — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 00:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The downside of that, of course, is that it takes dev resources. A good idea, but a bit heavyweight for what is probably an uncommon case. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:58, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm thinking of throwing up a few test cases on http://test.wikipedia.org and seeing what happens. --Rschen7754 01:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Questions about the code. Is it possible to have this JS affect pages whose URLs include &action=edit but not other pages? Building off Writ Keeper, would it be possible to exclude user talk pages (not just the talk page for the user viewing the JS, but other users') from the code? And finally, would it be possible for the JS code to work like the SOPA protest thing, i.e. covering the content of the page and leaving a "Please look at your talk page" message? If we can say "yes" to all of the questions, we might basically be able to prevent (not just discourage) these users from editing problematically without impacting their ability to read pages. Nyttend (talk) 04:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe at least the last two are possible if we get a hold of the SOPA blackout code. --Rschen7754 04:46, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes (there is a Javascript variable wgAction that is the same as the action URL parameter), yes (wgNamespaceNumber == 3 to allow all user talk edits, or wgTitle == "User talk:" + wgUserName) and yes (some annoying ads fall into this category; I have no idea as to how this is done). b:MediaWiki Developer's Handbook/Add JavaScript/Predefined variables gives more information about these variables. MER-C 05:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Might also be a good idea to exclude pages with the prefix "Wikipedia:Administrators' Noticeboard/", "Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' Noticeboard/", and "Wikipedia:Village pump", in addition to user talkspace. In any case of admin error, or worse, abuse (though I'm aware that doesn't happen often), you'd need to be able to ask to be un-semiblocked (or whatever it'd be called), or complain if necessary. Also, if we want to make it impossible to get around, it wouldn't hurt to switch the common.js pages from permanently protected to fully protect when deploying it (the difference being that the user wouldn't be able to edit it themselves)... is that possible? — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 05:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Protection of the common.js page is kind of pointless; if the user knows enough to go there to remove it, then A) we probably shouldn't be using this on them in the first place, and B) they'll probably know enough to just disable Javascript in their browser, which we can't circumvent. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 06:35, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • If the screen stops all editing then that won't happen. Plus, we can use the above variables to stop it from happening. MER-C 08:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • For clarity, I meant disabling Javascript through the browser, not through Wikipedia; we can't do anything about that. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added the logic to suppress the injection on a user's talk page. --Rschen7754 05:41, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support Francophonie's idea, but only if it be possible without a ton of work that would impair usability too much. I doubt that we'd need to change the protection on these commons.js pages, since users who haven't started to use talk pages are extremely unlikely to understand .js page properties. Look at me; I've been here for six years and don't yet understand them :-) Nyttend (talk) 06:31, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for the above reasons given. Make it take up the entire screen and make the only way to dismiss the message is to go to the user talk page. MER-C 05:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - If multiple messages on the user talk page go ignored or unseen (such as the case in the linked ANI) then this seems like the best way of getting the users attention. I would suggest perhaps two levels. The first is automatically removed after the user visits their talk page and clicks a link (i.e. a banner over all mainspace pages with a link to their talk page where a button to remove the banner resides). That way it simply guides the user to their talk page, highlighting the efforts of other editors to contact them. If that fails then a second tier banner that requires an admin to manually remove. If the user ignores the first banner, the second can be deployed. The second should probably be more intrusive also as they have had a fair warning already. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 14:12, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Although I'd like it even better if we could create a floating editnotice for these people. One that would appear only for them on any mainspace page they'd try to edit. Or, we can resort to putting up an en with "Hey XXX!, Yeah, XXX!" "There are messages on your talk page. Go and respond to them, now! Else you run the risk of being blocked for an indefinite period of time." This editnotice could be colored purple with yellow polka-dots and jumping bunnies.Buggie111 (talk) 05:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I'm the one who started the ANI thread over one non-communicator, and asked if this attention-getting banner would be workable. I cover a number of areas that get a lot of non-native English speaking editors; speaking as someone who edits outside my native language too, your attention gets pretty focused on what you're immediately reading/typing, so noticing that small "messages" banner is probably even less intuitive for folks focused on parsing out a language. As Wikipedia continues to gain popularity in South Asia and in Africa in areas where English is a common second-language, a non-Bitey "shot across the bow" to gain the attention of well-meaning folks would be a useful tool. I'll also second the two-tier approach (will save admins a lot of time when tier 1 does the trick) as well as prominently featuring the username at the top of the warning. Formatting it to not look like spam or an ad pop-up should also be key in design. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: But just to be clear, this capability would be restricted to an admin level or above action, right? And also, if the link takes them to their user talk page, could it take them to the bottom of the page, or indicate somehow that they should respond at the bottom. Our whole top-to-bottom way of formatting threads is not all that common or intuitive to new users (at least, it wasn't to me at first). Ditch ∝ 17:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Editing other people's common.js pages requires admin permissions, so yes, only admins would have the technical ability to carry it out. And we could mention bottom posting briefly in the message, I suppose. We can make the link just go to the bottom section, that shouldn't be too bad. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cyberbullying

This is a topic that concerns me. I'm raising it here to see if the community will visit WIkipedia:Cyberbullying, an essay I created some time ago, but whose relevance has been re-emphasised by the Suicide of Amanda Todd. My purpose in raising it in this forum is to ask editors to read the essay, to massage it into a suitable shape for becoming a policy or at least a guideline, and to then formalise it as such.

It should be clear to all that, though I drafted it I am not wedded to any of the words or thoughts in it. I'm hoping very much to get it more exposure and to bring wiser eyes than mine to bear on the issue. Far better than feedback here is feedback and substantive editing there, though some messages here to keep this current for a while and prevent early archival would be useful. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it needs to be raised to the level of policy. Cyberbullying behavior is dealt with under our civility guidelines, and especially when it becomes personal attacks or persistent harassing behavior, we have plenty of admins willing to give out long blocks. Wikipedia is rare among general public websites in that it actually has capable enforcement to prevent cyberbullying. As an aside, if you want to talk about protecting children on Wikipedia, I recommend speaking with Alison, who feels quite strongly about the issue and is a rather powerful/influential member of the community. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think you may be missing some of the point. I am not particulalry interested in whether people are blocked, nor whether children on Wikipedia are protected. Those are matters handled very well elsewhere, and are a intersecting set with this issue. What concerns me is that people use Wikipedia to bully those who may or may not be editors here. I am happy to draw it to the attention of the user you suggest, and thank you for that suggestion. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Fiddle Faddle, the almost random enforcement of civility on Wikipedia does very little to absolutely nothing about the subtle issue of cyberbullying in general (unless its ridiculously obvious). Editors can almost always get away with bullying on Wikipedia as long as they do not use profane or offensive words. Admins typically advise bullied users to just ignore the abuse until it magically goes away. I do indeed think a policy is in order and I commend your efforts. Stay strong, I predict that you will be told by many, many people that your initiative in this regard is not needed. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is a difficult one. If folk have never seen the effects or experienced it for themselves, they tend to consider it a non topic. If they have seen it they are usually correctly horrified. The first camp is unable to handle the issue because it is alien to them. The second camp is often repulsed by it and can do nothing. The thing I hope people will understand is that Wikipedia can be used as a tool with which to bully people, people who are not even editors here. Blocking folk is fine as far as it goes, but that means nothing to the real victim, who doesn't care about our arcane processes for warning and eventually blocking someone for a few days, weeks or months. The victim is readying the rope and tying the noose. I am hoping for something concrete and constructive that cuts right to the heart of the matter, nips the perpetration in the bud in the real life of the perpetrator, and somehow gives comfort to the victim that something has been done and they are not helpless.
This stuff is subtle, insidious and really nasty. And we do not have, at present, any manner of being any good at handling the problem. "My" essay is wholly imperfect. Even when the community has worked on it it will be imperfect, but it will be a start. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 01:01, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fiddle Faddle, I'm confused by "people use Wikipedia to bully those who may or may not be editors here". How can you use WP to bully someone who's not a WP editor? "Willy on Wheels is a ____" won't have any effect simply because he's not here anymore. Not challenging what you say; I'm simply not sure what you mean. Nyttend (talk) 04:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let me attempt to clarify matters. I think we should set Willy on Wheels aside, though as a notorious piece of Wikipedia history.

Wikipedia is much used in education, often during lessons, as a tool to learn how to research, to use the internet wisely (unwisely?), and as a vehicle to learn how to create co-operatve projects. Homework is researched here despite our being 100% certain that we are not the end source for research. In short, kids use the site, and use it a lot.

We see edits here from time to time, sometimes during lessons, that victimise a particular named individual, the person I have styled in the essay as John Victim. We tend to revert them on sight, often issuing warnings, sometimes blocking the editor, usually IP only. That is good practice, but simply addresses the evidence of the bullying, for bullying it is, and not the outcome. We, sitting in our offices, studies bedrooms, living rooms, hotel rooms, as experienced (or inexperienced) WP editors, have absolutely no idea what is going in in John Victim's life, and can quite reasonably consider that we don't care. And we do not always have to care, nor do all of us have to care.

For those of us who care, whatever our reasons for caring, we need to know how to proceed, how to focus our care into a positive outcome. We need to know what we should do next when taking personal responsibility for acting, and at what point we should consider this to be, for example, a credible threat of personal harm and alert the WMF emergency email hotline.

Returning to John Victim, I hope the essay covers what his state of mind may or may not be. Reading the suicide of Amanda Todd one can see how cyberbullying plus her own actions and state of mind drove her to suicide. This makes me wonder if I've been able to explain how Wikipedia may be used for cyberbullying in this short answer to you. It's also not the talk pages that really concern me, but main article namespace with sniping attacks, even ones that are removed fast, perhaps even removed by the person placing them. I'm not unduly concerned about protecting editors here. We have things that do that job. I'm concerned about how material placed here affects those not here.

There is a similarity with Biographies of Living Persons, an area where we are fast, at least in theory, to remove potential libels. But we remove those from articles about the living person. There we have done our job by doing so. But, when someone attacks John Victim in (say) an article about a school chemistry project relevant topic, we have no way of following through.

I'm clear that every editor will not want to follow through, too. This is for those who see the need to follow through, or choose to make it their part time duty. The great majority of our folk here have no interest at all in such matters.

Have I come anywhere near answering your question? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 10:04, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have; I previously thought you meant schoolchildren who were editing. Basically, Jane Victim writes "John Victim is a ___" on some random page (although more likely the article about the school or other thing nearby) and makes sure that it's seen by John or some of their mutual acquaintances before we remove it? I've not come across this very often, but at least once I've followed your advice and emailed the Whois institution. Perhaps we should note that Whoisn't always accurate, even when it comes to these matters; 137.86.162.138, which was the "at least once", is registered to the Wyoming Community College Commission, but it was actually a kid in elementary school. I'm leaning toward supporting what you're proposing. This type of bullying is definitely vandalism, and even if we ignore the real-life issues at stake (and I'm not suggesting that we should), we can view your proposal as a means of vandal-fighting. Meanwhile, I agree that we can perform a kind of public service by following your proposal. Just please don't attempt to have it made policy; we wouldn't have any good reason to penalise an editor who doesn't make such a report. Nyttend (talk) 14:30, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am unconcerned about the 'strength' of instrument we make it. I assume you would wish to aim for a guideline, since one must allow editors to walk away from a situation like this if that is what they prefer to do, and to walk away unworried by any feelings of some potential sanction against them for so doing. Such sanctions must not exist. Indeed, were they to exist they create their own climate for cyberbullying! Were this concept/process, call it what you will, to be some sort of level of mandatory then some of the joy goes out of being here and being part of this. I'd certainly hope we can elevate it beyond being a simple essay and the community can take ownership of it and create something even more appropriate than my initial work.
Yes, you have now a perfect understanding of an imperfect situation. And you see clearly that what we perceive as vandalism can easily be perceived by others as sufficient bullying to cause them to self harm. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There have been some extremely useful and sensitive edits made so far. Those who have read the initial draft are likely to find the current state somewhat altered and to their interest. It;s easy to see how, as the initial drafter, I had a reasonable idea but was standing far too close to it to bring it towards completion. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is good stuff. I support this discussion and this effort. I hope we will continue to make basic human dignity a cornerstone of all of our policies that touch on the lives of people, whether readers, editors, or neither.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I like this essay. We could add it to the welcome messages to guide editors away from writing articles that could cause problems like those described. I think it's a step forward from the {{BLP}} tags on the talk page. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think I would not shy away from writing articles that are relevant here under any circumstances, though I approve of your caution. The BLP area is well covered, and I think we do not need to add it to that area at all. The people who are the general target of cyberbullying are not usually notable enough to warrant articles. The bullying is almost a 'drive by attack' placed transiently in an article, usually removed on sight as vandalism by editors here, but potentially not before it has done damage. Nyttend has it very clear earlier in this thread. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I smell guideline creep. There are already Verifiability requirements for Biographies of Living People. There are already behavioral guidelines for harassment of other editors. There is already policy and strict enforcement for vandalistic and defamatory editing. We don't need to sit around a campfire and sing "Kumbaya" with a 3,000 word essay, these matters are already addressed and resolved under Wikipedia's vast set of guidelines and policies, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Timtrent, I must say I admire your patience with the missing the point of your essay by seemingly a good 50% of people that read it! As a minor side point, if it really is pushing 3000 words in length, it's probably more because I added to it my thoughts on possible problems with reacting to incidents in the way your original draft recommended. I'll try and add some brevity to my additions tonight, if I get chance.
I think your salient point is that we are treating things by default as "just run of the mill vandalism", that we should be treating by default as "could be cyber-bullying". (After all, "John is gay" added to a random page about photosynthesis or common U.S. civics topics is not covered by any current policy or guideline about "defamatory editing".) The implications of treating these things differently start with a possible impact on the workload of the oversight team, so I'll mention it to them as well.
I disagree with Carrite's opinion that all of this is currently "resolved" by existing policy and guideline, even if I have my doubts as to how exactly that should be fixed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think the only way to help those who miss the point is to exercise patience. They exemplify the fact that we 'live' in a protected bubble when editing Wikipedia on a regular basis. We shoot down vandalism on sight and think we have done the full job. And we may have! We remove BLP violations and have, probably done the full job. What we fail to look at is the real world implications of what happens here.
You have grasped the salient point. And your edits to the essay have, probably, improved it substantially. I think that is not for me to judge them, but I am grateful that the community is starting to own it rather than my mothering it. Now I can say I fathered it! Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have been known to revdelete some of the things you talk about if I feel it was a result of cyberbullying. Cyberbullying can be distinguished from the run of the mill "Foo is gay" sorts of vandalism. It often is posted over a string of pages that are related to one local area. I have doubts about if the examples that you posted fall under the OS policy and I have further doubts that it run of the mill vandalism is worth the extra effort of removing from public view. I do not think that we should alert schools unless there is a long term problem. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand where you are coming from, and I applaud your revdeletion of some of the things. I understand your thoughts on spotting a trend. Might you consider editing the essay to reflect this area?
The point in time when we should consider contacting a school is hard to determine. Thank you for pointing that out. Again, in the essay, might you consider adding the basis of your thinking for when the tipping point is reached? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, with the Fae case, cyberbullying pretty much became a legitimate, perhaps the most important tool of Wikipedia policy making. We give someone no slack at all for being taunted repeatedly and incessantly for their participation, and any attempt they make to preserve their privacy from the taunters is grounds for an indefinite ban. For most Wikipedia participants, the only useful advice to be given now is to zealously safeguard their anonymity - to abstain from campaigns for offices which by right belong to the bullies and their enablers, to avoid using free programs for access to resources like Highbeam, to spurn campaigns for donation or events like Wikimania, to strip EXIF data from all uploaded photos (even though this is grounds for deletion of anything controversial) and avoid uploads of anything too personal, etc.
Nonetheless, in the narrow context of school bullying, we can thwart a few threat models which do not have any political clout. For example, a school bully only needs to put up "XX XX is YY" type insults as vandalism in some backwater article, and people searching for that person's name will see it; mission accomplished. You could have an automated script look for the XX XX or even some of the more juvenile YYs that rarely come up in encyclopedic contexts. Wnt (talk) 15:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Fae case was more than deeply unpleasant. Our policies here are meant to protect people such as Fae and appeared not to in the smallest way. I;d like to leave that aside in this discussion, but only because we are meant to have ways of protecting editors such as Fae. So I feel it is out of scope here in many ways, though a useful example of what can go horribly wrong.
I like your approach with a BOT concept. Are you able to develop that and consider adding this good suggestion to the essay;s talk page in order that it is forever associated with the essay? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's not even remotely what the Fae...an abusive editor who got precisely what he deserved...case was about. Wnt is a vocal friend/supporter of Fae, and his take on the matter is about as slanted as one can get. Regular editors such as myself and many others who did not want to see LGBT themes in every obscure article they could get their hands on were the ones that needed protection. Tarc (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is why I want to leave it aside. Please let us stay on topic. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Er, you don't get to go off-topic and then demand others don't follow, I'm afraid, especially when blatant mistruths ("Fae needed to be protected from cyberbullies") are uttered. Tarc (talk) 22:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading through the essay, I don't think it is suitable to be a guideline in its current form. First, it is important to be clear that editors are expected to follow guidelines. While failing to follow a guideline is not likely to be immediately actionable as a user conduct issue, an editor who regularly fails to follow a guideline without good cause is going to criticized, and continued failure to follow it will likely end up being treated as an actionable user conduct issue. The second issue is that the essay provides insufficient guidance on what need not be treated as bullying. Cyberbullying can be a really bad thing, and can cause very real harm, but at the same time, I don't think it is reasonable to treat every act of vandalism that names an individual as a full on case of cyberbullying. There are I think 3 ways to handle that; first the essay could be changed to include factors to distinguish cyberbullying from ordinary vandalism, second the essay could not try to define cyberbullying and focus only on how to respond once an editor decides that conduct is cyberbullying using what ever metrics they judge appropriate, or third, it could remain an essay. An essay can still be extremely influential without being formally elevated to guideline. Monty845 18:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is valuable input, thank you. I'm open to all ideas that bring this to the community's attention and allow us to consider any action we take. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is really much ado about nothing. If an editor is harassing another editor, deal with it under the policies currently in place. Stop the instruction creep. Tarc (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm afraid it is painfully obvious that you failed to understand the topic under discussion. We already have sufficient processes to deal with the area about which you speak. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm afraid it is painfully obvious that you are crafting a solution in search of a problem. Tarc (talk) 22:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The thing is, there is a problem, though a relatively small one here in the global scheme of things compared with sites like Facebook. The problem is nothing to do with editors harassing other editors. That area we have processes to deal with. I don't mind if you don't get it, not at all. The problem I am looking at is the use of Wikipedia to bully or harass those not part of what one might loosely call 'the Wikipedia family' of editors. Now this is only important for those for whom it is important. Those who do not, can not or will not see the issue need be unconcerned because it will not affect them in any negative manner, nor require or cause them to do anything to which they are averse. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this is a case where the heart is in the right place, but I'm not sure that there is any means to enforce the process outlined in the page. Remember that Wikipedia is entirely run by volunteers. If a volunteer runs across an example you have listed as cyberbullying, we have no means to compel them to follow the procedure you have outlined. Are we going to sanction editors who simply revert and do nothing further? Again, what you describe may be an ideal way to handle the situation, but codifying it as guideline or policy implies that we expect editors to follow it unless then can explain specifically why they shouldn't, and I'm not sure that we can do that for something like this. --Jayron32 13:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would be most unhappy with compulsion of editors to do anything. What I hope to achieve is to give them a template which they may choose to follow, one that allows them the absolute freedom not to act, but shows them what to do and what to consider when acting. If making it a guideline, surely a loose definition in itself, compelled folk to act that would be a shame. I do not believe that it is mandatory to follow a guideline, since it is just that, a guideline. If it must remain as an essay, so be it. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • tiny edit to keep this ftom being archived for a few more days and to get more input. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:42, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notability across Languages

Has data ever been collected in regard to how notability is defined across different languages (therefore cultures)? There are many things that English speakers may consider notable but that other cultures may find insignificant, and vice versa. I'm intrigued to find out if this sort of information can be meaningfully collected, and if it would be in any way insightful.--Coin945 (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: E.g. if an article is deleted in one language, is it deleted across other langauges? Maybe they all go to AFD, but only some languages agree it should actually be deleted.--Coin945 (talk) 14:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • In my opinion (it would be useful to know if this is shared by Wikipedia policy or not), notability is not something which is limited by geography or language, in the same way that it is not limited by time. This gets to the reasoning behind there being language-specific wikipedias; is it because they differ based on notability of topics or to provide knowledge collection/dissemination portals which mate up with how we communicate with one another? "Wikipedia" refers to all of the language-specific 'pedias together, not to each language-specific one in isolation. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    However, each language Wikipedia has their own policies. While of course notability isn't defined by language, one language's Wikipedia may be stricter than another in the what it considers notable in the first place. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One example: Here, notability is defined by coverage in sources. In Wikipedia in Spanish, the discussions move to discuss if the subject "deserves" being notable or not (which is of course highly subjective, but that's the way things are done in there). In any case, remember that "notability" is ultimately a concept generated by wikipedia for wikipedia, watching but not taken from the real world out there, so the influence of regional cultures is relative. Cambalachero (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is there any collation of what constitutes notability in the different language-wikipedias? A gathering of that information might be quite useful + interesting. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only rule I think we can apply at en.wiki is that if a topic exists as a sourced-based notable topic - even if those sources aren't in English - we would consider it notable here since we don't discriminate based on the language of sources. --MASEM (t) 18:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tye--208.104.133.116 (talk) 01:45, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only case of deleting articles across the different-language Wikipedias, that I know of, is in the case of hoaxes and the like. Chris857 (talk) 03:36, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I recall having seen a few instances at Articles for Deletion in which, for example, an article on a Russian magician was deleted on notability grounds on Russian Wikipedia and this effectively triggered a successful challenge on the same basis for the same subject on English Wikipedia. This is not common, however, and the case starts fresh at En-WP — it is not a slam dunk for deletion. Carrite (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First thing Template:TOCLABEL:closed

Text

Second thing Template:TOCLABEL:open

Text

Third thing Template:TOCLABEL:reopened

Text

</nowiki>

which would render something like:

Contents (hide)

Wouldn't that be kind of handy? There would likely be all sorts of uses. The technique might need to be restricted to use outside article space only, though, I think. — Hex (❝?!❞) 15:59, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why you wouldn't just add the word/phrase if it's really that necessary.... --Izno (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Confused; isn't this why the TOC has numbers next to the section titles? Nyttend (talk) 23:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You say "Short of scrolling down the page there's no way to know what the status is of each item". Do you realize that you can click the section title in the TOC to jump there, and click back or ← Backspace to go back to the TOC? Maybe you just misused "scrolling". Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#toc shows an example of actually adding the status to the section title. <span style="display:none">...</span> can be used to achieve what you want, but it has some issues such as changing the anchor so section links from other pages may no longer work. And unlike your example, the whole title looks the same in the TOC. As an example I added a hidden "(open)" to this section title. It is displayed in the TOC. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi PrimeHunter. I've changed the word "scrolling" to "looking" above as it seems to have confused you. You've missed the whole point, which is that having to repeatedly go up and down the page is not a good use of one's time! Unfortunately your suggestion also doesn't work, because as you note it changes the anchors and so breaks linking. Thirdly, the labels are metadata, not part of the section title; they need to be visually distinct. Having them appear as part of the links will make the TOC harder to read, which contradicts the idea of this feature. Thanks though. — Hex (❝?!❞) 11:05, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Something like this might help at the 3RR noticeboard. We have headers like 'User:Smith reported by User:Jones (Result: )' which are helpful in checking for unclosed cases. As soon as you close the case, and change '(Result: )' to '(Result: 24h)' , you are changing the section header. Any section links you have used to draw attention to the complaint now don't work any more. For example 'WP:AN3#User:Smith reported by User:Jones (Result: )' becomes dead and just becomes a link to the top of the file. EdJohnston (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ed - yes, exactly! — Hex (❝?!❞) 11:05, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You use a preload to start sections there so you could generate the whole section title with a subst'ed template which inserts an anchor with the original title. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Change 'contributions' to 'edits'

'Contribution' is quite a subjective term. By definition, it refers to a role played by a person to produce a result. This means that edits such as vandalism and other disruptive activities are considered 'contributions', which fails to harmonise with the idea of a contribution being for the better to produce an outcome. Therefore the word contributions should be replaced with edits to reflect a more netural and objective term. Thus when using the user template, instead of saying Username (talk | contribs) it will say Username (talk | edits). And the 'User contributions' of an editor's page should be changed to 'User edits'. It's shorter, more neutral, more factual, and more consistent. Till 10:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maybe. Your arguments are pretty good but "contributions" has been around so long that I'd need think about whether I want to change it. Will editors feel subtly less appreciated? --Trovatore (talk) 10:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Contributions" includes page moves and page uploads too. -- Magioladitis (talk) 10:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • A page move (not sure what you mean by page upload) is still an edit. When an editor clicks on the 'edit' tab, they are 'editing' the page. They may leave an 'edit' summary, and can mark it as a minor 'edit', before finally saving the 'edits' they have made. Notice how they are not 'contribute', 'contribution summary' or 'minor contribution'. Till 10:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • File uploads and page protections are recorded under contributions. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • No they aren't. Page moves, uploads, etc. are under logs. Some appear in edits, but that's because you are making an edit to the page. Statυs (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: When I first started, I found "Contributions" to be a confusing term and wasn't quite sure how it worked. It took a long time to get the hang of it ad work out what it actually showed. Further suggestions are: "Talk" to "Talkpage", "Preferences" to "Settings", and "[Insert Username]" to "[Insert Username]'s Userpage.--Coin945 (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I don't think "edit" would include creating a new image or article in the mind of a newcomer. I also think the newcomer might not think of talk page contributions as edits. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • All those examples are still edits, regardless of thought. I would hardly consider vandalising articles to be a 'contribution' to the project. Till 23:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I have to agree. I don't think that this will end up going through, as there will be a lot of users who think that "what was should always be", but I'm leaving my support none-the-less. Statυs (talk) 15:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I personally think a lot of Wikipedia editors should take a peak at List of fallacies before they weigh in at these sorts of discussions. Major arguments always seem to be things like "flawed tradition is better than improved evolution" or "it may result in bad things despite the many good things it will cause so there's no use trying it at all". It's a shame to see editors sink so low...--Coin945 (talk) 16:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Naming fallacies is very rarely a constructive contribution to a discussion. Most of the time it's an attempt to frame one's own contingent beliefs about the world, or normative preferences, as a matter of logic. --Trovatore (talk) 20:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Status. YellowPegasus (talk • contribs) 16:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undecided - I can see the validity of the argument however I don't think all contributions are edits whereas all edits are contributions as they contribute another event to wikipedia (even negative contributions are contributions). Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 16:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • At Commons, "contributions" makes more sense than "edits". And we should use the same words in every project. --NaBUru38 (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be hard to do, given that most projects are in different languages. Commons is in English, but I note that Wikipedia changed "discussion" to "talk" not that long ago (six months? a year?) and Commons has not followed suit. --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As stated by nom, changing the owrd makes a lot more sense and is clear. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Isn't this a software, Mediawiki, issue? when I click history I see a list of Username (talk | contribs)‎, but that is not a template, that is the software. Euphemistically, a page blanking is a "contribution". Apteva (talk) 06:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes it is something that needs to get fixed software wise. Legoktm (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose You can make a negative contribution to something. Also Magioladitis is right, Special:Contributions shows more than just edits. Legoktm (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A wikimedia project for original works publication

As wikimedia doesn't provide yet a wiki to publish orginals works (essays, novels, songs, etc.) here is a proposal: Wikikultur. I hope some people here may be interested. --Psychoslave (talk) 16:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sounds awesome. I do think that Wikiculture is a better name though. I'd love to know more about the project.--Coin945 (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Wikreati" or "Wikreamus"? However, this project doesn't fit the definition of "educational content" that the Wikimedia Foundation requires. It should be a totally separate project, perhaps at Wikia. --NaBUru38 (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1000 DYK Medal

User: Dr Blofeld is about to pass this milestone. It deserves a suitable medal. Someone needs to design it, if they haven't already. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or the foundation could buy him a Lamborghini Aston Martin DB9. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Or something far more desirable, нет? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, depending on where and when, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. OTOH, these or those are becoming scarcer all the time, and might appeal to collectors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Template:The 1000 DYK Creation and Expansion Medal has existed since 2010‎. May not be fancy, but it exists. Chris857 (talk) 02:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo says he wouldn't mind your 1000th DYK being memorialized on the front page as its own DYK. See here. I'm sure some our DYK friends can make this happen. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What about a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport. --Ankit MaityTalkContribs 16:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"The Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is the fastest car of 2013." My word, that is fast, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comments: Establish standards for version history tables in software articles

I'd like to introduce the Template:Version template to Wikipedia with the goal to establish one standard for version history tables (or lists). It simplifies creation of release histories, standardizes release stages and makes the content more accessible.

Please comment on the template talk page (there already is some discussion). Thanks for your contribution. Jesus Presley (talk) 04:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed shortcut for disambiguation links

To link to the proper John Smith, we link, for example, to John Smith (explorer). But in a wikiarticle, we usually don't want the (explorer) to show, so we set the link to John Smith (explorer)|John Smith (all in double square brackets, of course). I suggest creating a notation of John Smith {explorer}, with curly brackets (braces), for use in the link instead. On display, the {...} part would not show, but on clicking the link, the reader would be directed to the proper John Smith (explorer) article.--BillFlis (talk) 13:50, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We already have the pipe trick where typing [[John Smith (explorer)|]] will save as [[John Smith (explorer)|John Smith]]. A new syntax in the saved text is unneeded and would cause confusion. It would require changes to the MediaWiki software and a large number of programs which process wikitext. Don't mess with compatibility without good reason. MediaWiki versions are powering thousands of other wikis than Wikipedia. Wikitext is often copied directly between them. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't now yet - very handy. Jesus Presley (talk) 16:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nice hack! Be sure I'll use it a lot now. Thanks! --NaBUru38 (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Concise wikipedia proposal

Made a proposal at here for a concise edition of wikipedia which is formatted much like an old book encyclopedia with the bare main facts and a smallish word limit for articles as a reference point. Can't imagine all would support, but any input from anybody would be warmly welcome. The idea is for a general reference which is consistently of similar short length and quality and providing the most important facts without having to scan huge articles to retrieve them as leads on articles are very inconsistent. Please discuss there rather than here. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm doing a Portal about car racing in the Spanish-language Wikipedia with 130 selected articles on drivers, 52 on teams, 52 on circuits, 52 on races and 26 on championships. The selections are concise (at least I tried). That could be useful. But I wouldn't do a separate project. I'd prefer the article introduction to play that role. --NaBUru38 (talk) 15:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anna Huberta Roggendorf

Perhaps a page could be created for this entry?

Gertrude Roggendorf, in religion, Sr. Anna Huberta, was born as the second of eight children July 31 1909 in the former mining town of Mechernich in the Eifel region of Germany bordering Belgium. At 17 she entered the Congregation of the Daughters of the Cross of Liège, a sisterhood founded by the Belgians Fr. Habet & Sr. Jean Haze. After a 2 years novitiate, Gertrude Roggendorf took her first vows, taking the name Anna Huberta in religion. For some time she worked in Münster, Westphalia, in a children's home. In 1932 Anna Huberta was sent to India at the age of 23. After her eternal vows in 1934, she was made head of the St. Catherine's Home, an orphanage for girls in Bombay, then completely rundown. St. Catherine's was founded by Ida Dickenson in 1922, but when she could no longer manage it, she handed it over to the Archbishop of Bombay, who called in the Daughters of the Cross of Liège in 1927 to manage the Home. The Home moved location several times until it found its present location on a plot of land donated in Andheri. Over several years, Anna Huberta built up the St. Catherine's Home from the grassroots into a caring home housing about 1,000 girls. To give orphans and foundlings a legal status, Anna Huberta adopted thousands of them. At the beginning of the 1940s, Anna Huberta delegated responsibility to the older children for the education of the younger children. Some of these girls approached Anna Huberta with the request to be formed into a religious congregation to help her with her work and to perpetuate her mission under the motto, "A life for love." On March 27, 1942 the first members took the vows forming the Society. The members of the Society trained as nurses and as healthcare volunteers. Sr Anna Huberta Roggendorf died of lung cancer on July 5, 1973 in Shraddha Vihar, the first Motherhouse of the Society in Bombay.

The Society of the Helpers of Mary, about 300 strong, operate several facilities worldwide, such as orphanages and homes for derelict and abandoned children, leprosy homes, homes for HIV victims, Aged Homes, etc.

In the Bombay Metropolitan Region, these include the "Ma Niketan" (Mother House) on Pokhran Road in Thane, built on land donated by Ms Diwaliben Mohanlal Mehta and the extensive Mukta Jeevan Ashram (Free Life) in Vehloli near Vashind.

http://www.helpersofmary.org http://www.maniketan.org

http://bartholomaeus.org/EN/Helpers_of_Mary_Historie.html

Consensus needed for TAP Bot's second task

All of the details can be found at the BRFA and I'm looking for consensus here on this task. Thanks. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Standardization of U.S. Supreme Court case articles

Hi. There's an ongoing discussion about standardizing U.S. Supreme Court case articles here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Supreme Court cases#Project's style guide and article standardization. Any and all are welcome to comment and collaborate on forming a style guide for U.S. Supreme Court case articles. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I tried advertising this discussion at Template:Centralized discussion, but the entry was rejected. If anyone knows of other places where this discussion should be advertised, please let me know or feel free to post there yourself!

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